August 11, 2025 • 27 mins
The medical world often focuses on protocols and procedures, but what happens when a patient's quality of life conflicts with the "safest" option? Catherine Moore, a licensed clinical social worker and creator of the top-performing Social Workers, Rise! podcast, who's worked in settings from hospice to ICUs, joins us to explore this crucial intersection of healthcare and humanity.
Catherine reveals how social workers serve as the essential bridge between medical teams and patients, especially when communication breaks down. Through powerful stories like the hospice patient who knew living at home was more important than following medical recommendations, she illustrates how social workers advocate for patients while helping clinical teams understand the deeper human narratives behind "non-compliance."
We dive into the versatile career paths available to social workers, from veterinary and sports social work to roles in schools, homeless services, and private practice. Catherine's creation of the RISE Directory, connecting social work associates with clinical supervisors, addresses a critical gap in the profession and highlights her commitment to mentorship and accessibility.
For pre-health students considering their career options, Catherine offers invaluable guidance on aligning natural gifts with professional choices. If you're the person friends call after a breakup or strangers randomly share their stories with, social work might be your calling. Her current telehealth practice focuses on women struggling with anxiety, providing them space to process emotions in a supportive environment.
Virtual shadowing is an important tool to use when planning your medical career. At Shadow Me Next! we want to provide you with the resources you need to find your role in healthcare and secure your place in medicine.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley Love (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Shadow Me Next, a podcast
where I take you into and behindthe scenes of the medical world
to provide you with a deeperunderstanding of the human side
of medicine.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor and thecreator of Shadow Me Next.
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(00:22):
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a pre-health student or simplycurious about the healthcare
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(00:44):
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When you meet Catherine Moore,you quickly realize she's built
(01:07):
her career around connection,both in the most human sense and
in the systems that makehealthcare possible.
Catherine is a licensedclinical social worker and the
host of Social Workers Rise, oneof the top 10 social work
podcasts in the world.
Her path has taken her fromhospice rooms to ICUs, from
(01:28):
policy work to palliative care,always serving as a bridge,
helping medical teams understandthe human stories behind a
patient's resistance, complianceor change.
In our conversation, she sharesthe moments that shape her,
like the patient who knewexactly what quality of life
meant for themselves, even whenthe medical plan said otherwise,
(01:49):
and how those moments reaffirmher belief in advocacy, empathy
and listening deeply.
We'll also talk about hercreation of the RISE Directory,
a national platform connectingsocial work associates with
clinical supervisors, and theimportance of mentorship, access
and ethical leadership.
Catherine's work is a reminderthat healthcare is as much about
(02:14):
honoring the whole person as itis about treating their
condition.
Please keep in mind that thecontent of this podcast is
intended for informational andentertainment purposes only and
should not be considered asprofessional medical advice.
The views and opinionsexpressed in this podcast are
those of the host and guests anddo not necessarily reflect the
(02:34):
official policy or position ofany other agency, organization,
employer or company.
This is Shadow Me Next withKatherine Moore.
Katherine, thank you so muchfor joining us on Shadow Me Next
today.
I personally am really excitedto talk to you about what you do
and gain a little bit moreclarity on exactly what a
licensed clinical social workerdoes.
(02:56):
So thanks for being here,thanks for joining us.
Yeah, thank you so much forhaving me.
So to start, just becausedefinitions are so important,
tell me exactly what your titleis and perhaps how you got there
, because I know you've had acouple of additional elements of
schooling too.
Catherine Moore (03:14):
Yes, yes, that's true.
So right now I am a licensedclinical social worker.
I do teletherapy a lot as myday job, but I do have years and
years of experience working inthe medical field as a clinical
social worker and I worked indifferent settings.
As far as hospices, outpatientpalliative goes, I worked in the
(03:36):
hospital and all of thedepartments with that, as far as
the ICU, the emergencydepartment, the maternity ward,
discharge, working with peoplewho are going into surgery, who
are coming out of surgery,people who have cancer going on
to hospice.
So the whole spectrum.
Ashley Love (03:53):
Wow, literally everything.
Yeah, that's very cool.
Now, when it comes to schooling, for social work, do you have
to have a certain element ofcollege?
Do you go immediately intosocial work, and then what does
it look like beyond that too?
So, typically, for social work,do you have to have a certain
element of college.
Do you go immediately intosocial work, and then what does
it look like beyond that too?
Catherine Moore (04:08):
So typically for social work in the United
States, you're going to haveeither a bachelor's in social
work, your master's in socialwork, and then the top tier is
going to be a licensed socialworker, a licensed clinical
social worker.
Depending on your state, youcan do different things, but
having the license is really theultimate end-all, be-all place
because that opens the mostamount of doors of what you can
(04:32):
do.
It means that you are licensedto provide individual therapy.
So all of these organizationslove to have therapists because
they know how valuable it is inconnecting with the clients,
because healthcare is all aboutthe people, the clients.
You have to have the empathy,the compassion, the
understanding and that's wherewe fit in.
(04:54):
But yeah, so having a bachelor'syou're going to learn kind of
basically an intro to the field.
You're going to get your feetwet in the different areas.
If you have a master's, that'swhere you're learning advanced
interventions as far as in eachsetting you know what would be
appropriate to do as a schoolsocial worker versus a medical
social worker versus if you'reworking in child protection
(05:14):
services or if you are runningyour own nonprofit or running
your own business.
So that's the master's is whereyou're going to get more into
those nitty gritty details.
And then the license, of course, is can you actually do the
clinical interventionseffectively?
Can you work as a therapistwithout causing harm and by
(05:34):
saying ethical?
You know all of those differentareas.
Ashley Love (05:38):
Wow, that's really really cool.
You know, it's so interestingbecause obviously I just have
like my medical hat on right now, but it sounds like it is so
multifaceted and there's so manydifferent ways.
You know, I think a lot ofpeople right now are so worried
that they're going to spend somuch time in school and so much
money in school and then they'regoing to get to the end and go
well, I've made a terriblemistake.
(05:59):
What have I done?
