July 23, 2025 • 34 mins
What’s the Opposition’s plan for our financial future? After our recent conversation with Nicola Willis, we’re talking to Labour's Finance Spokesperson, Barbara Edmonds, about the policies that impact your pay packet and your opportunities.
Barbara talks about the challenges facing NZ households, the future of KiwiSaver, and what her economic plan would prioritise. Hear her concerns about replenishing the brain drain and our reliance on property as the path to wealth—and her optimism on the Māori economy, retail investing, and the opportunities AI presents for Aotearoa.
Barbara explains why she considers current cuts "blunt and cruel" and sees crypto as a serious consideration for lawmakers.
Plus, the mum-of-eight reveals how her own life experiences inform her policy.
For more or to watch on YouTube—check out http://linktr.ee/sharedlunch
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Kyoder and welcome to Shared Lunch, brought to you by Chairsa's.
My name's Sonia Williams, and I'm one of the co
founders and co CEOs at chairs EA's and we're on
a mission to create financial empowerment for everyone, which is
a big part of why we do these conversations. It's
a chance to pick behind the curtain of what's going
on in our world today. We're speaking to Labour's finance
(00:23):
spokesperson Barbara Edmonds.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
The politics is the hard stuff to be friend. Ultimately
you break it down. It's a Greek word. It's about people.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
So who is Barbara Edmonds?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I was brought up in a family that didn't have
much circumstances happened like my mom passed away when I
was four. Dad was a widower with four children under
the ages of eleven.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
What's your vision for the future of Malta.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
And that's a big question, I mean, and I know
it's a big question.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Before we get started, here's some important information.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Investing involves the risk you might lose the money you
start with. We reckon in talking to a licensed financial advisor.
We also recommend reading product disclosure documents before deciding to
invest everything you're about to see and here is current
at the time of recording.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Well, welcome Barbra, Thanksanks having here.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Ton of for lover. If you're quite honest, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Oh yeah, well we stoke that you're here. So well,
first we'll talk about you. You've experienced a lot in life.
You've dabbled in physiotherapy and insurance before completing joint law
and arts degrees. You're a parent of eight children, keep
me busy, and we're a public servant before becoming MP
(01:35):
of the Mana electorate in twenty twenty. Is there anything
else you'd like to add or well done?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Good good, good work, you know, staff for the researcher.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I mean I've had a varied life before coming into politics,
and if I'm really fair, actually having that varied life
and different experiences just makes you a bit more I think,
centered and grounded in what you want to achieve while
you're there here and now.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, now you are a politician. What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
The politics is the hard stuff to me, Frank, I
find that for me politics ultimately and this is the
geeker me you break it down. It's a Greek word.
It's about people. And if I look through a lot
of the commentary that I do, whether it's on a
podcast or whether it's a media interview, or it's in
the way that I do policy decisions, Ultimately I'm looking
(02:29):
through that sort of decision and thinking about what's the
impact on people, who are the winners, who are the losers,
where are the unintended consequences as part of that decision making.
So politics in some ways comes easier to me because
I always look through things about the people lens. But
at the same time, that's sort of debating adversarial side. Yeah,
(02:52):
I'm trying to hit my straps on.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
It because that's a big part of it too.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Oh yeah, it's massive. It's massive. And the great thing is,
for the most part in New Zealand, we don't take
it personally, where you know, we're having a debate of
ideas and having a debate of decisions as opposed to
attacking one another as politicians. I think if we can
keep it that way in New Zealand, then we're going
(03:16):
to be Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, that's great, and we you know, we're all for
creating empowerment and that's part of you know, part of
that is taking control of your financial future yourself. And
I think when it comes to politicians, and you know,
we live in a democracy, and so I think learning
you know from you, like, how do politicians shape the
lives of Kiwi?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Every way, every shape and form, every decision, whether it's
going to impact on a person straight away or whether
it's later on down the line, every decision that policy makers,
not just the politicians who are in government, but also
like for example, my role is opposition to highlight perhaps
where there's errors or where things need to be a
(03:59):
bit further, be pushed a bit further. We impact everyday lives,
just the differences though for those in the general public
they might not think that it affects their everyday lives,
but ultimately the money you get in your hand at
the end of the week, you know, with your pay packet,
that's been impacted by politicians' decisions.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, so what tools do you have to work with
to shape those decisions?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Some life experience. I was brought up in a family
that didn't have much and it was very much because
circumstances happened, like my mom passed away when I was four.
Dad was a widower with four children. Under the ages
of eleven at the age of forty, you know, and
Mum was thirty five when she died. So growing up
(04:46):
my father was an amazing man and loved my dad
even when he brings me at random times. Learnt that
sometimes money isn't necessarily an abundance, but you don't have
with money, you can have with time. So my father
taught me a whole thing a lot around community service. Because,
(05:08):
for example, my dad sent us to really great schools
on Awklands North Shore. They weren't cheap schools, they were integrated,
they were Catholic schools. My dad was paying off our
school fees for ten years after I had finished. He
had struck that deal with the school to pay off
the school fees because his wider purpose was making sure
that we had a good education despite what had happened
(05:30):
to mum passing away. But what my dad didn't have
in money, he gave in time. So he was that dad,
you know. Eventually on the board of trustees. He was
the father that the school went to when they were
having problems with Pacific families and children. My dad would
advise them on that. He's also the one driving the
school van going to pick up goods and stuff and
(05:53):
fruit and veggies from all the different suppliers to sell
at the school fair. So I learned really quickly that
sometimes money isn't everything because you don't have much, but
actually what you have in abundance of is your time
and being really purposeful with that time.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
And so when you think of what life's like for Kiwi, now, Howard,
what are you seeing around people in their financial situation?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Really tough? I am seeing coming through my office every
day in Pottydoer, so I have an electro office and
Pottydoer one of my two officers. I am hearing people
like I was at netball on Saturday and a couple
of people said to me, like they've never experienced it
this tough. It is really hard for a group of
(06:38):
people out there who are struggling that despite being working
or working or having one or two jobs, sometimes three,
that they're struggling just to make ends meet. So we've
just had recent inflation figures come out and you can
see where that problem is is because when inflation is
high on food, on rates, on insurance, on energy, those
(07:01):
are the core basics for what any family or any
person needs to live a life. So it's really really
tough out there.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
What do you think that we can be doing better?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
When I speak to businesses in particular, I'm asking them
to think about how they give back. A lot of
them know they work on a social license and a
lot of them are doing some great programs to support
community organizations. I believe as the role of government at
a time when the economic cycle is on a low,
(07:35):
so as the private sector pulls back, that's when the
public sector pushes forward. So that's the timing of investment
I think is really important right now. But we're seeing
a whole bunch of kiwis, you know, a planeload a
day leaving New Zealand because they think that the grass
is green, are somewhere else, And to be fair to them,
(07:56):
yes they will get better wages in Australia, but that's
not what we want. The concern for me is that
who is leaving and we're starting to see that it's
really that workforce is starting to move with their feet.
