Martin W. Ball, PhD — 5-Meo-DMT, Non-Duality, The Science Of Psychedelics, Spiritual Bullshit, Ego Transformation and More - #31 - Sex, Money & Rage

Episode Transcript
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Ellie Goode (00:04):
Welcome to the sex, money and rage podcast.

Martin W Ball (00:08):
Let's take someone who just thinks that
they're the spiritual shit.
They're like man, I'm, I'mfucking top spiritual dog.
And people definitely developspiritual egos, there's no doubt
about that.
And then then they take apsychedelic and in their
experience they perceivethemselves as the Messiah and

(00:29):
they get the message like you'rethe one, it's all up to you,
but that's just.
It's just feeding the bullshitthat they've been feeding
themselves for years.
And then they come out of itand they say I'm going to start
a cult and I'm now going to be acult leader.
And usually they don't put intothose terms, but that's what
happens to people.
And then actually what it'sdoing is inflating these

(00:52):
dysfunctional aspects of theirego.

Welcome back to sex , money and rage.
I'm your host, ellie, and thankyou for listening.
If you want to support thepodcast and help it grow, I'll
be forever grateful.
Just hit the subscribe orfollow button and make sure
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If you have 30 seconds to spare, please leave a five star
reading or review.
It really helps to get the wordout, especially as this is a new

(01:20):
podcast.
We're talking about thepsychology and the hangups that
people have around sex, moneyand rage.
We also talk about psychedelicsand nervous system hacks to
help you dominate in businessand in life, because life is
more fun when you dominate.
Sex, money and Rage is aboutliving dangerously, and it's the
provocative podcast where wetalk about anything and

(01:41):
everything that's taboo.
So if you're easily offendedand somehow ended up listening
to a podcast about sex, moneyand rage, you should probably
push the pause button right now.
Or maybe you should listen, Idon't know.
Anyway, today's interview iswith Martin Bull, who has a PhD
and is a writer, independentpublisher, non-dual guide and
consultant.
If you're wondering whatnon-dual means and non-duality,

(02:04):
then keep listening.
He's also a visionary artistand musician.
He is very big into entheogenicmedicines and self exploration,
working with the mind and theego and all of that fun stuff,
especially five MEO DMT.
This interview was a really,really interesting one and
pretty out there.
We talked about some of thethings around how sometimes

(02:27):
these psychedelics can make yourmind and your ego and your
bullshit even stronger and moreevident, which you might be
wondering.
Oh, I knew these people whohave done all these plant
medicine or have explored thesealternative modalities and
they're actually worse than theywere before, or they're more
just caught up in stories andshit.
So, yeah, it was a reallyinteresting episode.

(02:48):
It's pretty out there, prettydifferent.
So just wanted to put adisclaimer in there, as per
normal, that I am notrecommending or encouraging you
to do psychedelics or plantmedicine or anything of the sort
.
Please do your own research andcheck everything before
deciding whether you want to doit or not.
It is not a magic pill thatfixes everything.

(03:10):
I know from experience thesepsychedelics can just shine
light on things, they canmagnify things.
So I've been learning recentlythat, yeah, they're powerful
tools, they're really reallyincredible in a lot of ways, but
they are not without risks.
So definitely chat to peoplewho have done it, interview
people, research, whatever youneed to do.

(03:31):
If you decide you do want to dopsychedelics, but you know what
, then not necessary foreveryone.
There are many ways to heal andwork on yourself, and
psychedelics are just onecomponent.
Anyway, that's enough for me.
Let's jump in and hear whatMartin has to say, all about his
crazy experiences.
Hey Martin, how are you goingthis morning?

(03:53):
Oh, this afternoon, I shouldsay.

I'm doing well.
Thank you very much.
Yeah, awesome, looking forwardto speaking with you today.

Yeah, yeah, likewise it should be a good
conversation.
I was doing some research toprep for the interview and
you've got a very interestingbackground.
I'm going to have someinteresting things to talk about
, so, yeah, cool.
So I guess, for people whodon't know you or have never
heard of you, can you just sortof chat a bit about who you are

(04:21):
and what you do?

Okay, sure.
Well, my name is Martin, soI'll give you this is my
non-dual answer to the question,because we'll probably be
getting into non-duality becausethat's a big part of what I'm
known for.
So my non-dual answer is I'm alocalized embodiment of the
universal consciousness that isassociated with this particular

(04:45):
human vehicle and personalityconstruct that is known as
Martin.
So that's my non-dual answer tothat question.
But the personal answer yeah,my name is Martin.
I live in Ashland in SouthernOregon and this is where I've
been living since late 2007.
And as an individual, I wear alot of different hats, in the

(05:07):
sense that I do a lot ofdifferent things, but underneath
all of the various things thatI do, my primary mission in life
is just to be myself and toexpress myself and to
authentically bring myself intowhatever it is that I do.
So now let's go down the list.
I've been the host of theEntheogenic Evolution podcast
since 2008.
So I've been doing that forabout 15 and a half years now.

(05:30):
And also something that I'mplugging about that is that I
think that at this point, Imight be the longest
consistently running podcast onthe planet on the topic of
psychedelics and entheogens,because I've been doing it for
so long.
So that might be true.
I don't know.
I haven't looked at the statson that, but I've been doing

(05:50):
that for a long, long time andalso, somewhat related to that,
I've also been an eventorganizer around the topics of
psychedelics and education.
So I've organized a number ofevents here in Ashland.
Formerly I'd run the ExploringPsychedelics program out of
Southern Oregon Universityexcuse me, conference out of

(06:12):
Southern Oregon University, andI did that for five years.
So also I have my PhD inreligious studies and I was
actually a professor ofreligious studies at Southern
Oregon University for about 10years.
I got laid off in the past fewyears due to student enrollment
drops from coronavirus and theuniversity needed to take care

(06:36):
of its budget and my classes gotcut.
So I've been unemployed as aprofessor for the past several
years but did that for a numberof years and also taught briefly
at UC Berkeley in California.
Okay, so those are.
Those are those items.
I'm also kind of aself-identified non-dual and
theogenic educator, in the sensethat my primary focus when it

(06:59):
comes to entheogens andpsychedelics is the non-dual
experience and how we can workwith various entheogens in order
to generate non-dualexperiences and then also how to
integrate those experiencesinto a transformed and liberated
life.
I'm primarily known for my workon
five-methoxydiamethyltryptamine,that's a five-MEo DMT.

(07:22):
I'm also the guy who nicknamedit the God Molecule back in 2008
, and apparently that I alsonamed it the crown jewel of
entheogens at that point.
But the God Molecule seems tohave really taken off and so
people use that kind of allaround the world at this point.

(07:42):
I'm also an author.
I've authored a number ofdifferent books, and they range
through a variety of things.
My main books that sell themost are my non-fiction books
about non-duality and entheogens, but I've also released some
books of poetry, some books ofmy visionary art, and I'm also

(08:03):
the author of six novels, whichI kind of call psychedelic
fiction, because they kind ofbridge the gap between fantasy
and science fiction and they'regenerally psychedelics play main
roles within those novels.
So there's still more to thelist.
I'm also a visionary artist.
I've been making art since Iwas a kid and these days I do a

(08:26):
lot of digital artwork and itkind of fits within the
visionary art category.
I'm also an avid naturephotographer and I use a lot of
my photography in my art thesedays, especially since about a
year and a half ago I put downthe big bucks for a much better
camera and a much bigger andbetter lens, and so use a lot of

(08:49):
my bird photography in my artsince then and also use a lot of
my landscape photography withinmy art.
I'm also a musician.
I have been making music sinceI was about 15 years old.
I am self-taught as a musicianand I'm a multi-instrumentalist,
so I play a wide variety ofdifferent instruments and I like
to refer to myself as a musicalshapeshifter, in the sense that

(09:11):
I don't really adhere to anyparticular genre or style and
really look at music as anexploration and a journey, and I
want to go as many places as Ipossibly can with music.
So we're almost to the end ofthe list.
I'm also a father.
I'm a family man.
I've got three kids.
Two of them are a bit older,one's in college, one is in high

(09:33):
school and my youngest, jayden,he's 10.
He just finished fourth gradeand he is my little budding
naturalist buddy, in the sensethat he and I pretty much, if
I'm not doing interviews ordoing other work on the computer
and if he's available, we areout in nature taking photographs
, catching lizards and snakesand toads and frogs and stuff

(09:55):
like that.
So he's my little outdoor buddy.
And also these days I work as anon-dual and theogenic
integration coach, meaning thatI work with a variety of clients
around the world.
We do video calls, and themajority of them are people who
have had an experience with 5MEODMT, but it's certainly not

(10:16):
limited to that People havingall different kinds of
experiences as psychedelics, andso they bring their case to me
and say, hey, this is whathappened and I can help them
kind of unpack, from a non-dualand energetic perspective,
what's going on without puttinga lot of meaning and
interpretation into it, andlet's see.

(10:38):
Lastly, I would say that I wasa facilitator of 5MEO DMT
experiences for a number ofyears.
I stopped doing that back in2016, but developed a whole
program and methodology therethat I called non-dual energetic
therapy, which again is tiedinto the idea of how do we use
entheogens to actually enterinto non-dual states of being

(11:02):
and then how do we use that totransform ourselves.
So I think maybe that covers it.
So those are all the things thatI do, but, as I said,
underneath, behind, within,throughout all of that, it's
merely just me being myself, andI guess if I were to wrap it up
really sensically, I would sayI'm just kind of a multimedia

(11:24):
artist, essentially.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's, it's super cool, like
what a what a diverse background.
I mean, yeah, it's, it's reallycool.
Do you think that?
I mean, we'll sort of go into afew of the things you've
mentioned, but do you think thepsychedelics have contributed to
you being quite artistic andmusical as well, or have you
always sort of been that way?

