Ayla Inja — Narcissistic Parents, Emotional Abuse, The Science Behind Suicide & Childhood Trauma, Unhealthy Relationships, and More - #33

Ready to unpack the enormity of your childhood, parents and their life-altering impact on you? 

Join us for a profound conversation with Ayla Inja, a researcher from Douglas Mental Health Institute, as we traverse the shadowy pathways of psychological trauma, narcissistic parenting, and emotional abuse. 

Ayla leads us on this journey to shed light on the intricate mechanics of our ego, defence mechanisms, and the reactions embedded in our nervous systems.

We discuss the dynamics of a narcissistic family and the implications of emotional abuse on children. We explore the fight, flight, freeze, and fawn responses that act as our nervous system's bodyguards, and how they display themselves in our adulthood.

Moreover, we dive into the awakening process, Golden Child Syndrome, and the shadow self - complex concepts that are part of the trauma narrative.

In our final segments, we explore some of the causes of suicide, its correlations with trauma, and the science behind childhood maltreatment leading to suicidal thoughts in adulthood. 

We explore the cycle of depression and anxiety, with Ayla providing key strategies to prevent spiralling into these debilitating states. 

Most importantly, we talk about the importance of self-awareness, self-reflection, and recognition of our dysfunctional behaviours and thought patterns that chain us to our past. 

Tune in for an enlightening conversation that promises transformation and growth.

Read Ayla's article here: https://findingyourselfagain.com/blog/the-spiritual-awakening-faux-pas

Connect with Ayla: https://findingyourselfagain.com/

Past episodes and show notes are located here: https://www.sexmoneyrage.com/podcast

"Genuinely thank you for creating this space for people like-minded to talk openly and feel OK to talk about these things." Beau, Australia

Disclaimer:
I do not promote trying plant medicine or psychedelics (they are a whole other beast). All information provided is for general information and educational purposes only. Please consult with your doctor and do your own research before diving in. There are risks involved, it can interact with certain medications, and it's illegal in most Western countries.

I'm not a doctor, therapist, or counsellor, and nothing said on the podcast is a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, treatment, or a professional therapeutic relationship. All content is intended to provide general health information for educational purposes only.

Episode Transcript

Ellie Goode (00:04):
Welcome to the Sex Money and Rage podcast.

Ayla Inja (00:08):
If you take accountability for your life
right now, it helps you to notfeel so not in control, and it
helps you to feel less helplessin terms of the trajectory of
your life and you get to choosehow you want to end up in life.
I truly believe that we allhave the power within us to
manifest the life that we want,and we are in control of our

(00:30):
destiny.
No one else, just you, and Ithink that's why it's so
important to do the work andhold yourself accountable and
also be aware, so that you canend up having the life that you
want.

Ellie Goode (00:42):
Welcome back to Sex , money and Rage.
I'm your host, ellie, and thankyou for joining in to another
episode.
If you're enjoying this show,please hit the subscribe or
follow button and make surenotifications are ticked so that
every time there's a newepisode it will pop up on your
phone and you'll just be likelisten to me, which you should
do.
You should definitely listen.
So if you're wondering whythere's been a six week break

(01:04):
between episodes, it's because Iwas getting absolutely slammed
and struggling to keep up.
So good news is I've hired apodcast editor, which I was like
why didn't I do this sooner?
So, anyway, super excited aboutthat to be able to delegate all
of that to someone else so thatI can just focus on the
interviews and everything.
So huge, huge shout out toDavid, who is editing this

(01:25):
episode and fixing all my littlemistakes.
Thank you for all your help.
It is much appreciated.
So today I had a reallyinteresting chat with Ayla Inger
, who is a research assistantover at Douglas Mental Health
Institute in Quebec, canada.
She does a lot of researcharound psychological trauma, and
so we talked about, you know,narcissistic parents, emotional

(01:47):
abuse in the home.
We also talked about suicide,the nervous system, what happens
when you go into fight orflight response, all of that
really really interesting stuffthat often doesn't get talked
about.
So it was a really, really goodepisode.
I think there's so much valuein this if you're listening, and
in addition to Ayla being aresearch assistant, she also

(02:08):
runs a blog and you can checkher workout, which is really
interesting to read over atfindingyourselfagaincom.
So that's it for me.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand, again, if you haven't
already, please hit thesubscribe or follow button and
let's jump in.
Welcome back to Sex Money andRage.
Today I am here with Ayla, andAyla is a clinical researcher

(02:31):
and we are going to have aninteresting conversation today.
So firstly, welcome, ayla.
Thank you for coming on thepodcast.
Thank you for having me.
I'm glad to be here.
Yeah, awesome.
And so I have actually found yourandomly through a Google
search when I was looking upspiritual faux pas, and your
website was the first result andit was actually a really,
really good article, which I'lllink to in the show notes for

(02:53):
anyone interested.
But yeah, I just thought therewas some really good sort of
quotes.
I'll just bring up a couplebecause they're really cool.
So you talked about your ego isnot the enemy.
It's the subconscious part ofyou that serves to protect.
Based on conditioning fromprevious life experiences.
Growing up with an overlycritical parent, your ego might

(03:14):
perceive that, or any form ofcriticism as a threat.
So your body goes into fight orflight, and then you might
choose to react by attack.
Sorry, choose to fight byattacking.
Flight, which is withdrawing,freezing, which is dissociating,
or fawn, which is peoplepleasing mode.
So, yeah, what?
We'll sort of get into a bitabout that in a little bit.

(03:35):
But what inspired you to startyour blog or your website?

Ayla Inja (03:40):
So I think you pretty much summed up everything that
I talked about in general on myblog.
So I started this blog, whichI'm aiming hopefully to turn
into a book.
So I touch upon these topicsbecause I became a certified,
informed trauma-informedpractitioner so that I can psych
educate people on the pitfallsor detriments of developmental

(04:03):
trauma or having a chaotic ornon-traditional childhood
upbringing.
So I think, coinciding with thetheme of your podcast, I find
the concept of trauma is notonly an enigma to many, but
actually very, very taboo.
It's also not often discussedin the context of family

(04:24):
dynamics or childhood upbringing.
So I think it's important toraise awareness regarding these
things and, you know, just starta conversation amongst our
generation and the media aboutwhat developmental trauma is
versus what event trauma is,which is what we usually see in
the media, which leads to whatwe know as PTSD and you know

(04:46):
it's a word that's thrown arounda lot in the media.
You know you hear a lot ofpeople talking about trauma and
gaslighting and things like that, and it's just.
I think it's just important toset the record straight about
what it really means and how itimpacts you.

Ellie Goode (05:05):
Amazing, amazing.
I totally agree because I thinkyou know I've talked to people
and they're like oh, I'm nottraumatized, and I think there's
, I think, quite a bigmisunderstanding of like what is
trauma and how it can impactpeople.
So I guess, sort of youmentioned, you can have
event-based trauma versusdevelopmental trauma.
What, first of all, I guess,maybe what would you describe
trauma as being, and then maybewe can talk about the two

(05:28):
different types of event anddevelopmental.

