May 27, 2025 • 50 mins
What happens when the dream your mother sacrificed everything for becomes your personal nightmare? Johannesburg-based filmmaker Karabo Lediga joins us to explore this haunting question through her debut feature film "Sabbatical" – a raw, honest portrayal of mother-daughter relationships in post-apartheid South Africa.
A 30-something year old woman called Lesego, is the compelling main character of this story. She is forced to return to her childhood home in the township in Pretoria after a professional downfall. While living in her mother's house, she has to reckon with having become alien to her own mother, how her Model C school experience has facilitated the fragility of that relationship, and the psychological cost of having being thrown in all-white spaces in order to achieve the success or dreams that parents desperately want for their children.
Our conversation ventures beyond the film into Karabo's amazing film and television career. Her credits include Netflix's "Queen Sono" and the touching short film "What Did You Dream?" that was inspired by her own grandmother's story. Karabo shares invaluable insights about sustaining a creative career in South Africa's evolving film landscape. Bonus: she shares the different funding mechanisms available to South African filmmakers—a system that is relatively unique to the country—and her commitment to authentic storytelling despite industry pressures.
Sabbatical is a much needed voice from South Africa's so-called born free generation. It's entertaining, it offers deep cultural insights and serves as an amazing showcase of Karabo's unique voice. Whether you're a film enthusiast, a creative professional, or someone navigating complex family dynamics, Karabo's perspectives will resonate long after the credits roll.
LINKS AND MENTIONS
Model C - Formerly whites-only public schools that were desegregated after Apartheid.
Matwetwe - seminal film of the film production house Diprente, who collaborated with Karabo on Sabbatical.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
People are really happy to see themselves on
screen.
That's what they say and it'snot the particular experience of
Leseho and her kind ofupbringing, but it's just
generally seeing South Africancues, nuances, subtleties, you
know.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hello and welcome to Shades and Layers.
I'm your host, kuponusKosana-Ritchie.
Today we get to explore thefilm industry with
Johannesburg-based award-winningwriter, producer and director,
karabo Lidija.
Her credits include Netflix'sQueen Sono and the short film
she wrote and directed, what Didyou Dream?
Based on her own grandmother'slife.
(00:38):
Karabo is currently promotingSabbatical, her debut feature
film.
So congratulations, karabo.
It is in cinemas right now inSouth Africa.
It is a love letter to mothersand daughters.
The story of the main characterand her mother has sparked a
lot of discussion about theAnsburken truths that shape
these mother-daughter dynamicsin post-apartheid South Africa.
(01:01):
In our sit-down we get to thenotion of success as it is
portrayed in the film, how it'sdefined and what it truly costs
to have it.
We also discuss film andtelevision business models, as
well as Karabu's careertrajectory.
We also discuss film andtelevision business models, as
(01:23):
well as Karababo's careertrajectory as a professional in
the industry.
Let's get into it, friends.
Here's Karabo Lidija.
Can you introduce yourself?
What you do for a living andwhat your latest project is?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So my name is Karabo Lidija.
I am a writer and director bothfor television and film, and
I'm based in South Africa, inJohannesburg.
My latest offering is my debutfeature film, and it's titled
Sabbatical.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Great Congratulations on your debut feature.
How does it feel?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I feel very exposed, like I'm walking around naked
and I'm on camera and people arelike can see my body parts.
I feel very exposed because Iget personal work and all work
is personal, you know it justencourages a lot of personal
questions that when one makesthe work, you know you don't
really anticipate until you kindof release the work Until it's
(02:27):
out there.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, I feel like those, but a lot of affirmations
because a lot of you knowpeople seem to react quite
positively to the work.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I'll take that out you know yeah, so tell me, yes,
what is Sabbatical about?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Sabbatical is a film about Lisekojo.
She's in her mid-30s when itbegins.
She's uh waking up from ablackout.
She's clearly had a very longnight of drinking, or whatever
she was doing.
She's peed the bed, she'svomited on the pillow.
She wakes up from darkness, umlooks around and realizes that
(03:05):
she's in her childhood bedroom,which has really been
transformed by her verycontrolling mom.
It's like it's got all thefrills and the doilies, you know
, and she realizes that shesomehow um arrived home.
Whatever called her there.
When she tries to leave, sherealizes that all her bank
accounts have been suspended orfrozen and she can't really tell
(03:25):
her mother, who's obviously hasa lot of questions um that she
doesn't quite voice, she can'ttell her that she's in really
big trouble at this big kind ofbank where she works in job in
joburg.
Um, I guess her mom reallyworked hard to get her where she
is, you know to suppose herprivate boy and it's a big deal
(03:46):
for her to not be of this oldworld but to be on a pedestal
somewhere in kind of northernJohannesburg suburbs.
And now the truth of herfailure and, I guess, unwellness
, spiritually and mentally, thatopening scene had me so anxious
.
(04:10):
Anxiety is a good, it's a goodfeeling.
I was really trying to tochannel anxiety, you know, in me
because I have it a lot, and Iwas like, how do I play around
with just the feeling of anxiety, yeah, all the time, almost
like borrowing from horror, um,but yeah, basically that's that.
So the whole film is like therelationship with mother and
daughter kind of being rebirthedinto something maybe honest, um
, and a little darker, you knowyeah, yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I haven't seen many film like this coming out of
south africa.
I mean, it's a, it's somethingthat's been well at least on
mind, because I can relate tothe experience, having been to
multiracial or Model C schools,and I haven't seen it portrayed
on screen.
So I mean, what's the receptionbeen like?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Very similar to your school journal.
People are, which I didn'treally expect.
People are really happy to seethemselves on screen.
That's what they say and it's.
It's not the particularexperience of leseho and her
kind of upbringing and the modelc kind of you know experience,
but it's just generally seeingsouth african cues, nuances,
(05:17):
subtleties, you know, mother anddaughter, that respect and the
untruths and the truths you know, and just the quote.
A lot of people react quitestrongly to it because it's
quite, they say it's truthful.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yeah, so it's very similar to you, yeah yeah, it is
quite truthful that whole ideathat you know there are things
you cannot say uh in.
You know, in certain spaces, Imean, she still hides the fact
that she smokes from her mother,let alone that she's an and
it's a relatable experience forany south african woman because
(05:50):
there's because I was thinkingabout I really liked um american
indie films.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
You know, as I was growing up I was like, oh,
little miss sunshine, all thesecharacter studies.
You know it seems like quiteindulgent to to focus on small
moments and not like really bigturning points or events in the
film and I really wanted to dothat, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
And.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
I thought something like Greta Gerwig's Lady Bird or
whatever, which is a greatmother and daughter.
But in this instance you cansay, mom, I hate you and bang
the door.
You can't say, mom, what you?
You know what I mean, so Iwanted to play around with just
like being african and respectyour elders and yeah secrecy and
(06:33):
you know lack of truth as well,honesty as well.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
You know play around with with that as well, yeah,
but also the whole idea of beingworlds apart, right, I mean
they live in two differentworlds, like and you see that a
lot, especially, you know, whenyou've had a parent who
sacrificed everything to sendtheir child to get better
education so-called bettereducation.
But you know, yeah, I mean tellme about that dynamic and how
(06:58):
it comes across in the film.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So I was very interested in my mother's
generation and mine.
You know she grew up like fullyin apartheid.
I think she was born the sameyear as apartheid, 1948.
Her entire life is literallydictated by the system.
You know she can't really dowhat she wants to be.
(07:21):
You know in simple terms.
But she couldn't really fulfillany dreams she had.
She didn't even have thefreedom to dream.
You know, in simple terms, butshe couldn't really fulfill any
dreams she had.
She didn't even have thefreedom to dream, you know.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
And she kind of poured all of this kind of hope
and opportunity into herchildren.
You know, and I was thinkingabout parents who couldn't be
what their children can be, gowhere their children can go,
like travel things, like NewYork I was in Amsterdamrica for
two days whatever for them it's,it's literally a dream come
(07:49):
true because they couldn't bethose things, you know.
But the dream is it's a rottendream, it's like a fallacy,
because a lot of us are a few,you know, the only few people
who can fit into this world intowhite school corporate South
Africa.
It's, it's.
There's no fit.
You have to be something elseto fit in.
(08:09):
There's a sickness in it.
You know you, you can't reallybe yourself.
It doesn't allow you to be,because you know then it
wouldn't be the system, thatthen you'd be taking it all
changing it, it wouldn't work.
And I think parents are quitethey they don't, maybe they
don't, maybe they understand,but they don't want to verbalize
how brutal the success is,especially when the majority are
(08:31):
still living under such poverty.
You know and lack of access.
There's only a few of us thatare special, so I think it's
difficult for parents to admitthat it doesn't work, you know
yeah.
That the dream doesn't work.
Yeah, and then I thought alsoparents wanted us to be
(08:53):
successful.
As a result, we became other.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Alienated.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Exactly, we became alien, yeah yeah, we became
alienated, but alien to them.
There was an instant cultureclash, clash.
I was like my mom and I live intwo different cultures, you
know sure and my mom is greatbecause she's quite progressive,
so she leans in into my world.
You know, I try to lean intohers but you know, maybe 10
(09:18):
years ago it wasn't so it wasvery like there was a lot of
conflict and friction, you knowit's a journey.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
It's a journey, yeah so's a journey, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So I thought, wow, this gap and this particular gap
, my generation and my mother's,you know.
I think it gets you know alittle bit easier in inverted
commas, you know, the youngerpeople are, but I feel like
there's such a stark differencein the way we grew up and I was
interested in exploring that.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, I also liked the way you explored the I mean
not only the alien alienness of,you know, coming back home to
your mother, but also yourneighbors, you know, who didn't
have the same experience orupbringing as you.
It's just like this clash ofworlds where El Esejo,
particularly, is trying torelate to the next door
(10:05):
neighbors.
You know, she was friends withthe girl who lived next door and
now actually, funny enough, sherelates more to the daughter
who is?
to the daughter, to the neighbor, truly.
So that was, that was quiteinteresting, that you know that
alien experience is almost beinggapped.
Sorry, that gap is being closedby the younger generation.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Absolutely and with God Gets.
I wanted to the next Donate.
I really wanted to explore andit's like it's a problematic
thing because when there's nochoice, you know, did she have a
choice to pursue what Lissihopursued or not?
Or did she choose this life?
You know, because I want toexplore contentment, that
(10:51):
there's no failure in this woman, that she's quite content in
her, her life, her family.
She's not.
She, she's not hasn't failed ina way where perhaps truly would
see it as failure and Lissihowould see it as failure.
You know, yeah, I feel likeshe's.
She's much more mellow, shedoesn't have the anxiety that
(11:11):
Lissiho has and she's notchasing the thing that Lissiho
has.
I found that interesting thatthere's always a portrayal of
people back home having havingkind of fallen off or you know,
being disadvantaged or being orwanting more, you know, and I
wanted to explore this womanlike as a full character, who's
(11:31):
quite content and having areally good time.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I know she's just like God, there's freedom.
You're like, oh my gosh, she'splaying gigs.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
She's just living her best life you know doing hair,
she's in love.
Oh my gosh life.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
You know doing hair, she's in love.
