“I'm talking dry sowing because we've got a whole range of new pre-emergent herbicides, mostly from other groups, so group 13 and so on, and group 15, which have completely different properties to what we had 20 years ago.
“We've actually now got an opportunity where we can use that set of chemistry to deal with our ryegrass issues and add to that our crop competition from getting our crop in early in the season. So it's just thinking, I think, about the whole system and saying, well, instead of trying to make knockdown herbicides work all the time, what if we replace knockdown herbicides with something that's different?” - Professor Chris Preston
In the sixth episode of the BCG’s podcast series Planning for Prosperity BCG’s Janine Batters speaks with The University of Adelaide’s Weed Management Professor Chris Preston about the possible implications of the APVMA’s review of paraquat and diquat and alternative weed control options. The conversation also includes Chris’s top herbicide and planning tips to control weeds to maximise moisture capture this summer.
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About Dr Chris Preston
Dr Chris Preston is Professor of weed management at the University of Adelaide. He works on understanding and management of herbicide resistant weeds.
The research of the weed science group at the University of Adelaide is focussed on better management of weeds in agricultural cropping systems. Areas of current research activity include: the evolution, biochemical mechanisms and management of herbicide resistant weeds, ecology and biology and management of emerging weeds in agriculture, gene flow from herbicide tolerant crops and its implications for farm management, risk assessment for weeds and herbicide tolerant crops and patterns of genetic diversity in weed populations.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:00):
This podcast is sponsored by Action Steel.
S2 (00:06):
I'm talking dry showing because we've got a whole range
of new pre-emergent herbicides, mostly from other groups. So group
13 and so on, and group 15, which have completely
different properties to what we had 20 years ago. We've
actually now got an opportunity where we can use that
set of chemistry to deal with our weed, our ryegrass issues,
(00:30):
and add to that our crop competition from getting our
crop in early in the season. So it's just thinking,
I think about the whole system and saying instead of
trying to make knock down herbicides work all the time,
what if we replaced knock down herbicides with something that's different?
S1 (00:48):
Hello and welcome back to Shared Solutions by BCG. I'm
Janine Batters and in this episode we're very lucky to
be speaking with Professor Chris Preston about some away control
and some of the things that we need to be
thinking about in the lead up to summer and really
getting a good kill on these weeds. Welcome, Chris.
S2 (01:08):
Thanks for having me.
S1 (01:09):
Super excited to have you on our podcast, Chris. So
for a start, I think probably everybody that's listening to
this podcast is going to know who you are. So
I'm not going to ask you to introduce yourself. What
I thought might be interesting is if you could tell us,
how did you get into all of this? What made
(01:29):
you decide that you wanted to be one of the
leading experts in weeds?
S2 (01:34):
The short version of it is that I've got a
training in plant biochemistry, I've got a chemistry degree, and
I was working in the US a number, well, three
decades ago now, working on biofuels. And eventually one day
I decided that nobody really cared about biofuels that much.
And I want to do something that people cared about.
So I look for other things to do. And I
(01:54):
kind of fell into agriculture by accident. But one of
the things that I discovered when I started working on
herbicide resistant weeds, which back then was more of an
academic pursuit than what it is now, was that actually
farmers were really interested in finding out ways to farm better,
and they were really interested in the sort of research
that I was doing that seemed to be perhaps going
(02:18):
to give them some insights on how to do that.
One of the things about working on weeds is that
things change all the time. Well, there's going to be
trying to think creatively about how are we going to
tackle these new problems that are coming. And there's already
some well and truly on the horizon, I'm sure we're
going to talk about on this podcast, but the whole
Apvma paraquat review is getting me to rethink, look, what
(02:41):
are we going to do, particularly around the double Knock?
S1 (02:44):
Can you give me your thoughts on the Apvma review
on paraquat and Diquat, and how you think that will
affect farmers?
S2 (02:52):
Well, I think farmers are actually quite a lot worried
about the outcome of the review. And they're looking at it.
Perhaps they're going to completely lose these products. The current
proposal from the Apvma suggests that we're going to lose
a lot of users of these products, and we will
have reduced rates for most of the users that are left. Now,
(03:16):
this is going to be challenging for farmers. However, what
the current proposal is mightn't be what we end up
getting handed. So industry has made quite a number of
submissions to the Apvma about various aspects of their review,
and so we might get a few more use patterns back.
(03:36):
We might get some higher rates, but I'm moderately convinced
that we won't go back to the rates that we have,
and we won't go back to all the use patterns
we have. I'm looking forward and going, okay, if we're
going to have reduced rates and reduced use patterns, what
can we do that's going to fill the spaces that
(04:00):
the review is going to lead us in? Some of
our challenging situations. And so one of those is the
double knock. We've used the double knock very widely to
help us manage glyphosate resistant weeds. And if we don't
have the right to paraquat we've been using, are there
other things that we can do? For example, with the
(04:21):
reduced rate of paraquat we've got or adding other practices
to that. So that might be other herbicides or maybe
other things that we can do that will help us
get over that problem. I'm finding the thinking and the
challenge about the double knock in summer as being harder,
because there's really fewer options available for us in that space.
(04:44):
But nonetheless, I think that we will look at some
of those and look to see what the opportunities are.
There is a level of urgency about this because the
decision will be made probably sometime next year, and then
labels will change after that. But it's not something that
we have to get done for this coming season. We'll
(05:05):
still be able to use paraquat as the current labels
for the time being.
S1 (05:10):
What are some of the recommendations that you think you
might be putting forward? If the Apvma do make this change.
S2 (05:19):
In the double NOx based, um, sort of things that
I've been thinking about is that I've done a couple
of years of research where we've been looking essentially at
cropping without glyphosate because of, at that time, the potential
risk that some of our key markets might ban glyphosate.
But I think that whole thinking can be also repurposed
(05:43):
cropping without paraquat. So what we are essentially looking at
there is how can we make glufosinate work in that space,
and what is the sort of set of practices we
might have to get something that'll be effective enough for
that knockdown space. So we were looking at Glufosinate plus
(06:04):
group 14 herbicide. So these are your spike herbicides things
like sharpen and so on. And we were looking at
dry seeding as potential options in that space. So instead
of having a glufosinate mixture followed up by paraquat we
might have to have a double knock. That's glufosinate mixture
followed up by glyphosate. The opportunities for products like Amatol
(06:27):
in that space. So there's a herbicide called gorilla, which
is a mix of paraquat plus amatol that might have
an opportunity in some of that space. But I think
it's a thing that we have to explore. We have
to explore what are the things that we can do.
