What happens when medicine loses its humanity? Dr. Kipp's powerful new book "Heartbeats and Handshakes" offers a rare and intimate look at what it truly means to be a physician - from the terrifying first code blue as a medical student to the wisdom gained through 30 years of clinical practice.
Dr. Kipp takes us behind closed doors to reveal the profound challenge doctors face: maintaining genuine compassion while rapidly moving between patients in crisis. His journey from conventional medicine to questioning the system began when his father received an Alzheimer's diagnosis from a physician who typed notes without making eye contact. "We're like - you don't even care. We're just the Alzheimer's patient in room four," he recalls with still-palpable disappointment.
Through rich storytelling that spans decades, Dr. Kipp tracks his evolution through multiple specialties - family medicine, radiology, interventional procedures, pain management, and regenerative medicine. He witnessed healthcare's technological revolution firsthand, from the early days of CT scanning to today's instantaneous imaging. Yet despite these advances, he worries about medicine's future: "AI could replace doctors so fast. It can't replace the proceduralist, but it could replace the diagnostician."
What can never be replaced, Dr. Kipp argues, is the healing power of human connection - the handshake, the reassuring touch, the shared vulnerability between provider and patient. "When you write, you don't know if anyone's going to get what you're trying to say," he reflects on his book's impact. But when his own son identified exactly the message he hoped to convey, Dr. Kipp knew he'd succeeded in capturing medicine's essence: "That's what's so exciting - communicating these hard concepts is best done by storytelling."
Ready to rediscover the heart of healthcare? Listen now and remember why medicine will always need the human touch that no algorithm can replicate.
Check out his book: Heartbeats and Handshakes
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Shadow Me Next, a podcast where
I take you into and behind thescenes of the medical world to
provide you with a deeperunderstanding of the human side
of medicine.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor and thecreator of Shadow Me Next.
It is my pleasure to introduceyou to incredible members of the
(00:22):
healthcare field and uncovertheir unique stories, the joys
and challenges they face andwhat drives them in their
careers.
It's access you want andstories you need, whether you're
a pre-health student or simplycurious about the healthcare
field.
I invite you to join me as wetake a conversational and
personal look into the lives andminds of leaders in medicine.
(00:45):
I don't want you to miss asingle one of these
conversations, so make sure thatyou subscribe to this podcast,
which will automatically notifyyou when new episodes are
dropped, and follow us onInstagram and Facebook at shadow
me next, where we will reviewhighlights from this
conversation and where I'll giveyou sneak previews of our
(02:19):
upcoming guests.
Thank you, guests.
And do not necessarily reflectthe official policy or position
of any other agency,organization, employer or
company.
Dr Kipp, thank you so much forjoining us on Shadow Me Next.
We've already spent some timetalking and I am just so
impressed not just with yourtrack record in medicine, but in
(02:41):
the ways that you are stillcontinuing to give back to
medicine as a whole.
So thank you for doing that andthank you so much for joining
us on the show today.
Dr. Kipp (02:50):
Happy to be here.
Ashley (02:52):
So, first and foremost, I want to talk to you about the
book.
It's brand new, just wasreleased, called Heartbeats and
Handshakes, and there is anincredible review that has
already popped up.
I asked you if you knew thisperson.
You said no, which isincredible, but this is what
this person said.
This book actually changed theway I see doctors.
It reminded me that behind thedegrees and scrubs are people
(03:13):
doing their best to carry otherswith steady hands and
compassionate hearts.
That kind of quiet couragedeserves more credit than it
gets.
Dr. Kipp (03:23):
I'm flattered and I think it's fantastic that
someone would put a review likethat on Amazon.
I don't know this guy, but hehit the nail on the head.
I've said this a hundred timesand I always have to be careful
when I say this because itdepends on the audience and
you've got to know your audience.
There's such a distrust ofdoctors today and maybe it's
(03:49):
earned.
Maybe it's earned and, honestly, I was as conventional in the
medicine world as anybody untilmy father got sick in 2010.
And dad was a veterinarian.
He's since passed away, butwhen dad got sick, I said you
know, conventional medicine hasfailed him.
(04:11):
He got diagnosed withAlzheimer's.
The doctors literally said well, I still recall that this is 15
years ago, so it's such a slapin the face to the medical
profession.
Dad's sitting on an exam table.
My brother and I are there.
My brother's a critical carenurse.
(04:32):
I'm there.
We're both medical, so we'rerepresenting dad and dad.
The doctor is in the cornertyping on a computer because of
his electronic record.
He's not even looking at us.
We're like you don't even care.
We're just the Alzheimer'spatient in room four.
That's all we are.
You don't care about us.
(04:53):
And so I tried to show in thisbook that I've been writing for
years.
I tried to show the humanity ofmedicine and what it's like to
be a doctor and how you become adoctor.
I mean, the first chapterstarts with the first code, blue
I'm in.
So I'm a med student, I'm a DO.