Oh my gosh, there's a freedomthat comes with that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
I mean, I can only imagine that.
You drew from personalexperience.
But you know what kind ofresearch did you do for and, and
you know how did that look foryou, how did that process look
for you?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I was interested in and I had a kind of like a
personal conflict in displayingkind of black women characters,
african characters who aredabbling in crime or whatever,
like some, that kind of sinisterthing.
I didn't want kind of like anegative stereotype or
representation, but I wantedLissihua to have really fallen
(12:20):
in a shameful way, you know, andsomething that kind of gave her
agency.
You know, and something thatkind of gave her agency, you
know she was chasing somethingand she pushed too far.
Whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
So I wanted to have agency so that when Doris,
whatever deals with this idea,it really kind of hits his heart
.
It can't just be oh, she waslet go, whatever it had to be
something that she did thatbrings shame, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And then I know how complicated it is with these
cases and I read up a lot onthem Black women who are kind of
catapulted to these leadershippositions and are somehow
embroiled in, whether true ornot, but literally thrown under
the bus because they become thescapegoats no matter who's
involved.
It's always this black woman,and there's a list of them.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
So I went to PWCc.
All the cases that you knowcorporate yeah and a lot of them
.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
They're lots, they're lots, they're lots.
Um, so I yeah, I just kind ofobsessively read up on the cases
.
A lot of them kind of speak up,later become whistleblowers.
Some wrote, write a book, youknow, some are completely, they
vanish and or that they movehome and, you know, never can be
employed.
So I did a lot of that researchand then I did, I read a lot on
(13:35):
just like mental health incorporate South Africa yeah,
that is a under explored yeahyeah, so I read a lot of papers.
There are a lot of kind ofpapers about stress, some a book
or two, you know.
So I kind of because I'm aresearch brain I focused a lot
on on that.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Everything else was, yeah, pretty much drawn from the
personal yeah, and speaking ofthe writing process, did you
have a writer's room?
You know what.
What happened there and howlong did it take you?
Speaker 1 (14:06):
like I like this.
Uh, how long did it take you?
Because I've always heard likewriters say it was a 10-year
project or a six-year project.
In truth, we you know how muchof the years.
How much were you writing inthose years?
Right, I think it came.
I remember it, not not a lot.
It came to me.
I don't remember the genesis ofit, but I think it came to me
(14:26):
because I had like reallyextensive surgery and I had to
go home to recover for six weeksand my mom had to take care of
me because there was no one here.
Everybody I partied with waskind of like too young, whatever
, there was no home.
So I went home and my mom is anurse, so she's great at that,
maybe too great, maybe like, andthere's like this kind of idea
(14:49):
of you know people will heal you.
So there's always like too manyvisitors.
I'm like, lady, I just want anap.
I'm like, oh.
And then there's like she'sjuicing in an incredible way, so
like I'd take pictures of her.
She'd be on her way to work andshe'd be like bringing these
juices, I'd have pineapple andthis and that, and I was like yo
(15:12):
, give me a kiss, and thenthere'd be nobody calling before
they arrived.
It's like we've arrived.
I'm like yo, oh my gosh.
And then she'd call you to comesee them.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, my, oh, my gosh oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, so it from I think it came and I think I was
in and out of whatever.
It is pain medication, whatever, so it was kind of like a dream
or whatever nightmarish.
You know, I'm like, this ladyloves me.
This is love, but it's like,literally like it's love it was
like crazy love, and I think inthat moment she was obviously
(15:50):
very worried about me, so sheoverdid whatever she would
normally do, you know.
So the idea came from that andit became a short film I pitched
.
I remember I pitched it to someNMVF women's filmmaker Slade
and the one of the execs at N?
Nvf was like if you have aproblem with your mother, I
think you should deal with thisin therapy.
So that's what it is.
I was like, oh okay, so I leftit for long and then that was
(16:16):
probably at maybe 2080 or 3060,I don't remember yeah, probably
2060, and then I wanted to makeit into a future film.
I think I was bored and Istarted writing it out.
So no, no writer's room, justgoing into labs, I guess right
because I went to the Torontofilm lab and another kind of
French lab with a full script.
(16:36):
But what I believe in isbecause I wanted to kind of
feedback, especially from, likea global audience.
Don't know why, it's anaffirmation problem, um, but I
also kind of send it around forfeedback, but it's just all me,
but I do send it around forfeedback here right, right and
uh, speaking of uh labs, uh, didyou raise funding through that?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
uh to through those connections, you know how.
How did you finance it?
Speaker 1 (17:03):
um.
So the sabbatical is a part ofa slate of four feature films
from different it's.
It's kind of funded as like abusiness model.
You know um pre sold here, um,just sub-saharan region with
kind of festival potential andkind of recouping with sales
(17:26):
around the world.
It's like a business model.
Not every film is the same.
They're all kind of voice work,kind of films, an attempt to go
back to cinema post-covid,after matreto and them you know,
right.
So I I arrived to them after thelab.
They knew that because it's mybrother and my sister-in-law,
tamsin Anderson and GahisoDidiha.
(17:47):
They knew that I'd been workingon it and they wanted to make
it part of the slate because itwas quite ready, right.
So it became part of a slate offour.
The next one is Gahiso's formas well, and there are two more.
So, yeah, it's funded partrebate, part South African kind
(18:07):
of funding per estate or grant,part pre-sale to a licensed
thing and part private funding.
So, no, no, no, yeah, no labs,no, yeah, no labs.
I'm finding that, applying tointernational film festival
stuff, it's not doing well forthis film and it's an
(18:28):
interesting thing.
That's odd.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, it's such a specific story I would expect.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, so not to yeah sound I don't know negative, but
yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
It's not yeah, so that's interesting to me, but
you know yeah yeah, what do youthink the taste you know for
film from south africa lookslike is?
Are they more interested indocumentary or you know?
I mean, this is like kind of adocument of sorts.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, I know, right, it's like definitely archiving
of culture and a time for sure,I don't know, I mean I don't
want to get into trouble andnever get into people again, but
I think there is a certain gazethat African films have.
You know, I think people areused to a certain type of even
look and feel and style and kindof, most importantly, subject
(19:21):
matter.
You know, I don't know, I dothink this is not a regular kind
of offering from here in termsof film festivals at all.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
yeah, and how has the streaming, you know services,
arrival of streaming services,served the market in general?
For, you know, filmmakers suchas yourself?
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, I mean I.
So we worked on Queen Sono andwe being the brand day who
produced and also people that Iwork with all the time because
it's my brother and mysister-in-law so we worked on
Queen Sono, which was the firstAfrican original.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
I loved it.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
I was so sad when it didn't come back.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I know we're all very sad.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Because we're always trying to push something new,
like just new representationstuff.
You know, I also really likedit and we had really cool ideas
for, you know, more seasons forQueen S, queen sono, so that and
and it launched.
It started streaming infebruary 2020.
I think that was probably thelast big event before covid hit
(20:22):
and we had for a long time.
So that made cinema welldisappear, we can argue even
until now.
So it opened up a lot ofopportunity to to also meet,
because once queen sona wasstreaming around the world,
people were interested in southafrica.
So we had a lot of meetings forother projects, meetings as a
writer, because you know youcan't go to hollywood, people
(20:45):
are in their house so you could.
It just really opened upopportunities for general
meetings and you know the ideaof an agent who's based in the
us or whatever.
So I think that's because ofstreaming, because it's so
instant, like the distribution,so wide and it's you just never
know where it's gonna pop.
It could be malaysia, it couldbe.
So every time you're writingwe're always thinking about this
(21:06):
granny in malaysia.
Will she understand?
Whatever?
So it's only like becausethat's true, but as a result it
kind of suffocates the rest ofthe industry and the the entire
model, you know right, right,yeah, yeah because yeah, so so
there's a.
There's a win and a loss.
I'm I've also been interestedin licensing to to streamers as
(21:30):
well, as opposed to kind ofcollaborating with them for
original content.
I feel like it should be a mix,so coped up, licensing and then
originals working with them.
It's done a lot for theindustry, but I feel like we
always need that diversity.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, you can't just have onemodel for the entire industry.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yeah, exactly yeah, so that.
That's a that.
Yeah, the entire industry.
Yeah, exactly yeah, so thatthat's a that.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yeah, that's a problem, yeah yeah hey, it's
shades and layers.
With today's guest, karabulidiha, we are discussing her
debut feature film, sabbatical,which I absolutely love and
recommend, and also talkingabout how she built her career
in the film industry.
Up next, we discuss the castenergy on set and also how the
film industry Up.
Next, we discuss the castenergy on set and also how the
(22:15):
film has been received so far.
So did you see a lot of mom anddaughter you know pairs
attending the premiere ofSabbatical.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
That thing was very strange for me, because I didn't
, because we premiered atRotterdam Film Festival and
there it's like such, it's afestival, you know, yeah, sure,
like a world premiere.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
That's interesting, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
It's very like toned down.
It's maybe your programmer, oneperson for the festival, the
lead, the producer.
There's not much dramahappening, there's literally
nobody outside.
You walk in, you watch the filmand you talk about the film.
So I didn't't in my head, Ididn't anticipate press, I
didn't anticipate.
I feel so naive.
(22:59):
So as soon as I was likewaiting for us to go watch the
film because I made a film foryou to watch and then tell
people and then I was like, ohmy gosh, so I saw nobody.
I saw one or two.
I thought I'd ask them how itwent.
Yeah, I wanted to know about thedrama, whatever, but no, there
(23:20):
were many.
I know there were many, but Ididn't see them.
I hear they were there, yeah.
Yeah, great, but it would beinteresting to kind of delve
into that, because I was tryingto make this experiment to see,
yeah, like black mothers anddaughters watching this.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I mean, I could imagine, I could imagine doing
that.
You know, it's also like suchan unusual thing taking your mom
to the cinema, like it's notsomething that you think of,
right, I know, but I was likewhat, what I was like, oh, but
in my idealistic way and I workwith idealistic people, you know
, oh, we can push this.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
take your mother to, you know, to the cinema, and I
think nobody thinks about I meanin America and everywhere else
they'll think about making filmsfor, like, the older female
audience whatever it is.
Diane Keaton stars in somethingwhatever.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Right, right and here , like people just disappear.
You don't even see the oldladies on screen, right.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
On screen.
I'm just like how guys?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
like, like, how do you?
And also, as I grow older, I'mlike am I disappearing as like a
target?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
absolutely, absolutely, it's a consideration
, interest in yeah, in kind ofmaking people exist.
But how could it be normal togo to the cinema with your mom
when there's nothing really towatch with her?
What would you watch?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
yeah, I, I wouldn't even think of it.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I mean, there's some content which is like I, I'm not
coming to with my mom to comeand watch this because I was
sitting with my, my mom, who, asyou can imagine, has been in
the cinema many times, you know,and she's very vocal.
The thing that she she reactedmore to wasn't anything else.
(24:54):
It's like she was the smokinggot to her.
She was like yo, oh gosh, it'sa thing.
It's a thing I was like, okay,this is very effective, because
I like that it gets to them, youknow.
Yeah, because it's who she is.
You don't want to see it andyou will see it.
She's like she's got eyes.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, will see it.