And then when we work out which ones seem to
be effective, then we should look at how is that
(06:48):
actually going to work for a farmer.
S1 (06:50):
So what was the one that you said? Was it.
S2 (06:54):
Glufosinate. So this is sold as Liberty for use in canola.
But it does have a pre crop registration as in
the product before.
S1 (07:05):
What group is that.
S2 (07:06):
Each group.
S1 (07:07):
Ten okay. And you don't.
S2 (07:09):
Use very much of it. It's a lot cheaper than
it used to be. But when we're talking about comparisons
to glyphosate most of our herbicides are expensive. So, um,
this will be more expensive than what we're currently doing.
Probably not. Massively so.
S1 (07:27):
Okay, that's good news. And it's good news that you're
already thinking about this. Is there any other alternatives that
you've been looking into other than chemicals?
S2 (07:36):
Our other alternatives at that time are fairly limited. So,
you know, for example, we used to use tillage to
control weeds at that period. But one of the things
that tillage did was it damaged our soils. It removed
the crop residue we had on the testing the soils,
it delayed sowing from most perspectives. Tillage is not an
(07:59):
attractive option. The sort of new bits of chemistry that
are out there, or new bits of non chemistry, I
should say, that are out there that you might be
hearing about things like we've heard about microwaves, for example,
and lasers and electrocution of weeds. Most of those, I
think are going to be too slow for that particular purpose.
Where we have tried to change things up is to
(08:22):
really have a bit of a focus on can we
get all this done with dry sowing? And so we're
not actually using knock down herbicides, and we're going to
use instead a combination of our pre-emergent herbicides plus crop competition.
So really that focused more around dry sowing in particular
with wheat compared to say some of the other crops.
(08:42):
Looking at how do we take advantage of that competitive
ability we get from sowing wheat early and using the
right set of pre-emergent herbicides to actually fill that space
and take the pressure off those knockdown herbicides that we've had.
So this is it's still using chemistry, but it's using
(09:03):
chemistry and other practices. So it's not a direct we're
going to replace paraquat with this herbicide. We're actually going
to replace paraquat with the system.
S1 (09:13):
And that system is dry sowing.
S2 (09:16):
Dry sowing. And you won't be able to dry. So
every year of course. But this would be an opportunistic approach.
I'm talking dry sowing because we've got a whole range
of new pre-emergent herbicides, mostly from other groups. So group
13 and so on, and group 15, which have completely
different properties to what we had 20 years ago. So
(09:37):
20 years ago when we were reliant on trifluralin as
our pre-emergent herbicide. Yeah, dry sowing was a thing that
people only did when they really had no other choice.
With the range of products we have available now, and
particularly with our ability to have some use some of
these herbicides as an early post-emergent herbicide in crop. So
(09:59):
things like box gold, uh, sulfur, carp, mattino complete, for example.
We've actually now got an opportunity where we can use
that set of chemistry to deal with our weed, our
ryegrass issues. And add to that our crop competition from
getting our crop in early in the season. So it's
(10:20):
just thinking, I think about the whole system and saying
instead of trying to make knockdown herbicides work all the time,
what if we replaced knock down herbicides with something that's different?
S1 (10:32):
I'm quite a hands on kind of learner. Chris, can
you talk me through this approach? So I want to.
So barley in a paddock next year. Talk me through
the system.
S2 (10:46):
The sort of options that you might have in barley
might be that you would show it dry, and you
might use Trifluralin or even Trifluralin plus Avonex as your
pre-emergent herbicide in a dry seeding system. And then you might,
if ryegrass comes through, that you might come back in
crop with some box of gold, for example, or some Pacifica,
(11:07):
or even if you need it a little bit extra
weed control. You could use matino complete in that circumstance.
So this is about thinking about how do you take
advantage of the competition that barley is going to give you.
So you only have to have weed control for a
few weeks. If you've sown barley at early in the season,
(11:29):
it's going to end up covering the ground and getting
canopy closure quite quickly because the soil's warm.
S1 (11:35):
Okay, so where does glycine okay.
S2 (11:38):
Glufosinate comes into this. So if you want to use
a more traditional knockdown approach, either you've had rain in
early to mid-April where it's kind of still too early
to sew and you need to get rid of the
vegetation that's currently there. So that's where you would go.
All right. We're going to need to control some weeds there.
(11:59):
We probably don't have enough paraquat for our traditional double
knock to work. What are our other alternatives? The problem
of using glufosinate in that space is it's got a plant.
Back to sowing your crop of two weeks on the label.
So if you're going to double knock, you have to
put glufosinate in your first knock so you can come
back with glyphosate in your second knock. And instead of
(12:21):
the traditional double knock we've had where you would use
glyphosate and you could come back the next day with paraquat,
we're going to have to require a longer space between
the two herbicides, because our glufosinate tends to be a
a bleacher. It burns the leaves off plants. And if
you've got glyphosate sitting on the outside and you burn
(12:41):
the leaf off, you're not going to get as much
glyphosate taken up. So you need to wait that little
bit of extra time until any surviving weeds start to regrow.
And then you hit them with the glyphosate component. And
I think the in thinking about it that way, the
kind of unknown question there is that if you're going
to put a group 14 herbicide in to help this,
(13:02):
which part of that would you put it in? The
work we did with Glufosinate suggested that probably Virachkul was
the best Group 14 herbicide to mix with it. That
also has a plant back for most crops on the label.
And so in that case, you'd probably think of putting
the virachkul in with that first knock. So probably in
with the glyphosate component. Now there are other things that
(13:25):
we could do because we still will have paraquat at
a lower rate. So for example, we could decide that
instead of putting glyphosate in as that second knock, we
could put paraquat plus our group 14 in that second knock.
And in which case we'd probably want to use maybe
something like Terrador where we don't have that plant back problem.
(13:46):
So there's lots of options. It's a case of what's
going to work. Depending upon the weed spectrum you have
and what you're trying to do.
S1 (13:54):
So you're really talking my language, Chris, when you go
into the details of it, was there any more advice
that you would have in the meantime?