Well, I've definitely always been that way.
You know I was.
I was into art, you know, evenas a little kid.
That was obviously long beforeI ever experienced any kind of
psychedelics, and I think it wasaround 14 or 15 where I had my
epiphany around music, which wasagain before I had ever
experienced any kind ofpsychedelic, but it was actually

(12:10):
in the summer.
My family was in Santa Cruz,California, where my dad used to
teach chemistry summer schoolat UC Santa Cruz, so we'd go
there every summer from ourplace in Northern California.
I was listening to the radio andI think that summer the Cure
song why Can't I Be you is outon the radio and some of my

(12:31):
other favorite bands at the timehad some hits on the radio.
And I was just listening to theradio and I realized that when
I listened to music that I wasreally kind of analytical, sort
of breaking down like OK, thisis what the drums are doing,
this is what the bass is doing,the guitars and the rhythm
instruments, and here's how themelodies fit and here's what the
harmonies are.
And again, not without anytraining in music.
It just kind of had thisepiphany and felt like you know

(12:54):
what I think I could do that, Ithink I could make music, and so
I started when I was 15.
And it was always, you know,I'd bring stuff to other
musicians, ok.
So here's what the guitar does.
Here's how the bass goes.
This is what the keyboardshould be doing.
But definitely then, a littlebit later, had my first
experience with cannabis and Ikind of hooked up with this

(13:16):
older friend in high school.
He was like a couple yearsbeyond me.
My high school was a three yearhigh school, so he was a senior
and I was what a sophomore, andwe used to go over to his house
and we'd get high and he wouldtell me he's like well, as
artists, it's our responsibilityto do drugs, get high and then

(13:39):
be creative and then bring thatback to the world.
And I like that.
I was like, ok, that's cool, Ilike that, yeah.
But then you know, over theyears, as I explored more into
the realm of psychedelics, itjust had an overwhelming impact
on my creative and artisticexpression.
It's just a central theme thatruns throughout everything that

(14:01):
I do, especially in the sensethat, of course, with
psychedelics you get lots ofinteresting visuals and so
that's really easy to work withas an artist, and then also I
like to characterize allpsychedelic experience as
experiences of amplified energy.
So we get these, these bigbursts of energy and these waves
and these crests, and thenthese openings and these

(14:22):
transformations.
So that's definitely a dynamicthat I bring to my music.
I like to use lots ofinteresting sounds.
I like to make music that'srather dramatic, that takes
people on a journey and thatopens you up to these these
enveloping kinds of experiences.
And then also with mystorytelling, it's just, it's a
huge aspect of what I do.

(14:43):
So, yeah, my art, my music, mybooks, my expression wouldn't be
, wouldn't be anything like itis now if it weren't for my
experiences with psychedelics.
So they're definitelyfoundational.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And and so you mentioned yourfriend in Smoking Weed Was that
sort of the gateway topsychedelics?
Or how did you first sort ofdive into the psychedelic world?
And I guess, was five MEO DMTlike kind of how you sort of
weight your feet in that spaceor how did it all sort of come
about?

Yeah, yeah.
So I think again when I wasaround 15, when I was some
friends and we drank rum andCoke and I got really drunk, I
mean drunk to the point where,you know, we were out in some
field, we had to get to myfriend's car and I'm crawling
across the field and my friendis kind of walking me like a dog

(15:37):
and you know, I'm in thattypical drums drunk state where
I'm like, oh man, I love you somuch, oh, thank you for being my
friend.
And then I got home and rightas we were pulling up to my
house I was like, oh, I'm goingto throw up my friends, like
don't you fucking barf in my car, and so open up the door and I
throw up on the street.
And then he walks me to thedoor and I literally have to

(15:58):
crawl inside the house and Icrawl back to my sister's
bedroom and I wake her and I'mlike Jessica, jessica, I'm
really drunk, I need your help.
And it was actually one of thesweetest things my sister ever
did for me.
She went and she got a bucketfor me to throw up in and then
she like cleaned it all up andmade sure that my parents didn't
find out.
And then I was really hung overthe next day and I was like I

(16:20):
don't like being drunk.
I felt really stupid, I feltnumb and that and felt really
sick and that was just stupid.
I'm not, I have zero interestin getting drunk.
And so then yeah, a couple ofolder friends were like, well,
hey, you want to get high andwant to try some cannabis.
And I tried some cannabis andit was like, oh my God, I love
this that suddenly I'm inspired.

(16:41):
Like I wanted to sit in my roomin the middle of the night and
get high and write poetry andlight candles and listen to the
cocktail twins and a dead candance and I wanted to play
guitar and make music.
And then I wanted to go outsideand hike and just just vibe off
of nature.
So I learned right away that Iwas really interested in
cannabis, that that was a very,very interesting and enlivening

(17:05):
and stimulating and inspiring,versus alcohol was just like
this deadening, just stupid.
Just I didn't like it at all.
So then I didn't, you know.
So I do consider cannabis tokind of be a light form of
psychedelic, for a variety ofreasons.
I mean one is that we have anendocannabinoid system.

(17:28):
So when we consume cannabis,it's actually interacting with
our natural biochemistry, versusfor, like alcohol, that's
literally a poison.
You're drinking a poison,you're killing brain cells and
like, oh, this feels good, butwe have an endocannabinoid
system and this is the way thatmost psychedelic works, that
when we ingest them, thatactually what's happening is

(17:48):
they're.
They're working asneurotransmitters within our
body and, for example, the humanbody also produces DMT and five
MEO DMT.
Those are known as endogenouspsychedelic neurotransmitters
and these are in all mammals.
So these psychedelic compoundsinteract with our body chemistry
and our internal dynamics in avery different way than, say,

(18:10):
something like alcohol.
So, also, just kind of given myphilosophical interests and
whatnot, it was in college thatI, my first year of college, I
had this girlfriend and she saidwell, you know, martin, you
really ought to try psilocybinmushrooms at it.
I think you'd really like them.
Just, given everything thatyou're interested in that, you

(18:31):
know, why not give them a try?
So it wasn't until the summer,after my first year of college,
I went to a music festival witha couple of friends and we were
in this long line of carswaiting to get into this, this
hippie festival in NorthernCalifornia, and some guy was
walking down the road and he'slike shrooms, shrooms for sale.

(18:52):
And so my friend Gary leans outthe car and is like, yeah,
we'll buy some.
So we got some mushrooms andthat was my first mushroom
experience.
And then after that I startedexperimenting with them more and
that was my only psychedelicexperience for many years.
The first I don't even maybe 10or more years of my psychedelic

(19:12):
life was simply psilocybinmushrooms.
And then, a bit later, after Igraduated from graduate school,
completed my PhD, I was readingan article in the LA times and
there was an article about thiswebsite in Santa Monica in
Southern California called sagewisdom that was selling this

(19:33):
herb called salvia divinorum.
And having completed my degreein religious studies, I knew
what salvia divinorum was.
I knew that it was thisentheogenic plant that was used
by the Mazatec Indians of Mexico, which also make use of
psilocybin mushrooms within thereligious ceremonies and
spiritual practices.
And here this guy was selling.
It was perfectly legal.

(19:53):
He just go to the website andorder is like, okay, well, I'm
going to get some of that.
And so I got some salvia and hewas selling what was called
enhanced leaf salvia, salviadivinorum, and that's what I
decided to go with.
So what that means is in this isDaniel Sebert.
He was actually the person whoidentified the psychedelic

(20:16):
molecule of salvin ornate.
So what he would do with salvia.
And so salvia is a sage plant.
It's like this big dark greenleaves.
And actually just let me sayone of the things that's
fascinating about salviadivinorum is that every salvia
divinorum plant that exists, itwas cultivated for so long by

(20:37):
the Mazatec people of Mexicothat the plant no longer goes to
seed, and so it's a strictly acultogen.
And the way that you get newsalvia plants is you clip off
part of one plant and then youplant that in the ground, and so
every salvia divinorum plantthat exists is actually the same

(20:57):
plant, because they're all justclones.
They're genetically identical,so there's only one salvia plant
in the world, technicallyspeaking.
So anyway, he would extract thesalvin ornate from the leaves
and then he would create it in aliquid crystal form and then
put that, add that to the leavesof the dried salvia so that

(21:20):
that way, if you're smoking it,you could just smoke a small bit
of salvia.
The advantage is that if you'rejust working with raw salvia
leaves, they burn very, very hotand you need to smoke a lot of
it, like you have to have a pipewith like a really big bowl and
you need to smoke about two ofthose bowls and it can't, and

(21:41):
it's not just like casualsmoking.
You have to smoke as much asyou can.
Smoke as much as you can, thenyou have to clear it out.
Then you pack it with moresalvia and then you smoke as
much as you can and then afterthat, suddenly reality unzips,
turns inside out, gets smearedacross multiple dimensions
simultaneously and then zipsback up and you're right back
where you started and it'sbizarre, but anyway, with the

(22:02):
enhanced leaf salvia you've gotmore salvin or an A mixed in
there, and so then you canactually just smoke just a
little teeny tiny bit and youtake this one little teeny tiny
hit and for my first experienceI described that as a
psychedelic tsunami.
That is, just this absolutetsunami of psychedelic
experience that hits you in amatter of seconds.

(22:24):
So then the five MEO DMT didn'tcome until several years after
that when I first experienced,started working with five MEO
DMT, and it was a couple yearsinto that before I had what I
consider my first fullexperience of five MEO DMT and

(22:48):
then, after that point startedworking with ayahuasca and it
was after five MEO DMT that Igot to experience DMT and then
also started working with a widevariety of synthetic molecules.
Also spent some time withpeyote centipedrocactus.

