August 18, 2025 • 34 mins
What if business success isn't about endless growth? Sundra Essien, co-founder of Isang's Hair and Body, returns to Shades and Layers for our 100th episode for this discussion. Sundra and I first spoke in 2020 during the first season of the podcast and a period of uncertainty in the world. Today, she returns to once again challenge everything you think you know about entrepreneurship, sustainability, and success.
Sundra's Copenhagen-based personal care company manufactures hair and body products using organic, fair-trade ingredients in an open workshop where customers can witness production firsthand. Their true mission, however, extends far beyond making and selling body care products. Isangs is a platform for addressing critical issues from supply chain transparency to social justice. As Sundra explains, these everyday products provide the perfect vehicle for sparking deeper conversations: "It's a space where people aren't expecting to have discussions about de-growth and justice and politics."
Today’s conversation serves as a reflection on how far Isang's has come since our last conversation, how they’ve leveraged social media not only to stay in business, but to continue addressing all the issues that are central to the company's founding philosophy. The company's philosophy centers on de-growth—the radical notion that businesses should question the imperative for constant expansion.
Listen now to discover how rethinking success might lead to greater satisfaction in business and life. Follow Isang's at @Isangs on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook to learn more about their mission-driven approach.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sundra Essien (00:03):
So that's been important for me to build
something that's a really good,high quality product that people
like, not because of ourpolitics, not because of what we
stand for, but because it'ssomething that provides actual,
tangible value to people's lives.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (00:18):
Right, hello and welcome to Shades and
Layers.
I'm your host, Kutloano SkosanaRicci , and today is a big
milestone for the podcast.
This is episode 100, and it isone to be bookmarked because it
speaks to everything that thepodcast stands for.
We love women of colorentrepreneurs, we love
sustainability, we lovemission-driven founders, and
(00:38):
we're all about impactingpeople's lives positively
through all our actions,including the businesses we
start, and so I thought there'sno better way to bring this
message across than to go fullcircle to where it started.
My guest today was featured inone of the first episodes of
Shades and Layers in June of2020, Sundra Essien, co-founder
(01:00):
of Isang's Hair and Body, aCopenhagen-based beauty supply
store that is more than meetsthe eye.
It's a platform for all theissues that plague modern
society, from fair trades tosustainability, supply chain
management and inclusion.
Since five years ago, when wefirst spoke, Sundra has some
updates and here she is on herorigin story and where Isangs
(01:22):
finds itself as a brand todayeSangs is in the simplest form,
it's just a hair and body careproduction.
Sundra Essien (01:35):
So we make hair and body care products using
organic, fair trade, veganingredients, and they're made
inside of our open productionworkshop in Copenhagen.
So that's the short, simpleexplanation.
So that's the short, simpleexplanation.
Deeper explanation is it'sactually a way for me to work on
and look at and address issuesof supply chain transparency,
(01:55):
empathy across supply chains,understanding of the products
that we use and the effects ofthe products that we use, and a
way for me to experiment withhow we can bring those issues to
the forefront and surface thecosts of our products to
consumers, but through theseproducts that we make, and we do
that in everything in terms ofin the ways that we source and
(02:19):
making those things that we do,in terms of sourcing and the
cooperatives that we source fromtransparent to our customers,
but also in the way that weproduce them in a small
production workshop, when it'sopen, where people can ask
questions and see the thingsthat are being produced.
We also run a lot of veryinformation-based business where
people have access to bothinformation about the products
(02:42):
that we use, the processes thatwe use, the philosophy and the
politics behind our products andprocesses.
Right now, one of our bigissues that really sits really
close to my heart is arounddegrowth, decentralizing growth
in a business and really justtrying to open the conversation
for businesses to talk about notgetting bigger and not growing
(03:05):
and how that's going to have tobe an important discussion in
terms of long-termsustainability.
We just try to bring up theissues that are important to us
and issues that we think areimportant in terms of broader
environmental and sustainabilityand justice context through
care and body care products.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (03:23):
So how long have you been in business
now?
Sundra Essien (03:26):
Well, we opened the shop in 2012.
So this is our teenage year.
This is where we turned 13.
But I registered the businessfirst in 2010.
So technically, the businesshas existed for 15 years.
But those first couple of yearswere just going out to markets,
(03:47):
testing the concept and seeingif we had anything that people
were at all interested in.
And then we found the physicallocation for our production and
shop in 2012.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (03:57):
Okay, so when you started out, is this
what you were aiming for to be aplatform for this discussion or
did you have a differentpicture in?
Sundra Essien (04:08):
mind.
I mean, I didn't have all ofthe details about what exactly,
how it exactly would look andhow, and at that point I had no
interest or relationship tosocial media.
So the way we bring out themessage is different than I
imagined, but the message isquite I mean, it's surprisingly
(04:30):
close to what I envisioned along time ago when I wrote our
manifesto back in 2010.
Which is that I'm, oddly enough, despite the fact that I make
hair and body care products,oddly enough, despite the fact
that I make hair and body careproducts, I'm very uninterested
in hair and body care productsor skincare or makeup in and of
(04:50):
themselves.
But I think they're a reallypowerful vehicle for addressing
change, and that's just becauseeveryone uses them.
They touch all of the issues,so it's kind of a right market
to be disruptive in, because itreally just affects everyone.
It touches everyone and theyaffect everything from
misinformation to supply chainissues, to growth issues, to
(05:11):
issues of self-esteem and bodyimage, to overconsumption
they're all packed into hair andbody care.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (05:19):
It's the meeting point, this whole
crossroads.
Sundra Essien (05:23):
It is of all the issues.
So I think it's a really it's areally great space to be in if
you want to have a platform toaddress these issues in.
Um, I don't want to say sneaky,because it sounds like there's
some deception built into it,but it's sort of a approach to
it where people aren't expectingto have the discussions about
degrowth and and justice andpolitics in a hair and body care
(05:46):
space.
So I think it disarms people abit that these are the
conversations we're havinginside of this, and that was
what I wanted to do.
I never thought that I wouldreally be able to fold out in
the way that we've really beenable to fold out in the last
couple of years in the lastcouple of years.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (06:03):
Yeah, what do you think it is that
makes your brand resonate withcustomers?
Because you've been standingfirm for the past 15 years and
seemingly thriving.
Sundra Essien (06:15):
Yeah, I mean, the thriving part has had its ups
and downs.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (06:23):
Of course it's a business, it's a
business.
Sundra Essien (06:26):
It's a business, and there have been times where
I've been way more focused onthe business aspects of it than
I'd like to, because I mean itdoes have to work as a business
concept.
Have a product that people wantto buy, that people come back
for.
So that's been important for meto build something that's a
really good, high qualityproduct that people like, not
because of our politics, notbecause of what we stand for,
(06:49):
but because it's something thatprovides actual, tangible value
to people's lives.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (06:55):
Right.
Sundra Essien (06:55):
That's the foundation of it, Because if we
don't have that, then for meit's a bit silly to talk about,
oh, overconsumption or all ofthis, but buy this product that
you don't need.
Which happens?
yes, it has no future value toyou because you like the story
that it's selling.
So in many ways we built thebusiness on the products and a
(07:29):
lot of our customers met us likeproduct first.
We solved or addressed a needthat they had, whether it be
deodorants or shampoos or bodyoils, something to deal with
these really harsh copenhagenwinters.
So so we lead first withaddressing and providing value
and then we kind of sneak in ourpolitics, um, along with those,
and I don't want to say sneakin our politics along with those
, and I don't want to say sneakin and like that, because we're
very forthcoming.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (07:49):
You've been very open about where you
stand on issues.
Sundra Essien (07:53):
About where we stand.
We're very clear about thiswe're a business, we sell this,
and these are our politics.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (07:58):
Yeah, and do you face pushback when
you push your politics?