S2 (14:03):
I think the Glufosinate work is going to be a
couple of years till we've got a really good idea
of what the best approaches are. So at the moment
we've done a bit of work around without glyphosate, but
we now need to do the same thing with our
paraquat essentially. I think we'll have an idea by the
time farmers are probably going to have to really focus on,
(14:24):
I can't use the traditional double knock, what am I
going to do? We'll probably have some better idea about that.
But I think the idea of dry seeding, particularly wheat, but,
you know, you can dry so some of your other
crops with advantage. It's something farmers can probably do. Now
if we get a dry start to a season, hopefully
(14:45):
they've learnt a bit about what are the bits of
chemistry that really suit dry sewing compared to the ones
that don't? And certainly I've talked a fair bit over
the years about which ones we should be focusing on.
Things like peroxide Sulfone Trifluralin really suit dry sewing. So
if you know you've got a big problem and you're
going to go dry sewing, you probably need something in
(15:06):
crop as well as that pre-emergent herbicide. So I think
this is a practice that farmers can go, yeah, we
can take on this now if we get a dry
start next year and then we don't have to worry
about what rate of paraquat we're using because we're not
using it.
S1 (15:20):
Okay. But if the apvma rule in the next couple
of months is that likely.
S2 (15:26):
I think it's unlikely that we would have label change
by the time of sowing next year. That's my current feeling,
because the Apvma has got to review all the material
that's been sent to it. If it reviews all the
material that's been sent to it and works out really quickly.
(15:47):
It doesn't change our decision. Then maybe we might see
some changes more quickly, but I'm suspecting that what will
happen is that they'll look at it and they'll go,
oh yeah, we didn't actually consider that piece of information.
We might have to go back and revisit our decision,
and if that's the case, then that'll take extra time.
(16:08):
So it's one of those kind of hard ones to
predict when we're going to see it. I mean, the
reason we've been doing this work is to find different
approaches to a looming problem for us anyway. I mean,
because we're getting a lot of weeds that have got
resistance to glyphosate, we have to do something about that
knock down space.
S1 (16:32):
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(16:55):
Head to action steel. Com.au to learn more about the designs,
sizes and prices. Okay, so moving on to summer weed
control in general, I think, Chris, we have seen particularly
in this area, probably over towards Adelaide as well, that
summer weed control has just played such a big role
(17:17):
this year in whether a crop does any good or
whether it's really struggling. You can really see the paddocks
that have either been on fallow, of course, or have
had that good summer knock compared to those that might
have missed it. What would your advice be to farmers
that are there already, probably in harvest, or doing hay,
(17:38):
or about to start harvest to control their summer weeds? away.
Keeping in mind they are in harvest, they are really
busy and then they want to go on holidays.
S2 (17:47):
Yeah, it's probably one of our, our biggest issues is
getting some weed control. Exactly right. What we do know
is we really are now fully understanding the value of
moisture saving over the summer period for the next year's crop.
One of the parts of planning is, I think, to
(18:09):
understand which of your packets are you going to put
into crop next year? Which ones are you sure you
really want to have a crop? In which ones are
you going to rotate into pasture? Because that might change
your decision about how you approach some of weeds in
those paddocks. I think it's fairly straightforward to say these
(18:30):
are the paddocks I'm going to put into crop next year.
They're the ones where I need to retain as much
moisture as possible. That's fallen over that summer period, and
they're the ones to focus on summer wheat control going
into pasture. You can take a much less focused approach
to summer weed control in those paddocks, and you might
(18:51):
really think about only controlling some specific weeds, like heliotrope
if they come up in those paddocks. So when we're
thinking about summer weed control, a number of the weeds
that challenge us over summer have actually already germinated. They
were germinating back late August early September and they'll be
(19:14):
in under the crop canopy. So weeds like fleabane, for example,
and we will find them, will most likely be in
the crops we have that have got much less crop competition.
So pulses and where cereals have been uncompetitive for whatever reason.
So they've been late sown, for example, or you've sown
(19:38):
them on really wide rows Eyes or whatever's caused them
to be uncompetitive. So they're going to be the paddocks
where the main planning is going to have to be done.
So things that farmers can do is that prior to harvest,
they can actually go out and check crops and see,
do I have some weeds already growing there? It's fleabane
(19:59):
already germinated. Uh, in which case, I know I've got
to deal with that paddock as a priority after harvest.
If the paddocks are relatively clean, then you are going
to have a much lower weed burden. It's going to
have much less impact on how much moisture it takes.
And you can afford to have that as a sort
of a second or third priority paddock that you're going
(20:20):
to deal with. The I think the biggest issue with
the problems that we're having around these spring germinating weeds
is that the earlier we get on to controlling those weeds,
the smaller they are and the easier they are to
control going. I've got to get harvest off. I've spent
long days harvesting and I want to go on holidays
(20:42):
for four weeks down the beach, and I'm not going
to think about anything until I get back, just allows
those weeds to get larger and larger and become more
and more difficult to control. If there's the ability to
in between harvest and heading to the beach to get
those high priority paddocks some weed control on them and
(21:04):
reduce the weed burden, they're going to be much easier
to manage further into the summer fallow period. So part
of it's, I think, about sorting paddocks into which ones
absolutely need some weed control, which ones don't have too
much in them so they can afford to wait a
little bit. And if I do have to control them,
(21:26):
it might be a little bit more difficult because they
don't have too many weeds. It's not a problem. Ones
I can put the sheep in to eat the weeds
for a while because they're going to go into pasture,
and therefore that summer moisture retention is not going to
be quite as valuable. What we also get as we
saw last year is we can get those really big
summer rainfall events and those really big summer rainfall events
(21:48):
will do a couple of things. One, if you've got
existing weeds in the paddock, they will really allow those
weeds to push on. They're already deep rooted. They're just
going to grow into massive, great monsters, but it'll germinate
a whole bunch of new weeds. So if you're weed
free and you get a rainfall event and it just
(22:09):
wets up the surface and dries out again, all those
surface germinating weeds won't come up. What might happen is
you might get things like melons and so on. That
can be a bit troublesome. They might come up, but
you probably end up with a lot lower weed problem
than if you get a large rainfall event where the
soil remains wet for three, four, five days because that'll
(22:32):
germinate those summer weeds as well. Are those some sort
of spring germinating summer weeds? So. Things like fleabane. Often
in the South, we don't see a lot of fleabane
germinate over summer because we just tend to have these
thunderstorms that drop ten 15mm of rain, and then we'll
(22:52):
have a couple of 30 degree days, and they dry
the surface out where we will see them germinate in
those circumstances, often in the crop row where there's a
bit of shading and the surface doesn't dry out as fast.