And my concern is that whenever labor decides to whenever
we win and we take over the books, is we're
going to have to rebuild some of that capability that
(08:18):
we are losing, particularly for example, in the infrastructure and
construction space, where there's been a huge loss of jobs
or roles. So it's a big piece of work that
we have to be mindful of. But also if we're
not connected to our communities, we have no idea as politicians,
and really we shouldn't be in that space if we're
not connected to the communities and the people that we're serving.
(08:41):
So the broad brush cut right across all agencies is
my view, not a prudent approach. When you're, for example,
a business and you know if times are tough and
you want to cut back spending, you don't necessarily cut
back across units. You think, actually, if I put a
(09:03):
bit more of my money in this unit, it means
I can produce a bit more goods because I know
that that element of my business is doing really well
or is returning better than what other elements of my
business are. So the broadbush just cut everything, I think
was very cruel. Where the government should focus on is one,
(09:27):
services to community. We know people are doing it tough,
so removing areas that make it easier for people to
either get to work, get their kids to school, make
them healthier, be being able to access prescription fees, etc.
Those are the areas that I would keep in if
I was the Minister of Finance, because I know that
it has a return to the community in which a
(09:49):
service area where I wouldn't have done though, is taken
money from one area and then put it in areas
where there is less productive activity, for example gas subsidies
or putting it through a tax break for tobacco companies
for e cigarettes. So cuts have not been great because
(10:14):
they've been quite blunt, they've been quite cruel, and they
haven't been considered because as much as the government has
said it's not going to cut back on frontline services,
that's so not what we're hearing. And when you see
their social issues such as growing homelessness, jobs being lost.
In the infrastructure specter a sector, those are the areas
(10:35):
that you want to keep investing in, which is continuing
to build houses, continuing to invest in infrastructure projects because
that has a longer first, longer term return, but second
it keeps the economy ticking over because there's certainty for
these big you know, multimillion dollar you know sometimes billion
dollar projects, which means that the money is still in
(10:55):
the economy from my perspective, the cuts have been cruel.
They haven't been considered enough. And if Labor comes in again,
it's about looking at everything on the table, not stopping
and starting infrastructure projects like we've seen in the last
eighteen months. And it's about our community, our services to community.
Where do we need to strengthen those areas in order
(11:17):
to able to have a more functioning society because everybody
is being looked after.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And so in your time in Parliament you're an advisor
and you've worked under both the National and the Labor Party,
so you've seen different views. And now you're not only
the Finance in Economy spokesposting for Labor, but you've now
taken on a new portfolio, savings and investing. Why was
that role created and can you tell us a bit
about that.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
It's really a good sign post for where our focuses
that we will take to the next election. Savings an investment.
We know that some of the best policies that that
has survived governments as they come and go. With some
of Labour's policies such as care we Saber the Superfund,
So for us we know with Kiwi Saber there is
(12:03):
some unfinished business. There are some areas that we want
to really look at in relation to how do we
increase the uptake of kei we saber, how do we
support both employers and employees to contribute a bit more.
Where is the iniquity in ki we saber? And it's
the same with investment again, being able to have income
that's of a sufficient level that you can actually choose
(12:26):
to invest. That's a really important part of what Labour
wants to offer in the next election.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
So we started chairs eas to try and create more
opportunities for key we to grow their wealth outside but
also alongside property. What's your view on how that's playing
out or how that plays out for people being able
to invest in different things.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Thank you as as a person who grew up thinking
that owning your own home is the only way to
wealth or working your way to wealth was the only way.
Thank you so much because it provides an opportunity for
and I'd say my children who actually have a Chezy's account,
for my children to do access something that doesn't isn't
(13:10):
just this big beast of a trading thing that happens
on Wall Street or you know, down the road here
in Wellington at our stock market. It gives choices and
that you don't just have to invest in land. You know,
when I speak to the index, I speak to the
indid X, they talk about the returns through equities as
(13:30):
just as the returns are just as good as land
return but it's not that accessible. And so Chezy's has
definitely opened up the opportunity for anybody and everybody to
be able to access a market which probably traditionally was
inaccessible to everybody. So yeah, huge he to you all
(13:52):
for that.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Thank you. How do you see kind of money flowing
into those businesses?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
It's so important because it all so there's an issue
with New Zealand and the way that we invest in
land and that there is an it's almost an automatic
like land is going to give you the return. But
as a result, it means that our economy is very
much based off people investing in what is a less
(14:18):
productive part of the economy, whereas if we're investing in
shares or in equities or in you know, basically the
capital that businesses will be able to access because people
are backing them, it means they can grow more jobs,
they can do more things, they can create more widgets
or innovate more so that they call it. There's a
(14:41):
technical word for it, but basically that turning of the
mind to thinking I don't just have to invest in land.
I can have another option to invest and it's easy
to invest in that. That is a great mindset for
New Zealand future investors will investors now to have and
it's a mindset that through a platform like Chasis, all
(15:03):
through platforms that allow for crowdsourcing or crowdfunding, it allows
people to have easier access to it.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
And so you've already been the Minister for Economic Development
and Associate Minister of Finance, but not for long though.
Did you feel like you got enough time to sink
your teeth into it?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, definitely not want to do so. I was a
minister my first term, so I got it in twenty
twenty and then in twenty twenty three, just under our
durn step down and Chris Hipkins was nominated through our
party to be the leader, he came Prime Minister. I
was a minister for ten months. So within that ten
months I had nine portfolios, so drop some, pick some up,
(15:42):
you know, and then others I carried through. Definitely not
enough time at that stage of an electoral cycle. Your
job there is just to make sure that the pathways
that has been decided probably about eighteen months beforehand is
you know, continuing. So not enough time and I'm hoping
the next time I get it and We'll have plenty
of time to do the things that I want to do.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, so you are in the running to be the
Finance minister at the next election. What would a Barbara
Edmunds economic plan look like?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
And Barbara Edmunds economic plan would probably look at some
key sectors in the economy, think about where is New
Zealand's competitive advantage. If it requires us putting something on
a boat or on a plane, then we've lost that
advantage given where we are geographically. And there's been a
lot of commentary around why New Zealand's productivity is low.
(16:34):
And my very first speech as the Finance spokesperson seems
like ages ago, but it was just last year. Beginning
of last year, I talked about productivity will be our focus,
not just on the productive side, thinking where are our
competitive advantage areas, but also we know energy is huge.
