July 1, 2025 • 33 mins
Whether you’re a seasoned dog trainer or a passionate dog owner, this episode will change how you approach training — forever.
Join expert trainers Lauren Langman and Dave Hibbert as they unpack the Small Incremental Learning System (SILS) — the step-by-step method behind reliable, long-lasting behaviour change in dogs of all breeds and backgrounds.
For trainers, SILS may feel familiar — a structure you've used instinctively. For dog owners, it’s a practical roadmap to transform your dog’s behaviour without overwhelm, frustration, or gimmicks.
💡 What You’ll Learn:
- What SILS is — and why it’s the foundation behind every truly successful training plan
- How small steps create powerful, lasting behaviour
- Lauren’s 12-step retrieve sequence and how it applies to any skill
- Why quick fixes fail (and what to do instead)
- How to troubleshoot and rebuild behaviour without going back to square one
Whether you’re coaching clients, preparing for competition, or simply want better communication with your dog, this episode gives you the system to make it happen.
🎧 Listen now — and unlock the power of step-by-step, reliable, real-world dog training.
If you’re loving the podcast, you’ll love our NEW Sexier than a Squirrel Dog Training Challenge even more! Get transformational dog training today for only £27!
Want even more epic dog training fun and games and solutions to all your dog training struggles? Join us in the AbsoluteDogs Games Club!
https://absolutedogs.me/gamesclub
Want to take your learning to the next level? Jump into the games-based training membership for passionate dog owners and aspiring trainers that know they want more for themselves and their dog - Pro Dog Trainer Club!
https://absolutedogs.me/prodogtrainerclub
And while you’re here, please leave a review for us and don’t forget to hit share and post your biggest lightbulb moment! Remember, no matter what struggles you might be facing with your dog, there is always a game for that!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel
podcast.
I'm Lauren Langman.
I'm one of the world's leadingdog trainers and it's my mission
to help owners become theirdog's top priority.
In each episode, you'lldiscover how to gain trust and
communicate with your dog likenever before, creating
unbreakable bonds that make youthe most exciting part of their
world.
Hello and welcome to the Sexand Squirrel podcast, a podcast
(00:31):
that gives you real life, dogtraining and sometimes human
results too.
Today, I'm joined by thewonderful Dave, and Dave and I
are talking sills not windowsills or other sills.
But what type of sills, dave?
Not?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
windowsills or other sills.
But what type of sills, dave?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
We are talking about the small incremental learning
system today.
Now, that sounds maybe not assmall as you're describing.
Do you want to dive a littledeeper for us, because these
guys are here thinking thatthey're going to be sexy in a
squirrel.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
How does this apply?
Yeah, so the small incrementallearning system.
So this forms a really reallykey part of our training
philosophy.
So, in conjunction with theABCs, the small incremental
learning system, or our SILSprocess, gives us the platform
to make sure that when we'retraining, that the dogs are
actually making progress.
(01:27):
And this is what's really,really important, because we
always say it's about progress,not perfection.
And this small incrementallearning system just gives us
that platform to make sure thatwe're constantly challenging the
dog in very, very small chunksand very, very small steps to
actually get better at what wewant them to do.
(01:48):
And so what we always kind ofsay is uh, we take the first s,
which is small.
So what we want to do with ourtraining is to break everything
down into the smallest chunkspossible.
Now, the reason we do that isbecause we want to be able to
build every single individualbehavior and then link them
(02:09):
together.
And so if we then hit a problem, we're not jumping big steps to
try and fix a problem.
We're dealing very much withthe very, very small detail, um,
so that's why we focus on the.
The first s has been small.
Um, incremental is really,really important because, if you
(02:29):
think about a ladder, a laddergoes obviously vertically, and
so that's the same as what wewant to do with our dog training
, because there'd be no pointhaving a ladder trying to get
onto the roof of our house if itwas just horizontal.
And this is one of the thingsthat sometimes fails in dog
training is that we kind ofcarry on doing the same thing
and we kind of tweak a fewthings.
(02:51):
That makes us think, it makesthe dog think, but it doesn't
actually get us anywhere.
It doesn't actually makeanything incrementally different
.
We're just kind of doingdifferent things.
So what we always say is weneed to think about training
through our training ladder andgo from the bottom of the ladder
to the top of the ladder inorder for us to reach the top of
(03:12):
the house.
And this is why it's really,really important that the steps
are really small, because ifyou've got that ladder that's
going vertically and you'regoing from a to z, you need to
be able to put all the otherletters in the alphabet into
those slots, because youwouldn't be able to jump from a
to z.
You couldn't go from the groundfloor to the roof in one leap.
(03:34):
Similarly, you probablycouldn't go from the ground
floor to the roof in four leaps,and so we need to think about
training as that ladder and makeit incrementally more
challenging for the dog in orderto get us to our end result.
And then we talk about the L,which is learning, and this is
something I'm really passionateabout.
(03:55):
So learning is learning foreverybody.
So when we're training, we needto make sure that not just the
dog is learning.
So when we're training, we needto make sure that not just the
dog is learning, but actuallythe owner's learning or the
instructor's learning, and we'reall learning collectively.
And this is why it's great whenwe train in groups and we do,
you know, retreats and we dogroup sessions is that
(04:18):
everybody's learning fromeverybody else's experiences,
and so when we adopt the SILSprocess, it really focuses on
that learning aspect.
So, yes, we need to make surethe dog is learning the skills
they need, but actually we'realso empowering the owner to
learn and actually, if I'minstructing or we've got
instructors instructing, thatthey need to be learning at the
(04:40):
same time, because it's notalways the dog that is going to
do all the learning.
So I know that when I set uptraining exercises and when
we're doing retreats and we'redoing classes, that I'm actually
going to go away from thatsession learning something from
my students and learningsomething from the dogs that
I've worked with.
So it's really important whenwe adopt the SILS process that
(05:02):
that learning is what reallykind of intertwines everything
together and then Dave reallyquickly what you say with
learning.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
I think this is really massive and impactful
that we always have more tolearn 100% as an instructor, as
a dog handler, as a dog handler,as a competitive sports handler
.
I've been in dogs for 25 yearsprobably a little bit longer,
and that's a long time that'sway more than half of my life
(05:34):
and so actually the fact thatI'm an eager beaver saying I
still need to learn a lot moreand I'm still really open to
learning a lot more.
I think that's where, lookingat a lot of dog handlers and dog
people, they're not alwaysacknowledging that openly and I
think it's really important weacknowledge and leave ourselves
open to go I need to do thatcourse, or I need to head on to
(05:54):
some learning here, or actuallyI lack this skill, or actually
that's an area I need to skillup.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I mean, the day there's someonethat knows everything there is
to know about dogs is the daythat person needs to pack up and
stop, because you never stoplearning and you'll never be in
a position where, you know, I'ma big advocate of, of learning
um.
I've been lucky enough to learnfrom some absolutely fantastic
people and that's why, you know,when we do these podcasts, it's
(06:33):
it's our way of also sharingthat knowledge and and helping
other people learn um, because Ithink everybody learns from
each other and and whetheryou're a person with you know,
20 years experience, or orsomebody just starting out, you
know with with dogs, that we canstill learn from the person
just starting out with dogs,because sometimes we forget what
(06:54):
it's like to be that personstarting out with dogs.