(05:14):
I'm proud of that.
So, doctor of osteopathy versusdoctor of allopathy, and I do
our didactics allopathy and I doour didactics.
You know the first two years ofmedical school at our school
back in 1986 through 1990.
So I'm old.
So back in 1988, we did two anda half years of didactics and
(05:38):
then we started our clinicals.
This is before cell phones,this is before computers, this
is before instant technology.
And I'm talking to myclassmates that are older than
me and they're saying you got togo do these rotations.
I wasn't married at the time.
I had the freedom to goanywhere in the country, so I
chose to go to Florida.
(05:58):
I lined up three rotations Iget down to Florida, I drive
down there.
Rotations.
I get down to Florida, I drivedown there.
I get there and I've got mylittle short lab coat on which
proves you're a med student, nota doctor, and literally within
24 hours of being there I'm ontop of this patient doing CPR
(06:20):
for the first time and I'venever met the man.
I still remember his name.
It's imprinted in my brain justhow ominous it is to be the
doctor and to be in thatsituation.
And I was the lowly med student.
Thank God I had a guy who was avery good intern at the time,
who was guiding me and taking meand teaching me how to become a
(06:42):
doctor.
I've never forgotten that.
I've always carried that withme and as I look at 30 years of
medicine and how much it'schanged and how we've forgotten
the patient, I'm embarrassed.
Actually, I'm embarrassed formy profession.
And yet there's still somewonderful doctors and we get a
(07:05):
bad rap and we've earned a lotof it.
But it's a hard gig.
It is not an easy job to be adoctor.
Ashley (07:13):
Well, dr Kipp, how do you think that begins Like?
At what point is that seedplanted, that seed of apathy?
Dr. Kipp (07:21):
I make the point.
You go from one exam room tothe next and that's how you lose
the humanity of it.
If you get so involved witheach patient, you can't handle
it.
If you're honest with yourself,you can't handle it.
It's too great of aresponsibility.
So when the new mother is aboutto deliver and there's a birth
(07:47):
defect and you caught it on theultrasound, and in the next room
is the 50 year old executivewho just had his heart attack,
and in the next room is the 30year old male who's an athlete,
who just was diagnosed withtesticular cancer, and then in
the next room is a runny nose ona two-year-old and you have to
(08:07):
sort through all that and dealwith it.
It's a huge responsibility andhow you, every doctor deals with
it differently.
Unfortunately, we'vecorporatized medicine and now
doctors as a whole work for acorporation and so they don't
have to show their humanity.
You know, put it in their shift, check out at the end of the
(08:33):
day and go home.
Ashley (08:34):
I'm so grateful for your book for that exact reason,
because you mentioned the movingfrom room to room and every
patient is so different andsometimes you just are rapid
fire.
Big problems for these people,most of them their worst day.
They're in there spending itwith you.
And then the juxtaposed, youknow, like you mentioned a child
(08:56):
with a runny nose.
Well, obviously they're stillworried.
They're in your office, youknow just because he doesn't
have the heart attack.
Exactly, exactly.
And it's hard to maintain thatperspective sometimes and I
think one of the ways that youhave done this is by viewing
each of these patients asstories and not as numbers or
(09:19):
data points or billing codes ora spot on the algorithm.
If you view them as stories, Ido think it helps prevent
burnout.
I think it helps ward off thatcorporate medicine kind of
mentality.
It does protect thatpatient-patient relationship,
patient-provider relationshipjust a little bit Gosh.
30 years you have seen a lot ofchanges in medicine, I would
(09:42):
imagine.
Dr. Kipp (09:43):
They talk about the greatest advancements in
healthcare have happened in thelast 25 years, and I've lived,
I've been right there.
When I started, it was only thedoctors that were my mentors
had just heard about CAT scanswhen they started their career
and then our first CAT scan thatI used was a single slice CAT
(10:07):
scan.
It took about 30, 30 minutes todo a brain.
Now you can do it in fiveseconds.
This is done.
You know, it's just crazy.
Hold your breath and we scanthe entire body.
My son, my son is 20.
I have two sons.
My oldest son is 26.
And he just read the book andhe's a.
He's very smart, he's a giftedyoung man and he it's so
(10:32):
fascinating to get hisperspective.
He literally just finished itand he was here.
I got to spend some time withhim and I said what is the most
impactful story in this bookthat you just read?
And he said I picture you.
He said it's so fascinatingbecause I didn't know you then
as a med student.
And he said you're standing inthe.
(10:54):
There's a scene at thebeginning of the book where I'm
the med student in the back ofthe room and I'm watching and
I'm wide eyed and I.
You could tell I'm like.
I mean, if anyone could read mymind at the time.
I'm scared to death because Idon't know what to do and even
though I'd been through theclassroom, I don't know anything
.
And I'm standing there and thenfast forward, 36 months later,
(11:19):
48 months later, I'm the intern.
