Challenging a broken system often requires walking an unconventional path. Jono Lippman's journey from communications major to wilderness guide to emergency medicine PA beautifully illustrates how diverse experiences can reshape our understanding of what healthcare education could and should be.
What happens when someone who once actively avoided science classes finds themselves drawn to medicine through wilderness first responder training? For Jono, it sparked a transformative journey that would eventually lead him to create one of the most innovative medical education resources available to PA students today.
Throughout our conversation, Jono shares raw insights about navigating burnout early in his career—a seven-month period of being "functionally homeless" while traveling Europe that helped him rediscover his purpose. This perspective informs his dual practice in both busy city emergency departments and remote critical access hospitals, where his autonomy as a provider is pushed to its limits.
The heart of our discussion centers on Jono's passionate mission to overthrow the "drinking from a fire hose" mentality in medical education. "It's a stupid cliché we use because we're too lazy to try to change things in medicine," he explains with refreshing candor. His solution? The PA Guide—a comprehensive illustrated notebook and course that provides students with a clear map through the overwhelming terrain of medical knowledge.
What makes Jono's approach revolutionary isn't just the content but the philosophy behind it. By rejecting the cultural norm that suffering through chaos is somehow necessary for becoming a good clinician, he's created a system that empowers students to learn effectively without burning out. His resources meet diverse learning styles through illustrations, organized content frameworks, quizzes, and even an AI chatbot that functions like an attending physician.
Ready to challenge how you think about medical education? Listen now, then visit pa-guide.com to discover how Jono's resources might transform your learning journey or the experience of someone you know in healthcare education.
Follow Jono's instagram https://www.instagram.com/jono.pa/ and check out his website for more information!
Virtual shadowing is an important tool to use when planning your medical career. At Shadow Me Next! we want to provide you with the resources you need to find your role in healthcare and secure your place in medicine.
Check out our pre-health resources. Great for pre-med, pre-PA, pre-nursing, pre-therapy students or anyone else with an upcoming interview!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Shadow Me Next, a podcast where
I take you into and behind thescenes of the medical world to
provide you with a deeperunderstanding of the human side
of medicine.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor and thecreator of Shadow Me Next.
It is my pleasure to introduceyou to incredible members of the
(00:22):
healthcare field and uncovertheir unique stories, the joys
and challenges they face andwhat drives them in their
careers.
It's access you want andstories you need, whether you're
a pre-health student or simplycurious about the healthcare
field.
I invite you to join me as wetake a conversational and
personal look into the lives andminds of leaders in medicine.
(00:44):
I don't want you to miss asingle one of these
conversations, so make sure thatyou subscribe to this podcast,
which will automatically notifyyou when new episodes are
dropped, and follow us onInstagram and Facebook at Shadow
Me Next, where we will reviewhighlights from this
conversation and where I'll giveyou sneak previews of our
upcoming guests.
(01:04):
Today, I'm joined by Jono Lipman, a physician assistant with an
amazing journey into medicine.
After starting as acommunications major in college
and working as a wildernessguide, jono eventually
discovered his passion forhealthcare through wilderness
first responder training.
Now he practices in emergencymedicine and rural critical
(01:25):
access hospitals, where his roleis both dynamic and autonomous.
In addition to his clinicalwork, jono is the creator of the
PA Guide, a resource that helpsPA students manage the
overwhelming content of theircoursework and develop critical
thinking skills.
His goal is to transformmedical education by offering a
(01:48):
more structured and supportiveapproach, empowering students to
avoid burnout and succeed intheir careers.
In this episode, jono shareshis unique path, lessons from
his experiences and how he'shelping shape the future of
medical education.
Please keep in mind that thecontent of this podcast is
intended for informational andentertainment purposes only and
(02:11):
should not be considered asprofessional medical advice.
The views and opinionsexpressed in this podcast are
those of the host and guests anddo not necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany other agency, organization,
employer or company.
This is Shadow Me Next withJono Lipman.
Hey Jono, thank you so much forjoining me today on Shadow Me
(02:33):
Next.
I am thrilled to talk to youabout not just your career and
your job, but what you havecreated.
Thank you for joining us thismorning.
Jono (02:43):
You're welcome.
I think this would be fun.
Let's get into it.
Ashley (02:46):
Let's get into it.
Awesome, Okay.
So let's start at the beginning.
What drew you to medicine andbeing a PA in the first place?
Was it a challenge for you tokind of arrive at at where
you're at right now?
Jono (02:59):
Oh, totally.
So I am, um, what I woulddescribe as when when I was in
PA school, the weakest candidatein my program and a career
change student.
So I was a communication major.
I avoided science my entirecollege undergrad experience
because I hated it so much inhigh school and put it off to my
(03:21):
last semester of my senior yearof college.
And then at one point incollege I was like, oh, maybe I
should go into medicine, like,and I don't know where the stock
initially came from.
But then I was like, nah, I'mwatching too much scrubs.
Like that was that was it.
And then I talked myself out ofit.
Um, I didn't know what a PA was.
(03:41):
Then this was like, uh, Igraduated 2009 from college.
I didn't know what a PA was.
Then this was like I graduated2009 from college.
So I worked for a decade or sodoing like I was like an outdoor
adventure director and abackpacking guide and I work
with students and do a lot oflike programmatic stuff and
really, really enjoyed it.
Thinking that at some point Iwas like, oh, maybe I'll become
(04:06):
a teacher because I loveteaching, I love just engaging
students where they're at andchallenging them.
So I was like, oh, maybe I'llbecome a teacher.
So looked into the process ofdoing that and my thought was,
oh, I'll become a teacher, thenover the summer I'll run my own
high adventure program,backpacking program or something
like that.
Like, that seems like a cool,seems like a cool life, um.
(04:28):
So I did a to open up moreopportunity in the wilderness
side of things, did a wildernessfirst responder course, which
is a very basic, uh, kind oflike an EMT course for the
wilderness, um, and it was aweek long camping out doing um,
basically like didactic coursesfor what we had to learn.
And I walked away from that.
(04:49):
I'm like Whoa, that was supercool.
I really liked that.
I want to do that, but I hatescience, so what do I do?
Um, and so I just kind of likeI was like, well, I guess I'll
get my EMT license, I'll do thatnext.
And so I did that all the whilestill doing this outdoor stuff,
(05:09):
and just had this thought inthe back of my head like maybe
I'll do this, maybe I'll do this.
Like my mom was a nurse.
She went back to school when Iwas in kindergarten, so I saw
someone change their careerbefore and I saw how much work.
It was so.
So I had this interest.
I had this thing going in myhead.
I was like, oh, I'll, I'll dothis, um, but then I kept
(05:31):
talking myself out of it, Um,and then I had like two, two
kind of events that are a coupleof events that pushed me in
their direction.
One is I got married and my wifewas working at Starbucks and I
was working full time and shewas making more money than me
and I was like, well, I've gotto figure out something to make
more money.
And then I was working thesesituations where I'm telling
(05:53):
students all the time like, hey,step outside your comfort zone,
step outside your comfort zone,push yourself.
You know you could do it.
And I was like, well, what'soutside my comfort zone?