Sundra Essien (08:02):
Not at all.
I mean surprisingly little backwhen you push your politics.
Not at all I mean surprisinglylittle, but it's probably
because most people meet us andhear our politics so early on I
think they weed themselves outif they're not interested in it.
So it's not like people expectone thing and then meet us and
then are really surprised tofind out that we support fair
(08:23):
trade cooperatives, that we workwith olive oil producers in
Palestine.
We've been doing that for thelast 12 years and we've been
open and vocal about it.
And we work with small farmercooperatives in Ghana and
women's cooperatives in Braziland salt farmers in France, and
so none of this surprises anyonewho had either come into our
(08:43):
shop or met us on social mediaor been to our website.
You get kind of confronted withthis early on, so if it's
really not their cup of tea.
People just move on.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (08:54):
But, like you say, it's all about the
product also, right.
So what makes your productseffective and have such broad
appeal?
Sundra Essien (09:02):
I mean, I think it's a number of things.
I think one of the things thatmakes them effective is that
we're really good at expectationmanaging.
We're not selling a miracle ora dream.
And in many ways we're sellingstuff that other people in
theory could also sell just highquality products at a
reasonable, affordable priceright.
It's not in that sense sorevolutionary, but we don't try
(09:22):
to claim or sell anythingrevolutionary and I think people
are really pleasantly surprisedwhen they're not met with
companies saying smear this on,and then in two seconds you know
you'll have a 15 year old childand just make more and more
absurd claims and it gets harderand harder to just trust
(09:43):
anything because like yeah, butokay, is this going to like
solve male pattern baldness withthis oil?
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (09:48):
I just rub on.
Sundra Essien (09:50):
Wouldn't that be true?
And so I think, when you'reconstantly underwhelmed and
disappointed because companiesare constantly over-promising
and we're constantly in some wayunder-promising, they're
promising.
Yeah, people are oftentimesjust like oh wow, that's, that's
really refreshing to getsomething that does what it
(10:11):
should and more, and you get alot for the for the money.
So in many ways it's a reallysimple strategy.
We just make money Goodproducts that do what they
should, made from goodingredients.
But I think most people areunfortunately trying to push out
as much money as they can outof the products, which means
they're watering down theingredients, taking as many
(10:32):
shortcuts they want as they canand then, at the same time,
constantly over-promising whatpeople are going to get, how
they're going to feel, how theirlives are going to change.
Shampoo is never going tochange your life.
It will wash your hair.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (10:46):
It will wash your hair, hopefully make
your hair cleaner than it wasbefore.
Sundra Essien (10:50):
We don't claim to help anyone deal with anything
beyond cleaning their hair withour shampoo.
We're not in your friend groupor making you happier, and we're
very vocal about saying that.
And I think that people findthat honesty refreshing and
authentic and it makes it easierfor people to be satisfied
because you're not promisingthem the world.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (11:12):
Right, right, Okay.
So, unless you're running acharity or a non-profit, your
motive for being in business isprofit.
Great.
But then the question comes howfast do you need to have that
profit reflected on your bottomline?
Well, that depends on manyfactors, but my guest today on
(11:33):
Shades and Layers, Sandra Essien, co-founder of Isang's Hair and
Body, has some thoughts on howshe's been playing the long game
.
Sundra Essien (11:40):
Our goal is to run a profitable business.
We're not a charity.
We say this often.
Then we also don't think fairtrade, a lot of sort of our
justice issues.
These shouldn't be things ofI'm doing it out of charity.
I'm doing it because it makesfor a system that functions
better for us all.
It actually makes for abusiness environment that's more
stable for also me to continueto do business in.
(12:01):
So if I'm just running to grabeverything I can at the expense
of a system that eventually willcollapse and make it a less fun
and interesting and stableworld for me to exist in, it's
also ultimately worse for mybusiness.
So in some way it's a long-termstrategy where you sacrifice
some short-term profits butwe're profitable term profits,
(12:27):
but we're profitable.
We're just not aiming to bebillionaires.
I don't have a big lifestyle.
This business probably wouldn'tafford me a huge lifestyle, but
I'm also not interested in one.
I don't have a car.
I ride a bicycle.
We live well within our meansand we have time to do all of
the other stuff that we enjoyand want to do.
So I feel in many ways morefree, but it's not money that's
providing that freedom.
(12:48):
We're at a point now where thebusiness is stable, we're able
to meet our bills and pay ouremployees and then not have to
be there all of the time, haveenough people to cover the shop
shifts.
When I set, instead of settinga floor which we also, of course
, you have to meet this, youhave to earn this much in order
(13:10):
to meet your budgets, forexample we also set ceilings and
say like, okay, when we reachthis point, we're just at
sustaining mode, we're no longerat chasing growth mode, and I
think there's a season,different seasons, for
businesses.
When you're starting out, ofcourse, you're probably going to
be in some level of growth mode.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (13:27):
Right.
Sundra Essien (13:28):
Reaching a point where you're sustainable, where
the money in covers the moneygoing out.
That's not as far off, I think,as some people are led to
believe, if your goal isn'tcontinuous growth and world
domination.
Kutloano Skosana Ric (13:42):
Absolutely so.
It's reaching that point ofknowing when enough is enough,
exactly.
So, what led you to this path,because it's a mindset.
Sundra Essien (13:52):
I've never been sort of just personally super
interested in having a whole lotof money, so that's in some way
I've inherited that from myparents, particularly my mom,
who's sort of one of her biglectures growing up is that you
know, after a certain point, Imean, everything has its
propensities After a certainpoint.
Food doesn't get better the moreyou pay for it.
(14:13):
Clothes don't get nicer the moreyou pay for them.
Over a certain point your lifedoesn't get improved over a
certain amount of money getimproved over a certain amount
of money and in some way I thinkit's not just diminishing
returns, but in some way over acertain threshold I think you
have negative returns on everyadditional money made, because
(14:33):
then it takes away from otherthings that you could be doing,
like building relationships thatactually in all of the studies
on health and happiness thosetend to be more important than
the amount of money people haveover a certain threshold, and
that threshold is kind of likebasic needs, housing, clothing,
but all the excess over that.
(14:54):
If you're spending all of yourtime gaining 20 outfits a week,
then you're cutting into yourbudget for relationships and all
of the other stuff that willlead to some genuine happiness.
So I'm fortunate enough that Iwas raised in a household where
they recognize that and werevery open and vocal about the
benefits to your generalhappiness of living below your
(15:16):
means and not building a life sobig that you have to constantly
be at, constantly a slave tomaintaining this large life
right right then you kind of canfind that point where it's like
I have enough, to where I'm notwanting for the basic needs but
I have to work a little bit toget some of the extra stuff.
Because that also provides likesome process and some learning
(15:37):
and some fun, because if younever had to work for anything,
then it's not fun having itright it takes, it sucks a lot
of the fun out of it.
So it's something about like oh,I want to take this great
vacation, but I have to save upa little bit for it.
That process, there's learningin that there's, you know,
there's also accomplishment, andyou've already gone through
(15:57):
something before you've gottenthere, which makes it a little
sweeter on the other end.
So I don't, I don't want't wantto strip myself of all the
processes and just say, oh, Ijust skip to it because I just
have infinite amounts of money.
So money doesn't, I mean itprovides something.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (16:14):
Yeah, I mean, it's that whole thing of
if you don't have friction, thenwhat's the point?
Sundra Essien (16:20):
You don't have growth.
I mean, it removes so much ofthe and it's hard to really
understand the benefits of goingthrough something to get to
something on the other side.
But I think it's reflected inso many natural processes,
everything from childbirth, likejust physically going fighting
(16:42):
through the birth canal goodthings, babies, immune systems,
and it's not.