So now there's a med studentstanding in the back of the room
and I'm the guy managing thecode, putting in the chest tube,
doing all the stuff.
And I look over and I see thisand I make this mental note and
comment on it in the chapter of.
I recognize that look and Iknow exactly what that med
(11:41):
student's thinking because I wasthere and he said that is so
fascinating to get thatperspective.
And when you write you don'tknow if anyone's gonna.
First off, is your writing goodenough that you can take home
these points you want to takehome?
(12:01):
and I'm not sure you're right.
And then you test it, you putit out there and see what
happens.
And then your own son comes andsays exactly what you wanted to
get across and you're like like, dang, I nailed it.
Perfect, I got it.
And that's what's so excitingand fun and that's why I do it.
Ashley (12:18):
It's storytelling at its finest and, in my opinion,
communicating these hardconcepts is best done by
storytelling.
Dr. Kipp (12:25):
My family's been asking me for years when are you
going to finish that?
Your other books are fine,they're okay.
I like this, I like that.
When are you going to finishthe one we all want to read?
Ashley (12:35):
Well, it's just such a great reminder that the things
that are the most worth doingtake time In your case, decades,
you know, and laboring oversome of these projects is part
of the character of the project.
Sometimes you really learn tolove some of these things that
part of the character of theproject.
Sometimes you really learn tolove some of these things that
(12:57):
do take a solid amount of time,you know, over the 30 years of
practicing medicine I've donetwo residencies and a fellowship
.
Dr. Kipp (13:07):
I have practiced as a family physician, a radiologist,
an interventional radiologist,a pain doctor and now I'm a
regenerative medicine doctor.
Life takes you wherever you letit take you, if you're
open-minded to that and you'rewilling to step out of your
comfort zone.
Because every time I made achange I stepped out of my
comfort zone.
But I look at the future ofmedicine and I don't know.
(13:30):
It's scary.
What's going to happen.
Ai could replace doctors sofast.
It can't replace theproceduralist, but it could
replace the diagnostician.
Ashley (13:41):
Now Dr Kipp and I did not have an opportunity to
discuss a quality question, buthe brings up a really great
point.
At some point in one of yourupcoming interviews, I expect
you will be asked to comment onAI in healthcare.
Now this question could betaken a variety of different
ways, so I would recommendpondering this.
(14:03):
Ai is here to stay, but whatrole does it play in medicine?
Keep in mind that there's moreinterview prep, such as mock
interviews and personalstatement review over on
shadowmenextcom.
There, you'll find amazingresources to help you as you
prepare to answer your ownquality questions.
Absolutely true.
(14:24):
So, dr Kipp, tell me how youchoose these patient stories
give you the stories.
Dr. Kipp (14:36):
I don't have to create them.
The truth is stranger thanfiction.
The people are phenomenal.
We anonymize them because Idon't want anyone to know who
the real person is, but there'ssome phenomenal stories that you
can't make up, that just happenbecause you're in tune with
what's going on.
And then the next is going backto a second residency and how
hard that was.
And you know to be 40 years oldand now I'm the I'm the
(14:59):
supposedly standing there withthe 25 year old and they're
they're.
They and I are equals.
And yet I've seen more in my 15years in medicine than they've
ever thought about, and that wasfascinating.
Move up my wife to the other endof the country and then we
moved back to the Midwest andthen I practice and stumble
(15:19):
across regenerative medicine.
So I have another 50 stories towrite, of which I have about 15
done.
But this, I hope, is a box setone day and people will like it.
I hope it becomes, I hope itcatches legs.
You never know.
You write, you don't write.
There are people who writebecause they want the bestseller
(15:40):
and there are people who writebecause they have something to
say.
Well, I had something to say.
Ashley (15:45):
And that's why I wrote Well, it's the beautiful thing
about stories they canperpetuate and inspire
continuously.
They're the original, evergreen, right?
I mean they just keep on going.
Let's talk briefly about yourmultiple roles in medicine.
Obviously, these were spacedvery far apart.
What compelled you to go backat 40 to try something new and
(16:06):
then another shift intoregenerative medicine?
Is it just your interestniching down?
Is that something that couldhappen?
Dr. Kipp (16:12):
I think I'm a guy who gets bored, and I've kind of
figured that out.
You don't always know.
If you're honest with yourself,you may recognize these
character flaws in yourself oryou may just kind of push them
off to the side and never try toexplore it and understand it.
I've tried to understand whatmakes me tick.
(16:33):
I get bored, and when I getbored I go looking for the next
thing, and if you do somethinglong enough, you kind of perfect
it, you become good at it andthen you move to your next
challenge.
And that's what I did.
The next book is going to be mymost exciting of all, because
the people in this little townwe lived in were so interesting.
(16:55):
The local color wasunbelievable.
I literally reached the pointby the third year we were there
that I would tell Tracy, oh, andwe had a home that she drove
down and then came around behindto park in the garage, and then
I came up from the basement andso there was a split level, so
(17:15):
the front of the house was onthe street level and then the
garage was down below, and so Iwould say I can push the garage
door, but it won't be open fastenough and I'm going to fly into
the door as fast as I can.