And my first thought was takinga science class.
I was like, fine, and my firstthought was taking a science
class.
I was like, ugh, fine.
And then my wife eventually waslike you just need to shut up,
stop talking about this and signup for a class.
And so then, being 27, signingup for a community college bio
(06:15):
101 class, where I did notremember what the mitochondria
was, I did not remember whatosmosis was, I didn't remember
any of this stuff and I didchemistry.
I'm like I hated that and thengot into anatomy and physiology
and just loved it and all thattime I was thinking I'll be a
nurse, like that just makessense.
My mom was a nurse, I'll be anurse.
My wife was thinking she'd be anurse and so we're kind of
(06:37):
headed in that direction.
I started working with PAs andI really liked the PAs I was
working with.
We seemed to get along.
I should keep going down thatroute.
And then at some point Irealized I qualified for PA
schools and ended up applying to22 of them.
Then I got in and then gotthrough it and we can talk about
(07:01):
that experience.
But I've been a PA for overfive years now and here we are.
Ashley (07:06):
This is the number one question that I get from pre-PA
and actually just pre-healthstudents generally speaking is
Ashley, do you think I'm behind?
These are usually juniors orseniors in college who have
almost all of the prerequisitesalready needed to go to the
graduate program of their choice, whether it's PA school,
(07:28):
medical school, et cetera.
And I'm just so grateful and soinspired by your story because
you didn't take a science classin college until the last
semester and then after that,you were unsure and you were
that you still you were unsureand you were trying, just trying
the things that you wereinterested in, right.
(07:48):
And I think that there is thispressure to rush through and get
in and get accepted so quicklyand and my, I'd love to know
what your thoughts are on thisCause I'm sure you counsel
students on this too, but lifehappens in between those periods
, right, and the things that youlearned working as a wilderness
(08:10):
first responder or an EMTlikely shaped who you are now as
a PA.
What do you tell those students?
Jono (08:18):
I'll answer in two ways.
One, I directly tell a lot ofstudents because they say what
do I need to do for my gap year?
And my response is you need toput the term gap year to death
and you need to go live yourlife.
Because the challenge now thatPA students are facing is not
that they're 40 years old andthey've been a paramedic and now
they're like how do I go backto school?
They're 23, 24, and they'regoing up against every other 23,
(08:41):
24 year old who has basicallypre-med qualifications.
That's not applying to PAschool.
So how do you set yourselfapart from that?
The only way to set yourselfapart from that is have actual
life experience.
Actual life experience doesn'tnecessarily come from patient
care, experience for a year as atech or an MA or something.
It is actually going out andbuilding a story, because that's
(09:04):
what your personal statement is, that's what your interview is,
is telling your story so youcan stick out.
What I ended up experiencingearly on in my career, like
post-grad life, was massiveburnout, to the point that I had
this very idealistic job thateveryone who I went to undergrad
with was like oh cool, you'redoing the thing, congratulations
(09:26):
, what an amazing job, everyoneyou know growing my, you know
growing my network, you knowhaving all this opportunity and
at one point I was like I hatethis so much.
I would go to bed and be like Idon't want to wake up.
I would go on vacation or like,go on home for break.
I'm like I don't.
I would get like anxiety, I'mlike I don't want to go back.
And eventually it was my momsaying like Jono, I love you, I
(09:47):
just don't like you right now,which is just brutal.
But my mom's Armenian andthat's just you know the way it
goes that I quit and I bought aticket to Europe with no plan
and I nearly almost bought aone-way ticket.
The only reason I came back ismy cousin was getting married.
But I traveled for about sevenmonths functionally homeless.
(10:11):
I slept on trains, I slept onstreets, I worked for housing
and food.
This was not an influencer trip.
This was not an impressive trip.
I lived out of a Nalgene that Iwould make oats and coffee in
and during this whole sevenmonth process I spent this is
including travel and everything$2,000.
(10:32):
Um right, so like.
This process was so good for mein the sense of one having a
burnout experience where my myideals were crushed and then
having to kind of like recollectmyself after that and being
like how do I move forward?
Now that I'm in like I've had aquarter life crisis.
I don't know who I am, I don'tknow what I want, and I think
(10:54):
something like that is reallygood for.
And I wouldn't say everyoneneeds to go through that
experience.
But having an experience whereyou see your ideals challenged
and your goals really justderailed, Wow, burnout is
something that we talk about somuch.
Ashley (11:11):
I mean, we talk about burnout so much in medicine, but
I don't think people understandthe results fully of burnout
sometimes and I spoke with aphysician a couple of episodes
ago, dr Todd Otten, andunfortunately for some of his
colleagues, the result ofburnout was physician suicide.
You know, these are big dealthings that we need to address,
(11:32):
and I'm really excited to hearyou know, to talk to you about
some of the ways that maybe wemitigate some of those feelings
of frustration, I think,clinically, how we can feel like
we're not just making adifference, maybe in clinic, but
making a difference for thosewho are coming after us, and I'm
really excited to talk to youabout that.
Before we jump into that,though, I want to go back to one
(11:54):
thing you said about how youknow you really were introduced
to the PA profession by seeingother PAs, and not just seeing
them, but also seeing yourselfin them.
Right, and that is theimportance of shadowing, and
that is the importance oftalking to so many different
clinicians in this field ofmedicine and why I encourage
(12:18):
students, if they think theywant to be a PA, do not just
shadow PAs, you need to also getexperience with medical doctors
.
You need to get experience withnurses, with NPs, with
occupational and physicaltherapists, speech language
pathologists, phlebotomists,ultrasound techs all of it
Because, like you said a lot oftimes, why we choose the
(12:38):
profession is because of theother people in that profession,
people we jive with, peoplethat just make sense to us.
So, thank you, thank you forbringing that up.
That was a really, really greatpoint.
Let's talk about a day in yourlife.
So you work in emergencymedicine and it sounds like this
is a multifactorial job for you.
You have a lot of roles.
Walk us through, maybe, whatthat looks like and what.
Maybe not just one day, maybe acouple of days in your life,
(13:00):
because it sounds like they'revery different.
Jono (13:02):
There's two roles I play now as an ERPA.
One is, like you said,quintessential, like in a city.
There's a couple hospitals thatI rotate through and my
schedule is set out a year inadvance.
We have like a template, so Ikind of know what's coming and I
either work early mornings orswing shifts.
The ER is what comes, Like Icould walk in and there's 20
(13:27):
patients waiting, or I walk inand there's nothing happening.
But I could go from seeing justcompletely benign, unplanned
primary care is probably thebest way to say it of just like
someone has a sore throat,someone has a rash, to someone
is coding.
And with the ER group that Iwork with, they encourage PAs to
do whatever they're comfortablewith.
(13:48):
And then you know we have acertain criteria of if it's this
concern.
Just bring the physician alongand say like, hey, by the way, I
have a 65 year old male who'spresenting with chest pain I
think he's having an MI.
Just putting this on your radar, and the physician will say
cool, thanks, and then we're allon the same page.
If it's something that I'mreally not comfortable with,
then I can grab the physicianand say, hey, you need to come
(14:11):
see this patient.
