October 6, 2024 • 55 mins
Poorly managed conflict is the biggest internal threat to your business’ bottom line.
There is no change without conflict and there is always conflict where there is change.
The right conflict; healthy arguments over differing ideas in an environment of mutual respect; stimulates both personal and business growth.
“The reason why it's [good conflict resolution] so critical is because everything that we do in every group has human interaction at its core. The quality of our lives is determined by the quality of our relationships. Overwhelmingly. It's a basic human need. Being part of a supportive, caring group has a bigger impact on our health, both physical and mental, than anything else.
“More than getting the right exercise, eating the right diet, going to the doctor, taking the right medicine. Being part of a supportive, healthy group is just a basic human need and that's why it's so important to be able to address conflict early and appropriately. It's just determines the quality of our lives.”
In the first episode of our eight-part series Planning for Prosperity Janine Batters talks with Brows Up conflict resolution specialist Neville Brady. The conversation covers the VIP approach, recognising our own part in the problem and waving the white truce flag, the difference between criticism and critique and the importance of improving your business structures, resources, competencies and commitment.
The conversation is a great example of how humour can be used to tackle tricky conversations and the importance of leadership, self awareness and keeping your eyebrows up!
This podcast is sponsored by Action Steel. Visit https://www.actionsteel.com.au/ today
For more information on chemical storage visit: https://www.actionsteel.com.au/downloads/standard-chemical-sheds-brochure-size-price-guide/
About Neville Brady
Neville is a, father, husband and business consultant. He conducts laugh out loud funny mens’ health presentations and has a particularly unique stress management technique that makes people laugh.
He grew up on a farm near Swan Hill with three brothers. His mother had an electric cow prod and no cows. As a teenager he learnt a valuable lesson from his mum when he said “Mum, everyone is giving me the shits!” His Mum said, with a gentle tone, “Oh sweat heart… everyone can’t be wrong.”
He and his team from Browsup consulting who work with SME’s and family businesses – where’s there an extra layer of complexity – improve outcomes by improving business inputs: structures, resources, competencies and commitment.
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To learn more about BCG visit www.bcg.org.au
In the spirit of reconciliation, BCG acknowledges the Traditional Custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea, and communit
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:00):
BCG acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and
their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our
respects to their elders, past and present.
S2 (00:10):
The reason why it's so critical is because everything that
we do in every group has human interaction at its core.
The quality of our lives is determined by the quality
of our relationships, overwhelmingly. It's a basic human need. Being
(00:33):
part of a supportive, caring group has a bigger impact
on our health, both physical and mental, than anything else.
More than getting the right exercise, eating the right diet,
going to the doctor, taking the right medicine. Being part
of a supportive, healthy group is just a basic human need,
(00:55):
and that's why it's so important to be able to
address conflict early and appropriately. It's just determines the quality
of our lives.
S3 (01:05):
Welcome back to Shared Solutions by BCG. I'm Janine Batters.
I'm excited to be bringing you another series sponsored by
Action Steel. Planning for prosperity. It will build on our
first series planning for profit. I'll talk to experts in
their field about a range of areas that you can use,
planning in your business to help your bottom line and
your well-being. Today, we're speaking with brows up consultant Neville Brady,
(01:27):
who works with farming families and businesses to resolve conflict. Welcome, Neville.
S2 (01:31):
Hey. G'day.
S3 (01:32):
So pleased to have you here, Neville. Today I'm really
looking forward to our chat. But as we always do
just to get started, can you give our listeners a
little bit of a background on who you are, what
you do, and why you're interested in conflict resolution?
S2 (01:45):
Yeah. Chose the right parents. Janine grew up in a
family that had shearing contractor mum, a whimsy, witty woman
that dealt with a lot of conflict with humour as
we were growing up. Why in this area? It started
out I the last job I had was sales manager
(02:07):
of a radio station, and that's where I undertook some
training and studies in marketing. National mutual purchased one of
the assignments way back when, in 92, and it just
sort of found my way into this. Started out in consulting,
and it's been a learning process for 35 years. And
(02:29):
the real education has come from working with different businesses.
And for the bits, the clunky bits, the bits that
didn't work. Reflecting on it and a continuous improvement process.
S3 (02:44):
I thought you were going to say, Neville, you got
into a lot of fights.
S2 (02:49):
Well, there are low level different types of fights, isn't there, Janine?
Like so. It's what we construe as fighting conflict, but
I've been trained in counseling, family mediation and importantly, mental
first aid health. We have a slogan that we help
people fix the bits that give them the shits. And
(03:11):
in every group there is, whether it's a family group,
social group, community group, there's always gaps between what's actually
happening and what everyone feels should be happening, which of
course creates conflict.
S3 (03:24):
I think that paints a picture of you, Neville, very
well for our listeners.
S2 (03:29):
And we try to do it with humour, with like
some circumstances, there is no humour in it. However, humour
is a great tension reliever in the right and appropriate
environment and with the right appropriate words.
S3 (03:46):
It can make people relax, can't it? It makes things easier. Okay, good.
So we'll jump in. Neville, why is conflict resolution and
being confident in being able asked to resolve conflict, important
in farming.
S2 (04:01):
And because of the high stakes in family farming, there's
an extra layer of complexity that we witness compared to
workplace businesses without that family connection. Now, in family farms,
one of the things is sometimes we talk to our
family members like we would not dare talk to a
(04:24):
staff member or a work colleague. So in the reason
why it's so critical is because everything that we do
in every group has human interaction at its core. The
quality of our lives is determined by the quality of
our relationships, overwhelmingly. It's a basic human need. Being part
(04:50):
of a supportive, caring group has a bigger impact on
our health, both physical and mental, than anything else. More
than getting the right exercise, eating the right diet, going
to the doctor, taking the right medicine. Being part of
a supportive, healthy group is just a basic human need,
(05:13):
and that's why it's so important to be able to
address conflict early and appropriately. It's just determines the quality
of our lives.
S3 (05:23):
That's a really good point because you don't often think
about it like that, do you? I was interested when
you said, we don't often talk to our family members
in ways that we perhaps wouldn't talk to staff. Do
you think that it's also a case of perhaps we'd
ask family members to do things, perhaps that we wouldn't
ask staff to do, and then that creates conflict as well.
S2 (05:44):
At the core of that is expectations. Sometimes we expect
more from family because they're so involved, like overworking. And
if we're living on the farm, we're living at work
seven days a week. So it's something that there's an
expectation to overwork and over involve.
S3 (06:06):
That's such a critical link. I think that expectation, because
I feel like the difference in expectations is so often
where conflict arises.
S2 (06:15):
Everyone has a has a notion of fairness, and everyone's
expectations varies based on backgrounds, upbringings, cultures. And it's something
that aligning expectations and each one having the same view
of expectations is a great place to start.
S3 (06:37):
Is making sure everyone's on the same page.
S2 (06:40):
Correct, same understanding and just with the language. Sometimes I
remember being on this farm, and I heard the older
brother use some expletives that their would not tolerate in
any workplace. And, um, about a month later, I used
those same expletives with him, and he said, you can't
(07:00):
talk to me like that. And I said, that's a
great point. Can't talk to your other siblings like that either.
So not that I used, you know, fire with fire,
but for him to experience it from someone else's point
of view and as the person receiving and hearing those
words is different to how it's sent. So the expectations
(07:22):
were in this business was agreeing to the way that
we would communicate.
S3 (07:28):
And you were really building empathy there, weren't you, because
you're helping them understand how the other person felt.
S2 (07:33):
Correct. Empathy is at its core, and it's it's that
vicarious experience. And we have a process in conflict resolution.
And we might go into it a bit more through
the podcast and it's VIP.
S3 (07:50):
Let's talk about that.
S2 (07:51):
Neville V if you picture two people standing facing each
other and there's a number on the ground that they're
both arguing over now, the number is six or the
number is nine, depending on where you're standing, depending on
your point of view. So people are arguing this is
a six, Janine. And you're saying, no, it's a nine.
Now the VIP. I'm pausing a bit because I want
(08:16):
to make sure this is really heard. V stands for validate.
It's me repeating not parrot fashion, but just repeating back
to you, Janine, what I heard you say and how
you felt. Now, if I do that accurately one it
(08:39):
validates the other person's position and that can be therapeutic. But, Janine,
it doesn't necessarily mean I'm agreeing with you. I'm just
validating what I'm hearing. And the I is for investigate.
So let's have a look at some situations. What do
you think we should do here. What are the options.
(09:02):
And then P stands for pick one. Pick a solution.
Now in every business we go into one of the
biggest things listed as far as what they'd like. Our
help to fix or improve is communication. What they really,
I think they're really saying is fix the miscommunication, because
(09:28):
every one of us hear things sometimes that aren't said.
We interpret things in a way that's not how it's meant.
So by me repeating back accurately, I don't change what
you're trying to tell me, Janine. I validate so, Janine,
from my understanding, you'd like my input into a conflict
(09:51):
resolution podcast. Yes, we get it right because we all
change things. We change what we hear by leaving out
information and changing information. So if I do that validate accurately,
that avoids the miscommunication. So it's a real process.
S3 (10:10):
Do you feel like that also helps you to pause,
take a step back and hear what they're saying.
S2 (10:18):
It helps us take that moment to really clearly understand. Janine. Yes,
I just did the V part of you then and
you immediately said yes. It is. If I asked for
one of the things that blocks listening is I'm rehearsing
what I'm about to say before you have even finished.
(10:42):
And that's that self-talk. I might be thinking, oh, bloody hell,
she's having a go at me. Oh, geez. As soon
as I have my say, I'm going to straighten this
right up. So I've just missed what you've said. So
it forces me if I'm in that habit of validating it.
I have that self management and impulse control. A lot
(11:05):
of the time to repeat back what I'm hearing you saying,
which is a personal discipline of me to really listen.
The biggest one of the we often ask people when
dealing with others and I'll check random sample of one
with you. When dealing with others kids, family, friends, colleagues,
(11:26):
I get annoyed or frustrated when often people respond, don't listen. Yeah,
very often. And the only way that I can prove
that I've listened to you accurately is for me to
repeat back what I've heard you say. That's the only
way we can prove to someone that we've listened. Not
by saying, I understand how you feel, or yes, I
(11:48):
understand that's the only way kids learn how to listen
by us listening to them without interrupting.
S3 (11:55):
Yes they do.