(23:09):
So yeah, my experience now isreally quite extensive.
But again started with cannabis.
Then for at least a decade ormore it was only psilocybin
mushrooms, then salvia, thenfive MEO and then everything
else.

Nice, you've had a very wide ranging experience
then.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so I guess, for people whodon't know, can you just explain
a little bit about what fiveMEO DMT is.

Yeah, so that would be five methoxy
dimethyltryptamine.
As I mentioned before, this issomething that's naturally
produced in the human body, sothere's nothing foreign or
unusual about it in that sense.
Only that we generally havevery, very small trace amounts
of this in our system at anygiven time.

(23:57):
In terms of the natural world,five MEO DMT has recently been
identified in a lichen.
You know one of these fungus,algae, hybrid things, these
lichen, but that's only recentlydiscovered.

(24:17):
It's also found in a variety ofdifferent grasses around the
world, primarily phallaris grass.
So a lot of the plants thatalso produce DMT also produce
five MEO DMT, but generally inlower quantities.
So it's in the phallaris grassand it's in acacia wood and
acacia trees very, very smallamounts.

(24:41):
And there also are these treesthat grow in Central America,
which are known as Yopo trees,or the proceeds that are called
Yopo seeds.
And this is the only place thatwe can find, anthropologically
speaking, where human beingshave been using five MEO DMT.
So in these Yopo seeds you getthese little seeds that come out

(25:05):
of these larger seed pods thatthe tree produces, and then
there's these little seedsinside them that they're kind of
flat little discs and they havea hard shell on the outside of
them and you have to roast them.
You have to crack the shell,remove the shell.
Then you take the roasted seedsand you grind them all up into
a nice fine powder and then youstored it up your nose and you
have a five MEO DMT experience.

(25:27):
And so there, in terms of theCentral American cultures,
they've been using it forhundreds of years, thousands of
years.
You don't really know, but it'snot really widespread.
There also are some accounts ofcertain batches of ayahuasca
being made in South America withplants that contain five MEO

(25:47):
DMT, but most versions ofayahuasca are made with DMT,
which is very, very differentfrom five MEO DMT.
It's very important not toconfuse the two that five MEO
DMT and DMT are two separatethings.
Yes, they share the same threeletters, dmt, but that doesn't
make them the same in any way,shape or form.

(26:08):
Lastly, the only other place inquote, unquote nature that we
find five MEO DMT, though I didmention, it's in human beings,
sexually, in all mammals.
So in low quantities it's inall mammals.
But outside of that, the onlyother place that we have found
five MEO DMT in the naturalworld is in the secretions of

(26:29):
the Sonoran Desert Toad, alsoknown as the Colorado River Toad
.
Scientifically formally it wascalled Bufo alvarius.
It has been renamed to Insiliusalvarius, but the word Bufo has
kind of stuck as shorthand forthe secretions of the Sonoran
Desert Toad, even though thename is scientifically changed.

(26:50):
So most toads produce what'scalled bufotaning and that is
5-H-O DMT.
And again it has DMT but itdoesn't mean it's DMT.
That actually functions assomething of a nerve toxin.
So when a predator comes up toa toad and says, oh, I'm going

(27:10):
to eat you, the toad secretesthis 5-H-O DMT and it gets into
the animal and they starttwitching and wigging out
because it's a nerve toxin.
But for some mysterious,magical, mystical, unknown
reason the Sonoran Desert Toadin addition to producing 5-H-O
DMT also produces 5-MEO DMT.

(27:32):
So this is one of the placeswhere use of 5-MEO DMT has
really exploded.
It's called milking the toads,where you squeeze their glands
and then you collect thesecretions.
Then you dry it out and you getthis little crystalline
substance and you can smoke oryou can vaporize that and have a
5-MEO DMT experience.
So back to what it is more atthe phenomenological or

(27:56):
experiential level it is handsdown in terms of experience.
Now, if we're just going bymolecular weight, in terms of
how powerful something is, themost powerful psychedelic
substances on the planet wouldbe LSD and salvinornae from the
salveodivinorum plant.
In terms of how much do you useversus how much experience do

(28:20):
you get.
But if we're talking about thephenomenology of the experience,
in terms of how powerful wasthe experience, how amazing was
that experience?
5-meo DMT is by far the mostpowerful and theogenic compound
that exists within reality andit's very unique in the sense
that virtually all psychedelicexperiences, even though they

(28:47):
may alter and fundamentallyshift certain aspects of the ego
, of someone's personal sense ofself and identity, virtually
all psychedelic experiences arestill within the realm of
duality in the sense that thereis.
So.
Duality just means there's meand then there's everything
that's not me.
There is the subject, that'shaving the experience, and then

(29:08):
the objects of perception.
So anytime you have anexperience of yourself as being
in a place, that's a dualisticexperience, because there's me
and then there's the place thatI'm in.
So even if somebody is trippingreally hard on salveodivinorum
and they're like man, realityjust split into multiple
dimensions and now I'm in someweird in-between space.

(29:28):
That's still an experience ofthe ego.
Now it's not your normaleveryday experience but it's
still experience of an ego.
Or if somebody smokes DMT andsays, yeah, I was out in outer
space and I was talking toaliens and I was on their
spaceship and then they took meto the heart of the universe,
that's still a dualisticexperience.
You're still interpretingexperience through your ego

(29:48):
because it's you and these weirdfucking aliens and you're
somewhere else and you don'tknow where you are.
That's duality.
And the problem with dualisticexperiences is that it's all
filtered through the ego and theego is basically a bullshit
machine that it makes shit upand then goes around pretending
that the stuff it made up istrue and it projects a lot and
it has a really hard timedistinguishing between what it's

(30:10):
projecting versus what it'sactually experiencing.
So the ego is very problematicin that sense.
But what happens with 5MEO DMTis, if you take what's called a
full release dose, meaning youhave a sufficient enough fuel to
launch yourself what happens is, within a few seconds after

(30:31):
inhaling, the ego thinks oh myGod, I'm dying.
And so there's this potentialfor an ego death experience and
the way that I like to describeit.
The reason why this works thisway is because the ego itself is
made out of limited patterns ofenergy, meaning we all have

(30:56):
habitual ways that we think,habitual ways that we act,
habitual ways that we expressourselves, the words we use, the
language we use, the gestureswe use, the way we think about
things, the way we processinformation, the way we become
attached to things, the way weproject.
These are all just patterns ofenergy, of how we are
experiencing and expressingourselves and how we are

(31:17):
identifying, but they're alllimited.
In other words, people, eachperson, acts this way, not that
way, right, and that's justreally general and arbitrary.
But in other words, we all kindof inhabit a persona, we
inhabit a character, and thereare certain things that we say
are in character and thenthere's other things that we
would say, well, that's reallyout of character for that person

(31:38):
.
And so these are just patternsof expression that we're
habituated to, into which we'veidentified, but they're all
limited by definition.
So what happens when somebodytakes 5MEODMT is there's this
experience of this infiniteexpansion of energy, and a lot
of people liken it to like anuclear weapon going off or like
a star going supernova.

(31:58):
I mean it's that dramatic andthat quick where somebody feels
like, oh my God, everything'sbursting and as this energy is
expanding, it's almost notentirely, but almost impossible
for the limited patterns of theego to maintain their structure
within this massive energeticflood that's taking place.
So, in other words, peoplestart to experience everything

(32:21):
I've ever identified as myselfis now falling away and I'm
forgetting who I am.
I don't know where I am, Idon't know what my history was.
All of that, all of my ideas,my beliefs, everything is
falling away.
And when that starts, the egothinks I'm dying.
And if a person can say yes andallow that process to happen and
not hold on because the ego canalways hold on what happens is

(32:46):
people enter into a non dualstate of awareness.
Now, a non dual state ofawareness in being means that
there is no longer a separationbetween subject and object.
There's no longer a selfidentified ego that says I am me
and this is what I'mexperiencing.
It just becomes a totalexperience and there individuals

(33:07):
experience their fundamentalnature, as being the shorthand
word for it is God that yourealize.
I am an infinite consciousness.
I'm made out of the infiniteenergy of unconditional love, I
am limitless, I am eternal andeverything that exists is

(33:28):
actually just me in disguisedform.
So it's like this completesense of totality where
everything is experienced as one, and many people will then
describe it as an experience ofbeing fully enlightened or being
fully liberated, or you know.
Again, the shorthand is peopleexperience themselves as God and

(33:51):
this can be maintained forabout 10 to 15 minutes as that
energetic expansion is at itspeak.
But as soon as it starts to dieback down, the energetic
structures of the ego start toreassemble and then eventually,
after another 10 or 15 minutes,the ego is then fully
reassembled and people come backand they're like what the fuck?
I just experienced myself asGod.

(34:13):
Is this real, is this possible?
But that's the non dualexperience and most psychedelics
.
At best people tend to get likea short glimpse of maybe a few
seconds of that experience, butthe energy is not sufficient
enough to maintain that egosuspended state.
So, for example, in someone'ssix hour mushroom journey, they

(34:35):
might have about 30 secondswhere they experienced something
like that, but as soon as thatwave of energy passes, the ego
comes back and then ego says,whoa, what was that?
So this is what makes five MEODMT fundamentally unique and
that this non dual nature of itis the primary aspect of the
experience, versus with mostpsychedelic experiences.

(34:56):
They're primarily dualistic innature and even if there is a
non dual breakthrough, it's very, very brief and actually
relatively rare.
It doesn't happen that often onmost other psychedelics.
So this is what makes five MEOjust hands down clearly the most
powerful psychedelic thatexists on the planet, that

(35:16):
there's nothing reallycomparable to it.