She's like she's got a vice.
Yeah, a smoking girl, oh, butthe drunken scene where she's
with those guys and she doesn'teven know what she's drinking oh
my gosh, honestly, my anxietywas really really high watching
Leseho.
She's like this girl has nosense of self-preservation
everybody's like, even on set.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Even I got annoyed.
On set I was like you know what?
Let's say enough.
Let's say you've got it toolike I'm like.
Let's say oh man, enough, youknow I.
I felt, even on set people werejust like yo.
Let's see this girl.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yeah, but what a great lead character.
Mona was so amazing.
Yeah, but the entire cast, Imean, I was really, really
believing.
I even took Loiso seriously foronce.
Oh good, some people.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I was like that's a huge gamble because I wanted to.
It was a huge gamble for mebecause I was like I don't want
to, I don't want laughter tocome out.
I was like, but why not?
I wanted it to be on the verge.
You know that if you know, ifyou know him, you'll be like.
But but I wanted it to because,also, he's so huge.
I thought that was funny aswell yeah, so.
(26:20):
I'm like I'm playing yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I wanted him to be imposingin the small world, and I think
he did really well yeah, yeah,yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely
.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
But let's talk about your career and its trajectory.
First of all, how you got intothis business and you know, kind
of address the deeper meaningyou attached to your activities
when you said, okay, this iswhat I want to do with my life
and I'm going for it.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I've always, I don't know, and maybe it's.
I don't think I've everarticulated this before because
I feel like I had a little bitof a traumatic upbringing, as we
all did, growing up where wewere at the time.
We grew up but my parents gotdivorced I think I was 11.
It was quite a before that.
Building up to it, it wasn't afun time.
Sometimes, I think I only nowin therapy I'm like, oh shoot,
(27:10):
I'm remembering what I kind ofnumbed or kind of locked away,
but I think I escaped in storyand writing stuff or you know, I
think that was my escape andfantasy.
So I have like this thing ofkind of going to a better place.
I'll be like, oh my gosh, nowI'm in Italy.
Oh no, I don't like Italy, I'min Barcelona.
Um, you know, I'm like, andthen I had to like come back.
(27:31):
This is a coping mechanism.
This is not and there's someheartbreak and going into
fantasy when it's a copingmechanism where you're like
running away from pain.
You know, I have a very lowthreshold for pain that I'm
trying to fix, you know.
But I realized there's kind ofsomething amazing about being
able to dream and fantasize andthat I can channel into
(27:52):
storytelling.
So it's almost like my, myAchilles heel became my, also my
power, that right, if I focuswell, that I can kind of dream
up story in a way that's healthy, productive.
And I'm only realizing this now.
But I've always kind of toldstories to myself to make the
world better or feel better orless painful.
Yeah so, but when I?
because I was really good atmath and science, so I was going
(28:15):
to study mechanical engineering, which I did- for a year in
cape town and my mom was likewhy you're always writing songs
for us, you're always telling usstories, you always write mom
power to you, but not you.
And my brother was already atuct doing drama, so you can
imagine he was just like we'recool people, we're're not
engineers.
You know, he had a nightmarethat I'd be.
(28:36):
I'd have 10 babies in such agroup.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I don't know where this comes from oh my gosh, he
had never I don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
He's just like I guess it's escape.
He's like we can't be people wegot to.
So he was very much wantingCape Town.
My mom must know that he'lltake care of me in Cape Town.
So I decided on engineering,but at least I'd be there, you
know.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
But he and my mom really really pushed me to try
something else and at the time Iwas like I don't really like
this engineering, I don't likethese people.
It was very male.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Sure, absolutely.
Yeah, I was just thinking CapeTown engineering.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Maybe, Vets would have been different, but Cape
Town, I think so, yeah, I thinkI was being called Boki Boki and
then I was like, oh my God, no,and I was imagining three more
years of this or whatever in mylife and I was like I was going
to be unhappy.
So I went to a fair and acareer fair and there was a
course, a new course film mediastudies at UCT that I applied to
(29:34):
and that was the thing.
I guess, yeah, it's justhonoring who I am, with the help
of the people who love me?
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I guess, yeah, and this storytelling thing, you
know, do you think it'ssomething that runs in the
family?
I mean, I know it was yourescape.
Where did it come from?
Or it's just something youworked on?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
So my maternal grandmother.
She has more, more names.
I made a short film about herin her honor, called what did
you dream?
And I often thought, wow, whata great hero like and not like
nelson mandela or just anybodyelse that's in the books or in
the media, whatever I was like,but we had heroes.
You know, she made in a toughtime, she made with very little,
she made life so soft andmagical and it was story really.
And the what did you dream wasabout five feet, or muchina as
(30:19):
we called it in pretoria, howshe played it.
Only later I was like, oh shoot, she was playing it to buy
bread and stuff, but she made itlike fantasy thing.
You know how they ask us whatdid you dream?
And then you have to like weavethese stories and then she'd be
like that's number seven, ohKuku.
Kuku was like got you, yes,daddy, and then you get the
(30:39):
treat.
So that was kind of the film,the basis of the film.
But she also told all sorts ofstories with song and stuff and
all the cousins would be there,either as holidays or the ones
that lived there.
So it's quite magical andkuku's kind of kitchen is the
one that's in the pure monatish.
That's the one where, yeah,okay, I feel like my mom says my
(31:08):
paternal grandfather, who waslike a really great Presbyterian
.
Yeah, yeah, she says he, he isthe storyteller.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I can imagine I mean preacher man.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Hey, yeah, and my mom is like a great storyteller.
Sometimes I'm like no lady,that's not how it's happening.
You know, when your mom, whenpeople come, the no, no, I'm
always like that lady and it'svery much performative.
You know, when your mom, whenpeople come, the pitch is like
higher, I'm like calm down, youknow.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
But my mom is very yeah she's let's not lady.
Very, very nice and you getinto this space.
You took an education in this,but you know what tools, which
people are helping you on yourjourney to make this a reality.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
So I think what helped me the most was starting
off as a researcher, because Iworked as a researcher for all
sorts of things, you know Right.
And I guess I was a goodresearcher because I had a good
story brain.
But I kind of hid in researchbecause I was afraid of the
writing.
So it took me a long time to bea writer.
But I was mostly a researcher.
I worked on Take Five five.
(32:16):
I knew everything about hiv,aids, I know everything about
prep, I know everything.
So I know things about escom,how lights work, because I
worked on game shows and youknow all sorts of stuff.
So I feel like the researcherbrain really made my story brain
so much stronger.
You know, um, sometimes peoplewill be like don't start with
research because that will limityou, start with story and go
crazy and then come back andmake it believable, yeah, but I
(32:39):
find that difficult.
I feel like research is a greatstart.
So that's, that's been great,and I'm very lucky to have been
in comedy, because it's a veryunserious space, you know it
doesn't, and it's very welcoming.
It's all sorts of you.
You could be a banker nowyou're a stand-up comedian,
you're a doctor, like.
So it's a very liberal spaceand doesn't have the pressure of
fame.
In that way, it's like theylaugh at you.
(33:00):
You're famous because theylaughed at you, which is such a
great thing.
It's not because you aregorgeous or you want to right
yeah and it's like, it's almostlike a convention of crazies.
You know, yeah, that you youbuild with and you build a tone
and kind of community with.
And it's so open that I I was awriter and then I learned how
to direct and sketch because, uh, we worked with on the bunch
(33:22):
hour with brahima, which is like, wow he was, he's like he was a
co-presenter with carrizo.
He's like he's there, oh mygosh, with the band, yeah, you
can imagine.
So I'm in the writing room withbrahu and he's like, do you
know when I was, whatever?
Then we are kind ofbrainstorming sketches and kind
of monologues for this latenight news show, which is
(33:43):
brilliant.
Brilliant yeah, and it was andwith sketch we come up with all
sorts of things.
You know, like some likethere's a haunting in the house
and there's some comedy twist toit, and that's like the
satirical thing.
As a director, I have to learnhow to work with horror now, or
there's like an action scenechasing the maguinha thief or
whatever.
I have to learn how to do achase sequence.
(34:05):
So it became kind of auniversity for story genre and
directing ultimately.
So I think that community alsoreally helped my story.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Right, you're listening to Shades and Layers
and my guest today isaward-winning film writer and
director Karabole Dikha.
Up next we get deeper into whata successful creative career
can look like.
She also has some tips on whatto do to get your foot in the
door as a young professional andalso how to have a sustainable
(34:37):
career once you're there.
So you've had a lot of hands-onexperience to sharpen your
skills.
So somebody who's starting outnow and wants to be like you,
emulate your career.
What would you advise them todo?
Speaker 1 (34:51):
I think that there are maybe two things I can think
of now.
I think being yourself reallyis your best bet, Because I
think there's a lot of pressureto mimic all sorts of things.
It could be anything, it couldbe, I don't know, South Korean
cinema, it could.
Whatever it is, it could be.
I think being yourself becausethere's no other one like you,
there's no other voice like you,is really a good idea.
(35:14):
And secondly and this is toughit's a very tough question to
answer, because there's so fewways to enter this industry.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
That's what I'm wondering exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Because there's all these people who are like, let
me tell you what to do.
I'm like I don't know.
It's a tough industry and itshouldn't be, you know, and it's
all about who you know and youknow, and it's all about who you
know.
And what worked for me isbecause I knew somebody who had
started before me, you know.
So it's hard, I think,pestering people I get pestered
a lot, and pestering peoplemeans going to film festivals,
going to screenings and chasing,you know, watching their stuff,
(35:46):
whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Being in the environment, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Being in the environment and then having
always something ready.
Because, as I write, one of myproducers once said work on the
script before you involveanybody else, because that's
literally the most control youhave and it's your biggest
investment, right?
Because it's just me with mycomputer, whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
So make that investment work on have
something ready.
Always I found that even withthe short film I had something
ready already.
You know right when somesomebody says there's a call out
at this and that and that, andthey always call out because
south africa is one of the fewkind of industries or countries
in the world that funds filmfrom like the tax base.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
It's right, I know we complain a lot, but yeah, I
didn't know that I didn't knowthat yeah, it didn't know that.
Yeah, it's usually a privateventure, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Absolutely.
Yeah, like Nigeria doesn't haveNigerian Film Commission or
don't complain.
Well, you didn't give us money,only funding these other people
.
We have a lot.
We have the tax rebate systemIn Gauteng, we have the Film
Commission, we have the NationalFilm and Video Foundation, you
know.
We have the IDC that fundsbusiness models.
Kzn has its own film commission.
They all fund things and theyhave a mandate to fund from tier
(36:56):
one to three, meaning beginningstudent level to mid to
professional, as they say,whatever seasoned.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Those things exist, and my first short film, which I
don't want to show anybody,which is great because I guess
it was a learning thing wasthrough the NAVF's female
filmmaker slate, which is hasbeen going for years yeah, yeah
and at the time somebody haddropped out and somebody who
worked on the project said doyou have anything?
and I had something.
(37:23):
I was like, oh, here's thething.
They were like, oh, this thingis great, it's great.
