March 3, 2025 • 58 mins
What does it really mean to live your truth? It’s a phrase we hear often, but rarely define. Is it about being your most authentic self? Seeing the world clearly and finding your place in it? Or is it something deeper?
Today on Shaping Freedom, we’re diving into this question with Emmy award-winning filmmaker, writer, professor, and Moth Grand Slam champion Phil Branch. His work sits at the intersection of identity, race, and media representation, all with a focus on truth-telling.
Phil will take us on the journey of creating the highly acclaimed Searching for Shinnequa, exploring our biases, how they shape us, and what it truly means to live your truth in a post-truth world.
This is Shaping Freedom.
Today on Shaping Freedom, we’re diving into this question with Emmy award-winning filmmaker, writer, professor, and Moth Grand Slam champion Phil Branch. His work sits at the intersection of identity, race, and media representation, all with a focus on truth-telling.
Phil will take us on the journey of creating the highly acclaimed Searching for Shinnequa, exploring our biases, how they shape us, and what it truly means to live your truth in a post-truth world.
This is Shaping Freedom.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
I think we waited too all to have this wake up,
even before we had some political divide. What we should
have learned from how we resent technology was that we
can't keep storing our thoughts, our dreams, our research, our
histories for our devices.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome to the Shaping Freedom Podcast, where we dive into
conversations that inspire personal growth, transformation, and clarity and challenging times.
I'm your host, Lysan Bosquiat. Today I am honored to
sit down with someone who truly understands the power of
storytelling not just as a form of entertainment, but as
(00:51):
a tool for self definition, resistance, and cultural transformation. Phil
Branch is an Emmy award winning filmmaker, writer, professor, and
Moth Grand Slam champion whose work sits at the intersection
of identity, race, and media representation. Through his acclaimed documentary
(01:14):
Searching for Shaniqua, Phil sparked a necessary conversation about the
biases attached to names and the deeper implications of how
society categorizes people. As a professor at Gucher College, he
teaches students how media shapes our perceptions of race and
culture at a time when those narratives are being both
(01:36):
challenged and manipulated, and as a storyteller, he helps people
take ownership of their lived experiences, transforming personal truths into
powerful tools for connection and change. But in addition to
all of this, Phil is also a father, a husband,
and a human navigating the very same political and cultural
(01:57):
landscape as the rest of us. Today, we're diving into
how we can sharpen our media literacy, how we can
reclaim our personal narratives and use storytelling as a way
to create meaningful impact in our daily lives. Thank you
for getting ready to create the space with me and welcome.
(02:25):
I took a deep dive into your work and I
actually watched your documentary recently and it brought up so
many things for me that I'd like to talk a
little bit about. But before we get into that, I'd
(02:47):
love to know in your own journey, what stories did
you have to unlearn or reclaim in order to become
the person you are today.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Wow, that question has been of mind for me as
of late. I'm writing a memoir which has taking shape
in a way that I hadn't expected it to, which
is what happens when you write, and it's starting in
one place where I thought I was just kind of
talking about my own identity and how I became who
(03:18):
I've become now through my experiences, and it then turned
to something where I'm looking at my relationship to myself
and how I viewed myself through the eyes of other people.
And in the book, the primary relationship that I'm dealing
with is my father, and I'm thinking about the ways
(03:39):
in which I thought I had to exist in the
world because of how he saw me. And you know,
I saw him as a you know, masculine man who
has served in a military and played football. Now with
this small kid who I read and wasn't necessarily athletic
in the ways that he was. And when I got
(04:02):
through a few of the chapters, when I began to
realize is that one of the things that I had
to learn was that I had to stop looking for
self in other people's reflection. You know. So I'm looking
at my mother to see how she approves what I'm doing,
to know if I'm doing a good job, instead of
(04:23):
thinking about how I feel about what I'm doing. I'm
looking at my dad, looking at his response to me,
as opposed to ever sitting down with myself and say
how do I feel about how I'm moving through the world.
So one of the things that I've had to unlearned
is to look, is to stop looking at other people's
responses to me first, and to kind of sit with
(04:45):
myself a little bit more, and to see how I
feel about choices that I'm making and the things that
I'm doing. That is a big thing that I've had
to learn over the years, And to be okay with
being a big one for me, being okay with knowing
the truth about a thing and not telling or saying
(05:06):
what that truth is because not everybody can handle it.
Because I used to be a person who knew it
and would say it because I thought everyone wants to know.
But now I'm comfortable with knowing what I know without
always telling people that I know it. Well.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I share some of some of what you're talking about
in that I too, and I think many of us,
you know, we grow up around people who have their
own ideals and their own filters through which they see
us and themselves and the world, and we quite naturally
(05:41):
step into the world with carrying all of that. How
does a person know when the narrative that you're being
taught isn't really yours or doesn't really work for you,
or I guess, how did you know?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
For me? There was a point when I was and
you learned different things at different stages, right, That's what
I know. At my big age now versus at thirteen
is different, but it was a similar response to the world.
I remember being in high school. I had skipped a
grade A sale from school, doingly well on standardized tests
and all the stuff. Then I got to high school
(06:26):
and I realized I had become this kid who was
supposed to be smart, who was supposed to know all
the answers, was supposed to be a certain kind of way,
And I began to resist that that notion. Not that
I didn't want to be smart, but I felt like
I was more complex than getting good grades. And because
I was seeing as smart and quiet, everyone thought I
(06:50):
was okay. So I started to think about who did
I want to be. Was it my goal to get
straight a's or was it my goal to being clubs
and to participate in school life and to hang out,
to grow socially, to do all those things. And I
think I chose in some ways to be as a
(07:12):
protest to not get the straight. A's like I have
been doing to resist some of the push because it
felt like while I enjoyed knowledge, I did not enjoy
the expectation that I'd be a certain kind of way
without anybody, Like maybe I would have excelled in other things,
(07:33):
but no one invested in that with me. It was like, Oh,
he's smart, We're gonna here's a new set of encyclopedias
for which I love because I've read them. But you know,
maybe a pair of track shoes and take me out
to the to the track because I like to run too.
So like it was this thing where I started to
feel in my body and I can't explain that. You
just know, like, hey, I've gone too far down a
(07:56):
lane and this is not exactly where I want to be.
And I now that I'm actually looking back at my
life and writing about it, I can see all these
little workers where I have at some point said, wait
a minute, this isn't me, and in whatever small way
try to pull back and try to get on the
path that is more in line with what I thought
(08:19):
that I was. Because I mean to be honest, you
don't really know at first, because you're being told who
you are, you know, your parents possibly have chosen a religion,
you live in a certain neighborhood. There are certain food
aesthetics and cultural esthetics that you're just supposed to latch onto.
And then for most people, they're happy just being that
(08:39):
thing that was kind of put on them. They're fine
with it, they live it, and they don't question it.
I wasn't that person, and so I like to question,
and I decided what would it be like to be
filled m And you pay a price for that when
(09:00):
you decide that you pay it. There's a cost for
choosing to be yourself, to be an individual. Wow, I
think it's worth it.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, It's an investment for sure, and it can be
a very heavy price to pay. You know, we have,
as I mentioned, some similarities, and I'm listening to you,
listening to you talk, and it's like I'm hearing myself
through your words and through your sharing of your experience
in that I was raised by a father who was
(09:35):
very very powerful man and had very strong ideas about
what success looked like. And there was this polarity, right,
It's like either you succeed or you fail, and the
success was determined by going down a particular path you know,
getting good grades, going to college, picking a white collar profession,
(10:03):
and that is how success was defined. And I also
was a kid who was really really smart, and I
did very well on standardized tests without a lot of preparation.
I just did and what I'm And I actually rebelled
as well in high school because and I remember my,
(10:26):
you know, my, my, My conversation with myself was like,
you don't understand who I am, right, And I didn't
understand who I was fully, but I there was a
conflict between what was expected from and of me and
how I felt best in the skin of who you know,
(10:49):
who I am and who I was. Uh, And so
I kind of veered off in another direction and actually
went so far as to go into corporate and to
try to kind of please what his view was, and
then eventually found that I was living in parts and
(11:12):
needed to kind of rEFInd myself. And I think that
the story you shared and my experience, those are experiences
that a lot of people, or a certain group of people,
I think, experience. I think there are some folks for
whom that provide structure and a plan and can be
(11:33):
very comforting, but for others it can be a real challenge.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, that idea of veering golf and finding that. Okay,
I made these choices, and I wasn't in the park,
but I was sitting there. And at one point, you know,
I don't know how many bills are getting paid. I
don't know, you know, I don't know where I want
to live, and maybe a friend, you know, let me
(11:59):
see what couch. This is the years I was living
in la in my early twenties, trying to make it
because I believe I could, and and just feeling like
there was still no place else i'd rather be, you know,
you know, scrounging for coy so I could go by
a ninety nine cent chicken sandwich at Burger King, and
(12:23):
knowing there's a full refrigerator at home waiting for me
in New Jersey. If I chose to move back, I'm
not going back because this I think that was supposed
to be here. Yeah, even if I'm hungry.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, it's wow. That is that is wow.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I grew up in an upper middle class home in
a brownstone in Brooklyn, and I had not before. You know,
at that point, I hadn't felt as free as I
felt while I was just roaming around, you know, staying
at friends homes and and knowing knowing that I could
(13:00):
go home and I would be allowed home, and that
life was different, but there was something else that I needed.