S2 (11:56):
That's how they learn. And when my kids were growing up,
most of the time, even though I do conflict resolution,
I still suffer from the same thing every other human
does too. But when my kids were growing up, most
of the time, especially in the difficult conversations, I used
to listen to them without interrupting. And then I used
(12:18):
to say, son, what I'm hearing is this and this.
Is that correct? And you go, yes. And then if
I had my say, if they interrupted me, I used
to say, excuse me, did I just pay you the
courtesy of listening to you without interrupting? Yes. Can I
have my turn? Is that fair? And it teaches them
how to listen. That's the process.
S3 (12:39):
Such an important skill, I think. Listening. Can you. I
think with this VIP, I think we need an example.
So we have an example, and then you can talk
through each one, because I find that sometimes these things
are very good on paper, Neville. But when I take
them out and I try and do them, it's not
so easy. So for example, let's think of a conflict issue.
(13:02):
So I'm thinking, okay, what happens if I get a
phone call and there's a guy waiting for the truck
and he's saying, no one's here to load me? And
I say, Bobby was supposed to load you at 8:00,
didn't he? What? Like, that's probably a pretty fair thing
if something's going to happen. And then. So he's upset,
hasn't been loaded. How are you going to deal with
(13:24):
that situation with the VIP? One of the.
S2 (13:27):
First things that we need to manage is our own
emotions when we're in conflict. Now, in that case, I
would be guessing that person would be feeling let down
and maybe annoyed that he's been held up due to
someone making a commitment that wasn't kept. So when you
look at the four basic emotions which are anger, fear,
(13:51):
joy and sadness, the big four, that person would be
feeling what in that situation?
S3 (13:59):
Probably anger. Low level sadness maybe. Yeah.
S2 (14:03):
Disappointment. Mhm. So under anger is frustration annoyed irritated. And
there's a continuum all the way to rage. So he
may be feeling frustrated. So to validate is so you're
frustrated at the moment because you've been held up and
someone's let you down. You just quickly restate it. And
(14:25):
if they go yes we ask can I ask a
couple of questions. And that's when we investigate. Now I've
been in mediations and with one family mediation I said
to one person, you're so angry at the moment, you
just want to fill this whole living room full of
uppercuts And when I validated his anger, he went like this. Yes.
(14:54):
Now that deep intake of breath, we often say to
someone when they're upset to take a deep breath. But
if we say to someone who are feeling angry, those
or anxious, just take a deep breath. Usually they take
a short one and say, don't tell me to calm down.
(15:16):
By validating, we're looking for that intake of deep breath.
S3 (15:20):
You're allowing them to feel their anger, aren't you? You're
giving them permission?
S2 (15:24):
Yeah. Then when people take that intake of breath, it
switches off the body's production of cortisol and adrenaline, the
fight and flight thing that helps us. And we're critical
thinking takes place. And problem solving place in the brain
is now more likely to kick in. So validating the
(15:45):
emotions first and validating what people have said. They feel
heard and it's critical.
S3 (15:52):
Perfect. But what about my truck driver? What are we
going to do, Neville?
S2 (15:55):
So you want me to solve help you solve this problem, Janine? Yes.
So I've just validated again. Yes, I'm good at.
S3 (16:03):
It.
S2 (16:03):
I know you are good at it.
S3 (16:06):
I think you're very good at it.
S2 (16:08):
And I might say so. Janine, what are the options
that you face with as far as solving this?
S3 (16:13):
Well, I need to find out how the message got missed.
I need to find out where the communication didn't happen.
S2 (16:21):
So we need to find out where that problem started
from in the first place.
S3 (16:25):
Yes.
S2 (16:26):
So I just validate again. Yes. So I don't problem
solve so well you're there. You're the one that knows
going on. So you solve your own bloody problem.
S3 (16:38):
I've got time for this. I've got to load another track.
S2 (16:41):
And now we're into the dance, aren't we? to. Sure.
S3 (16:45):
Yeah. So yeah you're just validating again.
S2 (16:47):
Validate investigate problem solve. Now when we when we go
on to farmer in a business, we just listen to
and validate what everyone's saying to us that they want
to fix, improve their frustrations, their concerns, their aspirations not
being met. We just give everyone a really good listening to.
(17:08):
We validate what they've said so they can be sure
that we've got it and it gives them confidence. Then
we just report on the themes. These are the themes
now the reason themes are so important. Many years ago,
I was a rather mature 14 year old and I
(17:31):
said to mum, mum, everyone's giving me the shits. She said,
oh sweetheart, everyone can't be wrong. So the theme was
Neville may be the center of what the problem is.
Everyone can't be wrong. So we pick up on the
themes of what people are saying, which usually represents the
(17:55):
root cause. Here are the themes. So that's the reason
when we go into business, people are far more likely
to listen to me is if I first listen to
them and validated their view. Ah, so you're seeing this
as a noun, is that correct? Yes. Then we can
(18:19):
feel it from their point of view, which is that
empathy response.
S3 (18:23):
People relax a little bit, don't they? They relax. They
feel validated. They stop worrying about whether you understand it.
And they can actually use their thinking brain, as you say,
to then start investigating. What? Yes. So what are we
going to do? So you validated me. Yep. Oh, mate.
Still upset?
S2 (18:39):
Yep. And then the old mate is less upset and
more cognizant, and then we can usually move to solution
focused rather than problem focused, because people are reluctant to
move from being problem focused, whether they feel they're a
(18:59):
victim or something to solution focused without their first view
being validated. Validating is a basic human need to be
heard and understood. You also meet the human need to
feel appreciated.
S3 (19:15):
It's so important, isn't it? I feel like we have
spent a lot of time on the validation because it
almost is the most important, probably.
S2 (19:22):
The best example to family example. And um, I'll tell
it in the third person, like it happened to me,
but one of the client's son got, uh, suspended from school.
So when he went up, the first thing he did
was take responsibility and said, hi, I'm just here. This
(19:42):
is difficult from all of us as a dad, as
a I can only imagine what it's like. Frustrating from
your point, as far as dealing with an extroverted boy
that's over the top. And I'm here to apologize. Now
in conflict, someone has to wave the white flag of truce. Janine,
(20:05):
if there's four family members arguing, there's four reasons for
it and five truths. If you and I have an argument,
there's three truths. There's your truth. My truth. And then
there's the truth. Yeah, truth. And someone's got to take responsibility.
The leader is the one that says, hang on a minute, Janine.
This is my fault. You know, we've been arguing and
(20:28):
I've been doing it the wrong way. And I just
want to let I just want to apologize for what
I've contributed to this. So someone this person took Responsibility
and said, this is my fault. I'm his dad and
I haven't been engaged. I'm not blaming you for not
telling me this is going on. This is my fault.
(20:48):
If I was an engaged dad, I'd know. And the
teacher said told him what the situation was. And this
dad immediately said so. My son's been a class clown
showing you no respect, which is sabotaging the other kids education.
Am I hearing you correctly? And the teacher immediately went, yes.
So all the misdemeanors he didn't have to go through
(21:09):
now and explain to make sure he'd been heard. And
this dad understood. So that's when they moved to that
solution focused bit.
S3 (21:19):
Yep. So is that another step then? Because you first
you said, hey, I've done something wrong and waved the
white flag. But that was before the validation. So I'm
feeling like there might be a step that you haven't mentioned.
S2 (21:33):
Well, there's a little bit as far as understanding this
is something that my mother was saying to me when
I said, everyone's giving me the shits. It's called the
conflict attribution theory. My failures, things that are happening to
me are more to do with external forces. And you know,
there's reasons why I'm not succeeding. But if I point to,
(21:57):
I'll mate. The attribution theory is he's an idiot. That's
why he's or he's lazy or he's incompetent. We tend
to internalize it with others and put it to their character.
But when it happens to us, we can justify it
because our the tractor broke down or something else happened.
(22:18):
We don't actually take responsibility. Now for those who are listening,
only those because no one else is listening to this.
Maybe everything that's happening in my life, I'm contributing to it.
And when in a workshop, I get people to point
to me with their fingers and say, Neville, it's your fault.
And if everyone can imagine them pointing to someone and
(22:41):
saying this is your fault. We then ask them to
count how many fingers on that same hand are pointing
directly back at us. Now, if it's my fault, I
can fix it. If it's everyone else's fault, I can't.
And we often are victims and say there's nothing I
(23:02):
can do about this. Rather than thinking, what am I
doing that's contributing to this? Now, if one person in
a group acknowledges that it gives other people in this mediation,
in this family farm that may have strained relationships, it
gives permission for people to do the same thing.
S3 (23:21):
Makes them human.
S2 (23:23):
Yes. And especially not always, but most of the time. Jeanine,
I see the tribal elder, the dad.
S3 (23:36):
You're choosing your words very carefully there.
S2 (23:38):
I am choosing it very carefully. I don't want this
to sound sexist, but usually there's a alpha male. The
the traditional framing of family farms, like in one family farm.
A 76 year old dad. I did two things with him. One,
(24:01):
I asked him if there was a difference between being
a dad and being a parent. And he struggled a bit.
And he said, why? And I said, you don't have
to parent these 250 year old sons that you have
any longer time to be a dad is being critical, blaming, judgmental,
(24:22):
eyebrows down, coming across as a parent, talking to them
like children even though they're in their 50s. And I
also gave him a pen and I passed him a
pen and I said, now I want you to take
this pen from me. And the harder he pulled, the
harder I hung on to the pen. And I said,
what's the problem? He said, you're not letting go. And
(24:44):
I said, oh, good. That's what I need to talk
to you about.
S3 (24:47):
Oh, how did he tell you that?
S2 (24:50):
And when he came to the meeting, after going through
some counselling, he said, listen, boys, I've got to put
my hand up for something here. I've been treating you
like kids, and I just want to let you know
that's not what my intent was. So he flew. He
just waved that flag of truce, Janine, and took responsibility.
And the relief which comes under joy, anger, fear, joy
(25:14):
and sadness was palpable in with the two sons in
their 50s.
S3 (25:19):
That's a good point. That is such a good point about.
And I have heard that, you know, if you point
the finger, how many are pointing it back at you.
I've heard that. But the way you explained that then,
I think has been the best. And I also strongly
believe in that. You can't Control what other people do.
I say that to my kids a lot. You can't
control what they do. You can only control what you do.
(25:41):
And you're right. You can really take back some of
your power. If you can say I'm part of the problem,
and then. Then you can start thinking about solutions. So
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(26:26):
I feel like we need a first step the little
white flag. And then we've got the validate, which you've
done very well. So now we're going into investigate? Yep.