You know, I've been in thisindustry for you know over two
decades, and you forgetsometimes what it's like to be
that brand new kid on the blockthat doesn't really know
anything, and so like that.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I think that's probably sometimes very humbling
, isn't it to be in thatposition and to realize quite
how that position is and feelslike it's a very humbling space
to sit and work, and it's a veryhumbling space to, to, to, to
be yeah, I think it's greatbecause and you know the course
is, you know we run a scentretreat, didn't we recently?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
and, um, I'm on the whatsapp group and the guys are
fantastic.
They're coming with all thesedifferent creative ideas of
building scent walls with drainpipes and all kinds of like.
Really great um, innovations.
And I'm looking at thesepictures coming and going god,
that's a great idea.
I'm going to steal that for myscent detection.
Dog training.
(07:50):
So I think, as I say, it reallyunderpins everything about, you
know, dogs and dog training isthat everybody's got something
to learn.
Um, and that's what's reallyimportant in the sales process
is, um, you know, certainly whenwe're running instructor
courses and train the trainercourses, is we really impress
(08:10):
upon this fact that just becauseyou're an instructor doesn't
mean to say you're not going tolearn from your students?
Um, and certainly in theworking dog capacity, very often
your students are the doghandlers that are still
operational and and out workingon the street, and so, actually,
you're learning loads and loadsof things from them to enable
(08:32):
you to make the dogs better andmake the handlers better
operationally, because withoutthat learning about what they're
going through day to day,because that's ever evolving,
then you're never going to bereally on top of your game.
And I think that's what'sreally important when you're an
instructor is you've really gotto tune into your students and
learn from them to enable you toput your skills in place to
(08:55):
make everybody better.
So, yeah, everybody has tolearn through the SILS process.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
So small incremental learning systems, let's talk.
Learning systems, let's talk uh, give me a bigger, give me a
dog training behavior, where youthink small sales, they, small
incremental learning systems,they really matter, or I mean I
get they matter everywhere.
But give me an example, let's.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Let's have something tangible that people can think
about and then maybe sometangible examples that go
alongside dave yeah, I think I'd, certainly if you use a working
dog capacity and I like to usebiting dogs that go out and
apprehend people, um.
So if you think about when wefirst start teaching a dog um,
you know, to bite the end goalis that they're able to run down
(09:37):
a high street and take out theperson that's running away with
a machete, for example, um.
But it takes a lot of steps toget to that process where you
know the dog's opening the mouthwide enough to be able to get
the mouth around the arm or theshoulder or whatever it might be
.
You've got the dog being fastenough to be able to chase after
(09:58):
the person running away.
You've got the dog being ableto identify and and see the
person running away.
So there's lots and lots ofthings that build into this end
result and this is why the smallincremental learning system is
really important, because thefirst thing we need to do, you
know, potentially, is actuallyget the dog to open its mouth
properly to bite a small bitetug, and that sometimes starts
(10:21):
when the puppy is, you know,nine weeks old for some training
.
So actually teaching the dog toopen its mouth and bite
properly, with the rightmechanics is is really important
.
So we'd start off on somethinglike a piece of sheepskin um.
Then we'd move to, um, a smallkind of sausage bite roll, then
(10:43):
we'd move on to a small wedgeand a bigger wedge, and a bigger
wedge, and a sleeve and a bitesuit and no bite suit, and so
all of these different steps andstages need to be built in the
right way, just checking here.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
When you say no bite suit, you do mean the criminal
by this point, right.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
You don't practice with no bite suit on well, we,
we have been known to wrapourselves in newspaper or
Newspaper what kind ofprotection is a newspaper going
to give you?
Well, you'd only do it for very,very novice dogs and let them
get on and off as quickly aspossible.
(11:19):
Thankfully, there's some reallygood innovative products in the
marketplace now.
But yes, you know, and this iswhat I say, this is what is
really, this is what it's reallyimportant that you've built
these steps incrementally to, toprepare the dog for the real
life environment.
And that's, you know, a reallyextreme example.
But, um, you know things likeyou.
(11:41):
Let's translate it into the petdog world.
So, for example, um, you know,if you've got a dog, I've got
one here.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
So on my screen, here I've got a shaped retrieve and
here oh, there you go here aremy 10 steps, or my 12 steps of a
shaped retrieve from level oneat power up your nose touch.
Level two introduce the objectand encourage the nose touch or
interaction.
Level three mouth around theobject.
Level four brief hold or grip,taking use or making use of
(12:09):
opposition reflex.
Level five add duration.
Level six pick up the object.
Level seven carry duration onobject.
Level eight send out for theobject and bring back.
Level nine get a grittyretrieve.
Level 10 add in differentobjects.
Level 11 generalize and proofand then could add the retrieve
into a box or tidy toys awayoption.
(12:30):
So we've gone like through allthe steps that we would perfect
and that's part of games club.
So, part of games club, we'vegot all of the tracks.
So within the tracks you mightdo a retrieve or a wrap.
It will take you all throughthe levels and will take you up
through the levels.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
So that's part of that track yeah, and I think I
think this is what's really key,and a lot of stuff with dog
training is, um, you know, Ialways say you know we're
talking about tracking andmantrailing and all these things
is they're all kind of wordsthat describe the same thing and
actually what?
What you've just um, you know,provided an example of is that
the sales process is really it'sactually in process with
(13:04):
everybody a lot of the time, andsometimes it's just putting the
words and the context aroundthat People go.
Oh yeah, I kind of understandwhere this is going now.
And it's very similar when wetalk about the ABCs.
When we actually go through ourkind of lessons and our
seminars on the ABCs, you startto see people go oh yeah, I
actually understand this.
And now you can see where I'mactually doing a lot of this
(13:26):
stuff, um, already.
And so, exactly like you'vedescribed, when we certainly
when we're running courses andwe're we're doing a lot of this
sales, um, kind of learning andtraining, is that people start
it's almost like the penny dropsand people go oh yeah, I can
kind of understand, um, wherethis is is coming.
But what's really important isthat we want it to be at the
(13:49):
forefront of everything we do,and I think very often we do
stuff without really thinking,and I always say we think, plan,
do review, and so part of thesales process is kind of cutting
across all of those think, plan, do review stages, because
(14:09):
we're making it incremental,we're learning, but there has to
be a system in place as well.
Um and I think that's the reallykey thing very often what I see
is people chopping and changingfrom different methods, so
we're very quick to dismisssomething if we don't get
instant gratification andinstant results, not not just in
(14:31):
dog training, but but in lifegenerally.
Um, and this is something I'lltalk about.
You know, when we talk aboutmanagement, leadership and
dealing with people and students, is that very often people will
want to see quick results andquick gratification, and this is
where the system really reallycomes into its own, because
you've got to believe in thesystem.
Um and so, for example, ifwe're you and sometimes some
(15:03):
dogs don't fit that system,sometimes the handlers don't fit
that system, and what canhappen sometimes is people then
start to divert to differentareas and you've almost then got
like six or seven differentinstructors giving them
different ideas and tips, and soactually you've almost got too
many different systems now builtinto this training method,
(15:25):
which is just confusingeverything, and I think that's
what's really important thatwhen you've got a system, you
know we're not necessarilysaying it's the best system in
the world and it's the onlysystem, but if you stick to the
system, you should then see theresults at the end of it.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Thinking about your think plan, do review of it.
