Everything About KINK | with Kyle Lovett and Ashley Berry

Discover the unexpected ways pleasure and kink intertwine with human psychology as we navigate the often-misunderstood waters of BDSM, consent, and sexual liberation. Joined by the insightful Ashley and the experienced Kyle, we tackle the fallacy that kink is strictly a trauma response and instead reveal its potential for healing and empowerment. Through candid conversations, we explore the fluid dynamics of dominance and submission, the role of 'brat energy' in BDSM, and how these practices can lead to personal growth and deeper self-understanding.

As we peel away societal taboos, our guests share their transformative journeys from mere participants to passionate educators within the kink community. They illuminate the joys of helping others safely unearth their desires, pushing past conventional boundaries to a place of profound erotic expression. We also dissect the critical role of consent and the Wheel of Consent, emphasizing how these frameworks can foster a safe and fulfilling exploration of one's sexual landscape.

Join us for this thought-provoking session where we embrace our primal instincts and redefine what it means to engage in role-playing, objectification, and the pursuit of pleasure. With practical advice and shared vulnerabilities, this episode promises a welcoming space for the curious, the seasoned, and everyone in between who seeks to understand the profound impact of kink on personal transformation and sexual empowerment. Ashley and Kyle guide us through this rich tapestry, leaving us with a deeper appreciation for the nuanced world of kink and the liberation that comes with embracing our true desires.

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Episode Transcript

Kyle Lovett (00:00):
giving someone pleasure is something that
really turns me on.
So I do that for my pleasureand to be able to, like, tell
sexual partners or even clientswhere I want you to use my body
for your pleasure and that'sgoing to bring me so much
pleasure.
It's like that can be a wholerewiring of like are you sure?

(00:20):
I'm like, yeah, you can, youcan take anything you want.

Taylor Johnson (00:27):
Hello, friend, and welcome to the sex upgraded
podcast, a podcast from an allabout sex, where we'll combine
real, authentic and down toearth conversations about sex
life and relationships with somepretty wild personal stories
and practical how to episodes,as well with guest experts from
around the world, to help youhave the most amazing sex life
you can possibly have.

(00:48):
My name is Taylor and I'll beyour host on this journey, and
it's my goal with each episodeto give you practical,
actionable things you can startdoing today to improve your sex
life and your entire life,because a thriving sex life will
help you thrive in all areas ofyour life.
So let's begin today's episodeby starting with a deep breath
in through the nose, into thebelly together, exhaling with an

(01:11):
audible sigh, and let's getinto today's episode.
This conversation was actuallyinspired by a Facebook post from

(01:31):
somebody else many, many, manymonths ago where somebody said,
simply in one sentence,statement kink is a trauma
response.
And I thought, oh fuck, that Ihave to go in there and like,
comment and share my opinions.
And I ran into Ashley, who'shere with us today, and we sort

(01:52):
of like, like and appreciatedeach other's comments and
couldn't really get anywherewith the original poster.
So we started a discussion andthen eventually I thought you
know what this would be, a greatpodcast discussion.
Is kink a trauma response, isit not?
What is it?
And then turns out, recently Isee that, ashley, you have now
teamed up with Kyle, who is alsohere, to host a regular event

(02:12):
called kink tank, which is, inmy understanding, an opportunity
for people to come togetheronline and ask any questions
around kink, their kinks, theirdesires.
What is it, what is it Not, howto do it, that sort of thing,
and I thought, wow, how coolwould it be to have a
conversation with both of you.
So I want to say thank you forbeing here and welcome to the

(02:32):
show.

Ashley Berry (02:35):
Thanks Taylor.
I'm excited about thisconversation.
Thank you so much.

Taylor Johnson (02:39):
Yeah, me too, and I'm excited for you both to
introduce yourselves.
And I think let's dive into theintroductions after we jump
into this first statement realquick.
Like, what do you think aboutthis statement?
Kink is a trauma response.

Ashley Berry (02:57):
Well, I can share my initial impulse and why I
felt moved to respond, becauseI'm pretty boundreed in my
willingness to engage onFacebook comment threads,
especially for big topics thatare important.
But as somebody who is a kinkprofessional and has really dove
deep into this space and foundit to be many, many things,

(03:20):
including sometimes a traumaresponse but in my perception
that that statement in and ofitself is lacking the nuance
which would really honor thefull spectrum of what kink is,
and I can share more about thatlater.
But that that was the entrypoint for me is like oh, there's
so much more nuance here.

(03:41):
That's really interesting toexplore and I'm really, I really
take care, and part of why I dothis particular work in this
particular modality is becauseit's so amazing for unwinding
shame and sometimes commentsthat have a lack of nuance, like
that, and that people caninterpret in all these ways and

(04:02):
can maybe spark this idea oflike oh my God, is there
something wrong with me If Ilike this?
Am I broken?
Do I need to be fixed?
Is this just a trauma, even ifI'm just enjoying myself and it
doesn't seem like there's trauma, like?
So that to me feels reallyimportant to open those
conversations and dispelanything that could perpetuate a
shame cycle for people, becausethe entire for me, like the

(04:30):
kind of underpinnings of thiswork is, is liberating ourselves
to feel more radical selfacceptance and not feeling shame
for what we might like or feeldrawn towards.

Taylor Johnson (04:43):
Yeah, awesome, beautiful.
Thank you, and that wasactually, if you're listening
and not watching this on YouTubenever done an interview with
two other people at a timebefore, so I figured I should
clarify.
Thank you, ashley, you'rewelcome.
Kyle, what, what do you, what?
What reactions do you have tothe statement?
Kink is a trauma response.

Kyle Lovett (05:06):
In a way it like pulls at my heart and it's
something that I have personalexperience and I've seen a lot
of people move through utilizingkink as a tool to support
trauma healing.
And so when I hear that justlike blunt statement, yeah,
there's just as Ashley said,there's so many nuances in

(05:27):
between and there's so muchpower that, like that particular
topic and umbrella, which I'msure we'll get into, like really
what that is and what it means.
But kink as a tool is, has beenthe frame of reference for me
and my experience over the lastdecade of like being within the
kink scene and the lifestyle andthen moving into it

(05:48):
professionally.
And so I'm just like, oh, tojust have like a blanket
statement it it doesn't, itdoesn't give room for all of the
in-betweens and all of theother sides of things.
And it is true, like it hastruly been the play space and

(06:11):
the and the like, the opening inmy personal life of empowerment
, liberation, and like selfexpression while unwinding shame
, which Ashley touched into,like everything she said yes,
and like it's just been such avital part of my own like

(06:31):
healing of my own traumas and myown relationship to my body.
And so that statement is like,yeah, it just just pulls in my
heart because there's so much inthere and I just am like, oh,
there's just so much, and Iunderstand why that would be
said and I understand why thatwould be like a very good topic

(06:56):
to like dive into in a deeperlevel.
It is, I think, it's reallyimportant to talk about because
there is so much in there andthere's so much shame wrapped up
in it and there's so much fearand misunderstanding and just
like all of these other thingsaround this particular world.

Taylor Johnson (07:12):
So, yeah, yeah, heard, thank you, can I?

