January 6, 2025 • 52 mins
Happy New Year to all of you beautiful listeners. While we are busy crafting and perfecting the lessons we feel you need to take with you into 2025, we feel it’s imperative that you reflect on your relationships and how to navigate those that betray you.
We’re going to look back on Lisane’s conversation with Camille Tenerife. Camille is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in Los Angeles working with CBT/DBT training and specializes in trauma and interpersonal relationships. The pair will take a deep dive into relationships of all kinds and we might take accountability for our actions and address our collective pain when things go differently than we planned.
You can learn more about Camille at her website: https://www.diversifiedtherapyla.com
We’re going to look back on Lisane’s conversation with Camille Tenerife. Camille is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in Los Angeles working with CBT/DBT training and specializes in trauma and interpersonal relationships. The pair will take a deep dive into relationships of all kinds and we might take accountability for our actions and address our collective pain when things go differently than we planned.
You can learn more about Camille at her website: https://www.diversifiedtherapyla.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Shaping Freedom with Lisan Bosquia podcast. This
is your host, Lysan. So I am really excited you
guys and gals, because I had a h There was
an episode that was recorded back in May. It's called
the Girlfriend Happy Hour Chat. And what I did during
(00:27):
that conversation was I got together with a bunch of
my girlfriends and we got together to have a conversation
about all kinds of things. It was kind of like
a happy hour chat. And one of the topics that
we talked about that of course, always comes up whenever
a bunch of you know, girlfriends get together. I don't
know what guys do, but you know, I'm assuming they
(00:48):
do the same thing is we started talking about the
topic of relationships and it was a pretty lively conversation
that I really enjoyed because I just love talking to
my girlfriends, and we talked about One of the topics
that came up was the topic of relationships where some
(01:11):
of the behaviors in the other person are behaviors that
are less than ideal. And in that conversation we talked
the topic of narcissism came up and that sent us
down a different path of the conversation that I quite
(01:32):
frankly got a little bit of flack for and my position.
I got a little flack for my position during that conversation.
And so a couple of weeks ago or a few
months ago, I had a conversation and had the pleasure
of chatting with my next guest about the topic of
(01:52):
corporate persona. And my next guest is a psychotherapist working
in the area and who focuses a lot of her
work on the idea of corporate persona. And so that
was the conversation. It was a conversation of helping people
(02:16):
who are navigating the corporate landscape to do so in
a way that also helps them to stay true to
the person that they are. Well after the conversation was over,
I thought about this topic, about this girlfriend happy hour chat,
(02:37):
and I thought about the fact that I wanted to
close the loop on that conversation by addressing the concerns
that a few people had and reached out to me about,
which was what they thought I was saying about relationships
and about narcissistic behavior. And so I won't give it
(02:59):
away here, but I do encourage you to go ahead
and listen to this conversation that I am having this
week with Camille Tenerife. So, Camille, you and I had
a conversation a few weeks ago, maybe a couple of
(03:20):
months ago at this point, at the beginning of the summer.
That's great, yes, and I loved chatting with you. And
we don't know each other. We don't know each other
outside of the couple of times that we you know,
the last time and this time that we're having the
opportunity to chat. And one of the things that came
(03:40):
up for me during our last conversation was that I
wanted you to have a conversation with my audience, to
chat about relationship things, to get a little to take
a deeper dive into relationships, and not just romantic relationships,
(04:02):
but relationships overall, and more specifically about the the some
unhealthy behavior patterns that people sometimes repeat. And just to
kind of set this up in to bring some context
(04:23):
to it, there is an episode and I don't remember
the episode number right now, audience, but there is an
episode that we recorded several months ago that I titled
girlfriend Chat, and the purpose of that conversation was to
talk about relationships. You know, a few of my girlfriends
(04:45):
and I got together on this, you know, on the podcast,
and we just jammed out about relationships, and one of
the topics that came up in that during that conversation
was the topic of narcissism. And I made a comment
during that conversation that I got some flack four that
(05:08):
I want to clarify now. And the comment that I
made was a comment about not focusing so much on narcissism,
or that that's great, you know that a person's a narcissist,
and what's more important is focusing on the ways that
(05:32):
we're showing up and being in relationship. And that got misconstrued,
I think as me saying that that's not an issue,
that that's not a problem, and that I was almost
making that an insignificant thing, and I just wanted to
in this conversation clarify that that is not what I
(05:55):
meant at all. And what I was saying is that
it is one thing for us to point our fingers
at other people and at their behaviors that could very
well be shitty, and it is another and more productive
thing to take a look at the ways that we're
showing up in relationship. And so that is the purpose
(06:17):
of this conversation today. So that's like a really long
intro to welcome again my new friend Camille Tenerife, who
is a licensed therapist working out of LA and to
(06:38):
welcome you back to the Shaping Freedom podcast to chat
about this very delicate topic of relationships.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Hi, thanks for having me back. I'm happy to be here.
I really enjoyed our previous conversation. And as we're giving
that intro, I am just itching to share a ton
of feedback, yes, or just thoughts around all of this.
But I think what's really important it was I'm glad
(07:09):
that you were able to kind of have that long
intro because it was really important to maybe clarify and
really just have the courage to come back to this conversation,
even if it's already been critiqued one way or another.
So I'm glad that this space is here or for that.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, thank you, thank you. So, you know, we were
having this conversation and I don't remember how we got
into this, but I think it was after the conversation
was over our last convo and I think I'm just like,
you know, what, girl, do you want to have? This
is what happened? Right, And i'd love to circle back
(07:46):
to this thing because it is huge and my position
an entire message, and the reason why I found it
shaping freedom, and all of the tenants of shaping freedom
are around helping people to take one hundred percent accountability
(08:07):
for the world that they're in. And I believe that
we are so much better and so much happier once
we're willing to take accountability for our own lives and
for the world, for the world that we are creating
on the periphery of the person that we are, and
(08:28):
part of that is relationship. And so you know, if
you are on social media or just in conversations, you know,
I myself have been part of hundreds of conversations with
girlfriends where we're talking about something that happened, or even
male friends where there's something that happened where it's like
she sucked and she did this thing, and she hurt
(08:51):
me this way, or he cheated on me, or he
made me feel this way or made me feel that way.
And there is the venting conversation that sometimes we can
enjoy having or where we get some of the validation
you know that we sometimes want or desire. And then
(09:13):
there comes a point I believe where there needs to
be some accountability for what's happening in our lives, you know, Yeah,
so I wanted I wanted some support from you and
having that conversation and talking a little bit about relationships
(09:35):
and you know, the kind of things that you're hearing
and what your thoughts are on this topic of relationship,
and you know, we can dabble a little bit into
the into narcissism and what it means and all of that,
if that feels good to both of us. Uh, And
what I'd really like is to have some conversation about accountability.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Sure. Sure, I mean I have the same convers as
a therapist and in my personal life about relationships. And again,
no matter what it is, it could be relationships with
a romantic partner, but it could also be family friendship,
either relationships at work right with colleagues or your bosses.
So it really does show up in our lives and
(10:19):
in conversations naturally. I like what you said about the accountability,
and I think a good place to start is really
talking about this having space for everything that you had
just shared. And what I mean by that is true,
a person can be whatever label you want to use.
(10:40):
It you know, kind of or use for it, narcissistic tendencies,
they could be, their behaviors might have hurt you, or
all of these things. And at the same time, I
think that there is also a part of that accountability
that you're talking about. Right, we can validate that somebody
had cost you pain and had hurt you, and also
(11:02):
understand that what is looking at what is my role
in this? What's my apartment it? Oftentimes I think people
see it as black and white or either or it's
either that person is wrong and I'm hurt, or you know,
it's nothing is my fault, it's all their fault. But
the reality is both of us or both of the
people in each party could be responsible for the dynamic
(11:24):
that's going on or that came into play. It doesn't
it doesn't, I guess, neglect or or invalidate the hurt
that you've had if you start to look at the
accountability piece.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
So I love yeah, And one thing that popped up
for me is I love that you refer to that
inquiry into like, what's the role that I played in this?
And oftentimes people hear that and they immediately start thinking
again again. Girlfriends, all the girlfriends. We start thinking about
(12:08):
role that I played in it. I didn't tell him
to go do blah blah blah or her or you
know whatever the relationship is, role that I played in that.
I didn't ask my boss to be a micromanager or
to be rude to me or whatever or whatever those
circumstances are. And so can you explain a little bit
(12:31):
what you mean by role in it? Just because I
know that as that's like a and I hate using
this word, but I'm going to use it. It's like a
trigger point for so many peoples, right like role I played,
what I do? I was like the best woman on earth?
You know, absolutely?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah? And I think that there is maybe from what
you've described, coming from a place of blame, like I'm
blaming you for how another person behaved. But the reality
is there is those two are independent of each other.