Always have something and applyto these things, you know, and
go to the, to the places yeah,yeah, that's it, yeah, okay,
that's great.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
So network, be out there, have something ready, and
filmmaking it's like such atime-consuming pursuit.
Right, you're doing this onething.
You know how do you maintainyourself in the meantime while
you're waiting for your film tobe to be funded?
You know what kind of thingsdid you do, for example.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
I guess Johannesburg as an industry is very
television based.
I've always been like atelevision brain, a very much a
television work.
You know when they say you wantto job up to work.
I was coming here to work ontelevision yep and because I
always want to be quiteversatile, because you can't
really do one thing here, itdoesn't work, especially in this
industry you gotta find ways todifferent things.
(38:10):
So I've always been a tv writerfor hire so I write all sorts of
genre.
I've written prison drama, I'vewritten virtual psycho thriller
type things.
Comedy it's not always comedy,I love it.
I just love playing around, youknow, and more recently,
working as a director for hireas well, I found that it's like
a little bit faster in terms ofthe timelines and you can kind
(38:34):
of have more of it.
Three months here writing canbe quite long.
So I'm a freelancer and I doall sorts of things Writing work
mostly, and directing work,yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
So it's finally culminated in this huge
milestone, which is sabbatical.
What are your other proudmoments?
Do you have maybe two or threemore that you'd like to share?
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I mean, I'm really proud of my short film.
It was something quite honestand it touches people in a in an
interesting way because itreminds you of my grandmother.
You know, this is a superpower,this thing.
I'm like I must keep doing thisthing because I wanted to make
a nostalgia piece.
That's kind of very like youcan almost like feel and touch
this place, this memory place,you know.
(39:15):
Memorabilia is cold andnostalgia.
Really it's sweet and it's kindof indulgent and it's one-sided
, you know.
So I wanted to make that andI'm really, really proud of it.
I think generally all mywriting work really, if I saw it
through as a writer, I reallyenjoyed it and I put myself in
it, because often I'd startprojects and I'd be like, no, I,
(39:37):
I don't.
I don't believe with this.
I don't believe in thestereotyping.
I think this is a terriblepremise.
I don't think this shows womenin a good light, men in a good
light.
I don't want to put my spiritin this and no matter what it is
, it doesn't matter what it isright, but I won't be able to
see it through because I like toput myself in it and kind of
jam with it.
I worked on Emoen.
It was a four-part series andit was like a tissue with a
(39:58):
Google brainchild, you know ohyeah.
Yeah, it was really beautiful.
They wanted to make this kindof somewhere between the African
spiritual realm and psychology,like this kind of blurred line.
So I wrote a script for thatseries and you know, know, as a,
writer yeah, it's reallybeautiful, interesting, so I'd
(40:19):
send this as a sample, rightlike a sample writing, and
people will be like what is,what is this?
This has really done well formy.
You know, sending people mysample writing queen sauna was
also a great um milestone aswell, yeah, innovation as well,
something new, you know.
Yeah, um, yeah, there are lotsof things I'm proud of, mostly
(40:39):
my writing, my writing work,yeah sure and who is on your
list of people I have to meet inthis lifetime?
Speaker 2 (40:48):
do you have some famous black women you'd like to
?
Yeah, let's say famous blackwomen famous black women.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
It's always Ava DuVernay man, you know yeah, and
.
I.
I just think there's something.
I was having a conversationwith a friend and kind of
colleague today.
He wanted to meet to say whatnext?
Karabo?
So I had to like okay, what,what are we doing next?
I don't know.
You know, and yesterday afriend of mine who's a
cinematographer and director,natalie Harhohoff, sent me I
(41:14):
know natalie yeah, she workedwith us right here.
Oh really, yeah, that's greatyeah she sent me um, an old from
a podcast from 2019, evaduvenet and she was like I don't
know if you've heard this, butthis kind of made me think of
you.
And then I was in an interviewand somebody asked me the same
question.
I was like, oh, eva DuVernay.
(41:35):
Before that I was like, whoa,look at this, you know.
So I listened to it last nightand I was like she's she's very
I guess she's not comfortablewith the fact that she has to do
more than just make films.
You know, because her peers whoare not black women, just make
films they're like what's nextfor fun just to do the work, to
(41:55):
create spaces, for herself firstand for other black women, you
know yeahso her work is triple fold,
double fold.
It's like it's a burden becauseit takes away from creative
life, you know right, but shedoes it.
There's nothing in place for it.
Because, if you, if you,because I feel like I've also
been very passive I wait, I'mlike, oh, this festival said no.
Like, oh, this festival said no, I'm terrible.
Or this festival said, no, I'mnot good.
(42:17):
You know, but why does thefestival say no?
How do I get my films to beseen by you know people?
Maybe not this big festival,but maybe a black film festival,
who do I know?
You know what I mean.
Right so being kind of proactivein creating something new.
So being kind of proactive increating something new, even
this film is cause I could havedone what festivals like or what
(42:38):
I've seen they like, or I couldhave done what streamers like I
could have you know, abided bywhat's already there, but I was
like, oh, let me be honest, andthere's a price to pay, but
there's opportunity with honestywhatever.
But I feel like I'm already kindof doing something more than
just creating, and I think Ineed to do more like Ava you
know she does so much, create somuch, and she comes up with
(43:00):
solutions for the industry, fordistribution, for representation
.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
You know yeah, I also really like teaching and
developing young voices as well.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
So I feel like, yeah, I'd like to just chill with Ava
and kind of yeah, definitelyAva, I mean there are others,
but she really stands out, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
What do you think of the Shonda Rhimes model?
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Yo, I think, as a television beast, I, as somebody
who who works in television, Ithink she's incredible in what
she does, and television isinteresting because it's it has
such different kinds of demandsas well.
You know it.
It's the success of it is nextseason, next season, next season
, absolutely the success of itis going here you know, yeah,
(43:38):
you have to keep going.
You know, and I think even usas a collective queen sono one
time whatever, there's a lot ofone time because you're trying
to break ground, you know, yeahyeah just like change, change
the vibe, change the tone, justchange the offering.
And it's hard to to startbecause viewers are not used to
it or streamers don't market itwell because it's just not what
(44:00):
has worked for the algorithm orwhatever it is.
Sure, yeah, I feel like wefigured it out very well,
especially starting with thingslike Grey's Anatomy, something
quite palatable for everybody,and then kind of going into very
specific.
That was clever, yeah, veryclever.
That was very smart, palatablefor everybody, and then kind of
go into very specific yeah, veryclever.
That's like a tv brain, likethat's like a master of
(44:21):
television.
You know, and then she can doprivate practice.
You know interesting thingsthat can be a little bit more
specific or more black orwhatever it is, but she built
this thing and that's how justtelevision works, you know yeah,
so yeah, she's speaking ofdoing more than, um, uh, make
creative pursuits.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
What kind of platforms or opportunities do
you think a film like sabbaticalgives access to or has opened
now I?
Speaker 1 (44:50):
hadn't it was always the idea of let me make a
calling card my desires kind ofchanged.
You know when, when you put outsomething and you have
different expectations of it andsomething else comes, you're
like, oh shoot, I thought I'djust get a ticket into I don't
know caa and have meetings withpeople who want you know it's
always foreign.
(45:11):
It's always western, you know,but I think I'd like somebody to
understand the voice this is avoice this is, it's gonna be
this, and think it's interestingenough to give to find more of
this voice and it would beinteresting if it was maybe like
a straight up kind of comedyseries with like a black woman
lead who's kind of theantithesis of black girl magic.
(45:32):
She's like really messed uplike this lead in my film Sure.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
And I wanted to call it out of training.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
I was like we're not.
We might look it, but we don'tknow what's happening.
If somebody says I'm like Idon't know, lady, where are the
lyrics?
Let me Google, you know.
So, I find this bumbling thing,or the opposite of perfection,
and like kind of blackexcellence, interesting, you
(45:59):
know.
So I feel like this is a goodcalling card for that kind of
offering, but to make otherfeature films in the same vein.
I feel like I'm obsessed withthis divide, almost like we
immigrants in the same country.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Absolutely, and those wounds are still there.
Man, I mean imagine being thefirst, I mean we were some of
the next, but the first batch ofblack girls who, like, went to
private schools.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Well then, hey, can you just imagine?
And you also left home in ataxi Some of us you know, in a
coon bee, you woke up at four.
Your parents are like, hey,make it work, make it work.
You know you woke up at four.
Your parents are like, hey,make it work, make it work.
You know, yeah, and you're alot of it is a silent suffering
or whatever it is.
Yeah, so I'm obsessed.
I can't even going to.
For me, going from social Ialways say social, but I'm sure
(46:46):
I was living somewhere else atthe time um to uct.
For me it was like guys, canyou imagine being?
Yeah, I mean, I didn't knowwhat it was, I didn't know what
it was, yeah.
So yeah, I feel like I'mobsessed with this divide.
Hopefully I'll get it out of mysystem, but yeah, there seems
to be a lot of this kind ofcommentary.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely great.
So sabbatical is out, you canwatch it in cinemas in just in
south africa for now, okay.
Any plans for streaming orother ways to watch it?
Speaker 1 (47:18):
absolutely eventually .
Yeah, we would like to have iton a streaming platform.
I think it's interesting forfilmmakers to be allowed the
opportunity to exploit all thedifferent bits of the value
chain.
You know, um, cinema's hardhere, but I think it's a good
kind of effort.
If it's not mine, maybe thenext film from somebody else,
(47:39):
just to start that appetite,because I think filmmakers need
to start recouping also fromcinema, you know yeah because
the streamers don't alwaysmarket your stuff.
Sometimes they swallow your,your films to never be heard of
again, so it doesn't work forthe director or the production
company.
You know you might get a fee,but I think it's important to
try and exploit every kind ofwindow, yeah, every single, even
(48:01):
just to try, you know, becauseeven the distributors are like
it's a hard environment.
We're like, okay, it's hard,let's try, let's just try.
Yeah, so eventually it will be.
I, eventually it will be, Iwon't say when, until people go
to watch it.
Great.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Let's get them out there, man.
Yeah, it's such a relatablestory.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Come on, we'll get them out there, and it's also
entertaining.
Exactly, I want to makesomething entertaining, like you
know.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Yeah, no, no, no, it's great fun and so much
better than all these you knowmade for Netflix things that you
find.
I mean I was like properentertained, I was like I was
invested in the characters, doyou?
Know, what's going to happen,you know.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
I really want also wanted to make this French lab
it's called the group west thatI went to.
It was all COVID, so it wasonline but for a year.
Their model is to have likethese kind of french new wave,
kind of very artistic kind ofcinema, um, merged with kind of
american entertainment, likeplot driven stuff.
(49:01):
I was interested in that.
I was like, oh, you could havean artistic piece, because I
don't want navel gazers, I don'twant just people being like, oh
, wank, wank.
I feel like sure I feel like youshould be doing more than just
you kind of talking about yourlife.
I don't know.
Imagine me recovering fromsurgery and that's my story.
So I had to come up with plotsand twists and turns which I
(49:23):
like, that model, you know, sothat it's actually commercially
viable and it hooks somebody andit's entertaining.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
So if people want to work with you, invite you to a
talk or a film festival, wherecan they find you?