Energy is basically underpins any of that productive sector. We
(16:57):
don't have sufficient supply of energy, then we get what's
happened in the last year with factories closing down. The
other major focus for me is the human capability of that.
What are the skill sets that we need for jobs
of now, for jobs of the future, and what's coming
towards us, whether it's AI, whether it's other technology changes,
(17:19):
whether it's geopolitical changes. That ensures that we have a
workforce that is able to build, develop and create the
society we want to thrive here in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Well, when you talk about competitive advantage of New Zealand,
you know, what are the things that are popping up
for you?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Renewable energy. We clearly have high sources of renewable energy.
There's still a percentage there that will need to work
through and the transition through that. There's also the really
great thing about New Zealand and I believe it's our
superpower to the world and that's our marty economy. The
fact that our MARDI businesses here in New Zealand is
(17:57):
the fastest growing sector. I think we need to unlock
some of the issues there to allow them to access
their asset base. So, for example, to today, Fenoa is
an area that we're keeping a close eye where the
government looks too to be able to unlock Mardi Land
so it can be used to its potential. The other
major issue, and which is why I'm so glad that
(18:18):
Chippy made it or Chris Sipkins made it a portfolio,
is the creative economy. The creative economy is not just
the things that make us feel good and the social
cohesion benefits that come with that. It's also the things
that Keywis are so good about good at doing, which
is the dreaming and then the innovating to develop it,
(18:38):
to make it a thing, to be able to make
things easier for us. So the creative economy does include AI,
It does include research and development, it does include science
and innovation. But then it also includes the gaming sector,
which we've seen you through a little bit of support
previously in twenty twenty three, they have grown into quite
a competitive sector. So those are some of the key
(19:00):
competitive advantages that we're actively looking at for policies in
those spaces.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
And then on AI, like, what are you saying as
some of the opportunities for alto are in that.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I don't know about. Most people buy use AI every day,
and when you're in opposition and you have low resources.
AI is a great tool because it's always like another
person that's helping you formulate the structure of ideas. And
then you do need the human element to make sure
that it's been quality reviewed, that it's you know, the
references that it brings up are actually accurate or not.
(19:32):
And so you do need to have that human at
the end of that assessment period. But AI has huge
opportunities for us both here, I mean in countries around
the world. Corporates are already using it. It's about making
sure that we bring everyone on that AI journey because
we already have a digital divide here in New Zealand.
And if you haven't spoken to edit or La f Aili,
(19:55):
she is New Zealander Young New Zealander of the Year.
She's been working in the last couple of year years
around trying to bring together that digital divide, particularly for
Pacific people. But we have a large group of people
who are being left behind on the digital space. We
need to bring them with it, and we also need
to bring AI with it. It also provides us an
opportunity to think about what are the jobs of the future.
(20:17):
As AI starts to. You know, some people will say,
we'll start to take some jobs. I'm thinking about if
I was a law graduate, you know, whether I'd still
have a job. But we have to think about what
actually a law graduate might not have to do all
the research that's involved in the due diligence, but actually
the law graduates their job now is to do the
quality assurance from it. So it does. There is definite
(20:41):
opportunities in AI, but we need to make sure that
everybody has access to those opportunities too.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Another on the technical side, we see crypto, you know,
obviously being talked about a lot. How does that affect
your future thinking or do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
No matter how I personally feel about crypto or how
other people may be personally feel about crypto, it's here
and I think, you know, I've had a lot of
conversations over the last couple of years, and there's a
lot of skepticism around cryptocurrencies from sort of more traditional areas.
The thing that makes me wake up though, to the
(21:16):
role of cryptocurrency is that we have the president of
the first world talking about cryptocurrency and whether that's for
their benefit or not, and also putting it through legislation
in their legislature in America, but also in trade deals
there is references to crypto currency. I think there needs
(21:39):
to be a greater understanding that Yes, okay, if you
believe it's speculatory, that's that's your gig. But don't let
that be a barrier to understanding crypto and what are
the regulatory settings for crypto because I think of lawmakers
just push it aside as that's just a speculator. While
(22:01):
back in the late eighteen hundreds, so was land was speculatory,
so was shares speculatory. You know, there's always a speculative
market for investment in assets. But ultimately, as decision makers,
you need to probably take a serious look that if
the president of the first world is taking it seriously,
then our settings right here in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, So keeping an eye to the future, you know,
we are here to help people set themselves up for
there now but also their future retirement features in a
lot of what we're helping people on the journey too.
You've been quite vocal about the changes on the Kei
saver and the budget. What are your thoughts on raising
the minimum contribution and the employer contribution.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
We are for raising the contribution by both employers and employees.
But what you need to do, as you've seen it,
as we've seen in Australia, is it needs to be
a very clear pathway and not all at once. And
I'm really mindful that right now it is tough for
both employers and employees to be able to save for
their retirement. So when we come out with our que
(23:09):
We Saber policy as we go to the election, it'll
be quite clearly flagging as to Okay, we do believe
contributions need to go up and we think perhaps that
this is the best way forward by this time, by
this amount over this period. But it's quite clear what
we've learned from Australia is having it clearly signposted. It
(23:29):
means that everybody has a bit of certainty and a
bit of planning that they can do both as a
business and both as an employee. Because most people or
some people will know, I'm a late comer to q
We Saver, I'm a late comer to ki We Saver
because we just didn't have the money to invest in
my savings for retirement. And the reason being is because
(23:50):
we want a security of tenure of a house. So
for us, the ability to buy our first home was
more important than saving for the retirement position as a family,
And I say as a family, for me to be
able to start saving for that retirement, but I will
also have a home. And for a lot of people,
that ability to have savings plus a home is diminishing
(24:14):
over time because home ownership rates are diminishing over time.
So I think being really clear when you go to
do your personal savings or investment is what is it for?
There are no quick shortcuts to this. There's a long
term purpose to it and being able to make sure
that you keep checking in like is this the investment
(24:35):
that I want? And is this give me the returns
that I want? And does this meet the initial purpose
as to why I invested in this asset.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
With your Kei Savor, you can withdraw for your first home.
And you talked about, you know, whether your decision was
is it for my retirement? Is it for a home?
You know what what's your view on that?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
So I think that's important that qwis be able to
access it to get their first time or to help
contribute towards their first home. I have been in ke
we save long enough to be able to build up
an amount that's actually going to be able to be
contributed to them buying their first home. Ultimately, that's a
policy which we've kept in since you know, came in
(25:13):
under a previous government. We've kept it going as well.
