June 24, 2025 • 37 mins
Ever wondered why your dog performs perfectly at home but seems to forget everything when you're out in public? The secret might lie in understanding the ABCs of dog training.
Dave, a veteran police dog trainer with over two decades of experience, breaks down this deceptively simple framework that has revolutionized how professionals approach dog training. Rather than focusing solely on correcting behaviors, the ABC model—Antecedent, Behavior, Consequence—provides multiple leverage points to create lasting change in your dog's responses.
The conversation dives deep into the "three A's" that precede any behavior: Arousal (your dog's energy level), Area (the training environment), and Actions (what you and others are doing). Through vivid examples from both high-stakes police work and everyday training scenarios, Dave illustrates how manipulating these elements can transform seemingly stubborn behavioral issues without resorting to punishment.
One particularly fascinating insight reveals how what we perceive as punishment might actually be reinforcing to our dogs—like the Malinois who fights harder against the leash correction because the struggle itself is rewarding. This perspective shift helps explain why some training approaches backfire despite our best intentions.
Whether you're working with a high-drive working dog or a family pet, understanding this framework empowers you to troubleshoot training challenges more effectively. By becoming aware of how these elements interact, you'll gain new tools to set your dog up for success rather than repeatedly correcting failures.
Ready to transform your approach to dog training? Listen now and discover why changing what happens before a behavior often matters more than what happens after it. Share your own training breakthrough moments with us and join the conversation!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel
podcast.
I'm Lauren Langman.
I'm one of the world's leadingdog trainers and it's my mission
to help owners become theirdog's top priority.
In each episode, you'lldiscover how to gain trust and
communicate with your dog likenever before, creating
unbreakable bonds that make youthe most exciting part of their
world.
Welcome to the Sex and theSquirrel podcast, the podcast
(00:31):
that gives you real life, dogtraining and sometimes human
results too.
Now, today I'm joined by thewonderful Dave and I've been
told we're learning our ABCs andI have to say I see this as
maybe a step back, or maybe astep where I'm going to really
reflect on my use of language ormaybe it's my spelling, or
maybe it's.
I kind of want to sing thatsong, the whole like ABC song,
(00:53):
and maybe go from there.
But tell me, dave, what onearth are the ABCs of dog
training?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, we're definitely not going back to
nursery, so don't worry too muchabout that, and I definitely
won't get you singing, because Iknow what that's like as well.
So let's stick to dog training.
So yeah, the ABCs is and foryou know, people who've seen me
speak and trained with me beforewill know I place a great
(01:23):
emphasis on the ABCs of dogtraining and it's something that
I've picked up in, you know, a20-year career working with
working dogs, and I was gratefulfor the people who shared kind
of information with me and I'vebeen able to adapt that to
basically simplify a little bitthe ABCs, to make it more kind
(01:46):
of understandable for doghandlers, dog owners, and it was
something that underpinned alot of our train, the trainer
courses and future instructorcourses.
So it's essentially theantecedent behavior consequence
model, but we like to break itdown and keep it simple.
Um, because that's the theethos of my training is uh,
(02:08):
let's just keep it simple and Ilove I think I say it so
frequently go on your training.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Training is it's always, I like to hear in day to
day.
Training is simple but not easy, like it really is, like such a
great way, um to put it, isn'tit?
Because actually it really is.
Training is very simple, isn'tit?
But it is.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
It is at times, difficult yeah, 100, and I think
this you know that's a greatsaying I stole off um another
world renowned dog trainer aswell, and I think this is what's
great about dog training is wecan all take things from
different people.
We can all take things, uh, andlearn from everybody, and
what's really important is thatyou, you take all of this
information and um skills thatyou build up over time and
(02:54):
actually create something that'sa little bit unique to to you,
because ultimately, it's youthat's delivering the training
to, to either dogs, handlers, um, or certainly in my case, when
we were doing instructor coursesthat you need to be able to put
your own spin on things to makeyourself authentic but actually
make it understandable for thepeople or the dogs that you're
(03:15):
working with in front of you.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
And that is vital, isn't it?
If the people that are in frontof you, they don't understand
it, then it's not veryaccessible, which means that the
long-term result of what you'redoing isn't going to get
anywhere, like it's just notgoing to get to where you want
it to to go.
So I think that's really umgreat great learning.
If it's not tangible, you mightthink you're training dogs, but
if you're not able to train thehandler, then you're not really
going to ever get to the dogyeah, 100.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
And ultimately you, in my working dog capacity as an
instructor, you know you onlyspend short amounts of time with
the students who are the doghandlers and ultimately you've
got to be able to impart as muchknowledge as you can onto them
in the simplest way as you can,so that they can go away and you
know practice themselves andultimately, they're the ones
(04:02):
training their dogs and workingtheir dogs day in, day out.
So, yeah, I like to keep,although it's a little bit
behaviorally and a little bitbehavior based and is backed up
by science.
Um, you know, the way we talkabout the abcs and the way we
implement them is actuallyunderpins everything we do with
dogs.
Um, and and that's what's key,I think, is is making it simple,
(04:25):
making it understandable, sothat those people who are taking
on board the information can goaway and do it themselves.
And I think that's the key tobe a really good instructor and
a really good trainer is toactually empower people to go
and, you know, experience thingsthemselves and develop their
own dogs and so let's dive intothese ab.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
No, I'm not going to say um these abcs.
Uh, so we've talked antecedentbehavior consequence.
So please, please, please,please, please, enlighten sex in
the squirrel podcast listeners.
What on earth are you talkingabout?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
well, as I say, I like to keep things simple.
So, um, we we start off whenwe're talking about the abcs and
we start off with the b?
Um because behavior is isreally important.
So when we're teaching the abcs, we focus on making sure that
we're really specific aroundwhat it is we're talking about,
um, and I do lots of um kind ofpresentations and seminars on
(05:24):
communication and leadership,which also falls into the ABCs,
not just about dog training.
And I always say to people,when we're describing something,
and in this case when we'redescribing dog behavior, we
really need to be specificaround what it is we're actually
describing and exactly whatwe're expecting or not expecting
the dog to do.
(05:45):
So it's really important thatwe are specific around the
behavior.
So that's the starting point ofof kind of the abcs.
And then when we talk about thea's, we're talking about
antecedents.
So um, you know, for a lot ofpeople antecedents could seem
quite a complicated word orquite a behaviorally type word.
(06:06):
But we're just going to make itreally simple and ultimately,
an antecedent is something thathappens before a behavior.
So when we're describingantecedents, there can be
hundreds, if not thousands, ofantecedents to behavior, and
this is where it can start toget a little bit heavy and a
little bit, um, you know,complex from a behavior
(06:27):
perspective.
But what I like to do is justfocus on three and I call them
the three a's.
So the three a's within theantecedents are arousal area and
actions, and what I've found,um having worked in this
industry for, you know, close totwo decades, is, generally
(06:48):
speaking now I know this is avery general statement, but
generally speaking, when we'relooking at a dog's behavior,
very often, certainly in theworking dog community you could
probably say those three A's areone of the main reasons why the
dog's behavior is eithergetting us results or holding us
(07:09):
back from results, um, and veryoften I see the dog's arousal
level is too high.
Um, or the dog's arousal levelis too low, um, the area we're
training in is a really big one.
So, again, without getting toocomplex, but if the dog
constantly goes to an area whereit's doing bite work and then
all of a sudden we take it tothe same area and expect it to
(07:31):
do, you know, a really niceround of heel work in the
behavior acquisition stage justthat in my head.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I was like god, I can't imagine going from like
crazed, possessed bite work tosuper, like neat heel work, like
it's a lot of an ask.
And it's funny I'm thinkingthat because today I was with
our lovely friend Linda.
Dave, when I work with you andwhen I work with Linda, both top
instructors in your field and Iobviously teach um instructors
all over the world, I teachagility, obviously as a, as a
top game um, but alsoinstructors, just life skills
(07:59):
and actually day in, day out andyou obviously you're sent and
real expertise areas, um,throughout really all of your
operational dogs.
And then obviously linda withher um obedience, actually all
of these being major topics.