You know, and I think inmedicine that can, that can
happen to people.
It's one of the risks.
But in social work, you know,maybe you find yourself in a
place you might not really enjoy.
You can pivot right.
What does that pivot look like?
Is it incredibly complicated orare the roads pretty clear?
Catherine Moore (06:16):
For me it's been pretty clear because what
you learn in school is how towork with people, how to do an
assessment, how to build thatrapport, how to just help people
feel comfortable around you,how to ask questions, how to be
curious, and those skills aretransferable to everybody.
So, for example, with my ownexperience, I started my
(06:38):
bachelor's program.
I did an internship in anelementary school.
I quickly learned I didn't likeworking with parents so that
was not for me.
But I also ran an after-schoolprogram which is more macro
level right, like hiring staff,doing programming, activity
planning.
How are we going to developthese emotional and social
skills in the kids?
(06:59):
Also, I worked with policy andcreating a policy around elder
abuse.
And then I went on to doaffordable housing.
I worked with the food bank and, like I said, I kind of pivoted
my career into the medicalsetting because I just loved the
interaction between the humanand the medical and the science
(07:21):
and being that bridge for thewhole IDT team,
interdisciplinary medical team,to just be like hey, this is why
your client is so resistant,this is why they're not being
compliant with the medication,this is why you can't talk to
the client, but you must talk tothe spouse or the mom, or all
of those different culturaldynamics.
We really help to be thatbridge there, those different
cultural dynamics.
(07:41):
You know, we really helped tobe that bridge there.
Ashley Love (07:50):
Absolutely, and I know so many of us in medicine
are so grateful for you guysbecause you are the
professionals when it comes tounderstanding and liaising and
communicating between two peoplethat might be interpreting
things very differently.
You mentioned theinterdisciplinary team.
Tell me about that.
I mean, is it always kumbayaand everybody agrees and it is
just fantastic?
Or do you kind of have to standon things sometimes and say,
hey, let's get this done forthis patient?
(08:12):
What does that look like?
Catherine Moore (08:14):
Yes, that's a great question.
I wish it was always kumbaya.
But, like you said, a lot ofpeople just don't understand
what the role of social workersare, so we can get called in for
things that aren't appropriateor we have some magic wand like,
hey, make the patient do this,even though the patient is just
(08:35):
not ready to do that.
For example, a lot of times Iwould get called in for a
hospice consult.
So the patient has been comingin reoccurringly to the hospital
.
They don't know what to do andthe patient is just noncompliant
and the medical team is sayingthey need to be on hospice.
But when you talk to the client, they're not ready for hospice
(09:00):
and actually what's going on isthey live by themselves and they
keep falling.
Wow, and so by being able tobring in that extra support and
being that, those eyes and earsand the advocate for the patient
, a lot of times it's saying,okay, the real issue is safety.
Right now we just need tofigure out how do we get a
(09:23):
caregiver in?
How do we maybe recruit youradult children who live down the
street to come in and help youa little bit better?
Maybe we need a home healthnurse to visit for medication
management, so that we can kindof get all of these things
organized so that we can haveyou on the right medication at
the right time so you're notfeeling dizzy and falling
Because somebody who, yes, theyhave a chronic illness and it
(09:43):
likely will end their life.
They probably have many, manymore years if you put the right
supports in there.
And that's where we come in asfar as how do we maximize those
resources.
Ashley Love (09:53):
That's fabulous.
What a gift you offer to notjust the patients but the
clinicians too.
And I'm going to ask a question, and it is coming from a little
bit of a place of humility forme as a PA.
I think specifically as a PAand a lot of other providers
that I talk to.
We like to think that we arealways perfect patient advocates
.
We love to feel that right.
(10:14):
I mean that's why we went intomedicine.
We love people, we, we love ourpatients.
But if that was true then wewould not necessarily need our
incredible social workers allthe time.
When you bump into a clinicianthat perhaps has lost that view
of patient advocacy, or perhapsthey're just so frustrated with
(10:37):
the fact that this patientperhaps isn't getting better, or
maybe there's a little bit ofpride, a little pride problem in
that clinician, how do youapproach that?
Catherine Moore (10:46):
I would first validate that your emotions are
real.
It's just maybe there's a pieceof the picture that we're
missing, and there's always areason why people do what they
do and the clinicians you'rebusy, you guys do like so much
work and you don't have the timethat social workers often spend
(11:08):
to just sit there and say, hey,what's going on?
Because you say that you wantthis, but you keep doing this.
What's the disconnect?
What's happening here?
Because we want to make surethat we're all on the same page,
on the same goals, because you,as a clinician, you have your
goals, you know what's best forthe client, right?
(11:30):
Or a lot of times we come withour medical provider goggles and
like you need to do this, thisand this to extend your life,
right?
So a great example that I hadwas this woman.
She lived at home with herdaughter and she was on hospice.
So she was a little bit older,she was able to be independent,
ambulate, and one day she felland she broke her hip and her
(11:54):
daughter was like you know, Ineed more help.
I just can't be the caregiverfor her and the doctor's like
she must go to the, to the sniffright, to a skilled nursing
facility, there's no otheroptions, and the daughter's like
, well, okay.
And the doctor's like she mustgo to the SNF, right to a
skilled nursing facility,there's no other options.
And the daughter's like, well,okay.
And the patient says, no, Idon't want to go to a SNF, I
just want to be by myself.
And the client, the patient,knew what was best for her
(12:17):
because ultimately, what endedup happening is, even though her
issue was the broken hip, sheended up passing just a couple
of months later because she wasso incredibly depressed and that
depression impacts the physicalhealth.
So we see a lot of tragicendings like that, where the
medical team thinks that theyknow what's best safety-wise,
(12:39):
but there's so much more tohuman as far as quality of life
and what makes life worth living.
Ashley Love (12:46):
Now Catherine and I did not have a chance to
discuss a quality question, butshe brings up an excellent
opportunity to discuss somethingso important in one of your
pre-health school interviews.