What were you? Why did you come? Two questions? Actually,
where in New Jersey did you grow up? And secondly,
why what were you searching for? In la?
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I grew up in Newark, in Irvington, New Jersey, born
in Orange Hospital. I spent my first years of Newark.
We lived in Elizabeth for a little while, and my
last years there were in Irvington when I was in
(13:43):
high school. But I went to high school in East
art Catholic High School at about three hundred kids in
a most small school that is no longer in existence
because those schools struggled to stay aflote. But you know,
I loved it and I had a really interesting in
life there too, because I grew up in what somebody
(14:04):
would call and I don't use this term, but people
would call the hood, you know, But it wasn't. I mean,
people it was fine, like it wasn't when you see
the movies, and people were just hardworking. It just it
was just what it was, you know. But within that,
you know, I could recognize that I was lucky in
(14:27):
many ways that I had, you know, for a time,
having both of my parents together, you know, were married
and both employed, doing pretty well, and had access to
some resources. So like when when I got older and
they decided, hey, we don't know if the public school
is the right fit, they were able to put me
into Catholic schools, you know. So I lived this life
(14:49):
where like, I have friends who could have that choice
made for them, and also had friends who whose parents
were scratching and just trying to survive the day. And
I think that was really good for me to see
because I always understood that there were different ways you
can go, you know, and that it required different things
of you to be able to live a life that
(15:12):
maybe that you're dreaming of. And I don't know why,
but I always wanted to be out for where I was.
I was an avid reader. I knew the world was
bigger than my neighborhood. I watched a lot of TV,
as many Latchkey kids did, and the world just seemed
so big and I wanted to see it. So when
(15:36):
I went to college, I went to Hampton kind of
blast loved that experience and when it was time to leave.
I didn't have a job. I didn't want a corporate job.
I wanted to work in the industry. I wanted to
just be creative. And I had spent all this money
well my mother had on touris shit and I am
a job, And I bought a one way ticket to
(15:57):
La because I felt like the life that I wanted
was waiting for me there. And if I'm being honest,
this is going to be in a book, so I
can't go too far. I think I needed to be
away as far away as possible from the life I
had built to kind of maybe start a fresh flook.
So La seemed like a perfect place. It was just
someplace I had envisioned my whole life, never been just
(16:22):
that imaginary thing that you think about when you think
about dreams. And as soon as I could go, I went.
I had nothing, I had no job, I had no
place to live. I just moved. Wow.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
You know, people are often uncomfortable with truth tellers, and
you've shared how you've learned how to manage the way
that you navigate that gift. Because I think being a
truth teller is a gift, and I also believe that
(16:58):
it comes with the requirement that you learn how to
hone it and how to wield it. And it's clear
that you've done that sometimes by not telling the truth
when you see it. What advice do you have for
others who may be grappling with being a truth teller
(17:22):
in their own environments.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
This is something that comes up a lot in my life,
this idea of not only truth, but what is truth? Right.
When I was in my early twenties or mid twenties,
I worked for the National Enquiry for a bit.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Oh wow, it was a blast. That's a blast in
the past.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Was making money, had an office for we were assessant
boulevard a credit card. I'm a baby, I'm just out
of college, you know, American Express Card and Spiths County.
And I learned that these people were really working hard
to get these stories. It wasn't just sitting around a
desk making up things. So I got this story about
(18:05):
an actress and it was true. I had done the reporting,
I had gone to do the interviews, and there was
something about their family, there being some kind of division
in their family. So I called my mom and I
send her copy of the articles, a front paid story,
and she wasn't really happy about it, and I asked her,
(18:27):
you know, I thought I had made so much more
money whenever you got a front pay story, got I
can extra five hundred to two thousand dollars sometimes for
a front paid story. So I'm excited, you know, I'm
twenty two, twenty three. I'm like, wow, I'm rich. So
my mother said, I don't know if I like this,
and I said why and she said, well, you know,
(18:50):
I know it's true because I know what you do
now I understand what the Inquirer is. Now. I know
that you're working. I know that you interviewed these people.
I know that this is you sourced it you ever
to in journal. I know you did the work, but
is it something that everyone needs to know? And she said,
you know, we have things in our family and you're
working to become this person, Like, do you want everything
(19:13):
that has ever happened within your family public? Because it's true?
You know? Is it okay? Because it's true. I'm not
one of those people, she said, who doesn't believe the
inquire is telling you know the truth, because I think
a lot of times they are. I didn't know that before,
but now I do because I have that access to
relationship with you. But then her question became was but
(19:35):
is that truth necessary for everybody? And it was such
an impactful moment for me because I had spent so
much time just proving people's belief that what we were
doing was telling lies all the time. I was like, no,
I actually went here and here are my sources that
I had not really been thinking about whether or not
it was anybody's rights to know a thing. So that
(19:59):
question her change how I move within the organization, and
I pulled away and means now I still that we're
one of the best experiences of my life. I met
some amazing people, but I began to really think about
what I was doing and what I was contributing to
the world. And so what I often think about when
(20:20):
people will talk about truth telling is where what is
the value of you telling that truth? Speaking that truth?
You know? Is it something that the world needs, that
your community needs, that you need? And I often ask
people if what they're speaking is truth or whatever, or
(20:41):
if it's just what's in their head, you know, you know,
because sometimes people just get to talk and saying whatever
they're thinking and say, well, I'm a truth teller. You
might just be being mean at this moment because an
emotional reaction to a thing. Yeah, And that's the truth
is that you're mad at me right now? Right. And
(21:01):
but the biggest advice, I think, the thing I think
about for myself is what's the value? Yeah? And you know,
writing a memoir, I have this heavy burden on myself
to not only tell the truth, but to think about
the impact I'm having on these supporting characters who have
been part of my life. So which stories do I tell?
(21:23):
How do I tell theook? And which things are I'm
willing to be said that I know may possibly cause
some discomfort. And if I want to do that, what's
the greater good that? You know?
Speaker 3 (21:38):
What is the purpose? What is the value?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah? I think it's also intention, you know, what is
a person's intention in speaking this truth? You know on
air quotes? Because you're absolutely right, and I'm glad that
we continue to talk about that topic of truth telling,
because that's the other side of it, you know, the
one side is, Yeah, there's things that I can say
(22:14):
because I see them, But why do I want to
say them? And what's the benefit? What's the consequence of that?
Is it to make the person. What is my intended consequence?
Is it to make the person feel badly? Is it
to hurt the person because I feel hurt by them,
(22:34):
you know? And I think that now, in the day
of social media and everyone kind of wanting to speak
the truth, there is a lot of that. There's a
lot of emotional sparring that takes place, and a lot
of opinions that are given about people, especially people who
(22:55):
are in the public eye, that don't really take into
account that there's a human on the other end of
that opinion.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
I'm not ready for that piece of it, you know.
I've already had people who I'm working with say to me,
you know, like, once this book comes out and we're
doing publicity, you'd be kind of pushing further out to
that public sphere.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
And I've always loved to write, and maybe when I
was young, I wanted to be famous. Maybe maybe, But
now I don't necessarily I want to be working. But
somewhere halfway through the book, I realized, Oh, they're going
to spend money to promote this thing, and they're going
to put me in front of They're going to do
(23:41):
their jobs, and that means that I have to you know,
looking at my friends who are authors, who are public figures,
I'm like, oh, they have to show up and be
you know, and be on and they have people know
them when they walk into spaces, and that's I'm not
I wouldn't complain about having that level of success, but
I've had to adjust my brain and start thinking about
(24:05):
now people get to speak about me, you know, in
the ways that you know, I've heard discourse around other
authors and their intentions and their writing. And I think
because I've been doing this work so long as a
storyteller on the stage where I have had to use
other people as part of my story, and I've had
to do it responsibly, and I've had to have those
(24:26):
conversations with family and friends about their usage in my stories,
that I understand a little bit what that may feel like.
And I'm kind of bracing myself for other people's truths
about who I am or how they see me in
my work. And I think knowing that it kind of
circles around back to you as well, kind of makes
(24:49):
me a little bit more responsible about how I deal
with other people.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, And I think that taking that responsibility on or
understanding and acknowledging that speaking the truth is as much
about telling a story as it is about also understanding
that there are other people involved in that You have
a responsibility to at least engage them in what's happening,
(25:17):
or share with them what it is that you have
to say, even if it doesn't feel so good to them.
My family's story is an interesting one, and I've had
people ask questions that in the beginning I felt slightly
(25:37):
offended by just because they were asking the question. It
had nothing to do with the answer. It was just like,
why are you asking that?
Speaker 1 (25:44):
You know?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
And I began to pose the question back to the person,
you know, what was your childhood? Like? How is your
you know, what happened in your family? Are your parents
together or divorced?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Is that? Like?
Speaker 2 (26:01):
And uh? With love, but just with a slight kind
of pushback to confront and to give the person the
opportunity to think about what they were asking of another
human being and the the the the delicate nature of
some of those questions. I would imagine though, that with
(26:23):
your with the experience that you've had in telling stories,
that I think you'll be okay with the discourse around
your book. You'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I think the hardest probably family. A lot of my
stories about family and relationships, and I think they're bracing themselves.
They have no idea what I want to say. You
know that I talk openly, so I think they're I
think they're a little nervous, but I think they know
(26:56):
I love them enough. That is not I'm not going
to be rightless, you know, with them or any story
that would involve them, even if it's not the most
favorable moment or story. I'm still not going to be disrespectful.