Now her dog today wasstruggling slightly.
We had a, we had a student inthe group who who liked to look
at her a lot and the student wasvery intense with the way she
was looking and so when ourstudent was intensely looking at
(08:20):
the dog, the dog didn't like it.
The dog got a bit quirky, to behonest, and so straight away
with linda we were like right,go play with some toy over there
.
So go in a distance and playwith the toy and like, go over
somewhere else and play and beexciting and do other things.
What we don't want you to do,and we really don't want you to
do in this environment, isactually let her focus on that.
(08:41):
So we don't want her to focuson the fact she's scared of the
person staring her or the factthat she's um worried and like
let's not give her a long time,let's change the arousal, change
your house.
She's actually too low.
So the reason she's too low andwe need to actually take her
out of that and make her alittle bit more like reactive
with her own and not so aware ofthe environment and low-key
stuff going on yeah, and that'swhat we find.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Actually, all these three a's interlink with each
other.
So the third one, when we'retalking about actions, is, you
know, the actions of the handler, the actions of the instructor,
the actions of the dogs around,um, and again, generally
speaking, if you know, certainlyin the police dog world, we
could have, you know, five orsix handlers on a training
course all on the same vantogether, um, and so there's
(09:23):
lots of kind of complexitiesaround who's doing what in a
training exercise, um, but, likeI say, generally speaking, what
I found is one of those threethings or a mixture of those
three things.
If we alter them and wemanipulate them and we change
them in training, we canactually get the behavior we're
specifically looking for fromour dogs.
(09:44):
Um.
But what is also reallyinteresting is that, you know,
science tells us, um, theantecedent behavior consequence
model works across the vastmajority of living organisms.
So you think um and I use thisexample a lot If I take my
eight-year-old son to WackyWarehouse and I sit at a table
(10:06):
right next to where all theother kids playing in the ball
pit, and obviously the actionsof all those other children and
(10:27):
then also the actions of me as a, as a parent, I'll start to get
stressed because he's notbehaving and all of these things
now start to impact on hisbehavior.
So, as I say it it's.
It's something I actually use,not just in dog training but in
that wider kind of leadershipand people management space,
because it's really really um,important, um.
(10:48):
But when you start to break itdown in the way we've just
described and we're only kind ofskimming the surface, I hope
people can start to see I've gota problem with my dog.
Maybe if I alter the dog'sarousal, or maybe if we change
the area we're training in, ormaybe if I'm a bit more relaxed
as a handler, then I'm going toget a better outcome and I'm
(11:09):
going to be more likely to getthat specific behavior I'm
looking for.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
So give us an example , dave and myself and our
listeners here at Sex in Schoolpodcast.
Give us an example of maybesomething in dog training where
the arousal, the area or theactions have been potentially
just not quite right for the dogand that something you might
have changed to get a betteroutcome yeah, I think there's
some.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
There's some really good um examples and certainly,
you know, working with umMalinois, german Shepherds in in
bite work is probably the thebiggest one because very often,
um, you know, the dogs are veryaroused once the they see a bite
suit or a bite sleeve orsomething like that.
So you know lots of things uhcan happen.
(11:54):
So if you always do for example, we always go to the same field
to do bite work, as I say whathappens is the dog.
You know we pull up onto thecar park and the dog already
knows where we are, he alreadyhas an expectation that he's
going to do bike work and that'sthen starting to increase his
arousal before he's even got outof the van.
And so, for example, if we weresetting up an exercise where I
(12:18):
don't know we were trying to geta better leave or a better out
off the bite suit, then actuallyif we go to the same place
where the dog gets over arousedand the dog knows it's doing
bite work, and then the handlergets stressed because he knows
the dog never lets go of thebite suit when we're at this
particular area, quite quicklyyou can alter a dog's behavior
(12:40):
simply by do you know what?
Actually let's go to somewherecompletely new.
Let let's um, you know, calmthe dog down before it does some
bite work by doing some heelwork around the field, um, and
in turn that then also altersthe handler, because then
they're getting a bit morerelaxed, because it's a new
environment and whilst theymight be expecting the dog to
still have problems, actuallyhopefully, by manipulating all
(13:03):
of those a's and all of thoseantecedents, we'll hopefully get
a better outcome from ourtraining exercise.
And this is what's really key,because when we're training and
when we're trying to teach thedog new skills as instructors
and trainers and handlers,actually we can control a lot of
those antecedents.
(13:24):
So we can control the arousal.
There's things we can do tomanipulate the dog's arousal.
So as owners, we know we canmanipulate arousal up or down.
You know you talk about thedimmer switch.
We know we can pick differentareas to train in.
So what's really important isthat we're aware of what's
happening.
And obviously actually beingable to manage people's actions
(13:47):
is a little bit more easy in a,in a training environment,
because, you know, certainly asan instructor I can tell people
to leave the room, I can tellpeople to keep their dogs in the
car.
Um, so when we're training it'sreally really important we're
considering these three a's andwe're manipulating them and
controlling them in a way thatwe can teach our dogs the
behaviors we want.
(14:07):
And this is where it gets.
Then, you know, really reallyimportant, because we all know
in training all of those thingsare controllable.
However, in the real world mostof those things are
uncontrollable and so whathappens very often is and
certainly this is a big thing inthe, you know, the working dog
community is that the dog willget taught a load of behaviors
(14:31):
in a training environment andthen all of a sudden is thrust
up into the big wide world as alicensed dog.
But actually all of thoseantecedents have changed and we
know from the science that whenwe change an antecedent, it's
highly likely that the behavioris going to change as well.
So you know, for example, we'dhave dogs apprehending people
(14:54):
with bite suits all the time intraining.
But then when they go and chasesomebody for the first time in
real life, it's so different totraining that there's going to
be a difference in in thebehavior, and we know that from
the science.
So what's really important whenwe're training is, if we're
considering the abcs, that oncewe know the dog can perform the
behavior really well.
(15:14):
We need to start altering thoseantecedents and this is where I
see a lot of training failingbecause people just keep playing
it safe, people keep replayingthe same scenarios, going to the
same places to train.
But actually what we need to do, whether it's a working dog or
a pet dog, is now start tomanipulate those antecedents to
(15:36):
say, hey, okay, we, we've taughtthe dog in this environment
with these controllableantecedents.
Now we need to start tweakingthem to make sure that when the
dog goes out into the real worldwhether it's walking down the
road to the train station orwalking to the park or as a
service dog, police dog, chasingafter somebody in real life
that we've done enough intraining to manipulate those
(15:59):
antecedents to give us a greaterchance of success with that
behavior so get the baddie, canyou still do it?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
so I suppose I've given you a question here.
So obviously I do agility.
Some of our listeners havetheir dogs, do different dog
sports.
So if I want to change theantecedents, just wanting to to
check in on some of my areas I'mnot going to change the area,
largely because I've got one ofthe nicest facilities in the UK
so I often do train at home.
However, I can train in lots ofdifferent venues and I will
(16:27):
push to train in more.
But let's say I'm training athome and I'm in my normal area.
I've already got the dog inhigh arousal, so I'm pushing
arousal.
What action might you change?
What examples of actions couldyou change to make it very like,
tangible for people?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
um, listening here from uh for the podcast yeah, I
think, certainly from an agilityperspective it's, it's.
You know there's lots ofvariables you can change.
So, for example, um, and youknow we've, we've worked on some
real basic weaves happen whereyou've you've got me moving and
just something as as silly asactually send the dog from the
other side of your body into theweaves and what you'll see is
(17:07):
that if you always send your dogI don't know, let's say, from
the left-hand side of your bodyinto the weave poles and you do
that loads and loads of times,so the dog's really good at it,
and then all of a sudden youchange the dog to the right-hand
side, very often you'll see adip in the dog's behavior
because we've changed anantecedent and it might not mean
that the dog completely failsto do the weave poles, but they
(17:28):
might be slower, they might hita few weave poles, they might
not be as slick as they would beif we constantly change those
actions.
And it's something.