How do you investigate without. Because I could say. But
I sent him a text message and he said, yeah,
no worries. I told him about that last week. Yep.
(26:46):
So how do how do you investigate without making the
problem bigger?
S2 (26:52):
Okay. Yes. Um. Don't know. While I'm doing this, I'll
just Google the answer. Yeah. I'll just take one step back.
When we've been invited into a business, and we've never
been invited into a business that's been going really well.
It's only the stress and the angst when people call
us in. And I'll explain what the root cause of
(27:16):
that has been. We explain the difference between I'll ask you,
is there a difference between critique and criticism?
S3 (27:23):
I think so.
S2 (27:24):
What do you think the difference is?
S3 (27:27):
I think well, for me, I would say critique is
like positive sandwiching something which I know it's not, but
I would always say something really nice and positive for start.
And then I would say, I really like what you've
done here. Do you think perhaps you could have a
think about this? But overall you've done a really good job,
whereas criticism would be like, I hate, why have you
(27:49):
spelt that that's the wrong there or whatever, because I'm
an English person. Yeah. Fix it. Yeah.
S2 (27:57):
Now one tone of voice in that second one, your
tone of voice came across as a parent. Yes. Critical judging. Harsh.
And in businesses, it's the parent in us all. We
have three ego states. One is a parent, one is
an adult, and one is a child. Now, when my
(28:19):
granddaughter is pushing a pusher with a doll in it,
she's been a parent. Good. She takes the doll out
and tries to sit in the pusher herself. She's now
being a.
S3 (28:30):
Baby or the.
S2 (28:31):
Child When she works out, she can't fit. She's been
a adult. Yes. Yeah. Those three states. Now I can
be a concerned, supportive parent. Is everything okay? Can I
help with anything? Or I can be blaming, judgmental, critical harping,
carping in the adult ego state. It's proportional, it's calm,
(28:54):
it's even. And in a child ego state, I can
throw tantrums. This isn't fair. It's not my fault. Or
I can be curious and fun. Now to get back
to criticism and critique critiquing. When we explain to people
about investigating, we're just critiquing here. We're not criticizing, we're
(29:17):
not blaming. So let's have a choice about what is
are the things that we could do to change in
order for this not to happen again.
S3 (29:25):
So that's how you phrase it then, don't you frame
it that way?
S2 (29:28):
Yes.
S3 (29:29):
So that's the next one. And then I could say, oh, well,
we probably could have scheduled this in a calendar, or
we could have made that phone call and made it
have a follow up message last night, or have a
system and a structure.
S2 (29:40):
Ah, I'm glad you brought up that word structure. The
number one thing that contributes to strained relationships in family businesses,
particularly a loose or informal structures, job roles, responsibilities. Who's
got the authority for this structures is the first place
(30:01):
in a family mediation that we go to. And in
one family business, we just put a corporate structure into
a family business. We had people that were responsible for
certain areas of the farm. We got people to report. Now,
the first item, and if people have got a pen
and a piece of paper, the first item on the
agenda in any farming business structure that comes under structure, processes,
(30:26):
procedures come under structure. Exactly what you did there, Janine. Oh,
next time we should do this. And this. You're focusing
on changing a process or procedure. So structures is number one.
So we set an agenda where we agreed to meet
every month, which is a conflict resolution meeting first on
(30:48):
an agenda work health and safety. Farms are the most
one of the most dangerous, especially for men over 60.
Dangerous workplaces in Australia.
S3 (30:58):
Why? For men over 60.
S2 (30:59):
Falls were not. As we lose some muscle mass, our
ego still says, yes, I can still wrestle that ram
and we tend to take more risks. But with older
fellas now I'm 63. I can't jump off the back
of the ute anymore. Sometimes we try and keep up
with the young fellas.
S3 (31:16):
Yep, yep. Okay, so keep going. Sorry.
S2 (31:18):
So structures work, health and safety. Let's have a five
minute conversation around work health and safety. And make sure
it's documented. Every month a different person brings a reminder
so we share it. Second item on the agenda, which
is a conflict resolution discussion rework. What were the humps
and bumps that didn't go right? I was held up
(31:40):
at the silo with a truck that was reworked. It
was lost time. Now as soon as you put rework
on the agenda, guess what happens to the instances of
rework in that team?
S3 (31:49):
Less.
S2 (31:50):
Correct. Why?
S3 (31:52):
Because they don't want to stand up and say they've
done the wrong thing.
S2 (31:54):
Correct. Exactly. Which feeds into accountability. So we're looking at
structure to improve accountability. And let's have a talk about
what the rework issue is and how we fix it.
Third item on the agenda individual reports. We force people
to talk about what they're doing. And in the reports
(32:16):
are things like what went really well for me. Last
month was my best day was my worst day was because.
So we start talking about those things in an adult
ego state at a meeting where we're all adults and
then objectives for next month. So that's an example of structure.
(32:37):
So the four steps are to resolve conflict better structures.
Next one we look at is resources. Did you have
the information technology equipment all the things you needed to
do a good job. Third item competency. Did you know
what to do and how to do it? Fourth commitment ambition.
(33:01):
So we put this statement up in a business that
says when things go wrong or we don't meet expectations,
we need to review our structures. We didn't have the
right resources to do the job properly. I didn't know
what to do or how to do the job properly
or commitment. I took a shortcut. Now when we put
that up, we give everyone permission to talk about conflict
(33:23):
in an emotionally mature Mindset and space where no one's apparent.
Talking to others like a child. Yes.
S3 (33:34):
Got you. So there was a couple of things that
really piqued my interest when you were speaking, Neville. The
first one was the rework and how you were saying that. Yeah,
nobody wants to be the one that stands up and says, oh,
I marked up. However, you also then went on to
say that each individual report and then they went and said, oh,
this went well for me. This didn't go well for me.
(33:56):
How do you because obviously you want less mistakes, so
you want less rework, but you don't necessarily want to
be creating an environment where people don't want to say, oh,
I mucked up either. And that's where, you know, when
you're talking about the individual reports, how this went well,
this didn't go well. I think that's probably where people
(34:17):
are allowed to be human. They're allowed to make mistakes.
So what's different with can you see where I'm going
with this? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
S2 (34:24):
When it comes from, no one wants to stand up
and say, I made a mistake. That's as ridiculous as
everyone wants to stand up and say they've made mistakes.
We try and create an environment because we're human. We
want to create an environment where people feel supported, to
take responsibility and without fear of retribution, snide remarks, sarcasm,
(34:50):
or being judged or feeling like a child. However, we
are human. Like the other day I backed out and
just backed into a bit of a drum. Now I
should have been paid more attention, right? But we're human.
We are. We're going to have lapses. But that what
we mentioned earlier about the number one thing that impacts
(35:13):
on our health more than anything else is being part
of a supportive, caring group. So we do want an
environment where the leader says, and a client of ours
who was particularly hard to manage. Emotionally immature child, threw
tantrums and called people aholes when after hanging up and
(35:37):
I said to him, I've failed here. I'm taking responsibility,
such and such. Here you can have your money back
because you're still talking like this and not taking responsibility
for the work environment that you've created here. Now, if
you don't acknowledge this to staff, then I'm sacking myself
(35:58):
and taking responsibility just prior to the Christmas party. He
stood up in front of everyone and apologised and said,
this is my fault, like that person did at the school.
S3 (36:09):
Because you led by example, didn't you.
S2 (36:10):
Lead by example? And it made everyone else permission to
put their hand up and say, oh, I didn't do
my best here. Now that what's creates a super performing
team where they feel supported and encouraged, not condemned.
S3 (36:26):
And also one where it's not. We're not trying to
reach perfection because perfection is not really achievable, but it's
just very good.
S2 (36:35):
Actually, very perfect is the enemy of very good, the enemy.
We put in place this continuous improvement process, and we
give people permission to talk about their mishaps. And in
in one place in particular, a trucking company, there was
six departments all headed up by men, very deadline driven,
(36:57):
and you could almost smell the testosterone in the room.
And the and we introduced two things into their reports
that got them more collaborative and more cooperative. Two things.
And those two things were maintenance actions, relationship maintenance actions.
One was what I'm struggling with is now I said,
(37:21):
what I said yes. What I'm struggling with though a
deadline driven. They were resource poor. We all struggle. Life's
a contact sport. And the other thing. So when they
that was in their monthly report, when they said I'm
struggling with this, it triggered off that empathy response and said,
oh look I could help you with that. Or they
knew in their department, if they did their job better,
(37:43):
it would help the others in the other department that
empathy and the other one that they had to report
on was who I'd like to thank for making my
job easier.
S3 (37:53):
That's a good one.
S2 (37:54):
Who I'd like to thank. In a men's health group,
I put up five sums on a whiteboard and I
get one wrong. Just simple sums like five plus five
equals ten. But I get one wrong on purpose. And
I say, what do you notice said? And someone inevitably says,
you can't add up. And I said, oh, you never
said congratulations, you got four, right? That fifth 1st May
need a bit of an adjustment. So having people permission
(38:20):
and supported Especially feeling vulnerable is a really courageous approach.
And if it's done by leaders, sorry guys, I've stuffed
up here and seeing someone maturely in an adult ego state.
Take responsibility gives everyone else permission to do that too.
S3 (38:40):
It makes such sense. And you were talking about resourcing
and the truck drivers with their low resources. And you
said it made a comment earlier before when you were
talking about the structures and then the resourcing. How do
you talk to farmers about resourcing? Because I feel like
that would be an area where a lot of conflict
comes up because one, if resources are tight, because there's
(39:05):
you're trying to be profitable, there's a drought or whatever
it is, or they're cutting hay, for example, but that's
a high input thing, but they haven't got a lot
of money. The resources are going to be less. The
stress is going to be high. That means the emotions
are going to be high. But you're saying just give
them more resources. But in farming, that's not always so easy.
What do you do now?
S2 (39:26):
Firstly, all through since cave people, we've fought over resources.
We still are fighting over resources today. Look what's happening
in over in Russia. Fighting over resources. Land. We've always
done it. And today we can be resource poor. And
(39:47):
there's plenty on, especially on farms when we're looking at
the resources. And in some inputs, like rain is an
input way more. Look at the resources that are within
our influence or control to provide. Now, I was on
a board of a grain cleaning business and in our
(40:08):
strategic plan was to add bunkers, but that meant buying
the land next door. It took us four years to
do that, and when we're looking at a business fixing
it up, we put all the opportunities into a matrix,
into one of four areas one. High impact, low cost.