I wanted to go back. You've mentioned the social media piece,
(27:18):
and I think this is really important. Truth is really
interesting now for me because I think it gets confusing.
So a couple of years ago, one of my students
that I taught college and I had students who were
then going into the world doing jobs in media where
they everyone was a brand now and I worked in
(27:38):
marketing and all that stuff. But then now everyone is
a brand, and you know, the whole thing in one
of my former students, who I really respect, brilliant, brilliant,
brilliant person. Then this might have been around twenty twelve,
twenty thirteen. People will just really start and then get
(28:00):
into Twitter and Instagram and sort of how they presented
themselves into the world certain kind of ways. And what
didn't make sense to me was this presenting things that
looked like someone caught you on camera, but really you've
set up a mic, a light of this, of that,
(28:20):
and then you're pondering something with a beverage and you know,
you're thinking about I was like, that's not true. Now,
that's a photoshoot to me. And I remember getting into
this discourse with this student former student who they felt
offended a little bit by my question around is this
(28:42):
real or performative? Right, So we had a discourse around that.
But now fast forward a decade later or so, everything's that,
everything's you know, a.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Setup many things.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
You know, like, yeah, much of it is, you know,
crying on camera, but you've set up the camera and
posted it. That. I believe truth has changed that. I
think that is real to people now. That is now true.
That is now like, that is now how we communicate.
(29:21):
That is now how we dialogue. So what might have
looked false ten years ago now becomes a way that
people communicate. And it's tricky for me in the sense
that as somebody who has studied literature, who has studied film,
who analyzes conversation and people. That intention becomes really hard
(29:47):
for me when I'm looking at a lot of what
I see, and not even just content creators, but just
keep because not all of it is for entertainment. It's
meant to be real life, or to be news, or
to be so that intention piece it is so critical
for me in the social media space, and that's why
we're consuming so many things. It's like, what was your
(30:09):
intention to get more lots? What was your intention to
tell this story, to say this thing? And I think
about that a lot. Let's say, when I see teachers
in classrooms doing really clever things with their students, and
I wonder is this for the student? So I have
a hard time sometimes parsing out I feel like, everybody, Oh,
(30:33):
this is really fun. That's the best teacher because she's
you know, pop locking with her students and it's great,
and I'm going it also feels narcissistic and performative, and
I struggle, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Is it a scene in a play or is this
a learning experience that will send the students off with
more than they had when they walked.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
In the room. Yeah, and see, so much of that
now that you know, I've stopped. I'm not teaching right now.
After COVID, I just kind of I unplugged. It was
such a hard time, but I saw a lot of
no one knew what was real or what wasn't anymore,
(31:18):
and it was really hard for students to distinguish. And yeah,
it's changing, you know. And I have to work with
that with my kids now because they'll see something and
they think, because they saw it on YouTube, that is true,
and I have to teach them though that's just somebody
with a camera. Yes, you don't know, and you have
(31:40):
to start that early. You know. It's scary a little bit.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
It is a little scary. But I think that one
of the things that I was so excited about as
I looked into what you've done and who you are
and how you shared and contributed, is that you really
have this. You have the storytelling downpact, and you seem
(32:08):
to understand that we are here writing a story, whether
we're aware of it or not, and we are a
character in a story about our world, and that we
have the ability to create that character and recreate that
(32:29):
character in a way that is best for us or
in a way that best suits who we are what
we want in the moment. And I think that's a
very powerful thing to have and to realize and recognize
about who you are in the world. Did you always
(32:51):
know that about yourself or about the way this thing?
This scene because it's all a scene, right, I mean
even right now, right because I'm doing this, you know, like, yeah,
it's all a scene.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
We are.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
This is a scene that you would that you and
I are in, that we've created. Ryan is behind the camera,
Billy sitting back there, Yvette's you know where she is
watching Parkers somewhere, and we are creating a space together.
And I think that one of the things that I
really feel drawn to about you is that you get
(33:31):
it so we can create in this moment whatever it
is that we choose to. But it's not just about
a podcast episode or an author and a filmmaker. It's
the person who goes to the grocery store. It's the
person who teaches children or adults. It's all of us
(33:52):
have this ability to write a story and tell the
coroach truth and what are we doing like that? And
you seem to really understand that.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
I think, having having had students you know, come to
me and you know, outside of the classroom setting, it's say,
you know that one day when you mentioned X, Y,
and Z, which is totally not related to the content
material necessarily, but me mentioning I have to leave early
because it's about to spell and I have my babies
(34:31):
are going to get out of daycare and someone has
to be there, and you know, my husband is in Florida.
At a conference, I had students come to me and say,
you know, I'm not out, and just hearing you talk
about having kids and a husband is really cool to me.
(34:52):
Thanks for just just thanks for giving us that. And
I wasn't really thinking about an impact. You know that's necessarily,
but I will say that I don't know that I
had any professors that looked like me, who lived the
kind of life that I had openly. And it became
clear to me that just my showing up was a
(35:13):
story for some of these students who who hadn't had
either black professors, who hadn't had openly gay professors, who
hadn't had professors who looked like them, who had families.
And these students are now in their thirties and you know,
late twenties and they're still reaching out instead to be
(35:34):
pictures of their families or tell me about their accomplishments
because they saw something beyond course content. And I do
think that is narrative. It is seam seting making people
feel comfortable in bringing yourself into the space because if
you're going to you know, especially as a writing professor
and professor, you have to be human to exchange these
(35:55):
ideas and really get to the to really get to material.
And when I grew up, you know in Jersey, family
would say, you know, it's funny now because I'm literally
doing this thing. Something would happen crazy at a family
function over dinner, and someone would stand up and say,
(36:18):
is this is this going to be in the book?
And look at me? Is this going to be a team?
I'm fifteen? Is this going to be in the book?
And here I am literally writing the book? And it's
funny to them in some ways. So whenever I was
(36:38):
admitting then was signaling to them that you know that
not only that I was writer, but that I was
a storyteller of in some capacity. But I think that
comes from I did something that was really one of
my first stories on stage was about this I did
(36:58):
something that was really rare. I think a lot of
black families is that I just talked. I openly talked
about things, you know, like I asked questions, and that
isn't always welcome, or even if it's welcome, it is
I because so much is Hell's.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Hell tight in secret?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, in secret? And here I come in the room, Grandma,
you know so my oldest my youngest uncle is only
seven years older than me. Who was the you know, like,
where's you know? Help me do the math? And everyone's like,
who asked that question? Me? Because I'm wondering where everybody
(37:44):
came from and I've always been there for I like
to piece thing. I like to know where I am.
And I think that's what storytelling me and communicating is
it kind of situates you so you know where you are.
My life has gotten exponitionally better because of me writing
and telling me stories. Because now when I walk into
(38:04):
rooms with old friends, people who maybe have not met me,
but they've seen some of my work, they've already decided
a little bit of what they think about me, and
it's all, you know, much of it's on the table.
So I don't have to do a lot of that
pre work that I used to have to do with
people in some cases, and it's just sort of changed
(38:27):
my life.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah, I think that people see who you are even
before sometimes even before you do. And that is the
reason why a family can at a dinner table turn
around and look at a fifteen year old young man
and know that he is the storyteller. And I think
that for those folks who are listening, who I hope
(38:51):
now understand that we are all telling a story, and
we're all characters in someone's story. The more that we're
able to look to the left and right of us,
and ahead and behind us, and to be aware of
who we are in the story, the better, the more
(39:12):
power we actually have, and the more empowered our families,
because we understand that it's not just about us in
that moment, in that particular event, but it's about how
we are contributing to the overarching story of a group
of people and a community and a world and a city.
And I think that if more of us took the
(39:34):
time to really recognize and realize that and respect it,
we could get moving into the directions that we really
want to be in.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
You know, I host a storytelling festival this will be
my second year doing it. This is coming by, and
you know something that we to France it just getting
on stage and telling stories has now become a little
scary for people because people tell our kind of stories
about family, about sensuality, about gender, about and I do.
(40:10):
I have been feeling like I wonder what the world
looks like for the next couple of years getting on stage,
and if theaters are going to feel scared with all
their grant money coming in for wherever it's coming in,
to keep allowing us to get on stage just do
whatever we want to do. I just thought it was
my own anxiety, just kind of getting ahead of myself.
And I ended up talking to a producer last week
(40:32):
about the festival which is coming up, and asked if
she wanted to make me do something later on another
day and she said, I actually it. Maybe I'm crazy,
she said, but I'm actually not certain we'll be able
to do this anymore. She goes, I've gotten to a
place where I worried that storytelling is going to be
(40:54):
in theaters are going to be so scared of putting
out you know work that you know now just set
we used to see normal, but will become something else
in it coming much because I because I haven't put
anything on my calendar past May, because I'm not quite
sure what kind of country we're going to get in
(41:15):
the next couple of months. And it was really striking
at this thing that I always thought was powerful, now
maybe even more important because of the erasure that may
happen because people are afraid of pushback around sort of
very people's voices.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
That was going to be one of my questions to you,
and that is, with what's happening in the cultural landscape
and societal landscape that we're living in, what is your
advice to other storytellers in whatever capacity, Because the other
part of it is that history erased goes away, you know,
(42:16):
So there is a chapter here, and there's a chapter
that we're all living through. What does one do under
these circumstances. I'd love to hear your voice in that.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
I think we waited too long to have this wake up,
even before we had sort of political divide. What we
should have learned from how reusing technology was that you
can't keep storing our thoughts, our dreams, our research, our
histories or devices and on platforms that change every three
(42:53):
minutes and collecting this that collect us that you don't
have devices to open them up anymore. That we were
already losing history because of that, having forty thousand photos
on your phone that your kids want to be able
to access to see themselves when they're fifteen to fifty,
(43:15):
Like you know, we were already losing right the whole
notion of a black Twitter and all these black spaces.