It's quite funny actually,because I always when I'm
working my so when I was workingmy explosive search dog, I
always set her up on theleft-hand side of my body and
(17:51):
when I was going through mytraining course the instructor
was we were doing some sendawaysdown the left-hand side of a
route, and then we had to dosome sendaways down the
right-hand side of the routeover route, and then we had to
do some sendaways down the righthand side of the route.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I just couldn't get to grips with having the dog on
the right hand side and pointingwith my right hand yeah, I
remember you said that to me.
You like to point on one side,right?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
yeah, yeah, and and that's because, like, the same
thing with my behavior is sorigid because I've got this set
of actions that actually thenwhen someone tries to change it,
I can feel really, reallyuncomfortable trying to get the
dog to do what I wanted them todo.
And again, that's just anexample of how these ABCs don't
just relate to dog training.
(18:34):
They relate to pretty mucheverything we come across in
life, and what I always say whenwe're running kind of
instructor courses and trainercourses is that the ABCs are a
really, really good tool formanaging people and managing
students, because they work inexactly the the same way.
So, um, you know, we are allcreatures of habit, so the
(18:56):
actions kind of antecedent is areally, really important one,
certainly when you're workingwith, with people.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I think it's brilliant and I think it's just
knowing what those things are,and I'm thinking with agility,
for example.
One of mine that I would oftenchange is just the speed that
I'm moving.
So the speed that I'm moving.
If I move slowly, my dogs findit easier.
If I start to move faster, theydon't necessarily get it.
Or if I move past something,when I've asked for behavior,
they often associate thebehavior with my visual cue of
my body, but I often think it'sthe verbal or the actual cue of
(19:26):
the behavior, uh, the the objectcueing the behavior, but often
it is my body cueing it.
So my actions, if they're notconsistent and and they're not
in the same place and my dogmight not do the behavior I was
expecting.
So if my actions change, thenthen yeah, for sure that would.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
That would if normally, if I'm faster or
slower yeah, and I think I thinkthat's the important thing,
isn't it?
When you talk about agility, thedifference between winning and
losing could be a hundredth of asecond.
And so something as simple, asif you're on a course, for
example, you've never run beforeand your body position isn't
quite the same as it would be inyour training area, then
(20:02):
actually you don't want thedog's behavior to change.
You want the dog to still berunning at the same speed and
and completing everything atthat same level as they do in
training.
So, and that's why it's reallyimportant, you know the
difference between um.
You know, a hundredth of asecond might be just
conditioning your dog, adifferent style to you, to your
body, um, and then, certainly inthe you know the working dog
(20:24):
world, you know it's vitallyimportant that we implement
these changes in our trainingprogram, because it is literally
, in some cases, life or death.
And so actually, if we juststick to the same antecedents
and we stick to the sametraining methods and protocols
and we stick to the same youknow we've always done it this
way type approach, then you knowthat's when you start to get
(20:48):
problems yeah, and it's massive,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
because often we do stick to the same, because it's
just so much easier.
Right, it feels easier and todo it, so you're right.
Also, when you're out and about, there's a lot you can't
control, so whereas at home youcan say to max, max, if you're
eating, you need to sit therewhile I'm training.
When you're out and about, youcan't tell someone else's
five-year-old to sit where youneed him to sit behaviors right
(21:11):
yeah, and it is.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
It's important and that's why, like I say, in
training, whilst we can controleverything, our job as owners
and trainers is to equip ourdogs with as many skills as we
can to enable them to live inthe real world.
So when we're training our dogs, and whilst we can control the
controller balls, actually weneed to vary them and make sure
(21:33):
we're working the dog.
You know, as soon as the dog'sgot the behavior we want that's
when we start to mix the youknow let's push the dog into a
higher arousal.
Can he still do what we wanthim to do?
Okay, now we'll push him intoreally low arousal.
Can he still do what we wanthim to do?
Okay, now we'll push him intoreally low arousal.
Can he still do what we wanthim to do?
If we've only ever trained atthe same park every day, can we
now go to a different part ofthe park to start?
(21:55):
And all of these changes willbe very, very small, because
alongside the ABCs, we implementour SILS program, which is the
Small Incremental LearningSystem, and that's where the two
really join together, becausewhen we start to change those
antecedents, we follow the SILSprocess, which means we're only
changing very, very, very small,tiny components, but making
(22:20):
sure they're incremental so thatthe dog is learning to be able
to cope with whatever faces themin real life.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
So give me an example with your ABCs.
Give me an example faces themin real life.
So give me an example with yourabcs.
Give me an example of behavioryou're looking for.
Give me an example of how youmight adjust it to get it.
And I'm going to give you a dogthat is searching a building
but has the potential to go offon we, um, if not in the right
headspace yeah, so I think thisis quite common one.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Sometimes because that causes, because there's a
big problem in the in theworking dog world, when I was
with you.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
That is definitely something I saw as a potential
and you could see it as a realproblem if people weren't
acknowledging it or changingsomething, because you can't be
searching the queen's funeral orthe g7 summit with with dogs
weeing everywhere, right, likeit's just not.
He's going to get kicked.
You're going to get kicks offthose spaces quite quickly 100.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah, so so, and that's a really good example.
So, um, again, a lot of thatwill come down to the area.
So, again, what you generallyfind is, obviously, if one dog
has cocked his leg or weedsomewhere and you've got a van
full of six dogs that are allgoing into the same building,
then actually, you know, thesecond dog, the third dog, the
(23:29):
fourth dog, the fifth dog, thesixth dog is probably likely to
want to mark over where thatfirst dog has marked.
And so, as an instructor, asannoying as that might be, then
actually it might be that youhave to quickly change your,
your location of hides or routeyou're planning on taking
through the building to actuallyexclude an area where a dog has
(23:51):
, you know, potentially urinatedbefore.
Um, because if you don't changethe area that you're going to
be searching in a trainingenvironment, then it's highly
likely the other dogs are goingto go and want to mark in the
same place.
So, like I say, as aninstructor, you'd want to change
the area quite quickly so thatthe other dogs don't go to mark
in the same place.
So, like I say, as an instructor, you'd want to change the area
quite quickly so that the otherdogs don't go to the, whether
(24:11):
the room it's in or the area isin um, and it's all these things
you've got to constantly thinkabout, certainly when you're a
trainer, instructor is.
Think about those a's, the area, the arousal and the actions,
because it might be that when weexclude a certain area of that
search again the handler mightbe put off because their normal
(24:33):
search pattern might be affectedbecause we've now suddenly
excluded an area because thedog's urinated in it, and so
you've got to understand the theimplications.
Every time you change anantecedent the behavior will
change, and when you're dealingwith dogs and owners, there's
two lots of antecedents there'sthe dog's behavioral antecedents
(24:53):
and the handler's behavioralantecedents.
So you've always got to bespinning these plates to get the
best out of your training andgive us an example of where um
the owner may struggle.
So something the owner maystruggle on, like changing um
within their um session with youI can probably talk from
(25:14):
personal experience, because Ithink I drove my own instructors
like mad because I um, like Isay that that particular one
with the sender way, I justcouldn't.
I couldn't physically like workout putting the dog onto the
other side because I was soconditioned to to doing it, um,
whereas in the end it wasaffecting the dog's behavior so
(25:35):
much that actually I just had tostick with doing what I did.
And and that's what's reallyimportant, because you've got to
recognize, is it worth it?
Is it worth pushing andsqueezing?
Are you going to get the resultyou want?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
um.
There's a nice saying, isn't it?
Is the juice um worth thesqueeze?
Yeah, absolutely.
Is the juice worth the squeeze?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
no, it's probably not yeah, and that's what's
important in dog training aswell.
I think some people get sofixated on a methodology or a
regime or something.
It might be that they're not.
No, you've got to do this, weneed to be able to do this.
But whereas actually you knowit might be that the student, as
a handler, can't get their headaround it, or the dog can't get
(26:16):
their head around it, andthat's why you know we impress
upon this a lot when we're doinginstructor courses is that
you've got to look at the dog infront of you and realize what
part of those antecedents canyou change?
Which is then going to modifythe behavior?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
yeah, no, absolutely.
I think that's.
