September 19, 2025 • 46 mins
Ketamine therapy is emerging as a groundbreaking solution for first responders battling PTSD, depression, and anxiety – and who better to guide us through this innovative treatment than someone who truly understands the first responder experience?
In this enlightening conversation, we're joined by Amanda Sieve, a physician assistant specializing in ketamine therapy who brings a unique perspective as a fourth-generation first responder herself. Having served ten years on a volunteer fire department while working in emergency medicine, Amanda bridges the worlds of first responder culture and cutting-edge mental health treatment.
Amanda breaks down how ketamine works differently than traditional medications by enhancing memory formation rather than simply inhibiting hormones. She describes it as creating "a blanket of snow" over memories, allowing patients to form new, positive neural pathways without having to verbalize their trauma – a particular benefit for first responders who often struggle to articulate painful experiences.
The conversation takes a powerful turn when Jake, a former police officer, shares his personal journey. Despite trying numerous treatments including therapy, medication, EMDR, and somatic processing, Jake remained severely depressed and suicidal until finding relief through ketamine therapy. His candid testimony offers hope to others who may feel they've exhausted all options.
We explore practical aspects too – what to expect during treatment sessions, insurance coverage considerations, and the importance of creating a safe environment where first responders can let their guard down. Amanda's forthcoming clinic in West Des Moines (opening October 1st) will offer flexible scheduling specifically designed around first responder needs.
Whether you're personally struggling with PTSD or supporting someone who is, this episode removes the mystery around ketamine therapy and presents it as what it truly is: not a way to "get high," but a legitimate medical treatment offering new hope for those who serve our communities. Reach out to Amanda at 515-822-6384 to learn more about this promising path to healing.
If you or someone you know is in crisis and at risk of self-harm, please call or text 988, the suicide and crisis lifeline.
To contact us directly send an email to Dan@10-42project.org or call 515-350-6274
Visit our website! 10-42project.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome back to another episode of the Shared
Voices podcast brought to you bythe 1042 Project.
We got Jake back with us again.
Hello Jake.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hey Dan, Glad to be here again.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
We got an awesome guest with us, Amanda.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
How you doing Amanda.
Amanda's got so much to shareand I'm so excited for her to be
here.
Guys, number one, she's a firstresponder, but apparently
everybody in her family's firstresponders um, very, very, uh
man, she's one of us guys andshe also.
I brought her on to talk aboutketamine treatment and before
you like turn this off and kindof freak out, ketamine treatment
(00:39):
is an actual legal treatmentthat is being used to help um,
people and first respondersbecause we're people too,
believe it or not, with theirmental health and some other
things.
So I'm going to bring her on totalk about that because I'm not
the specialist, but she is, andshe is actually from the Iowa
area, so we're going to have heron.
(01:00):
But before we start, I justwant to thank everybody for
listening, give you a fewupdates.
If you have not signed up to bean ambassador, if you're in the
state of Iowa or thesurrounding area and you want to
be an ambassador for ourorganization, send an email to
our to dan at 10-42 projectorgdan-42projectorg.
We're looking for more firstresponders, first responder
(01:21):
family members who want to help,get equipped to go out and to
be a light for your area, forpeople in your part of the state
to walk along other firstresponders, if your family
members to walk along otherspouses, spouses to help walk
along other spouses.
We're looking for ambassadors.
We get calls all the time offirst responders that need help,
(01:43):
need support, and we're askingyou guys to step up, be part of
our organization and volunteerto be an ambassador.
So if that sounds interestingto you, reach out Also.
Just go to 10-42projectorg Also.
We're in the need.
We're growing, we're growingquick.
We need some office space.
We're praying that God willprovide some free office space
the bigger the better to set upour podcast studios, to set up
(02:06):
our meeting rooms where we meetwith people and not counsel them
, but we coach them, talk withthem.
We bring in counselors to talkwith them.
We need a space.
We're trusting that someone outthere has got office space or
knows somebody that's got officespace that's available that
they would be willing to donateto a 501c3 to use.
So if that's you or somebodyyou know or your business,
(02:28):
please reach out to us Again.
It's dan at 10-42projectorg oryou can just call me at
515-350-6274.
And thank you.
All right, let's get started,amanda.
All right, I got a list ofquestions and I'll try not to
interrupt you as best as I can,and I'm bringing on Jake because
Jake's had some ketaminetreatments.
(02:48):
So it's like I got the patient,I've got the.
Is it a doctor?
What are we what's?
Or North practitioner, or I'lllet you say what it is.
Introduce yourself and give usa little intro.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yep, my name is Amanda Steve.
I am a physician assistantassistant and I specialize in IV
ketamine treatments andintranasal ketamine, which is
also called Spravato, and I havebeen doing that for a year and
a half now and so that's kind ofhas now become my passion,
because I've noticed how well itimproves my patient base and
(03:28):
for all the people that arestuck in their either depression
, anxiety, ptsd episodes or justeven need a mind reset.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So a couple of questions.
Are you a?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
first responder.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Is that what you told me?
Mm-hmm, all right, before we goin too deep, let's talk about
that, because I didn't know thatJake had me invite you on and
then I heard you got on here andyou said you're a your first
responder.
And the reason why I react likehuh because to me it is a big
deal, because when we have youknow, our organ is I should
probably get my microphone back.
Sorry about that amateur, but Ican go to my history for first
(03:59):
responder yeah, sorry so be ableto have for our, be able to
have our listeners and our firstresponders be able to come and
listen to another firstresponder talk about treatment,
and you're the person that givesthe treatment and you're a
first responder and a spouse ofa first responder.
I think you're the perfectperson.
So tell us about your firstresponder-ness.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yep, so I grew up in West Des Moines.
My mom was a Des Moinesfirefighter and she was a
paramedic on West Des Moines EMS.
A Des Moines firefighter andshe was a paramedic on West Des
Moines EMS.
So my entire childhood, growingup, I was part of a 911
household.
I'm actually a fourthgeneration first responder.
My grandma and my great grandmawere also dispatch police and
(04:39):
paramedics, so that's kind ofStrong woman line yes, yes.
I love it.
So initially I had had someinterest in the medical field,
but not so much.
So I ended up going to college.
When I got done I was justtrying to figure out what worked
for me and ended up taking anEMT class and that kind of got
me into the first responderoccupation.
(05:00):
I have been on a volunteer firedepartment for 10 years.
While I was there, actually, Istarted working there with my
husband and he didn't haveanything either, so we just did
it more for fun.
And then I ended up going toschool to become a physician
assistant because I figured outthat as EMTs I wanted to do more
(05:21):
for my patients.
So then I decided to go to PAschool and then I ran as a PA
exempt is what it's called so Ican run as a paramedic under the
scope of a paramedic.
So I ran as a paramedic for onthe fire department for I
graduated so it'd be seven yearsafter that as a higher level
(05:45):
care.
And then when I got my PA, Iactually work in the emergency
department.
So continuity of care ofpatients.
So when our first responderswould drop off our patients, I
would then take care of them andthen work alongside nursing
staff, which I feel like is ahuge component to the first
responder world as well.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
Wow.
You're like superwoman.
Holy cow, that's awesome.
So what?
So how did you go from that tonow we're on a podcast talking
about ketamine.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
So three, four years ago I wanted to give IV fluids
to patients because sometimessome patients just need IV
fluids instead of going to theER and getting a full workup,
getting imaging done like ifthey had the stomach bug,
stomach flu.
So I looked into what it wouldtake in order to start my own
business that way.
So we could do like mobile homeservices we could go to
(06:40):
patients' homes or they couldcome to us.
We do different events as wellBachelor parties, bachelorette
parties.
We just finished up withRAGBRAI as well, doing IV fluids
.
One of my preceptors actuallyasked me two years ago if I
would be interested in doing IVketamine.
I didn't know much about it.
(07:01):
So I started doing my research,my studying, asking the
pharmacist how it was involved.
So I did a lot of research andthen started doing IV ketamine
treatment and then Spravato cameto be a thing as well, so kind
of added that into the treatmentcourse.
So it all started with the IVfluids, hydration and then added
in the ketamine side of things.
(07:21):
So we still offer both.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Interesting.
So when she says that she isdoing ketamine, she doesn't mean
that she herself, or maybe sheis, but she's talking about
medically ministering.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So to make sure I gotta sayit's slow for the firefighters.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
No, I'm just kidding, just kidding.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
All right, wow.
So so tell me.
So let's get into some scienceof it, because first responders,
man, we're going to pick itapart.
We need some evidence, we needyou got to prove this to us.
So let's talk about somescience on how in the world
ketamine could possibly helpsomebody with PTSD depression.
What other issues can it helpwith?
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yep, how can?
Speaker 1 (08:04):
you explain that, would you?
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Yep.
So, going into the physiologypart of things, most of your
antidepressants actually inhibityour hormones, so it stops
certain hormones from occurring,so you don't have too much or
too less of hormones, whereasket um enhances your memory
formation, so how you make yourmemories, that's what it
(08:29):
essentially works on.
So certain memories will comeinto thought during your
treatment session and itactually replaces it with more
of a positive feeling, becausewhile you're on the ketamine,
you have a very what I like todescribe as a floating feeling.
So just you, you're stillpresent, you're still there, you
still know what's going on, youcan open your eyes and see
things, um, but it's more like amore positive experience versus
(08:52):
the negative thoughts thatinitially caused that memory so
what's happening during thattime?
Speaker 1 (08:59):
so so walk me into this.
I got back up here real quick,so walk me in.
So a first responder wants toget ahold of Amanda because
you're going to be opening yourclinic soon.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Yep October 1st is hopefully our date.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
October 1st and you're going to be located where
In Central Iowa?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yep West Des Moines.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
West Des Moines.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Okay, so once you're open, let's just first
responders listening and him andhis wife or her and her husband
are sitting there and they'relike, wow, we should really try
this.
And what's the next steps?
Walk us through what that isand, and a little bit of again
the next steps of how to do it,the whole process, because our
first responders need tomentally be able to see what
(09:42):
it's like.
We like to remove any and allfears that people have to get
help, and one of them is justtrying to picture it and then to
listen to somebody that's beenthrough it, like Jake.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Sure, yep.
So most patients have maybereferred by a mental health
provider, but if they don't haveone they can still call the
office and schedule a consultwith me.
And basically in the consult wekind of talk a little bit about
a history.
We don't get too too deep intothings, but we talk about just
kind of what medications they'vebeen on before to see if they
(10:13):
qualify for the Spravato andthat's the intranasal ketamine,
just because that is covered byinsurance and so essentially
that's most of the time cheaperfor patients.
