Nele Vandersmissen — Create Your Own Magic: The Power of Awe, Wonder, Meaningful Conversations, Curiosity and More - #30

Ever wondered how you can create more magic in your everyday life?

Or how an appreciation of nature can open the floodgates to big experiences of awe and wonder?

This episode with Nele Vandersmissen holds the answers.

We discuss the power of awe in reducing our mental chatter, easing stress, and amplifying our desire to help others.

Nele describes how awe can enhance your life satisfaction and wellbeing. We dive into the practical ways you can create more wonder and awe in your life, even if you experience lots of grief, sadness, or anxiety.

We travel further, exploring the importance of being present in our lives. We learn from Nele about how slowing down, truly listening, and appreciating nature can lead to unexpected awe-filled moments.

From the significance of animist worldviews to the potential of psychedelics as a gateway to a deeper appreciation of life (and ourselves), our conversation unfolds into a fascinating tapestry of insights.

We talk about the beauty of discomfort and how feeling multiple emotions simultaneously can lead to a more profound experience of life.

Discover the magic of asking about someone's name: how a simple question can spark wonder and curiosity. And why focusing on personal experiences trumps discussing labels and achievements.

We also explore how cultivating curiosity in children can reshape our consumer-driven society. Nele shares how unlocking joy, finding purpose, and following our impulses to create a meaningful life is an exciting journey of rediscovery - of wonder, connection, and our place in the world.

So, are you ready to join us?

Connect with Nele here: https://www.wondr.global/

Past episodes and show notes are located here: https://www.sexmoneyrage.com/podcast

"Genuinely thank you for creating this space for people like-minded to talk openly and feel OK to talk about these things." Beau, Australia

Disclaimer:
I do not promote trying plant medicine or psychedelics (they are a whole other beast). All information provided is for general information and educational purposes only. Please consult with your doctor and do your own research before diving in. There are risks involved, it can interact with certain medications, and it's illegal in most Western countries.

I'm not a doctor, therapist, or counsellor, and nothing said on the podcast is a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, treatment, or a professional therapeutic relationship. All content is intended to provide general health information for educational purposes only.

Episode Transcript

Ellie Goode (00:04):
Welcome to the Sex Money and Rage podcast.

Nele Vandersmissen (00:08):
And one of the things that he said is that
I'm really confused as to why wehave all these mindfulness
practices we're promoting, wherewe're trying to help people get
to a neutral state, you know,like we're trying to get them to
a place where they don't feelterrible.
Like why are we doing that?
What the hell is that about?
If you have all of this magicand wonder available in the

(00:30):
world, we should be teachingyoung kids to cultivate wonder.
But I do think a lot of ourmindfulness practices are
intended to get you to neutraland I'm like but you know what
is that?
We could just be so joyful.
What if we all just startedcultivating wonder and have this

(00:50):
incredible capacity to bemasters of our own lives?

Ellie Goode (00:58):
Welcome back to Sex , money and Rage.
I'm your host, ellie, and thankyou for tuning in again.
We have another great episodetoday with Neela Vendasmussen.
We talked about the power ofawe and wonder and what that
does to your body, your emotions, your mind being in a state of
awe.
I came across some researchwhile preparing for this podcast

(01:20):
from Harvard Business Reviewabout the power of awe and
wonder and the effects it canhave on the mind, the body, on
your nervous system.
So I wanted to read out asnippet from this article, which
I will link to in the shownotes for anyone interested.
So, university of Michiganpsychologist Ethan Cross defines
awe as the wonder that we feelwhen we encounter something

(01:41):
powerful that we can't easilyexplain.
Think of a starry night sky, anact of great kindness or the
beauty of something small andintricate.
It could be anything thatleaves you in the feeling of awe
.
They then go further down tosay some of the benefits of awe.
So as you focus on somethingbigger than yourself, something
externally incredible, whathappens is your sense of self

(02:04):
shrinks, so does your mentalchatter and your worries, and at
the same time, your desire toconnect with and help others
increases.
People who experience or alsoreport higher levels of overall
life satisfaction and well-being.
There's also positive effectson stress and resilience.
So people who experience oralso experience lower stress
levels, and there's some recentexperimental research that

(02:26):
suggests that awe can actuallyreduce stress.
So there's a causalrelationship there.
So I was really surprised bythat.
I didn't realize there'd bescience around it.
So that was a really lovelydiscovery.
And, yeah, neela just has somereally really cool stuff to say
about how do we cultivate wonder?
So, instead of waiting for asituation which puts us in awe,

(02:49):
how do we practically createthat in our life?
So we're not waiting forsomething to unleash that within
us that we can go out andactually create it ourselves.
So we talked about that.
We talked about the power ofhow it helps us and how, as
Neela mentioned in the introsnippet, that most, or at least
a lot of mental health practicesout there are trying to get us

(03:09):
to a point of feeling, okay,neutral.
And she makes this point oflike, what about all the joy and
the wonder that's out there?
How do we get that?
You know, everyone wants to behappy, everyone wants to feel
joy, and so how do wepractically create this in our
lives, and so I had a lot of funinterviewing Neela.

(03:29):
She's worked for Snapchat, shehas received grants from the UN.
She has just combined somereally, really cool, different,
interesting practices togetherto help people just create more
wonder in their lives and tofeel more amazed at life.
So if that sounds good to you,then keep listening.
You're going to enjoy thisepisode.
If you've been listening to thepodcast and you're enjoying it,

(03:51):
that's awesome.
Please hit the subscribe orfollow button If you haven't
already.
It will pop up a notificationon your phone whenever new
episodes go live, which at themoment, is fortnightly.
Yeah, and thank you to everyonewho subscribed and left five
star reviews.
It really means so much to me.
So that's it from me.
I'm going to go through thisepisode and let's jump in.

(04:12):
Welcome.
Welcome, neela.
It's great to meet you.
So I wanted to first of allwelcome welcome to the podcast,
and I wanted to start off byasking you.
I was reading through yourwebsite in preparation and you
mentioned something aboutbelieving in magic, and I wanted

(04:33):
to ask what do you mean by thisGreat?

Nele Vandersmissen (04:37):
opening question.
Thanks for having me Sure, Ijust believe that there is a lot
possible beyond what we canperceive with the eyes or even
with all of our you know, knownsenses.
So I think that we all havethese experiences I call them
numinous pearls in life wheresomething happens that is kind

(05:00):
of inexplainable.
So we have this experience ofsomething that's like wow, you
know, the odds of that happeningare nil, and I think that
everyone I mean I'm pretty surethat everyone that you meet on
the street, random strangers cantell you about one story they
have about something happeningthat's quite magical, you know.

(05:22):
And I also think that we havethe possibility to have more of
those moments and to be theco-creator of those moments,
rather than the person that ithappens to, and that, I think,
is a really interesting way tolook at life.
So what if we start living lifeand think as if we're the

(05:42):
creators of this magic, like weare the people that are painting
this masterpiece of a life, andwe are saying, yes, I'm
standing here, let's, you know,let's co-create more magic.
And then it happens and I cantalk about this for a very long
time, because I know that thereis actual physics to this as
well and like how can you hirethe propensity of this happening

(06:04):
, etc.
But I 100% believe that thosemoments, those meaningful
moments in life that are magical, that we have the capacity to
create more of them as humanbeings, and we're currently not
doing it and I'm kind of likewhy not?

Ellie Goode (06:20):
Why are you not doing that?

Nele Vandersmissen (06:23):
That's a short answer to your question.

Ellie Goode (06:26):
Yeah, amazing, amazing.
I also think this is a goodplace to start.
So so I guess, in terms of youknow, I mean, who doesn't want
more magic in their lives?
Who doesn't want more wonderand excitement?
So I guess, what is it?
Do you think that holds peopleback from creating, like you
mentioned, co-creating thiswonder?
I think that's a really coolconcept.

(06:47):
What do you think holds peopleback from doing that?

