Prepare to have your sexual worldview completely redefined as we dive into an exhilarating conversation about the transformative power of sexual fantasies.
Our fascinating guest is none other than Artemisia Devine, a former professional dominatrix and certified somatic sexologist.
Together, we unravel the deep-rooted significance of sexual fantasies, as well as their potential to fulfil psychological needs and enable profound connections.
Discover how these fantasies unlock a primal energy within us, promoting personal growth and creating a unique space for pleasure beyond the conventional concept of orgasm.
Artemisia's distinctive insights on the role of ego in shaping sexual fantasies will challenge your pre-existing notions, providing the roadmap to a deeper, grounded understanding of self.
This aspect of the exploration is essential as it facilitates a deeper connection by appeasing our ego, allowing us to let go of our guards and delve into the realm of self-revelation.
Lastly, we discuss Artemisia's unique method to bring these fantasies into reality in a consensual and beneficial way. By digging into the roots of our desires and fantasies, we can uncover a potent tool for personal development and self-discovery.
So, whether you're seeking to understand your fantasies better, or you're just intrigued by the spicy and unconventional, this episode is a must-listen. Come along and join us on this unique exploration of our turn-ons!
Connect with Artemisia de Vine: https://www.artemisiadevine.com/
Past episodes and show notes are located here: https://www.sexmoneyrage.com/podcast
"Genuinely thank you for creating this space for people like-minded to talk openly and feel OK to talk about these things." Beau, Australia
Disclaimer:
I do not promote trying plant medicine or psychedelics (they are a whole other beast). All information provided is for general information and educational purposes only. Please consult with your doctor and do your own research before diving in. There are risks involved, it can interact with certain medications, and it's illegal in most Western countries.
I'm not a doctor, therapist, or counsellor, and nothing said on the podcast is a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, treatment, or a professional therapeutic relationship. All content is intended to provide general health information for educational purposes only.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ellie Goode (00:04):
Welcome to the Sex Money and Rage podcast.
Artemisia de Vine (00:08):
They wanted to talk dirty to get there.
That is what works for them andthey think that's just how sex
is, and so they don't realisethat there's other ways of doing
things, especially if there'ssomebody who is used to taking
the lead in sex and maybe hashad to take the lead in sex all
the time And therefore they onlyfollow their own instinct.
They don't have much feedbackfrom somebody that they're with
(00:31):
And the other person's followingthe doubts.
They're leading the doubts, sothey're just going to follow
their own turn-ons, and thenthey don't ever really encounter
the wide variety of differentpaths that they can get there.
Ellie Goode (00:44):
Welcome back to Sex Money and Rage Rage.
I'm your host, ellie, and todayI interviewed Artemisia Devine.
It was an incredible episode,all about exploring sexual
fantasies and learning how to bein your body and also let go of
your mind, let go of your ego,through the lens of sexual
fantasies, which was superinteresting.
(01:06):
I learned so, so much from thisepisode.
It was super fun to interview.
Artemisia is incredible and hasa wealth of knowledge all about
sex and BDSM and sexualfantasies, so it was super
interesting to have thisconversation.
No matter who you are, nomatter where you are, no matter
what gender you are, i thinkyou're going to get a lot out of
this episode.
There's tons of really goodinformation, helpful information
(01:30):
about how to explore sexualfantasies in a whole new way And
what, what do they mean?
What are they, what are theysignaling to us in our bodies,
in our minds, and really pullingthat apart.
So that was super, super fun.
If you've been listening to SexMoney and Rage and you're
enjoying it, please go, leave afive star review, and if you're
not enjoying the podcast or youhate it, then feel free to stop
(01:51):
listening.
I will not tie you down andhold you here, unless you're
masochistic, in which case,welcome.
I also wanted to say a hugethank you to everyone who has
reached out and encouraged mewith the podcast and told me how
much you're enjoying theepisodes.
It honestly means so much to me, so thank you to all of you.
Please smash the five starreading or review button right
(02:13):
now, if you haven't already, andlet's jump in.
Today we have a superinteresting special guest,
adamija Devine, who is a formersex worker, professional
dominatrix and certified somaticsexologist who created tailored
experiences for thousands ofclients.
She was literally paid tobecome other people's sexual
fantasies And through this livedexperience she developed a
(02:36):
whole new theory about why wehave sexual fantasies and their
unexpected benefits.
Her unique perspective is beingenthusiastically received by
sexologists and therapists alike, many of whom have signed up
for sexual fantasy coachingthemselves.
She's now writing a book andteaches the divinery method,
which is both a philosophy and apractical set of tools for
(02:58):
accessing the counterintuitivevalue within our smuddy turn-ons
.
Her clients tend to beself-aware.
Intelligent people withintegrity who want to use the
erotic as a lens forself-discovery, have confidence
in the art of creating powerfulsensual sexual experiences that
access the full potential oftheir erotic beings.
(03:19):
So sounds so incredible.
I'm really excited to chattoday.
So, adamija, first of all,welcome, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much.
What got you interested insexual fantasies?
Artemisia de Vine (03:32):
To be honest, it is the responses that I got
from my clients that got mereally intrigued in the first
place when I was a sex workerand a professional dominatrix
When I first started I was not.
I didn't know what I was doing.
I thought I did.
Ellie Goode (03:50):
I didn't know what I was doing at all.
Artemisia de Vine (03:55):
I had been sex-skiing out for years already
.
Beforehand I'd read everythingI had had.
I was the kind of person wholiked to go out in the town by
herself and pick up a new personevery Saturday night and have
an experiment, and I had beendeliberately working through all
of my good girl-itis to get tomy own authentic sexual
(04:18):
expression for years before Istarted sex work.
So I thought you know, i knowwhat I'm doing, i know how this
thing works.
But being thrown in the deep end.
I tell you what Sex work is.
Definitely It sheds light onthe rest of society.
(04:39):
It's a concentrated form of whowe are.
So when you're encounteringthat number of people all at
once, like sometimes, you know,when I first started I didn't
know how to pace myself.
When I could see 10 people aday Too loud, i was like who am
I being?
(05:00):
And I was like who?
Ellie Goode (05:03):
can't just do this, that's amazing.
Artemisia de Vine (05:11):
Yeah, i learnt to pace myself, but when
I first started, i was onlyhaving a few minutes to speak to
someone on the phone.
Then they had just a fewpictures of me and a very brief
description of what I wasoffering, and then I would turn
(05:35):
up to their door.
because at that time it wasillegal to do in-calls in
Victoria.
I had to go to them, which is alaw.
that is not a clever law.
But, anyway, yeah.
Ellie Goode (05:48):
Interesting.
Artemisia de Vine (05:50):
Yeah, not good, but that has recently
changed, which I'm absolutelydelighted about.
But I would turn up to thisdoor, you know, having no idea
really who was on the other sideor what flavoured sex that they
would want.
(06:10):
So imagine turning up to ahouse in Paran, a townhouse.
I've got my female securityguard the one I hired in the car
who drove me there so I couldanswer the calls on the phone
while she was driving me there.
I met her at a bar.
She's cool And I would knock Onthe door, knowing that somebody
(06:35):
was going to answer the door.
I was about to have sex withthem.
They had in their head a storyabout what was going to happen,
the kind of sex that they wanted, and they had no way of
articulating to me what that was.
So it felt like walking into anacting Improv scene halfway
(06:56):
through the scene, where youhave no idea what the the
motions are.
Ellie Goode (07:01):
What a story are they?
Artemisia de Vine (07:02):
are they telling in their head?
Are they excited by somebodywho is Closed off and cold and
distant that they have to seduceand then feel triumphant when
they, you know, get a wildreaction out of out of them?
are they turned on by someonewho is, you know, looking up at
(07:23):
them with Bambi eyes and makingthem feel like they're?
you know all that?
they're so cool, they're theteacher.
Oh, wow, you're so good.
Are they?
Are they excited by intimacyand connection and closeness?
are they excited by Somebodywho wants to take control and
knows what she wants and doesn'tcare what they want?
(07:43):
There was so many differentoptions and have and they would
just be assuming That the waythat they liked sex is just the
way sex is.
So I had to read them in themoment, i had to bounce off them
in the moment and Turns out, iwas really good at it.
Awesome turned out.
I was really good at beingFollowing where they desire
(08:10):
wanted to go.
And Because it was sex work,because I was being paid, i
wasn't actually trying to get myneeds met.
I was trying.
My full attention Was on theirsfor the first time, like the
sex I'd had before, that, i wastrying to get my own needs, when
I was focusing on myself asmuch as them.
This is different.
This is like Who are you?
(08:31):
You're already in an alteredstate of consciousness because,
let's face it, when somebody ishorny, that's an altered state.
You think differently, yournerve endings respond
differently, your logic isdifferent.
They're already in there andthey're expecting me to mind
rate.
Wow, what happened when Istarted focusing on their
(08:51):
turn-ons only and focusing onfollowing where they needed to
go?
Is we kept stumbling acrossthese really interesting That
sound pretty out there when Itry and describe them?
They sound like I used to keepnotes in my diary The things
(09:14):
clients would say after sessions, because I No one is gonna
believe me.
But what we kept stumblingacross was Experiences that were
way more profound than weexpected.
They might have initiallybooked me because I've got big
(09:36):
breasts.
You know I want to.
I want to have sex with a bustyblonde, and I know I want the
girlfriend experience.
That's about as far as theywould know about their own
motives.
Or the porn star experience.
They want it to be more wildand primal.
So Or they might have asked fora specific fetish.
(09:58):
This is when I was still a sexworker.
Before I was a pro-dom and INotice that if I followed their,
that we kept stumbling on thesestates that occasionally went
into not just letting go into apowerful orgasms or Getting into
this wonderful playful flowstate of erotic enjoyment But we
(10:19):
did drop even deeper.
We drop even deeper into aplace that All our guards are
completely down.
A stranger that I just met andAnd our guards are somehow
Completely down and we'resharing this moment.
We're sharing it as as a gameof sexual fun or smutty, you
(10:45):
know, whatever it is, or maybeeven intimacy, depending on
which, which direction it went.
Yeah, but we're now droppinginto a state where what I can
only describe as Our egos arethe guards are down, when the
(11:07):
things that we normally protectourselves from, you know, we're
all, we've got our cards upbecause we're worried about our
self-esteem or our status or Ourself Identity.
Even right, they that was down.
And how did that get down witha complete stranger That I only
met just recently?
(11:27):
How did that Enormous switchhappen for both of us in such a
short period of time?
so then I became really curiousabout Following their turn-ons.
If this happened.
When I trusted their turn-onsand, specifically, i started up,
i Moved from doing that, that,that initial kind of sex work,
(11:50):
and I end up setting up a wholeplace space in Sydney With
various different rooms.
There was, like you know, awhole dungeon.
I ended up training as adominatrix and learning all
sorts of things from, from.
We were and I had a, you know,cross-dressing room, a massage
room, a beautiful bourgeois,various different places that
people could come, and one ofthe clients actually named it
(12:12):
the divinery because of my lastname obviously divine, but also
because It is about diviningyourself through your rotic when
you come to play And and it'sbeen called the divinery ever
since.
But I started setting up thisreal curiosity.
I'd say, okay, i'm really goingto look into this.
Why is this happening?
Why is it happening when Itrust their turn-ons and follow
(12:35):
their erotic map?
What's, why is this?
I need to.
I need to understand this moreand And to understand it more,
i'd asked them about theirsexual fantasies.
I sit them down on my redvelvet couch.
We'd have a cup of tea beforewe play.
At this stage It's no longerthe two minutes, it's now a half
an hour conversation.
I evolved And I got really goodat getting an awful lot of
(13:08):
information out of them withinthat time and And asking them
about their sexual fantasies andnoticing the erotic narrative
that under it was likeunderlying it.
It's like these are stories,these are just stories, and
stories take us somewhere insideourselves.
They're not meant to be enactedrich literally There, but they
(13:30):
are Absolutely perfectpsychological mechanisms that
create an effect on us.
That and I and I just and Irealized, oh my god, sexual
fantasies are the exact storythat our egos need to hear in
(13:50):
order to let their guards down,for us to feel the vulnerability
of pleasure, connection andsometimes even further into
expanded states of consciousness.
There's even Fuller potentialthere.
Wow, sexual fantasies aren'tsomething to run away from.
Their perfect stories and if wedon't take them literally and
(14:14):
miss and be confused and Aboutwhat they are, but see them for
the brilliant stories They are,we can I can Create experiences
from each of my clients tailoredto their particular unique of
iron wiring, because eachperson's ego is going to need a
different story, isn't it?
it's going to need a different,slightly different nuance.
(14:35):
So I got really good at hearingthose mechanisms and they're
not trying to live them outexactly.
It's.
It's actually.
I learned pretty quickly thatthat it's not as effective to
try and live out a fantasy as itis in someone's mind's eye, but
It's really powerful, likeknock your socks off.
(14:56):
Powerful to find a way to liveout the, the Psychological
mechanisms in embodied play andcreated as an experience based
on those particular fantasies.
And that's when my clientsreactions that I just kept
following what worked bylistening and honing and and
(15:17):
tweaking this process better andbetter, until I was regularly
getting Comments From peoplesaying, wow, this is what I've
been searching for my whole life.
This is what I really wastrying to feel when I was trying
to get my need met by, you know, going in and seeing a busty
blonde, but it wasn't feelingthe same satisfaction that I
(15:39):
thought I would.
From my fantasies, i was livingout the exact, you know, sex
act from the, from the fantasies, but it wasn't fulfilling me
always.
Still, it was fun, it was hot,but this is different.
This is the feeling that I'vebeen searching for my whole life
and I didn't even know how toput into words.
This is something, and and bythe time we're at the end,
(16:05):
you're not in a smutty headspaceanymore.
You, you know, in a kind ofpure space.