But so I manage everything inthose settings, from coughs to
sepsis and everything in between, and then procedure-wise do
whatever I'm comfortable with.
So that's including centralizedintubation, lumbar punctures,
hair stasis, thoracitis, stufflike that.
I still like go back and forthin my head of like do I really
like shift work?
I'm not really sure.
(14:31):
I kind of miss the like nine tofive life and the
predictability of it.
But I also, in a work setting Ienjoy coming into my day and
being like I don't know what'sgoing to happen.
So I do that.
And then I also contract and dothe best way to describe it as
rural emergency medicineautonomous coverage of hospitals
.
Critical access hospitals servepeople that are generally like
(14:53):
two hours outside of town, andso these are small hospitals
that generally have likeemergency department.
They have a couple like theirown small ward.
They generally don't have anICU.
I'll go and some of thoseshifts are super quiet and not a
ton happens.
And then other times I havepeople that are truly sick or
(15:13):
going through true traumascoming in.
I'm the person there and I'mthe person they're managing it,
so I'm doing it completely alone.
So there are two different kindof ways of approaching
emergency medicine and I enjoyboth of them.
They both have their differentsense of intensity.
They both have their like kindof safety nets that come with it
too.
Yeah, so there's no day in thelife there's just like show up
(15:35):
and it's time to go.
Ashley (15:36):
No, exactly In my brain.
That's what emergency medicineis right.
Do you think that working inthe critical access hospitals
helps when maybe you're feelingnot burnt out but just kind of
exhausted and tired in the big,larger main hospitals?
And vice versa Are the roles alittle bit different.
You think they complement eachother, kind of.
Jono (15:57):
Oh, totally yeah, I mean the critical access one pushes
me because I have to make thedecision, I have to deal with
these things.
But it's not these hospitals.
Generally they get federalfunding because they're serving
a population that is way outthere, and so the critical
access ones are much slower andso even if I have someone there,
you know, as long as they'restable, if I'm concerned about
(16:18):
something, I have the time to dothe workup with them and to
order the procedure or order theimaging, order the labs work
through the things.
Just, you know, really spendtime and sit with them and
reason with them.
Working in the rural autonomouscritical access hospital has
made me much more confidentmaking hard decisions for
patients, especially whenthey're in that gray area.
(16:39):
Working in the local setting,especially working with really
really great physicians, hasmade me much more refined at
this point, because I think whatI would initially do here is
like someone come in, I'm likeshotgun workup, give them
everything.
One of the doctors I work withsays something like the large
workup is the last safety net ofthe incompetent, and I'm like
oh ouch.
And so he's always challengingme to refine what I'm doing, to
(17:03):
really ask the question likewell, what are you looking for?
So now, here, when I work inthe autonomous setting and then
the rural setting, I think I'mmuch more focused on what I'm
doing because I know what I'mlooking for and I'm able to use
clinical reasoning and thehistory and the physical exam to
work through my differentialand, like you know, clinical
scores to work through mydifferential, instead of just
(17:24):
like order all the imaging,order all the labs, you know,
check, check, check, check,check, check, check.
Person's not going to die.
Ashley (17:30):
Great, get about like no , exactly, and I'm sure your
patients at the critical accesshospital are appreciative of
that, because I would imaginethat financial insecurity at
those locations is probably alittle bit more prevalent.
And God, healthcare isexpensive.
It's so expensive, you know,and if we can, if we can refine
(17:51):
that for them, um, then at leastyou know the weight of the
finances perhaps is a little bitlighter and all they have to
worry about is, well, the weightof being sick, um, which is
really, which is heavy enough?
Tell me about how you saidyou've been working for five
years as a PA.
How has your perspective ofmedicine, especially working in
(18:13):
these two locations?
How has it evolved over thosefive years working as a PA?
Jono (18:19):
I think the things that and you touched on this really
briefly earlier too is likethere's the culture of patient
care, but then there's also theculture of medicine, and the
culture of medicine is how weteach it, how we train people,
how we mentor people, how wetreat our staff, and I think
both of them are super broken.
I had, about, you know, sixmonths of normal medicine when I
graduated and then COVIDhappened, and I still don't
(18:44):
think we have fully reckonedwith how that has changed
everything culturally, medically, in some good ways, but exposed
the cancer or the infection andpeople are like, wow, that's
really bad, and then no one'sdealing with it, or people are
dealing with it, but they're notdealing with it in a fully
robust way or they're afraid todeal with it.
Ashley (19:05):
Pay for product.
That's what medicine is rightnow and that's not what I do.
That's not everybody'sexperience, you know, and I
would love for medicine to getback to well, I don't know,
helping people, it would be,it'd be really nice.
Jono (19:21):
Okay, let's pivot, let's pivot.
Ashley (19:24):
I have talked to at this point dozens of healthcare
providers, of clinicians, andall of them use this phrase at
some point or another drinkingfrom a fire hose.
When it comes to theireducation, you are the creator
of the PA Guide.
It's a comprehensive boardreview course tailored for PA
(19:45):
students with the goal offostering critical thinking and
clinical reasoning.
Tell me how.
Drinking from a fire hose, howdoes this concept play into what
you do and why you do it?
Jono (19:56):
So I'm going to address your question by first saying
it's like drinking from a firehose is a stupid cliche we use
because we are too lazy to tryto change things in medicine.
It is like drinking from a firehose because we're disorganized.
Yes, medicine is a lot ofcontent, but no one has tried to
make a system to make this notnecessarily easier, but simpler.
(20:17):
The example, ashley, I wouldgive you is if you and our
families, like we're going to gobackpacking, we're to go into
the mountains, I would not say,ashley, there's the wilderness.
Yes, it's like drinking from afire hose, you'll figure it out.
I would say, ashley, here's themap, here's where we're going,
(20:37):
here's where we're going to takebreaks, here's where we're
going to stay for the night,here's what we're eating, here
are all your tools and now let'sgo.
And so I would give you asystem and a pathway and I would
guide you through the process.
Right?
So why don't we do that inmedicine?
Because the other kind ofattitude and cliche that people
have in medicine is well, I'vesuffered through this.
(20:59):
Therefore, you should sufferthrough this, and I brought that
up to a friend and he's likethat is literally the cycle of
abuse.
So we are abusing and burningout our clinicians, our future
clinicians, in nursing school,medical school, pa school, any
school because we don't say, hey, let's do this differently.
So I don't believe in thedrinking from a fire hose
(21:23):
mentality.
So I made these duct tapejournals for every system
cardiology, neurology,pulmonology, whatever that were
hideous and homemade because Icouldn't find what I wanted.
But I ended up doing reallywell and I did really well to
the point that I was classpresident.
I ran a student-run clinic.
I was the one I was likesometimes in lectures, like I
(21:45):
felt like Hermione Granger, likejust like arm up, like I know
the answer.
We're in like endocrinehematology, these things that
are like really high reasoning,really challenging, interacting
with these attendings not justPAs but, like you know, the
hematologists of the hospital,and I'm like I get it, I know
where we're going, whereas allthese other students, or a lot
(22:05):
of other students in my course,were checked out because they're
overwhelmed.
