August 25, 2025 • 39 mins
When a hospice nurse with thirty years of experience speaks about what matters most at the end of life, it's a story worth listening to. Jenny Lytle's journey into nursing began with an unlikely inspiration, a childhood fascination with thermometers during her own hospital stays, but has evolved into a profound calling that's taught her what true care really means.
"It's such a privilege to be with people in their hardest times, in their most vulnerable comments," Jenny shares, describing her nearly two decades in hospice nursing. While many assume hospice work must be relentlessly depressing, Jenny reveals a different reality: one where unexpected joy, meaningful connections, and even humor exist alongside grief. She dispels common misconceptions, like hospice means "giving up" or that patients no longer receive medication, and explains instead how the focus shifts to quality of life defined by each individual's unique priorities.
The conversation takes a deeply personal turn when Jenny describes helping finding her mother, also a nurse, receive hospice care in her final hours after a brain aneurysm. This devastating experience solidified what Jenny had observed throughout her career: healthcare providers excel at caring for others while neglecting their own needs. The realization sparked her mission to help caregivers develop sustainable self-care practices, culminating in her book "Self-Care Isn't Selfish" and the development of personalized approaches that don't feel like additional burdens.
For anyone considering a healthcare career, particularly in emotionally demanding fields like hospice, Jenny offers reassuring wisdom: it's not about caring less or becoming hardened, but about establishing boundaries and self-care practices that allow you to remain present and compassionate without burning out. Whether you're a pre-health student, a seasoned provider, or simply curious about the human side of medicine, this conversation will transform how you think about care, both for others and yourself.
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And check out more of what Jenny has to offer at her website: jennylytle.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Shadow Me Next, a podcast where
I take you into and behind thescenes of the medical world to
provide you with a deeperunderstanding of the human side
of medicine.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor and thecreator of Shadow Me Next.
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(00:22):
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It's access you want andstories you need, whether you're
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field.
I invite you to join me as wetake a conversational and
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(00:44):
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Me Next, where we will reviewhighlights from this
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upcoming guests.
Sometimes the road to medicinestarts with a noble calling.
(01:06):
Other times it starts with athermometer.
Jenny Lytle's journey intonursing began with a childhood
fascination, but over the last30 years most of it's been in
hospice care, she's found a fardeeper purpose being present
with patients and families intheir most vulnerable moments.
In this conversation, jennyshares what decades in hospice
(01:29):
have taught her about life lossand the power of presence.
She opens up aboutmisconceptions around hospice,
the unexpected joy and humorthat can exist alongside grief,
and why quality of care meanssomething different to everyone.
We also talk about a deeplypersonal turning point when
(01:51):
Jenny's mom, who's also a nurse,passed away unexpectedly, and
how that loss sparked hermission to help caregivers care
for themselves through her bookSelf-Care Isn't Selfish and the
Becoming Method.
If you've ever wondered what ittakes to thrive in such an
emotionally demanding field orhow to keep serving others
(02:13):
without emptying yourself, thisepisode will leave you with
insight, encouragement and maybeeven a new perspective on what
it means to truly care.
This is Shadow Me Next, withJenny Lytle.
Please keep in mind that thecontent of this podcast is
intended for informational andentertainment purposes only and
should not be considered asprofessional medical advice.
(02:36):
The views and opinionsexpressed in this podcast are
those of the host and guests anddo not necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany other agency, organization,
employer or company.
This is Shadow Me Next withJenny Lytle.
Jenny, thank you so much forjoining us on Shadow Me Next
today.
You have been in healthcare asa nurse for over 30 years.
(02:59):
You have a wealth ofinformation and really
interesting things that willapply not just to people
interested in nursing but peopleacross the board of medicine,
which is fabulous.
So thanks for joining us today.
Jenny Lytle (03:11):
Ashley, thank you so much.
I'm excited to be here.
Ashley (03:14):
Oh, it'll be a great conversation.
So let's go way back, jenny,it's been 30 years.
What initially drew you tomedicine and how did you choose
nursing?
Jenny Lytle (03:24):
Well, I would love to say that it's like some
really noble thing, but reallythe original thing was the
thermometer.
I was sick a lot when I wasyoung.
I spent some time in thehospital and I had some lung
issues and everything's good now.
But I love the thermometers andyou know the little holster
(03:45):
kind.
I really like the kind thatpeople still use now and I just
thought that was really cool.
And so that started my nursingjourney.
I thought I want one of thoseand then, throughout high school
and stuff, I thought maybe Iwant to do something more mental
health related.
You know, I was thinkingpsychology, psychiatry,
somewhere in there.
(04:05):
But then I got into a not greatrelationship and I decided you
know, this is really, this isreally a bad thing.
I didn't recognize that at thattime, but so let's just make it
all come together as quickly aspossible.
So I wanted to go to LPN schoolbecause my mom was like, okay,
before you get married, I wantyou to finish college.
(04:26):
And I'm like, okay, it's a yearprogram, it'll, it'll work and
thankfully did not marry.
The guy did go, went to schoolwith my mom and so that's that's
what started my my nursingcareer Probably not the most
traditional.
Ashley (04:43):
No, you know.
I love it though, because Ithink there's so many things in
our life that leads us to wherewe're at, and sometimes you
don't realize it in the momentthat that that shift is
happening until you know.
Somebody asked me on a podcast30 years later hey, how'd you
get into nursing?
That's a really neat story.
I love the visual of of thethermometer.
So, jenny, you work in hospicenow, which is a really.
(05:07):
I have worked with people inhospice before, and our nurses,
our hospice nurses, are just.
You guys are saints.
You are incredible, have youdid?
You always know that you wantedto work with people nearing the
end of their life and kind ofnavigate that path with them,
with people nearing the end oftheir life and kind of navigate
that path with them.
Jenny Lytle (05:28):
Not at all.
I had known of hospice and Ithink my grandma was technically
in hospice, like at thehospital, but she died when I
was four and a half, so I don'thave memories of that and I knew
the word hospice, but I had alot of misconceptions, like I
feel like a lot of people havehad where you know, I thought it
was just for people with cancerand people who were like dying
(05:51):
today or tomorrow.
And I actually got into hospicebecause I had done long term
care and some clinic work andthings like that.
But my close friend, her dad,had lung cancer and he had been
going through treatment andstuff and and then he woke up
one morning and had had a bigchange, went to the ER and they
(06:15):
sent him home with two weeks tolive on hospice and they were a
pretty non-medical family and soI spent a lot of time over
there for those two weeks and Igot to see what hospice was like
, you know, coming into the home, and I thought this is so cool,
you know, to not be hooked upto a bunch of machines, to be
(06:35):
able to go outside and smoke andhave all of his friends there
and all of that.
You know, I thought this iskind of cool.
I think I want to do this.
But side note, I'm the type ofperson that I want to do
everything Like I see a helpwanted sign at the gas station,
I'm like, well, that looks fun,you know so feel that yeah, do
you.
(06:57):
So, so I let it sit a little bit, you know, and and that was in
July of 2005.
And I started for working forthat same hospice in October of
2005.
So it's been almost 20 years inhospice.
Ashley (07:12):
That's incredible, and you know it's funny Now that you
say that.
It's jogging my memory and somany of the hospice nurses that
I know have literally been in itfor decades, decades.
So it must, Jenny.
there must be something about itthat is not just miserably sad
and depressing all the time, orelse I can't imagine you'd want
to stay in it for decades.
(07:32):
Is it generally speaking?
Just you mentionedmisconceptions.
Maybe we'll ask about that.
What are some of themisconceptions, and can you
clarify that for us, Becausesurely it's not always
incredibly sad?
Jenny Lytle (07:43):
Right, it's not, and that's the thing that people
have.
That and I used to love when Iwould have students that would
come and shadow me in personBecause it was, you know, they
would come in.
And some of them were like,okay, you know what?
You know, my grandma hadhospice and I'm really excited
about this, and most of themwere like I'm here because I
have to be, I know I'm not goingto do this, I don't want any
(08:05):
part of it.
And and it was like, okay, well, thanks for the honesty.
You know, we'll see how it is.
And and what all of themrealized is like it's not just
all gloom and doom.
You know, it's parts of it.
It's funny sometimes, and it'sparts of it.
(08:26):
It's funny sometimes and it'sand it's fun and it's such a
privilege to be able to be withpeople, with patients, with
families in, you know, a lot oftimes, a home setting, whether
that's in their private home orwherever they call home, you
know, an assisted living, anursing home, whatever, being
able to be there with them intheir hardest times, in their
most vulnerable.
You know, maybe the time whentheir house is the messiest
because it's their mostvulnerable.
