Turning Grief Into Legacy: Rob & Emilee McGowan on Love, Loss & Resilience

 In this heartfelt episode of Shaping Freedom, Lisane Basquiat speaks with Rob and Emilee McGowan about their son Myles, the journey of grief, and how they turned unimaginable loss into purpose. Through their nonprofit Myles Ahead of Cancer and coaching practice Diving Within, they help families and couples navigate hardship with love, honesty, and resilience.

Learn how to set boundaries without guilt. Join Lisane's next Protect Your Peace Shaping Session today: https://shapingfreedom.com/boundaries-workshop

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
And then there are moments when I can tell you
the story about Miles and our journey with him and
smile and be great, and then the next time I
tell that story to another person, I'm in tears. Because
that's how grief works. You're going to be emotional about it.
And some days it's just upfront and loud, and then

(00:29):
there's some days where it's just in the background, low plane,
but it's always there.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to the Shaping Freedom Podcast, where we dive into
conversations that inspire personal growth, transformation and clarity and challenging times.
I'm your host, Lissan Bosquilla. We're going to have a
conversation today that I'm very excited to have and also
am feeling a little personally, and so if you'll bear

(01:01):
with me, we'll get into it. I'm going to talk
about what happens when life hands you an unimaginable thing.
And I'm talking today to Rob and Emily McGowan, who
experienced a loss in two thousand and eight, and it
was a kind of loss that can break a family apart.

(01:21):
But instead of collapsing inward, Rob and Emily chose to
honor their son, Miles's legacy in ways that would ripple
far beyond their own grief. They founded Miles Ahead of
Cancer Miles m y l e S Ahead of Cancer,
a nonprofit that walks alongside families navigating the unthinkable. And

(01:44):
then they created Diving Within, which is a coaching practice
for couples who are struggling to find clarity and connection
in their relationships. This conversation is not just about tragedy.
It's about resilience. It's about family, love of legacy, and
the audacity to build something meaningful out of heartbreak. As

(02:07):
you listen, I invite you to consider how do you
honor your own losses, and what does healing look like
when the story doesn't go the way that you hoped,
And what would it mean to transform your pain into
something that serves others. Welcome to this conversation, Rob and Emily,

(02:33):
thank you again so much for taking time out of
your busy schedules to talk with me. And let's just start,
if you don't mind, let's start at the beginning of
this particular chapter. Tell us about Miles.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
We did the go ahead, you can go. Let's see. Well,
he's definitely a surprise. We had two children already, I
had a girl, he had a boy, and then about
nine years later we end up having Miles, and there

(03:16):
was a situation where I was like, oh, maybe we
should stop with him because he's really good, like he's
a good kid, and we were like, all right, that's
actually a really good place. And then we end up
having Diego by surprise, which was our last son, so
we end up having two together. During the time that

(03:36):
we had Miles. In two thousand and six, he was
diagnosed with cancer, and it was a particular brain cancer
on the back of his neck, near the spine where
all the nerves go out to the rest of your body.
So we found out by surprise. He kept saying that

(03:56):
his neck was hurting. He's like, Mommy, my neck hurts.
So you know, as a parent, you think, oh, he
has a kink in his neck. He probably just slept wrong.
So we end up just kind of monitoring how it
was going. So I ended up taking him to his
pediatrician and they said, oh, give him some multron. It's

(04:16):
probably the flu, nothing to worry about. But the moultron
doesn't didn't keep working. It was like you give it
to him, and then some hours later he would start
complaining again. So I took him back to urgent Care
and said, hey, you know, something's going on. I didn't
tell them what I was thinking or what was going on.

(04:38):
I wanted them to tell me what they what they
were seeing. So we end up taking him to urgent
care once again. They're like, yeah, just give him some
tailan off. You've been giving a moultrin, give him tilan
all that should work better. So we end up at
a hospital in Torrents and uh, because we end up.
I ended up taking it back to his pediatrician and

(05:00):
not even two weeks later, and I said, something's wrong
with our son and I don't know what it is,
but we need to figure it out because this is
not the same kid that came in here two weeks ago.
And she was like, you're right, Let's send him to
Torrence Memorial so he can get a scan done. While
we're there. Is when we met a doctor named doctor Tarnay,

(05:21):
and he's the one who gave us the news that
Miles had a tumor. And they weren't sure, but they
didn't have the capability to help a child, like they
didn't have a pediatric section in there, they didn't have
a pediatric section in their hospital. So they sent us
to Long Beach Memorial Middle Children's Hospital and my husband

(05:41):
wrote with him in the in the emergence the ambulance
and then we met up over there and then everything
went like crazy from that point that you shared.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
So, uh, the question was tell you about Miles, And
so Miles was a very charismatic little boy.

Speaker 4 (06:09):
Super beautiful, huge smile, big beautiful eyes, just just amazing,
gorgeous little boy who never met a stranger at the
point to where you know, he was three when he
was diagnosed and he and he made his transition at five,

(06:31):
so you imagine that most of you know, a good
chunk of his life was spent battling this disease. And
every picture that we have smiled in the hospital with
two's with patch over's eye, no matter what, and no

(06:52):
matter what, he's smiling, and that was just his his personality.
I'll share this one story that I carry it almost
every day.

Speaker 5 (07:02):
You know, as I meditated.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
There was a time I was a community organizer and man,
you know the hours that we put in and I
remember I just had a bad day. I mean not
a bad day, it was just tough. I remember coming
home and I sat down in my chair. Mouse comes downstairs.
And this is before diagnosis, so he was probably three
ish at the time anyway, and he looked at me,

(07:28):
and I looked at him and.

Speaker 5 (07:30):
Like he just started poplark, and I'm like, first of all,
where do you get this from?

Speaker 2 (07:35):
Right?

Speaker 5 (07:36):
Generation? First? How does where did he get that from?
How does he know how to do this?

Speaker 4 (07:41):
And it meant so much because it was like he
saw me in that moment and he was like, Okay,
I'm gonna do this to make Daddy smile, right And
and that's the kind of thoughtfulness that he always cared
for for us, for siblings, or for people around him,
for his little friends that he had at the time.

Speaker 5 (08:03):
He was just an amazing, amazing kid.

Speaker 4 (08:05):
And at his memorial, one of our brothers made the
the the obituary for him, and I think we have
printed up like two hundred and fifty three hundred and
we ran out right now, that's not a testament.

Speaker 5 (08:25):
That's not just a testament of our friends and our network.

Speaker 4 (08:29):
That's a direct testament of him and his impact that
he had on everybody he met.

Speaker 5 (08:34):
It's people we still connect with at the hospital.

Speaker 4 (08:37):
Nurses doctors who their fondest memory of their job in
their career was this little boy.

Speaker 5 (08:44):
Yes, but that's that's who Miles was.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
How did you during those two years? What kind of
a support system did you have? And obviously if you
had that many people, you know, celebrating his life and
coming and creating a tribe around you, you had that right.

Speaker 5 (09:04):
Now at the time, not much.