How do you balance what youbelieve is best for a patient
with what the patient says theywant for themselves, especially
when those two things don'talign?
(13:06):
We talk a lot about advocacy inhealthcare, but what happens
when your version of advocacyconflicts with the patient's?
Catherine has been in thosemoments where the safest medical
option wasn't what the patientwanted and the right answer
depended on whose voice youlistened to.
If you're headed intohealthcare, think about how you
(13:28):
would approach that situation.
Keep in mind that there's moreinterview prep, such as mock
interviews and personalstatement review over on
shadowmenextcom.
There you'll find amazingresources to help you as you
prepare to answer your ownquality questions.
Absolutely and I think that is.
You guys are just such heroesin that sense.
I cannot tell you the number oftimes I've had guests on this
(13:49):
podcast and we've startedtalking about the team in
medicine, and they are alwaysmentioning our incredible social
workers and our case managersand the way that you guys just
bring such perspective back intothat patient and back into that
patient's life outside of thehospital, outside of the clinic,
outside of where we live andthink and focus and work.
(14:10):
So gosh, the tools you guysafford us are just incredible
and I'm so grateful for them.
Catherine, did you always knowyou wanted to be a social worker
?
Is this something you've alwayswanted to do?
Catherine Moore (14:21):
No, I had no idea.
So I was raised in the 90s andnobody talked about social work
or social advocacy, and the onlytime that we talked about
therapy was for people who haveschizophrenia and they're being
locked up, and so I'm sograteful that over the past 25
years, this narrative haschanged significantly and,
(14:44):
especially since 2020, therapyhas become very normalized and
this mental health component isbecoming more normalized.
It still has a long way to goas far as the stigma, but I
always tell people, just likeyou have physical health, that
can vary day to day, and yourphysical health can be good
sometimes and bad it's the samewith your mental health.
(15:05):
We all have mental health, andsometimes it's worse and
sometimes you're feeling great.
Ashley Love (15:12):
I think that is perfect what you just said.
We all have mental health.
I think people like to pretendlike they don't and it's just.
It would be like saying, well,I don't have a heartbeat.
I mean you do and you havemental health and it is
something like you said.
That can be extremely healthyand it can have.
It can have bad days too.
It doesn't necessarily meanit's, you know, totally
(15:33):
fractured, you know, with onesmall incident.
Thank you for saying that.
Um, catherine, you, um, youhave an incredible podcast
called social workers rise.
It reaches a global audience.
Tell me what topics or whatstories really seem to resonate
with your listener base.
Catherine Moore (15:51):
Yeah, that's a great question and, surprisingly
, that my top episode is whatcan you do with an MSW, a
master's in social work?
And so it just goes back tothat narrative around we don't
know what social workers do, wejust don't, even if you're
interested in the field.
A lot of times the only timethat we hear about social
(16:13):
workers is when they're takingpeople's kids away in child
protection services and I mean,thank God, I've never worked in
child protection services.
That is not my calling, I couldnot do that work.
And it's just like in themedical field.
There's so many different areasand specialties that social
(16:34):
workers have and it really justthere's so much education to do
around that area.
And I think that that episodeis most popular because for a
couple of different reasons.
One, new social workers comingin.
They're excited, they want toknow what their options are.
They want to hear stories fromother people in the field who
are doing amazing things.
So you know, for example, somelesser known social work areas
(16:57):
veterinary social work.
There's sports social work.
There's social workers who workin the NFL and these large
leagues.
There's also school socialworkers.
There's social workers who workin the jail.
They work with homelesspopulation.
They help with reentry into thegeneral population.
So there's so many differentniches that you can go into.
(17:19):
Also, on the second part, ithelps the seasoned social
workers too.
Also on the second part, ithelps the seasoned social
workers too, because a lot oftimes in school we're taught all
right, you got three mainoptions.
There's government, non-profitand private practice and
sometimes those just don't soundappealing to people.
So the seasoned social workerslove to know what's out there.
(17:42):
What kind of jobs can I besearching for?
How can I take my skills ofworking with people and put them
into a different area?
Ashley Love (17:50):
It's such a gift, the podcast that you have.
It's educational.
It's incredibly helpful for somany different people.
You know people who are justinterested, people who are
afraid to ask a social worker,hey, what do you do?
They don't want to be offensive.
They come to your page and theyget to learn all of this stuff
and it's just thank you fordoing that hard work and it is
(18:11):
hard work.
Let's talk about the RiseDirectory.
This is pretty special, soShadow Me Next.
This podcast was originallycreated because of access.
It's hard for students to getaccess to healthcare
professionals and other peopleworking in healthcare and see
what they do, and it sounds likethe RISE directory was kind of
born out of a similar need.
(18:32):
Tell me a little bit about it.
Catherine Moore (18:33):
Yes.
So in my state, where I'm at inCalifornia, you must be a
licensed clinical social workerfor two years in order to
supervise new and incomingsocial workers.
And I love mentorship, I loveteaching.
So I was super stoked when Ifinally reached my two years
post licensure and I'm like,okay, great, when are the
(18:55):
interns and the associates andthe supervisees?
And I'm ready for you.
But there was no, nowhere to go, no platform, nowhere to say
hey, I'm available.
You know, see if we want towork together.
And so, in doing my research,when I realized this was a
massive gap in the industry andyou know, before the directory,
(19:17):
and currently people are still,they're relying just either on
their boss or the socialconnections that they know in
their limited circle or Facebookgroups, and there's a lot of
problem with all of those,mainly being that it's such a
limited pool of people.
And when you have all of theseniches and specialties, you
(19:39):
really want to make sure thatthe supervisor that you have
they're essentially your mentorafter you graduate from graduate
school.
They're your mentor for thenext couple years and you want
to make sure that they'requality, that they know what
they're doing, that they'reskilled and, more importantly,
that you have a safe place toprocess how you're feeling and
(20:00):
the emotions and self-care andbalance and ethics and cultural
differences, because all ofthese things come up.
You know humans, working withhumans and as once you're well
in any professional, but onceyou're a therapist especially,
you have to be able to be veryclear on these are my beliefs
and that is not.
