November 17, 2025 • 69 mins
In this episode, Lisane Basquiat speaks with Dr. Dawna Ballard—associate professor, chronemics expert, and author of Time by Design—about the truth behind our culture’s fixation on speed. Dr. Ballard explains how urgency culture impacts our communication, our bodies, and our relationships, and why slowing down is essential for clarity, connection, and sustainable progress.
They explore the difference between fast and slow communication design, the physical cost of rushing, and practical steps for redesigning your relationship with time. If you’ve ever felt overextended or stuck in “go mode,” this conversation offers grounded insight on how slowing down can actually help you move forward more effectively.
They explore the difference between fast and slow communication design, the physical cost of rushing, and practical steps for redesigning your relationship with time. If you’ve ever felt overextended or stuck in “go mode,” this conversation offers grounded insight on how slowing down can actually help you move forward more effectively.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Maybe there is a time to be in a hurry,
but that's not likely the majority of the time. When
people say we're building the car as we're driving it,
have you ever heard that that's a high to Yeah, like,
who wants to be in that car that's being built
while you're driving it? Right? It sounds like danger.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to the Shaping Freedom podcast, where we dive into
conversations that inspire personal growth, transformation and clarity and challenging times.
I'm your host, Lissan Basquiat. There's this lie that a
lot of us have swallowed, and that is that if
we just move a little bit faster, answer more emails
(00:52):
in a shorter amount of time, stack up our commitments.
If we just keep doing that, that then we'll find
catch up, and then we'll be free. Today's guest says otherwise.
Doctor Donna Ballard is an Associate Professor of Organizational Communication
and Technology at the University of Texas at Austin and
(01:16):
an expert in crunemis, the study of how time and
human communication are tied together. Her new book, Time by Design,
How Communicating Slow allows Us to Go Fast, is a
book very close to my heart, and it is coming
out mid December and available for pre order now on Amazon.
(01:38):
In it, she argues that speed is never just about
time management, that it's actually a design issue. Donna shows
that the teams and communities that actually move quickly over
the long term are the ones that have learned to
communicate slow, to build relationships, to listen, to give conversations
(01:59):
the space and air that they need so that when
it's time to act, they can actually move. In this conversation,
we'll get into what she calls fast and slow communication
design logics, what happens to our bodies and our relationships
when everything is urgent, and how each of us can
(02:19):
start redesigning our relationship with time so that we're not
just performing productivity, we're living lives that actually feel like
they're ours. If you've ever felt like you're living on
a conveyor belt and that things just don't seem to
ever line up to this place where you want them
to be, this one's for you. The one question, the
(02:49):
overarching question that I have right before I welcome Donna,
is how do we redesign our relationships with time so
that we can move faster, live better, and stop breaking
ourselves into pieces in the process. Doctor Donna Ballad, Welcome
(03:09):
to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I mentioned briefly at the beginning of the conversation, or
as we were getting prepared, that I was very excited
about having you on because I'm kind of reaching that
time of the year and I know that a lot
of listeners, a lot of people are where and I
don't know if it's twenty twenty five, but things are
moving so quickly and the expectations for our time are
(03:38):
so feel so demanding that I'm very excited to have
the opportunity to have this conversation with you, for selfish
reasons and also because I think this is a topic,
This is a conversation that so many of us need
to have.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Oh wonderful. I'm so excited to be here and to
talk with you, and your introduction just gave me chills.
You get it. You get it already, You got it?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I do, girl, I get it. I get it.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah. So you're challenging a culture that that prizes urgency,
the sense of urgency. What happened? What led you to
start this as a conversation and as a study.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
It's a long time coming. My goodness, I this started
as an undergrad at Howard. Actually, I read a book
called The Dance of Life, The Other Dimension of Time
by a cultural anthropologist when I was I think a
sophomore or a junior, and I thought, oh my goodness,
(04:55):
there is more than one way to think about time,
because I was raised that there was just there was
the right way and the wrong way, and that you know,
the right way was was really focused on speed and
destination and accumulating as much as you could when the
(05:18):
shortest amount of time. And I bought it, you know,
and and you know, and it's a it for people.
It begins really innocently, right. You just want to like
have a better life, You want to accomplish you know,
more you want and often it's driven by because I
(05:40):
saw my mom do this. She was in a lot
of helping profession She was a nurse practitioner and ran
a nonprofit that for pregnant teenagers, helping them to stay
in school and learn about parenting. So she had a lot,
you know, in civic she was politically engaged, and so
absolutely this is what you know. And my dad very
(06:02):
similar And I was there and I thought, if there's
more than one way to view time, then maybe maybe
there's a place for me to slow down, you know,
Like I was racing. I was always racing, and I,
(06:24):
you know, I you know, come from like overachieving people,
and I you know, had like a you know, almost
like a four point or three point ninety six gpa
when I even applied to grad school, and so I
just really felt like the like I got to do
more and I have to do it all perfectly. And
I was always racing around. But a friend of mine
(06:48):
wants it to struck me. So like being an undergrad
at Howard, hanging out in the yard is part of
what the undergraduate co ed experience, you know, And so
it's not that I never did. But a lot of
the times when other before hanging out, I was racing
be you know, from one place to the next. And
(07:09):
a friend of mine who was hanging out, he stopped
and mimicked me and started racing really fast and walking
really fast to mimic.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Me that mirror yeah, And I was.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Like I was like okay, okay, like okay, I see this,
and but I hadn't really realized it because when you're
in it, you don't even know. And so that like
it just struck me, and so all of these things
were happening at the same time where I learned about
this and I saw how others saw me, which was
(07:46):
really accurate, and I just thought, you know, it's maybe
there is a time to be in a hurry, but
that's not likely the majority of the time. That in fact,
there's likely the whole parts of our lives and our
work that benefit from slower time. Like I immediately thought of,
(08:11):
like do you want your customer service rep to be
in a hurry and just to be trying to get
you off the phone, or do you want them to
hear you understand like this is just me as a
I don't know, nineteen year old, Like do I want
them to be there to help me and to take
their time. Since then, like Zappos, they have like a
record for like the longest customer service call, which was
(08:33):
like I think it was more than a day. It
was something like eighteen hours or something ridiculous to I
don't exactly know how that unfolded, but.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
I'd love to know what was happening right now.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
But you know, so I realized and then in writing
this book and since writing it, I realized all along
there's been signs that there is a better way. I
thought of out as as kids, the hair and the tortoise.
We were someone what they were trying to tell, is
this a long time ago, you know? And it's so yeah,
(09:10):
so it's been a long time coming. And then I
always thought this was like a side thing, that this
was just in my own personal kind of project, and
here I am doing research. And it wasn't until like
there was a moment when I started looking at the
medical context that I thought, oh, this is throughout all
(09:32):
of my data, I am seeing that the best people
actually take their time, and that the people who are
rushing through might have some really short term gain, but
in general are not the most effective and certainly don't
have the best longevity.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Donna, let me tell you should say that a few
more times loudly for the people in the back, because
what's interesting is you mentioned you went back to the
tortoise and the hair, and I know there are all
kinds of cartoons, Saturday cartoons that come to mind now
(10:11):
that I used to watch as a child that we
all those of us who are within my age group,
watched where it really was all about speed versus taking
your time diligence instead being steadfast. But what's interesting is
that they were trying to tell us something. But at
the same time, we today live in a society and
(10:35):
I'm just talking about hours here within the United States,
a society of people who have are buying into this
idea that you got to move everything. It's like you
talk about fight or flight. There's a sense of urgency
for everything. It's built into the fabric of our conversation.
(11:00):
Hurry up and get this to you. I'll get to
you in just a minute. Like everything is about speed everything,
And I completely agree with you that that's not sustainable,
nor is it how we're designed. I don't believe.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
No, we are not. We are not. Like the in
twenty sixteen, maybe seventeen Nobel Laureates, they won the Nobel
Prize for discovering. They discovered that we all are walking
breathing clocks, and that every part of our body has
a particular rhythm and timing, and that if we try
(11:43):
to outrun, if we try to speed up, if we
try to ignore that internal clock, and we all we all,
all of ours is slightly different, but it all has
a lot of like right rhythms, and ebbs and flows,
and there's certain times you do things and certain times
you slow down. And they sat in their press release
(12:07):
that one of the biggest predictors for illness and you know,
medical problems is misalignment between our internal clock and our lifestyle,
and that if we develop a lifestyle that outpaces who
and what we are, that's where you have problems. That
(12:31):
is where you physiologically are stopped.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
So it's very serious. It is.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
It is and I know that, and I don't necessarily
always have the language for it, and I certainly haven't
done the study that you've done on it. And I'm
so excited to kind of present your information in the
face of everything that so many folks are trying to
keep up with. You're an expert in cronemics. Is that
(13:03):
how you pronounce it?
Speaker 1 (13:04):
That's it, That's how you pronounce Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
How do you explain that? What? What is that?
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Kronemis is simply the study of time as it's bound
to human communication, to relationships, to interactions. So you can
look at you know, neurological time. You can think about
time in terms of aging. There's lots of ways. There's personality,
but there is chrenemis is about the ways in which
(13:33):
we create time together through our interactions, and it is
a fundamentally relational uh resource if you want to call it,
if we want to if we want to put a
resource label on it, it's a it's a fundamentally relational process.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I'll say that, Okay, that we're all in.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
That we're all in and we are recreating it all
the time, like when you talked about where in a
world where where you know speed, we're being pushed into
speed and then when we when we acquiesce because a
lot of times we have to write, like I'm very
clear that that there's a lot of different levels of
(14:14):
agency and some people can slow down and other people
literally cannot, uh. And so this isn't to say, oh,
we the people have it all wrong. Our institutions have
it wrong. And so sometimes we have more or less
control over that. But in terms of just like what
(14:36):
the what we mean by crinemis, it's the ways that
we are recreating it together and the ways that sometimes
we attribute meaning based on time, because that's a very
a very big challenge is because of our cultural norms
(14:56):
that valorize speed and production, and this goes back to
the present ethic. This goes back to Calvinism. This is
this isn't a novel, it's it is speeding up as
technology allows us to go even faster and do more.