I mean, we our behaviors affect everybody one way or another,
and so do other people. But when I guess, when
(13:08):
I say role in it, it could be one of
two ways. One is, what is my responsibility in maybe
allowing this to continue to happen? Maybe what was my
responsibility in not noticing this earlier? And that's not blame,
but also the other role in it of once I've
(13:29):
already realized that this is no longer healthy for me,
what is my role into in my next move, in
my next move for something that's related to my healing
and what's good for me at that point, So it
could be Again I want to stress that it's not
because of somebody else's that we are we're in charge
(13:50):
of somebody else's behaviors because we have actually zero control
over that, over people's emotions, their behaviors or thoughts, but
the only thing that we have control over is our own,
our own resoughts and emotions. So that's what I mean
by our role in it of one, what am I
doing to perpetuate this, whether that's subconscious or conscious and role?
(14:15):
And the next one is what is my role in
the context of now I know this information, what am
I going to do with it?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Exactly exactly? And I think I'll give my own example. Right, So,
I was in a relationship with someone and there were
some things that happened in the relationship that really were
about had less to do with the way that I
felt about this man because I loved him deeply and
(14:43):
more to do with where he was, yeah, in his
own relationship with himself, and where he was in the
health of his relationship with himself and his ability to
be in a health the relationship with me or anyone
else for that matter, right, because a lot of times
(15:04):
we take it personally, we're like, it is all about me, well,
and in fact it's not right. Yes, And so during
the course of this particular relationship, and I can think
of like all the times that I've been in the
situation in my life, you know, professionally or others where
once I got past the well that person did this
(15:25):
and you know this boss did that. Once I got
past that, there was this moment for me in this
particular situation I'll stay there where after I got through
repeating all the things, the terrible things that I could
point to, you know, you did this, you did that,
(15:47):
you did this, you do that, I had this moment
of realization, Camille. And I remember I was like sitting
on my bed and I was just sitting there like
in nothingness, right, and what came up for me and
it just like kind of very gently, kind of made
its way from the core of my being and it
(16:07):
was like, you know, I'm really sorry, Leisan that I
didn't listen right. And so what I realized was that
while I had put front and center the ways that
this person betrayed me through their behaviors and I'm not
(16:30):
diagnosing another person because it's not my place to do that,
where I was able to list out one, two, three,
all the ways that this person betrayed me, all the
things this person did at the end of the day,
I had been speaking to myself all along and choosing
(16:50):
to ignore myself, and that little voice that was like, girl,
you know, this shit ain't right girl, what you're doing,
you know? And then this conflict on the inside, right,
like leaves ass, no, just wait, I think we can
(17:11):
work it out, like all those conversations that people have
when they're in an unhealthy relationship with themselves, right. And
So while I was able to sit there and lay
out all the ways that I had been not treated
(17:31):
well or the ways that this person's behavior had impacted me,
sure at the end of the day, the person who
was the biggest betrayer of Leissan was Leissan. Yeah, because
there was a point in the relationship where I knew
in my heart of hearts that this was not the
thing that needed to be happening. This was not the
(17:54):
world that I needed to be living in. And the
truth of the matter, the truth of the matter is
that had I in that moment, that very first time,
said Yo, how's this love you?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
But no love you?
Speaker 1 (18:10):
But I got a boundary and you're all up on
the other side into my space with this boundary, and
here's the thing, you go and but get healthy. I
care about you enough to really want to be with you,
and you need to go and get healthy. And then
you know, And it doesn't mean like leaving it hanging forever.
(18:32):
It doesn't mean that the door's always open. But it
would have meant had that happened, it would have meant
that he would not have been placed in a position
to continue to have these behaviors with me, and I
wouldn't have been in a position of continuing to have
(18:53):
this long list of shit, dumb shit that he did
to make my life miserable.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Yes, yes, right, uh huh. And that is so that's
so beautiful that you were able to get to that
place and that really just high. Yes, And I was
going to say that it just speaks to that this
is all a process. Anything and everybody is on their
own timeline when it comes to these things, and as
(19:19):
long as you give yourself the space and the time
to really check in with yourself, is to check in
with ourselves, sometimes the answers will inevitably come and just
as it did for you. But it does take a
little bit of stepping away from a situation to get
some clarity. It's hard to see it when you're when
you're right in the way that I kind of think
(19:40):
about it sometimes is watching a scary movie and as
you're the audience, you're watching it, and you know, like,
why won't you just run on the opposite side of it,
or why won't you just yes, what are you doing?
It's not that difficult. Why are you answering the phone?
Hurry up? But the person and who's in it? I mean,
(20:01):
I know that it's a movie, but is similar to that, right,
can't necessarily don't have the same perspective asset audience does.
So I think it's the same for people going through
the difficult relationships or what's going on whatever with whatever's
going on with the situation, is that it is a
little bit more difficult to see those things and to
(20:22):
give yourself a little bit more time to really understand
what's happening. And so that's the purpose of like I mentioned,
we talked about the slash SIME therapy and journaling and
self reflection and getting feedback from people who have your
best interests at heart. Right, those are really important key points.
But to my point earlier, just like you said, you know,
(20:44):
that was your role, right, that was your role was
to be able to stop enabling this behavior from this
previous partner, and also to say, hey, this is enough.
I don't have to be someone who's receiving the consequences
(21:05):
of somebody else's pain.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And for me to stop enabling the behavior from myself
absolutely more importantly for me more importantly, like you're not
about to sit here and act like this is not
going on and then blame this and demonize this other
human being. Right, that's not what you're gonna do. This
is my conversation with myself. And so for me, and
(21:40):
again that is just one example, and relationships are like
we just love talking relationships. That's the only reason that
I'm bringing that one example up. But that example, you know,
in all areas of our life, even you know, for
those of us who are parents. It's the same thing.
It's like, why does this kid? I raise teenagers? And
(22:03):
so I know that there are many times, you know,
during the course of my raising teenagers that I would
say things like, you know, why does this one keep
doing this thing over and over and over again. But
the real question is why am I not sending a
boundary right right and applying some consequences. And it doesn't
(22:24):
mean like harsh, you know, this is a child, this
is this is these are you know, these are people
who are you part of my blood? Right, So not
the consequences of like you know, going up against them, right,
really sitting down and thinking through this is something that's
happening in my life that is not good for me.
It's not good for this person, this teenager, this boss, whoever?
(22:47):
What am I going to do about that?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Yeah? And that's so important, even if we take it
on on a grand, bigger scheme, it is so important
because then it teachs It's an opportunity if the other
person will ticket to really teach, like, hey, this is
actually okay and instead of walking around the world continuing
to hurt other people or not understanding their impact on
(23:09):
other people, when we actually need other people. So it's
that feedback is really good because then it just strengthens
the relationship that we will have moving forward if we
choose to see it that way. Absolutely, it is actually
beneficial for your in your in your case, for your
children because it does it doesn't have to get into
a worse situation later on in life than you are
(23:32):
now teaching them, Hey, this is how this is impacting me.
This is it's not okay, And it does help them
relate to other people moving forward, whether that becomes in
their personal relationships, romantic relationships, or the way that they
are at ork whatever that may be, it's going to
be it's going.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
To come up right or when they have their children.
Because this is like family legacy, right, So it's like,
how do you what can we do to help ourselves
to be a cleaner vessel through which we channel, Yeah,
the emotional legacy of our for our family. You know,
what can I do to get clearer about what I'm
(24:13):
accountable for and the areas that I need to work
on so that I can pass something cleaner on to
my children Joseph and Jessica, so that they can then
clean up whatever they need to clean up in order
to pass forward to their children.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yes, and we know, and there's science that backs up
how much we're impacted and affected by the way that
we had watched our parent, parent us and grandparents, you know,
all of our caregivers for that matter. So it is impactful.
Even if we think that they're not watching, they're absolutely
watching absolutely, yes, yeah, and getting programmed yeah yeah, without
(24:54):
even thinking about it, right, they're just making yeah, what
they're seeing.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I do want to share a little bit about what
you had talked about with narcissism a little bit there,
and again, just like you, I'm not here to diagnose
anyone that I'm not seeing I'm.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
But you're in a better position to do it.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yes, so do it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
No.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
What I will say though, is that I think, again,
going back to that black and white thinking, a lot
of people either classify somebody as a narcissist or not.
What's important to note is that each and every one
of us actually have We all have a narcisstic tendency
or a trait, but it doesn't mean in the field
(25:36):
of mental health typically when we diagnose someone or make
it official in that sense. There are a couple factors
involved there, So that means maybe a list of symptoms.
If you're experiencing three out of the seven, for example,
then that qualifies a diagnosis, or maybe if you're experienced
in experiencing something more days in the week than not.
(25:58):
So it's not as simple as oh, you exhibit this
behavior and now you are a narcissist, or you are
depressed or you have anxiety. I think that it's important
to note that we're human and we're allowed to feel
selfier sometimes, and we're allowed to be jealous and allowed
to feel sad and upset without really having a rational
(26:18):
reason for it. But it doesn't necessarily mean that we
are there's a diagnosis there, so something important to note.