Ayla Inja (05:32):
Trauma in general is a is an event that disrupts our
nervous system and causes anarray of different symptoms.
So within the realm of traumawe try to differentiate between
the two.
So we have event trauma, whichis usually a single, one-off
event, which usually occurs inadulthood because we can

(05:52):
attribute our own meaning to it.
So that could be like sexualassault, you know, going to war,
things like that and it causesa.
It causes a dysregulation onour nervous system which causes
what we know as PTSD.
So you get recurrent flashbacks, emotional dysregulation.
The difference between this typeof trauma and developmental

(06:12):
trauma is developmental traumais usually small, recurrent
instances that happen betweenthe child and the caregiver
growing up, and it's usuallybefore we have an awareness of
that.
Something negative or bad ishappening to us and it registers
in pretty much every singlepart of our of our body.
You know our nervous system,our, our limbic system, our

(06:34):
hypothalamus, our emotional andit impacts the holistic overview
of our upbringing and thisusually causes something called
complex PTSD.
And even though both complexPTSD and PTSD involve symptoms
of psychological and behavioralstress, responses like

(06:54):
flashbacks and hypervigilance,the difference is that people
would see PTSD.
They traditionally havesymptoms such as chronic and
extensive issues with likeidentity issues.
You know having a problem withforming a sense of self,
emotional regulation, having anissue with forming healthy

(07:16):
relationships.
So this is kind of how wedifferentiate the two and with
regards to developmental trauma,we also separate that into
another two stems.
We have something calledseparation trauma.
Separation trauma, which isbasically when you have
emotional abuse from yourcaregiver, and then we also have

(07:39):
neglect trauma, which isbasically when you don't get the
the love and appreciation andvalidation that you need from
your caregiver.

Ellie Goode (07:50):
Okay, perfect, perfect.
So I guess I guess an examplewould be sort of you mentioned
neglect, so that could be theparent not being around, like
not physically present.
It could be not not taking aninterest in the child, or what
was that, the one you mentioned?

Ayla Inja (08:06):
Sorry, besides neglect, Separation trauma,
which is emotional abuse.
Yeah, so, under the realm ofemotional abuse, I would say
it's sort of like like beingbeing forced into doing things
you don't want to, beingcriticized constantly.
Basically, having a helicopterparent you know and having
conditional love, I say, wouldalso go underneath that, where

(08:27):
you feel like you need toperform or deliver on a certain
aspect in order to receive lovefrom your caregiver, which
really causes a lot of turmoil,emotional turmoil in the child's
brain because they never feellike they're good enough.

Ellie Goode (08:39):
And I mentioned two things like like guilt,
tripping or manipulation as well, from the parent to the child.
And I think it's tricky because, like most people have probably
experienced manipulation from aparent or a friend or a boss or
a colleague, but it's verydifficult, in a way, to pin down
because it's it's mental andit's emotional.

(09:02):
It's not something supertangible that you can clearly
say oh, this is happening.
You just feel like you knowsomething's off.
Or you just feel like you said,really, you know, like this
hypercritical parent, and toreally then categorize it as
this is actually a form ofemotional abuse, I think, like
for a lot of people, theywouldn't maybe realize that it

(09:23):
is abuse and it's just, yeah, Ithink, like you said, bringing
awareness to that for people sothat they have that
understanding of what's going on.

Ayla Inja (09:31):
Yeah, and like developmental trauma, is so
subtle that, and pervasive thatit's become virtually invisible
to the naked eye.
And this is something that Ilike to stress upon in my blog
when I write about these things,because I talk a lot about how
relational and developmentaltrauma leads to very

(09:52):
non-traditional forms of youknow PTSD symptoms.
So it manifests, in a way, interms of self-destructive
tendencies or self-sabotagingtendencies, which and they could
also be high functioning aswell.
So to the average person, youmay look like you're doing fine,
but you do very small thingsthat are actually detrimental to

(10:14):
you and the relationshipsaround you.
So this is why it's very, veryhard to pinpoint.
It's also very hard toacknowledge within yourself that
you did go or you did grow upin a narcissistic household,
because no one wants to likewake up and turn around and be
like yeah, my parents sucked,you know.
So it's really, really hard totalk about and I think it's

(10:35):
important to just shed light onthat and raise awareness and,
you know, let people know thatit's okay, you're not the only
one that went through somethinglike that.

Ellie Goode (10:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think having anarcissistic or manipulative or
emotionally abusive parent andtrying to talk to them about it
or bring that into the light andsay you know, this is my
experience, it's then just goingto pretty much blow up in your
face because you know thesetactics of manipulation and
gaslighting and you know turningit around on the child is just

(11:05):
going to happen again inevitably.
So I think you're likeeducation, like you said, and
resources are really important.

Ayla Inja (11:13):
Definitely yeah, and you know it's very hard to bring
up, not only to your parentsbut to the people around you,
because you have, you know, alot of people don't understand
what a narcissistic familydynamic is exactly and
especially with the oldergeneration, they have normalized

(11:33):
so much so being in that way,that, and that's the reason why
it gets passed down veryfrequently.
You know, I mean there'sobviously a rise, especially
with Gen Z.
There's a rise of consciousparenting and you know people
are starting to understand thatthere's a certain way to parent
and there's a certain way totalk to a kid and there's a
certain way to enforce autonomyupon your child.

(11:55):
But obviously this was notaccepted back in the day and I
think the reason why a lot of ushad parents like that is
because we tend to learn fromthose that came before us and so
it gets passed down in anenvironmental way and a genetic
way.
You know, intergenerationaltrauma is so common there's not

(12:17):
much that we can do about it.
I think the important thing isjust to become aware of it and
make sure that you at leastbreak the cycle of
intergenerational trauma andenforce those conscious
parenting practices.

Ellie Goode (12:30):
Absolutely, and so you sort of we've sort of
touched on narcissism.
I know that it's getting moretraction and more awareness
around it, but what would yousort of describe narcissism as
for someone who doesn't have agood grasp on it?
Or gaslighting or some of thesetechniques?
Yeah, what would it look like?

Ayla Inja (12:47):
So it's actually a very, very, very hard concept to
explain, because you havenarcissistic personality
disorder, which is awell-defined disorder within the
DSM, and there are certaincriteria that fit underneath
that, and then you havenarcissism on a dimension.
So I believe, at least to acertain extent, that we all

(13:09):
display narcissistic traits oneway or another, and it's on a
dimension.
So some of us are display moretraits, some of us display less
traits, and I will be the firstto admit that.
I think that because of mychaotic upbringing and some of
the things that I went through,I actually also displayed
narcissistic trait In that senseI would discard people.

(13:32):
I would use, maybe,relationships or people to fill
a void.
I needed a constant source ofsupply, whether that came from
drugs or sex or validation orexternal validation or even
achievements.
I think that that kind ofencompasses narcissistic
behaviors in general and the waythat people might display those

(13:54):
traits.
When it comes to family ingeneral, I think a narcissistic
family is one where the needs ofthe parents are the focus and
the children are expected tobend over backwards to meet
those needs.
So usually parents who adopt anarcissistic dynamic, they tend
to view their children as anextension of themselves, rather

(14:14):
than viewing the child as anindividual, autonomous being.
And then they use those methodsthat I described before, so of
conditional love, of gaslighting, of reinforcement or even
punishment, to try and mold thechild into however they see fit.
And this causes the child tofeel like they have to portray

(14:35):
their authentic self just togain the love and approval and
connection that they need fromtheir caregiver, when in reality
we should be gettingunconditional love from our
caregivers anyway.
And obviously this manifestslater on in adulthood as
becoming a people pleasing, youknow, person that constantly

(14:57):
needs love and validation fromother people and you start to
betray your own self just togain that from other people.

Ellie Goode (15:03):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I definitely can relateand thank you for sharing your
experience as well.
I think, as you were talking,it sort of seems like ultimately
it's coming back to safety, asense of safety in the nervous
system, and if the parent isthreatening that in the child,
the child's going to act in away to try and keep themselves
safe, like you said, even ifthat means abandoning the

(15:25):
authentic self, which is reallyunfortunate.
So it's interesting how yousort of mentioned in your blog
about the fight or flight andthe freeze and withdrawing, and
I think these are all tools orreactions we have in our system,
our nervous system, to keep ussafe when we're a child and then
as we grow up as well.