So go ahead and push the doorfor me, because someone's going
to find me and catch me.
It was a town of 1500 peopleand if I had a run, if I would
(17:38):
have had the courage or theinterest in running a clinic out
of the front of the house,people would find me.
I'm not kidding.
I have a story of a lady.
I literally was in the grocerystore.
There's one, it's a one horsetown.
There's one stoplight.
There was one grocery store.
A lady stops me and says I'vegot this rash.
(18:01):
And I said why don't you comein and see me?
I'll be happy to see you.
Well, it's a friday and I'm notgoing to make it till Monday
and I really need to dosomething.
Well, have you considered theemergency room?
Yeah, but that's a waste andit's 30 miles away.
I'm not doing that.
Well, can, okay, let's stepbehind the produce counter.
(18:22):
And then she hikes up her skirtand shows me her rash.
So then I looked for the nextthing.
But that's really why I got outof family medicine.
Ashley (18:32):
Listen, working as a derm PA, I can attest that these
things happen literally all thetime.
Ironically, working as a GYN PA, that didn't happen as often.
Yeah, Dr Kipp, let's go back totalking about how the future of
medicine is scary, and it isespecially with AI, and how it
(18:54):
could replace the diagnosticianmaybe not the proceduralist, but
people are turning to AI, notjust for data now, but for
companionship and reassurance.
Dr. Kipp (19:08):
My brain goes straight to medicine and says okay,
how's that going to fit intomedicine?
Are you going to have thathologram appear on your computer
?
Technology is going to becomeso affordable that it'll only
cost you $200 to have thehologram show up and have the
true expert in the fielddiagnosing whatever you have and
(19:28):
explaining what you need to doabout it.
I mean, in some respects thatsounds really great, but what do
we need humans for at thatpoint?
What are we about?
And then, if you're acreationist or you believe in a
higher power or God, when doesGod say this was never my design
(19:52):
.
I knew I gave you a brain andthe ability to create technology
and to advance yourself as faras you can, but now you're going
too far because it's scary,scary stuff.
Ashley (20:04):
It is scary stuff.
I agree with you, and younailed it when you said well,
what do we need humans for?
And I think reading your bookwill give us that answer.
Dr. Kipp (20:17):
I wanted people to see our humanity and to understand
the relationship that Iestablished with each patient
that I meet.
I came there to find out what'sailing them and how can I help
them, if I can at all.
I think we're going to lose thehumanity of it with a computer,
and that's scary, because thetouch, the putting your hand on
(20:41):
someone's shoulder, the shakingsomeone's hand, the interaction
that we give as humans toanother human, cannot be
replaced and it's healing, it'sactually helps people to recover
and it takes away the fears andit helps us show our own
(21:04):
vulnerabilities.
And that's what life's aboutand that's what I try to point
out in this book.
Ashley (21:11):
Well, it just reminds me so much of your title, which
I've actually, after speakingwith you, see in a new light.
Originally Heartbeats and.
Dr. Kipp (21:19):
Handshakes.
I love this so.
Ashley (21:20):
Heartbeats and Handshakes.
When I first read it, it wasthe many patients that you've
seen.
It's a collection of stories,generally of patients.
They each have heartbeats, theyeach give a handshake,
typically unless it's 2020 andwe're not touching people.
But now I think I've come torealize that the heartbeats are
(21:41):
the two of you in the room it'sthe physician and it's the
patient, or it's the PA, it'sthe clinician, it's the nurse,
it's the social worker, it's thecase manager and it's the
patient and it's those twoheartbeats and then the
handshake and that times twotimes four, times six, which is
what equals a career in medicine.
That's what is so meaningful.
Dr. Kipp (21:59):
What you just described to me is the
collective soul that you know.
They talk about the energyfields that we have and we're
talking amongst a computer hereand it's through a video
connection and an audioconnection, but I can see you,
but yet it's not the same as ifwe were in the same room.
(22:20):
It's still unique and it stillcan be powerful, but it's not as
powerful as if you and I werein the same room, and I think
it's because of the energy thatwe each carry and our energy
fields actually cross over alittle bit.
But if you're in the same room,you can feel that and I think
that that's part of thecollective soul.
(22:41):
That happens in an exam roomwith a doctor that cares.
I did take my niece to my almamater and did a walk around.
Look at the school interviewwith her, because she's
considering medicine.
And as you're walking along andyou get to meet these young
(23:02):
people, they're impressive, man,are they sharp?
So it's not like we have abunch of dump skulls.
They're very sharp.
I just worried about the humaninteraction.
Are we so?
You talked about instantgratification?
Are we so fixated on the numberof followers that we have that
(23:23):
we lost sight of?
Why are they following you inthe first place?
It's like Forrest Gump hestarts running and next thing
you know, there's a whole crowdof people running behind him.