So I think that was that's really important. A lot
of the times, I think people want the diagnosis to
try and understand and make sense, try to kind of
wrap something in their minds that's really hard to make
(26:39):
sense of of like, okay, I can classify it to
this one. But it does come back to regardless of
a diagnosis or not, it does come back to asking
yourself of what do I want here? What are my needs?
What are my non negotiables in a relationship? Are they
crossing these boundaries again, regardless of what the other person
(27:01):
is going through. Diagnosis is important for context, right, But
at the end of the day, we are in charge
of taking care of ourselves, and so it is important
to be able to recognize some of the things, whether
we label it or not, that are actually already harming
us and they're no longer good for us, and being
(27:22):
able to say that's enough. Another I think important piece
to that is sometimes I think there's also the opposite
end of it, meaning and I see this with a
lot of people who are more empaths and caregivers and
maybe highly sensitive people of what could I have done?
I wish I did something differently for that person to
(27:44):
not do this. So you and I are talking about
one end of it of what's my role in it,
what's my responsibility in it? Right, But other people go
on the opposite end of it, of like I could
have done this instead, then he wouldn't do this to me.
If I had done this instead, then she wouldn't have
done this to me, and so on and so forth.
I think that's also important to acknowledge because it is
(28:04):
the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yes, absolutely, I'm glad you brought that up.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, and it does boil down to again that we
are not responsible for somebody else's emotions, behaviors, and their thoughts.
I think important to stress a lot of the times
the control piece. If I wish I could have done this,
I could have done that is coming from a place
of again exactly that wanting to get controlled into something
(28:30):
that is actually not in your a false sense of control,
imagining what it would be like if I had just
done things differently. Right. But I think this is where
some self compassion can come in and understand that, yeah,
I had nothing to do with that. Even if I
did do something incorrectly, someone treating me poorly isn't necessarily
(28:54):
the quote unquote right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
And so what do you suggest, you know, because I
love to talk of the how right? Yeah, So I
mean I don't know, if you know, is there like
a list that says, you know, if a person does
these ten things, SHOT's what it means? And well, why
don't we go there first?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
And then I have Yeah, I think that's different for everyone.
So I think I kind of get what you're you're saying.
It's kind of like, what do you do once you've
gotten to understand that you've gotten to this realization. But
I think first and foremost is to really figure out
what is important to me. What are like I mentioned earlier,
your non negotiables and when, and what are your boundaries?
(29:35):
And when you have a hard time figuring that out,
go back to your value system, go back to what's
really important to me as a human being. And once
you go there you can kind of formulate what your
boundaries are, because what mine are are going to be
different than yours, different to Sally's, and different to somebody else's.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, So that's the important piece. And so I think
the next thing would be getting a little bit more
curious about your emotional responses. So say, for example, that
one thing that your partner did, or your boss did,
or whoever had really impacted you and hurt you. I
(30:16):
would get curious with yourself versus as to why. You
may not always come to the answer as to you know,
it might not trace it to childhood or things of
that sort, but as to why it affected you and
impacted you in that way, And oftentimes it will give
you some clarity that either one, oh that's a boundary
I didn't know. I didn't have so I get to
set that now and communicate that with the other person,
(30:39):
or I didn't realize that felt familiar, like a previous
relationship that I've had, and this is exactly what that
person did to me, And so maybe I'm not healed
from that just yet or whatever. It could be, right,
everyone's different, But the way to understand it is to
really just go go inward.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
To do that inquiry, which is something that so many
people are so you know, it's I don't want to
put that on people, but it can be scary, very scary,
which I think, yeah, which I think is why people like, well, Bob,
did let me tell you about Bob? Yes, but it's like,
(31:19):
let me tell you all about Bob, and we're not
going to talk about me. We're not going to talk
about the fact that Bob is just Fred. That was Sam,
that was.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Exactly and being maybe even one of your caretakers exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
So I don't want to do that inquiry because that
could be painful, you know. And so I think that's
part of the reason why you know, we we are
people are so quick to kind of like you know,
look to you know, shove a quiz under someone else's
nose to help them to diagnose themselves.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, it's hard, it really is.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
People go their entire life without necessarily a needing to
or wanting to look at this. But the consequence of
that is really again that passed down behaviors and the
maybe belief system onto the next generation and next generation,
like you were sharing a little bit, Yeah, yeah, there's
just some consequences to it.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Absolutely well, yeah, and I think there are consequences for
us and for the person, and we have to do
That's what boundary setting it's about, Yes, right, like, okay,
what are if this happens? You know, what are the
consequences of this kind of behavior and also considering what
the consequences are to you in being with a person
(32:40):
that exhibits these kind of behaviors. Sure, you know, because
again I know, you know, when I was a teenager,
I used to read you know, all the like Cosmo, Cosmopolitan,
all these different magazines that all have the quizes and
alls are like to tell you how jacked up another
person is. Okay, like you know, do you think he's
(33:03):
blah blah blah? And then you kind of go through it,
you know, does he love you? Like all kinds of things, right,
you do it? And the question that comes up for
me even in the conversations I have and so with
my girlfriends that I've actually sat down and you know,
broke bread with and clinked wine glasses with. You know,
it's like, we'll have this conversation about, well, this guy's this,
and he's terrible and he's just a blah blah blah.
(33:25):
And my question is a question that this may send
a little rude, It could be like my Brooklyn thing,
but it's like, so what he's you know, he's an
awful person, he's a narcissist. Maybe he's a this, he's
a that, So what you know? What does that mean? Actually?
And I got that from having worked in corporate and
(33:48):
I had a senior leader who would say that, you know,
whenever somebody came with a problem, you know, his response
would always be okay, so what not in a bad way,
but just okay. So now we know that this is
what this person is doing. Now we know what this
person's behaviors are, and now we know that you don't
like this person's behaviors. They don't you know, they don't
(34:10):
align with your values. So what what are you going
to do about it now, right, you know? And then
that's where you know, reaching out to a therapist like yourself,
or you know, some kind of a personal growth program
like mine, or really getting into inquiry and into creating
(34:36):
a space for yourself to heal and to understand, to
figure out what the so what actually needs to be
sure in order to kind of course correct back to
or forward to that way that you really want to
be living in the behaviors that you really want to
have in your life.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
And I think to add on to that, in the
content of romantic relationships, for example, it doesn't necessarily mean
it's always going to end up in leaving that person
or ending up on a breakup. It could also be
again information to say that, oh yeah, like I mentioned earlier,
it just could be a boundary or I'd love to
talk to you about this. And I think that these
(35:18):
arguments are opportunities for a deeper connection because it helps
the other person understand you a little bit more, and
you get to understand the other person a little bit
more if you both allow yourself to do that. And
I think with programs like ours, the important piece before
even the so what, what's the action piece there, because
(35:39):
I do believe that you have to change your behaviors
in order to change the way that you feel. But
maybe as even acknowledging how we feel first it sucks
that he or she or they treated you that way.
It's absolutely painful or frustrating, and whatever other emotion is there,
(36:01):
and stay in that space for as long because we
need not ruminating it because it could be unhealthy and
not helpful. But to just yeah that if I were
in that shoes, I would feel the same exact way,
and it's.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
A validation to a friend or someone that's sharing this
with you.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah yeah, and then that or that's really scary or
whatever that is, and say, Okay, now that we've gone there,
now what can we do to help move forward? I
think it's the it's the humanness and all of us.
We just kind of want to stay connected and understood.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Right right, I agree, And in the absence of other
people having that quow with yourself.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Yeah, correct, that's where the self compassion comes in. Yeah,
I don't. It's not just validating validation from other people.
We could also validate our own experiences. So one thing
I will share is that feelings are not always fad.
You know, emotions are important, but people who kind of
go through like anxiety or fear of whatever it is,
(37:07):
it's not just because we feel fear, it doesn't mean
that we're in danger. Right just because we feel anxious,
it doesn't necessarily mean that something bad is happening. So
we can validate our emotions and say, Okay, I'm feeling
fear right now, that's okay, or I'm feeling stressed from
my relationship right now, but it doesn't necessarily mean we
get to predict what's going that the our prediction based
(37:30):
off our emotions is true.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Absolutely. Yeah, It's funny you said something before about like
it not necessarily meaning that you and that person have
to end the relationship. And what that that came up
for me is, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
I think sometimes we confuse showing up one hundred percent
in a relationship with showing up one hundred percent on
that person's behalf. You know, So I was thinking I
dated someone recently and we you know, there was some
conversation about like fifty fifty, and you know, showing up
(38:10):
the difference between fifty to fifty and and showing up
one hundred percent, like each person showing up one hundred
percent in the relationship. And so even if you're in
a situation where that other person has these behaviors, you know,
I believe that we have a personal accountability and responsibility
(38:32):
to show up one hundred percent for the relationship. So
that does not mean that showing up one hundred percent
means you know, like we you know sometimes you know
that do or die thing. That's not what that means.
It doesn't mean I'm showing up one hundred percent in
the relationship. And what that means is that you can
crap all over me. Yes, you know, and I'm here,
(38:55):
I'm your woman, I'm your man. Keep treating me badly. Right,
That is a very different thing than showing up one
hundred percent, meaning you're I'm checking myself in this relationship.