It's kind of weird how it flips, that It flips around and
they'd say things like thisfeels like I've taken acid and
ecstasy at the same time, but Ifeel the most grounded and most
present I've ever felt.
This feels like my heart isopen.
This feels and even weirdly,this feels wholesome, even after
(16:30):
we just did that weird shit.
So cool.
Ellie Goode (16:38):
So my this is what got me interested in this
process.
Artemisia de Vine (16:41):
My this is what got me interested in sexual
fantasies is just watching myclients reactions And then
honing that process.
What do you think Just just togive me a clue What do you think
?
Just imagine that yourlisteners might be thinking
(17:02):
sexual fantasies are like?
what do you think they might bethinking about them?
Ellie Goode (17:08):
It's a good question, like in terms of like
some examples of sexualfantasies or what, what they
think about sexual fantasies.
Artemisia de Vine (17:17):
Yeah, what do they think they they are?
because I'm throwing this atyou.
That's a bit unfair.
Ellie Goode (17:23):
No, no, that's right.
Artemisia de Vine (17:24):
Some of the narratives you might have heard,
or you might imagine that theymight think the role of sexual
fantasies are.
Ellie Goode (17:32):
I think, yeah, probably for listeners, probably
for most people, sexualfantasies I think people would
expect it's a way to orgasm or away to feel physical pleasure,
maybe like a means to an end,maybe something that they might
want to try one day, but don'treally know if they would,
(17:54):
depending on what it is, likeyou said.
I think it's sort of like Iremember reading in Esther
Perrell's book You know, women,a lot of women, have a right
fantasy, but that doesn't meanthey actually want to be right.
And so, you know, i think a lotof the times people have these
fantasies That maybe trigger anemotion in them or a feeling in
their body that make themaroused, but it doesn't
(18:15):
necessarily mean that they wantthat to be actualized in real
life.
So I think, but I think for alot of people, myself included,
like a fantasy has been a meansto an end Sexually I mean, i
don't really fantasize anymore,but yeah, i think that that
would be my sort of guess formost people, but I could be so
(18:36):
wrong.
Artemisia de Vine (18:37):
So, yeah, Yeah, okay, and so you don't
fantasize anymore.
I know you're not the theinterviewer here, but I'm
curious about why?
Ellie Goode (18:48):
that is why you don't fantasize anymore.
Artemisia de Vine (18:50):
Yeah, I don't know.
Ellie Goode (18:52):
Yeah, i don't know.
It's a good question, i guessfor me, a lot of my, i guess
Experience has just been I getso much out of just being in the
physical sensation of my bodyduring sex or during you know, a
pleasure practice ormasturbation or whatever, of
(19:14):
just being in my body, that itis to me the fantasy seems to
take me out of my body forwhatever reason.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong, idon't know.
But yeah, i, and it's almostlike it became a bit of a
distraction, i guess.
Um, and so I don't know, i justgot really into being in my
(19:38):
body and that's just, yeah, whatI prefer.
Now, i don't know.
Artemisia de Vine (19:43):
Maybe not prefer, but that's just yeah,
yeah.
Yeah.
Ellie Goode (19:49):
I think you're not alone in that.
Artemisia de Vine (19:51):
Pardon.
Ellie Goode (19:52):
Yeah, so I just said that.
that's just how it goes at themoment.
Artemisia de Vine (19:57):
Yeah.
Ellie Goode (19:57):
Yeah.
Artemisia de Vine (19:58):
And we go through different phases too,
don't we?
But I that's.
I don't think you're alone atall.
I think that that's actually,and actually, I think that's the
first step to getting the mostout of your sexual fantasies
anyway is to learn how to be tobe really present, because I
think that most people uh teachactually what you just said.
(20:19):
They teach that uh, to beembodied.
We need to not go into oursexual fantasies but be fully
present to our body, sensationsand to our partner.
Um, and it does feel likesexual fantasy is going into
your head and it and it is veryconfusing for people that it
(20:39):
seems like, uh, they arediametrically opposed and
couldn't possibly be um, uh,together, um, but I want to take
it at a third step.
I think the very first step isabsolutely correct.
You do need to learn how torecognize what is fantasy, what
is projection, and become fullypresent in the moment and then
(21:02):
bring out the key elements ofthat story consensually within a
um, a container, in the um, agame of play where you are fully
present with your senses, youare fully sent present with your
partner.
But you're now deliberatelyenacting the same psychological
(21:25):
mechanisms that you learned fromyour fantasies, um, uh, because
they are a map that can takeyou somewhere.
But initially, people, um, well,let's put it this way, as I
said before, um, sex.
But clients are just areflection of the rest of
society, they're just aconcentrated for they, they just
(21:49):
ask their.
Well, the people you know,they're in your social groups,
they may even be you, um, yeah,but you get to.
You get to see so many at atime.
I learned really quickly thatpeople did not realize that they
were projecting a fantasy ontoyou.
They thought that's just howsex was and they, um, were not
(22:13):
intentional about it at all.
So somebody would come in witha desire for, um, porn star sex
and wanted to go into a primalheadspace and, um, they wanted
to talk dirty to get there.
That was what works for themAnd they think that's just how
sex is All right.
And so they don't realize thatthere's other ways of doing
things, especially if there'ssomebody who is used to taking
(22:34):
the lead and they're not, um,taking the lead in sex and or
maybe has had to take the leadin sex all the time And
therefore they only follow theirown instinct.
They don't, they don't havemuch feedback from somebody that
they're with And the otherperson's following the dance.
They're leading the dance, sothey're just going to follow
their own turn ons And then theydon't ever really encounter the
(22:56):
wide variety of different pathsthat they can get there And
they, wow.
Coming back to your point aboutthat.
Let's get come back to yourpoint.
Um, when I've been talking toauthors recently being being, um
, talking to lots of otherauthors, cause I'm writing a
book and, uh, they say thatevery person who reads your book
(23:20):
has a different version of yourbook in their head.
And so when they talk to theauthor about the book, the
authors often whoa, you had anentirely different experience.
I'm reseeing my entire workthrough your eyes, now that's.
That's completely different,right?
(23:41):
So each one of us also has aversion of of each other in our
heads, right So?
um, uh, each, each person Iknow has a different version of
who Artemisia is, and oftenpeople when they're not being
(24:02):
fully present and connected.
We'll have a conversation withyou even though you're sitting
in front of you, as though youare that version of you that's
in their head rather than theactual human being in front of
you.
And to access the best sex, wewant to feel seen and connected.
We don't want to experiencesomebody else's projection on us
(24:26):
.
We want somebody else to notonly see us but but revel in
being with us and, and um, fullyaccept and delight in us.
That's, that's what we yearnfor.
So learning to be present is isvital in being able to actually
(24:52):
see the human being in front ofyou and have really fulfilling
sex, even if it's casual sex, westill want that.
You still want to be seen.
You don't want somebody to justproject their stuff onto you.
Otherwise, you know, you don'tget your own needs met Basically
.
Yeah, you're doing you know,yeah, and, as you know, um, i
(25:17):
mean maybe you want to say addsome things about, about how
that feels to be fully presentwhen you're engaging in
sexuality on an embodied level.
You're now connected to yourown feelings.
You're now connected to yourown, um, not just just emotions,
but that the nuances that canjust you know a touch, can now
(25:40):
ripple through your entire bodywhen you're fully present with
your body.
Is that?
what's your experience beenlike?
Ellie Goode (25:47):
Totally.
Artemisia de Vine (25:47):
Yeah, yeah.
Ellie Goode (25:50):
Yeah, yeah, totally , i mean cause.
For me, it started with justbeing present in my own body and
even in a non-sexual way, justlearning what does my skin feel
like, you know, in my hands, orwhat does it feel like to sit on
a chair, like really basicphysical sensations, and as that
, that opened as I worked onopening just my awareness of my
(26:14):
body and myself, and then Ibrought that into the sexual
realm.
It was like having sex for thefirst time, like you said I
think you said it really welllike a single touch ripples
through your whole body.
It's.
It's like, yeah, it's like tohave that awareness not only of
your own body but of anotherperson's body as well, touching
(26:36):
yours.
It's like, unlike anything I'veever experienced, it was really
.
It's just been, yeah, reallyhealing actually in a lot of
ways, to feel a sense of safetywith another person and to feel
that amount of just physicalpleasure, and that was like I
didn't know this was possible.
(26:58):
This is really amazing.
So, yeah, i think that, yeah,it's super powerful to be
present and aware, like withyourself and your own body, and
then to be able to bring that inwith another person or a
partner.
Yeah, it's just, it's reallycool.
Artemisia de Vine (27:15):
Yeah, i agree with you.
I discovered that too.
I went off and, in my curiosityabout to try and work out what
Neath was happening with myclients, i went off and learned
lots of different spirituality,sexuality, traditions, and in
part of that I became acertified somatic sexologist and
(27:36):
did sexological body work,which teaches you how to be
fully present in your body andnot rely on fantasies at all.
And it is mind blowing that yougo, wow, this can take me into
this beautiful erotic trancestate.
You can go into this flow statefrom here.
That is wow, it's wonderful,isn't it?
(28:02):
I don't know how to explain it.
You're mirror neurons, sinkwith somebody else, you
co-regulate your nervous systemsand it just feels like you're
in flow together and it can besuch a powerful thing to
experience.
But then I found that obviouslythere was something still
missing for me.
(28:23):
There was an itch that stillwasn't being scratched, and it
was only when I came full circleand brought the fantasies back,
the wisdom inside the fantasiesback, and started creating play
, that I started dropping intothat deeper layer again.
All right, this, oh, thesefantasies are genius.
Then there are often thingsthat you don't want to live out
(28:43):
literally, like the rape fantasyYou do not want to live out
literally ever right, but it issomething that he's creating a
really powerful effect.
What is it doing?
What is it triggering in us?
that is that is, you know, timeand time again, somebody who
just came because they liked bigtits didn't really, that was
(29:07):
the extent of it.
They were horny And then lateron they're all whoa.
I just had the most profoundexperience in my life.
What the hell was that?
Ellie Goode (29:17):
What was that Yeah?
Artemisia de Vine (29:22):
By following this map that's in there.
It's like, okay, let's putthese two together, let's be
fully present, recognize what isfantasy, so that we can now
consensually enact it.
We're not projecting anymore,we're both being seen.
We're now playing consensuallyAnd I realized that this, as I
said before, it is the exactstory that we need to let our
(29:43):
guards down, our ego guards downspecifically.
So if you can imagine and thisis just a metaphor model, not a
science model, but you knowwe're talking about stories, so
use a story to illustrate thepoint Imagine that there is a
force inside of you that is inyour unconscious.
(30:04):
It lives in your unconscious Andso it only speaks in the logic
of your unconscious.
It doesn't know any otherlanguage.
It sends symbolic sorts ofthings, messages to you, but it
creates desires, it knows whatyou're currently missing and
what you're resisting, and itsends you a symbolic story.
(30:25):
And it's not sending it to yourconscious mind, to your logical
mind.
It's sending it directly, likea love letter to your ego And
it's saying okay, ego, this isthe story.
You need to feel appeased,otherwise you're gonna stay
guarded And you cannot connectwith anyone if your ego is in
guarded place, so it's desiresentire job is to convince ego to
(30:51):
stand down temporarily so youcan access and share pleasure,
connection And, as I discovered,some of those really profound
states that I'd only ever reallyexperienced through other kinds
of things like psychedelics ormeditation or dancing madly for
(31:19):
24 hours, i hadn't really.
We were dropping into that.
Within an hour of meeting eachother We were already there with
no drugs involved at all, andwe've got to take this seriously
.
This is something really coolis happening here.
We've got to notice this.
Let's play with this.
So that's why sexual fantasiestake the really weird forms they
(31:44):
do because they're stories thatmake sense to ego, not your
logical mind, and ego is alwaysdefending self.
It wants to keep it, doesn'tlike any change of status quo,
it doesn't want you to shiftinto another state, it wants to
stay where it is.
So it will always resist and itwants to protect your self
(32:07):
worth.
You know it gets very upset whensomebody you know you felt it.
Surely when somebody just sayssomething a little bit niggly
about it, it won't get to youLike it defences up.
It's the opposite of connection, right Opposite.
There's a barrier between youand them And it's worried about
(32:27):
status, which is saving face.
When somebody says somethinglike you know, your ego acts up.
When you say it and sayssomething like did you just
patronize me with that comment?
Do you think you're above me?
You need to be pulled down apeg or two.
This is ego getting really.
(32:47):
Yeah, it's job.
It's supposed to protect us andit's a really important job to
have.
But this kind of barrierbetween us and them keeps us
separate, doesn't it?
It's the opposite of actuallymerging into even layers of your
(33:07):
own self.
It keeps, it literally givesyou blind spots.
You can't even see yourselffully Like you know you.
can you know that?
because how many, how many?
you know your folks, if yourfriends, that they're completely
blind to themselves.
Their ego is protecting them.
We all do it.
Ellie Goode (33:27):
We all do it.
Artemisia de Vine (33:28):
And in fact we can't survive in the world
without an ego.
It's really important to putyour ego back on after the
erotic experience so that you'vegot self-protection.
But if you want to move fromself, from I focus to we focus
and then maybe even to all I'mconnected with the all, the
everything focus, all right,oneness experiences The ego has
(33:54):
to temporarily get out of thedriver's seat.
And the first level of that, asyou said rightly, is a sexual
fantasy, and you've experiencedit yourself.
If you want to think about it,a sexual fantasy is a way to get
to an orgasm, and an orgasm isa moment where the ego has to
have let go enough for you to beable to have that orgasm.
(34:15):
It has to.
The French call it la petitemort, the little death, because
it's a little ego death.
It's just like a moment whereyou've shifted state of
consciousness just temporarily,like a little taste of that
right.
So that sexual fantasy alreadydid that for you.