Nele Vandersmissen (06:51):
Oh, also a great question.
I think there's two main things.
One of them is something that Ilike to call people get a bit
domesticated.
So it means that you kind ofstart fitting into all of these
societal beliefs and expectationand you start shaping your

(07:12):
personality to what you think isexpected of you or what you
think will make you haveperceived success in life.
And so for most people thatmeans you have this dream of all
these things you want toachieve or accomplish or
actually buy.
Usually there are things youwant to have or things you know,

(07:34):
labels you want to giveyourself, and we think that when
we have those things, that thenwill be happy.
And that's, I mean, I guessthat's what society tells us,
and so we're conditioned tobelieve that.
And so a lot of people livetheir lives kind of projecting
their happiness or their magicinto the future.
So they're like, once I havethis label or this status, or

(07:54):
this house or this car, thisthing, then I'll feel fulfilled.
But none of the magic happensin that space, you know, because
no one at the end of their lifelooks back and is like,
remember the time I got 500Facebook likes?
You know, like those are notthe moments that you look back

(08:18):
on and that created meaning inyour life.
So one of them is we actuallybecome domesticated and we start
living our lives the way we'vebeen told, the way our society
kind of paints a picture for usthat we should, and we've
forgotten to actually dream ourown dream and and, and you know,

(08:39):
of course, when you startdreaming your own dream, then
often and you know, this isgreat for this podcast, I think,
because a lot of these subjectsare taboo but a lot of those
things that we really want don'tfit within that picture.
You know a lot of those thingshave more freedom.
You know, more feeling, morethings that could potentially

(09:01):
upset that status quo, or that,like you know, you need to buy a
car, get a mortgage and, andyou know, have some labels that
you can stick on.
So so that's the first one.
And then the second one is, Ithink that currently we are
actually, as children, no longertrained to really experience

(09:23):
and cultivate wonder, and so wedon't have the capacity so much
to actually feel in our bodiesthese wild emotions and other,
you know, other aspects ofwonder.
I think there's many aspects toit.
One of them would be reallyhaving wild emotions.
So being moved by the world andbeing moved by people around

(09:45):
you and allowing for thatfeeling to really be present in
your body, so that you're notkind of trying to keep it, that
you're not trying to experiencesomething in a way that's
acceptable for others, again inthat domestication thing, you
know, like what if you could bejust wildly moved by things?
What if you were moved to tearsand you got goosebumps and you?

(10:07):
You know that to me is wildemotion and that's something
that you get throughexperiencing wonder.
But it's not something that wereally support children with
anymore.
Like, let's go explore thesethings in the natural world,
that will blow your mind andthen you can also fully express
how you feel about that.
So a lot of people actuallyjust don't have the skill of

(10:29):
cultivating more than oneemotion in their body.
So this, you know, this wildemotion, this, this wild wonder,
is not a feeling that manypeople have cultivated and know
how to touch.
And I think that being able tocultivate the feeling function
of your body and having manyfeelings not all of them

(10:50):
positive at the same time, butlike that is also the foundation
of creating more magic in yourlife.
So then wonder becomes thegateway, like if you can
cultivate wonder and really havewild emotion and be blown away
and cultivate these positivefeelings in your body and kind
of do it whenever you want toand not just sit there and wait

(11:14):
for the moment to find you, thenthere's just going to be more
moments like that.
It feels simple.

Ellie Goode (11:20):
I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, yeah,it sounds simple.
I think for people, you know,like you said, like if it's not
something that's beingcultivated or practiced, then
people are going to be like whatis this?
How do I create this?
This feels foreign.
So I think, yeah, I think,especially mentioning about
feeling it in your body, youknow it's, it's, you know, I
think as humans, we can all belike, oh, I, I think I'm angry

(11:44):
or I think I'm happy, and it'slike, but do you feel it Like?
What do you feel in your body,and does that connect with your
mind?
Or so I really liked thefeeling wondering in your body
piece as well, and so I guess,what would that feel like?
Like I guess I know kind ofroughly what I would feel, but
yeah, when you, yeah, work withwonder, yeah, yeah, it can be

(12:07):
very many things.

Nele Vandersmissen (12:08):
I think the beauty of it is that wonder is
not one emotion, but it's acompound of different feelings,
and so it can be many things.
But for me it could be like Icould be watching a sunset and
just be having this feeling ofwow.
There's, you know, possibility,like a feeling of like

(12:29):
everything is possible, or afeeling of like being blown away
by beauty, a feeling of kind oflike smallness you know where
the world is so big and you'relike wow, that excitement, like
wonder, can be excitement.

(12:49):
You can have joy.
I mean, I'm sure there's aminute like happiness, there's a
minute.
You can kind of compound them.
Also, it's not just one oneemotion.
Curiosity is a good one too,because you actually have a
moment you experience wonderwhen you're in the presence of

(13:11):
something you can't quiteexplain.
You know that is like out ofthe ordinary, and those moments
are there all the time.
You can look for them, likeeven if you just pick up a leaf
and you look at it and youappreciate the geometry and how
wild the coloring of that is,and that's kind of inexplainable
, you know.
You're like wow, how did it?
You know could spend thelifetime just doing that and so

(13:37):
having the capacity to do thatand find it creates more of it.
But yeah, that is thecultivation of the slowing down
and actually letting the thinghit you in the body.
That's how you can practice it.
So you would, I always say topeople, if you want to go, stock
it like, if you want to go outand stock, wonder it and you
kind of slow down.
So it's like having a calmnervous system and you would go

(14:01):
for a walk or you know, you'dsit somewhere and you'd have
your phone off or on airplanemode and you'd actually just
take a moment to let somethingcommunicate with you, because
it's a relational quality, soyou would be in communication
with you know, a rock, a leaf, asunset, something in nature or

(14:24):
a person.
Because you can have wonder byhaving a conversation with a
person and just being reallyblown away by that person's
resilience or strength or moralbeauty and actually just taking
the time to fully listen.
So it's all about slowing downand being present and allowing

(14:46):
for the other thing to be inrelationship with you and then
allowing for the thing, theperson or the item or the thing
in nature to move you and thennoticing like how many different
emotions can you conjure up?

Ellie Goode (15:07):
Yeah, probably a lot, a lot, yeah, nice Amazing.

Nele Vandersmissen (15:16):
What is your ?
What is your favorite?
Like if you had to name onething, I'm just going to ask you
a random question, but onememory that you have in your
life where you were justawestruck by something and could
be a person or something innature or, you know, like a
festival or something, anything.

Ellie Goode (15:33):
Yeah, I guess, when that comes to mind would be
where I live.
So we live on a maybe like aacre block or half acre block, a
couple thousand meters, and welook at um facing this huge
mountain and it's got so manydifferent textures and colors

(15:54):
and it's it's so vivid that it'slike it's breathing.
I don't know or like if you'veever if someone's listening and
you've ever taken mushrooms andstuff kind of glows or breeds.
It has that quality, butwithout having any um
psychedelics obviously, justlooking at it so often in the
morning, like I'll, I'll just besitting out there and I'm just

(16:16):
in wonder and awe because, like,like he's mentioned that,
feeling really small.
So the mountain is so huge,like it would be.
The top of this mountain wouldprobably be 1500 meters
elevation from where I am, andwe're already at 3000 meters
elevation, so it's it's veryhigh and so to be sitting at the
base of it looking up umdefinitely creates a wonder

(16:39):
experience for me.
Yeah.

Nele Vandersmissen (16:42):
Oh, that's amazing.
That's amazing that you justhave that on your doorstep.
So it's there all the time,very lucky, yeah, yeah, yeah,
it's awesome, yeah, I think, um,also often, when we live in
places that don't have thisaspect of nature so prevalent,
people forget to thateverything's alive, you know,

(17:05):
like, and the thing is, if youlook at, I'm sure, where you are
, um, the traditional peoplethat live there still have an
animist worldview, so they wouldsee that mountain as a living
being that they can be incommunication with and are in
communication with, no doubt,and and for us, we've started in

(17:25):
our predominant Westernworldview.
I think we've started seeingeverything in nature as like,
inanimate, almost like we.
We are the people that haveconsciousness but nothing else
has, and so when you pick up arock, it's not alive, you know.
A mountain's not alive, a treedoesn't really have, you know,
but for most people inindigenous cultures they have an

(17:49):
animist worldview.
So everything is alive and youcan communicate with, and it has
a spirit and has something totell you, or you know, and then
your life is filled with wonderall the time, because you can
just be like having aconversation with a tree or a
rock or taking a moment tolisten to the sunset, you know,
and then it just changes lifeentirely.