But the ways that we attribute sometimes you know, dedication
and care to the overwork, the constant never stopping being
(15:22):
ever available. That's you know, that's what cretamix is about.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
So you talk about to communication design logics fast and slow,
can you talk to us about what that is with
an example, because I think that this kind of will
help us to frame the conversation and also to talk
a bit more about your book.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
So a fast communication design logic is just the real
conventional you know that speed is achieved through time, through
clocks and better clocks and better schedules and better calendars
and a bunch of time management. Like that is how
we That is the way to get things done. And
(16:06):
the slow design logic, slow communication design logic shows that
actually relationships and events like the moment, like what is
before us investing in that actually is the original means
of task accomplishment and it's still the most effective. So
(16:27):
the place where I really among all my research, the
setting that struck me that really was the genesis of
Oh my gosh, this is the thing I have to
write this book. I studied children's advocacy centers and it's
a movement born in the eighties where previous, previously, when
(16:52):
there was a report of child abuse, there was no
coordination among the important people like the lawnfmith that needed
to go and make sure the perpetrator was away from
the child, the cps who were able, you know, to
make sure the child was safe, and the prosecutors who
(17:15):
needed to you know, go to court. Like all of
these different individual agencies weren't working together. And they're all
really under resourced agencies, right who who are given a
very little amount of time to do a lot, Like
their caseloads aren't like ridiculous, they're shameful really that our
(17:38):
culture allows that. And so what was happening two if
one of two things happened is people would think, well,
I'm busy on this other case, someone will get to
this child, and someone else thought, I'm busy on this case.
Someone else will get to this child, and in some
(17:59):
cases no one got there. And so this movement was
the idea of we can do better, and we can
we can get to children quickly, and we can we
can remove them quickly. We can you know, we can
do these things because speed matters, Like there are jobs
where you can put things off. You can't put things
(18:21):
off when a child is being abused and so, right
and so so the real seriousness of speed, right so,
because we're not anti speed, but the real seriousness of it.
This is what the movement was about. And so what
they realized is we need to coordinate all of these
(18:42):
individual agencies, and so they put them into teams and
they had the teams have these routine case reviews where
they just got together, set around a table, and everyone shared.
But that was a certain time on the calendar. They
knew that they were going to go to that and
they figured, yeah, like, logistically, this is going to make
(19:04):
a lot of difference because people will already have it
on their calendar and they're gonna get lots of information
and communication. So that was true. But what they then found,
which wasn't or what we found in our study, was
that through the sitting down just to do the work,
(19:25):
the coordination relationships were built, and those relationships were actually
their secret weapon in speed, in being able to move
quickly because they knew each other and they could and
and I do talk about in the book like these
people are still they work a lot, and so I,
(19:47):
you know, I don't want to say like because I
will say they will call each other at any hour, right,
because of the nature of the work they do. But
they knew who they could count on. They knew they
just know particular personalities and how will we work together
and when we're going to prosecute this case, they you know,
(20:09):
they had they built trust and so they and so
we found in our study, like we we figured, yes,
the information sharing, that's great, but we were surprised that
actually the teams that took time and set down, which
is so counterintuitive when you're busy and you don't have
enough time. It's so counterintuitive that you would be like,
(20:31):
I'm going to go to this meeting, right, And because
that's how they felt, and their supervisors often pressured them
even not to go because they're like, you don't have
time for.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
This, you don't have time for that.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, you don't have time for this. You just have
to work the case. But they found it sitting down,
you actually can work it better because you're not just
relying upon you. You are leveraging relationships around the county
that you're working in, and things get it done faster
and smoother. And they almost read each other's minds right
(21:04):
like they talk. But once you know someone really well, right,
you can predict and anticipate what they're gonna say, and
you're able to just it's like a mirror neuron they
talk about in neuroscience, where we just kind of click
and we connect and we can do things in a
(21:25):
way that you can't if you don't know someone. So
that's the perfect example of slow, right, so it seems
and so it's a misnomer that it's slow, but I
use that we're and I debate it because I know
slow people in our culture, Like what are you talking
about slow? I don't want slow, But I used it
(21:46):
to sort of be in your face that you do
have to slow down to go fast, that there's no way.
There's a metaphor that depicts fast communication design logics when
people say we're building the car as we're driving it.
Have you ever heard that? That's like a high to Yeah,
(22:06):
Like who wants to be in that car that's being
built while you're driving it? Right? It sounds like danger.
Another classic example of a fast communication design logic is
Mark Zuckerberg's famous quote, and I'm reading it to be accurate,
move fast and break things. Unless you are breaking stuff,
you are not moving fast enough. What about what? I
(22:31):
think it depends what you're breaking as to whether moving
fast and breaking things is really fast. Because then the
other area that I've studied a lot is in medicine.
Do we want a doctor who has the idea that
unless you're breaking things, you're not moving fast enough. Like
it important things lay in the balance of speed in
(22:54):
the best way, right, like getting to a patient, to
a child. So we are not anti speed. But what
a slow communication design logic is talking about your communication
and it's saying, if you don't slow down to understand
the situation, to to talk to people, to build relationships,
(23:16):
you will actually go slower and not faster, so that
the real speed is in that relationship and what it
gives you. So it's the idea that time and communication
are nonlinear, that actually more communication actually saves time versus
a fast design logic would say, oh, communication takes time.
(23:40):
I don't want I don't have time for them, and
I understand that and there, and there are certain kinds
of communication that maybe do just take up time, certainly
social like your doom scrolling certainly does.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
But but when but but in a lot of other
ways it actually saves time to just now, you.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Know, you talked in your book I described slow as
a way of treating time as transcendent, and you talked
about allowing things to unfold. And I'd love for you
to talk a little bit about that, and it really
and I know that we're still making the case for
(24:36):
slow right where it's appropriate, where it's appropriate, because sometimes
fast is appropriate, right, And what I'd love you to
do is to unpack what that looks like in a
very practical way on a day to day basis for
a person, because when you talked in the beginning about
(24:57):
you know, all these things that you don't want to
have happened fast. Again, we live in this world that says, no,
you get that thing done right now, you hurry up,
and you're rewarded and incentivized by through acceptance to be
super super fast at everything. So how do we how
do you make that case to a person who is
(25:23):
to that person who's saying, what are you talking about?
I have fifty emails. I have time for that. I
can't build a relationship with John. I just want you
to be a partner to me and collaborate with me
and work together with me and figure it out.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah. The first thing I would just acknowledge is that
it's very uncomfortable and I am you know, this is
this is work that I undertook, like I said, because
I didn't. This isn't my this wasn't my default, right,
(25:58):
this is this is something that you have to unlearn
a belief. And the thing is you mentioned fight or
flight early on. This gets to our nervous systems. And
there's a book called Scarcity that talks about when we
do feel scarcity, it actually changes our brains that we
(26:18):
don't even think the same. So I'm going to acknowledge
that this does not seem logical at the outset, and
it certainly doesn't feel comfortable or even safe. Because if
you're in fight or flight, one of two things feel
safe is either to go or to retreat, right and so,
(26:40):
and we're usually in the go and so I recognize that.
So what looks like though the idea of transcendence, I
would say, take a baby step the simplest thing, because
if you see it for yourself, then you can trust it.
This isn't like and overnight where I expect you to
(27:01):
just stop doing everything and now go into this other
path and you won't even know where. Because I do
say that that there are times we don't want a
nine to one one operator to ask us about our
life goals. We want that to write. So this is
(27:23):
not saying that there aren't places for that, but in
terms of transcendence, a simple thing is the next time
you go into a meeting, go into the meeting with
just an openness to what might be here. Because I
personally tend to not like meetings, like it's a thing
(27:44):
of ugh, you know, one more thing on my schedule.
I that's my default. I was raised in this culture.
I'm good at it. I get that. And so what
I have learned to do, though, is to say, you know, like, okay, okay,
I hear you. I hear you, sort of left brain,
(28:08):
and what if we just go into this meeting and
we're just open to what might unfold in this meeting,
and maybe it's a meeting with the person, maybe it's
a team meeting, and showing up in that way allows
you to certain things will arise because you showed up
(28:30):
like you allowed you weren't there with this. Well, let
me let me contrast it so a transactional. So the
opposite of transcendent is what we're more accustomed to when
we're in a hurry is transactionals what's in this for me?
How quickly? How can I get to what I need
and get out of this meeting? Right? How can I
just move on? So when you take that approach, can
(28:54):
I give a work example or do I need to
give just a day to day like not you.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Want she has for example works for you?
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And then whatever one one, I'll give a work one.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
I have a few examples.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I going to tie to it.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
After you use this word work word, I'll start with that.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Well.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Well, one of the examples is is in medicine, and
some doctors go in with a very clear transactional approach
of Okay, I have this much time, I need to
quickly extract this from the patient. But what I found
in my research was that other doctors go into it
(29:39):
looking at the bigger picture around does this patient one is,
if it's an existing patient, do they seem different today? Another?
And and so one one of my collaborators said that
just one of her patients. She came in and she
didn't say anything was wrong, but she noticed something seemed wrong.
(30:01):
She looked different, and so she asked about that. She
stopped and she asked, it wasn't on the agenda. And
it turns out this woman was, you know, had lost
her daughter and was suffering from depression, and so she
was able to get her help. So that could be
like life saving, different right, Or my own doctor I
(30:24):
had one where he just got to know us as
a family. And one time when my daughter was an
infant or she was like a toddler and had a
fever and like her regular pediatrician was like, oh, you
need to take her to the er. And he said,
he said, always call me if you you know, if
(30:47):
you have any questions about her, even though he was
my doctor. And he said, okay. It was something like
take this much ibuprofen and call me in two hours
and let me know. And I did and she was fine,
and I said later, I said how and the other
(31:07):
the patrician had seen her, and I said, how did
you know that that was all that it takes? Because
no one wants to take their kid to the ear
in the middle of the night, right, and you can
actually get sicker, you could. We've we've done that where
we've gone and picked up other stuff. So it's really
not a safe place to be if you don't have to.
And he said, because I know you. I know you, Donna,
(31:29):
and I know if there was it, if if she
needed to be at the ear, you would have already
been there. You wouldn't have called me. So he's just like,
you know, like and so, and I was like, he
never there was never a question where he asked me,
what are you? You know, what is your parenting styff?
He just said, observed me, you know, over a few years.
(31:52):
And so the transcendence is that we you don't know
when you will need information, you don't know, you can't
even be clear what information you're picking up. But when
you just show up and two in observance of someone's humanity,
I mean, that's really what it is. It's like I'm
(32:14):
just showing up and I may or may not get
anything out of this meeting, out of this call whatever,
but I'm just showing up. Another person needs me. I'm
just going to show up and see what is needed.
That's where the transcend it comes in.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
You in your book talk about the Chromedic Design Toolkit.
What does for the person who's listening and who says, okay,
I'm kind of starting to understand that fast all the
time maybe isn't the best thing, and maybe there's a
way an opening for me to start to allow slow
(32:52):
in a bit. Where do they start? Like, how do
you how does one design their time? What does that
look like?
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yeah, oh that's a great question. Start with what is
the communication process? So, like I said, if you are
a nine to one operator, then that's gonna quickly tell
us right, there are some just quick things you need
to do and you need to respond quickly if you're
building a relationship with someone though, and that's most of
(33:22):
what our lives are like, most of our lives are
just a series of relationships. And so if that's the case,
then you look at okay, this is I'll give you
a simple, like a really mundane, simple thing that people
can do that I've done recently. I had a lot
(33:43):
of meetings and I have a calendly link in people's
book and had I hadn't thought about the buffer time.