You can't have a black Twitter in a space that
you don't own, not in any real way. So when
people are lamenting you, you know about who's running what
(43:38):
they've always been running yet. So we've built dreams, hopes,
empires on top of platforms and places that didn't belong
to us. And now we're going what we're supposed to do.
And I think at some point we have to decide
if we want to go perform in a hole in
the wall and tell stories like I did for many years.
(44:01):
And that's how I cut my teeth and learned how
to write. It's how I was able to get to
the place I am now. I didn't need anybody's grant money,
I didn't need anybody's anything. I knocked on the door into
someone and say Okay, enough, let me here. Here's a stage.
You know, I'll give you a Sunday afternoon or whatever.
I'll take it, you know. And but it's yours. It's
(44:24):
yours enough. And I think your story belongs to you.
As long as you can write, you can produce it,
as long as you you have a phone, you can
record it. I had a podcast for a couple of
years during the pandemic that I love doing. The audience
for that was crazy, Like I was recording that in
bed on my phone, just random thoughts about what was
(44:46):
going on, and it blew up. I was at home.
I didn't. I didn't. I didn't go into a studio
because I didn't. I couldn't, you know. But I had
some things to say. And I think that's always been
my advice to do this is use what you have
to do what you need to do, and don't be
(45:06):
completely dependent on things that require too many gatekeepers, you know,
because then you'll wait forever. Now I say that my
book is with a major publishing companies with proper columns mhm.
But most of my work is fine. Most of my
work has been independent work. I made a conscious choice
(45:31):
to what the book to be someplace else proper columns
at pressed that I wanted to. I wanted help with
that because I felt like I wanted it to reach
as many people as possible to then provide me the
ability to still do independent work. You know. But I think,
I think, as a storytelling, your job is to tell
(45:52):
stories and not wait for people to give you permission.
And that's just been my my, my biggest advice, you know.
And I had to learn that myself living in LA.
It's all about being chosen. So I learned a lot
in LA. I had some amazing experiences. I mean, you know,
I just it was. It was a great place for
(46:14):
me to learn. I knew the industry, what to film school, like,
I did the whole thing. But I also waited too
long for other people to say, it's your turn.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
You have to choose yourself.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Yeah, And I didn't get that until I left LA
and I started creating because I felt like it for
you know. And all of a sudden, I'm flying back
and forth to LA and to other places to do
work based on work that I'm creating on the East coast,
you know, wherever I am. And it was a big
(46:47):
wake up off for me to remind myself. You know,
you can't do all the things you want to do alone,
but there's something there as many things you can do.
You need a couple of good friends sometimes to help
you with the mic, somebody with some talent with the camera,
and sometimes you don't need that just to get started.
You just need to figure out go on Google or
figure it out or someplace. I don't know if you're
(47:08):
still using Google, but I can go someplace and figure
it out.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
I sit here today during this conversation as a student you.
I've gotten so many gems out of this conversation with you,
and before you go, I want to tell you what
some of them are. One is, just do it, say
(47:33):
what you have to say. The second is that we're
all storytellers, and I think as long as you're a human,
you actually are a storyteller again, whether you realize it
or not. And there's a way. Number three is there's
a way to tell the truth with grace and respect
(47:55):
and kindness and patience for the human experience and for
where people are as they evolve or not. I feel
very inspired by you, and I'm really glad that we've
had a chance to connect. And I look forward and
hope that we can chat some more when your book
(48:18):
comes out, because I want to talk about that book
I had heard about. It's interesting. Just very recently I
heard about Moth for the first time, and so I
was very excited when I read through your history and
saw that you have spent a lot of time on
(48:39):
that stage, crafting, honing your craft. How can we support you?
Speaker 1 (48:47):
Oh, you know, I went to a conference last week
and that was one of the questions that one of
the moderators asked us to think about all this sort
of whole wellness leadership. Say that I was able to
go to at the last minute, and that has been
a struggle for me. The idea of and this is this.
(49:09):
We can go on forever about why, but how to
receive and what to even ask for? You know. So
for me as a writer, as an artist, I think
it is just go to my website and then that's
things come up and you know, but I'm not big
on social media. I mean, I use it. I'm not
like one hundred years old. I use it. But for me,
it is conversations like this are great for me because
(49:31):
they also make me think. And your voice is amazing
and you know, and just they just make me think
and and and in process even how I'm moving through
the world and everythink some things. But really for me
right now, it is I am at a place where
I am figuring out what I need. That is probably
(49:53):
the most honest answer. I'm figuring that out now, I find.
So I'm listening to your introduction, hearing all these in
me and all that stuff, and I'm just like, it
doesn't even feel like that's me. You know, I'm exhausted.
I have to tell you, I'm exhausted and I spent
And when I walked away from my conference last year
(50:17):
this last week is that my goal for the next
year is to figure out they had this term called
the energy gap, was to figure out where my ambition
and work was in conflict with sort of time and
what I really have to do, like raise my kids
and things like that, because I can't run on empty
(50:43):
you know. You know, I've been a solo for the
most part. I mean, I need people for my films,
but you know, I work by myself. So my big
plan for the year to finish this book and then
really think about how to call run the resources and
the public who has been really supportive of support of
my work, how to really call on them in a
(51:03):
way that is meaningful and right now to be on
this punch of so no, because I'm constantly what's the
next thing I have to.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Do, getting to the next thing, telling the next story,
telling a different version of the story. I am going
to boldly ask request that we chat again. I believe
that you and I could talk for hours. There are
so many things that I wanted to say, but I'm like,
(51:33):
you can't do that because you can't do that right
now because we'll be sitting here for three hours and
that's not going to work today. But I would love,
love Phil if you would come back once your book
is done so that we can chat a bit about that.
And I'd love to start that conversation with hearing what
(51:57):
you need and how we can support you, because I
think that when we get more comfortable with that, and
I have struggle with that throughout my life, I'm getting better.
I'm much better today. But when we learn how to
ask for what we need, it opens up a door
(52:17):
to our relationship with ourselves, because it means that we
have acknowledged our true value, our internal worth and value
and for the audience. There were three things from searching
for Shaniqua that I'd love to share really quickly, And
if you can just really, really quickly speak to these
(52:41):
three things, I'd really appreciate it. And these are three
things that I noticed. One was that Schandrika liked her
name until she was five years old, until she got
to school, and until school told her and taught her
to disc like her name. The second was a statement
(53:04):
that someone made, I don't remember who I know, you
do that America makes you choose between success and culture,
and that was so profound to me. And the third
was there was a conversation I think it was a
book club, and someone in that group made a statement
about a disparaging statement, respectfully about someone naming their child Unity.
(53:33):
And what I thought about when I heard that was
how people have meaning that they apply to a name,
and how that then how people believe that they then
have the right to grade that and rate that, And
(53:56):
I just felt that, coming from an audience that was black,
that it was just an unfortunate statement. I am standing
for a world where people are allowed to just be,
to be who you are, and to be seen and
(54:19):
respected and loved and welcomed based on who they actually
are versus the layers and layers of lens and filter
that we seem to have to go through.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
One thing I learned doing the screening tour for Shniga
after Wese and did the festivals. Oh, I have kids now,
so that five year old piece really is striking to
me because you see how much your kids start to
change because other kids say things to them and teachers.
So we have been very intentional about shoring our kids
(54:56):
up as much as possible so that we give them
something that then when they walk into those situations that
they have a little bit more sort of you know,
protection from, they won't be immune to it, but they'll have,
you know, some steadiness because we've given them that.
Speaker 2 (55:15):
And they'll be filled up. They're filled up.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
Yeah. Yeah, we were very intentional about that. But we
were on the screening tour and we were at we
were in Harlem, and the discussion from every stop was
names have meaning. You know, even if you know what
they are. You know that person who named their kid
(55:37):
you Nikki or whatever, they they had a MENI and
we shouldn't disparage And Shaniqua McClendon, who is amazing. She's
the one that was doing the stuff with the you know, Thomas,
the White House and all the things, the main Shaniqua
in the film. We were in the panel and she said,
you know what, I don't think my name has to
(55:58):
have a meeting. My parents were young. They liked how
it sounded. End of story, you know, she goes, Everyone
in here is like trying to give me grace because
you know your mom and your parents. You know there
was meaning for the name, so we shouldn't judge. She goes,
I don't know that it was. It sounded pretty Her
(56:20):
point was when you meet a woman named Lisa, you know,
did you ask her what Lisa means? Or Jin or
KB she so don't ask me what Shneka means. Is
no different than those names in the room, just kind
of you know, she goes, I know it's with good intention,
but no one's asking anybody what Jackie means. You know,
(56:42):
and those days may all have meanings, but we're not
walking around thinking about it. And it changed the discourse
of how we talked about the film and the screenings.
I think there are meanings for a lot of people
who give those names, but mostly like you said, just
for the most part, lead people alone. Yeah, you know,
let them be. You know, so some people have a
(57:04):
really hard time with that, you know.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
I encourage those who are listening to watch Searching for Shinika.