I'm ensuring that I'm showing up in as healthy a
(39:16):
way as I can for our combined relationship and allowing
you to live in your lane and me to live
in my lane. And I'm not trying to hop over
and like micro control your situation.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, right, because what happens when you swerve into somebody's lane.
You can get into car accidents and persolutely. Yeah. Good,
So saying and your lane is really is healthy. And
at the same time that if you do show up
for the intention of changing another person's feelings to make
them feel differently than they are, it's robbing them of
(39:50):
the experience of what that specific emotion is, trying to
teach them, what that specific situation is, trying to teach them.
We can support and love and care for another person,
but it's not for us to take that for us
to take those emotions away, so love it. Otherwise, that
bleeds into the codependency, which is a whole other topic. Yeah,
(40:13):
which is a whole other thing. But I'd love that
you shared that. It's just showing up for the relationship,
and part of showing up one hundred percent for their
relationship is taking care of yourself too. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
So three tips.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
If a person were to be in a situation where
they're like, hmmm, I don't know, the person's taking a
lot more room on this bench, then you know they're
knocking me off the bench. It's all about them. You
have any tips for a person in that situation?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, I know you do. Yeah. The first thing, I'm
gonna just echo what I had said a little bit
ago was to get curious. That is the first first piece.
Sometimes when we assume what something else is something about
what's going on, sometimes it can lead us into I mean,
(41:18):
for storytellers as human beings, so we'll create this narrative
that may not necessarily be exactly true. So get curious.
See the second piece would probably get vulnerable and share
that with whoever that is. So to have a little
bit of be courage and bravery to say, hey that
(41:39):
this actually doesn't feel good. I don't have to have
the answers or to solutions, but I'm just sharing to
you that my experience is not necessarily the best right now.
And then the last piece is a personal reminder of
that self compassion. I think what reminded me was what
you shared a little bit ago. Just because I show
up for another person, it doesn't necess sssarily mean that
(42:02):
you get to be mean to me or yell at
me or whatever it is. I'm not your punching bag.
So a reminder of just because somebody is going through
a difficult time, it does not give them the license
to be mean to you, right, So setting some boundaries
around that, so curiosity, get vulnerable and self compassion.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
I love that. I wanted to say one thing. I
love the fact that you talked about getting vulnerable, because
I think what happens so often is we're so afraid
of being judged, and we're so afraid, especially those of
us who are like we're out here and we're doing
these huge things in the world, and we're like, you know,
doing the thing right, yeah, and who you know, it's
(42:49):
a lot harder to share sometimes you know that you
know I'm doing all the things, and you know I'm
in the situation that you know may not be the best.
And so happens a lot of times is that we
can go into isolation. You know, it's and you know,
(43:09):
just to be isolated in our pain is so much
more painful than the very thing that we can be
afraid of, which is judgment. And so you know, I
just encourage people to and I love that you mentioned
that find someone that you trust. You know, sometimes that
(43:31):
is the first step, right, find someone that you trust
and someone that you can just bear what's going on to.
Because what that does is, first of all, it engages
your community and people that love you and care about
you in your solution, just like they're helping you with
the solutions for all the other stuff. Right, You're giving
(43:54):
them the opportunity to show up for you. And secondly,
it gives you the chance to engage them so that
you can see your situation a little more clearly. Yeah,
you know, sitting there in our own heads running around.
I know, for me, when I'm running around up in here,
sometimes it's like I'm telling a lot of stories. Yeah,
(44:16):
I can tell some stories for real, exactly. Yeah, And
so I think that's so important. I'm glad you mentioned that,
because isolation, I think is such a painful thing and
I've done it. I've watched friends do it. You know,
I have clients who have done it, and it's just always,
you know, not the best way to handle something. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Yeah, I agree completely. I second that and I will
always second that is and I share that in my
first Yeah, Ito's chat with you is that the community
is so it.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Really is, really is. And the four I would add
a fourth thing too, Yeah, that's okay, let's add it seriously,
and that is don't about taking things personally. Take you know,
don't take things so personally. Understand that sometimes when things happen,
we believe that it's really all about us, you know,
(45:11):
and when in fact, it has nothing to do with you.
It has everything to do with what that person's situation is,
or where they are in their journey, the kind of
pain that they're in, or whatever it is that's going on.
And I think that, you know, not taking things personally
and trying very hard not to be defensive can really
(45:32):
help us to see things a lot more clearly and
find a way through, you know, to the next chapter
for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Absolutely. I think that a lot of times you want
to make it about us because we want to control
a situation, but their reality is it's not in an
offensive way. Is that it really just isn't about Yes, Yeah,
I love that fourth Thay, I'm glad you added it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Now if you have five more minutes, one more question
if that's okay, okay, Yeah, So here's my question. What
do you suggest for the girlfriend or the friend or
the family member who is sitting in observation of something. So,
(46:21):
what do you suggest for the family member when you're
a family member, your friend, whoever the person is, comes
to you, yeah, to talk to you about what's happening
in a relationship that is not the most healthy relationship
for them.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Yeah. Yeah, I would start with asking for permission and
asking what the other person needs, so being able to say,
do you want me to be a listener right now?
Are you? Are you open to receiving feedback? I actually
have some thoughts are you willing to hear what I
have to say? And it gives the onus on the
(47:00):
other on that friend or whoever it is that you
are talking to to really just check in and understand
for them to check in and understand what's going on,
or am I really in a space to receive some
feedback right now? Or am I really needing somebody to listen?
Because some communication is there's a center and a receiver,
right If this person is not necessarily ready to hear
(47:22):
your feedback, then it could rupture the relationship. But I
think just that question, you don't have to figure it
out for yourself. You don't have to make these guests.
Just just just ask, hey, can you do you have
space for this right now? Or what do you need
from me right now? Right right right?
Speaker 1 (47:40):
So yeah, I would be and help back, okay, and
helping that person just to have is being a safe
space for that person, you know, So often we have
so many opinions about what other people should be doing,
or should be feeling, or you know, all of that,
all the stuff, you know, right, and it is you know,
if a person is coming to you to vent, If
(48:02):
a person is coming to you, it's because they've been
trust They trust you enough to share this very vulnerable
part of their life experience. It's one thing to come
and talk about all the things that are going great,
and it takes a lot of courage and vulnerability to
come to people that you trust with information about your
(48:25):
life experience that maybe you feel a little bit of
a shame, a little bit of shame about you. And
so you know, I think it's important to check yourself
at the door of that conversation and understand that if
a person is coming to you to share and bear
that part of their experience, they're doing it because they
(48:46):
trust you and to do something with that trust.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Right, And you just reminded me of one other thing
that I want to add. Yay, Yeah, just this one
piece of sometimes take moving away from the context, you know,
away from the story, moving away from the narrative and
dropping down to the feeling. Just imagine what this person
is going through emotion? Are they in pain? Are they frustrated?
(49:10):
Are they are they her? Are there jealousy? And sometimes
it's easier to relate to another person if you drop
down to the emotion, because you know, it's not that
you've always gone through the same experiences that somebody has,
but we have all felt all the emotions at one
point in our lives. Yes, So going back to what
will this person feel like? It may not be about
(49:33):
you know, you have all these opinions about what they
think they should do. Then let's drop down to the feeling.
And it takes courage to do that too.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
It's on both sides, on both sides, exactly, on both sides.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Yeah, it's all about connection, right, it is.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
It is, That's what it boils down to.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
So Camille, thank you so much again. Yes, yeah, thank
you for your generosity, thank you for your willingness to
continue the conversation and go down this you know, go
through this other door. It's such an important topic, I believe,
(50:12):
and it's such a thing that so many people struggle with.
And you know, hearing the wise voice of someone who
does this, you know, this is your thing, and I
really really appreciate your willingness too, and generosity again to
share your perspective on helping people to heal and to
(50:38):
look at things a different way and to try, you know,
some new things, you know, you know, try something new.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Yes, yeah, the thing that you're doing now is not
working that we've got to try something different.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
Seriously, yeah, seriously.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
Yeah, Well, thank you for having me. I love having
these conversations. Hopefully some tidbits that people can take away,
whether that's just one thing or many things.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Yeah, and again, Camille, how can so if you are
a person who is in this situation, in a situation
of struggling in any relationship, including a relationship in their
professional life, and especially if you're a person who is
(51:27):
in parallel navigating the corporate landscape, you know, then that
is the and I'm kind of speaking to You're that's
the person that you want to talk to you right, exactly,
Like if you're dealing with that and then you're walking
in the next day and your boss is like look
yes and they're like, ah, they described that person perfectly, right,
(51:51):
So Camille Tenerife is the person you want to talk to.
And you're working now you you're a licensed psychotherapist, the
La area, right.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
That's correct. Yeah, but it's everything is virtual right now.
I do see clients all over the state of California.