That's really key there.
So, and before we, I knowyou've mentioned sales, so
before we head out, I think ournext podcast has to be on sales.
Are you up for it, dave?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
we can definitely do a sales podcast and I think that
just that's the naturalincremental step from the ABCs,
right, so it's like perfect.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Smooth, smooth, smooth and smooth.
So, before we head out of here,anything else you'd want to add
to the ABCs and what people aregoing to take away with them
today, so any final top tips,hacks, learning points, anything
that you think people shouldleave with today I think you
just I think we leave on the sea.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Um, because the consequences is the another
really key part.
So when we talk aboutconsequence, realistically we're
talking about operantconditioning and classical
condition and and that's a wholenew topic on its own, um, but
what I would, what I wouldalways say, with the consequence
is that the the certainly indog training will tell you
(27:30):
whether your consequence andyour antecedents are working.
And so if something is goingwrong and you're not getting
that specific behavior you'relooking for, you either need to
go back to changing theconsequence or you need to go
right to the start and changethe antecedent consequence, or
you need to go right to thestart and change the antecedent,
(27:50):
because if you're not gettingwhat you want, it's either the
antecedent or the consequencewhich is holding you back.
And when we talk aboutconsequences, I think it's just
really important to say thatwhen we positively reinforce our
dog or if people choose topositively punish a dog, ideally
you want to be in the positivereinforcement space.
(28:12):
So we've given the dog lots ofgood things when they get the
behaviour we want.
And the only way you'll get thedog to do the behaviour you
want is if you've got yourantecedents right, and so very
often one of the things peoplevery quickly do is go to
positive punishment when thingsaren't working, and what we
really really impress upon andcertainly when we're working
(28:32):
with instructors and trainersand owners is that go back and
consider those antecedents.
So, before you even do anything, go back to those antecedents
and make sure your arousal isright, make sure your area is
right and make sure your actionsare right, so that you can get
the behavior you want andpositively reinforce the dog.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
And so, when you think on consequences, can you
give some examples some goodexamples and some bad examples
that you've seen over your timeof working with operational
police dogs?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I think there's stacks and stacks of really good
examples.
There's there's stacks andstacks of really good examples.
So I think what's reallyimportant is um.
You know, I was part of asteering group that actually
wrote um.
You know, a national protocolon on training police dogs and
within that protocol, we'vereally heavily focused on, you
know, making sure peopleunderstood the abcs and actually
(29:24):
thought about the way they theytrained um, and so really good
examples of people being reallycreative in terms of of how they
reinforce behaviors and, andwhat I've seen is a real shift
of people really understandingbehavior.
So the use of, you know,pre-map principle, um, the use
of um toys, food, being reallycreative in in what they do, and
(29:49):
I think that's the positivething.
I think there's a lot of reallygood stuff out there that
people people are um using andadapting in their dog training
because they're starting tounderstand things like these
abcs, things like the sillsprogram as well, and then any
consequences that you've seenover the past few years.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
That for you they don't work for you, that at the
same time, then any consequencesthat you've seen over the past
few years that for you theydon't work, for you, that at the
same time, they're consequencesthat people can be aware of
yeah, I think there's there's,there's lots of different
consequences.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I mean, I've, you know, two decades worth of
working with police dogs.
I've I've seen some prettybarbaric um stuff which is
probably not worth giving airtime to, but but I, I think it's
really.
I think it's really importantthat as we, as we go through
these training protocols, and wewe consider it that the the bad
(30:37):
stuff you know, people havedone in the past is through a
lack of education, and I thinkthat's the big thing, which is
why I'm so passionate about, youknow, these podcasts and
sharing as much information asI've been lucky enough to be
given.
It is to actually empowerpeople to, you know, think about
different options within thatconsequence space and also think
(30:58):
about different options withinthat antecedent space as well.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I'm thinking about a behavior when I was working with
a dog that continued andcontinued and continued and
continued.
To kind of tell you thatwhether you think you're
rewarding or not, it's probablybeing rewarded because it's
getting stronger and strongerand stronger.
And this behavior was a leaveit and a tug sort of behavior.
So the dog was tugging andtugging and tugging.
The leave it got louder andlouder and louder.
Leave it, leave it, leave it.
Ragging the dog's head andsmacking the dog's head around
and trying to get the toy outthe dog's mouth and fries into
it.
This dog just was having agreat time.
(31:27):
Like it was just a great gamefor this dog.
So actually it just sort of isa bit of a rough and tumble Like
this.
Was that happening, beingreinforced all the time for it?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
100%.
I think it's a really goodexample and this happens a lot
in police dog training becausecertainly with the dogs that are
biting dogs, they are so highlyaroused.
And you know, we've either bredthe dogs or bought the dogs for
a very specific purpose,because we want them to go out
and detain bad people.
And yeah, you know there's areally good example.
(31:58):
I was watching a trainingexercise where a dog wouldn't
leave the bite suit and so thedog was on a check chain and
every time they said leave, theypulled the check chain.
But you know, like your example, the, the dog actually started
fighting more, the dog was moredetermined to hang on the.
The dog was actually gettingworse in terms of not letting go
(32:21):
of of the toy.
And I remember having thisconversation saying um, you know
, what do we think is ishappening here?
Because actually the behavior,the specific behavior we're
looking for, isn't, isn't thereand the behavior we're trying to
avoid is actually gettingstronger.
So what is the dog telling us?
Um, and in that particularinstance, the dog was actually
(32:41):
saying to us that he enjoyed the, the consequence, which was the
check chain.
But in everyone's mind theythought they were punishing the
dog, but actually the only thingthat tells you whether you're
punishing or reinforcing is thedog.
And in this case the dog wastelling us, because its behavior
was getting stronger, that wewere actually reinforcing the
(33:06):
dog because the dog was thrivingon the fight because of the
type of dog it was.
But what was really good is, youknow, having that conversation
and kind of looking at it inconjunction with the ABCs
actually took us back to thedrawing board where we went okay
, well, how are we going toreconstruct this exercise to get
(33:27):
success?
And it all went back to thedog's arousal was too high.
The dog was always trained inthe same field and the handler
instructor was always the same.
So we changed the instructors.
And this is the beauty ofinstructors courses when you've
got four or five people on that,you can start to really have
these conversations with thestudents to say, okay, what are
you going to do to overcome this, because this a isn't working
(33:47):
and b is starting to get a bitcruel yeah, amazing.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I mean amazing because you, you also know not
only you like this is massiveeducation and at the same time,
like you said, the dog actuallywas quite enjoying the
experience.
But you know what?
I'm guessing you're workingwith a malinois it was a
malinois, yeah and some are juston that sort of wired space,
aren't they?
But yeah, no, I definitely,definitely, definitely,
(34:11):
definitely think that's a reallynice example and nice space to
think about.
Well, dave, I think it's beenamazing.
I think consequences for surethat everybody needs to be aware
of, certainly, certainly,certainly a lot of learning, and
I think when anybody'sstruggling, um, they definitely
can leave now feeling like haveI considered these three things?
Have I actually worked throughthem?
(34:32):
Have I considered even what I'mdoing?
I think sometimes people don'tconsider what they're doing.
They just consider what thedog's doing and they forget
about your own actions.
Like that's a real common one.
I think, from from my point ofview anyway, that the owners I
work with don't think at allabout what they're doing or what
might have changed in theenvironment.
They purely think about the dog, right?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
yeah, 100% and, like I say, I can only speak from the
experiences I've had.
But the vast majority of dogswe've dealt with um I don't know
this is really generalistic,but actually that the the
problems will be either arousalarea or actions um, in the vast
majority of cases, and themajority of those.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
They're pretty easy to sort right once you're aware
of them.
And I think I think you hit thenail on the head when you said
aware, like, is the owner or theperson handling even awake to
it?
I think I underlined that partof my um, my notes, to ask you
questions back on again thatactually if you're not even
aware of it, then you don't evenstand a chance to control it.
So if you're not even likeacknowledging, okay, this dog
(35:30):
gets wired when he hears thissiren or this helicopter go up,
or he's wired the second thathappens, then actually if you're
not aware of it, then you'renot.