Ashley Berry (07:17):
add something to that.
Just in terms of you're saying,kyle's saying, I understand why
that statement would be said,and I can look at that for
multiple levels.
Like one is like there's a seedof truth in that that we can
unpack, and then there's allthese other truths simultaneous
and the way I'm perceivingreality, like we all play our

(07:41):
roles, and so, whether or not Iagree with a statement or the
energy behind it, I doappreciate those folks who are
willing to place their incharacters that catalyze
conversations that can deepenour understanding, even if it's
not the way that I would do it.

(08:01):
Like I honor that there is aplace for that and that it's
brought us to this conversationhere, which I'm excited about
having.
So totally.
Yeah.

Taylor Johnson (08:10):
Yeah, yes, Objectively.
I think it was a great commentto make for that purpose.
Yeah, I disagree with theblanket statements and I know I
don't.
I never really like blanketstatements and I always like to.
Well, I have a history ofengaging with them and I have
since realized that I shouldactually be much more
intentional with how much Iengage statements like that,

(08:31):
just because they're everywhere.
But for me, when I saw that,yeah, I just felt frustrated
immediately because to me, likewhat I made it mean, and when I
read some of her commentsunderneath and some of the other
comments that were there, Iinterpreted that as meaning oh,
therefore it's bad.
Right, Kink is a traumaresponse.
That means there is somethingwrong with you if you like

(08:53):
anything other than likemissionary sex between a man and
a woman for the sake ofprocreation.
Right, Because when I like diveinto my thoughts around what
kink is like, kink ultimately itseems like a subjective thing.
Right?
Like doggy style position couldbe kinky for somebody and it
might not be for somebody else.
Like getting tied up and chainscould be kinky for somebody and

(09:14):
it might not be for somebodyelse.
So it's this entire subjectiverealm that's anything outside of
, in my opinion, what likeoriginal, like purity culture
has said is sex, and then wesort of like demonize it or
pathologize it and say, oh well,there must be something wrong
with you if you like gettingchoked, you know.
Or there must be something wrongwith you if you like to be

(09:36):
dominated and and experiencethat, and perhaps maybe there's
some reason that you got drawnto that.
That's that you're working onhealing through that experience.
Or maybe you're just somebodyin life who's a really powerful
person leading a business andyou're always in the control
position and you just want toexperience what it's like to not
be in control, Like maybethat's it and maybe it's fun,

(09:59):
Maybe it's playful that way.
So yeah, I'll pause there andyeah, and say thanks for sharing
and I wonder if you'd both givejust a little bit of a
background.
If I remember correctly, you'reboth professional.
Is it dominatrixes or switches?
And could you explain what thatmeans?

Ashley Berry (10:21):
Yeah, we can.
We can explain our ownbackgrounds and kind of where
they converge as well.
So I, for the last five and ahalf years, have been working as
a professional dominatrix and Ipersonally identify as a switch
and it's on a spectrum and it'skind of always shifting.

(10:44):
But also, the longer I work asa pro dom, the more my my desire
for more spaces where I canexperience submission happens,
and I've been diving deeper intothat lately and I'm like I
think I'm actually a sub leaningswitch that's a pro dom that
works as a pro dom, which is afun juxtaposition of things and
what does that?

(11:05):
mean.
What does that mean?
It means I enjoy being in thedominant position, being in the
submissive position, being atop,being a bottom.
Some of them intersect withdifferent activities, like I
enjoy choking somebody else andbeing choked.
I enjoy giving heavy impactplay with like a flogger or

(11:28):
paddle or something.
I'm learning my ownrelationship with receiving that
, but I I don't tend to enjoyreceiving heavy impact play
right, but so there's a.
There's an enjoyment availablein both of those positions and
specifically in the switchposition where it starts to

(11:48):
become that dance.
And in my personalrelationships I explore this
more with other people who areswitchy where it's like there's
such a sweet spot Once there's aclearly established role of
like I'm in the dominant roleand I'm in the submissive role
when we could switch and bedoing that in real time.
It becomes this real dance ofwho's leading and following
anybody who has a dancebackground as well, or I do a

(12:11):
lot of contact improvisation,like there's this magic space
that opens where you're kind ofsynced and able to move between
these two seeming poles, andthat's one of my favorite spaces
.
So I could geek out on that,but I won't go too far there.
In the intro I'll say that as aprofessional dominatrix.

(12:31):
How I would define that is thatI create and hold containers
for people to explore.
Submission is commonly part ofthat, but sometimes people just
have a specific fetish orinterest activity that they want
to explore.
But my role in a professionalsense is to make sure that we're

(12:52):
having really clearcommunication, really clear
negotiations, where we'reoutlining what do you want to do
, how do you want to feel, whatare your boundaries and limits,
and even that first thresholdI've found is incredibly
connecting and can be reallyhealing and liberating for
people just to have thoseconversations.

(13:13):
And then I offer hands onexperiential guided sessions
where people, to whatever degreethey want, can just hand over
the reins for a minute and feelheld and guided.
And then the content of whatthat might include in terms of

(13:35):
certain activities is runs thefull gamut.
Awesome, yeah.
And then the last piece.
I'll say which will kind of justcontextualize my relationship
with Kyle is that I've also beenreally enjoying doing King
education work, runningworkshops, mentoring other
people who are interested ingetting into this work, coaching

(13:59):
people who want to discovertheir relationship to arrows or
power or the dynamics that arehappening in their personal
relationships and maybe don'twant to do it professionally but
are finding a lot of juice inwhat they can discover about
themselves and their selfdevelopment through this.
And then Kyle and I have beenpartnering and doing that

(14:21):
together to be able to offermore of that and more spaces for
people who might not be wantingor even ready for a full on
BDSM session, but are like Iwant to have these conversations
and I want to know more aboutwhat's here, because there's
something that is pulling mewhich I know Kyle, you have some
beautiful things to share aboutfeeling that pulse and being

(14:43):
like I don't know why, but Ineed to follow this impulse.

Taylor Johnson (14:48):
Yeah, awesome, thank you.
Ashley.

Kyle Lovett (14:54):
Yeah.

Taylor Johnson (14:54):
Kyle.