So I think there are places to actually go and
look after these summer rainfall events to work out what's
really happening. So, you know, driving around the paddock and going,
(23:13):
I don't see anything, stop, move some of the straw
away and just see that you don't have anything germinating
where that moisture has been accumulating.
S1 (23:23):
You know, we get a rain after harvest or in harvest.
And I often think, oh, that's going to summer weeds.
But you're saying it actually raining for one day and
then we get another five hot days. It's probably not
as big a deal. That's what you're saying? Yeah.
S2 (23:38):
So if we get a sustained period of rainfall in summer.
So if you get rain every afternoon for 3 or
4 days, that'll be enough to keep the soil moist.
And you might get a large crop of summer weeds
occurring all over the paddock. Otherwise, these weeds, like these
surface germinating weeds like fleabane, are really going to turn
up where water is collecting. And that's why, you know,
(24:01):
in the summertime we see a lot of this happening
on roadsides. That's because water runs off the roads and
collects on the roadside edge. We've got vegetation and other
material on there, which helps shade the surface so it
doesn't dry out as fast. So we're looking at those
places where the soil doesn't dry out quickly. But I
think the big issue we often have is that we'll
after harvest, we'll end up with those big weeds that
(24:22):
require a lot of attention. Dealing with those later ones
is often a not every year problem, because you don't
always get a big rainfall event over summer. You might
get a few millimeters here and a few millimeters somewhere else,
and it's really not adding up to a whole lot.
So you're often trying to protect that first rainfall event
(24:43):
you got in time for harvest. The planning component of
it is to really make some decisions about which of
your paddocks are a must for early summer weed control
to reduce the weed burden so they're easier to manage
as the season goes on and you have less losses.
Which ones can you get away with? Being not so
(25:06):
rigorous around some of weed control on that gives you
a bit of flexibility.
S1 (25:10):
I like what you're saying there. You're really breaking it
down because it's all very easy to say. But I
like that you've actually thought about this in terms of
being a farmer because yeah, it's easy to say, oh yeah,
once you've finished harvest, I know you want to go
on holidays, but, you know, just to get your weeds.
But people are exhausted. They're so tired and they need
(25:33):
a holiday. So I really like what you're saying about
break down your paddocks, prioritize the ones that are really important,
perhaps put some sheep on some other ones, and hopefully
you've got someone to look after your sheep while you
go on holidays. That's the next problem. But we won't
go into that. Um, and then would you also suggest
getting a contractor in? Because I'm just thinking, again, all
(25:56):
very easy to say, and I know contractors cost money,
but it's just so important that farmers get to have
a break. It might not be four weeks, it might
be one week. But if they feel like they're tied
to the farm and they have to get these summer weeds,
which are obviously really important and they need to be killed,
and it's going to be cheaper, isn't it? If they
get them when they're smaller as well.
S2 (26:17):
It will be cheaper to get them when they're smaller.
And I think the idea about getting a contractor in
is a good one. If you're a farmer and you're
feeling under pressure about, you know, time pressure about getting
everything done. Yeah, absolutely. Part of the issue that I
think farmers have around some of the things that we're
doing is that their farms have got too big for
the amount of equipment they have, and this creates some
(26:40):
real challenges about how to get things done in a
timely fashion. We see that every year, where we have
a lot of summer rain, is that farmers struggle to
get across their paddocks to do all their summer weed control.
So I think it's understanding what your own limitations are
and just thinking about all the practicalities around this and
(27:00):
how to do a good job may really make sense
that you've got a few paddocks that a contractor needs
to do, just to make sure that the whole of
the farm you need to get done gets done in
a timely fashion. That's probably what you should be thinking
about doing.
S1 (27:15):
Some away, some aloft balance, I think. So do you
have any calculations on how much money farmers are losing
by letting those summer weeds grow?
S2 (27:25):
I think that's probably the most difficult question you can
ask is, because a lot of it depends on how
much moisture you're going to save in the soil. So
how much moisture loss is going to happen? And we
would the old if you think about it, the old
French Schultz model that said you got 20 kilos of
grain for every millimeter of rainfall. Well, we've now shifted that.
And part of the reason we've shifted that is one
(27:47):
we don't get as much evaporation as we used to have.
But secondly, we're using stored moisture. And that stored moisture
can be worth depending on how much is there can
be worth, you know, up to a ton of grain.
That's the bit. Is that how much do you have
to protect is how much you've got to lose where
we get those big seasons like some guys had last year,
(28:10):
there's some farmers in the Valley who've virtually grown their
crop on on stored moisture this year. If you'd lost
all that because you didn't get your summer weed control done,
then you've lost a significant amount of this year's revenue.
We know in the big picture the average is you
get $35 back for every dollar you spend on summer
(28:30):
wheat control. Um, but that varies widely from almost nothing
to hundreds of dollars.
S1 (28:37):
So if you can put that cost in at the
start of the year, it might save your whole season.
We've spoken about first going out and monitoring your paddock.
So if you've perhaps even before harvest, seeing what's there
after harvest, making sure you're moving the stubble around, getting
out of the ute and actually seeing what's underneath. Talking
about with those summer rainfall events to get out and
(29:00):
check after those rainfall events, knowing that if you just
get one rain and then five hot days, it might
actually not do anything. Whereas if something's being sheltered or
you really need to get in and see if the
ground is still damp to see whether something's germinating. So
prioritizing those paddocks, perhaps putting some sheep on, maybe getting
a contractor in, and then also you're talking about with
(29:23):
the apvma and the diquat and the paraquat to just
wait and see, obviously what happens. But knowing that you,
you and your science buddies and people at BCG were
working on strategies to to help farmers because we know
that these things are just going to pop up all
the time. And as you say, we have to look
at these strategies anyway because we're seeing resistance. Was there
(29:47):
anything else that I capture that okay. No, I think.
S2 (29:50):
You've you've caught everything that I've talked about so far. Yes.
S1 (29:53):
Good. Was there anything else if you had a key message, Chris,
for farmers this harvest and post-harvest, what would it be?
S2 (30:03):
I think the key message I would have would be
to have a plan, develop a plan for what you're
going to do, and within that have an idea about
some contingencies. So your plan at the moment might be
that I've got these paddocks where I'm going to make
sure I'm going to get complete summer weed control. I've
(30:23):
got these other paddocks which I'm going to have sheep on,
so it doesn't really matter. And then if it rains, Rides.