(20:21):
It should not impact my client'sbelief.
Right, and we could use just ahot topic as far as abortion,
right, If my client is wantingto get an abortion, but maybe I
personally am against that, Ihave to be able to recognize my
own resistance and honor thattheir journey is different and
(20:42):
whatever they feel is best fortheir journey, to respect that
autonomy and that right toself-determination and be able
to hold space for that.
Your job is not to convincewho's right or wrong, but to
hold space for those emotionsand be able to process it.
Ashley Love (21:01):
Right, so the RISE directory.
It connects social workers withsupervisors.
Catherine Moore (21:06):
then, I created the RISE directory as a
platform to connect clinicalsupervisors with associates,
because the associates needanywhere from like 500 to 3000
supervised hours, so a lot likethe medical professionals.
You know you have to do yourinternships and be supervised by
a license.
It's the same thing forlicensed clinical social workers
(21:26):
.
Ashley Love (21:27):
That's very cool.
Now you mentioned a couple oftimes you've mentioned, you know
, in the United States.
You've mentioned in California.
So different states havedifferent requirements.
Catherine Moore (21:38):
Where would somebody go?
Ashley Love (21:39):
If, like I'm in Florida, for example, the other
sunny state, where wouldsomebody go to to figure out
what that looks?
Catherine Moore (21:45):
like that is a great question If you were to
kind of search the social workgoverning board in Florida.
Ashley Love (21:55):
Okay, that makes sense.
Catherine Moore (21:56):
Yeah, then it'll pop up Right, and even
then they have different names,like in California it's the
Board of Behavioral Sciences.
Ashley Love (22:05):
Very cool.
So you know, just a nicegeneral search wherever you're
at, is probably going to be thebest option.
That is so interesting.
Medicine is such a wide world,isn't it?
There are so many differentavenues and options.
What would you say to a studentwho knows that they want to
make a difference in someone'slife and they want to be in the
medical field just because theyfeel drawn to it?
(22:26):
They love, like you said, theylove human, but they love the
biology and the inner workings.
For somebody trying to choosebetween, maybe, social work or
becoming a therapist orcounselor, etc.
What would you say to them andhow they should think about
these things?
Catherine Moore (22:47):
I would really encourage them to do the
research around what kind ofwork each of these professions
do, because that's going todetermine what your lifestyle
looks like.
So, if you are the kind wholikes talking to people, likes
hearing the stories, if you arethe kind who likes talking to
people, likes hearing thestories, if you are the kind who
likes to problem solve and puttogether resources and be
empathetic and be touchy-feely,as far as like emotions and
(23:09):
you're not scared, or if you'rethe person who your friends call
after they have a breakup orwhen they're having a bad day,
if people randomly in publiccome up to you and just start
sharing their story with you,that might mean that you might
be a good social worker.
But if, on the other side, ifyou just like the physical
aspect of it, as far as maybelike exercise and sports, then
(23:32):
maybe look into sports therapy.
Ashley Love (23:34):
I love the fact that you highlighted some of our
innate gifts right.
You know, I'm sure you run intopeople who think they want to
go into social work and in theback of your mind you're
thinking maybe not, maybe youwant to try something different.
You know, just kind of knowingyour own natural strengths,
people coming up to you, justthe approachability that one
(23:54):
might have.
Knowing that, I think, reallydoes help.
Now, does that mean thatsomebody who isn't highly
approachable can't succeed insocial work?
Absolutely not, but I do thinkthat it helps Oftentimes.
It helps that road be a littlebit less bumpy and it helps
prevent burnout because you knowyou're in a position that you
really you were called to do.
I think in those cases that'sfabulous.
(24:15):
Catherine, tell me a little bitright now about one of the
initiatives that you're doing,which is telehealth,
telemedicine, anxiety management.
Describe that for me.
Catherine Moore (24:28):
Yes, definitely .
So.
My main work that I'm doingright now is focusing on
providing telehealth for womenwho are struggling with anxiety,
and so what this looks like iswomen who maybe they're new moms
or they're busy working and sothey just need an hour out of
(24:48):
their week in order to processeverything that is happening, or
even space to just cry, becauseso many times we feel this
pressure to hold it all togetherand sometimes we have to right,
but maybe we need a place totalk to somebody, to cry it out
and to hear no, you're not crazy, you're doing a great job.
(25:12):
This is just a really, reallyhard situation, and that in
itself can be so powerful injust being able to sit for an
hour and to say brain dump, thisis everything that's happening,
and I feel like I'm going crazyand just hear like, well, no,
(25:32):
you just told me you're doingthis, this, that and that, and
that that's a lot.
And they'll say, oh, yeah, Iguess when you put it that way,
it is a lot.
So I work with women who aregoing into college, who are new
moms, who are just going throughlife transitions, relationship
struggles, and that's my mainfocus.
As far as therapy, I do alsohave services for social workers
(25:57):
, because I am really passionateabout mentoring the next
generation.
So, you know, still doing thesocial workers rise podcast, I
am working on revamping mycourse, which is designed for
new social workers who havegraduated and they're kind of
making that transition into thefield, connecting the dots there
as far as how to do that andalso running the Rise Directory
(26:21):
around.
How do we grow it, how do weincrease the awareness, how do
we let these busy professionalsknow that this exists?
And then I've also written somebooks that complement that work
as well for developingprofessionals.
Ashley Love (26:36):
Where do you find the time?
It's just such a well-roundedgift that you have given to this
field, so tell us a little bitabout where we can find you.
We've mentioned Social WorkersRise podcast.
We've mentioned the RiseDirectory, which is
risedirectorycom.
Where else can we find some ofthese things you just mentioned?
Catherine Moore (26:56):
Yeah, so my biggest following is on
Instagram.
It's at social workers rise,and then I'm also on LinkedIn.
Catherine LCSW, I believe, ismy last little thing for the
hyperlink.
Ashley Love (27:11):
Perfect, catherine.
Thank you so much for what youdo.
