Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello and welcome to
Shades and Layers.
I'm your host, kukwanosKosanarichi, and today my guest
is creative social entrepreneurBalisa Sikomutsomutsumi.
Balisa is the founder of thecreative consultancy and agency
Simatsatsa Library.
Among their many activities topromote an inclusive arts scene
in South Africa, they alsocurate experiences and
(00:26):
gatherings for the art world anduse dialogue as a tool for
education.
In today's conversation, we getinto Balisa's journey from
corporate worker to owner of asocial enterprise, as well as
her journey through the artscenes of the South African
cities of Bloemfontein, capeTown and Johannesburg.
We also discuss her latestproject called Hashtag that's
(00:49):
what she Said an annualfundraising drive that honors
black women in the creative arts.
There are many gems of wisdomand knowledge in today's
discussion Bonus if you'recurious about how to make it as
a creative entrepreneur and so,without further ado, let's get
into Balalesa SekhomotsoMutsumi's story.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
My name is Palesa
Sekhomotso Mutsumi.
I was born and bred inBloemfontein in South Africa.
I am the founder of SematasaLibrary, which is a creative
consultancy and agency that Istarted in 2013.
Out of sheer luck, I didn'tthink it was going to be a
(01:36):
creative consultancy.
I was just interested in art asa way to kind of have
conversations and break some ofthe barriers that we find in, so
to speak, the art world, and soI started having this idea of
bringing people together, havingconversations about art, you
know, dialoguing around whatcould be some of the
(01:58):
possibilities that could shapeour story as a nation, as a
country, as people.
So I just yeah, I startedSumataza Library out of just the
passion for talking to peopleand artists and creators in
general.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
And when you say art,
are we talking classical
painting in an art gallery?
You know music.
What do you mean by art?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's broadly become a
little bit more than just
visual art.
For me now it started being inthe realm of visual art and
talking about art as a visualcommunication tool, but I then
started to think about art asexpression, art as music, art as
music, art as fashion, design,architecture.
(02:46):
So those are things that kindof built into weaving what is
now my kind of career, which isin the arts, which is in the
creative arts.
So I think, to answer yourquestion, because I always get
this question about art and whatdoes it mean I think art is
life and for me it's everythingthat is around us, everything
(03:09):
that we can see, feel and alsohear and also sometimes have a
feeling about.
And so, yeah, for me art iseverything at the moment for me,
yeah, and what's the coreactivity that you engage in?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
What do you guys do
within this space?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
So we do several
things.
One, we try and educate peopleabout art through curating
experiences and also gatherings,and then the second thing that
we do is to try and activatespaces with dialogues and
conversations, like I said, andthose are the two primary
(03:49):
activities that we've kind ofendeavored to create in the past
few years.
But before then I used to dabblea lot in what they call arts
practitioners, which is tocreate workshops and empowerment
tools for the creativeindustries, so toolkits that
(04:10):
could talk to your young and upand coming artists to create a
better career for themselves.
So those are the things that Iused to do in the background as
an arts practitioner.
But moving now into my career,I've kind of been interested in
curating, broadly speaking, as aplace where I can explore and
experiment with differentconcepts and ideas and get
(04:33):
influenced by a lot of writersand creatives in the space.
So that's what I primarily doon a daily basis.
It sounds a little bit airy andfairy, but a lot of the things
that we do on a daily basis isto talk to people and hear their
stories and understand wherethey're coming from and trying
(04:54):
to kind of make sense of that.
But what's?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
your main purpose
with this work?
What are you trying to achieve?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Now that I've been in
the industry, now that I've
seen and heard and experienced alot of things, my purpose right
now is to be the work that I'mdoing, even through Samadzadza,
has totally changed over time,and I think it has to do with
also me as a person.
The purpose has to be biggerthan just me, and I think the
(05:22):
purpose is to bring a communitytogether and kind of find a way
to speak about issues in aconstructive manner.
I think that's where I'm at atthe moment is to find a way to
kind of create a specific spaceand place for everyone to feel
included and also find solutionsthat could better the industry.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Okay, and you focus
on empowering youth and women of
color.
Do you have any examples thatyou could say well, this was a
success for Smarts at theLibrary.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
There's so many, I
think.
I think there's just so manyexamples, but I think for me,
it's seeing the transformationthat has happened over time in
the last couple of years when itcomes to representation and the
way in which women have movedinto this space and taken
ownership of their careers andtheir story.