What if we deliberately engagedit in an embodied way?
(34:38):
What if we stopped projectingour fantasies and instead
enthusiastically played withthem on purpose and got consent
with from each other, likeinstead of just projecting onto
each other, like going okay, iwould really like to have this
(34:58):
experience of feeling this andthis and this, and my sexual
fantasies show me the way to do.
It is this way or this way orthis way.
Are you willing to play thatrole for me in part or in full,
and can we negotiate that Andthen starting to deliberately
play?
imagine the intimacy.
It's this level of acceptanceyou get when someone wants to
(35:21):
play with your innermost secrets.
They want.
That to me feels so much moreaccepted than somebody who only
wants to see my nice side, whoonly wants to stare into my eyes
and breathe together and towhere, fully embodied, that
(35:41):
leads to beautiful ecstatictrance states.
I've been there with it, butthey were still a part of me
that was never seen and neveraccepted and never.
There's still something thatwas missing and bringing our
fantasies back on this level.
Is that answer that scratch theactual itch behind the?
yeah with the itch?
(36:04):
Does that make sense to you?
Can you ask me questions, causeI do geek out and I'm not sure
if I'm if anything's confusing,please ask me.
Ellie Goode (36:17):
Yeah, no, i mean.
No, it makes sense.
I guess.
A question I have would be likewhere do you think I guess
these fantasies come from, causeI mean I know they're different
for every person depending ontheir lived experiences.
But in the sense of youmentioned the fantasy as being
or desires, being a way to letdown the walls of the ego, where
(36:40):
do you think the fantasies comefrom, or what do you think the
purpose of the fantasy is?
Is it just to let down thewalls of the ego?
or, in your experience, like,what's been that?
What does that look like?
Artemisia de Vine (36:51):
Yeah, fantastic.
So the most common and commonlyaccepted models for why we have
sexual fantasies at the momentcome from therapists, who look
at everything through therapistlenses and they are set up as
the authorities on this topic.
Then they have university andsystems backing them up, but
(37:14):
they have lots of blind spotsbecause they're looking at it
through well unfinishedchildhood and adolescent
business that is getting in theway and needs fixing.
That's and with all of thetrauma discourse that is going
on around at the moment, wheretrauma is the buzzword, i guess,
(37:37):
and it's really important, i'mgrateful, i'm so grateful for
this topic being addressed.
It's super important.
But it seems like everyone'slooking at their sexual
fantasies through this new lensof trauma and they go oh, this
must be because I had thischildhood experience and I need
to address it, or this thinghappened.
What I noticed is that it's notfrom well.
(38:04):
Absolutely.
Our egos can be affected andshaped by trauma and therefore
that can come out in our sexualfantasies.
People without any traumahistories have equally amount of
kinky, perverted fantasies, asthough it's happened.
(38:27):
And there's been a few studiesnow that show this that the
amount of sexual abuse is aboutequal amongst people who
identify as people who preferclassical stars of sex to
preferred kinky stars of sex.
So it's not actually the traumathat's creating this pattern.
These patterns of wanting tosubmit, these patterns of
(38:49):
wanting to do, to dominate, to,are actually or going to be
there anyway as well.
So, not discounting the traumathat can come up, if that's
something that's happening foryou, then for sure that's.
I don't discount it, it's real.
But even when what I'm saying iseven when there has been no,
(39:12):
even if you had the perfectchildhood and nothing ever went
wrong just because of the natureof what an ego is, our sexual
fantasies have to overcome itAnd they're going to come up
with themes of power.
They're going to come up withthemes of hmm, you think you're
(39:35):
better than me?
I'll put you on your knees.
They're going to come up withegoic themes, right, yeah, yeah.
And and it's so that we cansurrender, because ultimately
that's what it is It's.
And as a professionaldominatrix I so often said you
(39:56):
know what my role actually is?
My role is actually to becomemy submissive's ego for them and
act it out so that they don'thave to have one and they can
let go into the blissfulsurrender of just being and
experiencing, and dropping intothose deeper states of being
(40:18):
which it can be so much morethan an orgasm.
So, and from from that place,an orgasm is just a nice bonus,
yeah.
Ellie Goode (40:32):
And so, so sorry.
You mentioned you taking on theego of like as the dominant.
Do you mean, when you're in thedominant role and you're
working with someone in thesubmissive role, you would take
on like their ego, or how isthat?
how would that work?
Artemisia de Vine (40:49):
Think about the archetype of the dominatrix.
Doesn't she think she's thebest thing ever?
Doesn't she just feel entitledto have her own way, isn't she
just?
of course you'll be on yourknees worshiping me, you slave.
Of course everything's going.
She's a walking ego, yeah she'sa walking ego right, but she's.
(41:11):
I did that So I became their ego, for them symbolically and
their subconscious, and not onlyin the way of acting all
haughty and as though I'mself-important, but also in
protecting them and keeping themsafe while they were vulnerable
.
I became their wall around them, for them, so I was both things
(41:34):
at the same time And if theycan have a real, felt sense of
that, they're going to let godeeply because someone's holding
it for them, right?
So this is a part of theirsubconscious, knows and responds
to it.
You've got it or you haven't.
And that's why I had to listento their fantasies, because if I
had to do it just my own way,without listening to their
(41:55):
fantasies, i would not be theright antidote for them, for
their resistance.
Because that's the other partof my theory is that it's not
only just the exact story thatego needs to hear to let go, but
it includes sexual fantasies,include ego's fear, Whatever ego
(42:17):
fears about being vulnerable,natural resistance to being
vulnerable.
It's going to include itsymbolically somehow in the
fantasy and it's going toinclude the antidote, right?
So you talked earlier about howlots of women have rape
fantasies and they don't want tolive them out in reality, this
(42:44):
is a perfect example.
If you just lived it outliterally, it would just be
poison, no antidote, and therewould be a harmful end result.
If you follow the power dynamics, the attitude, the body
language, the specific narrativethat is revealed in the erotic
(43:07):
fantasy, it has its own inbuiltantidote.
So you have to include the fearin order to transform it,
because if you don't include it,it doesn't transform.
So it has to be included insome form and the antidote has
to be there, and that's when thetransformation happens.
And the end result for both ofyou is the exact opposite to
what would happen if it happenedin real life.
Now you feel really sane, nowyou feel really safe, now you
(43:30):
feel actually really powerfuland you got your needs met in
exactly the way that you reallywanted them to be met.
So it's it flips everything andtransforms everything.
There's another.
Does that?
you're nodding about that?
(43:51):
tell me where you're at.
No, no, no, that's great.
Ellie Goode (43:55):
I guess one question I had was so say,
someone comes in and says sortof they want something, but
maybe that's what they thinkthey want.
But yeah, how do you, i guess,figure out, i guess sort of
what's underneath the fantasy orhow, what that person really
needs versus what they're saying?
(44:15):
I want this fantasy, forinstance, if that makes sense.
Artemisia de Vine (44:22):
I wish you could give me an example, then I
could bounce off that.
Ellie Goode (44:27):
Yes, I have a think of an example.
So let's just go with, say, therape fantasy, because we've
been talking about that one.
Like, say, i came in and I saidI really have this rape fantasy
.
I don't really know what to doabout it, i don't want to live
it out.
How, like, how could you readinto that, i guess in it, in a
(44:50):
person of what sort of at theheart of that fantasy, and how
can they experience that, thatfreedom, yeah, okay, so each
person who has that fantasythere is no one one size fits
all, so you always have tolisten very carefully to The
individual you're talking about.
Artemisia de Vine (45:07):
Just because your, your ex, wanted that same,
same sounding fantasy, doesn'tmean that they have the same
Aerotic map in time.
You have to listen to whatexactly their fantasy is.
Then you, i would ask thingslike okay, so in this fantasy?
first of all, i'd ask whatactually happens like in in the
(45:28):
in the fantasy, and then Peoplewill use different language in
the way they describe it and Iwill tease out and notice okay,
so so This fantasy is becausethey They can't help themselves.
(45:49):
You're so attractive That theyhave lost control of Their own
inhibitions because you're justthat hot right in fantasy.
In real life That would be aterrible thing and a bullshit
excuse.
Don't use that this.
Sexual fantasies are brilliantfor navigating internal realms.
Terrible, terrible guides forexternal realms in every day
(46:14):
enacting.
Ellie Goode (46:17):
Really clear about that.
Artemisia de Vine (46:20):
Yeah, okay, but I In in the fantasy realm
remember how everything it'sbizarre a world.
Everything flips.
It has a different Consequencethan it does in the outside
world.
So it is.
Let's just imagine this personis.
It's okay.
Actually, what they needed wasa Combination of Somebody, of a
(46:47):
reassurance that they're,they're, actually attractive,
and the evidence was that thisother person has lost control in
.
Remember self.
Ego's concerns are self-worth,self-identity and status, but
you can't, and also It might bereally a much more about how
(47:11):
They're keeping their status.
This person who's having therape fantasy?
because they might.
They might have good girlartists, like I did and So many
of us do, because even if youhad incredible parents, you know
, attitudes of society seep inand we've got a terrifying fear,
really primal fear, of notbeing accepted in the tribe.
(47:31):
As far as ego is concerned, ifyou are not accepted in the
tribe, you will die.
It gets very vigilant aboutdefending your status in society
.
That's why it gets so, you knowHuffy, every time he thinks
that you've Lost face in someslight way.
It's was really linked to thisRight.
(47:54):
So how are we going to overcomethis resistance and access this
sexual pleasure that you're notsupposed to have?
You're not supposed to havethis as a woman.
You're a good girl.
You're supposed to be the onewho's who's desired, and Not the
one who does those dirty thingsthat accesses this primal part
(48:16):
of yourself like an animal right.
So Okay, there's this mechanismright here.
That's going okay.
It's not your fault, Someoneelse did it for you.
You can keep your status as agood girl.
And also magically get all ofyour needs touched, and get
(48:36):
touched in exactly the way thatactually gives you pleasure.
You get to have all of the sexacts that you're really craving
for.
That You can't let yourselfactively pursue in order to keep
this, this status, in place,right and And at the same time,
you're really validated assomebody who's wanted, not
Rejected, because, look, theywant you so badly, they can't
(48:58):
resist you and, to the up to theunconscious, subconscious logic
, that's proof that you're notrejected from society.
You're part of it.
You're, you're in, and now youcan access this place inside of
yourself.
You've dissolved into it, doesthat?
Ellie Goode (49:14):
make sense.
Yeah, no, that's great.
Yeah, yeah, that's amazing,yeah, that, yeah, it makes a lot
of sense for sure.
Artemisia de Vine (49:21):
Right, and then people go into okay, well,
if she just did her therapy longenough, she would not need that
, she could just go into reallyembodied presence, right, this
is the next resistance thatcomes along.
But I find that most peopledon't get rid of these fantasies
.
They're not something thatdisappear.
Even if you do genuinely feelyour worth and don't feel any
(49:43):
shame anymore, the wiring isstill there and It's a brilliant
story you can play with becauseit's fun and deeply powerful
and triggers everything to getto that state really effectively
, really quickly.
So if you're consensuallyplaying with your, your sexual
partner, and you know, oh, whatif we did this, what we did that
(50:06):
and we're sharing all, i reallylike it when you do this, and
then then creating this foryourself and Going into this,
going into where you can go withthis.
So I Really want to move awayfrom that whole way of thinking
of if, if I just did the work, iwouldn't be turned on by this
(50:27):
and sexual fantasies becomeirrelevant and Just a
distraction.
I think come back full circle.
They're treasure, theirtreasure maps.
They lead you somewhere veryeffectively.
They're sent to you by your ownmind.
No one knows your, your egoresistances as well as your mind
does, and the exact Ways ofgetting around those resistances
(50:51):
so that you can get to thoseplaces.
So it would be such a shame tomiss out on this beautiful tool
that we could play with soconsensually.
Ellie Goode (51:01):
Yeah, yeah, you've got me curious now, but I really
liked what you said about Youknow it being a way to sort of
tap into your primal nature,because I think you know, like
you mentioned as well, it'salmost like this, this
evolutionary need in all of us,you know, in our nervous system
and our physical body you know,to tap into.
(51:23):
I guess that that primal energyin, in, in and the fantasy it
sounds like, is a way to do that, like you're saying, awaited,
safely, consensually, unlockthat primal energy in our, in
our bodies, which is which isreally cool, yeah.
Artemisia de Vine (51:40):
Yeah, well, when you were talking about rage
and forming a relationship withrage and how valuable that is,
this is that, yeah as well, likedesire is a really powerful
force, just like rage, somethingthat we're initially afraid of,
but once you're, you form itinto an allyship with it.
It is such a powerful ally, itis incredibly powerful.
Ellie Goode (52:06):
Yeah yeah that's super cool and I guess maybe a
sign question That just poppedup would be For, say, someone
who might be listening andthinking like I'm not in touch
with my Fantasies or desires.
I, i, i don't really know whereto begin or how to figure out
what a fantasy is that I'd beinterested in.
Do you, do you have sort of, iguess, some ideas, that of
(52:30):
things people can try to reallyconnect with The fantasy or to
sort of explore, or is itsomething that they just sort of
look at what they're curiousabout?
or yeah, hmm, Lots of.
Artemisia de Vine (52:43):
I think pretty much everyone has sexual
fantasies, but not everyone'saware that they do.
It's just like dreams Everybodyhas dreams but not everybody's
aware that they do, and you canBecome aware of your fantasies
and part of that is going to beworking.
Have it broadening yourdefinition of what a fantasy is.
So if you're thinking of it, ithas to be a fully fledged story
(53:07):
that I live from beginning toend in my mind's eye While I'm
masturbating.
You're going to miss all of thetimes when, actually, you
briefly drew on fantasy tobecome turned on, when you
leaned into your lover's hug andYou were fully present with the
sensations that were there.