It is an eye opening, very well done story about
names and identity and perception. So I encourage you to
watch that, and I encourage you to continue to follow
(57:28):
and check Phil branch Out. He is doing an amazing
thing during his time on this planet. Phil. I want
to thank you so much for coming and having this
conversation with me. I look forward to reading your book
and unpacking some of it if you'll allow me to,
(57:50):
and thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
Thank you for having this, this book. This is so wonderful.
Thank you so much. I'll be thinking about what I
need and how to frame that from.
Speaker 2 (58:01):
How to please dial, Please dial
Speaker 1 (58:12):
MHM
I think we waited too all to have this wake up,
even before we had some political divide. What we should
have learned from how we resent technology was that we
can't keep storing our thoughts, our dreams, our research, our
histories for our devices.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome to the Shaping Freedom Podcast, where we dive into
conversations that inspire personal growth, transformation, and clarity and challenging times.
I'm your host, Lysan Bosquiat. Today I am honored to
sit down with someone who truly understands the power of
storytelling not just as a form of entertainment, but as
(00:51):
a tool for self definition, resistance, and cultural transformation. Phil
Branch is an Emmy award winning filmmaker, writer, professor, and
Moth Grand Slam champion whose work sits at the intersection
of identity, race, and media representation. Through his acclaimed documentary
(01:14):
Searching for Shaniqua, Phil sparked a necessary conversation about the
biases attached to names and the deeper implications of how
society categorizes people. As a professor at Gucher College, he
teaches students how media shapes our perceptions of race and
culture at a time when those narratives are being both
(01:36):
challenged and manipulated, and as a storyteller, he helps people
take ownership of their lived experiences, transforming personal truths into
powerful tools for connection and change. But in addition to
all of this, Phil is also a father, a husband,
and a human navigating the very same political and cultural
(01:57):
landscape as the rest of us. Today, we're diving into
how we can sharpen our media literacy, how we can
reclaim our personal narratives and use storytelling as a way
to create meaningful impact in our daily lives. Thank you
for getting ready to create the space with me and welcome.
(02:25):
I took a deep dive into your work and I
actually watched your documentary recently and it brought up so
many things for me that I'd like to talk a
little bit about. But before we get into that, I'd
(02:47):
love to know in your own journey, what stories did
you have to unlearn or reclaim in order to become
the person you are today.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Wow, that question has been of mind for me as
of late. I'm writing a memoir which has taking shape
in a way that I hadn't expected it to, which
is what happens when you write, and it's starting in
one place where I thought I was just kind of
talking about my own identity and how I became who
(03:18):
I've become now through my experiences, and it then turned
to something where I'm looking at my relationship to myself
and how I viewed myself through the eyes of other people.
And in the book, the primary relationship that I'm dealing
with is my father, and I'm thinking about the ways
(03:39):
in which I thought I had to exist in the
world because of how he saw me. And you know,
I saw him as a you know, masculine man who
has served in a military and played football. Now with
this small kid who I read and wasn't necessarily athletic
in the ways that he was. And when I got
(04:02):
through a few of the chapters, when I began to
realize is that one of the things that I had
to learn was that I had to stop looking for
self in other people's reflection. You know. So I'm looking
at my mother to see how she approves what I'm doing,
to know if I'm doing a good job, instead of
(04:23):
thinking about how I feel about what I'm doing. I'm
looking at my dad, looking at his response to me,
as opposed to ever sitting down with myself and say
how do I feel about how I'm moving through the world.
So one of the things that I've had to unlearned
is to look, is to stop looking at other people's
responses to me first, and to kind of sit with
(04:45):
myself a little bit more, and to see how I
feel about choices that I'm making and the things that
I'm doing. That is a big thing that I've had
to learn over the years, And to be okay with
being a big one for me, being okay with knowing
the truth about a thing and not telling or saying
(05:06):
what that truth is because not everybody can handle it.
Because I used to be a person who knew it
and would say it because I thought everyone wants to know.
But now I'm comfortable with knowing what I know without
always telling people that I know it. Well.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I share some of some of what you're talking about
in that I too, and I think many of us,
you know, we grow up around people who have their
own ideals and their own filters through which they see
us and themselves and the world, and we quite naturally
(05:41):
step into the world with carrying all of that. How
does a person know when the narrative that you're being
taught isn't really yours or doesn't really work for you,
or I guess, how did you know?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
For me? There was a point when I was and
you learned different things at different stages, right, That's what
I know. At my big age now versus at thirteen
is different, but it was a similar response to the world.
I remember being in high school. I had skipped a
grade A sale from school, doingly well on standardized tests
and all the stuff. Then I got to high school
(06:26):
and I realized I had become this kid who was
supposed to be smart, who was supposed to know all
the answers, was supposed to be a certain kind of way,
And I began to resist that that notion. Not that
I didn't want to be smart, but I felt like
I was more complex than getting good grades. And because
I was seeing as smart and quiet, everyone thought I
(06:50):
was okay. So I started to think about who did
I want to be. Was it my goal to get
straight a's or was it my goal to being clubs
and to participate in school life and to hang out,
to grow socially, to do all those things. And I
think I chose in some ways to be as a
(07:12):
protest to not get the straight. A's like I have
been doing to resist some of the push because it
felt like while I enjoyed knowledge, I did not enjoy
the expectation that I'd be a certain kind of way
without anybody, Like maybe I would have excelled in other things,
(07:33):
but no one invested in that with me. It was like, Oh,
he's smart, We're gonna here's a new set of encyclopedias
for which I love because I've read them. But you know,
maybe a pair of track shoes and take me out
to the to the track because I like to run too.
So like it was this thing where I started to
feel in my body and I can't explain that. You
just know, like, hey, I've gone too far down a
(07:56):
lane and this is not exactly where I want to be.
And I now that I'm actually looking back at my
life and writing about it, I can see all these
little workers where I have at some point said, wait
a minute, this isn't me, and in whatever small way
try to pull back and try to get on the
path that is more in line with what I thought
(08:19):
that I was. Because I mean to be honest, you
don't really know at first, because you're being told who
you are, you know, your parents possibly have chosen a religion,
you live in a certain neighborhood. There are certain food
aesthetics and cultural esthetics that you're just supposed to latch onto.
And then for most people, they're happy just being that
(08:39):
thing that was kind of put on them. They're fine
with it, they live it, and they don't question it.
I wasn't that person, and so I like to question,
and I decided what would it be like to be
filled m And you pay a price for that when
(09:00):
you decide that you pay it. There's a cost for
choosing to be yourself, to be an individual. Wow, I
think it's worth it.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, It's an investment for sure, and it can be
a very heavy price to pay. You know, we have,
as I mentioned, some similarities, and I'm listening to you,
listening to you talk, and it's like I'm hearing myself
through your words and through your sharing of your experience
in that I was raised by a father who was
(09:35):
very very powerful man and had very strong ideas about
what success looked like. And there was this polarity, right,
It's like either you succeed or you fail, and the
success was determined by going down a particular path you know,
getting good grades, going to college, picking a white collar profession,
(10:03):
and that is how success was defined. And I also
was a kid who was really really smart, and I
did very well on standardized tests without a lot of preparation.
I just did and what I'm And I actually rebelled
as well in high school because and I remember my,
(10:26):
you know, my, my, My conversation with myself was like,
you don't understand who I am, right, And I didn't
understand who I was fully, but I there was a
conflict between what was expected from and of me and
how I felt best in the skin of who you know,
(10:49):
who I am and who I was. Uh, And so
I kind of veered off in another direction and actually
went so far as to go into corporate and to
try to kind of please what his view was, and
then eventually found that I was living in parts and
(11:12):
needed to kind of rEFInd myself. And I think that
the story you shared and my experience, those are experiences
that a lot of people, or a certain group of people,
I think, experience. I think there are some folks for
whom that provide structure and a plan and can be
(11:33):
very comforting, but for others it can be a real challenge.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, that idea of veering golf and finding that. Okay,
I made these choices, and I wasn't in the park,
but I was sitting there. And at one point, you know,
I don't know how many bills are getting paid. I
don't know, you know, I don't know where I want
to live, and maybe a friend, you know, let me
(11:59):
see what couch. This is the years I was living
in la in my early twenties, trying to make it
because I believe I could, and and just feeling like
there was still no place else i'd rather be, you know,
you know, scrounging for coy so I could go by
a ninety nine cent chicken sandwich at Burger King, and
(12:23):
knowing there's a full refrigerator at home waiting for me
in New Jersey. If I chose to move back, I'm
not going back because this I think that was supposed
to be here. Yeah, even if I'm hungry.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, it's wow. That is that is wow.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I grew up in an upper middle class home in
a brownstone in Brooklyn, and I had not before. You know,
at that point, I hadn't felt as free as I
felt while I was just roaming around, you know, staying
at friends homes and and knowing knowing that I could
(13:00):
go home and I would be allowed home, and that
life was different, but there was something else that I needed.
What were you? Why did you come? Two questions? Actually,
where in New Jersey did you grow up? And secondly,
why what were you searching for? In la?
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I grew up in Newark, in Irvington, New Jersey, born
in Orange Hospital. I spent my first years of Newark.