(18:11):
Like, can you imagine that it'sjust always available?
Yeah, and so I think, like themagic of that is is always
available.
We've just kind of gottendomesticated or stuck in like,
oh, that's not natural.
Or will people think, if Istart talking to a tree, you
know, but like, but like yousaid when you're in psych, on

(18:34):
psychedelics, so you takemushrooms and everything's alive
, you know, and then you're like, oh, then everyone's suddenly
talking to trees.

Ellie Goode (18:41):
Yeah, because I think we should be yeah.

Nele Vandersmissen (18:48):
Yeah, it's like a remembering.
I think that's what it does.
I think people just remember.
And then also on psychedelics,I think people you know kind of
that domestication sheen drops,so like those, I call them the
secret agents.
That are the you know thevoices inside that try to keep
us walking in line and keep us,you know, keep us acting the way

(19:12):
we should be acting to beaccepted in society.
But in essence they're keepingus small.
But the secret agents, I thinkthey take a vacation.
When you take psychedelicsthey're like in a different room
or something.

Ellie Goode (19:25):
They're having a time out Time out.

Nele Vandersmissen (19:30):
Yeah, and so then, yeah, for a lot of people
I think it's a really goodgateway to actually experience
life as it should be experienced, as it kind of always is
available, you know, but youjust have temporarily forgotten
or bypassed that capacity, andthen it's a good way, I think,

(19:51):
to kind of clear that channeland then be like, oh, this is
just available all the time Icould.
I'm not sure why I'm notaccessing this more often.

Ellie Goode (20:02):
Yeah, it's interesting, like what you
mentioned about inanimateobjects.
I've had that experience awhile ago when I went to Lima
just for a few days and fromliving in like a tiny village in
the mountains to then going toLima, huge city, it was like
well for my nervous system andit was interesting.
I was sitting in a restaurantand it was like just by looking

(20:25):
at, because there was so muchcommotion going on, and just by
looking at the furniture orthese structures of the
restaurant that were not moving,it was like I could become
really still as well.
And so you know, this wholecrazy city energy is going on
and I'm just like talking to thechair in a restaurant and you

(20:46):
know, hey, man, can we chill outtogether?
Yeah, and it was such a coolexperience of just being able to
, I guess, align or focus,because it's like what you focus
on, you create more of.
So, by focusing on thestillness of this concrete
structure or furniture, it waslike I could align to that and
it was such a cool experience,yeah.

Nele Vandersmissen (21:09):
I love it.
Yes, nailed it.
I think that's it.
We have the capacity to be inrelationship with everything,
and it's not the same as talkingto a human being, but
everything has information forus.
Or we could even be curiousabout like there's wonder in
everything.
I could be like I wonder whomade this cup, I wonder where

(21:31):
that came from, I wonder what'sin it.
You know, like I could spendthe day doing that and the same
as with the chair, or just belike what's the information this
thing has for me right now andjust listen and be still and see
what happens.
Yeah, and then everything iskind of magical and I also
really you know, like you saidyou, what you focus on, you

(21:52):
create more of.
That's exactly it.
So what if you start perceivinglife as magical all the time
and you see the wonder ineverything?
Then you know, guess what?
It just becomes more wonderful.

Ellie Goode (22:05):
That's really cool.

Nele Vandersmissen (22:07):
Yeah, so that's kind of like, the more
you can perceive it, the higherthe propensity of you
experiencing becomes.
And there's something thathappens in the magical web of
interconnectedness that I can'tgive you a physical explanation
for, scientific explanation for,but it increases the likelihood

(22:28):
of there being synchronicitiesand and like really wild.
You know things happening andthat I love, that's something
and I'm like, oh, wow, I don'tknow how that works, but it
definitely works that way.
So the more that we cultivate,these come like the compound of
the positive feelings and we'rereally in appreciation and in

(22:48):
relationship to everything.
Then that web I don't know itjust gets activated or something
, and then and something happensthat's so like wow, and those
moments of like wild wonder thathappened rarely normally, just
kind of increase and yeah,that's really cool.

(23:12):
I mean, that's something I'mlike.
Why, like wouldn't we all wantto be curious about that?
Be cool if we could just like Idon't know, gather, gather more
wonder and more magic in ourlives.
And yeah, anyway, that's myquestion.
I'm like, why would we not dothat?
I don't understand.

Ellie Goode (23:34):
And so I guess, yeah, to follow on from that,
say, someone who's listening whomight be skeptical or be
struggling, say, with anxiety ordepression even, or just like
what's the point?
Like they're really strugglingto see the wonder how, like how
could they, I guess, step out ofthat for a minute?
Or, yeah, do you work withpeople who sort of because I

(23:55):
guess a lot of people strugglewith that these days yeah, yeah,
and I think a lot of it for me.

Nele Vandersmissen (24:01):
I mean, I also have experienced that in
times of my life and for methere's really something about
learning to be present and beingable to turn towards things.
I always say it's looking atwhat are the ways that you're

(24:21):
not turning towards the thingyou should be turning towards,
like what's the conversationyou're not willing to have?
And what helps is being able toturn towards things that are
beautiful, like, strangelyenough, what I found in moments
in my life where I'veexperienced anxiety or

(24:41):
depression or just things notbeing in flow, that those are
the moments where I'm actuallynot helping myself so much.
You know, they're the momentswhere I it's almost like I don't
want to see the wonder, like itbecomes harder.
I didn't know how youexperienced that when I'm a bit
stuck in a rut and it doesn'thelp.

(25:03):
It doesn't happen so often now,but if I were to be stuck in a
rut a little bit, then those arethe days where it's harder to
do my practices or my routinesthat will get me out of it,
whereas those are the days thatI would need them the most and
there is that like secret agentthing happening, I think, where
there's a part of you that justlikes to keep you there, you

(25:26):
know, and it's actually learningto work To turn towards that
and be like hey, can we just dothis differently?
Like what's really happeninghere?
Like what am I really afraid of?
What's the feeling that I'mactually trying to avoid?
Because what I find is the thingyou're avoiding is never as bad
as you think you're going to be.

(25:46):
It's going to be, and typicallyit is actually like fully
feeling something, because Ithink when you get it's like
depression or anxiety is morelike a lack of feeling than it
is a feeling.
You know, it's kind of like anavoiding of a feeling, almost

(26:07):
like you're you're trying toturn away from something, like
often you'll also be scrollingthrough your phone or have
addictive behaviors to solve itand all of those things.
Are you turning away from thething that wants your attention?
So, like, how can you learn tobe with a feeling just as
cultivating wonder?

(26:28):
Is you learning to be with thefeeling of, of joy, of all of
the things?
And cultivating that?
And this would be the same, butI guess it would be turning
towards the thing that'suncomfortable.
My friend calls that puttingthe disco back into discomfort.

Ellie Goode (26:53):
That's great.

Nele Vandersmissen (26:55):
Because there is beauty in that too.
It's just, you know, often,often melancholy or nostalgia,
or, but there's a romance inthat too.
Like the whole human experienceis wonderful really.
And what I always say is whenyou can learn or when you have
the capacity to cultivatepositive feelings in your body

(27:15):
and wonders great, because ithelps you really work on holding
more than one good feeling atthe same time.
So you could be curious andjoyful and excited and you know,
and once you have that as afoundation and you can cultivate
that, then you can build on topof it and then you kind of also

(27:36):
be like okay, maybe today Ifeel sad or maybe I'm worried
about something, but I can atthe same time still appreciate
the beauty of life, you know.
So I mean, I had a bit of aweird day yesterday where I was
like, oh, I'm feeling a littlebit off center and I was still
able to like go for a walk andbe like, wow, it is the most

(27:59):
amazing wintery day and I couldsee the sun through the fern and
like I could still appreciate.
And then I felt a ton betterwhen I came home.
So it was like I know how to dothe thing where I can hold more
than one thing at the same time, like I can be worried a little
bit about something and thereis no nothing wrong with that,
it's just a human experience andI can also still be blown away

(28:24):
by the beauty of the world andso then it becomes a kind of a
good foundation to have, becauseit kind of balances it out a
little bit.
It doesn't mean that you'rebypassing the thing that really
wants your attention, but itmeans that you can kind of give
perspective to it.
Yeah, keep it that more thanmore than one thing can exist at

(28:45):
once, you know.