(06:21):
So one of the projects that Imentioned to you, I think,
several times when I wasstarting to think about just the
next kind of step towards whatI'd like to do in my future, was
to actually build a platformfor women who are in the visual
arts and that's called that'swhat she Said Hashtag.
That's what she Said and reallylike it's a concept that I've
(06:43):
been really working on for thepast seven years give or take,
which was from a researchproject, also with another
organization in South Africa,where we try to find ways or
solutions to some of theproblems or some of the things
that we face in this space.
So it started as a passionproject and now it's blossoming
(07:07):
into a platform where I can seeother younger, emerging artists
who are women, who create art,coming and being supported in
ways in which I could have neverimagined.
So the idea has grown bigger.
We have hosted two dinners toraise funds for younger artists,
(07:27):
who happen to be also women, oreven people who identify as
women.
We kind of also want toengageasa Library's activities.
Without even me thinking a lotabout it, it's just happened to
(07:49):
be there.
It's an organic development.
Yes, it's very organic andthat's also something I believe
in is that sometimes you wantthings to happen so quickly, yet
you know, life has its own kindof flow and it happened
organically that I fell intothis idea and now we have people
who are backing us phenomenalartists who have been honored in
(08:11):
the process Because it's reallyabout giving back.
It's really about honoring theprevious generation and giving
back to the next generation ofwomen artists and also just
trying to transform the spacewithout it being too, without
overthinking about it, because Ithink a lot of the things we
overthink it.
And then also just like thefinancial benefits of having
(08:36):
someone really like tap you onthe shoulder and say, hey,
you're doing well and I thinkyou deserve to have this type of
support means a lot to someonewho's coming into the industry,
so you could say it's acrowdfunding initiative.
That is really like growingbigger and better.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yeah, so is it like a
grant or do you have specific
things that the artists need touse the money for?
You know what do they typicallydo?
And, yeah, just share one ofthe stories, I think for for for
2023.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
The idea was to have
the artists that we celebrate
nominate an artist, but becausewe've kind of transformed it as
well into something thatorganically has transformed,
people have now now come in, orcommunity members, people that
we regard as our supporters havecome forward and said we'd like
(09:31):
to be involved.
How can we get involved and howcan we nominate these artists
to be part of this journey?
And so, as it stands, we dohave a selection process.
So last 2024, the edition thatwe had we obviously looked at
what kind of artist is beingsupported.
So the artist who was honoredthis year was Mary Sebande, and
(09:55):
she had a certain kind of ideaaround who she wanted to
nominate, and so we always givethe agency, the owners to the
artist that we honor, to decide,and that's the number one
criteria.
You know, we always want to havelike a criteria of a long list
of things that we want to sayabout this particular artist,
(10:16):
but I think that the honest partof it is that we actually give
the person we honoring the honorto nominate the person that
she'd like to do also give backto.
So that's really our criteria Interms of selecting the honorary
artists that we honor everyyear.
It's really about two things,and that's international acclaim
(10:38):
, how well the artist has donein terms of representing South
Africa, and how well have theydone that, whether it might not
be competitions or winning, youknow, prizes, but also just
representing us as a nation, asa country, and I think Mary did
that very well when she wasquite young and also has done
(10:59):
that like consistently.
And so the second part is alsothe fact that the issues that
the artist tackles you know someof the things that they deal
with, the material issues thatthe artist deals with is very
important to kind of also givegrounding to the kind of work
that they create.
(11:21):
So those are the things that welook at.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
What kind of issues
have been highlighted?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
So yeah, so I was
going to say last year we had
Zanella Moholi, nandi Pamtamboand Usha Sujaram.
We honoured those three artistsbecause we couldn't pick one
person.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
We were just not Well
.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
they're very topical
we couldn't pick any.
You know we were just like Ican't just imagine picking
zanelle over nandi, pa over usha.
So all of them, yeah, and Ithink the artists highlight a
lot of you know issues Ushadeals with you know domesticity
(12:10):
in her work, like how well havewe?
Kind of she works with materialthat would obviously you'd find
in the household, in anyhousehold, and she really like
makes the space become extremelydifferent from what you would
expect you know an iron or pegsto do, but she kind of activates
(12:31):
a space and you think out ofthe box about it.
Obviously, zanelle, with justher, her topical ideas around
just colorism, our bodies, youknow just a lot of things that
we as black bodies experience ona daily basis and also just
beyond representation with thelgbtiq plus community.