It is truly incredible andwe're so grateful for you and
all of the other social workersthat really just help us offer
the best care.
Thanks for joining us on shadowme next.
Thank you, ashley.
Thank you so very much forlistening to this episode of
shadow me next.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
(27:34):
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday, as always.
If you have any questions, letme know on Facebook or Instagram
Access.
You want stories you need.
You're always invited to shadowme next.
Hello and welcome to Shadow Me Next, a podcast
where I take you into and behindthe scenes of the medical world
to provide you with a deeperunderstanding of the human side
of medicine.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor and thecreator of Shadow Me Next.
It is my pleasure to introduceyou to incredible members of the
(00:22):
healthcare field and uncovertheir unique stories, the joys
and challenges they face andwhat drives them in their
careers.
It's access you want andstories you need, whether you're
a pre-health student or simplycurious about the healthcare
field.
I invite you to join me as wetake a conversational and
personal look into the lives andminds of leaders in medicine.
(00:44):
I don't want you to miss asingle one of these
conversations, so make sure thatyou subscribe to this podcast,
which will automatically notifyyou when new episodes are
dropped, and follow us onInstagram and Facebook at shadow
me next, where we will reviewhighlights from this
conversation and where I'll giveyou sneak previews of our
upcoming guests.
When you meet Catherine Moore,you quickly realize she's built
(01:07):
her career around connection,both in the most human sense and
in the systems that makehealthcare possible.
Catherine is a licensedclinical social worker and the
host of Social Workers Rise, oneof the top 10 social work
podcasts in the world.
Her path has taken her fromhospice rooms to ICUs, from
(01:28):
policy work to palliative care,always serving as a bridge,
helping medical teams understandthe human stories behind a
patient's resistance, complianceor change.
In our conversation, she sharesthe moments that shape her,
like the patient who knewexactly what quality of life
meant for themselves, even whenthe medical plan said otherwise,
(01:49):
and how those moments reaffirmher belief in advocacy, empathy
and listening deeply.
We'll also talk about hercreation of the RISE Directory,
a national platform connectingsocial work associates with
clinical supervisors, and theimportance of mentorship, access
and ethical leadership.
Catherine's work is a reminderthat healthcare is as much about
(02:14):
honoring the whole person as itis about treating their
condition.
Please keep in mind that thecontent of this podcast is
intended for informational andentertainment purposes only and
should not be considered asprofessional medical advice.
The views and opinionsexpressed in this podcast are
those of the host and guests anddo not necessarily reflect the
(02:34):
official policy or position ofany other agency, organization,
employer or company.
This is Shadow Me Next withKatherine Moore.
Katherine, thank you so muchfor joining us on Shadow Me Next
today.
I personally am really excitedto talk to you about what you do
and gain a little bit moreclarity on exactly what a
licensed clinical social workerdoes.
(02:56):
So thanks for being here,thanks for joining us.
Yeah, thank you so much forhaving me.
So to start, just becausedefinitions are so important,
tell me exactly what your titleis and perhaps how you got there
, because I know you've had acouple of additional elements of
schooling too.
Catherine Moore (03:14):
Yes, yes, that's true.
So right now I am a licensedclinical social worker.
I do teletherapy a lot as myday job, but I do have years and
years of experience working inthe medical field as a clinical
social worker and I worked indifferent settings.
As far as hospices, outpatientpalliative goes, I worked in the
(03:36):
hospital and all of thedepartments with that, as far as
the ICU, the emergencydepartment, the maternity ward,
discharge, working with peoplewho are going into surgery, who
are coming out of surgery,people who have cancer going on
to hospice.
So the whole spectrum.
Ashley Love (03:53):
Wow, literally everything.
Yeah, that's very cool.
Now, when it comes to schooling, for social work, do you have
to have a certain element ofcollege?
Do you go immediately intosocial work, and then what does
it look like beyond that too?
So, typically, for social work,do you have to have a certain
element of college.
Do you go immediately intosocial work, and then what does
it look like beyond that too?
Catherine Moore (04:08):
So typically for social work in the United
States, you're going to haveeither a bachelor's in social
work, your master's in socialwork, and then the top tier is
going to be a licensed socialworker, a licensed clinical
social worker.
Depending on your state, youcan do different things, but
having the license is really theultimate end-all, be-all place
because that opens the mostamount of doors of what you can
(04:32):
do.
It means that you are licensedto provide individual therapy.
So all of these organizationslove to have therapists because
they know how valuable it is inconnecting with the clients,
because healthcare is all aboutthe people, the clients.
You have to have the empathy,the compassion, the
understanding and that's wherewe fit in.
(04:54):
But yeah, so having a bachelor'syou're going to learn kind of
basically an intro to the field.
You're going to get your feetwet in the different areas.
If you have a master's, that'swhere you're learning advanced
interventions as far as in eachsetting you know what would be
appropriate to do as a schoolsocial worker versus a medical
social worker versus if you'reworking in child protection
(05:14):
services or if you are runningyour own nonprofit or running
your own business.
So that's the master's is whereyou're going to get more into
those nitty gritty details.
And then the license, of course, is can you actually do the
clinical interventionseffectively?
Can you work as a therapistwithout causing harm and by
(05:34):
saying ethical?
You know all of those differentareas.
Ashley Love (05:38):
Wow, that's really really cool.
You know, it's so interestingbecause obviously I just have
like my medical hat on right now, but it sounds like it is so
multifaceted and there's so manydifferent ways.
You know, I think a lot ofpeople right now are so worried
that they're going to spend somuch time in school and so much
money in school and then they'regoing to get to the end and go
well, I've made a terriblemistake.
(05:59):
What have I done?
You know, and I think inmedicine that can, that can
happen to people.
It's one of the risks.
But in social work, you know,maybe you find yourself in a
place you might not really enjoy.
You can pivot right.
What does that pivot look like?
Is it incredibly complicated orare the roads pretty clear?