I thought about it for my sake not needing it.
But I realized that for my students and for my colleagues,
I don't want to have to rush off the phone
(34:04):
with them eve or the zoom call, and that they
might not have booked enough time. They might have thought
we need fifteen minutes, and this is a thirty minute thing.
But I want to respect the next person. So I've
started adding fifteen minute buffers that give me like a
window to say, Okay, I'm prioritizing the person in front
of me, and I'm not gonna rush off. I'm also
(34:27):
prioritize people behind me. And so this gives me a
chance to really listen. Because when I was doing the
quicker like okay, you know default fifteen minutes, things are
just rushed and you can't fully pay attention. So picking
one communication setting that you can just decide to reappraise
(34:51):
and maybe to give a little bit more time to
is like a simple process. And that happened about a
week ago, and I was talking with the student and
it wasn't until the very end that everything clicked, and
like within you know, the first fifteen minutes not that much,
(35:14):
but in the last like ten, so we probably talked
twenty five minutes, she got what she understood, like she
got it. We were able to like really take her
understanding our conversation to the next level because it just
took a little kind of you know, trying out different
(35:35):
you know, questions and her asking questions in different ways,
and finally we got it. And so that is a
very simple way to start, is just to pick one
communication setting and then just imagine, is there a way
that I'm that I am compressing all of our time
into too small of a space so that I feel
(35:58):
rushed and anxious whenever, you know, in the setting, And
is there a way for me to give myself more
time so that I don't feel rushed and anxious. And
I've done that in little places across my life. Even
even there's been a lot of conversation about punctuality because
(36:22):
it was kind of just an artifact of an interview
I did and then the editor picked up, ohnk, this
is about punctuality. People really care about that because there's
so much moralizing that goes on around that. And I
realized that one simple thing that because I don't I
don't moralize it. But I found that when you are
(36:46):
always rushing, then you don't get the same sort of
luxury of time to sit with your thoughts and to
sit with another person if you're rushing from than one
thing to the next. So I've actually started just saying
no to to things that I normally would have tried
(37:09):
to fit more in, Like, Okay, again, i think I'm
doing someone a favor, Sure I'll do that, Sure I'll
take this a meeting at this time, And I've just
decided that it's not serving anyone, that I'm stressed out
and more tired, that I'm not able to pay as
close attention to the person either that I'm with or
(37:32):
the next person, and that, Yeah, there's that that in
many cases, we think there's a need to do things
and we really do not have to add more in
a given saying. And sometimes it can just be no
and you and in order to fully show up for
one setting, it sometimes means there's just fewer things.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
You talked about earlier on about what happens in our bodies,
what actually does happen or how does rushing show up
in our bodies?
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Wow, Okay, so it's different for different people, like in
terms of like like, but just at a broad level. Yeah,
because I mean, for me, like I'm prone to migraines,
rushing can literally give me a migraine. So yeah, so
we all have our own sort of flavor for others.
(38:31):
Upset stomach. I mean, it can kind of immediately grab you,
but it's because our brains and our bodies are doing
they Let's think of it this way. We evolved with
this fight or flight response for a good reason is
(38:53):
we were needing. There were wild animals that we were
right trying to survive, and so we needed literally to
either fight and kill this animal or run away. And
so we've evolved. Our bodies have evolved all of the
(39:16):
same things that the physiological things like our and the
reason why a lot of people have an upset stomach
is because your digestion stops and fight or flight you
get less oxygen to your brain, which is why I
think I get migraines. Like, there's physiological things that happen
because we're putting everything into the like like we can
(39:37):
we go faster, right, So we're putting everything into the
ability to run, and so we don't most of us,
most of us do not live in a world where
the thing that frightens us is a wild animal that
we have to run from or fight. What most of
us live in a world of traffic, our way to
(40:00):
work of how many you know, how much work can
I fit into a day? How many meetings can I
fit into a day? So time, I argue, is has
replaced the wild animal. But the thing about is you
can never you can't kill, you can't conquer time, So
(40:21):
they'll never be a way to win. There's no I mean,
if the fight is to get the thing done, sure
we okay, I get that, that that thrill, that adrenaline rush,
but but we can we cannot do that, and we're
not meant to do that on a daily basis, like
(40:43):
throughout our whole day, to be in the state. And
so for that reason, it it our bodies deteriorate, Our
cortisol stays high all the time. That leads to all
sorts of hypertension. There's all I mean, there's a lot
of just medical issues that can come from staying in
(41:07):
a state of stress NonStop, which is what a lot
of us live in.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Yeah, what's coming to my mind is we're having this
conversation about time. Is also other things outside of work
that sometimes we rush through, like the communications that we're
in with in our families, or rushing to as you
mentioned a couple of moments ago, checking things off like
it's done, yeah, but is it really done?
Speaker 1 (41:38):
You know?
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Okay, so dinner is, dinner is done, the family has eaten,
But how did everyone walk away from the table?
Speaker 3 (41:49):
You know?
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Or done? You're in a relationship, okay, you've rushed to
get into this relationship. Now you spend the next year
and a half trying to unfold something that you write,
a decision that you rush yourself into. So I think
that this is very important in the workplace in learning
(42:11):
how to or in better understanding what's happening as we're communicating,
you know, and how we're designing our time versus reacting
to it. And I think it's also very applicable to
the relationships that you talked about before, the relationships that
we're in with other people, with our family, with the
(42:34):
people that are important to us, and even in the
relationship with ourselves, because if we are constantly trying seeing
speed as success and slowing down as some kind of
failure or weakness, we're putting ourselves in a position to
get to burn out, or we're putting ourselves into a
(42:56):
position that's unfair. That then why to having some kind
of a you know, a physical problem for.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Us, Absolutely because we take it. We take what we
learn about work, and we the rest of our lives
then get managed in the same way. And so absolutely
it has huge implications for relationships and and yeah, I
(43:28):
and that is one of the places where I learned
to just if I cannot be fully present, then I'll
wait till for a time that it can be. I
used to just try to just accommodate everyone all the time,
and it is like just no one's winning. There's no
(43:51):
there's there's no part of that where you say, well,
at least so and so benefited. There's really no one
because you're you're not fully present. And then you get
the norm of sleep deprivation, and then we're really not
our best selves to others. You know, there's a lot
of work. I'm just just the aggression.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
You know.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Sleep deprivation also changes our brain and sleep derivation comes
from our sense that we have to get more done
and at least I can say that's been my experience,
and I've done and I've had I have my undergrads.
So there's a lot of very non work related examples.
And here's a simple thing that I have them do
that that I'm honored that they report is life changing.
(44:36):
Is for one full week, get what amounts to a
full night sleep for your body. And that ranges from
you know seven eight, you know seven would be like
the least, but let's say eight to ten hours a night.
(44:57):
And I and I just say, for a full see
what it takes and your waking life in order to
get what your body needs for a full night sleep.
And it's complicated that you start to see how your
very existence is dependent upon you not giving yourself and
(45:21):
your relationship with you adequate time.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
That's right, That is right. I'm in that. Now I'm
coming off. I'm on the heels of pushing myself way
further than has felt good for me and my reset.
The first thing I do my reset is super simple.
(45:46):
Drink more water, yes, take naps if I need them,
and make sure that I get the eight eight and
a half hours that my body needs. Because what I
find is that when I do that, and when I
buff for both sides of getting to sleep and waking up,
when I buffer those with care and with a routine,
(46:08):
that works for me. I can get so much more
done in so much less time. You really can, right,
because I'm not ruminating. And I also it's also because
I've given myself time, absolutely right, and I find that
when I don't, Besides feeling fatigued throughout the day, there's
(46:31):
also this feeling of kind of having not done something
for myself. So I won't say it's guilt, but it's
kind of like, you're not taking care of me, You're
not taking care of you. You need something that you
haven't been willing to give yourself because you were rushing.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
Yes, And I remind people because again it struck me
one day because I spent sadly. I mean, I went
from a much healthier lifestyle to we have a window
called publisher parish in the academy when you're going up
(47:13):
for tenure and you just work like a crazy person,
and I would, you know, routinely just get four hours
of sleep at night and I and it made me sick, like,
let me just say long term doing that. By the
time my daughter was born, I went to the doctor
(47:34):
because I was like, I just can't I can't stand.
I'm so tired, I cannot stand. And from you know,
eventually realized. First he said, oh, you're just old. You're
just old, was the daughter. I was like, okay, that's
what happened. I'm like, no, this is different. But I
(47:57):
was then diagnosed with chow grins at autoimmune disorder that
makes you feel really, really tired, and and I researched
it and autoimmune disorders. Think it's literally your body. Your
body thinks that you're dying. It thinks something you're not
taking good care of you. And so it's like, we're
(48:19):
under attack. Donna is not doing something. Something's wrong. We're
under attack. Let's help, Let's attack the thing that is
hurting Donna. It was Donna. Does that make you see
what I'm saying, because yeah, it doesn't know how to
process sleep deprivation. It's like sleep deprivation is not a
(48:40):
thing other than in certain parts of the world for humans,
but animals, there's no body is like sleep deprivation. Someone
must like, something must have happened. And I realized that.
I think I kept thinking. I was so focused on
just doing, and like you said, includes with people with
(49:03):
relationships with the doing for everyone else. And I realized, oh,
I am the only person that can take care of me.
Speaker 4 (49:14):
Like and it just was a it was like, it
seems so obvious, but I just wasn't thinking about that
because I was so focused on other people and I
was like, wait.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
There's no one coming to save you from.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
You, no one right right?
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (49:33):
Yes, And I mean and I'm really fortunate that I
was able, like I caught that early enough with the
show grins that I just started saying no to a
lot of things, and I prioritize my sleep like do
I do not. It's not an optional thing. It's not
a thing like oh maybe nope, that is just not
just that, Like you mentioned water and sleep and naps.
(49:58):
It's amazing what you're doing. You can heal right when
it's like, oh you're not dying, okay, I'll stop attacking you,
and it's like yeah, it's magical and so so yes, absolutely,
that thing is that if we can remember that there's
literally no one else that can take care of us
(50:21):
besides us, Like that's your that's your job. Your kids too,
but it's like you and your kids, that's it.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
And even then that's about helping them to learn how
to take care of themselves.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Absolutely, that was my next step that was the next step.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
You talk about holding the past, present, and future at once,
and I'd love uh as a way of decision. Can
you explain what that means?
Speaker 1 (51:03):
Yes, so rather than just making decisions that work for now, right,
that you think about this in this bigger set of
time frames that and like when it's a relationship, like
what what is the past we're building? What is our present?
(51:24):
Am I paying attention now? And how how is this
building a future together? And those three windows of time
that's I mean, that's where the speed comes from. And
when you're taking all of that into account in every
setting like that is powerful because there's always a sense
(51:47):
of of where, where have we come from? Where are
we and where are we going?