Speaker 1 (49:36):
My email address.
I'm always.
I'm very proud to say I have nounread emails in my inbox.
I've seen people like I waslike no, I'm always waiting for
somebody.
Oh, guilty, everybody else.
I'm like, I will read everyemail.
I don't know why, why?
But my email address is klidigaat gmailcom.
K-l-e-d-i-g-a at gmailcom.
(49:57):
Great, perfect.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
And that is all from me this time around.
Thanks to Karabo for sharinghis story.
Do go and check out Sabbatical.
You don't have to be SouthAfrican or a mother-daughter
pair to enjoy it.
It's just a great story told bya great storyteller.
More information is availablein the show notes.
Thanks for listening andremember to share this episode
(50:20):
with a friend.
I'm Kuduanos Kosanarichi, anduntil next time, please do take
good care.
People are really happy to see themselves on
screen.
That's what they say and it'snot the particular experience of
Leseho and her kind ofupbringing, but it's just
generally seeing South Africancues, nuances, subtleties, you
know.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hello and welcome to Shades and Layers.
I'm your host, kuponusKosana-Ritchie.
Today we get to explore thefilm industry with
Johannesburg-based award-winningwriter, producer and director,
karabo Lidija.
Her credits include Netflix'sQueen Sono and the short film
she wrote and directed, what Didyou Dream?
Based on her own grandmother'slife.
(00:38):
Karabo is currently promotingSabbatical, her debut feature
film.
So congratulations, karabo.
It is in cinemas right now inSouth Africa.
It is a love letter to mothersand daughters.
The story of the main characterand her mother has sparked a
lot of discussion about theAnsburken truths that shape
these mother-daughter dynamicsin post-apartheid South Africa.
(01:01):
In our sit-down we get to thenotion of success as it is
portrayed in the film, how it'sdefined and what it truly costs
to have it.
We also discuss film andtelevision business models, as
well as Karabu's careertrajectory.
We also discuss film andtelevision business models, as
(01:23):
well as Karababo's careertrajectory as a professional in
the industry.
Let's get into it, friends.
Here's Karabo Lidija.
Can you introduce yourself?
What you do for a living andwhat your latest project is?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So my name is Karabo Lidija.
I am a writer and director bothfor television and film, and
I'm based in South Africa, inJohannesburg.
My latest offering is my debutfeature film, and it's titled
Sabbatical.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Great Congratulations on your debut feature.
How does it feel?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I feel very exposed, like I'm walking around naked
and I'm on camera and people arelike can see my body parts.
I feel very exposed because Iget personal work and all work
is personal, you know it justencourages a lot of personal
questions that when one makesthe work, you know you don't
really anticipate until you kindof release the work Until it's
(02:27):
out there.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, I feel like those, but a lot of affirmations
because a lot of you knowpeople seem to react quite
positively to the work.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I'll take that out you know yeah, so tell me, yes,
what is Sabbatical about?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Sabbatical is a film about Lisekojo.
She's in her mid-30s when itbegins.
She's uh waking up from ablackout.
She's clearly had a very longnight of drinking, or whatever
she was doing.
She's peed the bed, she'svomited on the pillow.
She wakes up from darkness, umlooks around and realizes that
(03:05):
she's in her childhood bedroom,which has really been
transformed by her verycontrolling mom.
It's like it's got all thefrills and the doilies, you know
, and she realizes that shesomehow um arrived home.
Whatever called her there.
When she tries to leave, sherealizes that all her bank
accounts have been suspended orfrozen and she can't really tell
(03:25):
her mother, who's obviously hasa lot of questions um that she
doesn't quite voice, she can'ttell her that she's in really
big trouble at this big kind ofbank where she works in job in
joburg.
Um, I guess her mom reallyworked hard to get her where she
is, you know to suppose herprivate boy and it's a big deal
(03:46):
for her to not be of this oldworld but to be on a pedestal
somewhere in kind of northernJohannesburg suburbs.
And now the truth of herfailure and, I guess, unwellness
, spiritually and mentally, thatopening scene had me so anxious
.
(04:10):
Anxiety is a good, it's a goodfeeling.
I was really trying to tochannel anxiety, you know, in me
because I have it a lot, and Iwas like, how do I play around
with just the feeling of anxiety, yeah, all the time, almost
like borrowing from horror, um,but yeah, basically that's that.
So the whole film is like therelationship with mother and
daughter kind of being rebirthedinto something maybe honest, um
, and a little darker, you knowyeah, yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I haven't seen many film like this coming out of
south africa.
I mean, it's a, it's somethingthat's been well at least on
mind, because I can relate tothe experience, having been to
multiracial or Model C schools,and I haven't seen it portrayed
on screen.
So I mean, what's the receptionbeen like?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Very similar to your school journal.
People are, which I didn'treally expect.
People are really happy to seethemselves on screen.
That's what they say and it's.
It's not the particularexperience of leseho and her
kind of upbringing and the modelc kind of you know experience,
but it's just generally seeingsouth african cues, nuances,
(05:17):
subtleties, you know, mother anddaughter, that respect and the
untruths and the truths you know, and just the quote.
A lot of people react quitestrongly to it because it's
quite, they say it's truthful.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yeah, so it's very similar to you, yeah yeah, it is
quite truthful that whole ideathat you know there are things
you cannot say uh in.
You know, in certain spaces, Imean, she still hides the fact
that she smokes from her mother,let alone that she's an and
it's a relatable experience forany south african woman because
(05:50):
there's because I was thinkingabout I really liked um american
indie films.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
You know, as I was growing up I was like, oh,
little miss sunshine, all thesecharacter studies.
You know it seems like quiteindulgent to to focus on small
moments and not like really bigturning points or events in the
film and I really wanted to dothat, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
And.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
I thought something like Greta Gerwig's Lady Bird or
whatever, which is a greatmother and daughter.
But in this instance you cansay, mom, I hate you and bang
the door.
You can't say, mom, what you?
You know what I mean, so Iwanted to play around with just
like being african and respectyour elders and yeah secrecy and
(06:33):
you know lack of truth as well,honesty as well.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
You know play around with with that as well, yeah,
but also the whole idea of beingworlds apart, right, I mean
they live in two differentworlds, like and you see that a
lot, especially, you know, whenyou've had a parent who
sacrificed everything to sendtheir child to get better
education so-called bettereducation.
But you know, yeah, I mean tellme about that dynamic and how
(06:58):
it comes across in the film.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So I was very interested in my mother's
generation and mine.
You know she grew up like fullyin apartheid.
I think she was born the sameyear as apartheid, 1948.
Her entire life is literallydictated by the system.
You know she can't really dowhat she wants to be.
(07:21):
You know in simple terms.
But she couldn't really fulfillany dreams she had.
She didn't even have thefreedom to dream.
You know, in simple terms, butshe couldn't really fulfill any
dreams she had.
She didn't even have thefreedom to dream, you know.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
And she kind of poured all of this kind of hope
and opportunity into herchildren.
You know, and I was thinkingabout parents who couldn't be
what their children can be, gowhere their children can go,
like travel things, like NewYork I was in Amsterdamrica for
two days whatever for them it's,it's literally a dream come
(07:49):
true because they couldn't bethose things, you know.
But the dream is it's a rottendream, it's like a fallacy,
because a lot of us are a few,you know, the only few people
who can fit into this world intowhite school corporate South
Africa.
It's, it's.
There's no fit.
You have to be something elseto fit in.
(08:09):
There's a sickness in it.
You know you, you can't reallybe yourself.
It doesn't allow you to be,because you know then it
wouldn't be the system, thatthen you'd be taking it all
changing it, it wouldn't work.
And I think parents are quitethey they don't, maybe they
don't, maybe they understand,but they don't want to verbalize
how brutal the success is,especially when the majority are
(08:31):
still living under such poverty.
You know and lack of access.
There's only a few of us thatare special, so I think it's
difficult for parents to admitthat it doesn't work, you know
yeah.
That the dream doesn't work.
Yeah, and then I thought alsoparents wanted us to be
(08:53):
successful.
As a result, we became other.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Alienated.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Exactly, we became alien, yeah yeah, we became
alienated, but alien to them.
There was an instant cultureclash, clash.
I was like my mom and I live intwo different cultures, you
know sure and my mom is greatbecause she's quite progressive,
so she leans in into my world.
You know, I try to lean intohers but you know, maybe 10
(09:18):
years ago it wasn't so it wasvery like there was a lot of
conflict and friction, you knowit's a journey.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
It's a journey, yeah so's a journey, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So I thought, wow, this gap and this particular gap
, my generation and my mother's,you know.
I think it gets you know alittle bit easier in inverted
commas, you know, the youngerpeople are, but I feel like
there's such a stark differencein the way we grew up and I was
interested in exploring that.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, I also liked the way you explored the I mean
not only the alien alienness of,you know, coming back home to
your mother, but also yourneighbors, you know, who didn't
have the same experience orupbringing as you.
It's just like this clash ofworlds where El Esejo,
particularly, is trying torelate to the next door
(10:05):
neighbors.
You know, she was friends withthe girl who lived next door and
now actually, funny enough, sherelates more to the daughter
who is?
to the daughter, to the neighbor, truly.
So that was, that was quiteinteresting, that you know that
alien experience is almost beinggapped.
Sorry, that gap is being closedby the younger generation.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Absolutely and with God Gets.
I wanted to the next Donate.
I really wanted to explore andit's like it's a problematic
thing because when there's nochoice, you know, did she have a
choice to pursue what Lissihopursued or not?
Or did she choose this life?
You know, because I want toexplore contentment, that
(10:51):
there's no failure in this woman, that she's quite content in
her, her life, her family.
She's not.
She, she's not hasn't failed ina way where perhaps truly would
see it as failure and Lissihowould see it as failure.
You know, yeah, I feel likeshe's.
She's much more mellow, shedoesn't have the anxiety that
(11:11):
Lissiho has and she's notchasing the thing that Lissiho
has.
I found that interesting thatthere's always a portrayal of
people back home having havingkind of fallen off or you know,
being disadvantaged or being orwanting more, you know, and I
wanted to explore this womanlike as a full character, who's
(11:31):
quite content and having areally good time.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I know she's just like God, there's freedom.
You're like, oh my gosh, she'splaying gigs.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
She's just living her best life you know doing hair,
she's in love.
Oh my gosh life.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
You know doing hair, she's in love.
Oh my gosh, there's a freedomthat comes with that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
I mean, I can only imagine that.
You drew from personalexperience.
But you know what kind ofresearch did you do for and, and
you know how did that look foryou, how did that process look
for you?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I was interested in and I had a kind of like a
personal conflict in displayingkind of black women characters,
african characters who aredabbling in crime or whatever,
like some, that kind of sinisterthing.
I didn't want kind of like anegative stereotype or
representation, but I wantedLissihua to have really fallen
(12:20):
in a shameful way, you know, andsomething that kind of gave her
agency.
You know, and something thatkind of gave her agency, you
know she was chasing somethingand she pushed too far.
Whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
So I wanted to have agency so that when Doris,
whatever deals with this idea,it really kind of hits his heart
.