And so I guess then , like you mentioned, sort of
you know, people will go in andhave these psychedelic
experiences of feeling thisoneness with everything and then
, as they come back to, I guess,reality for lack of a better
word they, you know the egostructures, come back in.
How, how do you find peopleintegrate those two distinctions

(35:42):
of experiences?
Because I just know people whohave had that oneness, that God
like experience, and then theycome back and they're like, well
, like how do I live my life now?
Like what do I do, how do Imake decisions?
And like, is that somethingthat you've either encountered
yourself or seen other peopleencountered, that you coached
through?
Of how do you integrate, Iguess, an experience like that?

Yeah, well, there's no easy path to
integration of this, but if Iwere to just kind of summarize
it and like one really simplething, it is learning how to be
yourself and really givingyourself permission to be
yourself.
And that sounds easy enough, itsounds small enough, but it's

(36:28):
pretty monumental because you,we have to remember, so, all of
us, we've lived our entire livesthrough the perspective of our
ego and everything has beenfiltered through the ego, and
then suddenly we strip it awayand it's even, it's this
entering into the mostfundamental nature of reality.

(36:50):
So, even though people say,well, I left and then I came
back to reality, actually it's,it's the opposite, is what's
happening?
You're going all the way intothe true nature of reality and
then you're kind of going backinto the illusory nature of
reality where you thinkeverything is like separate and
separated and individuated,which is also true, but it's not
the fundamental nature of being.

(37:11):
The fundamental nature of beingis this unitary state, and so
it's the most fundamentalexperience of truth at an
energetic level that peoplecould ever have.
So there's a sense ofeverything is infinite, I am
infinite, I am eternal, I ameverything and I am this energy
of love, and you're feeling thatin every molecule of your being

(37:32):
and it just feels fundamentallytrue.
It feels more true thananything you could ever possibly
imagine, in the same sense thatmaybe the very first time that
you told your lover I love you,and you just felt that surge of
oh, my God, this is really atrue statement.
I'm not just saying it becausethis person wants to hear it or
because I'm just being like, oh,yeah, I love you.
It's like, no, I love you, andthat sense of wow.

(37:55):
I'm really entering intosomething true here.
So take that and magnify it bya billion, trillion, zillion,
and that's the five MEOexperience.
Then what we find is we comeback into our ego and we get a
chance to really observe.
The ego is that we notice Wow,actually I've got a lot of

(38:16):
stories running about myself.
I've got a lot of storiesrunning about other people.
I've got a lot of conditionedways that I've responded to
things and actually a lot of itis just not really genuine for
me.
You know, for example, takesomeone who's a people pleaser.
They spend their entire livestrying to make sure everybody
else is happy and usuallythey're neglecting themselves

(38:38):
along the way because they're sobusy making everybody else
happy and they're telling peoplethings that they want to hear
because they want other peopleto feel good.
And then you go through thisexperience, for example, with
this kind of personality type,and they come back and realize
I've been like expending so muchenergy on trying to make other
people feel happy and I actuallytell people things all the time
that I don't really mean andaren't really true for me, and I

(39:01):
want to get in touch with thattrue part of myself.
So the way that I like todescribe it is that each and
every one of us is God, thisuniversal being that is
performing as the person that wethink that we are, but also
that infinite energy has beenchanneled down into the human
form and the human mind and thehuman body and the human ego.

(39:22):
But this is where our energeticexpression comes from, is from
this universal source.
So it's not a question of, well, do I need to be in that
infinite oneness state all thetime?
But how can I get in touch withmy true, authentic expression
and my true authentic energy sothat I'm actually living from
that place?
And that's the real integrationand that's also where

(39:44):
liberation comes from islearning how to really
authentically be yourself andinhabit that in your body and
express that within yourself.
And it's not necessarily easy,because a lot of the patterns
and constructs of the ego havebeen embedded with this since
we've been children.
They're now operating at anunconscious level.

(40:06):
We're not even aware of howwe're doing it.
So this is where I like toemphasize the idea of a process.
It's not about a singularexperience.
It's about a process oflearning how to give yourself
permission to more fundamentallybe yourself.
And I'll just give anotherexample.
Let's take somebody who,through whatever trauma or

(40:26):
whatever they received in life,that they feel that they're not
worthy of being loved, and maybethey don't even love themselves
, maybe they hate themselves andmaybe they're constantly
critiquing themselves in theirmind and constantly second
guessing themselves andconstantly telling themselves
that they're not good enough,that they're not worthy.
And you go through thisexperience of being infinite,

(40:46):
unconditional love.
And then you realize I was just.
I was like punishing myself, Iwas telling myself I wasn't
worthy of being loved, butactually I am love.
So then how do I start to livemy life from that perspective?
And then also, you know, forsomebody who's felt really
separated and really cut off,that you start to realize.

(41:09):
You know, every person I everinteracted with is another
version of me.
Now, not my egoic me, notMartin, not Ellie, but just in
the sense that I am anembodiment of God.
Every other person I interactwith is also an embodiment of
God.
So the judgments I have aroundthem, the way that I want to

(41:30):
separate myself from others orput others down or raise myself
up, all of that is just games ofthe ego.
So it gives us an opportunity.
Only by getting all the way outof the ego Can we really see
how much the ego fucks with us,and then we can start to make
conscious choices about whetherwe want to choose to continue to
listen to the bullshit of theego or actually live from in a

(41:53):
more authentic place.
But in terms of the specificsof integration, really what it
takes most often like.
So I'll just give you anexample.
If somebody comes to me and says, hey, I've had a really
powerful or even challengingfive MEO DMT experience, can you
help me integrate it?
The way that I start is as okay.

(42:16):
First, just tell me whateveryou feel is significant about
your background.
Where do you come from, how areyou raised, what was your
childhood experiences like.
And then, depending on how oldthe person is, you're asking
okay, well, what are, what arethe different things that you've
gone through in your life andany significant traumas?
And I asked them like where doyou feel you've been most

(42:36):
authentically yourself, where doyou feel you've been least
authentically yourself, how areyou in your relationships?
And we start looking for kind ofpatterns.
We look to see where wheretheir energy might have gotten
stuck or blocked or distorted.
And then, if they have priorpsychedelic experience, I like
them to give me a little bit ofbackground.
So you tried ayahuasca whathappened?

(42:57):
You tried mushrooms whathappened?
And then, for their five MEOexperience, I like them, as best
as they can, to walk me all theway through the experience,
from what was the context, whatbrought you to it, what did you
hope to get out of it, how hasit served you?
What happened, how did youreact?
Very importantly, I always askabout what's going on with the

(43:18):
body.
It turns out.
Were you writhing around?
Were you curled up in a ball?
Were you open-spread eagle?
Were you crying?
Were you laughing?
Did you have an orgasm?
What happened?
And then, okay, what have youbeen experiencing afterwards?
And so what we're looking foris this idea that, by completely

(43:39):
flooding the system with thisinfinite energy, that we have
the opportunity to clear out therefuge of what has been
withheld from our emotionalrepression.
And then also, where are therepotentially patterns that might
be changing for you?
And also looking at like, well,what showed up for you right as

(43:59):
you were about to launch?
So, for example, a lot of peoplewho are parents that they
actually don't spill over intothe non-dual experience because
right when they're at thethreshold, they think, oh my God
, I'm never going to see my kidsagain, and so that's a way to
help people integrate.
It's like, okay, well, youdon't actually ever know when

(44:22):
death is coming.
So, if you're worried aboutleaving your kids behind, what
are you doing to live right nowas though today were your last
day?
Have you told your kids thatyou love them?
Have you encouraged them to bethemselves?
Or have you been like,dominating them with religious
ideology or political ideology?
Have you been telling them tobe something that they aren't?
How are you treating them?

(44:42):
So we get into all theseaspects.
I mean, it's very multifacetedin terms of like actually
helping someone integrate, andthere's no cookie cutter answer,
but it's always about lookingat it as an ongoing process and
whether someone is potentiallydeluding themselves which
happens with psychedelics a lotor if they're moving into

(45:02):
greater acceptance of truth andgreater sense of self-love,
greater sense of my heart isopening and I'm allowing myself
to love myself and come from aplace of love and place of truth
, or if I'm still trying to besomething for someone, even if
it's like, oh, my dead parentswould be ashamed of me, and so
I'm living according to thisprogram that I have of my dead

(45:23):
parents in the back of my mind.
So there's a lot of differentins and outs, but it's always
unique to each person, but it'sabout helping them really come
into a new relationship withtheir ego.
That is not this unconsciousbully that's beating them up and
telling them what to do, but itbecomes more of a partner in
the sense that, oh, I get toplay the character of my ego,

(45:45):
but I'm not imprisoned by it.

I like that.
Yeah, that's CS I mean I'vebeen playing with a lot lately.
I think psychedelics reallyhelp with.
Is is holding up this mirror orshowing you you know just the
stories, like you mentioned aswell as it's almost like
psychedelics help bring the mindand the body into alignment and
, like you said, you know youhave this huge amount of energy

(46:08):
come through and it can clearout these old blockages and and
traumas and things, and, likeeven I like to, which said about
the emotion or oppression aswell, something that I've really
experienced is just howpowerful these psychedelics can
be to help release theseemotions, especially really old
historical ones, from the body.