We lived in Elizabeth for a little while, and my
last years there were in Irvington when I was in
(13:43):
high school. But I went to high school in East
art Catholic High School at about three hundred kids in
a most small school that is no longer in existence
because those schools struggled to stay aflote. But you know,
I loved it and I had a really interesting in
life there too, because I grew up in what somebody
(14:04):
would call and I don't use this term, but people
would call the hood, you know, But it wasn't. I mean,
people it was fine, like it wasn't when you see
the movies, and people were just hardworking. It just it
was just what it was, you know. But within that,
you know, I could recognize that I was lucky in
(14:27):
many ways that I had, you know, for a time,
having both of my parents together, you know, were married
and both employed, doing pretty well, and had access to
some resources. So like when when I got older and
they decided, hey, we don't know if the public school
is the right fit, they were able to put me
into Catholic schools, you know. So I lived this life
(14:49):
where like, I have friends who could have that choice
made for them, and also had friends who whose parents
were scratching and just trying to survive the day. And
I think that was really good for me to see
because I always understood that there were different ways you
can go, you know, and that it required different things
of you to be able to live a life that
(15:12):
maybe that you're dreaming of. And I don't know why,
but I always wanted to be out for where I was.
I was an avid reader. I knew the world was
bigger than my neighborhood. I watched a lot of TV,
as many Latchkey kids did, and the world just seemed
so big and I wanted to see it. So when
(15:36):
I went to college, I went to Hampton kind of
blast loved that experience and when it was time to leave.
I didn't have a job. I didn't want a corporate job.
I wanted to work in the industry. I wanted to
just be creative. And I had spent all this money
well my mother had on touris shit and I am
a job, And I bought a one way ticket to
(15:57):
La because I felt like the life that I wanted
was waiting for me there. And if I'm being honest,
this is going to be in a book, so I
can't go too far. I think I needed to be
away as far away as possible from the life I
had built to kind of maybe start a fresh flook.
So La seemed like a perfect place. It was just
someplace I had envisioned my whole life, never been just
(16:22):
that imaginary thing that you think about when you think
about dreams. And as soon as I could go, I went.
I had nothing, I had no job, I had no
place to live. I just moved. Wow.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
You know, people are often uncomfortable with truth tellers, and
you've shared how you've learned how to manage the way
that you navigate that gift. Because I think being a
truth teller is a gift, and I also believe that
(16:58):
it comes with the requirement that you learn how to
hone it and how to wield it. And it's clear
that you've done that sometimes by not telling the truth
when you see it. What advice do you have for
others who may be grappling with being a truth teller
(17:22):
in their own environments.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
This is something that comes up a lot in my life,
this idea of not only truth, but what is truth? Right.
When I was in my early twenties or mid twenties,
I worked for the National Enquiry for a bit.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Oh wow, it was a blast. That's a blast in
the past.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Was making money, had an office for we were assessant
boulevard a credit card. I'm a baby, I'm just out
of college, you know, American Express Card and Spiths County.
And I learned that these people were really working hard
to get these stories. It wasn't just sitting around a
desk making up things. So I got this story about
(18:05):
an actress and it was true. I had done the reporting,
I had gone to do the interviews, and there was
something about their family, there being some kind of division
in their family. So I called my mom and I
send her copy of the articles, a front paid story,
and she wasn't really happy about it, and I asked her,
(18:27):
you know, I thought I had made so much more
money whenever you got a front pay story, got I
can extra five hundred to two thousand dollars sometimes for
a front paid story. So I'm excited, you know, I'm
twenty two, twenty three. I'm like, wow, I'm rich. So
my mother said, I don't know if I like this,
and I said why and she said, well, you know,
(18:50):
I know it's true because I know what you do
now I understand what the Inquirer is. Now. I know
that you're working. I know that you interviewed these people.
I know that this is you sourced it you ever
to in journal. I know you did the work, but
is it something that everyone needs to know? And she said,
you know, we have things in our family and you're
working to become this person, Like, do you want everything
(19:13):
that has ever happened within your family public? Because it's true?
You know? Is it okay? Because it's true. I'm not
one of those people, she said, who doesn't believe the
inquire is telling you know the truth, because I think
a lot of times they are. I didn't know that before,
but now I do because I have that access to
relationship with you. But then her question became was but
(19:35):
is that truth necessary for everybody? And it was such
an impactful moment for me because I had spent so
much time just proving people's belief that what we were
doing was telling lies all the time. I was like, no,
I actually went here and here are my sources that
I had not really been thinking about whether or not
it was anybody's rights to know a thing. So that
(19:59):
question her change how I move within the organization, and
I pulled away and means now I still that we're
one of the best experiences of my life. I met
some amazing people, but I began to really think about
what I was doing and what I was contributing to
the world. And so what I often think about when
(20:20):
people will talk about truth telling is where what is
the value of you telling that truth? Speaking that truth?
You know? Is it something that the world needs, that
your community needs, that you need? And I often ask
people if what they're speaking is truth or whatever, or
(20:41):
if it's just what's in their head, you know, you know,
because sometimes people just get to talk and saying whatever
they're thinking and say, well, I'm a truth teller. You
might just be being mean at this moment because an
emotional reaction to a thing. Yeah, And that's the truth
is that you're mad at me right now? Right. And
(21:01):
but the biggest advice, I think, the thing I think
about for myself is what's the value? Yeah? And you know,
writing a memoir, I have this heavy burden on myself
to not only tell the truth, but to think about
the impact I'm having on these supporting characters who have
been part of my life. So which stories do I tell?
(21:23):
How do I tell theook? And which things are I'm
willing to be said that I know may possibly cause
some discomfort. And if I want to do that, what's
the greater good that? You know?
Speaker 3 (21:38):
What is the purpose? What is the value?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah? I think it's also intention, you know, what is
a person's intention in speaking this truth? You know on
air quotes? Because you're absolutely right, and I'm glad that
we continue to talk about that topic of truth telling,
because that's the other side of it, you know, the
one side is, Yeah, there's things that I can say
(22:14):
because I see them, But why do I want to
say them? And what's the benefit? What's the consequence of that?
Is it to make the person. What is my intended consequence?
Is it to make the person feel badly? Is it
to hurt the person because I feel hurt by them,
(22:34):
you know? And I think that now, in the day
of social media and everyone kind of wanting to speak
the truth, there is a lot of that. There's a
lot of emotional sparring that takes place, and a lot
of opinions that are given about people, especially people who
(22:55):
are in the public eye, that don't really take into
account that there's a human on the other end of
that opinion.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
I'm not ready for that piece of it, you know.
I've already had people who I'm working with say to me,
you know, like, once this book comes out and we're
doing publicity, you'd be kind of pushing further out to
that public sphere.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
And I've always loved to write, and maybe when I
was young, I wanted to be famous. Maybe maybe, But
now I don't necessarily I want to be working. But
somewhere halfway through the book, I realized, Oh, they're going
to spend money to promote this thing, and they're going
to put me in front of They're going to do
(23:41):
their jobs, and that means that I have to you know,
looking at my friends who are authors, who are public figures,
I'm like, oh, they have to show up and be
you know, and be on and they have people know
them when they walk into spaces, and that's I'm not
I wouldn't complain about having that level of success, but
I've had to adjust my brain and start thinking about
(24:05):
now people get to speak about me, you know, in
the ways that you know, I've heard discourse around other
authors and their intentions and their writing. And I think
because I've been doing this work so long as a
storyteller on the stage where I have had to use
other people as part of my story, and I've had
to do it responsibly, and I've had to have those
(24:26):
conversations with family and friends about their usage in my stories,
that I understand a little bit what that may feel like.
And I'm kind of bracing myself for other people's truths
about who I am or how they see me in
my work. And I think knowing that it kind of
circles around back to you as well, kind of makes
(24:49):
me a little bit more responsible about how I deal
with other people.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, And I think that taking that responsibility on or
understanding and acknowledging that speaking the truth is as much
about telling a story as it is about also understanding
that there are other people involved in that You have
a responsibility to at least engage them in what's happening,
(25:17):
or share with them what it is that you have
to say, even if it doesn't feel so good to them.
My family's story is an interesting one, and I've had
people ask questions that in the beginning I felt slightly
(25:37):
offended by just because they were asking the question. It
had nothing to do with the answer. It was just like,
why are you asking that?
Speaker 1 (25:44):
You know?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
And I began to pose the question back to the person,
you know, what was your childhood? Like? How is your
you know, what happened in your family? Are your parents
together or divorced?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Is that? Like?
Speaker 2 (26:01):
And uh? With love, but just with a slight kind
of pushback to confront and to give the person the
opportunity to think about what they were asking of another
human being and the the the the delicate nature of
some of those questions. I would imagine though, that with
(26:23):
your with the experience that you've had in telling stories,
that I think you'll be okay with the discourse around
your book. You'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I think the hardest probably family. A lot of my
stories about family and relationships, and I think they're bracing themselves.
They have no idea what I want to say. You
know that I talk openly, so I think they're I
think they're a little nervous, but I think they know
(26:56):
I love them enough. That is not I'm not going
to be rightless, you know, with them or any story
that would involve them, even if it's not the most
favorable moment or story. I'm still not going to be disrespectful.
I wanted to go back. You've mentioned the social media piece,
(27:18):
and I think this is really important. Truth is really
interesting now for me because I think it gets confusing.