But your mind also flashed to amemory of when they were
(53:29):
younger and fitter and they heldyou in a different way and
Suddenly your body's around Thatmemory that was there, you know
.
Or even if you have Peoplewho've looked up, they've got
favorite erotic as genres thatthey like to read or Pawn
searches that they like to referto, that's going to reveal the
(53:53):
same sort of underlying patternsand and people who Think, okay,
i'm just, i'm only ever fullypresent in my body.
Now They still have, they stillhave to tap into this exact
same pattern and I lived way onsome level and they're always
trying to work out How.
And if you look closely, theygo okay, i'll ask them about a
peak experience.
I say, okay, you can't rememberany fantasies, let's think
(54:14):
about a peak experience.
And they will talk to me aboutthe end result first, before
they And so that they don'tnotice it, they'll go.
Oh, we were just so in flow, wewere so connected.
Our hearts are expanded.
It felt like we were.
You know, we were just one.
I didn't know why I ended andthey began.
It was just the most wonderfulsex ever.
And Like they're justremembering the end results.
(54:37):
So then we're going to workbackwards.
We're gonna say, okay, what werethe circumstances that led to
this moment?
What was there and not just thesitting there breathing
together and eye gazing, whatactually created the situation
where you wanted to get intothat state together?
What was happening?
What was in your relationship?
What was happening, you know,and and you might find out that,
(55:03):
because I was at a party and Icould feel their attention on me
and their eyes from across theroom, and you know, my heart
started racing as they worked upthe courage to approach me and,
and you know, then we snuck akiss in the hallway or in the
bathroom or What was okay.
So in there in that ingredientwas there, was Wanting, you felt
(55:26):
being wanted, you felt beingdesired, you felt the right
level of risk safety ratio.
Attention there.
You know this because you needFor optimum sexual experience,
you really need to be able toaccess Not just pure safety.
Pure safety, actually you getyou board.
That can be the end result.
(55:47):
But you need to first engagesomehow symbolically risk To
enliven your nervous system atthe same time.
But it has to be the rightlevel of risk safety, that sweet
spot in there.
So we take a closer look at howthat's working and what other
circumstances around werebasically just Triggering off
(56:11):
the same narrative that a sexualfantasy would.
And then, sooner or later, youfind that that that actually is
sexual fantasy.
It's the same as their sexualfantasies and it just happened
to be triggered in a real-lifecircumstance.
Ellie Goode (56:27):
That makes sense.
Yeah, so it's like a fantasycould almost just be, like I
think you said, a memory, or,yeah, like it makes me wonder.
Yeah, like I think typically,like I would have thought of as
a fantasy, of being this reallyout there, adventurous kind of
experience, you know, or Way outthere.
(56:48):
But I mean, like you'rementioning, it could be just be
a really simple Thing of wantingsomething to happen with a
person, like a kiss in thehallway, for instance.
It doesn't have to be thisreally big, full blown, huge
things and that's really coolYeah.
Artemisia de Vine (57:04):
Yeah, even even if you don't want to go
into the past to draw on, you'dwant to go into the future as In
, i'm gonna have a really hotdate this Friday night and I'm
now really excited thinkingabout what might happen.
I'm excited by this part of itand that part of it and You know
I can feel myself, you know,getting ignited just
(57:25):
anticipating it.
But even sometimes people havesexual fantasies just about body
types and body and sex acts,just flushes in their mind's eye
Of certain things.
But even that, once you take acloser look at it, it has an
entire narrative within it.
That body type is not just thatbody type.
It represents something and ittriggers something in you.
(57:49):
So, and and that's one of thegenius things about this, this
way of Approaching sexualfantasies is you realize you
separate the essence from behindthe fantasy, from the fantasy
self.
Like I said before, you don'tneed to literally have That body
type in order to trigger thatsame mechanism, once you
understand what it is that wasbeing triggered.
I was never a, i was never aConventionally attractive person
(58:16):
and, you know, as a verysuccessful sex worker, because I
was triggering the thing behindtheir desires.
Hey, so You know it can be done.
Ellie Goode (58:28):
That's cool, that's so interesting, and so so I
guess you sort of mentioned thepower and the different Levels
that sexual fantasies can takeyou.
so maybe, if we can expand onthat, like, where sort of what
are the sort of states That youcan go when you really go into
(58:50):
these fantasies and unlock them?
Artemisia de Vine (58:53):
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so the very first levelis orgasm, as we said before.
So you know your little tinyego.
Death is, is, is is alreadyachieved just by living out your
fantasy.
And you can do that just byfantasizing in your head.
You don't have to actuallybring it out out of your head
(59:13):
and you can, if you want to nowbring it to a level where you
can connect and play and useyour fantasy as a Game to
interact with your partner.
You're including your partnerin it.
Now You bring it out of yourhead and into your bed, then
(59:36):
You're living the story.
Now, right, you're not justWatching the movie on the screen
, you're actually an actor onthe stage.
Now, right, and this is, thisis now.
You're up to your level offeeling, talking about being
embodied.
You're now, you're gonna feeleven more.
Now You also your subconsciousdoesn't know the difference
(59:57):
between In acting something andsomething really happening.
So if it feels as though Thatego Fear has been appeased
through the play, it justreleases that the Switch and the
ego turns off and you now gotaccess to the next part.
So now you can connect withyour partner.
(01:00:19):
It's not just in your head nowThat which was keeping you
separate from them, and it wasnot.
It's in your body and it in theplay, and it's now connecting
with somebody And this can thenmove into this wonderful flow
state, which is another level ofof letting go of ego and moving
(01:00:40):
into just a slightly deepererotic state of consciousness.
So imagine you know flow state.
What does that mean?
Well, just imagine You know adog in the park running like for
the pure joy of it, without anythought, just absolutely
delighting, being in a body andbeing alive.
(01:01:02):
That that's not analyzinganything, it's not worried about
whether it's being a good boyor not, it's just running.
So we've entered into this nextlevel and flow state can also
be highly concentrated, so youcan be really present and also
completely let go and surrenderat the same time.
That's one of the wonderfulparadoxes of flow state.
(01:01:23):
It's this, it's beautiful, butthat's just the first layer of
where you can go.
Then, if you want to get peoplewho are into BDSM and kinky play
often talk about going intosubspace And subspace Emission,
space, space, and people alsogot talk about going into top
(01:01:45):
space the person who'sdominating or leading or doing
doing can also go into thisintense flow state of Pure
experiencing.
You know, in play And that canfeel Lots of, there's lots of
different states under theumbrella of subspace.
Some people are talking aboutjust getting an endorphin high,
(01:02:06):
right And so, and that's alsoreally yummy as well.
But some of them are reallydeep where you just feel like,
whoa, i'm now one with theuniverse.
Whoa, what is this?
What is this?
This is beautiful cartoon thatwas been made by ES jewel Yes,
(01:02:30):
that's the cartoonist and It isof a Dominatrix Standing above a
collared slave.
He's on his hands and knees andshe's she's got the collar and
she's yanking his head up andmaking him look at the night sky
Of all of the styles ofeternity and she's like see how
(01:02:53):
small and insignificant you are.
This dominates its existingexistential dominatrix.
This is how small andinsignificant you are.
And and now, as a result,you're so small, your ego
dissipates.
That's the opposite way ofblowing your ego up.
(01:03:14):
The other way is making itreally small and then it
dissipates and it disappears,and then like they're free of it
and they're like, wow, now I'vegot this feeling of awe and
wonder.
So this is the kind of feelingthat comes with the next layer
of these erotic states ofconsciousness is awe and wonder.
And and then you start havingthat those Not existential
(01:03:36):
crisis, but existential glee Wow, that's cool.
Yeah, wow, this is amazing andfrom there, yeah, there, people
have all sorts of experiencesonce that part of them is open
from there.
So I think that's a deeplyvaluable You know, that's where
(01:03:58):
our creativity lives, our lifeforce, sex.
Sex is our creative life force.
You can you experience yourself, and and and each other On a in
a whole different way from thatplace, when your egos are out
of the way.
It's one of the most preciouslife experiences you can have to
share this state with another.
When both of your egos are outof the way, it is just Beautiful
(01:04:22):
, and sexual fantasies are theexact map to that, and even the
smutty things Of putting a gagin their mouth and a butt plug
up in the collar, on his neck,and then saying you're so little
, you're so little, you'renothing, and now you're free.
Now you're free, now there'seternity.
(01:04:43):
That's cool, but how do youeven begin this?
Well, okay, all right, allright.
So yeah, that actually took somedoing to work out how on earth
Okay, i'm having theseexperiences in the divinery,
sitting people down on my redvelvet couch And then, and then
they go away and they have noidea how to get back there again
(01:05:03):
, because I did all the work, iwas the one who could see what
was happening in the, in thenarrative of their fantasy, and
I knew how to bring it to lifein a consensual game that that
is going to benefit both of us.
Now I'm teaching people how todo it for themselves and for
each other, and I developed awhole framework instead of tools
(01:05:24):
, which you know, because it wasthe method that I use in the
diviner.
We just simply call it thedivinery method.
So, um, but we begin.
The foundation of all of itstarts from Forming a, rewiring
your relationship to desireitself, actively forming a
relationship with this part Thatsends you those fantasies in
(01:05:46):
the first place and embodiedlevel, feel the sensations
interact with an intentionallylevel of relationship from there
and then Then we build intoThen.
Then, once you've got that inplace, you know how to be
present, you know how to, how tonot project your fantasies.
Then we can come back to okay,what are your fantasies.
(01:06:07):
How can we bring this sameclever mechanism to life, in
play in real life?
play in and have that effect?
And one of the first thingsthat people can do to feel into
that is Start expanding thatmoment of satiation.
All right, desire is wanting,desire is I want, and you don't
(01:06:35):
want what you already have.
It's an urge of traits, amagnetic force pulling you to
something that you don'tcurrently have, an emotion that
you need for fulfilling.
Sometimes we think it's a carWe need to buy, but you know
it's.
It's really what you'd feel ifyou.
What state would you get toaccess that you don't currently
(01:06:59):
have, if you'd fulfilled thatfantasy?
right, this is where we start.
And then you imagine what thatwanting feels like now.
Imagine the satiation ofgetting that thing behind the
symbol.
Like now you have the feelingof freedom and power that you
didn't have before by imaginingbuying that car.
Now you you've And you feelwanted because how sexy are you
(01:07:25):
with that car.
You've got all the Those needsare now met now, what can you
access inside of yourself thatyou didn't before?
now?
you can feel the satiation ofthis need being met, of the
transformation being met by, bysymbolically living out that
story.
Okay, and most people, whenthey have that satiation, they
(01:07:46):
just feel it for a moment.
They could, they feel it, youknow Whoa, i thrill it, and a
and a lighting up and and eventheir heart can expand for a
moment And it can feel like.
But then it stops and they andthey're distracted by something
else, often because they Theydidn't actually satiate the real
need behind the, the wanting.
They actually went and boughtthe car instead of getting the
(01:08:07):
feeling but anyway, yeah, um, ifthe first thing you can start
to do is just focus on thatmoment of satiation, what does
satiation feel like in your body?
You know your guards are downtemporarily, it's right.
Then your guards are down, youfeel more alive, you feel more
(01:08:27):
expanded, you can feel more ofyourself, you can feel even a
euphoria rushing through yourbody and tingles, and It can.
Your self doubt has gone even inthat moment, right?
Ah, what does that feel like?
Let's, let's just sink intothat element and expand it,
instead of just rushing past itAnd thinking I need to go
(01:08:48):
quickly get another hit in orderto get it again.
I've got it right now.
What happens if I sit in it andexpand it and breathe it?
Ah, this is the first step ofteaching myself how to follow
desire, to get to these statesof consciousness It's guiding me
to This is learning how to tobe, have a more conscious
(01:09:12):
interaction with it here.
So that's and you can.
Uh, um, i've got a littleexercise you can go and do on On
um my website if you want tojust try it for yourself and see
if it's for you That you canaccess there.
But, yeah, that's, that's how webegin this process, if you want
to, if you want to explore thisin your life.
Ellie Goode (01:09:33):
Yeah, amazing.
It seems like it's almost, iguess, an aligning of both The
mind and the body, because it'slike the the mind is what helps
to create the desire, but thenit's dropping into the feeling
as well.
In the body It's, would you say, that sort of how it works,
like it's a, like you need both,not not just one and not just
(01:09:54):
the other.
Artemisia de Vine (01:09:55):
Yeah, it's bringing all the whole of us in.
If we want to be, if we want toTo be um accepted, we need to
accept the whole of ourselves.
If we want to Feel the fullpotential of our erotic cells,
we need to include the whole ofourselves, not cut one off for
the other.
So It's, it's the, it's thenext step after you've learned
(01:10:20):
how to be embodied and present.
Ellie Goode (01:10:22):
Yeah, that's cool, sounds very interesting.
Um, yeah, so if people want tolearn more about what you do, um
, and you know, check out someof your work, where can they?
where can they find out more?
Artemisia de Vine (01:10:38):
Okay, my website is the best place to go,
uh, artamizia divine dot com.
And it's best to join mymailing list rather than
following me on social media,because anything to do with sex,
especially sex work, routinelygets kicked off everything.
So I don't invest a lot Intrying to build my social media
because I just know it's amatter of time before I lose it.
(01:11:00):
So follow my actual newsletterif you'd like to keep getting
blogs and insights and into howthe erotic psyche works.
I'm pretty generous, i I liketo share a lot.
I'm also writing a book, uh,called the value of sexual
fantasies, and I'm currentlyjust launched a um, a
Kickstarter to, because I'mgoing to self publish so I can
(01:11:21):
keep full control over my sexwork narrative Rather than have
somebody sank to, you knowcensor it so, um, but that costs
a lot more money than yourealize to pay for editors and
audiobooks and pr and all sortsof things.