(46:29):
And then just seeing how then,once you've released that stored
survival stress from your body,how your mind almost auto
corrects, like you know, you cansit there and fight with your
ego, with your mind, like yousaid, all day, or you can.
You know what, what, what isdriving that ego?
You know?
Is that something in the body?
You know?
Is that something you can clearout, which is something I've

(46:50):
experienced which is really coolas well.
So so I guess, when you say youknow people, you mentioned
people deluding themselves withpsychedelics what, what do you
think causes that, or in certainpeople, because I've seen it
too.
It's almost like plant medicineor psychedelics they can give
you so many amazing tools, butthey won't do the work for you.

(47:11):
So I guess, yeah, why do youthink that is like the
psychedelics?
Yeah, some people are deludingthemselves.

Well, it's kind of like you just said that.
I do like to refer to allpsychedelic experiences, as you
are looking at yourself in aspiritual mirror.
And I like to say that thismirror that we open up when we
take psychedelics, it isinteractive and it's immediately
responsive to your emotionaland mental state, so that,

(47:47):
especially when we can see thisvery easily at, say, the
visionary level so let's say,somebody is in the middle of a
vision and then something makesthem feel uncomfortable and all
of a sudden the vision starts toturn dark and they're like, oh
shit, like, oh, the demons arecoming to get me and then all of
a sudden, oh, they're attackingme.
So there's this constantfeedback that's taking place

(48:10):
between what we're seeing, whatwe're feeling, what we're
experiencing, what we'rethinking.
And this is where we have toremember that the ego is built
up of stories and narrativesabout the self, and a lot of
those elements of those storiessimply are not true, but people
might have been habituated tobelieve them.
And so if we're dealing withthis interactive mirror and if

(48:36):
it's amplifying everything thatwe are, if we are lying to
ourselves and not willing toface the truth of that lie, then
it can just amplify the lie.
But the person can thenperceive that as truth and they
go oh look, I got this amazingmessage.
But no, it's just anapplication of the lie that you

(48:58):
told yourself.
So I mean, let's just take areally grandiose case.
Let's take someone who justthinks that they're the
spiritual shit.
They're like man I'm fuckingtop spiritual dog and people
definitely develop spiritualegos, there's no doubt about
that.
And then they take apsychedelic and in their

(49:21):
experience they perceivethemselves as the messiah and
they get the message like you'rethe one, it's all up to you.
But that's just feeding them inthe bullshit that they've been
feeding themselves for years.
And then they come out of itand they say, oh, I'm going to
start a cult and I'm now goingto be a cult leader, and usually
I don't put it in those terms,but that's what happens to

(49:43):
people and then actually whatit's doing is inflating these
dysfunctional aspects of theirego.
So this is where, in my opinion,if you actually want to be
liberated by psychedelics andeven below that, if you just
want to be transformed andhopefully healed and get a

(50:07):
little bit of relief in lifefrom whatever problems you are
creating for yourself, youabsolutely must be committed to
truth.
That has to be your primarycommitment, not I want to see
the things that make me feelthat I'm special and important.
It has to be.
I want to see the truth, and ifI'm bullshitting myself, please

(50:30):
bring that to me so that I cansee it for the bullshit that it
is.
But this is the thing that Ilike to say about psychedelics
that they do suspend our freewill to a degree, but of course,
we make the choice I'm going toconsume the psychedelic and
then it starts to loosen thebounds of what we're able to
control, and so surrender is ahuge part of working with

(50:53):
psychedelics, but they can'tever fully violate our free will
.
They cannot do that becausethey're only an amplification of
ourself, and so we can'toverride our own free will.
So this is why, like in the5MEO experience, it can't force

(51:14):
someone into a non-dualexperience, even if it's at an
unconscious level somewhere.
The ego must choose to trustand let go and have this
experience.
And this is where people theycan fight all the way through if
they want, and this is also aplace where I've seen people.

(51:35):
Ok, so this is kind of a harshexample, but many, many, many,
many, many years ago now, Iworked with this individual who
wanted to do a 5MEO session withme and he came over and he told
me before we started, said ohwell, I'm enlightened and
actually what I want to do, whatI use 5MEO DMT for, is I want

(51:57):
to contact my dead mother and Iwant to talk to her.
And just right away I was likedude, you're approaching this in
a completely delusional waybecause, a, you're not
enlightened and B, if yourmother is dead, you can't talk
to her.
Ok, because I also I'm aself-described radical
non-dualist that I don't believein spirits and ghosts and

(52:18):
afterlives or anything like that.
Because, let's just be reallyblunt, each and every one of us
is God pretending to be theperson that we are.
There's no soul in between usand God.
That God is the one actorplaying all the parts
simultaneously and there is noafterlife, because I mean,
that's just totally pointless.
What would it even be there for?

(52:38):
Anyway?
So this guy comes over and thenone of my requirements for
working with this so, whenpeople go into a non-dual state
this is why I'm always veryinterested in body language and
what's happening physically withthe body when people go into an
energetically, infinite,non-dual state in their bodies.

(53:00):
They always open up at thisbilateral symmetry.
So they go like this, they gointo this kind of spread eagle,
the star position, and that's agood indication that you are
fully open, because we can seeit in your body.
Versus someone who's clenchedup like this in a fetal position
, we can tell, oh well, you'renot open at all, you're

(53:21):
resisting, you're holding onbecause you're in a fetal
position, we can see it, there'sno question about this.
So anyway, this guy, he wants tosit there with his legs crossed
and meditation posture, andI've given him my instructions
that it's very important thatyou not have your legs closed.
But he's sitting there and he'ssaying I am enlightened.
But that's his ego speaking.

(53:42):
And it's like OK, so you'rejust fluffing your ego with this
experience.
And even in the middle of thathe's saying I am enlightened.
And I would tell him who areyou talking to?
He's like oh, you'reinterrupting me, I am
enlightened.
I was like who are you tellingthat to?
And so it's just kind of adramatic example of someone who

(54:05):
is just so firm in his beliefthat he was already enlightened
that he was using it as anexcuse to kind of puff up his
ego through the 5MEO experience.
And after that, I mean he didthis totally insincere Because
he was really irritated with me.
He's like, oh yeah, you'rereally enlightened.
I can see by how irritated youare.

(54:26):
He was totally irritated withme.
But then afterwards he did thiswhole oh namaste and he bowed
down to me Like I was some kindof master or something.
I was just like dude, what isthat?
And that's what I mean thatthat wasn't authentic at all.
You know, what would have beena lot more refreshing afterwards
is if he had said that wasreally fucking annoying how you

(54:49):
wouldn't let me say I wasenlightened, and then we could
have a conversation about it andthen I could tell him how this
is you bullshitting yourself,and then he could storm off in
anger and then I would say thatwas authentic.
But him like oh namaste, andlike bowing down, that was
totally inauthentic.
That was just like spiritualbullshit.

(55:10):
That he was like he's likeleaving a pile of spiritual
bullshit at my front door as hewas leaving and then pretending
that he left me a gift.
That's totally inauthentic.
I'm not interested in that.
So yeah, there's lots of waysthat people can bullshit
themselves with psychedelics,and that's what I mean that if
you're not committed to truth,so the truth is.

(55:32):
His ego thought he wasenlightened.
If he actually got theopportunity to go all the way
beyond his ego, then he wouldhave realized oh, my true nature
has always been enlightened.
But my ego is telling me astory that it was enlightened,
but it wasn't at all, because itwas just trapped in a story and
then that would give him theopportunity to completely
transform himself and to startletting go of the story and

(55:56):
start exploring.
How do I kind of vibe back intothat energy of already being
that?
So it's tricky business.
It's tricky business workingwith psychedelics and that's why
it is really important just totoot my own horn.
It is important to work withintegration coaches who are not

(56:18):
just going to just give youbullshit spiritual stories and
go like, oh wow, good job, I'mso proud of you, but actually
you know what I'm going to callyou out on that yeah, I'm going
to call you out on that for yourown sake that there needs to be
some tough love in theresometimes.

And I think to a therapist or an integration
counselor or coach or whateveryou want to call it.
Is you know someone who?
Because it's almost like if thetherapist can call out their
own bullshit, they're gonna seeit in other people.
Because that's that's what Ifind like.
The more I call out and see myown bullshit, my own stories,
I'm like okay, it gets easier tosee it in other people.
So I imagine that you knowcoaches who have really done

(56:56):
their work will be like you know, my, my housemate actually is
an integration coach and he'sjust like you can't get sucked
into the person's story.
You have to really just pullthem back and pull them back,
pull them out of it.
And and I guess, why do you?
Why do you think people have somany stories?
Like I guess you know likewhere do they come from?

(57:17):
Is it, is it a safety thing?
Is it to avoid feeling emotionsin their body?
Like Because everyone hasstories in their head, everyone
has this ego, like why do youthink it exists?