It can't just be oh, she waslet go, whatever it had to be
something that she did thatbrings shame, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And then I know how complicated it is with these
cases and I read up a lot onthem Black women who are kind of
catapulted to these leadershippositions and are somehow
embroiled in, whether true ornot, but literally thrown under
the bus because they become thescapegoats no matter who's
involved.
It's always this black woman,and there's a list of them.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
So I went to PWCc.
All the cases that you knowcorporate yeah and a lot of them
.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
They're lots, they're lots, they're lots.
Um, so I yeah, I just kind ofobsessively read up on the cases
.
A lot of them kind of speak up,later become whistleblowers.
Some wrote, write a book, youknow, some are completely, they
vanish and or that they movehome and, you know, never can be
employed.
So I did a lot of that researchand then I did, I read a lot on
(13:35):
just like mental health incorporate South Africa yeah,
that is a under explored yeahyeah, so I read a lot of papers.
There are a lot of kind ofpapers about stress, some a book
or two, you know.
So I kind of because I'm aresearch brain I focused a lot
on on that.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Everything else was, yeah, pretty much drawn from the
personal yeah, and speaking ofthe writing process, did you
have a writer's room?
You know what.
What happened there and howlong did it take you?
Speaker 1 (14:06):
like I like this.
Uh, how long did it take you?
Because I've always heard likewriters say it was a 10-year
project or a six-year project.
In truth, we you know how muchof the years.
How much were you writing inthose years?
Right, I think it came.
I remember it, not not a lot.
It came to me.
I don't remember the genesis ofit, but I think it came to me
(14:26):
because I had like reallyextensive surgery and I had to
go home to recover for six weeksand my mom had to take care of
me because there was no one here.
Everybody I partied with waskind of like too young, whatever
, there was no home.
So I went home and my mom is anurse, so she's great at that,
maybe too great, maybe like, andthere's like this kind of idea
(14:49):
of you know people will heal you.
So there's always like too manyvisitors.
I'm like, lady, I just want anap.
I'm like, oh.
And then there's like she'sjuicing in an incredible way, so
like I'd take pictures of her.
She'd be on her way to work andshe'd be like bringing these
juices, I'd have pineapple andthis and that, and I was like yo
(15:12):
, give me a kiss, and thenthere'd be nobody calling before
they arrived.
It's like we've arrived.
I'm like yo, oh my gosh.
And then she'd call you to comesee them.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, my, oh, my gosh oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, so it from I think it came and I think I was
in and out of whatever.
It is pain medication, whatever, so it was kind of like a dream
or whatever nightmarish.
You know, I'm like, this ladyloves me.
This is love, but it's like,literally like it's love it was
like crazy love, and I think inthat moment she was obviously
(15:50):
very worried about me, so sheoverdid whatever she would
normally do, you know.
So the idea came from that andit became a short film I pitched
.
I remember I pitched it to someNMVF women's filmmaker Slade
and the one of the execs at N?
Nvf was like if you have aproblem with your mother, I
think you should deal with thisin therapy.
So that's what it is.
I was like, oh okay, so I leftit for long and then that was
(16:16):
probably at maybe 2080 or 3060,I don't remember yeah, probably
2060, and then I wanted to makeit into a future film.
I think I was bored and Istarted writing it out.
So no, no writer's room, justgoing into labs, I guess right
because I went to the Torontofilm lab and another kind of
French lab with a full script.
(16:36):
But what I believe in isbecause I wanted to kind of
feedback, especially from, likea global audience.
Don't know why, it's anaffirmation problem, um, but I
also kind of send it around forfeedback, but it's just all me,
but I do send it around forfeedback here right, right and
uh, speaking of uh labs, uh, didyou raise funding through that?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
uh to through those connections, you know how.
How did you finance it?
Speaker 1 (17:03):
um.
So the sabbatical is a part ofa slate of four feature films
from different it's.
It's kind of funded as like abusiness model.
You know um pre sold here, um,just sub-saharan region with
kind of festival potential andkind of recouping with sales
(17:26):
around the world.
It's like a business model.
Not every film is the same.
They're all kind of voice work,kind of films, an attempt to go
back to cinema post-covid,after matreto and them you know,
right.
So I I arrived to them after thelab.
They knew that because it's mybrother and my sister-in-law,
tamsin Anderson and GahisoDidiha.
(17:47):
They knew that I'd been workingon it and they wanted to make
it part of the slate because itwas quite ready, right.
So it became part of a slate offour.
The next one is Gahiso's formas well, and there are two more.
So, yeah, it's funded partrebate, part South African kind
(18:07):
of funding per estate or grant,part pre-sale to a licensed
thing and part private funding.
So, no, no, no, yeah, no labs,no, yeah, no labs.
I'm finding that, applying tointernational film festival
stuff, it's not doing well forthis film and it's an
(18:28):
interesting thing.
That's odd.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, it's such a specific story I would expect.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, so not to yeah sound I don't know negative, but
yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
It's not yeah, so that's interesting to me, but
you know yeah yeah, what do youthink the taste you know for
film from south africa lookslike is?
Are they more interested indocumentary or you know?
I mean, this is like kind of adocument of sorts.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, I know, right, it's like definitely archiving
of culture and a time for sure,I don't know, I mean I don't
want to get into trouble andnever get into people again, but
I think there is a certain gazethat African films have.
You know, I think people areused to a certain type of even
look and feel and style and kindof, most importantly, subject
(19:21):
matter.
You know, I don't know, I dothink this is not a regular kind
of offering from here in termsof film festivals at all.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
yeah, and how has the streaming, you know services,
arrival of streaming services,served the market in general?
For, you know, filmmakers suchas yourself?
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, I mean I.
So we worked on Queen Sono andwe being the brand day who
produced and also people that Iwork with all the time because
it's my brother and mysister-in-law so we worked on
Queen Sono, which was the firstAfrican original.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
I loved it.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
I was so sad when it didn't come back.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I know we're all very sad.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Because we're always trying to push something new,
like just new representationstuff.
You know, I also really likedit and we had really cool ideas
for, you know, more seasons forQueen S, queen sono, so that and
and it launched.
It started streaming infebruary 2020.
I think that was probably thelast big event before covid hit
(20:22):
and we had for a long time.
So that made cinema welldisappear, we can argue even
until now.
So it opened up a lot ofopportunity to to also meet,
because once queen sona wasstreaming around the world,
people were interested in southafrica.
So we had a lot of meetings forother projects, meetings as a
writer, because you know youcan't go to hollywood, people
(20:45):
are in their house so you could.
It just really opened upopportunities for general
meetings and you know the ideaof an agent who's based in the
us or whatever.
So I think that's because ofstreaming, because it's so
instant, like the distribution,so wide and it's you just never
know where it's gonna pop.
It could be malaysia, it couldbe.
So every time you're writingwe're always thinking about this
(21:06):
granny in malaysia.
Will she understand?
Whatever?
So it's only like becausethat's true, but as a result it
kind of suffocates the rest ofthe industry and the the entire
model, you know right, right,yeah, yeah because yeah, so so
there's a.
There's a win and a loss.
I'm I've also been interestedin licensing to to streamers as
(21:30):
well, as opposed to kind ofcollaborating with them for
original content.
I feel like it should be a mix,so coped up, licensing and then
originals working with them.
It's done a lot for theindustry, but I feel like we
always need that diversity.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, you can't just have onemodel for the entire industry.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yeah, exactly yeah, so that.
That's a that.
Yeah, the entire industry.
Yeah, exactly yeah, so thatthat's a that.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yeah, that's a problem, yeah yeah hey, it's
shades and layers.
With today's guest, karabulidiha, we are discussing her
debut feature film, sabbatical,which I absolutely love and
recommend, and also talkingabout how she built her career
in the film industry.
Up next, we discuss the castenergy on set and also how the
film industry Up.
Next, we discuss the castenergy on set and also how the
(22:15):
film has been received so far.
So did you see a lot of mom anddaughter you know pairs
attending the premiere ofSabbatical.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
That thing was very strange for me, because I didn't
, because we premiered atRotterdam Film Festival and
there it's like such, it's afestival, you know, yeah, sure,
like a world premiere.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
That's interesting, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
It's very like toned down.
It's maybe your programmer, oneperson for the festival, the
lead, the producer.
There's not much dramahappening, there's literally
nobody outside.
You walk in, you watch the filmand you talk about the film.
So I didn't't in my head, Ididn't anticipate press, I
didn't anticipate.
I feel so naive.
(22:59):
So as soon as I was likewaiting for us to go watch the
film because I made a film foryou to watch and then tell
people and then I was like, ohmy gosh, so I saw nobody.
I saw one or two.
I thought I'd ask them how itwent.
Yeah, I wanted to know about thedrama, whatever, but no, there
(23:20):
were many.
I know there were many, but Ididn't see them.
I hear they were there, yeah.
Yeah, great, but it would beinteresting to kind of delve
into that, because I was tryingto make this experiment to see,
yeah, like black mothers anddaughters watching this.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I mean, I could imagine, I could imagine doing
that.
You know, it's also like suchan unusual thing taking your mom
to the cinema, like it's notsomething that you think of,
right, I know, but I was likewhat, what I was like, oh, but
in my idealistic way and I workwith idealistic people, you know
, oh, we can push this.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
take your mother to, you know, to the cinema, and I
think nobody thinks about I meanin America and everywhere else
they'll think about making filmsfor, like, the older female
audience whatever it is.
Diane Keaton stars in somethingwhatever.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Right, right and here , like people just disappear.
You don't even see the oldladies on screen, right.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
On screen.
I'm just like how guys?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
like, like, how do you?
And also, as I grow older, I'mlike am I disappearing as like a
target?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
absolutely, absolutely, it's a consideration
, interest in yeah, in kind ofmaking people exist.
But how could it be normal togo to the cinema with your mom
when there's nothing really towatch with her?
What would you watch?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
yeah, I, I wouldn't even think of it.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I mean, there's some content which is like I, I'm not
coming to with my mom to comeand watch this because I was
sitting with my, my mom, who, asyou can imagine, has been in
the cinema many times, you know,and she's very vocal.
The thing that she she reactedmore to wasn't anything else.
(24:54):
It's like she was the smokinggot to her.
She was like yo, oh gosh, it'sa thing.
It's a thing I was like, okay,this is very effective, because
I like that it gets to them, youknow.
Yeah, because it's who she is.
You don't want to see it andyou will see it.
She's like she's got eyes.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, will see it.
She's like she's got a vice.
Yeah, a smoking girl, oh, butthe drunken scene where she's
with those guys and she doesn'teven know what she's drinking oh
my gosh, honestly, my anxietywas really really high watching
Leseho.
She's like this girl has nosense of self-preservation
everybody's like, even on set.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Even I got annoyed.
On set I was like you know what?
Let's say enough.
Let's say you've got it toolike I'm like.
Let's say oh man, enough, youknow I.
I felt, even on set people werejust like yo.
Let's see this girl.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yeah, but what a great lead character.
Mona was so amazing.
Yeah, but the entire cast, Imean, I was really, really
believing.
I even took Loiso seriously foronce.
Oh good, some people.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I was like that's a huge gamble because I wanted to.
It was a huge gamble for mebecause I was like I don't want
to, I don't want laughter tocome out.