You know, maybe the time whentheir house is the messiest,
(08:47):
because it's not a priority, youknow, and being able to be
there alongside people in thatspace is it's, it's just, it's
such a such a privilege and andit's an honor to be able to be
there.
And one of the things that Ireally do love about hospice is
that you're able to be with thepatient and the family
one-on-one in that moment.
(09:08):
Now you may have, you know,your phone may be blowing up,
you know that you have 20 otherpeople to go see, but in that
moment you're there with themand you know that's not the case
in a lot of other settings.
So that's, I think one of thebiggest misconception is that
it's just all, that it's all sad.
Another one is that it's givingup.
(09:30):
You know well, if somebody's onhospice, you know that's just,
they're just giving up.
You know either the the patientand family themselves are
giving up on treatment, or maybethe doctor feels like they're
giving up and that's a tough onebecause or like they failed
somehow.
You know the reality is we'reall going to die.
(09:52):
And you know there's a lot ofthings that we wish we could,
you know, could be different,and we wish that it was later,
or we had longer, or you know,or that there was different
circumstances.
But there are people who don'twant any kind of treatment, and
(10:13):
that's okay, you know.
The same as there are peoplewho will never want hospice.
They are going to want to doeverything that they can do,
fight up until their last breath, and that's okay too.
It's just understanding youknow what you're saying yes or
no to, and that's that's one ofthe big things with hospice.
It's not about giving up, it'sabout changing your focus,
(10:35):
changing the, your goals of careand and deciding.
You know, I want, I want tohave the best quality of life
for however long I have, and youknow, and sometimes that's less
and sometimes that's more.
It just it depends.
Ashley (10:50):
Options are a beautiful thing and I think they can be
overwhelming, but thank God wehave them because different
people have differentpreferences and those
preferences are going to leadthem to different options.
You know, I just you mentionedit so briefly, but it really it
really struck me when you'redescribing the patient that
maybe he just wanted to gooutside and smoke with his
(11:11):
friends.
You can't do that when you'rein the hospital.
First of all, you have to walkacross the street because you
can't do it in the hospital.
Also, you're connected to oxygenand tubes and lines, and your
friends have to pay for parkingbefore they can even come up to
your room to get you to go graba smoke.
We all know that smoking is bad, but when you are facing the
(11:33):
end of your life, we are goingto find comfort in a variety of
different things, and if that iswhat you have spent your whole
life doing, then so you know.
Thank God that we have hospicenurses like you to help support
these people as they take theirfinal steps in this world, to be
more comfortable and to exploretheir options and to enjoy
their options and focus on thethings that matter.
Jenny Lytle (11:54):
things like that Instead of, like you said,
instead of just being hooked upto lines and tubes in the
hospital room, right, right and,and having people who you know
who, who really are very adamantthat you know well, you
shouldn't be smoking.
This is what you know.
This is what got you here.
You know, like they know, thatand it's that way with family
(12:15):
members sometimes.
You know well, you know hestill wants to smoke and and you
know that's, it's not going tomatter.
Ashley (12:22):
You know Now Jenny and I did not get a chance to
discuss a quality question, butthis topic that she brings up
would make an excellentinterview question.
When a patient's choices goagainst your personal beliefs or
medical advice, how do yourespond?
This isn't a textbook question.
It's real life as a hospicenurse.
(12:45):
In Jenny's world, quality oflife looks different for every
patient.
Sometimes that means supportingdecisions you wouldn't make for
yourself.
Could you do it?
How would you explain yourreasoning in a professional
school interview?
Keep in mind that there's moreinterview prep, such as mock
interviews and personalstatement review, over on
(13:06):
shadowmenextcom.
There you'll find amazingresources to help you as you
prepare to answer your ownquality questions and that's
what I tell the patients and thefamilies like.
Jenny Lytle (13:14):
look at this point .
It may be, you know, it maymake it a little bit harder for
him to breathe in the moment,you know, or it may not, but in
reality, like it's not going tomake any difference in terms of,
you know, length of life.
But you know, if he hasn't quitin the past 50 years he
(13:34):
probably doesn't want to gothrough the withdrawal of that
right now.
Ashley (13:37):
The withdrawals alone.
Jenny Lytle (13:38):
Yes, exactly when it comes to the end of your life
.
I don't know.
I think it's easy to be healthyand feel like you've got a lot
of life left and feel like youknow what people should be doing
should be doing, and so hospiceis a little more about you know
(13:58):
, just letting people figurethat out for themselves and do
what they need to do to livehowever long they have with as
much dignity and joy and peaceas possible.
Ashley (14:05):
Exactly I just I love that so much and I think that is
such a cool.
It's such a cool thing that wehave access to.
Like you said, this issomething that everybody is
going to walk through one way orthe other, and allowing options
is just it's so important.
So, jenny, tell us what does atypical day look like for you?
Touched on it a little bit.
You know you might be seeingone patient in your mind, you
know you have a bunch of otherones, but what does you know?
(14:28):
Start to finish, what does itlook like?
Jenny Lytle (14:30):
Well, so for me my role is a little different than
it used to be.
I've done a lot of differentroles in hospice and so right
now I work after hours on call,so hopefully my role looks like
I'm sleeping.
My role looks like I go to bedat about 8 pm because I go on
call at 11 and I want to get anap in case I get called right
at 11.
But then, you know, butsometimes, like last night for
(14:52):
instance, I was on call from 11pm to 8 am this morning and I
got a call at oh, it was rightat midnight and it was about a
facility patient that was havingloose stools, and so they had
some loperamide there, but theydidn't have an order for it.
So they were like she's fine,other than that she just had
these two loose stools and we'dlike her to stop.
(15:14):
And so I called, got an orderfor that, called it to them and
didn't even need to make a visit, and that was the only thing I
did all night.
That doesn't always happen, youknow.
There's times when I'm out andI'm driving and doing things,
but for a, like a typical nursein hospice, a case manager, you
know.
So those are the RNs, who arethe ones that are, you know, the
(15:38):
primary nurse for thatparticular patient, and so they,
you know we start off with amorning call where we, you know,
do a 15 minute phone call.
Everybody just kind of calls inand hey, here's anything you
know new that's going on.
Or you know, maybe I'm going tobe out of commission for these
couple of hours or I've got thismeeting or whatever.
So then it's just starting to,you know, to go and see the
(16:01):
patients and and so that usuallylooks like you know, 45 minutes
to an hour with each patientand family and that's doing a.
You know doing an assessment.
You know getting vitals,listening to lungs and bowel
sounds and checking for edemaand things like that, and
reviewing medications, findingout if there have been any falls
(16:23):
, have there been any changes,what kind of symptoms are you
having?
Really looking at that wholeassessment and also any needs.
Maybe there are some DME needsthat are there or some
psychosocial things where youneed to involve more of the team
.
You know getting the, maybegetting the chaplain or the
social worker involved andreally making sure that
(16:45):
everything is is holistic.
And you know, in hospice, the,the patient and the family are
the unit of care.
So, it's, you know, it's notjust, it's not just making sure
the patient isn't having anypain, but it's, you know, it's
not just it's not just makingsure the patient isn't having
any pain, but it's, you know,it's educating the family and
supporting them as well, becauseof course, you know, being a
caregiver is tough.
It's tough when you're gettingpaid for it, but it's even
(17:08):
tougher when you're at home withthem 24 seven and sometimes
don't have much of a break.
So, and in the meantime, youknow, you're maybe getting calls
from patients and families whoare calling in and having
changes or needs and making surethat you know prescriptions are
refilled.
And so our team is really goodabout being proactive with those
(17:29):
kind of things, familiesknowing that, okay, we're going
to look at supplies and medsduring every visit and make sure
that you're not running low, sothat at 5.05 on a Friday we're
not getting calls about needingsupplies or needing medications
that somebody's going to be outof.
They're really good at that andI know from previous hospice
(17:51):
experience that is a godsend,especially to the on-call staff,
because it's, you know, whenyou're, when you're trying to do
those kinds of things, thenthat takes you away from maybe
other needs that are moreimportant really, but maybe not
quite as urgent.
And and just knowing you knowwhen, the, when the nurse and
(18:13):
the team knows the, the patientand the family a little more,
you know, it's just easier forthem to be able to manage those
kind of things.
So usually it's four to sixpatients a day, depending on
drive time and things like that.
And you know, sometimes thatsounds like not a lot and
sometimes it's not, depending onwhere they are, and other times
(18:34):
that's, you know, a a fulleight hour shift plus plus.
Ashley (18:38):
Jenny, people on hospice can still get medicine.
I mean, that's just.
I think that might be anothermisconception.
They think well we're justgoing to give you water, and
well, maybe not even water.