Catherine Moore (06:16):
For me it's been pretty clear because what
you learn in school is how towork with people, how to do an
assessment, how to build thatrapport, how to just help people
feel comfortable around you,how to ask questions, how to be
curious, and those skills aretransferable to everybody.
So, for example, with my ownexperience, I started my
(06:38):
bachelor's program.
I did an internship in anelementary school.
I quickly learned I didn't likeworking with parents so that
was not for me.
But I also ran an after-schoolprogram which is more macro
level right, like hiring staff,doing programming, activity
planning.
How are we going to developthese emotional and social
skills in the kids?
(06:59):
Also, I worked with policy andcreating a policy around elder
abuse.
And then I went on to doaffordable housing.
I worked with the food bank and, like I said, I kind of pivoted
my career into the medicalsetting because I just loved the
interaction between the humanand the medical and the science
(07:21):
and being that bridge for thewhole IDT team,
interdisciplinary medical team,to just be like hey, this is why
your client is so resistant,this is why they're not being
compliant with the medication,this is why you can't talk to
the client, but you must talk tothe spouse or the mom, or all
of those different culturaldynamics.
We really help to be thatbridge there, those different
cultural dynamics.
(07:41):
You know, we really helped tobe that bridge there.
Ashley Love (07:50):
Absolutely, and I know so many of us in medicine
are so grateful for you guysbecause you are the
professionals when it comes tounderstanding and liaising and
communicating between two peoplethat might be interpreting
things very differently.
You mentioned theinterdisciplinary team.
Tell me about that.
I mean, is it always kumbayaand everybody agrees and it is
just fantastic?
Or do you kind of have to standon things sometimes and say,
hey, let's get this done forthis patient?
(08:12):
What does that look like?
Catherine Moore (08:14):
Yes, that's a great question.
I wish it was always kumbaya.
But, like you said, a lot ofpeople just don't understand
what the role of social workersare, so we can get called in for
things that aren't appropriateor we have some magic wand like,
hey, make the patient do this,even though the patient is just
(08:35):
not ready to do that.
For example, a lot of times Iwould get called in for a
hospice consult.
So the patient has been comingin reoccurringly to the hospital
.
They don't know what to do andthe patient is just noncompliant
and the medical team is sayingthey need to be on hospice.
But when you talk to the client, they're not ready for hospice
(09:00):
and actually what's going on isthey live by themselves and they
keep falling.
Wow, and so by being able tobring in that extra support and
being that, those eyes and earsand the advocate for the patient
, a lot of times it's saying,okay, the real issue is safety.
Right now we just need tofigure out how do we get a
(09:23):
caregiver in?
How do we maybe recruit youradult children who live down the
street to come in and help youa little bit better?
Maybe we need a home healthnurse to visit for medication
management, so that we can kindof get all of these things
organized so that we can haveyou on the right medication at
the right time so you're notfeeling dizzy and falling
Because somebody who, yes, theyhave a chronic illness and it
(09:43):
likely will end their life.
They probably have many, manymore years if you put the right
supports in there.
And that's where we come in asfar as how do we maximize those
resources.
Ashley Love (09:53):
That's fabulous.
What a gift you offer to notjust the patients but the
clinicians too.
And I'm going to ask a question, and it is coming from a little
bit of a place of humility forme as a PA.
I think specifically as a PAand a lot of other providers
that I talk to.
We like to think that we arealways perfect patient advocates
.
We love to feel that right.
(10:14):
I mean that's why we went intomedicine.
We love people, we, we love ourpatients.
But if that was true then wewould not necessarily need our
incredible social workers allthe time.
When you bump into a clinicianthat perhaps has lost that view
of patient advocacy, or perhapsthey're just so frustrated with
(10:37):
the fact that this patientperhaps isn't getting better, or
maybe there's a little bit ofpride, a little pride problem in
that clinician, how do youapproach that?
Catherine Moore (10:46):
I would first validate that your emotions are
real.
It's just maybe there's a pieceof the picture that we're
missing, and there's always areason why people do what they
do and the clinicians you'rebusy, you guys do like so much
work and you don't have the timethat social workers often spend
(11:08):
to just sit there and say, hey,what's going on?
Because you say that you wantthis, but you keep doing this.
What's the disconnect?
What's happening here?
Because we want to make surethat we're all on the same page,
on the same goals, because you,as a clinician, you have your
goals, you know what's best forthe client, right?
(11:30):
Or a lot of times we come withour medical provider goggles and
like you need to do this, thisand this to extend your life,
right?
So a great example that I hadwas this woman.
She lived at home with herdaughter and she was on hospice.
So she was a little bit older,she was able to be independent,
ambulate, and one day she felland she broke her hip and her
(11:54):
daughter was like you know, Ineed more help.
I just can't be the caregiverfor her and the doctor's like
she must go to the, to the sniffright, to a skilled nursing
facility, there's no otheroptions, and the daughter's like
, well, okay.
And the doctor's like she mustgo to the SNF, right to a
skilled nursing facility,there's no other options.
And the daughter's like, well,okay.
And the patient says, no, Idon't want to go to a SNF, I
just want to be by myself.
And the client, the patient,knew what was best for her
(12:17):
because ultimately, what endedup happening is, even though her
issue was the broken hip, sheended up passing just a couple
of months later because she wasso incredibly depressed and that
depression impacts the physicalhealth.
So we see a lot of tragicendings like that, where the
medical team thinks that theyknow what's best safety-wise,
(12:39):
but there's so much more tohuman as far as quality of life
and what makes life worth living.
Ashley Love (12:46):
Now Catherine and I did not have a chance to
discuss a quality question, butshe brings up an excellent
opportunity to discuss somethingso important in one of your
pre-health school interviews.
How do you balance what youbelieve is best for a patient
with what the patient says theywant for themselves, especially
when those two things don'talign?
(13:06):
We talk a lot about advocacy inhealthcare, but what happens
when your version of advocacyconflicts with the patient's?
Catherine has been in thosemoments where the safest medical
option wasn't what the patientwanted and the right answer
depended on whose voice youlistened to.
If you're headed intohealthcare, think about how you
(13:28):
would approach that situation.