Ellie Goode (28:48):
Yeah, that's cool it's something I've played with
too of like, like you can evenbring that curiosity, I guess,
into the anxiety or thedepression or the worry of like,
oh, like, where is this comingfrom?
Or in bringing that, I findsometimes then I end up just
laughing at myself because youknow, it's just like, yeah, like
I said, like it's just a humanexperience and and our minds are

(29:10):
out.
What did you call the secretagents you know inside would
tell us all these differentthings and and sometimes, like I
just I just start laughingbecause it's so ridiculous.
And so, yeah, bringing thatcuriosity and that wonder in, I
think can really really help forsure.

Nele Vandersmissen (29:31):
Yeah, I think you've.
Yeah, that's a good the like,being curious about it.
It's the turning towards thething that really helps with
anxiety, I think turning towardsthe world and being open
towards the world, but alsoturning towards the things that
are difficult.
So it's, how can you live yourlife turning more towards things
rather than away from, becauseotherwise you spend your whole

(29:54):
life turning away from thingsand then you at the end of your
life, you look back and you justlike you weren't there.
So how can you turn towardswhat grabs you and moves you and
it's different for everybody.

(30:15):
Like, but that's a fun projectis, like I call that tracking
your wonders.
Like, how do you track thethings that made you feel alive
as a child?
Like, track them and be like,oh my God, it was like I was
obsessed with Egypt, I wanted tobe an archaeologist, but like,
that's a fun thing to track, tobe like, oh, wow, you know, I
was really curious about historyand I was really curious about

(30:36):
this and about nature and Iloved painting, and these are
all the things that, like, mademe feel alive.
And how can I incorporate somemore of that into my life?
Like, what am I curious aboutstill Like what are the things
that really make me feel alive?
What are the activities thatI'm not doing but actually I
should be doing, because that'swhat really brings me joy?

(30:57):
And then, what are theconversations that I'm not
willing to have because thoseare the things that are giving
me anxiety, and that's andthat's conversations with other
people and yourself and with theworld around you.
So it could be something likethe conversation, or not willing

(31:18):
to have could be like is thisthe right job for you, really,
you know, or is this the rightrelationship for you?
Or do you live in the placethat's right for you?
Or or any choices you have madein your life that you know you
made because that you thoughtyou were expected to do that

(31:39):
thing, and and now you find outthat actually you know, you're
unwilling to have theconversation to redirect, I
guess.

Ellie Goode (31:53):
It's.
It's sort of what you mentionedabout earlier, about the being
domesticated and putting theseself imposed limits on ourselves
, you know, and then, like yousaid, if you don't, if we don't
challenge these paradigms thatwe have or ask these questions,
like you said, you're just goingto get to the end of your life
and be like what did I do?
You know, totally, yeah, Ithink it's really important.

(32:17):
I think, like and everyone hasto walk that path for themselves
of what, what resonates forthem and what, what aligns, and
asking those questions.
But it's it.
Yeah, it's not about, like,being positive all the time or
being happy all the time.
Like you said, it's learning tobring all of these things into
balance in a beautiful way,which is cool.

Nele Vandersmissen (32:37):
Yeah, I always say when people, when I
work with people, I always sayjust so you know, this is not
about being happier, this isyou're going to come out feeling
more alive, but not you know,kind of don't know what you're
going to get.
It will be better, like you'llfeel more alive and like you'll

(33:02):
be definitely like alive and inthe world.
But it's not.
I just I don't have a magicalpill for happiness.

Ellie Goode (33:13):
Yeah, you'd be very rich if you did.

Nele Vandersmissen (33:18):
I know, but wouldn't that be ever so boring?
Like no one would have a goodstory Because you can't like you
.
I mean, all the good storieshave a whole circle and you know
it's.
It's never like I won thelottery and everything was
amazing.
That would be the most boringstory.

Ellie Goode (33:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's cool.
I like you know like it is.
It's something I think theyexplored in the good place, that
TV show of you know.
They get to heaven so-calledheaven and they have everything
they want and there's nochallenge, there's no stress,
there's no struggle and they'reall bored and they all get sick

(34:04):
of it and it's I just.
I love that show because ittakes these, you know, I guess,
moral or religious or ethicalideas and puts them into
practice in a visual way andplays them out so that we can
see how they might work inreality.
And it was just such aninteresting thing of like, yeah,
the struggle or the journey isadventure is that's life, you

(34:28):
know.
And to take all of the pain andsuffering away, take away, I
think, the wonder and the joy,in a sense, because a lot of
that comes from overcoming theseparts of ourselves and learning
to love these, you know, shadowparts of ourselves.
That if we didn't have that,then would we experience wonder
in the same way?
Like, I don't know, yeah.

Nele Vandersmissen (34:50):
Yeah, I think.
Yeah, the answer would be youwouldn't, I think, because you
just don't have that spectrumavailable of all of the feelings
.
So that's why, you know, and Ifully agree, that's why I would
say, you know, you're gonna feelmore alive with the full
spectrum available, but that'sactually what makes it more

(35:10):
colorful, that's what makes lifemore colorful, because you also
, I think, when we're moved bysomeone telling a story, we're
actually moved by their moralbeauty and their overcoming of
something.
That's typically the part ofthe story that moves us.
It's like something happenedand that person, you know, had a

(35:37):
way of responding to that thatwas morally beautiful, you know,
and that's what's reallyinspiring.
And so it's not again the storyof like someone telling you a
story about them winning thelottery and just being
perpetually happy.
You would just be likecompletely unmoved by that, you
know, maybe you would have a bitof sacred envy, maybe a little

(35:58):
bit of like sacred envy, but youwouldn't be like whoa, that
person, you know, because themost beautiful stories that move
us, the ones that give uswonder, have a full spectrum in
them and they have a sense oflike people faced something and

(36:18):
they overcame it in a way that'sinspiring, in a way that's like
, wow, isn't that beautiful.
You know, even though, thatthere was usually something that
happened that wasn't planned or, you know, didn't feel so good
for the person, the protagonistin the story.

Ellie Goode (36:40):
Yeah, yeah.
And so I guess from like moreof a practical standpoint for
people listening who are like,yep, I want more wonder.
Sign me up.
What are some things that youknow they could do, safe in
their day to day, to sort ofcultivate more wonder?
I mean, we sort of touched alittle bit on the curiosity
piece and, you know, maybe goingfor a walk, but are there some

(37:01):
sort of practical ways thatpeople can you know incorporate
that?

Nele Vandersmissen (37:06):
Yeah, absolutely, I would say, of
course, the one that's reallyobvious, that's available for
everybody, even if you live inthe city, is like wonder for
nature.
And so I like I have thispractice, which I love doing
when I feel a little bit down,because it's a great uplifter
and it has a little bit of humorin it.

(37:27):
But it's a praise walk, and apraise walk is when you go, and
so the first the conditions arealways you slow down, you take a
few deep breaths and you comeinto your body so that you're
present.
So the way that you could dothat is just take a few deep
breaths in and use your breathas a bridge to bring your mind

(37:49):
into your body so you're likeyou're fully present.
You open all your senses.
You kind of like make sure thatyou smell, that you hear, that
you see, that your sense oftouch is available, and then you
kind of go explore, like youknow, indiana Jones style, you
go around in your neighborhoodand you go find something that's

(38:11):
gonna take your breath away.
It's like being a child again.
So you kind of put on that lensof I'm a newborn baby or I'm
like I'm three years old and I'mgonna explore my neighborhood
and I'm gonna find somethingthat is going to blow me away.
You know it can be anything and,like, when you set that
intention, it always happens.
And then you find the thing,whatever it is could be, you

(38:35):
know, a leaf or a flower, or arock or a tree or something that
you've never noticed before,and then you praise it, like you
know it was the most beautifulthing you'd ever seen.
And I like doing it out loud,or sometimes get caught, and I
don't care.
I'm like I'm just here praisingthis rock.

(38:57):
You can think, you can feelhowever you want about that.
Yeah, but there's justsomething like, you know, almost
like an ode to the thing, whereyou're like I can't believe it.
Like, how is this color ofgreen even legal?
Yeah, who gave you permission?
You know, I like to go a bitqueer eye on it.