Well, that's where we get into that.
It's just a fundamental natureof being human.
So it's kind of unavoidablethat as human beings, first of
all, we do have these egos,these self-referential things
that say, whoa, I'm me.
And then when the, when thatrecognition happens, what also
happens is so what the hell isthe rest of this and what's

(57:52):
going on here?
And and who did this, and wheredid I come from?
And and who am I, and what am Isupposed to do?
And is there something I'msupposed to achieve?
And then how do I do it?
How do I know if I'm doing aright, right?
So the ego comes with sort ofall these existential questions,
and then what it does is itpicks up information from its
experience, that starts to putit into narrative form, because

(58:15):
also with this self-awareness,we can then project into oh well
, what's gonna be me in thefuture, and then we can also
reflect on, well, what was me inthe past.
So the narrative, the story form, is very natural to the human
experience and it'sfundamentally related to our ego
.
And this is also why Humanbeings, for as long as we can

(58:37):
tell, have always beenStorytellers.
And this is something that'sreally interesting, that if
other animals tell each otherstories.
We don't have any direct accessto that, so we don't know if
other animals are really tellingeach other stories or not.
So, for, based on like actualknowledge that we have, human

(58:57):
beings are the only storytellersthat we're aware of, and it's a
fundamental part of being humanand it's how we construct an
identity at the personal level,at the family level, at the
group or tribal level, at thenational level, at the Religious
level, right, for example,every single religion Comes with

(59:18):
a set of stories that says thisis who we are, this is how we
practice, this is what'smeaningful for us.
Every Nation has a story thatsays this is how we came to be,
this is our national identity,these are our values, this is
how we enacted.
So this, the storytelling, isvery, very natural, and we're

(59:39):
actually really fortunate thatwe live in an age where we have
all these different categoriesof stories.
We could say, oh well, this is abiopic, this is a historical
piece, this is a work of fiction, this is a work of nonfiction,
this is a memoir, this is afantasy story.
This is a magical story, thisis a fable, this is a children's

(01:00:00):
story.
But for most of human culture,we haven't really had all these
fine tunings of distinctions ofthe stories, and so we tend to
take stories as truth withoutreally analyzing it.
And it's also important torecognize that these stories,
especially when human beingslived in small tribal societies,

(01:00:22):
these stories were necessaryfor our survival as a species,
because the stories that thecultures tell themselves Talk
about how they developed theirvalues and how they can get
along as a small group, as asmall tribe, and what values are
important within that tribe.
And then the stories alsorelate to what are the different

(01:00:43):
plants that we can use formedicines and what do we use for
food and how does all thisstuff inter relate to it, so
that these stories like we cantake.
So you're from Australia, sothe Aboriginal song line stories
, where you have these storiesand these songs that actually
are maps across vast stretchesof the landscape that talk about

(01:01:03):
, well, this is what happened inthe dream time, but if you
follow the story, it willactually take you to
geographical locations that havewater or food or resources, and
so these stories are reallyintegral into how we have
survived as a species.
So it's such a fundamentallyhuman thing.
And so when we're dealing withthe personal ego.

(01:01:24):
Of course we have stories, buthere's where the difficulty
slips in is that stories we liketo have heroes and we like to
have Victims, and we like tohave the protagonist and the
antagonist and we like to havenice climaxes and we like to
have nice Resolutions, and wesay, okay, well, that was done,
and now I've moved on, and welike to have closures and we

(01:01:46):
have all these narrativeelements, but they don't really
reflect the true nature of lifeand the true nature of being.
And we also can then boxourselves in to, you know, again
, going back to someone who,through their childhood
Experiences, whatever it was,that they come out with the
belief that they arefundamentally unlovable, and so
they tell that story tothemselves, like why parents

(01:02:06):
didn't love me, my parents beatme, they abused me and I'm
unlovable.
And then they bring that beliefand that story into every
romantic Relationships that theyhave and then, soon enough,
they're then creating theconditions that allow them to
perceive you, I can see thisperson doesn't love me, they're
rejecting me, and but they're,but they're blind to, and these

(01:02:27):
are all the ways that I'vemanipulated the relationship to
get this outcome that I'veexpected, because I've affirmed
to myself that this story istrue.
Meanwhile, their heart isclosed down, they've got all
kinds of repressed andunprocessed energy in the body
Because they haven't really letthemselves go through the
grieving process that yeah, myparents were kind of assholes

(01:02:48):
but I am worthy of being loved,and so they haven't found that
sense of self-worth.
And you know they've.
Once we develop these stories,we spend our entire lives
reinforcing the story, and Thenalso, when we're operating from
a story, we tend to only lookfor the things that conform to

(01:03:08):
our story and we just ignoreeverything else that doesn't fit
within the story, because it'snot fitting in the boxes that
we've set up for ourselves.
So this is why it's a subtle,complicated process.
It's not an easy thing to justsay, okay, well, just love
yourself, just come on, justlove yourself.
It's like, no, I've got tounpack all this shit and then to

(01:03:28):
free ourselves from the storyand really and it could be hard
to acknowledge like, oh my god,I have been creating so much
suffering for myself becauseI've been telling my myself this
story over and, over and overagain.
But it's not true, because thenthe next story that comes on is
yeah, you fucking idiot, why'dyou fucking do that so stupid.

(01:03:52):
It's like oh, now I'm tellingmyself the story that I'm stupid
, right, so it's hard tountangle from these things.
But this is why working withpsychedelics with intentional
purpose is really useful,because it brings the stories
and and brings the shadows andit brings all of this stuff to

(01:04:13):
the surface so we can start tointeract with it in a new way.
We can release it, we cantransform it, but it's work.
I think you mentioned that it'swork.
This is not.
You know, one of the oldcritiques of psychedelics was
like oh, that's cheating, it'snot fucking.
Cheating like this is hardfucking work.

Ellie Goode (01:04:31):
So by someone who has probably never done
psychedelics before.

Martin W Ball (01:04:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, just cheating.
If you're doing that, it's notcheating at all.

Definitely not cheating.

Yeah, it's a lot of work and it takes dedication
to Really loving yourself andagain living in truth and being
in truth.
And if you're not into that,you know, then it's gonna take
you down some other route butit's not necessarily gonna be
liberating and transformative,and you know, that's what I'm
interested in, that you know,we've had enough storytelling on

(01:05:02):
the planet.
We've had enough bullshit thatwe we desperately need people to
live from a place of truth andauthenticity In order for us to
manage the crises that we aregoing through at the
geopolitical, social, economic,environmental I mean, you name
it.
We're going through it and thestories Don't help.

(01:05:25):
And, like here in the UnitedStates, we're under an Epidemic
of bullshit that we have apolitical party in this country
that is completely devoteditself to 100% bullshit and lies
.
And so I'm again, I'm not Onone side or the other because

(01:05:46):
I'm a non-dualist and I'm notcoming from the position of
being in one political party oranother.
I'm not interested in that, butI am very concerned that we do
have a political party in thiscountry that is completely
committed to bullshit and justspews lies and Untruths and then
treat them as though they'retrue and then goes about living
from that place and Bringingsuffering to themselves and

(01:06:09):
others.
That that's not functional.
We're living in a dysfunctionalsociety because the levels of
bullshit are just I mean,they're through the roof now and
that's not very sanitary aLittle cleaning up.

And so you mentioned authenticity and sort
of you know, deconstructingthese mental stories and, and
really I guess, getting to theheart of you, know who we are,
and part of that is, like youmentioned, going to the shadows
or dealing with these sort ofheavier emotions.
I guess, for someone who whofits that persona that you said
of feeling unloved, unworthy,how would you, I guess, work

(01:06:48):
with someone like that intostepping into a more authentic
version of themself?

Yeah, so usually with someone who's coming with
that kind of energetic construct, they probably need to go
through a lot of encounteringand releasing first before they
can really get, for example, toa breakthrough experience that
they probably have a lot ofbarriers that they've built up
within themselves.
And here's again where we'reemphasizing the idea of a

(01:07:16):
process, that we're not talkingabout singular events, but we're
about working on the processand working with psychedelic
therapy.
For example, they're probablygoing to need to encounter first
all of these beliefs aroundbeing unlovable and that have to
have that be played out at thepsychedelic interactive level

(01:07:38):
and then, as they start to havebreakthroughs there, we're
probably going to be seeing alot of purging.
There'll probably be a lot ofthrowing up taking place,
probably also a lot of deepcrying and wailing and screaming
and see, and even here this isan interesting place because a
lot of people have a lot that'sbottled up within them and this
is something that I get in myintegration calls that sometimes

(01:08:01):
the context in which they'retaking the psychedelic is not
really conducive for thisparticular person.
For example, let's say,somebody goes to a group
ayahuasca ceremony andenergetically, what they really
need to do to release all thisstuff is they need to wail and
scream and thrash about forseveral hours, but usually what
happens that, like an ayahuascaretreat center is eventually

(01:08:22):
someone's going to come over andsay, hey, you're disturbing the
other participants, can youtamp it down a little bit?
And even that's a tricky one,because then also there are
people who will indulge in thatthat don't necessarily need to
do that and they do need to betold hey, can you bring it down,
but other people, they actuallydo need to go through it.
And for people who facilitate,if they can't tell the

(01:08:44):
difference, then they're notgood facilitators.
That they need to be able totell the difference between this
is really authentic for thisperson versus this is some kind
of performance or indulgencethat we need to make a
correction on.
So people need to go throughthese releases and these can be
really, really hard and alsovery, very scary.
So this is where someone mightgo and say, well, that was just

(01:09:06):
fucking terrifying, it wasreally hard and I don't ever
want to do that again.
And this is where, if they havegood feedback, it's important
to remind people that, okay,this is a phase and you might
need to go through this phase abit more, there might be more of
this coming for you and, infact, just based on what you've
described from your life andyour beliefs and where you've

(01:09:28):
withheld love from yourself,there's a good chance that
there's more of this coming.
But once you work through that,then you have the opportunity to
expand into new areas and thenmaybe uncover the next layer
underneath that.
So, for example, let's saythere's someone who realizes
that they're abusive to theirkids and they want to deal with

(01:09:49):
that.
Maybe the first thing thatcomes up is like flashes and
memories of all the timesthey've abused their kid and
it's like my God, like reallytaking it in honestly and like
I've really been abusive.
And then they can start torelease some of the trauma
around that and some of theemotional baggage around that,
and then they can start toreorient their relationship with
their children.
But then underneath that is, oh, and then my parents abused me

(01:10:14):
and that's why I turned into anabuser, because I felt that
that's, that's how parenting wasdone.
And so then they can start towork on that.
And then they might evenrealize, oh fuck, my parents
were abused by their parents.
And so then they start my goingback in time and unraveling
layers of that.
And then they might even getinto a transpersonal state of
realizing like people have beenbeing dicks to each other for

(01:10:39):
millennia oh my God, we've beenlike enslaving other people,
we've been attacking theneighboring tribe and kind of go
into these transpersonal statesof really realizing that human
beings have.
You know, we've been prettyfucked up in terms of our
behavior towards each other.
And then we can get into racism, we can get into sexism, we can
get into homophobia and likerealize all these layers of hate
and abuse and domination and itjust feels like it's endless.