It doesn't mean that if theydon't do that, all is lost.
But I think even in a bunch ofnatural systems we see that sort
of fighting to get chickens,when they fight to get an egg.
If you cut them out of the eggthen they won't survive.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (17:02):
Yeah, they have to struggle for it.
Sundra Essien (17:06):
Struggling out of it that strengthens their bones
and and makes them robustenough to survive on the other
side of it.
So I think money, when it, whenit kind of becomes the thing
that just cuts you out of theegg, then I think it also it can
be a bit a damage.
Yeah to us.
Yeah, having being both equipped, but also some of the happiness
(17:27):
that comes on the other side ofof earning something we don't
talk about it a lot because wefeel like everything will be
good on the other side of awhole lot of money yeah, we like
convenience though we areprimed for convenience yeah and
convenience is killing us.
it's literally killing us everyday.
I think, okay, I'm privilegedenough to live in a space where
they have bike routes and goodpublic transportation.
(17:49):
I didn't grow up in a spacelike that, and instead of
thinking like, oh, this means Ican't have a big life where I
have a nice car, I'm like I getto be in motion 40 minutes a day
, which means that I getmovement.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (18:01):
I'm getting all sentimental now I
get movement.
I'm getting all sentimental now.
Sundra Essien (18:05):
And that's a privilege of being in Copenhagen
, right, that is such aprivilege of being here, where
you're like you know, I can hopon my bike and instead of seeing
it as like, oh, it's somethingthat I don't have because I
don't have the money to have it,I'm like it's something that I
get to do, that both is greatfor my mental and physical
health.
I can't be on a screen.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (18:25):
It's essential, absolutely it is
essential, yeah.
Sundra Essien (18:29):
Yeah, fresh air.
I get to see the city around me.
I get to do that.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (18:33):
Yeah, no , absolutely.
So.
There's a word that youmentioned degrowth.
Can you quickly explain what isdegrowth and how we should
think about it in a societythat's obsessed with infinite
growth?
Sundra Essien (18:47):
Yes, I mean, when I think of degrowth I think of
well, a couple of things.
So, on the backdrop of it, it'sjust general recognition, first
, that in a finite world wecan't have infinite growth, some
basic level.
We all recognize that there'slimits to all of this growth,
even though we constantly arepushing it.
But then degrowth looks at andthis, this strategy, can be
(19:10):
applied in any sphere.
Right now I'm talking aboutbusiness, because that's the
sphere that I'm in right now,but it just looks, it's.
It's more about justde-centering growth.
And we've kind of built ourentire economies on constant
growth.
But in some way it's almostlike a pyramid scheme where you
have to keep like recruitingmore people into it, recruiting
(19:31):
more people into it for it towork and you're like it's not
actually functioning.
You're just recruiting morepeople into it, so you don't
have to deal with theconsequences of a system that
doesn't actually work and atsome point.
we're going to bump up to thepoint where there's nothing, no
more people to recruit in thispyramid scheme, no more
resources, and we're going tolook back and say we don't
actually have a sustainablefunctioning system or economy
(19:53):
because growth just masks somany of the problems, because
you're just throwing basicallylike throwing growth and money
at it without realizing, youhave something that's incredibly
broken.
And I think, in terms ofbusiness, decentering growth
means that you can focus onother things, which means you
can clear up your, your space,your mental space, to say, like
(20:15):
what do I want this business todo besides?
Just get bigger, and it'salmost the easy thing.
What do you want to do withbusiness?
Be bigger?
It's the easy answer, we'vebeen fed.
But it's like why get bigger?
What's the purpose of that?
Are you able to do what youwant to do better when you're
bigger?
Are you able to have more freetime?
Are you able to have betterrelationships with their
employees?
Are you like what?
(20:36):
What does growth achieve foryou?
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (20:38):
and for your business?
Sundra Essien (20:47):
I think people don't ask that question enough.
They just say like, oh, that'sobviously a good business is a
business that's growing and abetter business is a business
that's growing even more, whichmeans you can have the absurd
reality that you have so manyquote unquote really successful
businesses, where I mean CEOs,are making some absurd amount of
you know exponentially moremoney than the lower level
employees who are barelyscraping by on a minimum wage or
a living wage.
You can have a completelyunequal distribution of wealth.
(21:08):
So it's looked like thecompany's getting bigger, but
that money isn't being sharedequally throughout the company,
or at all throughout the company.
It's just one man getting moreand more yachts, or the damaged
externalities to the environmentaround them.
Those are just getting bigger,intact with its growth.
That's not being accounted for.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (21:28):
It's never accounted for.
Sundra Essien (21:29):
It's never accounted for.
And if growth is our onlymeasure of whether or not
something is doing well, then wecompletely ignore all of the
other ways that they cancontribute to society, but also
ignore all of the other waysthat growth makes them damaging
to the society.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (21:45):
Right, this is Shades and Layers, and
my guest today is co-founder ofEsang's Hair and Body in
Copenhagen.
Sandra Essien spoke to us in2020, and when we first spoke,
her business had reached somelevel of stability, but then
came the COVID lockdowns, whichmeant less traffic to their
(22:06):
physical location, so they hadto switch gears Up.
Next, she tells us all abouthow this affected the trajectory
of her brand, and we also getinto the shades and layers rapid
fire.
Sundra Essien (22:18):
Uncertainty is always a bit challenging for
many people and for businessesalso.
Before that, we reached a pointwhere we could kind of predict
with some level of accuracywhat's going to happen in the
next year.
So it allows for just betterplanning and better
understanding of what's going onand better budgeting or easier
budgeting.
But then suddenly we're justthrown into a completely unknown
(22:40):
situation where we couldn'topen a physical shop.
That was really hard for usbecause prior to the pandemic we
weren't really we didn't reallyhave an online presence and we
built our reputation on peoplephysically coming into our shop,
having a relationship with us,talking to us, seeing our
production, learning about ourproducts from us, and it's a
(23:01):
very kind of face to face, oneperson at a time.
We still don't do paidadvertising, so that presented a
really big challenge for uswhen we couldn't open our
physical shop, but it alsopresented an opportunity, which
was that we sat down and said,well, how do we translate this
online?
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (23:17):
You have a much stronger online presence
.
Sundra Essien (23:19):
Yes, exactly and now I mean our entire online
presence was built in responseto the fact that we could.
We could no longer reach peoplein our physical shop because we
were closed down and we saidwe're just going to have to
translate our message and ourenergy and our vision to an
online audience.
And and how do we do that?
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (23:41):
Yeah, does that mean that you also had
to ramp up on online sales, andhow did that affect your
operations?
Sundra Essien (23:50):
It didn't really change much.
In that sense it just shifted.
We've always had three saleschannels that's our online shop,
our physical shop and then ourwholesale shop, which also runs
through our web shop online.
I mean the customers that werein our physical shop moved
online.
I know some businesses just sawthis massive uptick during
(24:10):
Corona from online sales.
We just we didn't see a hugenet gain in sales, but that's
almost shifted back.
It took a couple of years for itto shift back, but it's pretty
much shifted back to where itwas pre-corona.
It also took us a while tobuild an online project the
pandemic was well finished bythe time we cracked the code in
(24:32):
terms of what worked for usonline and started to really
build an audience.
That was well after the eye ofthe storm of the pandemic was
well passed.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (24:41):
Right, I mean, you seem to have also
become something of an educationchannel.
There's a lot of information onsustainability, fair trade, et
cetera.
Sundra Essien (24:50):
And that's what we've always been doing.
We've been information first,and sales are sort of a bonus
that comes from people gettingthe information that would be
useful for them.
Sometimes it means it's not asale and it means that people
discover that it doesn't workfor them or it doesn't make
sense for them or it's not whatthey need right now, or it's not
.