What will I do? Will I change any of my
decisions and understand how you might change your decisions before
that event happens? That if it does happen, you can
step into those new decisions. Prioritise how you're going to plan.
(30:45):
Because those paddocks that had more competitive crops in this
year are probably going to need less attention than those
ones that had less competitive crops.
S1 (30:55):
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S3 (31:05):
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(31:26):
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S2 (00:06):
I'm talking dry showing because we've got a whole range
of new pre-emergent herbicides, mostly from other groups. So group
13 and so on, and group 15, which have completely
different properties to what we had 20 years ago. We've
actually now got an opportunity where we can use that
set of chemistry to deal with our weed, our ryegrass issues,
(00:30):
and add to that our crop competition from getting our
crop in early in the season. So it's just thinking,
I think about the whole system and saying instead of
trying to make knock down herbicides work all the time,
what if we replaced knock down herbicides with something that's different?
S1 (00:48):
Hello and welcome back to Shared Solutions by BCG. I'm
Janine Batters and in this episode we're very lucky to
be speaking with Professor Chris Preston about some away control
and some of the things that we need to be
thinking about in the lead up to summer and really
getting a good kill on these weeds. Welcome, Chris.
S2 (01:08):
Thanks for having me.
S1 (01:09):
Super excited to have you on our podcast, Chris. So
for a start, I think probably everybody that's listening to
this podcast is going to know who you are. So
I'm not going to ask you to introduce yourself. What
I thought might be interesting is if you could tell us,
how did you get into all of this? What made
(01:29):
you decide that you wanted to be one of the
leading experts in weeds?
S2 (01:34):
The short version of it is that I've got a
training in plant biochemistry, I've got a chemistry degree, and
I was working in the US a number, well, three
decades ago now, working on biofuels. And eventually one day
I decided that nobody really cared about biofuels that much.
And I want to do something that people cared about.
So I look for other things to do. And I
(01:54):
kind of fell into agriculture by accident. But one of
the things that I discovered when I started working on
herbicide resistant weeds, which back then was more of an
academic pursuit than what it is now, was that actually
farmers were really interested in finding out ways to farm better,
and they were really interested in the sort of research
that I was doing that seemed to be perhaps going
(02:18):
to give them some insights on how to do that.
One of the things about working on weeds is that
things change all the time. Well, there's going to be
trying to think creatively about how are we going to
tackle these new problems that are coming. And there's already
some well and truly on the horizon, I'm sure we're
going to talk about on this podcast, but the whole
Apvma paraquat review is getting me to rethink, look, what
(02:41):
are we going to do, particularly around the double Knock?
S1 (02:44):
Can you give me your thoughts on the Apvma review
on paraquat and Diquat, and how you think that will
affect farmers?
S2 (02:52):
Well, I think farmers are actually quite a lot worried
about the outcome of the review. And they're looking at it.
Perhaps they're going to completely lose these products. The current
proposal from the Apvma suggests that we're going to lose
a lot of users of these products, and we will
have reduced rates for most of the users that are left. Now,
(03:16):
this is going to be challenging for farmers. However, what
the current proposal is mightn't be what we end up
getting handed. So industry has made quite a number of
submissions to the Apvma about various aspects of their review,
and so we might get a few more use patterns back.
(03:36):
We might get some higher rates, but I'm moderately convinced
that we won't go back to the rates that we have,
and we won't go back to all the use patterns
we have. I'm looking forward and going, okay, if we're
going to have reduced rates and reduced use patterns, what
can we do that's going to fill the spaces that
(04:00):
the review is going to lead us in? Some of
our challenging situations. And so one of those is the
double knock. We've used the double knock very widely to
help us manage glyphosate resistant weeds. And if we don't
have the right to paraquat we've been using, are there
other things that we can do? For example, with the
(04:21):
reduced rate of paraquat we've got or adding other practices
to that. So that might be other herbicides or maybe
other things that we can do that will help us
get over that problem. I'm finding the thinking and the
challenge about the double knock in summer as being harder,
because there's really fewer options available for us in that space.
(04:44):
But nonetheless, I think that we will look at some
of those and look to see what the opportunities are.
There is a level of urgency about this because the
decision will be made probably sometime next year, and then
labels will change after that. But it's not something that
we have to get done for this coming season. We'll
(05:05):
still be able to use paraquat as the current labels
for the time being.
S1 (05:10):
What are some of the recommendations that you think you
might be putting forward? If the Apvma do make this change.
S2 (05:19):
In the double NOx based, um, sort of things that
I've been thinking about is that I've done a couple
of years of research where we've been looking essentially at
cropping without glyphosate because of, at that time, the potential
risk that some of our key markets might ban glyphosate.
But I think that whole thinking can be also repurposed
(05:43):
cropping without paraquat. So what we are essentially looking at
there is how can we make glufosinate work in that space,
and what is the sort of set of practices we
might have to get something that'll be effective enough for
that knockdown space. So we were looking at Glufosinate plus
(06:04):
group 14 herbicide. So these are your spike herbicides things
like sharpen and so on. And we were looking at
dry seeding as potential options in that space. So instead
of having a glufosinate mixture followed up by paraquat we
might have to have a double knock. That's glufosinate mixture
followed up by glyphosate. The opportunities for products like Amatol
(06:27):
in that space. So there's a herbicide called gorilla, which
is a mix of paraquat plus amatol that might have
an opportunity in some of that space. But I think
it's a thing that we have to explore. We have
to explore what are the things that we can do.
And then when we work out which ones seem to
be effective, then we should look at how is that
(06:48):
actually going to work for a farmer.
S1 (06:50):
So what was the one that you said? Was it.
S2 (06:54):
Glufosinate. So this is sold as Liberty for use in canola.
But it does have a pre crop registration as in
the product before.
S1 (07:05):
What group is that.
S2 (07:06):
Each group.
S1 (07:07):
Ten okay. And you don't.
S2 (07:09):
Use very much of it. It's a lot cheaper than
it used to be. But when we're talking about comparisons
to glyphosate most of our herbicides are expensive. So, um,
this will be more expensive than what we're currently doing.
Probably not. Massively so.
S1 (07:27):
Okay, that's good news. And it's good news that you're
already thinking about this. Is there any other alternatives that
you've been looking into other than chemicals?