So I'm launched a kickstart.
(01:11:42):
If you'd like to get to Supportthat and see this work get out
into the world, that would bereally great.
But otherwise, go straight tothe, the website, and try that
exercise that I mentioned beforeand just try it for yourself.
And if you're interested, thenum, there's, you can start
learning the desire, compass andthen, and then start Possibly
getting some private coaching oror access the online course or
(01:12:04):
something from there.
So there's lots of ways for youto be able to begin this and to
have these tools for yourself.
Ellie Goode (01:12:13):
Wonderful, wonderful, um.
I'll be sure to put other linksin there in the show notes for
anyone listening.
And Thank you so much I'd amAsia for coming on and and
sharing all your knowledge andwisdom.
It's been an incredible chat,so much appreciated, yeah, fun.
Thank you so much for having meand that is a wrap.
Thank you so much for listeningand remember before you go,
(01:12:34):
please smash the five starreading or review button if you
haven't already, and I willcatch you all next time.
Welcome to the Sex Money and Rage podcast.
Artemisia de Vine (00:08):
They wanted to talk dirty to get there.
That is what works for them andthey think that's just how sex
is, and so they don't realisethat there's other ways of doing
things, especially if there'ssomebody who is used to taking
the lead in sex and maybe hashad to take the lead in sex all
the time And therefore they onlyfollow their own instinct.
They don't have much feedbackfrom somebody that they're with
(00:31):
And the other person's followingthe doubts.
They're leading the doubts, sothey're just going to follow
their own turn-ons, and thenthey don't ever really encounter
the wide variety of differentpaths that they can get there.
Ellie Goode (00:44):
Welcome back to Sex Money and Rage Rage.
I'm your host, ellie, and todayI interviewed Artemisia Devine.
It was an incredible episode,all about exploring sexual
fantasies and learning how to bein your body and also let go of
your mind, let go of your ego,through the lens of sexual
fantasies, which was superinteresting.
(01:06):
I learned so, so much from thisepisode.
It was super fun to interview.
Artemisia is incredible and hasa wealth of knowledge all about
sex and BDSM and sexualfantasies, so it was super
interesting to have thisconversation.
No matter who you are, nomatter where you are, no matter
what gender you are, i thinkyou're going to get a lot out of
this episode.
There's tons of really goodinformation, helpful information
(01:30):
about how to explore sexualfantasies in a whole new way And
what, what do they mean?
What are they, what are theysignaling to us in our bodies,
in our minds, and really pullingthat apart.
So that was super, super fun.
If you've been listening to SexMoney and Rage and you're
enjoying it, please go, leave afive star review, and if you're
not enjoying the podcast or youhate it, then feel free to stop
(01:51):
listening.
I will not tie you down andhold you here, unless you're
masochistic, in which case,welcome.
I also wanted to say a hugethank you to everyone who has
reached out and encouraged mewith the podcast and told me how
much you're enjoying theepisodes.
It honestly means so much to me, so thank you to all of you.
Please smash the five starreading or review button right
(02:13):
now, if you haven't already, andlet's jump in.
Today we have a superinteresting special guest,
adamija Devine, who is a formersex worker, professional
dominatrix and certified somaticsexologist who created tailored
experiences for thousands ofclients.
She was literally paid tobecome other people's sexual
fantasies And through this livedexperience she developed a
(02:36):
whole new theory about why wehave sexual fantasies and their
unexpected benefits.
Her unique perspective is beingenthusiastically received by
sexologists and therapists alike, many of whom have signed up
for sexual fantasy coachingthemselves.
She's now writing a book andteaches the divinery method,
which is both a philosophy and apractical set of tools for
(02:58):
accessing the counterintuitivevalue within our smuddy turn-ons
.
Her clients tend to beself-aware.
Intelligent people withintegrity who want to use the
erotic as a lens forself-discovery, have confidence
in the art of creating powerfulsensual sexual experiences that
access the full potential oftheir erotic beings.
(03:19):
So sounds so incredible.
I'm really excited to chattoday.
So, adamija, first of all,welcome, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much.
What got you interested insexual fantasies?
Artemisia de Vine (03:32):
To be honest, it is the responses that I got
from my clients that got mereally intrigued in the first
place when I was a sex workerand a professional dominatrix
When I first started I was not.
I didn't know what I was doing.
I thought I did.
Ellie Goode (03:50):
I didn't know what I was doing at all.
Artemisia de Vine (03:55):
I had been sex-skiing out for years already
.
Beforehand I'd read everythingI had had.
I was the kind of person wholiked to go out in the town by
herself and pick up a new personevery Saturday night and have
an experiment, and I had beendeliberately working through all
of my good girl-itis to get tomy own authentic sexual
(04:18):
expression for years before Istarted sex work.
So I thought you know, i knowwhat I'm doing, i know how this
thing works.
But being thrown in the deep end.
I tell you what Sex work is.
Definitely It sheds light onthe rest of society.
(04:39):
It's a concentrated form of whowe are.
So when you're encounteringthat number of people all at
once, like sometimes, you know,when I first started I didn't
know how to pace myself.
When I could see 10 people aday Too loud, i was like who am
I being?
(05:00):
And I was like who?
Ellie Goode (05:03):
can't just do this, that's amazing.
Artemisia de Vine (05:11):
Yeah, i learnt to pace myself, but when
I first started, i was onlyhaving a few minutes to speak to
someone on the phone.
Then they had just a fewpictures of me and a very brief
description of what I wasoffering, and then I would turn
(05:35):
up to their door.
because at that time it wasillegal to do in-calls in
Victoria.
I had to go to them, which is alaw.
that is not a clever law.
But, anyway, yeah.
Ellie Goode (05:48):
Interesting.
Artemisia de Vine (05:50):
Yeah, not good, but that has recently
changed, which I'm absolutelydelighted about.
But I would turn up to thisdoor, you know, having no idea
really who was on the other sideor what flavoured sex that they
would want.
(06:10):
So imagine turning up to ahouse in Paran, a townhouse.
I've got my female securityguard the one I hired in the car
who drove me there so I couldanswer the calls on the phone
while she was driving me there.
I met her at a bar.
She's cool And I would knock Onthe door, knowing that somebody
(06:35):
was going to answer the door.
I was about to have sex withthem.
They had in their head a storyabout what was going to happen,
the kind of sex that they wanted, and they had no way of
articulating to me what that was.
So it felt like walking into anacting Improv scene halfway
(06:56):
through the scene, where youhave no idea what the the
motions are.
Ellie Goode (07:01):
What a story are they?
Artemisia de Vine (07:02):
are they telling in their head?
Are they excited by somebodywho is Closed off and cold and
distant that they have to seduceand then feel triumphant when
they, you know, get a wildreaction out of out of them?
are they turned on by someonewho is, you know, looking up at
(07:23):
them with Bambi eyes and makingthem feel like they're?
you know all that?
they're so cool, they're theteacher.
Oh, wow, you're so good.
Are they?
Are they excited by intimacyand connection and closeness?
are they excited by Somebodywho wants to take control and
knows what she wants and doesn'tcare what they want?
(07:43):
There was so many differentoptions and have and they would
just be assuming That the waythat they liked sex is just the
way sex is.
So I had to read them in themoment, i had to bounce off them
in the moment and Turns out, iwas really good at it.
Awesome turned out.
I was really good at beingFollowing where they desire
(08:10):
wanted to go.
And Because it was sex work,because I was being paid, i
wasn't actually trying to get myneeds met.
I was trying.
My full attention Was on theirsfor the first time, like the
sex I'd had before, that, i wastrying to get my own needs, when
I was focusing on myself asmuch as them.
This is different.
This is like Who are you?
(08:31):
You're already in an alteredstate of consciousness because,
let's face it, when somebody ishorny, that's an altered state.
You think differently, yournerve endings respond
differently, your logic isdifferent.
They're already in there andthey're expecting me to mind
rate.
Wow, what happened when Istarted focusing on their
(08:51):
turn-ons only and focusing onfollowing where they needed to
go?
Is we kept stumbling acrossthese really interesting That
sound pretty out there when Itry and describe them?
They sound like I used to keepnotes in my diary The things
(09:14):
clients would say after sessions, because I No one is gonna
believe me.
But what we kept stumblingacross was Experiences that were
way more profound than weexpected.
They might have initiallybooked me because I've got big
(09:36):
breasts.
You know I want to.
I want to have sex with a bustyblonde, and I know I want the
girlfriend experience.
That's about as far as theywould know about their own
motives.
Or the porn star experience.
They want it to be more wildand primal.
So Or they might have asked fora specific fetish.
(09:58):
This is when I was still a sexworker.
Before I was a pro-dom and INotice that if I followed their,
that we kept stumbling on thesestates that occasionally went
into not just letting go into apowerful orgasms or Getting into
this wonderful playful flowstate of erotic enjoyment But we
(10:19):
did drop even deeper.
We drop even deeper into aplace that All our guards are
completely down.
A stranger that I just met andAnd our guards are somehow
Completely down and we'resharing this moment.
We're sharing it as as a gameof sexual fun or smutty, you
(10:45):
know, whatever it is, or maybeeven intimacy, depending on
which, which direction it went.
Yeah, but we're now droppinginto a state where what I can
only describe as Our egos arethe guards are down, when the
(11:07):
things that we normally protectourselves from, you know, we're
all, we've got our cards upbecause we're worried about our
self-esteem or our status or Ourself Identity.
Even right, they that was down.
And how did that get down witha complete stranger That I only
met just recently?
(11:27):
How did that Enormous switchhappen for both of us in such a
short period of time?
so then I became really curiousabout Following their turn-ons.
If this happened.
When I trusted their turn-onsand, specifically, i started up,
i Moved from doing that, that,that initial kind of sex work,
(11:50):
and I end up setting up a wholeplace space in Sydney With
various different rooms.
There was, like you know, awhole dungeon.
I ended up training as adominatrix and learning all
sorts of things from, from.
We were and I had a, you know,cross-dressing room, a massage
room, a beautiful bourgeois,various different places that
people could come, and one ofthe clients actually named it
(12:12):
the divinery because of my lastname obviously divine, but also
because It is about diviningyourself through your rotic when
you come to play And and it'sbeen called the divinery ever
since.
But I started setting up thisreal curiosity.
I'd say, okay, i'm really goingto look into this.
Why is this happening?
Why is it happening when Itrust their turn-ons and follow
(12:35):
their erotic map?
What's, why is this?
I need to.
I need to understand this moreand And to understand it more,
i'd asked them about theirsexual fantasies.
I sit them down on my redvelvet couch.
We'd have a cup of tea beforewe play.
At this stage It's no longerthe two minutes, it's now a half
an hour conversation.
I evolved And I got really goodat getting an awful lot of
(13:08):
information out of them withinthat time and And asking them
about their sexual fantasies andnoticing the erotic narrative
that under it was likeunderlying it.
It's like these are stories,these are just stories, and
stories take us somewhere insideourselves.
They're not meant to be enactedrich literally There, but they
(13:30):
are Absolutely perfectpsychological mechanisms that
create an effect on us.
That and I and I just and Irealized, oh my god, sexual
fantasies are the exact storythat our egos need to hear in
(13:50):
order to let their guards down,for us to feel the vulnerability
of pleasure, connection andsometimes even further into
expanded states of consciousness.
There's even Fuller potentialthere.
Wow, sexual fantasies aren'tsomething to run away from.
Their perfect stories and if wedon't take them literally and
(14:14):
miss and be confused and Aboutwhat they are, but see them for
the brilliant stories They are,we can I can Create experiences
from each of my clients tailoredto their particular unique of
iron wiring, because eachperson's ego is going to need a
different story, isn't it?
it's going to need a different,slightly different nuance.
(14:35):
So I got really good at hearingthose mechanisms and they're
not trying to live them outexactly.
It's.
It's actually.
I learned pretty quickly thatthat it's not as effective to
try and live out a fantasy as itis in someone's mind's eye, but
It's really powerful, likeknock your socks off.
(14:56):
Powerful to find a way to liveout the, the Psychological
mechanisms in embodied play andcreated as an experience based
on those particular fantasies.
And that's when my clientsreactions that I just kept
following what worked bylistening and honing and and
(15:17):
tweaking this process better andbetter, until I was regularly
getting Comments From peoplesaying, wow, this is what I've
been searching for my whole life.
This is what I really wastrying to feel when I was trying
to get my need met by, you know, going in and seeing a busty
blonde, but it wasn't feelingthe same satisfaction that I
(15:39):
thought I would.
From my fantasies, i was livingout the exact, you know, sex
act from the, from the fantasies, but it wasn't fulfilling me
always.
Still, it was fun, it was hot,but this is different.
This is the feeling that I'vebeen searching for my whole life
and I didn't even know how toput into words.
This is something, and and bythe time we're at the end,
(16:05):
you're not in a smutty headspaceanymore.
You, you know, in a kind ofpure space.
It's kind of weird how it flips, that It flips around and
they'd say things like thisfeels like I've taken acid and
ecstasy at the same time, but Ifeel the most grounded and most
present I've ever felt.
This feels like my heart isopen.
This feels and even weirdly,this feels wholesome, even after
(16:30):
we just did that weird shit.
So cool.
Ellie Goode (16:38):
So my this is what got me interested in this
process.
Artemisia de Vine (16:41):
My this is what got me interested in sexual
fantasies is just watching myclients reactions And then
honing that process.
What do you think Just just togive me a clue What do you think
?
Just imagine that yourlisteners might be thinking
(17:02):
sexual fantasies are like?
what do you think they might bethinking about them?
Ellie Goode (17:08):
It's a good question, like in terms of like
some examples of sexualfantasies or what, what they
think about sexual fantasies.
Artemisia de Vine (17:17):
Yeah, what do they think they they are?
because I'm throwing this atyou.
That's a bit unfair.