Thinking about your um thinkplan, do review.
And I completely agree.
I love think plan, do reviewand I'm very much, uh, think
through what I want, I plan whatI want, I do it, and then I
look back on it.
I offer my reviews often videobased, so I like watching a
video back and and seeingwhether, for example, doing a
hand touch, suddenly you'llthink you're doing a hand touch,
but when you look you actuallypush your hand in at the dog and
you're like, no, actually I'mjust doing my own nose touch and
(16:04):
I don't really need a nosetouch.
If I needed a nose touch, thenbe fairly simple to explain it,
and I'd be reinforced bychocolate fudge, whereas this is
a dog doing the nose touch, notme.
And so there's those thosetypes of things.
I love watching a video.
I've got an example here.
I was ruining one of myretrieves and I didn't realize I
was ruining it, but I was.
I could see the dog was gettingslower at it and it's because
every time they came in I put myhands on the head and that was
(16:25):
such a great learning like forme.
It was.
It was, it was brave it wasabout nine years ago and it was
brave who I was training andevery time she came in I'd pat
her on the head and as soon as Itook my hands off and started
like like doing that kind of tobe honest, with a toy, however,
(16:49):
she hated you coming in on herand so many people crowd their
dog.
So for me, review I just wantedto add, for our listeners,
video I love reviewing video.
And then, secondly, the smallincremental learning systems.
I really like the smallincremental learning systems as
a I thought in a process, uh,and, and what I would say is
most people and I don't know ifyou see this, but the novice
trainers, the most inexperiencedtrainers, will lump and leap
and take a chance at it, andmost experienced trainers will
(17:09):
really get gritty aboutfoundation or sort of really
reinforcement, because I knowthat what I can reinforce, I
stand a chance of being able toreally teach, and also know that
, um, the most trainable dogsare very susceptible to
reinforcement, which was whatmakes mallies and spaniels so
good at their jobs, because themore susceptible your dog is to
(17:32):
reinforcement, the moretrainable they are.
So for me, I love smallincremental learning systems
because it allows me to reallyget nitty-gritty with the early
detail and then suddenly you canlump and leap and jump around
because you've got such goodsmall incremental learning
systems at the foundation like Ilove that yeah, and I think I
think you've hit the nail on thehead.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
It's building up the foundations in that, really, as
a smaller chunk as you can getis the most beneficial, because
it does then enable you toexperiment with stuff, because
you know if it goes wrong youhaven't got far to go back to
fix it and I'm probably reallyguilty.
I train very often and one ofmy friends, I send videos to him
(18:15):
and he's like no, no, you'vejumped too far ahead.
I love, I'm just going to goand try this Because I know
actually I've built such astrong foundation in terms of
that sales process that, yeah,okay, I'll go and try something
a bit crazy, but knowing if itdoesn't go right, I've still got
the foundation to put the nextlinks in to get me there, and I
(18:39):
think that's really important.
But I go back to that kind ofhuman behavior and human
psychology of trying to alwaysstrive for that instant
gratification and that's why,where you need to be, and lots
of those little chains and lotsof those little links in the
(19:07):
chain will get you from thebottom of the house to the top
of the house.
Um, and yes, every now and againyou might make a leap and get
to the top, but nine times outof ten you'll make a leap, put
your feet on the roof and fallback off again back to the floor
, and I think that's whatexperience tells you.
Is that okay?
There's nothing wrong,necessarily, in trying to make
(19:28):
that leap, but you know you'vebuilt the steps that way.
You're not going to fall backto the floor, you're going to
fall halfway down.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
There are some things that you just don't leap right.
There are some things like forme, I don't leap reinforcement.
I don't chance it that my dogis just going to haphazardly
find reinforcement and it'sgoing to work swimmingly.
You and I work really hard onreinforcement, so I don't know
if you want to talk through whatyou're doing with the pup right
now, dave, because I know thatyou've been working with a
youngster.
It's a dog that will or he's adog, rather, that will go to be
(19:57):
operational and he'll carry outa very important role.
He'll carry out a veryimportant role, um, but what
sort of things have you beenlike, stamping in now,
imprinting in in his, in hisunderstanding of reinforcement,
for example, or, um, any othersmall incremental learning
systems for him?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
yeah, no, I think I think reinforcement's a really
big one because, um, you knowhe's.
He's a dog that has got stacksof motivation and desire, and
that's why I think sometimesit's very easy for people to go
oh, do you know what the dog'sreally good?
He's a dog that has got stacksof motivation and desire, and
that's why I think sometimesit's very easy for people to go,
oh, do you know what the dog'sreally good?
He's got loads of motivation.
I'm not going to play that muchof an emphasis on it, and I see
this a lot, certainly indetection dog training, where
(20:34):
people you know really jump tobuilding the dog's indication
because it looks good forYouTube and Instagram and all
these different things, butactually, fundamentally, the the
dog would have benefited frommore reinforcement and
motivation.
So, yeah, everything I'm doingwith with the young dog I'm
developing at the moment is play, motivation, desire and just
(20:58):
making him even even quickerchasing the toy, even more
determined to hold on to it whenhe's got it.
Um, making him more determinedto get the toy when it's in an
inaccessible place.
So all of these things I'mdoing is building very, in very,
very small incremental steps.
(21:18):
Um, it's just building that.
Yes, he's got motivation anddesire, but I want more, and the
only way I'm going to get moreis by building it, you know, 1%
at a time, um, and making thatreally strong, and once I've got
it to a level that I'm likethrough the roof, then I can
start to do more of the Guccistuff.
And generally what I've found is, um, it's easier to train a dog
(21:42):
if you've built the foundationsproperly than it is to try and
train the dog when you haven'tbuilt the foundations properly.
But what I see a lot of ispeople rush to try and get the
end result because it looks goodon social media or it looks
good in front of their friendsor family or peers or whatever
it might be, but very oftenpeople don't see the hard graft
(22:05):
that's been put in.
You know, you see, usain Boltruns for nine seconds and gets
the plaudits for being thefastest man on the earth, but no
one sees the hours and hoursand hours and hours and hours.
He's worked on building hisquads, building his hamstrings,
building his calves that enablehim to go and actually perform
at the highest level.
And I think it's exactly thesame with dog training.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
And that 1% that you talk about.
Like imagine you get 1% betterevery day.
Or just imagine you get 1%better every month, like it's
still a big percent right, likeit's a big leap.
And then, when you think aboutwhat you just said, I used to be
a school teacher and I the bestlessons would look so seamless
and yet the hours or theplanning or the prep that had
(22:47):
gone into making it look thatgood or be that good or it like
it would be insane.
And yet those were the bestlessons.
But they'd almost like just goand it would all work.
And it's the same as watching adog run an agility course where
they've had all the schooling.
Or it's the same as watchingyou search a hotel room and your
dog indicates perfectly whenyou've maybe searched another I
(23:09):
don't know 500 rooms and this isthe 501.
And your dog knocks and getsthat hit straight away, bang,
boom.