Kyle Lovett (14:56):
Hi, I'm Kyle.
Love it and yeah, I mean just Togo off of that like.
Yeah, I ended up in this workand in this conversation right
now because of a pulse and anintuitive hit that I needed to
like follow this thing and gointo a dungeon with a friend and

(15:17):
then I needed to keep going andthen I needed to like you know,
like I was like I want toexplore and play and watch and
whoa, it just like overtook mywhole like I don't know what
this is, but something ischanging inside of me and I am
like extremely fascinated andturned on and excited and

(15:38):
curious.
And it was just like all thesethings created, like creativity.
It was like all this stuffstarted to happen.
And yeah, it's been almost adecade of being kind of immersed
in that world and I definitelywent through the lifestyle
section of the kink BDSM world.
There's kind of like theprofessional and the lifestyle

(15:59):
and they definitely can intermix, but there's also like a lot of
compartmentalization around itas well and so for many years it
was just a lifestyle piece forme of exploration and trying on
all of the different roles andlearning all of the different
skills and the tools and thelike like, just like building
this collection.
It was just like part of who Iwas and what started to happen

(16:21):
as I started to like mentorpeople into the world and bring
them into it and like supportpeople and educate people, and
like I ended up being likesupporting people and practicing
dominating for the first timeor practicing submitting for the
first time, and it just becamethis like playful thing.
And then I was like this islike my dharma, like I need to

(16:42):
be doing this.
I love this so much and itbrings me incredible joy in all
directions to just like createspaces for people to explore
sides of themselves that theymay have never told anyone that
they're interested in, orthey've been in full shame
around, or they haven't evenlike accepted about themselves
and they didn't even know it waspossible until they see it or

(17:05):
they hear that that's acceptableor adorable or exciting to me,
right, or to like other people.
So it just became this like ohmy gosh, I have to do this, I
love this.
And Ashley came into my fieldand like we were actually in
ceremony and like we're verylike spiritual based and very

(17:26):
connected in with the like NewAge spiritual community and like
Tantra and like all of theseother realms and so to meet
someone that was in that world,in the other worlds that I was
in, was like like my brain waslike oh my God, who is this
person?

(17:47):
I think I introduced myself andI was.
She was like I don't know anintegration.
You were like I'm a dominatrixand I was like Bing and came up
to her and I was like Hi, I'mKyle and I'm kinky.
And she literally put my phonenumber in her phone as like
kinky Kyle and I was like thatwas the weirdest intro ever.

Ashley Berry (18:07):
I loved it.

Kyle Lovett (18:08):
And we've been on a road ever since.
We've been on this funnyjourney of just like realizing
that like we have so muchexperience in certain realms
that like the other doesn't, andit like is this like gorgeous
kind of meeting in the middle oflike bringing bringing all that
we have together to this likewholeness, and kind of merging

(18:28):
those worlds and just like beingable to, yeah, being able to be
the fullest expression ofourselves together and in our
separate work?
It's like we've just yeah, it'sjust like up leveled us
exponentially in what we canoffer and and how we can do it
by kind of like doing this likemerge thing and and starting

(18:52):
holistic kink.
And so I I I call myself aprofessional switch and holistic
kink practitioner and I like tobe on both sides and I like to
support people being either inthe dominant position or the
submissive submissive positionor wrangling the brat inside of
me, because the brat is thenatural state of me.

(19:15):
So I am amazing.

Ashley Berry (19:18):
I love your brat so much yeah.

Taylor Johnson (19:21):
What does that mean?
So, for somebody who doesn'tknow what that means, can you
like tell it?
Or show.

Kyle Lovett (19:30):
Should we show you love wrangling her.

Ashley Berry (19:32):
Oh my gosh, oh my gosh.
Well, I was just.
I was just thinking.
We did a scene.
The other day we were with aclient and one of the things
that we also love doing is demosjust for people to witness,
because there's so much that canbe experienced and learned and
like sparked off as like, oh mygod, I never thought about that.

(19:52):
And we did an impact play sceneand I went through multiple
tools, increasing intensity,just for you know, safety of the
body and the skin.
You have to warm the body up.
But when I got to I think itwas the dragon's tongue, which
is a form of a whip.
It's kind of like a soft tailedwhip that gives a more acute

(20:12):
stingy sensation.
I reached this threshold andKyle reached this threshold with
the amount of intensity ofsensation that she was
experiencing that I watched thebrat get activated.
I mean, I don't remember whatyou said, but basically there's

(20:33):
a form of resistance that comesup that becomes a material to
play with because there's somepeople might just go into like a
fully receptive, like I'm here.
It might be devotional, itmight be service oriented, it
might just be like fullmeditation, where there's not
any resistance, they're justkind of receiving whatever it is

(20:54):
they've asked for that you'reoffering them.
But the brats got.
I mean, do you remember whatyou did or said in that moment?
Great, what was it?

Kyle Lovett (21:04):
I didn't say anything because I was just in
grunt mode.
I was like but you put yourfoot on my back and you were
trying.
I was on my knees and you putyour foot on my back to kind of
push me forward to make surethat you could continue the
impact, and I sat up andresisted your foot going down.

(21:27):
So there was this pressure ofyour foot and my back against it
.
So that's a great example ofthe brat energy of just there is
resistance to the thing beingshared.
So it's like okay, I'm atsubmissive state and then the
brat comes on when the dominantor someone on the top position
is telling me to do somethingand I'm like no, or I don't, or

(21:50):
I do it in a way that's annoying, or I do it like like I've done
that with, I love doing thatwith her.
Actually, she'll tell mesomething.
She'll be like okay, neil, itmight like put I don't remember
a specific but like she'll tellme something very specific to do
and then I'll do it, but in away that's like only the words
she said I'm obeying, but I'mlike doing it in an annoying way

(22:12):
.
She's like come over here, butI like come over there and I
like put my finger there insteadof my whole body or something
you know.
It's like I know what she means.
So I'm just it's like I'm I'minviting in the like rebellious
teenager energy which has beenincredibly healing, and just
accepting that that's part oflike my natural state and a lot
of arenas and a lot ofrelationships and like dynamics.

(22:35):
I freaking love it.
So that's my brat.

Taylor Johnson (22:37):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Thanks for that explanation andit brings a play into the
experience.
Sounds like not justsubmissively going over.

Ashley Berry (22:44):
I'm going to go, I'll sure I'll sit here, but
like I don't know, I'll stick myfinger like and then you, yeah,
that's sweet, yeah it makes melaugh, it makes me giggle, it
allows me then, in response, tohave something to play with that
might elicit a certain side ofme that wouldn't come out if
somebody was just not in anyresistance.

(23:06):
And so then I get to learn moreabout my own parts like oh, how
do I respond to that impulse?
And what I love about scenesand the scene is just a word,
for we're creating a container,we're agreeing to what we're
going to do within it.
There's improvisation thathappens, but there are some
basic parameters and usuallytime bound in some way, and

(23:30):
there's a threshold crossinginto the container and we act
out this scene that we've agreedon, and then there's a clear
closing of the container afterso, just to define the overview
of a scene.
But what I love about scenework in that way whether it
includes clues, role plays or orwhatever we're choosing is that

(23:52):
I think of it like sexy partswork for anybody who's into
internal family systems or partswork that to me and I'll
probably share some element ofthis when I share a story about
parts that I've gotten tointegrate, that I've been able
to touch into and become awareof in therapy sort of settings,

(24:13):
but not integrate and embody tothe level that I can in a kink
scene and I also imagine thatanyone would like acting
backgrounds or places where youreally get to go fully into a
character.
There's a merging and abilityto express in that space.
So I and have been inspired byKyle's expression of her brat

(24:36):
part to actually like discovermy own more and realize where
there was shame around, thatlike it's not okay to be a brat.
I'm going to be punished forbeing a brat.
This isn't something thatpeople enjoy.
So it has been deeply healingfor me to enjoy somebody else's
brat and then wire that in tolike, oh, if I enjoy it, then
maybe I could be enjoyed forthat part.