We do all those first. Yeah. Low impact, high cost.
(40:32):
We get rid of those. High impact high cost may
need to go into a capital expenditure budget or something
like that. It may take some years to get out,
but realistically we look at the minimum resources that we
need here to make sure that we can still remain viable.
People in groups fight over resources.
S3 (40:52):
Can you give me an example? Because I feel like
that would really help our listeners. So I'm thinking I'm
thinking harvest time, Neville and everyone. It's an expectation. As
we talked about before, the works on We've Got to Work.
But then someone was tired and the chaser bin was
going and oh no, I've just smashed the auger off
(41:13):
the side of the header because I wasn't communicating properly
with the chaser bin driver or something. Everybody's tired. Rushing up.
The rain's coming. We've got to get it off. What
would have been ideal is if we had another header
driver or another chaser bin person to take over, but
the fact is we can't get anyone, Neville, because it's
really hard to get farm workers at the moment. And
(41:36):
then I'm having a big, you know, radio war with
the chaser bin driver or I'm not. But you know,
what are we doing? Easier said than done, I feel.
S2 (41:44):
Oh, absolutely. In one farm where an incident occurred and
they went through the structure, resources, competence, commitment process, they
made a decision that I hadn't heard of before and
during harvest, to have a day off once a fortnight,
(42:05):
a day off in harvest, because they had a look
at it and they said, we've never got the crop off,
but there's this culture of sickness. Let's go just in
case there's one chance in 100 or 50 we're going
to be flooded out or, you know something's going to happen.
So they knew that sleep was a resource, and there
(42:27):
wasn't just the people, the numbers of people out there,
like as far as every one of our agricultural clients
has a position vacant. Yeah, but they made the decision
to have a day off every fortnight for where people
could refresh, for example. So when the times are resource poor,
we've just got to go through the process of refitting
(42:50):
and it's often much easier said than done. But follow
that process structure, resources, competencies, commitment.
S3 (42:58):
That makes so much sense when you see sleep as
a resource, I feel. And then if you rather than
trying to change something at harvest time or a month
before harvest, if you really go back and do that
planning in your culture, as you say, then you're going
to see sleep as a resource, which I just I've
never heard of that before really. It is such a
(43:20):
resource and I think it would save. Not only is
it going to save the conflict, but it's also going
to save probably farm safety as well, because I feel
like there's a real in farming, there's an expectation or
an idea that's just farming, that farming is just manic
or harvest is just manic, when really, if we take
(43:40):
the time, as you say, to, to plan, we not
only are we probably looking after our health better, we're
not going to smash up the machinery less conflict, which
as you say, is the most important thing for our
health is a relationships are going to be better, but
everything is just going to run smoother. And I think
just putting maybe we should have that in the spreadsheet.
S2 (43:58):
Sleep well. Um, we provide farms with what we call
a farm activity and responsibility manager. It's a spreadsheet. In it,
they put all their processes like planning. When are we
going to do post harvest debrief is what are the
learnings like in this um, just leaves the grand final,
(44:18):
for example. That's just at this time that we're doing this,
the AFL Brisbane Lions lost last year's grand final, and
what they got them to do was write down all
the learnings that they took from that. And how do
we apply it in next year? It's a basic conflict
resolution process.
S3 (44:37):
Chris Bacon just said he modelled off Sydney didn't he,
in the speech. Yeah.
S2 (44:40):
Thank you Sydney. And we beat you with it as well.
S3 (44:45):
It was like oh but it was a good game.
I thought that was an interesting comment though. We've covered
a lot of ground that I am conscious of your time,
but I did have a couple of other things that
I just wanted to to cover. So you have something
that you use called Browse Up? Yes. I wanted you
to explain that, but I also wanted you to explain
(45:06):
how you keep them up, Neville. Because and how you
are aware that even your eyebrows are down.
S2 (45:14):
Oh, look, in 2004, we were involved in doing some
men's health right through outback New South Wales in the
grips of the millennium drought. And it's still one of
the most profound things that I've been involved in. Men
came along to this evening. If this has raised any issues,
please reach out. But men more than 400% more likely
(45:37):
to complete suicide than women. Wow. We went around outback
New South Wales, Tilpa, Nymagee, Brewarrina, and we got men
to complete depression health checks. And the next day we
went through the health checks and contacted people with high scores. Now,
it was a throwaway line at one of these nights
(45:58):
and said, boys, when you go home with your eyebrows up,
if you go home with eyebrows down, you look grumpy,
then the partner looks grumpy, and then the kids say,
oh shit, moods are contagious. Bad pushes out good. So
me having my eyebrows up just makes me cognizant of
how I'm feeling, especially in stressful situations. Many years ago,
(46:18):
one of my sons and I shared this person. I
know one of their sons said, dad, we need to
have a chat, but can you eyebrows be up?
S3 (46:27):
You must have been having them down a lot.
S2 (46:29):
Oh well. Well, I was in our household. We have
permission to tell each other. Keep your eyebrows up. It's
just a little trigger. And that's why we call our
group brows up. It's just a little reminder in a
funny way. And when we're doing a leadership course, two
people left this leadership course and said, let's eyebrow stuff.
Old mate. And old mate was the truck driver that
(46:52):
came and delivered product to them. That always must have
been in a shitty mood. So with an abundance of
eyebrows up, all the staff there greeted this bloke with
their eyebrows up and he said, Neville after a week,
his eyebrows up with two and he was saying good
thanks with a smile on his face. It is a
basic human need for someone to look pleased to see us.
S3 (47:16):
And it's such an easy thing to do, isn't it? Simple.
It's simple. And as you say, attitudes or they they
are contagious. Have you got something that you use? Because
in mediation I'm sure that the temperatures get gets a
bit hot. Do you have something that you can feel
in your body or a way of telling yourself, oh,
(47:37):
my eyebrows are starting to come down, or I'm starting
to get a bit heated here. I've got to step
away because I feel like for some people that's quite easy.
But then for other people it can go from adult
to child state in seconds. Look, it's.
S2 (47:52):
Something with just with conflict before we finish, fight, flight, freeze, compromise,
collaborate or accommodate. There's people can undertake some training in
this now self-awareness and emotional maturity, especially emotional maturity. That's
where my emotional maturity. If the stressor is a two
(48:16):
out of ten, I'm going to have a two out
of ten reaction, not an eight out of ten. A
person I was doing some counseling with said once, this
week's been a disaster, right? I said, disaster, what's happening
over in Israel and places like that, that's a disaster.
And there's some things are. And I said the disaster
(48:39):
was two people disagreed with the decision she made. So
this week's been a disaster. Yeah. It's disproportional. We all realize.
And it's that awfulizing this is the worst place in
the world to work. A staff member said to me
once and I said, shit, you've been busy.
S3 (48:57):
I would love.
S2 (48:58):
That. Where can I see your passport?
S3 (49:01):
Way to validate.
S2 (49:02):
It. Yeah, well, you shouldn't be sarcastic. That's what I thought, right?
I never said say it. I thought of it, though.
My child nearly got out in a way on me.
So being cognizant, knowing I'm getting a bit wound up,
that internal voice, just what you said to yourself. And
(49:23):
at that point I choose to disengage, which is avoid
part of conflict just until I can take some deep breaths.
And I've stopped several mediations and said, look, I'm just
going to have a time out. They said, no, we
don't need a time out. And I said, yeah, I
need one. I'm just going to go for a walk.
S3 (49:40):
But that's good, though, that you can say that. And
then that would allow them to have permission to do
that as well.
S2 (49:45):
Absolutely. I know when you get on this anger and
gets away on us, it's like a rollercoaster ride. You
can't steer it. You can't slow it down. You've just
got to hang on. And I know where I am
in that queue to get on this roller coaster ride,
and I choose to step out of the queue when
it's about to become my turn. That awareness, that's where
(50:06):
people have a very short wick. And I just want
to go back to this structure bit just really quickly.
We had a client that used to throw tantrums. Shocker.
Now he'd been to several psychologists to help to no avail.
But we went back to structures to fix it. His team,
he had three on the management team. His business, with
(50:30):
his permission, at each monthly meeting structure. We got them
to report on how many tantrums he threw. What was
it over and how they felt? Structure? Yes. His permission.
So when we came to the next monthly meeting and
they had to give the reports, he had a smile
on his face because he knew that he'd behaved. So
(50:54):
we went back to that structure to fix the process,
to change the process which impacted on his commitment to behave.
S3 (51:04):
Because you had his permission, which I think is very.
S2 (51:06):
Permission. We didn't ambush him with this because he's an
emotionally immature guy.
S3 (51:11):
You might have had a tantrum.
S2 (51:13):
Correct. And they were so appreciative of his change of approach,
so appreciative. And it just calmed everything down. We did
say to him, eyebrows up, they had permission to say, hey,
eyebrows up. So we set that up and it improved.
And then I got him aside and I said, now
(51:35):
you are in trouble. He said, why? You do have
control in that situation. We do have control. It doesn't
have to get away on us. That emotional maturity.
S3 (51:47):
That's a very good point to finish on. I just
wanted to go over what we'd spoken about though. So
the VIP with the with the white flag probably is the.
S2 (51:57):
One that's that's not surrender, that's truce.
S3 (52:00):
Truce. And then the validate investigate, which is the critique,
not the criticism. And then you pick the solution. And
then you were talking about the structures. And then can
you just say that again?
S2 (52:15):
Sources. Competencies. Commitment. We've got a farm health check audit
that measures the gaps between what's actually happening and what
everyone feels should be happening. Now, to fix those gaps,
you improve your structures, your resources, your competencies, commitment. They're
the root causes.
S3 (52:33):
So if you had one piece of advice for listeners,
someone that's listening to this because they have a particular
incident or something in mind, what would the first piece
of advice be for them?
S2 (52:46):
Neville, take a deep breath.
S3 (52:49):
I thought you were going to say, sweetheart, that's a shame.
S2 (52:55):
Well, I will say is best of luck. Take a
deep breath. Usually we look at the ranking as far
as Stressor, like 100 out of 100 stressors is the
death of a child. For example, 80 out of 100
is jailed, been jailed, 60 out of 100 is moving house,
(53:18):
70th May be losing, being sacked from the job. So
the first step that we look at is where is
this on this ranking? Because I don't say to people,
just eyebrows up if it's tragic. Yeah. And life's a
contact sport. But most of what we get steamed up about,
and most of it is low level stuff that's been
built up over a long period of time can become chronic.