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Can you give me an example of that of a
time that maybe you did it or or or something
that you deserved, Like what would that look like for
a person in a particular situation situation.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
I'll try you as a non work example, because I
I I always.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Examples.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
Well, okay, here's here's a mundane here's a really anything. Okay, Okay,
here's a mundane example that I give that I think
we can all relate to. If you have like a
favorite place you go to eat, right, so your person
that like I mean I I go to a place
and they eventually know my order. And it's this idea
that that during the slow time, you you just chat
(52:36):
people up right, and they and you talk to them
and you get to know them. And then when it's
when when things are really busy, there's all there's already
this sense of who this person is, and then you
build this future so that you're you're always you're never
(52:56):
thinking about, oh, i'll see this person one time into
what I do here doesn't matter. You're always both sides
are always building a future together. And we do that
through now and then that becomes the past that we
draw upon to often move quickly. Right, So that then
if you go to that same place and it's rush hour,
(53:19):
they don't even practically need to ask you your order, right,
You're so it actually is faster even if we might
spend you know, a long time at certain points building that.
It's the same infrastructure that allows us at times when
there's not as much of a window to chit chat
(53:40):
to still be quick.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:43):
So that so that's just a mundane example.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
A work example I can think of is I used
to work in corporate and I did project management, and
with the most projects, the most the time, most of
the time is spent on the press option. It's like
getting clear about what you want, figuring out what the
timeline is, figuring out what's in scope, what's out of scope,
(54:07):
and all of those things. And the execution is what
happens at the end after having built this foundation to
accomplish things. So I think if we can take this idea,
which I think is really valuable in the workplace for
(54:27):
the ways that we manage teams or the ways that teams,
you know, correspond and communicate with each communicate with each other,
I think understanding it there will then allow us to
apply these same concepts to other areas of our life,
where if you take the time, you know, if you
(54:48):
can really stop and take the time and move a
little slower, then it's not the it's not going to
take you away from the thing that you want. It's
going to help you to actually reach it. And that's
what I'm that's what I'm getting from you.
Speaker 1 (55:07):
Yes, Yes, And here's here's a family example. I like
to have, like on a Sunday, a family meeting about
the busy week ahead. Right, if there's a lot going on,
so that we can anticipate, because otherwise there's so much
opportunity for miscommunication. Oh, I didn't realize it needed to
(55:29):
be that, and I didn't undert And so if you
can just take like over breakfast, right, brunch, just some
time to look at what's ahead. And my family groaned
about it at first, like you know, why are we
needing to do this, but then they realize like, yeah,
if you just take a little bit, a little bit
(55:51):
of time to plan in a similar way, it's like
project management but for your life, right, and so everyone
gets their needs met every you know, whatever school club
thing is like, everything's done, there's no surprises in the
middle of the week.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
What is the one thing or what's one thing that
you would hope people unlearn as a result of reading
your book?
Speaker 1 (56:19):
Unlearn There's there's a lot of things, So I'll just
say say one thing, but unlearned the sense that just
because you are in motion, that you are accomplishing something,
that being in motion. I think I just really thought
of I was in motion, that that real things were
(56:42):
being accomplished, and I realized that that's actually not the case.
That sometimes when you're doing nothing. The stillness, there's a
lot that's happening there, there's a lot.
Speaker 3 (56:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
Yeah, sometimes nothingness is the most productive thing that you
can do.
Speaker 1 (56:59):
Absolutely and it really is. It's I had a friend
who just who said recently, was like, well, I'm doing nothing,
And I said, well, but did you choose this? Is
this that you stayed home from this stuff because you
were exhausted, Then that's an active decision and that's that's restorative.
(57:21):
That's not the same as I'm doing nothing, Like what
what is that? Yeah, choosing to do nothing. And I
and my teenage daughter I remind her the same, like,
if you're choosing this, this is great, This is like
a really valuable thing to do, and you should build
in complete downtime so that you And maybe that's one
(57:46):
of the pieces is because I know this is so addictive.
Speed is that building in little resets in your life
it will help it feel less uncommmfortable, because it's really
really uncomfortable at first. And if you find baby steps
of ways to build in where you're not doing anything,
(58:09):
you will then recognize how much There's something called the
default mode network, and this is the way our brains
get probably the most done is not through our effortful struggle,
but the idea that when you stop and you maybe
you take a shower and suddenly you realize, oh that
(58:30):
I remember, or you go for a walk, that's actually
your default mode network coming online because it's always working.
They thought when fMRI technology first became available, they were
looking for a baseline of where the brain wasn't doing anything,
and so they kept trying. They realized, oh, there's never
(58:52):
there's never a time when your brain isn't doing anything.
It's never not working. That the times when they initially
thought it was like offline, it was the most sort
of powerful productive, Like you have a problem you want
to solve you you do some effortful work on it,
and you go away from it. That keeps working and
(59:14):
when you come back this like, oh I figured it out.
It wasn't that you you were still working it out.
Speaker 2 (59:21):
It's like we really what I'm getting is to take
care of ourselves.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
Absolutely, to take.
Speaker 2 (59:31):
Care of ourselves. You know, if there's one thing that
you'd want. A person who is feeling super rushed right
now and overextended right now and they're like this sounds great,
how do I stop enough to kind of know where
(59:52):
to start to look. Tip A tip for for that person.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
Yes, yes, here's a tip, like if they're feeling overwhelmed
and don't know where to start, if you look at
your calendar and just see, is there one thing, one
thing across a month that you could cancel or reschedule
indefinitely that that space and then use that space that time, right,
(01:00:21):
don't fill it back up. But then to say, what
does it look like, what does it feel like? How
do I work when I have more downtime? What does
that feel like? And it's very and this is an
assignment for my students and my time matters class, and
it's very uncomfortable at first to be like, I'm not
(01:00:43):
I'm not like doing something. Yeah, right, And and and
also your nervous system gets so accustomed to chaos and
urgency that it feels uncomfortable when there's not that Many
students have told me this and I have experienced it myself.
So I would start there and in that void, in
that space, in that slowing down, even if it's just
(01:01:06):
a little kind of assess like how how does that feel?
And make a decision.
Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
From there, And what if the person says, well, that
feels very uncomfortable. It feels so uncomfortable. I don't know
what to do.
Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
That's a good question, which is what? Then I would say,
keep doing it until it doesn't feel uncomfortable. That's right,
you know, or question or get to the deeper thing.
Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Is, yeah, what are you running? Why does it feel
so uncomfortable?
Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Yeah? What is it about not being in chaos that
feels uncomfortable? Why does that feel uncomfortable to you? There
are deeper issues that, uh, that drive a lot of this,
and often we don't stop and until we're forced.
Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
To, Doctor Donna Ballard, how can we support you?
Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
Oh? Well, I that's a lovely question. My book is
coming out next month, and so if if this sounds interesting,
then I'd love for you to order a copy. You
can pre order it now. There's an electronic version and
(01:02:22):
there's a print version. I'm kind of an old fashioned
paper back person. And yeah, you can my follow me
on Instagram and I teach time. I actually that is
something that I'm making more time for lately. It is
giving sort of bite sized tips and ways to think
(01:02:47):
about this because I realize that and I'm off I'm
not teaching my time matters past this semester, and I
realized there's a lot, and that there's little things. Since
the book is coming out, people have been asking me
for a lot of little things, so I'm like, Okay,
I can give some little things that can help us
on this journey. And it's a journey and it will
(01:03:09):
likely be a lifelong journey because it is for me
and it's fun though. It's so fun to recognize. From
that day, I realized we had a choice, that there
wasn't just one way that changed my life like that.
That was the beginning of what I wouldn't even know
is I mean, my entire career was going to be
studying like, oh, if we have choices, let's figure it out.
(01:03:31):
And failing is part of it. It's okay, you try
something and you try again.
Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
It's a practice.
Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
It's a practice. It's absolutely a practice, and it runs
against the grain of a lot of what we've always
been told. So give yourself patience, give yourself some time.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Yeah. So I'm sitting with the idea that speed is
a function of relationships, right, not just your schedule, right,
a function of the quality of our relationships, and that
the best and fastest thing that we can do sometimes
is to actually slow down, to slow down a bit
(01:04:14):
so that you can really assess, you can feel out
what's happening, and you can actually achieve what is actually
needed for you, you know. For those who are listening,
I invite you to maybe do a little experiment and
listen to doctor Ballard's suggestion that you pay attention, take
(01:04:37):
a look at your schedule, look to see where you
can say no, because saying no sometimes is to outside things,
is your way of saying yes to yourself. And I
believe that sometimes when our bodies are not turning on
us but like poking at us, it's because they want
(01:04:59):
us to say yes to it, you know. So I
encourage you to notice, notice maybe where you're rushing, the
conversation with your colleagues, with your children, with your partner,
or maybe even the conversation with yourself, like those folks
who don't want to be in that conversation, you know,
(01:05:23):
and try the things that doctor Ballard suggested. Try them out,
put them into practice, take a pause, give yourself a beat.
It really matters, you know. At the end of the day,
I truly believe that the relationship that we're in with
ourselves is the most important relationship. And I believe that
(01:05:43):
this work that you're doing and the work that you
talk about in your book Time by Design, How communicating
slow allows us to go fast by doctor Donna Ballard,
is is great tool, you know, to help people to
move in that direction and to understand that we need
(01:06:06):
to rethink this idea of moving quickly. And I think
if you look all around yourself, even at the micro level,
you know, at our families, at our relationships, at our work.
You know, we many of us are able to at
the end of a day or at the end of
a week, check a bunch of things off. But are
(01:06:29):
they right? You know? Yeah. So I encourage those of
you who are listening to I hope you've taken some notes,
please connect to doctor ballat At. I teach time on Instagram.
And are you on TikTok?
Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
No? No?
Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
You expression was like a gust.
Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
It disregulates my nervous system to be in TikTok for
more than like one or two working so hard. I've
worked so hard. Just it's ironic, right, it's time, right.
TikTok is literally about time and speed, So it's like, yeah,
so it it. It's a little hard for me given
where I am now to be in TikTok, but I
(01:07:26):
can instagram. I enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
That's interesting. I'd never made that, even though it's TikTok.
We all know what TikTok is. I never made the
connection between TikTok and times. That's very interesting. Well, I
want to thank you so much for your time. I
know you're incredibly busy, and I appreciate your willingness to
have this conversation. I encourage you all again to read
this book Time by Design. Please read it, think about it,
(01:07:55):
allow it to appeal to your humanity and what you
know is right for yourself. Because I think that this
is something that we can change and create. There needs
to be a different norm for the ways that we
are in relationship with time, and I commend you for
helping us to see that.
Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
Thank you so much. It was such a delight, such
a delight to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
You're welcome. The time flew really, really quickly, So I
encourage you all right so fast and errantayment. If this
conversation lits something up for you, please share it. And
if doctor Ballard's work has resonated with you. Please share
that Okay, So, as always, thank you so much for
(01:08:42):
listening to the Shaping Freedom podcast. I hope that you
will take the gems that we're shared here and apply
them in your life in a very practical way. And
until next time, this is Lisanbask. Yeah, thank you so
much for listening.
Maybe there is a time to be in a hurry,
but that's not likely the majority of the time. When
people say we're building the car as we're driving it,
have you ever heard that that's a high to Yeah, like,
who wants to be in that car that's being built
while you're driving it? Right? It sounds like danger.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to the Shaping Freedom podcast, where we dive into
conversations that inspire personal growth, transformation and clarity and challenging times.
I'm your host, Lissan Basquiat. There's this lie that a
lot of us have swallowed, and that is that if
we just move a little bit faster, answer more emails
(00:52):
in a shorter amount of time, stack up our commitments.
If we just keep doing that, that then we'll find
catch up, and then we'll be free. Today's guest says otherwise.
Doctor Donna Ballard is an Associate Professor of Organizational Communication
and Technology at the University of Texas at Austin and
(01:16):
an expert in crunemis, the study of how time and
human communication are tied together. Her new book, Time by Design,
How Communicating Slow allows Us to Go Fast, is a
book very close to my heart, and it is coming
out mid December and available for pre order now on Amazon.
(01:38):
In it, she argues that speed is never just about
time management, that it's actually a design issue. Donna shows
that the teams and communities that actually move quickly over
the long term are the ones that have learned to
communicate slow, to build relationships, to listen, to give conversations
(01:59):
the space and air that they need so that when
it's time to act, they can actually move. In this conversation,
we'll get into what she calls fast and slow communication
design logics, what happens to our bodies and our relationships
when everything is urgent, and how each of us can
(02:19):
start redesigning our relationship with time so that we're not
just performing productivity, we're living lives that actually feel like
they're ours. If you've ever felt like you're living on
a conveyor belt and that things just don't seem to
ever line up to this place where you want them
to be, this one's for you. The one question, the
(02:49):
overarching question that I have right before I welcome Donna,
is how do we redesign our relationships with time so
that we can move faster, live better, and stop breaking
ourselves into pieces in the process. Doctor Donna Ballad, Welcome
(03:09):
to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I mentioned briefly at the beginning of the conversation, or
as we were getting prepared, that I was very excited
about having you on because I'm kind of reaching that
time of the year and I know that a lot
of listeners, a lot of people are where and I
don't know if it's twenty twenty five, but things are
moving so quickly and the expectations for our time are
(03:38):
so feel so demanding that I'm very excited to have
the opportunity to have this conversation with you, for selfish
reasons and also because I think this is a topic,
This is a conversation that so many of us need
to have.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Oh wonderful. I'm so excited to be here and to
talk with you, and your introduction just gave me chills.
You get it. You get it already, You got it?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I do, girl, I get it. I get it.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah. So you're challenging a culture that that prizes urgency,
the sense of urgency. What happened? What led you to
start this as a conversation and as a study.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
It's a long time coming. My goodness, I this started
as an undergrad at Howard. Actually, I read a book
called The Dance of Life, The Other Dimension of Time
by a cultural anthropologist when I was I think a
sophomore or a junior, and I thought, oh my goodness,
(04:55):
there is more than one way to think about time,
because I was raised that there was just there was
the right way and the wrong way, and that you know,
the right way was was really focused on speed and
destination and accumulating as much as you could when the
(05:18):
shortest amount of time. And I bought it, you know,
and and you know, and it's a it for people.
It begins really innocently, right. You just want to like
have a better life, You want to accomplish you know,
more you want and often it's driven by because I
(05:40):
saw my mom do this. She was in a lot
of helping profession She was a nurse practitioner and ran
a nonprofit that for pregnant teenagers, helping them to stay
in school and learn about parenting. So she had a lot,
you know, in civic she was politically engaged, and so
absolutely this is what you know. And my dad very
(06:02):
similar And I was there and I thought, if there's
more than one way to view time, then maybe maybe
there's a place for me to slow down, you know,
Like I was racing. I was always racing, and I,
(06:24):
you know, I you know, come from like overachieving people,
and I you know, had like a you know, almost
like a four point or three point ninety six gpa
when I even applied to grad school, and so I
just really felt like the like I got to do
more and I have to do it all perfectly. And
I was always racing around. But a friend of mine
(06:48):
wants it to struck me. So like being an undergrad
at Howard, hanging out in the yard is part of
what the undergraduate co ed experience, you know, And so
it's not that I never did. But a lot of
the times when other before hanging out, I was racing
be you know, from one place to the next. And
(07:09):
a friend of mine who was hanging out, he stopped
and mimicked me and started racing really fast and walking
really fast to mimic.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Me that mirror yeah, And I was.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Like I was like okay, okay, like okay, I see this,
and but I hadn't really realized it because when you're
in it, you don't even know. And so that like
it just struck me, and so all of these things
were happening at the same time where I learned about
this and I saw how others saw me, which was
(07:46):
really accurate, and I just thought, you know, it's maybe
there is a time to be in a hurry, but
that's not likely the majority of the time. That in fact,
there's likely the whole parts of our lives and our
work that benefit from slower time. Like I immediately thought of,
(08:11):
like do you want your customer service rep to be
in a hurry and just to be trying to get
you off the phone, or do you want them to
hear you understand like this is just me as a
I don't know, nineteen year old, Like do I want
them to be there to help me and to take
their time. Since then, like Zappos, they have like a
record for like the longest customer service call, which was
(08:33):
like I think it was more than a day. It
was something like eighteen hours or something ridiculous to I
don't exactly know how that unfolded, but.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
I'd love to know what was happening right now.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
But you know, so I realized and then in writing
this book and since writing it, I realized all along
there's been signs that there is a better way. I
thought of out as as kids, the hair and the tortoise.
We were someone what they were trying to tell, is
this a long time ago, you know? And it's so yeah,
(09:10):
so it's been a long time coming. And then I
always thought this was like a side thing, that this
was just in my own personal kind of project, and
here I am doing research. And it wasn't until like
there was a moment when I started looking at the
medical context that I thought, oh, this is throughout all
(09:32):
of my data, I am seeing that the best people
actually take their time, and that the people who are
rushing through might have some really short term gain, but
in general are not the most effective and certainly don't
have the best longevity.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Donna, let me tell you should say that a few
more times loudly for the people in the back, because
what's interesting is you mentioned you went back to the
tortoise and the hair, and I know there are all
kinds of cartoons, Saturday cartoons that come to mind now
(10:11):
that I used to watch as a child that we
all those of us who are within my age group,
watched where it really was all about speed versus taking
your time diligence instead being steadfast. But what's interesting is
that they were trying to tell us something. But at
the same time, we today live in a society and
(10:35):
I'm just talking about hours here within the United States,
a society of people who have are buying into this
idea that you got to move everything. It's like you
talk about fight or flight. There's a sense of urgency
for everything. It's built into the fabric of our conversation.
(11:00):
Hurry up and get this to you. I'll get to
you in just a minute. Like everything is about speed everything,
And I completely agree with you that that's not sustainable,
nor is it how we're designed. I don't believe.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
No, we are not. We are not. Like the in
twenty sixteen, maybe seventeen Nobel Laureates, they won the Nobel
Prize for discovering. They discovered that we all are walking
breathing clocks, and that every part of our body has
a particular rhythm and timing, and that if we try
(11:43):
to outrun, if we try to speed up, if we
try to ignore that internal clock, and we all we all,
all of ours is slightly different, but it all has
a lot of like right rhythms, and ebbs and flows,
and there's certain times you do things and certain times
you slow down. And they sat in their press release
(12:07):
that one of the biggest predictors for illness and you know,
medical problems is misalignment between our internal clock and our lifestyle,
and that if we develop a lifestyle that outpaces who
and what we are, that's where you have problems. That
(12:31):
is where you physiologically are stopped.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
So it's very serious. It is.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
It is and I know that, and I don't necessarily
always have the language for it, and I certainly haven't
done the study that you've done on it. And I'm
so excited to kind of present your information in the
face of everything that so many folks are trying to
keep up with. You're an expert in cronemics. Is that
(13:03):
how you pronounce it?
Speaker 1 (13:04):
That's it, That's how you pronounce Okay.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
How do you explain that? What? What is that?
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Kronemis is simply the study of time as it's bound
to human communication, to relationships, to interactions. So you can
look at you know, neurological time. You can think about
time in terms of aging. There's lots of ways. There's personality,
but there is chrenemis is about the ways in which
(13:33):
we create time together through our interactions, and it is
a fundamentally relational uh resource if you want to call it,
if we want to if we want to put a
resource label on it, it's a it's a fundamentally relational process.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I'll say that, Okay, that we're all in.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
That we're all in and we are recreating it all
the time, like when you talked about where in a
world where where you know speed, we're being pushed into
speed and then when we when we acquiesce because a
lot of times we have to write, like I'm very
clear that that there's a lot of different levels of
(14:14):
agency and some people can slow down and other people
literally cannot, uh. And so this isn't to say, oh,
we the people have it all wrong. Our institutions have
it wrong. And so sometimes we have more or less
control over that. But in terms of just like what
(14:36):
the what we mean by crinemis, it's the ways that
we are recreating it together and the ways that sometimes
we attribute meaning based on time, because that's a very
a very big challenge is because of our cultural norms
(14:56):
that valorize speed and production, and this goes back to
the present ethic. This goes back to Calvinism. This is
this isn't a novel, it's it is speeding up as
technology allows us to go even faster and do more.
But the ways that we attribute sometimes you know, dedication
and care to the overwork, the constant never stopping being
(15:22):
ever available. That's you know, that's what cretamix is about.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
So you talk about to communication design logics fast and slow,
can you talk to us about what that is with
an example, because I think that this kind of will
help us to frame the conversation and also to talk
a bit more about your book.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
So a fast communication design logic is just the real
conventional you know that speed is achieved through time, through
clocks and better clocks and better schedules and better calendars
and a bunch of time management. Like that is how
we That is the way to get things done. And
(16:06):
the slow design logic, slow communication design logic shows that
actually relationships and events like the moment, like what is
before us investing in that actually is the original means
of task accomplishment and it's still the most effective. So
(16:27):
the place where I really among all my research, the
setting that struck me that really was the genesis of
Oh my gosh, this is the thing I have to
write this book. I studied children's advocacy centers and it's
a movement born in the eighties where previous, previously, when
(16:52):
there was a report of child abuse, there was no
coordination among the important people like the lawnfmith that needed
to go and make sure the perpetrator was away from
the child, the cps who were able, you know, to
make sure the child was safe, and the prosecutors who
(17:15):
needed to you know, go to court. Like all of
these different individual agencies weren't working together. And they're all
really under resourced agencies, right who who are given a
very little amount of time to do a lot, Like
their caseloads aren't like ridiculous, they're shameful really that our
(17:38):
culture allows that. And so what was happening two if
one of two things happened is people would think, well,
I'm busy on this other case, someone will get to
this child, and someone else thought, I'm busy on this case.