Speaker 4 (09:05):
I mean, when you tell somebody and we've had these
conversations with our friends afterwards, when you tell somebody, hey,
our kid has cancer, and now we're all in on
this fight, and we got a bunch of doctor's appointments,
we got a bunch of treatments.

Speaker 5 (09:24):
I mean, it w wasn't like people were there. Yeah,
it really weren't.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
We had a handful of people who would take our
other kids right to school or to their practice, but
it wasn't a whole lot of people. It was just
the same people doing the same thing for us throughout
that time. So our circle was really small. And then
our family, My family lived in New York at the time,

(09:54):
so and.

Speaker 5 (09:56):
Most of my family is in Alabama.

Speaker 4 (09:57):
Okay, I mean I do have family out here, but
it was it's more extended. My immediate family there, mostly
in Alabama.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, And I hesitated in the beginning and kind of
stopped for a moment because I a different situation, certainly,
and I witnessed my parents having lost my brother, right,
and it was again a different set of circumstances. It

(10:27):
was very sudden and uh, but I witnessed that and
thought about that as you know, as we were kind
of entering into the conversation with each other. And so
that was where the hesitation was in that moment. And
one of the things in that situation was also kind

(10:50):
of a lack of real support, right, because how do
you right, you don't expect to have to people don't
know what to say, and it's such an unimaginable situation
that that you're really unprepared for, right, anyone, right, the

(11:10):
folks who are going through it, you know, everyone involved
and touching it in any way. And so I asked
the question mostly for to provide to people who might
be going through something challenging, the importance of bringing people close,

(11:31):
you know, or the importance of reaching in to help
and support people who are going through a challenging situation.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, And when you say you know people, they don't
know what to say, right, they don't know what to say,
and they ask you, how can I support you? Right?
For some folks, they'll ask how I support you? What
can I do? And a lot of times we don't
even know what it is that we need in that moment,
and to say, I really need you to give some

(12:03):
normalcy to my kids, So can you please take them
to practice? You know, can you please, you know, while
we go to stay at the hospital with Miles, do
you mind like just being with our kids so that
they have some normalcy in their life? Right the mob
drop them off, whatever needs to be done. And a

(12:24):
lot of times, especially after Miles, you know, went home
to the Lord or transition, whatever word you want to use,
even after that time, it was very challenging for people
to know what to say to us.

Speaker 4 (12:40):
Yeah, yeah, And those are the conversation We end up
having a couple of very significant conversations with close friends
who who said it at the time we didn't know
what to say, felt guilty because we didn't know what
to say. And one of our guys even said he

(13:02):
lifted it up. It's like it's a double loss because
you you know, we've lost our son and then technically
because our friends don't know what to say, they distanced
themselves or because of their own whatever inside of them.
And then so we've lost our friends. Now, yeah, so
we had a couple of really really amazing people in

(13:22):
our lives. We've had the conversation with them, and they've open,
open conversation, honestly apologized.

Speaker 5 (13:31):
But said their piece of which we understood. I don't know, yeah,
I'll probably be in the same.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
Position the guilt that they felt, right, the guilt for
because a lot of them had children too, and thinking
of like their situation is saying, Wow, I'm glad it's
not me. I'm sorry that it's you know, I'm sorry
it's you. I'm glad it's not me, And you know that.

Speaker 4 (13:59):
Was he was like, man, I just wasn't my son, right?

Speaker 5 (14:06):
I mean, but we had.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
And that was really a heartfelt situation conversation that we
had with that particular friend because even in that conversation,
you know, you see the pain that he was going
through to even say those words to us, right or
or even for me, because I felt like we were abandoned. Understandably,

(14:34):
I felt very abandoned by our people who were supposed
to be are really good friends. And what I did
not realize back then was that they were grieving too,
that they weren't just grieving like, oh, you know, it's
our friendship, it's this, but they were grieving for so

(14:54):
many different areas in their life, like guilty about their child,
guilty about our child, you know, and then not coming
around really and not knowing what to say really, and
it was just all those pieces. And I found the
way to just be forgiving of that because I didn't
realize at the time that they were gathing just as

(15:17):
much as I was.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
And I think also part of our culture is really
to shy away from heart to heart conversations. I think
that we know, we have the playbook for what to say,
you know, God, bless you. I hope you're okay, you

(15:42):
know those kind of things, you know, whatever those things are.
And what we I would hope can get better at
is having those heart to heart conversations and being able
to feel ourselves and also being able to feel with

(16:05):
another person. And I think that it's really that that's like,
that's the undercurrent of it is I don't I see
that you're in pain, and I don't know how to
meet you there, so you know, it's a door that
I don't know how to walk through, so I'm gonna
step away, you know. And it's not a right or wrong,

(16:28):
it's just what happens. And part of what happens when
we are in those situations is that there are people
who feel abandoned, you know, as they're going through something,
and there are people who have some kind of truth
or the reality of what they're feeling that they are

(16:50):
unable to or unwilling to or don't know how to
share with those folks, and so it keeps us separate.

Speaker 4 (16:57):
And I think a big part of my healing journey,
I didn't know it at the time, was to be
honest about what I was feeling.

Speaker 5 (17:08):
Same buddy, he was like, Hey, how are you feeling right? Nope, yeah,
I'm not good right now. You know what I'm saying.
I'm just with God right now. You know.

Speaker 6 (17:18):
It was.

Speaker 4 (17:20):
I got into the habit or the practice of really being.

Speaker 5 (17:26):
Super aware of what I.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
Was feeling and not and just saying what I was
feeling when asked, if you want to ask me, I'm
going to tell you.

Speaker 5 (17:34):
You're not going to ask.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
That's cool too, right, How did you go from that experience,
and I'm so sorry, And again, just I'm having this
conversation with you, and I'm here, I'm present in the conversation,
and I'm also having this conversation as a daughter who

(17:57):
witnessed this, as a family member who experience this, and
as a little sister. And so that's some of what
I'm thinking about as we're talking, and that's some of
what some of my questions are going to lean into,

(18:20):
because I don't have a lot of opportunity to share that,
and I know that there are so many people, so
many families that have experienced that are experiencing, that will
experience the same thing. And so my hope and intention
for this conversation is that we can put some of

(18:41):
that out there so that it can help someone else,
and so that the parts of your story that you're
choosing to share and that you have and are sharing
through your nonprofits can help someone else who's going through it.
So how did you go from that experience to deciding

(19:04):
to build a nonprofit?

Speaker 4 (19:07):
Well, for me, I had some really good people who
were about that coaching life already right even at the
nonprofit while I was working at the time.

Speaker 5 (19:19):
We use coaching as part of our organizing.

Speaker 4 (19:23):
It was an organizing tact that we used to help
parents kind of get and see things, you know, kind
of put that personal stuff away to focus on policy.

Speaker 5 (19:33):
Right enough, and so my ed at the time.

Speaker 4 (19:39):
I had a couple of really really dope friends at
the time who who really coached me through that, through
those moments, those dark, dark moments of you know, not
wanting to be here anymore, to questioning my actions that
I did this right, I should have did X, Y,
and Z, every thing, all the negativity that would take

(20:02):
some money to someone to the point of wanting not
to be here anymore.