(12:51):
So that's also something thatI'm very passionate about, and
also I've enjoyed her work overthe years, not only as a friend,
but also somebody that hasalways been very generous with
their work and their mentorshipto young people.
And then the third thing isjust Nandipa.
Obviously I just yeah, I'vebeen very touched by her work
(13:14):
over the years as a young personand because I'm generally not
somebody that talks about my artjourney, in terms of how I got
into art, nandipa probably wasone of the first black women
I've ever experienced in agallery as a young, you know,
high school girl.
Wow, that's quite an impression.
Yeah, it kind of created a verybig impression in my life and I
(13:37):
think also with other people aswell, because of the kind of
work that she's produced.
So that was last year and youknow I've written just like
broadly about it in terms of whywe chose those three women.
But with this year it wasdifferent because I kind of felt
like, or we kind of felt likeMary had kind of become such a
(14:01):
big force in the industry withher character, sophie.
Sophie and what that meant andhow everybody just took on with,
you know, took that image andowned it for themselves.
So that's when we kind ofchimed into this idea of getting
Mary to be honored this yearand she was quite keen and happy
(14:21):
and very humbled by the wholething.
And so that's how the organicpart of it happened.
It's just these organicrelationships between artists
and curators and writers andpeople that are in the industry
who also feel strongly abouttheir work.
And so next year obviouslyit'll be another process again
(14:44):
of trying to think about who isthis person that could also hold
space, not necessarily in thesame way that all the other
honorary artists have done, butalso brings a different kind of
aesthetic and a voice thatprobably would speak to what we
stand for as a platform.
So, unfortunately, because wedon't invite everyone, it's
(15:06):
quite small and intimate 30people get to experience that
whole dinner and we raise thefunds and we put it up for an
emerging artist to come and justbless us with a lot of what
they have as a young artist.
So that's really, in a nutshell, what we're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
And do you have a
typical amount or goal that you
set, that you know this year weneed to raise so much because it
will be meaningful in this andthat way, or do you just, you
know, wait and see what you get?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
So last year we
obviously were starting, so we
obviously had a very bigresponsibility to get that going
.
So last year we really just gavea nominal fee from everything
that we had raised, but it wasgreat to see the transformation
of having to give anotheryounger artist.
(16:00):
You know some of the proceedsthis year.
We had a very good support.
We had people coming andsupporting and pledging and
donating just a lot of theirtime but also a lot of their own
funds to a particular groupthat Mary is part of and that's
(16:22):
called Occupying the Gallery.
So that was part of thementoring that Mary and her
husband, lawrence Limawana, arepart of and they mentor young
artists.
So that's part of why I thinkthis year was successful,
because this year we got to atleast see the impact of the
raising of the funds, of theefforts and also just the kind
(16:45):
of ways in which we can alsothink about the model, think
about the approach, try to seewho else we can also engage,
whether it be a particularartist who's mentoring younger
people or maybe even engagingyounger artists to be on this
journey with us.
So it's really trying to seewhat works and what doesn't work
(17:07):
, and that's the beauty of it isthat it's still early, but
we're able to throw in one ideaor throw out one idea and try to
make it work in one way oranother.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Hey, it's Shades and
Layers.
In the next part of ourconversation, we talk about
social entrepreneurship andimpact.
Balisa also talks about herjourney to finding her place and
being a confident player in theart world.
She also takes a moment toacknowledge some of the people
who were there for her as shetried to find her feet.
So you are a social enterprise,yeah.
(17:49):
So why is that an important?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
business model.
Wow, I think I get why a lot ofpeople think when you're a
social entrepreneur, you'reprobably not interested in money
.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
I beg to differ, but
yes, I beg to differ, but yes,
yes Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
But essentially I am
interested in making a
difference, but also I'minterested in how we make that
difference.
So, yes, I'm interested inmaking money at the same time,
but I'm also interested to wakethe world up about certain
things that obviously would nototherwise be discussed, and
(18:26):
that's why I started SamanthaLibrary.
Even though I like to focus onwomen of color and young people,
because that's the biggestdemographic group in South
Africa that is obviously goingto be disadvantaged on some
level or another, I always alsofeel that I'm part of that group
At some point.
I was a young person who wasalso struggling with certain
(18:49):
things, and I also became partof a group of young women who
are women of color who are ableto shape the world that they're
living in.
So I became more of a socialentrepreneur by accident,
because I was never reallyinterested in being an artist
only.
I was always thinking about artas a business, art as a vehicle,
(19:12):
art as a tool, and I thinkthat's why I started the company
that I have now, or the brand,because obviously people
associate me with the brand.