So I ended up doing really welland actually I never studied at
night.
I took a day off every week,books closed, did not study.
I was able to do this reallywell.
It was a really positiveexperience for me.
So I created an outline and anotebook to help students filter
(22:31):
through the information.
A lot of people liked them.
A lot of people bought them.
I had students in Canada, theUS and the UK who were like
these are really cool, what agreat tool.
I don't know how to draw.
And so then my thought was like, well, I guess I'll illustrate
these.
That'll take me a little bit.
So then, two years later, Ihave illustrated a 600 page,
(22:54):
about a thousand illustrationboard review notebook, all based
around the pants.
Every section is laid out withpathology, patient diagnosis,
treatment, space for notes andan illustration to help you
comprehend and understand whatyou're learning.
That's not like it's not asuper pathological drawing, it's
just like a basic image of whatyou're learning.
That's not like, it's not asuper pathological drawing, it's
just like a basic image of whatyou're going to see.
(23:16):
And then one of my friends,who's not medical he works in
business and marketing he's like, hey, I love this, let's make a
course.
And so we've partnered togetherand we created PA guide, which
includes this notebook, which isdesigned to help students know
what's coming.
It is the map.
It helps them filter throughwhat they're doing.
It helps them stay productive,hopefully get excited about what
(23:38):
they're learning.
And then we've developed acourse and the course is
designed around the pants.
We have a didactic section.
We've designed a clinicalpharmacology section to go with
the didactic section we'redesigning and a rotation exam.
Then we also created an AIchatbot to go with it as well
and the chatbot is basicallylike an attending and the idea
(23:58):
with that is then students cankind of go through the process
when you're learning.
A subject of what I would adviseany student to do for this
firehose experience is get ournotebook, get our course, go
through our overview, take noteson it, go through the course,
take notes on it.
We have quizzes.
Do some quizzes, take notes onthat, practice with the bot on
(24:19):
that subject, take notes on it,then sit and lecture.
And if you go through that fourdifferent times, different
directions, take active notes onit, get your mind around the
subject and then sit in thelecture on that subject, then
you're going to be the studentthat's engaged, locked in, knows
what's coming, knows the boardcontent, knows what you need to
know for the test already, andthen you're able to kind of pick
(24:45):
out like okay, what's a testpearl and then what's a clinical
pearl of like.
I need to remember this andjust take a note on this, so I
remember this when I'mpracticing.
And so I want to make people inmedicine thoughtful and I want
to help young students and busyparents become really good at
clinical reasoning fast andquickly so that they can get out
there not burnt out.
(25:05):
And I want to, like we talkedabout, like the world of
medicine, like where it ispatient care.
And then there's the medicalculture.
I'm not changing Medicare andMedicaid, I'm not touching
insurance, but this culture, theculture of education.
I want to see that change.
I want to see that changeacross the board.
I want to be done with thecliches.
Like you know, nurses eat theiryoung or you'll figure it out,
(25:26):
or it's like dream from afirehouse.
I want people to actuallymentor each other and care about
each other and train the nextgeneration, because I've seen
the failure of that.
I've experienced the failure ofthat.
That's what PA Guide is.
Ashley (25:39):
It goes back to, I think , originally a ways back when
you thought perhaps educationand teaching was what was going
to be in your future.
Meeting students where they areis what you said, and this
whole platform does exactly thatBecause, as we know, there are
some people who are visuallearners, auditory learners,
people who learn more by writing, people who learn more by
(26:01):
reading right.
You are able, with yourplatform, you're able to meet
that student where they are andthen give them a map, like
you've said, and I think thatthat guidance is so sought after
right now.
And, and you know, many, manyPA programs do offer incredible
support.
I went to the University ofFlorida PA school and I can tell
(26:23):
you I felt very, very supported.
But when it comes to somebodysay, ashley, do this next,
ashley, consider learning thisway instead of that way, there
really wasn't.
It was a lot of well.
You kind of figure it out asyou go, just like you said, and
I've heard so many people saythat.
So this resource for people isincredible.
(26:44):
Have you had good feedback?
What's been the feedback onthis?
Jono (26:48):
One professor had a student that she said I was
meeting with the student everyweek.
He was really struggling.
He would be at the school fromseven in the morning till nine
at night doing all these things.
And then the student came andbrought this notebook and said
hey, professor, this is a gamechanger.
And she's like I knew it was agame changer Cause I never met
(27:08):
with him again.
Ashley (27:09):
Wow, wow.
Jono (27:10):
Yeah, um, so that way I'd like she.
She told me that I was like oh,yes, and then do you know, eric
Fogg?
Ashley (27:18):
Yes, eric, he was on the podcast not too long ago.
Jono (27:20):
He's fantastic, so him and I him and I become buddies
because what I'm doing spans thegap of what he's doing and what
pre-PA coaches do is a lot ofpeople are helping people get
into school.
Eric is incredible at helpingpeople who are just really,
really struggling and I'm withPA guy trying to stand in the
gap.
He's been really encouraging, Ithink, from students it's been
(27:41):
really positive People who'vegotten their hands on it and
committed to it.
Everyone learns differently butthere's so much learning that
students are doing right now oflike you know, PA school,
medical school used to be liketextbook lecture.
That's it.
Now it's textbook lecture, TikTOK, Instagram, YouTube,
podcasts, like all thesedifferent things that people are
trying to filter through of alltheir learning styles.
(28:03):
And if you just had somethingwhere you're like, oh yeah, what
was that thing on lactoseintolerance?
And even the physical processof like not scrolling through a
document on your computer and anExcel chart or like what, like
it is literally like what was mything on toxin?
Oh yeah, OK, let's annotatethat.
Like the physical process ofhearing that or reviewing that
(28:27):
thing and being like, oh yeah,this is it OK, physically pull
out my book and like, mentallyengage with this.
It gave me a lot of controlover my education and I want to
give that to students.
Ashley (28:38):
It sounds like you have the perfect resource for those
students that are currently inschool going what?
What do I do?
Where am I going from here?
You know, I think it's great,jono.
Where can students find thisbook?
Where can students find yourplatform?
How do we?
How do we?
How do we get our hands on this?
Now, before we hear our qualityquestion and before we hear
where we can get our hands onthis incredible resource, keep
(29:00):
in mind that there's moreinterview prep, such as mock
interviews and personalstatement review over on
shadowmenextcom.
There, you'll find amazingresources to help you as you
prepare to answer your ownquality questions.
Now, jono and I did not discussa quality question, but his
work with the PA Guidehighlights the importance of
creating structured, accessibleresources to help students
(29:24):
navigate the complexities ofmedical education.
By addressing these gaps, he'spaving the way for a more
thoughtful and effectiveapproach to training the next
generation of healthcareprofessionals.
So the quality question is thiswhat aspects of healthcare
education or training do youthink are currently missing?
To answer this question, thinkabout the challenges you've
(29:47):
faced in your own educationmaybe something you've heard
from an older student education,maybe something you've heard
from an older student and whereyou feel support or structure
might be lacking.
Consider how you might addressthese gaps, either through new
resources, mentorship orimproved systems that could
better prepare future healthcareprofessionals.
