May 26, 2025 • 42 mins
What happens when the people we count on to save us are themselves drowning in trauma? Mike and Pam Morrison offer a lifeline through their powerful story of survival, healing, and redemption.
After 28 years in law enforcement, Mike Morrison knows the weight of trauma first-hand. From his early days as a dispatcher and jail officer to his later roles as detective, sergeant, and lieutenant, each traumatic experience slowly transformed him. His wife Pam brings an equally profound perspective as a former RN, death investigator, and forensic autopsy technician who served with DMORT at mass fatality incidents like the devastating Joplin tornado.
Their raw honesty about career stress shatters the silence that often surrounds first responder mental health. "The danger is secrecy and the isolation," Mike explains, describing how the culture of silence becomes "almost cultish" in how it traps those suffering. Meanwhile, Pam reveals how trauma can build quietly until it suddenly emerges: "Cumulative trauma that you don't understand till later affected me."
What makes their story exceptional isn't just their struggles but their journey to healing. From EMDR therapy that helped Pam process traumatic death notifications to their therapy dog Luna, who instinctively identifies officers in crisis at trauma retreats, the Morrisons offer practical paths forward. Their formula for survival—"faith, family, and friends, in that order"—has sustained their 40-year marriage despite challenges that statistically end many first responder relationships.
You can learn about the Haymarket Center's (Intensive Supportive Retreat for First Responders & Essential Emergency Personnel). Mike and Pam have attended the program and fell in love with it so much that they now volunteer their time, talent, and treasure to walk along with other first responders going through the program. Information for the program is linked. https://haymarketcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/1-2025-Haymarket-Retreat-Flyer.pdf
For those currently struggling, their message resonates with urgency and hope: healing is possible, but it requires reaching out. As Mike powerfully states, "One of the biggest lies is that nobody can help you." If you're a first responder or love someone who is, this conversation might be the permission you need to finally seek the help that could save a life, a career, or a family.
Contact 10-42 Project at 10-42project.org, email dan@10-42project.org or call 515-350-6274. Remember No one walks alone.
If you or someone you know is in crisis and at risk of self-harm, please call or text 988, the suicide and crisis lifeline.
To contact us directly send an email to Dan@10-42project.org or call 515-350-6274
Visit our website! 10-42project.org
Check us out on social media!
Youtube: @1042project
Facebook: www.facebook.com/1042project
Instagram: 1042_project
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back to the Shared Voices podcast from the
1042 Project.
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
We are so blessed.
Today we have a husband andwife power couple joining us,
Mike and Pam Morrison.
They have served our communityso well for so long and I'm
excited to introduce you to themso you guys can hear how God's
(00:24):
moved through their life, someof their ups and downs, like all
of us go through this amazingcouple I've been blessed to know
since my teenage years, MikeGoing way back when I was a
little teenage punk and we weregoing on church trips up to the
boundary waters of Minnesota, upto the Boundary Waters of
Minnesota.
And here we are.
I never would have thought backthen that we'd be sitting here,
(00:46):
both retired law enforcementand with your beautiful wife,
Pam.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So thank you guys for joining us.
It's our pleasure.
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Absolutely.
So.
You guys, we're just going tokick back, have some fun here
we're going to.
You know, our listeners are.
They're listening becausethey're listening for a reason.
You know, this isn't one ofthose podcasts where people just
listen who have no interest in.
You know, it's not just ageneral podcast, right, we're
very specific and, um, so thepeople that are listening are
listening for a reason.
(01:18):
They're listening because theythey have gone through, you know
, a lot of the same stuff thatwe have gone through, the three
of us, through our jobs, throughthe stress, through the trauma,
and some are doing well andsome are not doing well.
We also have a lot of peoplethat join us, that are family
members and have friends, thatare first responders, that are
looking for a little bit ofadvice, a little bit of
(01:38):
perspective, a way to understandand to help their loved ones
find healing, to find peaceagain, because we all know that
trauma steals our joy, it stealsour peace, it steals our
relationships, and so we'regoing to kick back, we're going
to have some fun.
I want to hear a little bitabout you guys, and I know you
got a dog in the room, thetherapy dog, luna, the big
(01:59):
sweetie.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Oh, she's over here Come here Luna girl.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
There, she is All right.
Can you move it closer?
Luna, dogs are so much fun andI love how the therapy dogs just
you know, and when we go outand give talks, when we're going
out to the academies ordepartments to talk, being able
to bring Luna and being able tobring other therapy dogs out
there is so empowering.
So, mike, let's start with you,buddy, I've known you the
(02:30):
longest.
Tell me a little bit about yourcareer, some of the ups and
some of the downs, and why theheck do you guys spend time out
of your day trying to bringlight to other first responders
and their families?
I'd love to hear a little bitabout that light to other first
responders and their families.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I'd love to hear a little bit about that man.
That's a lot.
Well, yeah, I'm mike and Iworked at warren county
sheriff's office at indianolafor 28 years.
I started out there in 1989.