(53:40):
But the first step is take a deep breath. Second
step is saying, now what part am I contributing to this?
What can I fix really quickly and take responsibility for?
And then what better structures, resources, competencies, or commitment could
I put in place?
S3 (53:56):
Sounds good. Now, is there anything else you wanted to add, Neville?
S2 (54:00):
Yes. Just with the blokes out there. Our death rate
is twice that of women up to the age of 60.
Yet we access Medicare services 30% less than women. Dads.
It's okay. Let go the pen. You can never do
succession planning too early. We can do it when it's
(54:20):
too late and have a sense of humour. One day
we are all going to be dead. Enjoy some of
the fights that we're having and don't get stressed over
the small stuff. Have a chuckle and keep your eyebrows up.
S3 (54:41):
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S1 (54:52):
BCG drives the prosperity of Australian farmers, communities and landscapes
through applied research, innovation and events. To find out more
about what we're up to, our team and events near you,
visit BCG. Warrego.
BCG acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and
their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our
respects to their elders, past and present.
S2 (00:10):
The reason why it's so critical is because everything that
we do in every group has human interaction at its core.
The quality of our lives is determined by the quality
of our relationships, overwhelmingly. It's a basic human need. Being
(00:33):
part of a supportive, caring group has a bigger impact
on our health, both physical and mental, than anything else.
More than getting the right exercise, eating the right diet,
going to the doctor, taking the right medicine. Being part
of a supportive, healthy group is just a basic human need,
(00:55):
and that's why it's so important to be able to
address conflict early and appropriately. It's just determines the quality
of our lives.
S3 (01:05):
Welcome back to Shared Solutions by BCG. I'm Janine Batters.
I'm excited to be bringing you another series sponsored by
Action Steel. Planning for prosperity. It will build on our
first series planning for profit. I'll talk to experts in
their field about a range of areas that you can use,
planning in your business to help your bottom line and
your well-being. Today, we're speaking with brows up consultant Neville Brady,
(01:27):
who works with farming families and businesses to resolve conflict. Welcome, Neville.
S2 (01:31):
Hey. G'day.
S3 (01:32):
So pleased to have you here, Neville. Today I'm really
looking forward to our chat. But as we always do
just to get started, can you give our listeners a
little bit of a background on who you are, what
you do, and why you're interested in conflict resolution?
S2 (01:45):
Yeah. Chose the right parents. Janine grew up in a
family that had shearing contractor mum, a whimsy, witty woman
that dealt with a lot of conflict with humour as
we were growing up. Why in this area? It started
out I the last job I had was sales manager
(02:07):
of a radio station, and that's where I undertook some
training and studies in marketing. National mutual purchased one of
the assignments way back when, in 92, and it just
sort of found my way into this. Started out in consulting,
and it's been a learning process for 35 years. And
(02:29):
the real education has come from working with different businesses.
And for the bits, the clunky bits, the bits that
didn't work. Reflecting on it and a continuous improvement process.
S3 (02:44):
I thought you were going to say, Neville, you got
into a lot of fights.
S2 (02:49):
Well, there are low level different types of fights, isn't there, Janine?
Like so. It's what we construe as fighting conflict, but
I've been trained in counseling, family mediation and importantly, mental
first aid health. We have a slogan that we help
people fix the bits that give them the shits. And
(03:11):
in every group there is, whether it's a family group,
social group, community group, there's always gaps between what's actually
happening and what everyone feels should be happening, which of
course creates conflict.
S3 (03:24):
I think that paints a picture of you, Neville, very
well for our listeners.
S2 (03:29):
And we try to do it with humour, with like
some circumstances, there is no humour in it. However, humour
is a great tension reliever in the right and appropriate
environment and with the right appropriate words.
S3 (03:46):
It can make people relax, can't it? It makes things easier. Okay, good.
So we'll jump in. Neville, why is conflict resolution and
being confident in being able asked to resolve conflict, important
in farming.
S2 (04:01):
And because of the high stakes in family farming, there's
an extra layer of complexity that we witness compared to
workplace businesses without that family connection. Now, in family farms,
one of the things is sometimes we talk to our
family members like we would not dare talk to a
(04:24):
staff member or a work colleague. So in the reason
why it's so critical is because everything that we do
in every group has human interaction at its core. The
quality of our lives is determined by the quality of
our relationships, overwhelmingly. It's a basic human need. Being part
(04:50):
of a supportive, caring group has a bigger impact on
our health, both physical and mental, than anything else. More
than getting the right exercise, eating the right diet, going
to the doctor, taking the right medicine. Being part of
a supportive, healthy group is just a basic human need,
(05:13):
and that's why it's so important to be able to
address conflict early and appropriately. It's just determines the quality
of our lives.
S3 (05:23):
That's a really good point because you don't often think
about it like that, do you? I was interested when
you said, we don't often talk to our family members
in ways that we perhaps wouldn't talk to staff. Do
you think that it's also a case of perhaps we'd
ask family members to do things, perhaps that we wouldn't
ask staff to do, and then that creates conflict as well.
S2 (05:44):
At the core of that is expectations. Sometimes we expect
more from family because they're so involved, like overworking. And
if we're living on the farm, we're living at work
seven days a week. So it's something that there's an
expectation to overwork and over involve.
S3 (06:06):
That's such a critical link. I think that expectation, because
I feel like the difference in expectations is so often
where conflict arises.
S2 (06:15):
Everyone has a has a notion of fairness, and everyone's
expectations varies based on backgrounds, upbringings, cultures. And it's something
that aligning expectations and each one having the same view
of expectations is a great place to start.
S3 (06:37):
Is making sure everyone's on the same page.
S2 (06:40):
Correct, same understanding and just with the language. Sometimes I
remember being on this farm, and I heard the older
brother use some expletives that their would not tolerate in
any workplace. And, um, about a month later, I used
those same expletives with him, and he said, you can't
(07:00):
talk to me like that. And I said, that's a
great point. Can't talk to your other siblings like that either.
So not that I used, you know, fire with fire,
but for him to experience it from someone else's point
of view and as the person receiving and hearing those
words is different to how it's sent. So the expectations
(07:22):
were in this business was agreeing to the way that
we would communicate.
S3 (07:28):
And you were really building empathy there, weren't you, because
you're helping them understand how the other person felt.
S2 (07:33):
Correct. Empathy is at its core, and it's it's that
vicarious experience. And we have a process in conflict resolution.
And we might go into it a bit more through
the podcast and it's VIP.
S3 (07:50):
Let's talk about that.
S2 (07:51):
Neville V if you picture two people standing facing each
other and there's a number on the ground that they're
both arguing over now, the number is six or the
number is nine, depending on where you're standing, depending on
your point of view. So people are arguing this is
a six, Janine. And you're saying, no, it's a nine.
Now the VIP. I'm pausing a bit because I want
(08:16):
to make sure this is really heard. V stands for validate.
It's me repeating not parrot fashion, but just repeating back
to you, Janine, what I heard you say and how
you felt. Now, if I do that accurately one it
(08:39):
validates the other person's position and that can be therapeutic. But, Janine,
it doesn't necessarily mean I'm agreeing with you. I'm just
validating what I'm hearing. And the I is for investigate.
So let's have a look at some situations. What do
you think we should do here. What are the options.
(09:02):
And then P stands for pick one. Pick a solution.
Now in every business we go into one of the
biggest things listed as far as what they'd like. Our
help to fix or improve is communication. What they really,
I think they're really saying is fix the miscommunication, because
(09:28):
every one of us hear things sometimes that aren't said.
We interpret things in a way that's not how it's meant.
So by me repeating back accurately, I don't change what
you're trying to tell me, Janine. I validate so, Janine,
from my understanding, you'd like my input into a conflict
(09:51):
resolution podcast. Yes, we get it right because we all
change things. We change what we hear by leaving out
information and changing information. So if I do that validate accurately,
that avoids the miscommunication. So it's a real process.
S3 (10:10):
Do you feel like that also helps you to pause,
take a step back and hear what they're saying.
S2 (10:18):
It helps us take that moment to really clearly understand. Janine. Yes,
I just did the V part of you then and
you immediately said yes. It is. If I asked for
one of the things that blocks listening is I'm rehearsing
what I'm about to say before you have even finished.
(10:42):
And that's that self-talk. I might be thinking, oh, bloody hell,
she's having a go at me. Oh, geez. As soon
as I have my say, I'm going to straighten this
right up. So I've just missed what you've said. So
it forces me if I'm in that habit of validating it.
I have that self management and impulse control. A lot
(11:05):
of the time to repeat back what I'm hearing you saying,
which is a personal discipline of me to really listen.
The biggest one of the we often ask people when
dealing with others and I'll check random sample of one
with you. When dealing with others kids, family, friends, colleagues,
(11:26):
I get annoyed or frustrated when often people respond, don't listen. Yeah,
very often. And the only way that I can prove
that I've listened to you accurately is for me to
repeat back what I've heard you say. That's the only
way we can prove to someone that we've listened. Not
by saying, I understand how you feel, or yes, I
(11:48):
understand that's the only way kids learn how to listen
by us listening to them without interrupting.
S3 (11:55):
Yes they do.
S2 (11:56):
That's how they learn. And when my kids were growing up,
most of the time, even though I do conflict resolution,
I still suffer from the same thing every other human
does too. But when my kids were growing up, most
of the time, especially in the difficult conversations, I used
to listen to them without interrupting. And then I used
(12:18):
to say, son, what I'm hearing is this and this.
Is that correct? And you go, yes. And then if
I had my say, if they interrupted me, I used
to say, excuse me, did I just pay you the
courtesy of listening to you without interrupting? Yes. Can I
have my turn? Is that fair? And it teaches them
how to listen. That's the process.
S3 (12:39):
Such an important skill, I think. Listening. Can you. I
think with this VIP, I think we need an example.
So we have an example, and then you can talk
through each one, because I find that sometimes these things
are very good on paper, Neville. But when I take
them out and I try and do them, it's not
so easy. So for example, let's think of a conflict issue.
(13:02):
So I'm thinking, okay, what happens if I get a
phone call and there's a guy waiting for the truck
and he's saying, no one's here to load me? And
I say, Bobby was supposed to load you at 8:00,
didn't he? What? Like, that's probably a pretty fair thing
if something's going to happen. And then. So he's upset,
hasn't been loaded. How are you going to deal with
(13:24):
that situation with the VIP? One of the.