Iv ketamine is also an option.
They both work the same, it'sjust one's covered by insurance,
one is not.
So they do the consult with me,we discuss the pros and cons,
(10:33):
they get the information.
They don't necessarily have toschedule right then and there
they can think about it.
I give them the informationthat they need.
So they have time to go backand research it themselves.
But once we get approval frominsurance or if they say yes, I
want to go ahead and do IVketamine, we then schedule their
treatment plan and that'sinitially twice a week for four
weeks.
(10:54):
So they come in for thetreatment session either one or
two hours depending on whattreatment they're doing, and
during that treatment.
Initially the first one,they're usually confused on what
they're supposed to be doing,so they're like I'm not sure I
like this.
But once they get into thesecond and the third, I'm sure
they can vouch for that too.
The second and the third it'slike oh okay, now I know how I'm
feeling, now I can just sithere and relax.
(11:17):
I think the most important thingis sitting, relaxing, and it's
a I always call it a spa day foryour brain.
So it actually just quiets yourbrain for all the thoughts that
we have going 24-7.
So it slows everything down.
Some sessions you'll havethoughts that come in and you're
able to process them.
Sometimes you won't have anythoughts at all, you'll just be.
(11:37):
You'll have a timeout for anhour or two hours and then after
the session you will have tohave a driver home, can't drive
until you basically take a napUm, no light big life decision,
selling your house, anythinglike that.
But then after that they canfunction as normal when they
leave the clinic.
Usually they can talk, walk asnormal.
Um, it's just they can't drive.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So so they, so they get driven home.
And then what?
Basically just chill in therecliner for a while?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Yeah, just go on with your normal day.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Are the effects still meaning that, the thoughts, the
spa for the brain, as you said?
Is that the effects of it stillhappening while you're at home
too?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
No, so usually when they leave they feel back to
normal.
So their brain just slowlycomes back to what it has been.
I've had patients go to therapyright afterwards.
It sounds like that has beenvery beneficial for the ones
that do go straight to therapy.
But you don't have to doanything in specific that day.
What I do suggest for mostpeople is to journal what they
(12:37):
feel each day just to see if wehave improvement and we do
different anxiety and depressionscreenings just to kind of see
the progression and improvementthroughout treatment.
Or if we have some setbacks,what could have caused that,
those kinds of things throughoutthe treatment sessions.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Dan, I can tell you the first, the first handful of
times I did it, I did just gostraight home and just chill.
But at this point after, afterbeing used to it, first of all
the effects, and sooner theyjust wear, it wears off sooner
and I have actually got to apoint where I like to run or
lift, uh, like when I get home.
(13:15):
Uh, I don't know, I'm probablyweird, I'm probably the anomaly
there, but it.
But my point is, by the timeyou get home you can really do
most, most anything you want.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Okay, so how's that differ, then, from man?
I've had multiple surgeries,Like when you come out of
surgery and you're so like allyou want to do is just fall back
into deep sleep and for therest of the day usually with
surgery you don't feel likedoing crap.
Obviously your body's notgetting worked on.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
but isn't it the same type of medicine that they use?
It depends on what they use forsedation.
Usually, for sedation, they usemore of a sedative versus this
one.
It's a short acting and thehalf-life comes out as soon as
you know, an hour or twoafterwards, so you really feel
back to normal.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
So it doesn't hold on like a narcotic or Correct.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
And like.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Usually, they use Versed, which is a benzodiazep,
and that's what causes you to betired.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I've had some of my best runs within the last month
after ketamine treatment.
I don't like step out the doorand just take off running.
There's usually an hour or twothat goes by, but running is
like kind of a form ofmeditation to me and so it's
just like almost a continuationof the treatment.
Treatment and and there is, Imean it is a dissociative
(14:35):
anesthetic and so there is likeoh, I believe it causes a lower,
like less has an effect oninflammation in the body.
Is that right, correct?
Speaker 1 (14:43):
in a good or bad way it decreases oh praise god.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
That's what I need to and uh, and so I just feel like
in a way I can run a little bitlonger and like a little bit
easier.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
And that's another thing too your depression is
kind of factored in with pain aswell for the patients that have
chronic pain.
So ketamine is actually alsoused for chronic pain and there
is a different dosing for that.
So we can actually treatpatients with just chronic pain
on a lower dose, and it willhelp their depression in the
long run too.
So all depending on your dosing.
We're either treatingdepression or pain, but that
(15:16):
depression level is stilltreating the pain.
I actually had a patient thatwas coming in for IV ketamine
just for pain control after ahip replacement, so it was
actually replacing the narcoticsthat they sent her home with.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Wow, that's see, that's, that's, that's double
bonus right there, because Ihave been addicted to narcotics.
That's part of my story isaddiction to hydrocodone pills,
and I'm not the only one.
It's pretty common in the firstresponder world throughout the
country.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I've had those issues too, as you know, dan, and I
can tell you that I don't.
I don't really know why theketamine does not feel to me
like it has an addictive quality, even as a guy who can get
addicted to most anything um Ijust have never.
It just has never felt that wayto me.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
I can't really say why I have had a lot of patients
ask about addiction for themedication and it's usually the
feeling that they have whilethey're on.
It is what they get addicted to.
It's not necessarily anaddiction, they just like the
way their mind rests.
So the important thing is,throughout treatment, getting to
that state without themedication in between your
(16:27):
treatment days.
So whether you go running oryou go lift or go color or watch
a movie, getting to those spotswithout that medication.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
So when people take the medicine, you walk in and
it's a nose spray, right Nosespray.
More than one, or somethingright, or a couple, yep.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Two at one time and then you wait five minutes, do
another two sprays and then,once they go up to the higher
dose, which is usually after thefirst time, then we do a third
time at 15 minutes.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Okay, so then do you just sit them in a room, and
they sit there.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yep, they sit in the room by themselves.
I've had patients have eyemassage masks to cover their
eyes.
Some patients don't like theireyes covered.
I always suggest for them tobring their own headphones so
then that way they can listen totheir own meditation music to
kind of get rid of all the othernoise that might be happening
in the office.
But usually it's pretty quietand they basically just sit
(17:25):
there.
I check their vitals when theyfirst get there and then I check
it at 40 minutes, um, and that40 minutes is usually that peak
feeling, and so when I go andcheck on them they are feeling
good, um, and then then it'sslow, they start to come down
from the sensation or the sideeffects of the ketamine and then
after two hours, like jake said, he's ready to up and go and
(17:46):
walk out of there without anyproblems dan, my experience the
first couple times I went inthere like amanda said,
especially the first time I didI had no idea what was going to
happen and when I left I waskind of like what?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I feel better, but what was that?
Like, it just kind of was likea hurricane that came and came
and went pretty quick.
But once I got to know, youknow like what the purpose of it
was and I did some reading andyou know some, got on reddit and
got some.
You know, like what the purposeof it was and I did some
reading and you know some, goton Reddit and got some.
You know other people'sexperiences.
I started using an eye mask andheadphones and, especially for
(18:19):
those of us with ADHD, I feltthat without the, without the
eye mask and without some musicI was just getting, I was
getting distracted by everything.
Even even even under this youknow, somewhat sedated state or
relaxed state, I just was, I wasgoing and I was just thinking
about anything and everythingand it was just kind of useless.
But if I can block off my, myeyes and my and just you know,
(18:41):
pick the right kind of music.
There are some Spotifyplaylists that are actually
called like best ketamineplaylist or like ketamine
treatment or like deep recoveryfor ketamine, and I've tried a
couple of those and that's whenI really can just let, like she
said, I can kind of let.
It's almost like EMDR, you kindof just want to let whatever
comes up, come up.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
And that's when I've got the most benefit out of it.
And with those videos and thatmusic that you've used during
treatment, if you ever have asituation where you're not in
ketamine treatment and it islike a stressful trigger, I
always suggest using thosevideos, listening to them again
without that ketamine, so thenthat kind of brings you down to
the level of you know duringyour treatment session.
So it's kind of also a goodoutlet too in the event that you
(19:27):
can't get to a you know aketamine treatment if you're
having you know either can't getto a, you know, a ketamine
treatment.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
If you're having, you know either nightmares, night
terrors uh, ptsd episode that Iwould assume.
That's because you're probablyforming a some sort of pathway
interesting.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
I didn't know that.
I yeah, that's beneficial to mepotentially.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yep, so that because it's it's there's actual science
going on inside the brain.
When you take the medicineright like it's, it's it's
helping, helping us go back tothe pathways, cause, if I
remember right from the doctor Iheard over in Chicago Um, yeah,
I don't know.
Just explain that to me more,because doesn't it change, like
the neural pathways where youcan like change your thought
(20:06):
processes and stuff?
Speaker 3 (20:08):
So and Jake's probably has heard this field
before Um, so I basicallydescribe it as a blanket of snow
on your memory.
So you have your memories andthen you have a blanket of snow
that goes down.
It doesn't erase your memories,they're still there, but you're
responsible for making newtracks of your memories going
forward.
So they'll come up during thetreatment session with the
ketamine and then you make thosenew positive, feeling positive
(20:30):
tracks and some things may comeup that you didn't realize
bothered you and you process itin a different way and then
therefore have a better outlookof something else.
And I will say ketamine is niceas far as you don't have to
talk to people about things.
I feel like in the firstresponder world.
We, like you said before, youknow we are.
(20:51):
We have to be those pillars, wehave to be strong for everybody
else.
Sometimes it's hard to expressthat information.
So this ketamine is used tohelp process the stuff that
bothers you without verbalizingit.
Yes, verbalizing it helps, butit may help in the future with a
therapist at a different timeor a friend or a family member,
(21:12):
but it makes it less traumaticbringing up that topic later.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
So what if you're like me and you just my brain a
lot of times will defaultnegative everything.
So what if you go in there, youtake your ketamine treatment
and you're remembering yourmemories but you're not making
new positive pathways.
You're living them, relivingthe trauma of it or the stress
and the anxiety like will thatcome back or does this kind of
depress that?
Speaker 3 (21:38):
It helps depress that there has been a couple of
patients in which they havebecome more anxious because of
the treatment sessions.
So ketamine works on depression, um.
So usually you have youranxiety and your depression and
they're like leveling each otherout.
This takes care of thedepression.
So you feel less depressed.
If anything, you feel a littlebit more anxious.
So it's more managing thatanxiousness because it doesn't
(22:00):
have that depression tocounteract it.
We do have a couple of differentmodalities as far as um.