Ellie Goode (17:23):
No, no, that's right.
Artemisia de Vine (17:24):
Some of the narratives you might have heard,
or you might imagine that theymight think the role of sexual
fantasies are.
Ellie Goode (17:32):
I think, yeah, probably for listeners, probably
for most people, sexualfantasies I think people would
expect it's a way to orgasm or away to feel physical pleasure,
maybe like a means to an end,maybe something that they might
want to try one day, but don'treally know if they would,
(17:54):
depending on what it is, likeyou said.
I think it's sort of like Iremember reading in Esther
Perrell's book You know, women,a lot of women, have a right
fantasy, but that doesn't meanthey actually want to be right.
And so, you know, i think a lotof the times people have these
fantasies That maybe trigger anemotion in them or a feeling in
their body that make themaroused, but it doesn't
(18:15):
necessarily mean that they wantthat to be actualized in real
life.
So I think, but I think for alot of people, myself included,
like a fantasy has been a meansto an end Sexually I mean, i
don't really fantasize anymore,but yeah, i think that that
would be my sort of guess formost people, but I could be so
(18:36):
wrong.
Artemisia de Vine (18:37):
So, yeah, Yeah, okay, and so you don't
fantasize anymore.
I know you're not the theinterviewer here, but I'm
curious about why?
Ellie Goode (18:48):
that is why you don't fantasize anymore.
Artemisia de Vine (18:50):
Yeah, I don't know.
Ellie Goode (18:52):
Yeah, i don't know.
It's a good question, i guessfor me, a lot of my, i guess
Experience has just been I getso much out of just being in the
physical sensation of my bodyduring sex or during you know, a
pleasure practice ormasturbation or whatever, of
(19:14):
just being in my body, that itis to me the fantasy seems to
take me out of my body forwhatever reason.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong, idon't know.
But yeah, i, and it's almostlike it became a bit of a
distraction, i guess.
Um, and so I don't know, i justgot really into being in my
(19:38):
body and that's just, yeah, whatI prefer.
Now, i don't know.
Artemisia de Vine (19:43):
Maybe not prefer, but that's just yeah,
yeah.
Yeah.
Ellie Goode (19:49):
I think you're not alone in that.
Artemisia de Vine (19:51):
Pardon.
Ellie Goode (19:52):
Yeah, so I just said that.
that's just how it goes at themoment.
Artemisia de Vine (19:57):
Yeah.
Ellie Goode (19:57):
Yeah.
Artemisia de Vine (19:58):
And we go through different phases too,
don't we?
But I that's.
I don't think you're alone atall.
I think that that's actually,and actually, I think that's the
first step to getting the mostout of your sexual fantasies
anyway is to learn how to be tobe really present, because I
think that most people uh teachactually what you just said.
(20:19):
They teach that uh, to beembodied.
We need to not go into oursexual fantasies but be fully
present to our body, sensationsand to our partner.
Um, and it does feel likesexual fantasy is going into
your head and it and it is veryconfusing for people that it
(20:39):
seems like, uh, they arediametrically opposed and
couldn't possibly be um, uh,together, um, but I want to take
it at a third step.
I think the very first step isabsolutely correct.
You do need to learn how torecognize what is fantasy, what
is projection, and become fullypresent in the moment and then
(21:02):
bring out the key elements ofthat story consensually within a
um, a container, in the um, agame of play where you are fully
present with your senses, youare fully sent present with your
partner.
But you're now deliberatelyenacting the same psychological
(21:25):
mechanisms that you learned fromyour fantasies, um, uh, because
they are a map that can takeyou somewhere.
But initially, people, um, well,let's put it this way, as I
said before, um, sex.
But clients are just areflection of the rest of
society, they're just aconcentrated for they, they just
(21:49):
ask their.
Well, the people you know,they're in your social groups,
they may even be you, um, yeah,but you get to.
You get to see so many at atime.
I learned really quickly thatpeople did not realize that they
were projecting a fantasy ontoyou.
They thought that's just howsex was and they, um, were not
(22:13):
intentional about it at all.
So somebody would come in witha desire for, um, porn star sex
and wanted to go into a primalheadspace and, um, they wanted
to talk dirty to get there.
That was what works for themAnd they think that's just how
sex is All right.
And so they don't realize thatthere's other ways of doing
things, especially if there'ssomebody who is used to taking
(22:34):
the lead and they're not, um,taking the lead in sex and or
maybe has had to take the leadin sex all the time And
therefore they only follow theirown instinct.
They don't, they don't havemuch feedback from somebody that
they're with And the otherperson's following the dance.
They're leading the dance, sothey're just going to follow
their own turn ons And then theydon't ever really encounter the
(22:56):
wide variety of different pathsthat they can get there And
they, wow.
Coming back to your point aboutthat.
Let's get come back to yourpoint.
Um, when I've been talking toauthors recently being being, um
, talking to lots of otherauthors, cause I'm writing a
book and, uh, they say thatevery person who reads your book
(23:20):
has a different version of yourbook in their head.
And so when they talk to theauthor about the book, the
authors often whoa, you had anentirely different experience.
I'm reseeing my entire workthrough your eyes, now that's.
That's completely different,right?
(23:41):
So each one of us also has aversion of of each other in our
heads, right So?
um, uh, each, each person Iknow has a different version of
who Artemisia is, and oftenpeople when they're not being
(24:02):
fully present and connected.
We'll have a conversation withyou even though you're sitting
in front of you, as though youare that version of you that's
in their head rather than theactual human being in front of
you.
And to access the best sex, wewant to feel seen and connected.
We don't want to experiencesomebody else's projection on us
(24:26):
.
We want somebody else to notonly see us but but revel in
being with us and, and um, fullyaccept and delight in us.
That's, that's what we yearnfor.
So learning to be present is isvital in being able to actually
(24:52):
see the human being in front ofyou and have really fulfilling
sex, even if it's casual sex, westill want that.
You still want to be seen.
You don't want somebody to justproject their stuff onto you.
Otherwise, you know, you don'tget your own needs met Basically
.
Yeah, you're doing you know,yeah, and, as you know, um, i
(25:17):
mean maybe you want to say addsome things about, about how
that feels to be fully presentwhen you're engaging in
sexuality on an embodied level.
You're now connected to yourown feelings.
You're now connected to yourown, um, not just just emotions,
but that the nuances that canjust you know a touch, can now
(25:40):
ripple through your entire bodywhen you're fully present with
your body.
Is that?
what's your experience beenlike?
Ellie Goode (25:47):
Totally.
Artemisia de Vine (25:47):
Yeah, yeah.
Ellie Goode (25:50):
Yeah, yeah, totally , i mean cause.
For me, it started with justbeing present in my own body and
even in a non-sexual way, justlearning what does my skin feel
like, you know, in my hands, orwhat does it feel like to sit on
a chair, like really basicphysical sensations, and as that
, that opened as I worked onopening just my awareness of my
(26:14):
body and myself, and then Ibrought that into the sexual
realm.
It was like having sex for thefirst time, like you said I
think you said it really welllike a single touch ripples
through your whole body.
It's.
It's like, yeah, it's like tohave that awareness not only of
your own body but of anotherperson's body as well, touching
(26:36):
yours.
It's like, unlike anything I'veever experienced, it was really
.
It's just been, yeah, reallyhealing actually in a lot of
ways, to feel a sense of safetywith another person and to feel
that amount of just physicalpleasure, and that was like I
didn't know this was possible.
(26:58):
This is really amazing.
So, yeah, i think that, yeah,it's super powerful to be
present and aware, like withyourself and your own body, and
then to be able to bring that inwith another person or a
partner.
Yeah, it's just, it's reallycool.
Artemisia de Vine (27:15):
Yeah, i agree with you.
I discovered that too.
I went off and, in my curiosityabout to try and work out what
Neath was happening with myclients, i went off and learned
lots of different spirituality,sexuality, traditions, and in
part of that I became acertified somatic sexologist and
(27:36):
did sexological body work,which teaches you how to be
fully present in your body andnot rely on fantasies at all.
And it is mind blowing that yougo, wow, this can take me into
this beautiful erotic trancestate.
You can go into this flow statefrom here.
That is wow, it's wonderful,isn't it?
(28:02):
I don't know how to explain it.
You're mirror neurons, sinkwith somebody else, you
co-regulate your nervous systemsand it just feels like you're
in flow together and it can besuch a powerful thing to
experience.
But then I found that obviouslythere was something still
missing for me.
(28:23):
There was an itch that stillwasn't being scratched, and it
was only when I came full circleand brought the fantasies back,
the wisdom inside the fantasiesback, and started creating play
, that I started dropping intothat deeper layer again.
All right, this, oh, thesefantasies are genius.
Then there are often thingsthat you don't want to live out
(28:43):
literally, like the rape fantasyYou do not want to live out
literally ever right, but it issomething that he's creating a
really powerful effect.
What is it doing?
What is it triggering in us?
that is that is, you know, timeand time again, somebody who
just came because they liked bigtits didn't really, that was
(29:07):
the extent of it.
They were horny And then lateron they're all whoa.
I just had the most profoundexperience in my life.
What the hell was that?
Ellie Goode (29:17):
What was that Yeah?
Artemisia de Vine (29:22):
By following this map that's in there.
It's like, okay, let's putthese two together, let's be
fully present, recognize what isfantasy, so that we can now
consensually enact it.
We're not projecting anymore,we're both being seen.
We're now playing consensuallyAnd I realized that this, as I
said before, it is the exactstory that we need to let our
(29:43):
guards down, our ego guards downspecifically.
So if you can imagine and thisis just a metaphor model, not a
science model, but you knowwe're talking about stories, so
use a story to illustrate thepoint Imagine that there is a
force inside of you that is inyour unconscious.
(30:04):
It lives in your unconscious Andso it only speaks in the logic
of your unconscious.
It doesn't know any otherlanguage.
It sends symbolic sorts ofthings, messages to you, but it
creates desires, it knows whatyou're currently missing and
what you're resisting, and itsends you a symbolic story.
(30:25):
And it's not sending it to yourconscious mind, to your logical
mind.
It's sending it directly, likea love letter to your ego And
it's saying okay, ego, this isthe story.
You need to feel appeased,otherwise you're gonna stay
guarded And you cannot connectwith anyone if your ego is in
guarded place, so it's desiresentire job is to convince ego to
(30:51):
stand down temporarily so youcan access and share pleasure,
connection And, as I discovered,some of those really profound
states that I'd only ever reallyexperienced through other kinds
of things like psychedelics ormeditation or dancing madly for
(31:19):
24 hours, i hadn't really.
We were dropping into that.
Within an hour of meeting eachother We were already there with
no drugs involved at all, andwe've got to take this seriously
.
This is something really coolis happening here.
We've got to notice this.
Let's play with this.
So that's why sexual fantasiestake the really weird forms they
(31:44):
do because they're stories thatmake sense to ego, not your
logical mind, and ego is alwaysdefending self.
It wants to keep it, doesn'tlike any change of status quo,
it doesn't want you to shiftinto another state, it wants to
stay where it is.
So it will always resist and itwants to protect your self
(32:07):
worth.
You know it gets very upset whensomebody you know you felt it.
Surely when somebody just sayssomething a little bit niggly
about it, it won't get to youLike it defences up.
It's the opposite of connection, right Opposite.
There's a barrier between youand them And it's worried about
(32:27):
status, which is saving face.
When somebody says somethinglike you know, your ego acts up.
When you say it and sayssomething like did you just
patronize me with that comment?
Do you think you're above me?
You need to be pulled down apeg or two.
This is ego getting really.
(32:47):
Yeah, it's job.
It's supposed to protect us andit's a really important job to
have.
But this kind of barrierbetween us and them keeps us
separate, doesn't it?
It's the opposite of actuallymerging into even layers of your
(33:07):
own self.
It keeps, it literally givesyou blind spots.
You can't even see yourselffully Like you know you.
can you know that?
because how many, how many?
you know your folks, if yourfriends, that they're completely
blind to themselves.
Their ego is protecting them.
We all do it.
Ellie Goode (33:27):
We all do it.
Artemisia de Vine (33:28):
And in fact we can't survive in the world
without an ego.
It's really important to putyour ego back on after the
erotic experience so that you'vegot self-protection.
But if you want to move fromself, from I focus to we focus
and then maybe even to all I'mconnected with the all, the
everything focus, all right,oneness experiences The ego has
(33:54):
to temporarily get out of thedriver's seat.
And the first level of that, asyou said rightly, is a sexual
fantasy, and you've experiencedit yourself.
If you want to think about it,a sexual fantasy is a way to get
to an orgasm, and an orgasm isa moment where the ego has to
have let go enough for you to beable to have that orgasm.
(34:15):
It has to.
The French call it la petitemort, the little death, because
it's a little ego death.
It's just like a moment whereyou've shifted state of
consciousness just temporarily,like a little taste of that
right.
So that sexual fantasy alreadydid that for you.
What if we deliberately engagedit in an embodied way?
(34:38):
What if we stopped projectingour fantasies and instead
enthusiastically played withthem on purpose and got consent
with from each other, likeinstead of just projecting onto
each other, like going okay, iwould really like to have this
(34:58):
experience of feeling this andthis and this, and my sexual
fantasies show me the way to do.
It is this way or this way orthis way.
Are you willing to play thatrole for me in part or in full,
and can we negotiate that Andthen starting to deliberately
play?
imagine the intimacy.
It's this level of acceptanceyou get when someone wants to
(35:21):
play with your innermost secrets.
They want.
That to me feels so much moreaccepted than somebody who only
wants to see my nice side, whoonly wants to stare into my eyes
and breathe together and towhere, fully embodied, that
(35:41):
leads to beautiful ecstatictrance states.
I've been there with it, butthey were still a part of me
that was never seen and neveraccepted and never.
There's still something thatwas missing and bringing our
fantasies back on this level.