Where my concern would be is that if you start
to open up for first home withdrawals, if you start
to open it up for other things, So for example,
if they start to open it up for business purposes,
you know, or to buy a farm, those of that
(25:34):
starts to take away from what q we Saver was
intended to be the first home. For example, again, the
Retirement Commissioner did a review in twenty twenty two which
showed that people's home ownership rates are starting to reduce.
When I think about my retirement, I've got a home,
I've got q WE Savor probably would probably do a
(25:55):
couple more investments, you know, to be a bit more
to make sure I've just got enough enough for it.
But ultimately that ability to buy your first time is
really important because it can be part of your fuller
retirement savings package.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
We are keep we Save a provider, and we did
some research around people and contributions. And I think you know,
what you said completely lines up to what we saw
as well that people were happy to was seventy eight
percent actually said that they were support are raising contributions
from their day to day you know, money they're taking
home now for that future. And you've already talked about
(26:31):
time through this, and I think money and time there
is that relationship there where even if you start small
or with small amounts, over time, time is your friend
when it comes to money as well.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yeah, especially for retirement.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, totally. So what's your current read on how key
we save is going for New Zealanders?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Could be better, absolutely could be better, But I'm also
very cognizant we're in a downturn at the moment and
it is hard on people. And like I said, like
I am a later adopted, we save because I knew
how hard it was. You know, we had eight dollars
in the hand after everything was paid for, and if
it meant that we could actually buy our first time
and say for our first time, that was the priority
(27:11):
because we needed that security of tenure. So I totally
understand why it's hard for people to save. But ultimately,
as governments, if we can clearly signpost when increases may
happen and over a certain period of time. It gives
people time to prepare. It also gives governments time to
(27:32):
think about, Okay, the Reserve Bank, the Treasury have forecasted
this for the next forecast period, when is the right
time to actually start implementing those increases and by how much?
You know, it could be zero point five, it could
be a percent, or you could do what Australia did
in sort of over a ten year period it started
(27:52):
to increase considerably. The other element that we are very
cognizant of, particularly in the labor party, is that ke
we saver is starting to become a part of a
total rem package remuneration package. So if we're going to
be increasing employer contributions, ultimately that's actually coming out of
the pay of the employee. So they're say, for example,
(28:14):
just hypothetically it's at four percent, which it is for
some some may choose three percent. If we say, are
we going to increase it to five percent next year, well,
actually some employees that's ultimately ten percent, because the way
that their contract has been written is they're actually contributing
it as part of their pay. So those are some
of the other elements that we need to consider as well.
(28:37):
What's the interplay between total remuneration packages. Can we say
contribution increases the period in which we look to increase it,
but then also the element of who's missing out and why,
like the over sixty five year olds because they don't
you know, the employer might not have to contribute. What
about the mothers who've had to go on maternity You know,
(29:00):
there are some really amazing employers who actually continue can
contribute while they're on maternity leave. So those are the
elements we need to look at as those equity elements
as well.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
And we've talked about that the Australian contributions into their
super and I think it's sitting in around twelve or
over twelve percent at the moment. And what's your view
on how we may look to like do you have
figures in your mind and we see our contribution rates
needing to get to to support people in their retirement.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Everybody will need a different amount right for their retirement
depending on the lifestyle that they want to live when
they eventually decide to finish work or finish their business
or being a business owner. Some of the major benefits
for Australia not just some of their higher retirement savings.
It's actually it's created a deep pool of capital that
can be accessed for other areas within the Australian economy.
(29:54):
So for us as coming into the way that we
think about this policy is if we grow deeper pools
of funds or capital within the country, whether that's through
key WE Saver or you know, thank goodness for Sir
Michael Cullen and Helen Clark for the super fund. That
means that there's a bit more money in there to
be able to invest in areas that we need to
(30:15):
be invested in. It also gives governments different leavers as
well to be able to push and pool on ultimately
greater savings. Is New Zealand is good for us. So
with whether it's key WE say, where it's super funds,
where it's a sec whether it's key WE Saber providers
in the funds that they hold as well, that's all
makes it a better thing for New Zealand. It's just
(30:37):
a question of how much more do we need.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Can you envisage a future where superannuation is means tested.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I'm not under my watch and I really I say that,
you know, quite in a relaxed way, but also in
a way that I am an evidence and data person
and when I read the information from the retirement commissioner
commissioner around means testing, there's going to be a line
(31:06):
in the sand that's gonna hurt someone. So we need
to look at the retirement settings as a whole, not
just at income testing and not just at increasing the age,
but how do we increase can we save savings? How
do we ensure that the super fund is working as
it's intended to and actually it isn't working as intended
to because it's actually getting great returns and number one
(31:27):
in the world for pension funds. But making sure we
look at the full retirement system and that includes the
family home because most people if they buy the you know,
I think about a lot of the pensions. I know
in my area, they have their family home. When they
need to go to a retirement village, they sail down
that house and they move into a retirement village. So
(31:47):
the retirement village setting as well as part of that
whole retirement scheme and settings in New Zealand, So look
at it as a whole not just as different elements
of it, because they all work together very carefully, and
if you pull in one place then there could be
unintended consequences somewhere else. So it's a conversation that we
need to have more generally and more about open about
(32:09):
not just in come testing, not just about raising the age,
but about the whole settings for retirement in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
So what's your vision for the future of are.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
That's a big question. I mean, and I know it's
a big question. And I hear that every time I
have like a business dinner or a lunch or where
I get to spend time with some amazing businesses that
we in quy companies you have in New Zealand. Is
that you know what's the vision, and my vision will
be different to your vision. But ultimately, again if I
(32:40):
go back to where my first principles laid, it's a
New Zealand where there's an opportunity for everybody. That's why
I got into politics because I realized in my community
there were opportunities that my children had that other children
didn't have. So making sure there is opportunities, making sure
that you can if you want to live here, man,
that you can have your own home, or that you
(33:01):
have a security of tenure that you don't feel like
you're going to be kicked out the next week, where
you can lay down your routs in a community that
you choose, that where you want to send your kids to,
where you want to be able to access healthcare. So
it's a big question and for me, I can't yet
quite articulate what the vision is for New Zealand, but
(33:22):
I think about it as opportunities. This is an amazing country.
We have some amazing people doing such awesome things. But
it's just making sure that everybody has an opportunity, whether
you're the factory cleaner on the factory floor or whether
you're the retiree that wants to just see their grandchildren
come visit them. That's the New Zealand I remember growing
(33:45):
up and where everybody had a chance, and that's the
New Zealand, which when we come to the election, we
want to make sure that everybody has that opportunity as
well to be who they want to be and to
be able to build their roots, grow their community and
be that special place at the bottom of the world
where we know that everybody wants to move to when
(34:05):
things go bad, but also hold dear to us what
makes us New Zealanders.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Thanks Haanks for joining us, Barbara, we've covered a lot
of ground.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, lots always a good space though.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, and thanks everyone for tuning in. You can watch
she Ad Lunch on YouTube or follow along on your
favorite podcast app. Leave us a rating or comment about
what you'd like to hear about next Khaki Deck
Kyoder and welcome to Shared Lunch, brought to you by Chairsa's.