Keep in mind that there's moreinterview prep, such as mock
interviews and personalstatement review over on
shadowmenextcom.
There you'll find amazingresources to help you as you
prepare to answer your ownquality questions.
Absolutely and I think that is.
You guys are just such heroesin that sense.
I cannot tell you the number oftimes I've had guests on this
(13:49):
podcast and we've startedtalking about the team in
medicine, and they are alwaysmentioning our incredible social
workers and our case managersand the way that you guys just
bring such perspective back intothat patient and back into that
patient's life outside of thehospital, outside of the clinic,
outside of where we live andthink and focus and work.
(14:10):
So gosh, the tools you guysafford us are just incredible
and I'm so grateful for them.
Catherine, did you always knowyou wanted to be a social worker
?
Is this something you've alwayswanted to do?
Catherine Moore (14:21):
No, I had no idea.
So I was raised in the 90s andnobody talked about social work
or social advocacy, and the onlytime that we talked about
therapy was for people who haveschizophrenia and they're being
locked up, and so I'm sograteful that over the past 25
years, this narrative haschanged significantly and,
(14:44):
especially since 2020, therapyhas become very normalized and
this mental health component isbecoming more normalized.
It still has a long way to goas far as the stigma, but I
always tell people, just likeyou have physical health, that
can vary day to day, and yourphysical health can be good
sometimes and bad it's the samewith your mental health.
(15:05):
We all have mental health, andsometimes it's worse and
sometimes you're feeling great.
Ashley Love (15:12):
I think that is perfect what you just said.
We all have mental health.
I think people like to pretendlike they don't and it's just.
It would be like saying, well,I don't have a heartbeat.
I mean you do and you havemental health and it is
something like you said.
That can be extremely healthyand it can have.
It can have bad days too.
It doesn't necessarily meanit's, you know, totally
(15:33):
fractured, you know, with onesmall incident.
Thank you for saying that.
Um, catherine, you, um, youhave an incredible podcast
called social workers rise.
It reaches a global audience.
Tell me what topics or whatstories really seem to resonate
with your listener base.
Catherine Moore (15:51):
Yeah, that's a great question and, surprisingly
, that my top episode is whatcan you do with an MSW, a
master's in social work?
And so it just goes back tothat narrative around we don't
know what social workers do, wejust don't, even if you're
interested in the field.
A lot of times the only timethat we hear about social
(16:13):
workers is when they're takingpeople's kids away in child
protection services and I mean,thank God, I've never worked in
child protection services.
That is not my calling, I couldnot do that work.
And it's just like in themedical field.
There's so many different areasand specialties that social
(16:34):
workers have and it really justthere's so much education to do
around that area.
And I think that that episodeis most popular because for a
couple of different reasons.
One, new social workers comingin.
They're excited, they want toknow what their options are.
They want to hear stories fromother people in the field who
are doing amazing things.
So you know, for example, somelesser known social work areas
(16:57):
veterinary social work.
There's sports social work.
There's social workers who workin the NFL and these large
leagues.
There's also school socialworkers.
There's social workers who workin the jail.
They work with homelesspopulation.
They help with reentry into thegeneral population.
So there's so many differentniches that you can go into.
(17:19):
Also, on the second part, ithelps the seasoned social
workers too.
Also on the second part, ithelps the seasoned social
workers too, because a lot oftimes in school we're taught all
right, you got three mainoptions.
There's government, non-profitand private practice and
sometimes those just don't soundappealing to people.
So the seasoned social workerslove to know what's out there.
(17:42):
What kind of jobs can I besearching for?
How can I take my skills ofworking with people and put them
into a different area?
Ashley Love (17:50):
It's such a gift, the podcast that you have.
It's educational.
It's incredibly helpful for somany different people.
You know people who are justinterested, people who are
afraid to ask a social worker,hey, what do you do?
They don't want to be offensive.
They come to your page and theyget to learn all of this stuff
and it's just thank you fordoing that hard work and it is
(18:11):
hard work.
Let's talk about the RiseDirectory.
This is pretty special, soShadow Me Next.
This podcast was originallycreated because of access.
It's hard for students to getaccess to healthcare
professionals and other peopleworking in healthcare and see
what they do, and it sounds likethe RISE directory was kind of
born out of a similar need.
(18:32):
Tell me a little bit about it.
Catherine Moore (18:33):
Yes.
So in my state, where I'm at inCalifornia, you must be a
licensed clinical social workerfor two years in order to
supervise new and incomingsocial workers.
And I love mentorship, I loveteaching.
So I was super stoked when Ifinally reached my two years
post licensure and I'm like,okay, great, when are the
(18:55):
interns and the associates andthe supervisees?
And I'm ready for you.
But there was no, nowhere to go, no platform, nowhere to say
hey, I'm available.
You know, see if we want towork together.
And so, in doing my research,when I realized this was a
massive gap in the industry andyou know, before the directory,
(19:17):
and currently people are still,they're relying just either on
their boss or the socialconnections that they know in
their limited circle or Facebookgroups, and there's a lot of
problem with all of those,mainly being that it's such a
limited pool of people.
And when you have all of theseniches and specialties, you
(19:39):
really want to make sure thatthe supervisor that you have
they're essentially your mentorafter you graduate from graduate
school.
They're your mentor for thenext couple years and you want
to make sure that they'requality, that they know what
they're doing, that they'reskilled and, more importantly,
that you have a safe place toprocess how you're feeling and
(20:00):
the emotions and self-care andbalance and ethics and cultural
differences, because all ofthese things come up.
You know humans, working withhumans and as once you're well
in any professional, but onceyou're a therapist especially,
you have to be able to be veryclear on these are my beliefs
and that is not.
(20:21):
It should not impact my client'sbelief.
Right, and we could use just ahot topic as far as abortion,
right, If my client is wantingto get an abortion, but maybe I
personally am against that, Ihave to be able to recognize my
own resistance and honor thattheir journey is different and
(20:42):
whatever they feel is best fortheir journey, to respect that
autonomy and that right toself-determination and be able
to hold space for that.