Jono (30:07):
The website is pa-guycom.
We'll eventually probably spend, however, thousands of dollars
to get rid of that dash, butright now it's PA dash guycom.
We have a bunch of freeresources on it for students
that are starting off.
I am on Instagram, tiktok,linkedin, youtube, x.
Ashley (30:26):
Jono, thank you so much.
I so appreciate all of the timethat you've spent not just
developing your platform, butalso chatting with us about it
and telling your story.
It's just chock full of goldand truth and honesty and it
shows people that there is notone way to do things and just
because your way is a little bitdifferent than somebody else's,
it absolutely does not make itwrong.
It makes it very right for you.
(30:46):
So thanks so much for sharingthat.
Jono (30:48):
Oh, you're so welcome.
This was a pleasure.
Ashley (30:51):
Thank you so very much for listening to this episode of
Shadow Me Next.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday, as always.
If you have any questions, letme know on Facebook or Instagram
Access.
You want stories you need?
You're always invited to ShadowMe Next.
Hello and welcome to Shadow Me Next, a podcast where
I take you into and behind thescenes of the medical world to
provide you with a deeperunderstanding of the human side
of medicine.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor and thecreator of Shadow Me Next.
It is my pleasure to introduceyou to incredible members of the
(00:22):
healthcare field and uncovertheir unique stories, the joys
and challenges they face andwhat drives them in their
careers.
It's access you want andstories you need, whether you're
a pre-health student or simplycurious about the healthcare
field.
I invite you to join me as wetake a conversational and
personal look into the lives andminds of leaders in medicine.
(00:44):
I don't want you to miss asingle one of these
conversations, so make sure thatyou subscribe to this podcast,
which will automatically notifyyou when new episodes are
dropped, and follow us onInstagram and Facebook at Shadow
Me Next, where we will reviewhighlights from this
conversation and where I'll giveyou sneak previews of our
upcoming guests.
(01:04):
Today, I'm joined by Jono Lipman, a physician assistant with an
amazing journey into medicine.
After starting as acommunications major in college
and working as a wildernessguide, jono eventually
discovered his passion forhealthcare through wilderness
first responder training.
Now he practices in emergencymedicine and rural critical
(01:25):
access hospitals, where his roleis both dynamic and autonomous.
In addition to his clinicalwork, jono is the creator of the
PA Guide, a resource that helpsPA students manage the
overwhelming content of theircoursework and develop critical
thinking skills.
His goal is to transformmedical education by offering a
(01:48):
more structured and supportiveapproach, empowering students to
avoid burnout and succeed intheir careers.
In this episode, jono shareshis unique path, lessons from
his experiences and how he'shelping shape the future of
medical education.
Please keep in mind that thecontent of this podcast is
intended for informational andentertainment purposes only and
(02:11):
should not be considered asprofessional medical advice.
The views and opinionsexpressed in this podcast are
those of the host and guests anddo not necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany other agency, organization,
employer or company.
This is Shadow Me Next withJono Lipman.
Hey Jono, thank you so much forjoining me today on Shadow Me
(02:33):
Next.
I am thrilled to talk to youabout not just your career and
your job, but what you havecreated.
Thank you for joining us thismorning.
Jono (02:43):
You're welcome.
I think this would be fun.
Let's get into it.
Ashley (02:46):
Let's get into it.
Awesome, Okay.
So let's start at the beginning.
What drew you to medicine andbeing a PA in the first place?
Was it a challenge for you tokind of arrive at at where
you're at right now?
Jono (02:59):
Oh, totally.
So I am, um, what I woulddescribe as when when I was in
PA school, the weakest candidatein my program and a career
change student.
So I was a communication major.
I avoided science my entirecollege undergrad experience
because I hated it so much inhigh school and put it off to my
(03:21):
last semester of my senior yearof college.
And then at one point incollege I was like, oh, maybe I
should go into medicine, like,and I don't know where the stock
initially came from.
But then I was like, nah, I'mwatching too much scrubs.
Like that was that was it.
And then I talked myself out ofit.
Um, I didn't know what a PA was.
(03:41):
Then this was like, uh, Igraduated 2009 from college.
I didn't know what a PA was.
Then this was like I graduated2009 from college.
So I worked for a decade or sodoing like I was like an outdoor
adventure director and abackpacking guide and I work
with students and do a lot oflike programmatic stuff and
really, really enjoyed it.
Thinking that at some point Iwas like, oh, maybe I'll become
(04:06):
a teacher because I loveteaching, I love just engaging
students where they're at andchallenging them.
So I was like, oh, maybe I'llbecome a teacher.
So looked into the process ofdoing that and my thought was,
oh, I'll become a teacher, thenover the summer I'll run my own
high adventure program,backpacking program or something
like that.
Like, that seems like a cool,seems like a cool life, um.
(04:28):
So I did a to open up moreopportunity in the wilderness
side of things, did a wildernessfirst responder course, which
is a very basic, uh, kind oflike an EMT course for the
wilderness, um, and it was aweek long camping out doing um,
basically like didactic coursesfor what we had to learn.
And I walked away from that.
(04:49):
I'm like Whoa, that was supercool.
I really liked that.
I want to do that, but I hatescience, so what do I do?
Um, and so I just kind of likeI was like, well, I guess I'll
get my EMT license, I'll do thatnext.
And so I did that all the whilestill doing this outdoor stuff,
(05:09):
and just had this thought inthe back of my head like maybe
I'll do this, maybe I'll do this.
Like my mom was a nurse.
She went back to school when Iwas in kindergarten, so I saw
someone change their careerbefore and I saw how much work.
It was so.
So I had this interest.
I had this thing going in myhead.
I was like, oh, I'll, I'll dothis, um, but then I kept
(05:31):
talking myself out of it, Um,and then I had like two, two
kind of events that are a coupleof events that pushed me in
their direction.
One is I got married and my wifewas working at Starbucks and I
was working full time and shewas making more money than me
and I was like, well, I've gotto figure out something to make
more money.
And then I was working thesesituations where I'm telling
(05:53):
students all the time like, hey,step outside your comfort zone,
step outside your comfort zone,push yourself.
You know you could do it.
And I was like, well, what'soutside my comfort zone?
And my first thought was takinga science class.
I was like, fine, and my firstthought was taking a science
class.
I was like, ugh, fine.
And then my wife eventually waslike you just need to shut up,
stop talking about this and signup for a class.
And so then, being 27, signingup for a community college bio
(06:15):
101 class, where I did notremember what the mitochondria
was, I did not remember whatosmosis was, I didn't remember
any of this stuff and I didchemistry.
I'm like I hated that and thengot into anatomy and physiology
and just loved it and all thattime I was thinking I'll be a
nurse, like that just makessense.
My mom was a nurse, I'll be anurse.
My wife was thinking she'd be anurse and so we're kind of
(06:37):
headed in that direction.
I started working with PAs andI really liked the PAs I was
working with.
We seemed to get along.
I should keep going down thatroute.
And then at some point Irealized I qualified for PA
schools and ended up applying to22 of them.
Then I got in and then gotthrough it and we can talk about
(07:01):
that experience.
But I've been a PA for overfive years now and here we are.