Really.
It's that whole fail to prepare, prepare to fail, isn't it so,
henry ford?
And and prepare to fail, offyou go into that failure unless,
unless you've even acknowledgedwhat's potentially happening.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah, definitely, and I think that's the beauty of
these podcasts, isn't it?
Because we're only scratchingthe surface of a really big
topic, but hopefully people cantake something away and go do
you know what?
Let's just look at those threethings and maybe, if I change
them, I might get a betterresult with my dog.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Thank you, dave.
It's been incredible.
That was this episode of theSex and the Squirrel podcast,
and we'll join you next week forsome surprises, although I
think, by the sounds of it,small incremental learning is
also on the plan.
Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel
podcast.
I'm Lauren Langman.
I'm one of the world's leadingdog trainers and it's my mission
to help owners become theirdog's top priority.
In each episode, you'lldiscover how to gain trust and
communicate with your dog likenever before, creating
unbreakable bonds that make youthe most exciting part of their
world.
Welcome to the Sex and theSquirrel podcast, the podcast
(00:31):
that gives you real life, dogtraining and sometimes human
results too.
Now, today I'm joined by thewonderful Dave and I've been
told we're learning our ABCs andI have to say I see this as
maybe a step back, or maybe astep where I'm going to really
reflect on my use of language ormaybe it's my spelling, or
maybe it's.
I kind of want to sing thatsong, the whole like ABC song,
(00:53):
and maybe go from there.
But tell me, dave, what onearth are the ABCs of dog
training?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, we're definitely not going back to
nursery, so don't worry too muchabout that, and I definitely
won't get you singing, because Iknow what that's like as well.
So let's stick to dog training.
So yeah, the ABCs is and foryou know, people who've seen me
speak and trained with me beforewill know I place a great
(01:23):
emphasis on the ABCs of dogtraining and it's something that
I've picked up in, you know, a20-year career working with
working dogs, and I was gratefulfor the people who shared kind
of information with me and I'vebeen able to adapt that to
basically simplify a little bitthe ABCs, to make it more kind
(01:46):
of understandable for doghandlers, dog owners, and it was
something that underpinned alot of our train, the trainer
courses and future instructorcourses.
So it's essentially theantecedent behavior consequence
model, but we like to break itdown and keep it simple.
Um, because that's the theethos of my training is uh,
(02:08):
let's just keep it simple and Ilove I think I say it so
frequently go on your training.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Training is it's always, I like to hear in day to
day.
Training is simple but not easy, like it really is, like such a
great way, um to put it, isn'tit?
Because actually it really is.
Training is very simple, isn'tit?
But it is.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
It is at times, difficult yeah, 100, and I think
this you know that's a greatsaying I stole off um another
world renowned dog trainer aswell, and I think this is what's
great about dog training is wecan all take things from
different people.
We can all take things, uh, andlearn from everybody, and
what's really important is thatyou, you take all of this
information and um skills thatyou build up over time and
(02:54):
actually create something that'sa little bit unique to to you,
because ultimately, it's youthat's delivering the training
to, to either dogs, handlers, um, or certainly in my case, when
we were doing instructor coursesthat you need to be able to put
your own spin on things to makeyourself authentic but actually
make it understandable for thepeople or the dogs that you're
(03:15):
working with in front of you.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
And that is vital, isn't it?
If the people that are in frontof you, they don't understand
it, then it's not veryaccessible, which means that the
long-term result of what you'redoing isn't going to get
anywhere, like it's just notgoing to get to where you want
it to to go.
So I think that's really umgreat great learning.
If it's not tangible, you mightthink you're training dogs, but
if you're not able to train thehandler, then you're not really
going to ever get to the dogyeah, 100.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
And ultimately you, in my working dog capacity as an
instructor, you know you onlyspend short amounts of time with
the students who are the doghandlers and ultimately you've
got to be able to impart as muchknowledge as you can onto them
in the simplest way as you can,so that they can go away and you
know practice themselves andultimately, they're the ones
(04:02):
training their dogs and workingtheir dogs day in, day out.
So, yeah, I like to keep,although it's a little bit
behaviorally and a little bitbehavior based and is backed up
by science.
Um, you know, the way we talkabout the abcs and the way we
implement them is actuallyunderpins everything we do with
dogs.
Um, and and that's what's key,I think, is is making it simple,
(04:25):
making it understandable, sothat those people who are taking
on board the information can goaway and do it themselves.
And I think that's the key tobe a really good instructor and
a really good trainer is toactually empower people to go
and, you know, experience thingsthemselves and develop their
own dogs and so let's dive intothese ab.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
No, I'm not going to say um these abcs.
Uh, so we've talked antecedentbehavior consequence.
So please, please, please,please, please, enlighten sex in
the squirrel podcast listeners.
What on earth are you talkingabout?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
well, as I say, I like to keep things simple.
So, um, we we start off whenwe're talking about the abcs and
we start off with the b?
Um because behavior is isreally important.
So when we're teaching the abcs, we focus on making sure that
we're really specific aroundwhat it is we're talking about,
um, and I do lots of um kind ofpresentations and seminars on
(05:24):
communication and leadership,which also falls into the ABCs,
not just about dog training.
And I always say to people,when we're describing something,
and in this case when we'redescribing dog behavior, we
really need to be specificaround what it is we're actually
describing and exactly whatwe're expecting or not expecting
the dog to do.
(05:45):
So it's really important thatwe are specific around the
behavior.
So that's the starting point ofof kind of the abcs.
And then when we talk about thea's, we're talking about
antecedents.
So um, you know, for a lot ofpeople antecedents could seem
quite a complicated word orquite a behaviorally type word.
(06:06):
But we're just going to make itreally simple and ultimately,
an antecedent is something thathappens before a behavior.
So when we're describingantecedents, there can be
hundreds, if not thousands, ofantecedents to behavior, and
this is where it can start toget a little bit heavy and a
little bit, um, you know,complex from a behavior
(06:27):
perspective.
But what I like to do is justfocus on three and I call them
the three a's.
So the three a's within theantecedents are arousal area and
actions, and what I've found,um having worked in this
industry for, you know, close totwo decades, is, generally
(06:48):
speaking now I know this is avery general statement, but
generally speaking, when we'relooking at a dog's behavior,
very often, certainly in theworking dog community you could
probably say those three A's areone of the main reasons why the
dog's behavior is eithergetting us results or holding us
(07:09):
back from results, um, and veryoften I see the dog's arousal
level is too high.
Um, or the dog's arousal levelis too low, um, the area we're
training in is a really big one.
So, again, without getting toocomplex, but if the dog
constantly goes to an area whereit's doing bite work and then
all of a sudden we take it tothe same area and expect it to
(07:31):
do, you know, a really niceround of heel work in the
behavior acquisition stage justthat in my head.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I was like god, I can't imagine going from like
crazed, possessed bite work tosuper, like neat heel work, like
it's a lot of an ask.
And it's funny I'm thinkingthat because today I was with
our lovely friend Linda.
Dave, when I work with you andwhen I work with Linda, both top
instructors in your field and Iobviously teach um instructors
all over the world, I teachagility, obviously as a, as a
top game um, but alsoinstructors, just life skills
(07:59):
and actually day in, day out andyou obviously you're sent and
real expertise areas, um,throughout really all of your
operational dogs.
And then obviously linda withher um obedience, actually all
of these being major topics.
Now her dog today wasstruggling slightly.
We had a, we had a student inthe group who who liked to look
at her a lot and the student wasvery intense with the way she
was looking and so when ourstudent was intensely looking at
(08:20):
the dog, the dog didn't like it.
The dog got a bit quirky, to behonest, and so straight away
with linda we were like right,go play with some toy over there
.
So go in a distance and playwith the toy and like, go over
somewhere else and play and beexciting and do other things.
What we don't want you to do,and we really don't want you to
do in this environment, isactually let her focus on that.
(08:41):
So we don't want her to focuson the fact she's scared of the
person staring her or the factthat she's um worried and like
let's not give her a long time,let's change the arousal, change
your house.