So a couple of years ago, one of my students
that I taught college and I had students who were
then going into the world doing jobs in media where
they everyone was a brand now and I worked in
(27:38):
marketing and all that stuff. But then now everyone is
a brand, and you know, the whole thing in one
of my former students, who I really respect, brilliant, brilliant,
brilliant person. Then this might have been around twenty twelve,
twenty thirteen. People will just really start and then get
(28:00):
into Twitter and Instagram and sort of how they presented
themselves into the world certain kind of ways. And what
didn't make sense to me was this presenting things that
looked like someone caught you on camera, but really you've
set up a mic, a light of this, of that,
(28:20):
and then you're pondering something with a beverage and you know,
you're thinking about I was like, that's not true. Now,
that's a photoshoot to me. And I remember getting into
this discourse with this student former student who they felt
offended a little bit by my question around is this
(28:42):
real or performative? Right, So we had a discourse around that.
But now fast forward a decade later or so, everything's that,
everything's you know, a.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Setup many things.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
You know, like, yeah, much of it is, you know,
crying on camera, but you've set up the camera and
posted it. That. I believe truth has changed that. I
think that is real to people now. That is now true.
That is now like, that is now how we communicate.
(29:21):
That is now how we dialogue. So what might have
looked false ten years ago now becomes a way that
people communicate. And it's tricky for me in the sense
that as somebody who has studied literature, who has studied film,
who analyzes conversation and people. That intention becomes really hard
(29:47):
for me when I'm looking at a lot of what
I see, and not even just content creators, but just
keep because not all of it is for entertainment. It's
meant to be real life, or to be news, or
to be so that intention piece it is so critical
for me in the social media space, and that's why
we're consuming so many things. It's like, what was your
(30:09):
intention to get more lots? What was your intention to
tell this story, to say this thing? And I think
about that a lot. Let's say, when I see teachers
in classrooms doing really clever things with their students, and
I wonder is this for the student? So I have
a hard time sometimes parsing out I feel like, everybody, Oh,
(30:33):
this is really fun. That's the best teacher because she's
you know, pop locking with her students and it's great,
and I'm going it also feels narcissistic and performative, and
I struggle, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Is it a scene in a play or is this
a learning experience that will send the students off with
more than they had when they walked.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
In the room. Yeah, and see, so much of that
now that you know, I've stopped. I'm not teaching right now.
After COVID, I just kind of I unplugged. It was
such a hard time, but I saw a lot of
no one knew what was real or what wasn't anymore,
(31:18):
and it was really hard for students to distinguish. And yeah,
it's changing, you know. And I have to work with
that with my kids now because they'll see something and
they think, because they saw it on YouTube, that is true,
and I have to teach them though that's just somebody
with a camera. Yes, you don't know, and you have
(31:40):
to start that early. You know. It's scary a little bit.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
It is a little scary. But I think that one
of the things that I was so excited about as
I looked into what you've done and who you are
and how you shared and contributed, is that you really
have this. You have the storytelling downpact, and you seem
(32:08):
to understand that we are here writing a story, whether
we're aware of it or not, and we are a
character in a story about our world, and that we
have the ability to create that character and recreate that
(32:29):
character in a way that is best for us or
in a way that best suits who we are what
we want in the moment. And I think that's a
very powerful thing to have and to realize and recognize
about who you are in the world. Did you always
(32:51):
know that about yourself or about the way this thing?
This scene because it's all a scene, right, I mean
even right now, right because I'm doing this, you know, like, yeah,
it's all a scene.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
We are.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
This is a scene that you would that you and
I are in, that we've created. Ryan is behind the camera,
Billy sitting back there, Yvette's you know where she is
watching Parkers somewhere, and we are creating a space together.
And I think that one of the things that I
really feel drawn to about you is that you get
(33:31):
it so we can create in this moment whatever it
is that we choose to. But it's not just about
a podcast episode or an author and a filmmaker. It's
the person who goes to the grocery store. It's the
person who teaches children or adults. It's all of us
(33:52):
have this ability to write a story and tell the
coroach truth and what are we doing like that? And
you seem to really understand that.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
I think, having having had students you know, come to
me and you know, outside of the classroom setting, it's say,
you know that one day when you mentioned X, Y,
and Z, which is totally not related to the content
material necessarily, but me mentioning I have to leave early
because it's about to spell and I have my babies
(34:31):
are going to get out of daycare and someone has
to be there, and you know, my husband is in Florida.
At a conference, I had students come to me and say,
you know, I'm not out, and just hearing you talk
about having kids and a husband is really cool to me.
(34:52):
Thanks for just just thanks for giving us that. And
I wasn't really thinking about an impact. You know that's necessarily,
but I will say that I don't know that I
had any professors that looked like me, who lived the
kind of life that I had openly. And it became
clear to me that just my showing up was a
(35:13):
story for some of these students who who hadn't had
either black professors, who hadn't had openly gay professors, who
hadn't had professors who looked like them, who had families.
And these students are now in their thirties and you know,
late twenties and they're still reaching out instead to be
(35:34):
pictures of their families or tell me about their accomplishments
because they saw something beyond course content. And I do
think that is narrative. It is seam seting making people
feel comfortable in bringing yourself into the space because if
you're going to you know, especially as a writing professor
and professor, you have to be human to exchange these
(35:55):
ideas and really get to the to really get to material.
And when I grew up, you know in Jersey, family
would say, you know, it's funny now because I'm literally
doing this thing. Something would happen crazy at a family
function over dinner, and someone would stand up and say,
(36:18):
is this is this going to be in the book?
And look at me? Is this going to be a team?
I'm fifteen? Is this going to be in the book?
And here I am literally writing the book? And it's
funny to them in some ways. So whenever I was
(36:38):
admitting then was signaling to them that you know that
not only that I was writer, but that I was
a storyteller of in some capacity. But I think that
comes from I did something that was really one of
my first stories on stage was about this I did
(36:58):
something that was really rare. I think a lot of
black families is that I just talked. I openly talked
about things, you know, like I asked questions, and that
isn't always welcome, or even if it's welcome, it is
I because so much is Hell's.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Hell tight in secret?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, in secret? And here I come in the room, Grandma,
you know so my oldest my youngest uncle is only
seven years older than me. Who was the you know, like,
where's you know? Help me do the math? And everyone's like,
who asked that question? Me? Because I'm wondering where everybody
(37:44):
came from and I've always been there for I like
to piece thing. I like to know where I am.
And I think that's what storytelling me and communicating is
it kind of situates you so you know where you are.
My life has gotten exponitionally better because of me writing
and telling me stories. Because now when I walk into
(38:04):
rooms with old friends, people who maybe have not met me,
but they've seen some of my work, they've already decided
a little bit of what they think about me, and
it's all, you know, much of it's on the table.
So I don't have to do a lot of that
pre work that I used to have to do with
people in some cases, and it's just sort of changed
(38:27):
my life.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah, I think that people see who you are even
before sometimes even before you do. And that is the
reason why a family can at a dinner table turn
around and look at a fifteen year old young man
and know that he is the storyteller. And I think
that for those folks who are listening, who I hope
(38:51):
now understand that we are all telling a story, and
we're all characters in someone's story. The more that we're
able to look to the left and right of us,
and ahead and behind us, and to be aware of
who we are in the story, the better, the more
(39:12):
power we actually have, and the more empowered our families,
because we understand that it's not just about us in
that moment, in that particular event, but it's about how
we are contributing to the overarching story of a group
of people and a community and a world and a city.
And I think that if more of us took the
(39:34):
time to really recognize and realize that and respect it,
we could get moving into the directions that we really
want to be in.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
You know, I host a storytelling festival this will be
my second year doing it. This is coming by, and
you know something that we to France it just getting
on stage and telling stories has now become a little
scary for people because people tell our kind of stories
about family, about sensuality, about gender, about and I do.
(40:10):
I have been feeling like I wonder what the world
looks like for the next couple of years getting on stage,
and if theaters are going to feel scared with all
their grant money coming in for wherever it's coming in,
to keep allowing us to get on stage just do
whatever we want to do. I just thought it was
my own anxiety, just kind of getting ahead of myself.
And I ended up talking to a producer last week
(40:32):
about the festival which is coming up, and asked if
she wanted to make me do something later on another
day and she said, I actually it. Maybe I'm crazy,
she said, but I'm actually not certain we'll be able
to do this anymore. She goes, I've gotten to a
place where I worried that storytelling is going to be
(40:54):
in theaters are going to be so scared of putting
out you know work that you know now just set
we used to see normal, but will become something else
in it coming much because I because I haven't put
anything on my calendar past May, because I'm not quite
sure what kind of country we're going to get in
(41:15):
the next couple of months. And it was really striking
at this thing that I always thought was powerful, now
maybe even more important because of the erasure that may
happen because people are afraid of pushback around sort of
very people's voices.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
That was going to be one of my questions to you,
and that is, with what's happening in the cultural landscape
and societal landscape that we're living in, what is your
advice to other storytellers in whatever capacity, Because the other
part of it is that history erased goes away, you know,
(42:16):
So there is a chapter here, and there's a chapter
that we're all living through. What does one do under
these circumstances. I'd love to hear your voice in that.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
I think we waited too long to have this wake up,
even before we had sort of political divide. What we
should have learned from how reusing technology was that you
can't keep storing our thoughts, our dreams, our research, our
histories or devices and on platforms that change every three
(42:53):
minutes and collecting this that collect us that you don't
have devices to open them up anymore. That we were
already losing history because of that, having forty thousand photos
on your phone that your kids want to be able
to access to see themselves when they're fifteen to fifty,
(43:15):
Like you know, we were already losing right the whole
notion of a black Twitter and all these black spaces.
You can't have a black Twitter in a space that
you don't own, not in any real way. So when
people are lamenting you, you know about who's running what
(43:38):
they've always been running yet. So we've built dreams, hopes,
empires on top of platforms and places that didn't belong
to us. And now we're going what we're supposed to do.