Ashley (07:06):
This is the number one question that I get from pre-PA
and actually just pre-healthstudents generally speaking is
Ashley, do you think I'm behind?
These are usually juniors orseniors in college who have
almost all of the prerequisitesalready needed to go to the
graduate program of their choice, whether it's PA school,
(07:28):
medical school, et cetera.
And I'm just so grateful and soinspired by your story because
you didn't take a science classin college until the last
semester and then after that,you were unsure and you were
that you still you were unsureand you were trying, just trying
the things that you wereinterested in, right.
(07:48):
And I think that there is thispressure to rush through and get
in and get accepted so quicklyand and my, I'd love to know
what your thoughts are on thisCause I'm sure you counsel
students on this too, but lifehappens in between those periods
, right, and the things that youlearned working as a wilderness
(08:10):
first responder or an EMTlikely shaped who you are now as
a PA.
What do you tell those students?
Jono (08:18):
I'll answer in two ways.
One, I directly tell a lot ofstudents because they say what
do I need to do for my gap year?
And my response is you need toput the term gap year to death
and you need to go live yourlife.
Because the challenge now thatPA students are facing is not
that they're 40 years old andthey've been a paramedic and now
they're like how do I go backto school?
They're 23, 24, and they'regoing up against every other 23,
(08:41):
24 year old who has basicallypre-med qualifications.
That's not applying to PAschool.
So how do you set yourselfapart from that?
The only way to set yourselfapart from that is have actual
life experience.
Actual life experience doesn'tnecessarily come from patient
care, experience for a year as atech or an MA or something.
It is actually going out andbuilding a story, because that's
(09:04):
what your personal statement is, that's what your interview is,
is telling your story so youcan stick out.
What I ended up experiencingearly on in my career, like
post-grad life, was massiveburnout, to the point that I had
this very idealistic job thateveryone who I went to undergrad
with was like oh cool, you'redoing the thing, congratulations
(09:26):
, what an amazing job, everyoneyou know growing my, you know
growing my network, you knowhaving all this opportunity and
at one point I was like I hatethis so much.
I would go to bed and be like Idon't want to wake up.
I would go on vacation or like,go on home for break.
I'm like I don't.
I would get like anxiety, I'mlike I don't want to go back.
And eventually it was my momsaying like Jono, I love you, I
(09:47):
just don't like you right now,which is just brutal.
But my mom's Armenian andthat's just you know the way it
goes that I quit and I bought aticket to Europe with no plan
and I nearly almost bought aone-way ticket.
The only reason I came back ismy cousin was getting married.
But I traveled for about sevenmonths functionally homeless.
(10:11):
I slept on trains, I slept onstreets, I worked for housing
and food.
This was not an influencer trip.
This was not an impressive trip.
I lived out of a Nalgene that Iwould make oats and coffee in
and during this whole sevenmonth process I spent this is
including travel and everything$2,000.
(10:32):
Um right, so like.
This process was so good for mein the sense of one having a
burnout experience where my myideals were crushed and then
having to kind of like recollectmyself after that and being
like how do I move forward?
Now that I'm in like I've had aquarter life crisis.
I don't know who I am, I don'tknow what I want, and I think
(10:54):
something like that is reallygood for.
And I wouldn't say everyoneneeds to go through that
experience.
But having an experience whereyou see your ideals challenged
and your goals really justderailed, Wow, burnout is
something that we talk about somuch.
Ashley (11:11):
I mean, we talk about burnout so much in medicine, but
I don't think people understandthe results fully of burnout
sometimes and I spoke with aphysician a couple of episodes
ago, dr Todd Otten, andunfortunately for some of his
colleagues, the result ofburnout was physician suicide.
You know, these are big dealthings that we need to address,
(11:32):
and I'm really excited to hearyou know, to talk to you about
some of the ways that maybe wemitigate some of those feelings
of frustration, I think,clinically, how we can feel like
we're not just making adifference, maybe in clinic, but
making a difference for thosewho are coming after us, and I'm
really excited to talk to youabout that.
Before we jump into that,though, I want to go back to one
(11:54):
thing you said about how youknow you really were introduced
to the PA profession by seeingother PAs, and not just seeing
them, but also seeing yourselfin them.
Right, and that is theimportance of shadowing, and
that is the importance oftalking to so many different
clinicians in this field ofmedicine and why I encourage
(12:18):
students, if they think theywant to be a PA, do not just
shadow PAs, you need to also getexperience with medical doctors
.
You need to get experience withnurses, with NPs, with
occupational and physicaltherapists, speech language
pathologists, phlebotomists,ultrasound techs all of it
Because, like you said a lot oftimes, why we choose the
(12:38):
profession is because of theother people in that profession,
people we jive with, peoplethat just make sense to us.
So, thank you, thank you forbringing that up.
That was a really, really greatpoint.
Let's talk about a day in yourlife.
So you work in emergencymedicine and it sounds like this
is a multifactorial job for you.
You have a lot of roles.
Walk us through, maybe, whatthat looks like and what.
Maybe not just one day, maybe acouple of days in your life,
(13:00):
because it sounds like they'revery different.
Jono (13:02):
There's two roles I play now as an ERPA.
One is, like you said,quintessential, like in a city.
There's a couple hospitals thatI rotate through and my
schedule is set out a year inadvance.
We have like a template, so Ikind of know what's coming and I
either work early mornings orswing shifts.
The ER is what comes, Like Icould walk in and there's 20
(13:27):
patients waiting, or I walk inand there's nothing happening.
But I could go from seeing justcompletely benign, unplanned
primary care is probably thebest way to say it of just like
someone has a sore throat,someone has a rash, to someone
is coding.
And with the ER group that Iwork with, they encourage PAs to
do whatever they're comfortablewith.
(13:48):
And then you know we have acertain criteria of if it's this
concern.
Just bring the physician alongand say like, hey, by the way, I
have a 65 year old male who'spresenting with chest pain I
think he's having an MI.
Just putting this on your radar, and the physician will say
cool, thanks, and then we're allon the same page.
If it's something that I'mreally not comfortable with,
then I can grab the physicianand say, hey, you need to come
(14:11):
see this patient.
But so I manage everything inthose settings, from coughs to
sepsis and everything in between, and then procedure-wise do
whatever I'm comfortable with.
So that's including centralizedintubation, lumbar punctures,
hair stasis, thoracitis, stufflike that.
I still like go back and forthin my head of like do I really
like shift work?
I'm not really sure.
(14:31):
I kind of miss the like nine tofive life and the
predictability of it.
But I also, in a work setting Ienjoy coming into my day and
being like I don't know what'sgoing to happen.
So I do that.
And then I also contract and dothe best way to describe it as
rural emergency medicineautonomous coverage of hospitals
.
Critical access hospitals servepeople that are generally like
(14:53):
two hours outside of town, andso these are small hospitals
that generally have likeemergency department.
They have a couple like theirown small ward.
They generally don't have anICU.
I'll go and some of thoseshifts are super quiet and not a
ton happens.
And then other times I havepeople that are truly sick or
(15:13):
going through true traumascoming in.