Jake hasn't tried this one yet,but it's called alpha stem.
It's basically like aneurotransmitter, like a TENS
unit on your ears that I've usedwith patients that are
extremely anxious, but it helpsground them if they do have a
more anxiety provoking session.
But usually with those if Ihave patients that need that are
(22:24):
having a bad session, which isvery, very rare I will sit in
there and we will walk throughthings.
So it's not like they're inthere by themselves, it's just
they got to.
Let me know if that does comeabout, cause if not, I just kind
of let them be, or we kind ofchange the modality or get them
up, walk them to the bathroom,come back, reset and restart, do
you?
Speaker 1 (22:44):
give them something to think about, or just here
here.
Here you go, relax and we'llcheck on you a little bit, and
you just know that their brainwill naturally start to feel
like, think positive and workits way through the thoughts.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Correct and if you try and go one direction versus
the other and fight it.
Sometimes that can cause somefrustration with the treatment
session.
So a lot of times I say, okay,focus, brain brings about um,
versus tracking it one direction.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Cool, Go ahead Jake.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I, when I at the time that I started ketamine
treatment, I was severelydepressed to a level that I
didn't I hadn't even shared withanybody.
Uh, I was suicidal almost allthe time and I didn't see a
purpose to doing anything.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
And.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I had also.
I mean I should mention that Iwas also doing therapy.
I was also seeing anotherprovider in the same office for
regular medication management.
I had done EMDR, I had donesomatic processing with the
trauma coach.
I had, I mean I had I had donea lot of other things.
So it's hard to say for sure itwas only ketamine.
But what I can tell you is thatbefore ketamine I had a really
(23:53):
hard time getting rid of thatdepression.
And even now I mean I'm at apoint now where my next
appointment isn't until I'mstretching them out every two
weeks and and I just I haven'thad, I haven't had one of those
thoughts and I don't know howlong.
And it's it's like almost.
I almost don't even believe itmyself because it just kind of
went away, and it's not that Iintentionally did anything other
(24:16):
than go to the clinic and dothe treatments.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Wow, that's a testimony right there.
If you guys listen and seriously, I mean I don't need to be the
voice of it.
I mean, jake just told you.
I mean it may not work for you,but he's telling you what
worked for him.
I mean, no matter what you sayabout Spravato or ketamine, it
doesn't change his experience.
It's helped him and I thinkthat's pretty cool.
And I think as first responders,we can sometimes be closed off
(24:42):
to help like this.
And maybe it's upsetting somepeople that I'm even talking
about it on the podcast, but I Iseen that there's nothing wrong
with this.
It's just like any othermedicine.
It's not.
I heard somebody say it.
They might've been at thatconference Like, oh, so it's
just a legal way for you guys tosit around and be high, and
it's like no, I think there'smore to that.
(25:02):
It's not a bunch of people justsitting around watching and
dazed and confused, takingketamine.
Um, because this is this ishelp.
That's out there and try it.
It may work for you.
Um, I cannot honestly like Ican.
I wish your clinic was open soI could get started.
(25:23):
I want to get started, um, butI'll be patient.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
I know there's some other clinics out there that do
that, which is awesome, um andone thing too, with um, our
clinic, what I'm really going tofocus on as well.
The biggest thing is finding aride.
The logistics of it is probablythe hardest part.
The easiest part is coming tothe appointment and sitting and
having a break.
So we are actually going towork with our patients as far as
transportation goes If theydon't have a ride, working with
(25:48):
them and pairing up with Lyft orUber or having our own driver.
So that will also be a benefitto our patients.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Smart, yeah, because, yeah, some, some people may
have the time to do it, but theymay not have a buddy or a
spouse that's able to come andsit for an hour or two.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yep, yep, and our hours.
Initially before it was eightto five, but my plan is to allow
for some nighttime hours justfor people who work an eight to
five job, and then a potentiallya Saturday as well.
Um, so we'll kind of see whatthe need is and work with our
patients and make sure that theyget the help that they need.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Okay, and so I got to ask questions, cause I just got
another one.
Why can't people, why isn'tthis legislated to, where people
can use bravado at home intheir bed?
I mean, what is the concern forit to be medically supervised?
Because for some people that'swhat they're thinking and
(26:44):
honestly, it was one of my firstthoughts, but then I know that
there's a reason why there'smedical supervision over this,
so you want to kind of explainthat a little bit.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
So some of the adverse side effects it may
cause an increase in bloodpressure.
So patients as they come inhave to have at least a
controlled blood pressure.
Usually the first time it is alittle elevated just because
they're a little nervous withtheir first session.
But the concern is the elevatedblood pressure and I have had
some patients that dissociate alittle bit more than others,
usually the older population.
(27:14):
So we kind of start with thelower dose and monitor closer
because it's just good to have amedical provider to redirect.
There are some home ketaminetreatment options available, but
it's a sublingual tablet andyou have to check in with a
provider before and after thesession.
But again, my thing is ifthere's an adverse reaction, at
(27:37):
least in the clinic somebody cansee them, can manage them and
help them walk them throughthings, cause there's some times
that I couldn't even imagine ifthe patient side effect would
have been would happen at home.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Right, and it's always so much better to do
supervised care.
I mean, I know there's othercares out there that you can do.
You can get online and kind ofdo it backdoor wise, but it's
very important to do it in asafe way with somebody who's
medically trained.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Get away from your house and go to a place that's
quiet and meant for relaxationand quiet, Jake, when you were
in there.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Jake, when you were in there you know PTSD, it's
what a lot of us deal with Didyou?
When you're sitting in there,do you worry at all, Like you
know somebody coming in?
You know what I mean.
Like we don't put our backs tothe doors in restaurants, right?
So when you're in there, do youfeel safe?
Right, you've told me you feelsafe.
Like you don't feel like youcan put your, like you feel like
you can put your guard downwhen you're in their office
(28:30):
You're not worried about.
You know you're able to relaxwithout worrying about somebody
coming in and attacking you, ordo you know what I'm saying?
You know how our brain messeswith us.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Yeah, initially that was a big concern of mine and it
was a reason that I talkedmyself out of doing ketamine
therapy several different times.
I knew that it would likely putme in a state of what I just
thought of as vulnerability.
Not that I thought there's, youknow.
You know madmen running arounda clinic all the time.
But I, just like you're saying,you get really paranoid as a
(28:58):
first responder, especially whenyou develop mental health
conditions.
And so Amanda was the onlyperson that I had really ever
known of or met that I waswilling to do it with, because I
had a personal connection and Iknew she understood first
responders in a different way.
And so, yeah, getting startedwith her was, for me, probably
the only way I was gonna do it.
(29:20):
I can say, looking back, that Iwas just being a little too
extra about that, because now,like Amanda said, she's parted
ways with the clinic and I stillreceive treatments from that
clinic currently, and at thispoint I'm used to it and it
doesn't matter to me what'sgoing on around me or who's
involved.
Uh, I know, I just know.
(29:42):
I know how it goes.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
So, um, overall I would say, yeah, you definitely
want to establish a some levelof trust and understanding with
whoever your provider is goingin, but it just gets easier over
time once you know what what'sgoing to happen so I know some
people that's had, that's beenin the military, that when they
(30:04):
get surgeries done they have tolet the military know they bring
somebody in to be in thesurgical room during it to make
sure that the person doesn't sayanything.
That's protected governmentstuff, because you hear people
when they go into surgery orwhatever.
All of a sudden they startloopy and they're talking about
things they shouldn't be talkingabout or whatever.
All of a sudden they startloopy and they're talking about
things they shouldn't be talkingabout.
When somebody comes in andthey're on a ketamine treatment,
is it all of a sudden you'rejust spewing out everything and
(30:28):
acting a fool, or you have fullcontrol over your body, your
voice, what you say.
It's not like you're drunk onvodka or anything like that.
Right, you have control of your.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
You have control.
But I kind of relate it alittle bit to drinking like you
still know what you're saying,um, and you still have control
of saying it.
But it's not a you don'tremember what you said type of
thing, um, and honestly, peopleare so relaxed like they don't
really care to say much to me.
Usually I just check in and seehow they're doing and if
they're having any side effects.
If not, just leave them be andcheck their vitals and leave
(31:06):
them in the way.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
The way I feel personally I don't know if this
is everybody's experience is Iuh?
I wouldn't say like I'm afraidto say something, but I I'm not
afraid to say that I've smokedmarijuana before and I've smoked
and I've been too high, and ifyou can relate to that, you can
get to a point where you're likeafraid to say anything because
you feel like you're going tosound stupid, and that's that's
(31:28):
kind of how it is for me.
I don't really want to talk toanybody because I feel like I'm
going to sound weird or saysomething off the wall.
Amanda maybe has heard me saysomething awful, I don't know,
but it makes me not want to talkat all personally.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
So if you walk in and you're stressed out because you
have all this stuff going on inyour life and you've got to get
your treatment, because you gotthis going on and your life's
going, so you go in there, youget treatment and you sit down
and you're thinking about thisbig thing at work, can you then
switch that off and think aboutget down to the core issues that
you're really dealing with?
Kind of get.
Sometimes I have troublegetting past that, that, that
(32:03):
main level of distraction, toeven calm my brain to where it's
in a situation where it's I canhave a safe place to encounter
healing.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
So it kind of gets that business out of your head
and you're able to calm.
Yes, so all those thoughts willslowly come down and you may
even just start picking one way,start thinking about this one.
Okay, you're going to do thislater.
I hope we want to make sure wedo this so it puts into a filing
cabinet, so you do one file ata time and able to process it,
whether it's the stuff you gotto do today, but usually it's
not.
Usually your mind takes you acompletely different route and
(32:38):
you're able to work on somethings that you do need to work
on.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Cool route, um and you're able to work on some
things that you do need to workon.
Cool, I going in, I've, I'vegone in very relaxed and very
worked up and there is adifference.
Um, you get benefits both, bothways, uh for sure.
Uh, and you come out of thetreatment feeling much better,
no matter what the times thatI've had a half an hour or an
hour beforehand to myself to tomeditate, to get myself centered
(33:03):
and grounded, I've gotten muchmore out of it.
But, as we know, when we havePTSD and other mental health
conditions like depression,anxiety, that's not always
possible.
So I have gone in there just onedge and it's still been, still
been fun, it's still been veryhelpful.
I just think if you can groundyourself, it's more beneficial.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Have you ever walked out with more anxiety be honest?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
no, not even close just curious.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
You know, I just it's nice to know that it'll it can
call me like that, becausesometimes that's where most of
us have trouble is getting thatthat, that buzzing noise of
busyness and craziness, to calmdown you, you really got to
focus or not focus you should.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
You should be careful about who picks you up.