She's actually too low.
So the reason she's too low andwe need to actually take her
out of that and make her alittle bit more like reactive
with her own and not so aware ofthe environment and low-key
stuff going on yeah, and that'swhat we find.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Actually, all these three a's interlink with each
other.
So the third one, when we'retalking about actions, is, you
know, the actions of the handler, the actions of the instructor,
the actions of the dogs around,um, and again, generally
speaking, if you know, certainlyin the police dog world, we
could have, you know, five orsix handlers on a training
course all on the same vantogether, um, and so there's
(09:23):
lots of kind of complexitiesaround who's doing what in a
training exercise, um, but, likeI say, generally speaking, what
I found is one of those threethings or a mixture of those
three things.
If we alter them and wemanipulate them and we change
them in training, we canactually get the behavior we're
specifically looking for fromour dogs.
(09:44):
Um.
But what is also reallyinteresting is that, you know,
science tells us, um, theantecedent behavior consequence
model works across the vastmajority of living organisms.
So you think um and I use thisexample a lot If I take my
eight-year-old son to WackyWarehouse and I sit at a table
(10:06):
right next to where all theother kids playing in the ball
pit, and obviously the actionsof all those other children and
(10:27):
then also the actions of me as a, as a parent, I'll start to get
stressed because he's notbehaving and all of these things
now start to impact on hisbehavior.
So, as I say it it's.
It's something I actually use,not just in dog training but in
that wider kind of leadershipand people management space,
because it's really really um,important, um.
(10:48):
But when you start to break itdown in the way we've just
described and we're only kind ofskimming the surface, I hope
people can start to see I've gota problem with my dog.
Maybe if I alter the dog'sarousal, or maybe if we change
the area we're training in, ormaybe if I'm a bit more relaxed
as a handler, then I'm going toget a better outcome and I'm
(11:09):
going to be more likely to getthat specific behavior I'm
looking for.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
So give us an example , dave and myself and our
listeners here at Sex in Schoolpodcast.
Give us an example of maybesomething in dog training where
the arousal, the area or theactions have been potentially
just not quite right for the dogand that something you might
have changed to get a betteroutcome yeah, I think there's
some.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
There's some really good um examples and certainly,
you know, working with umMalinois, german Shepherds in in
bite work is probably the thebiggest one because very often,
um, you know, the dogs are veryaroused once the they see a bite
suit or a bite sleeve orsomething like that.
So you know lots of things uhcan happen.
(11:54):
So if you always do for example, we always go to the same field
to do bite work, as I say whathappens is the dog.
You know we pull up onto thecar park and the dog already
knows where we are, he alreadyhas an expectation that he's
going to do bike work and that'sthen starting to increase his
arousal before he's even got outof the van.
And so, for example, if we weresetting up an exercise where I
(12:18):
don't know we were trying to geta better leave or a better out
off the bite suit, then actuallyif we go to the same place
where the dog gets over arousedand the dog knows it's doing
bite work, and then the handlergets stressed because he knows
the dog never lets go of thebite suit when we're at this
particular area, quite quicklyyou can alter a dog's behavior
(12:40):
simply by do you know what?
Actually let's go to somewherecompletely new.
Let let's um, you know, calmthe dog down before it does some
bite work by doing some heelwork around the field, um, and
in turn that then also altersthe handler, because then
they're getting a bit morerelaxed, because it's a new
environment and whilst theymight be expecting the dog to
still have problems, actuallyhopefully, by manipulating all
(13:03):
of those a's and all of thoseantecedents, we'll hopefully get
a better outcome from ourtraining exercise.
And this is what's really key,because when we're training and
when we're trying to teach thedog new skills as instructors
and trainers and handlers,actually we can control a lot of
those antecedents.
(13:24):
So we can control the arousal.
There's things we can do tomanipulate the dog's arousal.
So as owners, we know we canmanipulate arousal up or down.
You know you talk about thedimmer switch.
We know we can pick differentareas to train in.
So what's really important isthat we're aware of what's
happening.
And obviously actually beingable to manage people's actions
(13:47):
is a little bit more easy in a,in a training environment,
because, you know, certainly asan instructor I can tell people
to leave the room, I can tellpeople to keep their dogs in the
car.
Um, so when we're training it'sreally really important we're
considering these three a's andwe're manipulating them and
controlling them in a way thatwe can teach our dogs the
behaviors we want.
(14:07):
And this is where it gets.
Then, you know, really reallyimportant, because we all know
in training all of those thingsare controllable.
However, in the real world mostof those things are
uncontrollable and so whathappens very often is and
certainly this is a big thing inthe, you know, the working dog
community is that the dog willget taught a load of behaviors
(14:31):
in a training environment andthen all of a sudden is thrust
up into the big wide world as alicensed dog.
But actually all of thoseantecedents have changed and we
know from the science that whenwe change an antecedent, it's
highly likely that the behavioris going to change as well.
So you know, for example, we'dhave dogs apprehending people
(14:54):
with bite suits all the time intraining.
But then when they go and chasesomebody for the first time in
real life, it's so different totraining that there's going to
be a difference in in thebehavior, and we know that from
the science.
So what's really important whenwe're training is, if we're
considering the abcs, that oncewe know the dog can perform the
behavior really well.
(15:14):
We need to start altering thoseantecedents and this is where I
see a lot of training failingbecause people just keep playing
it safe, people keep replayingthe same scenarios, going to the
same places to train.
But actually what we need to do, whether it's a working dog or
a pet dog, is now start tomanipulate those antecedents to
(15:36):
say, hey, okay, we, we've taughtthe dog in this environment
with these controllableantecedents.
Now we need to start tweakingthem to make sure that when the
dog goes out into the real worldwhether it's walking down the
road to the train station orwalking to the park or as a
service dog, police dog, chasingafter somebody in real life
that we've done enough intraining to manipulate those
(15:59):
antecedents to give us a greaterchance of success with that
behavior so get the baddie, canyou still do it?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
so I suppose I've given you a question here.
So obviously I do agility.
Some of our listeners havetheir dogs, do different dog
sports.
So if I want to change theantecedents, just wanting to to
check in on some of my areas I'mnot going to change the area,
largely because I've got one ofthe nicest facilities in the UK
so I often do train at home.
However, I can train in lots ofdifferent venues and I will
(16:27):
push to train in more.
But let's say I'm training athome and I'm in my normal area.
I've already got the dog inhigh arousal, so I'm pushing
arousal.
What action might you change?
What examples of actions couldyou change to make it very like,
tangible for people?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
um, listening here from uh for the podcast yeah, I
think, certainly from an agilityperspective it's, it's.
You know there's lots ofvariables you can change.
So, for example, um, and youknow we've, we've worked on some
real basic weaves happen whereyou've you've got me moving and
just something as as silly asactually send the dog from the
other side of your body into theweaves and what you'll see is
(17:07):
that if you always send your dogI don't know, let's say, from
the left-hand side of your bodyinto the weave poles and you do
that loads and loads of times,so the dog's really good at it,
and then all of a sudden youchange the dog to the right-hand
side, very often you'll see adip in the dog's behavior
because we've changed anantecedent and it might not mean
that the dog completely failsto do the weave poles, but they
(17:28):
might be slower, they might hita few weave poles, they might
not be as slick as they would beif we constantly change those
actions.
And it's something.
It's quite funny actually,because I always when I'm
working my so when I was workingmy explosive search dog, I
always set her up on theleft-hand side of my body and
(17:51):
when I was going through mytraining course the instructor
was we were doing some sendawaysdown the left-hand side of a
route, and then we had to dosome sendaways down the
right-hand side of the routeover route, and then we had to
do some sendaways down the righthand side of the route.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I just couldn't get to grips with having the dog on
the right hand side and pointingwith my right hand yeah, I
remember you said that to me.
You like to point on one side,right?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
yeah, yeah, and and that's because, like, the same
thing with my behavior is sorigid because I've got this set
of actions that actually thenwhen someone tries to change it,
I can feel really, reallyuncomfortable trying to get the
dog to do what I wanted them todo.
And again, that's just anexample of how these ABCs don't
just relate to dog training.