You just sit there and you know, pass away.
Jenny Lytle (18:51):
So that's not, it's it's still very much care,
Absolutely, absolutely.
It's just and honestly.
We still have people who arefull codes on hospice.
Ashley (19:00):
That's another kind of thing is, you know we got to be
a DNR?
Jenny Lytle (19:03):
No, you don't, because some people aren't,
they're just not there yet.
You know, one of the the bigthings about hospice is we meet
people where they are and soit's.
And so it seems like, well, ifyou, if you know, if you know
you're dying, why would you wantCPR?
Well, sometimes we get peopleyou know, ideally.
(19:24):
So let me just back up a littlebit to qualify for hospice,
because I think this is one ofthe first misconceptions to
qualify for hospice you don'thave to be like dying today or
tomorrow.
You have to have a physiciansay that if your disease runs
its normal course, you have alife expectancy of six months or
less.
So that's a lot of people,because none of us have an
(19:46):
expiration date, you know.
I mean, we don't know when thatis.
So you know, there are somepeople who, yes, they qualify
for that and maybe they continueto meet that criteria for two
years and so they, you know, cancontinue to stay on hospice, as
long as you know, as long asthat criteria continues to be
met.
So some people maybe they think, well, of course, you know,
(20:08):
like I've got, I've got cancer,but of course, if my heart stops
or I stop breathing.
Well, of course I want you torestart it, you know, because
that doesn't seem like thenatural progression in their
mind, you know, maybe at thattime.
And so the goal is to, you know, by the time somebody is
getting closer to death, to youknow, to have that so that it is
going to be a DNR, so that itis going to be able to be a
(20:29):
peaceful death.
But again, that's somethingthat doesn't always happen and
you know, in that situation thenwe tell them, you know, okay,
if you know, if that's what youwant, then you need to call 911
then, because we're not going toget there in time to do
anything, and but that's, that'sfew and far between.
But as far as treatment, youknow, even if somebody has a DNR
(20:51):
, that doesn't mean do not treat, that just means don't
resuscitate, you know.
So everything from a comfortstandpoint, we're still going to
be doing, and people, as longas they want to, you know, eat
and drink and all of that, thenabsolutely do that.
But that's the medication partis something where people get a
(21:12):
little, you know, confused aboutthat too.
There's a lot of misconceptionsin terms of end of life
medication and especiallymorphine.
Morphine is like the thing thatpeople hear and they're like oh
, I don't want morphine Becauseit's seen as a last.
You know, once they start themorphine, then that's it.
(21:32):
And there was some of that andthat's just because people's
pain wasn't treated well untilthen, you know, until close to
death.
And then it's like okay, well,now we don't have to worry about
you getting addicted, which wedon't have to worry about anyway
when somebody is dying.
But now it's.
(21:54):
You know, we treat pain likefrom the beginning.
If there's pain, you know, andsome people don't ever have pain
, some people don't ever haveshortness of breath, and so, you
know, not everybody.
It's not a one size fits allapproach, for sure.
You know it's everything isvery individualized and it's
people are treated to keep themcomfortable, and that depends on
(22:18):
what their goals are too,because some people would rather
be, hey, like I'm in a lot ofpain, I don't wanna be, maybe my
pain's a 10.
I want my pain to be a two, andfor some people that's not
realistic anyway, but I want mypain to be as low as possible,
even if that means I'm prettygroggy.
And then there's others who arelike I want my pain to be as
low as possible, even if thatmeans I'm pretty groggy.
And then there's others who arelike you know, I can deal with
a five or six if that means I'mable to still be able to talk
(22:40):
with my kids and my friends.
And so it's just figuring outwhat people's goals of care are
and and then helping themachieve that as best as we can.
Ashley (22:49):
Thank you so much for explaining all that so well.
You know, as you're talking anddescribing these things, it
just makes me wish sometimesthat in during life our regular
medical care could be asbeautifully tailored as it is at
our end of life care.
You know and I think that youguys, you just have such a great
way of listening to patients,listening to their families,
(23:11):
considering all options and thenpicking options that are best
for them, and I just I applaudyou so much, Jenny.
I'm going to shift gears herejust a little bit, but I want to
talk a little bit about yourmom and the story that's kind of
transpired since then, becauseit's such an interesting take.
I have talked to so many peoplewho have been inspired to enter
(23:32):
medicine because of theirfamily members.
Your mom was a nurse, You're anurse, and I think we just we
see what they're doing and wethink, wow, I really, really
want to do that.
And your story takes even moreof an interesting turn because
at a certain point your motherpassed away suddenly and that
caused you to realize, hey, whatwe're doing is an amazing job
(23:58):
and we're offering incrediblecare, but at what cost to us?
Absolutely Right.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat discovery and then some of
the really incredible thingsthat have come out of that.
Jenny Lytle (24:11):
Yeah, well, thank you.
So yes, my mom, my mom and Iwent to LPN school together and
I graduated from high school in93.
We went to LPN school andgraduated together in 94,
because she had always wanted tobe a nurse, but instead she was
a teen mom, and so so, yeah, wewere we, we did that and it was
(24:34):
, it was great.
Yeah, we were we, we did thatand it was, it was great.
We didn't ever actually work,work together very much, but but
we did some and of course, wehad, you know, the same language
.
And so that was that was cool tobe able to, you know, to talk
to each other about things.
And she had some health issuesand so she had been on
(24:55):
disability for a while and shewas one of those, you know, like
so many caregivers, so manypeople who are drawn to, you
know, healthcare and helpingprofessions.
She was somebody who would doeverything for everybody but
herself and she had an aneurysmand it was right in the middle
of her brain and she had knownthat it was there for a while
(25:17):
and, like I said, she did haveother things going on as well,
but she was going to.
She finally decided because shewasn't sure at first.
You know, do I want to doanything with it?
Because it's, you know, it'skind of risky with where it is
and it was right there at thecircle of Willis.
So yeah, there at the Circle ofWillis, so yeah, and so she
(25:41):
finally decided.
You know, I think I'm going togo ahead and get it taken care
of soon.
You know, as soon as all theseother things are taken care of,
that aren't quite as urgent assomething getting ready to
rupture in the middle of yourbrain.
But you know, but it had been.
So I don't know, my mom was.
My mom was incredibly tough.
She had been sick for a longtime and had a lot of things and
(26:05):
she was still just, she was avery strong, willed, stubborn
woman.
And you know when, when peopleare sick for so long or they've,
you know, they've had somethinggoing for so long you're like,
well, yeah, that's there and weknow that it could do something.
But come on, I mean, it's beenhere forever.
And so, yeah, and it didrupture and I went over and
(26:28):
found her.
I was going to be taking her tothe doctor and I was mad
because she was running late,like she was always running late
, and and I walk in and like thehouse was quiet and I'm like,
hello, come on, you know.
And nothing.
And yeah, and she was agonal,breathing in the bathtub.
And so about 30 hours later she,she passed away at the hospital
on hospice, because the, thehospital nurse wasn't quite
(26:55):
grasping like the the urgency ofthe situation.
You know I was, I was wantingher to be more comfortable.
And she's like, okay, well, youknow, we can see about a
morphine pump.
And I'm like, okay, that'sgreat, you know, she's been in
pain for like most of her lifeand she's not going to be now,
and she's like okay, so then shecomes back.
(27:17):
She's like, well, I put in areferral for that for in the
morning.
And I'm like are you seeingwhat I'm seeing?
Because there's not an in themorning, you know.
And so finally I was like, hmm,so thankfully I had a little bit
of pull still in our localhospice.
And so I'm like hey, I need youto get ahold of you know.
So I'm connected with myfriends.
One of them was there and andshe was able to get ahold of the
(27:37):
medical director and we gotthings going and got mom
comfortable and she was able topass peacefully.
But I realized after that thatthat I just like we needed to do
something different, as, ashealthcare providers, as people
who give and give and give, it'sso easy to think, oh well, I'll
(28:00):
get around to taking care of melater.
You know, I don't have time forthat.
Or you know, the old favoriteself care, selfish but it's that
really made me realize just howmuch we need to figure out how
to be able to meet our own needs.
And so that kind of led me onthis journey of, like, what does
(28:22):
that look like and how can itbe done without having to quit
work or having it feel like aanother full time job or when
you have a busy life, like, howdo you fit that in without
feeling guilty, without beingexhausted, when you're already
(28:44):
worn out?
You know, how do you stop fromjust sitting in front of the TV
and every night and vegging out,and I mean, and I do some of
that too.
You know, I definitely, Idefinitely don't have it all
figured out, but what I do knowis that the more that I practice
what I preach, the easier it is.