Ayla Inja (15:44):
That's true, yeah, so I touched upon a little bit
about the concept of the ego,and the ego is essentially just
our identity, right?
It's our sense of self.
It's that subconscious part ofyou that we formed in childhood
in order to protect us.
So it allows us to determinewho we are, what our values are,
how we want to progress forwardin life.
The thing is is that your egoserves to protect you, but not

(16:10):
always in the most functional ofways, and so there is a there
is a line that can get crossedwhen your ego starts to operate
in a dysfunctional way.
So, as I mentioned in my blog Ispoke about, if you grew up with
an overly critical parent, yourego will perceive any form of
criticism that you receive inyour adult life as, even if it's

(16:30):
constructive, as a threat, andso that when that happens and
you and your body is hypervigilant to any form of threat,
you go into flight or fight mode.
So you either you can eitherreact by, you know, fighting, so
that's becoming attackingtowards another person or
situation.
Flight, which is withdrawingand dissociating.

(16:53):
Freezing, which is, you know,dissociating completely from
your identity, and fawning,which is people pleasing, so
it's those people that have alack of boundaries and are
constantly trying to make theother person happy, just to you
know, walk on actuals and justto maintain the peace, even if
that means dishonoring your ownneeds and your own body.

Ellie Goode (17:16):
Yeah, and so I guess then a question I would
have is for people listening aswell.
For myself is yep, thisresonates.
You know, put my hand up likecool, I'm in this category.
So then what?
What's the I guess, the processforward.
So I guess first step would beawareness and and saying you
know, yes, I had narcissisticparents or I went through

(17:36):
emotional abuse.
What do I do about it?
What do I do about it?
How do I work through this?

Ayla Inja (17:40):
I think I kind of created my own system for what I
determine as the awakeningprocess.
So I'll describe a little bitabout my story.
So I grew up and what I like tosay is a non traditional or
chaotic household Sorry, mom anddad, if you're listening, but
it was it was known to be verychaotic and very disruptive in

(18:03):
some way, and I was a child ofdivorce, which was very
difficult, but not only that.
My dad was thrown into, youknow, the world of single
parenthood and he had to raisedaughters on his own and also
deal with his own, had to battlewith his own demons of going
through a divorce and dealingwith the shit that life throws

(18:26):
at you.
And I think my dad, knowingthat he did the best that he
could.
He still made his fair share ofmistakes in terms of what he
expected and the way he wantedus to overachieve constantly.
And I was I talk about this onmy blog as well.
I think I was the golden child,and so I grew up feeling like I

(18:47):
needed to be perfect, I neededto people please, I needed to
over extend myself in order toreceive love or affection from
the people, that people aroundme, and because of the Golden
Child Syndrome that I grew upwith.
I.
I was a victim to the blamegame, in the sense that I

(19:07):
believe that I could never bewrong and everyone else around
me was always wrong, and I willalways point the finger at other
people, because I was so afraidof tapping into my shadow self,
which essentially is the darkparts, or the dark repressed
parts of ourself that we don'tlike to acknowledge Because I

(19:27):
didn't want to deal with it, andthat happens to a lot of us.
And it was one thing to becomeaware of it, which I, which I
name as like the oh moment,which is kind of like.
I kind of had this revelationone day where I woke up and I
said, if I continue down thispath, I'm going to end up alone,
Because I would just, as I saidbefore, I would like to discard

(19:48):
people.
I would, I would, you know, Iwould use people for personal
gain or to fill a void, whichwere a lot of marquee traits.
But then I started to tap intothe concept of, you know, the
spiritual world and shadow selfand whatnot, and this is also
where I noticed that, or what Ilike to call is the spiritual

(20:10):
path.
This is where I noticed that Iwas doing something called
spiritual bypassing.
So that's essentially where youuse spirituality as a crutch to
to avoid dealing with thedarker parts of yourself.
This is where I kind ofdescribed like yoga and
meditating and journal promptingand all of that as a way to try

(20:30):
and feel like you're makingprogression in in the world of
spirituality, but it's notreally any form of real deep,
raw inner work that you're doing, because it's all on a
superficial level.
And then eventually you start torealize that those things only
make you feel good momentarily,but they don't really doesn't
really stop you from stillbecoming triggered or still

(20:54):
reacting in a in a negative way.
Then, after a while, when yourealize that those things don't
work and you start to actuallylook upon the deeper, darker
parts of yourself andacknowledge that you are not
perfect and acknowledge that youknow, you have this old shit
moment of like wow, I'm, I'mmaybe really not a good person.
And it's during this phase thatI think you start to transition

(21:18):
from reacting to responding andyou get this kind of you know
revelation that being rightfulor validated is not really the
priority and you actually beginto value interpersonal harmony
with other people instead.
And that's when you start torealize that love is all
encompassing and it's within youand it's within all people, and

(21:40):
you start to you start to seethat good and bad are not true
things but rather sociallyconstructed labels that keep us
in this constant state ofanxiety and depression.
And I think it's important notonly for people to become aware
of their past, but also reallydo the work and discover, not

(22:07):
what is wrong with you,necessarily, but what are the
dysfunctional or negative traitsthat you're displaying or the
dysfunctional behaviors thatyou're displaying.
And so I talk a lot about, or Itry to advise people a lot, to
use journaling in a veryproactive way to reflect upon

(22:28):
the moments where you probablydidn't feel your best or didn't
do your best, or you felt guiltyin some way, or you did
something disruptive that maybemade you feel horrible the next
day.
And in a case in my situation,I think it was that I would, you
know, I would go out drinkingor I would hyper sexualize
myself in order to feel good.

(22:48):
And even though I felt good inthe moment, I would always wake
up the next day feeling horrible.
And I started to journal onthose instances and as time went
by and I would look back on it,I would see, I would see the
trajectory or the patterns thatI was, I was, you know, creating

(23:09):
or following and I think itreally, really helped me to just
ground myself and stop doingthose behaviors.

Ellie Goode (23:16):
Essentially, yeah, awesome, Awesome.
So you have, like the, the, the,so much good stuff that you
said in there, but sort of itwas like you know, you have this
oh shit moment, like okay, afucked up kind of thing, and
then you know you sort of shiftfrom that reacting to responding
and then seeing that, yeah,good and bad, it just labels as

(23:37):
just a story and reallyreflecting on it and it sounds
almost like you know, reallyjust taking responsibility for,
for how you feel, how you actand and so on.
And, like you said, you know youmentioned spiritual bypassing,
which I think is a really bigpoint, a really big thing that a
lot of people do, and also I'mnot aware of just the impact of

(23:59):
it.
Like, I mean, I've done it forsure, I know tons of people who
have done it and maybe it's justpart of the process, but I
think it's like bringingawareness to that of of you know
, like a lot of these thingslike journaling, meditation, you
know, like you said, yoga, eventhese things, like you said,
scratch the surface maybe orhelp in the moment, but to
really get into that deep workand really go into the shadows

(24:20):
and the darkest parts ofourselves and bring light and
bring love and really bring selfacceptance.
You know, I think, like yousaid, takes a lot of you know,
whether it's journaling andreally reflecting, whether it's,
for me, a big part of it wasdoing somatic therapy and plant
medicine and exploring, you know, these different parts of

(24:41):
ourselves that we've, you know,locked away or shunned or
disconnected from because we'rea ashamed of them, and really
bringing everything kind of backinto alignment, which is, yeah,
it's really cool.
I really like the process.