(39:20):
That's cool, like.
And then, because you're havingthis real focus or intention to
see the beauty, it moves you.
And there's this relationalthing that happens where you're
like wow, life, and then it's agreat perspective Giver.
You're just back into wow,everything is inexplainably well

(39:42):
organized and magical, you know, and it's just there.
So that's for me, that is agreat way to just practice your
capability to perceive the magicthat's already there.
It's like you just have to beintentional about it because it
is everywhere, just as you coulddo that in your house and just

(40:03):
have a sense of curiosity abouteverything.
Like I said about the cup, it'slike who made this thing?
Where does it come from?
What's the story?
Like if I buy a pineapple rightnow in the supermarket, where
did it come from?
Who worked on that farm?
Like what's everything?
Has this like chain of wonderto it that's available?

(40:24):
So it could be curiosity, itcould be nature, it could be the
other way to experience.
It is, like I said, moralbeauty.
So asking good questions, likein your relationships with
people.
It's kind of the same as whatwe talked about earlier, where
we have this belief that life ismeaningful when we achieve

(40:48):
certain things.
Like we have these milestonesthat we think will make us happy
.
And we do the same with people.
So often when we haveconversations in social settings
, we focus on these labels andachievements and the weather.
So we have these conversationsthat just aren't very wonderful.
We're like so mortgages, andwhat are you?

(41:12):
Yeah, our neighborhood, we'rethinking of this and the
mortgage rate, and then we wantto buy this other house.
And what school do your kids goto?
And what did you study andwhat's your job title?
And like there's no, like noneof those things move you.
You know they're not wonderful.
So asking good questions inconversation is like that's

(41:39):
something that sparks wonder.
So I always like asking peoplewhen I meet them, like this is a
great opening question, so it'sjust a fun tip for your next
cocktail party.
But when you meet someone andthey tell you what their name is
, I always ask them oh, what'sthe story of your name?
And then you know, even if theydon't know, then there's a

(42:01):
story there.
Then at least you can see thembe like oh, my God, I need to
find out.
And it always sparks aconversation and you know that's
a really good way, because thenyou're curious about the person
and it's always a conversationthat goes somewhere that's more
personal.
Or I like to say like oh, I'vebeen thinking of going on a

(42:25):
holiday.
Where's the last place that youwent to?
That was like really amazing.
Like tell me a story.
Do you have a memory of beingthere?
That was special, somethinglike that.
So you get more of the personalquality of the person, rather
than the secret agents showingup and running the show.

Ellie Goode (42:47):
Yeah, yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense, and
so I guess, to flow on from that, what's the story behind your
name, if that's okay to ask.

Nele Vandersmissen (42:58):
Yeah, good question.
So my name's Neela Wander,smitha is the full name.
Actually, I have.
My full name is Neela MarcellaIrène Wander.

Ellie Goode (43:09):
Smitha.

Nele Vandersmissen (43:10):
Wow, that's so cool.

Ellie Goode (43:11):
I love it.

Nele Vandersmissen (43:12):
It's so long .
Every time I have to call afinancial institution it's like
the worst.

Ellie Goode (43:20):
Filling out forms.

Nele Vandersmissen (43:21):
Yeah, yes, and I have many stories of my
name.
But my first name, neela, is aFlemish name.
So I was born in Belgium and mydad says that he always liked
that name and it's a traditional, very traditional Flemish name.

(43:42):
There's not that many, I think,in a for a hot minute in like
1979 and 1980, it was reallypopular, yeah, and so there's a
few people that are the same ageas me that are called Nea.
But then it kind of lost itspopularity.
But Neela is the wife of DaleEilish-Speakle and he is like a

(44:10):
mythological figure.
I don't know if he was reallyreal.
I think he was just a figure ina story and a legend and he was
a traveling comic but alsosomeone who would oppose the
system.
So he was a bit like a comicact, like in our modern society,

(44:33):
like in our modern world hewould be a comic slash activist,
I guess.
So he would travel around withhis wife, neela, and they kind
of tell pranks about the peoplein power and kind of wake up the
people of the wake up thepeople to what was really

(44:55):
happening through comedy.
So that's kind of cool.
I feel like it's a very.
What I'm really curious about myname at the moment is like how
does my name make me who I amand how is it part of my story?
And that's something that isalso kind of wonder.
Invoking, you know, is to becurious about things and to be

(45:19):
curious about your own story.
So that's another fun one forpeople listening.
It's like how can you track allthese numinous pearls of your
life and the things that gaveyou meaning so that you can
create more of it?
And one of them is the story ofyour name.
Like it starts there.
Like how does that become a redthread in your whole story?

(45:39):
Like what is it?
So if I think about it, I'mlike, wow, I have been an
activist and I love travelingand I'm kind of always trying to
get people to wake up to thingsyou know.
So there's like something therein the story what's your story
of your name?
That's a good question.

Ellie Goode (46:02):
I probably need to do a little bit of research.
My full name is Eloise, but Iwas called Eloise when I was in
trouble and through primaryschool, so it does not have a
good rap.
So, as soon as I could, I wasalways Ellie and Eloise.
And then, yeah, once I hit highschool, I just dropped the

(46:25):
Eloise completely and was justhave been Ellie ever since.
And even my parents neverreally called me except, yeah,
like in rare circumstances whenI was in trouble.
But my mom and dad both agreedon my name.
So I don't have a middle name,like most people do, they can

(46:46):
never believe it when they'relike you don't have a middle
name.
So, yeah, I don't know, and Ithink it's a French name, but I
don't know, like, the origins ofEloise.
Yeah, that's kind of it in anutshell, really, yeah, cool,
thanks for sharing.
Yeah, thank you, let's see.
Are you curious about it?
Now?
I am.

(47:06):
I'm like, yeah, I've got to goand research it now and, like, I
loved what you said about likedrawing meaning and sort of
connecting some dots of yourlife especially, you know,
something I've been playing witha lot lately is, instead of,
like you said, waiting for thesethings to come, waiting for
wonder or joy to come in, likehow can we create that?

(47:27):
How can we cultivate that?
And I loved yet, like what yousaid about the name and how you
can see yourself in differentparts of it.
I think that's.
That's really cool.
Like I'm really curious,there's that word To know more.

Nele Vandersmissen (47:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then it becomes thisconstellation, like I always I
call it a masterpiece.
I I would like to come up witha better name for it.
If you have any suggestions,let me know.
But I feel like that's what itbecomes yeah, yeah,
constellation.
It's like you're Piecingtogether the meaningful moments

(48:01):
and they do mean something, andthat's what's Like.
Then your life becomes this likethat's the magical sort of web
of interconnected nest thathappens, where you're like wow,
that makes no sense.
It's so cool, you know, andbecause there is kind of mystery
in everything, but we, we don'treally, we don't really

(48:23):
appreciate that so much anymore,like in our modern society.
That's, mystery is notsomething that becomes a, a
meaning giver or an informationgiver, and I think it's so
important, like it's, thatthat's exactly the thing that
you want to kind of pick up allthe rocks and find the meaning

(48:44):
and find it.
You know, the crawling thingsunderneath, and that that
mystery becomes the connectivetissue of everything.
And then it's so interestingbecause it's like, oh, what's
the story of my name?
Like, what's the thing I wantedto be when I grew up?
How does that relate to?
Because I wanted to be anarchaeologist and I was obsessed
with the, you know, pyramidsand Egypt and all of that stuff.

(49:08):
And now I'm like, oh, wow,that's interesting because I
actually like what I do, or partof what I do, is helping people
, you know, dig up their stories, like it's.
I help people connect the dotsand like See how they can carry
that forward and what the largerstory is going to be.
So I am doing that, but in not,you know, I'm not somewhere in

(49:31):
Egypt like Digging up or likesifting through.
It's just a different, adifferent way.
But it's interesting to look atit that way, to be like, oh,
what is the thing that you knowmakes me feel alive?
How can I connect the dots?
I?

(49:51):
I recently started Doing artagain, which I loved, always
loved being like do.
I was always doing some sort ofcraft or painting, and then the
last few years I kind of feltlike I didn't have time.
You know, I just got kind ofcaught up in working and being

(50:11):
busy like, and so it felt likethat was kind of a waste of my
time or I didn't really alsofeel the call to do it.
And so lately I've starteddoing 30 minutes a day of art
and I just kind of like lying onthe table, and Sometimes I have
to force it's like, okay, Ihave to do it today to sit down.
But every time I do it it'slike two hours later.