So yes, if you are wanted to maybe expand a
little bit more on the things that we have talked about,
maybe how do I how do I set a boundary?
How do I even say that all of those things?
Definitely visit either my website. I have a ton of
(52:23):
blog posts on how to do that. So that's okay
Diversified Therapy LA dot com. And then I'm happy to
answer any other questions. So everybody is open to sending
me an email at Camille at Diversified Therapy LA dot com.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Absolutely, and we will have all that information in the
show notes for you and Camille, you are wonderful. Thank
you so much, Thank you so much.
Welcome to the Shaping Freedom with Lisan Bosquia podcast. This
is your host, Lysan. So I am really excited you
guys and gals, because I had a h There was
an episode that was recorded back in May. It's called
the Girlfriend Happy Hour Chat. And what I did during
(00:27):
that conversation was I got together with a bunch of
my girlfriends and we got together to have a conversation
about all kinds of things. It was kind of like
a happy hour chat. And one of the topics that
we talked about that of course, always comes up whenever
a bunch of you know, girlfriends get together. I don't
know what guys do, but you know, I'm assuming they
(00:48):
do the same thing is we started talking about the
topic of relationships and it was a pretty lively conversation
that I really enjoyed because I just love talking to
my girlfriends, and we talked about One of the topics
that came up was the topic of relationships where some
(01:11):
of the behaviors in the other person are behaviors that
are less than ideal. And in that conversation we talked
the topic of narcissism came up and that sent us
down a different path of the conversation that I quite
(01:32):
frankly got a little bit of flack for and my position.
I got a little flack for my position during that conversation.
And so a couple of weeks ago or a few
months ago, I had a conversation and had the pleasure
of chatting with my next guest about the topic of
(01:52):
corporate persona. And my next guest is a psychotherapist working
in the area and who focuses a lot of her
work on the idea of corporate persona. And so that
was the conversation. It was a conversation of helping people
(02:16):
who are navigating the corporate landscape to do so in
a way that also helps them to stay true to
the person that they are. Well after the conversation was over,
I thought about this topic, about this girlfriend happy hour chat,
(02:37):
and I thought about the fact that I wanted to
close the loop on that conversation by addressing the concerns
that a few people had and reached out to me about,
which was what they thought I was saying about relationships
and about narcissistic behavior. And so I won't give it
(02:59):
away here, but I do encourage you to go ahead
and listen to this conversation that I am having this
week with Camille Tenerife. So, Camille, you and I had
a conversation a few weeks ago, maybe a couple of
(03:20):
months ago at this point, at the beginning of the summer.
That's great, yes, and I loved chatting with you. And
we don't know each other. We don't know each other
outside of the couple of times that we you know,
the last time and this time that we're having the
opportunity to chat. And one of the things that came
(03:40):
up for me during our last conversation was that I
wanted you to have a conversation with my audience, to
chat about relationship things, to get a little to take
a deeper dive into relationships, and not just romantic relationships,
(04:02):
but relationships overall, and more specifically about the the some
unhealthy behavior patterns that people sometimes repeat. And just to
kind of set this up in to bring some context
(04:23):
to it, there is an episode and I don't remember
the episode number right now, audience, but there is an
episode that we recorded several months ago that I titled
girlfriend Chat, and the purpose of that conversation was to
talk about relationships. You know, a few of my girlfriends
(04:45):
and I got together on this, you know, on the podcast,
and we just jammed out about relationships, and one of
the topics that came up in that during that conversation
was the topic of narcissism. And I made a comment
during that conversation that I got some flack four that
(05:08):
I want to clarify now. And the comment that I
made was a comment about not focusing so much on narcissism,
or that that's great, you know that a person's a narcissist,
and what's more important is focusing on the ways that
(05:32):
we're showing up and being in relationship. And that got misconstrued,
I think as me saying that that's not an issue,
that that's not a problem, and that I was almost
making that an insignificant thing, and I just wanted to
in this conversation clarify that that is not what I
(05:55):
meant at all. And what I was saying is that
it is one thing for us to point our fingers
at other people and at their behaviors that could very
well be shitty, and it is another and more productive
thing to take a look at the ways that we're
showing up in relationship. And so that is the purpose
(06:17):
of this conversation today. So that's like a really long
intro to welcome again my new friend Camille Tenerife, who
is a licensed therapist working out of LA and to
(06:38):
welcome you back to the Shaping Freedom podcast to chat
about this very delicate topic of relationships.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Hi, thanks for having me back. I'm happy to be here.
I really enjoyed our previous conversation. And as we're giving
that intro, I am just itching to share a ton
of feedback, yes, or just thoughts around all of this.
But I think what's really important it was I'm glad
(07:09):
that you were able to kind of have that long
intro because it was really important to maybe clarify and
really just have the courage to come back to this conversation,
even if it's already been critiqued one way or another.
So I'm glad that this space is here or for that.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, thank you, thank you. So, you know, we were
having this conversation and I don't remember how we got
into this, but I think it was after the conversation
was over our last convo and I think I'm just like,
you know, what, girl, do you want to have? This
is what happened? Right, And i'd love to circle back
(07:46):
to this thing because it is huge and my position
an entire message, and the reason why I found it
shaping freedom, and all of the tenants of shaping freedom
are around helping people to take one hundred percent accountability
(08:07):
for the world that they're in. And I believe that
we are so much better and so much happier once
we're willing to take accountability for our own lives and
for the world, for the world that we are creating
on the periphery of the person that we are, and
(08:28):
part of that is relationship. And so you know, if
you are on social media or just in conversations, you know,
I myself have been part of hundreds of conversations with
girlfriends where we're talking about something that happened, or even
male friends where there's something that happened where it's like
she sucked and she did this thing, and she hurt
(08:51):
me this way, or he cheated on me, or he
made me feel this way or made me feel that way.
And there is the venting conversation that sometimes we can
enjoy having or where we get some of the validation
you know that we sometimes want or desire. And then
(09:13):
there comes a point I believe where there needs to
be some accountability for what's happening in our lives, you know, Yeah,
so I wanted I wanted some support from you and
having that conversation and talking a little bit about relationships
(09:35):
and you know, the kind of things that you're hearing
and what your thoughts are on this topic of relationship,
and you know, we can dabble a little bit into
the into narcissism and what it means and all of that,
if that feels good to both of us. Uh, And
what I'd really like is to have some conversation about accountability.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Sure. Sure, I mean I have the same convers as
a therapist and in my personal life about relationships. And again,
no matter what it is, it could be relationships with
a romantic partner, but it could also be family friendship,
either relationships at work right with colleagues or your bosses.
So it really does show up in our lives and
(10:19):
in conversations naturally. I like what you said about the accountability,
and I think a good place to start is really
talking about this having space for everything that you had
just shared. And what I mean by that is true,
a person can be whatever label you want to use.
(10:40):
It you know, kind of or use for it, narcissistic tendencies,
they could be, their behaviors might have hurt you, or
all of these things. And at the same time, I
think that there is also a part of that accountability
that you're talking about. Right, we can validate that somebody
had cost you pain and had hurt you, and also
(11:02):
understand that what is looking at what is my role
in this? What's my apartment it? Oftentimes I think people
see it as black and white or either or it's
either that person is wrong and I'm hurt, or you know,
it's nothing is my fault, it's all their fault. But
the reality is both of us or both of the
people in each party could be responsible for the dynamic
(11:24):
that's going on or that came into play. It doesn't
it doesn't, I guess, neglect or or invalidate the hurt
that you've had if you start to look at the
accountability piece.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
So I love yeah, And one thing that popped up
for me is I love that you refer to that
inquiry into like, what's the role that I played in this?
And oftentimes people hear that and they immediately start thinking
again again. Girlfriends, all the girlfriends. We start thinking about
(12:08):
role that I played in it. I didn't tell him
to go do blah blah blah or her or you
know whatever the relationship is, role that I played in that.
I didn't ask my boss to be a micromanager or
to be rude to me or whatever or whatever those
circumstances are. And so can you explain a little bit
(12:31):
what you mean by role in it? Just because I
know that as that's like a and I hate using
this word, but I'm going to use it. It's like a
trigger point for so many peoples, right like role I played,
what I do? I was like the best woman on earth?
You know, absolutely?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah? And I think that there is maybe from what
you've described, coming from a place of blame, like I'm
blaming you for how another person behaved. But the reality
is there is those two are independent of each other.
I mean, we our behaviors affect everybody one way or another,
and so do other people. But when I guess, when
(13:08):
I say role in it, it could be one of
two ways. One is, what is my responsibility in maybe
allowing this to continue to happen? Maybe what was my
responsibility in not noticing this earlier? And that's not blame,
but also the other role in it of once I've
(13:29):
already realized that this is no longer healthy for me,
what is my role into in my next move, in
my next move for something that's related to my healing
and what's good for me at that point, So it
could be Again I want to stress that it's not
because of somebody else's that we are we're in charge
(13:50):
of somebody else's behaviors because we have actually zero control
over that, over people's emotions, their behaviors or thoughts, but
the only thing that we have control over is our own,
our own resoughts and emotions. So that's what I mean
by our role in it of one, what am I
doing to perpetuate this, whether that's subconscious or conscious and role?