(01:11:04):
But then, once you've processedall that, and then you move
beyond it into the non dual andyou realize it's all love.
And then actually we can.
We can release the victimhood,we can release the abuser,
because actually it's all beenGod interacting with itself.
And so we can come from thisplace of unconditional love and

(01:11:25):
we can say, hey, I don't likethat, I don't want to do that, I
don't want to participate inthat, but I can also let go of
all my trauma and sufferingaround it because I'm not going
to be able to take it.
Actually everything is God andso we don't need to judge it.
We don't need to put it intocategories of right and wrong,
good and bad, because those arejust relative human categories.

(01:11:46):
And then, after that death,experience of the ego dying,
going into oneness and thenbeing reborn, then there's this
sense of now.
I get to choose how am I goingto be?
How am I going to embody lovein the world?
How am I going to embody truthin the world?
But, man, that's a process andthere are so many ways to get

(01:12:07):
lost or stuck along the way.
Like we mentioned before, ego orgrand diesman is one of the big
problems that we see a lot ofin the psychedelic community.
People who have like one or twoexperiences and they say, oh,
I'm called to serve the medicine, yeah, you haven't done your
work, man, and kind of like youmentioned before that.

(01:12:28):
My opinion is definitelyanybody who wants to do this
kind of work in service ofothers, you must have done this
within yourself first, that ifyou haven't done this within
yourself, do not ever even thinkof serving anybody else.
You've got to.
You have to come to the hardtruth of yourself, you have to
face yourself and you have toaccept yourself and love

(01:12:49):
yourself and know the differencebetween bullshit and reality
and if if you're not learningthat, don't be serving other
people, because you're probablyjust going to perpetuate their
own bullshit.

Yeah, definitely, definitely, and, and so I like
that.
You mentioned, I mean, there'sso many good things, but you
know, I guess, just thedifferent layers to this stuff,
in the sense that you know wehave our own stuff that we go
through, but then you know ourparents and grandparents and
society as a whole, just, Iguess, the different layers of
processing.
But you mentioned, you know,for a lot of people, the way to

(01:13:25):
process this or release thisstuff is it's very physical.
You know.
You mentioned purging orvomiting, rolling around on the
floor, crying, you know evenscreaming, and and releasing
that.
Do you find that because that'sbeen my experience too is is the
more I release stuff for mybody, just the better I feel

(01:13:47):
overall?
Do you find that's the case formost people, in the sense that
it's almost like these emotions,this, this energy, takes on a
very physical form, or thesestories have a very physical
element to them, and so by by,you know, physically purging,
crying, going through all thesephysical sensations, that it
that it helps shift a lot ofthese things.
Is that something you'venoticed in people as well, or

(01:14:10):
yes?

absolutely, and that's really where it's all
taking place, and I think thatthis is this is another place
where I think a lot of people inthe psychedelic movement or
community that they're basicallythey've gone astray, where a
lot of people talk about, well,your astral body or your past
lives, you know all thisimmaterial stuff and they say,
well, this is where the healingis taking place.
It's like, look, everythingyou've ever experienced is

(01:14:32):
lodged in your body.
Everything you've everexperienced has been through the
medium of your body.
Every thought you've ever hadhas taken place in your body.
Every emotion you've ever felthas been in your body.
Everything you ever know aboutanything, anywhere, anytime, has
been in your body.
Therefore, this is where we'reworking.

(01:14:52):
We're not working on the astral, we're not working in past
lives, we're not working on yourdisembodied energy centers or
anything like that.
It's all right here and it'sactually profound, because what
that means is that, as long asyou're in a body which is 100%
of your life, you actually haveaccess to all of this stuff and

(01:15:18):
that the potential to transformis there, because you don't have
to go looking across multiplelifetimes or out into the
universe to find what's wrongwith you.
Fuck, and look right here, beright here, and so for me,
psychedelic practice is verymuch an embodied practice, and
the highest levels ofpsychedelic experience is not an

(01:15:41):
out of body or disembodiedexperience, that's just a
journey of the ego into what Ilike to call the divine
imagination.
The highest level of experienceis being fully embodied and
fully present right here, rightnow, with no story and focus and
awareness.
That is for me that if you cando that, you're good.

(01:16:06):
You're good and if you havelearned how to be authentic with
yourself so that you say thethings that you really think,
you allow yourself to toexperience your emotions, you
don't repress them and you alsodon't hang on to them and you
don't identify with them.
But you let yourself be angrywhen you're angry, you let
yourself be sad when you're sad,let yourself be happy when

(01:16:26):
you're happy and you expressyourself authentically and
embody yourself authenticallythroughout all of that.
That's the best we can do ashuman beings, as I like to call
us God vehicles.
We are vehicles for God toexperience itself in and through
, and if we can just beauthentic and true within our
embodied experience, that is thebest we can do and that is the
place of liberation.

(01:16:46):
It's not drifting off into someascended realm or not coming.
You know, some disembodied saidI'm just going to float around
the universe because I'm totallyfree.
It doesn't happen.
That only happens in the divineimagination and it only happens
because you have a body fromwhich your awareness has been
dislodged and is going off intoa construct.
But living in reality is a veryembodied practice and embodied

(01:17:09):
experience and working withpsychedelics for transformation.
If it's not being embodied,there's something else going on
there and that's where I getconcerned.
It's like, well, there's,you're doing something different
, you're doing something elseand it might be bullshit story
creation that's happening here.

(01:17:29):
So let's get you back in yourbody, let's get you embodied.
And I know maybe it'suncomfortable, maybe this
difficult, dark stuff is comingup and it's even you know it's
not the substance of what you'rethrowing up, that's you know.
Like some people say, oh, it'scleanses you of toxins.
I was like what the fuck aretoxins?
Like we use this word all thetime.

(01:17:50):
Like nobody knows what it evenmeans.
Like, oh, you're releasingtoxins and it's not about that.
It's actually about oh shit,yeah, I am dislodging stuck
energy, and the dislodgment ofstuck energy is coming in the
form of throwing up and it'sopening up my body as it's doing
.
That.
That's what the purging isabout.

(01:18:11):
And even when people get intothe deepest levels and they're
purging this really dark,difficult stuff, if they're in
that non-dual state, it willalso be an experience of oh,
these are all the parts ofmyself that I hated or was
ashamed of, but actually I loveit because everything is love
and so I can love it.
I don't need to keep it in, Ican get it out.

(01:18:32):
I don't need to like, live atthis shit, but I can still love
it.
I don't have to hate it.
And that is where this, thisagain, living in love, living in
unconditional love Again, itdoesn't mean you have to like
everything.
Liking and loving things aretwo different things, you know
and that's another place where alot of people get confused that
they did develop a spiritualpersona of oh, I'm going to be

(01:18:55):
nice to everyone all the timeand I'm going to be happy about
everything all the time and I'mjust going to come from this
place of love.
But that's performing, that'sacting, that's not genuine,
because sometimes love is angry.
Why did you intentionally hurtme?

It's boundaries yeah.

Yeah, so there's room.
I like to say that we are fullspectrum energy beings and then
we have permission to experiencethat full spectrum and
sometimes it's angry, sometimesit's ugly, but we are that
energy.
It's important for us to be theenergy that we are so that we
can live from a place of truth,not be a construct of who we

(01:19:36):
think we should be and thenprojecting that out onto others
of, oh, I'm certainly superspiritual because I'm happy all
the time, even when the worstpossible things happen to me, I
say, oh, I'm so grateful.
No, you're not, it's just, it'snot true.

Yeah, it reminds me of like, you know, coming back
to that piece of being authentic, and it's like, if you feel
anger, you know, usually anger,I find, is someone's crossed a
boundary or done something.
That's that's you know doesn'tfeel right in your experience
and so being authentic in thatsense is not being nice.
It's saying, okay, calling thisperson out or saying you know,
this made me feel XYZ, you know,asserting a boundary, depending

(01:20:14):
on what the situation is,obviously.
And it's just coming back toyou know, it's almost like the
same with truth and authenticity.
They're very, I think, you know,one and the same, to a degree
of of you know truth is is what,what is here now, you know true
, it's like, how do we definetruth?
It's like, well, what can yousee, what can you feel?
You know what is your directexperience, and it's almost like

(01:20:36):
that that's what truth is.
And so you know thinking oflike past lives or, you know,
going off into the astral plane.
It's almost like that's adistraction or a dissociation
from present day reality.
So it's almost like to be yourauthentic self and to be
truthful is just being presentand being, you know, with you,
with yourself and yourexperience.
Yeah, yeah, even if, like yousaid, that's really difficult

(01:20:58):
and uncomfortable which it canreally be at times, but that
that's truth, yeah.