My name's Sonia Williams, and I'm one of the co
founders and co CEOs at chairs EA's and we're on
a mission to create financial empowerment for everyone, which is
a big part of why we do these conversations. It's
a chance to pick behind the curtain of what's going
on in our world today. We're speaking to Labour's finance
(00:23):
spokesperson Barbara Edmonds.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
The politics is the hard stuff to be friend. Ultimately
you break it down. It's a Greek word. It's about people.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
So who is Barbara Edmonds?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I was brought up in a family that didn't have
much circumstances happened like my mom passed away when I
was four. Dad was a widower with four children under
the ages of eleven.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
What's your vision for the future of Malta.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
And that's a big question, I mean, and I know
it's a big question.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Before we get started, here's some important information.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Investing involves the risk you might lose the money you
start with. We reckon in talking to a licensed financial advisor.
We also recommend reading product disclosure documents before deciding to
invest everything you're about to see and here is current
at the time of recording.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Well, welcome Barbra, Thanksanks having here.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Ton of for lover. If you're quite honest, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Oh yeah, well we stoke that you're here. So well,
first we'll talk about you. You've experienced a lot in life.
You've dabbled in physiotherapy and insurance before completing joint law
and arts degrees. You're a parent of eight children, keep
me busy, and we're a public servant before becoming MP
(01:35):
of the Mana electorate in twenty twenty. Is there anything
else you'd like to add or well done?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Good good, good work, you know, staff for the researcher.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I mean I've had a varied life before coming into politics,
and if I'm really fair, actually having that varied life
and different experiences just makes you a bit more I think,
centered and grounded in what you want to achieve while
you're there here and now.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, now you are a politician. What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
The politics is the hard stuff to me, Frank, I
find that for me politics ultimately and this is the
geeker me you break it down. It's a Greek word.
It's about people. And if I look through a lot
of the commentary that I do, whether it's on a
podcast or whether it's a media interview, or it's in
the way that I do policy decisions, Ultimately I'm looking
(02:29):
through that sort of decision and thinking about what's the
impact on people, who are the winners, who are the losers,
where are the unintended consequences as part of that decision making.
So politics in some ways comes easier to me because
I always look through things about the people lens. But
at the same time, that's sort of debating adversarial side. Yeah,
(02:52):
I'm trying to hit my straps on.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
It because that's a big part of it too.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Oh yeah, it's massive. It's massive. And the great thing is,
for the most part in New Zealand, we don't take
it personally, where you know, we're having a debate of
ideas and having a debate of decisions as opposed to
attacking one another as politicians. I think if we can
keep it that way in New Zealand, then we're going
(03:16):
to be Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, that's great, and we you know, we're all for
creating empowerment and that's part of you know, part of
that is taking control of your financial future yourself. And
I think when it comes to politicians, and you know,
we live in a democracy, and so I think learning
you know from you, like, how do politicians shape the
lives of Kiwi?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Every way, every shape and form, every decision, whether it's
going to impact on a person straight away or whether
it's later on down the line, every decision that policy makers,
not just the politicians who are in government, but also
like for example, my role is opposition to highlight perhaps
where there's errors or where things need to be a
(03:59):
bit further, be pushed a bit further. We impact everyday lives,
just the differences though for those in the general public
they might not think that it affects their everyday lives,
but ultimately the money you get in your hand at
the end of the week, you know, with your pay packet,
that's been impacted by politicians' decisions.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, so what tools do you have to work with
to shape those decisions?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Some life experience. I was brought up in a family
that didn't have much and it was very much because
circumstances happened, like my mom passed away when I was four.
Dad was a widower with four children. Under the ages
of eleven at the age of forty, you know, and
Mum was thirty five when she died. So growing up
(04:46):
my father was an amazing man and loved my dad
even when he brings me at random times. Learnt that
sometimes money isn't necessarily an abundance, but you don't have
with money, you can have with time. So my father
taught me a whole thing a lot around community service. Because,
(05:08):
for example, my dad sent us to really great schools
on Awklands North Shore. They weren't cheap schools, they were integrated,
they were Catholic schools. My dad was paying off our
school fees for ten years after I had finished. He
had struck that deal with the school to pay off
the school fees because his wider purpose was making sure
that we had a good education despite what had happened
(05:30):
to mum passing away. But what my dad didn't have
in money, he gave in time. So he was that dad,
you know. Eventually on the board of trustees. He was
the father that the school went to when they were
having problems with Pacific families and children. My dad would
advise them on that. He's also the one driving the
school van going to pick up goods and stuff and
(05:53):
fruit and veggies from all the different suppliers to sell
at the school fair. So I learned really quickly that
sometimes money isn't everything because you don't have much, but
actually what you have in abundance of is your time
and being really purposeful with that time.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
And so when you think of what life's like for Kiwi, now, Howard,
what are you seeing around people in their financial situation?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Really tough? I am seeing coming through my office every
day in Pottydoer, so I have an electro office and
Pottydoer one of my two officers. I am hearing people
like I was at netball on Saturday and a couple
of people said to me, like they've never experienced it
this tough. It is really hard for a group of
(06:38):
people out there who are struggling that despite being working
or working or having one or two jobs, sometimes three,
that they're struggling just to make ends meet. So we've
just had recent inflation figures come out and you can
see where that problem is is because when inflation is
high on food, on rates, on insurance, on energy, those
(07:01):
are the core basics for what any family or any
person needs to live a life. So it's really really
tough out there.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
What do you think that we can be doing better?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
When I speak to businesses in particular, I'm asking them
to think about how they give back. A lot of
them know they work on a social license and a
lot of them are doing some great programs to support
community organizations. I believe as the role of government at
a time when the economic cycle is on a low,
(07:35):
so as the private sector pulls back, that's when the
public sector pushes forward. So that's the timing of investment
I think is really important right now. But we're seeing
a whole bunch of kiwis, you know, a planeload a
day leaving New Zealand because they think that the grass
is green, are somewhere else, And to be fair to them,
(07:56):
yes they will get better wages in Australia, but that's
not what we want. The concern for me is that
who is leaving and we're starting to see that it's
really that workforce is starting to move with their feet.