S2 (13:27):
First things that we need to manage is our own
emotions when we're in conflict. Now, in that case, I
would be guessing that person would be feeling let down
and maybe annoyed that he's been held up due to
someone making a commitment that wasn't kept. So when you
look at the four basic emotions which are anger, fear,
(13:51):
joy and sadness, the big four, that person would be
feeling what in that situation?
S3 (13:59):
Probably anger. Low level sadness maybe. Yeah.
S2 (14:03):
Disappointment. Mhm. So under anger is frustration annoyed irritated. And
there's a continuum all the way to rage. So he
may be feeling frustrated. So to validate is so you're
frustrated at the moment because you've been held up and
someone's let you down. You just quickly restate it. And
(14:25):
if they go yes we ask can I ask a
couple of questions. And that's when we investigate. Now I've
been in mediations and with one family mediation I said
to one person, you're so angry at the moment, you
just want to fill this whole living room full of
uppercuts And when I validated his anger, he went like this. Yes.
(14:54):
Now that deep intake of breath, we often say to
someone when they're upset to take a deep breath. But
if we say to someone who are feeling angry, those
or anxious, just take a deep breath. Usually they take
a short one and say, don't tell me to calm down.
(15:16):
By validating, we're looking for that intake of deep breath.
S3 (15:20):
You're allowing them to feel their anger, aren't you? You're
giving them permission?
S2 (15:24):
Yeah. Then when people take that intake of breath, it
switches off the body's production of cortisol and adrenaline, the
fight and flight thing that helps us. And we're critical
thinking takes place. And problem solving place in the brain
is now more likely to kick in. So validating the
(15:45):
emotions first and validating what people have said. They feel
heard and it's critical.
S3 (15:52):
Perfect. But what about my truck driver? What are we
going to do, Neville?
S2 (15:55):
So you want me to solve help you solve this problem, Janine? Yes.
So I've just validated again. Yes, I'm good at.
S3 (16:03):
It.
S2 (16:03):
I know you are good at it.
S3 (16:06):
I think you're very good at it.
S2 (16:08):
And I might say so. Janine, what are the options
that you face with as far as solving this?
S3 (16:13):
Well, I need to find out how the message got missed.
I need to find out where the communication didn't happen.
S2 (16:21):
So we need to find out where that problem started
from in the first place.
S3 (16:25):
Yes.
S2 (16:26):
So I just validate again. Yes. So I don't problem
solve so well you're there. You're the one that knows
going on. So you solve your own bloody problem.
S3 (16:38):
I've got time for this. I've got to load another track.
S2 (16:41):
And now we're into the dance, aren't we? to. Sure.
S3 (16:45):
Yeah. So yeah you're just validating again.
S2 (16:47):
Validate investigate problem solve. Now when we when we go
on to farmer in a business, we just listen to
and validate what everyone's saying to us that they want
to fix, improve their frustrations, their concerns, their aspirations not
being met. We just give everyone a really good listening to.
(17:08):
We validate what they've said so they can be sure
that we've got it and it gives them confidence. Then
we just report on the themes. These are the themes
now the reason themes are so important. Many years ago,
I was a rather mature 14 year old and I
(17:31):
said to mum, mum, everyone's giving me the shits. She said,
oh sweetheart, everyone can't be wrong. So the theme was
Neville may be the center of what the problem is.
Everyone can't be wrong. So we pick up on the
themes of what people are saying, which usually represents the
(17:55):
root cause. Here are the themes. So that's the reason
when we go into business, people are far more likely
to listen to me is if I first listen to
them and validated their view. Ah, so you're seeing this
as a noun, is that correct? Yes. Then we can
(18:19):
feel it from their point of view, which is that
empathy response.
S3 (18:23):
People relax a little bit, don't they? They relax. They
feel validated. They stop worrying about whether you understand it.
And they can actually use their thinking brain, as you say,
to then start investigating. What? Yes. So what are we
going to do? So you validated me. Yep. Oh, mate.
Still upset?
S2 (18:39):
Yep. And then the old mate is less upset and
more cognizant, and then we can usually move to solution
focused rather than problem focused, because people are reluctant to
move from being problem focused, whether they feel they're a
(18:59):
victim or something to solution focused without their first view
being validated. Validating is a basic human need to be
heard and understood. You also meet the human need to
feel appreciated.
S3 (19:15):
It's so important, isn't it? I feel like we have
spent a lot of time on the validation because it
almost is the most important, probably.
S2 (19:22):
The best example to family example. And um, I'll tell
it in the third person, like it happened to me,
but one of the client's son got, uh, suspended from school.
So when he went up, the first thing he did
was take responsibility and said, hi, I'm just here. This
(19:42):
is difficult from all of us as a dad, as
a I can only imagine what it's like. Frustrating from
your point, as far as dealing with an extroverted boy
that's over the top. And I'm here to apologize. Now
in conflict, someone has to wave the white flag of truce. Janine,
(20:05):
if there's four family members arguing, there's four reasons for
it and five truths. If you and I have an argument,
there's three truths. There's your truth. My truth. And then
there's the truth. Yeah, truth. And someone's got to take responsibility.
The leader is the one that says, hang on a minute, Janine.
This is my fault. You know, we've been arguing and
(20:28):
I've been doing it the wrong way. And I just
want to let I just want to apologize for what
I've contributed to this. So someone this person took Responsibility
and said, this is my fault. I'm his dad and
I haven't been engaged. I'm not blaming you for not
telling me this is going on. This is my fault.
(20:48):
If I was an engaged dad, I'd know. And the
teacher said told him what the situation was. And this
dad immediately said so. My son's been a class clown
showing you no respect, which is sabotaging the other kids education.
Am I hearing you correctly? And the teacher immediately went, yes.
So all the misdemeanors he didn't have to go through
(21:09):
now and explain to make sure he'd been heard. And
this dad understood. So that's when they moved to that
solution focused bit.
S3 (21:19):
Yep. So is that another step then? Because you first
you said, hey, I've done something wrong and waved the
white flag. But that was before the validation. So I'm
feeling like there might be a step that you haven't mentioned.
S2 (21:33):
Well, there's a little bit as far as understanding this
is something that my mother was saying to me when
I said, everyone's giving me the shits. It's called the
conflict attribution theory. My failures, things that are happening to
me are more to do with external forces. And you know,
there's reasons why I'm not succeeding. But if I point to,
(21:57):
I'll mate. The attribution theory is he's an idiot. That's
why he's or he's lazy or he's incompetent. We tend
to internalize it with others and put it to their character.
But when it happens to us, we can justify it
because our the tractor broke down or something else happened.
(22:18):
We don't actually take responsibility. Now for those who are listening,
only those because no one else is listening to this.
Maybe everything that's happening in my life, I'm contributing to it.
And when in a workshop, I get people to point
to me with their fingers and say, Neville, it's your fault.
And if everyone can imagine them pointing to someone and
(22:41):
saying this is your fault. We then ask them to
count how many fingers on that same hand are pointing
directly back at us. Now, if it's my fault, I
can fix it. If it's everyone else's fault, I can't.
And we often are victims and say there's nothing I
(23:02):
can do about this. Rather than thinking, what am I
doing that's contributing to this? Now, if one person in
a group acknowledges that it gives other people in this mediation,
in this family farm that may have strained relationships, it
gives permission for people to do the same thing.
S3 (23:21):
Makes them human.
S2 (23:23):
Yes. And especially not always, but most of the time. Jeanine,
I see the tribal elder, the dad.
S3 (23:36):
You're choosing your words very carefully there.
S2 (23:38):
I am choosing it very carefully. I don't want this
to sound sexist, but usually there's a alpha male. The
the traditional framing of family farms, like in one family farm.
A 76 year old dad. I did two things with him. One,
(24:01):
I asked him if there was a difference between being
a dad and being a parent. And he struggled a bit.
And he said, why? And I said, you don't have
to parent these 250 year old sons that you have
any longer time to be a dad is being critical, blaming, judgmental,
(24:22):
eyebrows down, coming across as a parent, talking to them
like children even though they're in their 50s. And I
also gave him a pen and I passed him a
pen and I said, now I want you to take
this pen from me. And the harder he pulled, the
harder I hung on to the pen. And I said,
what's the problem? He said, you're not letting go. And
(24:44):
I said, oh, good. That's what I need to talk
to you about.
S3 (24:47):
Oh, how did he tell you that?
S2 (24:50):
And when he came to the meeting, after going through
some counselling, he said, listen, boys, I've got to put
my hand up for something here. I've been treating you
like kids, and I just want to let you know
that's not what my intent was. So he flew. He
just waved that flag of truce, Janine, and took responsibility.
And the relief which comes under joy, anger, fear, joy
(25:14):
and sadness was palpable in with the two sons in
their 50s.
S3 (25:19):
That's a good point. That is such a good point about.
And I have heard that, you know, if you point
the finger, how many are pointing it back at you.
I've heard that. But the way you explained that then,
I think has been the best. And I also strongly
believe in that. You can't Control what other people do.
I say that to my kids a lot. You can't
control what they do. You can only control what you do.
(25:41):
And you're right. You can really take back some of
your power. If you can say I'm part of the problem,
and then. Then you can start thinking about solutions. So
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(26:26):
I feel like we need a first step the little
white flag. And then we've got the validate, which you've
done very well. So now we're going into investigate? Yep.
How do you investigate without. Because I could say. But
I sent him a text message and he said, yeah,
no worries. I told him about that last week. Yep.
(26:46):
So how do how do you investigate without making the
problem bigger?
S2 (26:52):
Okay. Yes. Um. Don't know. While I'm doing this, I'll
just Google the answer. Yeah. I'll just take one step back.
When we've been invited into a business, and we've never
been invited into a business that's been going really well.
It's only the stress and the angst when people call
us in. And I'll explain what the root cause of
(27:16):
that has been. We explain the difference between I'll ask you,
is there a difference between critique and criticism?
S3 (27:23):
I think so.
S2 (27:24):
What do you think the difference is?
S3 (27:27):
I think well, for me, I would say critique is
like positive sandwiching something which I know it's not, but
I would always say something really nice and positive for start.
And then I would say, I really like what you've
done here. Do you think perhaps you could have a
think about this? But overall you've done a really good job,
whereas criticism would be like, I hate, why have you
(27:49):
spelt that that's the wrong there or whatever, because I'm
an English person. Yeah. Fix it. Yeah.