(14:15):
And the next one is what is my role in
the context of now I know this information, what am
I going to do with it?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Exactly exactly? And I think I'll give my own example. Right, So,
I was in a relationship with someone and there were
some things that happened in the relationship that really were
about had less to do with the way that I
felt about this man because I loved him deeply and
(14:43):
more to do with where he was, yeah, in his
own relationship with himself, and where he was in the
health of his relationship with himself and his ability to
be in a health the relationship with me or anyone
else for that matter, right, because a lot of times
(15:04):
we take it personally, we're like, it is all about me, well,
and in fact it's not right. Yes, And so during
the course of this particular relationship, and I can think
of like all the times that I've been in the
situation in my life, you know, professionally or others where
once I got past the well that person did this
(15:25):
and you know this boss did that. Once I got
past that, there was this moment for me in this
particular situation I'll stay there where after I got through
repeating all the things, the terrible things that I could
point to, you know, you did this, you did that,
(15:47):
you did this, you do that, I had this moment
of realization, Camille. And I remember I was like sitting
on my bed and I was just sitting there like
in nothingness, right, and what came up for me and
it just like kind of very gently, kind of made
its way from the core of my being and it
(16:07):
was like, you know, I'm really sorry, Leisan that I
didn't listen right. And so what I realized was that
while I had put front and center the ways that
this person betrayed me through their behaviors and I'm not
(16:30):
diagnosing another person because it's not my place to do that,
where I was able to list out one, two, three,
all the ways that this person betrayed me, all the
things this person did at the end of the day,
I had been speaking to myself all along and choosing
(16:50):
to ignore myself, and that little voice that was like, girl,
you know, this shit ain't right girl, what you're doing,
you know? And then this conflict on the inside, right,
like leaves ass, no, just wait, I think we can
(17:11):
work it out, like all those conversations that people have
when they're in an unhealthy relationship with themselves, right. And
So while I was able to sit there and lay
out all the ways that I had been not treated
(17:31):
well or the ways that this person's behavior had impacted me,
sure at the end of the day, the person who
was the biggest betrayer of Leissan was Leissan. Yeah, because
there was a point in the relationship where I knew
in my heart of hearts that this was not the
thing that needed to be happening. This was not the
(17:54):
world that I needed to be living in. And the
truth of the matter, the truth of the matter is
that had I in that moment, that very first time,
said Yo, how's this love you?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
But no love you?
Speaker 1 (18:10):
But I got a boundary and you're all up on
the other side into my space with this boundary, and
here's the thing, you go and but get healthy. I
care about you enough to really want to be with you,
and you need to go and get healthy. And then
you know, And it doesn't mean like leaving it hanging forever.
(18:32):
It doesn't mean that the door's always open. But it
would have meant had that happened, it would have meant
that he would not have been placed in a position
to continue to have these behaviors with me, and I
wouldn't have been in a position of continuing to have
(18:53):
this long list of shit, dumb shit that he did
to make my life miserable.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Yes, yes, right, uh huh. And that is so that's
so beautiful that you were able to get to that
place and that really just high. Yes, And I was
going to say that it just speaks to that this
is all a process. Anything and everybody is on their
own timeline when it comes to these things, and as
(19:19):
long as you give yourself the space and the time
to really check in with yourself, is to check in
with ourselves, sometimes the answers will inevitably come and just
as it did for you. But it does take a
little bit of stepping away from a situation to get
some clarity. It's hard to see it when you're when
you're right in the way that I kind of think
(19:40):
about it sometimes is watching a scary movie and as
you're the audience, you're watching it, and you know, like,
why won't you just run on the opposite side of it,
or why won't you just yes, what are you doing?
It's not that difficult. Why are you answering the phone?
Hurry up? But the person and who's in it? I mean,
(20:01):
I know that it's a movie, but is similar to that, right,
can't necessarily don't have the same perspective asset audience does.
So I think it's the same for people going through
the difficult relationships or what's going on whatever with whatever's
going on with the situation, is that it is a
little bit more difficult to see those things and to
(20:22):
give yourself a little bit more time to really understand
what's happening. And so that's the purpose of like I mentioned,
we talked about the slash SIME therapy and journaling and
self reflection and getting feedback from people who have your
best interests at heart. Right, those are really important key points.
But to my point earlier, just like you said, you know,
(20:44):
that was your role, right, that was your role was
to be able to stop enabling this behavior from this
previous partner, and also to say, hey, this is enough.
I don't have to be someone who's receiving the consequences
(21:05):
of somebody else's pain.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And for me to stop enabling the behavior from myself
absolutely more importantly for me more importantly, like you're not
about to sit here and act like this is not
going on and then blame this and demonize this other
human being. Right, that's not what you're gonna do. This
is my conversation with myself. And so for me, and
(21:40):
again that is just one example, and relationships are like
we just love talking relationships. That's the only reason that
I'm bringing that one example up. But that example, you know,
in all areas of our life, even you know, for
those of us who are parents. It's the same thing.
It's like, why does this kid? I raise teenagers? And
(22:03):
so I know that there are many times, you know,
during the course of my raising teenagers that I would
say things like, you know, why does this one keep
doing this thing over and over and over again. But
the real question is why am I not sending a
boundary right right and applying some consequences. And it doesn't
(22:24):
mean like harsh, you know, this is a child, this
is this is these are you know, these are people
who are you part of my blood? Right, So not
the consequences of like you know, going up against them, right,
really sitting down and thinking through this is something that's
happening in my life that is not good for me.
It's not good for this person, this teenager, this boss, whoever?
(22:47):
What am I going to do about that?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Yeah? And that's so important, even if we take it
on on a grand, bigger scheme, it is so important
because then it teachs It's an opportunity if the other
person will ticket to really teach, like, hey, this is
actually okay and instead of walking around the world continuing
to hurt other people or not understanding their impact on
(23:09):
other people, when we actually need other people. So it's
that feedback is really good because then it just strengthens
the relationship that we will have moving forward if we
choose to see it that way. Absolutely, it is actually
beneficial for your in your in your case, for your
children because it does it doesn't have to get into
a worse situation later on in life than you are
(23:32):
now teaching them, Hey, this is how this is impacting me.
This is it's not okay, And it does help them
relate to other people moving forward, whether that becomes in
their personal relationships, romantic relationships, or the way that they
are at ork whatever that may be, it's going to
be it's going.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
To come up right or when they have their children.
Because this is like family legacy, right, So it's like,
how do you what can we do to help ourselves
to be a cleaner vessel through which we channel, Yeah,
the emotional legacy of our for our family. You know,
what can I do to get clearer about what I'm
(24:13):
accountable for and the areas that I need to work
on so that I can pass something cleaner on to
my children Joseph and Jessica, so that they can then
clean up whatever they need to clean up in order
to pass forward to their children.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yes, and we know, and there's science that backs up
how much we're impacted and affected by the way that
we had watched our parent, parent us and grandparents, you know,
all of our caregivers for that matter. So it is impactful.
Even if we think that they're not watching, they're absolutely
watching absolutely, yes, yeah, and getting programmed yeah yeah, without
(24:54):
even thinking about it, right, they're just making yeah, what
they're seeing.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I do want to share a little bit about what
you had talked about with narcissism a little bit there,
and again, just like you, I'm not here to diagnose
anyone that I'm not seeing I'm.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
But you're in a better position to do it.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yes, so do it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
No.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
What I will say though, is that I think, again,
going back to that black and white thinking, a lot
of people either classify somebody as a narcissist or not.
What's important to note is that each and every one
of us actually have We all have a narcisstic tendency
or a trait, but it doesn't mean in the field
(25:36):
of mental health typically when we diagnose someone or make
it official in that sense. There are a couple factors
involved there, So that means maybe a list of symptoms.
If you're experiencing three out of the seven, for example,
then that qualifies a diagnosis, or maybe if you're experienced
in experiencing something more days in the week than not.
(25:58):
So it's not as simple as oh, you exhibit this
behavior and now you are a narcissist, or you are
depressed or you have anxiety. I think that it's important
to note that we're human and we're allowed to feel
selfier sometimes, and we're allowed to be jealous and allowed
to feel sad and upset without really having a rational
(26:18):
reason for it. But it doesn't necessarily mean that we
are there's a diagnosis there, so something important to note.
So I think that was that's really important. A lot
of the times, I think people want the diagnosis to
try and understand and make sense, try to kind of
wrap something in their minds that's really hard to make
(26:39):
sense of of like, okay, I can classify it to
this one. But it does come back to regardless of
a diagnosis or not, it does come back to asking
yourself of what do I want here? What are my needs?