(24:59):
And then to experience peopleenjoying that part of me has
gone directly to that like sevenyear old or nine year old that
had a very different experienceof being a brat and to be met
with like, oh, you probably justneed to know where the
boundaries are.
You might not feel safe or thismight be a way of playing and

(25:20):
you want to be sassy and likethat's a beautiful part of you
and I love that.
So there's a lot of rewiringthat I've experienced with that
particular archetype, but in alot of different ways.

Taylor Johnson (25:33):
Nice.
So I'd love to go into the kinktank for a moment and ask you
you've done a couple of those sofar.
Right, is that right?
What's the?
What sort of?
So in my understanding it'sit's an opportunity for people
to come together and ask youanything about kink.
I'm curious if you're noticingtrends Like are there people

(25:56):
asking, are there similarquestions that show up each time
?
Are there?
Yeah, you're both nodding.
So, yeah, be curious aboutthose.
Like what are some of thethings that regularly come up
that you find yourself talkingabout or answering or wanting to
go into more depth with?

Kyle Lovett (26:15):
I'd love to kind of explain the kink tank like
trajectory to like what's itbegan with, like doing a
workshop together and just likekind of sharing a lot of
different things and invitingpeople to like come and be in
the space, ask us questions,we'll teach a little bit, and
then we'll have like a littlebit of discussion, q&a and

(26:36):
storytelling.
And then it turned into likethis deep desire to just have
this ongoing discussion groupforum like place where people of
all levels can come in and likebe with people that are in that
community, people that arecurious about it.
They can ask us questions, theycan ask each other questions,

(26:57):
like we can inspire each otherwith our stories.
It was kind of like okay, wewant to actually that.
It's like our greatest joy.
It's so much fun to have thoseconversations together and then
to bring in other people and tohave it be a co-creative space
is just incredibly inspiring andit has been for us, and so it's

(27:17):
definitely leading us intoconnecting it to a podcast as
well, so that we can continue,because the theme is that every
time we get off of the kink tank, we just are like flooded with
so many more things that we wantto talk about and so many
questions that were eitheranswered in a tiny way or
there's so many those nuances,the like, endless nuances, with

(27:39):
these like kink questions ortopics or anything.
There's so many differentthings and we're just two people
and so it's like, just like it,just it's so exciting.
So to like merge it with wehave a topic, we really get into
it and we definitely seeing itgoing into like there will be.
There's a theme of like a lot ofcuriosity right now.

(28:00):
I feel like actually you canattest to like there's a lot of
new energy of like.
I see what y'all are doing.
I think I'm really interested.
I've played with like a partnerbefore, but I want to get, I
want to have more education or Iwant to do it safer.
I want to unwind the shame thatI know I have, but I want to
like unwind it so I can be moreconnected to my partner and bed
or right, like there's so manyof these, I've tasted it.

(28:23):
I want to know more and I wantto do it in a way that's
conscious and a way that's likeconnected and grounded and like
clear.
And yeah, is there anythingelse, ashley, that you can add
to that?

Ashley Berry (28:39):
Yeah, I love that we are getting a lot of people
who are newer to this space andnot all of them, you know and
there's some people that come inand then they're able to share
their experiences and storiesand so everybody gets to kind of
share in ways that's ideallybenefiting or opening curiosity

(29:02):
for other people.
But I'm definitely noticing apattern of people who are either
intrigued or have just startedthis or have maybe dabbled some
but want to go deeper, that theway we've created this container
seems to be drawing people whoare like this feels like a safe
enough place to dip my toes in,and so it goes from like the

(29:26):
basic definitions, like wait,can you just define what all of
these things are?
And we just want to understandwhat this world is and what
these things mean, like what's aflogger and, yeah, what is a
switch and what's the differencebetween Dom and Sub and top and
bottom.
So there's some of those likelogistical questions.

(29:47):
But then people also are reallysharing vulnerably and I'm
finding a lot of threads therewith people who have both had
these amazing openingexperiences and who are also
looking for really safe placesto explore this, because bless

(30:09):
the kink community for reallyleading the charge on consent
conversations in a lot of ways,and I think the lineage of this
practice is one of the biggestinspirations, I think, for the
level of consent conversationswe're having now.
There's this built-in structurethat has been there for many,
many, many years, that we'reconstantly evolving together in

(30:32):
community and, like anything,there's a spectrum of the way
that people hold that andpeople's level of understanding.
So we are also getting a lot ofpeople that are even wanting
feedback about like where areresources where I can go in my
community where I can experiencethis, what kind of
practitioners are good to workwith and how do I know how to

(30:56):
ask the right question to findthe right practitioner for me?
And yeah, so there's a lot ofthat level of questioning.
And then all the way to peoplewho are like I'm doing this
scene, I want to know how I canget even more into the
psychology of this and likewhat's here and available and

(31:19):
exploring the nature of thehuman psyche and the realm of
the unconscious or thesubtleties of consent or the
subtleties of sensation, and sowe can get into like
nitty-gritty with supportingpeople to develop their scenes
and their play as well.

Taylor Johnson (31:36):
This podcast is brought to you by all the men
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So if you want to check thoseout, there are links in the
episode description and, withall that being said, thank you
again.
Let's get back to today'sepisode.
What is kink?
I mean, I would be curious tohear what you would say, you

(32:43):
know.

Ashley Berry (32:44):
Yeah, kyle, would you like to go first on that one
?

Kyle Lovett (32:51):
What is kink?
It is so many things.
Ultimately, it's an umbrellaterm and I think, like anything
like sexuality or genderidentity, it depends on the
person using it and what theymean when they're saying my kink

(33:12):
, or kink in general or the kinkcommunity, versus like kink
professional.
There's all these differentsegments and kink for me has
been a place where I couldexplore and heal and learn and
grow and unwind shame andfreaking play, adult play, being

(33:38):
center of the moments and thescenes, and it's continuously
evolving and it's continuouslysupporting my own being and then
now my clients and people thatare interested in being in this

(34:02):
work or hiring people in thiswork to like find and develop
different parts of themselves.
I love that you said like it'slike sexy parts work, because
that has been what kink has beenfor me.
And it's this like invitationfor platonic play all the way
through full arrows and leadinginto like extreme, blissful,

(34:27):
transcendental sexualexperiences.
Like it can be from one end ofthe scale to the other.
And I always love bringing inthe fact that kink does not mean
sex to a lot of people whenthey're caught when they're
talking about kink and for along time for me it had
absolutely nothing to do withsex and then it's like later on

(34:49):
I was like, oh, I'm going toexplore this with like sexual
partners now it was definitely asolo journey and a journey with
like friends and deepfriendships, and so I like to
make sure that that's sharedwhen I explain kink, because a
lot of people culturally, whenyou hear kink you think about
like wild sex, like bondage andsex, and there's sex has to be a

(35:12):
part of that and it absolutelycan be and it is a.
It can be an incredible tooland like exploration within the
bedroom and within partnershipor sexual relationships, but
it's a spectrum it's a spectrumlike all the things.

Taylor Johnson (35:28):
I like that.
You said that because when Ithink of I said this before we
started talking but I've neverseen an advertisement or any
sort of material talking aboutkink where somebody is just
wearing like a sweater andsweatpants.
It's always somebody's in somesort of sexy outfit or lingerie

(35:51):
or like black pants or they havelike a leather wristband on or
something.
I've never seen somebodytalking about kink wearing a
Christmas sweater.