But I never really held ontothe idea of just being an artist
.
Because I also love art, I alsowent and did my own art
activities in high school andalso in varsity, but I was never
(19:36):
really interested in just art,and I think that's why I opted
the entrepreneurial route asopposed to having this art
background as well.
So yeah, I think you are right.
I'm not only interested in justmaking a difference.
I also am interested in havingan economic influence into my
(19:57):
own decisions as a person andalso the community that I come
from.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
And how have you kept
your business going?
I mean, you started in 2013.
It's actually very rare forbusinesses to survive such a
long time, especially like inthe creative arts.
So how have you kept the lightson?
You know what has helped.
If you can just share that.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Hmm, I think I had to
really sacrifice a lot.
I don't have children and Idon't have a working kind of
family life where I have to be amom, a wife, a partner and all
of that.
In most cases, somebody like mewho's in their mid-30s would
(20:44):
have had that kind of experiencein their 20s where they've had
to kind of get married, havekids and et cetera, et cetera.
But I never planned on thishappening.
I think it was more of aserendipitous way of things
shaping how I took the decisionto start my business and how
it's just transformed me firstof all.
(21:05):
So when I started I was reallyin corporate In Cape Town.
I was really not happy withwhere I was in my life.
I struggled a lot with thecorporate environment then and I
decided that I would just takeeverything I had and start
Simatata.
And that journey, that decision, changed who I was completely
(21:28):
and people thought I was stupid.
You know, just the whole ideaof starting a business at 25, 26
was something that people werelike are you crazy?
What are you going to do?
What's your parachute?
What's your plan?
You know, are you going to havea parachute?
Are you going to survive inCape Town and all of that.
But I had support.
(21:49):
I had people that reallysupported the idea and the
business from the start up untilmaybe 2017, 2018, when I
actually officially left theWestern Cape and that was only
because of my own decision thatI felt like I was just stuck, in
a way, in Cape Town.
I wasn't growing, I didn't feellike the art world was moving
(22:11):
at a pace that I wanted it to be, and I had this urge that I
wanted to start a gallery.
I wanted to be part of acommercial system that could
make money for myself and alsoartists, and that environment
kind of frustrated me, and so Ijust decided to take another
leap again and leave a city thatI love and cared for to start
(22:33):
again in my own hometown.
Thinking about these ideas wasvery hard for me, because I
thought why do we have all thesethings that happen in other
centers like Cape Town andJoburg and not where I come from
?
And so I then took a leap, tookwhat I had and jumped again and
went to Bloemfontein, and forme that also changed how I
(22:55):
looked at art, because then Istarted to interact with local
artists who had barely, you know, even gone out of where they
came from, but had good, goodwork and talent, and I stayed
there for about two, three yearsthinking about you know just
how powerful it would be to havesomething that could interact
with them.
So, yeah, I think for me it'sto answer your question it has
(23:20):
been really hard at times tokind of put the lights on.
It has been very great on apersonal development level where
I've had to really grow intothis person that I am now yeah,
resilient and all of that.
But it is harder if you aresomeone who cares for people as
(23:41):
much as I do and wants to seethem progress in a space that is
completely different from otherplaces, right?
So I kind of felt like in thattime, in that era of my life, I
felt that as a Black woman inthe free state, there was only
so much I could do for thecommunity that I was looking out
(24:05):
for and also looking to gainfrom at the same time, and so I
decided to take, you know, thenext leap of really just looking
at my life and focusing on someof the things that would
broaden my horizon and broadenmy paycheck and make life easier
for me as well.
So I then moved to Joburg,which was always something that
(24:28):
people thought of when they sawme.
Every time they would engagewith me in Bloemfontein or they
would come into Bloemfontein orCape Town and would say why
would you not want to move toJohannesburg?
And yeah, the tough decision tomove from Joburg with my
business was made and I moved toJohannesburg.
(24:50):
For that reason.
I won't get into much detail interms of how tough it was, but
it was really tough to be inJoburg and not know anybody from
the get go.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
And.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I think for me know
anybody from the get-go and I
think for me what made merealize a deeper part of it is
that I wasn't really familiarwith how things are in
Johannesburg as a space and as acultural hub.
I was naive and I thought Icould go anywhere, do anything,
and Joburg is very differentfrom a lot of cities and anybody
(25:25):
that has been there for a longtime will tell you that Joburg
is a very tough city to crack.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Swallows people.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, you know, and
you know one good I wouldn't say
she's a friend, but one goodacquaintance.