It wouldn't be useful for them,and we're perfectly okay with
(25:10):
that.
We even train our employees onthat sort of I would rather
people walk away with feelinglike, okay, now I understand
this problem better, even if itmeans that they don't walk away
with a product from us which isalso a big reason why we have
really high satisfaction andreturn levels is because we're
willing to give up a sale tohave someone get what really
(25:31):
makes sense for them.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (25:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So you're not just pushingproducts for the sake of pushing
products.
Sundra Essien (25:36):
Exactly and defocusing products, I think
works really well with our ideaof decentering growth.
A lot of it's like we'retelling about something, or
telling about a product, ortelling about what it can do
without making the and then buyit.
If all of that informationmeans that someone finds that
this makes sense for them, thenthey'll typically connect the
(25:56):
dots.
I don't have to force the dotsdown their throat and say like
but this means you need to gobuy it.
But I can say like okay, thisproduct does solves this, this
issue.
It does this and it does it inthis way, and this is the
chemistry behind it.
This is why we use this.
This is why we use theseingredients.
So I see, my role is justgiving them as much information
and then letting them decidewhat to do with that information
(26:17):
.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (26:17):
Yeah, yeah, oh sure, yeah.
So this brings me to our rapidfire.
Don't think about it, just afew questions.
What are the three milestonesthat you are proudest of at
eSanks?
Sundra Essien (26:43):
like banks or broader, bigger organizations
that would have influence onwhat I'm allowed to say or how
I'm allowed to say it, orfunders or investors.
At one point that might've feltlike a failure, that we weren't
attractive enough for people towant to give us money like
bigger investments or banks.
At one point they're like, youknow, it's too risky, and now
I'm just so happy that we'vebeen able to make this happen,
run a sustainable businessthat's profitable without them.
(27:05):
Now I don't owe anyone anything, and not in the sense of
physical money, but I don't oweanyone my silence or my
complicity.
I can say what I want, how Iwant, when I want, and I think
that feels like freedom.
And any others that you're proudof I mean, I think a lot of
them on the slightly similarvein, but in sort of more
(27:27):
practical um, that we're able to, that we've reached a
sustainable point economically.
That took a while.
That took a long timeembarrassingly long before we
could say like, okay, we're notstressed every month, we you
know it runs, while keeping allthis like where we just have all
of these almost dogma andprinciples that we've put in,
(27:47):
where we're paying, just like webuy this olive oil from
Palestine it costs 40 times thecost of olive oil that can get
organic from Italy or Greece,and but like we were able to
hold onto those principles andstill and manage to be
sustainable.
I think I'm I'm so proud of thatbecause it's something that
people would say, yeah, yeah,yeah, that's nice, you talk
about all these principles, butthat'll never work.
(28:08):
Like it's me being able to say,yeah, you know what, it did
work and it does work.
And I think that's that's amore powerful message than me
than ever, if I can say, if Iyou know, talking from the
outside, businesses should dothis, businesses should do this,
or I can keep prices low, butlike, basically, like we've
handicapped ourselves at everyturn and despite that, we're
(28:29):
able to run a business, have abusiness that works and that
runs that's amazing I'm proud ofthat you gotta hang in there,
man gotta hang and some of it'sjust just pure hanging in right
like.
It's just like if you could,just if you could just be there
for for a long enough time.
That resolves a number ofissues.
But hanging on when you know,when you're just kind of getting
(28:51):
a ram from every side, it can,it can also just be hard.
Yeah, and I don't fault anyonefor not being able to stand it,
because it is it.
I don't say I don don't.
I don't look back on it andthink like, oh, that was, that
was easy and manageable.
I look back and I think I'm soglad I didn't know what I was
gonna have to go throughbeforehand, because I don't
(29:13):
think I would have ever walkedinto it without the great
naivety yeah, ignorance is blisssometimes, yeah.
And bliss and necessary yes yes.
If I knew, then what?
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (29:29):
I know now.
So what's the hardest part ofyour job?
Sundra Essien (29:32):
Right now I'm at the stage where I'm getting to
enjoy the fruits of the labor.
Right now I feel like sort ofthis is the.
(30:05):
We've gone through all thesenarrow tunnels and now we just
opened out into a wider fieldwhere we're like, oh, because we
built it up in this kind of in,do you kind of sustain this
delicate tightrope walk whereyou know, not too much, not too
little, right at balance andkeeping out like it can feel
like a bit of a sort ofbalancing on a tightrope and
while juggling a bunch of things?
I hope none of this stuff fallsright now circus feet and I'm
like, but at some point I feellike it's not gonna feel as good
(30:27):
and easy, but right now, today,it feels yeah, yeah, take a
breath, man like it feels likewe can, and sometimes you know,
you know you almost feel likeyou can't breathe, like not that
can't breathe, but you don'tallow yourself to like this is
it's okay for it not to be likehard useful and almost feel like
(30:47):
that's how things should feel.
I feel joy going into the shop,meeting the people, like I feel
joy making content.
Now, that was not the case forthe whole time until like the
last year, a year.
Right, then like a thing I haveto like motivate and push myself
and find ideas.
But now I'm just like I have along list of ideas that I want
to find, so, okay, let me findthe.
(31:08):
I'm excited about them and yeah, yeah.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (31:13):
So if you had to write a memoir, what
would you call it and why?
Sundra Essien (31:17):
If I had to, it would definitely be something
around degrowth and sort of likejoy around degrowth or how to
get smaller or something likethat like so yeah like that, the
anti-book to the book everyoneelse.
Everyone wants to write likehow to get bigger and bigger
lives, and no one's writingportraits about people that made
it and and just don't have alot of stuff in a yeah, and it's
(31:40):
a small in small ways right.
It's almost like a celebrationof the small, the joy of small,
or something it is exactly justkind of like I don't want it to
get into the realm of, like Isaid, frou-frou, but like in,
like abstract, like verytangibly, like actively pursuing
less as a business, as a I meanjust for everything, like the
(32:02):
opposite to all the self-helpand advice that we get.
And people are like you shouldjust have money for generations.
You're like why Now you want usto like hoard money, not just
in this lifetime, but hoardmoney like for future lifetimes,
both robbing my futuregenerations of the benefits of
the process and robbing mycurrent self of the joy of
(32:26):
relaxing and enjoying the nowbecause I'm saving for 10
generations down.
I mean, all of it seems soabsurd.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (32:34):
So if we turn the movie into sorry, if
we turn the book into a movie,who would you have play lead
actress?
Sundra Essien (32:43):
I have no idea.
Oh, I don't know.
Now I'm just naming people thatI like Luke Pizzer, oh yeah,
just people that I respect and Ilike, and I think it's just
like.
Oh, but I have no idea.
I have no idea, okay.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (33:02):
No problem with that either, but uh
, if you had to have aconversation over dinner with a
famous black woman, living ordead, who would it be?
Sundra Essien (33:12):
right now I I think octavia butler.
Oh, yeah, okay, yeah yeah, anovelist she writes a lot of
sci-fi fiction, dystopian, and Ialmost think that these types
of writers are almost likefortune tellers.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (33:30):
Yeah, they're prophets.
Sundra Essien (33:34):
They are almost like, because in her writing she
was just like oh, I want to seewhere this ends.
They almost sort of take thetrajectory to its logical
conclusion and then just makestories about it, which I think
is in some way more interestingthan nonfiction in understanding
the world and the people in it.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (33:52):
I think Octavia Butler so if people want
to work with you, find outabout what you do, be inspired
by your story, where can theyfind you?
Sundra Essien (34:02):
I think social media is probably the best place
to get both get in touch withus, but also get a little
insight into who we are and whatwe stand for.