Speaker 5 (20:07):
But they challenged me in good positive ways. They let
me see.

Speaker 4 (20:13):
The situation and in a light to where I was
able to receive it. I'm not I'm not saying everybody's
able to receive it. I was lucky in that aspect
to where I was able to receive it, embrace it
and use it in a positive way to where I
could see my process and now I can see it

(20:36):
in other people.

Speaker 5 (20:38):
And being able to go through.

Speaker 6 (20:39):
A coaching program to specifically get the tools to really
be able to help people and really know what I'm
doing and with those with with that process, with seeing
people go through theirs.

Speaker 5 (20:53):
That's where I'm like, hey.

Speaker 4 (20:54):
If it could save my life, coaching could save my life.
Then you're dealing with with your job, with your.

Speaker 5 (21:02):
Family, with your way I got you.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
Works.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
So is this this is diving within Yeah, that's how
we got to diving with in. Let's let's talk a
little bit about that, and then I would love to
go back to miles ahead of cancer, But let's first
talk about diving with them, since that's where that's where
we went. What do you do? Who do you do
it for?

Speaker 5 (21:27):
Huh? Coaching? Uh?

Speaker 4 (21:29):
And when we talk about coaching is different from therapy.
I tell everyone you have whatever you need. You have
all the answers inside you already. So my job, my work,
I'm the co pilot in this process is to is
to ask the questions to help you have your AHA
moments and reflect from those. From those reflections, now, what

(21:54):
actions would you take that would be different, not good
or better? Like you know, uh, two magic questions? What
was your role in the situation? What could you have
done differently?

Speaker 2 (22:04):
Accountability?

Speaker 5 (22:05):
What better or worse? Just differently? Right, we're not putting
on it.

Speaker 4 (22:12):
And so in that reflection, Now what type of new steps,
what type of new actions, what type of new things
could you come up with that you know, based on
where you've been and that.

Speaker 5 (22:21):
Reflection, and now how does that How does the new
action lead to transformation?

Speaker 7 (22:26):
And so that's just the just a really basic model
of how I we see coaching and diving within and
that and that works, whether it's organizational development, whether it's
leadership development, whether it's whether it's.

Speaker 5 (22:40):
Couples, whether it's you know, you're just trying to figure.

Speaker 4 (22:44):
Out what I hear a lot of work life balance,
which is really and a lot of it really and
I'll say this and shut up, A lot of this
really comes down to like shadow work, like those parts
of ourselves that we don't examine that really are.

Speaker 5 (23:01):
Still part of us. Is your shadow, Your shadow is you.

Speaker 4 (23:04):
And if you don't examine the how your actions are
driven by your unconscious, then you'll be doing stuff and
wondering why you did it right and.

Speaker 5 (23:14):
So repeating the cycle.

Speaker 4 (23:15):
So that accountability part, like okay, let's let's let's get
with it, let's let let's dive with them.

Speaker 2 (23:22):
That's right, that's right, And accountability isn't I think sometimes.

Speaker 3 (23:27):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
I know in my experience, I will say accountability and
a person will look at me like it's a like
I've insulted them.

Speaker 8 (23:34):
You know what.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
Wait and it's like no, no, no. Accountability is just the thing.
It's not good or bad. It's a willingness to look.
It's a willingness to be present in the situation and
to see how you're contributing to what's happening around you.
That's all it is. Now, if you see it as
a negative thing, if you got some other things to

(23:56):
talk about, that's something else. Like that's it's a different
Let's let's let's dig into that conversation. Thank you for
opening that door because we need to go there. You know,

(24:18):
what are some I know that you do. So you
work with couples, right, and I'd love to know, now
do you two do this work together?

Speaker 9 (24:24):
Am I right?

Speaker 5 (24:25):
A couple work together? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (24:27):
But the consulting and other coaching, the executive coaching, and
the organizational.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Stuff, yes, So I want to talk about both of
those lanes for a second, or each of those lanes.
So first of all, with the organizational, right, we're going
to start outer to enter. So with the organizational stuff,
and consulting. What are some of the challenges, common challenges
that you're observing that people are faced with. What are

(24:56):
the things that are standing in the way.

Speaker 5 (25:00):
Themselves?

Speaker 4 (25:01):
That's that's the easiest thing a lot of I mean,
I work for a none a small non I work
for a larger nonprofit. I work for a really small nonprofit,
and then I work for a small nonprofit, so and
and and in those spaces you wear a bunch of hats, right,
and and it's in service of our communities, and so

(25:23):
you know, there's there's a lot of stuff that comes
up when you you know, have to make sure that
we're the campaign is going well, that everyone is getting paid, that.

Speaker 5 (25:36):
Our coalitions are doing doing well.

Speaker 4 (25:38):
And internally, how how are our staffs growing, how they're evolving,
how are they being the best version of themselves? So
the leadership development is key, right, developing staff so that
they can develop our members, right and and what gaps

(25:59):
am I seeing in our staff leadership so they can
see the gaps and our members so they can be
powerful to them as a community. So it's really about,
you know, the leadership development piece in all of it,
no matter what it is, what is development whether it's campaigns.

Speaker 5 (26:18):
No matter what it is.

Speaker 4 (26:19):
On a nonprofit level, it really comes back to how
are people being honest about themselves, their roles coming up
for them in those hard moments, and how to deal
and manage and be.

Speaker 5 (26:30):
Real with it.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, and what are some of the gaps that you're
seeing in leadership, especially today, you know, when there's so
much happening in the world, and so much happening in
our families, and you know, in the communities that we're
within and work, what are some of those.

Speaker 9 (26:48):
Gaps people not being honest with themselves and really being
hard on themselves bringing into the work because oftentimes people
come to help want to help people who are going
through trauma because they've experienced trauma, experience.

Speaker 5 (27:08):
Of their own a certain amount of pain. So they
see themselves and the people that they're serving.

Speaker 4 (27:13):
And so they pour everything everything into serving others and
neglect themselves. So that's that's the that's the largest most
common gap.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
What what led you to doing the couple's work that
you're doing.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
Well, we were going through a lot, she said, Well,
we were not liking each other right, Like at certain
points in time, it was just it was like, yeah,
I don't like you, you don't like me, where things
are just not vibing, they're.

Speaker 5 (27:47):
Not you know, just don't like you because you don't
like me.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, no, that's whatever.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
She's like, go down that road or no, whatever.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
So, I mean it got to a point. I mean
we were just in a bad place. And then the
situation with Miles happened. Right, So we have been finding that,
you know, people at the hospital were saying couples to
us or you know, usually be it would be a couple,
and they were struggling with their own situations with their

(28:21):
child who had cancer, and so we're like, oh, well,
you know, maybe let's let's just have conversations with people, right,
And then it built out from there, and I think
that's what ended up leading us down this road, especially
with the fact that he was going through coaching and
the first time that he was telling me about it,
I was like, wow, that sounds interesting. So there was

(28:42):
a two day and he was like, since we had
you know, I think you should go to the two
day and see how how it is for you. And
I'm like, yeah, that would be a good idea. So
I go and when I get out there, Yeah, everybody
needs coaching. That's the bottom line. And that's what I
said to him when I was done with that day.