And I think at some point we have to decide
if we want to go perform in a hole in
the wall and tell stories like I did for many years.
(44:01):
And that's how I cut my teeth and learned how
to write. It's how I was able to get to
the place I am now. I didn't need anybody's grant money,
I didn't need anybody's anything. I knocked on the door into
someone and say Okay, enough, let me here. Here's a stage.
You know, I'll give you a Sunday afternoon or whatever.
I'll take it, you know. And but it's yours. It's
(44:24):
yours enough. And I think your story belongs to you.
As long as you can write, you can produce it,
as long as you you have a phone, you can
record it. I had a podcast for a couple of
years during the pandemic that I love doing. The audience
for that was crazy, Like I was recording that in
bed on my phone, just random thoughts about what was
(44:46):
going on, and it blew up. I was at home.
I didn't. I didn't. I didn't go into a studio
because I didn't. I couldn't, you know. But I had
some things to say. And I think that's always been
my advice to do this is use what you have
to do what you need to do, and don't be
(45:06):
completely dependent on things that require too many gatekeepers, you know,
because then you'll wait forever. Now I say that my
book is with a major publishing companies with proper columns mhm.
But most of my work is fine. Most of my
work has been independent work. I made a conscious choice
(45:31):
to what the book to be someplace else proper columns
at pressed that I wanted to. I wanted help with
that because I felt like I wanted it to reach
as many people as possible to then provide me the
ability to still do independent work. You know. But I think,
I think, as a storytelling, your job is to tell
(45:52):
stories and not wait for people to give you permission.
And that's just been my my, my biggest advice, you know.
And I had to learn that myself living in LA.
It's all about being chosen. So I learned a lot
in LA. I had some amazing experiences. I mean, you know,
I just it was. It was a great place for
(46:14):
me to learn. I knew the industry, what to film school, like,
I did the whole thing. But I also waited too
long for other people to say, it's your turn.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
You have to choose yourself.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Yeah, And I didn't get that until I left LA
and I started creating because I felt like it for
you know. And all of a sudden, I'm flying back
and forth to LA and to other places to do
work based on work that I'm creating on the East coast,
you know, wherever I am. And it was a big
(46:47):
wake up off for me to remind myself. You know,
you can't do all the things you want to do alone,
but there's something there as many things you can do.
You need a couple of good friends sometimes to help
you with the mic, somebody with some talent with the camera,
and sometimes you don't need that just to get started.
You just need to figure out go on Google or
figure it out or someplace. I don't know if you're
(47:08):
still using Google, but I can go someplace and figure
it out.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
I sit here today during this conversation as a student you.
I've gotten so many gems out of this conversation with you,
and before you go, I want to tell you what
some of them are. One is, just do it, say
(47:33):
what you have to say. The second is that we're
all storytellers, and I think as long as you're a human,
you actually are a storyteller again, whether you realize it
or not. And there's a way. Number three is there's
a way to tell the truth with grace and respect
(47:55):
and kindness and patience for the human experience and for
where people are as they evolve or not. I feel
very inspired by you, and I'm really glad that we've
had a chance to connect. And I look forward and
hope that we can chat some more when your book
(48:18):
comes out, because I want to talk about that book
I had heard about. It's interesting. Just very recently I
heard about Moth for the first time, and so I
was very excited when I read through your history and
saw that you have spent a lot of time on
(48:39):
that stage, crafting, honing your craft. How can we support you?
Speaker 1 (48:47):
Oh, you know, I went to a conference last week
and that was one of the questions that one of
the moderators asked us to think about all this sort
of whole wellness leadership. Say that I was able to
go to at the last minute, and that has been
a struggle for me. The idea of and this is this.
(49:09):
We can go on forever about why, but how to
receive and what to even ask for? You know. So
for me as a writer, as an artist, I think
it is just go to my website and then that's
things come up and you know, but I'm not big
on social media. I mean, I use it. I'm not
like one hundred years old. I use it. But for me,
it is conversations like this are great for me because
(49:31):
they also make me think. And your voice is amazing
and you know, and just they just make me think
and and and in process even how I'm moving through
the world and everythink some things. But really for me
right now, it is I am at a place where
I am figuring out what I need. That is probably
(49:53):
the most honest answer. I'm figuring that out now, I find.
So I'm listening to your introduction, hearing all these in
me and all that stuff, and I'm just like, it
doesn't even feel like that's me. You know, I'm exhausted.
I have to tell you, I'm exhausted and I spent
And when I walked away from my conference last year
(50:17):
this last week is that my goal for the next
year is to figure out they had this term called
the energy gap, was to figure out where my ambition
and work was in conflict with sort of time and
what I really have to do, like raise my kids
and things like that, because I can't run on empty
(50:43):
you know. You know, I've been a solo for the
most part. I mean, I need people for my films,
but you know, I work by myself. So my big
plan for the year to finish this book and then
really think about how to call run the resources and
the public who has been really supportive of support of
my work, how to really call on them in a
(51:03):
way that is meaningful and right now to be on
this punch of so no, because I'm constantly what's the
next thing I have to.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Do, getting to the next thing, telling the next story,
telling a different version of the story. I am going
to boldly ask request that we chat again. I believe
that you and I could talk for hours. There are
so many things that I wanted to say, but I'm like,
(51:33):
you can't do that because you can't do that right
now because we'll be sitting here for three hours and
that's not going to work today. But I would love,
love Phil if you would come back once your book
is done so that we can chat a bit about that.
And I'd love to start that conversation with hearing what
(51:57):
you need and how we can support you, because I
think that when we get more comfortable with that, and
I have struggle with that throughout my life, I'm getting better.
I'm much better today. But when we learn how to
ask for what we need, it opens up a door
(52:17):
to our relationship with ourselves, because it means that we
have acknowledged our true value, our internal worth and value
and for the audience. There were three things from searching
for Shaniqua that I'd love to share really quickly, And
if you can just really, really quickly speak to these
(52:41):
three things, I'd really appreciate it. And these are three
things that I noticed. One was that Schandrika liked her
name until she was five years old, until she got
to school, and until school told her and taught her
to disc like her name. The second was a statement
(53:04):
that someone made, I don't remember who I know, you
do that America makes you choose between success and culture,
and that was so profound to me. And the third
was there was a conversation I think it was a
book club, and someone in that group made a statement
about a disparaging statement, respectfully about someone naming their child Unity.
(53:33):
And what I thought about when I heard that was
how people have meaning that they apply to a name,
and how that then how people believe that they then
have the right to grade that and rate that, And
(53:56):
I just felt that, coming from an audience that was black,
that it was just an unfortunate statement. I am standing
for a world where people are allowed to just be,
to be who you are, and to be seen and
(54:19):
respected and loved and welcomed based on who they actually
are versus the layers and layers of lens and filter
that we seem to have to go through.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
One thing I learned doing the screening tour for Shniga
after Wese and did the festivals. Oh, I have kids now,
so that five year old piece really is striking to
me because you see how much your kids start to
change because other kids say things to them and teachers.
So we have been very intentional about shoring our kids
(54:56):
up as much as possible so that we give them
something that then when they walk into those situations that
they have a little bit more sort of you know,
protection from, they won't be immune to it, but they'll have,
you know, some steadiness because we've given them that.
Speaker 2 (55:15):
And they'll be filled up. They're filled up.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
Yeah. Yeah, we were very intentional about that. But we
were on the screening tour and we were at we
were in Harlem, and the discussion from every stop was
names have meaning. You know, even if you know what
they are. You know that person who named their kid
(55:37):
you Nikki or whatever, they they had a MENI and
we shouldn't disparage And Shaniqua McClendon, who is amazing. She's
the one that was doing the stuff with the you know, Thomas,
the White House and all the things, the main Shaniqua
in the film. We were in the panel and she said,
you know what, I don't think my name has to
(55:58):
have a meeting. My parents were young. They liked how
it sounded. End of story, you know, she goes, Everyone
in here is like trying to give me grace because
you know your mom and your parents. You know there
was meaning for the name, so we shouldn't judge. She goes,
I don't know that it was. It sounded pretty Her
(56:20):
point was when you meet a woman named Lisa, you know,
did you ask her what Lisa means? Or Jin or
KB she so don't ask me what Shneka means. Is
no different than those names in the room, just kind
of you know, she goes, I know it's with good intention,
but no one's asking anybody what Jackie means. You know,
(56:42):
and those days may all have meanings, but we're not
walking around thinking about it. And it changed the discourse
of how we talked about the film and the screenings.
I think there are meanings for a lot of people
who give those names, but mostly like you said, just
for the most part, lead people alone. Yeah, you know,
let them be. You know, so some people have a
(57:04):
really hard time with that, you know.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
I encourage those who are listening to watch Searching for Shinika.
It is an eye opening, very well done story about
names and identity and perception. So I encourage you to
watch that, and I encourage you to continue to follow
(57:28):
and check Phil branch Out. He is doing an amazing
thing during his time on this planet. Phil. I want
to thank you so much for coming and having this
conversation with me. I look forward to reading your book
and unpacking some of it if you'll allow me to,
(57:50):
and thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
Thank you for having this, this book. This is so wonderful.
Thank you so much. I'll be thinking about what I
need and how to frame that from.
Speaker 2 (58:01):
How to please dial, Please dial
Speaker 1 (58:12):
MHM
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