What are my non negotiables in a relationship? Are they
crossing these boundaries again, regardless of what the other person
(27:01):
is going through. Diagnosis is important for context, right, But
at the end of the day, we are in charge
of taking care of ourselves, and so it is important
to be able to recognize some of the things, whether
we label it or not, that are actually already harming
us and they're no longer good for us, and being
(27:22):
able to say that's enough. Another I think important piece
to that is sometimes I think there's also the opposite
end of it, meaning and I see this with a
lot of people who are more empaths and caregivers and
maybe highly sensitive people of what could I have done?
I wish I did something differently for that person to
(27:44):
not do this. So you and I are talking about
one end of it of what's my role in it,
what's my responsibility in it? Right, But other people go
on the opposite end of it, of like I could
have done this instead, then he wouldn't do this to me.
If I had done this instead, then she wouldn't have
done this to me, and so on and so forth.
I think that's also important to acknowledge because it is
(28:04):
the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yes, absolutely, I'm glad you brought that up.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, and it does boil down to again that we
are not responsible for somebody else's emotions, behaviors, and their thoughts.
I think important to stress a lot of the times
the control piece. If I wish I could have done this,
I could have done that is coming from a place
of again exactly that wanting to get controlled into something
(28:30):
that is actually not in your a false sense of control,
imagining what it would be like if I had just
done things differently. Right. But I think this is where
some self compassion can come in and understand that, yeah,
I had nothing to do with that. Even if I
did do something incorrectly, someone treating me poorly isn't necessarily
(28:54):
the quote unquote right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
And so what do you suggest, you know, because I
love to talk of the how right? Yeah, So I
mean I don't know, if you know, is there like
a list that says, you know, if a person does
these ten things, SHOT's what it means? And well, why
don't we go there first?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
And then I have Yeah, I think that's different for everyone.
So I think I kind of get what you're you're saying.
It's kind of like, what do you do once you've
gotten to understand that you've gotten to this realization. But
I think first and foremost is to really figure out
what is important to me. What are like I mentioned earlier,
your non negotiables and when, and what are your boundaries?
(29:35):
And when you have a hard time figuring that out,
go back to your value system, go back to what's
really important to me as a human being. And once
you go there you can kind of formulate what your
boundaries are, because what mine are are going to be
different than yours, different to Sally's, and different to somebody else's.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, So that's the important piece. And so I think
the next thing would be getting a little bit more
curious about your emotional responses. So say, for example, that
one thing that your partner did, or your boss did,
or whoever had really impacted you and hurt you. I
(30:16):
would get curious with yourself versus as to why. You
may not always come to the answer as to you know,
it might not trace it to childhood or things of
that sort, but as to why it affected you and
impacted you in that way, And oftentimes it will give
you some clarity that either one, oh that's a boundary
I didn't know. I didn't have so I get to
set that now and communicate that with the other person,
(30:39):
or I didn't realize that felt familiar, like a previous
relationship that I've had, and this is exactly what that
person did to me, And so maybe I'm not healed
from that just yet or whatever. It could be, right,
everyone's different, But the way to understand it is to
really just go go inward.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
To do that inquiry, which is something that so many
people are so you know, it's I don't want to
put that on people, but it can be scary, very scary,
which I think, yeah, which I think is why people like, well, Bob,
did let me tell you about Bob? Yes, but it's like,
(31:19):
let me tell you all about Bob, and we're not
going to talk about me. We're not going to talk
about the fact that Bob is just Fred. That was Sam,
that was.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Exactly and being maybe even one of your caretakers exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
So I don't want to do that inquiry because that
could be painful, you know. And so I think that's
part of the reason why you know, we we are
people are so quick to kind of like you know,
look to you know, shove a quiz under someone else's
nose to help them to diagnose themselves.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, it's hard, it really is.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
People go their entire life without necessarily a needing to
or wanting to look at this. But the consequence of
that is really again that passed down behaviors and the
maybe belief system onto the next generation and next generation,
like you were sharing a little bit, Yeah, yeah, there's
just some consequences to it.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Absolutely well, yeah, and I think there are consequences for
us and for the person, and we have to do
That's what boundary setting it's about, Yes, right, like, okay,
what are if this happens? You know, what are the
consequences of this kind of behavior and also considering what
the consequences are to you in being with a person
(32:40):
that exhibits these kind of behaviors. Sure, you know, because
again I know, you know, when I was a teenager,
I used to read you know, all the like Cosmo, Cosmopolitan,
all these different magazines that all have the quizes and
alls are like to tell you how jacked up another
person is. Okay, like you know, do you think he's
(33:03):
blah blah blah? And then you kind of go through it,
you know, does he love you? Like all kinds of things, right,
you do it? And the question that comes up for
me even in the conversations I have and so with
my girlfriends that I've actually sat down and you know,
broke bread with and clinked wine glasses with. You know,
it's like, we'll have this conversation about, well, this guy's this,
and he's terrible and he's just a blah blah blah.
(33:25):
And my question is a question that this may send
a little rude, It could be like my Brooklyn thing,
but it's like, so what he's you know, he's an
awful person, he's a narcissist. Maybe he's a this, he's
a that, So what you know? What does that mean? Actually?
And I got that from having worked in corporate and
(33:48):
I had a senior leader who would say that, you know,
whenever somebody came with a problem, you know, his response
would always be okay, so what not in a bad way,
but just okay. So now we know that this is
what this person is doing. Now we know what this
person's behaviors are, and now we know that you don't
like this person's behaviors. They don't you know, they don't
(34:10):
align with your values. So what what are you going
to do about it now, right, you know? And then
that's where you know, reaching out to a therapist like yourself,
or you know, some kind of a personal growth program
like mine, or really getting into inquiry and into creating
(34:36):
a space for yourself to heal and to understand, to
figure out what the so what actually needs to be
sure in order to kind of course correct back to
or forward to that way that you really want to
be living in the behaviors that you really want to
have in your life.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
And I think to add on to that, in the
content of romantic relationships, for example, it doesn't necessarily mean
it's always going to end up in leaving that person
or ending up on a breakup. It could also be
again information to say that, oh yeah, like I mentioned earlier,
it just could be a boundary or I'd love to
talk to you about this. And I think that these
(35:18):
arguments are opportunities for a deeper connection because it helps
the other person understand you a little bit more, and
you get to understand the other person a little bit
more if you both allow yourself to do that. And
I think with programs like ours, the important piece before
even the so what, what's the action piece there, because
(35:39):
I do believe that you have to change your behaviors
in order to change the way that you feel. But
maybe as even acknowledging how we feel first it sucks
that he or she or they treated you that way.
It's absolutely painful or frustrating, and whatever other emotion is there,
(36:01):
and stay in that space for as long because we
need not ruminating it because it could be unhealthy and
not helpful. But to just yeah that if I were
in that shoes, I would feel the same exact way,
and it's.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
A validation to a friend or someone that's sharing this
with you.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah yeah, and then that or that's really scary or
whatever that is, and say, Okay, now that we've gone there,
now what can we do to help move forward? I
think it's the it's the humanness and all of us.
We just kind of want to stay connected and understood.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Right right, I agree, And in the absence of other
people having that quow with yourself.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Yeah, correct, that's where the self compassion comes in. Yeah,
I don't. It's not just validating validation from other people.
We could also validate our own experiences. So one thing
I will share is that feelings are not always fad.
You know, emotions are important, but people who kind of
go through like anxiety or fear of whatever it is,
(37:07):
it's not just because we feel fear, it doesn't mean
that we're in danger. Right just because we feel anxious,
it doesn't necessarily mean that something bad is happening. So
we can validate our emotions and say, Okay, I'm feeling
fear right now, that's okay, or I'm feeling stressed from
my relationship right now, but it doesn't necessarily mean we
get to predict what's going that the our prediction based
(37:30):
off our emotions is true.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Absolutely. Yeah, It's funny you said something before about like
it not necessarily meaning that you and that person have
to end the relationship. And what that that came up
for me is, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
I think sometimes we confuse showing up one hundred percent
in a relationship with showing up one hundred percent on
that person's behalf. You know, So I was thinking I
dated someone recently and we you know, there was some
conversation about like fifty fifty, and you know, showing up
(38:10):
the difference between fifty to fifty and and showing up
one hundred percent, like each person showing up one hundred
percent in the relationship. And so even if you're in
a situation where that other person has these behaviors, you know,
I believe that we have a personal accountability and responsibility
(38:32):
to show up one hundred percent for the relationship. So
that does not mean that showing up one hundred percent
means you know, like we you know sometimes you know
that do or die thing. That's not what that means.
It doesn't mean I'm showing up one hundred percent in
the relationship. And what that means is that you can
crap all over me. Yes, you know, and I'm here,
(38:55):
I'm your woman, I'm your man. Keep treating me badly. Right,
That is a very different thing than showing up one
hundred percent, meaning you're I'm checking myself in this relationship.
I'm ensuring that I'm showing up in as healthy a
(39:16):
way as I can for our combined relationship and allowing
you to live in your lane and me to live
in my lane. And I'm not trying to hop over
and like micro control your situation.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, right, because what happens when you swerve into somebody's lane.