And then one day he stops andthey're like now what?
Well, we're done, I'm donerunning.
Ashley (23:38):
Dr Kipp, thank you so much for joining us today.
While we're sitting heretalking, I've already purchased
your book.
I'm thrilled to begin readingit.
I think it is something that wedesperately need to hear
Anybody who's interested inmedicine really because there
will be hard days andunderstanding how you're going
to get through those hard daysis best done by talking to
somebody who's done it for 30years.
(23:59):
I appreciate you sharing thestories and I appreciate you
joining us on Shadow Me Nexttoday.
Thank you so very much forlistening to this episode of
Shadow Me Next.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday, as always.
If you have any questions, letme know on Facebook or Instagram
(24:20):
Access.
You want stories you need?
You're always invited to ShadowMe Next.
Hello and welcome to Shadow Me Next, a podcast where
I take you into and behind thescenes of the medical world to
provide you with a deeperunderstanding of the human side
of medicine.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor and thecreator of Shadow Me Next.
It is my pleasure to introduceyou to incredible members of the
(00:22):
healthcare field and uncovertheir unique stories, the joys
and challenges they face andwhat drives them in their
careers.
It's access you want andstories you need, whether you're
a pre-health student or simplycurious about the healthcare
field.
I invite you to join me as wetake a conversational and
personal look into the lives andminds of leaders in medicine.
(00:45):
I don't want you to miss asingle one of these
conversations, so make sure thatyou subscribe to this podcast,
which will automatically notifyyou when new episodes are
dropped, and follow us onInstagram and Facebook at shadow
me next, where we will reviewhighlights from this
conversation and where I'll giveyou sneak previews of our
(02:19):
upcoming guests.
Thank you, guests.
And do not necessarily reflectthe official policy or position
of any other agency,organization, employer or
company.
Dr Kipp, thank you so much forjoining us on Shadow Me Next.
We've already spent some timetalking and I am just so
impressed not just with yourtrack record in medicine, but in
(02:41):
the ways that you are stillcontinuing to give back to
medicine as a whole.
So thank you for doing that andthank you so much for joining
us on the show today.
Dr. Kipp (02:50):
Happy to be here.
Ashley (02:52):
So, first and foremost, I want to talk to you about the
book.
It's brand new, just wasreleased, called Heartbeats and
Handshakes, and there is anincredible review that has
already popped up.
I asked you if you knew thisperson.
You said no, which isincredible, but this is what
this person said.
This book actually changed theway I see doctors.
It reminded me that behind thedegrees and scrubs are people
(03:13):
doing their best to carry otherswith steady hands and
compassionate hearts.
That kind of quiet couragedeserves more credit than it
gets.
Dr. Kipp (03:23):
I'm flattered and I think it's fantastic that
someone would put a review likethat on Amazon.
I don't know this guy, but hehit the nail on the head.
I've said this a hundred timesand I always have to be careful
when I say this because itdepends on the audience and
you've got to know your audience.
There's such a distrust ofdoctors today and maybe it's
(03:49):
earned.
Maybe it's earned and, honestly, I was as conventional in the
medicine world as anybody untilmy father got sick in 2010.
And dad was a veterinarian.
He's since passed away, butwhen dad got sick, I said you
know, conventional medicine hasfailed him.
(04:11):
He got diagnosed withAlzheimer's.
The doctors literally said well, I still recall that this is 15
years ago, so it's such a slapin the face to the medical
profession.
Dad's sitting on an exam table.
My brother and I are there.
My brother's a critical carenurse.
(04:32):
I'm there.
We're both medical, so we'rerepresenting dad and dad.
The doctor is in the cornertyping on a computer because of
his electronic record.
He's not even looking at us.
We're like you don't even care.
We're just the Alzheimer'spatient in room four.
That's all we are.
You don't care about us.
(04:53):
And so I tried to show in thisbook that I've been writing for
years.
I tried to show the humanity ofmedicine and what it's like to
be a doctor and how you become adoctor.
I mean, the first chapterstarts with the first code, blue
I'm in.
So I'm a med student, I'm a DO.
(05:14):
I'm proud of that.
So, doctor of osteopathy versusdoctor of allopathy, and I do
our didactics allopathy and I doour didactics.
You know the first two years ofmedical school at our school
back in 1986 through 1990.
So I'm old.
So back in 1988, we did two anda half years of didactics and
(05:38):
then we started our clinicals.
This is before cell phones,this is before computers, this
is before instant technology.
And I'm talking to myclassmates that are older than
me and they're saying you got togo do these rotations.
I wasn't married at the time.
I had the freedom to goanywhere in the country, so I
chose to go to Florida.
(05:58):
I lined up three rotations Iget down to Florida, I drive
down there.
Rotations.
I get down to Florida, I drivedown there.
I get there and I've got mylittle short lab coat on which
proves you're a med student, nota doctor, and literally within
24 hours of being there I'm ontop of this patient doing CPR
(06:20):
for the first time and I'venever met the man.