Kyle Lovett (36:01):
Can I speak to that ?

Taylor Johnson (36:02):
Please yeah.

Kyle Lovett (36:04):
Can I speak to that ?
Because literally for manyyears every weekend I would end
up at the dungeon and I wouldlike work a 14 hour shift at
work and then go in mysweatpants to the dungeon and
like watch scenes.
That was literally part it was.
I didn't play, I didn't take offmy pants, I was literally just

(36:27):
going to be in a room full ofadults playing to decompress
after a long day, and so it'slike every time, it's like
absolutely the culture aroundkink and the like way that media
and like a lot of peopleexpress it absolutely wraps up
in like sexuality andempowerment and like feeling

(36:48):
like hot and dominating orwhatever archetype you're
working on or wanting to bringinto your life.
All of that is true, and I'veseen a lot of people in kinky
spaces in sweatpants having agrand old time or just like
sweatpants and like tyingsomeone up, you know, like in,
like practicing ropes and likebondage.

(37:09):
It's like it can also be that Imean we, literally we literally
had a shared client recently.

Ashley Berry (37:16):
We offer like immersive experiences, like
multiple days soloing with thetwo of us, and we, like this
week, we're literally wearingsweatshirts and sweatpants in
playing with bondage as well, asI just want to speak to how fun
it is to play with what we wear, and Kyle brought up archetypes

(37:39):
and that kind of archetypalexploration through I mean like
getting ready for a session,especially holding it as a
professional.
It's like I don't feel anypressure to dress any way other
than what I want to.
It kind of is nice, it goes withthe territory, Like some people
will make requests but I'm likeno, you're coming to see me
because I'm a dom, so I'm goingto do what I want within the

(38:00):
realm of your consent, but likeI want to wear what feels good
to me and so often it's likethere are things I might not
wear in my day to day life thatI get to put this character on
who's not fake, like it's a partof me but it's a part that
until I started doing this workdidn't get to step into in the

(38:22):
same way and really there's likefor a lot of people I think
there's like a fake it to you.
Make it too Like.
Just try this, this mask on,try this outfit on.
How does it feel?
Look in the mirror like playwith your voice tone and your.
I mean I do that beforesessions.
I'm like phew, like cross thethreshold, put on an outfit Like

(38:44):
I'm going to play with thispart of me today and she might
talk differently and movedifferently and stand
differently than day to dayAshley would.
But then when I go back to dayto day, ashley, I have more
options to play with becauseI've created those containers
for those archetypes to developmore.

Taylor Johnson (39:04):
Yeah.

Ashley Berry (39:04):
Yeah.

Taylor Johnson (39:06):
Awesome.

Ashley Berry (39:07):
Yeah.
So to the kink question yeah, Iagree with everything that Kyle
said and my, I guess,subjective definition for me is
and circling back to thatinitial initial statement of
kink is a trauma response fromthe lens I'm looking at.
Being human on this planet isan experience where everything

(39:33):
is pretty kinked, like there aremoments where we find these
pathways where there's totalcongruence and coherence and
like that's a and we're reallyconnected with our divinity and
whatever you believe about that.
But I think we've all had thosemoments where it's just like
things are quiet and still andit's like, wow, everything is
coherent.

(39:54):
And in witnessing the worldinternally, externally, clearly
there's a lot of shit happeningon this planet that is fucked.
And to me I'm like I chose tocome here to experience this and
if I can have kink as asomewhat controlled,

(40:14):
experimental place to exploreall of those archetypes, to
explore those primal parts, toexplore my predator, like what's
the part of me that like wantsto play with violence but
doesn't want to cause harm, andif I give that part an outlet,
then that's not coming outsideways in the world.
I think so much of what comesout in the world that it causes

(40:36):
harm are these primal aspects ofus as creatures who are still
like connecting our limbic brainwith our prefrontal cortex and
working on ascension orintegration or whatever you want
to call that.
We cannot deny that there arestill primal animal impulses

(40:56):
there and I think it's abeautiful thing to want to
transcend or be in relationshipwith those in a different way,
and it's also a fucking amazingthing to express them and to
gain mastery over them throughthat kind of practice.
That happens when we have aconversation about like what are
you a yes and what are you a nofor, and then, like, we get to

(41:19):
let it out and I think sexuallyas well just to like I echo what
Kyle said about it it can becompletely non sexual, but
sexually, for me, kink has beena space that has unlocked a lot
of portals for arousal that Ididn't realize how much
creativity and imagination andI'm a total sapiosexual like
getting off on intellectual playand being able to bring those

(41:42):
elements in or have pleasurablesensation that's not just
focused on genital stimulationand get to feel arousal pathways
from, like my fingertipsthrough, like, the entire
nervous system and really gointo the subtleties of sensation
by creating a space where theexplicit focus doesn't have to

(42:04):
be on penis and vaginapenetration and that can be even
hotter once we're like in aspace of like I fucking love
teasing denial.
I'm like I want you to bring meto a place where I'm like
begging for it and then whenthere's finally a penetration,
that happens like the amount ofsensation and activation that

(42:28):
can happen there after all ofthat build up and all of this
other creative play and bringingmore parts of me online.
So it's like I get more of mypartner, my partner gets more of
me.
Because we're kind of askingthese questions or playing in
these realms where I'm like, oh,this one is here and in this
part is here, and you get toexperience more of me.
Whereas, like, without at leastallowing ourselves the

(42:54):
possibility of being creativeand seeing what we might like,
it's really easy to get in theseruts of how we engage in sexual
connection, which can often gointo a place of performance,
because it's like this is whatit's supposed to be and even if
it's not what I'm feeling likethis is what it is, and so

(43:14):
busting out of that creates notonly more arousal, but it's
building new neural pathwayswhere, like, oh, I don't
actually have to be in this rutof how I've experienced this if
I don't want to be.

Taylor Johnson (43:31):
Yeah, take a breath to that.
Yeah, yeah, thanks, thanks.
I'm hearing and imagining andthinking about the world and
what you've just shared.
And, yeah, the world there is alot of really fucked up stuff

(43:54):
happening in the world and welive in a society that's really,
I would say, has a lot offucked up views about sex and
intimacy and needs and desiresand anything other than just, oh
, stay in your nice quiet littlebox and don't disturb other
people.
Like you talked about that sortof primal, animalistic, predator
drive Like that's fuckingamazing to explore.

(44:14):
How many people have ever donethat?
Probably very few have reallytapped into that and I'm seeing
kink umbrella term as it's thecontainer to explore all these
different parts of ourself thatwe might never otherwise be able
to but that do impact our livesand our relationships on a

(44:37):
regular basis.
So better to explore them withconsciousness and have them
unconsciously driving ourbehaviors right, and through the
exploration there can also bejoy and pleasure and connection
and pain, but pleasurable painand healing and growth.

(45:01):
And yeah, that's just I think.
Yeah, I'll pause there.
See if anything comes up foreither of you that just felt
like it wanted to come throughand share that piece.