Someone else will get to this child, and in some
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cases no one got there. And so this movement was
the idea of we can do better, and we can
we can get to children quickly, and we can we
can remove them quickly. We can you know, we can
do these things because speed matters, Like there are jobs
where you can put things off. You can't put things
(18:21):
off when a child is being abused and so, right
and so so the real seriousness of speed, right so,
because we're not anti speed, but the real seriousness of it.
This is what the movement was about. And so what
they realized is we need to coordinate all of these
(18:42):
individual agencies, and so they put them into teams and
they had the teams have these routine case reviews where
they just got together, set around a table, and everyone shared.
But that was a certain time on the calendar. They
knew that they were going to go to that and
they figured, yeah, like, logistically, this is going to make
(19:04):
a lot of difference because people will already have it
on their calendar and they're gonna get lots of information
and communication. So that was true. But what they then found,
which wasn't or what we found in our study, was
that through the sitting down just to do the work,
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the coordination relationships were built, and those relationships were actually
their secret weapon in speed, in being able to move
quickly because they knew each other and they could and
and I do talk about in the book like these
people are still they work a lot, and so I,
(19:47):
you know, I don't want to say like because I
will say they will call each other at any hour, right,
because of the nature of the work they do. But
they knew who they could count on. They knew they
just know particular personalities and how will we work together
and when we're going to prosecute this case, they you know,
(20:09):
they had they built trust and so they and so
we found in our study, like we we figured, yes,
the information sharing, that's great, but we were surprised that
actually the teams that took time and set down, which
is so counterintuitive when you're busy and you don't have
enough time. It's so counterintuitive that you would be like,
(20:31):
I'm going to go to this meeting, right, And because
that's how they felt, and their supervisors often pressured them
even not to go because they're like, you don't have
time for.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
This, you don't have time for that.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, you don't have time for this. You just have
to work the case. But they found it sitting down,
you actually can work it better because you're not just
relying upon you. You are leveraging relationships around the county
that you're working in, and things get it done faster
and smoother. And they almost read each other's minds right
(21:04):
like they talk. But once you know someone really well, right,
you can predict and anticipate what they're gonna say, and
you're able to just it's like a mirror neuron they
talk about in neuroscience, where we just kind of click
and we connect and we can do things in a
(21:25):
way that you can't if you don't know someone. So
that's the perfect example of slow, right, so it seems
and so it's a misnomer that it's slow, but I
use that we're and I debate it because I know
slow people in our culture, Like what are you talking
about slow? I don't want slow, But I used it
(21:46):
to sort of be in your face that you do
have to slow down to go fast, that there's no way.
There's a metaphor that depicts fast communication design logics when
people say we're building the car as we're driving it.
Have you ever heard that? That's like a high to Yeah,
(22:06):
Like who wants to be in that car that's being
built while you're driving it? Right? It sounds like danger.
Another classic example of a fast communication design logic is
Mark Zuckerberg's famous quote, and I'm reading it to be accurate,
move fast and break things. Unless you are breaking stuff,
you are not moving fast enough. What about what? I
(22:31):
think it depends what you're breaking as to whether moving
fast and breaking things is really fast. Because then the
other area that I've studied a lot is in medicine.
Do we want a doctor who has the idea that
unless you're breaking things, you're not moving fast enough. Like
it important things lay in the balance of speed in
(22:54):
the best way, right, like getting to a patient, to
a child. So we are not anti speed. But what
a slow communication design logic is talking about your communication
and it's saying, if you don't slow down to understand
the situation, to to talk to people, to build relationships,
(23:16):
you will actually go slower and not faster, so that
the real speed is in that relationship and what it
gives you. So it's the idea that time and communication
are nonlinear, that actually more communication actually saves time versus
a fast design logic would say, oh, communication takes time.
(23:40):
I don't want I don't have time for them, and
I understand that and there, and there are certain kinds
of communication that maybe do just take up time, certainly
social like your doom scrolling certainly does.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
But but when but but in a lot of other
ways it actually saves time to just now, you.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Know, you talked in your book I described slow as
a way of treating time as transcendent, and you talked
about allowing things to unfold. And I'd love for you
to talk a little bit about that, and it really
and I know that we're still making the case for
(24:36):
slow right where it's appropriate, where it's appropriate, because sometimes
fast is appropriate, right, And what I'd love you to
do is to unpack what that looks like in a
very practical way on a day to day basis for
a person, because when you talked in the beginning about
(24:57):
you know, all these things that you don't want to
have happened fast. Again, we live in this world that says, no,
you get that thing done right now, you hurry up,
and you're rewarded and incentivized by through acceptance to be
super super fast at everything. So how do we how
do you make that case to a person who is
(25:23):
to that person who's saying, what are you talking about?
I have fifty emails. I have time for that. I
can't build a relationship with John. I just want you
to be a partner to me and collaborate with me
and work together with me and figure it out.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah. The first thing I would just acknowledge is that
it's very uncomfortable and I am you know, this is
this is work that I undertook, like I said, because
I didn't. This isn't my this wasn't my default, right,
(25:58):
this is this is something that you have to unlearn
a belief. And the thing is you mentioned fight or
flight early on. This gets to our nervous systems. And
there's a book called Scarcity that talks about when we
do feel scarcity, it actually changes our brains that we
(26:18):
don't even think the same. So I'm going to acknowledge
that this does not seem logical at the outset, and
it certainly doesn't feel comfortable or even safe. Because if
you're in fight or flight, one of two things feel
safe is either to go or to retreat, right and so,
(26:40):
and we're usually in the go and so I recognize that.
So what looks like though the idea of transcendence, I
would say, take a baby step the simplest thing, because
if you see it for yourself, then you can trust it.
This isn't like and overnight where I expect you to
(27:01):
just stop doing everything and now go into this other
path and you won't even know where. Because I do
say that that there are times we don't want a
nine to one one operator to ask us about our
life goals. We want that to write. So this is
(27:23):
not saying that there aren't places for that, but in
terms of transcendence, a simple thing is the next time
you go into a meeting, go into the meeting with
just an openness to what might be here. Because I
personally tend to not like meetings, like it's a thing
(27:44):
of ugh, you know, one more thing on my schedule.
I that's my default. I was raised in this culture.
I'm good at it. I get that. And so what
I have learned to do, though, is to say, you know, like, okay, okay,
I hear you. I hear you, sort of left brain,
(28:08):
and what if we just go into this meeting and
we're just open to what might unfold in this meeting,
and maybe it's a meeting with the person, maybe it's
a team meeting, and showing up in that way allows
you to certain things will arise because you showed up
(28:30):
like you allowed you weren't there with this. Well, let
me let me contrast it so a transactional. So the
opposite of transcendent is what we're more accustomed to when
we're in a hurry is transactionals what's in this for me?
How quickly? How can I get to what I need
and get out of this meeting? Right? How can I
just move on? So when you take that approach, can
(28:54):
I give a work example or do I need to
give just a day to day like not you.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Want she has for example works for you?
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And then whatever one one, I'll give a work one.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
I have a few examples.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I going to tie to it.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
After you use this word work word, I'll start with that.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Well.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Well, one of the examples is is in medicine, and
some doctors go in with a very clear transactional approach
of Okay, I have this much time, I need to
quickly extract this from the patient. But what I found
in my research was that other doctors go into it
(29:39):
looking at the bigger picture around does this patient one is,
if it's an existing patient, do they seem different today? Another?
And and so one one of my collaborators said that
just one of her patients. She came in and she
didn't say anything was wrong, but she noticed something seemed wrong.
(30:01):
She looked different, and so she asked about that. She
stopped and she asked, it wasn't on the agenda. And
it turns out this woman was, you know, had lost
her daughter and was suffering from depression, and so she
was able to get her help. So that could be
like life saving, different right, Or my own doctor I
(30:24):
had one where he just got to know us as
a family. And one time when my daughter was an
infant or she was like a toddler and had a
fever and like her regular pediatrician was like, oh, you
need to take her to the er. And he said,
he said, always call me if you you know, if
(30:47):
you have any questions about her, even though he was
my doctor. And he said, okay. It was something like
take this much ibuprofen and call me in two hours
and let me know. And I did and she was fine,
and I said later, I said how and the other
(31:07):
the patrician had seen her, and I said, how did
you know that that was all that it takes? Because
no one wants to take their kid to the ear
in the middle of the night, right, and you can
actually get sicker, you could. We've we've done that where
we've gone and picked up other stuff. So it's really
not a safe place to be if you don't have to.
And he said, because I know you. I know you, Donna,
(31:29):
and I know if there was it, if if she
needed to be at the ear, you would have already
been there. You wouldn't have called me. So he's just like,
you know, like and so, and I was like, he
never there was never a question where he asked me,
what are you? You know, what is your parenting styff?
He just said, observed me, you know, over a few years.
(31:52):
And so the transcendence is that we you don't know
when you will need information, you don't know, you can't
even be clear what information you're picking up. But when
you just show up and two in observance of someone's humanity,
I mean, that's really what it is. It's like I'm
(32:14):
just showing up and I may or may not get
anything out of this meeting, out of this call whatever,
but I'm just showing up. Another person needs me. I'm
just going to show up and see what is needed.
That's where the transcend it comes in.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
You in your book talk about the Chromedic Design Toolkit.
What does for the person who's listening and who says, okay,
I'm kind of starting to understand that fast all the
time maybe isn't the best thing, and maybe there's a
way an opening for me to start to allow slow
(32:52):
in a bit. Where do they start? Like, how do
you how does one design their time? What does that
look like?
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yeah, oh that's a great question. Start with what is
the communication process? So, like I said, if you are
a nine to one operator, then that's gonna quickly tell
us right, there are some just quick things you need
to do and you need to respond quickly if you're
building a relationship with someone though, and that's most of
(33:22):
what our lives are like, most of our lives are
just a series of relationships. And so if that's the case,
then you look at okay, this is I'll give you
a simple, like a really mundane, simple thing that people
can do that I've done recently. I had a lot
(33:43):
of meetings and I have a calendly link in people's
book and had I hadn't thought about the buffer time.
I thought about it for my sake not needing it.
But I realized that for my students and for my colleagues,
I don't want to have to rush off the phone
(34:04):
with them eve or the zoom call, and that they
might not have booked enough time. They might have thought
we need fifteen minutes, and this is a thirty minute thing.