When I worked in Cape Town forthe first time with a client, my
very first big client said tome if you really want to make it
in Joburg, just make friendswith the right people who will
protect you and guide you andmake your life easier in the
(25:58):
city.
And I took that advice and Ithink I wouldn't say I made it a
conscious thing where I wouldsort out people that would make
my life easier in the city.
But I think they kind of cameon their own and I also
gravitated towards them.
And some of those people arestill in my life and they still
encourage me to this day.
(26:18):
And those are artists that Ihold dear.
And one of them was BenonLutaya, who passed on a long
time ago, who was very specialto me and very special as a
person because he gave me a verybig opportunity that kind of
made some kind of a differencein my art career and, yeah, and
(26:43):
encouraged me and saw somethingin me that would make me feel
welcome in Johannesburg.
I think also the other thing isthat we try to make Joburg sound
so scary, I mean, at least frommy understanding, I feel like
Joburg is more of a place thatyou find yourself.
You find yourself, you know, Ifound myself in very large ways.
(27:09):
I got to curate a talks programin one of the art fairs in
Johannesburg, which was a verybig thing for me.
I mean, I felt very low at thatpoint in my career, to be
honest, and I think this is thefirst time I even speak about it
, because it was a verydifferent time for me mentally
and I tried so hard to kind ofbe like you know, play to the
entire curating and doing thething.
(27:32):
That is just phenomenal forpeople who are like me, you know
, who come from a very differentbackground.
So when I got into this space, Ifelt extremely overwhelmed.
You know, right now, I think,when I look back, people often
say how did it feel, you know,to kind of do something that put
(27:55):
maybe a little bit of asprinkle in your career?
I feel like very differentabout it.
I feel like I should have donea lot more experimental work in
terms of just breaking thebarriers around art, even though
I tried to do it as much aspossible.
And I see that a lot of peopleare taking those experimental
(28:18):
steps to create a better,inclusive environment and I'm
happy about that.
To be honest, I'm really happyabout that.
But if I had it my way, I wouldhave done it differently.
Those are the moments thatobviously speak to keeping the
lights on.
That was one moment of keepingSamath Sasa alive as a place
(28:40):
that I had started, you know, along time ago and for someone or
a platform to recognize me inthat way was very big People
that I'd never actually thoughtI would ever work with in such
an intimate, personal way.
That was a huge thing for me.
The other parts that kept thelights on were really in Joburg
(29:01):
specifically, were really peoplethat trusted me outside of the
commercial work that is, thebusiness side of it.
It's more organizations thatwanted me to come and, you know,
impart my own knowledge aroundcertain topics, engaging me on
certain platforms, speaking inengagements, research different
(29:26):
parts of my own kind ofinterests when it comes to
writing, when it comes toconceptual ideas.
I'm now finding that I'm in thecommercial space again, you
know, and now it's just becomingclearer and clearer why I had
to kind of work in a specificmanner in order to be in a
(29:48):
commercial space again.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah, and I mean you
keep talking about inclusivity,
inclusion, etc.
And, having started thisorganization 10 years ago, what
transformation have you seensince you started out compared
to what's going on now?
What's improved, what stillneeds work?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
So it's a good
question, because that's
something that is veryinteresting is that sometimes
you do work that people think ispioneering.
I mean, you would know this interms of just the landscape of
work that happens, the time thatthings happen.
I'll tell you that thetransformation that I've seen is
(30:29):
that when I started as an artspractitioner I had no idea I
would be curating.
I think for me that wasfar-fetched.
I always felt like curating wassuch a huge responsibility.
I always felt it was part of amuseum structure that was very
far from what I was doing andpeople kept on thinking about me
(30:51):
or thinking with me aboutcurating and saying, oh, you're
a curator, maybe you should trycurating, study, curating, all
of those things.
But I never really thoughtabout it as a career.
I always felt me and curatingwere very far from each other,
but I felt very inclined to thebusiness side.
(31:11):
So the transformation that I'veseen in South Africa now is just
the amount of talented youngblack women who are curating,
who are taking over spaces, whoare redefining curating in a
different way.
I mean you, your experience asa producer and a cultural person
(31:33):
in the industry that is alsosomething that is taking shape
in a very big way is that peopleare taking on this producer hat
and making it into somethingvery big for themselves, and
that is a very huge step interms of how, economically, the
whole industry has transformed.