I still remember his name.
It's imprinted in my brain justhow ominous it is to be the
doctor and to be in thatsituation.
And I was the lowly med student.
Thank God I had a guy who was avery good intern at the time,
who was guiding me and taking meand teaching me how to become a
(06:42):
doctor.
I've never forgotten that.
I've always carried that withme and as I look at 30 years of
medicine and how much it'schanged and how we've forgotten
the patient, I'm embarrassed.
Actually, I'm embarrassed formy profession.
And yet there's still somewonderful doctors and we get a
(07:05):
bad rap and we've earned a lotof it.
But it's a hard gig.
It is not an easy job to be adoctor.
Ashley (07:13):
Well, dr Kipp, how do you think that begins Like?
At what point is that seedplanted, that seed of apathy?
Dr. Kipp (07:21):
I make the point.
You go from one exam room tothe next and that's how you lose
the humanity of it.
If you get so involved witheach patient, you can't handle
it.
If you're honest with yourself,you can't handle it.
It's too great of aresponsibility.
So when the new mother is aboutto deliver and there's a birth
(07:47):
defect and you caught it on theultrasound, and in the next room
is the 50 year old executivewho just had his heart attack,
and in the next room is the 30year old male who's an athlete,
who just was diagnosed withtesticular cancer, and then in
the next room is a runny nose ona two-year-old and you have to
(08:07):
sort through all that and dealwith it.
It's a huge responsibility andhow you, every doctor deals with
it differently.
Unfortunately, we'vecorporatized medicine and now
doctors as a whole work for acorporation and so they don't
have to show their humanity.
You know, put it in their shift, check out at the end of the
(08:33):
day and go home.
Ashley (08:34):
I'm so grateful for your book for that exact reason,
because you mentioned the movingfrom room to room and every
patient is so different andsometimes you just are rapid
fire.
Big problems for these people,most of them their worst day.
They're in there spending itwith you.
And then the juxtaposed, youknow, like you mentioned a child
(08:56):
with a runny nose.
Well, obviously they're stillworried.
They're in your office, youknow just because he doesn't
have the heart attack.
Exactly, exactly.
And it's hard to maintain thatperspective sometimes and I
think one of the ways that youhave done this is by viewing
each of these patients asstories and not as numbers or
(09:19):
data points or billing codes ora spot on the algorithm.
If you view them as stories, Ido think it helps prevent
burnout.
I think it helps ward off thatcorporate medicine kind of
mentality.
It does protect thatpatient-patient relationship,
patient-provider relationshipjust a little bit Gosh.
30 years you have seen a lot ofchanges in medicine, I would
(09:42):
imagine.
Dr. Kipp (09:43):
They talk about the greatest advancements in
healthcare have happened in thelast 25 years, and I've lived,
I've been right there.
When I started, it was only thedoctors that were my mentors
had just heard about CAT scanswhen they started their career
and then our first CAT scan thatI used was a single slice CAT
(10:07):
scan.
It took about 30, 30 minutes todo a brain.
Now you can do it in fiveseconds.
This is done.
You know, it's just crazy.
Hold your breath and we scanthe entire body.
My son, my son is 20.
I have two sons.
My oldest son is 26.
And he just read the book andhe's a.
He's very smart, he's a giftedyoung man and he it's so
(10:32):
fascinating to get hisperspective.
He literally just finished itand he was here.
I got to spend some time withhim and I said what is the most
impactful story in this bookthat you just read?
And he said I picture you.
He said it's so fascinatingbecause I didn't know you then
as a med student.
And he said you're standing inthe.
(10:54):
There's a scene at thebeginning of the book where I'm
the med student in the back ofthe room and I'm watching and
I'm wide eyed and I.
You could tell I'm like.
I mean, if anyone could read mymind at the time.
I'm scared to death because Idon't know what to do and even
though I'd been through theclassroom, I don't know anything
.
And I'm standing there and thenfast forward, 36 months later,
(11:19):
48 months later, I'm the intern.
So now there's a med studentstanding in the back of the room
and I'm the guy managing thecode, putting in the chest tube,
doing all the stuff.
And I look over and I see thisand I make this mental note and
comment on it in the chapter of.
I recognize that look and Iknow exactly what that med
(11:41):
student's thinking because I wasthere and he said that is so
fascinating to get thatperspective.
And when you write you don'tknow if anyone's gonna.
First off, is your writing goodenough that you can take home
these points you want to takehome?
(12:01):
and I'm not sure you're right.
And then you test it, you putit out there and see what
happens.
And then your own son comes andsays exactly what you wanted to
get across and you're like like, dang, I nailed it.
Perfect, I got it.
And that's what's so excitingand fun and that's why I do it.
Ashley (12:18):
It's storytelling at its finest and, in my opinion,
communicating these hardconcepts is best done by
storytelling.