S2 (07:36):
Our other alternatives at that time are fairly limited. So,
you know, for example, we used to use tillage to
control weeds at that period. But one of the things
that tillage did was it damaged our soils. It removed
the crop residue we had on the testing the soils,
it delayed sowing from most perspectives. Tillage is not an
(07:59):
attractive option. The sort of new bits of chemistry that
are out there, or new bits of non chemistry, I
should say, that are out there that you might be
hearing about things like we've heard about microwaves, for example,
and lasers and electrocution of weeds. Most of those, I
think are going to be too slow for that particular purpose.
Where we have tried to change things up is to
(08:22):
really have a bit of a focus on can we
get all this done with dry sowing? And so we're
not actually using knock down herbicides, and we're going to
use instead a combination of our pre-emergent herbicides plus crop competition.
So really that focused more around dry sowing in particular
with wheat compared to say some of the other crops.
(08:42):
Looking at how do we take advantage of that competitive
ability we get from sowing wheat early and using the
right set of pre-emergent herbicides to actually fill that space
and take the pressure off those knockdown herbicides that we've had.
So this is it's still using chemistry, but it's using
(09:03):
chemistry and other practices. So it's not a direct we're
going to replace paraquat with this herbicide. We're actually going
to replace paraquat with the system.
S1 (09:13):
And that system is dry sowing.
S2 (09:16):
Dry sowing. And you won't be able to dry. So
every year of course. But this would be an opportunistic approach.
I'm talking dry sowing because we've got a whole range
of new pre-emergent herbicides, mostly from other groups. So group
13 and so on, and group 15, which have completely
different properties to what we had 20 years ago. So
(09:37):
20 years ago when we were reliant on trifluralin as
our pre-emergent herbicide. Yeah, dry sowing was a thing that
people only did when they really had no other choice.
With the range of products we have available now, and
particularly with our ability to have some use some of
these herbicides as an early post-emergent herbicide in crop. So
(09:59):
things like box gold, uh, sulfur, carp, mattino complete, for example.
We've actually now got an opportunity where we can use
that set of chemistry to deal with our weed, our
ryegrass issues. And add to that our crop competition from
getting our crop in early in the season. So it's
(10:20):
just thinking, I think about the whole system and saying
instead of trying to make knockdown herbicides work all the time,
what if we replaced knock down herbicides with something that's different?
S1 (10:32):
I'm quite a hands on kind of learner. Chris, can
you talk me through this approach? So I want to.
So barley in a paddock next year. Talk me through
the system.
S2 (10:46):
The sort of options that you might have in barley
might be that you would show it dry, and you
might use Trifluralin or even Trifluralin plus Avonex as your
pre-emergent herbicide in a dry seeding system. And then you might,
if ryegrass comes through, that you might come back in
crop with some box of gold, for example, or some Pacifica,
(11:07):
or even if you need it a little bit extra
weed control. You could use matino complete in that circumstance.
So this is about thinking about how do you take
advantage of the competition that barley is going to give you.
So you only have to have weed control for a
few weeks. If you've sown barley at early in the season,
(11:29):
it's going to end up covering the ground and getting
canopy closure quite quickly because the soil's warm.
S1 (11:35):
Okay, so where does glycine okay.
S2 (11:38):
Glufosinate comes into this. So if you want to use
a more traditional knockdown approach, either you've had rain in
early to mid-April where it's kind of still too early
to sew and you need to get rid of the
vegetation that's currently there. So that's where you would go.
All right. We're going to need to control some weeds there.
(11:59):
We probably don't have enough paraquat for our traditional double
knock to work. What are our other alternatives? The problem
of using glufosinate in that space is it's got a plant.
Back to sowing your crop of two weeks on the label.
So if you're going to double knock, you have to
put glufosinate in your first knock so you can come
back with glyphosate in your second knock. And instead of
(12:21):
the traditional double knock we've had where you would use
glyphosate and you could come back the next day with paraquat,
we're going to have to require a longer space between
the two herbicides, because our glufosinate tends to be a
a bleacher. It burns the leaves off plants. And if
you've got glyphosate sitting on the outside and you burn
(12:41):
the leaf off, you're not going to get as much
glyphosate taken up. So you need to wait that little
bit of extra time until any surviving weeds start to regrow.
And then you hit them with the glyphosate component. And
I think the in thinking about it that way, the
kind of unknown question there is that if you're going
to put a group 14 herbicide in to help this,
(13:02):
which part of that would you put it in? The
work we did with Glufosinate suggested that probably Virachkul was
the best Group 14 herbicide to mix with it. That
also has a plant back for most crops on the label.
And so in that case, you'd probably think of putting
the virachkul in with that first knock. So probably in
with the glyphosate component. Now there are other things that
(13:25):
we could do because we still will have paraquat at
a lower rate. So for example, we could decide that
instead of putting glyphosate in as that second knock, we
could put paraquat plus our group 14 in that second knock.
And in which case we'd probably want to use maybe
something like Terrador where we don't have that plant back problem.
(13:46):
So there's lots of options. It's a case of what's
going to work. Depending upon the weed spectrum you have
and what you're trying to do.
S1 (13:54):
So you're really talking my language, Chris, when you go
into the details of it, was there any more advice
that you would have in the meantime?
S2 (14:03):
I think the Glufosinate work is going to be a
couple of years till we've got a really good idea
of what the best approaches are. So at the moment
we've done a bit of work around without glyphosate, but
we now need to do the same thing with our
paraquat essentially. I think we'll have an idea by the
time farmers are probably going to have to really focus on,
(14:24):
I can't use the traditional double knock, what am I
going to do? We'll probably have some better idea about that.
But I think the idea of dry seeding, particularly wheat, but,
you know, you can dry so some of your other
crops with advantage. It's something farmers can probably do. Now
if we get a dry start to a season, hopefully
(14:45):
they've learnt a bit about what are the bits of
chemistry that really suit dry sewing compared to the ones
that don't? And certainly I've talked a fair bit over
the years about which ones we should be focusing on.
Things like peroxide Sulfone Trifluralin really suit dry sewing. So
if you know you've got a big problem and you're
going to go dry sewing, you probably need something in
(15:06):
crop as well as that pre-emergent herbicide. So I think
this is a practice that farmers can go, yeah, we
can take on this now if we get a dry
start next year and then we don't have to worry
about what rate of paraquat we're using because we're not
using it.