Industry has transformed.
(31:57):
You know, women are nowstarting to have really big
roles in institutions when itcomes to just being curatorial
heads, curatorial directors,curatorial visionaries, and I
think that's very important forone for me it's very important
because I never saw it when Istarted at least that wasn't my
experience and just theinspiration that I could also
(32:18):
call myself a curator in thefuture is something that has
kind of made me think about whatis curating actually?
You know what?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
does it mean?
Speaker 2 (32:28):
to be a curator in
South Africa now?
And how is it that I get tocall myself a curator and not
what I usually call myself,which is an arts practitioner?
And what are the difference?
What is the difference betweenbeing an arts practitioner and
being a curator?
And I think, to be fair, I usedto call myself an arts
practitioner because I felt theneed to over-explain the working
(32:53):
part of it, the need to over.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Explain the working
part of it.
You know like you need to workin this industry.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah I understand, yeah, yeah,
so that you can, you know, berecognized and be, you know, be
promoted, and you know so when Ikind of left that title and I
referred to myself as somebodythat curates, or curates
experiences and gatherings anddialogues, I started to think
about it in a very different wayand now I'm very proud to call
(33:26):
myself one of the curators inSouth Africa who obviously run a
specific company and who arepassionate about young people
and are passionate abouttransforming how we look at art,
not only for the elite and thepeople that buy into it, but
also how we can actually make ita career that is sustainable at
(33:48):
the same time.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yeah, so is that a
possibility for young artists in
South Africa now to have asustainable career?
Say more.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
You know, I think
because we've always thought
about being in the industry as aburdensome thing, where people
kind of go into it and think, oh, I'm going to be an artist and
it's going to take me a longtime to be very wealthy and
successful.
And I've seen that there is alot of possibility for artists
(34:17):
to make it if and when they makethe right kind of decisions or
when they meet the right kind ofpeople and the people that will
make them realize how importantit is to have a sustainable
career.
I was reading a story a few daysago, I think, of one of these
amazing artists that we have inSouth Africa, and instead of me
(34:39):
thinking about their work in theworld and what they do and what
they've done, I kind of startedto think about what kind of
influence they have on youngerartists who are now coming up.
And the reason why it is soimportant to have that kind of
conversation is that most of usdon't have role models that
(35:00):
could say it's okay to be acurator, it's okay to be a
full-time artist, it's okay tobe an art teacher or an art
practitioner, because we'venever really trusted in this art
thing as much as we trust othercareers and that's been the
narrative across the board,across generations.
(35:20):
So I think, because we haveexamples that are doing work
that is phenomenal and that'ssustainable, it's possible to
have a career for many, manyyears and still survive and
still have all the benefits ofbeing a cultural worker.
The dynamic part of it is thatthe structures and the things
(35:42):
that support artists has to go.
A lot more has to be worked onin South Africa and also in the
world, but I think there's ahuge potential for artists to
have sustainable careers becausewe have examples now that we
can refer to.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, attitudes have
changed, of course also.
I mean, when I entered thecultural space, it was just a
foreign concept to even thinkabout having a career in arts
and culture.
So it's attitude.
But also, you know, let's talkabout measuring success, right?
So how do you measure successas an institution?
(36:20):
And also, how do you encouragethe artists that you support to
think about what success means?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
I think for me, let's
say, for example, we talk about
an artist like WilliamKentridge and obviously very
well known, very highly adored,also quite affluent and has
influenced a lot of artists andhas had a very successful,
sustainable career.
And for me, I always pick outWilliam Kentridge in a lot of my
(36:48):
interactions because I alsoeducate young people about the
ways in which they can navigatetheir careers and the things
that they can do to make itsustainable, learning from other
artists who have done it before.
For me, I think, when you're anartist and you have a gallery
representation, that does notonly mean you're going to be in
(37:11):
a gallery representationalstructure forever, so you have
to build everything around yourbrand.
Everything around what you dohas to have some sort of
business model and you have tothink about it in a way that a
doctor would think about theirbusiness as a health
practitioner what are the thingsthat you do on a daily basis
(37:34):
that could propel you to success?
And for me, when I advise youngpeople, when I speak to them,
when I lecture on certain topics, I always pick out also Black
women who have done it before,that have been sustainable in
their careers.
It might not be a straight line,but it has its own bumps and
(37:55):
challenges.
However, I'm always cognizantof the fact that one has to
think about themselves as abusiness.
If I'm not writing, what elsecan I do?