And that's at Isangs onInstagram and on TikTok and on
Facebook, and it's I-S-A-N-G-SPerfect.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (34:19):
And that is all from me today.
This episode brings it fullcircle to where it all started
Copenhagen city.
Thanks for the catch up, Sundra, and for sharing your wisdom.
I hope you had as much fun as Idid on this episode.
Thank you for listening and forsupporting the podcast for the
past 100 episode.
If you liked it and found ituseful, please share it with a
(34:39):
friend.
I'm Kutlonos Kosanarichi, anduntil next time.
Please do it with a friend.
I'm Gudwana Skwasana Ritchie,and until next time.
Please do take good care.
So that's been important for me to build
something that's a really good,high quality product that people
like, not because of ourpolitics, not because of what we
stand for, but because it'ssomething that provides actual,
tangible value to people's lives.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (00:18):
Right, hello and welcome to Shades and
Layers.
I'm your host, Kutloano SkosanaRicci , and today is a big
milestone for the podcast.
This is episode 100, and it isone to be bookmarked because it
speaks to everything that thepodcast stands for.
We love women of colorentrepreneurs, we love
sustainability, we lovemission-driven founders, and
(00:38):
we're all about impactingpeople's lives positively
through all our actions,including the businesses we
start, and so I thought there'sno better way to bring this
message across than to go fullcircle to where it started.
My guest today was featured inone of the first episodes of
Shades and Layers in June of2020, Sundra Essien, co-founder
(01:00):
of Isang's Hair and Body, aCopenhagen-based beauty supply
store that is more than meetsthe eye.
It's a platform for all theissues that plague modern
society, from fair trades tosustainability, supply chain
management and inclusion.
Since five years ago, when wefirst spoke, Sundra has some
updates and here she is on herorigin story and where Isangs
(01:22):
finds itself as a brand todayeSangs is in the simplest form,
it's just a hair and body careproduction.
Sundra Essien (01:35):
So we make hair and body care products using
organic, fair trade, veganingredients, and they're made
inside of our open productionworkshop in Copenhagen.
So that's the short, simpleexplanation.
So that's the short, simpleexplanation.
Deeper explanation is it'sactually a way for me to work on
and look at and address issuesof supply chain transparency,
(01:55):
empathy across supply chains,understanding of the products
that we use and the effects ofthe products that we use, and a
way for me to experiment withhow we can bring those issues to
the forefront and surface thecosts of our products to
consumers, but through theseproducts that we make, and we do
that in everything in terms ofin the ways that we source and
(02:19):
making those things that we do,in terms of sourcing and the
cooperatives that we source fromtransparent to our customers,
but also in the way that weproduce them in a small
production workshop, when it'sopen, where people can ask
questions and see the thingsthat are being produced.
We also run a lot of veryinformation-based business where
people have access to bothinformation about the products
(02:42):
that we use, the processes thatwe use, the philosophy and the
politics behind our products andprocesses.
Right now, one of our bigissues that really sits really
close to my heart is arounddegrowth, decentralizing growth
in a business and really justtrying to open the conversation
for businesses to talk about notgetting bigger and not growing
(03:05):
and how that's going to have tobe an important discussion in
terms of long-termsustainability.
We just try to bring up theissues that are important to us
and issues that we think areimportant in terms of broader
environmental and sustainabilityand justice context through
care and body care products.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (03:23):
So how long have you been in business
now?
Sundra Essien (03:26):
Well, we opened the shop in 2012.
So this is our teenage year.
This is where we turned 13.
But I registered the businessfirst in 2010.
So technically, the businesshas existed for 15 years.
But those first couple of yearswere just going out to markets,
(03:47):
testing the concept and seeingif we had anything that people
were at all interested in.
And then we found the physicallocation for our production and
shop in 2012.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (03:57):
Okay, so when you started out, is this
what you were aiming for to be aplatform for this discussion or
did you have a differentpicture in?
Sundra Essien (04:08):
mind.
I mean, I didn't have all ofthe details about what exactly,
how it exactly would look andhow, and at that point I had no
interest or relationship tosocial media.
So the way we bring out themessage is different than I
imagined, but the message isquite I mean, it's surprisingly
(04:30):
close to what I envisioned along time ago when I wrote our
manifesto back in 2010.
Which is that I'm, oddly enough, despite the fact that I make
hair and body care products,oddly enough, despite the fact
that I make hair and body careproducts, I'm very uninterested
in hair and body care productsor skincare or makeup in and of
(04:50):
themselves.
But I think they're a reallypowerful vehicle for addressing
change, and that's just becauseeveryone uses them.
They touch all of the issues,so it's kind of a right market
to be disruptive in, because itreally just affects everyone.
It touches everyone and theyaffect everything from
misinformation to supply chainissues, to growth issues, to
(05:11):
issues of self-esteem and bodyimage, to overconsumption
they're all packed into hair andbody care.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (05:19):
It's the meeting point, this whole
crossroads.
Sundra Essien (05:23):
It is of all the issues.
So I think it's a really it's areally great space to be in if
you want to have a platform toaddress these issues in.
Um, I don't want to say sneaky,because it sounds like there's
some deception built into it,but it's sort of a approach to
it where people aren't expectingto have the discussions about
degrowth and and justice andpolitics in a hair and body care
(05:46):
space.
So I think it disarms people abit that these are the
conversations we're havinginside of this, and that was
what I wanted to do.
I never thought that I wouldreally be able to fold out in
the way that we've really beenable to fold out in the last
couple of years in the lastcouple of years.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (06:03):
Yeah, what do you think it is that
makes your brand resonate withcustomers?
Because you've been standingfirm for the past 15 years and
seemingly thriving.
Sundra Essien (06:15):
Yeah, I mean, the thriving part has had its ups
and downs.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (06:23):
Of course it's a business, it's a
business.
Sundra Essien (06:26):
It's a business, and there have been times where
I've been way more focused onthe business aspects of it than
I'd like to, because I mean itdoes have to work as a business
concept.
Have a product that people wantto buy, that people come back
for.
So that's been important for meto build something that's a
really good, high qualityproduct that people like, not
because of our politics, notbecause of what we stand for,
(06:49):
but because it's something thatprovides actual, tangible value
to people's lives.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (06:55):
Right.
Sundra Essien (06:55):
That's the foundation of it, Because if we
don't have that, then for meit's a bit silly to talk about,
oh, overconsumption or all ofthis, but buy this product that
you don't need.
Which happens?
yes, it has no future value toyou because you like the story
that it's selling.
So in many ways we built thebusiness on the products and a
(07:29):
lot of our customers met us likeproduct first.
We solved or addressed a needthat they had, whether it be
deodorants or shampoos or bodyoils, something to deal with
these really harsh copenhagenwinters.
So so we lead first withaddressing and providing value
and then we kind of sneak in ourpolitics, um, along with those,
and I don't want to say sneakin our politics along with those
, and I don't want to say sneakin and like that, because we're
very forthcoming.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (07:49):
You've been very open about where you
stand on issues.
Sundra Essien (07:53):
About where we stand.
We're very clear about thiswe're a business, we sell this,
and these are our politics.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (07:58):
Yeah, and do you face pushback when
you push your politics?
Sundra Essien (08:02):
Not at all.
I mean surprisingly little backwhen you push your politics.
Not at all I mean surprisinglylittle, but it's probably
because most people meet us andhear our politics so early on I
think they weed themselves outif they're not interested in it.
So it's not like people expectone thing and then meet us and
then are really surprised tofind out that we support fair
(08:23):
trade cooperatives, that we workwith olive oil producers in
Palestine.
We've been doing that for thelast 12 years and we've been
open and vocal about it.
And we work with small farmercooperatives in Ghana and
women's cooperatives in Braziland salt farmers in France, and
so none of this surprises anyonewho had either come into our
(08:43):
shop or met us on social mediaor been to our website.