You can get into car accidents and persolutely. Yeah. Good,
So saying and your lane is really is healthy. And
at the same time that if you do show up
for the intention of changing another person's feelings to make
them feel differently than they are, it's robbing them of
(39:50):
the experience of what that specific emotion is, trying to
teach them, what that specific situation is, trying to teach them.
We can support and love and care for another person,
but it's not for us to take that for us
to take those emotions away, so love it. Otherwise, that
bleeds into the codependency, which is a whole other topic. Yeah,
(40:13):
which is a whole other thing. But I'd love that
you shared that. It's just showing up for the relationship,
and part of showing up one hundred percent for their
relationship is taking care of yourself too. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
So three tips.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
If a person were to be in a situation where
they're like, hmmm, I don't know, the person's taking a
lot more room on this bench, then you know they're
knocking me off the bench. It's all about them. You
have any tips for a person in that situation?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, I know you do. Yeah. The first thing, I'm
gonna just echo what I had said a little bit
ago was to get curious. That is the first first piece.
Sometimes when we assume what something else is something about
what's going on, sometimes it can lead us into I mean,
(41:18):
for storytellers as human beings, so we'll create this narrative
that may not necessarily be exactly true. So get curious.
See the second piece would probably get vulnerable and share
that with whoever that is. So to have a little
bit of be courage and bravery to say, hey that
(41:39):
this actually doesn't feel good. I don't have to have
the answers or to solutions, but I'm just sharing to
you that my experience is not necessarily the best right now.
And then the last piece is a personal reminder of
that self compassion. I think what reminded me was what
you shared a little bit ago. Just because I show
up for another person, it doesn't necess sssarily mean that
(42:02):
you get to be mean to me or yell at
me or whatever it is. I'm not your punching bag.
So a reminder of just because somebody is going through
a difficult time, it does not give them the license
to be mean to you, right, So setting some boundaries
around that, so curiosity, get vulnerable and self compassion.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
I love that. I wanted to say one thing. I
love the fact that you talked about getting vulnerable, because
I think what happens so often is we're so afraid
of being judged, and we're so afraid, especially those of
us who are like we're out here and we're doing
these huge things in the world, and we're like, you know,
doing the thing right, yeah, and who you know, it's
(42:49):
a lot harder to share sometimes you know that you
know I'm doing all the things, and you know I'm
in the situation that you know may not be the best.
And so happens a lot of times is that we
can go into isolation. You know, it's and you know,
(43:09):
just to be isolated in our pain is so much
more painful than the very thing that we can be
afraid of, which is judgment. And so you know, I
just encourage people to and I love that you mentioned
that find someone that you trust. You know, sometimes that
(43:31):
is the first step, right, find someone that you trust
and someone that you can just bear what's going on to.
Because what that does is, first of all, it engages
your community and people that love you and care about
you in your solution, just like they're helping you with
the solutions for all the other stuff. Right, You're giving
(43:54):
them the opportunity to show up for you. And secondly,
it gives you the chance to engage them so that
you can see your situation a little more clearly. Yeah,
you know, sitting there in our own heads running around.
I know, for me, when I'm running around up in here,
sometimes it's like I'm telling a lot of stories. Yeah,
(44:16):
I can tell some stories for real, exactly. Yeah, And
so I think that's so important. I'm glad you mentioned that,
because isolation, I think is such a painful thing and
I've done it. I've watched friends do it. You know,
I have clients who have done it, and it's just always,
you know, not the best way to handle something. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Yeah, I agree completely. I second that and I will
always second that is and I share that in my
first Yeah, Ito's chat with you is that the community
is so it.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Really is, really is. And the four I would add
a fourth thing too, Yeah, that's okay, let's add it seriously,
and that is don't about taking things personally. Take you know,
don't take things so personally. Understand that sometimes when things happen,
we believe that it's really all about us, you know,
(45:11):
and when in fact, it has nothing to do with you.
It has everything to do with what that person's situation is,
or where they are in their journey, the kind of
pain that they're in, or whatever it is that's going on.
And I think that, you know, not taking things personally
and trying very hard not to be defensive can really
(45:32):
help us to see things a lot more clearly and
find a way through, you know, to the next chapter
for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Absolutely. I think that a lot of times you want
to make it about us because we want to control
a situation, but their reality is it's not in an
offensive way. Is that it really just isn't about Yes, Yeah,
I love that fourth Thay, I'm glad you added it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Now if you have five more minutes, one more question
if that's okay, okay, Yeah, So here's my question. What
do you suggest for the girlfriend or the friend or
the family member who is sitting in observation of something. So,
(46:21):
what do you suggest for the family member when you're
a family member, your friend, whoever the person is, comes
to you, yeah, to talk to you about what's happening
in a relationship that is not the most healthy relationship
for them.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Yeah. Yeah, I would start with asking for permission and
asking what the other person needs, so being able to say,
do you want me to be a listener right now?
Are you? Are you open to receiving feedback? I actually
have some thoughts are you willing to hear what I
have to say? And it gives the onus on the
(47:00):
other on that friend or whoever it is that you
are talking to to really just check in and understand
for them to check in and understand what's going on,
or am I really in a space to receive some
feedback right now? Or am I really needing somebody to listen?
Because some communication is there's a center and a receiver,
right If this person is not necessarily ready to hear
(47:22):
your feedback, then it could rupture the relationship. But I
think just that question, you don't have to figure it
out for yourself. You don't have to make these guests.
Just just just ask, hey, can you do you have
space for this right now? Or what do you need
from me right now? Right right right?
Speaker 1 (47:40):
So yeah, I would be and help back, okay, and
helping that person just to have is being a safe
space for that person, you know, So often we have
so many opinions about what other people should be doing,
or should be feeling, or you know, all of that,
all the stuff, you know, right, and it is you know,
if a person is coming to you to vent, If
(48:02):
a person is coming to you, it's because they've been
trust They trust you enough to share this very vulnerable
part of their life experience. It's one thing to come
and talk about all the things that are going great,
and it takes a lot of courage and vulnerability to
come to people that you trust with information about your
(48:25):
life experience that maybe you feel a little bit of
a shame, a little bit of shame about you. And
so you know, I think it's important to check yourself
at the door of that conversation and understand that if
a person is coming to you to share and bear
that part of their experience, they're doing it because they
(48:46):
trust you and to do something with that trust.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Right, And you just reminded me of one other thing
that I want to add. Yay, Yeah, just this one
piece of sometimes take moving away from the context, you know,
away from the story, moving away from the narrative and
dropping down to the feeling. Just imagine what this person
is going through emotion? Are they in pain? Are they frustrated?
(49:10):
Are they are they her? Are there jealousy? And sometimes
it's easier to relate to another person if you drop
down to the emotion, because you know, it's not that
you've always gone through the same experiences that somebody has,
but we have all felt all the emotions at one
point in our lives. Yes, So going back to what
will this person feel like? It may not be about
(49:33):
you know, you have all these opinions about what they
think they should do. Then let's drop down to the feeling.
And it takes courage to do that too.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
It's on both sides, on both sides, exactly, on both sides.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Yeah, it's all about connection, right, it is.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
It is, That's what it boils down to.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
So Camille, thank you so much again. Yes, yeah, thank
you for your generosity, thank you for your willingness to
continue the conversation and go down this you know, go
through this other door. It's such an important topic, I believe,
(50:12):
and it's such a thing that so many people struggle with.
And you know, hearing the wise voice of someone who
does this, you know, this is your thing, and I
really really appreciate your willingness too, and generosity again to
share your perspective on helping people to heal and to
(50:38):
look at things a different way and to try, you know,
some new things, you know, you know, try something new.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Yes, yeah, the thing that you're doing now is not
working that we've got to try something different.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
Seriously, yeah, seriously.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
Yeah, Well, thank you for having me. I love having
these conversations. Hopefully some tidbits that people can take away,
whether that's just one thing or many things.
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Yeah, and again, Camille, how can so if you are
a person who is in this situation, in a situation
of struggling in any relationship, including a relationship in their
professional life, and especially if you're a person who is
(51:27):
in parallel navigating the corporate landscape, you know, then that
is the and I'm kind of speaking to You're that's
the person that you want to talk to you right, exactly,
Like if you're dealing with that and then you're walking
in the next day and your boss is like look
yes and they're like, ah, they described that person perfectly, right,
(51:51):
So Camille Tenerife is the person you want to talk to.
And you're working now you you're a licensed psychotherapist, the
La area, right.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
That's correct. Yeah, but it's everything is virtual right now.
I do see clients all over the state of California.
So yes, if you are wanted to maybe expand a
little bit more on the things that we have talked about,
maybe how do I how do I set a boundary?
How do I even say that all of those things?
Definitely visit either my website. I have a ton of
(52:23):
blog posts on how to do that. So that's okay
Diversified Therapy LA dot com. And then I'm happy to
answer any other questions. So everybody is open to sending
me an email at Camille at Diversified Therapy LA dot com.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Absolutely, and we will have all that information in the
show notes for you and Camille, you are wonderful. Thank
you so much, Thank you so much.
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