It's watching Linda do aperfect 10 to 15 minute
obedience round.
Like all of us instructors inour own field.
You watch the layers and layers.
It's layers, it's splices andslices, spices, slices, layers
the odd lump where you think youmight get away with it, but
(23:31):
typically not typically layerson layers on layers on layers
and layers and layers.
Is it same?
You know what another goodexample is having a great body.
You watch someone who works outand it doesn't happen quickly,
right, like it's, it's it'sdaily diligence to the cause,
right.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Absolutely.
It's all about habits and youfit the nail on the head.
You know, same with people,same with dog training.
If you, if you build the righthabits and you build them in a
small, incremental way, you willend up with with results.
And, like I say, we're in a a,you know, a society of instant
gratification.
And that's what makes dogtraining difficult is that
people don't want to stick tothe small habits, they don't
(24:13):
want to stick to the smallchains and the small incremental
learning system.
They, they want, you know you'vegot a dog pulling on the lead.
They want to fix it in 20minutes because they've seen a
youtube video of, you know,probably three weeks worth of
trainings put into a 30 second.
You know sales pitch and, and Ithink you know, in the world of
social media, you never reallysee what goes on in the, in the
(24:36):
background, to get the results.
And, like you say, you know youlook at, you know influencers
on on social media who've gotgreat bodies and go to the gym
and work out and they'repersonal trainers, but you don't
see, you know they're not goingto post their whole day of
being in the gym because it'sboring it's boring and and it's
the same as me like when I thinkI've done enough of what I've
(24:56):
been doing and I need to do,like the groundwork and the flat
work.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
That's not the sexy stuff you post.
It's not the sexy stuff youpost.
You post the sexy stuff, butdeep down you're working day in,
day out on the gritty stuff.
So I was just thinking.
Then the instant gratificationI write notes on some of the
things you say so it can pull meup again.
But the instant gratificationworld that we're in makes it
hard sometimes to do the day in,day out, because the quick fix
(25:21):
and the quick results are allout there.
Quick results are all out there.
But actually that layer onlayer on layer on layer and I'm
thinking back to you were therethe day I started teaching
Skittle I decided today I'mgoing to start agility, like
today's the day, like I'd donegroundwork and layers, but
(25:41):
today's the day we're going tostart some agility.
And boom, it was quick.
And I remember you sending me amessage and going flip, that
looks really good.
Good, like that looks reallygood.
And I love that wheninstructors can celebrate other
instructors.
I think that's quite a uniqueworld because there's a lot of
instructors that don't celebrateother instructors.
But in our instructor world,our pro dog trainer, on our pro
dog trainer club, we celebrateother instructors and you're
very, very good at that.
You're very quick to celebrateand I remember you saying to me
(26:03):
that looks amazing and Iremember thinking, god, that is
incredible, like she'sincredible.
But then you think about it andyou think about every day the
diligent training session whereit might be five minutes, it
might be 55 minutes, but it'severy day, dave, and you're
putting some work in towardsthat cause, right yeah, and I
think you've just hit the nailon the head, because I think,
again, some people you know,three minutes of really good
(26:25):
training is worth way more thanan hour of really ill thought
out training.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
And this kind of then links into the abcs again,
because if you've diligentlygone through your abcs to plan
your training session forexample, I think we filmed this
actually when I was doing somestuff with with the pup in terms
of some player motivation, andI think the session probably
lasted what?
Three minutes?
Um, because we set out what wewanted to get, we were specific
(26:54):
around the behavior and then wegot it.
But but actually that threeminutes was part of the wider
small incremental learningsystem that's going to take us
from the bottom of the house tothe top of the house.
So, yeah, absolutely it doesn'thave to be a one hour training
session, it could just be a twoor three minute, really really
well thought out exercise greatexample of this.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
today I was teaching and obviously you and I both
day-to-day operationalinstructors, and I like that
because you are, you're in thegame, you're in the zone, like
you are doing it.
You're not preaching it, you'renot talking the theory of it,
you actually do do it.
So I think that's importantwhen you have anybody that you
work with.
Um, and I was out thereteaching and there was a lady
and we had like a few hours ofum going through all of the
steps of effectively the, thesills, um.
(27:37):
So we were going through thesills of retrieve and wrapping
and all the other games that weplay, and so we were going
through all the steps andbreaking down all the steps.
And the lady said so what?
I'm not going to get my dog outfor a few hours?
And I said no, and when you doget your dog out, you've got
three and a half hours.
And she was like but we're herelike six and a half hours and
(27:57):
I'm like you've got three and ahalf hours with the dogs and
three hours with the people andwe'll divide it, it to be useful
and purposeful, and for me it'sthe opposite.
I want to know exactly what I'mdoing.
I want to know where my toyshould be.
I want to know where my handsshould be.
I want to know, I want to seeand visualize what I'm doing.
I want to watch you do it withBiscuit, and then I want to
watch maybe Cheryl do it withwith her brilliant little dog,
(28:21):
devin, and then I maybe wantwant to watch David do it with
his dog, and then I want to doit with with my dog, because
actually that is what smallincremental learning systems are
about, because it's not justabout the dog learning, it's
also about you knowing what youwant out of the session.
So sometimes you're learningand sometimes you're reviewing
your planning and you'rechanging your plan because you
didn't get it right the firsttime, right, dave?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
yeah, so it's.
It's that spinning plates Ialways say with dog training,
spinning plates and and I thinkyou're right, I think when, when
you're in a group, the learningopportunity is is really strong
.
But but as a double-edged swordit sometimes flips into this
kind of self-gratification piece.
And something I talk a lotabout is, um, you know,
(29:01):
peer-to-peer um groups andpeer-to-peer groups and
peer-to-peer learning is the ASHexperiment, which is where
group conformity starts to creepinto groups, and that can
happen a lot in dog training.
So someone will bring their dogout and it'll be brilliant, and
then all of a sudden everybodywants that their own dog to do
(29:21):
exactly what the dog before themhas done.
And so this is why it's reallyimportant that when you are in
groups, that you have built thislearning environment, because
not everything's going to gobrilliantly, not everything's
going to go disastrously.
There's going to be good bitsand bad bits that everybody can
learn from, and so it is reallyreally important.
(29:43):
Important when you're goingthrough that learning process is
avoiding the group conformitykind of phenomenon, and that's
really difficult because it'spart of human psychology.
And so, yeah, you're absolutelyright, there's probably more
learning is done when the dog isaway and you're able to watch
and pick up from other peopleand see what other people do.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
It's massive, it's massive, it's massive, like
absolutely incredible.
So I think, rounding up onsales while they're important,
having an instructor team aroundyou that supports small
incremental learning systems andnot lumping and not just like
jumping and leaping and testingthings out and trying it for the
hell of it I I think there'sdefinitely a place for
experimental training, but Ithink small incremental learning
systems should be the main sortof fundamental base of where we
(30:34):
take all of our behaviors.
I love think, plan, do andreview.
I love that review is a part ofthat and I think, dave, I want
to leave on the fact that asinstructors both you myself,
linda and all of the PDT team weall celebrate other instructors
, other instructors trying toimprove SILs and ABCs and think,
plan, do, review and studentsultimately having lifelong
(30:57):
impactful learning with theirdocs right.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, definitely.