Ayla Inja (24:54):
Yeah, I think you actually summarized it perfectly
.
And that's not to say thatthose things are not important,
because I think they are andthey do work and they do help
momentarily to help you or atleast, at least you know, thrust
you into the process.
I just think it's important tonot become dependent on those
things Because when that happens, then you start to, you know,

(25:17):
neglect the deeper, moreimportant work that you need to
be doing.
You know, I mean, I thinkhealing is an integrative
process and you need toincorporate all of those things.
I just think it's important toacknowledge or realize that
there is a lot more that needsto be scratched beyond the

(25:38):
surface.
But it's difficult and I knowthat it's very difficult for
people to turn around and pointthe finger back at themselves
and say you know I'm, I'm kindof a shitty person and I kind of
need to work on myself.
It's, it's, I mean, your egowill.
It's very hard for your ego toallow you to do that right,
because it's protecting you andwants you to have a stable sense

(25:59):
of identity, wants you to feelgood about yourself.
But I think part of doing thework is to just, you know, quiet
your ego.
There's no way to actuallyerase your ego, but it's just to
quiet down your ego, especiallyin moments where you're feeling
triggered.
And I think I think the wordtrigger is a very interesting
concept because it's somethingthat in our generation today we

(26:20):
use a lot the word triggered.
So I think I think it'simportant to just acknowledge
that it's in those moments that,when you do get triggered, you
move from reacting to responding, as you said, and you just
become more in tune with your,you know authentic self, your
values, you know responding tothe situation rather than

(26:42):
reacting to whatever youridentity thinks it should be or
whatever the situation thinks itshould be, and just becoming a
more calm and clear headed andgrounded person.

Ellie Goode (26:55):
And I think doing shadow work and reconnecting
with your inner child really,really helps with Absolutely,
and I love what you mentioned aswell about, like you know, we,
all you know tend to lookoutside of ourselves for, like,
the problem and the threat,which I think makes sense from
an like, a biological standpoint, because you know, when animals
are in the wild, like, you'refocused externally, like where

(27:17):
is the threat?
You know how do I protectmyself, how do I escape.
And so I think it's naturalthat all of us do, you know,
look to an external, you know,thing for a threat, and
sometimes it is an externalthreat.
That's, I guess that's thetricky thing is, you know you
can have external threats, butthen a lot of it you come to
realize is just inside of us.

(27:38):
You know it's just internalwork, it's learning to release
the stuff that we couldn'trelease when we were children
because it wasn't safe for us tofeel these big emotions.
And so it's, like you said, withthe triggers, you know, getting
pushed and prodded by life inthese awesome ways.
It's like it allows this stuffto come up and gives it a voice.

(27:59):
And until, like, until we giveit a voice, I find and express
it in a healthy way, like withwhatever darkness, that is,
whether it's shame or guilt orsadness or grief or any of it or
all of it, you know, then it'slike it just stays stuck in us
and it just drains our lifeforce, energy, you know, and and

(28:21):
you know, to bring back to that, I guess, the nervous system.
You know it takes a lot ofenergy for your nervous system
to hold these emotions insidethe body and can disrupt, you
know, eating and appetite andall of these internal biological
processes.
So it's, it's, I find like I'msuper passionate and interested
about the like, the emotional,and then the impact that that

(28:41):
has on the body and the mind,and bringing, you know, bringing
both into alignment and and,like you said, quieting down the
mind and the ego and justgiving space for it all.

Ayla Inja (28:51):
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right that it does.
Trauma really does impact thenervous system, specifically the
sympathetic nervous system.
So what that does is itstimulates the production of the
adrenal hormones.
So that's what causes the fightand flight, the hyper vigilance
, the hyperactivity that need toconstantly be on the go, which
could manifest in many differentways, and also cortisol as well

(29:16):
, which is the stress hormone,which is very impactful on our
bodies.
I think, yeah, I think, you'reabsolutely right in the sense
that it does impact us on a very, very, very comprehensive,
systemic way.
You know, trauma has arelational, physiological,
biochemical, a psych, like apsychological and a behavioral

(29:38):
component, so really impacts usin every single way.
And, yeah, so I do think it'simportant to shed light on that
Definitely.

Ellie Goode (29:46):
Yeah for sure, I totally agree.
So I guess, for people whodon't totally identify as being
traumatized and struggle to,maybe they're putting the blame
on themselves instead of, say,putting the blame on their
parents or pointing the fingerat us.
Maybe they're pointing itinwards and saying like I'm a
piece of shit, I'm worthless.
Ra, ra, ra.
Would you like, would thisprocess, do you think, help

(30:10):
those people as well?
Like, is it helpful to sort of?
I guess it all just comes backto the awareness of what you're
doing to begin with, and thenyou can sort of build a map from
there.

Ayla Inja (30:21):
So it's actually interesting that you bring that
up, because it's not to say thatall of us have endured what we
would deem as trauma, but all ofus, as children, are like a
blank canvas right.
We all come into the worldextremely pure and then we are
impacted by the experiences thatwe go through, whether you want

(30:41):
to deem that as traumatic ornot.
But you didn't come into thisworld thinking I'm a piece of
shit.
You know, you, somethinghappened for you to develop that
, what we call in thepsychological realm a core
belief about yourself, whetherthat's being worthless or
unlovable or, you know, notworthy of good people and good

(31:03):
relationships, and that impactsyour internal working model of
the world, to basically how youview the world and how people,
how you think people view you,how you react to the world, etc.
And so forth.
And so something must havehappened for you to view
yourself that way, whetherthat's coming from, you know, a
bad relationship, your, yourcaregivers, your, your peers at

(31:25):
school.
It could have been anything,even a teacher, even a nanny, it
could have been literallyanything, but something had to
have happened, and I even have ablog titled, but nothing really
happened, because I hear this alot through people that I've
spoken to, through the storiesthat I hear about their
upbringing.
They always tell me but that'snot trauma.

(31:46):
I wasn't traumatized, which Ithink again goes back to how we
as a society or within the mediaclassify or, you know, define
trauma.
But in general, I do believethat if you do have
dysfunctional patterns in termsof behavior or a dysfunctional
way of thinking, whether that'sabout other people or about

(32:08):
yourself something has to havehappened, and I think it's
important to shed to yourself,to become aware of what that
moment, or several moments, werewhich caused you to become that
way.
The thing is is I want to stressthat it's not enough to just
become aware of your shittyupbringing or something bad that

(32:30):
has happened to you, because alot of people do that and a lot
of people can acknowledge thatthey went through something
negative, but then they resortto playing the victim and not
taking accountability for whatthey went through, which is why
it's also important for me tostress upon the fact that you
need to take accountability foryour own life.

(32:53):
It doesn't matter what hashappened to you, it doesn't
matter what someone did to you,it doesn't matter you know what
kind of upbringing you had.
What matters is how you do orhow you change your life with
the resources that you have now,and it's kind of I mean, it's
kind of a win-win on both ends,because if you take

(33:14):
accountability for you know yourlife right now, it helps you to
not feel so like not in controland it helps you to feel less
helpless in terms of you knowthe trajectory of your life and
you get to choose how you wantto end up in life.
I truly believe that we allhave the power within us to you

(33:34):
know, manifest the life that wewant, and we are in control of
our destiny.
No one else, just you, and Ithink it's that's why it's so
important to do the work, youknow and hold yourself
accountable and also be aware,so that you can end up having
the life that you want.

Ellie Goode (33:52):
Absolutely.
I think, yeah, I totally agree.
And especially like I think,yeah, like there's a it's a fine
balance of, yeah, like you said, processing what you went
through but not becoming avictim.
And you know, poor me and woeis me.
And I totally agree about whatyou said about you know, being a
victim makes you feel out ofcontrol.

(34:12):
You know, because this thing'shappening to me, I can't control
it, like this person's doingthis, and so it's very much I'm
out of control and this person'sin control.
It's a very disempowering placeto be.
So I think that's a really coolpoint and to really, you know,
like you said, have thataccountability for yourself and
taking that responsibility ofyou know I can't change what

(34:33):
happened to me, but I can changehow I respond and how I, how I
react and where I go from here.
And I think like that's a muchmore empowering way to look at
it and, like you said, you feelin control, you can take actions
, you can take steps to, likeyou said, go after what you want
and and yeah, I totally agreewith that it's cool.

Ayla Inja (34:52):
Yeah, I think it's actually a very good summary of
it.
It's, it's, you know, it's justacknowledging that you are in
control of your life, and I mean, sometimes it can be hard, but
if you do the work you can endup on top at the end, for sure,
for sure.