(50:34):
You know, it's never 30 minutes, because I love it and it
doesn't have to be perfect.
You know, it's just doodling orpainting, whatever.
I feel like writing a poem, butI'm just noticing that like I'm
picking up the thread of thatagain, like that was a part of
me when I was younger, that mademe who I was, like, made me

(50:56):
feel alive.
And now it's become this habit,and now I'm like I can't wait
till I find my 30 minutes todayand I'm just going to do it.
And now I have all these ideasof art that I want to make.
You know, it's become thisthing which I had when I was a
kid too.
I was like I want to make this,but big, and I want to do, do,
do, do.

(51:18):
And now you know like, wow, Iwant to make treasure map of all
my stories, and how am I goingto do it?
And I want some gold leaf, andI want.
You know, I'm like, wow, howdid that happen?
Where did that come from?
Yeah, but it's.
That's kind of that trackingpiece of how do you track the
things that make you feel reallyalive If you want to create

(51:40):
more magic.
You're kind of weaving that webof you know the meaning, the
story, all of the things, all ofthese new and pearls of
experience, and then it becomesa larger story and you can
continue to thread.
So it's like finding the magicand the wonder in that.

(52:00):
Just a fun experiment.

Ellie Goode (52:02):
Yeah, following the thread and seeing where it
leads, it's really cool.
And I think Ashay M M M Jmentions it in her book, but you
know, like, like she calls itthe anarchy.
So she's like, if you'reprocrastinating about something
and there's anarchy, like, shekind of thinks of that as like
like listen to that.
Like sometimes, like maybe notevery time, I don't know

(52:24):
sometimes we do just have topush through the resistance, but
she's kind of like, you know,rather than pushing through the
procrastination, it's like maybethat's a sign you're not doing
what you're meant to be doing.
You know, is there somethingthat excites you instead, or
that you're passionate about,that you know, that you're
curious about, or that you knowand and really kind of seeing

(52:45):
that procrastination is kind ofthe anarchy causing like some
sort of you know directionchange, which sort of goes back
to what you mentioned earlierabout like asking the hard
questions of do I really want tobe in this job or do I really
want to be with this person?
And and yeah, like kind ofseeing like the anarchy as being
this kind of cool, kind ofsignpost of maybe a direction

(53:09):
change.
So I thought that that's reallycool, yeah.

Nele Vandersmissen (53:12):
Yeah, exactly that and that, you know,
sometimes happens.
And just like you can createmore magic in your life, I think
we sometimes alsounintentionally create more
chaos because we need aredirection.
So it's exactly the same kindof energy of you know, sometimes
when you don't turn towards thething that you're meant to turn
towards, then it, you knowsomething happens and the chaos

(53:36):
comes in.
You know it's.
It's like sometimes you justneed a redirection.
If you're not listening to thethread of the story where it you
know the way the river shouldbe flowing, then sometimes a man
with a hammer comes and thensomething happens outside of
your control and you just havethis like violent redirection.

(54:00):
You know, and that could be.
You know something that happens.
It's always something you didn'tplan, but I do believe that if
you listen closely to the waythe river is flowing and you
turn towards the things andyou're in, you inquire about,
like, why is thisprocrastination here?
Why you can redirect the riverand then the man with a hammer

(54:24):
doesn't have to come so often.
So that is the other thing it'slike, if you can cultivate that
sense of curiosity, aliveness,wonder and be in conversation
and have all the realconversations that you're meant
to be having.
Then you not only create moremagic in your life, but you also
lower the need for the you knowthe thunder and lightning to

(54:48):
come in and redirect you,because there's just you're
already doing it, you don't needthe external force.
So then it becomes more selfled.

Ellie Goode (54:59):
That's cool and I was going to read out a snippet
I think it's from your website.
But just because I thought itwas really cool about you know,
I think people think of likemagic and wonder is being these
kind of out there sort ofabstract things and like just to
sort of talk about, I guess, alittle bit of the science behind
it, of was was really coolbecause I was like, oh wow, like

(55:21):
this is really interesting Ifthat's cool, so yeah.
So, as I think it says, when weexperience wonder, our bodies
release dopamine and stimulatethe release of other hormones
and neurotransmitters, such asoxytocin and endorphins.
These are associated withfeelings of bonding, connection
and happiness.
Together, these hormonalresponses help to create a

(55:44):
powerful and positive emotionalexperience that can have a
lasting impact on our physicaland mental health.
So I just thought that wasreally cool and I actually came
across a few studies that said,yes, basically the same thing of
just this sense of basicallyfeeling really small, which is
probably, you know, in thenature concept of or in wonder

(56:07):
of looking at a mountain orlooking at a huge lake or
something, or looking at spaceand the stars like this concept
or this experience of feeling sosmall.
It actually diminishes thesense of self we have or our
mind, and so we're not whenwe're in that state of wonder
and all like, we're not in ourmind, which is which I was just

(56:27):
like that's so cool that they'vedone studies about this and
like what a cool experience tocreate more of in our lives.

Nele Vandersmissen (56:34):
Yeah, I know , you know what I am, and there
is a professor at Berkeley whojust studies awe and wonder, by
the way, and like he's amazinghere.
Yeah, it was so lucky I startedmy company called wonder and
then, like two months later hewas like, by the way, I'm a
professor at Berkeley that wrotea whole book about this and
it's coming out now.

(56:54):
I was like, convenient, thanksfor that, good timing.
But there was a book he wrotewhich is called awe,
conveniently, and his name isDacher Keltner and I really
recommend kind of listening.
He's done a few podcastsrecently because he's been
promoting the book and so hetalks about this a lot.

(57:16):
And one of the things that hesaid so I don't want to claim
this as my own, but it reallyhad had home for me was that I'm
really confused as to why wehave all these mindfulness
practices we're promoting, wherewe're trying to help people get
to a neutral state, you know,like we're trying to get them to
a place where they don't feelterrible, like why are we doing

(57:36):
that?
What the hell is that about?
If you have all of this magicand wonder available in the
world, we should be teachingyoung kids to cultivate wonder,
you know we should be, and Icouldn't agree more.
I'm like I know there'spractices out there like I love
breathwork, for example, thatreally works for me, and there's

(57:59):
other practices out there likeI feel great when I do yoga, etc
.
But I do think a lot of ourmindfulness practices are
intended to get you to neutral.
But you know what is that?
We could just be so joyful, butI also feel like it doesn't
serve the world.

(58:20):
It's like what if we all juststarted cultivating wonder and
have this incredible capacity tobe, you know, you know, masters
of our own lives?
Like our whole society wouldfall apart because you know it
just doesn't function.
Our whole society is based oneverybody being consumers and

(58:42):
believing that they need allthese things in order to be
happy.
And I think, if we're honest,we all know that's a lie.
You know because, like we said,you don't get to the end of
your life and be like, oh, the500 Facebook likes.
Or you know, it really made mehappy, my car.
You know like, yeah, it's justnot.
Those are just not the momentsyou remember when you, you know,

(59:03):
when you get to that place.
But so we should be teachingchildren how to cultivate wonder
, so that they always have thecapacity to like, have that
experience that you talk about,where you're just small.
Because I also think that thereis a lot of anxiety, like people

(59:24):
are experiencing a lot ofanxiety, there's a lot of stress
, there's a lot like we justmental health is not in a great
way, historically, I think, andand people get really self and,
like I, self involve, selfobsessed.
So there's this like spiral ofself that's happening, whereas

(59:45):
wonder takes you out of the selfand that's what's so healing
about it.
It's like, wow, but look atthis whole world out there, you
know, and we're often just stuckin this, like little in our
phone and ourselves in our ownminds, and it becomes this cycle
of like, you know, obsessive,an obsessive cycle, and like I

(01:00:08):
know what that feels.
Like I have it too sometimes,where I'm like, oh my God,
sometimes I organize an eventand then for a day no one signs
up for it or something, and thenI start obsess and it becomes
this cycle of like, oh my God,what if people think it's awful?
What if I'm actually nottalented at all?
What if I'm really bad at this?