I think the big thing to it allis to make habits successful.
And to make these smallincremental steps successful is
that you need to be heldaccountable to them and, like
you've just described, whenyou've got people around you
that can hold you accountablewhether it be for dog training
or, you know those fitnessinfluencers actually having
someone to hold you accountableto making sure you're making
(31:24):
those small incremental stepstowards your goal is the most
important thing.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
That's massive, absolutely massive, huge and
really impactful.
So, dave, thank you so much forjoining us for the Sex and the
School podcast.
I know 100% that SILS isincredible and I also know we've
got more to share, coming upreal soon on being an instructor
, being the best instructor youcan be.
Maybe that's a search sent workinstructor, maybe that's an
(31:51):
obedience instructor, maybethat's an agility instructor or
even a life skills andconfidence instructor.
There's lots we can do and,dave, thank you so much for
joining us today.
Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel
podcast.
I'm Lauren Langman.
I'm one of the world's leadingdog trainers and it's my mission
to help owners become theirdog's top priority.
In each episode, you'lldiscover how to gain trust and
communicate with your dog likenever before, creating
unbreakable bonds that make youthe most exciting part of their
world.
Hello and welcome to the Sexand Squirrel podcast, a podcast
(00:31):
that gives you real life, dogtraining and sometimes human
results too.
Today, I'm joined by thewonderful Dave, and Dave and I
are talking sills not windowsills or other sills.
But what type of sills, dave?
Not?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
windowsills or other sills.
But what type of sills, dave?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
We are talking about the small incremental learning
system today.
Now, that sounds maybe not assmall as you're describing.
Do you want to dive a littledeeper for us, because these
guys are here thinking thatthey're going to be sexy in a
squirrel.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
How does this apply?
Yeah, so the small incrementallearning system.
So this forms a really reallykey part of our training
philosophy.
So, in conjunction with theABCs, the small incremental
learning system, or our SILSprocess, gives us the platform
to make sure that when we'retraining, that the dogs are
actually making progress.
(01:27):
And this is what's really,really important, because we
always say it's about progress,not perfection.
And this small incrementallearning system just gives us
that platform to make sure thatwe're constantly challenging the
dog in very, very small chunksand very, very small steps to
actually get better at what wewant them to do.
(01:48):
And so what we always kind ofsay is uh, we take the first s,
which is small.
So what we want to do with ourtraining is to break everything
down into the smallest chunkspossible.
Now, the reason we do that isbecause we want to be able to
build every single individualbehavior and then link them
(02:09):
together.
And so if we then hit a problem, we're not jumping big steps to
try and fix a problem.
We're dealing very much withthe very, very small detail, um,
so that's why we focus on the.
The first s has been small.
Um, incremental is really,really important because, if you
(02:29):
think about a ladder, a laddergoes obviously vertically, and
so that's the same as what wewant to do with our dog training
, because there'd be no pointhaving a ladder trying to get
onto the roof of our house if itwas just horizontal.
And this is one of the thingsthat sometimes fails in dog
training is that we kind ofcarry on doing the same thing
and we kind of tweak a fewthings.
(02:51):
That makes us think, it makesthe dog think, but it doesn't
actually get us anywhere.
It doesn't actually makeanything incrementally different
.
We're just kind of doingdifferent things.
So what we always say is weneed to think about training
through our training ladder andgo from the bottom of the ladder
to the top of the ladder inorder for us to reach the top of
(03:12):
the house.
And this is why it's really,really important that the steps
are really small, because ifyou've got that ladder that's
going vertically and you'regoing from a to z, you need to
be able to put all the otherletters in the alphabet into
those slots, because youwouldn't be able to jump from a
to z.
You couldn't go from the groundfloor to the roof in one leap.
(03:34):
Similarly, you probablycouldn't go from the ground
floor to the roof in four leaps,and so we need to think about
training as that ladder and makeit incrementally more
challenging for the dog in orderto get us to our end result.
And then we talk about the L,which is learning, and this is
something I'm really passionateabout.
(03:55):
So learning is learning foreverybody.
So when we're training, we needto make sure that not just the
dog is learning.
So when we're training, we needto make sure that not just the
dog is learning, but actuallythe owner's learning or the
instructor's learning, and we'reall learning collectively.
And this is why it's great whenwe train in groups and we do,
you know, retreats and we dogroup sessions is that
(04:18):
everybody's learning fromeverybody else's experiences,
and so when we adopt the SILSprocess, it really focuses on
that learning aspect.
So, yes, we need to make surethe dog is learning the skills
they need, but actually we'realso empowering the owner to
learn and actually, if I'minstructing or we've got
instructors instructing, thatthey need to be learning at the
(04:40):
same time, because it's notalways the dog that is going to
do all the learning.
So I know that when I set uptraining exercises and when
we're doing retreats and we'redoing classes, that I'm actually
going to go away from thatsession learning something from
my students and learningsomething from the dogs that
I've worked with.
So it's really important whenwe adopt the SILS process that
(05:02):
that learning is what reallykind of intertwines everything
together and then Dave reallyquickly what you say with
learning.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
I think this is really massive and impactful
that we always have more tolearn 100% as an instructor, as
a dog handler, as a dog handler,as a competitive sports handler
.
I've been in dogs for 25 yearsprobably a little bit longer,
and that's a long time that'sway more than half of my life
(05:34):
and so actually the fact thatI'm an eager beaver saying I
still need to learn a lot moreand I'm still really open to
learning a lot more.
I think that's where, lookingat a lot of dog handlers and dog
people, they're not alwaysacknowledging that openly and I
think it's really important weacknowledge and leave ourselves
open to go I need to do thatcourse, or I need to head on to
(05:54):
some learning here, or actuallyI lack this skill, or actually
that's an area I need to skillup.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I mean, the day there's someonethat knows everything there is
to know about dogs is the daythat person needs to pack up and
stop, because you never stoplearning and you'll never be in
a position where, you know, I'ma big advocate of, of learning
um.
I've been lucky enough to learnfrom some absolutely fantastic
people and that's why, you know,when we do these podcasts, it's
(06:33):
it's our way of also sharingthat knowledge and and helping
other people learn um, because Ithink everybody learns from
each other and and whetheryou're a person with you know,
20 years experience, or orsomebody just starting out, you
know with with dogs, that we canstill learn from the person
just starting out with dogs,because sometimes we forget what
(06:54):
it's like to be that personstarting out with dogs.
You know, I've been in thisindustry for you know over two
decades, and you forgetsometimes what it's like to be
that brand new kid on the blockthat doesn't really know
anything, and so like that.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I think that's probably sometimes very humbling
, isn't it to be in thatposition and to realize quite
how that position is and feelslike it's a very humbling space
to sit and work, and it's a veryhumbling space to, to, to, to
be yeah, I think it's greatbecause and you know the course
is, you know we run a scentretreat, didn't we recently?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
and, um, I'm on the whatsapp group and the guys are
fantastic.
They're coming with all thesedifferent creative ideas of
building scent walls with drainpipes and all kinds of like.
Really great um, innovations.
And I'm looking at thesepictures coming and going god,
that's a great idea.
I'm going to steal that for myscent detection.
Dog training.