(29:04):
And when I do get off trackbecause I do, I'm human and I,
you know, I'm like, like I said,I want to do everything, and so
when I do that, then I'm ableto just rein it back in more
quickly and and figure outbecause I I put together a, a
process for for doing that, andbasically it's about, it's all
(29:25):
about personalizing what selfcare looks like for us, so kind
of like in hospice, where we,you know, tailor that to the
individual person and meet themwhere they're at.
That's that's the same way I dowith you know, with myself and
with my clients.
Is is really figuring out, like, what do I need most right now?
And and thinking about thethings that matter to me,
because they may be completelydifferent than the things that
(29:47):
fill you up.
Ashley (29:50):
Absolutely no.
That's so perfect, and thankyou for sharing that story about
your mom.
I think so often people assumethat, as healthcare
professionals, we haveeverything on lock in our own
lives when it comes tohealthcare and the healthcare of
our family.
And we're laughing because it'snot true.
(30:10):
No, not at all true, and evenwhen you enter the hospital, and
this is a place where you canbe very comfortable with
somebody who is dying, who youlove.
But you have been around thatsituation.
You know it's still verychallenging sometimes, um, for
you emotionally, but also thewhole process, the whole thing.
Like you said, um, let's talkabout your book.
(30:31):
Self-care isn't.
Self-care isn't.
Oh my gosh, self-care isn'tselfish.
Jenny Lytle (30:38):
It's not shellfish either.
Ashley (30:40):
It is definitely not shellfish.
Self-care isn't selfish.
It shares actionable strategiesfor healthcare providers and
for caregivers.
So I kind of.
This is a two-part question.
Number one as a healthcareprofessional, how would we know
(31:01):
when we need your book?
How would we know when we needto look at and and contact you
to talk about some of thesethings?
What would we be looking for inour own lives?
Jenny Lytle (31:06):
Really, I think it's that, that feeling like you
just don't have enough time,like you can't do enough, like
you're always behind, Likeyou're frustrated and don't have
enough time, like you can't doenough, like you're always
behind, like you're frustratedand don't know why.
Or the one that I fall into is,well, as soon as X, then Y, as
(31:28):
soon as I get done with thisthing, as soon as this, and then
I realize it just keeps on.
You know, there's not, it'slike a to-do list.
You know who gets done withtheir to-do list.
I mean, you may knock somethings off, but you know I've.
I'm like, look at that, Imarked four things off today, I
added six, but I knocked fouroff.
And it's like that.
(31:48):
It's just when you keepthinking well, soon I'll, and
then that's for me that's a bigtrigger when I know, okay, like
I've got to do, I've got to dosomething different.
And we do have those seasons inour lives.
But also, if we're notintentional about it, even when
we do have those seasons, andthen we let off, Like I know,
(32:10):
for me, when I get overextended,when I've let go of the
self-care a little too long,then I'll think okay, you know
what, I'm just going to keeppushing through this right now,
but next week, you know I'lllook and I'm like, okay, this is
a big week right now.
But you know I've got Monday andTuesday where you know I've got
some space.
I can get a bunch of this stuffdone.
Almost every time, Monday orTuesday, one of those days I'll
(32:33):
wake up, and I did that thisweek.
I woke up and I was like myhead hurts so bad, Like I felt
like I was so hungover I was not, but I mean my, I just I ended
up needing to sleep more.
I had to take, you know, mymigraine medicine and I'm like,
okay, so there goes some ofthose days.
And a big part of that is I knowI need massages, like every
(32:55):
four to six weeks.
That's kind of my sweet spot.
It's been since January, justbecause of life and because of
money and because of you know,all those things.
It's like I'm just going towait on that just a little bit
longer and my body's going hey,hey, longer is up, Longer is
over.
Yes, yes, but it's knowingthose kind of things about
(33:27):
ourselves.
And so back to your initialquestion of how would somebody
know?
Part of that too is, if youthink okay, I know something
needs to be different and Idon't know, we're probably gonna
say something about this at theend, but you can get a free
copy of my, of my book, on mywebsite, which is Jenny Lytlecom
, or you can just go to selfcare isn't selfishcom?
And get that too.
But but yeah, it's just a greatplace to start.
(33:48):
It's a it's a short book.
I kept it.
I kept it little because, well,partly because I don't have a
long attention span.
I know you probably can't tellthat, but also, the people who
really need it aren't people whoare going to sit down and read
a 300 page book on, you know.
So it's, it's something whereyou can.
You can read it very quickly.
You know it's probably going totake you two or three hours if
(34:10):
you read it straight through andif not, it's very easy to, you
know, flip through and do littlebits at a time.
Ashley (34:17):
Absolutely fantastic, Jenny, and of course you're
incredible, because that was thepart two of my question is
where?
do we go next from here as wewrap up.
It has just been such anincredible conversation and I
feel so motivated.
Number one, to go schedule amassage I'm doing that today
yeah, good idea.
But number two, just to listenbetter and to consider more
(34:40):
things and then to take care ofmyself as well.
So it is so important because,like you said, you cannot pour
from an empty cup right, it'sjust not possible.
If you had somebody ask you orsomebody say I'm not strong
enough for medicine or I'm notstrong enough for a field like
hospice, what would you?
What would you say to thatperson?
Jenny Lytle (34:55):
You know there there are a lot of people who
say you know, oh, I could neverdo that and you know it's.
I would say it's probably notwhat you think it is and it just
it.
It depends on where your, yourpassions and your gifts lie,
(35:15):
like I've done, I've done someER, I've done a little bit of
stuff and I liked it.
But like I really like the, theone-on-one, the touchy-feely
parts, you know.
So if you're somebody, you knowit's what people oh, you know I
just care too much.
I couldn't do that.
Well, okay, so I guess I don'tcare, but I do.
You know that I really do.
But it is so, so important toend up having boundaries and
having ways to take care ofyourself, because it does.
(35:38):
It is, you know, compassion,fatigue is a real thing.
It does get heavy at times andyou do get attached to people.
You know I never want to get towhere I don't care.
So you know I cry with a lot ofmy patients and families and
when I get to a point where I'mjust like just another day, then
I'm done because I don't wantto be that person.
(35:59):
But it's just being able to getclear on what it is that
matters most to you.
And I think if it's somethingwhere you're like, I don't know,
but check it out.
You know, if it's somethingthat you feel kind of like I
don't know, it's a maybe there'ssomething there, then then you
(36:22):
know, look into it.
It's it's not for everybody forsure, but it's a different.
It's definitely a different wayof looking at health care and
and it's something to that,sometimes people feel like, well
, you know, I'm going to loseall of my skills or whatever if
I'm doing that.
And I mean there are somethings that you know that we
(36:44):
don't do, obviously, in hospice,that we would be doing in a
hospital.
But I also realized one day,because I used to, you know,
kind of think well, you knowthat there's so much thought
about, you know people who workin hospitals.
They're the.
When you say you're a nurse,you know it's like, oh well,
what hospital do you work at?
It's like you know most nursesdon't work in hospitals, but
that's OK, but it's.
(37:04):
But it's when you're out withsomebody in the middle of the
night, you have what's availablein the home and you know, maybe
some a catheter and some otherrandom supplies you know basic
wound care supplies in your carand there's something going on.
I mean you've got to, you'vegot to pull out the MacGyver
stops and figure out you knowhow am I going to, how am I
(37:26):
going to manage this, and butthat's one of the things that's
kind of that's kind of fun aboutit if you're wired that way.
Ashley (37:33):
The creativity there Absolutely.
And I'm so glad you mentionedjust knowing your own innate
gifts too, because I do think,and of course I laughed
hysterically when you said, well, I must not care, because, like
, that's just the perfect answerto when people ask you about
knowing, knowing your innategifts will.
It's not to say that if youdon't have those gifts you won't
do well in hospice, but it just, god, it makes the road so much
(37:55):
easier.
You know, if you are the personthat can emote with a patient,
that can sit there and feel whatthey're feeling, because the
good Lord knows, when I am thatpatient, I would like to have a
provider sitting there with mesaying you know, I understand.
Jenny Lytle (38:11):
I feel.
Ashley (38:11):
I feel that you know, I don't want somebody who's been
heartened by their life inmedicine just kind of staring at
me, watching, watching me cryRight Right.
I so appreciate it.
Jenny, you mentioned a coupleof places where we could find
you.
Where can we find you if we arelooking for more information or
just to learn more about thisincredible field?
Jenny Lytle (38:32):
Sure.
So if you go to Jenny Lytlecom,that's, that's where you can.
Everything's attached there.
But you can see you can get thefree copy of my book.
You can see other things that Ihave to offer.
I do some blogging.