Ashley Berry (45:14):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for naming that,
articulating that so well, justbringing the unconscious to the
conscious and into a realm ofconsent.
And yeah, I think it is rare.
I think it's rare that we getto have consensual, deeply
intimate, connected containersfor those parts to come out.

(45:35):
I think they're often eithersuppressed or they're causing
harm.
So, like that talk about theheart pull that you were
speaking to Kyle, like that tome, like really gets into my
heart space, just in terms ofthe world that I wanna live in

(45:58):
and my own inclination to showup and create in a way that
serves a more consent-basedreality, and that honoring the
places where we're not quitethere yet and humbling ourselves
to practice and having a spaceto practice and knowing that

(46:19):
creating new neural pathways andnew patterns works faster and
better when it's paired withpleasure, is like a no-brainer
Really.
That's a no-brainer to putthose things together Plus, just
to speak to the play piece.
Play is our first mode oflearning.
We learn through play, and whenwe lose that, as so often

(46:46):
happen as adults, it's just soglorious to be able to express
and watch how quickly learningand integration happens and, as
a sexual being, to be able toeven return to moments when we

(47:06):
were curious and wanting toexplore our sexuality.
And then, through a culture ofso many, people who are
conditioned in certain ways withshame or lack of understanding,
or it belongs here, whatever itis, to not be met with equal
curiosity or permission toexpress those part of ourselves,
to then circle back later andbe able to have permission.

(47:33):
It just rewires the whole thing.
And then one other thing itbrought up for me is compassion.
If I go into the part of methat authentically is capable of
being a predator in some way,and I'm doing it in a place

(47:54):
that's committed to like that ina predator, I mean like tying
somebody up and wrestling themuntil they're exhausted and
playing that role, but I get toactually access that.
And accessing it not onlyintegrates it for me, but it
helps give me some frame ofreference for what I'm seeing
outpictured in the world andhave compassion for how powerful

(48:17):
that energy is and how, withoutproper guidance, that can go
astray.
So it's like then when I'mlooking at people who are
causing harm, there's a littlebit of a different lens on like
where that might be coming fromand how that might integrate.

Taylor Johnson (48:37):
Yeah, I'd love to thank you.
I'd love to bring this into therealm of the practical, to
maybe close up the last quarterof this conversation that way,
in the sense of noticing likewe've talked about predator
stuff a fair amount.
Say, there's somebody listeningto this episode and they're
like, oh, that sounds reallyinteresting.

(48:57):
I'd like to try that with mypartner.
What do I do?
I don't know how to do that.
I could play that role of thatperson or I don't know like I
think it would be great.
How would you tell somebody toexplore that safely and full of
pleasure with their partner?

(49:18):
How would you guide them intothat?
What steps would be importantto think about?
What conversations would needto be had?
What does that even look like?
What could that look like?
That would be really cool to beable to give somebody.
Like here's something you cantake away and try this.
So I'm gonna pass it back toboth of you.

Ashley Berry (49:36):
I'll describe something that I love playing
with and that we'll do inworkshops sometimes and that's
amazing to do one-on-one, as yousaid, what's a safe, simple
entry point for people.
So getting into the charactersof predator and prey.
And it's really fun to actually, if there's certain animals

(49:59):
that we can go into a briefmeditation and be like, okay, if
you were prey whether it's avisualization or however,
someone gets into that and itmight be just like starting with
, like get on your hands andknees and start to crawl around
and what do you feel like?
Do you feel like a sloth?
Do you feel like a bunny rabbit?
Do you feel like and it might,you know that's an example that

(50:21):
can be.
An easier access point to theprimal place is going into
connection with the animalarchetypes, how they move and
how they express.
And then the predator might belike I feel like a big cat and
then just chasing each other,for example, like okay, one
person be the prey and like I'mgonna be whatever, whatever kind

(50:43):
of animal I wanna be and I'mgonna try to capture you and
you're gonna try to get awayfrom me, and so that might look
like them, like literally, likerunning away and like going and
like grabbing and like tacklingthem to the ground and being
mindful of body parts and, youknow, doing that in a way that
learning how to fall is helpful,but yeah, even something as

(51:06):
simple as that, or like bothpeople crawling on all fours and
one people being in theposition of like I'm stalking
you, is like such a simpleaccess point.
And from there, once you're inthose roles, what I notice
usually is like there arecertain impulses that will come
up.
That's like, oh, I wanna likepull your hair and turn you down

(51:27):
and like bite your neck rightnow, and just giving space to
follow those impulses and,ideally, checking in beforehand
If there's anything that youdefinitely know you wouldn't
want someone to do.
But sometimes in the beginningexploration, you don't know what
those things are.
So that's where we'll useyellow and red and yellow being

(51:49):
the pause button and justagreeing if that was the only
agreement that people made, ifthey didn't have the intel about
their own proclivitiesbeforehand to be like call
yellow or say pause anytimesomething doesn't feel good and
then we'll have a check in aboutit and then we'll go back in to
.
I'll just leave that there aslike one potential entry point.

Taylor Johnson (52:10):
Yeah, so I'm visualizing there's a couple,
they're in their house, theyagree to play this out.
Seems like they have aconversation about this
beforehand.
You probably wouldn't wannasurprise your partner with you
being the predator and theydon't know that they're the prey
, I would imagine.

Kyle Lovett (52:26):
That's why I'm the conversation.

Ashley Berry (52:28):
You can integrate that.
You could say can I sometimessurprise you by being a predator
?
Would you be open?
To that consensual non-consentat some point.
But that's a conversation, yeah.

Taylor Johnson (52:40):
Yeah, well, that seems really interesting to
play with, for sure.
But yeah, having theconversation, maybe the word
yellow or pause, like agreeingupon that upfront, and then one
of them is the little bunnyrabbit or something hopping
around their living room and I'mjust seeing this.
The other person is maybe, whoknows, like a cheetah or
something, crawling from behind,like seeing the little rabbit

(53:02):
for the first time and then likeprouncing after, going after
and chasing around the house andthat sounds really fun.
It sounds like a really funthing to do and I imagine I
could see like, yeah, that couldtotally stay in the platonic
playful wrestle realm.
I could see that going thesexual way too, but that's just,
it's fun to kind of think aboutthat out loud.

(53:23):
Kyle, what would you add tothis practice?

Kyle Lovett (53:27):
Yeah, so it is fun.
I love that practice and I wantto speak into like kind of the
same thing taking out the animalpiece because, like primal,
like coming into being an animalfor some people is deeply
uncomfortable or like not at allinteresting or fun.
And so to even just have likethe mentality, like having the

(53:51):
conversation, having all of thethings and even chasing each
other around, but having oneperson be like the stalker and
the like hunter of someonethat's agreeing to be the hunted
and to just be in that energyexchange without the animal
piece, can also be incredibly,like surprisingly arousing for

(54:13):
people.
Or also in that initialconversation or after the fact
it could be, now we switch.
So now I've explored thatversion of myself.
I want you to explore that withme.
Why don't you chase me nowaround the house and like, what
do you want to do with my bodyif you actually catch me?
There's this like this moment inthat kind of chase, no matter

(54:37):
what the lens is of once youeven catch up to the prey or the
person being hunted, it's likewell then there's that moment of
like.
It's like when you're a kid andyou're like you like play tag
and you like tagger it.
It's like there's even moreopportunity to like let your
impulses be there, Even in thelike person being caught.