I'm the person there and I'mthe person they're managing it,
so I'm doing it completely alone.
So there are two different kindof ways of approaching
emergency medicine and I enjoyboth of them.
They both have their differentsense of intensity.
They both have their like kindof safety nets that come with it
too.
Yeah, so there's no day in thelife there's just like show up
(15:35):
and it's time to go.
Ashley (15:36):
No, exactly In my brain.
That's what emergency medicineis right.
Do you think that working inthe critical access hospitals
helps when maybe you're feelingnot burnt out but just kind of
exhausted and tired in the big,larger main hospitals?
And vice versa Are the roles alittle bit different.
You think they complement eachother, kind of.
Jono (15:57):
Oh, totally yeah, I mean the critical access one pushes
me because I have to make thedecision, I have to deal with
these things.
But it's not these hospitals.
Generally they get federalfunding because they're serving
a population that is way outthere, and so the critical
access ones are much slower andso even if I have someone there,
you know, as long as they'restable, if I'm concerned about
(16:18):
something, I have the time to dothe workup with them and to
order the procedure or order theimaging, order the labs work
through the things.
Just, you know, really spendtime and sit with them and
reason with them.
Working in the rural autonomouscritical access hospital has
made me much more confidentmaking hard decisions for
patients, especially whenthey're in that gray area.
(16:39):
Working in the local setting,especially working with really
really great physicians, hasmade me much more refined at
this point, because I think whatI would initially do here is
like someone come in, I'm likeshotgun workup, give them
everything.
One of the doctors I work withsays something like the large
workup is the last safety net ofthe incompetent, and I'm like
oh ouch.
And so he's always challengingme to refine what I'm doing, to
(17:03):
really ask the question likewell, what are you looking for?
So now, here, when I work inthe autonomous setting and then
the rural setting, I think I'mmuch more focused on what I'm
doing because I know what I'mlooking for and I'm able to use
clinical reasoning and thehistory and the physical exam to
work through my differentialand, like you know, clinical
scores to work through mydifferential, instead of just
(17:24):
like order all the imaging,order all the labs, you know,
check, check, check, check,check, check, check.
Person's not going to die.
Ashley (17:30):
Great, get about like no , exactly, and I'm sure your
patients at the critical accesshospital are appreciative of
that, because I would imaginethat financial insecurity at
those locations is probably alittle bit more prevalent.
And God, healthcare isexpensive.
It's so expensive, you know,and if we can, if we can refine
(17:51):
that for them, um, then at leastyou know the weight of the
finances perhaps is a little bitlighter and all they have to
worry about is, well, the weightof being sick, um, which is
really, which is heavy enough?
Tell me about how you saidyou've been working for five
years as a PA.
How has your perspective ofmedicine, especially working in
(18:13):
these two locations?
How has it evolved over thosefive years working as a PA?
Jono (18:19):
I think the things that and you touched on this really
briefly earlier too is likethere's the culture of patient
care, but then there's also theculture of medicine, and the
culture of medicine is how weteach it, how we train people,
how we mentor people, how wetreat our staff, and I think
both of them are super broken.
I had, about, you know, sixmonths of normal medicine when I
graduated and then COVIDhappened, and I still don't
(18:44):
think we have fully reckonedwith how that has changed
everything culturally, medically, in some good ways, but exposed
the cancer or the infection andpeople are like, wow, that's
really bad, and then no one'sdealing with it, or people are
dealing with it, but they're notdealing with it in a fully
robust way or they're afraid todeal with it.
Ashley (19:05):
Pay for product.
That's what medicine is rightnow and that's not what I do.
That's not everybody'sexperience, you know, and I
would love for medicine to getback to well, I don't know,
helping people, it would be,it'd be really nice.
Jono (19:21):
Okay, let's pivot, let's pivot.
Ashley (19:24):
I have talked to at this point dozens of healthcare
providers, of clinicians, andall of them use this phrase at
some point or another drinkingfrom a fire hose.
When it comes to theireducation, you are the creator
of the PA Guide.
It's a comprehensive boardreview course tailored for PA
(19:45):
students with the goal offostering critical thinking and
clinical reasoning.
Tell me how.
Drinking from a fire hose, howdoes this concept play into what
you do and why you do it?
Jono (19:56):
So I'm going to address your question by first saying
it's like drinking from a firehose is a stupid cliche we use
because we are too lazy to tryto change things in medicine.
It is like drinking from a firehose because we're disorganized.
Yes, medicine is a lot ofcontent, but no one has tried to
make a system to make this notnecessarily easier, but simpler.
(20:17):
The example, ashley, I wouldgive you is if you and our
families, like we're going to gobackpacking, we're to go into
the mountains, I would not say,ashley, there's the wilderness.
Yes, it's like drinking from afire hose, you'll figure it out.
I would say, ashley, here's themap, here's where we're going,
(20:37):
here's where we're going to takebreaks, here's where we're
going to stay for the night,here's what we're eating, here
are all your tools and now let'sgo.
And so I would give you asystem and a pathway and I would
guide you through the process.
Right?
So why don't we do that inmedicine?
Because the other kind ofattitude and cliche that people
have in medicine is well, I'vesuffered through this.
(20:59):
Therefore, you should sufferthrough this, and I brought that
up to a friend and he's likethat is literally the cycle of
abuse.
So we are abusing and burningout our clinicians, our future
clinicians, in nursing school,medical school, pa school, any
school because we don't say, hey, let's do this differently.
So I don't believe in thedrinking from a fire hose
(21:23):
mentality.
So I made these duct tapejournals for every system
cardiology, neurology,pulmonology, whatever that were
hideous and homemade because Icouldn't find what I wanted.
But I ended up doing reallywell and I did really well to
the point that I was classpresident.
I ran a student-run clinic.
I was the one I was likesometimes in lectures, like I
(21:45):
felt like Hermione Granger, likejust like arm up, like I know
the answer.
We're in like endocrinehematology, these things that
are like really high reasoning,really challenging, interacting
with these attendings not justPAs but, like you know, the
hematologists of the hospital,and I'm like I get it, I know
where we're going, whereas allthese other students, or a lot
(22:05):
of other students in my course,were checked out because they're
overwhelmed.
So I ended up doing really welland actually I never studied at
night.
I took a day off every week,books closed, did not study.
I was able to do this reallywell.
It was a really positiveexperience for me.
So I created an outline and anotebook to help students filter
(22:31):
through the information.
A lot of people liked them.
A lot of people bought them.
I had students in Canada, theUS and the UK who were like
these are really cool, what agreat tool.
I don't know how to draw.
And so then my thought was like, well, I guess I'll illustrate
these.
That'll take me a little bit.
So then, two years later, Ihave illustrated a 600 page,
(22:54):
about a thousand illustrationboard review notebook, all based
around the pants.
Every section is laid out withpathology, patient diagnosis,
treatment, space for notes andan illustration to help you
comprehend and understand whatyou're learning.
That's not like it's not asuper pathological drawing, it's
just like a basic image of whatyou're learning.
That's not like, it's not asuper pathological drawing, it's
just like a basic image of whatyou're going to see.
(23:16):
And then one of my friends,who's not medical he works in
business and marketing he's like, hey, I love this, let's make a
course.