(18:34):
They relate to pretty mucheverything we come across in
life, and what I always say whenwe're running kind of
instructor courses and trainercourses is that the ABCs are a
really, really good tool formanaging people and managing
students, because they work inexactly the the same way.
So, um, you know, we are allcreatures of habit, so the
(18:56):
actions kind of antecedent is areally, really important one,
certainly when you're workingwith, with people.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I think it's brilliant and I think it's just
knowing what those things are,and I'm thinking with agility,
for example.
One of mine that I would oftenchange is just the speed that
I'm moving.
So the speed that I'm moving.
If I move slowly, my dogs findit easier.
If I start to move faster, theydon't necessarily get it.
Or if I move past something,when I've asked for behavior,
they often associate thebehavior with my visual cue of
my body, but I often think it'sthe verbal or the actual cue of
(19:26):
the behavior, uh, the the objectcueing the behavior, but often
it is my body cueing it.
So my actions, if they're notconsistent and and they're not
in the same place and my dogmight not do the behavior I was
expecting.
So if my actions change, thenthen yeah, for sure that would.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
That would if normally, if I'm faster or
slower yeah, and I think I thinkthat's the important thing,
isn't it?
When you talk about agility, thedifference between winning and
losing could be a hundredth of asecond.
And so something as simple, asif you're on a course, for
example, you've never run beforeand your body position isn't
quite the same as it would be inyour training area, then
(20:02):
actually you don't want thedog's behavior to change.
You want the dog to still berunning at the same speed and
and completing everything atthat same level as they do in
training.
So, and that's why it's reallyimportant, you know the
difference between um.
You know, a hundredth of asecond might be just
conditioning your dog, adifferent style to you, to your
body, um, and then, certainly inthe you know the working dog
(20:24):
world, you know it's vitallyimportant that we implement
these changes in our trainingprogram, because it is literally
, in some cases, life or death.
And so actually, if we juststick to the same antecedents
and we stick to the sametraining methods and protocols
and we stick to the same youknow we've always done it this
way type approach, then you knowthat's when you start to get
(20:48):
problems yeah, and it's massive,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
because often we do stick to the same, because it's
just so much easier.
Right, it feels easier and todo it, so you're right.
Also, when you're out and about, there's a lot you can't
control, so whereas at home youcan say to max, max, if you're
eating, you need to sit therewhile I'm training.
When you're out and about, youcan't tell someone else's
five-year-old to sit where youneed him to sit behaviors right
(21:11):
yeah, and it is.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
It's important and that's why, like I say, in
training, whilst we can controleverything, our job as owners
and trainers is to equip ourdogs with as many skills as we
can to enable them to live inthe real world.
So when we're training our dogs, and whilst we can control the
controller balls, actually weneed to vary them and make sure
(21:33):
we're working the dog.
You know, as soon as the dog'sgot the behavior we want that's
when we start to mix the youknow let's push the dog into a
higher arousal.
Can he still do what we wanthim to do?
Okay, now we'll push him intoreally low arousal.
Can he still do what we wanthim to do?
Okay, now we'll push him intoreally low arousal.
Can he still do what we wanthim to do?
If we've only ever trained atthe same park every day, can we
now go to a different part ofthe park to start?
(21:55):
And all of these changes willbe very, very small, because
alongside the ABCs, we implementour SILS program, which is the
Small Incremental LearningSystem, and that's where the two
really join together, becausewhen we start to change those
antecedents, we follow the SILSprocess, which means we're only
changing very, very, very small,tiny components, but making
(22:20):
sure they're incremental so thatthe dog is learning to be able
to cope with whatever faces themin real life.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
So give me an example with your ABCs.
Give me an example faces themin real life.
So give me an example with yourabcs.
Give me an example of behavioryou're looking for.
Give me an example of how youmight adjust it to get it.
And I'm going to give you a dogthat is searching a building
but has the potential to go offon we, um, if not in the right
headspace yeah, so I think thisis quite common one.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Sometimes because that causes, because there's a
big problem in the in theworking dog world, when I was
with you.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
That is definitely something I saw as a potential
and you could see it as a realproblem if people weren't
acknowledging it or changingsomething, because you can't be
searching the queen's funeral orthe g7 summit with with dogs
weeing everywhere, right, likeit's just not.
He's going to get kicked.
You're going to get kicks offthose spaces quite quickly 100.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah, so so, and that's a really good example.
So, um, again, a lot of thatwill come down to the area.
So, again, what you generallyfind is, obviously, if one dog
has cocked his leg or weedsomewhere and you've got a van
full of six dogs that are allgoing into the same building,
then actually, you know, thesecond dog, the third dog, the
(23:29):
fourth dog, the fifth dog, thesixth dog is probably likely to
want to mark over where thatfirst dog has marked.
And so, as an instructor, asannoying as that might be, then
actually it might be that youhave to quickly change your,
your location of hides or routeyou're planning on taking
through the building to actuallyexclude an area where a dog has
(23:51):
, you know, potentially urinatedbefore.
Um, because if you don't changethe area that you're going to
be searching in a trainingenvironment, then it's highly
likely the other dogs are goingto go and want to mark in the
same place.
So, like I say, as aninstructor, you'd want to change
the area quite quickly so thatthe other dogs don't go to mark
in the same place.
So, like I say, as an instructor, you'd want to change the area
quite quickly so that the otherdogs don't go to the, whether
(24:11):
the room it's in or the area isin um, and it's all these things
you've got to constantly thinkabout, certainly when you're a
trainer, instructor is.
Think about those a's, the area, the arousal and the actions,
because it might be that when weexclude a certain area of that
search again the handler mightbe put off because their normal
(24:33):
search pattern might be affectedbecause we've now suddenly
excluded an area because thedog's urinated in it, and so
you've got to understand the theimplications.
Every time you change anantecedent the behavior will
change, and when you're dealingwith dogs and owners, there's
two lots of antecedents there'sthe dog's behavioral antecedents
(24:53):
and the handler's behavioralantecedents.
So you've always got to bespinning these plates to get the
best out of your training andgive us an example of where um
the owner may struggle.
So something the owner maystruggle on, like changing um
within their um session with youI can probably talk from
(25:14):
personal experience, because Ithink I drove my own instructors
like mad because I um, like Isay that that particular one
with the sender way, I justcouldn't.
I couldn't physically like workout putting the dog onto the
other side because I was soconditioned to to doing it, um,
whereas in the end it wasaffecting the dog's behavior so
(25:35):
much that actually I just had tostick with doing what I did.
And and that's what's reallyimportant, because you've got to
recognize, is it worth it?
Is it worth pushing andsqueezing?
Are you going to get the resultyou want?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
um.
There's a nice saying, isn't it?
Is the juice um worth thesqueeze?
Yeah, absolutely.
Is the juice worth the squeeze?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
no, it's probably not yeah, and that's what's
important in dog training aswell.
I think some people get sofixated on a methodology or a
regime or something.
It might be that they're not.
No, you've got to do this, weneed to be able to do this.
But whereas actually you knowit might be that the student, as
a handler, can't get their headaround it, or the dog can't get
(26:16):
their head around it, andthat's why you know we impress
upon this a lot when we're doinginstructor courses is that
you've got to look at the dog infront of you and realize what
part of those antecedents canyou change?
Which is then going to modifythe behavior?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
yeah, no, absolutely.
I think that's.
That's really key there.
So, and before we, I knowyou've mentioned sales, so
before we head out, I think ournext podcast has to be on sales.
Are you up for it, dave?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
we can definitely do a sales podcast and I think that
just that's the naturalincremental step from the ABCs,
right, so it's like perfect.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Smooth, smooth, smooth and smooth.
So, before we head out of here,anything else you'd want to add
to the ABCs and what people aregoing to take away with them
today, so any final top tips,hacks, learning points, anything
that you think people shouldleave with today I think you
just I think we leave on the sea.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Um, because the consequences is the another
really key part.
So when we talk aboutconsequence, realistically we're
talking about operantconditioning and classical
condition and and that's a wholenew topic on its own, um, but
what I would, what I wouldalways say, with the consequence
is that the the certainly indog training will tell you
(27:30):
whether your consequence andyour antecedents are working.