(01:00:29):
Oh my God, and then if I don'ttake myself out of that spiral
and have a conversation.
Then it can go, that loop canjust continue on.
And I want to get to a mutualstate.
I want to be like oh yeah,listen, you were allowed to, you
were allowed to do that, but weknow we do that and it's not

(01:00:51):
true.
So let's just go out and go fora wander and appreciate the
beauty of the world or watch thesunset or have a hot cacao or
go for a swim or do likeanything that makes me feel good
in the life Like I love goingto sauna, but just something
like that and then feel like, ohyeah, I caught myself in that

(01:01:12):
trap and I didn't.
I took myself out of it andlike open the perspective up, so
knowing like I think for peopleit's really helpful to know
what is your toolkit in thatscenario like what's your wonder
toolkit that you have?
That are the things that kindof can take you out of that loop
that you can get stuck in.
Because it isn't, it isn't true, that's just a conversation

(01:01:36):
you're having internally, that's, you know, untrue.

Ellie Goode (01:01:42):
Yeah, yeah.
And so I guess, like, what arethe things that help you shift
out of that mindset when you doget caught up?
Is it to go and like, havethese experiences of wonder?
Is it to go and have a walk?
Is it to sort of refocus yourattention elsewhere?
What do you find?
Yeah, great.

Nele Vandersmissen (01:01:59):
I have a whole toolkit of things.
The first one would be is tonot to turn, not to turn away
from it, so like, if I startfeeling this way that I don't
start scrolling on my phone orthat I'm aware of what the
behaviors are of turning awayfrom and trying not to do that,

(01:02:20):
so really turning towards thesecret agent and be like, hey,
what's really up here, you know.
So I have that conversation andI know that I actually know the
inner council, that I call itinner council.
But I do know the parts of methat can show up when I'm, for
example, self doubting and I canbe like, okay, I see you, I

(01:02:43):
know that you're here, and likewhat's really, what's really
alive for you, like what's thething you're afraid of?
And kind of do whateverpractice I need to.
I love dancing, so I likespending time just a song, one
song or two songs, just feelingall the feelings that are alive
and like shaking it out orsometimes even screaming,

(01:03:06):
whatever.
You know, emotional release Ineed to have works really well.
So that type of embodimentpractice is really helpful for
me To take me out of my mindloop and just be like, okay,
this part of me, this secretagent part of me wants to
express something.
She's afraid or she's angry,and I'm just going to give her

(01:03:28):
permission to do it.
So that's one of the things.
And then one of the otherthings would be to make sure I
nourish myself so, like that Idon't punish myself, because I
think that was an old behavior Ihad of like, well, now you
can't have nice food orsomething, no, I'm just going to
make sure that I have a bath orI eat nice food or I get to do

(01:03:52):
something I like.
For me, nature is my mainwonder gateway and that's why I
live in the Blue Mountains aswell, so I will automatically.
My first response if I startlooping is to go outside, and
thankfully I have theflexibility to do that.
But like I had a day like thatyesterday and I just at 11am or

(01:04:14):
so, I was like, okay, bye, Ineed to take myself out of this.
And then I just was outside fortwo hours and I walked and it
completely took me out.
Like it was fresh air, it wasthe sun through the ferns, it
was the mountains, it was thewaterfall and it was like, okay,
just back to.
Yeah, and I and it's okay tonot bypassing I'm still.

(01:04:39):
I can feel the sense of selfdoubt about something and also
be captivated at the same timeby the beauty of the world.
And then it's just not so bigthat feeling.
It doesn't become such a, youknow, self fulfilling loop then,
because I also know by now thatit's probably not realistic.

(01:05:03):
So, like, the thing I wasworried about yesterday is not
true today, you know.
So, yeah, but I like creatingbeautiful moments.
That, for me, is the magic.
So I like to be thinking of oh,I'm the painter of this

(01:05:26):
masterpiece, what can I add toit today?
Like, what's the thing?
And so I like doing things.
Like when I eat, I like for thefood to look beautiful.
That's something that gives mejoy, you know.
So I like to decorate things.
I love to have a candle on thetable when I eat.
Or I like to create littlemoments like that, or like when
I do my 30 minutes of art alight, a candle, I'll have

(01:05:48):
something nice to eat like.
It's like I ritualize things sothat they have meaning for me,
and that is my way of creatingthat a lot.
So I like to add ritual tothings and create wonder that
way.
But but it's really differentfor everybody and, like I said,
the way that you can kind ofcreate your toolbox is by

(01:06:10):
tracking the wonders or beinglike what are the moments that I
have, the memories I have thatlit me up, or what are the times
where I, you know, somethingtook my breath away, like what
are, what are those things andhow can I do more of them and
how can I kind of ritualize themin my life, and that then
becomes your toolkit.
I think, yeah, it's cool, it'soh, sorry, you go, yeah.

(01:06:33):
And the last thing I would wantto say is I think there's
people there's so muchinformation out there and so
many people writing books aboutthis is what will fix your life.
And I think I just would wantto say, like, it's different for
everybody and you have toremember that you're a unique
person.
No one's like you, so you'dalways you'd have your own

(01:06:54):
toolkit.
It's never the same as anyoneelse's, and that's the mystery
and the beauty of that too, oflike, how can you find the
things that really light you up?
Let that become your quest.
You know your quest is to findyour own toolkit and make your
own toolkit and not be, and Iguess that's helpful to know
because, like, for example, I'mnot much of a meditator.

(01:07:16):
It's just never worked for me.
I can appreciate breathwork ortake a few deep breaths and I
know that's good for me, but youwill never find me sitting
somewhere for 45 minutes tryingto be still because I just have
no joy in that.
It doesn't actually do anythingfor me.
So that's just not in mytoolkit and that's okay.

(01:07:39):
So I would just invite peoplenot to force things, not to be
like oh, just because thisperson decided that waking up at
5am every morning was a goodidea for them, I should feel bad
because it isn't for me.
It's like, no, you, you have tomake your own sort of wonder
map.
Like you're making your owntoolkit and and it looks

(01:08:02):
different for everybody and Ialways say it's a treasure map
you're making a treasure map ofyour, of your wonders, and that
becomes your toolkit and thenyou have access to it at all
times.
It doesn't become this like todo list of things.
It's like, no, you'll want todo all these things because you
like them and they're going tomake you happier and healthier.
Like isn't that kind of I meanjoy.

(01:08:26):
Yeah, we should all just dothings we love.
That's it.
Yeah, no, that's it's cool.

Ellie Goode (01:08:34):
It's like it's almost just comes back to like
following your impulse,following, like you said, like
what, what brings you joy?
And because it can, it'sdifferent for everybody and and
it's funny because I talked tomy brother about this of
sometimes there can be like asense of guilt around feeling
joyful of like oh, but there'sso much suffering in the world,

(01:08:55):
or you know, if I'm feeling somuch joy or if I'm feeling so
good, like it's I'm doingsomething wrong, like it's too
easy, and so it's almost likethat.
I guess that's the mindobviously coming in to try and
control and shift back intothose old ways of being.
But it's, it's definitely being, I guess, a process for me of
learning to feel my joy andexpress my joy and not feel

(01:09:19):
guilty because of that.
Because I think that a lot ofpeople probably feel that guilt
or shame of like you know howcan I feel joyful like when
other people are suffering, andyeah, it's an interesting thing.
But I think the more joy wefeel, the better we are in
ourselves, like, the moreeveryone around us is going to

(01:09:39):
feel better, absolutely.