Ellie Goode (35:08):
And so I guess this might be segue a little bit
into like, because you are aclinical researcher, what is,
what is some of that?
I guess the science or the, theresearch that you've come
across, that you're like, wow,this is incredible, that if you
have anything that you can share, that kind of helps people,
yeah, understand.

Ayla Inja (35:26):
So so yeah, I'm currently a researcher at the
Douglas hospital here, based inMontreal, and I work at the
suicide epidemiology lab.
So we investigate the social,environmental and genetic
biomarkers that leads to thetrajectory of suicide, and one
of those happens to be childhoodmaltreatment.
And you know there was aproject that I was working on

(35:49):
recently so we haven't reallypublished the results yet, but I
thought we were.
We were working on a projectwhere we were looking at how
childhood maltreatment actuallyleads to, you know, certain
mediating factors, which I'll gointo, but then also leads to
more suicidal thoughts andbehaviors later in adulthood.

(36:10):
And some of those mediatingfactors are, as I spoke about,
the dysfunctional behaviors.
So, because trauma dysregulatesyour nervous system and it
causes you to become not onlyhypervigilant but also
hyperactive, it impacts thatpart of the brain, you know, the
frontal lobe, where it tellsyou to just calm the fuck down,

(36:32):
and because of that you end upbecoming impulsive and you end
up doing, you know, a lot ofthings that are maybe not
harmful to you in the moment butcould be harmful later.
So I would say that's like doinga lot of drugs or partying or
becoming hypersexual, and thoseare kind of gateway mechanisms
that would lead us intodepression and anxiety and then

(36:56):
suicidality, maybe later.
But it's those mediatingfactors that are extremely
important because we want to tryand focus on prevention and
because parenting doesn't comewith a handbook.
It's very hard for us to targetparenting and you know your
parent is going to say or dosomething that might fuck you up
later.
But it's those mediatingfactors and preventing you from

(37:18):
doing those dysfunctional thingsand dysfunctional behaviors,
and trying to control the stressor the effect that the stress
has on your body, in order tonot lead you into becoming, you
know, an impulsive person andreinforcing the cycle of
depression and anxiety in yourbody, which could lead to

(37:39):
suicide.

Ellie Goode (37:40):
Do you find that, like in the beginning, like it
starts with depression oranxiety and kind of snowballs
into suicide or what's sort ofthe journey that someone can
sort of slide into suicide?
Do you find?

Ayla Inja (37:53):
So I think there's a lot of trajectories for suicide,
so I think it's hard to justpinpoint one, but it doesn't
necessarily have to start withdepression and anxiety, but I
think it's just, in general,certain it's, it's, it's certain
behaviors that could, you know,lead you into you know, I don't

(38:16):
want to say cause, but couldlead you into developing
depression or anxiety.
And most of the time not always, but most of the time those
would display suicidaltendencies or have suicidal
thoughts and behaviors arebathing with some form of
depression or anxiety.
And I think it's kind ofbi-directional.
I think it's like a, it's acycle of reinforcement.

(38:37):
You know, if you are, if youare bathing with dark thoughts
or negative thoughts, you willtend to act out those thoughts
in dysfunctional ways, and thenthose dysfunctional behaviors
are going to reinforce youranxiety and depression even more
.
So it's kind of like a negativeloop, and so that's why I think
it's important to focus on, youknow, the dysfunctional

(38:59):
behaviors and target those,rather than just, you know,
maybe going to therapy not todiscredit CBT at all or therapy
at all but it's important totarget those dysfunctional
behaviors rather than just goingto therapy and, you know,
talking about your depressionand your anxiety, or even taking
medication to like, such asserotonin.

(39:19):
We uptake inhibitors to try andpause the depression, but I
just think it's really, reallyimportant to you know, shed
light on the fact that the waythat you respond to the world
and the way that you act withinthe world and the way that you
do certain things is areinforcer of the negative
thoughts that you have in yourhead.

(39:40):
So I just think it's importantto raise awareness regarding
that.

Ellie Goode (39:45):
Absolutely.
And so I guess, when you saysort of the behaviors around,
sort of suicide and how that canlike, by targeting those you
can sort of help prevent orreduce suicide.
What would be some of the, Iguess, behavioral tendencies
that you would expect to see insomeone with that is suicidal, I

(40:06):
guess.

Ayla Inja (40:07):
A lot of the time, within the research that we have
of suicide, that is linked toimpulsivity.
It's funny because trauma isactually linked to an increase
in impulsivity because itdisrupts that neural circuitry
that you have where you makemore rational decisions.
So I guess that's mainly thebig thing that I would say,

(40:29):
because, even if it's onaccident, impulsivity can lead
to a lot of things.
If you're an impulsive personand you don't really think much
before you act, you could be thetype of person that would drink
a lot and then you get into thecar and you get behind the
wheel and then you accidentallyend up killing yourself or

(40:52):
someone else.
And then even that, if youdrink a lot and you are already
bathing with your own innerdemons and depression and
alcohol in general kind oflowers your inhibition, so
you're more likely to do stupidthings when that happens.
And so I think yeah, I think,to answer your question I think

(41:15):
impulsivity is probably one ofthe biggest things that we would
see in patients who havesuicidality, which is linked to
trauma.
So I think it's an interestingloop as well.

Ellie Goode (41:25):
It's interesting, yeah, that it's all connected.
Yeah, I mean it makes a lot ofsense, especially what you
mentioned about the traumacausing you to be in that
sympathetic state in yournervous system to be more
hyperactive, hypervigilant andthen therefore more impulsive.
And so it's almost like bydealing with the trauma and

(41:46):
dealing with that root issue orthat root cause, it seems like
it would help fix thosebehaviors, because you're
targeting that impulsivity atthe source.

Ayla Inja (41:56):
Yeah, Definitely, yeah, definitely, and I mean
yeah also not just thehyperactivity, but, as you just
mentioned, the point ofhypervigilance, I think is also
important, because I think beinghypervigilant in general will
will cause you to have maybemore emotionally negative
thoughts, which could increaseyour depression and your anxiety
.
You know, and that's alsosomething that they target in

(42:19):
cognitive behavioral therapybecause you tend to be more
aware of the negative thingsthat are happening around you.
And when you are morehypervigilant to the negative
things that are happening aroundyou or threats, as we like to
call it you're more likely tomisinterpret that information,
which could reinforce sadnessand depression inside of you.

(42:40):
You know, I mean, it could besomething as simple and I was a
victim.
I was like a victim to this aswell, but I, you know, if my
friends had a dinner and did notinvite me, my automatic thought
was you know, they don't likeme, I'm not lovable, I'm not
worthy of anything, and thatwould cause me to react in a
negative way towards my friends,which would then push them away

(43:00):
, reinforcing the thought that,okay, my friends don't like me,
without realizing that it couldhave just been any other reason
that you know, they could havebeen full.
It could have been full, theycould have been just busy or
they forgot to text me.
You know like human reasons asto why and we just we tend to
forget and we just become.
You know it's like constantloop of like negativity in your

(43:21):
head and you know the thoughtsbuild up and then you become
impulsive and you becomehyperactive and you do things
that are disruptive or, you know, dysfunctional and yeah, I
think it's.
It's really a negative loop,but it's, I mean, it's workable
on definitely.

Ellie Goode (43:37):
Yeah, it's interesting to like, just even
like that coming back to like asa hyper vigilance of even if
the threat isn't real, you know,even if it's just a perceived
threat that is real, then likeit can have the same impact in
the nervous system.
Like you said, if we don't haveall the information or we don't
know, you know why something'shappening, then it can be like

(44:00):
oh, this is a threat, this is athreat, this is a threat and,
like you said, like it becomes alearned response and it just,
you know, like keeps cyclingthrough.
I think that's it's reallyimportant point to make.
And then I guess my questionwould be then does that mean and
this is something I've beenfinding in myself, but I'd love
to ask you, being that you're aresearcher, would it then, if

(44:22):
this, all of this stuff, islinked to the sympathetic
nervous system, would it thenmake sense to try and put
yourself into a parasympatheticstate as much as possible?
Or how, what would you sort of?
How do you come down out ofthat hyper vigilance and
hyperactivity?