And my concern is that whenever labor decides to whenever
we win and we take over the books, is we're
going to have to rebuild some of that capability that
(08:18):
we are losing, particularly for example, in the infrastructure and
construction space, where there's been a huge loss of jobs
or roles. So it's a big piece of work that
we have to be mindful of. But also if we're
not connected to our communities, we have no idea as politicians,
and really we shouldn't be in that space if we're
not connected to the communities and the people that we're serving.
(08:41):
So the broad brush cut right across all agencies is
my view, not a prudent approach. When you're, for example,
a business and you know if times are tough and
you want to cut back spending, you don't necessarily cut
back across units. You think, actually, if I put a
(09:03):
bit more of my money in this unit, it means
I can produce a bit more goods because I know
that that element of my business is doing really well
or is returning better than what other elements of my
business are. So the broadbush just cut everything, I think
was very cruel. Where the government should focus on is one,
(09:27):
services to community. We know people are doing it tough,
so removing areas that make it easier for people to
either get to work, get their kids to school, make
them healthier, be being able to access prescription fees, etc.
Those are the areas that I would keep in if
I was the Minister of Finance, because I know that
it has a return to the community in which a
(09:49):
service area where I wouldn't have done though, is taken
money from one area and then put it in areas
where there is less productive activity, for example gas subsidies
or putting it through a tax break for tobacco companies
for e cigarettes. So cuts have not been great because
(10:14):
they've been quite blunt, they've been quite cruel, and they
haven't been considered because as much as the government has
said it's not going to cut back on frontline services,
that's so not what we're hearing. And when you see
their social issues such as growing homelessness, jobs being lost.
In the infrastructure specter a sector, those are the areas
(10:35):
that you want to keep investing in, which is continuing
to build houses, continuing to invest in infrastructure projects because
that has a longer first, longer term return, but second
it keeps the economy ticking over because there's certainty for
these big you know, multimillion dollar you know sometimes billion
dollar projects, which means that the money is still in
(10:55):
the economy from my perspective, the cuts have been cruel.
They haven't been considered enough. And if Labor comes in again,
it's about looking at everything on the table, not stopping
and starting infrastructure projects like we've seen in the last
eighteen months. And it's about our community, our services to community.
Where do we need to strengthen those areas in order
(11:17):
to able to have a more functioning society because everybody
is being looked after.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And so in your time in Parliament you're an advisor
and you've worked under both the National and the Labor Party,
so you've seen different views. And now you're not only
the Finance in Economy spokesposting for Labor, but you've now
taken on a new portfolio, savings and investing. Why was
that role created and can you tell us a bit
about that.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
It's really a good sign post for where our focuses
that we will take to the next election. Savings an investment.
We know that some of the best policies that that
has survived governments as they come and go. With some
of Labour's policies such as care we Saber the Superfund,
So for us we know with Kiwi Saber there is
(12:03):
some unfinished business. There are some areas that we want
to really look at in relation to how do we
increase the uptake of kei we saber, how do we
support both employers and employees to contribute a bit more.
Where is the iniquity in ki we saber? And it's
the same with investment again, being able to have income
that's of a sufficient level that you can actually choose
(12:26):
to invest. That's a really important part of what Labour
wants to offer in the next election.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
So we started chairs eas to try and create more
opportunities for key we to grow their wealth outside but
also alongside property. What's your view on how that's playing
out or how that plays out for people being able
to invest in different things.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Thank you as as a person who grew up thinking
that owning your own home is the only way to
wealth or working your way to wealth was the only way.
Thank you so much because it provides an opportunity for
and I'd say my children who actually have a Chezy's account,
for my children to do access something that doesn't isn't
(13:10):
just this big beast of a trading thing that happens
on Wall Street or you know, down the road here
in Wellington at our stock market. It gives choices and
that you don't just have to invest in land. You know,
when I speak to the index, I speak to the
indid X, they talk about the returns through equities as
(13:30):
just as the returns are just as good as land
return but it's not that accessible. And so Chezy's has
definitely opened up the opportunity for anybody and everybody to
be able to access a market which probably traditionally was
inaccessible to everybody. So yeah, huge he to you all
(13:52):
for that.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Thank you. How do you see kind of money flowing
into those businesses?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
It's so important because it all so there's an issue
with New Zealand and the way that we invest in
land and that there is an it's almost an automatic
like land is going to give you the return. But
as a result, it means that our economy is very
much based off people investing in what is a less
(14:18):
productive part of the economy, whereas if we're investing in
shares or in equities or in you know, basically the
capital that businesses will be able to access because people
are backing them, it means they can grow more jobs,
they can do more things, they can create more widgets
or innovate more so that they call it. There's a
(14:41):
technical word for it, but basically that turning of the
mind to thinking I don't just have to invest in land.
I can have another option to invest and it's easy
to invest in that. That is a great mindset for
New Zealand future investors will investors now to have and
it's a mindset that through a platform like Chasis, all
(15:03):
through platforms that allow for crowdsourcing or crowdfunding, it allows
people to have easier access to it.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
And so you've already been the Minister for Economic Development
and Associate Minister of Finance, but not for long though.
Did you feel like you got enough time to sink
your teeth into it?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, definitely not want to do so. I was a
minister my first term, so I got it in twenty
twenty and then in twenty twenty three, just under our
durn step down and Chris Hipkins was nominated through our
party to be the leader, he came Prime Minister. I
was a minister for ten months. So within that ten
months I had nine portfolios, so drop some, pick some up,
(15:42):
you know, and then others I carried through. Definitely not
enough time at that stage of an electoral cycle. Your
job there is just to make sure that the pathways
that has been decided probably about eighteen months beforehand is
you know, continuing. So not enough time and I'm hoping
the next time I get it and We'll have plenty
of time to do the things that I want to do.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, so you are in the running to be the
Finance minister at the next election. What would a Barbara
Edmunds economic plan look like?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
And Barbara Edmunds economic plan would probably look at some
key sectors in the economy, think about where is New
Zealand's competitive advantage. If it requires us putting something on
a boat or on a plane, then we've lost that
advantage given where we are geographically. And there's been a
lot of commentary around why New Zealand's productivity is low.
(16:34):
And my very first speech as the Finance spokesperson seems
like ages ago, but it was just last year. Beginning
of last year, I talked about productivity will be our focus,
not just on the productive side, thinking where are our
competitive advantage areas, but also we know energy is huge.
Energy is basically underpins any of that productive sector. We
(16:57):
don't have sufficient supply of energy, then we get what's
happened in the last year with factories closing down. The
other major focus for me is the human capability of that.