Nele Vandersmissen (01:09:42):
Yeah, yeah, that's it.
I also like the joy is the keyto all the information you need.
Yeah, so, like, I 100% believethat every single person has a
unique genius and a uniquetalent, and that talent and that
genius comes through in momentsthat you feel joyful, kind of

(01:10:02):
like.
The things that make you willfeel alive are in overlap with
the things that you're good atand the things that you're meant
to be doing, so they're areally quick kind of source of
information, and we all have thebirthright to experience
pleasure and to be joyful.
And the more that you arejoyful and the more that you are
in your pleasure, the better,the more impact you have on

(01:10:25):
others around you.
It's really simple, and themore that you cultivate it, the
more kind of magnetic your fieldbecomes.
That's the other like thingthat's really interesting.
And then you start kind ofcompounding all these meaningful
moments.
But I think your joy is reallythe key to the key to life, like

(01:10:46):
the key.
That's like that's where yourtreasure map should start.
The things that bring you joyand the things that make you
feel alive are the things thatyou meant to do more of, and
they're usually related to thethings that you're good at and
how can you do more of that?
Because that's what the worldneeds.
And I mean, like I said, Ibelieve everybody is here to do

(01:11:06):
something.
We're not just here toaccumulate possessions.
We're here to make a meaningfullife and that life is always in
service to something biggerthan ourselves.
And it doesn't have to be thistraditional thing of like I
started Greenpeace or I thinkpeople kind of see it in that

(01:11:26):
siloed way, but often it's justlike really being alive in the
world and impacting people thatway, or raising conscious
children that are going tocontribute in a way.
But if you're the person inyour society that is like the
light in your community, thenthat's your impact.
You just bring joy to people.
That's your gift, that's yourpurpose, that's the thing that

(01:11:49):
you came here to do.
Maybe you're the person thatreally sees people and then
people feel really seen everytime that they're with you, like
what a fun skill to develop,what a fun talent to become good
at, and how are you going to beat.
So I don't think people are bornwith a purpose in the sense of
you're meant to be a firefighter.
It isn't quite as practical asthat, but I think people do have

(01:12:13):
a certain genius or a certaintalent that they're meant to
bring out in the world, and it'salways related to what brings
them joy.
So, yeah, there's somethingreally interesting about that.
And so when we're tellingourselves that we're not allowed
to cultivate more joy andthere's so much misery in the
world or there's thingshappening, I feel like we're

(01:12:35):
kind of dampening our capacityto fully step into ourselves and
actually be of service, becauseI think it comes through joy.
And again, that's one of thoseweird limiting beliefs that
society has put upon us.
It's like, you know, that tallpoppy thing of like not too much
, not too joyful, not too like.

(01:12:56):
Yeah, it should just be morefilled with joy and pleasure all
the time.
Can you imagine how much betterlife would be if everyone was
just constantly doing what theyloved?

Ellie Goode (01:13:11):
Yeah, it'd be epic, epic, It'd be so good, yeah.
And so I guess that sort offlows into sort of what you're
doing with your business withwonder is, I guess, helping
people tap into this joy, thiswonder in themselves, connecting
to their sort of purpose.
How, I guess maybe two-fold, iswhat made you decide to go into

(01:13:35):
that as a business, and how doyou help people to connect with
themselves and unlock thosegifts in themselves?

Nele Vandersmissen (01:13:40):
Yeah, I decided to do it.
So I'd been working for fouryears at Snapchat as a council
specialist, and what that meansis we created at Snapchat.
We had circle practice in thecompany, and so I helped set
that up in this region in Asia,pac, and every team would sit

(01:14:05):
together and circle and sharestories, and it was amazing to
be able to be part of thatproject and see how much it
impacted people in theorganization and how incredibly
good the culture in thisorganization was, because people
really could see each other andshow up in a human way.
And for me, wonder is one ofthe main reasons for that.

(01:14:30):
Because we get to see someone'smoral beauty, or we get to see
a part of a person that webecome curious about, or a piece
of them that's human that wedidn't know before that moment.
And it made me think a lot aboutwhen we go on these
transformational processes inour lives and often, like we do

(01:14:50):
retreats or we go on personaldevelopment weeks or go do some
sort of transformational process, then a lot of these processes
are challenge based, so they'relike you know you have to go,
and the way that your box ofbeliefs is opened is through
challenge, so like you have tosurvive in the woods for three

(01:15:12):
days like a quest, like thing,or you know, everybody falls
apart.
They make you fall apart in someway.
You make you do like all thisphysical activity or mental
strife that makes you kind ofget to a place of my box of
beliefs is now opened becauseI've had this breakdown and I
was like, well, why do we haveto do it?

(01:15:35):
Challenge based?
What if we do it wonder based?
Because it's got the sameoutcome that your box of beliefs
is opened when you're in astate of wonder, because you're
like in relationship tosomething that you can't quite
explain, I was like what if we,you know, did that differently?
What if personal developmentwas around pleasure and joy

(01:15:57):
rather than challenge, like youknow?
I just don't think we need to doyes, so much better.
So that was that's how that wasborn.
And then I took the experienceI had of doing lots of group
work and building programs andcircle practice, and I work with
organizations now.
So I do organizational workwhere I help organizations

(01:16:20):
create good culture through likecircle practice, active
listening, wonder practices,creative activities, that sort
of stuff, and it's really notthat hard.
That's what's so cool.
It's like you can take a teamand just have them together for
an afternoon or a day and itcompletely change them just

(01:16:41):
because they get to be presentwith each other and really
witness each other's beauty andhonor each other and make art
together and be in theirimagination and cultivate wonder
, and so that's a real joy.
I've been really loving thataspect of having the creativity
to work with groups of people,so I do that.

(01:17:01):
And then for individuals, Ialso help people create spaces
like this.
So you can either come and do aprogram.
So we have a few programs.
We have one program that'scalled wonder and it's about
cultivating wonder and natureand so learning how to be in

(01:17:22):
relationship to the naturalworld, and that's just an online
program that you can take thatgives you weekly invitations to
go stock.
You know that relationalquality and like it's really
magical, like that's a practicethat changed my life.
So me and a colleague made aprogram for that so you can do

(01:17:42):
that.
We have online circles thatpeople can join and we do online
and in person circle trainingso people can also learn how to
be a circle facilitator or theycan come and just experience
wonder through moral beauty bysitting in circle and telling
stories.
So those are a few things thatwe do.

(01:18:05):
We have a fun.
I did a really fun project inthe beginning of the year called
21 Days of Wonder, and it was21 invitations for people to
stock wonder.
So I made a video every day thefirst 21 days of the year and
it was really popular.
I was like, wow, I think I putit out there as kind of like

(01:18:27):
let's see what happens.
And then I had 500 people signup for it.
That's awesome.
And I didn't even like it wasnot, I didn't try, and I was
like, oh, there's something here, like people are curious about
how to you know, welcome morewonder in their life.
So we're going to do somethingsimilar in August, but it's

(01:18:48):
going to be seven days because21 was a little intense.
Yeah, it's like, wow, I don'thave a life.
I have to make these videosevery day.
So I'm going to do another onein August called seven days of
wonder, and so if you want tosign up, that will be free.
So people can sign up for thatand just get a daily invitation

(01:19:10):
to stock wonder and all of thekind of neuroscience that comes
with that.
And I'm really passionate aboutcreating opportunities for
people to be more in thedriver's seat like that, to be
like, hey, I know my treasuremap and I'm painting it, like
I'm not waiting for things tohappen to me.

(01:19:30):
I'm here to be the painter ofthat masterpiece and I'm going
to cultivate more wonder andmore magic in my life and create
meaning through deep connectionwith the world around me and
the people around me.
So I'm super excited about that.
I'm like what if we could justlive in a society where, instead
of 2% of people living theirlives like that, it would be 95.

(01:19:54):
I mean, everything would fallapart because our system
wouldn't work.
But I still, I know I have tobuild a new system.
That's what I'm excited about.
I'm like, well, the systemisn't working.
Really, if you're lookingaround, you know it's.
We're in a precarious time inhistory where whatever we've
built isn't really working forus.

(01:20:14):
So we need something new, andthe people that are going to
build the something new are thepeople that are wonder stalkers
and treasure mappers and poetsand alchemists, and you know,
wild wonderers, in my opinion.

Ellie Goode (01:20:34):
Yeah, that's super cool, Awesome.
And so for people who want tosay find out more and sign up
and check out your work, wherecan they find out more?

Nele Vandersmissen (01:20:46):
So they can go to the website.
It's wonderglobal, it'sW-O-N-D-R, so no E dot global.
And then on the website we haveall of the offerings for teams
and individuals as well Awesome.
And you can sign up to anewsletter.
I love writing a wonder letterevery month with like different

(01:21:09):
tips in it and podcasts andalbums and all the things that
gave me wonder, so it's a funnewsletter, I hope to receive.
Sounds cool yeah that's awesome, awesome.

Ellie Goode (01:21:21):
Well, yeah, we'll wrap it up there.
Thank you so much for coming onthe podcast and sharing all
about magic and wonder.
It's been an incredible chat,yeah, yeah, thank you so much,
it's been a joy.
Thank you so much for listeningto Sex, money and Rage.
Before you go, if you haven'talready, please hit the
subscribe or follow button andmake sure notifications are

(01:21:43):
ticked and I'll see you nexttime.