Is that answer that scratch theactual itch behind the?
yeah with the itch?
(36:04):
Does that make sense to you?
Can you ask me questions, causeI do geek out and I'm not sure
if I'm if anything's confusing,please ask me.
Ellie Goode (36:17):
Yeah, no, i mean.
No, it makes sense.
I guess.
A question I have would be likewhere do you think I guess
these fantasies come from, causeI mean I know they're different
for every person depending ontheir lived experiences.
But in the sense of youmentioned the fantasy as being
or desires, being a way to letdown the walls of the ego, where
(36:40):
do you think the fantasies comefrom, or what do you think the
purpose of the fantasy is?
Is it just to let down thewalls of the ego?
or, in your experience, like,what's been that?
What does that look like?
Artemisia de Vine (36:51):
Yeah, fantastic.
So the most common and commonlyaccepted models for why we have
sexual fantasies at the momentcome from therapists, who look
at everything through therapistlenses and they are set up as
the authorities on this topic.
Then they have university andsystems backing them up, but
(37:14):
they have lots of blind spotsbecause they're looking at it
through well unfinishedchildhood and adolescent
business that is getting in theway and needs fixing.
That's and with all of thetrauma discourse that is going
on around at the moment, wheretrauma is the buzzword, i guess,
(37:37):
and it's really important, i'mgrateful, i'm so grateful for
this topic being addressed.
It's super important.
But it seems like everyone'slooking at their sexual
fantasies through this new lensof trauma and they go oh, this
must be because I had thischildhood experience and I need
to address it, or this thinghappened.
What I noticed is that it's notfrom well.
(38:04):
Absolutely.
Our egos can be affected andshaped by trauma and therefore
that can come out in our sexualfantasies.
People without any traumahistories have equally amount of
kinky, perverted fantasies, asthough it's happened.
(38:27):
And there's been a few studiesnow that show this that the
amount of sexual abuse is aboutequal amongst people who
identify as people who preferclassical stars of sex to
preferred kinky stars of sex.
So it's not actually the traumathat's creating this pattern.
These patterns of wanting tosubmit, these patterns of
(38:49):
wanting to do, to dominate, to,are actually or going to be
there anyway as well.
So, not discounting the traumathat can come up, if that's
something that's happening foryou, then for sure that's.
I don't discount it, it's real.
But even when what I'm saying iseven when there has been no,
(39:12):
even if you had the perfectchildhood and nothing ever went
wrong just because of the natureof what an ego is, our sexual
fantasies have to overcome itAnd they're going to come up
with themes of power.
They're going to come up withthemes of hmm, you think you're
(39:35):
better than me?
I'll put you on your knees.
They're going to come up withegoic themes, right, yeah, yeah.
And and it's so that we cansurrender, because ultimately
that's what it is It's.
And as a professionaldominatrix I so often said you
(39:56):
know what my role actually is?
My role is actually to becomemy submissive's ego for them and
act it out so that they don'thave to have one and they can
let go into the blissfulsurrender of just being and
experiencing, and dropping intothose deeper states of being
(40:18):
which it can be so much morethan an orgasm.
So, and from from that place,an orgasm is just a nice bonus,
yeah.
Ellie Goode (40:32):
And so, so sorry.
You mentioned you taking on theego of like as the dominant.
Do you mean, when you're in thedominant role and you're
working with someone in thesubmissive role, you would take
on like their ego, or how isthat?
how would that work?
Artemisia de Vine (40:49):
Think about the archetype of the dominatrix.
Doesn't she think she's thebest thing ever?
Doesn't she just feel entitledto have her own way, isn't she
just?
of course you'll be on yourknees worshiping me, you slave.
Of course everything's going.
She's a walking ego, yeah she'sa walking ego right, but she's.
(41:11):
I did that So I became their ego, for them symbolically and
their subconscious, and not onlyin the way of acting all
haughty and as though I'mself-important, but also in
protecting them and keeping themsafe while they were vulnerable
.
I became their wall around them, for them, so I was both things
(41:34):
at the same time And if theycan have a real, felt sense of
that, they're going to let godeeply because someone's holding
it for them, right?
So this is a part of theirsubconscious, knows and responds
to it.
You've got it or you haven't.
And that's why I had to listento their fantasies, because if I
had to do it just my own way,without listening to their
(41:55):
fantasies, i would not be theright antidote for them, for
their resistance.
Because that's the other partof my theory is that it's not
only just the exact story thatego needs to hear to let go, but
it includes sexual fantasies,include ego's fear, Whatever ego
(42:17):
fears about being vulnerable,natural resistance to being
vulnerable.
It's going to include itsymbolically somehow in the
fantasy and it's going toinclude the antidote, right?
So you talked earlier about howlots of women have rape
fantasies and they don't want tolive them out in reality, this
(42:44):
is a perfect example.
If you just lived it outliterally, it would just be
poison, no antidote, and therewould be a harmful end result.
If you follow the power dynamics, the attitude, the body
language, the specific narrativethat is revealed in the erotic
(43:07):
fantasy, it has its own inbuiltantidote.
So you have to include the fearin order to transform it,
because if you don't include it,it doesn't transform.
So it has to be included insome form and the antidote has
to be there, and that's when thetransformation happens.
And the end result for both ofyou is the exact opposite to
what would happen if it happenedin real life.
Now you feel really sane, nowyou feel really safe, now you
(43:30):
feel actually really powerfuland you got your needs met in
exactly the way that you reallywanted them to be met.
So it's it flips everything andtransforms everything.
There's another.
Does that?
you're nodding about that?
(43:51):
tell me where you're at.
No, no, no, that's great.
Ellie Goode (43:55):
I guess one question I had was so say,
someone comes in and says sortof they want something, but
maybe that's what they thinkthey want.
But yeah, how do you, i guess,figure out, i guess sort of
what's underneath the fantasy orhow, what that person really
needs versus what they're saying?
(44:15):
I want this fantasy, forinstance, if that makes sense.
Artemisia de Vine (44:22):
I wish you could give me an example, then I
could bounce off that.
Ellie Goode (44:27):
Yes, I have a think of an example.
So let's just go with, say, therape fantasy, because we've
been talking about that one.
Like, say, i came in and I saidI really have this rape fantasy
.
I don't really know what to doabout it, i don't want to live
it out.
How, like, how could you readinto that, i guess in it, in a
(44:50):
person of what sort of at theheart of that fantasy, and how
can they experience that, thatfreedom, yeah, okay, so each
person who has that fantasythere is no one one size fits
all, so you always have tolisten very carefully to The
individual you're talking about.
Artemisia de Vine (45:07):
Just because your, your ex, wanted that same,
same sounding fantasy, doesn'tmean that they have the same
Aerotic map in time.
You have to listen to whatexactly their fantasy is.
Then you, i would ask thingslike okay, so in this fantasy?
first of all, i'd ask whatactually happens like in in the
(45:28):
in the fantasy, and then Peoplewill use different language in
the way they describe it and Iwill tease out and notice okay,
so so This fantasy is becausethey They can't help themselves.
(45:49):
You're so attractive That theyhave lost control of Their own
inhibitions because you're justthat hot right in fantasy.
In real life That would be aterrible thing and a bullshit
excuse.
Don't use that this.
Sexual fantasies are brilliantfor navigating internal realms.
Terrible, terrible guides forexternal realms in every day
(46:14):
enacting.
Ellie Goode (46:17):
Really clear about that.
Artemisia de Vine (46:20):
Yeah, okay, but I In in the fantasy realm
remember how everything it'sbizarre a world.
Everything flips.
It has a different Consequencethan it does in the outside
world.
So it is.
Let's just imagine this personis.
It's okay.
Actually, what they needed wasa Combination of Somebody, of a
(46:47):
reassurance that they're,they're, actually attractive,
and the evidence was that thisother person has lost control in
.
Remember self.
Ego's concerns are self-worth,self-identity and status, but
you can't, and also It might bereally a much more about how
(47:11):
They're keeping their status.
This person who's having therape fantasy?
because they might.
They might have good girlartists, like I did and So many
of us do, because even if youhad incredible parents, you know
, attitudes of society seep inand we've got a terrifying fear,
really primal fear, of notbeing accepted in the tribe.
(47:31):
As far as ego is concerned, ifyou are not accepted in the
tribe, you will die.
It gets very vigilant aboutdefending your status in society
.
That's why it gets so, you knowHuffy, every time he thinks
that you've Lost face in someslight way.
It's was really linked to thisRight.
(47:54):
So how are we going to overcomethis resistance and access this
sexual pleasure that you're notsupposed to have?
You're not supposed to havethis as a woman.
You're a good girl.
You're supposed to be the onewho's who's desired, and Not the
one who does those dirty thingsthat accesses this primal part
(48:16):
of yourself like an animal right.
So Okay, there's this mechanismright here.
That's going okay.
It's not your fault, Someoneelse did it for you.
You can keep your status as agood girl.
And also magically get all ofyour needs touched, and get
(48:36):
touched in exactly the way thatactually gives you pleasure.
You get to have all of the sexacts that you're really craving
for.
That You can't let yourselfactively pursue in order to keep
this, this status, in place,right and And at the same time,
you're really validated assomebody who's wanted, not
Rejected, because, look, theywant you so badly, they can't
(48:58):
resist you and, to the up to theunconscious, subconscious logic
, that's proof that you're notrejected from society.
You're part of it.
You're, you're in, and now youcan access this place inside of
yourself.
You've dissolved into it, doesthat?
Ellie Goode (49:14):
make sense.
Yeah, no, that's great.
Yeah, yeah, that's amazing,yeah, that, yeah, it makes a lot
of sense for sure.
Artemisia de Vine (49:21):
Right, and then people go into okay, well,
if she just did her therapy longenough, she would not need that
, she could just go into reallyembodied presence, right, this
is the next resistance thatcomes along.
But I find that most peopledon't get rid of these fantasies
.
They're not something thatdisappear.
Even if you do genuinely feelyour worth and don't feel any
(49:43):
shame anymore, the wiring isstill there and It's a brilliant
story you can play with becauseit's fun and deeply powerful
and triggers everything to getto that state really effectively
, really quickly.
So if you're consensuallyplaying with your, your sexual
partner, and you know, oh, whatif we did this, what we did that
(50:06):
and we're sharing all, i reallylike it when you do this, and
then then creating this foryourself and Going into this,
going into where you can go withthis.
So I Really want to move awayfrom that whole way of thinking
of if, if I just did the work, iwouldn't be turned on by this
(50:27):
and sexual fantasies becomeirrelevant and Just a
distraction.
I think come back full circle.
They're treasure, theirtreasure maps.
They lead you somewhere veryeffectively.
They're sent to you by your ownmind.
No one knows your, your egoresistances as well as your mind
does, and the exact Ways ofgetting around those resistances
(50:51):
so that you can get to thoseplaces.
So it would be such a shame tomiss out on this beautiful tool
that we could play with soconsensually.
Ellie Goode (51:01):
Yeah, yeah, you've got me curious now, but I really
liked what you said about Youknow it being a way to sort of
tap into your primal nature,because I think you know, like
you mentioned as well, it'salmost like this, this
evolutionary need in all of us,you know, in our nervous system
and our physical body you know,to tap into.
(51:23):
I guess that that primal energyin, in, in and the fantasy it
sounds like, is a way to do that, like you're saying, awaited,
safely, consensually, unlockthat primal energy in our, in
our bodies, which is which isreally cool, yeah.
Artemisia de Vine (51:40):
Yeah, well, when you were talking about rage
and forming a relationship withrage and how valuable that is,
this is that, yeah as well, likedesire is a really powerful
force, just like rage, somethingthat we're initially afraid of,
but once you're, you form itinto an allyship with it.
It is such a powerful ally, itis incredibly powerful.
Ellie Goode (52:06):
Yeah yeah that's super cool and I guess maybe a
sign question That just poppedup would be For, say, someone
who might be listening andthinking like I'm not in touch
with my Fantasies or desires.
I, i, i don't really know whereto begin or how to figure out
what a fantasy is that I'd beinterested in.
Do you, do you have sort of, iguess, some ideas, that of
(52:30):
things people can try to reallyconnect with The fantasy or to
sort of explore, or is itsomething that they just sort of
look at what they're curiousabout?
or yeah, hmm, Lots of.
Artemisia de Vine (52:43):
I think pretty much everyone has sexual
fantasies, but not everyone'saware that they do.
It's just like dreams Everybodyhas dreams but not everybody's
aware that they do, and you canBecome aware of your fantasies
and part of that is going to beworking.
Have it broadening yourdefinition of what a fantasy is.
So if you're thinking of it, ithas to be a fully fledged story
(53:07):
that I live from beginning toend in my mind's eye While I'm
masturbating.
You're going to miss all of thetimes when, actually, you
briefly drew on fantasy tobecome turned on, when you
leaned into your lover's hug andYou were fully present with the
sensations that were there.
But your mind also flashed to amemory of when they were
(53:29):
younger and fitter and they heldyou in a different way and
Suddenly your body's around Thatmemory that was there, you know
.
Or even if you have Peoplewho've looked up, they've got
favorite erotic as genres thatthey like to read or Pawn
searches that they like to referto, that's going to reveal the
(53:53):
same sort of underlying patternsand and people who Think, okay,
i'm just, i'm only ever fullypresent in my body.
Now They still have, they stillhave to tap into this exact
same pattern and I lived way onsome level and they're always
trying to work out How.
And if you look closely, theygo okay, i'll ask them about a
peak experience.
I say, okay, you can't rememberany fantasies, let's think
(54:14):
about a peak experience.
And they will talk to me aboutthe end result first, before
they And so that they don'tnotice it, they'll go.
Oh, we were just so in flow, wewere so connected.
Our hearts are expanded.
It felt like we were.
You know, we were just one.
I didn't know why I ended andthey began.