(29:04):
After the two days, he said, well, how do you
think it went? I was like, everybody needs this, that's right,
everybody needs this. And you know, we were already getting
kind of referrals from people at the hospital, like, hey,
can you talk to these parents. They're going through something
similar with their children or with their child, and so,
you know, that was kind of, I think for me,

(29:25):
the kickoff to what formalized us being diving with them
later on. And maybe at the time it wasn't noticeable,
but that's I feel like that was like the jump
off section of it. And so we end up coming
together and just really thinking about like because he came
to me after his coaching, he was like, yeah, I

(29:47):
think I want to do this for the rest of
my life. I'm like, all right, that's what we're doing. Okay, cool,
you know, and so it's gonna cost this body, you
got it.

Speaker 5 (30:00):
This is what I want to do. This is this
is what I feel is my calling.

Speaker 4 (30:05):
And so the program was up and she was about
to start and I was like, what do won't do?

Speaker 5 (30:10):
Is I won't do it? Too.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:12):
I was like, okay, so I think we were the
only couple that I had gone through that that program, the.

Speaker 5 (30:17):
First and only couple ever go through that program, right, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
I had a similar journey through coaching. I worked in
corporate for a long time, and I think it was
like there was like a leadership thing, and the senior
leader within the organization that I worked with that he
brought his coach to this session that was like the

(30:44):
entire you know, department, like one hundred people, and and
he brought his coach and I was like, what is this?
I want to do that thing?

Speaker 4 (30:54):
Right?

Speaker 2 (30:54):
I didn't know what the name, I didn't know what,
you know, what it was called or any of that.
And and I walked up to the one and afterwards
and I asked her, like, what is this thing you do? Like,
tell me about it? And she told me. And then,
of course, as soon as you kind of raise your
hand for something, I started seeing things about coaching, you know, everywhere, right,
And then I discovered that I had been a coach

(31:17):
all along. I just didn't have the words for it, right.
And you talked before Rob about how everything you need
is inside of you and low key the Wizard of Oz,
the story of the Wiz. The Wizard of Oz and
then later the Wiz right is the undercurrent of everything

(31:41):
that I do as a coach. It was kind of
like the blueprint for me before I actually got startified
as a coach, and it has been the blueprint since
because it demonstrates what life looks like when you recognize
the fact that what you need you have. So whether
it was Judy Garland or Dana Ross or Stephanie Mills

(32:02):
or uh you know, whoever's playing it, that is the story.
And that's that's what I was thinking about. And when
I once I discovered coaching, I was like, I can't
go back to see in the world the same way.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah, it's hard to turn off.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
It's very hard to turn off.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, it's definitely hard to turn off when it comes
to this relationship here too.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
That's what I was gonna That was my next question.
So now you have two coaches, right, so we'll get
to the work you do with other couples. But how
do you all do it? Like, how are you like
coaching each other through things or how do you how
do you work that out? Do you have an agreement
with any between each other.

Speaker 10 (32:43):
I tell them, like, what happened was stuff, because that's
what we're.

Speaker 5 (32:53):
Supposed to do. That's right. That's right, we're.

Speaker 4 (32:56):
Supposed to because if we're doing life together, then who else?

Speaker 5 (33:01):
Like I got this from.

Speaker 4 (33:04):
Zoe Williams Wims all the time, relationships are mirrors.

Speaker 5 (33:10):
In classrooms, that's right.

Speaker 4 (33:12):
They reflect back to you the stuff that you need
to work on, and then you have the opportunity to
take the test and and figure out if you've worked
on that, and then when you don't pass.

Speaker 5 (33:24):
You get reflected back to that you haven't passed yet,
you know.

Speaker 4 (33:26):
So so the opportunity, the beautiful opportunity that we have
as a as a couple to have coaching skill set
is that we get the fast track, you know, our
our evolution, our transformation.

Speaker 8 (33:43):
You know, we can ten x one hundred x regular
couples who don't have the skill set of just being curious, right,
being uh.

Speaker 4 (33:55):
Being able to formulate the type of questions that really
get to the root call what may be going on.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
Which is really where that's where the juicy stuff is.
Because we talk about the dishes, the you know, you
left your shoes here.

Speaker 5 (34:12):
Well we talk about that.

Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, cile paper. We're gonna, you know, we're gonna debate
that for four days and twelve years. Right. My grandparents,
my grandparents on the Puerto Rican side, were married for
I don't know, like seventy years, a long time. They
lived a long life and they were married forever. And
my grandmother would be arguing about stuff that happened in

(34:34):
nineteen forty two, and she would be arguing about it
like it just happened. You'd like, it literally just happened.
She would just bust out with when we were in
Puerto Rico, blah blah blah. She just like go off on. So,
you know, I just I think that that I commend

(34:56):
you for having the courage to do that work and
then to be willing to reflect to each other, and
then also to be willing to support and help other
couples through their own journey or issues or whatever. That
is so moving now, you know, to kind of the

(35:17):
the inner the personal life thing. What are some of
the most common issues that you're that couples that you're
working with are, What are they facing?

Speaker 5 (35:28):
They don't listen to one another, They're hearing past one another.

Speaker 4 (35:32):
Yeah, when you are hearing to respond rather than listening
to to to really understand.

Speaker 5 (35:40):
That's where most of the breakdown.

Speaker 4 (35:42):
Happens because people get you know, wrapped up in their
own stuff that they don't take the time to figure
out what's going on, you know, with the person that
they're doing life with. So so here's a question. So
here's the thing. Judgment and curiosity cannot occupy.

Speaker 5 (36:04):
The same space.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
Hm hm. Tell me more.

Speaker 4 (36:07):
Either being judgmental or you're being curious, and do both, right, So,
if I'm listening to you, if I'm watching you, if
I'm observing you, if I'm interacting with you, I'm either
being curious about So with with the toilet tissue thing
right over and under, it's a difference between saying, why

(36:29):
the hell did she do the tissue like this?

Speaker 2 (36:33):
You're wrong, you're wrong, right.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah, or.

Speaker 5 (36:39):
I wonder why she did the tissue like.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
This and asking her And because sometimes we have a
whole story, like the whole story with a plot, there's
all and blackman, I was and I know it's because
and you think this.

Speaker 5 (36:59):
Yeah, yeah, none of it is true.

Speaker 1 (37:01):
Yeah, And I think what you said is important is
asking the other person, right, It's not just I wonder
why and keeping it to yourself, and then again playing
this conversation in your head between the two of you
that isn't happening.

Speaker 5 (37:14):
Or the committee all the fop six yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
All in your head, having a conversation, and then asking
the person right right, where where is this coming from?
Or how did how did you get to that point?
Or you know, what made you decide that that was
a better way of doing things or not a better
way of doing things? Right, Like, having a conversation is
the important part, because you can't keep it all to yourself.