And so we've partnered togetherand we created PA guide, which
includes this notebook, which isdesigned to help students know
what's coming.
It is the map.
It helps them filter throughwhat they're doing.
It helps them stay productive,hopefully get excited about what
(23:38):
they're learning.
And then we've developed acourse and the course is
designed around the pants.
We have a didactic section.
We've designed a clinicalpharmacology section to go with
the didactic section we'redesigning and a rotation exam.
Then we also created an AIchatbot to go with it as well
and the chatbot is basicallylike an attending and the idea
(23:58):
with that is then students cankind of go through the process
when you're learning.
A subject of what I would adviseany student to do for this
firehose experience is get ournotebook, get our course, go
through our overview, take noteson it, go through the course,
take notes on it.
We have quizzes.
Do some quizzes, take notes onthat, practice with the bot on
(24:19):
that subject, take notes on it,then sit and lecture.
And if you go through that fourdifferent times, different
directions, take active notes onit, get your mind around the
subject and then sit in thelecture on that subject, then
you're going to be the studentthat's engaged, locked in, knows
what's coming, knows the boardcontent, knows what you need to
know for the test already, andthen you're able to kind of pick
(24:45):
out like okay, what's a testpearl and then what's a clinical
pearl of like.
I need to remember this andjust take a note on this, so I
remember this when I'mpracticing.
And so I want to make people inmedicine thoughtful and I want
to help young students and busyparents become really good at
clinical reasoning fast andquickly so that they can get out
there not burnt out.
(25:05):
And I want to, like we talkedabout, like the world of
medicine, like where it ispatient care.
And then there's the medicalculture.
I'm not changing Medicare andMedicaid, I'm not touching
insurance, but this culture, theculture of education.
I want to see that change.
I want to see that changeacross the board.
I want to be done with thecliches.
Like you know, nurses eat theiryoung or you'll figure it out,
(25:26):
or it's like dream from afirehouse.
I want people to actuallymentor each other and care about
each other and train the nextgeneration, because I've seen
the failure of that.
I've experienced the failure ofthat.
That's what PA Guide is.
Ashley (25:39):
It goes back to, I think , originally a ways back when
you thought perhaps educationand teaching was what was going
to be in your future.
Meeting students where they areis what you said, and this
whole platform does exactly thatBecause, as we know, there are
some people who are visuallearners, auditory learners,
people who learn more by writing, people who learn more by
(26:01):
reading right.
You are able, with yourplatform, you're able to meet
that student where they are andthen give them a map, like
you've said, and I think thatthat guidance is so sought after
right now.
And, and you know, many, manyPA programs do offer incredible
support.
I went to the University ofFlorida PA school and I can tell
(26:23):
you I felt very, very supported.
But when it comes to somebodysay, ashley, do this next,
ashley, consider learning thisway instead of that way, there
really wasn't.
It was a lot of well.
You kind of figure it out asyou go, just like you said, and
I've heard so many people saythat.
So this resource for people isincredible.
(26:44):
Have you had good feedback?
What's been the feedback onthis?
Jono (26:48):
One professor had a student that she said I was
meeting with the student everyweek.
He was really struggling.
He would be at the school fromseven in the morning till nine
at night doing all these things.
And then the student came andbrought this notebook and said
hey, professor, this is a gamechanger.
And she's like I knew it was agame changer Cause I never met
(27:08):
with him again.
Ashley (27:09):
Wow, wow.
Jono (27:10):
Yeah, um, so that way I'd like she.
She told me that I was like oh,yes, and then do you know, eric
Fogg?
Ashley (27:18):
Yes, eric, he was on the podcast not too long ago.
Jono (27:20):
He's fantastic, so him and I him and I become buddies
because what I'm doing spans thegap of what he's doing and what
pre-PA coaches do is a lot ofpeople are helping people get
into school.
Eric is incredible at helpingpeople who are just really,
really struggling and I'm withPA guy trying to stand in the
gap.
He's been really encouraging, Ithink, from students it's been
(27:41):
really positive People who'vegotten their hands on it and
committed to it.
Everyone learns differently butthere's so much learning that
students are doing right now oflike you know, PA school,
medical school used to be liketextbook lecture.
That's it.
Now it's textbook lecture, TikTOK, Instagram, YouTube,
podcasts, like all thesedifferent things that people are
trying to filter through of alltheir learning styles.
(28:03):
And if you just had somethingwhere you're like, oh yeah, what
was that thing on lactoseintolerance?
And even the physical processof like not scrolling through a
document on your computer and anExcel chart or like what, like
it is literally like what was mything on toxin?
Oh yeah, OK, let's annotatethat.
Like the physical process ofhearing that or reviewing that
(28:27):
thing and being like, oh yeah,this is it OK, physically pull
out my book and like, mentallyengage with this.
It gave me a lot of controlover my education and I want to
give that to students.
Ashley (28:38):
It sounds like you have the perfect resource for those
students that are currently inschool going what?
What do I do?
Where am I going from here?
You know, I think it's great,jono.
Where can students find thisbook?
Where can students find yourplatform?
How do we?
How do we?
How do we get our hands on this?
Now, before we hear our qualityquestion and before we hear
where we can get our hands onthis incredible resource, keep
(29:00):
in mind that there's moreinterview prep, such as mock
interviews and personalstatement review over on
shadowmenextcom.
There, you'll find amazingresources to help you as you
prepare to answer your ownquality questions.
Now, jono and I did not discussa quality question, but his
work with the PA Guidehighlights the importance of
creating structured, accessibleresources to help students
(29:24):
navigate the complexities ofmedical education.
By addressing these gaps, he'spaving the way for a more
thoughtful and effectiveapproach to training the next
generation of healthcareprofessionals.
So the quality question is thiswhat aspects of healthcare
education or training do youthink are currently missing?
To answer this question, thinkabout the challenges you've
(29:47):
faced in your own educationmaybe something you've heard
from an older student education,maybe something you've heard
from an older student and whereyou feel support or structure
might be lacking.
Consider how you might addressthese gaps, either through new
resources, mentorship orimproved systems that could
better prepare future healthcareprofessionals.
Jono (30:07):
The website is pa-guycom.
We'll eventually probably spend, however, thousands of dollars
to get rid of that dash, butright now it's PA dash guycom.
We have a bunch of freeresources on it for students
that are starting off.
I am on Instagram, tiktok,linkedin, youtube, x.
Ashley (30:26):
Jono, thank you so much.
I so appreciate all of the timethat you've spent not just
developing your platform, butalso chatting with us about it
and telling your story.
It's just chock full of goldand truth and honesty and it
shows people that there is notone way to do things and just
because your way is a little bitdifferent than somebody else's,
it absolutely does not make itwrong.
It makes it very right for you.
(30:46):
So thanks so much for sharingthat.
Jono (30:48):
Oh, you're so welcome.
This was a pleasure.
Ashley (30:51):
Thank you so very much for listening to this episode of
Shadow Me Next.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday, as always.
If you have any questions, letme know on Facebook or Instagram
Access.
You want stories you need?
You're always invited to ShadowMe Next.
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