I've got a newsletter thatactually comes out three times a
week that that just really goesinto very simple, practical
(38:53):
tips for for being able to fitin self-care and stress relief
into busy lives.
Ashley (38:58):
Fabulous, Jenny.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for spending the timeand sharing your story with us
on Shadow Me Next.
I appreciate you.
Jenny Lytle (39:05):
Thank you so much, Ashley.
I appreciate the time.
Ashley (39:08):
Thank you so very much for listening to this episode of
Shadow Me Next.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday, as always.
If you have any questions, letme know on Facebook or Instagram
Access.
You want stories you need?
You're always invited to ShadowMe Next.
Hello and welcome to Shadow Me Next, a podcast where
I take you into and behind thescenes of the medical world to
provide you with a deeperunderstanding of the human side
of medicine.
I'm Ashley, a physicianassistant, medical editor,
clinical preceptor and thecreator of Shadow Me Next.
It is my pleasure to introduceyou to incredible members of the
(00:22):
healthcare field and uncovertheir unique stories, the joys
and challenges they face andwhat drives them in their
careers.
It's access you want andstories you need, whether you're
a pre-health student or simplycurious about the healthcare
field.
I invite you to join me as wetake a conversational and
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(00:44):
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Me Next, where we will reviewhighlights from this
conversation and where I'll giveyou sneak previews of our
upcoming guests.
Sometimes the road to medicinestarts with a noble calling.
(01:06):
Other times it starts with athermometer.
Jenny Lytle's journey intonursing began with a childhood
fascination, but over the last30 years most of it's been in
hospice care, she's found a fardeeper purpose being present
with patients and families intheir most vulnerable moments.
In this conversation, jennyshares what decades in hospice
(01:29):
have taught her about life lossand the power of presence.
She opens up aboutmisconceptions around hospice,
the unexpected joy and humorthat can exist alongside grief,
and why quality of care meanssomething different to everyone.
We also talk about a deeplypersonal turning point when
(01:51):
Jenny's mom, who's also a nurse,passed away unexpectedly, and
how that loss sparked hermission to help caregivers care
for themselves through her bookSelf-Care Isn't Selfish and the
Becoming Method.
If you've ever wondered what ittakes to thrive in such an
emotionally demanding field orhow to keep serving others
(02:13):
without emptying yourself, thisepisode will leave you with
insight, encouragement and maybeeven a new perspective on what
it means to truly care.
This is Shadow Me Next, withJenny Lytle.
Please keep in mind that thecontent of this podcast is
intended for informational andentertainment purposes only and
should not be considered asprofessional medical advice.
(02:36):
The views and opinionsexpressed in this podcast are
those of the host and guests anddo not necessarily reflect the
official policy or position ofany other agency, organization,
employer or company.
This is Shadow Me Next withJenny Lytle.
Jenny, thank you so much forjoining us on Shadow Me Next
today.
You have been in healthcare asa nurse for over 30 years.
(02:59):
You have a wealth ofinformation and really
interesting things that willapply not just to people
interested in nursing but peopleacross the board of medicine,
which is fabulous.
So thanks for joining us today.
Jenny Lytle (03:11):
Ashley, thank you so much.
I'm excited to be here.
Ashley (03:14):
Oh, it'll be a great conversation.
So let's go way back, jenny,it's been 30 years.
What initially drew you tomedicine and how did you choose
nursing?
Jenny Lytle (03:24):
Well, I would love to say that it's like some
really noble thing, but reallythe original thing was the
thermometer.
I was sick a lot when I wasyoung.
I spent some time in thehospital and I had some lung
issues and everything's good now.
But I love the thermometers andyou know the little holster
(03:45):
kind.
I really like the kind thatpeople still use now and I just
thought that was really cool.
And so that started my nursingjourney.
I thought I want one of thoseand then, throughout high school
and stuff, I thought maybe Iwant to do something more mental
health related.
You know, I was thinkingpsychology, psychiatry,
somewhere in there.
(04:05):
But then I got into a not greatrelationship and I decided you
know, this is really, this isreally a bad thing.
I didn't recognize that at thattime, but so let's just make it
all come together as quickly aspossible.
So I wanted to go to LPN schoolbecause my mom was like, okay,
before you get married, I wantyou to finish college.
(04:26):
And I'm like, okay, it's a yearprogram, it'll, it'll work and
thankfully did not marry.
The guy did go, went to schoolwith my mom and so that's that's
what started my my nursingcareer Probably not the most
traditional.
Ashley (04:43):
No, you know.
I love it though, because Ithink there's so many things in
our life that leads us to wherewe're at, and sometimes you
don't realize it in the momentthat that that shift is
happening until you know.
Somebody asked me on a podcast30 years later hey, how'd you
get into nursing?
That's a really neat story.
I love the visual of of thethermometer.
So, jenny, you work in hospicenow, which is a really.
(05:07):
I have worked with people inhospice before, and our nurses,
our hospice nurses, are just.
You guys are saints.
You are incredible, have youdid?
You always know that you wantedto work with people nearing the
end of their life and kind ofnavigate that path with them,
with people nearing the end oftheir life and kind of navigate
that path with them.
Jenny Lytle (05:28):
Not at all.
I had known of hospice and Ithink my grandma was technically
in hospice, like at thehospital, but she died when I
was four and a half, so I don'thave memories of that and I knew
the word hospice, but I had alot of misconceptions, like I
feel like a lot of people havehad where you know, I thought it
was just for people with cancerand people who were like dying
(05:51):
today or tomorrow.
And I actually got into hospicebecause I had done long term
care and some clinic work andthings like that.
But my close friend, her dad,had lung cancer and he had been
going through treatment andstuff and and then he woke up
one morning and had had a bigchange, went to the ER and they
(06:15):
sent him home with two weeks tolive on hospice and they were a
pretty non-medical family and soI spent a lot of time over
there for those two weeks and Igot to see what hospice was like
, you know, coming into the home, and I thought this is so cool,
you know, to not be hooked upto a bunch of machines, to be
(06:35):
able to go outside and smoke andhave all of his friends there
and all of that.
You know, I thought this iskind of cool.
I think I want to do this.
But side note, I'm the type ofperson that I want to do
everything Like I see a helpwanted sign at the gas station,
I'm like, well, that looks fun,you know so feel that yeah, do
you.
(06:57):
So, so I let it sit a little bit, you know, and and that was in
July of 2005.
And I started for working forthat same hospice in October of
2005.
So it's been almost 20 years inhospice.
Ashley (07:12):
That's incredible, and you know it's funny Now that you
say that.
It's jogging my memory and somany of the hospice nurses that
I know have literally been in itfor decades, decades.
So it must, Jenny.
there must be something about itthat is not just miserably sad
and depressing all the time, orelse I can't imagine you'd want
to stay in it for decades.
(07:32):
Is it generally speaking?
Just you mentionedmisconceptions.
Maybe we'll ask about that.
What are some of themisconceptions, and can you
clarify that for us, Becausesurely it's not always
incredibly sad?
Jenny Lytle (07:43):
Right, it's not, and that's the thing that people
have.
That and I used to love when Iwould have students that would
come and shadow me in personBecause it was, you know, they
would come in.
And some of them were like,okay, you know what?
You know, my grandma hadhospice and I'm really excited
about this, and most of themwere like I'm here because I
have to be, I know I'm not goingto do this, I don't want any
(08:05):
part of it.
And and it was like, okay, well, thanks for the honesty.
You know, we'll see how it is.
And and what all of themrealized is like it's not just
all gloom and doom.
You know, it's parts of it.
It's funny sometimes, and it'sparts of it.
(08:26):
It's funny sometimes and it'sand it's fun and it's such a
privilege to be able to be withpeople, with patients, with
families in, you know, a lot oftimes, a home setting, whether
that's in their private home orwherever they call home, you
know, an assisted living, anursing home, whatever, being
able to be there with them intheir hardest times, in their
most vulnerable.
You know, maybe the time whentheir house is the messiest
because it's their mostvulnerable.
You know, maybe the time whentheir house is the messiest,
(08:47):
because it's not a priority, youknow, and being able to be
there alongside people in thatspace is it's, it's just, it's
such a such a privilege and andit's an honor to be able to be
there.
And one of the things that Ireally do love about hospice is
that you're able to be with thepatient and the family
one-on-one in that moment.
(09:08):
Now you may have, you know,your phone may be blowing up,
you know that you have 20 otherpeople to go see, but in that
moment you're there with themand you know that's not the case
in a lot of other settings.
So that's, I think one of thebiggest misconception is that
it's just all, that it's all sad.
Another one is that it's givingup.
(09:30):
You know well, if somebody's onhospice, you know that's just,
they're just giving up.