(37:40):
Is not going to go anywhere. And then you're you're
still gonna be living in that moment, right, You're gonna
still be living. And I wonder why, or I wonder
what made them.

Speaker 4 (37:52):
X y Z yeah, And then like you said, making
up stuff, right, So, the wonder and curiosity.

Speaker 5 (38:00):
Leads to the question. The question leads to the answer.
The answer can lead to empathy. The empathy leads to patience. Right. So, once.

Speaker 4 (38:11):
I had to wonder about the toilet tissue and she
told me her answer, I was like, oh, you know what,
that makes sense.

Speaker 5 (38:18):
I can see how that makes sense to you.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
And then but it's still wrong, and I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
You should hit in my head. I'm like, because it's
gonna get dirty if it's the other way. It has
to be that way, so it's fresh. That's why it
goes over. But I'm not I'm gonna stay out of
this conversation.

Speaker 5 (38:36):
Hey, listen.

Speaker 4 (38:36):
Once once she gave her answer, like really, but when
I asked it from a place of true curiosity, and
she gave her answer, and I was like, wow, Okay,
I can see how that makes sense to you.

Speaker 5 (38:48):
It's not a problem for me anymore. Like it literally
wasn't a problem for me.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, And those are There are two things there. One
is creating a safe environment, because, like you said, judgment
and curiosity can't live in the same place. The person
being in a state of curiosity will invariably create a
safer environment for the other a safer space for the
other person to be able to share their truth. And

(39:15):
we're kind of joking around about toilet paper. It needs
to be over by the way, but we're joking about
toil paper. But for any of the conversations that couples
are having, I think it's so important to create that
safe space and rob understanding, you know, And I hope
people hear this. Right, the judgment and curiosity. When we're

(39:38):
in judgment, we're already putting the other person on the defense, right,
You're coming to that person as an adversary versus being
on the same team, and it creates the energy for
that conversation of conflict. But when you enter into the
conversation like, you know what, but we've been talking about

(40:03):
this thing for forty seven years, how's this?

Speaker 4 (40:05):
How's this?

Speaker 2 (40:06):
Why do you do?

Speaker 1 (40:09):
Well? Well, I'm gonna stop you there.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
Please go ahead.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
Don't ask why, don't ask why, because that's also defensive.

Speaker 5 (40:16):
Don't use the word.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
Don't use the word why when you're asking questions, ask
how and what questions? So now you you get the
open door to vulnerability. And and they're not so ass
defensive about it because what do.

Speaker 6 (40:29):
You mean why?

Speaker 1 (40:30):
What you mean?

Speaker 2 (40:31):
That's a good point.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
Because I did because that's what my mama said, or
my grandmama said, or my I did it that way
because you know, And now it's not just as defensive
as well, how how you know? Asking how and what
questions to how they got there?

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, okay, I received that. Thank you for that. What
have you two learned? About your relationship, because it is
one thing to make a decision and say, well, I'm
doing this coaching thing. Let's do it together, let's get
on it there. We're gonna be coaches and do this,
and then let's do it as a couple. And it's
another thing to put it into the practice of showing

(41:09):
up as a couple working with other couples, like, what
have you two learned about each other through doing this work?
They're both smiling. For those of you who are on audio,
they're smiling. So let's listen to see what they got
to say.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
I am riddled with trauma so much. I have a
lot of trauma in my life, and I'm just not
as vulnerable as I thought I wrote.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
You know, I yeah, because yeah, you're hearing these other stories. Also,
you have to see yourself in some of it.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
Some of it, some of it, Yes, some of it.
He don't see himself, but he's in there. Okay, Okay,
I absolutely, yes, so do I so do I. I
mean because a lot of the situations we've probably already
been there on that road. Yeah, And so you know,

(42:05):
I'll sit there sometimes and I'm just like, oh wow,
this is bringing up some feelings and some memories and
you know you got to a side after that too.

Speaker 5 (42:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:18):
And the real, the real day to day that you're
getting that with your question is like what Emily just said,
She'll she'll think that, she won't say it, she won't.

Speaker 5 (42:31):
Share that, right, share mind.

Speaker 8 (42:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (42:34):
Right, I'm like, hey, this is what came up.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
I'm learning, I'm learning.

Speaker 4 (42:37):
This is what we're twenty eight years in, right, this
is what came up with me. This is how it
impacted me. This is how, you know, I saw some
stuff that I could you know, I'll.

Speaker 5 (42:48):
Talk it through.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (42:51):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (42:51):
And and I had more practice too, so you know,
being in the nonprofit world, being a director and really
engaging with my staff and really having a director director
is engaged with me, you know, barely, you know, for
almost a decade. I got a lot of practice. So

(43:14):
you know, I you know, I'm curious.

Speaker 5 (43:17):
I give grace, you know what I mean. So, but
that's the difference.

Speaker 4 (43:20):
So when you first ask questions, because we just talked
about this, I think yesterday did.

Speaker 5 (43:25):
Talk about surfing because.

Speaker 4 (43:28):
I just learned started learning surfing a couple of years ago,
and so we were talking about either being are we.

Speaker 5 (43:34):
On the same surfboard, like, no, we're on different surfboards.

Speaker 4 (43:38):
Maybe on the same wave, right, yeah, and that wave,
And because we're on different parts of the wave, we're
going to end our ride at different times.

Speaker 5 (43:49):
You know what I mean, you may not. So we
were just talking about.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
This for the audience. I just want to mention or
ask you question, and that is, if you're partnered what's
a conversation that you've been avoiding and what would happen
if you were to approach that conversation with love, honesty,
no judgment, and curiosity. And so that's the challenge for

(44:19):
those folks who are listening and who are partnered up,
because we all have those conversations at different times where
it's like we can talk about all this stuff, but
this I may not be ready to talk about. So
I think sometimes helping people to step into to that,
to step into that space of discomfort, can help you

(44:44):
to get to that juicy stuff in the middle, like,
this is the root of what's really going on between us.
It's not about the toilet paper or the dishes or
the whatever. It's something else that's going on.

Speaker 5 (44:56):
Before you move away from that. I want to add
to that on a real practical level. And what's what
it's not right, it's easiest. Well, I asked you the question.
I was curious, like, no, that was the way. The
question was still rooted in judgment.

Speaker 4 (45:13):
I want to know what you did when you did
because you asked a question.

Speaker 5 (45:17):
Don't mean it's curious.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
Oh I love that. Thank you, Thank you for that distinction,
because there are people everywhere right now going so I'm
just curious, what's.

Speaker 8 (45:29):
Wrong with you?

Speaker 5 (45:33):
I was curious it was rooted in judgment?

Speaker 4 (45:37):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah, And how do you know as the person asking
the question, how do you know when something is rooted
in judgment?

Speaker 5 (45:46):
Why? Why? Why the heck did you do that? I
just why you did? I wonder why you did that.
I was curious to know.