And so if something is goingwrong and you're not getting
that specific behavior you'relooking for, you either need to
go back to changing theconsequence or you need to go
right to the start and changethe antecedent consequence, or
you need to go right to thestart and change the antecedent,
(27:50):
because if you're not gettingwhat you want, it's either the
antecedent or the consequencewhich is holding you back.
And when we talk aboutconsequences, I think it's just
really important to say thatwhen we positively reinforce our
dog or if people choose topositively punish a dog, ideally
you want to be in the positivereinforcement space.
(28:12):
So we've given the dog lots ofgood things when they get the
behaviour we want.
And the only way you'll get thedog to do the behaviour you
want is if you've got yourantecedents right, and so very
often one of the things peoplevery quickly do is go to
positive punishment when thingsaren't working, and what we
really really impress upon andcertainly when we're working
(28:32):
with instructors and trainersand owners is that go back and
consider those antecedents.
So, before you even do anything, go back to those antecedents
and make sure your arousal isright, make sure your area is
right and make sure your actionsare right, so that you can get
the behavior you want andpositively reinforce the dog.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
And so, when you think on consequences, can you
give some examples some goodexamples and some bad examples
that you've seen over your timeof working with operational
police dogs?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I think there's stacks and stacks of really good
examples.
There's there's stacks andstacks of really good examples.
So I think what's reallyimportant is um.
You know, I was part of asteering group that actually
wrote um.
You know, a national protocolon on training police dogs and
within that protocol, we'vereally heavily focused on, you
know, making sure peopleunderstood the abcs and actually
(29:24):
thought about the way they theytrained um, and so really good
examples of people being reallycreative in terms of of how they
reinforce behaviors and, andwhat I've seen is a real shift
of people really understandingbehavior.
So the use of, you know,pre-map principle, um, the use
of um toys, food, being reallycreative in in what they do, and
(29:49):
I think that's the positivething.
I think there's a lot of reallygood stuff out there that
people people are um using andadapting in their dog training
because they're starting tounderstand things like these
abcs, things like the sillsprogram as well, and then any
consequences that you've seenover the past few years.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
That for you they don't work for you, that at the
same time, then any consequencesthat you've seen over the past
few years that for you theydon't work, for you, that at the
same time, they're consequencesthat people can be aware of
yeah, I think there's there's,there's lots of different
consequences.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I mean, I've, you know, two decades worth of
working with police dogs.
I've I've seen some prettybarbaric um stuff which is
probably not worth giving airtime to, but but I, I think it's
really.
I think it's really importantthat as we, as we go through
these training protocols, and wewe consider it that the the bad
(30:37):
stuff you know, people havedone in the past is through a
lack of education, and I thinkthat's the big thing, which is
why I'm so passionate about, youknow, these podcasts and
sharing as much information asI've been lucky enough to be
given.
It is to actually empowerpeople to, you know, think about
different options within thatconsequence space and also think
(30:58):
about different options withinthat antecedent space as well.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I'm thinking about a behavior when I was working with
a dog that continued andcontinued and continued and
continued.
To kind of tell you thatwhether you think you're
rewarding or not, it's probablybeing rewarded because it's
getting stronger and strongerand stronger.
And this behavior was a leaveit and a tug sort of behavior.
So the dog was tugging andtugging and tugging.
The leave it got louder andlouder and louder.
Leave it, leave it, leave it.
Ragging the dog's head andsmacking the dog's head around
and trying to get the toy outthe dog's mouth and fries into
it.
This dog just was having agreat time.
(31:27):
Like it was just a great gamefor this dog.
So actually it just sort of isa bit of a rough and tumble Like
this.
Was that happening, beingreinforced all the time for it?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
100%.
I think it's a really goodexample and this happens a lot
in police dog training becausecertainly with the dogs that are
biting dogs, they are so highlyaroused.
And you know, we've either bredthe dogs or bought the dogs for
a very specific purpose,because we want them to go out
and detain bad people.
And yeah, you know there's areally good example.
(31:58):
I was watching a trainingexercise where a dog wouldn't
leave the bite suit and so thedog was on a check chain and
every time they said leave, theypulled the check chain.
But you know, like your example, the, the dog actually started
fighting more, the dog was moredetermined to hang on the.
The dog was actually gettingworse in terms of not letting go
(32:21):
of of the toy.
And I remember having thisconversation saying um, you know
, what do we think is ishappening here?
Because actually the behavior,the specific behavior we're
looking for, isn't, isn't thereand the behavior we're trying to
avoid is actually gettingstronger.
So what is the dog telling us?
Um, and in that particularinstance, the dog was actually
(32:41):
saying to us that he enjoyed the, the consequence, which was the
check chain.
But in everyone's mind theythought they were punishing the
dog, but actually the only thingthat tells you whether you're
punishing or reinforcing is thedog.
And in this case the dog wastelling us, because its behavior
was getting stronger, that wewere actually reinforcing the
(33:06):
dog because the dog was thrivingon the fight because of the
type of dog it was.
But what was really good is, youknow, having that conversation
and kind of looking at it inconjunction with the ABCs
actually took us back to thedrawing board where we went okay
, well, how are we going toreconstruct this exercise to get
(33:27):
success?
And it all went back to thedog's arousal was too high.
The dog was always trained inthe same field and the handler
instructor was always the same.
So we changed the instructors.
And this is the beauty ofinstructors courses when you've
got four or five people on that,you can start to really have
these conversations with thestudents to say, okay, what are
you going to do to overcome this, because this a isn't working
(33:47):
and b is starting to get a bitcruel yeah, amazing.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I mean amazing because you, you also know not
only you like this is massiveeducation and at the same time,
like you said, the dog actuallywas quite enjoying the
experience.
But you know what?
I'm guessing you're workingwith a malinois it was a
malinois, yeah and some are juston that sort of wired space,
aren't they?
But yeah, no, I definitely,definitely, definitely,
(34:11):
definitely think that's a reallynice example and nice space to
think about.
Well, dave, I think it's beenamazing.
I think consequences for surethat everybody needs to be aware
of, certainly, certainly,certainly a lot of learning, and
I think when anybody'sstruggling, um, they definitely
can leave now feeling like haveI considered these three things?
Have I actually worked throughthem?
(34:32):
Have I considered even what I'mdoing?
I think sometimes people don'tconsider what they're doing.
They just consider what thedog's doing and they forget
about your own actions.
Like that's a real common one.
I think, from from my point ofview anyway, that the owners I
work with don't think at allabout what they're doing or what
might have changed in theenvironment.
They purely think about the dog, right?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
yeah, 100% and, like I say, I can only speak from the
experiences I've had.
But the vast majority of dogswe've dealt with um I don't know
this is really generalistic,but actually that the the
problems will be either arousalarea or actions um, in the vast
majority of cases, and themajority of those.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
They're pretty easy to sort right once you're aware
of them.
And I think I think you hit thenail on the head when you said
aware, like, is the owner or theperson handling even awake to
it?
I think I underlined that partof my um, my notes, to ask you
questions back on again thatactually if you're not even
aware of it, then you don't evenstand a chance to control it.
So if you're not even likeacknowledging, okay, this dog
(35:30):
gets wired when he hears thissiren or this helicopter go up,
or he's wired the second thathappens, then actually if you're
not aware of it, then you'renot.
Really.
It's that whole fail to prepare, prepare to fail, isn't it so,
henry ford?
And and prepare to fail, offyou go into that failure unless,
unless you've even acknowledgedwhat's potentially happening.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah, definitely, and I think that's the beauty of
these podcasts, isn't it?
Because we're only scratchingthe surface of a really big
topic, but hopefully people cantake something away and go do
you know what?
Let's just look at those threethings and maybe, if I change
them, I might get a betterresult with my dog.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Thank you, dave.
It's been incredible.
That was this episode of theSex and the Squirrel podcast,
and we'll join you next week forsome surprises, although I
think, by the sounds of it,small incremental learning is
also on the plan.
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