S2 (27:57):
Now one tone of voice in that second one, your
tone of voice came across as a parent. Yes. Critical judging. Harsh.
And in businesses, it's the parent in us all. We
have three ego states. One is a parent, one is
an adult, and one is a child. Now, when my
(28:19):
granddaughter is pushing a pusher with a doll in it,
she's been a parent. Good. She takes the doll out
and tries to sit in the pusher herself. She's now
being a.
S3 (28:30):
Baby or the.
S2 (28:31):
Child When she works out, she can't fit. She's been
a adult. Yes. Yeah. Those three states. Now I can
be a concerned, supportive parent. Is everything okay? Can I
help with anything? Or I can be blaming, judgmental, critical harping,
carping in the adult ego state. It's proportional, it's calm,
(28:54):
it's even. And in a child ego state, I can
throw tantrums. This isn't fair. It's not my fault. Or
I can be curious and fun. Now to get back
to criticism and critique critiquing. When we explain to people
about investigating, we're just critiquing here. We're not criticizing, we're
(29:17):
not blaming. So let's have a choice about what is
are the things that we could do to change in
order for this not to happen again.
S3 (29:25):
So that's how you phrase it then, don't you frame
it that way?
S2 (29:28):
Yes.
S3 (29:29):
So that's the next one. And then I could say, oh, well,
we probably could have scheduled this in a calendar, or
we could have made that phone call and made it
have a follow up message last night, or have a
system and a structure.
S2 (29:40):
Ah, I'm glad you brought up that word structure. The
number one thing that contributes to strained relationships in family businesses,
particularly a loose or informal structures, job roles, responsibilities. Who's
got the authority for this structures is the first place
(30:01):
in a family mediation that we go to. And in
one family business, we just put a corporate structure into
a family business. We had people that were responsible for
certain areas of the farm. We got people to report. Now,
the first item, and if people have got a pen
and a piece of paper, the first item on the
agenda in any farming business structure that comes under structure, processes,
(30:26):
procedures come under structure. Exactly what you did there, Janine. Oh,
next time we should do this. And this. You're focusing
on changing a process or procedure. So structures is number one.
So we set an agenda where we agreed to meet
every month, which is a conflict resolution meeting first on
(30:48):
an agenda work health and safety. Farms are the most
one of the most dangerous, especially for men over 60.
Dangerous workplaces in Australia.
S3 (30:58):
Why? For men over 60.
S2 (30:59):
Falls were not. As we lose some muscle mass, our
ego still says, yes, I can still wrestle that ram
and we tend to take more risks. But with older
fellas now I'm 63. I can't jump off the back
of the ute anymore. Sometimes we try and keep up
with the young fellas.
S3 (31:16):
Yep, yep. Okay, so keep going. Sorry.
S2 (31:18):
So structures work, health and safety. Let's have a five
minute conversation around work health and safety. And make sure
it's documented. Every month a different person brings a reminder
so we share it. Second item on the agenda, which
is a conflict resolution discussion rework. What were the humps
and bumps that didn't go right? I was held up
(31:40):
at the silo with a truck that was reworked. It
was lost time. Now as soon as you put rework
on the agenda, guess what happens to the instances of
rework in that team?
S3 (31:49):
Less.
S2 (31:50):
Correct. Why?
S3 (31:52):
Because they don't want to stand up and say they've
done the wrong thing.
S2 (31:54):
Correct. Exactly. Which feeds into accountability. So we're looking at
structure to improve accountability. And let's have a talk about
what the rework issue is and how we fix it.
Third item on the agenda individual reports. We force people
to talk about what they're doing. And in the reports
(32:16):
are things like what went really well for me. Last
month was my best day was my worst day was because.
So we start talking about those things in an adult
ego state at a meeting where we're all adults and
then objectives for next month. So that's an example of structure.
(32:37):
So the four steps are to resolve conflict better structures.
Next one we look at is resources. Did you have
the information technology equipment all the things you needed to
do a good job. Third item competency. Did you know
what to do and how to do it? Fourth commitment ambition.
(33:01):
So we put this statement up in a business that
says when things go wrong or we don't meet expectations,
we need to review our structures. We didn't have the
right resources to do the job properly. I didn't know
what to do or how to do the job properly
or commitment. I took a shortcut. Now when we put
that up, we give everyone permission to talk about conflict
(33:23):
in an emotionally mature Mindset and space where no one's apparent.
Talking to others like a child. Yes.
S3 (33:34):
Got you. So there was a couple of things that
really piqued my interest when you were speaking, Neville. The
first one was the rework and how you were saying that. Yeah,
nobody wants to be the one that stands up and says, oh,
I marked up. However, you also then went on to
say that each individual report and then they went and said, oh,
this went well for me. This didn't go well for me.
(33:56):
How do you because obviously you want less mistakes, so
you want less rework, but you don't necessarily want to
be creating an environment where people don't want to say, oh,
I mucked up either. And that's where, you know, when
you're talking about the individual reports, how this went well,
this didn't go well. I think that's probably where people
(34:17):
are allowed to be human. They're allowed to make mistakes.
So what's different with can you see where I'm going
with this? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
S2 (34:24):
When it comes from, no one wants to stand up
and say, I made a mistake. That's as ridiculous as
everyone wants to stand up and say they've made mistakes.
We try and create an environment because we're human. We
want to create an environment where people feel supported, to
take responsibility and without fear of retribution, snide remarks, sarcasm,
(34:50):
or being judged or feeling like a child. However, we
are human. Like the other day I backed out and
just backed into a bit of a drum. Now I
should have been paid more attention, right? But we're human.
We are. We're going to have lapses. But that what
we mentioned earlier about the number one thing that impacts
(35:13):
on our health more than anything else is being part
of a supportive, caring group. So we do want an
environment where the leader says, and a client of ours
who was particularly hard to manage. Emotionally immature child, threw
tantrums and called people aholes when after hanging up and
(35:37):
I said to him, I've failed here. I'm taking responsibility,
such and such. Here you can have your money back
because you're still talking like this and not taking responsibility
for the work environment that you've created here. Now, if
you don't acknowledge this to staff, then I'm sacking myself
(35:58):
and taking responsibility just prior to the Christmas party. He
stood up in front of everyone and apologised and said,
this is my fault, like that person did at the school.
S3 (36:09):
Because you led by example, didn't you.
S2 (36:10):
Lead by example? And it made everyone else permission to
put their hand up and say, oh, I didn't do
my best here. Now that what's creates a super performing
team where they feel supported and encouraged, not condemned.
S3 (36:26):
And also one where it's not. We're not trying to
reach perfection because perfection is not really achievable, but it's
just very good.
S2 (36:35):
Actually, very perfect is the enemy of very good, the enemy.
We put in place this continuous improvement process, and we
give people permission to talk about their mishaps. And in
in one place in particular, a trucking company, there was
six departments all headed up by men, very deadline driven,
(36:57):
and you could almost smell the testosterone in the room.
And the and we introduced two things into their reports
that got them more collaborative and more cooperative. Two things.
And those two things were maintenance actions, relationship maintenance actions.
One was what I'm struggling with is now I said,
(37:21):
what I said yes. What I'm struggling with though a
deadline driven. They were resource poor. We all struggle. Life's
a contact sport. And the other thing. So when they
that was in their monthly report, when they said I'm
struggling with this, it triggered off that empathy response and said,
oh look I could help you with that. Or they
knew in their department, if they did their job better,
(37:43):
it would help the others in the other department that
empathy and the other one that they had to report
on was who I'd like to thank for making my
job easier.
S3 (37:53):
That's a good one.
S2 (37:54):
Who I'd like to thank. In a men's health group,
I put up five sums on a whiteboard and I
get one wrong. Just simple sums like five plus five
equals ten. But I get one wrong on purpose. And
I say, what do you notice said? And someone inevitably says,
you can't add up. And I said, oh, you never
said congratulations, you got four, right? That fifth 1st May
need a bit of an adjustment. So having people permission
(38:20):
and supported Especially feeling vulnerable is a really courageous approach.
And if it's done by leaders, sorry guys, I've stuffed
up here and seeing someone maturely in an adult ego state.
Take responsibility gives everyone else permission to do that too.
S3 (38:40):
It makes such sense. And you were talking about resourcing
and the truck drivers with their low resources. And you
said it made a comment earlier before when you were
talking about the structures and then the resourcing. How do
you talk to farmers about resourcing? Because I feel like
that would be an area where a lot of conflict
comes up because one, if resources are tight, because there's
(39:05):
you're trying to be profitable, there's a drought or whatever
it is, or they're cutting hay, for example, but that's
a high input thing, but they haven't got a lot
of money. The resources are going to be less. The
stress is going to be high. That means the emotions
are going to be high. But you're saying just give
them more resources. But in farming, that's not always so easy.
What do you do now?
S2 (39:26):
Firstly, all through since cave people, we've fought over resources.
We still are fighting over resources today. Look what's happening
in over in Russia. Fighting over resources. Land. We've always
done it. And today we can be resource poor. And
(39:47):
there's plenty on, especially on farms when we're looking at
the resources. And in some inputs, like rain is an
input way more. Look at the resources that are within
our influence or control to provide. Now, I was on
a board of a grain cleaning business and in our
(40:08):
strategic plan was to add bunkers, but that meant buying
the land next door. It took us four years to
do that, and when we're looking at a business fixing
it up, we put all the opportunities into a matrix,
into one of four areas one. High impact, low cost.
We do all those first. Yeah. Low impact, high cost.
(40:32):
We get rid of those. High impact high cost may
need to go into a capital expenditure budget or something
like that. It may take some years to get out,
but realistically we look at the minimum resources that we
need here to make sure that we can still remain viable.
People in groups fight over resources.
S3 (40:52):
Can you give me an example? Because I feel like
that would really help our listeners. So I'm thinking I'm
thinking harvest time, Neville and everyone. It's an expectation. As
we talked about before, the works on We've Got to Work.
But then someone was tired and the chaser bin was
going and oh no, I've just smashed the auger off
(41:13):
the side of the header because I wasn't communicating properly
with the chaser bin driver or something. Everybody's tired. Rushing up.
The rain's coming. We've got to get it off. What
would have been ideal is if we had another header
driver or another chaser bin person to take over, but
the fact is we can't get anyone, Neville, because it's
really hard to get farm workers at the moment. And
(41:36):
then I'm having a big, you know, radio war with
the chaser bin driver or I'm not. But you know,
what are we doing? Easier said than done, I feel.