I'll say that and what.
What condition they are inCause I have had some times
where I've been picked up and Iunpack that.
What's that?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Unpack that.
What do you?
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (33:57):
So I've had.
I've had times where I come outof there just feeling really
good and like introspective andjust ready to kind of like build
on that through the rest of theday or the afternoon.
And if I've been picked up bysomeone who is very anxious or
just, you know, just came froman overstimulating environment,
that energy can kind of thoseenergies can clash a little bit.
(34:19):
And again, it's not that itdoesn't make it, it doesn't ruin
it, but if you can pick upsomeone who understands, or
again can be picked up bysomeone who understands what you
just did and will support youcorrectly, that's better, that's
ideal.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
No, that's good to know.
That's the type of informationwe want to be able to share, is
what's the smoothest route forfirst responders to go through,
and that's good.
So maybe not get picked up bythe wife who is ready to beat
you to death because of all theyou know.
Maybe get picked up by somebodywho doesn't want to wants to
add peace to your life.
At the moment I don't know whatyou're talking about, Dan.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
I was talking about you I will say to you, if some
people a little bit more anxious, coming in for a couple other
visits or just want somebody tosit with them, they can't have
family members sit with them.
I do.
We do allow that you can have.
If you want to do a treatmentsession with your spouse, as
long as they've gone through thesame clearance always an option
which, which I think that'sbeneficial as well.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
So just allowing them to process things together to
understand the treatment plan aswell.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
That is huge.
You can have people come in andsit with you.
That's awesome.
So if you do have that fear ofI don't want to go in there and
be vulnerable and all that stuff, okay, bring somebody with you.
Yep, somebody who.
Yep, somebody calm, bringsomebody with you.
That's one of the Yep or yourtrauma coach.
(35:54):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Been through it before.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
And again, a lot of this podcast is for awareness.
If you guys don't, if you'reafraid to go to the amanda's
clinic by yourself, reach out tojake or I will go with you.
I'm gonna go absolutely.
You don't have to do this alone.
Go ahead, jake.
What?
Speaker 2 (36:11):
were you gonna say?
I said absolutely I'd be, youknow, more than willing to help.
However I can with that, I I do.
You know we talked before westarted recording about I have
plans to put together specificprograms for before and after,
what to expect and then how tointegrate it afterwards and some
of my own takeaways, that typeof thing.
But yeah, absolutely I would.
I would, definitely I'd bewilling to.
(36:32):
You know, when it comes to afirst responder, especially a
first responder in crisis, justyeah, call, we can talk about it
, we can talk all the waythrough it beforehand.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Do you journal?
Speaker 2 (36:44):
When I can sit still long enough.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, I'm just curious.
It's very valuable.
I've just kind of been one ofthose people too that I have
trouble with it.
I know now they have these whatdo they call them, these
journals where you just do likeone line a day for the same day
every year.
It's like a five-year journalor something like that.
But it's very valuable and Iheard you say that, amanda,
about journaling because whenyou start the healing process of
(37:08):
healing from PTSD anddepression and that kind of
stuff, as you start to heal, youalmost kind of forget where you
were.
So to be able to journal yourjourney of healing, even if it's
just once a week even, but even, you know, once a day, to be
able to journal your thoughtsand feelings for a little while
as you're going through yourhealing, you will then be able
(37:28):
to go back and look and seewhere you were and all the
progress that you actually made.
On the days where you are sadand depressed and don't want to
get out of bed because you feellike you've made no progress,
out of bed, because you feellike you've made no progress,
these journals can go back andhelp you realize the struggles
you've gone through, thestrength you've you've used to
overcome those.
The growth you've made, causewe want to be focused on that.
(37:52):
When we're down on our down inour dumps or having an episode
is we want to focus on thepositive stuff we've been doing,
cause as soon as we get out ofthat bad episode, it's time to
get right back on the horse andwe start getting right back into
healing and we give ourselfgrace and healing and we move
forward.
Um, I would really advise youguys that are listening to check
this out.
I'm going to check it out.
(38:12):
I'm going to, I'm going to do apodcast on it when I get done,
when I do some treatments, Iwant to air it.
I want to talk to you guysabout it.
My own experience and Amanda.
So October 1st is we're hopingfor somewhere around there for
an opening date and that's notpoured in concrete yet.
But if somebody wants to getstarted now, is there anything
they can do to reach out to youor do we just kind of need to
(38:35):
hold off for right now?
Speaker 3 (38:38):
They can feel free to call me.
Call me, text me, message me.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
What do you, what do you prefer?
Speaker 3 (38:46):
Uh, probably text.
So then that way if I'm in themiddle of something, I can at
least um take some time andrespond or call them when I have
a moment.
I am a mom of two boys and busytrying to get um all my
charting and all my meetingsdone, uh, so I can make sure I
take some time for people and Ican do a telehealth visits to
beforehand, just even to consultand discuss the treatment plan,
(39:07):
before we actually have thedoors.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
And what's that number?
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yep 515-822-6384.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Okay, so that's 515-822-6384.
Just one more time 515-822-6384.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
That's for revitalize , For IV hydration, IV ketamine
or intranasal ketamine or justmental health evaluation.
Talking resources from a firstresponder.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
What was the first thing you said in that list?
Speaker 3 (39:45):
IV hydration.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Okay.
So a lot of times they'redealing with first responders
who are trying to get better,trying to get sober right, and
they go through that detox phasewhere it's very painful and
ugly and it's awful.
Yes, um, can that help withthat?
(40:05):
The rehydration deal yes yep,that's great, because I've been
through that when you'redetoxing.
It's no fun and a lot of it isfluid issues.
Yeah, yep okay so then you havethat, the ketamine treatment
treatment Awesome.
So they don't have so to goback, they don't?
It doesn't have to be theirdoctor that refers them, but it
(40:28):
can be.
But if not, they can godirectly to you and they can
have a consult.
Consult with you.
They don't have to go throughtheir main provider.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
And.
But it can speed up the processif their mental health provider
basically sends over their lastoffice note.
Uh, just to get things goingfor insurance quicker.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Okay, makes sense.
And then so insurance.
You said insurance covers it,but how much do they cover?
And I know every insurance isdifferent, but Blue Cross, Blue
Shield is a big one around hereand I know they have multiple
different plans but whatgenerally is the out-of-price
cost for somebody that comes tothe clinic if their insurance?
Speaker 3 (41:06):
So the way there's a couple different ways to do it.
So right now I'm only chargingan office visit.
So whatever a normal officevisit would be, as you go to a
mental health provider or adoctor's office and then the
pharmacy contacts them directlyfor the drug cost.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
OK, so that goes through the pharmacy, then
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Correct.
So all depending on if you havea tier, a copay for insurance
for meds or if you have a highdeductible.
Essentially you have to do outof pocket high deductible until
your deductible is met.
I pay.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
I don't know how much is ordered every time you can
speak to this, amanda, but it'swhen it's the drug is ordered.
I pay $18.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
And then each time I go to the office it's a $10
copay.
Wow, that Okay.
Okay, I was thinking like ahundred or 200.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
And I don't have.
I have, I have health partnersthrough unity point, which is
notoriously not great, so Iwould imagine there's better
plans.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Yeah, and initially it may seem like a lot of money
when they first get contacted bythe pharmacy.
However, there's multiple copaycards, there's different things
that they can get money back.
So there's definitely as far asthe provider side of things
that they work with the patientsto make sure it's affordable.
And then there's also one thatsomebody doesn't make enough
money, can't pay for it.
It's like a grant, essentially,and they automatically send the
(42:28):
medication at no cost to thepatient.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Awesome, yeah, so that's great to know.
I never would have known.
So it actually goes throughyour drug coverage plan for that
side of it and then your sideof it, the doctor's side, comes
out of the okay.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
And then, as far as insurances go, I'll just kind of
cover those real quick.
So I take Blue Cross, blueShield, working on United
Healthcare.
Health Partners is another one.
We'll be taking Medicare aswell, and then cash price for
the IV ketamine.
If I don't take any of theinsurances, or if it is an
insurance that we can workthrough and work on
credentialing all the based offof the patient, an insurance
(43:02):
that we can work through andwork on credentialing all based
off of the patient's need, wecan work on that.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Okay and I get asked this all the time Some of our
first responders, especiallyones that are retired or left
the job early do you guys takestate insurance?
I assume not.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Not Medicaid right now, but we do take Medicare.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Okay, you do take Medicare.
Good to know, that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
I will say, though, medicare usually it's very
expensive because the co-paycards do not qualify, so a lot
of times with them it's cheaperif you just do the.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
IV.
Yeah, okay, well cool, ourtime's kind of wrapping up here,
but thank you so much.
That was a wealth ofinformation.
Again, we're going to have youon again, if you will allow us
to bring you back on um, andwhen you get your clinic open, I
want to be one of your firstpatients, so maybe you and I
should get started on the, theuh, the pre-stuff, the
pre-paperwork and all that kindof stuff to get going um.
(43:55):
And I recommend you guys, if, ifyou think this might be a good
treatment, um, pray about it,talk to your spouse about it,
but there's multiple.
I know there's treatment, prayabout it, talk to your spouse
about it, but there's multiple.
I know there's multipledifferent treatments out there
to help first responders.
This is another one and this isone that I've heard great
things about.
It's one that I've heard helpedchange lives.
I mean, jake said that earlieris one of the things that helped
him the most.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
Yeah, I was just going to say look me up on
social media Facebook, instagram.
Jake Ville on Facebook.
At Jake Ville on Instagram.
Send me a message if you wantto talk about it, totally
confidential, I'll tell youeverything that you want to know
based on my own experience.
I'm not not Amanda, but ifyou're not ready to, you know,
actually call the clinic.
(44:36):
You just want to talk to aformer cop who's done it?
Just feel free to look me up onsocial media.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Cool.
Well, thank you guys.
That was fun.
I learned a lot and I'm reallyexcited.
Man, I wish your clinic was opentoday, but I'm excited you're
I'm glad that you are are takingthat leap of faith, because I
think it'll be very fruitful,not just for you, but very
fruitful for all of yourpatients and the healing they
can get.
And thank you for doing that,and I know it that, and I know
(45:04):
it won't be.
You know it won't be a perfectride as you go through this from
this day on, but there's goingto be ups and downs and I just
thank you for be willing to stepin and take that battle for us.
I think it's cool.