S1 (15:20):
Okay. But if the apvma rule in the next couple
of months is that likely.
S2 (15:26):
I think it's unlikely that we would have label change
by the time of sowing next year. That's my current feeling,
because the Apvma has got to review all the material
that's been sent to it. If it reviews all the
material that's been sent to it and works out really quickly.
(15:47):
It doesn't change our decision. Then maybe we might see
some changes more quickly, but I'm suspecting that what will
happen is that they'll look at it and they'll go,
oh yeah, we didn't actually consider that piece of information.
We might have to go back and revisit our decision,
and if that's the case, then that'll take extra time.
(16:08):
So it's one of those kind of hard ones to
predict when we're going to see it. I mean, the
reason we've been doing this work is to find different
approaches to a looming problem for us anyway. I mean,
because we're getting a lot of weeds that have got
resistance to glyphosate, we have to do something about that
knock down space.
S1 (16:32):
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(16:55):
Head to action steel. Com.au to learn more about the designs,
sizes and prices. Okay, so moving on to summer weed
control in general, I think, Chris, we have seen particularly
in this area, probably over towards Adelaide as well, that
summer weed control has just played such a big role
(17:17):
this year in whether a crop does any good or
whether it's really struggling. You can really see the paddocks
that have either been on fallow, of course, or have
had that good summer knock compared to those that might
have missed it. What would your advice be to farmers
that are there already, probably in harvest, or doing hay,
(17:38):
or about to start harvest to control their summer weeds? away.
Keeping in mind they are in harvest, they are really
busy and then they want to go on holidays.
S2 (17:47):
Yeah, it's probably one of our, our biggest issues is
getting some weed control. Exactly right. What we do know
is we really are now fully understanding the value of
moisture saving over the summer period for the next year's crop.
One of the parts of planning is, I think, to
(18:09):
understand which of your packets are you going to put
into crop next year? Which ones are you sure you
really want to have a crop? In which ones are
you going to rotate into pasture? Because that might change
your decision about how you approach some of weeds in
those paddocks. I think it's fairly straightforward to say these
(18:30):
are the paddocks I'm going to put into crop next year.
They're the ones where I need to retain as much
moisture as possible. That's fallen over that summer period, and
they're the ones to focus on summer wheat control going
into pasture. You can take a much less focused approach
to summer weed control in those paddocks, and you might
(18:51):
really think about only controlling some specific weeds, like heliotrope
if they come up in those paddocks. So when we're
thinking about summer weed control, a number of the weeds
that challenge us over summer have actually already germinated. They
were germinating back late August early September and they'll be
(19:14):
in under the crop canopy. So weeds like fleabane, for example,
and we will find them, will most likely be in
the crops we have that have got much less crop competition.
So pulses and where cereals have been uncompetitive for whatever reason.
So they've been late sown, for example, or you've sown
(19:38):
them on really wide rows Eyes or whatever's caused them
to be uncompetitive. So they're going to be the paddocks
where the main planning is going to have to be done.
So things that farmers can do is that prior to harvest,
they can actually go out and check crops and see,
do I have some weeds already growing there? It's fleabane
(19:59):
already germinated. Uh, in which case, I know I've got
to deal with that paddock as a priority after harvest.
If the paddocks are relatively clean, then you are going
to have a much lower weed burden. It's going to
have much less impact on how much moisture it takes.
And you can afford to have that as a sort
of a second or third priority paddock that you're going
(20:20):
to deal with. The I think the biggest issue with
the problems that we're having around these spring germinating weeds
is that the earlier we get on to controlling those weeds,
the smaller they are and the easier they are to
control going. I've got to get harvest off. I've spent
long days harvesting and I want to go on holidays
(20:42):
for four weeks down the beach, and I'm not going
to think about anything until I get back, just allows
those weeds to get larger and larger and become more
and more difficult to control. If there's the ability to
in between harvest and heading to the beach to get
those high priority paddocks some weed control on them and
(21:04):
reduce the weed burden, they're going to be much easier
to manage further into the summer fallow period. So part
of it's, I think, about sorting paddocks into which ones
absolutely need some weed control, which ones don't have too
much in them so they can afford to wait a
little bit. And if I do have to control them,
(21:26):
it might be a little bit more difficult because they
don't have too many weeds. It's not a problem. Ones
I can put the sheep in to eat the weeds
for a while because they're going to go into pasture,
and therefore that summer moisture retention is not going to
be quite as valuable. What we also get as we
saw last year is we can get those really big
summer rainfall events and those really big summer rainfall events
(21:48):
will do a couple of things. One, if you've got
existing weeds in the paddock, they will really allow those
weeds to push on. They're already deep rooted. They're just
going to grow into massive, great monsters, but it'll germinate
a whole bunch of new weeds. So if you're weed
free and you get a rainfall event and it just
(22:09):
wets up the surface and dries out again, all those
surface germinating weeds won't come up. What might happen is
you might get things like melons and so on. That
can be a bit troublesome. They might come up, but
you probably end up with a lot lower weed problem
than if you get a large rainfall event where the
soil remains wet for three, four, five days because that'll
(22:32):
germinate those summer weeds as well. Are those some sort
of spring germinating summer weeds? So. Things like fleabane. Often
in the South, we don't see a lot of fleabane
germinate over summer because we just tend to have these
thunderstorms that drop ten 15mm of rain, and then we'll
(22:52):
have a couple of 30 degree days, and they dry
the surface out where we will see them germinate in
those circumstances, often in the crop row where there's a
bit of shading and the surface doesn't dry out as fast.
So I think there are places to actually go and
look after these summer rainfall events to work out what's
really happening. So, you know, driving around the paddock and going,
(23:13):
I don't see anything, stop, move some of the straw
away and just see that you don't have anything germinating
where that moisture has been accumulating.
S1 (23:23):
You know, we get a rain after harvest or in harvest.
And I often think, oh, that's going to summer weeds.
But you're saying it actually raining for one day and
then we get another five hot days. It's probably not
as big a deal. That's what you're saying? Yeah.
S2 (23:38):
So if we get a sustained period of rainfall in summer.
So if you get rain every afternoon for 3 or
4 days, that'll be enough to keep the soil moist.