If I'm not speaking, what elsecan I do that could make me have
more income or make me havesome sort of advantage, you know
, in terms of leveraging mynetworks, leveraging some of the
(38:16):
things that I've learned overthe years.
So I'm always giving advicefrom that point of view, and
somebody like William Kentridgehas always been somebody that
I've looked at as an examplethat keeps on having such a
phenomenal career within film,within visual arts, within
branding, within working withcorporate, with art institutions
(38:38):
, with producing work that isabsolutely transformative.
You know, everything that hedoes is about making whatever
story he's trying to tell to bepart of something that's not
easily fabricated, you know, oreasily done.
You know he's very, very goodat conceptual thinking.
(38:59):
He knows what he's doing and Ithink that's what I try to
impart to some of the peoplethat I speak to, somebody that I
also have mentioned before,zanella Moholi, and how she has
kept on producing books andphotographs and using her body
and, you know, speaking atevents and doing all sorts of
(39:20):
things that could also make herlife and her art sustainable.
So I think all these artists forme are very much.
I mean Zanelle.
One of my favorite favoritepieces of her work is a film
called A Difficult Love, and Ialways talk about it to her and
she's always like oh, you'realways so in love with that
(39:41):
piece of work and it's for meit's important to mention that
work because I think a lot ofthe time when we think about
arts, we always think aboutframed works that hang on the
wall, but we also don't thinkabout how we can also transform
the things that we do ontodifferent mediums.
So that's the success for me Ifyou're able to take your idea
(40:04):
and replicate it in differentways, that's something that
could make your lifeeconomically enriched as well
and empowered.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
My guest today on
Shades and Layers is Balisa
Sekhomutso Mutsumi, and she isthe founder of the arts agency
and consultancy Smatata Library.
Up next, we talk about legacyand we get into the Shades and
Layers rapid fire.
Speaking of South Africaspreading its wings, how do you
(40:38):
also make sure that there'sstill as much as a library, this
nurturing of the local you know, without having the
international overshadow?
Speaker 2 (40:47):
the local and
community driven.
I think it also speaks to thekind of people we have around,
you know, just interested in art.
Recently I started to kind ofhave these private mentoring
sessions with artists that werein my own community community,
as in my own hometown and made acall to kind of have them in my
(41:10):
space and we chat and we talkabout their careers, where they
want to go and how they want tonavigate their own careers.
It became something that wasabout people that were from my
hometown but now it kind ofspread into like having younger
artists from other parts of thecountry.
You know, sharing inconversation.
(41:32):
But what I realized was thatall of the artists that I
interacted with had similarquestions around how do I make
it, how do I make an applicationfor a residency or a commission
or this particular art prize,and the same questions keep
repeating themselves over andover again.
Until now I actually realizedthat it's not even about the
(41:57):
question.
It's about how much informationis out there about the things
that they're asking about.
So somebody like bringing aRuth Madao into the space and
asking them to talk about theirexperience is going to count
more than me talking about how,the how to list.
You know this is what you needto cover.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, you know like
this is what you need to write
but you know instead of havinglike someone who has done it and
is able to say, look, this ishow I did it, this is what
happened.
This is the degree of successI've had with this medium and
this is what happens when youfollow through with what you
(42:40):
started, and for me, it's justthose moments where it doesn't
need to be recorded or be onlinefor people to access that or to
have a call to action forpeople to come in.
It just showed me that there'sa possibility that we are trying
to speak to an audience thatmost probably is listening but
(43:02):
is not tuning in.
And that's very important to meat the moment is that is the
audience really tuning into whatis happening in their career?
And bringing in guests andasking them to speak about
certain aspects of their careerswas really enriching for the
younger artists because theycould relate a lot of what they
(43:25):
were doing.
They could relate it to also thepeople that I brought into the
space.
It was not really planned inthat way.
I think it was also somethingthat I thought it's not fair to
have just one person speak aboutcertain steps, whereas I could
bring in people that I alreadyknow are in this space.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
Multiple speakers
here, so what are you hoping
your legacy will be for theSouth African arts community?
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I think my legacy
will be a very well thought
through process, I guess, ofsomeone who was trying to paint
a picture that was aboutembracing how we look at
ourselves as opposed to beingfixated with what has happened
to us.
(44:14):
I'm always very mindful aboutthat, that I always tell my
family that, you know, whateverhappens to us is not really what
is happening.
It's just something that isgoing to be part of what is in
the future and what is it thatwe're trying to learn from that.