I really think that, especiallythe more we talk about it, the
more first responders will reachout and add this to their, to
(45:24):
their, to their treatment plan.
So thank you, amanda Again.
Her number is 515-822-6384.
Get ahold of her.
Also, you can reach out to usat our podcast at
10-42projectorg.
Jake and Amanda, thank you somuch you guys have been a
blessing and see you next week.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Thanks Dan.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yep.
And that wraps up anotherepisode from the 10 42 project
shared voices podcast.
Thank you for tuning in andjust a reminder we are a five oh
one, C, three.
If you guys can support us, youcan go to our website.
Or if you know an organizationor a company or your church may
want to get involved insupporting 1042 Project's
mission of equipping, restoring,repurposing our first
(46:07):
responders, please reach out tous at 10-42projectorg.
There is a giving page on there.
We need your help.
We need your support.
If you can't give financially,please be willing to share the
word of our podcast, of ourorganization and the work that
God's doing.
Thank you and have a blessedweek.
Welcome back to another episode of the Shared
Voices podcast brought to you bythe 1042 Project.
We got Jake back with us again.
Hello Jake.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hey Dan, Glad to be here again.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
We got an awesome guest with us, Amanda.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
How you doing Amanda.
Amanda's got so much to shareand I'm so excited for her to be
here.
Guys, number one, she's a firstresponder, but apparently
everybody in her family's firstresponders um, very, very, uh
man, she's one of us guys andshe also.
I brought her on to talk aboutketamine treatment and before
you like turn this off and kindof freak out, ketamine treatment
(00:39):
is an actual legal treatmentthat is being used to help um,
people and first respondersbecause we're people too,
believe it or not, with theirmental health and some other
things.
So I'm going to bring her on totalk about that because I'm not
the specialist, but she is, andshe is actually from the Iowa
area, so we're going to have heron.
(01:00):
But before we start, I justwant to thank everybody for
listening, give you a fewupdates.
If you have not signed up to bean ambassador, if you're in the
state of Iowa or thesurrounding area and you want to
be an ambassador for ourorganization, send an email to
our to dan at 10-42 projectorgdan-42projectorg.
We're looking for more firstresponders, first responder
(01:21):
family members who want to help,get equipped to go out and to
be a light for your area, forpeople in your part of the state
to walk along other firstresponders, if your family
members to walk along otherspouses, spouses to help walk
along other spouses.
We're looking for ambassadors.
We get calls all the time offirst responders that need help,
(01:43):
need support, and we're askingyou guys to step up, be part of
our organization and volunteerto be an ambassador.
So if that sounds interestingto you, reach out Also.
Just go to 10-42projectorg Also.
We're in the need.
We're growing, we're growingquick.
We need some office space.
We're praying that God willprovide some free office space
the bigger the better to set upour podcast studios, to set up
(02:06):
our meeting rooms where we meetwith people and not counsel them
, but we coach them, talk withthem.
We bring in counselors to talkwith them.
We need a space.
We're trusting that someone outthere has got office space or
knows somebody that's got officespace that's available that
they would be willing to donateto a 501c3 to use.
So if that's you or somebodyyou know or your business,
(02:28):
please reach out to us Again.
It's dan at 10-42projectorg oryou can just call me at
515-350-6274.
And thank you.
All right, let's get started,amanda.
All right, I got a list ofquestions and I'll try not to
interrupt you as best as I can,and I'm bringing on Jake because
Jake's had some ketaminetreatments.
(02:48):
So it's like I got the patient,I've got the.
Is it a doctor?
What are we what's?
Or North practitioner, or I'lllet you say what it is.
Introduce yourself and give usa little intro.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yep, my name is Amanda Steve.
I am a physician assistantassistant and I specialize in IV
ketamine treatments andintranasal ketamine, which is
also called Spravato, and I havebeen doing that for a year and
a half now and so that's kind ofhas now become my passion,
because I've noticed how well itimproves my patient base and
(03:28):
for all the people that arestuck in their either depression
, anxiety, ptsd episodes or justeven need a mind reset.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So a couple of questions.
Are you a?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
first responder.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Is that what you told me?
Mm-hmm, all right, before we goin too deep, let's talk about
that, because I didn't know thatJake had me invite you on and
then I heard you got on here andyou said you're a your first
responder.
And the reason why I react likehuh because to me it is a big
deal, because when we have youknow, our organ is I should
probably get my microphone back.
Sorry about that amateur, but Ican go to my history for first
(03:59):
responder yeah, sorry so be ableto have for our, be able to
have our listeners and our firstresponders be able to come and
listen to another firstresponder talk about treatment,
and you're the person that givesthe treatment and you're a
first responder and a spouse ofa first responder.
I think you're the perfectperson.
So tell us about your firstresponder-ness.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yep, so I grew up in West Des Moines.
My mom was a Des Moinesfirefighter and she was a
paramedic on West Des Moines EMS.
A Des Moines firefighter andshe was a paramedic on West Des
Moines EMS.
So my entire childhood, growingup, I was part of a 911
household.
I'm actually a fourthgeneration first responder.
My grandma and my great grandmawere also dispatch police and
(04:39):
paramedics, so that's kind ofStrong woman line yes, yes.
I love it.
So initially I had had someinterest in the medical field,
but not so much.
So I ended up going to college.
When I got done I was justtrying to figure out what worked
for me and ended up taking anEMT class and that kind of got
me into the first responderoccupation.
(05:00):
I have been on a volunteer firedepartment for 10 years.
While I was there, actually, Istarted working there with my
husband and he didn't haveanything either, so we just did
it more for fun.
And then I ended up going toschool to become a physician
assistant because I figured outthat as EMTs I wanted to do more
(05:21):
for my patients.
So then I decided to go to PAschool and then I ran as a PA
exempt is what it's called so Ican run as a paramedic under the
scope of a paramedic.
So I ran as a paramedic for onthe fire department for I
graduated so it'd be seven yearsafter that as a higher level
(05:45):
care.
And then when I got my PA, Iactually work in the emergency
department.
So continuity of care ofpatients.
So when our first responderswould drop off our patients, I
would then take care of them andthen work alongside nursing
staff, which I feel like is ahuge component to the first
responder world as well.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
Wow.
You're like superwoman.
Holy cow, that's awesome.
So what?
So how did you go from that tonow we're on a podcast talking
about ketamine.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
So three, four years ago I wanted to give IV fluids
to patients because sometimessome patients just need IV
fluids instead of going to theER and getting a full workup,
getting imaging done like ifthey had the stomach bug,
stomach flu.
So I looked into what it wouldtake in order to start my own
business that way.
So we could do like mobile homeservices we could go to
(06:40):
patients' homes or they couldcome to us.
We do different events as wellBachelor parties, bachelorette
parties.
We just finished up withRAGBRAI as well, doing IV fluids
.
One of my preceptors actuallyasked me two years ago if I
would be interested in doing IVketamine.
I didn't know much about it.
(07:01):
So I started doing my research,my studying, asking the
pharmacist how it was involved.
So I did a lot of research andthen started doing IV ketamine
treatment and then Spravato cameto be a thing as well, so kind
of added that into the treatmentcourse.
So it all started with the IVfluids, hydration and then added
in the ketamine side of things.
(07:21):
So we still offer both.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Interesting.
So when she says that she isdoing ketamine, she doesn't mean
that she herself, or maybe sheis, but she's talking about
medically ministering.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So to make sure I gotta sayit's slow for the firefighters.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
No, I'm just kidding, just kidding.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
All right, wow.
So so tell me.
So let's get into some scienceof it, because first responders,
man, we're going to pick itapart.
We need some evidence, we needyou got to prove this to us.
So let's talk about somescience on how in the world
ketamine could possibly helpsomebody with PTSD depression.
What other issues can it helpwith?
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yep, how can?
Speaker 1 (08:04):
you explain that, would you?
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Yep.
So, going into the physiologypart of things, most of your
antidepressants actually inhibityour hormones, so it stops
certain hormones from occurring,so you don't have too much or
too less of hormones, whereasket um enhances your memory
formation, so how you make yourmemories, that's what it
(08:29):
essentially works on.
So certain memories will comeinto thought during your
treatment session and itactually replaces it with more
of a positive feeling, becausewhile you're on the ketamine,
you have a very what I like todescribe as a floating feeling.
So just you, you're stillpresent, you're still there, you
still know what's going on, youcan open your eyes and see
things, um, but it's more like amore positive experience versus
(08:52):
the negative thoughts thatinitially caused that memory so
what's happening during thattime?
Speaker 1 (08:59):
so so walk me into this.
I got back up here real quick,so walk me in.
So a first responder wants toget ahold of Amanda because
you're going to be opening yourclinic soon.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Yep October 1st is hopefully our date.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
October 1st and you're going to be located where
In Central Iowa?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yep West Des Moines.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
West Des Moines.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Okay, so once you're open, let's just first
responders listening and him andhis wife or her and her husband
are sitting there and they'relike, wow, we should really try
this.
And what's the next steps?
Walk us through what that isand, and a little bit of again
the next steps of how to do it,the whole process, because our
first responders need tomentally be able to see what
(09:42):
it's like.
We like to remove any and allfears that people have to get
help, and one of them is justtrying to picture it and then to
listen to somebody that's beenthrough it, like Jake.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Sure, yep.
So most patients have maybereferred by a mental health
provider, but if they don't haveone they can still call the
office and schedule a consultwith me.
And basically in the consult wekind of talk a little bit about
a history.
We don't get too too deep intothings, but we talk about just
kind of what medications they'vebeen on before to see if they
(10:13):
qualify for the Spravato andthat's the intranasal ketamine,
just because that is covered byinsurance and so essentially
that's most of the time cheaperfor patients.
Iv ketamine is also an option.
They both work the same, it'sjust one's covered by insurance,
one is not.
So they do the consult with me,we discuss the pros and cons,
(10:33):
they get the information.
They don't necessarily have toschedule right then and there
they can think about it.
I give them the informationthat they need.
So they have time to go backand research it themselves.
But once we get approval frominsurance or if they say yes, I
want to go ahead and do IVketamine, we then schedule their
treatment plan and that'sinitially twice a week for four
weeks.
(10:54):
So they come in for thetreatment session either one or
two hours depending on whattreatment they're doing, and
during that treatment.
Initially the first one,they're usually confused on what
they're supposed to be doing,so they're like I'm not sure I
like this.
But once they get into thesecond and the third, I'm sure
they can vouch for that too.
The second and the third it'slike oh okay, now I know how I'm
feeling, now I can just sithere and relax.