It was just the most wonderfulsex ever.
And Like they're justremembering the end results.
(54:37):
So then we're going to workbackwards.
We're gonna say, okay, what werethe circumstances that led to
this moment?
What was there and not just thesitting there breathing
together and eye gazing, whatactually created the situation
where you wanted to get intothat state together?
What was happening?
What was in your relationship?
What was happening, you know,and and you might find out that,
(55:03):
because I was at a party and Icould feel their attention on me
and their eyes from across theroom, and you know, my heart
started racing as they worked upthe courage to approach me and,
and you know, then we snuck akiss in the hallway or in the
bathroom or What was okay.
So in there in that ingredientwas there, was Wanting, you felt
(55:26):
being wanted, you felt beingdesired, you felt the right
level of risk safety ratio.
Attention there.
You know this because you needFor optimum sexual experience,
you really need to be able toaccess Not just pure safety.
Pure safety, actually you getyou board.
That can be the end result.
(55:47):
But you need to first engagesomehow symbolically risk To
enliven your nervous system atthe same time.
But it has to be the rightlevel of risk safety, that sweet
spot in there.
So we take a closer look at howthat's working and what other
circumstances around werebasically just Triggering off
(56:11):
the same narrative that a sexualfantasy would.
And then, sooner or later, youfind that that that actually is
sexual fantasy.
It's the same as their sexualfantasies and it just happened
to be triggered in a real-lifecircumstance.
Ellie Goode (56:27):
That makes sense.
Yeah, so it's like a fantasycould almost just be, like I
think you said, a memory, or,yeah, like it makes me wonder.
Yeah, like I think typically,like I would have thought of as
a fantasy, of being this reallyout there, adventurous kind of
experience, you know, or Way outthere.
(56:48):
But I mean, like you'rementioning, it could be just be
a really simple Thing of wantingsomething to happen with a
person, like a kiss in thehallway, for instance.
It doesn't have to be thisreally big, full blown, huge
things and that's really coolYeah.
Artemisia de Vine (57:04):
Yeah, even even if you don't want to go
into the past to draw on, you'dwant to go into the future as In
, i'm gonna have a really hotdate this Friday night and I'm
now really excited thinkingabout what might happen.
I'm excited by this part of itand that part of it and You know
I can feel myself, you know,getting ignited just
(57:25):
anticipating it.
But even sometimes people havesexual fantasies just about body
types and body and sex acts,just flushes in their mind's eye
Of certain things.
But even that, once you take acloser look at it, it has an
entire narrative within it.
That body type is not just thatbody type.
It represents something and ittriggers something in you.
(57:49):
So, and and that's one of thegenius things about this, this
way of Approaching sexualfantasies is you realize you
separate the essence from behindthe fantasy, from the fantasy
self.
Like I said before, you don'tneed to literally have That body
type in order to trigger thatsame mechanism, once you
understand what it is that wasbeing triggered.
I was never a, i was never aConventionally attractive person
(58:16):
and, you know, as a verysuccessful sex worker, because I
was triggering the thing behindtheir desires.
Hey, so You know it can be done.
Ellie Goode (58:28):
That's cool, that's so interesting, and so so I
guess you sort of mentioned thepower and the different Levels
that sexual fantasies can takeyou.
so maybe, if we can expand onthat, like, where sort of what
are the sort of states That youcan go when you really go into
(58:50):
these fantasies and unlock them?
Artemisia de Vine (58:53):
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so the very first levelis orgasm, as we said before.
So you know your little tinyego.
Death is, is, is is alreadyachieved just by living out your
fantasy.
And you can do that just byfantasizing in your head.
You don't have to actuallybring it out out of your head
(59:13):
and you can, if you want to nowbring it to a level where you
can connect and play and useyour fantasy as a Game to
interact with your partner.
You're including your partnerin it.
Now You bring it out of yourhead and into your bed, then
(59:36):
You're living the story.
Now, right, you're not justWatching the movie on the screen
, you're actually an actor onthe stage.
Now, right, and this is, thisis now.
You're up to your level offeeling, talking about being
embodied.
You're now, you're gonna feeleven more.
Now You also your subconsciousdoesn't know the difference
(59:57):
between In acting something andsomething really happening.
So if it feels as though Thatego Fear has been appeased
through the play, it justreleases that the Switch and the
ego turns off and you now gotaccess to the next part.
So now you can connect withyour partner.
(01:00:19):
It's not just in your head nowThat which was keeping you
separate from them, and it wasnot.
It's in your body and it in theplay, and it's now connecting
with somebody And this can thenmove into this wonderful flow
state, which is another level ofof letting go of ego and moving
(01:00:40):
into just a slightly deepererotic state of consciousness.
So imagine you know flow state.
What does that mean?
Well, just imagine You know adog in the park running like for
the pure joy of it, without anythought, just absolutely
delighting, being in a body andbeing alive.
(01:01:02):
That that's not analyzinganything, it's not worried about
whether it's being a good boyor not, it's just running.
So we've entered into this nextlevel and flow state can also
be highly concentrated, so youcan be really present and also
completely let go and surrenderat the same time.
That's one of the wonderfulparadoxes of flow state.
(01:01:23):
It's this, it's beautiful, butthat's just the first layer of
where you can go.
Then, if you want to get peoplewho are into BDSM and kinky play
often talk about going intosubspace And subspace Emission,
space, space, and people alsogot talk about going into top
(01:01:45):
space the person who'sdominating or leading or doing
doing can also go into thisintense flow state of Pure
experiencing.
You know, in play And that canfeel Lots of, there's lots of
different states under theumbrella of subspace.
Some people are talking aboutjust getting an endorphin high,
(01:02:06):
right And so, and that's alsoreally yummy as well.
But some of them are reallydeep where you just feel like,
whoa, i'm now one with theuniverse.
Whoa, what is this?
What is this?
This is beautiful cartoon thatwas been made by ES jewel Yes,
(01:02:30):
that's the cartoonist and It isof a Dominatrix Standing above a
collared slave.
He's on his hands and knees andshe's she's got the collar and
she's yanking his head up andmaking him look at the night sky
Of all of the styles ofeternity and she's like see how
(01:02:53):
small and insignificant you are.
This dominates its existingexistential dominatrix.
This is how small andinsignificant you are.
And and now, as a result,you're so small, your ego
dissipates.
That's the opposite way ofblowing your ego up.
(01:03:14):
The other way is making itreally small and then it
dissipates and it disappears,and then like they're free of it
and they're like, wow, now I'vegot this feeling of awe and
wonder.
So this is the kind of feelingthat comes with the next layer
of these erotic states ofconsciousness is awe and wonder.
And and then you start havingthat those Not existential
(01:03:36):
crisis, but existential glee Wow, that's cool.
Yeah, wow, this is amazing andfrom there, yeah, there, people
have all sorts of experiencesonce that part of them is open
from there.
So I think that's a deeplyvaluable You know, that's where
(01:03:58):
our creativity lives, our lifeforce, sex.
Sex is our creative life force.
You can you experience yourself, and and and each other On a in
a whole different way from thatplace, when your egos are out
of the way.
It's one of the most preciouslife experiences you can have to
share this state with another.
When both of your egos are outof the way, it is just Beautiful
(01:04:22):
, and sexual fantasies are theexact map to that, and even the
smutty things Of putting a gagin their mouth and a butt plug
up in the collar, on his neck,and then saying you're so little
, you're so little, you'renothing, and now you're free.
Now you're free, now there'seternity.
(01:04:43):
That's cool, but how do youeven begin this?
Well, okay, all right, allright.
So yeah, that actually took somedoing to work out how on earth
Okay, i'm having theseexperiences in the divinery,
sitting people down on my redvelvet couch And then, and then
they go away and they have noidea how to get back there again
(01:05:03):
, because I did all the work, iwas the one who could see what
was happening in the, in thenarrative of their fantasy, and
I knew how to bring it to lifein a consensual game that that
is going to benefit both of us.
Now I'm teaching people how todo it for themselves and for
each other, and I developed awhole framework instead of tools
(01:05:24):
, which you know, because it wasthe method that I use in the
diviner.
We just simply call it thedivinery method.
So, um, but we begin.
The foundation of all of itstarts from Forming a, rewiring
your relationship to desireitself, actively forming a
relationship with this part Thatsends you those fantasies in
(01:05:46):
the first place and embodiedlevel, feel the sensations
interact with an intentionallylevel of relationship from there
and then Then we build intoThen.
Then, once you've got that inplace, you know how to be
present, you know how to, how tonot project your fantasies.
Then we can come back to okay,what are your fantasies.
(01:06:07):
How can we bring this sameclever mechanism to life, in
play in real life?
play in and have that effect?
And one of the first thingsthat people can do to feel into
that is Start expanding thatmoment of satiation.
All right, desire is wanting,desire is I want, and you don't
(01:06:35):
want what you already have.
It's an urge of traits, amagnetic force pulling you to
something that you don'tcurrently have, an emotion that
you need for fulfilling.
Sometimes we think it's a carWe need to buy, but you know
it's.
It's really what you'd feel ifyou.
What state would you get toaccess that you don't currently
(01:06:59):
have, if you'd fulfilled thatfantasy?
right, this is where we start.
And then you imagine what thatwanting feels like now.
Imagine the satiation ofgetting that thing behind the
symbol.
Like now you have the feelingof freedom and power that you
didn't have before by imaginingbuying that car.
Now you you've And you feelwanted because how sexy are you
(01:07:25):
with that car.
You've got all the Those needsare now met now, what can you
access inside of yourself thatyou didn't before?
now?
you can feel the satiation ofthis need being met, of the
transformation being met by, bysymbolically living out that
story.
Okay, and most people, whenthey have that satiation, they
(01:07:46):
just feel it for a moment.
They could, they feel it, youknow Whoa, i thrill it, and a
and a lighting up and and eventheir heart can expand for a
moment And it can feel like.
But then it stops and they andthey're distracted by something
else, often because they Theydidn't actually satiate the real
need behind the, the wanting.
They actually went and boughtthe car instead of getting the
(01:08:07):
feeling but anyway, yeah, um, ifthe first thing you can start
to do is just focus on thatmoment of satiation, what does
satiation feel like in your body?
You know your guards are downtemporarily, it's right.
Then your guards are down, youfeel more alive, you feel more
(01:08:27):
expanded, you can feel more ofyourself, you can feel even a
euphoria rushing through yourbody and tingles, and It can.
Your self doubt has gone even inthat moment, right?
Ah, what does that feel like?
Let's, let's just sink intothat element and expand it,
instead of just rushing past itAnd thinking I need to go
(01:08:48):
quickly get another hit in orderto get it again.
I've got it right now.
What happens if I sit in it andexpand it and breathe it?
Ah, this is the first step ofteaching myself how to follow
desire, to get to these statesof consciousness It's guiding me
to This is learning how to tobe, have a more conscious
(01:09:12):
interaction with it here.
So that's and you can.
Uh, um, i've got a littleexercise you can go and do on On
um my website if you want tojust try it for yourself and see
if it's for you That you canaccess there.
But, yeah, that's, that's how webegin this process, if you want
to, if you want to explore thisin your life.
Ellie Goode (01:09:33):
Yeah, amazing.
It seems like it's almost, iguess, an aligning of both The
mind and the body, because it'slike the the mind is what helps
to create the desire, but thenit's dropping into the feeling
as well.
In the body It's, would you say, that sort of how it works,
like it's a, like you need both,not not just one and not just
(01:09:54):
the other.
Artemisia de Vine (01:09:55):
Yeah, it's bringing all the whole of us in.
If we want to be, if we want toTo be um accepted, we need to
accept the whole of ourselves.
If we want to Feel the fullpotential of our erotic cells,
we need to include the whole ofourselves, not cut one off for
the other.
So It's, it's the, it's thenext step after you've learned
(01:10:20):
how to be embodied and present.
Ellie Goode (01:10:22):
Yeah, that's cool, sounds very interesting.
Um, yeah, so if people want tolearn more about what you do, um
, and you know, check out someof your work, where can they?
where can they find out more?
Artemisia de Vine (01:10:38):
Okay, my website is the best place to go,
uh, artamizia divine dot com.
And it's best to join mymailing list rather than
following me on social media,because anything to do with sex,
especially sex work, routinelygets kicked off everything.
So I don't invest a lot Intrying to build my social media
because I just know it's amatter of time before I lose it.
(01:11:00):
So follow my actual newsletterif you'd like to keep getting
blogs and insights and into howthe erotic psyche works.
I'm pretty generous, i I liketo share a lot.
I'm also writing a book, uh,called the value of sexual
fantasies, and I'm currentlyjust launched a um, a
Kickstarter to, because I'mgoing to self publish so I can
(01:11:21):
keep full control over my sexwork narrative Rather than have
somebody sank to, you knowcensor it so, um, but that costs
a lot more money than yourealize to pay for editors and
audiobooks and pr and all sortsof things.
So I'm launched a kickstart.
(01:11:42):
If you'd like to get to Supportthat and see this work get out
into the world, that would bereally great.
But otherwise, go straight tothe, the website, and try that
exercise that I mentioned beforeand just try it for yourself.
And if you're interested, thenum, there's, you can start
learning the desire, compass andthen, and then start Possibly
getting some private coaching oror access the online course or
(01:12:04):
something from there.
So there's lots of ways for youto be able to begin this and to
have these tools for yourself.
Ellie Goode (01:12:13):
Wonderful, wonderful, um.
I'll be sure to put other linksin there in the show notes for
anyone listening.
And Thank you so much I'd amAsia for coming on and and
sharing all your knowledge andwisdom.
It's been an incredible chat,so much appreciated, yeah, fun.
Thank you so much for having meand that is a wrap.
Thank you so much for listeningand remember before you go,
(01:12:34):
please smash the five starreading or review button if you
haven't already, and I willcatch you all next time.
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