Dr. Kipp (12:25):
My family's been asking me for years when are you
going to finish that?
Your other books are fine,they're okay.
I like this, I like that.
When are you going to finishthe one we all want to read?
Ashley (12:35):
Well, it's just such a great reminder that the things
that are the most worth doingtake time In your case, decades,
you know, and laboring oversome of these projects is part
of the character of the project.
Sometimes you really learn tolove some of these things that
part of the character of theproject.
Sometimes you really learn tolove some of these things that
(12:57):
do take a solid amount of time,you know, over the 30 years of
practicing medicine I've donetwo residencies and a fellowship
.
Dr. Kipp (13:07):
I have practiced as a family physician, a radiologist,
an interventional radiologist,a pain doctor and now I'm a
regenerative medicine doctor.
Life takes you wherever you letit take you, if you're
open-minded to that and you'rewilling to step out of your
comfort zone.
Because every time I made achange I stepped out of my
comfort zone.
But I look at the future ofmedicine and I don't know.
(13:30):
It's scary.
What's going to happen.
Ai could replace doctors sofast.
It can't replace theproceduralist, but it could
replace the diagnostician.
Ashley (13:41):
Now Dr Kipp and I did not have an opportunity to
discuss a quality question, buthe brings up a really great
point.
At some point in one of yourupcoming interviews, I expect
you will be asked to comment onAI in healthcare.
Now this question could betaken a variety of different
ways, so I would recommendpondering this.
(14:03):
Ai is here to stay, but whatrole does it play in medicine?
Keep in mind that there's moreinterview prep, such as mock
interviews and personalstatement review over on
shadowmenextcom.
There, you'll find amazingresources to help you as you
prepare to answer your ownquality questions.
Absolutely true.
(14:24):
So, dr Kipp, tell me how youchoose these patient stories
give you the stories.
Dr. Kipp (14:36):
I don't have to create them.
The truth is stranger thanfiction.
The people are phenomenal.
We anonymize them because Idon't want anyone to know who
the real person is, but there'ssome phenomenal stories that you
can't make up, that just happenbecause you're in tune with
what's going on.
And then the next is going backto a second residency and how
hard that was.
And you know to be 40 years oldand now I'm the I'm the
(14:59):
supposedly standing there withthe 25 year old and they're
they're.
They and I are equals.
And yet I've seen more in my 15years in medicine than they've
ever thought about, and that wasfascinating.
Move up my wife to the other endof the country and then we
moved back to the Midwest andthen I practice and stumble
(15:19):
across regenerative medicine.
So I have another 50 stories towrite, of which I have about 15
done.
But this, I hope, is a box setone day and people will like it.
I hope it becomes, I hope itcatches legs.
You never know.
You write, you don't write.
There are people who writebecause they want the bestseller
(15:40):
and there are people who writebecause they have something to
say.
Well, I had something to say.
Ashley (15:45):
And that's why I wrote Well, it's the beautiful thing
about stories they canperpetuate and inspire
continuously.
They're the original, evergreen, right?
I mean they just keep on going.
Let's talk briefly about yourmultiple roles in medicine.
Obviously, these were spacedvery far apart.
What compelled you to go backat 40 to try something new and
(16:06):
then another shift intoregenerative medicine?
Is it just your interestniching down?
Is that something that couldhappen?
Dr. Kipp (16:12):
I think I'm a guy who gets bored, and I've kind of
figured that out.
You don't always know.
If you're honest with yourself,you may recognize these
character flaws in yourself oryou may just kind of push them
off to the side and never try toexplore it and understand it.
I've tried to understand whatmakes me tick.
(16:33):
I get bored, and when I getbored I go looking for the next
thing, and if you do somethinglong enough, you kind of perfect
it, you become good at it andthen you move to your next
challenge.
And that's what I did.
The next book is going to be mymost exciting of all, because
the people in this little townwe lived in were so interesting.
(16:55):
The local color wasunbelievable.
I literally reached the pointby the third year we were there
that I would tell Tracy, oh, andwe had a home that she drove
down and then came around behindto park in the garage, and then
I came up from the basement andso there was a split level, so
(17:15):
the front of the house was onthe street level and then the
garage was down below, and so Iwould say I can push the garage
door, but it won't be open fastenough and I'm going to fly into
the door as fast as I can.
So go ahead and push the doorfor me, because someone's going
to find me and catch me.
It was a town of 1500 peopleand if I had a run, if I would
(17:38):
have had the courage or theinterest in running a clinic out
of the front of the house,people would find me.
I'm not kidding.
I have a story of a lady.
I literally was in the grocerystore.
There's one, it's a one horsetown.
There's one stoplight.
There was one grocery store.
A lady stops me and says I'vegot this rash.
(18:01):
And I said why don't you comein and see me?
I'll be happy to see you.
Well, it's a friday and I'm notgoing to make it till Monday
and I really need to dosomething.
Well, have you considered theemergency room?