You know either the the patientand family themselves are
giving up on treatment, or maybethe doctor feels like they're
giving up and that's a tough onebecause or like they failed
somehow.
You know the reality is we'reall going to die.
(09:52):
And you know there's a lot ofthings that we wish we could,
you know, could be different,and we wish that it was later,
or we had longer, or you know,or that there was different
circumstances.
But there are people who don'twant any kind of treatment, and
(10:13):
that's okay, you know.
The same as there are peoplewho will never want hospice.
They are going to want to doeverything that they can do,
fight up until their last breath, and that's okay too.
It's just understanding youknow what you're saying yes or
no to, and that's that's one ofthe big things with hospice.
It's not about giving up, it'sabout changing your focus,
(10:35):
changing the, your goals of careand and deciding.
You know, I want, I want tohave the best quality of life
for however long I have, and youknow, and sometimes that's less
and sometimes that's more.
It just it depends.
Ashley (10:50):
Options are a beautiful thing and I think they can be
overwhelming, but thank God wehave them because different
people have differentpreferences and those
preferences are going to leadthem to different options.
You know, I just you mentionedit so briefly, but it really it
really struck me when you'redescribing the patient that
maybe he just wanted to gooutside and smoke with his
(11:11):
friends.
You can't do that when you'rein the hospital.
First of all, you have to walkacross the street because you
can't do it in the hospital.
Also, you're connected to oxygenand tubes and lines, and your
friends have to pay for parkingbefore they can even come up to
your room to get you to go graba smoke.
We all know that smoking is bad, but when you are facing the
(11:33):
end of your life, we are goingto find comfort in a variety of
different things, and if that iswhat you have spent your whole
life doing, then so you know.
Thank God that we have hospicenurses like you to help support
these people as they take theirfinal steps in this world, to be
more comfortable and to exploretheir options and to enjoy
their options and focus on thethings that matter.
Jenny Lytle (11:54):
things like that Instead of, like you said,
instead of just being hooked upto lines and tubes in the
hospital room, right, right and,and having people who you know
who, who really are very adamantthat you know well, you
shouldn't be smoking.
This is what you know.
This is what got you here.
You know, like they know, thatand it's that way with family
(12:15):
members sometimes.
You know well, you know hestill wants to smoke and and you
know that's, it's not going tomatter.
Ashley (12:22):
You know Now Jenny and I did not get a chance to
discuss a quality question, butthis topic that she brings up
would make an excellentinterview question.
When a patient's choices goagainst your personal beliefs or
medical advice, how do yourespond?
This isn't a textbook question.
It's real life as a hospicenurse.
(12:45):
In Jenny's world, quality oflife looks different for every
patient.
Sometimes that means supportingdecisions you wouldn't make for
yourself.
Could you do it?
How would you explain yourreasoning in a professional
school interview?
Keep in mind that there's moreinterview prep, such as mock
interviews and personalstatement review, over on
(13:06):
shadowmenextcom.
There you'll find amazingresources to help you as you
prepare to answer your ownquality questions and that's
what I tell the patients and thefamilies like.
Jenny Lytle (13:14):
look at this point .
It may be, you know, it maymake it a little bit harder for
him to breathe in the moment,you know, or it may not, but in
reality, like it's not going tomake any difference in terms of,
you know, length of life.
But you know, if he hasn't quitin the past 50 years he
(13:34):
probably doesn't want to gothrough the withdrawal of that
right now.
Ashley (13:37):
The withdrawals alone.
Jenny Lytle (13:38):
Yes, exactly when it comes to the end of your life
.
I don't know.
I think it's easy to be healthyand feel like you've got a lot
of life left and feel like youknow what people should be doing
should be doing, and so hospiceis a little more about you know
(13:58):
, just letting people figurethat out for themselves and do
what they need to do to livehowever long they have with as
much dignity and joy and peaceas possible.
Ashley (14:05):
Exactly I just I love that so much and I think that is
such a cool.
It's such a cool thing that wehave access to.
Like you said, this issomething that everybody is
going to walk through one way orthe other, and allowing options
is just it's so important.
So, jenny, tell us what does atypical day look like for you?
Touched on it a little bit.
You know you might be seeingone patient in your mind, you
know you have a bunch of otherones, but what does you know?
(14:28):
Start to finish, what does itlook like?
Jenny Lytle (14:30):
Well, so for me my role is a little different than
it used to be.
I've done a lot of differentroles in hospice and so right
now I work after hours on call,so hopefully my role looks like
I'm sleeping.
My role looks like I go to bedat about 8 pm because I go on
call at 11 and I want to get anap in case I get called right
at 11.
But then, you know, butsometimes, like last night for
(14:52):
instance, I was on call from 11pm to 8 am this morning and I
got a call at oh, it was rightat midnight and it was about a
facility patient that was havingloose stools, and so they had
some loperamide there, but theydidn't have an order for it.
So they were like she's fine,other than that she just had
these two loose stools and we'dlike her to stop.
(15:14):
And so I called, got an orderfor that, called it to them and
didn't even need to make a visit, and that was the only thing I
did all night.
That doesn't always happen, youknow.
There's times when I'm out andI'm driving and doing things,
but for a, like a typical nursein hospice, a case manager, you
know.
So those are the RNs, who arethe ones that are, you know, the
(15:38):
primary nurse for thatparticular patient, and so they,
you know we start off with amorning call where we, you know,
do a 15 minute phone call.
Everybody just kind of calls inand hey, here's anything you
know new that's going on.
Or you know, maybe I'm going tobe out of commission for these
couple of hours or I've got thismeeting or whatever.
So then it's just starting to,you know, to go and see the
(16:01):
patients and and so that usuallylooks like you know, 45 minutes
to an hour with each patientand family and that's doing a.
You know doing an assessment.
You know getting vitals,listening to lungs and bowel
sounds and checking for edemaand things like that, and
reviewing medications, findingout if there have been any falls
(16:23):
, have there been any changes,what kind of symptoms are you
having?
Really looking at that wholeassessment and also any needs.
Maybe there are some DME needsthat are there or some
psychosocial things where youneed to involve more of the team
.
You know getting the, maybegetting the chaplain or the
social worker involved andreally making sure that
(16:45):
everything is is holistic.
And you know, in hospice, the,the patient and the family are
the unit of care.
So, it's, you know, it's notjust, it's not just making sure
the patient isn't having anypain, but it's, you know, it's
not just it's not just makingsure the patient isn't having
any pain, but it's, you know,it's educating the family and
supporting them as well, becauseof course, you know, being a
caregiver is tough.
It's tough when you're gettingpaid for it, but it's even
(17:08):
tougher when you're at home withthem 24 seven and sometimes
don't have much of a break.
So, and in the meantime, youknow, you're maybe getting calls
from patients and families whoare calling in and having
changes or needs and making surethat you know prescriptions are
refilled.
And so our team is really goodabout being proactive with those
(17:29):
kind of things, familiesknowing that, okay, we're going
to look at supplies and medsduring every visit and make sure
that you're not running low, sothat at 5.05 on a Friday we're
not getting calls about needingsupplies or needing medications
that somebody's going to be outof.
They're really good at that andI know from previous hospice
(17:51):
experience that is a godsend,especially to the on-call staff,
because it's, you know, whenyou're, when you're trying to do
those kinds of things, thenthat takes you away from maybe
other needs that are moreimportant really, but maybe not
quite as urgent.
And and just knowing you knowwhen, the, when the nurse and
(18:13):
the team knows the, the patientand the family a little more,
you know, it's just easier forthem to be able to manage those
kind of things.
So usually it's four to sixpatients a day, depending on
drive time and things like that.
And you know, sometimes thatsounds like not a lot and
sometimes it's not, depending onwhere they are, and other times
(18:34):
that's, you know, a a fulleight hour shift plus plus.
Ashley (18:38):
Jenny, people on hospice can still get medicine.
I mean, that's just.
I think that might be anothermisconception.
They think well we're justgoing to give you water, and
well, maybe not even water.
You just sit there and you know, pass away.
Jenny Lytle (18:51):
So that's not, it's it's still very much care,
Absolutely, absolutely.
It's just and honestly.
We still have people who arefull codes on hospice.
Ashley (19:00):
That's another kind of thing is, you know we got to be
a DNR?
Jenny Lytle (19:03):
No, you don't, because some people aren't,
they're just not there yet.
You know, one of the the bigthings about hospice is we meet
people where they are and soit's.
And so it seems like, well, ifyou, if you know, if you know
you're dying, why would you wantCPR?
Well, sometimes we get peopleyou know, ideally.