(11:17):
I think the most important thingis sitting, relaxing, and it's
a I always call it a spa day foryour brain.
So it actually just quiets yourbrain for all the thoughts that
we have going 24-7.
So it slows everything down.
Some sessions you'll havethoughts that come in and you're
able to process them.
Sometimes you won't have anythoughts at all, you'll just be.
(11:37):
You'll have a timeout for anhour or two hours and then after
the session you will have tohave a driver home, can't drive
until you basically take a napUm, no light big life decision,
selling your house, anythinglike that.
But then after that they canfunction as normal when they
leave the clinic.
Usually they can talk, walk asnormal.
Um, it's just they can't drive.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So so they, so they get driven home.
And then what?
Basically just chill in therecliner for a while?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Yeah, just go on with your normal day.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Are the effects still meaning that, the thoughts, the
spa for the brain, as you said?
Is that the effects of it stillhappening while you're at home
too?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
No, so usually when they leave they feel back to
normal.
So their brain just slowlycomes back to what it has been.
I've had patients go to therapyright afterwards.
It sounds like that has beenvery beneficial for the ones
that do go straight to therapy.
But you don't have to doanything in specific that day.
What I do suggest for mostpeople is to journal what they
(12:37):
feel each day just to see if wehave improvement and we do
different anxiety and depressionscreenings just to kind of see
the progression and improvementthroughout treatment.
Or if we have some setbacks,what could have caused that,
those kinds of things throughoutthe treatment sessions.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Dan, I can tell you the first, the first handful of
times I did it, I did just gostraight home and just chill.
But at this point after, afterbeing used to it, first of all
the effects, and sooner theyjust wear, it wears off sooner
and I have actually got to apoint where I like to run or
lift, uh, like when I get home.
(13:15):
Uh, I don't know, I'm probablyweird, I'm probably the anomaly
there, but it.
But my point is, by the timeyou get home you can really do
most, most anything you want.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Okay, so how's that differ, then, from man?
I've had multiple surgeries,Like when you come out of
surgery and you're so like allyou want to do is just fall back
into deep sleep and for therest of the day usually with
surgery you don't feel likedoing crap.
Obviously your body's notgetting worked on.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
but isn't it the same type of medicine that they use?
It depends on what they use forsedation.
Usually, for sedation, they usemore of a sedative versus this
one.
It's a short acting and thehalf-life comes out as soon as
you know, an hour or twoafterwards, so you really feel
back to normal.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
So it doesn't hold on like a narcotic or Correct.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
And like.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Usually, they use Versed, which is a benzodiazep,
and that's what causes you to betired.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I've had some of my best runs within the last month
after ketamine treatment.
I don't like step out the doorand just take off running.
There's usually an hour or twothat goes by, but running is
like kind of a form ofmeditation to me and so it's
just like almost a continuationof the treatment.
Treatment and and there is, Imean it is a dissociative
(14:35):
anesthetic and so there is likeoh, I believe it causes a lower,
like less has an effect oninflammation in the body.
Is that right, correct?
Speaker 1 (14:43):
in a good or bad way it decreases oh praise god.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
That's what I need to and uh, and so I just feel like
in a way I can run a little bitlonger and like a little bit
easier.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
And that's another thing too your depression is
kind of factored in with pain aswell for the patients that have
chronic pain.
So ketamine is actually alsoused for chronic pain and there
is a different dosing for that.
So we can actually treatpatients with just chronic pain
on a lower dose, and it willhelp their depression in the
long run too.
So all depending on your dosing.
We're either treatingdepression or pain, but that
(15:16):
depression level is stilltreating the pain.
I actually had a patient thatwas coming in for IV ketamine
just for pain control after ahip replacement, so it was
actually replacing the narcoticsthat they sent her home with.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Wow, that's see, that's, that's, that's double
bonus right there, because Ihave been addicted to narcotics.
That's part of my story isaddiction to hydrocodone pills,
and I'm not the only one.
It's pretty common in the firstresponder world throughout the
country.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I've had those issues too, as you know, dan, and I
can tell you that I don't.
I don't really know why theketamine does not feel to me
like it has an addictive quality, even as a guy who can get
addicted to most anything um Ijust have never.
It just has never felt that wayto me.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
I can't really say why I have had a lot of patients
ask about addiction for themedication and it's usually the
feeling that they have whilethey're on.
It is what they get addicted to.
It's not necessarily anaddiction, they just like the
way their mind rests.
So the important thing is,throughout treatment, getting to
that state without themedication in between your
(16:27):
treatment days.
So whether you go running oryou go lift or go color or watch
a movie, getting to those spotswithout that medication.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
So when people take the medicine, you walk in and
it's a nose spray, right Nosespray.
More than one, or somethingright, or a couple, yep.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Two at one time and then you wait five minutes, do
another two sprays and then,once they go up to the higher
dose, which is usually after thefirst time, then we do a third
time at 15 minutes.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Okay, so then do you just sit them in a room, and
they sit there.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yep, they sit in the room by themselves.
I've had patients have eyemassage masks to cover their
eyes.
Some patients don't like theireyes covered.
I always suggest for them tobring their own headphones so
then that way they can listen totheir own meditation music to
kind of get rid of all the othernoise that might be happening
in the office.
But usually it's pretty quietand they basically just sit
(17:25):
there.
I check their vitals when theyfirst get there and then I check
it at 40 minutes, um, and that40 minutes is usually that peak
feeling, and so when I go andcheck on them they are feeling
good, um, and then then it'sslow, they start to come down
from the sensation or the sideeffects of the ketamine and then
after two hours, like jake said, he's ready to up and go and
(17:46):
walk out of there without anyproblems dan, my experience the
first couple times I went inthere like amanda said,
especially the first time I didI had no idea what was going to
happen and when I left I waskind of like what?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I feel better, but what was that?
Like, it just kind of was likea hurricane that came and came
and went pretty quick.
But once I got to know, youknow like what the purpose of it
was and I did some reading andyou know some, got on reddit and
got some.
You know, like what the purposeof it was and I did some
reading and you know some, goton Reddit and got some.
You know other people'sexperiences.
I started using an eye mask andheadphones and, especially for
(18:19):
those of us with ADHD, I feltthat without the, without the
eye mask and without some musicI was just getting, I was
getting distracted by everything.
Even even even under this youknow, somewhat sedated state or
relaxed state, I just was, I wasgoing and I was just thinking
about anything and everythingand it was just kind of useless.
But if I can block off my, myeyes and my and just you know,
(18:41):
pick the right kind of music.
There are some Spotifyplaylists that are actually
called like best ketamineplaylist or like ketamine
treatment or like deep recoveryfor ketamine, and I've tried a
couple of those and that's whenI really can just let, like she
said, I can kind of let.
It's almost like EMDR, you kindof just want to let whatever
comes up, come up.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
And that's when I've got the most benefit out of it.
And with those videos and thatmusic that you've used during
treatment, if you ever have asituation where you're not in
ketamine treatment and it islike a stressful trigger, I
always suggest using thosevideos, listening to them again
without that ketamine, so thenthat kind of brings you down to
the level of you know duringyour treatment session.
So it's kind of also a goodoutlet too in the event that you
(19:27):
can't get to a you know aketamine treatment if you're
having you know either can't getto a, you know, a ketamine
treatment.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
If you're having, you know either nightmares, night
terrors uh, ptsd episode that Iwould assume.
That's because you're probablyforming a some sort of pathway
interesting.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
I didn't know that.
I yeah, that's beneficial to mepotentially.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yep, so that because it's it's there's actual science
going on inside the brain.
When you take the medicineright like it's, it's it's
helping, helping us go back tothe pathways, cause, if I
remember right from the doctor Iheard over in Chicago Um, yeah,
I don't know.
Just explain that to me more,because doesn't it change, like
the neural pathways where youcan like change your thought
(20:06):
processes and stuff?
Speaker 3 (20:08):
So and Jake's probably has heard this field
before Um, so I basicallydescribe it as a blanket of snow
on your memory.
So you have your memories andthen you have a blanket of snow
that goes down.
It doesn't erase your memories,they're still there, but you're
responsible for making newtracks of your memories going
forward.
So they'll come up during thetreatment session with the
ketamine and then you make thosenew positive, feeling positive
(20:30):
tracks and some things may comeup that you didn't realize
bothered you and you process itin a different way and then
therefore have a better outlookof something else.
And I will say ketamine is niceas far as you don't have to
talk to people about things.
I feel like in the firstresponder world.
We, like you said before, youknow we are.
(20:51):
We have to be those pillars, wehave to be strong for everybody
else.
Sometimes it's hard to expressthat information.
So this ketamine is used tohelp process the stuff that
bothers you without verbalizingit.
Yes, verbalizing it helps, butit may help in the future with a
therapist at a different timeor a friend or a family member,
(21:12):
but it makes it less traumaticbringing up that topic later.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
So what if you're like me and you just my brain a
lot of times will defaultnegative everything.
So what if you go in there, youtake your ketamine treatment
and you're remembering yourmemories but you're not making
new positive pathways.
You're living them, relivingthe trauma of it or the stress
and the anxiety like will thatcome back or does this kind of
depress that?
Speaker 3 (21:38):
It helps depress that there has been a couple of
patients in which they havebecome more anxious because of
the treatment sessions.
So ketamine works on depression, um.
So usually you have youranxiety and your depression and
they're like leveling each otherout.
This takes care of thedepression.
So you feel less depressed.
If anything, you feel a littlebit more anxious.
So it's more managing thatanxiousness because it doesn't
(22:00):
have that depression tocounteract it.
We do have a couple of differentmodalities as far as um.
Jake hasn't tried this one yet,but it's called alpha stem.
It's basically like aneurotransmitter, like a TENS
unit on your ears that I've usedwith patients that are
extremely anxious, but it helpsground them if they do have a
more anxiety provoking session.
But usually with those if Ihave patients that need that are
(22:24):
having a bad session, which isvery, very rare I will sit in
there and we will walk throughthings.
So it's not like they're inthere by themselves, it's just
they got to.
Let me know if that does comeabout, cause if not, I just kind
of let them be, or we kind ofchange the modality or get them
up, walk them to the bathroom,come back, reset and restart, do
you?
Speaker 1 (22:44):
give them something to think about, or just here
here.
Here you go, relax and we'llcheck on you a little bit, and
you just know that their brainwill naturally start to feel
like, think positive and workits way through the thoughts.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Correct and if you try and go one direction versus
the other and fight it.
Sometimes that can cause somefrustration with the treatment
session.