(07:50):
So I think, as I say, it reallyunderpins everything about, you
know, dogs and dog training isthat everybody's got something
to learn.
Um, and that's what's reallyimportant in the sales process
is, um, you know, certainly whenwe're running instructor
courses and train the trainercourses, is we really impress
(08:10):
upon this fact that just becauseyou're an instructor doesn't
mean to say you're not going tolearn from your students?
Um, and certainly in theworking dog capacity, very often
your students are the doghandlers that are still
operational and and out workingon the street, and so, actually,
you're learning loads and loadsof things from them to enable
(08:32):
you to make the dogs better andmake the handlers better
operationally, because withoutthat learning about what they're
going through day to day,because that's ever evolving,
then you're never going to bereally on top of your game.
And I think that's what'sreally important when you're an
instructor is you've really gotto tune into your students and
learn from them to enable you toput your skills in place to
(08:55):
make everybody better.
So, yeah, everybody has tolearn through the SILS process.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
So small incremental learning systems, let's talk.
Learning systems, let's talk uh, give me a bigger, give me a
dog training behavior, where youthink small sales, they, small
incremental learning systems,they really matter, or I mean I
get they matter everywhere.
But give me an example, let's.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Let's have something tangible that people can think
about and then maybe sometangible examples that go
alongside dave yeah, I think I'd, certainly if you use a working
dog capacity and I like to usebiting dogs that go out and
apprehend people, um.
So if you think about when wefirst start teaching a dog um,
you know, to bite the end goalis that they're able to run down
(09:37):
a high street and take out theperson that's running away with
a machete, for example, um.
But it takes a lot of steps toget to that process where you
know the dog's opening the mouthwide enough to be able to get
the mouth around the arm or theshoulder or whatever it might be
.
You've got the dog being fastenough to be able to chase after
(09:58):
the person running away.
You've got the dog being ableto identify and and see the
person running away.
So there's lots and lots ofthings that build into this end
result and this is why the smallincremental learning system is
really important, because thefirst thing we need to do, you
know, potentially, is actuallyget the dog to open its mouth
properly to bite a small bitetug, and that sometimes starts
(10:21):
when the puppy is, you know,nine weeks old for some training
.
So actually teaching the dog toopen its mouth and bite
properly, with the rightmechanics is is really important
.
So we'd start off on somethinglike a piece of sheepskin um.
Then we'd move to, um, a smallkind of sausage bite roll, then
(10:43):
we'd move on to a small wedgeand a bigger wedge, and a bigger
wedge, and a sleeve and a bitesuit and no bite suit, and so
all of these different steps andstages need to be built in the
right way, just checking here.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
When you say no bite suit, you do mean the criminal
by this point, right.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
You don't practice with no bite suit on well, we,
we have been known to wrapourselves in newspaper or
Newspaper what kind ofprotection is a newspaper going
to give you?
Well, you'd only do it for very,very novice dogs and let them
get on and off as quickly aspossible.
(11:19):
Thankfully, there's some reallygood innovative products in the
marketplace now.
But yes, you know, and this iswhat I say, this is what is
really, this is what it's reallyimportant that you've built
these steps incrementally to, toprepare the dog for the real
life environment.
And that's, you know, a reallyextreme example.
But, um, you know things likeyou.
(11:41):
Let's translate it into the petdog world.
So, for example, um, you know,if you've got a dog, I've got
one here.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
So on my screen, here I've got a shaped retrieve and
here oh, there you go here aremy 10 steps, or my 12 steps of a
shaped retrieve from level oneat power up your nose touch.
Level two introduce the objectand encourage the nose touch or
interaction.
Level three mouth around theobject.
Level four brief hold or grip,taking use or making use of
(12:09):
opposition reflex.
Level five add duration.
Level six pick up the object.
Level seven carry duration onobject.
Level eight send out for theobject and bring back.
Level nine get a grittyretrieve.
Level 10 add in differentobjects.
Level 11 generalize and proofand then could add the retrieve
into a box or tidy toys awayoption.
(12:30):
So we've gone like through allthe steps that we would perfect
and that's part of games club.
So, part of games club, we'vegot all of the tracks.
So within the tracks you mightdo a retrieve or a wrap.
It will take you all throughthe levels and will take you up
through the levels.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
So that's part of that track yeah, and I think I
think this is what's really key,and a lot of stuff with dog
training is, um, you know, Ialways say you know we're
talking about tracking andmantrailing and all these things
is they're all kind of wordsthat describe the same thing and
actually what?
What you've just um, you know,provided an example of is that
the sales process is really it'sactually in process with
(13:04):
everybody a lot of the time, andsometimes it's just putting the
words and the context aroundthat People go.
Oh yeah, I kind of understandwhere this is going now.
And it's very similar when wetalk about the ABCs.
When we actually go through ourkind of lessons and our
seminars on the ABCs, you startto see people go oh yeah, I
actually understand this.
And now you can see where I'mactually doing a lot of this
(13:26):
stuff, um, already.
And so, exactly like you'vedescribed, when we certainly
when we're running courses andwe're we're doing a lot of this
sales, um, kind of learning andtraining, is that people start
it's almost like the penny dropsand people go oh yeah, I can
kind of understand, um, wherethis is is coming.
But what's really important isthat we want it to be at the
(13:49):
forefront of everything we do,and I think very often we do
stuff without really thinking,and I always say we think, plan,
do review, and so part of thesales process is kind of cutting
across all of those think, plan, do review stages, because
(14:09):
we're making it incremental,we're learning, but there has to
be a system in place as well.
Um and I think that's the reallykey thing very often what I see
is people chopping and changingfrom different methods, so
we're very quick to dismisssomething if we don't get
instant gratification andinstant results, not not just in
(14:31):
dog training, but but in lifegenerally.
Um, and this is something I'lltalk about.
You know, when we talk aboutmanagement, leadership and
dealing with people and students, is that very often people will
want to see quick results andquick gratification, and this is
where the system really reallycomes into its own, because
you've got to believe in thesystem.
Um and so, for example, ifwe're you and sometimes some
(15:03):
dogs don't fit that system,sometimes the handlers don't fit
that system, and what canhappen sometimes is people then
start to divert to differentareas and you've almost then got
like six or seven differentinstructors giving them
different ideas and tips, and soactually you've almost got too
many different systems now builtinto this training method,
(15:25):
which is just confusingeverything, and I think that's
what's really important thatwhen you've got a system, you
know we're not necessarilysaying it's the best system in
the world and it's the onlysystem, but if you stick to the
system, you should then see theresults at the end of it.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Thinking about your think plan, do review of it.
Thinking about your um thinkplan, do review.
And I completely agree.
I love think plan, do reviewand I'm very much, uh, think
through what I want, I plan whatI want, I do it, and then I
look back on it.
I offer my reviews often videobased, so I like watching a
video back and and seeingwhether, for example, doing a
hand touch, suddenly you'llthink you're doing a hand touch,
but when you look you actuallypush your hand in at the dog and
you're like, no, actually I'mjust doing my own nose touch and
(16:04):
I don't really need a nosetouch.
If I needed a nose touch, thenbe fairly simple to explain it,
and I'd be reinforced bychocolate fudge, whereas this is
a dog doing the nose touch, notme.