(19:24):
So let me just back up a littlebit to qualify for hospice,
because I think this is one ofthe first misconceptions to
qualify for hospice you don'thave to be like dying today or
tomorrow.
You have to have a physiciansay that if your disease runs
its normal course, you have alife expectancy of six months or
less.
So that's a lot of people,because none of us have an
(19:46):
expiration date, you know.
I mean, we don't know when thatis.
So you know, there are somepeople who, yes, they qualify
for that and maybe they continueto meet that criteria for two
years and so they, you know, cancontinue to stay on hospice, as
long as you know, as long asthat criteria continues to be
met.
So some people maybe they think, well, of course, you know,
(20:08):
like I've got, I've got cancer,but of course, if my heart stops
or I stop breathing.
Well, of course I want you torestart it, you know, because
that doesn't seem like thenatural progression in their
mind, you know, maybe at thattime.
And so the goal is to, you know, by the time somebody is
getting closer to death, to youknow, to have that so that it is
going to be a DNR, so that itis going to be able to be a
(20:29):
peaceful death.
But again, that's somethingthat doesn't always happen and
you know, in that situation thenwe tell them, you know, okay,
if you know, if that's what youwant, then you need to call 911
then, because we're not going toget there in time to do
anything, and but that's, that'sfew and far between.
But as far as treatment, youknow, even if somebody has a DNR
(20:51):
, that doesn't mean do not treat, that just means don't
resuscitate, you know.
So everything from a comfortstandpoint, we're still going to
be doing, and people, as longas they want to, you know, eat
and drink and all of that, thenabsolutely do that.
But that's the medication partis something where people get a
(21:12):
little, you know, confused aboutthat too.
There's a lot of misconceptionsin terms of end of life
medication and especiallymorphine.
Morphine is like the thing thatpeople hear and they're like oh
, I don't want morphine Becauseit's seen as a last.
You know, once they start themorphine, then that's it.
(21:32):
And there was some of that andthat's just because people's
pain wasn't treated well untilthen, you know, until close to
death.
And then it's like okay, well,now we don't have to worry about
you getting addicted, which wedon't have to worry about anyway
when somebody is dying.
But now it's.
(21:54):
You know, we treat pain likefrom the beginning.
If there's pain, you know, andsome people don't ever have pain
, some people don't ever haveshortness of breath, and so, you
know, not everybody.
It's not a one size fits allapproach, for sure.
You know it's everything isvery individualized and it's
people are treated to keep themcomfortable, and that depends on
(22:18):
what their goals are too,because some people would rather
be, hey, like I'm in a lot ofpain, I don't wanna be, maybe my
pain's a 10.
I want my pain to be a two, andfor some people that's not
realistic anyway, but I want mypain to be as low as possible,
even if that means I'm prettygroggy.
And then there's others who arelike I want my pain to be as
low as possible, even if thatmeans I'm pretty groggy.
And then there's others who arelike you know, I can deal with
a five or six if that means I'mable to still be able to talk
(22:40):
with my kids and my friends.
And so it's just figuring outwhat people's goals of care are
and and then helping themachieve that as best as we can.
Ashley (22:49):
Thank you so much for explaining all that so well.
You know, as you're talking anddescribing these things, it
just makes me wish sometimesthat in during life our regular
medical care could be asbeautifully tailored as it is at
our end of life care.
You know and I think that youguys, you just have such a great
way of listening to patients,listening to their families,
(23:11):
considering all options and thenpicking options that are best
for them, and I just I applaudyou so much, Jenny.
I'm going to shift gears herejust a little bit, but I want to
talk a little bit about yourmom and the story that's kind of
transpired since then, becauseit's such an interesting take.
I have talked to so many peoplewho have been inspired to enter
(23:32):
medicine because of theirfamily members.
Your mom was a nurse, You're anurse, and I think we just we
see what they're doing and wethink, wow, I really, really
want to do that.
And your story takes even moreof an interesting turn because
at a certain point your motherpassed away suddenly and that
caused you to realize, hey, whatwe're doing is an amazing job
(23:58):
and we're offering incrediblecare, but at what cost to us?
Absolutely Right.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat discovery and then some of
the really incredible thingsthat have come out of that.
Jenny Lytle (24:11):
Yeah, well, thank you.
So yes, my mom, my mom and Iwent to LPN school together and
I graduated from high school in93.
We went to LPN school andgraduated together in 94,
because she had always wanted tobe a nurse, but instead she was
a teen mom, and so so, yeah, wewere we, we did that and it was
(24:34):
, it was great.
Yeah, we were we, we did thatand it was, it was great.
We didn't ever actually work,work together very much, but but
we did some and of course, wehad, you know, the same language
.
And so that was that was cool tobe able to, you know, to talk
to each other about things.
And she had some health issuesand so she had been on
(24:55):
disability for a while and shewas one of those, you know, like
so many caregivers, so manypeople who are drawn to, you
know, healthcare and helpingprofessions.
She was somebody who would doeverything for everybody but
herself and she had an aneurysmand it was right in the middle
of her brain and she had knownthat it was there for a while
(25:17):
and, like I said, she did haveother things going on as well,
but she was going to.
She finally decided because shewasn't sure at first.
You know, do I want to doanything with it?
Because it's, you know, it'skind of risky with where it is
and it was right there at thecircle of Willis.
So yeah, there at the Circle ofWillis, so yeah, and so she
(25:41):
finally decided.
You know, I think I'm going togo ahead and get it taken care
of soon.
You know, as soon as all theseother things are taken care of,
that aren't quite as urgent assomething getting ready to
rupture in the middle of yourbrain.
But you know, but it had been.
So I don't know, my mom was.
My mom was incredibly tough.
She had been sick for a longtime and had a lot of things and
(26:05):
she was still just, she was avery strong, willed, stubborn
woman.
And you know when, when peopleare sick for so long or they've,
you know, they've had somethinggoing for so long you're like,
well, yeah, that's there and weknow that it could do something.
But come on, I mean, it's beenhere forever.
And so, yeah, and it didrupture and I went over and
(26:28):
found her.
I was going to be taking her tothe doctor and I was mad
because she was running late,like she was always running late
, and and I walk in and like thehouse was quiet and I'm like,
hello, come on, you know.
And nothing.
And yeah, and she was agonal,breathing in the bathtub.
And so about 30 hours later she,she passed away at the hospital
on hospice, because the, thehospital nurse wasn't quite
(26:55):
grasping like the the urgency ofthe situation.
You know I was, I was wantingher to be more comfortable.
And she's like, okay, well, youknow, we can see about a
morphine pump.
And I'm like, okay, that'sgreat, you know, she's been in
pain for like most of her lifeand she's not going to be now,
and she's like okay, so then shecomes back.
(27:17):
She's like, well, I put in areferral for that for in the
morning.
And I'm like are you seeingwhat I'm seeing?
Because there's not an in themorning, you know.
And so finally I was like, hmm,so thankfully I had a little bit
of pull still in our localhospice.
And so I'm like hey, I need youto get ahold of you know.
So I'm connected with myfriends.
One of them was there and andshe was able to get ahold of the
(27:37):
medical director and we gotthings going and got mom
comfortable and she was able topass peacefully.
But I realized after that thatthat I just like we needed to do
something different, as, ashealthcare providers, as people
who give and give and give, it'sso easy to think, oh well, I'll
(28:00):
get around to taking care of melater.
You know, I don't have time forthat.
Or you know, the old favoriteself care, selfish but it's that
really made me realize just howmuch we need to figure out how
to be able to meet our own needs.
And so that kind of led me onthis journey of, like, what does
(28:22):
that look like and how can itbe done without having to quit
work or having it feel like aanother full time job or when
you have a busy life, like, howdo you fit that in without
feeling guilty, without beingexhausted, when you're already
(28:44):
worn out?
You know, how do you stop fromjust sitting in front of the TV
and every night and vegging out,and I mean, and I do some of
that too.
You know, I definitely, Idefinitely don't have it all
figured out, but what I do knowis that the more that I practice
what I preach, the easier it is.
(29:04):
And when I do get off trackbecause I do, I'm human and I,
you know, I'm like, like I said,I want to do everything, and so
when I do that, then I'm ableto just rein it back in more
quickly and and figure outbecause I I put together a, a
process for for doing that, andbasically it's about, it's all
(29:25):
about personalizing what selfcare looks like for us, so kind
of like in hospice, where we,you know, tailor that to the
individual person and meet themwhere they're at.
That's that's the same way I dowith you know, with myself and
with my clients.
Is is really figuring out, like, what do I need most right now?
And and thinking about thethings that matter to me,
because they may be completelydifferent than the things that
(29:47):
fill you up.