Yeah, but that's a waste andit's 30 miles away.
I'm not doing that.
Well, can, okay, let's stepbehind the produce counter.
(18:22):
And then she hikes up her skirtand shows me her rash.
So then I looked for the nextthing.
But that's really why I got outof family medicine.
Ashley (18:32):
Listen, working as a derm PA, I can attest that these
things happen literally all thetime.
Ironically, working as a GYN PA, that didn't happen as often.
Yeah, Dr Kipp, let's go back totalking about how the future of
medicine is scary, and it isespecially with AI, and how it
(18:54):
could replace the diagnosticianmaybe not the proceduralist, but
people are turning to AI, notjust for data now, but for
companionship and reassurance.
Dr. Kipp (19:08):
My brain goes straight to medicine and says okay,
how's that going to fit intomedicine?
Are you going to have thathologram appear on your computer
?
Technology is going to becomeso affordable that it'll only
cost you $200 to have thehologram show up and have the
true expert in the fielddiagnosing whatever you have and
(19:28):
explaining what you need to doabout it.
I mean, in some respects thatsounds really great, but what do
we need humans for at thatpoint?
What are we about?
And then, if you're acreationist or you believe in a
higher power or God, when doesGod say this was never my design
(19:52):
.
I knew I gave you a brain andthe ability to create technology
and to advance yourself as faras you can, but now you're going
too far because it's scary,scary stuff.
Ashley (20:04):
It is scary stuff.
I agree with you, and younailed it when you said well,
what do we need humans for?
And I think reading your bookwill give us that answer.
Dr. Kipp (20:17):
I wanted people to see our humanity and to understand
the relationship that Iestablished with each patient
that I meet.
I came there to find out what'sailing them and how can I help
them, if I can at all.
I think we're going to lose thehumanity of it with a computer,
and that's scary, because thetouch, the putting your hand on
(20:41):
someone's shoulder, the shakingsomeone's hand, the interaction
that we give as humans toanother human, cannot be
replaced and it's healing, it'sactually helps people to recover
and it takes away the fears andit helps us show our own
(21:04):
vulnerabilities.
And that's what life's aboutand that's what I try to point
out in this book.
Ashley (21:11):
Well, it just reminds me so much of your title, which
I've actually, after speakingwith you, see in a new light.
Originally Heartbeats and.
Dr. Kipp (21:19):
Handshakes.
I love this so.
Ashley (21:20):
Heartbeats and Handshakes.
When I first read it, it wasthe many patients that you've
seen.
It's a collection of stories,generally of patients.
They each have heartbeats, theyeach give a handshake,
typically unless it's 2020 andwe're not touching people.
But now I think I've come torealize that the heartbeats are
(21:41):
the two of you in the room it'sthe physician and it's the
patient, or it's the PA, it'sthe clinician, it's the nurse,
it's the social worker, it's thecase manager and it's the
patient and it's those twoheartbeats and then the
handshake and that times twotimes four, times six, which is
what equals a career in medicine.
That's what is so meaningful.
Dr. Kipp (21:59):
What you just described to me is the
collective soul that you know.
They talk about the energyfields that we have and we're
talking amongst a computer hereand it's through a video
connection and an audioconnection, but I can see you,
but yet it's not the same as ifwe were in the same room.
(22:20):
It's still unique and it stillcan be powerful, but it's not as
powerful as if you and I werein the same room, and I think
it's because of the energy thatwe each carry and our energy
fields actually cross over alittle bit.
But if you're in the same room,you can feel that and I think
that that's part of thecollective soul.
(22:41):
That happens in an exam roomwith a doctor that cares.
I did take my niece to my almamater and did a walk around.
Look at the school interviewwith her, because she's
considering medicine.
And as you're walking along andyou get to meet these young
(23:02):
people, they're impressive, man,are they sharp?
So it's not like we have abunch of dump skulls.
They're very sharp.
I just worried about the humaninteraction.
Are we so?
You talked about instantgratification?
Are we so fixated on the numberof followers that we have that
(23:23):
we lost sight of?
Why are they following you inthe first place?
It's like Forrest Gump hestarts running and next thing
you know, there's a whole crowdof people running behind him.
And then one day he stops andthey're like now what?
Well, we're done, I'm donerunning.
Ashley (23:38):
Dr Kipp, thank you so much for joining us today.
While we're sitting heretalking, I've already purchased
your book.
I'm thrilled to begin readingit.
I think it is something that wedesperately need to hear
Anybody who's interested inmedicine really because there
will be hard days andunderstanding how you're going
to get through those hard daysis best done by talking to
somebody who's done it for 30years.
(23:59):
I appreciate you sharing thestories and I appreciate you
joining us on Shadow Me Nexttoday.
Thank you so very much forlistening to this episode of
Shadow Me Next.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday, as always.
If you have any questions, letme know on Facebook or Instagram
(24:20):
Access.
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You're always invited to ShadowMe Next.
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