(55:00):
It's like maybe my impulses tolike push them away, or maybe
it's to like surrender and doexactly what they say.
It's like there's all of theselike moments of potential, of
exploring and learning a lotabout yourself that could
absolutely easily like go intosexual, sexual, erotic kind of

(55:21):
experiences together and to justlike have.
I think it's really importantto at least play with both sides
of it, to really feel thoseenergies within ourselves, no
matter what gender identity youhave or like what partner you
know.
Like it's yeah.

Taylor Johnson (55:38):
That's what I would add.
Yeah, I like that.
Thank you, yeah.

Kyle Lovett (55:41):
And using your senses.
I think, when it comes toplaying with that, like smelling
, like literally just smellingyour partner, like how about you
just relax and I'm just gonnalike smell different parts of
your body, and that can beincredibly arousing.
It can be like weird anduncomfortable and funny, it can

(56:02):
be playful, it can be like thiswhole range.
It's like just smelling andthen maybe just tasting, you
know, and like using your teeth,like in different ways, and
there's all these kinds of waysto use every single sense to
explore those energiesconsciously.
And you can have conversationsabout like where are you okay

(56:25):
with me smelling you?
Or where are you okay with melike using my mouth on you?
You know, like all over.
So that can absolutely be.
That's a.
Really.
I love that practice.
I love that experience.

Ashley Berry (56:36):
I love that one too.
The scenario that comes to mindis like if we were nonverbal
creatures and one wasdiscovering the other, like, say
, someone starts laying down andthey're just like oh, I'm
hibernating, maybe I'm a bonoboor something, and we're not
talking yet.
And the other one goes into themindset of, like I'm

(56:58):
discovering this creature forthe first time and I don't have
words to get to know themthrough conversation.
How do I use all five senses inthis sense?
of like what is this being?
How does it move?
How does it smell Like?
That to me, is like ugh.
It's such a yummy place, in adifferent way, to get to know
each other's bodies and systemsas well.

Taylor Johnson (57:19):
Yeah, I love that.
It makes me want to try thislater today actually, we'll see
if I have time, but maybe in thenext few days.
It's occurring to me that I'mseeing a sticking point here for
a lot of people and that is,say, they're doing this exercise
and they catch their partner.
One person catches theirpartner.
Then what?

(57:42):
And the sticking point for meis I want to really recommend
I'm sure you're both includethis in the work you do.
But, like, the wheel of consentis a really magnificent,
powerful tool and, prior to me,learning that like that
fundamentally changed my entireexperience of life, but also sex

(58:03):
.
When I learned about this, andprior to learning about it,
whenever I would be in a sexualexperience, I would cross
different things up, like, forexample, if I were to be going
down on my partner, I would beenjoying that, but I would be
trying to do it for her.
You know, oh, I'm trying toplease her, I'm trying to make

(58:23):
her feel really good, but at thesame time, I'm trying to get
pleasure out of it, and becauseboth of those things are
happening at once withoutawareness, like neither one of
them is as good as it could be,so I'm seeing you know, if I'm
the predator and I go and catchmy prey and I don't know that
it's actually okay for me tojust take from my partner for my
own pleasure, you know,assuming you've talked about it

(58:44):
beforehand, then I might try tolike oh, now, what do I do?
I guess maybe I need to massagetheir shoulders or I need to do
something that makes them feelgood, you know, and then it
might change like then, all of asudden you're out of a predator
dynamic, right.
All of a sudden you're into thegiving or the caretaking or
something like that dynamic.
And so I would say that there'sa great video on YouTube by

(59:06):
Betty Martin, all about theWheel of Consent.
I'd say, go watch that beforeyou try this.
I don't know if you would agree.
I see you both nodding for likeAbsolutely.

Ashley Berry (59:17):
Vigorous nods yes.

Taylor Johnson (59:19):
Yeah, I remember when my partner and I watched
that my partner at the time,many years ago we were both like
we would watch it and then wewould look at each other and we
would look back at the screenlike, holy shit, how are we in
our 30s and we've neverconsidered this before?
How have we done all thesedifferent sex workshops and
tantric things?
And nobody's ever talked aboutthis?
Like what the fuck is wrong?

(59:39):
Like this should be anelementary education, you know.

Kyle Lovett (59:43):
Game changer.

Taylor Johnson (59:44):
Yeah, so I'll get off my soapbox for that.
But like that plus thisexercise would be delicious.

Kyle Lovett (59:51):
It would be delicious and just like having
the like.
I'm sure you've had that withyour partner, that you were
watching that with the like postconversations.
After you learn about the Wheelof Consent, to really tune in
to why we do what we do, whatturns us on about it, A big part
of like my own personalexperience is realizing that

(01:00:14):
giving someone pleasure issomething that really turns me
on.
So I do that for my pleasure alot of the time and it's not
actually for like, it is fortheir pleasure.
But it's like mixed in and tobe able to like tell sexual
partners or even clients where Iwant you to use my body for

(01:00:35):
your pleasure and that's gonnabring me so much pleasure.
It's like that can be a wholerewiring of like.
Are you sure I'm like, yeah,you can take anything you want.
You know Like and these are youknow it's just like.
It can be a full rewiring.
Having those conversations whenyou're not in the middle of it,
or stopping when you catch theprey and figuring it out, or

(01:00:59):
like decompressing.
It's like to have thoseconversations and really deep,
go into yourself, have your ownconversation with yourself and
like journal about it and likereally feel into like what
really brings you joy, whatreally turns you on, what you
really enjoy about seeing andfeeling in your partner or your
sexual experiences, or like whatintrigues you.

(01:01:20):
It's like all of those pieceswithin the Wheel of Consent is a
freaking phenomenal baseline Ifeel like really important, like
foundational resource to reallybe able to even like step into
a lot of exploration, especiallywhen it comes to kink.
So yeah, that's what I'll sayon that.

Ashley Berry (01:01:43):
That makes me want to speak about objectification
and how much we've talked about,like your enjoy Kyle's
enjoyment of objectification andI have levels of enjoyment of
that as well and just turning iton its head, like all of these
opportunities to explore certaincultural things that exist in
polarization, like, and come atit from a different angle where

(01:02:08):
like, oh, non-consensualobjectification doesn't feel
great for a lot of people andconsensual objectification can
feel fucking amazing and it'slike one of my favorite things
is having these brain fritzmoments.
And another great resource isExistential Kink by Dr Carolyn
Elliott, where you're basicallylooking at the things that

(01:02:31):
you're resisting or the thingsthat come into your world that
you're like, oh, why does thiskeep happening?
And then it's like, oh, becauseI like it, because I think it's
fucking hot and I just had solike objectification I think is
one of those amazing thingswhere just exploring, okay, what
if I say, objectify me?
And then like having a momentof being aroused by it and being

(01:02:55):
like what I actually do, likethat, and maybe I've just been
told that I don't like that or Idon't like it in the way that
it's been done, but there'sother ways.
And I recently found this withrejection.
This was such an exciting momentfor me this week.
It's like, oh, I actually love,like there's a part of me that

(01:03:15):
loves rejection, and sosomething like a teasing denial
or like dynamic or like becomegoing into like this devotional,
submissive position, and evenit's like getting to the place
of begging, like I want yourattention, I want you to fuck me
, like I want these things.
And being told no, the levelthat I got to with it recently

(01:03:40):
just blew my fucking mind.
I was like, oh my God, like assomebody with like ADHD and
who's had rejection sensitivityin all these ways, I was like,
oh shit, I finally found the wayto enjoy it.
And now it's like I just had aconversation with a lover last
night that I was like I reallywant you to tell me no, I really
want you to deny me.
Like how long can you do that?