What are the skill sets that we need for jobs
of now, for jobs of the future, and what's coming
towards us, whether it's AI, whether it's other technology changes,
(17:19):
whether it's geopolitical changes. That ensures that we have a
workforce that is able to build, develop and create the
society we want to thrive here in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Well, when you talk about competitive advantage of New Zealand,
you know, what are the things that are popping up
for you?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Renewable energy. We clearly have high sources of renewable energy.
There's still a percentage there that will need to work
through and the transition through that. There's also the really
great thing about New Zealand and I believe it's our
superpower to the world and that's our marty economy. The
fact that our MARDI businesses here in New Zealand is
(17:57):
the fastest growing sector. I think we need to unlock
some of the issues there to allow them to access
their asset base. So, for example, to today, Fenoa is
an area that we're keeping a close eye where the
government looks too to be able to unlock Mardi Land
so it can be used to its potential. The other
major issue, and which is why I'm so glad that
(18:18):
Chippy made it or Chris Sipkins made it a portfolio,
is the creative economy. The creative economy is not just
the things that make us feel good and the social
cohesion benefits that come with that. It's also the things
that Keywis are so good about good at doing, which
is the dreaming and then the innovating to develop it,
(18:38):
to make it a thing, to be able to make
things easier for us. So the creative economy does include AI,
It does include research and development, it does include science
and innovation. But then it also includes the gaming sector,
which we've seen you through a little bit of support
previously in twenty twenty three, they have grown into quite
a competitive sector. So those are some of the key
(19:00):
competitive advantages that we're actively looking at for policies in
those spaces.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
And then on AI, like, what are you saying as
some of the opportunities for alto are in that.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I don't know about. Most people buy use AI every day,
and when you're in opposition and you have low resources.
AI is a great tool because it's always like another
person that's helping you formulate the structure of ideas. And
then you do need the human element to make sure
that it's been quality reviewed, that it's you know, the
references that it brings up are actually accurate or not.
(19:32):
And so you do need to have that human at
the end of that assessment period. But AI has huge
opportunities for us both here, I mean in countries around
the world. Corporates are already using it. It's about making
sure that we bring everyone on that AI journey because
we already have a digital divide here in New Zealand.
And if you haven't spoken to edit or La f Aili,
(19:55):
she is New Zealander Young New Zealander of the Year.
She's been working in the last couple of year years
around trying to bring together that digital divide, particularly for
Pacific people. But we have a large group of people
who are being left behind on the digital space. We
need to bring them with it, and we also need
to bring AI with it. It also provides us an
opportunity to think about what are the jobs of the future.
(20:17):
As AI starts to. You know, some people will say,
we'll start to take some jobs. I'm thinking about if
I was a law graduate, you know, whether I'd still
have a job. But we have to think about what
actually a law graduate might not have to do all
the research that's involved in the due diligence, but actually
the law graduates their job now is to do the
quality assurance from it. So it does. There is definite
(20:41):
opportunities in AI, but we need to make sure that
everybody has access to those opportunities too.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Another on the technical side, we see crypto, you know,
obviously being talked about a lot. How does that affect
your future thinking or do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
No matter how I personally feel about crypto or how
other people may be personally feel about crypto, it's here
and I think, you know, I've had a lot of
conversations over the last couple of years, and there's a
lot of skepticism around cryptocurrencies from sort of more traditional areas.
The thing that makes me wake up though, to the
(21:16):
role of cryptocurrency is that we have the president of
the first world talking about cryptocurrency and whether that's for
their benefit or not, and also putting it through legislation
in their legislature in America, but also in trade deals
there is references to crypto currency. I think there needs
(21:39):
to be a greater understanding that Yes, okay, if you
believe it's speculatory, that's that's your gig. But don't let
that be a barrier to understanding crypto and what are
the regulatory settings for crypto because I think of lawmakers
just push it aside as that's just a speculator. While
(22:01):
back in the late eighteen hundreds, so was land was speculatory,
so was shares speculatory. You know, there's always a speculative
market for investment in assets. But ultimately, as decision makers,
you need to probably take a serious look that if
the president of the first world is taking it seriously,
then our settings right here in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, So keeping an eye to the future, you know,
we are here to help people set themselves up for
there now but also their future retirement features in a
lot of what we're helping people on the journey too.
You've been quite vocal about the changes on the Kei
saver and the budget. What are your thoughts on raising
the minimum contribution and the employer contribution.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
We are for raising the contribution by both employers and employees.
But what you need to do, as you've seen it,
as we've seen in Australia, is it needs to be
a very clear pathway and not all at once. And
I'm really mindful that right now it is tough for
both employers and employees to be able to save for
their retirement. So when we come out with our que
(23:09):
We Saber policy as we go to the election, it'll
be quite clearly flagging as to Okay, we do believe
contributions need to go up and we think perhaps that
this is the best way forward by this time, by
this amount over this period. But it's quite clear what
we've learned from Australia is having it clearly signposted. It
(23:29):
means that everybody has a bit of certainty and a
bit of planning that they can do both as a
business and both as an employee. Because most people or
some people will know, I'm a late comer to q
We Saver, I'm a late comer to ki We Saver
because we just didn't have the money to invest in
my savings for retirement. And the reason being is because
(23:50):
we want a security of tenure of a house. So
for us, the ability to buy our first home was
more important than saving for the retirement position as a family,
And I say as a family, for me to be
able to start saving for that retirement, but I will
also have a home. And for a lot of people,
that ability to have savings plus a home is diminishing
(24:14):
over time because home ownership rates are diminishing over time.
So I think being really clear when you go to
do your personal savings or investment is what is it for?
There are no quick shortcuts to this. There's a long
term purpose to it and being able to make sure
that you keep checking in like is this the investment
(24:35):
that I want? And is this give me the returns
that I want? And does this meet the initial purpose
as to why I invested in this asset.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
With your Kei Savor, you can withdraw for your first home.
And you talked about, you know, whether your decision was
is it for my retirement? Is it for a home?
You know what what's your view on that?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
So I think that's important that qwis be able to
access it to get their first time or to help
contribute towards their first home. I have been in ke
we save long enough to be able to build up
an amount that's actually going to be able to be
contributed to them buying their first home. Ultimately, that's a
policy which we've kept in since you know, came in
(25:13):
under a previous government. We've kept it going as well.
Where my concern would be is that if you start
to open up for first home withdrawals, if you start
to open it up for other things, So for example,
if they start to open it up for business purposes,
you know, or to buy a farm, those of that
(25:34):
starts to take away from what q we Saver was
intended to be the first home. For example, again, the
Retirement Commissioner did a review in twenty twenty two which
showed that people's home ownership rates are starting to reduce.
When I think about my retirement, I've got a home,
I've got q WE Savor probably would probably do a
(25:55):
couple more investments, you know, to be a bit more
to make sure I've just got enough enough for it.