But yeah, I think my legacywill just be that it's going to
be a lot more about.
(44:35):
What is it that I'm trying tosay with certain things in my
work, in my curatorial work, inmy writing.
Sometimes, when I write aboutartists, it becomes more of a
journey within itself, with them, with me as well, me being a
witness to their life, me beinga witness to their art, also
(44:56):
trying to make sense of whatthey do in their careers.
So I don't know if it's goingto be something that I will
document in a book for people toread or it's going to be in a
form of a documentary that Ithink of, or it's going to be an
institution one day, becauseI'm a writer and I love writing.
(45:16):
One of my favorite writers andartists.
You know, in Ghana, IbrahimMahama has an institution in his
hometown and has built thismassive institution and
everything that he does is topour into that space, and I
think that's something that Iwould aspire to have that kind
of legacy one day.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Sure sure, sure.
Speaking of documenting things,we are now at the rapid fire
and my question, first questionis if you had to write a memoir,
what would it be called and why?
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Are you making me
blush?
So for the sake of the question, I won't go into other things.
For the sake of the question,if I were to write a memoir, the
title would be and Just Likethat, oh cool why?
I've always had this fascinationof gardening.
(46:15):
I love to work with my hands, Ilove flowers, plants, so it
would.
Elizabeth gilbert has this bookthat she wrote about a botanist
.
Oh, yeah, the botanist, yeah,yeah.
So it's one of my favoritebooks that I've read and I've
always been obsessed.
So if it was anything, it wouldbe about nature and botany and
(46:37):
flowers, and yeah, that would beit.
Yeah but this has to be thestory of your life yeah, it
would be about it essentiallywill be and just like that.
You know, I think there'ssomething there about just
plants and things, just being.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
you know that blossom
over time, yeah definitely
about that, and who would playthe lead character in the movie
version of your life?
Speaker 2 (47:08):
It probably is going
to be sounding vain, but I did
do speech and drama as a matrixsubject.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
So I do know how to,
oh, okay, so I do know how to,
okay, you do, you do know how toact.
Okay, you play yourself fairenough, okay, okay, yes, cool,
cool.
So who would you invite todinner?
Famous black woman, living ordead, who would you invite to
dinner?
Speaker 2 (47:31):
oh my god.
Yeah, this is a tough one.
I would definitely definitelyinvite.
It might sound very likecontroversial, but yeah, I'm
going to go ahead and say Idefinitely invite.
If I say this name, it'sprobably going to look like Say
(47:52):
it, I would definitely like toinvite somebody like tandisa to
a dinner.
I think there's something Iwould love to speak to about,
not really her music, but justher as a person, in terms of her
upbringing.
Of course, everything that'sonline you can access, but I
think having a dinner with herwould be really amazing.
(48:14):
So I'm just going to put it outthere that one day can I please
have a dinner with TandiSamazwai.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
She's funny and fun.
So, before we wrap it up, whatare you looking forward to at
the moment?
Speaker 2 (48:36):
I'm looking forward
to being in Cape Town.
Previously, staying here andnow coming back is something
very much I hold dear.
Yeah, so I'm looking forward tobeing in the city again.
I'm looking forward to seeing,you know, certain aspects of my
life being transformed.
I have I have a lot of ideas,but I think I need to focus on
(49:00):
just one, which is right nowbuilding on what I've discussed
with you.
That's what she said.
So, yeah, I mean I'm lookingforward to just doing life,
really just being present.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yeah, so if someone
wants to get hold of you, work
with you, give you money, wherecan they find you?
Speaker 2 (49:18):
so if somebody wants
to give me money, work with me
and collaborate with me, theycan find me on.
I'm mostly active on Instagram.
I'm under my handle atT-Y-A-T-Y-I Jaji, which is my
(49:39):
handle, my personal handle.
If they'd like to get incontact with the work that I do
with Samathaza Library, they canget in contact at Samathaza
Library on Instagram and emailme as well.
Palesa atsamathazalibraryafrica, and I
answer most of the time.
Most of the time.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Okay, great, and that
is all from me this time around
.
Thank you, palisa, for sharingyour story, and thanks to you
for listening.
Please visit the show notes formore on Palisa's work and some
of the artists mentioned intoday's show.
While you're in the show notes,please share and rate the
podcast so that others can findus.
(50:23):
A five-star rating would beamazing.
Thank you, I'm Kutuanus KwasanaRitchie, and until next time,
please do take good care.