Yeah, I do like to say that at the deepest
levels.
Truth, energy, reality, I, you,we, god, these are all synonyms
.
So, in perfect alignment withwhat you just said, truth is the
energy of what is present righthere, right now, because energy
is real and so I can say thesun is truthfully shining right

(01:21:30):
now because you can see it on me.
Okay, now, if we get into, ohwell, the sun is the spiritual
center of our galaxy and it'sbeaming out encoded messages of
enlightenment through the lightbeams.
And it's like, ah, man, we'rejumping into metaphysics there,
now that now you're telling aspiritual story and and then,

(01:21:52):
well, I'm a receiver of lightmessages because I'm a light
worker.
So, okay, now we've completelygone away from what's really
happening right here, right nowWe've gone into stories.
So let's come back.
No, the sun is shining.
Okay, that's enough, let's,let's leave it there.
You know, and it could be hardto keep bringing people back to
know what's actually true righthere, what's true right now,

(01:22:13):
okay, that's a story, that's astory.
And the thing is, when peoplebecome start to become aware of
this, they realize like, oh,fuck, I'm doing this like all
the time.
Oh, my God every day.

I had that experience once.
I'm like Holy shit.

Yeah, so it can be intimidating, yeah, but the
plus side is that if you canwork through all of this, what
you realize is that I've beenexpending tremendous amounts of
energy propping up the story andliving out the story and now
that I'm free, I can just I canfree up my energy to actually be

(01:22:51):
true and, like, do the thingsthat I want and live the life
that I want, because I'm notexpending all of this energy
maintaining these stories andthen I can really be present
with what's happening right here, right now.
And then every person that I'mwith, I'm really with that
person.
Every project that I'm workingon, I'm really working on that
project.
Every conversation I'm having,I'm really having that

(01:23:13):
conversation because it's justpresent.
And, yeah, that's.
That's the real gift, that'sthe real beauty.

Totally, totally, it's awesome and so it's sort of
coming up on time.
But do you want to sort ofmention about your your 12th
audiobook, which 12 audio booksis a huge feat, and, yeah, the
soundtrack that goes with it?

Yeah, yeah, well, thanks for giving me the
opportunity to talk about it.
I mean, it's kind of out ofcontext, but the whole
conversation that we've beenhaving but, yeah, I'm a projects
guy.
I love working on projectsbecause I love just pouring
myself energetically andauthentically into this is what
I'm doing and I get reallyexcited about it.
So, yeah, the project that Ijust finished was creating my

(01:23:57):
12th audiobook, and for me,audiobooks the whole thing is
like a fun artistic project,because I record my own audio
and then I record music to goalong with my different audio
books, and so the cycle, wholepackage of stuff, and then I
designed the covers and all ofthat.
So where I started as an authoris I wrote a fantasy series.

(01:24:21):
You know, not ambitious at all.
I just decided, oh, I'm gonnawrite a fantasy series.
No experience as a writer, sothat's why I started as an
author and that became a seriesof four books and I actually
started writing those back in2002.

(01:24:41):
So it was kind of a ways backthat I wrote those.
But in 2020, I made anaudiobook for the first of those
four books and that was Orbi'svision and created a whole
musical soundtrack to go withthat.
That's kind of integrated intothe story.
And this year that was, I wantedto start the year with Okay,

(01:25:04):
what's my big project that I'mworking on now?
And that was okay, I'm gonna dothe fate of Marani.
So that's book two.
So I recorded all the audio forthat and then I spent about
three weeks recording 14 tracksoundtrack to go with that.
And Wow, and even as I wasworking on the audio book and
I'm rereading the book itactually been a while since I'd
read the book because I wrote ita while ago I was just feeling

(01:25:27):
so inspired.
I couldn't wait to get to themusic.
I really want to record themusic.
I'm so excited to write, youknow, compose these songs.
But it's like, okay, gotta waittill you record all the audio
first.
You know those, as I'm tellingmyself.
So then, because I do like towork in stages so that I can
really devote myself tosomething and not have other
distractions, so I finishedrecording all the audio and it's

(01:25:49):
like, hey, now I get to writethe music.
And I must say so.
I created this album.
It's called the fate of Marani,the soundtrack, and currently
it's like my favorite thing thatI've done musically.
I released lots of music.
But I'm just, I'm just so intothe songs that I wrote for this
that I'm really, really happywith it.
And actually, after I finishedit, I took a night where I took

(01:26:10):
some MDA and was just likelistening to the soundtrack and
I was like, oh my God, I lovethis.
And so, yeah, that book justgot released in audio book, is
also in paperback and ebook, butit became my 12th audio book
and also released the soundtrack.
So that's out there where youcan find digital music under my
name and yeah.

(01:26:33):
So now I'm sort of in transitionexcuse me, before starting the
next set of projects that I wantto do.
And so there's there's morestuff coming up in this.
So there's two more books tothe series and I hope in the
next couple of years I hope thatI will get to both of those.
But it's a big thing to likerecord all the audio.
I mean, that takes like weeksand months to do that and then

(01:26:54):
for each one I'll make a newsoundtrack for it.
So, and that's for me that'sexciting, it's like I have
something to look forward to, islike, oh yeah, there's gonna be
a time when I get to thealchemist in the eagle.
That's book three, and thenthere'll be a time when I get to
the fifth temple, which is booknumber four, and then I'll have
other projects meanwhile alongthe way.
But I really enjoy creativeexpression and especially things

(01:27:17):
that use like multimedia, thatI can kind of get into all these
different aspects of creativeexpression.
So, yeah, those are my newestthings that are out and
available now.

Awesome, awesome, I'll be.
I'll be sure to put the linksin the show notes so people can
find it as well.
But where can people sort ofconnect with you or find out
more about you as well?

Yeah, well, my central hub is just Martin
ballnet.
That's my personal web page,and there you can find links to
my podcast.
You can find links to myYouTube channel, which is the
entheogenic evolution.
That's also the name of mypodcast.
You can find that anywhere youcan find podcasts is the
entheogenic evolution.
I also have a Patreon page forpeople who want to support and

(01:28:02):
get access to various bonusesand whatnot, and so that's at.
You know, patreoncom slashMartin W ball.
And yeah, you can find me onFacebook at Martin W ball.
I have to use the W my, mymiddle initial, because when I
first started out as an author,there was a Martin ball who was

(01:28:22):
writing books about Welshphonetics.
So I wanted to use the W todistinguish myself.
But I made a mistake.
I made a terrible mistake.
I'll tell you what it was.
With my music, I've always justused Martin ball, because
people never use their middlename when they're a musician,
right?
But the problem is that when Istarted releasing music

(01:28:43):
digitally online, there wasanother Martin ball who had beat
me by a year.
He started releasing musiconline a year before I did.
And this other Martin ball hismusic is Christian praise and
gospel music and my music, eventhough he released one album,
but it came out before me.

(01:29:03):
Most musical outlets online lumpour music together because we
have the same name and theycan't figure it out.
I mean, this is it actually?
I was in touch with, like Applemusic, where it took me like
five years to get them toseparate our music and then
actually list words like at thebottom of your Apple music pages

(01:29:26):
here's the here are similarartists, and finally they had
changed it over to stuff thatwas more like electronic
psychedelic kind of music and Iwas like, oh yay, finally I'm
free from the other Martin ball.
And then, like six months ago,I opened up my Apple music page
and, by God, it changed backover to now all the similar

(01:29:48):
artists are all like Christian,christian praise and gospel
music artists, and so and it'sbeen that way on YouTube, it's
been that way on Amazon music,it was on that way on Spotify
for a number of years, and soit's just like one of these
great ironies of my life that mymusic is lumped in with this
Christian praise and gospelstuff and my music is definitely

(01:30:09):
not that in any way.

Yeah, it's just God and everything coming through.

Yeah, I always like to say God has a super
wicked sense of humor, just adivinely wicked sense of humor.
So be prepared.
And like.
This is one of the ways that itjust manifests for me.
It's like there seems to benothing I can do to separate
myself from this other Martinball and I just need to live
with it.
You know, even making music forlike 35 years and my music gets

(01:30:35):
put under his.

Yeah, I wonder if, like the Christian gospel, are
referring onto your platform aswell.
So, like all these Christiansare now listening to, like
psychedelic electronic music oryeah, that's what happens on on
YouTube and YouTube music.

If I release a music video, I will.
Then I can find it on Christianpraise playlist.
I was like, but do they not, dothey not listen to the music?
They just go look, martin ballreleased something new, so let's
put it in.
So it's, it's really crazy,it's crazy.
And even there was even once,many years ago, where his

(01:31:14):
royalties were paid to me.

Oh, wow, yeah they've meshed, you guys
together.

Yeah, and then I was because I don't make a lot
of music, I don't, I make a lotof music, I don't make a lot of
money from music.
And then one day I got like acheck for $800 like oh my God,
like what happened.
And then, you know, I contactedthe royalty association, was
like, oh, that's the wrongMartin ball.
That's awesome.

(01:31:46):
And the weird part is thisother Martin ball, he's never
done anything to try andseparate our music.
So I don't get what it is Like.
I've tried so hard and it'smostly been met with a dead end.
But I mean he could also get inthere and say hey, you know,
we're two different people here,same name, two different people
.
But anyway, oh yeah, and myAmazon author page is just

(01:32:07):
Amazoncom slash.
Author slash Martin W Ball.

Awesome, awesome.
Well, yeah, thank you so muchfor coming on the podcast.
It's been a really interestingdiscussion.
Yeah, I appreciate it.

Yeah, I've had a great time.
Thanks for having me on andthanks for the good questions
and the good contributions.
It's been nice to riff off ofeach other.

Thanks for listening and before you go,
please hit the subscribe orfollow button and make sure
those notifications are ticked,If you've done it already.
Thank you so so much.
I'll catch you next week.

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Martin W. Ball, PhD — 5-Meo-DMT, Non-Duality, The Science Of Psychedelics, Spiritual Bullshit, Ego Transformation and More - #31

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Martin W. Ball, PhD — 5-Meo-DMT, Non-Duality, The Science Of Psychedelics, Spiritual Bullshit, Ego Transformation and More - #31