Speaker 4 (46:02):
I was thinking about and just reflecting to myself about
my role that what happened, and I could see my
role and I could have did this differently, But I
really know I was curious about for you, you know,
how did that play out for you or what was
underneath that for you?

Speaker 5 (46:20):
What what triggered that respond from me energetically? It's just
totally different, different, And I.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
Think also what comes with that is when you tell
the other partner when you tell the person like, you know,
I want to share something with you about this conversation.
Remember the conversation we had like two weeks ago about
da da da or last night and me had blah
blah blah. Remember, I just want to share with you

(46:50):
what I was going through and what was going through
my mind at the time. And so then I'm giving
my perspective in my part of like what happened, and
then I can ask the question, so, you know, how
do you feel about what I'm saying? You know, you know,
because it really really bothered me when this thing happened
that I'm just wondering, you know, what was going on

(47:11):
with you possibly, you know, what could you have been,
you know, just thinking of during that time. I know
we didn't talk about it back then, but it's really
been on my mind lately. You know, do you mind
if we revisit you know, can we talk about it
a little bit more and unpacking a little bit more.
So it gives a way for the other person because
you're saying, I want to share your being vulnerable at

(47:32):
that time exactly, I want to share something that I've
been going through when we had this conversation about X,
Y Z, and then that can open, you know, a doorway.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
Also because there are couples everywhere where there's a person
saying I want you to be more vulnerable, be more
vulnerable to me, and demonstrating what that looks like and
demonstrating the current, because it takes courage to be vulnerable,
to say the thing right, and demonstrating that vulnerability will

(48:08):
for the other person create a safer space for them
to be able to meet you in kind, you know,
and also to understand that, you know, we're all doing
the best we can. And so sometimes a conversation people
process differently, and people like you said the wave, you know,
we're all riding a wave at a different time, and

(48:29):
someone's board might be going over a different wave at
a different time. I don't surf. I'm imagining that that's
what it's my body surf, a body serf. But you
know you're going through waves at a different time, and
so we don't. We're not all. You can be so
deeply in love with a person, and I think it's
important to understand that you're also to individual people and

(48:52):
you don't process in the same way, and we don't
see things the same way all the time, and so
some of them is also helping to fill in those
blanks so that a person can look at you as
for who you are, not for what or who they
expect you to be.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
You know, allow yourself the time to pause. Oh please, yeah,
for that processing time, right. You know, there was a
time when I say, okay, you know what, we need
a pause right here, or like I need to time out,
and then I never go back to it again, so
that I've come to the point where I'm just like
learning from those moments too. So I know that somebody

(49:33):
out there is like, yeah, we're gonna take this time
out forever. It's not ever, because it's going to come
back again, like that same issue, that same challenge, that
same you know, concern that you have definitely comes up
again later on, Like it doesn't go away until you
resolve whatever that is. So just know that you may

(49:56):
think your pause is going to go away, is going
to stay there until you actually have the conversation. So
you know, think about that too.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Allowing it to be a pause versus a procrastination.

Speaker 4 (50:09):
And to your point, we got you know, when looking
at and seeing the personal who they are, like I'm
a Southerner, grew up in Alabama.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
I'm in New Yorker.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
What where in New York South Bronx. I'm from Brooklyn.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
And then when you say you have the Puerto Rican South,
I just came back from Puerto Rico with my Puerto
Rican People's what.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
Okay? My mother was Puerto Rican, my father was Haitian. Yeah,
and I was I was brought up and born and bred,
bread and born anyway, I grew up in Brooklyn. Yeah, yes, ma'am, Yes, ma'am.

Speaker 5 (50:50):
So it's just knowing that most sensibilities.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Of each Yeah, there's a difference there too, right, Like
a person who grew up in Alabama is going to
have a very very different experience and outlook or a
different programming, a different culture, you know, from a person
who grew up in the South Bronx and you know
in New York. It's just different, right, And I think
that sometimes we assume that because we love that, that

(51:15):
means that we're supposed to know everything, and it's an unpacking.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
In addition to that, he grew up as an only child, Okay,
I grew up with my brothers, right, and that dynamic
is there too, how we were raised within our families
and how they all communicated with each other, right, Like,
all of those things play into each other, so you

(51:40):
really got to get to know the person.

Speaker 5 (51:43):
In all a while. Even though my parents were divorce,
everybody else in my family is married. Okay, that's not
the case for her, right.

Speaker 4 (51:52):
So, even though my folks were divorce, I saw married people, married,
couple engaged all the time, So that wasn't her experience.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
And you two have are living a lifetime twenty eight
years and for how long have you been partnering on
this work, the diving within work together.

Speaker 5 (52:27):
Yeah, since twenty sixteen.

Speaker 4 (52:29):
We finished our program in twenty sixteen, officially twenty seventeen.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
Diving then, So okay, and I think that's an incredible thing,
what an incredible journey to be willing to extend your
heart in that way to other couples to kind of
help them through the nuance of figuring out how to
be in relationship with each other. You know, what wisdom

(53:06):
would you want families who are facing loss or the
loss of a loved one to take away from your
journey about grief, legacy, renewed hope.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
I would say, find ways to celebrate your loved one.
You know, when Miles when he went home to the
Lord or transitioned, it was July two thousand and eight,
and by the end of that year January eleventh, two

(53:45):
thousand and nine, we were celebrating his birthday. And that's
how we found well, that's how we found and engaged
our friends to come celebrate with him right and find
ways to just celebrate your loved one. And we found
that it actually helped people who had lost their grandmother
or their mom, or their dad or whatever it was,

(54:08):
whoever it was, I'm sorry whoever it was that they
may have loved in their life, they didn't know how
to celebrate their loved one. And when they came to
our celebration and they saw how we were still lifting
Miles up even though we had just months before not

(54:29):
been with him, that day brought I think a renewed
light in people and showed them and they were like, wow,
I can celebrate my loved one too, Like it didn't
have to be all sad, And you know, the grieving
process is always going to be there. And it's like

(54:52):
music in the background. You know, sometimes you're doing dishes
and you got music playing or you got the TV playing.
Sometimes you hear it loud and you're like, oh, what
was that. That's grief to me. Times it's upfront and
it's loud, and then sometimes it's just playing in the background,
but it's always playing for us. It's always there. It's

(55:13):
always going to be there. And then there are moments
when I can tell you the story about Miles and
our journey with him and smile and be great, and
then the next time I tell that story to another person,
I'm in tears. Because that's how grief works. You're going
to be emotional about it. And some days it's just

(55:36):
upfront and loud, and then there's some days where it's
just in the background, low plane, but it's always there.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Thank you for sharing that, because I think, you know,
my my brother passed away, my mother and my father,
and I think one of the things that I did
not know, and my brother was the first person to
pass away that I ever knew, actually, and one of
the things that at the time I was working in

(56:04):
corporate and there was like a certain amount of time
that you get off for grievance, right for grief, and
it's like a week or two weeks or whatever it is,
and then I realized that it's not in that one
like that's just the initial shock, that's what it is, right.
The real process happens over time. And my brother passed

(56:30):
away in nineteen eighty eight, so it's been a while, right,
my father in, my father, my brother je Michelle Bosquia.
My father Gerard Bosqueia, passed away in July of twenty thirteen,
and my mother, Matilda basque Ya, passed away in November
of two thousand and eight. And for me, it's their birthdays, right,

(56:55):
it's that And there's always a moment on the you know,
that day that it happen that you know, there's a
reflection or there's a thought or i'm you know that
they are present for me in that moment in a
different way, But it's different every time. You know, there's
no Ah. It's life and passing and there's no kind

(57:20):
of like twelve step formula. We go through it. Sometimes
it's one way and other times it's another way. And
I commend you both for really stepping into doing what
you can, you know, to support other people before we break.