(01:04:00):
Because, like there's somejuice in here that I'm excited
about exploring.
Yeah, interesting.

Kyle Lovett (01:04:07):
And to like speak even more into that.
It's like the potential of likeutilizing containers for the
things, even if you can't, ifyou're not in a place where
you're tapping into.
The things that really make youuncomfortable, that really
trigger you in your day-to-daylife, the things that you do not
like.
You are certain that you do notlike to have a place or

(01:04:29):
container or space or partner orprofessional to go into that
thing so that you canconsensually be with it can be
so transformational as well.
So if it's objectification andyou hate getting catcalled and
you're so tired of how men lookat you or whatever it is, or how
women want you as a man to bein a certain way all the time

(01:04:53):
and whatever, it is providingand protecting and always being
strong.
Yeah, you need to provide andprotect.
Don't cry or wait.
Whatever it is the culturalconditioning of like I don't
like that and I want to movethrough that, or I want to work
through that, or I'm activelyworking through that to have a
container where that is invitedinto its entirety to go into and
you can consensually rewritethat freaking story.

(01:05:15):
You can walk into that andrespond in the way that you wish
you would have.
You know, like.
Those are the kinds of thingsthat are possible within sexual
romantic relationships, withinkink, platonic professional
dynamics or lifestyle dynamics.
It's like there's just sothat's like that also around.

(01:05:36):
If you can't get to theexistential like oh, I like this
thing that I thought I hated.
That sometimes comes after therewrite of it and realizing if I
can like, come on the other endof it and be invited into the
other side of it, then I canactually learn to like, like it
or appreciate it or think itwhen it happens in the day to
day life and be like.

(01:05:57):
I know what I'm gonna say later.

Ashley Berry (01:05:59):
You know, or practice, or practice how to
have boundaries with it.
Like, get to try on.
Okay, what if I say no in thisway?
What if I?
What if?
What if I respond with aquestion or like my own dorm
energy?
What if I just walk away?
What if I like getting to dothat kind of role play of like

(01:06:20):
let's run this scene a bunch oftimes.
How many ways do you wanna trysetting this boundary and where
does it feel uncomfortable?
Where do you go into a freezeor a fawn or a fight, and what
other options are available?
There is super valuable, yeah.

Kyle Lovett (01:06:37):
Yeah.

Ashley Berry (01:06:38):
And the desire.
I have to say something aboutthe desire, which is where I
found the rejection piece, isthat in being met with no and
actually being brought to aspace where wanting to beg for
something is authentic, thewhole thing was arousing because

(01:07:00):
it gave me a pathway to arelationship with desire.
Like I wanna let my desire getbig enough that I can experience
what it's like at that levelwithout having what I want, in a
way that can preemptively it'slike it satiates but cuts off
the desire, and I'm interestedin being in relationship with
the energy of desire.

(01:07:20):
So if I have somebody elseholding a container of certain
parameters or boundaries wherethat can grow and that's one
thing I'll say for so many ofthe a lot of my clients are men
and cisgender men and I loveworking with people of all
genders, but that's a lot of.
Who comes is that's one of thethings I see consistently over
and over again is somebody likeoh my goodness, I can come and

(01:07:44):
have somebody else holdboundaries, hold their own
boundaries, create aconversation that's clear, where
we have an understanding ofwhat the boundaries are
beforehand, so they know wherethey can and can't explore, but
then, inside of that, be invitedinto me saying I want you to
let your desire get as big asyou want it to be and not have

(01:08:06):
to tiptoe around whether or notyou're going to elicit some kind
of reaction, or like it's myrole in a professional sense to
say I know where my lines areand hopefully that gives you a
sense of safety where you canlet yourself find out what's

(01:08:26):
there.
When you let your desire get asbig as it is and know that I'll
tie you up if I need to, or likeI'll hit the pause button if I
need to, but that not having tocare, take for the other
person's boundaries, having someopportunity to do that, to just
discover the self, is like isreally really powerful.

(01:08:51):
Yeah.

Taylor Johnson (01:08:52):
Yeah, and really valuable, potentially too.
Like I'm imagining it would bequite tricky to do that same
thing within your long-termrelationship.
I mean, hypothetically, I guessit could be done, but it would
be very different with aprofessional who's there just to
support you on your own journey, with that.
Like that could be rich in away that you just couldn't have

(01:09:15):
from somebody else.
In the same way, it's nice tohave a therapist instead of
going to your partner with allyour problems.
Exactly, yeah, similar sort ofthing, cool yeah.
Thank you both so much for thisconversation.
It's been really rich and I'velearned some really cool things

(01:09:36):
and I love that.
We got into that exercise and Iimagine if people want to dive
more deeply into this stuff,they could come to your kink
tank events and or reach out toyou in whatever ways you'd like.
We'll obviously put all thoselinks in the show notes, but
what would you like to share?
Do you have anything coming upthat you want to tell people

(01:09:57):
about, any particular ways thatpeople could find you?
That sort of thing.

Kyle Lovett (01:10:02):
Well, kink tank is every third Tuesday at 5 pm
Pacific time On.

Ashley Berry (01:10:07):
Zoom.

Kyle Lovett (01:10:08):
It's a monthly offering on Zoom, so it's
virtual and, yeah, it'll beongoing every month.
So the next yeah, I don't knowwhen this will come out so the
next one is the third Tuesday ofthe month, nice, perfect.

Ashley Berry (01:10:21):
And we are launching our new site, which
should be up and live by thetime this episode is, and you'll
put it in the notes but it'sholistickinkcom and we will have
events listed on there, becausewe also do in-person workshops
and immersions and travel a fairamount.
So we're kind of lookingtowards something in LA in the

(01:10:47):
spring, in probably somewhere inNorthern California on the East
Coast, and we'll have all ofthose things listed there.
And then we're also availablefor both kink consultations or
guided sessions as our pro-domor pro-switch or intimacy coach
selves, and that's all outlinedthere, yeah.

Kyle Lovett (01:11:08):
Nice and it's whole with a W, so holistic with a W.

Taylor Johnson (01:11:15):
Awesome.
Well, we'll put all that in theshow notes.
Thank you both again so muchand thank you for listening.
If you have any questions orthoughts about this episode,
head over to the YouTube versionand put it as a comment there.
I'll definitely check that outand get back with you and check
out Ashley and Kyle's work theKink Tank and thank you so much.
I'll see you next time.