So a lot of times I say, okay,focus, brain brings about um,
versus tracking it one direction.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Cool, Go ahead Jake.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I, when I at the time that I started ketamine
treatment, I was severelydepressed to a level that I
didn't I hadn't even shared withanybody.
Uh, I was suicidal almost allthe time and I didn't see a
purpose to doing anything.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
And.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I had also.
I mean I should mention that Iwas also doing therapy.
I was also seeing anotherprovider in the same office for
regular medication management.
I had done EMDR, I had donesomatic processing with the
trauma coach.
I had, I mean I had I had donea lot of other things.
So it's hard to say for sure itwas only ketamine.
But what I can tell you is thatbefore ketamine I had a really
(23:53):
hard time getting rid of thatdepression.
And even now I mean I'm at apoint now where my next
appointment isn't until I'mstretching them out every two
weeks and and I just I haven'thad, I haven't had one of those
thoughts and I don't know howlong.
And it's it's like almost.
I almost don't even believe itmyself because it just kind of
went away, and it's not that Iintentionally did anything other
(24:16):
than go to the clinic and dothe treatments.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Wow, that's a testimony right there.
If you guys listen and seriously, I mean I don't need to be the
voice of it.
I mean, jake just told you.
I mean it may not work for you,but he's telling you what
worked for him.
I mean, no matter what you sayabout Spravato or ketamine, it
doesn't change his experience.
It's helped him and I thinkthat's pretty cool.
And I think as first responders,we can sometimes be closed off
(24:42):
to help like this.
And maybe it's upsetting somepeople that I'm even talking
about it on the podcast, but I Iseen that there's nothing wrong
with this.
It's just like any othermedicine.
It's not.
I heard somebody say it.
They might've been at thatconference Like, oh, so it's
just a legal way for you guys tosit around and be high, and
it's like no, I think there'smore to that.
(25:02):
It's not a bunch of people justsitting around watching and
dazed and confused, takingketamine.
Um, because this is this ishelp.
That's out there and try it.
It may work for you.
Um, I cannot honestly like Ican.
I wish your clinic was open soI could get started.
(25:23):
I want to get started, um, butI'll be patient.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
I know there's some other clinics out there that do
that, which is awesome, um andone thing too, with um, our
clinic, what I'm really going tofocus on as well.
The biggest thing is finding aride.
The logistics of it is probablythe hardest part.
The easiest part is coming tothe appointment and sitting and
having a break.
So we are actually going towork with our patients as far as
transportation goes If theydon't have a ride, working with
(25:48):
them and pairing up with Lyft orUber or having our own driver.
So that will also be a benefitto our patients.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Smart, yeah, because, yeah, some, some people may
have the time to do it, but theymay not have a buddy or a
spouse that's able to come andsit for an hour or two.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yep, yep, and our hours.
Initially before it was eightto five, but my plan is to allow
for some nighttime hours justfor people who work an eight to
five job, and then a potentiallya Saturday as well.
Um, so we'll kind of see whatthe need is and work with our
patients and make sure that theyget the help that they need.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Okay, and so I got to ask questions, cause I just got
another one.
Why can't people, why isn'tthis legislated to, where people
can use bravado at home intheir bed?
I mean, what is the concern forit to be medically supervised?
Because for some people that'swhat they're thinking and
(26:44):
honestly, it was one of my firstthoughts, but then I know that
there's a reason why there'smedical supervision over this,
so you want to kind of explainthat a little bit.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
So some of the adverse side effects it may
cause an increase in bloodpressure.
So patients as they come inhave to have at least a
controlled blood pressure.
Usually the first time it is alittle elevated just because
they're a little nervous withtheir first session.
But the concern is the elevatedblood pressure and I have had
some patients that dissociate alittle bit more than others,
usually the older population.
(27:14):
So we kind of start with thelower dose and monitor closer
because it's just good to have amedical provider to redirect.
There are some home ketaminetreatment options available, but
it's a sublingual tablet andyou have to check in with a
provider before and after thesession.
But again, my thing is ifthere's an adverse reaction, at
(27:37):
least in the clinic somebody cansee them, can manage them and
help them walk them throughthings, cause there's some times
that I couldn't even imagine ifthe patient side effect would
have been would happen at home.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Right, and it's always so much better to do
supervised care.
I mean, I know there's othercares out there that you can do.
You can get online and kind ofdo it backdoor wise, but it's
very important to do it in asafe way with somebody who's
medically trained.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Get away from your house and go to a place that's
quiet and meant for relaxationand quiet, Jake, when you were
in there.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Jake, when you were in there you know PTSD, it's
what a lot of us deal with Didyou?
When you're sitting in there,do you worry at all, Like you
know somebody coming in?
You know what I mean.
Like we don't put our backs tothe doors in restaurants, right?
So when you're in there, do youfeel safe?
Right, you've told me you feelsafe.
Like you don't feel like youcan put your, like you feel like
you can put your guard downwhen you're in their office
(28:30):
You're not worried about.
You know you're able to relaxwithout worrying about somebody
coming in and attacking you, ordo you know what I'm saying?
You know how our brain messeswith us.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Yeah, initially that was a big concern of mine and it
was a reason that I talkedmyself out of doing ketamine
therapy several different times.
I knew that it would likely putme in a state of what I just
thought of as vulnerability.
Not that I thought there's, youknow.
You know madmen running arounda clinic all the time.
But I, just like you're saying,you get really paranoid as a
(28:58):
first responder, especially whenyou develop mental health
conditions.
And so Amanda was the onlyperson that I had really ever
known of or met that I waswilling to do it with, because I
had a personal connection and Iknew she understood first
responders in a different way.
And so, yeah, getting startedwith her was, for me, probably
the only way I was gonna do it.
(29:20):
I can say, looking back, that Iwas just being a little too
extra about that, because now,like Amanda said, she's parted
ways with the clinic and I stillreceive treatments from that
clinic currently, and at thispoint I'm used to it and it
doesn't matter to me what'sgoing on around me or who's
involved.
Uh, I know, I just know.
(29:42):
I know how it goes.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
So, um, overall I would say, yeah, you definitely
want to establish a some levelof trust and understanding with
whoever your provider is goingin, but it just gets easier over
time once you know what what'sgoing to happen so I know some
people that's had, that's beenin the military, that when they
(30:04):
get surgeries done they have tolet the military know they bring
somebody in to be in thesurgical room during it to make
sure that the person doesn't sayanything.
That's protected governmentstuff, because you hear people
when they go into surgery orwhatever.
All of a sudden they startloopy and they're talking about
things they shouldn't be talkingabout or whatever.
All of a sudden they startloopy and they're talking about
things they shouldn't be talkingabout.
When somebody comes in andthey're on a ketamine treatment,
is it all of a sudden you'rejust spewing out everything and
(30:28):
acting a fool, or you have fullcontrol over your body, your
voice, what you say.
It's not like you're drunk onvodka or anything like that.
Right, you have control of your.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
You have control.
But I kind of relate it alittle bit to drinking like you
still know what you're saying,um, and you still have control
of saying it.
But it's not a you don'tremember what you said type of
thing, um, and honestly, peopleare so relaxed like they don't
really care to say much to me.
Usually I just check in and seehow they're doing and if
they're having any side effects.
If not, just leave them be andcheck their vitals and leave
(31:06):
them in the way.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
The way I feel personally I don't know if this
is everybody's experience is Iuh?
I wouldn't say like I'm afraidto say something, but I I'm not
afraid to say that I've smokedmarijuana before and I've smoked
and I've been too high, and ifyou can relate to that, you can
get to a point where you're likeafraid to say anything because
you feel like you're going tosound stupid, and that's that's
(31:28):
kind of how it is for me.
I don't really want to talk toanybody because I feel like I'm
going to sound weird or saysomething off the wall.
Amanda maybe has heard me saysomething awful, I don't know,
but it makes me not want to talkat all personally.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
So if you walk in and you're stressed out because you
have all this stuff going on inyour life and you've got to get
your treatment, because you gotthis going on and your life's
going, so you go in there, youget treatment and you sit down
and you're thinking about thisbig thing at work, can you then
switch that off and think aboutget down to the core issues that
you're really dealing with?
Kind of get.
Sometimes I have troublegetting past that, that, that
(32:03):
main level of distraction, toeven calm my brain to where it's
in a situation where it's I canhave a safe place to encounter
healing.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
So it kind of gets that business out of your head
and you're able to calm.
Yes, so all those thoughts willslowly come down and you may
even just start picking one way,start thinking about this one.
Okay, you're going to do thislater.
I hope we want to make sure wedo this so it puts into a filing
cabinet, so you do one file ata time and able to process it,
whether it's the stuff you gotto do today, but usually it's
not.
Usually your mind takes you acompletely different route and
(32:38):
you're able to work on somethings that you do need to work
on.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Cool route, um and you're able to work on some
things that you do need to workon.
Cool, I going in, I've, I'vegone in very relaxed and very
worked up and there is adifference.
Um, you get benefits both, bothways, uh for sure.
Uh, and you come out of thetreatment feeling much better,
no matter what the times thatI've had a half an hour or an
hour beforehand to myself to tomeditate, to get myself centered
(33:03):
and grounded, I've gotten muchmore out of it.
But, as we know, when we havePTSD and other mental health
conditions like depression,anxiety, that's not always
possible.
So I have gone in there just onedge and it's still been, still
been fun, it's still been veryhelpful.
I just think if you can groundyourself, it's more beneficial.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Have you ever walked out with more anxiety be honest?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
no, not even close just curious.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
You know, I just it's nice to know that it'll it can
call me like that, becausesometimes that's where most of
us have trouble is getting thatthat, that buzzing noise of
busyness and craziness, to calmdown you, you really got to
focus or not focus you should.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
You should be careful about who picks you up.
I'll say that and what.
What condition they are inCause I have had some times
where I've been picked up and Iunpack that.
What's that?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Unpack that.
What do you?
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (33:57):
So I've had.
I've had times where I come outof there just feeling really
good and like introspective andjust ready to kind of like build
on that through the rest of theday or the afternoon.
And if I've been picked up bysomeone who is very anxious or
just, you know, just came froman overstimulating environment,
that energy can kind of thoseenergies can clash a little bit.
(34:19):
And again, it's not that itdoesn't make it, it doesn't ruin
it, but if you can pick upsomeone who understands, or
again can be picked up bysomeone who understands what you
just did and will support youcorrectly, that's better, that's
ideal.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
No, that's good to know.
That's the type of informationwe want to be able to share, is
what's the smoothest route forfirst responders to go through,
and that's good.