(57:41):
I'd love to know about miles ahead of cancer? What
is that? What is that nonprofit, what are you doing
with that?

Speaker 1 (57:52):
So what we would like to do with that is
to build it out even further. And Robert had vision
of a building with all these services inside of it
that we would be able to help these families. One
of the one of the biggest things that I feel
that we have talked about throughout the years is that

(58:16):
we want to be similar to make a wish, you know,
we want to be able to give families the opportunity
that we didn't get.

Speaker 6 (58:24):
To have.

Speaker 4 (58:32):
Own experience with Mae.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
With whatever the ideal organization is.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
So well, we'll talk about that offline, you know what
happened to us with that situation, But in any case,
we want to give them and afford them the possibility
of having the trip if they so choose to have
the trip. Okay, because when your child is no longer here,

(59:03):
sometimes you need that space to find some solace in
that child not being here anymore. And some people don't
need it, some people don't need to have some time away.
But we did and we did not get the opportunity

(59:25):
to fulfill or make a wish with Miles. What ended
up happening is later that my brother and his sister,
my brother, and my sister in law. They end up
moving up their wedding by like a month or something
in order for us to attend their weddings so that
we can have a get away. So we end up

(59:46):
going to New York like that decent that Christmas, December,
January and time do. We stayed there for two weeks
and they pulled all their points together and everything. But
we want them to be able to family, to be
able to decide for themselves. Is that what they need?
Do they need this trip so that they can have,

(01:00:09):
you know, some time with their family, to be able
to just reflect and just get away from what's happening
in that moment. Because I will say this, and I'll
I'll go.

Speaker 5 (01:00:20):
Back to.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
What happened with our friends when things are fresh and
it just happened. Everybody's there there bringing the pots and
the pants full of food, and everyone is there. But
what we found was that everybody goes back to their
life three months two months after your child or your

(01:00:46):
significant person is no longer there, and they go back
to living and then the two of you and your
family are is like, now we got to live this
new normal without this person being here m hm. So
I think for us to have a location where we
have these systems in place, for families to be able

(01:01:09):
to have their wishes granted, have a place for coaching,
have a place for just all the all the things
that they might need. You can you can chime instance,
it was your vision of the building, but just having
all just having all that in one space so that
you know it's all in one they can come here

(01:01:31):
and they can feel like they're not alone.

Speaker 4 (01:01:35):
Yeah, there was the the umbrella even underdoggling within a
wellness space compound. But when we look at not but
additionally looking at specifically Miles a head of cancer, it
was how do we support families who need help with bills?

(01:01:56):
Because we both took leaves of absences from work, you know,
uh the illustrate up Quick Quick.

Speaker 5 (01:02:04):
Quit her job and I was caretaking. I took a
lead from my job.

Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
And then you know, after a certain point in time,
you know, things just got tight right financially, So you
know what people need, uh that support with bills, maybe
a carnal maybe you know, the mortgage whatever.

Speaker 5 (01:02:24):
They also want, you know, to get away. It was
an opportunity for them to get away.

Speaker 4 (01:02:28):
You know, first class them whatever it is, just just
let us take care of you for a little bit,
just for a moment. And also, you know, scholarships, you know,
if you got other kids. That's a great thing about
the Ronald McDonalds House and charities. There wasn't a Ronald
McDonald's house at the hospital where we were, so we

(01:02:50):
did a lot of sleeping on couches, their family floors,
family room, and and so now you know ron McDonald house,
this place where families could stay and sleep and wash clothes.
And yet right next to the hospital, we didn't have that.
So we support their charities in that way. And it's like,
how do you know we support families, you know, whether

(01:03:15):
it's they know. So let we got a great network
in people. So we may know someone who knows that
celebrity that you like. We may know someone knows that
ballplayer you like. We may know someone who knows that
singer you like, and let us figure that out and
make that meeting happen.

Speaker 5 (01:03:32):
So that's the main thing for.

Speaker 4 (01:03:34):
Scholarships, dream meetings, dream vacations, and how can we help
people on a real level with their bills and with
you know, just making sure you don't lose everything while
you're in this fight with your child.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
We lost everything that year. We lost our savings, we
lost our home, and then Myles.

Speaker 5 (01:03:56):
Was no longer with us and.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
Friends, I have two more questions for you. One, UH
is how are Miles's siblings doing?

Speaker 5 (01:04:13):
Wow? We we I'll say this.

Speaker 11 (01:04:18):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:04:18):
The youngest, Diego, he and I were the three of us.

Speaker 4 (01:04:23):
We were having a family meeting actually in this room,
in this in this in this conference room.

Speaker 5 (01:04:32):
Uh.

Speaker 11 (01:04:32):
And and it came I don't you know, it was
something going on with him, and it came up, and
there was this little back and forth banter about Miles.

Speaker 5 (01:04:43):
And in the moment he expressed himself, was like, you
don't know how it is to lose a brother. And
I had to.

Speaker 4 (01:04:51):
Catch myself because I was like, what do you mean,
I lost a son?

Speaker 5 (01:04:55):
You don't know how it is be a parent child.

Speaker 4 (01:04:58):
But I had to pauls and and afterwards I had
to go back to him and say, you know what, son,
You're right, I don't you know, but let's talk about it,
you know. So they have their own experiences, especially Diego,
because they were only a year apart, so they were
the closest Miles in the oldest older ones were nine,
you know, almost ten years apart, but so they were

(01:05:19):
still close to because they were part of caretaking and yeah, you.

Speaker 5 (01:05:23):
Know, being a brother and big sister. But yeah, it
was tough on them too.

Speaker 4 (01:05:28):
So so to hear Diego say that, and this was
just a few months ago, it was the beginning of
the year. Huh, him saying, you don't know how it feels,
and had conviction behind his words too, like.

Speaker 5 (01:05:39):
You don't know how it feels a loser brother, Like, wow, right,
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
May I share the voice of a sibling.