You get kind of confronted withthis early on, so if it's
really not their cup of tea.
People just move on.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (08:54):
But, like you say, it's all about the
product also, right.
So what makes your productseffective and have such broad
appeal?
Sundra Essien (09:02):
I mean, I think it's a number of things.
I think one of the things thatmakes them effective is that
we're really good at expectationmanaging.
We're not selling a miracle ora dream.
And in many ways we're sellingstuff that other people in
theory could also sell just highquality products at a
reasonable, affordable priceright.
It's not in that sense sorevolutionary, but we don't try
(09:22):
to claim or sell anythingrevolutionary and I think people
are really pleasantly surprisedwhen they're not met with
companies saying smear this on,and then in two seconds you know
you'll have a 15 year old childand just make more and more
absurd claims and it gets harderand harder to just trust
(09:43):
anything because like yeah, butokay, is this going to like
solve male pattern baldness withthis oil?
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (09:48):
I just rub on.
Sundra Essien (09:50):
Wouldn't that be true?
And so I think, when you'reconstantly underwhelmed and
disappointed because companiesare constantly over-promising
and we're constantly in some wayunder-promising, they're
promising.
Yeah, people are oftentimesjust like oh wow, that's, that's
really refreshing to getsomething that does what it
(10:11):
should and more, and you get alot for the for the money.
So in many ways it's a reallysimple strategy.
We just make money Goodproducts that do what they
should, made from goodingredients.
But I think most people areunfortunately trying to push out
as much money as they can outof the products, which means
they're watering down theingredients, taking as many
(10:32):
shortcuts they want as they canand then, at the same time,
constantly over-promising whatpeople are going to get, how
they're going to feel, how theirlives are going to change.
Shampoo is never going tochange your life.
It will wash your hair.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (10:46):
It will wash your hair, hopefully make
your hair cleaner than it wasbefore.
Sundra Essien (10:50):
We don't claim to help anyone deal with anything
beyond cleaning their hair withour shampoo.
We're not in your friend groupor making you happier, and we're
very vocal about saying that.
And I think that people findthat honesty refreshing and
authentic and it makes it easierfor people to be satisfied
because you're not promisingthem the world.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (11:12):
Right, right, Okay.
So, unless you're running acharity or a non-profit, your
motive for being in business isprofit.
Great.
But then the question comes howfast do you need to have that
profit reflected on your bottomline?
Well, that depends on manyfactors, but my guest today on
(11:33):
Shades and Layers, Sandra Essien, co-founder of Isang's Hair and
Body, has some thoughts on howshe's been playing the long game
.
Sundra Essien (11:40):
Our goal is to run a profitable business.
We're not a charity.
We say this often.
Then we also don't think fairtrade, a lot of sort of our
justice issues.
These shouldn't be things ofI'm doing it out of charity.
I'm doing it because it makesfor a system that functions
better for us all.
It actually makes for abusiness environment that's more
stable for also me to continueto do business in.
(12:01):
So if I'm just running to grabeverything I can at the expense
of a system that eventually willcollapse and make it a less fun
and interesting and stableworld for me to exist in, it's
also ultimately worse for mybusiness.
So in some way it's a long-termstrategy where you sacrifice
some short-term profits butwe're profitable term profits,
(12:27):
but we're profitable.
We're just not aiming to bebillionaires.
I don't have a big lifestyle.
This business probably wouldn'tafford me a huge lifestyle, but
I'm also not interested in one.
I don't have a car.
I ride a bicycle.
We live well within our meansand we have time to do all of
the other stuff that we enjoyand want to do.
So I feel in many ways morefree, but it's not money that's
providing that freedom.
(12:48):
We're at a point now where thebusiness is stable, we're able
to meet our bills and pay ouremployees and then not have to
be there all of the time, haveenough people to cover the shop
shifts.
When I set, instead of settinga floor which we also, of course
, you have to meet this, youhave to earn this much in order
(13:10):
to meet your budgets, forexample we also set ceilings and
say like, okay, when we reachthis point, we're just at
sustaining mode, we're no longerat chasing growth mode, and I
think there's a season,different seasons, for
businesses.
When you're starting out, ofcourse, you're probably going to
be in some level of growth mode.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (13:27):
Right.
Sundra Essien (13:28):
Reaching a point where you're sustainable, where
the money in covers the moneygoing out.
That's not as far off, I think,as some people are led to
believe, if your goal isn'tcontinuous growth and world
domination.
Kutloano Skosana Ric (13:42):
Absolutely so.
It's reaching that point ofknowing when enough is enough,
exactly.
So, what led you to this path,because it's a mindset.
Sundra Essien (13:52):
I've never been sort of just personally super
interested in having a whole lotof money, so that's in some way
I've inherited that from myparents, particularly my mom,
who's sort of one of her biglectures growing up is that you
know, after a certain point, Imean, everything has its
propensities After a certainpoint.
Food doesn't get better the moreyou pay for it.
(14:13):
Clothes don't get nicer the moreyou pay for them.
Over a certain point your lifedoesn't get improved over a
certain amount of money getimproved over a certain amount
of money and in some way I thinkit's not just diminishing
returns, but in some way over acertain threshold I think you
have negative returns on everyadditional money made, because
(14:33):
then it takes away from otherthings that you could be doing,
like building relationships thatactually in all of the studies
on health and happiness thosetend to be more important than
the amount of money people haveover a certain threshold, and
that threshold is kind of likebasic needs, housing, clothing,
but all the excess over that.
(14:54):
If you're spending all of yourtime gaining 20 outfits a week,
then you're cutting into yourbudget for relationships and all
of the other stuff that willlead to some genuine happiness.
So I'm fortunate enough that Iwas raised in a household where
they recognize that and werevery open and vocal about the
benefits to your generalhappiness of living below your
(15:16):
means and not building a life sobig that you have to constantly
be at, constantly a slave tomaintaining this large life
right right then you kind of canfind that point where it's like
I have enough, to where I'm notwanting for the basic needs but
I have to work a little bit toget some of the extra stuff.
Because that also provides likesome process and some learning
(15:37):
and some fun, because if younever had to work for anything,
then it's not fun having itright it takes, it sucks a lot
of the fun out of it.
So it's something about like oh,I want to take this great
vacation, but I have to save upa little bit for it.
That process, there's learningin that there's, you know,
there's also accomplishment, andyou've already gone through
(15:57):
something before you've gottenthere, which makes it a little
sweeter on the other end.
So I don't, I don't want't wantto strip myself of all the
processes and just say, oh, Ijust skip to it because I just
have infinite amounts of money.
So money doesn't, I mean itprovides something.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (16:14):
Yeah, I mean, it's that whole thing of
if you don't have friction, thenwhat's the point?
Sundra Essien (16:20):
You don't have growth.
I mean, it removes so much ofthe and it's hard to really
understand the benefits of goingthrough something to get to
something on the other side.
But I think it's reflected inso many natural processes,
everything from childbirth, likejust physically going fighting
(16:42):
through the birth canal goodthings, babies, immune systems,
and it's not.
It doesn't mean that if theydon't do that, all is lost.
But I think even in a bunch ofnatural systems we see that sort
of fighting to get chickens,when they fight to get an egg.
If you cut them out of the eggthen they won't survive.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (17:02):
Yeah, they have to struggle for it.
Sundra Essien (17:06):
Struggling out of it that strengthens their bones
and and makes them robustenough to survive on the other
side of it.
So I think money, when it, whenit kind of becomes the thing
that just cuts you out of theegg, then I think it also it can
be a bit a damage.
Yeah to us.