And so there's those thosetypes of things.
I love watching a video.
I've got an example here.
I was ruining one of myretrieves and I didn't realize I
was ruining it, but I was.
I could see the dog was gettingslower at it and it's because
every time they came in I put myhands on the head and that was
(16:25):
such a great learning like forme.
It was.
It was, it was brave it wasabout nine years ago and it was
brave who I was training andevery time she came in I'd pat
her on the head and as soon as Itook my hands off and started
like like doing that kind of tobe honest, with a toy, however,
(16:49):
she hated you coming in on herand so many people crowd their
dog.
So for me, review I just wantedto add, for our listeners,
video I love reviewing video.
And then, secondly, the smallincremental learning systems.
I really like the smallincremental learning systems as
a I thought in a process, uh,and, and what I would say is
most people and I don't know ifyou see this, but the novice
trainers, the most inexperiencedtrainers, will lump and leap
and take a chance at it, andmost experienced trainers will
(17:09):
really get gritty aboutfoundation or sort of really
reinforcement, because I knowthat what I can reinforce, I
stand a chance of being able toreally teach, and also know that
, um, the most trainable dogsare very susceptible to
reinforcement, which was whatmakes mallies and spaniels so
good at their jobs, because themore susceptible your dog is to
(17:32):
reinforcement, the moretrainable they are.
So for me, I love smallincremental learning systems
because it allows me to reallyget nitty-gritty with the early
detail and then suddenly you canlump and leap and jump around
because you've got such goodsmall incremental learning
systems at the foundation like Ilove that yeah, and I think I
think you've hit the nail on thehead.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
It's building up the foundations in that, really, as
a smaller chunk as you can getis the most beneficial, because
it does then enable you toexperiment with stuff, because
you know if it goes wrong youhaven't got far to go back to
fix it and I'm probably reallyguilty.
I train very often and one ofmy friends, I send videos to him
(18:15):
and he's like no, no, you'vejumped too far ahead.
I love, I'm just going to goand try this Because I know
actually I've built such astrong foundation in terms of
that sales process that, yeah,okay, I'll go and try something
a bit crazy, but knowing if itdoesn't go right, I've still got
the foundation to put the nextlinks in to get me there, and I
(18:39):
think that's really important.
But I go back to that kind ofhuman behavior and human
psychology of trying to alwaysstrive for that instant
gratification and that's why,where you need to be, and lots
of those little chains and lotsof those little links in the
(19:07):
chain will get you from thebottom of the house to the top
of the house.
Um, and yes, every now and againyou might make a leap and get
to the top, but nine times outof ten you'll make a leap, put
your feet on the roof and fallback off again back to the floor
, and I think that's whatexperience tells you.
Is that okay?
There's nothing wrong,necessarily, in trying to make
(19:28):
that leap, but you know you'vebuilt the steps that way.
You're not going to fall backto the floor, you're going to
fall halfway down.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
There are some things that you just don't leap right.
There are some things like forme, I don't leap reinforcement.
I don't chance it that my dogis just going to haphazardly
find reinforcement and it'sgoing to work swimmingly.
You and I work really hard onreinforcement, so I don't know
if you want to talk through whatyou're doing with the pup right
now, dave, because I know thatyou've been working with a
youngster.
It's a dog that will or he's adog, rather, that will go to be
(19:57):
operational and he'll carry outa very important role.
He'll carry out a veryimportant role, um, but what
sort of things have you beenlike, stamping in now,
imprinting in in his, in hisunderstanding of reinforcement,
for example, or, um, any othersmall incremental learning
systems for him?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
yeah, no, I think I think reinforcement's a really
big one because, um, you knowhe's.
He's a dog that has got stacksof motivation and desire, and
that's why I think sometimesit's very easy for people to go
oh, do you know what the dog'sreally good?
He's a dog that has got stacksof motivation and desire, and
that's why I think sometimesit's very easy for people to go,
oh, do you know what the dog'sreally good?
He's got loads of motivation.
I'm not going to play that muchof an emphasis on it, and I see
this a lot, certainly indetection dog training, where
(20:34):
people you know really jump tobuilding the dog's indication
because it looks good forYouTube and Instagram and all
these different things, butactually, fundamentally, the the
dog would have benefited frommore reinforcement and
motivation.
So, yeah, everything I'm doingwith with the young dog I'm
developing at the moment is play, motivation, desire and just
(20:58):
making him even even quickerchasing the toy, even more
determined to hold on to it whenhe's got it.
Um, making him more determinedto get the toy when it's in an
inaccessible place.
So all of these things I'mdoing is building very, in very,
very small incremental steps.
(21:18):
Um, it's just building that.
Yes, he's got motivation anddesire, but I want more, and the
only way I'm going to get moreis by building it, you know, 1%
at a time, um, and making thatreally strong, and once I've got
it to a level that I'm likethrough the roof, then I can
start to do more of the Guccistuff.
And generally what I've found is, um, it's easier to train a dog
(21:42):
if you've built the foundationsproperly than it is to try and
train the dog when you haven'tbuilt the foundations properly.
But what I see a lot of ispeople rush to try and get the
end result because it looks goodon social media or it looks
good in front of their friendsor family or peers or whatever
it might be, but very oftenpeople don't see the hard graft
(22:05):
that's been put in.
You know, you see, usain Boltruns for nine seconds and gets
the plaudits for being thefastest man on the earth, but no
one sees the hours and hoursand hours and hours and hours.
He's worked on building hisquads, building his hamstrings,
building his calves that enablehim to go and actually perform
at the highest level.
And I think it's exactly thesame with dog training.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
And that 1% that you talk about.
Like imagine you get 1% betterevery day.
Or just imagine you get 1%better every month, like it's
still a big percent right, likeit's a big leap.
And then, when you think aboutwhat you just said, I used to be
a school teacher and I the bestlessons would look so seamless
and yet the hours or theplanning or the prep that had
(22:47):
gone into making it look thatgood or be that good or it like
it would be insane.
And yet those were the bestlessons.
But they'd almost like just goand it would all work.
And it's the same as watching adog run an agility course where
they've had all the schooling.
Or it's the same as watchingyou search a hotel room and your
dog indicates perfectly whenyou've maybe searched another I
(23:09):
don't know 500 rooms and this isthe 501.
And your dog knocks and getsthat hit straight away, bang,
boom.
It's watching Linda do aperfect 10 to 15 minute
obedience round.
Like all of us instructors inour own field.
You watch the layers and layers.
It's layers, it's splices andslices, spices, slices, layers
the odd lump where you think youmight get away with it, but
(23:31):
typically not typically layerson layers on layers on layers
and layers and layers.
Is it same?
You know what another goodexample is having a great body.
You watch someone who works outand it doesn't happen quickly,
right, like it's, it's it'sdaily diligence to the cause,
right.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Absolutely.
It's all about habits and youfit the nail on the head.
You know, same with people,same with dog training.
If you, if you build the righthabits and you build them in a
small, incremental way, you willend up with with results.
And, like I say, we're in a a,you know, a society of instant
gratification.
And that's what makes dogtraining difficult is that
people don't want to stick tothe small habits, they don't
(24:13):
want to stick to the smallchains and the small incremental
learning system.