But ultimately that ability to buy your first time is
really important because it can be part of your fuller
retirement savings package.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
We are keep we Save a provider, and we did
some research around people and contributions. And I think you know,
what you said completely lines up to what we saw
as well that people were happy to was seventy eight
percent actually said that they were support are raising contributions
from their day to day you know, money they're taking
home now for that future. And you've already talked about
(26:31):
time through this, and I think money and time there
is that relationship there where even if you start small
or with small amounts, over time, time is your friend
when it comes to money as well.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yeah, especially for retirement.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, totally. So what's your current read on how key
we save is going for New Zealanders?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Could be better, absolutely could be better, But I'm also
very cognizant we're in a downturn at the moment and
it is hard on people. And like I said, like
I am a later adopted, we save because I knew
how hard it was. You know, we had eight dollars
in the hand after everything was paid for, and if
it meant that we could actually buy our first time
and say for our first time, that was the priority
(27:11):
because we needed that security of tenure. So I totally
understand why it's hard for people to save. But ultimately,
as governments, if we can clearly signpost when increases may
happen and over a certain period of time. It gives
people time to prepare. It also gives governments time to
(27:32):
think about, Okay, the Reserve Bank, the Treasury have forecasted
this for the next forecast period, when is the right
time to actually start implementing those increases and by how much?
You know, it could be zero point five, it could
be a percent, or you could do what Australia did
in sort of over a ten year period it started
(27:52):
to increase considerably. The other element that we are very
cognizant of, particularly in the labor party, is that ke
we saver is starting to become a part of a
total rem package remuneration package. So if we're going to
be increasing employer contributions, ultimately that's actually coming out of
the pay of the employee. So they're say, for example,
(28:14):
just hypothetically it's at four percent, which it is for
some some may choose three percent. If we say, are
we going to increase it to five percent next year, well,
actually some employees that's ultimately ten percent, because the way
that their contract has been written is they're actually contributing
it as part of their pay. So those are some
of the other elements that we need to consider as well.
(28:37):
What's the interplay between total remuneration packages. Can we say
contribution increases the period in which we look to increase it,
but then also the element of who's missing out and why,
like the over sixty five year olds because they don't
you know, the employer might not have to contribute. What
about the mothers who've had to go on maternity You know,
(29:00):
there are some really amazing employers who actually continue can
contribute while they're on maternity leave. So those are the
elements we need to look at as those equity elements
as well.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
And we've talked about that the Australian contributions into their
super and I think it's sitting in around twelve or
over twelve percent at the moment. And what's your view
on how we may look to like do you have
figures in your mind and we see our contribution rates
needing to get to to support people in their retirement.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Everybody will need a different amount right for their retirement
depending on the lifestyle that they want to live when
they eventually decide to finish work or finish their business
or being a business owner. Some of the major benefits
for Australia not just some of their higher retirement savings.
It's actually it's created a deep pool of capital that
can be accessed for other areas within the Australian economy.
(29:54):
So for us as coming into the way that we
think about this policy is if we grow deeper pools
of funds or capital within the country, whether that's through
key WE Saver or you know, thank goodness for Sir
Michael Cullen and Helen Clark for the super fund. That
means that there's a bit more money in there to
be able to invest in areas that we need to
(30:15):
be invested in. It also gives governments different leavers as
well to be able to push and pool on ultimately
greater savings. Is New Zealand is good for us. So
with whether it's key WE say, where it's super funds,
where it's a sec whether it's key WE Saber providers
in the funds that they hold as well, that's all
makes it a better thing for New Zealand. It's just
(30:37):
a question of how much more do we need.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Can you envisage a future where superannuation is means tested.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I'm not under my watch and I really I say that,
you know, quite in a relaxed way, but also in
a way that I am an evidence and data person
and when I read the information from the retirement commissioner
commissioner around means testing, there's going to be a line
(31:06):
in the sand that's gonna hurt someone. So we need
to look at the retirement settings as a whole, not
just at income testing and not just at increasing the age,
but how do we increase can we save savings? How
do we ensure that the super fund is working as
it's intended to and actually it isn't working as intended
to because it's actually getting great returns and number one
(31:27):
in the world for pension funds. But making sure we
look at the full retirement system and that includes the
family home because most people if they buy the you know,
I think about a lot of the pensions. I know
in my area, they have their family home. When they
need to go to a retirement village, they sail down
that house and they move into a retirement village. So
(31:47):
the retirement village setting as well as part of that
whole retirement scheme and settings in New Zealand, So look
at it as a whole not just as different elements
of it, because they all work together very carefully, and
if you pull in one place then there could be
unintended consequences somewhere else. So it's a conversation that we
need to have more generally and more about open about
(32:09):
not just in come testing, not just about raising the age,
but about the whole settings for retirement in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
So what's your vision for the future of are.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
That's a big question. I mean, and I know it's
a big question. And I hear that every time I
have like a business dinner or a lunch or where
I get to spend time with some amazing businesses that
we in quy companies you have in New Zealand. Is
that you know what's the vision, and my vision will
be different to your vision. But ultimately, again if I
(32:40):
go back to where my first principles laid, it's a
New Zealand where there's an opportunity for everybody. That's why
I got into politics because I realized in my community
there were opportunities that my children had that other children
didn't have. So making sure there is opportunities, making sure
that you can if you want to live here, man,
that you can have your own home, or that you
(33:01):
have a security of tenure that you don't feel like
you're going to be kicked out the next week, where
you can lay down your routs in a community that
you choose, that where you want to send your kids to,
where you want to be able to access healthcare. So
it's a big question and for me, I can't yet
quite articulate what the vision is for New Zealand, but
(33:22):
I think about it as opportunities. This is an amazing country.
We have some amazing people doing such awesome things. But
it's just making sure that everybody has an opportunity, whether
you're the factory cleaner on the factory floor or whether
you're the retiree that wants to just see their grandchildren
come visit them. That's the New Zealand I remember growing
(33:45):
up and where everybody had a chance, and that's the
New Zealand, which when we come to the election, we
want to make sure that everybody has that opportunity as
well to be who they want to be and to
be able to build their roots, grow their community and
be that special place at the bottom of the world
where we know that everybody wants to move to when
(34:05):
things go bad, but also hold dear to us what
makes us New Zealanders.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Thanks Haanks for joining us, Barbara, we've covered a lot
of ground.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, lots always a good space though.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, and thanks everyone for tuning in. You can watch
she Ad Lunch on YouTube or follow along on your
favorite podcast app. Leave us a rating or comment about
what you'd like to hear about next Khaki Deck
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