Ayla Inja (44:37):
Sympathetic and like the sympathetic nervous system
and the parasympathetic nervoussystem are not mutually
exclusive, so like it's not thatif one is turned on, the other
is turned off, but in terms ofbeing less hyperactive and less
hyper vigilant, yes, it'sdefinitely extremely important
to do those things, and I thinkthat kind of goes back to
monitoring and modifying yourbehavior and your thoughts.

(44:59):
So this is why it's importantto, as I said before, maybe
journal upon those things,because then you become more
aware of your behaviors, Becauseif you're just constantly doing
things and living on autopilot,you're never going to reflect
upon some of the things that youdo that might be dysfunctional
towards your emotional health oryour mental health.
And so if you, you know, if youkind of just if you just become

(45:22):
more aware or you monitor yourbehaviors or your negative
thoughts by doing that, you willnaturally modify your behavior
because you'll be able topinpoint when and where it is
that you are acting in adysfunctional way or in a way
that doesn't serve you.

Ellie Goode (45:38):
Yeah, sorry, my cat's just popped up on the
screen.
Yeah, no, I think that that's areally important point too, and
, and I love that idea of justkeeping track in, in, in, like
whether it's a spreadsheet,whether it's a journal, like
when this happens, I react inthis way, or, and, and, like you

(45:59):
said, not only seeing a pattern, but, like you said, once you
see, oh, this is what happens,then you can naturally course
correct, which I think is reallycool, definitely.
Yeah, yeah, awesome, awesome,and so.
So, as a researcher, will yousort of continue into the
suicide, sort of likespecialization, or do you sort
of your next move, I guess, orwhat's your passion in that

(46:23):
sense?

Ayla Inja (46:25):
No.
So right now, you know.
So I'm a psych student on theway to becoming a licensed
professional psychologistfingers crossed, and so I also
just love research in general,because I really do think that
it contributes to like the fieldof knowledge that we have, but
it also allows us to, you know,think of the treatment towards,

(46:46):
you know, the things that we,the disorders that we have or
the dysfunctional symptoms thatwe display.
But my passion actually lies inchildhood and developmental
trauma and how that leads todysfunctional outcomes in
adulthood.
So obviously one of theoutcomes is suicide, but it's,
it's not the only outcome, and Ithink there's a lot more

(47:08):
important outcomes that weshould be focusing on, which is
why I stress so much and talk somuch about dysfunctional
behaviors.
It's around us everywhere.
It's in our everyday life, theway that we act and the way we
move, and a lot of the times wedon't realize that some of our
behaviors are not serving us tothe highest extent that they
should be.

(47:28):
And those dysfunctionalbehaviors that I talk about,
they I kind of like tocategorize them in two ways,
because you know, you could have.
You could have like a littlegirl that grows up with a
narcissistic parent or anarcissistic father and as she
grows up, what she will try todo is she will try to seek out
experiences that mimicked herchildhood relationship with her

(47:50):
father to try and subconsciouslyfix that relationship.
So that's why she'd be moreattracted to narcissistic men or
get into abusive relationships.
But then you could also haveand the other, the other side of
the spectrum, where the personwould actually become a void and
and try and avoid situationsthat they had in their childhood

(48:12):
, leading them to become a loneror become isolated or, you know
, not be able to form realrelationships with people.
I just think that talking aboutdysfunctional behaviors, or
shedding light on them, becausethey are so pervasive and
invisible to the eye and becausethey seem so high functioning,

(48:32):
I think it's important to shedlight on those, because
sometimes you do not realizethat what you're doing is
actually causing you a lot moreinterterminal than you think and
it's also reinforcing a lotmore negative trajectories in
your life.
You know, because one badrelationship could lead to I

(48:52):
don't know drinking, it couldlead to drug use, it could lead
to hypersexuality, and then youcould, you know, get into
another relationship and thatperson could be very good to you
and very healthy, but you wouldhave adopted negative, negative
like behaviors from yourabusive relationship, and so
it's like a constant cycle ofjust bad, bad, bad, like one

(49:15):
after the other.
And so that's why I think it'simportant to just realize, you
know, some behaviors are reallyreally not serving you at all.

Ellie Goode (49:25):
Yeah, I think that's a really good point to
make too, about just thesubconsciously recreating these
experiences so that we can learn.
I mean, I have definitely donethat, you know, like with
different family members.
I've then gone on and recreatedromantic relationships just and
then being like, oh, this isactually really similar to my
upbringing, and then realizing,yeah, like this is my own, I've

(49:49):
recreated this as a way to learnand teach myself a lesson,
which is actually like reallycool when you think about it,
but at the time it's not so fun.
But yeah, and I think, like yousaid, like I think you can get
caught in that trap of just youknow, this is who I am, like I,
I like bad guys or I like this,or blah, blah, blah, and and it
can almost it sounds like becomean identity.

(50:11):
You know we identify with this,and then you know we're like,
oh, but this is just who I am,and it's like well, is it?
Is it really?
You know you can change this,you know you can change your
identity, you can change thethings that you know, the
relationships that you go afterand seek after.
So I think, yeah, I think it's,it's really cool, like, like you
say, comes back to that, thatreflecting and that kind of

(50:33):
almost having like this zoomingout and and having this birds
eye kind of perspective of whatam I doing and where am I going
to be if I keep going on thispath, as I am, sort of what you
mentioned before.
I had.
I had a similar moment in arelationship where I was like,
if I stay here, like this isjust going to be my life for the
next five, ten years and I'mlike I don't want that for

(50:56):
myself.
So it's like you know you canstay or you can go into the
unknown and figure it out.
So yeah, but you know, like Ithink it's, it's scary for a lot
of people, for all of us to,you know, take that step back
and go.
And I guess that comes back towhat we're talking about with
responsibility andaccountability of you know,

(51:16):
seeing, seeing the role that weplay in our own life and how,
like you said, how our childhoodand our parents really
influence and affect that.
Yeah, definitely.

Ayla Inja (51:26):
I do want to point out, though, that I think it is
extremely, extremely, extremelyhard to get to that point where
you realize, or you acknowledgethat you are reenacting
childhood to womb those yours.
You know, and it's and I talk alot about, you know,
narcissistic relationships, evenromantic ones, because I I was

(51:48):
in two abusive relationships,and when you're in it, it's
really, really hard to get outof it.
You know, I'm sure you'refamiliar with the concept of a
trauma bond.
Yeah, so it's, it's somethingthat's really, really hard, and
I try to encourage the peoplethat I talk to with regards to
this that you know you should becompassionate, you should be
compassionate towards yourselfand acknowledge that these

(52:10):
relationships that you areseeking out Not only are they
coming as a as a consequence ofyour childhood upbringing
because you're seeking thoseexperiences out again but also
the concept of physiologicaladdiction to, to the ups and
downs.
If you grew up in a chaoticchildhood, you become addicted
to having an intermittent,intermittent cycle of good and

(52:35):
bad, and so it's really hard foryou to put yourself in stable
and consistent and healthyrelationships or stable,
consistent and healthysituations, whether that's a job
, or friendships or or romanticlove.
It's really hard to get out ofthose, not only because on a

(52:57):
psychological and emotionallevel, you kind of want to
create that situation again, butbecause on a physiological
level, you're addicted to thatfeeling.
So I think it's important toacknowledge that, the same way
you would treat a drug addictionand and you know, you wouldn't
blame the drug, the drug addict,for the way that they are, you

(53:18):
should also show compassiontowards yourself.
If you are this kind of personthat is constantly putting
yourself in situations like that, just acknowledge that you are.
You are on a genetic level on,on a biological level, on a
physiological level, unable tofunction without it, and so I
think it's really important toyou know, do the work on

(53:39):
yourself, but also be very slowand compassionate towards
yourself as well.