So maybe not get picked up bythe wife who is ready to beat
you to death because of all theyou know.
Maybe get picked up by somebodywho doesn't want to wants to
add peace to your life.
At the moment I don't know whatyou're talking about, Dan.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
I was talking about you I will say to you, if some
people a little bit more anxious, coming in for a couple other
visits or just want somebody tosit with them, they can't have
family members sit with them.
I do.
We do allow that you can have.
If you want to do a treatmentsession with your spouse, as
long as they've gone through thesame clearance always an option
which, which I think that'sbeneficial as well.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
So just allowing them to process things together to
understand the treatment plan aswell.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
That is huge.
You can have people come in andsit with you.
That's awesome.
So if you do have that fear ofI don't want to go in there and
be vulnerable and all that stuff, okay, bring somebody with you.
Yep, somebody who.
Yep, somebody calm, bringsomebody with you.
That's one of the Yep or yourtrauma coach.
(35:54):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Been through it before.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
And again, a lot of this podcast is for awareness.
If you guys don't, if you'reafraid to go to the amanda's
clinic by yourself, reach out tojake or I will go with you.
I'm gonna go absolutely.
You don't have to do this alone.
Go ahead, jake.
What?
Speaker 2 (36:11):
were you gonna say?
I said absolutely I'd be, youknow, more than willing to help.
However I can with that, I I do.
You know we talked before westarted recording about I have
plans to put together specificprograms for before and after,
what to expect and then how tointegrate it afterwards and some
of my own takeaways, that typeof thing.
But yeah, absolutely I would.
I would, definitely I'd bewilling to.
(36:32):
You know, when it comes to afirst responder, especially a
first responder in crisis, justyeah, call, we can talk about it
, we can talk all the waythrough it beforehand.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Do you journal?
Speaker 2 (36:44):
When I can sit still long enough.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, I'm just curious.
It's very valuable.
I've just kind of been one ofthose people too that I have
trouble with it.
I know now they have these whatdo they call them, these
journals where you just do likeone line a day for the same day
every year.
It's like a five-year journalor something like that.
But it's very valuable and Iheard you say that, amanda,
about journaling because whenyou start the healing process of
(37:08):
healing from PTSD anddepression and that kind of
stuff, as you start to heal, youalmost kind of forget where you
were.
So to be able to journal yourjourney of healing, even if it's
just once a week even, but even, you know, once a day, to be
able to journal your thoughtsand feelings for a little while
as you're going through yourhealing, you will then be able
(37:28):
to go back and look and seewhere you were and all the
progress that you actually made.
On the days where you are sadand depressed and don't want to
get out of bed because you feellike you've made no progress,
out of bed, because you feellike you've made no progress,
these journals can go back andhelp you realize the struggles
you've gone through, thestrength you've you've used to
overcome those.
The growth you've made, causewe want to be focused on that.
(37:52):
When we're down on our down inour dumps or having an episode
is we want to focus on thepositive stuff we've been doing,
cause as soon as we get out ofthat bad episode, it's time to
get right back on the horse andwe start getting right back into
healing and we give ourselfgrace and healing and we move
forward.
Um, I would really advise youguys that are listening to check
this out.
I'm going to check it out.
(38:12):
I'm going to, I'm going to do apodcast on it when I get done,
when I do some treatments, Iwant to air it.
I want to talk to you guysabout it.
My own experience and Amanda.
So October 1st is we're hopingfor somewhere around there for
an opening date and that's notpoured in concrete yet.
But if somebody wants to getstarted now, is there anything
they can do to reach out to youor do we just kind of need to
(38:35):
hold off for right now?
Speaker 3 (38:38):
They can feel free to call me.
Call me, text me, message me.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
What do you, what do you prefer?
Speaker 3 (38:46):
Uh, probably text.
So then that way if I'm in themiddle of something, I can at
least um take some time andrespond or call them when I have
a moment.
I am a mom of two boys and busytrying to get um all my
charting and all my meetingsdone, uh, so I can make sure I
take some time for people and Ican do a telehealth visits to
beforehand, just even to consultand discuss the treatment plan,
(39:07):
before we actually have thedoors.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
And what's that number?
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yep 515-822-6384.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Okay, so that's 515-822-6384.
Just one more time 515-822-6384.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
That's for revitalize , For IV hydration, IV ketamine
or intranasal ketamine or justmental health evaluation.
Talking resources from a firstresponder.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
What was the first thing you said in that list?
Speaker 3 (39:45):
IV hydration.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Okay.
So a lot of times they'redealing with first responders
who are trying to get better,trying to get sober right, and
they go through that detox phasewhere it's very painful and
ugly and it's awful.
Yes, um, can that help withthat?
(40:05):
The rehydration deal yes yep,that's great, because I've been
through that when you'redetoxing.
It's no fun and a lot of it isfluid issues.
Yeah, yep okay so then you havethat, the ketamine treatment
treatment Awesome.
So they don't have so to goback, they don't?
It doesn't have to be theirdoctor that refers them, but it
(40:28):
can be.
But if not, they can godirectly to you and they can
have a consult.
Consult with you.
They don't have to go throughtheir main provider.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
And.
But it can speed up the processif their mental health provider
basically sends over their lastoffice note.
Uh, just to get things goingfor insurance quicker.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Okay, makes sense.
And then so insurance.
You said insurance covers it,but how much do they cover?
And I know every insurance isdifferent, but Blue Cross, Blue
Shield is a big one around hereand I know they have multiple
different plans but whatgenerally is the out-of-price
cost for somebody that comes tothe clinic if their insurance?
Speaker 3 (41:06):
So the way there's a couple different ways to do it.
So right now I'm only chargingan office visit.
So whatever a normal officevisit would be, as you go to a
mental health provider or adoctor's office and then the
pharmacy contacts them directlyfor the drug cost.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
OK, so that goes through the pharmacy, then
Gotcha.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Correct.
So all depending on if you havea tier, a copay for insurance
for meds or if you have a highdeductible.
Essentially you have to do outof pocket high deductible until
your deductible is met.
I pay.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
I don't know how much is ordered every time you can
speak to this, amanda, but it'swhen it's the drug is ordered.
I pay $18.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
And then each time I go to the office it's a $10
copay.
Wow, that Okay.
Okay, I was thinking like ahundred or 200.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
And I don't have.
I have, I have health partnersthrough unity point, which is
notoriously not great, so Iwould imagine there's better
plans.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Yeah, and initially it may seem like a lot of money
when they first get contacted bythe pharmacy.
However, there's multiple copaycards, there's different things
that they can get money back.
So there's definitely as far asthe provider side of things
that they work with the patientsto make sure it's affordable.
And then there's also one thatsomebody doesn't make enough
money, can't pay for it.
It's like a grant, essentially,and they automatically send the
(42:28):
medication at no cost to thepatient.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Awesome, yeah, so that's great to know.
I never would have known.
So it actually goes throughyour drug coverage plan for that
side of it and then your sideof it, the doctor's side, comes
out of the okay.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
And then, as far as insurances go, I'll just kind of
cover those real quick.
So I take Blue Cross, blueShield, working on United
Healthcare.
Health Partners is another one.
We'll be taking Medicare aswell, and then cash price for
the IV ketamine.
If I don't take any of theinsurances, or if it is an
insurance that we can workthrough and work on
credentialing all the based offof the patient, an insurance
(43:02):
that we can work through andwork on credentialing all based
off of the patient's need, wecan work on that.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Okay and I get asked this all the time Some of our
first responders, especiallyones that are retired or left
the job early do you guys takestate insurance?
I assume not.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Not Medicaid right now, but we do take Medicare.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Okay, you do take Medicare.
Good to know, that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
I will say, though, medicare usually it's very
expensive because the co-paycards do not qualify, so a lot
of times with them it's cheaperif you just do the.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
IV.
Yeah, okay, well cool, ourtime's kind of wrapping up here,
but thank you so much.
That was a wealth ofinformation.
Again, we're going to have youon again, if you will allow us
to bring you back on um, andwhen you get your clinic open, I
want to be one of your firstpatients, so maybe you and I
should get started on the, theuh, the pre-stuff, the
pre-paperwork and all that kindof stuff to get going um.
(43:55):
And I recommend you guys, if, ifyou think this might be a good
treatment, um, pray about it,talk to your spouse about it,
but there's multiple.
I know there's treatment, prayabout it, talk to your spouse
about it, but there's multiple.
I know there's multipledifferent treatments out there
to help first responders.
This is another one and this isone that I've heard great
things about.
It's one that I've heard helpedchange lives.
I mean, jake said that earlieris one of the things that helped
him the most.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
Yeah, I was just going to say look me up on
social media Facebook, instagram.
Jake Ville on Facebook.
At Jake Ville on Instagram.
Send me a message if you wantto talk about it, totally
confidential, I'll tell youeverything that you want to know
based on my own experience.
I'm not not Amanda, but ifyou're not ready to, you know,
actually call the clinic.
(44:36):
You just want to talk to aformer cop who's done it?
Just feel free to look me up onsocial media.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Cool.
Well, thank you guys.
That was fun.
I learned a lot and I'm reallyexcited.
Man, I wish your clinic was opentoday, but I'm excited you're
I'm glad that you are are takingthat leap of faith, because I
think it'll be very fruitful,not just for you, but very
fruitful for all of yourpatients and the healing they
can get.
And thank you for doing that,and I know it that, and I know
(45:04):
it won't be.
You know it won't be a perfectride as you go through this from
this day on, but there's goingto be ups and downs and I just
thank you for be willing to stepin and take that battle for us.
I think it's cool.
I really think that, especiallythe more we talk about it, the
more first responders will reachout and add this to their, to
(45:24):
their, to their treatment plan.
So thank you, amanda Again.
Her number is 515-822-6384.
Get ahold of her.
Also, you can reach out to usat our podcast at
10-42projectorg.
Jake and Amanda, thank you somuch you guys have been a
blessing and see you next week.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Thanks Dan.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yep.
And that wraps up anotherepisode from the 10 42 project
shared voices podcast.
Thank you for tuning in andjust a reminder we are a five oh
one, C, three.
If you guys can support us, youcan go to our website.
Or if you know an organizationor a company or your church may
want to get involved insupporting 1042 Project's
mission of equipping, restoring,repurposing our first
(46:07):
responders, please reach out tous at 10-42projectorg.
There is a giving page on there.
We need your help.
We need your support.
If you can't give financially,please be willing to share the
word of our podcast, of ourorganization and the work that
God's doing.
Thank you and have a blessedweek.
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