Yeah, having being both equipped, but also some of the happiness
(17:27):
that comes on the other side ofof earning something we don't
talk about it a lot because wefeel like everything will be
good on the other side of awhole lot of money yeah, we like
convenience though we areprimed for convenience yeah and
convenience is killing us.
it's literally killing us everyday.
I think, okay, I'm privilegedenough to live in a space where
they have bike routes and goodpublic transportation.
(17:49):
I didn't grow up in a spacelike that, and instead of
thinking like, oh, this means Ican't have a big life where I
have a nice car, I'm like I getto be in motion 40 minutes a day
, which means that I getmovement.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (18:01):
I'm getting all sentimental now I
get movement.
I'm getting all sentimental now.
Sundra Essien (18:05):
And that's a privilege of being in Copenhagen
, right, that is such aprivilege of being here, where
you're like you know, I can hopon my bike and instead of seeing
it as like, oh, it's somethingthat I don't have because I
don't have the money to have it,I'm like it's something that I
get to do, that both is greatfor my mental and physical
health.
I can't be on a screen.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (18:25):
It's essential, absolutely it is
essential, yeah.
Sundra Essien (18:29):
Yeah, fresh air.
I get to see the city around me.
I get to do that.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (18:33):
Yeah, no , absolutely.
So.
There's a word that youmentioned degrowth.
Can you quickly explain what isdegrowth and how we should
think about it in a societythat's obsessed with infinite
growth?
Sundra Essien (18:47):
Yes, I mean, when I think of degrowth I think of
well, a couple of things.
So, on the backdrop of it, it'sjust general recognition, first
, that in a finite world wecan't have infinite growth, some
basic level.
We all recognize that there'slimits to all of this growth,
even though we constantly arepushing it.
But then degrowth looks at andthis, this strategy, can be
(19:10):
applied in any sphere.
Right now I'm talking aboutbusiness, because that's the
sphere that I'm in right now,but it just looks, it's.
It's more about justde-centering growth.
And we've kind of built ourentire economies on constant
growth.
But in some way it's almostlike a pyramid scheme where you
have to keep like recruitingmore people into it, recruiting
(19:31):
more people into it for it towork and you're like it's not
actually functioning.
You're just recruiting morepeople into it, so you don't
have to deal with theconsequences of a system that
doesn't actually work and atsome point.
we're going to bump up to thepoint where there's nothing, no
more people to recruit in thispyramid scheme, no more
resources, and we're going tolook back and say we don't
actually have a sustainablefunctioning system or economy
(19:53):
because growth just masks somany of the problems, because
you're just throwing basicallylike throwing growth and money
at it without realizing, youhave something that's incredibly
broken.
And I think, in terms ofbusiness, decentering growth
means that you can focus onother things, which means you
can clear up your, your space,your mental space, to say, like
(20:15):
what do I want this business todo besides?
Just get bigger, and it'salmost the easy thing.
What do you want to do withbusiness?
Be bigger?
It's the easy answer, we'vebeen fed.
But it's like why get bigger?
What's the purpose of that?
Are you able to do what youwant to do better when you're
bigger?
Are you able to have more freetime?
Are you able to have betterrelationships with their
employees?
Are you like what?
(20:36):
What does growth achieve foryou?
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (20:38):
and for your business?
Sundra Essien (20:47):
I think people don't ask that question enough.
They just say like, oh, that'sobviously a good business is a
business that's growing and abetter business is a business
that's growing even more, whichmeans you can have the absurd
reality that you have so manyquote unquote really successful
businesses, where I mean CEOs,are making some absurd amount of
you know exponentially moremoney than the lower level
employees who are barelyscraping by on a minimum wage or
a living wage.
You can have a completelyunequal distribution of wealth.
(21:08):
So it's looked like thecompany's getting bigger, but
that money isn't being sharedequally throughout the company,
or at all throughout the company.
It's just one man getting moreand more yachts, or the damaged
externalities to the environmentaround them.
Those are just getting bigger,intact with its growth.
That's not being accounted for.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (21:28):
It's never accounted for.
Sundra Essien (21:29):
It's never accounted for.
And if growth is our onlymeasure of whether or not
something is doing well, then wecompletely ignore all of the
other ways that they cancontribute to society, but also
ignore all of the other waysthat growth makes them damaging
to the society.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (21:45):
Right, this is Shades and Layers, and
my guest today is co-founder ofEsang's Hair and Body in
Copenhagen.
Sandra Essien spoke to us in2020, and when we first spoke,
her business had reached somelevel of stability, but then
came the COVID lockdowns, whichmeant less traffic to their
(22:06):
physical location, so they hadto switch gears Up.
Next, she tells us all abouthow this affected the trajectory
of her brand, and we also getinto the shades and layers rapid
fire.
Sundra Essien (22:18):
Uncertainty is always a bit challenging for
many people and for businessesalso.
Before that, we reached a pointwhere we could kind of predict
with some level of accuracywhat's going to happen in the
next year.
So it allows for just betterplanning and better
understanding of what's going onand better budgeting or easier
budgeting.
But then suddenly we're justthrown into a completely unknown
(22:40):
situation where we couldn'topen a physical shop.
That was really hard for usbecause prior to the pandemic we
weren't really we didn't reallyhave an online presence and we
built our reputation on peoplephysically coming into our shop,
having a relationship with us,talking to us, seeing our
production, learning about ourproducts from us, and it's a
(23:01):
very kind of face to face, oneperson at a time.
We still don't do paidadvertising, so that presented a
really big challenge for uswhen we couldn't open our
physical shop, but it alsopresented an opportunity, which
was that we sat down and said,well, how do we translate this
online?
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (23:17):
You have a much stronger online presence
.
Sundra Essien (23:19):
Yes, exactly and now I mean our entire online
presence was built in responseto the fact that we could.
We could no longer reach peoplein our physical shop because we
were closed down and we saidwe're just going to have to
translate our message and ourenergy and our vision to an
online audience.
And and how do we do that?
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (23:41):
Yeah, does that mean that you also had
to ramp up on online sales, andhow did that affect your
operations?
Sundra Essien (23:50):
It didn't really change much.
In that sense it just shifted.
We've always had three saleschannels that's our online shop,
our physical shop and then ourwholesale shop, which also runs
through our web shop online.
I mean the customers that werein our physical shop moved
online.
I know some businesses just sawthis massive uptick during
(24:10):
Corona from online sales.
We just we didn't see a hugenet gain in sales, but that's
almost shifted back.
It took a couple of years for itto shift back, but it's pretty
much shifted back to where itwas pre-corona.
It also took us a while tobuild an online project the
pandemic was well finished bythe time we cracked the code in
(24:32):
terms of what worked for usonline and started to really
build an audience.
That was well after the eye ofthe storm of the pandemic was
well passed.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (24:41):
Right, I mean, you seem to have also
become something of an educationchannel.
There's a lot of information onsustainability, fair trade, et
cetera.
Sundra Essien (24:50):
And that's what we've always been doing.
We've been information first,and sales are sort of a bonus
that comes from people gettingthe information that would be
useful for them.
Sometimes it means it's not asale and it means that people
discover that it doesn't workfor them or it doesn't make
sense for them or it's not whatthey need right now, or it's not
.
It wouldn't be useful for them,and we're perfectly okay with
(25:10):
that.
We even train our employees onthat sort of I would rather
people walk away with feelinglike, okay, now I understand
this problem better, even if itmeans that they don't walk away
with a product from us which isalso a big reason why we have
really high satisfaction andreturn levels is because we're
willing to give up a sale tohave someone get what really
(25:31):
makes sense for them.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (25:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So you're not just pushingproducts for the sake of pushing
products.
Sundra Essien (25:36):
Exactly and defocusing products, I think
works really well with our ideaof decentering growth.