Ellie Goode (53:46):
I think that's a really good point as well.
Interesting, I didn't knowabout the physiological element,
but that makes a lot of sensethat you can be physiologically
addicted to, yeah, like asituation or a person and, and
just like you said, having thatcompassion is really important.
Otherwise, I think it wouldjust exacerbate the situation
and keep you stuck.
But it's almost like ourupbringing is normal to us.

(54:10):
You know it's, it's a comfortzone of, of, of a sense, and so,
like we mentioned before, yeah,like it's, it's hard to
identify and go this is abusiveor because this is my normal,
you know this is my, what I'mused to, and then you kind of
look for things that can affirmthat or situations, like you

(54:31):
said, that align with thatcomfort zone.
So I think it's a really goodpoint to that it's important to
go slow and have compassion andkindness for yourself, and also
that it can be really, reallydifficult to get to that point
of making a change.
So I think, yeah, kudos toeveryone who does.

Ayla Inja (54:50):
Yeah, I think so too.
Yeah, and to add on to yourpoint about confirming that you
have that kind of goes back towhat we were talking about
earlier about having, you know,core beliefs of like being
unlovable and being unworthy, Iacknowledge that those
destructive, destructive orsorry destructive behaviors and
like dysfunctional behaviorsthat you have adopted are there

(55:14):
as a result of your ego tryingto protect you.
So in the moment it seems selfserving, but on a long scale, on
a long term scale, it's not.
And so you know, for me, Iremember instances where if I
felt rejected in any way becauseit was so important to me to
overextend and overachieve, if Ifelt rejected in any way,

(55:36):
whether that came from aromantic partner or from a job
rejection or whatever it may be,it would bring up like core
wounds or core beliefs that Iinhabited through childhood of
being, you know, not good enough.
And in order to like confirmthat belief within myself, I
would go out into the world andact in a way to reaffirm that

(55:58):
belief that I had of myself.
So not feeling good enough, so,or not feeling like worthy of
real love, so that would maybebe going out and, you know,
getting shit face and notfeeling good about myself the
next day, or going out and, youknow, acting in a hyper sexual
way and then regretting it thenext day.
So you're kind of just, you'retrying to, you're trying to like
, re confirm that belief thatyou have of yourself, because it

(56:20):
feels better to not have thiscognitive dissonance where
you're thinking one thing butyou know thinking another thing,
and sometimes it feels betterto just act in the way that you
think but it's actually, on along term scale, very
detrimental towards you.
So it's just important toacknowledge, you know, if you do
ever feel triggered, or you dofeel, you know, rejected, or you

(56:43):
feel like a negative, ickyfeeling, try and tap into why
you're feeling that way and whatkind of feelings about yourself
.
Is it judging up for you?
Are you feeling maybe unlovable?
Are you feeling worthless?
And doing that might helpminimize the impact of the
behavior that follows or itmight actually help the behavior

(57:04):
that follows completely.
So you might actually not go outinto the world and act in a
dysfunctional way if you canjust acknowledge like, okay,
right now, you know I gotrejected from this job and it's
making me feel like I'm not goodenough and it's making me feel
like I'm not worthy of goodthings.
But I'm just going to let thethought pass.
I'm going to, like you know,ride the wave and just let the
thought pass and I think doingthat helps you stay grounded and

(57:28):
, you know, it also allows youto just not become so
hyperactive and so impulsive.

Ellie Goode (57:33):
Going back to impulsivity, yeah, totally,
totally, I think.
I think that's a really coolprocess to really slow down and
noticing what's going on in mymind, what's going on in my body
.
And, you know, because a lot ofthese things, a lot of these
situations and triggers can putus, you know, stir up this stuff

(57:56):
and we're like, ah, you know,into that, you know
hyperactivity state and so toreally just kind of almost just
slowed out and be like I'm not,not going to act, but I'm just
going to pause, you know, andand feel like, where do I feel
this emotion in my body?
Or, you know, is this thoughttrue?
Or what is this saying about me?
And, like you said, what isthis bringing up?

(58:17):
And can I, can I just allow itto come up, can I just observe
it and not get sucked into itand think it's the end of the
world?

Ayla Inja (58:24):
And as challenging as that can be at times, from
personal experience, yeah, it'sactually very, very, very hard
to do, but it's it's that it'sactually.
What you described right now isactually one of the principles
of dbt, which is a type oftherapy that is beneficial for

(58:45):
those who have borderlinepersonality disorders or any
form of cluster B in general.
It's more about this we callradical acceptance, so you're
never not going to feel negative, you know, you're never not
going to feel sad or angry oremotional.
In a way, it's important toaccept that you're having this

(59:05):
emotion without labeling it orjudging the emotion and not
reacting in the moment and onthe spot.
And just, you know, I, I liketo see emotions, as you know,
fleeting, and you know they comeand go throughout the day, but
it's when we ruminate on thoseemotions and we like, really

(59:27):
think about them and we labelthem and we judge them, and
that's what causes us to go outinto the world and and react
rather than, as you said,respond and slow down, and, you
know, just acknowledge and letit pass.
So, yeah, definitely, I thinkyou know, slowing down and
calming your mind and becomingaware of what you're feeling and
becoming more in tune with yourbody really helps, which is

(59:49):
where I think meditation andyoga do fall into helping,
because they definitely do allowyou to become more in tune with
yourself and your emotions.
So that definitely does helpbeyond the inner work and the
shadow work that you need to bedoing as well.

Ellie Goode (01:00:07):
Yeah, it's really cool.
It's something like I mean, Iknow I used to think there were
good emotions and bad emotionsor negative emotions, and you
know we need to.
I need to just avoid feelingshame and guilt and fear.
Fear has been a big one,actually, and it was interesting
.
I was, I was drinking San Pedroat a ceremony here in Peru and I

(01:00:30):
had just all this fear comingup and I was like I just don't
want to feel this.
I just feel absolutely terrified, really, really intense fear in
my body and you know, my mindis just like running rampant
with all these what, if, what ifthis happens, what if this
happens, you know, and it waslike I wanted to get rid of it,
you know, just push it away.
But then at some point Irealized, you know, fear has a

(01:00:52):
purpose that keeps us safe.
You know, because if there'sdanger, if there's someone
that's in an alleyway that'sgoing to attack us, if there's a
car and we're going to walkacross the road, you know we
need that fear in our system tojolt us, to be like like, pay
attention, you need to run awayor you need to do something.
So it's almost like it helpedme realize like emotions just

(01:01:13):
signal to us that something'shappening or that something
needs to happen.
You know whether it's anger andI need to enforce a boundary,
or you know fear I need to runaway.
Or you know get myself tosafety.
Or you know, whatever it is,it's, it's like helped me to see
my emotions as being thesesignposts and just you know,

(01:01:34):
rather than all these are goodand these are bad and I need to
be happy all the time and joyfulall the time is like never
going to happen.
You know and and can be also aform of spiritual bypassing, of
just being happy all the timeand ignoring all those feelings.
And so for me, like the realmagic has come in when I'm like,
oh, like these emotions,they're all just different
flavors, you know, they're all.
They all have a purpose andthey don't always feel

(01:01:56):
comfortable, but like you knowthey, there's a purpose and
giving space for all of them tojust come through, yeah, I think
that's actually a verybeautiful way to put it.