They, they want, you know you'vegot a dog pulling on the lead.
They want to fix it in 20minutes because they've seen a
youtube video of, you know,probably three weeks worth of
trainings put into a 30 second.
You know sales pitch and, and Ithink you know, in the world of
social media, you never reallysee what goes on in the, in the
(24:36):
background, to get the results.
And, like you say, you know youlook at, you know influencers
on on social media who've gotgreat bodies and go to the gym
and work out and they'repersonal trainers, but you don't
see, you know they're not goingto post their whole day of
being in the gym because it'sboring it's boring and and it's
the same as me like when I thinkI've done enough of what I've
(24:56):
been doing and I need to do,like the groundwork and the flat
work.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
That's not the sexy stuff you post.
It's not the sexy stuff youpost.
You post the sexy stuff, butdeep down you're working day in,
day out on the gritty stuff.
So I was just thinking.
Then the instant gratificationI write notes on some of the
things you say so it can pull meup again.
But the instant gratificationworld that we're in makes it
hard sometimes to do the day in,day out, because the quick fix
(25:21):
and the quick results are allout there.
Quick results are all out there.
But actually that layer onlayer on layer on layer and I'm
thinking back to you were therethe day I started teaching
Skittle I decided today I'mgoing to start agility, like
today's the day, like I'd donegroundwork and layers, but
(25:41):
today's the day we're going tostart some agility.
And boom, it was quick.
And I remember you sending me amessage and going flip, that
looks really good.
Good, like that looks reallygood.
And I love that wheninstructors can celebrate other
instructors.
I think that's quite a uniqueworld because there's a lot of
instructors that don't celebrateother instructors.
But in our instructor world,our pro dog trainer, on our pro
dog trainer club, we celebrateother instructors and you're
very, very good at that.
You're very quick to celebrateand I remember you saying to me
(26:03):
that looks amazing and Iremember thinking, god, that is
incredible, like she'sincredible.
But then you think about it andyou think about every day the
diligent training session whereit might be five minutes, it
might be 55 minutes, but it'severy day, dave, and you're
putting some work in towardsthat cause, right yeah, and I
think you've just hit the nailon the head, because I think,
again, some people you know,three minutes of really good
(26:25):
training is worth way more thanan hour of really ill thought
out training.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
And this kind of then links into the abcs again,
because if you've diligentlygone through your abcs to plan
your training session forexample, I think we filmed this
actually when I was doing somestuff with with the pup in terms
of some player motivation, andI think the session probably
lasted what?
Three minutes?
Um, because we set out what wewanted to get, we were specific
(26:54):
around the behavior and then wegot it.
But but actually that threeminutes was part of the wider
small incremental learningsystem that's going to take us
from the bottom of the house tothe top of the house.
So, yeah, absolutely it doesn'thave to be a one hour training
session, it could just be a twoor three minute, really really
well thought out exercise greatexample of this.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
today I was teaching and obviously you and I both
day-to-day operationalinstructors, and I like that
because you are, you're in thegame, you're in the zone, like
you are doing it.
You're not preaching it, you'renot talking the theory of it,
you actually do do it.
So I think that's importantwhen you have anybody that you
work with.
Um, and I was out thereteaching and there was a lady
and we had like a few hours ofum going through all of the
steps of effectively the, thesills, um.
(27:37):
So we were going through thesills of retrieve and wrapping
and all the other games that weplay, and so we were going
through all the steps andbreaking down all the steps.
And the lady said so what?
I'm not going to get my dog outfor a few hours?
And I said no, and when you doget your dog out, you've got
three and a half hours.
And she was like but we're herelike six and a half hours and
(27:57):
I'm like you've got three and ahalf hours with the dogs and
three hours with the people andwe'll divide it, it to be useful
and purposeful, and for me it'sthe opposite.
I want to know exactly what I'mdoing.
I want to know where my toyshould be.
I want to know where my handsshould be.
I want to know, I want to seeand visualize what I'm doing.
I want to watch you do it withBiscuit, and then I want to
watch maybe Cheryl do it withwith her brilliant little dog,
(28:21):
devin, and then I maybe wantwant to watch David do it with
his dog, and then I want to doit with with my dog, because
actually that is what smallincremental learning systems are
about, because it's not justabout the dog learning, it's
also about you knowing what youwant out of the session.
So sometimes you're learningand sometimes you're reviewing
your planning and you'rechanging your plan because you
didn't get it right the firsttime, right, dave?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
yeah, so it's.
It's that spinning plates Ialways say with dog training,
spinning plates and and I thinkyou're right, I think when, when
you're in a group, the learningopportunity is is really strong
.
But but as a double-edged swordit sometimes flips into this
kind of self-gratification piece.
And something I talk a lotabout is, um, you know,
(29:01):
peer-to-peer um groups andpeer-to-peer groups and
peer-to-peer learning is the ASHexperiment, which is where
group conformity starts to creepinto groups, and that can
happen a lot in dog training.
So someone will bring their dogout and it'll be brilliant, and
then all of a sudden everybodywants that their own dog to do
(29:21):
exactly what the dog before themhas done.
And so this is why it's reallyimportant that when you are in
groups, that you have built thislearning environment, because
not everything's going to gobrilliantly, not everything's
going to go disastrously.
There's going to be good bitsand bad bits that everybody can
learn from, and so it is reallyreally important.
(29:43):
Important when you're goingthrough that learning process is
avoiding the group conformitykind of phenomenon, and that's
really difficult because it'spart of human psychology.
And so, yeah, you're absolutelyright, there's probably more
learning is done when the dog isaway and you're able to watch
and pick up from other peopleand see what other people do.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
It's massive, it's massive, it's massive, like
absolutely incredible.
So I think, rounding up onsales while they're important,
having an instructor team aroundyou that supports small
incremental learning systems andnot lumping and not just like
jumping and leaping and testingthings out and trying it for the
hell of it I I think there'sdefinitely a place for
experimental training, but Ithink small incremental learning
systems should be the main sortof fundamental base of where we
(30:34):
take all of our behaviors.
I love think, plan, do andreview.
I love that review is a part ofthat and I think, dave, I want
to leave on the fact that asinstructors both you myself,
linda and all of the PDT team weall celebrate other instructors
, other instructors trying toimprove SILs and ABCs and think,
plan, do, review and studentsultimately having lifelong
(30:57):
impactful learning with theirdocs right.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, definitely.
I think the big thing to it allis to make habits successful.
And to make these smallincremental steps successful is
that you need to be heldaccountable to them and, like
you've just described, whenyou've got people around you
that can hold you accountablewhether it be for dog training
or, you know those fitnessinfluencers actually having
someone to hold you accountableto making sure you're making
(31:24):
those small incremental stepstowards your goal is the most
important thing.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
That's massive, absolutely massive, huge and
really impactful.
So, dave, thank you so much forjoining us for the Sex and the
School podcast.
I know 100% that SILS isincredible and I also know we've
got more to share, coming upreal soon on being an instructor
, being the best instructor youcan be.
Maybe that's a search sent workinstructor, maybe that's an
(31:51):
obedience instructor, maybethat's an agility instructor or
even a life skills andconfidence instructor.
There's lots we can do and,dave, thank you so much for
joining us today.
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