I was like, but why not?
I wanted it to be on the verge.
You know that if you know, ifyou know him, you'll be like.
But but I wanted it to because,also, he's so huge.
I thought that was funny aswell yeah, so.
(26:20):
I'm like I'm playing yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I wanted him to be imposingin the small world, and I think
he did really well yeah, yeah,yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely
.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
But let's talk about your career and its trajectory.
First of all, how you got intothis business and you know, kind
of address the deeper meaningyou attached to your activities
when you said, okay, this iswhat I want to do with my life
and I'm going for it.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I've always, I don't know, and maybe it's.
I don't think I've everarticulated this before because
I feel like I had a little bitof a traumatic upbringing, as we
all did, growing up where wewere at the time.
We grew up but my parents gotdivorced I think I was 11.
It was quite a before that.
Building up to it, it wasn't afun time.
Sometimes, I think I only nowin therapy I'm like, oh shoot,
(27:10):
I'm remembering what I kind ofnumbed or kind of locked away,
but I think I escaped in storyand writing stuff or you know, I
think that was my escape andfantasy.
So I have like this thing ofkind of going to a better place.
I'll be like, oh my gosh, nowI'm in Italy.
Oh no, I don't like Italy, I'min Barcelona.
Um, you know, I'm like, andthen I had to like come back.
(27:31):
This is a coping mechanism.
This is not and there's someheartbreak and going into
fantasy when it's a copingmechanism where you're like
running away from pain.
You know, I have a very lowthreshold for pain that I'm
trying to fix, you know.
But I realized there's kind ofsomething amazing about being
able to dream and fantasize andthat I can channel into
(27:52):
storytelling.
So it's almost like my, myAchilles heel became my, also my
power, that right, if I focuswell, that I can kind of dream
up story in a way that's healthy, productive.
And I'm only realizing this now.
But I've always kind of toldstories to myself to make the
world better or feel better orless painful.
Yeah so, but when I?
because I was really good atmath and science, so I was going
(28:15):
to study mechanical engineering, which I did- for a year in
cape town and my mom was likewhy you're always writing songs
for us, you're always telling usstories, you always write mom
power to you, but not you.
And my brother was already atuct doing drama, so you can
imagine he was just like we'recool people, we're're not
engineers.
You know, he had a nightmarethat I'd be.
(28:36):
I'd have 10 babies in such agroup.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I don't know where this comes from oh my gosh, he
had never I don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
He's just like I guess it's escape.
He's like we can't be people wegot to.
So he was very much wantingCape Town.
My mom must know that he'lltake care of me in Cape Town.
So I decided on engineering,but at least I'd be there, you
know.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
But he and my mom really really pushed me to try
something else and at the time Iwas like I don't really like
this engineering, I don't likethese people.
It was very male.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Sure, absolutely.
Yeah, I was just thinking CapeTown engineering.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Maybe, Vets would have been different, but Cape
Town, I think so, yeah, I thinkI was being called Boki Boki and
then I was like, oh my God, no,and I was imagining three more
years of this or whatever in mylife and I was like I was going
to be unhappy.
So I went to a fair and acareer fair and there was a
course, a new course film mediastudies at UCT that I applied to
(29:34):
and that was the thing.
I guess, yeah, it's justhonoring who I am, with the help
of the people who love me?
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I guess, yeah, and this storytelling thing, you
know, do you think it'ssomething that runs in the
family?
I mean, I know it was yourescape.
Where did it come from?
Or it's just something youworked on?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
So my maternal grandmother.
She has more, more names.
I made a short film about herin her honor, called what did
you dream?
And I often thought, wow, whata great hero like and not like
nelson mandela or just anybodyelse that's in the books or in
the media, whatever I was like,but we had heroes.
You know, she made in a toughtime, she made with very little,
she made life so soft andmagical and it was story really.
And the what did you dream wasabout five feet, or muchina as
(30:19):
we called it in pretoria, howshe played it.
Only later I was like, oh shoot, she was playing it to buy
bread and stuff, but she made itlike fantasy thing.
You know how they ask us whatdid you dream?
And then you have to like weavethese stories and then she'd be
like that's number seven, ohKuku.
Kuku was like got you, yes,daddy, and then you get the
(30:39):
treat.
So that was kind of the film,the basis of the film.
But she also told all sorts ofstories with song and stuff and
all the cousins would be there,either as holidays or the ones
that lived there.
So it's quite magical andkuku's kind of kitchen is the
one that's in the pure monatish.
That's the one where, yeah,okay, I feel like my mom says my
(31:08):
paternal grandfather, who waslike a really great Presbyterian
.
Yeah, yeah, she says he, he isthe storyteller.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I can imagine I mean preacher man.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Hey, yeah, and my mom is like a great storyteller.
Sometimes I'm like no lady,that's not how it's happening.
You know, when your mom, whenpeople come, the no, no, I'm
always like that lady and it'svery much performative.
You know, when your mom, whenpeople come, the pitch is like
higher, I'm like calm down, youknow.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
But my mom is very yeah she's let's not lady.
Very, very nice and you getinto this space.
You took an education in this,but you know what tools, which
people are helping you on yourjourney to make this a reality.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
So I think what helped me the most was starting
off as a researcher, because Iworked as a researcher for all
sorts of things, you know Right.
And I guess I was a goodresearcher because I had a good
story brain.
But I kind of hid in researchbecause I was afraid of the
writing.
So it took me a long time to bea writer.
But I was mostly a researcher.
I worked on Take Five five.
(32:16):
I knew everything about hiv,aids, I know everything about
prep, I know everything.
So I know things about escom,how lights work, because I
worked on game shows and youknow all sorts of stuff.
So I feel like the researcherbrain really made my story brain
so much stronger.
You know, um, sometimes peoplewill be like don't start with
research because that will limityou, start with story and go
crazy and then come back andmake it believable, yeah, but I
(32:39):
find that difficult.
I feel like research is a greatstart.
So that's, that's been great,and I'm very lucky to have been
in comedy, because it's a veryunserious space, you know it
doesn't, and it's very welcoming.
It's all sorts of you.
You could be a banker nowyou're a stand-up comedian,
you're a doctor, like.
So it's a very liberal spaceand doesn't have the pressure of
fame.
In that way, it's like theylaugh at you.
(33:00):
You're famous because theylaughed at you, which is such a
great thing.
It's not because you aregorgeous or you want to right
yeah and it's like, it's almostlike a convention of crazies.
You know, yeah, that you youbuild with and you build a tone
and kind of community with.
And it's so open that I I was awriter and then I learned how
to direct and sketch because, uh, we worked with on the bunch
(33:22):
hour with brahima, which is like, wow he was, he's like he was a
co-presenter with carrizo.
He's like he's there, oh mygosh, with the band, yeah, you
can imagine.
So I'm in the writing room withbrahu and he's like, do you
know when I was, whatever?
Then we are kind ofbrainstorming sketches and kind
of monologues for this latenight news show, which is
(33:43):
brilliant.
Brilliant yeah, and it was andwith sketch we come up with all
sorts of things.
You know, like some likethere's a haunting in the house
and there's some comedy twist toit, and that's like the
satirical thing.
As a director, I have to learnhow to work with horror now, or
there's like an action scenechasing the maguinha thief or
whatever.
I have to learn how to do achase sequence.
(34:05):
So it became kind of auniversity for story genre and
directing ultimately.
So I think that community alsoreally helped my story.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Right, you're listening to Shades and Layers
and my guest today isaward-winning film writer and
director Karabole Dikha.
Up next we get deeper into whata successful creative career
can look like.
She also has some tips on whatto do to get your foot in the
door as a young professional andalso how to have a sustainable
(34:37):
career once you're there.
So you've had a lot of hands-onexperience to sharpen your
skills.
So somebody who's starting outnow and wants to be like you,
emulate your career.
What would you advise them todo?
Speaker 1 (34:51):
I think that there are maybe two things I can think
of now.
I think being yourself reallyis your best bet, Because I
think there's a lot of pressureto mimic all sorts of things.
It could be anything, it couldbe, I don't know, South Korean
cinema, it could.
Whatever it is, it could be.
I think being yourself becausethere's no other one like you,
there's no other voice like you,is really a good idea.
(35:14):
And secondly and this is toughit's a very tough question to
answer, because there's so fewways to enter this industry.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
That's what I'm wondering exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Because there's all these people who are like, let
me tell you what to do.
I'm like I don't know.
It's a tough industry and itshouldn't be, you know, and it's
all about who you know and youknow, and it's all about who you
know.
And what worked for me isbecause I knew somebody who had
started before me, you know.
So it's hard, I think,pestering people I get pestered
a lot, and pestering peoplemeans going to film festivals,
going to screenings and chasing,you know, watching their stuff,
(35:46):
whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Being in the environment, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Being in the environment and then having
always something ready.
Because, as I write, one of myproducers once said work on the
script before you involveanybody else, because that's
literally the most control youhave and it's your biggest
investment, right?
Because it's just me with mycomputer, whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
So make that investment work on have
something ready.
Always I found that even withthe short film I had something
ready already.
You know right when somesomebody says there's a call out
at this and that and that, andthey always call out because
south africa is one of the fewkind of industries or countries
in the world that funds filmfrom like the tax base.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
It's right, I know we complain a lot, but yeah, I
didn't know that I didn't knowthat yeah, it didn't know that.
Yeah, it's usually a privateventure, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Absolutely.
Yeah, like Nigeria doesn't haveNigerian Film Commission or
don't complain.
Well, you didn't give us money,only funding these other people
.
We have a lot.
We have the tax rebate systemIn Gauteng, we have the Film
Commission, we have the NationalFilm and Video Foundation, you
know.
We have the IDC that fundsbusiness models.
Kzn has its own film commission.
They all fund things and theyhave a mandate to fund from tier
(36:56):
one to three, meaning beginningstudent level to mid to
professional, as they say,whatever seasoned.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Those things exist, and my first short film, which I
don't want to show anybody,which is great because I guess
it was a learning thing wasthrough the NAVF's female
filmmaker slate, which is hasbeen going for years yeah, yeah
and at the time somebody haddropped out and somebody who
worked on the project said doyou have anything?
and I had something.
(37:23):
I was like, oh, here's thething.
They were like, oh, this thingis great, it's great.
Always have something and applyto these things, you know, and
go to the, to the places yeah,yeah, that's it, yeah, okay,
that's great.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
So network, be out there, have something ready, and
filmmaking it's like such atime-consuming pursuit.
Right, you're doing this onething.
You know how do you maintainyourself in the meantime while
you're waiting for your film tobe to be funded?
You know what kind of thingsdid you do, for example.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
I guess Johannesburg as an industry is very
television based.
I've always been like atelevision brain, a very much a
television work.
You know when they say you wantto job up to work.
I was coming here to work ontelevision yep and because I
always want to be quiteversatile, because you can't
really do one thing here, itdoesn't work, especially in this
industry you gotta find ways todifferent things.
(38:10):
So I've always been a tv writerfor hire so I write all sorts of
genre.
I've written prison drama, I'vewritten virtual psycho thriller
type things.
Comedy it's not always comedy,I love it.