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
So one of the things that I realized many years later,
and my sister and I realized, my sister Shannie and
I realized was that because our parents lost a child,
and it wasn't anything that they said, it was just

(01:06:08):
the sheer, unimaginable heartbreak in that we in some ways
unconsciously took a step back because their grief was always
trumped our grief and it wasn't an intentional thing, and

(01:06:29):
it wasn't anything that either of my parents did, But
I think it was just the natural reaction to what
was going on. It's like, oh, I lost my brother,
but they lost their child. And to watch us, for us,
to watch them go through that process, which is obviously

(01:06:51):
a heartbreaking process. I know you understand that, and later
that I didn't, I knew it, and I couldn't really
are take like I didn't see the I didn't see
it with the same through the same lens until much
later on. And so in some ways, I suspended my grief,

(01:07:13):
the full breath of my grief. And as we said before,
grief isn't just in those seventy two hours, it's like,
you know, decades. In a lot of ways, I suspended
my grief because I didn't feel, I didn't believe that
my grief was as important as theirs, you know. So

(01:07:34):
I just wanted to share that, you know, for for
whatever it's worth, you know, as the sibling who went
through who went through this process of losing losing my brother,
you know, and it's not something that families, it doesn't
have it just I think it's something that could be.
It's that hard conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:07:57):
That I.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Wish that we could have brought to completion and resolved
in my parents' lifetime.

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
M sorry, I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
Yeah, and thank you for being willing to hear that.

Speaker 6 (01:08:14):
I just.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
I didn't want to leave this conversation without sharing that
because it's it's you know, it's a thing. And my
sister and I we talk about the fact that, you know,
it was like we were three legs to a stool,
right and now there are two legs to the stool,
and what has had to happen in our relationship to
kind of like figure out how to interact and what

(01:08:40):
that means for us. So and I'm saying it because
and I hope you'll forgive me, and I hope you
understand the heart with which I'm sharing it. There are
so many people that I hear of and that I
know of, some people that we all know, like public figures,
and some are you know, the neighbor down the street,
who are going through the same or have gone through

(01:09:03):
the same kind of loss, you know. And uh, And
it's something that I would hope that families would in
our healing journeys as we're navigating it. You know that
there's space that that we're creating for us to all share.
So I commend your son for Diego, for having the

(01:09:26):
courage to say, you know, what what he needed to say,
and for you to be willing to hear that and
to have created a safe enough space for him to
speak that to you. And I'm so sorry that that happened,
and I'm also so happy that you both are standing

(01:09:48):
and doing the amazing work that you're doing in the world.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
You know, thank you to you. Yeah, yeah, I'll share
this about Bobby and Kayla. There was a point in
time that Kayla didn't want to even talk about She
didn't want to talk about her brothers. It's like something
that was like, Oh, that happened. Then I've moved on,
and she I don't think that she even had the words,
and I'm not been so sure if even now that

(01:10:14):
she has the words to express and I think Bobby's
like that to a certain extent too. It's like, yeah,
it happened, and I've had to get myself together because
I've got these other things I gotta do. So I
really commend you and your sister for even having the
conversation to process that together and lean on each other, right,

(01:10:40):
lean on each other. Bobby, Kayla, and Diego now have
a different kind of relationship than they used to because
they're leaning on each other now versus a long time ago.
I think they were all in just like their own
separate spaces. So I think now they're coming around to like,

(01:11:02):
oh yeah, this is my brother, Like I can lean
on this other person and then they understand my experience.

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
That's the grieving process. It's over time. It's over it's
over time. And as we change, as we grow, as
we mature, as we become a little more connected to
you know, ourselves, we we we the way that we
approach things evolves as well. I've enjoyed speaking with you
too so much, and uh, I could talk to you

(01:11:32):
for hours, but I'm get in trouble if I do
here because Xaber hasn't popped his head out yet to
be like, how can we support you?

Speaker 4 (01:11:46):
Let's see Instagram diving underscore within.

Speaker 5 (01:11:51):
Miles ahead of cancer, miles ahead of cancer. Those are
the better ways.

Speaker 4 (01:11:59):
I'm transitioning some coaching to focus on C suite level.

Speaker 5 (01:12:04):
Black Man and I have a podcast, Skinny Black's Lounge.

Speaker 4 (01:12:10):
Sbl Underscore host is where you can find me on Instagram.

Speaker 5 (01:12:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
Yeah, we have a website miles ahead of cancer dot
org and you can see like some pictures of miles.
We also have a friend who decided to change his
to change his tournament name to honor our son Miles.
So Miles McGowan Coaches Classic. We actually just got back

(01:12:38):
from the Bay a couple of weeks ago where they
do a basketball tournament and it was like almost twenty
years ago.

Speaker 5 (01:12:46):
I think it was when he.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
Changed the name. When he changed the name to honor
our son. So we go up there to the Bay
third weekend in August or close to the third weekend
in August, and it's changed the first week second okay,
well in August we do celebrate Miles at that event,

(01:13:10):
celebrate his birthday of course, and then we do our
own personal celebration on Li thirtieth every year, you know,
for him. But you can find us on Instagram Miles
ahead of Cancer also with a y M y l Ees.

Speaker 4 (01:13:26):
So with that tournament in the Bay, it's one Buddy
cameo and coach Cam. It's gym's in the gym, and
it's another avenue for people to really talk about their
grief and the gating process and people who've been an
impacted by cancer because we all.

Speaker 2 (01:13:43):
Have on some level or another.

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
Yeah, absolutely, whether it's our auntie, our cousin, someone has
had to battle cancer and you see that in the room.
Yeah yeah, when we're they're celebrating, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:13:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):
Well, I want to thank you to Emily and Rob McGowan.

Speaker 5 (01:14:02):
Thank you, Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:14:03):
Parents, to Miles and Diego and Bobby and Kaylen. Bobby
and Kayla married twenty eight years. Doing the hard work
of becoming coaches and sitting there and working through your
own things while you're supporting other people doing that. Rob,

(01:14:27):
you doing the work of helping C suite black men
a very nuanced and unique experience. I congratulate you and
applaud you for that. Emily, I applaud you for your
heart and for all the hard work that you're doing.
And what a beautiful family. Thank you so much for

(01:14:48):
spending this time with me. I've enjoyed it immensely.

Speaker 4 (01:14:52):
Thank you, Thank you for this platform, Thank you for you,
Thank you for being homebole in this moment. Thank you
for sharing what you share, putting yourself out there. We
don't take it lightly and appreciate you at all.

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
And you know, choose your person every day.

Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
Choose your person every day, have those hard conversations, get
to know who each other, who you are. Yes, so so, listeners,
thank you so much for showing up yet again. I
hope that you got a lot out of this episode.
There is so much in it about relationship, about healing,

(01:15:34):
about resilience, about vulnerability, about finding ways to take the
things that happen in life and turning it into turning
them into something that is healing and helpful, both for
the person going through it, the people going through with
the family going through it, and those with whom they

(01:15:57):
interact and encourage you to first of all, like share, comment, engage,
and secondly to have the conversations that you know are
on your spirit to have and have those conversations with

(01:16:18):
the energy and tone that Rob and Emily McGowan shared
with us, with out judgment and with curiosity, and with
curiosity without tone. Love each other, Love each other, be authentic,
be vulnerable. That is where that is the gateway to

(01:16:42):
truly understanding and accepting one another. So thank you again.
This is Lisan Boskia. I appreciate all of you so much,
and until next time, love and peace,