Your job is not to convincewho's right or wrong, but to
hold space for those emotionsand be able to process it.
Ashley Love (21:01):
Right, so the RISE directory.
It connects social workers withsupervisors.
Catherine Moore (21:06):
then, I created the RISE directory as a
platform to connect clinicalsupervisors with associates,
because the associates needanywhere from like 500 to 3000
supervised hours, so a lot likethe medical professionals.
You know you have to do yourinternships and be supervised by
a license.
It's the same thing forlicensed clinical social workers
(21:26):
.
Ashley Love (21:27):
That's very cool.
Now you mentioned a couple oftimes you've mentioned, you know
, in the United States.
You've mentioned in California.
So different states havedifferent requirements.
Catherine Moore (21:38):
Where would somebody go?
Ashley Love (21:39):
If, like I'm in Florida, for example, the other
sunny state, where wouldsomebody go to to figure out
what that looks?
Catherine Moore (21:45):
like that is a great question If you were to
kind of search the social workgoverning board in Florida.
Ashley Love (21:55):
Okay, that makes sense.
Catherine Moore (21:56):
Yeah, then it'll pop up Right, and even
then they have different names,like in California it's the
Board of Behavioral Sciences.
Ashley Love (22:05):
Very cool.
So you know, just a nicegeneral search wherever you're
at, is probably going to be thebest option.
That is so interesting.
Medicine is such a wide world,isn't it?
There are so many differentavenues and options.
What would you say to a studentwho knows that they want to
make a difference in someone'slife and they want to be in the
medical field just because theyfeel drawn to it?
(22:26):
They love, like you said, theylove human, but they love the
biology and the inner workings.
For somebody trying to choosebetween, maybe, social work or
becoming a therapist orcounselor, etc.
What would you say to them andhow they should think about
these things?
Catherine Moore (22:47):
I would really encourage them to do the
research around what kind ofwork each of these professions
do, because that's going todetermine what your lifestyle
looks like.
So, if you are the kind wholikes talking to people, likes
hearing the stories, if you arethe kind who likes talking to
people, likes hearing thestories, if you are the kind who
likes to problem solve and puttogether resources and be
empathetic and be touchy-feely,as far as like emotions and
(23:09):
you're not scared, or if you'rethe person who your friends call
after they have a breakup orwhen they're having a bad day,
if people randomly in publiccome up to you and just start
sharing their story with you,that might mean that you might
be a good social worker.
But if, on the other side, ifyou just like the physical
aspect of it, as far as maybelike exercise and sports, then
(23:32):
maybe look into sports therapy.
Ashley Love (23:34):
I love the fact that you highlighted some of our
innate gifts right.
You know, I'm sure you run intopeople who think they want to
go into social work and in theback of your mind you're
thinking maybe not, maybe youwant to try something different.
You know, just kind of knowingyour own natural strengths,
people coming up to you, justthe approachability that one
(23:54):
might have.
Knowing that, I think, reallydoes help.
Now, does that mean thatsomebody who isn't highly
approachable can't succeed insocial work?
Absolutely not, but I do thinkthat it helps Oftentimes.
It helps that road be a littlebit less bumpy and it helps
prevent burnout because you knowyou're in a position that you
really you were called to do.
I think in those cases that'sfabulous.
(24:15):
Catherine, tell me a little bitright now about one of the
initiatives that you're doing,which is telehealth,
telemedicine, anxiety management.
Describe that for me.
Catherine Moore (24:28):
Yes, definitely .
So.
My main work that I'm doingright now is focusing on
providing telehealth for womenwho are struggling with anxiety,
and so what this looks like iswomen who maybe they're new moms
or they're busy working and sothey just need an hour out of
(24:48):
their week in order to processeverything that is happening, or
even space to just cry, becauseso many times we feel this
pressure to hold it all togetherand sometimes we have to right,
but maybe we need a place totalk to somebody, to cry it out
and to hear no, you're not crazy, you're doing a great job.
(25:12):
This is just a really, reallyhard situation, and that in
itself can be so powerful injust being able to sit for an
hour and to say brain dump, thisis everything that's happening,
and I feel like I'm going crazyand just hear like, well, no,
(25:32):
you just told me you're doingthis, this, that and that, and
that that's a lot.
And they'll say, oh, yeah, Iguess when you put it that way,
it is a lot.
So I work with women who aregoing into college, who are new
moms, who are just going throughlife transitions, relationship
struggles, and that's my mainfocus.
As far as therapy, I do alsohave services for social workers
(25:57):
, because I am really passionateabout mentoring the next
generation.
So, you know, still doing thesocial workers rise podcast, I
am working on revamping mycourse, which is designed for
new social workers who havegraduated and they're kind of
making that transition into thefield, connecting the dots there
as far as how to do that andalso running the Rise Directory
(26:21):
around.
How do we grow it, how do weincrease the awareness, how do
we let these busy professionalsknow that this exists?
And then I've also written somebooks that complement that work
as well for developingprofessionals.
Ashley Love (26:36):
Where do you find the time?
It's just such a well-roundedgift that you have given to this
field, so tell us a little bitabout where we can find you.
We've mentioned Social WorkersRise podcast.
We've mentioned the RiseDirectory, which is
risedirectorycom.
Where else can we find some ofthese things you just mentioned?
Catherine Moore (26:56):
Yeah, so my biggest following is on
Instagram.
It's at social workers rise,and then I'm also on LinkedIn.
Catherine LCSW, I believe, ismy last little thing for the
hyperlink.
Ashley Love (27:11):
Perfect, catherine.
Thank you so much for what youdo.
It is truly incredible andwe're so grateful for you and
all of the other social workersthat really just help us offer
the best care.
Thanks for joining us on shadowme next.
Thank you, ashley.
Thank you so very much forlistening to this episode of
shadow me next.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
(27:34):
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday, as always.
If you have any questions, letme know on Facebook or Instagram
Access.
You want stories you need.
You're always invited to shadowme next.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.