But I want to respect the next person. So I've
started adding fifteen minute buffers that give me like a
window to say, Okay, I'm prioritizing the person in front
of me, and I'm not gonna rush off. I'm also
(34:27):
prioritize people behind me. And so this gives me a
chance to really listen. Because when I was doing the
quicker like okay, you know default fifteen minutes, things are
just rushed and you can't fully pay attention. So picking
one communication setting that you can just decide to reappraise
(34:51):
and maybe to give a little bit more time to
is like a simple process. And that happened about a
week ago, and I was talking with the student and
it wasn't until the very end that everything clicked, and
like within you know, the first fifteen minutes not that much,
(35:14):
but in the last like ten, so we probably talked
twenty five minutes, she got what she understood, like she
got it. We were able to like really take her
understanding our conversation to the next level because it just
took a little kind of you know, trying out different
(35:35):
you know, questions and her asking questions in different ways,
and finally we got it. And so that is a
very simple way to start, is just to pick one
communication setting and then just imagine, is there a way
that I'm that I am compressing all of our time
into too small of a space so that I feel
(35:58):
rushed and anxious whenever, you know, in the setting, And
is there a way for me to give myself more
time so that I don't feel rushed and anxious. And
I've done that in little places across my life. Even
even there's been a lot of conversation about punctuality because
(36:22):
it was kind of just an artifact of an interview
I did and then the editor picked up, ohnk, this
is about punctuality. People really care about that because there's
so much moralizing that goes on around that. And I
realized that one simple thing that because I don't I
don't moralize it. But I found that when you are
(36:46):
always rushing, then you don't get the same sort of
luxury of time to sit with your thoughts and to
sit with another person if you're rushing from than one
thing to the next. So I've actually started just saying
no to to things that I normally would have tried
(37:09):
to fit more in, Like, Okay, again, i think I'm
doing someone a favor, Sure I'll do that, Sure I'll
take this a meeting at this time, And I've just
decided that it's not serving anyone, that I'm stressed out
and more tired, that I'm not able to pay as
close attention to the person either that I'm with or
(37:32):
the next person, and that, Yeah, there's that that in
many cases, we think there's a need to do things
and we really do not have to add more in
a given saying. And sometimes it can just be no
and you and in order to fully show up for
one setting, it sometimes means there's just fewer things.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
You talked about earlier on about what happens in our bodies,
what actually does happen or how does rushing show up
in our bodies?
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Wow, Okay, so it's different for different people, like in
terms of like like, but just at a broad level. Yeah,
because I mean, for me, like I'm prone to migraines,
rushing can literally give me a migraine. So yeah, so
we all have our own sort of flavor for others.
(38:31):
Upset stomach. I mean, it can kind of immediately grab you,
but it's because our brains and our bodies are doing
they Let's think of it this way. We evolved with
this fight or flight response for a good reason is
(38:53):
we were needing. There were wild animals that we were
right trying to survive, and so we needed literally to
either fight and kill this animal or run away. And
so we've evolved. Our bodies have evolved all of the
(39:16):
same things that the physiological things like our and the
reason why a lot of people have an upset stomach
is because your digestion stops and fight or flight you
get less oxygen to your brain, which is why I
think I get migraines. Like, there's physiological things that happen
because we're putting everything into the like like we can
(39:37):
we go faster, right, So we're putting everything into the
ability to run, and so we don't most of us,
most of us do not live in a world where
the thing that frightens us is a wild animal that
we have to run from or fight. What most of
us live in a world of traffic, our way to
(40:00):
work of how many you know, how much work can
I fit into a day? How many meetings can I
fit into a day? So time, I argue, is has
replaced the wild animal. But the thing about is you
can never you can't kill, you can't conquer time, So
(40:21):
they'll never be a way to win. There's no I mean,
if the fight is to get the thing done, sure
we okay, I get that, that that thrill, that adrenaline rush,
but but we can we cannot do that, and we're
not meant to do that on a daily basis, like
(40:43):
throughout our whole day, to be in the state. And
so for that reason, it it our bodies deteriorate, Our
cortisol stays high all the time. That leads to all
sorts of hypertension. There's all I mean, there's a lot
of just medical issues that can come from staying in
(41:07):
a state of stress NonStop, which is what a lot
of us live in.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Yeah, what's coming to my mind is we're having this
conversation about time. Is also other things outside of work
that sometimes we rush through, like the communications that we're
in with in our families, or rushing to as you
mentioned a couple of moments ago, checking things off like
it's done, yeah, but is it really done?
Speaker 1 (41:38):
You know?
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Okay, so dinner is, dinner is done, the family has eaten,
But how did everyone walk away from the table?
Speaker 3 (41:49):
You know?
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Or done? You're in a relationship, okay, you've rushed to
get into this relationship. Now you spend the next year
and a half trying to unfold something that you write,
a decision that you rush yourself into. So I think
that this is very important in the workplace in learning
(42:11):
how to or in better understanding what's happening as we're communicating,
you know, and how we're designing our time versus reacting
to it. And I think it's also very applicable to
the relationships that you talked about before, the relationships that
we're in with other people, with our family, with the
(42:34):
people that are important to us, and even in the
relationship with ourselves, because if we are constantly trying seeing
speed as success and slowing down as some kind of
failure or weakness, we're putting ourselves in a position to
get to burn out, or we're putting ourselves into a
(42:56):
position that's unfair. That then why to having some kind
of a you know, a physical problem for.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Us, Absolutely because we take it. We take what we
learn about work, and we the rest of our lives
then get managed in the same way. And so absolutely
it has huge implications for relationships and and yeah, I
(43:28):
and that is one of the places where I learned
to just if I cannot be fully present, then I'll
wait till for a time that it can be. I
used to just try to just accommodate everyone all the time,
and it is like just no one's winning. There's no
(43:51):
there's there's no part of that where you say, well,
at least so and so benefited. There's really no one
because you're you're not fully present. And then you get
the norm of sleep deprivation, and then we're really not
our best selves to others. You know, there's a lot
of work. I'm just just the aggression.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
You know.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Sleep deprivation also changes our brain and sleep derivation comes
from our sense that we have to get more done
and at least I can say that's been my experience,
and I've done and I've had I have my undergrads.
So there's a lot of very non work related examples.
And here's a simple thing that I have them do
that that I'm honored that they report is life changing.
(44:36):
Is for one full week, get what amounts to a
full night sleep for your body. And that ranges from
you know seven eight, you know seven would be like
the least, but let's say eight to ten hours a night.
(44:57):
And I and I just say, for a full see
what it takes and your waking life in order to
get what your body needs for a full night sleep.
And it's complicated that you start to see how your
very existence is dependent upon you not giving yourself and
(45:21):
your relationship with you adequate time.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
That's right, That is right. I'm in that. Now I'm
coming off. I'm on the heels of pushing myself way
further than has felt good for me and my reset.
The first thing I do my reset is super simple.
(45:46):
Drink more water, yes, take naps if I need them,
and make sure that I get the eight eight and
a half hours that my body needs. Because what I
find is that when I do that, and when I
buff for both sides of getting to sleep and waking up,
when I buffer those with care and with a routine,
(46:08):
that works for me. I can get so much more
done in so much less time. You really can, right,
because I'm not ruminating. And I also it's also because
I've given myself time, absolutely right, and I find that
when I don't, Besides feeling fatigued throughout the day, there's
(46:31):
also this feeling of kind of having not done something
for myself. So I won't say it's guilt, but it's
kind of like, you're not taking care of me, You're
not taking care of you. You need something that you
haven't been willing to give yourself because you were rushing.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
Yes, And I remind people because again it struck me
one day because I spent sadly. I mean, I went
from a much healthier lifestyle to we have a window
called publisher parish in the academy when you're going up
(47:13):
for tenure and you just work like a crazy person,
and I would, you know, routinely just get four hours
of sleep at night and I and it made me sick, like,
let me just say long term doing that. By the
time my daughter was born, I went to the doctor
(47:34):
because I was like, I just can't I can't stand.
I'm so tired, I cannot stand. And from you know,
eventually realized. First he said, oh, you're just old. You're
just old, was the daughter. I was like, okay, that's
what happened. I'm like, no, this is different. But I
(47:57):
was then diagnosed with chow grins at autoimmune disorder that
makes you feel really, really tired, and and I researched
it and autoimmune disorders. Think it's literally your body. Your
body thinks that you're dying. It thinks something you're not
taking good care of you. And so it's like, we're
(48:19):
under attack. Donna is not doing something. Something's wrong. We're
under attack. Let's help, Let's attack the thing that is
hurting Donna. It was Donna. Does that make you see
what I'm saying, because yeah, it doesn't know how to
process sleep deprivation. It's like sleep deprivation is not a
(48:40):
thing other than in certain parts of the world for humans,
but animals, there's no body is like sleep deprivation. Someone
must like, something must have happened. And I realized that.
I think I kept thinking. I was so focused on
just doing, and like you said, includes with people with
(49:03):
relationships with the doing for everyone else. And I realized, oh,
I am the only person that can take care of me.
Speaker 4 (49:14):
Like and it just was a it was like, it
seems so obvious, but I just wasn't thinking about that
because I was so focused on other people and I
was like, wait.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
There's no one coming to save you from.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
You, no one right right?
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (49:33):
Yes, And I mean and I'm really fortunate that I
was able, like I caught that early enough with the
show grins that I just started saying no to a
lot of things, and I prioritize my sleep like do
I do not. It's not an optional thing. It's not
a thing like oh maybe nope, that is just not
just that, Like you mentioned water and sleep and naps.
(49:58):
It's amazing what you're doing. You can heal right when
it's like, oh you're not dying, okay, I'll stop attacking you,
and it's like yeah, it's magical and so so yes, absolutely,
that thing is that if we can remember that there's
literally no one else that can take care of us
(50:21):
besides us, Like that's your that's your job. Your kids too,
but it's like you and your kids, that's it.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
And even then that's about helping them to learn how
to take care of themselves.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Absolutely, that was my next step that was the next step.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
You talk about holding the past, present, and future at once,
and I'd love uh as a way of decision. Can
you explain what that means?
Speaker 1 (51:03):
Yes, so rather than just making decisions that work for now, right,
that you think about this in this bigger set of
time frames that and like when it's a relationship, like
what what is the past we're building? What is our present?
(51:24):
Am I paying attention now? And how how is this
building a future together? And those three windows of time
that's I mean, that's where the speed comes from. And
when you're taking all of that into account in every
setting like that is powerful because there's always a sense
(51:47):
of of where, where have we come from? Where are
we and where are we going?