S2 (41:44):
Oh, absolutely. In one farm where an incident occurred and
they went through the structure, resources, competence, commitment process, they
made a decision that I hadn't heard of before and
during harvest, to have a day off once a fortnight,
(42:05):
a day off in harvest, because they had a look
at it and they said, we've never got the crop off,
but there's this culture of sickness. Let's go just in
case there's one chance in 100 or 50 we're going
to be flooded out or, you know something's going to happen.
So they knew that sleep was a resource, and there
(42:27):
wasn't just the people, the numbers of people out there,
like as far as every one of our agricultural clients
has a position vacant. Yeah, but they made the decision
to have a day off every fortnight for where people
could refresh, for example. So when the times are resource poor,
we've just got to go through the process of refitting
(42:50):
and it's often much easier said than done. But follow
that process structure, resources, competencies, commitment.
S3 (42:58):
That makes so much sense when you see sleep as
a resource, I feel. And then if you rather than
trying to change something at harvest time or a month
before harvest, if you really go back and do that
planning in your culture, as you say, then you're going
to see sleep as a resource, which I just I've
never heard of that before really. It is such a
(43:20):
resource and I think it would save. Not only is
it going to save the conflict, but it's also going
to save probably farm safety as well, because I feel
like there's a real in farming, there's an expectation or
an idea that's just farming, that farming is just manic
or harvest is just manic, when really, if we take
(43:40):
the time, as you say, to, to plan, we not
only are we probably looking after our health better, we're
not going to smash up the machinery less conflict, which
as you say, is the most important thing for our
health is a relationships are going to be better, but
everything is just going to run smoother. And I think
just putting maybe we should have that in the spreadsheet.
S2 (43:58):
Sleep well. Um, we provide farms with what we call
a farm activity and responsibility manager. It's a spreadsheet. In it,
they put all their processes like planning. When are we
going to do post harvest debrief is what are the
learnings like in this um, just leaves the grand final,
(44:18):
for example. That's just at this time that we're doing this,
the AFL Brisbane Lions lost last year's grand final, and
what they got them to do was write down all
the learnings that they took from that. And how do
we apply it in next year? It's a basic conflict
resolution process.
S3 (44:37):
Chris Bacon just said he modelled off Sydney didn't he,
in the speech. Yeah.
S2 (44:40):
Thank you Sydney. And we beat you with it as well.
S3 (44:45):
It was like oh but it was a good game.
I thought that was an interesting comment though. We've covered
a lot of ground that I am conscious of your time,
but I did have a couple of other things that
I just wanted to to cover. So you have something
that you use called Browse Up? Yes. I wanted you
to explain that, but I also wanted you to explain
(45:06):
how you keep them up, Neville. Because and how you
are aware that even your eyebrows are down.
S2 (45:14):
Oh, look, in 2004, we were involved in doing some
men's health right through outback New South Wales in the
grips of the millennium drought. And it's still one of
the most profound things that I've been involved in. Men
came along to this evening. If this has raised any issues,
please reach out. But men more than 400% more likely
(45:37):
to complete suicide than women. Wow. We went around outback
New South Wales, Tilpa, Nymagee, Brewarrina, and we got men
to complete depression health checks. And the next day we
went through the health checks and contacted people with high scores. Now,
it was a throwaway line at one of these nights
(45:58):
and said, boys, when you go home with your eyebrows up,
if you go home with eyebrows down, you look grumpy,
then the partner looks grumpy, and then the kids say,
oh shit, moods are contagious. Bad pushes out good. So
me having my eyebrows up just makes me cognizant of
how I'm feeling, especially in stressful situations. Many years ago,
(46:18):
one of my sons and I shared this person. I
know one of their sons said, dad, we need to
have a chat, but can you eyebrows be up?
S3 (46:27):
You must have been having them down a lot.
S2 (46:29):
Oh well. Well, I was in our household. We have
permission to tell each other. Keep your eyebrows up. It's
just a little trigger. And that's why we call our
group brows up. It's just a little reminder in a
funny way. And when we're doing a leadership course, two
people left this leadership course and said, let's eyebrow stuff.
Old mate. And old mate was the truck driver that
(46:52):
came and delivered product to them. That always must have
been in a shitty mood. So with an abundance of
eyebrows up, all the staff there greeted this bloke with
their eyebrows up and he said, Neville after a week,
his eyebrows up with two and he was saying good
thanks with a smile on his face. It is a
basic human need for someone to look pleased to see us.
S3 (47:16):
And it's such an easy thing to do, isn't it? Simple.
It's simple. And as you say, attitudes or they they
are contagious. Have you got something that you use? Because
in mediation I'm sure that the temperatures get gets a
bit hot. Do you have something that you can feel
in your body or a way of telling yourself, oh,
(47:37):
my eyebrows are starting to come down, or I'm starting
to get a bit heated here. I've got to step
away because I feel like for some people that's quite easy.
But then for other people it can go from adult
to child state in seconds. Look, it's.
S2 (47:52):
Something with just with conflict before we finish, fight, flight, freeze, compromise,
collaborate or accommodate. There's people can undertake some training in
this now self-awareness and emotional maturity, especially emotional maturity. That's
where my emotional maturity. If the stressor is a two
(48:16):
out of ten, I'm going to have a two out
of ten reaction, not an eight out of ten. A
person I was doing some counseling with said once, this
week's been a disaster, right? I said, disaster, what's happening
over in Israel and places like that, that's a disaster.
And there's some things are. And I said the disaster
(48:39):
was two people disagreed with the decision she made. So
this week's been a disaster. Yeah. It's disproportional. We all realize.
And it's that awfulizing this is the worst place in
the world to work. A staff member said to me
once and I said, shit, you've been busy.
S3 (48:57):
I would love.
S2 (48:58):
That. Where can I see your passport?
S3 (49:01):
Way to validate.
S2 (49:02):
It. Yeah, well, you shouldn't be sarcastic. That's what I thought, right?
I never said say it. I thought of it, though.
My child nearly got out in a way on me.
So being cognizant, knowing I'm getting a bit wound up,
that internal voice, just what you said to yourself. And
(49:23):
at that point I choose to disengage, which is avoid
part of conflict just until I can take some deep breaths.
And I've stopped several mediations and said, look, I'm just
going to have a time out. They said, no, we
don't need a time out. And I said, yeah, I
need one. I'm just going to go for a walk.
S3 (49:40):
But that's good, though, that you can say that. And
then that would allow them to have permission to do
that as well.
S2 (49:45):
Absolutely. I know when you get on this anger and
gets away on us, it's like a rollercoaster ride. You
can't steer it. You can't slow it down. You've just
got to hang on. And I know where I am
in that queue to get on this roller coaster ride,
and I choose to step out of the queue when
it's about to become my turn. That awareness, that's where
(50:06):
people have a very short wick. And I just want
to go back to this structure bit just really quickly.
We had a client that used to throw tantrums. Shocker.
Now he'd been to several psychologists to help to no avail.
But we went back to structures to fix it. His team,
he had three on the management team. His business, with
(50:30):
his permission, at each monthly meeting structure. We got them
to report on how many tantrums he threw. What was
it over and how they felt? Structure? Yes. His permission.
So when we came to the next monthly meeting and
they had to give the reports, he had a smile
on his face because he knew that he'd behaved. So
(50:54):
we went back to that structure to fix the process,
to change the process which impacted on his commitment to behave.
S3 (51:04):
Because you had his permission, which I think is very.
S2 (51:06):
Permission. We didn't ambush him with this because he's an
emotionally immature guy.
S3 (51:11):
You might have had a tantrum.
S2 (51:13):
Correct. And they were so appreciative of his change of approach,
so appreciative. And it just calmed everything down. We did
say to him, eyebrows up, they had permission to say, hey,
eyebrows up. So we set that up and it improved.
And then I got him aside and I said, now
(51:35):
you are in trouble. He said, why? You do have
control in that situation. We do have control. It doesn't
have to get away on us. That emotional maturity.
S3 (51:47):
That's a very good point to finish on. I just
wanted to go over what we'd spoken about though. So
the VIP with the with the white flag probably is the.
S2 (51:57):
One that's that's not surrender, that's truce.
S3 (52:00):
Truce. And then the validate investigate, which is the critique,
not the criticism. And then you pick the solution. And
then you were talking about the structures. And then can
you just say that again?
S2 (52:15):
Sources. Competencies. Commitment. We've got a farm health check audit
that measures the gaps between what's actually happening and what
everyone feels should be happening. Now, to fix those gaps,
you improve your structures, your resources, your competencies, commitment. They're
the root causes.
S3 (52:33):
So if you had one piece of advice for listeners,
someone that's listening to this because they have a particular
incident or something in mind, what would the first piece
of advice be for them?
S2 (52:46):
Neville, take a deep breath.
S3 (52:49):
I thought you were going to say, sweetheart, that's a shame.
S2 (52:55):
Well, I will say is best of luck. Take a
deep breath. Usually we look at the ranking as far
as Stressor, like 100 out of 100 stressors is the
death of a child. For example, 80 out of 100
is jailed, been jailed, 60 out of 100 is moving house,
(53:18):
70th May be losing, being sacked from the job. So
the first step that we look at is where is
this on this ranking? Because I don't say to people,
just eyebrows up if it's tragic. Yeah. And life's a
contact sport. But most of what we get steamed up about,
and most of it is low level stuff that's been
built up over a long period of time can become chronic.
(53:40):
But the first step is take a deep breath. Second
step is saying, now what part am I contributing to this?
What can I fix really quickly and take responsibility for?
And then what better structures, resources, competencies, or commitment could
I put in place?
S3 (53:56):
Sounds good. Now, is there anything else you wanted to add, Neville?
S2 (54:00):
Yes. Just with the blokes out there. Our death rate
is twice that of women up to the age of 60.
Yet we access Medicare services 30% less than women. Dads.
It's okay. Let go the pen. You can never do
succession planning too early. We can do it when it's
(54:20):
too late and have a sense of humour. One day
we are all going to be dead. Enjoy some of
the fights that we're having and don't get stressed over
the small stuff. Have a chuckle and keep your eyebrows up.
S3 (54:41):
If you love the podcast and would like to show
your support, please rate us five stars. Wherever you listen
to your podcasts and share it with your friends. We'll
catch you again soon.
S1 (54:52):
BCG drives the prosperity of Australian farmers, communities and landscapes
through applied research, innovation and events. To find out more
about what we're up to, our team and events near you,
visit BCG. Warrego.
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