I just love playing around, youknow, and more recently,
working as a director for hireas well, I found that it's like
a little bit faster in terms ofthe timelines and you can kind
(38:34):
of have more of it.
Three months here writing canbe quite long.
So I'm a freelancer and I doall sorts of things Writing work
mostly, and directing work,yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
So it's finally culminated in this huge
milestone, which is sabbatical.
What are your other proudmoments?
Do you have maybe two or threemore that you'd like to share?
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I mean, I'm really proud of my short film.
It was something quite honestand it touches people in a in an
interesting way because itreminds you of my grandmother.
You know, this is a superpower,this thing.
I'm like I must keep doing thisthing because I wanted to make
a nostalgia piece.
That's kind of very like youcan almost like feel and touch
this place, this memory place,you know.
(39:15):
Memorabilia is cold andnostalgia.
Really it's sweet and it's kindof indulgent and it's one-sided
, you know.
So I wanted to make that andI'm really, really proud of it.
I think generally all mywriting work really, if I saw it
through as a writer, I reallyenjoyed it and I put myself in
it, because often I'd startprojects and I'd be like, no, I,
(39:37):
I don't.
I don't believe with this.
I don't believe in thestereotyping.
I think this is a terriblepremise.
I don't think this shows womenin a good light, men in a good
light.
I don't want to put my spiritin this and no matter what it is
, it doesn't matter what it isright, but I won't be able to
see it through because I like toput myself in it and kind of
jam with it.
I worked on Emoen.
It was a four-part series andit was like a tissue with a
(39:58):
Google brainchild, you know ohyeah.
Yeah, it was really beautiful.
They wanted to make this kindof somewhere between the African
spiritual realm and psychology,like this kind of blurred line.
So I wrote a script for thatseries and you know, know, as a,
writer yeah, it's reallybeautiful, interesting, so I'd
(40:19):
send this as a sample, rightlike a sample writing, and
people will be like what is,what is this?
This has really done well formy.
You know, sending people mysample writing queen sauna was
also a great um milestone aswell, yeah, innovation as well,
something new, you know.
Yeah, um, yeah, there are lotsof things I'm proud of, mostly
(40:39):
my writing, my writing work,yeah sure and who is on your
list of people I have to meet inthis lifetime?
Speaker 2 (40:48):
do you have some famous black women you'd like to
?
Yeah, let's say famous blackwomen famous black women.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
It's always Ava DuVernay man, you know yeah, and
.
I.
I just think there's something.
I was having a conversationwith a friend and kind of
colleague today.
He wanted to meet to say whatnext?
Karabo?
So I had to like okay, what,what are we doing next?
I don't know.
You know, and yesterday afriend of mine who's a
cinematographer and director,natalie Harhohoff, sent me I
(41:14):
know natalie yeah, she workedwith us right here.
Oh really, yeah, that's greatyeah she sent me um, an old from
a podcast from 2019, evaduvenet and she was like I don't
know if you've heard this, butthis kind of made me think of
you.
And then I was in an interviewand somebody asked me the same
question.
I was like, oh, eva DuVernay.
(41:35):
Before that I was like, whoa,look at this, you know.
So I listened to it last nightand I was like she's she's very
I guess she's not comfortablewith the fact that she has to do
more than just make films.
You know, because her peers whoare not black women, just make
films they're like what's nextfor fun just to do the work, to
(41:55):
create spaces, for herself firstand for other black women, you
know yeahso her work is triple fold,
double fold.
It's like it's a burden becauseit takes away from creative
life, you know right, but shedoes it.
There's nothing in place for it.
Because, if you, if you,because I feel like I've also
been very passive I wait, I'mlike, oh, this festival said no.
Like, oh, this festival said no, I'm terrible.
Or this festival said, no, I'mnot good.
(42:17):
You know, but why does thefestival say no?
How do I get my films to beseen by you know people?
Maybe not this big festival,but maybe a black film festival,
who do I know?
You know what I mean.
Right so being kind of proactivein creating something new.
So being kind of proactive increating something new, even
this film is cause I could havedone what festivals like or what
(42:38):
I've seen they like, or I couldhave done what streamers like I
could have you know, abided bywhat's already there, but I was
like, oh, let me be honest, andthere's a price to pay, but
there's opportunity with honestywhatever.
But I feel like I'm already kindof doing something more than
just creating, and I think Ineed to do more like Ava you
know she does so much, create somuch, and she comes up with
(43:00):
solutions for the industry, fordistribution, for representation
.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
You know yeah, I also really like teaching and
developing young voices as well.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
So I feel like, yeah, I'd like to just chill with Ava
and kind of yeah, definitelyAva, I mean there are others,
but she really stands out, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
What do you think of the Shonda Rhimes model?
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Yo, I think, as a television beast, I, as somebody
who who works in television, Ithink she's incredible in what
she does, and television isinteresting because it's it has
such different kinds of demandsas well.
You know it.
It's the success of it is nextseason, next season, next season
, absolutely the success of itis going here you know, yeah,
(43:38):
you have to keep going.
You know, and I think even usas a collective queen sono one
time whatever, there's a lot ofone time because you're trying
to break ground, you know, yeahyeah just like change, change
the vibe, change the tone, justchange the offering.
And it's hard to to startbecause viewers are not used to
it or streamers don't market itwell because it's just not what
(44:00):
has worked for the algorithm orwhatever it is.
Sure, yeah, I feel like wefigured it out very well,
especially starting with thingslike Grey's Anatomy, something
quite palatable for everybody,and then kind of going into very
specific.
That was clever, yeah, veryclever.
That was very smart, palatablefor everybody, and then kind of
go into very specific yeah, veryclever.
That's like a tv brain, likethat's like a master of
(44:21):
television.
You know, and then she can doprivate practice.
You know interesting thingsthat can be a little bit more
specific or more black orwhatever it is, but she built
this thing and that's how justtelevision works, you know yeah,
so yeah, she's speaking ofdoing more than, um, uh, make
creative pursuits.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
What kind of platforms or opportunities do
you think a film like sabbaticalgives access to or has opened
now I?
Speaker 1 (44:50):
hadn't it was always the idea of let me make a
calling card my desires kind ofchanged.
You know when, when you put outsomething and you have
different expectations of it andsomething else comes, you're
like, oh shoot, I thought I'djust get a ticket into I don't
know caa and have meetings withpeople who want you know it's
always foreign.
(45:11):
It's always western, you know,but I think I'd like somebody to
understand the voice this is avoice this is, it's gonna be
this, and think it's interestingenough to give to find more of
this voice and it would beinteresting if it was maybe like
a straight up kind of comedyseries with like a black woman
lead who's kind of theantithesis of black girl magic.
(45:32):
She's like really messed uplike this lead in my film Sure.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
And I wanted to call it out of training.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
I was like we're not.
We might look it, but we don'tknow what's happening.
If somebody says I'm like Idon't know, lady, where are the
lyrics?
Let me Google, you know.
So, I find this bumbling thing,or the opposite of perfection,
and like kind of blackexcellence, interesting, you
(45:59):
know.
So I feel like this is a goodcalling card for that kind of
offering, but to make otherfeature films in the same vein.
I feel like I'm obsessed withthis divide, almost like we
immigrants in the same country.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Absolutely, and those wounds are still there.
Man, I mean imagine being thefirst, I mean we were some of
the next, but the first batch ofblack girls who, like, went to
private schools.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Well then, hey, can you just imagine?
And you also left home in ataxi Some of us you know, in a
coon bee, you woke up at four.
Your parents are like, hey,make it work, make it work.
You know you woke up at four.
Your parents are like, hey,make it work, make it work.
You know, yeah, and you're alot of it is a silent suffering
or whatever it is.
Yeah, so I'm obsessed.
I can't even going to.
For me, going from social Ialways say social, but I'm sure
(46:46):
I was living somewhere else atthe time um to uct.
For me it was like guys, canyou imagine being?
Yeah, I mean, I didn't knowwhat it was, I didn't know what
it was, yeah.
So yeah, I feel like I'mobsessed with this divide.
Hopefully I'll get it out of mysystem, but yeah, there seems
to be a lot of this kind ofcommentary.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely great.
So sabbatical is out, you canwatch it in cinemas in just in
south africa for now, okay.
Any plans for streaming orother ways to watch it?
Speaker 1 (47:18):
absolutely eventually .
Yeah, we would like to have iton a streaming platform.
I think it's interesting forfilmmakers to be allowed the
opportunity to exploit all thedifferent bits of the value
chain.
You know, um, cinema's hardhere, but I think it's a good
kind of effort.
If it's not mine, maybe thenext film from somebody else,
(47:39):
just to start that appetite,because I think filmmakers need
to start recouping also fromcinema, you know yeah because
the streamers don't alwaysmarket your stuff.
Sometimes they swallow your,your films to never be heard of
again, so it doesn't work forthe director or the production
company.
You know you might get a fee,but I think it's important to
try and exploit every kind ofwindow, yeah, every single, even
(48:01):
just to try, you know, becauseeven the distributors are like
it's a hard environment.
We're like, okay, it's hard,let's try, let's just try.
Yeah, so eventually it will be.
I, eventually it will be, Iwon't say when, until people go
to watch it.
Great.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Let's get them out there, man.
Yeah, it's such a relatablestory.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Come on, we'll get them out there, and it's also
entertaining.
Exactly, I want to makesomething entertaining, like you
know.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Yeah, no, no, no, it's great fun and so much
better than all these you knowmade for Netflix things that you
find.
I mean I was like properentertained, I was like I was
invested in the characters, doyou?
Know, what's going to happen,you know.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
I really want also wanted to make this French lab
it's called the group west thatI went to.
It was all COVID, so it wasonline but for a year.
Their model is to have likethese kind of french new wave,
kind of very artistic kind ofcinema, um, merged with kind of
american entertainment, likeplot driven stuff.
(49:01):
I was interested in that.
I was like, oh, you could havean artistic piece, because I
don't want navel gazers, I don'twant just people being like, oh
, wank, wank.
I feel like sure I feel like youshould be doing more than just
you kind of talking about yourlife.
I don't know.
Imagine me recovering fromsurgery and that's my story.
So I had to come up with plotsand twists and turns which I
(49:23):
like, that model, you know, sothat it's actually commercially
viable and it hooks somebody andit's entertaining.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
So if people want to work with you, invite you to a
talk or a film festival, wherecan they find you?
Speaker 1 (49:36):
My email address.
I'm always.
I'm very proud to say I have nounread emails in my inbox.
I've seen people like I waslike no, I'm always waiting for
somebody.
Oh, guilty, everybody else.
I'm like, I will read everyemail.
I don't know why, why?
But my email address is klidigaat gmailcom.
K-l-e-d-i-g-a at gmailcom.
(49:57):
Great, perfect.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
And that is all from me this time around.
Thanks to Karabo for sharinghis story.
Do go and check out Sabbatical.
You don't have to be SouthAfrican or a mother-daughter
pair to enjoy it.
It's just a great story told bya great storyteller.
More information is availablein the show notes.
Thanks for listening andremember to share this episode
(50:20):
with a friend.
I'm Kuduanos Kosanarichi, anduntil next time, please do take
good care.
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