A lot of it's like we'retelling about something, or
telling about a product, ortelling about what it can do
without making the and then buyit.
If all of that informationmeans that someone finds that
this makes sense for them, thenthey'll typically connect the
(25:56):
dots.
I don't have to force the dotsdown their throat and say like
but this means you need to gobuy it.
But I can say like okay, thisproduct does solves this, this
issue.
It does this and it does it inthis way, and this is the
chemistry behind it.
This is why we use this.
This is why we use theseingredients.
So I see, my role is justgiving them as much information
and then letting them decidewhat to do with that information
(26:17):
.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (26:17):
Yeah, yeah, oh sure, yeah.
So this brings me to our rapidfire.
Don't think about it, just afew questions.
What are the three milestonesthat you are proudest of at
eSanks?
Sundra Essien (26:43):
like banks or broader, bigger organizations
that would have influence onwhat I'm allowed to say or how
I'm allowed to say it, orfunders or investors.
At one point that might've feltlike a failure, that we weren't
attractive enough for people towant to give us money like
bigger investments or banks.
At one point they're like, youknow, it's too risky, and now
I'm just so happy that we'vebeen able to make this happen,
run a sustainable businessthat's profitable without them.
(27:05):
Now I don't owe anyone anything, and not in the sense of
physical money, but I don't oweanyone my silence or my
complicity.
I can say what I want, how Iwant, when I want, and I think
that feels like freedom.
And any others that you're proudof I mean, I think a lot of
them on the slightly similarvein, but in sort of more
(27:27):
practical um, that we're able to, that we've reached a
sustainable point economically.
That took a while.
That took a long timeembarrassingly long before we
could say like, okay, we're notstressed every month, we you
know it runs, while keeping allthis like where we just have all
of these almost dogma andprinciples that we've put in,
(27:47):
where we're paying, just like webuy this olive oil from
Palestine it costs 40 times thecost of olive oil that can get
organic from Italy or Greece,and but like we were able to
hold onto those principles andstill and manage to be
sustainable.
I think I'm I'm so proud of thatbecause it's something that
people would say, yeah, yeah,yeah, that's nice, you talk
about all these principles, butthat'll never work.
(28:08):
Like it's me being able to say,yeah, you know what, it did
work and it does work.
And I think that's that's amore powerful message than me
than ever, if I can say, if Iyou know, talking from the
outside, businesses should dothis, businesses should do this,
or I can keep prices low, butlike, basically, like we've
handicapped ourselves at everyturn and despite that, we're
(28:29):
able to run a business, have abusiness that works and that
runs that's amazing I'm proud ofthat you gotta hang in there,
man gotta hang and some of it'sjust just pure hanging in right
like.
It's just like if you could,just if you could just be there
for for a long enough time.
That resolves a number ofissues.
But hanging on when you know,when you're just kind of getting
(28:51):
a ram from every side, it can,it can also just be hard.
Yeah, and I don't fault anyonefor not being able to stand it,
because it is it.
I don't say I don don't.
I don't look back on it andthink like, oh, that was, that
was easy and manageable.
I look back and I think I'm soglad I didn't know what I was
gonna have to go throughbeforehand, because I don't
(29:13):
think I would have ever walkedinto it without the great
naivety yeah, ignorance is blisssometimes, yeah.
And bliss and necessary yes yes.
If I knew, then what?
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (29:29):
I know now.
So what's the hardest part ofyour job?
Sundra Essien (29:32):
Right now I'm at the stage where I'm getting to
enjoy the fruits of the labor.
Right now I feel like sort ofthis is the.
(30:05):
We've gone through all thesenarrow tunnels and now we just
opened out into a wider fieldwhere we're like, oh, because we
built it up in this kind of in,do you kind of sustain this
delicate tightrope walk whereyou know, not too much, not too
little, right at balance andkeeping out like it can feel
like a bit of a sort ofbalancing on a tightrope and
while juggling a bunch of things?
I hope none of this stuff fallsright now circus feet and I'm
like, but at some point I feellike it's not gonna feel as good
(30:27):
and easy, but right now, today,it feels yeah, yeah, take a
breath, man like it feels likewe can, and sometimes you know,
you know you almost feel likeyou can't breathe, like not that
can't breathe, but you don'tallow yourself to like this is
it's okay for it not to be likehard useful and almost feel like
(30:47):
that's how things should feel.
I feel joy going into the shop,meeting the people, like I feel
joy making content.
Now, that was not the case forthe whole time until like the
last year, a year.
Right, then like a thing I haveto like motivate and push myself
and find ideas.
But now I'm just like I have along list of ideas that I want
to find, so, okay, let me findthe.
(31:08):
I'm excited about them and yeah, yeah.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (31:13):
So if you had to write a memoir, what
would you call it and why?
Sundra Essien (31:17):
If I had to, it would definitely be something
around degrowth and sort of likejoy around degrowth or how to
get smaller or something likethat like so yeah like that, the
anti-book to the book everyoneelse.
Everyone wants to write likehow to get bigger and bigger
lives, and no one's writingportraits about people that made
it and and just don't have alot of stuff in a yeah, and it's
(31:40):
a small in small ways right.
It's almost like a celebrationof the small, the joy of small,
or something it is exactly justkind of like I don't want it to
get into the realm of, like Isaid, frou-frou, but like in,
like abstract, like verytangibly, like actively pursuing
less as a business, as a I meanjust for everything, like the
(32:02):
opposite to all the self-helpand advice that we get.
And people are like you shouldjust have money for generations.
You're like why Now you want usto like hoard money, not just
in this lifetime, but hoardmoney like for future lifetimes,
both robbing my futuregenerations of the benefits of
the process and robbing mycurrent self of the joy of
(32:26):
relaxing and enjoying the nowbecause I'm saving for 10
generations down.
I mean, all of it seems soabsurd.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (32:34):
So if we turn the movie into sorry, if
we turn the book into a movie,who would you have play lead
actress?
Sundra Essien (32:43):
I have no idea.
Oh, I don't know.
Now I'm just naming people thatI like Luke Pizzer, oh yeah,
just people that I respect and Ilike, and I think it's just
like.
Oh, but I have no idea.
I have no idea, okay.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (33:02):
No problem with that either, but uh
, if you had to have aconversation over dinner with a
famous black woman, living ordead, who would it be?
Sundra Essien (33:12):
right now I I think octavia butler.
Oh, yeah, okay, yeah yeah, anovelist she writes a lot of
sci-fi fiction, dystopian, and Ialmost think that these types
of writers are almost likefortune tellers.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (33:30):
Yeah, they're prophets.
Sundra Essien (33:34):
They are almost like, because in her writing she
was just like oh, I want to seewhere this ends.
They almost sort of take thetrajectory to its logical
conclusion and then just makestories about it, which I think
is in some way more interestingthan nonfiction in understanding
the world and the people in it.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (33:52):
I think Octavia Butler so if people want
to work with you, find outabout what you do, be inspired
by your story, where can theyfind you?
Sundra Essien (34:02):
I think social media is probably the best place
to get both get in touch withus, but also get a little
insight into who we are and whatwe stand for.
And that's at Isangs onInstagram and on TikTok and on
Facebook, and it's I-S-A-N-G-SPerfect.
Kutloano Skosana Ricci (34:19):
And that is all from me today.
This episode brings it fullcircle to where it all started
Copenhagen city.
Thanks for the catch up, Sundra, and for sharing your wisdom.
I hope you had as much fun as Idid on this episode.
Thank you for listening and forsupporting the podcast for the
past 100 episode.
If you liked it and found ituseful, please share it with a
(34:39):
friend.
I'm Kutlonos Kosanarichi, anduntil next time.
Please do it with a friend.
I'm Gudwana Skwasana Ritchie,and until next time.
Please do take good care.
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