And you might get a large crop of summer weeds
occurring all over the paddock. Otherwise, these weeds, like these
surface germinating weeds like fleabane, are really going to turn
up where water is collecting. And that's why, you know,
(24:01):
in the summertime we see a lot of this happening
on roadsides. That's because water runs off the roads and
collects on the roadside edge. We've got vegetation and other
material on there, which helps shade the surface so it
doesn't dry out as fast. So we're looking at those
places where the soil doesn't dry out quickly. But I
think the big issue we often have is that we'll
after harvest, we'll end up with those big weeds that
(24:22):
require a lot of attention. Dealing with those later ones
is often a not every year problem, because you don't
always get a big rainfall event over summer. You might
get a few millimeters here and a few millimeters somewhere else,
and it's really not adding up to a whole lot.
So you're often trying to protect that first rainfall event
(24:43):
you got in time for harvest. The planning component of
it is to really make some decisions about which of
your paddocks are a must for early summer weed control
to reduce the weed burden so they're easier to manage
as the season goes on and you have less losses.
Which ones can you get away with? Being not so
(25:06):
rigorous around some of weed control on that gives you
a bit of flexibility.
S1 (25:10):
I like what you're saying there. You're really breaking it
down because it's all very easy to say. But I
like that you've actually thought about this in terms of
being a farmer because yeah, it's easy to say, oh yeah,
once you've finished harvest, I know you want to go
on holidays, but, you know, just to get your weeds.
But people are exhausted. They're so tired and they need
(25:33):
a holiday. So I really like what you're saying about
break down your paddocks, prioritize the ones that are really important,
perhaps put some sheep on some other ones, and hopefully
you've got someone to look after your sheep while you
go on holidays. That's the next problem. But we won't
go into that. Um, and then would you also suggest
getting a contractor in? Because I'm just thinking, again, all
(25:56):
very easy to say, and I know contractors cost money,
but it's just so important that farmers get to have
a break. It might not be four weeks, it might
be one week. But if they feel like they're tied
to the farm and they have to get these summer weeds,
which are obviously really important and they need to be killed,
and it's going to be cheaper, isn't it? If they
get them when they're smaller as well.
S2 (26:17):
It will be cheaper to get them when they're smaller.
And I think the idea about getting a contractor in
is a good one. If you're a farmer and you're
feeling under pressure about, you know, time pressure about getting
everything done. Yeah, absolutely. Part of the issue that I
think farmers have around some of the things that we're
doing is that their farms have got too big for
the amount of equipment they have, and this creates some
(26:40):
real challenges about how to get things done in a
timely fashion. We see that every year, where we have
a lot of summer rain, is that farmers struggle to
get across their paddocks to do all their summer weed control.
So I think it's understanding what your own limitations are
and just thinking about all the practicalities around this and
(27:00):
how to do a good job may really make sense
that you've got a few paddocks that a contractor needs
to do, just to make sure that the whole of
the farm you need to get done gets done in
a timely fashion. That's probably what you should be thinking
about doing.
S1 (27:15):
Some away, some aloft balance, I think. So do you
have any calculations on how much money farmers are losing
by letting those summer weeds grow?
S2 (27:25):
I think that's probably the most difficult question you can
ask is, because a lot of it depends on how
much moisture you're going to save in the soil. So
how much moisture loss is going to happen? And we
would the old if you think about it, the old
French Schultz model that said you got 20 kilos of
grain for every millimeter of rainfall. Well, we've now shifted that.
And part of the reason we've shifted that is one
(27:47):
we don't get as much evaporation as we used to have.
But secondly, we're using stored moisture. And that stored moisture
can be worth depending on how much is there can
be worth, you know, up to a ton of grain.
That's the bit. Is that how much do you have
to protect is how much you've got to lose where
we get those big seasons like some guys had last year,
(28:10):
there's some farmers in the Valley who've virtually grown their
crop on on stored moisture this year. If you'd lost
all that because you didn't get your summer weed control done,
then you've lost a significant amount of this year's revenue.
We know in the big picture the average is you
get $35 back for every dollar you spend on summer
(28:30):
wheat control. Um, but that varies widely from almost nothing
to hundreds of dollars.
S1 (28:37):
So if you can put that cost in at the
start of the year, it might save your whole season.
We've spoken about first going out and monitoring your paddock.
So if you've perhaps even before harvest, seeing what's there
after harvest, making sure you're moving the stubble around, getting
out of the ute and actually seeing what's underneath. Talking
about with those summer rainfall events to get out and
(29:00):
check after those rainfall events, knowing that if you just
get one rain and then five hot days, it might
actually not do anything. Whereas if something's being sheltered or
you really need to get in and see if the
ground is still damp to see whether something's germinating. So
prioritizing those paddocks, perhaps putting some sheep on, maybe getting
a contractor in, and then also you're talking about with
(29:23):
the apvma and the diquat and the paraquat to just
wait and see, obviously what happens. But knowing that you,
you and your science buddies and people at BCG were
working on strategies to to help farmers because we know
that these things are just going to pop up all
the time. And as you say, we have to look
at these strategies anyway because we're seeing resistance. Was there
(29:47):
anything else that I capture that okay. No, I think.
S2 (29:50):
You've you've caught everything that I've talked about so far. Yes.
S1 (29:53):
Good. Was there anything else if you had a key message, Chris,
for farmers this harvest and post-harvest, what would it be?
S2 (30:03):
I think the key message I would have would be
to have a plan, develop a plan for what you're
going to do, and within that have an idea about
some contingencies. So your plan at the moment might be
that I've got these paddocks where I'm going to make
sure I'm going to get complete summer weed control. I've
(30:23):
got these other paddocks which I'm going to have sheep on,
so it doesn't really matter. And then if it rains, Rides.
What will I do? Will I change any of my
decisions and understand how you might change your decisions before
that event happens? That if it does happen, you can
step into those new decisions. Prioritise how you're going to plan.
(30:45):
Because those paddocks that had more competitive crops in this
year are probably going to need less attention than those
ones that had less competitive crops.
S1 (30:55):
If you love the podcast and would like to show
your support, please rate us five stars. Wherever you listen
to your podcasts and share it with your friends. We'll
catch you again soon.
S3 (31:05):
BCG drives the prosperity of Australian farmers, communities and landscapes
through applied research, innovation and events. To find out more
about what we're up to, our team and events near you,
visit BCG. Forego. BCG acknowledges the traditional custodians of country
throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community.
(31:26):
We pay our respects to their elders, past and present.
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