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Can you give me an example of that of a
time that maybe you did it or or or something
that you deserved, Like what would that look like for
a person in a particular situation situation.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
I'll try you as a non work example, because I
I I always.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Examples.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
Well, okay, here's here's a mundane here's a really anything. Okay, Okay,
here's a mundane example that I give that I think
we can all relate to. If you have like a
favorite place you go to eat, right, so your person
that like I mean I I go to a place
and they eventually know my order. And it's this idea
that that during the slow time, you you just chat
(52:36):
people up right, and they and you talk to them
and you get to know them. And then when it's
when when things are really busy, there's all there's already
this sense of who this person is, and then you
build this future so that you're you're always you're never
(52:56):
thinking about, oh, i'll see this person one time into
what I do here doesn't matter. You're always both sides
are always building a future together. And we do that
through now and then that becomes the past that we
draw upon to often move quickly. Right, So that then
if you go to that same place and it's rush hour,
(53:19):
they don't even practically need to ask you your order, right,
You're so it actually is faster even if we might
spend you know, a long time at certain points building that.
It's the same infrastructure that allows us at times when
there's not as much of a window to chit chat
(53:40):
to still be quick.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:43):
So that so that's just a mundane example.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
A work example I can think of is I used
to work in corporate and I did project management, and
with the most projects, the most the time, most of
the time is spent on the press option. It's like
getting clear about what you want, figuring out what the
timeline is, figuring out what's in scope, what's out of scope,
(54:07):
and all of those things. And the execution is what
happens at the end after having built this foundation to
accomplish things. So I think if we can take this idea,
which I think is really valuable in the workplace for
(54:27):
the ways that we manage teams or the ways that teams,
you know, correspond and communicate with each communicate with each other,
I think understanding it there will then allow us to
apply these same concepts to other areas of our life,
where if you take the time, you know, if you
(54:48):
can really stop and take the time and move a
little slower, then it's not the it's not going to
take you away from the thing that you want. It's
going to help you to actually reach it. And that's
what I'm that's what I'm getting from you.
Speaker 1 (55:07):
Yes, Yes, And here's here's a family example. I like
to have, like on a Sunday, a family meeting about
the busy week ahead. Right, if there's a lot going on,
so that we can anticipate, because otherwise there's so much
opportunity for miscommunication. Oh, I didn't realize it needed to
(55:29):
be that, and I didn't undert And so if you
can just take like over breakfast, right, brunch, just some
time to look at what's ahead. And my family groaned
about it at first, like you know, why are we
needing to do this, but then they realize like, yeah,
if you just take a little bit, a little bit
(55:51):
of time to plan in a similar way, it's like
project management but for your life, right, and so everyone
gets their needs met every you know, whatever school club
thing is like, everything's done, there's no surprises in the
middle of the week.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
What is the one thing or what's one thing that
you would hope people unlearn as a result of reading
your book?
Speaker 1 (56:19):
Unlearn There's there's a lot of things, So I'll just
say say one thing, but unlearned the sense that just
because you are in motion, that you are accomplishing something,
that being in motion. I think I just really thought
of I was in motion, that that real things were
(56:42):
being accomplished, and I realized that that's actually not the case.
That sometimes when you're doing nothing. The stillness, there's a
lot that's happening there, there's a lot.
Speaker 3 (56:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
Yeah, sometimes nothingness is the most productive thing that you
can do.
Speaker 1 (56:59):
Absolutely and it really is. It's I had a friend
who just who said recently, was like, well, I'm doing nothing,
And I said, well, but did you choose this? Is
this that you stayed home from this stuff because you
were exhausted, Then that's an active decision and that's that's restorative.
(57:21):
That's not the same as I'm doing nothing, Like what
what is that? Yeah, choosing to do nothing. And I
and my teenage daughter I remind her the same, like,
if you're choosing this, this is great, This is like
a really valuable thing to do, and you should build
in complete downtime so that you And maybe that's one
(57:46):
of the pieces is because I know this is so addictive.
Speed is that building in little resets in your life
it will help it feel less uncommmfortable, because it's really
really uncomfortable at first. And if you find baby steps
of ways to build in where you're not doing anything,
(58:09):
you will then recognize how much There's something called the
default mode network, and this is the way our brains
get probably the most done is not through our effortful struggle,
but the idea that when you stop and you maybe
you take a shower and suddenly you realize, oh that
(58:30):
I remember, or you go for a walk, that's actually
your default mode network coming online because it's always working.
They thought when fMRI technology first became available, they were
looking for a baseline of where the brain wasn't doing anything,
and so they kept trying. They realized, oh, there's never
(58:52):
there's never a time when your brain isn't doing anything.
It's never not working. That the times when they initially
thought it was like offline, it was the most sort
of powerful productive, Like you have a problem you want
to solve you you do some effortful work on it,
and you go away from it. That keeps working and
(59:14):
when you come back this like, oh I figured it out.
It wasn't that you you were still working it out.
Speaker 2 (59:21):
It's like we really what I'm getting is to take
care of ourselves.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
Absolutely, to take.
Speaker 2 (59:31):
Care of ourselves. You know, if there's one thing that
you'd want. A person who is feeling super rushed right
now and overextended right now and they're like this sounds great,
how do I stop enough to kind of know where
(59:52):
to start to look. Tip A tip for for that person.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
Yes, yes, here's a tip, like if they're feeling overwhelmed
and don't know where to start, if you look at
your calendar and just see, is there one thing, one
thing across a month that you could cancel or reschedule
indefinitely that that space and then use that space that time, right,
(01:00:21):
don't fill it back up. But then to say, what
does it look like, what does it feel like? How
do I work when I have more downtime? What does
that feel like? And it's very and this is an
assignment for my students and my time matters class, and
it's very uncomfortable at first to be like, I'm not
(01:00:43):
I'm not like doing something. Yeah, right, And and and
also your nervous system gets so accustomed to chaos and
urgency that it feels uncomfortable when there's not that Many
students have told me this and I have experienced it myself.
So I would start there and in that void, in
that space, in that slowing down, even if it's just
(01:01:06):
a little kind of assess like how how does that feel?
And make a decision.
Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
From there, And what if the person says, well, that
feels very uncomfortable. It feels so uncomfortable. I don't know
what to do.
Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
That's a good question, which is what? Then I would say,
keep doing it until it doesn't feel uncomfortable. That's right,
you know, or question or get to the deeper thing.
Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Is, yeah, what are you running? Why does it feel
so uncomfortable?
Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Yeah? What is it about not being in chaos that
feels uncomfortable? Why does that feel uncomfortable to you? There
are deeper issues that, uh, that drive a lot of this,
and often we don't stop and until we're forced.
Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
To, Doctor Donna Ballard, how can we support you?
Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
Oh? Well, I that's a lovely question. My book is
coming out next month, and so if if this sounds interesting,
then I'd love for you to order a copy. You
can pre order it now. There's an electronic version and
(01:02:22):
there's a print version. I'm kind of an old fashioned
paper back person. And yeah, you can my follow me
on Instagram and I teach time. I actually that is
something that I'm making more time for lately. It is
giving sort of bite sized tips and ways to think
(01:02:47):
about this because I realize that and I'm off I'm
not teaching my time matters past this semester, and I
realized there's a lot, and that there's little things. Since
the book is coming out, people have been asking me
for a lot of little things, so I'm like, Okay,
I can give some little things that can help us
on this journey. And it's a journey and it will
(01:03:09):
likely be a lifelong journey because it is for me
and it's fun though. It's so fun to recognize. From
that day, I realized we had a choice, that there
wasn't just one way that changed my life like that.
That was the beginning of what I wouldn't even know
is I mean, my entire career was going to be
studying like, oh, if we have choices, let's figure it out.
(01:03:31):
And failing is part of it. It's okay, you try
something and you try again.
Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
It's a practice.
Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
It's a practice. It's absolutely a practice, and it runs
against the grain of a lot of what we've always
been told. So give yourself patience, give yourself some time.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Yeah. So I'm sitting with the idea that speed is
a function of relationships, right, not just your schedule, right,
a function of the quality of our relationships, and that
the best and fastest thing that we can do sometimes
is to actually slow down, to slow down a bit
(01:04:14):
so that you can really assess, you can feel out
what's happening, and you can actually achieve what is actually
needed for you, you know. For those who are listening,
I invite you to maybe do a little experiment and
listen to doctor Ballard's suggestion that you pay attention, take
(01:04:37):
a look at your schedule, look to see where you
can say no, because saying no sometimes is to outside things,
is your way of saying yes to yourself. And I
believe that sometimes when our bodies are not turning on
us but like poking at us, it's because they want
(01:04:59):
us to say yes to it, you know. So I
encourage you to notice, notice maybe where you're rushing, the
conversation with your colleagues, with your children, with your partner,
or maybe even the conversation with yourself, like those folks
who don't want to be in that conversation, you know,
(01:05:23):
and try the things that doctor Ballard suggested. Try them out,
put them into practice, take a pause, give yourself a beat.
It really matters, you know. At the end of the day,
I truly believe that the relationship that we're in with
ourselves is the most important relationship. And I believe that
(01:05:43):
this work that you're doing and the work that you
talk about in your book Time by Design, How communicating
slow allows us to go fast by doctor Donna Ballard,
is is great tool, you know, to help people to
move in that direction and to understand that we need
(01:06:06):
to rethink this idea of moving quickly. And I think
if you look all around yourself, even at the micro level,
you know, at our families, at our relationships, at our work.
You know, we many of us are able to at
the end of a day or at the end of
a week, check a bunch of things off. But are
(01:06:29):
they right? You know? Yeah. So I encourage those of
you who are listening to I hope you've taken some notes,
please connect to doctor ballat At. I teach time on Instagram.
And are you on TikTok?
Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
No? No?
Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
You expression was like a gust.
Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
It disregulates my nervous system to be in TikTok for
more than like one or two working so hard. I've
worked so hard. Just it's ironic, right, it's time, right.
TikTok is literally about time and speed, So it's like, yeah,
so it it. It's a little hard for me given
where I am now to be in TikTok, but I
(01:07:26):
can instagram. I enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
That's interesting. I'd never made that, even though it's TikTok.
We all know what TikTok is. I never made the
connection between TikTok and times. That's very interesting. Well, I
want to thank you so much for your time. I
know you're incredibly busy, and I appreciate your willingness to
have this conversation. I encourage you all again to read
this book Time by Design. Please read it, think about it,
(01:07:55):
allow it to appeal to your humanity and what you
know is right for yourself. Because I think that this
is something that we can change and create. There needs
to be a different norm for the ways that we
are in relationship with time, and I commend you for
helping us to see that.
Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
Thank you so much. It was such a delight, such
a delight to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
You're welcome. The time flew really, really quickly, So I
encourage you all right so fast and errantayment. If this
conversation lits something up for you, please share it. And
if doctor Ballard's work has resonated with you. Please share
that Okay, So, as always, thank you so much for
(01:08:42):
listening to the Shaping Freedom podcast. I hope that you
will take the gems that we're shared here and apply
them in your life in a very practical way. And
until next time, this is Lisanbask. Yeah, thank you so
much for listening.
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