Ayla Inja (01:02:06):
And you know, seeing your emotions as signposts
signposts that something ishappening.
You know they signal to youthat you know someone made you
sad or someone.
You're feeling scared right nowand you need to maybe pay
attention more to yoursurroundings.
And you know it's justacknowledging that you are human
and there will be bad moments,but allowing it to pass and

(01:02:26):
holding space for yourself.
I think that's basically theroot of being grounded in
general.
I think it's important to just,you know, acknowledge that
you're not perfect and lifesucks sometimes and it's going
to throw a lot of shit at you,but you know we are super
resilient as human beings.
And also, going back to theconcept of you know emotion

(01:02:52):
service in one way, they couldalso not serve us at other times
.
But I think that applies toeverything.
You know, whether that's yourego or your behaviors or your
reactions to things, it's all ona spectrum, it's all on a
dimension.
So there are some things thatyou can do that might hurt you
and then there are some thingsthat you could do that would be

(01:03:14):
good for you.
And it's having or recognizingthe balance between both and
never going to the extreme oftwo things.
It's not to say that if you gothrough a breakup you can't go
out drinking with yourgirlfriends for one night of
having fun.
But it's when it becomes tooextreme or, you know, becomes a
repetitive pattern where you'reconstantly covering up pain with

(01:03:36):
distraction.
That's when it becomesdysfunctional.
You know, I think to categorizedysfunctional behaviors or self
sabotaging behaviors is when itbecomes a constant pattern and
when it becomes like to anextreme that it becomes
uncontrollable.
That's when I would say itbecomes dysfunctional, because
you know you can.
You can fuck around here andthere and you can do bad things

(01:03:59):
for you if they feel good in themoment, from time to time.
But it's being able to groundyourself and come back to
yourself and be like okay, I didsomething bad yesterday, I
didn't feel good about it, let'smove on, let's deal with this
in a healthy way.
So it's being able to make thedistinction between you know,
when it's too much.

Ellie Goode (01:04:17):
Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
Like that, you know it doesn'tjust you don't go from zero,
zero to 100 straight away.
You know you might, like yousaid, go out drinking one night
and then maybe two nights thenext week and three nights, and
then all of a sudden you, youknow you're drinking every night
at home on your own, and soit's, I think, for me, like it
helps me to realize, you know,one, we're all susceptible to

(01:04:38):
this, no one's immune, you know.
And two, it's not, like it's itcan happen slowly over time and
build, and then all of a suddenit's like, oh, I have this
coping mechanism.
I need to probably address that, you know.
So it's, yeah, I think that's areally important point of yeah,
like when these patterns, whenthese kind of addictive things,
become like a distraction youmentioned it yeah, it can just

(01:05:02):
just learning to be aware ofthat and you know, like I mean,
we've all, we've all done it.
So also, yeah, just just having, I guess, compassion for
ourselves, you know, when we dodo those things and, like you
said, going, okay, yeah, I didthat, let's, let's bring it back
and let's do something healthytoday, and and having that
balance, and I think that that'sjust part of being human, you
know, and it's sort of like yousaid before, of going into that

(01:05:26):
shadow work and going into thatdarkness and but also bringing
light.
You know, you don't always wantto be in the darkness and
always want to be in those heavyemotions and then not always
distracting yourself.
So it's it's this kind of danceor this balance of trying to,
you know, integrate it all andand feel all the different
things kind of in tandem, whichis a balancing act for sure.

Ayla Inja (01:05:49):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean even just the way you're
saying it, like it sounds likeit's a lot.
But you know, being human is isso complex and it's, it's a lot
, you know, even just you know,waking up every single day and
having to do the dishes can be alot for some people.
And yeah, on top of that,having to deal with shadow work
and working on your inner childand all of that, it I understand

(01:06:10):
that it can seem a lot ofpeople and I can understand.
That's the reason why, you know, we just put our hands up and
we don't want to do anythingabout it, because we just don't
want to have to deal with it.
We just want to go through life.
You know, fucking around anddoing the things that we do but
this is what I talk about leadsyou into living a life on
autopilot.
You never really feel likeyou're in the driver's seat of

(01:06:30):
your own life because you'rejust constantly going with the
motions and you're just reactingto whatever life throws at you.
And I think this is the firstand foremost reason why it's so
important to do the work onyourself, not just because it
will help you, you know, seebetter at night and because
you'll you'll drink lesser,because you become less, you

(01:06:52):
know, sexual or hyper sexual,but also because it gives you
full and total control of yourlife and who you are and who you
want to be.
You know and you can.
You can literally constructyour life as if it was a Barbie
dream house, into anything thatyou want.
But that can only happen if youare integrated as a whole

(01:07:13):
person.
And this is what I talk about alot, and the purpose of my
psycho education, or the purposeof my blog, is this concept of
wholeness.
You know you don't have to do,you know you don't have to
become more spiritual.
You don't have to become, youknow, more calm or or more
grounded or cooler or more chill.
It's not about that at all.

(01:07:34):
It's just about integrating thegood and bad parts of yourself,
becoming more whole, so thatyou can, you know, live a life
of authenticity and you can justlive your life according to
your true human design andfollow the path that makes you
feel most alive and most inharmony with yourself and with
other people, because there'snothing better than giving love

(01:07:57):
and receiving love, and Ibelieve that's why we were put
on this side.
You can only do that if youfully, truly, love yourself for
the shadows, the shadow darkparts of yourself and the good
light parts of yourself.

Ellie Goode (01:08:11):
Absolutely.
I think, yeah, that's a reallycool point as well, and the more
that you know we can loveourselves, you know and practice
that daily, the more we canthen apply that to everyone in
our lives.
You know and approach otherpeople with kindness and
compassion, and I think too,like you make a really good
point about you know being wholeand accepting all the parts,
and I think a lot of peopledon't want to deal with trauma.

(01:08:33):
I get that like I totallyunderstand and I know it is work
and it's not something that'sgoing to be super easy.
Maybe for some people it is,but it's like I think I just
realized one day you know youeither deal with it head on,
deal with this stuff head on,and you know, deal with this
stuff and face it.

(01:08:54):
You know, work with it, learnhow to accept all these parts
and then, like you said, createthe life you want, or else, if
you don't deal with it, likeit's gonna affect every decision
you make in every part of yourlife anyway.
So it's like you may as welljust deal with it.
That's my opinion anyway.

Ayla Inja (01:09:10):
Yeah, I think that's like the best summary that you
could say.
It's like you know, just ripthe band-aid off and just deal
with it, because if you don't,you know it's going to cause a
lot of turmoil for you and a lotof issues for you.
So you might as well just getit over with Exactly.

Ellie Goode (01:09:27):
Exactly Awesome.
Well, this has been an amazingchat.
Yeah, I really appreciate it.
So, for people who want tolearn more or connect with you
and read about your work and allof that, where can they find
out more?

Ayla Inja (01:09:41):
My website for my blog is called
findingyourselfagaincom and I amworking on a book, so I will
plug the promo for that on myInstagram.
A la injah, so a y, l, a, I n,j and yeah, that's basically.
That's it.

Ellie Goode (01:10:00):
Awesome, awesome.
And what is the?
What's the?

Ayla Inja (01:10:02):
book about.
So basically the same conceptsthat we covered today and also
what my blog talks about.
I just hope to go more indetail and more in depth
regarding, you know, childhoodtrauma and the complexities of
it, and I also hope to have apersonal spin on it.
So I'm actually conducting myown case study research.
So I'm interviewing individualsanonymously regarding their

(01:10:26):
stories and things that they'vegone through and seeing their
worldview and how they definetheir own trauma, because I feel
like it will.
It will at least allow peopleto relate to those stories and
maybe trigger them into this orcatapult them into their own
healing.

Ellie Goode (01:10:46):
That's cool.
I like that.
I think, yeah, the power ofjust people's stories and
storytelling is, yeah, reallyreally cool and effective, so
that sounds awesome, definitely.
Yeah, yeah, cool, well, thankyou so much Thank you for having
me.

Ayla Inja (01:10:59):
It was great to talk to you.

Ellie Goode (01:11:02):
And that's a wrap.
Thank you so much for listeningto Sex, money and Rage.
If you haven't already, pleasehit the subscribe or follow
button, make sure notificationsare ticked and I will see you
next time.