Ashley (29:50):
Absolutely no.
That's so perfect, and thankyou for sharing that story about
your mom.
I think so often people assumethat, as healthcare
professionals, we haveeverything on lock in our own
lives when it comes tohealthcare and the healthcare of
our family.
And we're laughing because it'snot true.
(30:10):
No, not at all true, and evenwhen you enter the hospital, and
this is a place where you canbe very comfortable with
somebody who is dying, who youlove.
But you have been around thatsituation.
You know it's still verychallenging sometimes, um, for
you emotionally, but also thewhole process, the whole thing.
Like you said, um, let's talkabout your book.
(30:31):
Self-care isn't.
Self-care isn't.
Oh my gosh, self-care isn'tselfish.
Jenny Lytle (30:38):
It's not shellfish either.
Ashley (30:40):
It is definitely not shellfish.
Self-care isn't selfish.
It shares actionable strategiesfor healthcare providers and
for caregivers.
So I kind of.
This is a two-part question.
Number one as a healthcareprofessional, how would we know
(31:01):
when we need your book?
How would we know when we needto look at and and contact you
to talk about some of thesethings?
What would we be looking for inour own lives?
Jenny Lytle (31:06):
Really, I think it's that, that feeling like you
just don't have enough time,like you can't do enough, like
you're always behind, Likeyou're frustrated and don't have
enough time, like you can't doenough, like you're always
behind, like you're frustratedand don't know why.
Or the one that I fall into is,well, as soon as X, then Y, as
(31:28):
soon as I get done with thisthing, as soon as this, and then
I realize it just keeps on.
You know, there's not, it'slike a to-do list.
You know who gets done withtheir to-do list.
I mean, you may knock somethings off, but you know I've.
I'm like, look at that, Imarked four things off today, I
added six, but I knocked fouroff.
And it's like that.
(31:48):
It's just when you keepthinking well, soon I'll, and
then that's for me that's a bigtrigger when I know, okay, like
I've got to do, I've got to dosomething different.
And we do have those seasons inour lives.
But also, if we're notintentional about it, even when
we do have those seasons, andthen we let off, Like I know,
(32:10):
for me, when I get overextended,when I've let go of the
self-care a little too long,then I'll think okay, you know
what, I'm just going to keeppushing through this right now,
but next week, you know I'lllook and I'm like, okay, this is
a big week right now.
But you know I've got Monday andTuesday where you know I've got
some space.
I can get a bunch of this stuffdone.
Almost every time, Monday orTuesday, one of those days I'll
(32:33):
wake up, and I did that thisweek.
I woke up and I was like myhead hurts so bad, Like I felt
like I was so hungover I was not, but I mean my, I just I ended
up needing to sleep more.
I had to take, you know, mymigraine medicine and I'm like,
okay, so there goes some ofthose days.
And a big part of that is I knowI need massages, like every
(32:55):
four to six weeks.
That's kind of my sweet spot.
It's been since January, justbecause of life and because of
money and because of you know,all those things.
It's like I'm just going towait on that just a little bit
longer and my body's going hey,hey, longer is up, Longer is
over.
Yes, yes, but it's knowingthose kind of things about
(33:27):
ourselves.
And so back to your initialquestion of how would somebody
know?
Part of that too is, if youthink okay, I know something
needs to be different and Idon't know, we're probably gonna
say something about this at theend, but you can get a free
copy of my, of my book, on mywebsite, which is Jenny Lytlecom
, or you can just go to selfcare isn't selfishcom?
And get that too.
But but yeah, it's just a greatplace to start.
(33:48):
It's a it's a short book.
I kept it.
I kept it little because, well,partly because I don't have a
long attention span.
I know you probably can't tellthat, but also, the people who
really need it aren't people whoare going to sit down and read
a 300 page book on, you know.
So it's, it's something whereyou can.
You can read it very quickly.
You know it's probably going totake you two or three hours if
(34:10):
you read it straight through andif not, it's very easy to, you
know, flip through and do littlebits at a time.
Ashley (34:17):
Absolutely fantastic, Jenny, and of course you're
incredible, because that was thepart two of my question is
where?
do we go next from here as wewrap up.
It has just been such anincredible conversation and I
feel so motivated.
Number one, to go schedule amassage I'm doing that today
yeah, good idea.
But number two, just to listenbetter and to consider more
(34:40):
things and then to take care ofmyself as well.
So it is so important because,like you said, you cannot pour
from an empty cup right, it'sjust not possible.
If you had somebody ask you orsomebody say I'm not strong
enough for medicine or I'm notstrong enough for a field like
hospice, what would you?
What would you say to thatperson?
Jenny Lytle (34:55):
You know there there are a lot of people who
say you know, oh, I could neverdo that and you know it's.
I would say it's probably notwhat you think it is and it just
it.
It depends on where your, yourpassions and your gifts lie,
(35:15):
like I've done, I've done someER, I've done a little bit of
stuff and I liked it.
But like I really like the, theone-on-one, the touchy-feely
parts, you know.
So if you're somebody, you knowit's what people oh, you know I
just care too much.
I couldn't do that.
Well, okay, so I guess I don'tcare, but I do.
You know that I really do.
But it is so, so important toend up having boundaries and
having ways to take care ofyourself, because it does.
(35:38):
It is, you know, compassion,fatigue is a real thing.
It does get heavy at times andyou do get attached to people.
You know I never want to get towhere I don't care.
So you know I cry with a lot ofmy patients and families and
when I get to a point where I'mjust like just another day, then
I'm done because I don't wantto be that person.
(35:59):
But it's just being able to getclear on what it is that
matters most to you.
And I think if it's somethingwhere you're like, I don't know,
but check it out.
You know, if it's somethingthat you feel kind of like I
don't know, it's a maybe there'ssomething there, then then you
(36:22):
know, look into it.
It's it's not for everybody forsure, but it's a different.
It's definitely a different wayof looking at health care and
and it's something to that,sometimes people feel like, well
, you know, I'm going to loseall of my skills or whatever if
I'm doing that.
And I mean there are somethings that you know that we
(36:44):
don't do, obviously, in hospice,that we would be doing in a
hospital.
But I also realized one day,because I used to, you know,
kind of think well, you knowthat there's so much thought
about, you know people who workin hospitals.
They're the.
When you say you're a nurse,you know it's like, oh well,
what hospital do you work at?
It's like you know most nursesdon't work in hospitals, but
that's OK, but it's.
(37:04):
But it's when you're out withsomebody in the middle of the
night, you have what's availablein the home and you know, maybe
some a catheter and some otherrandom supplies you know basic
wound care supplies in your carand there's something going on.
I mean you've got to, you'vegot to pull out the MacGyver
stops and figure out you knowhow am I going to, how am I
(37:26):
going to manage this, and butthat's one of the things that's
kind of that's kind of fun aboutit if you're wired that way.
Ashley (37:33):
The creativity there Absolutely.
And I'm so glad you mentionedjust knowing your own innate
gifts too, because I do think,and of course I laughed
hysterically when you said, well, I must not care, because, like
, that's just the perfect answerto when people ask you about
knowing, knowing your innategifts will.
It's not to say that if youdon't have those gifts you won't
do well in hospice, but it just, god, it makes the road so much
(37:55):
easier.
You know, if you are the personthat can emote with a patient,
that can sit there and feel whatthey're feeling, because the
good Lord knows, when I am thatpatient, I would like to have a
provider sitting there with mesaying you know, I understand.
Jenny Lytle (38:11):
I feel.
Ashley (38:11):
I feel that you know, I don't want somebody who's been
heartened by their life inmedicine just kind of staring at
me, watching, watching me cryRight Right.
I so appreciate it.
Jenny, you mentioned a coupleof places where we could find
you.
Where can we find you if we arelooking for more information or
just to learn more about thisincredible field?
Jenny Lytle (38:32):
Sure.
So if you go to Jenny Lytlecom,that's, that's where you can.
Everything's attached there.
But you can see you can get thefree copy of my book.
You can see other things that Ihave to offer.
I do some blogging.
I've got a newsletter thatactually comes out three times a
week that that just really goesinto very simple, practical
(38:53):
tips for for being able to fitin self-care and stress relief
into busy lives.
Ashley (38:58):
Fabulous, Jenny.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for spending the timeand sharing your story with us
on Shadow Me Next.
I appreciate you.
Jenny Lytle (39:05):
Thank you so much, Ashley.
I appreciate the time.
Ashley (39:08):
Thank you so very much for listening to this episode of
Shadow Me Next.
If you liked this episode or ifyou think it could be useful
for a friend, please subscribeand invite them to join us next
Monday, as always.
If you have any questions, letme know on Facebook or Instagram
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