Um, you know, I started outworking on the radio, up in the
dispatch center and working inthe jail and I worked doing that
(03:12):
type of roles andresponsibilities for about five
years and then I moved out topatrol, moved out to patrol and
I taught the DARE program for afew years and got to go to
several different schooldistricts in the Warren County
(03:36):
community and I worked oninvestigations, criminal
investigations, and was adetective there for many years
and was a sergeant and a chiefdeputy and I was a retired as a
lieutenant at the sheriff'soffice there and you know I had
(03:59):
many interesting experiences.
But you know, dan, I was alwayshurting Everybody hurts and I
had many years where there wasmuch pain but there was much joy
as well.
So, working through thattogether and, you know, with my
(04:20):
wife, pam and she was a nursefor many years and a death
investigator all kinds ofdifferent responsibilities, but
we did that together Oftentimes.
There were several times wherewe would show up at the same
case together, and so it waskind of comical at times, you
(04:43):
know, and we just I had a lot ofpeople that helped me through
that, and one of the things youasked me was well, why would you
(05:17):
want to do that?
Why would you want to serve thecommunity?
Why would you want to helpother people and bring the light
of Jesus Christ to a lost anddying world?
Well, that was me, and so, fora guy like me, walking down the
street and feeling dead on theinside as a young father and
(05:39):
trying to find my way through my, to find my way through my
adult life, I had people thatministered to me and people that
shared Christ with me andtaught me how I could live a
life that while there's pain,there's also joy.
And joy comes in the morning,and I love that about how God
(06:00):
works in our lives and worksthrough other people's lives to
help us, because that's whywe're here is to help other
people.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Wow, that's a.
You've got quite the quite thecareer.
My friend, I didn't realize youdid dispatching as well.
Dispatching jailing, and andand the deputy.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Answering 911 calls.
We had the first.
You know, in Warren County wedidn't always have 911.
And when I first started therewe had just got 911, where you
could see the phone number thatwas actually calling for
emergency services.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Now you're dating yourself here, buddy.
Yeah, and then we got enhanced911, where you could actually
see the address where that phonephone line uh that'd be yeah
that had to be a whole differentworld, because when I came in
we had you know well, not atfirst, but eventually we had the
computers where the addresseswould pop up, we had gps.
You, old boys, didn't have thatman, you had a we had a paper
(07:00):
map, if you're lucky and it wasturned left by the cemetery.
Down to the Johnson's house andtake a right McKee Hill.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
McKee Hill.
We have paper and pen.
That's what we had Back when.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
I was a kid.
You started in 89 and I didn'tgraduate high school till 98.
So here we go.
You probably got underwearolder than me.
That just aged us so, pam man,you, uh, you did you.
You did a job I could neverimagine doing.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
I couldn't imagine I was minding my own business,
being an rn in the NICU withlittle one-pound babies on
weekends.
Then Mike came up to me andsaid there's an opening that I
think you would like as a deathinvestigator in Warren County.
(07:54):
I ended up doing that for nineyears and I just felt like it
was to be able to do that joband it must just be something
that the Lord helped me to doand it didn't bother me.
(08:19):
But then a cumulative traumathat you don't understand till
later affected me.
But always wanting to learn,then I was a forensic autopsy
tech at the state of Iowamedical examiner's office
because I wanted to see what Iwas seeing at the scenes
(08:39):
internally.
So I did that for about two anda half years internally.
So I did that for about two anda half years.
And then there's a federal teamthat I was a part of for.
Another nine years of.
We're sent.
It's called DMORT and we aresent for mass fatalities.
(09:00):
And so I also did that, andpeople would ask me how do you
get any job satisfaction?
You know, with that kind of ajob, but helping the survivors
know what happened to theirloved one and you know, if there
(09:22):
was fears that they suffered,being able to tell them no, they
died immediately.
And whenever I would leaveafter my investigation, I would
tell them.
I just want you to know thatI'll pray for you and whether
they were Christian or not,there was always that
(09:43):
appreciative glance they wouldgive me.
And then 2011 was when Joplinwas hit by a tornado that was
the highest level EF5.
But the difference that made itso deadly was it stayed on the
(10:07):
ground for 30 minutes and therewere 150 people that died.
And so I was sent there andworking 12 to 16 hour shifts, we
went through 147 bodies that wewere able to 100% identify, and
(10:32):
just doing that and thinkingyou know God's gift was to help
me be able to do that there wasstill the trauma that I didn't
see brewing up.
And so, now that I'm done withthose jobs, I have taken on our
(10:57):
brunadoodle, luna, and she hasbecome an important part of our
lives.
I got her certified as a firstresponder therapy dog and she's
there available for free to comeand just help ground people.
(11:21):
And the reason I'm so passionateabout it was if we would have
had a dog like luna in joplinfor all those long days, it
would have helped so much.
And so, um, we go to um thetrauma retreats and um they're
(11:42):
four days, and um it's to helpwith first responders in Chicago
, and I've been to 10, but weadded Luna, she was still only
one, but she worked the room,she found those that needed her
(12:02):
the most and is just amazing.
And so she's been to five ofthem already and is a true hit.
I told them I couldn't attend aretreat and they said well,
you'll still send luna right no,so and the dog if you can't
(12:25):
come yeah, they don't care aboutme, it's Luna, right?
No, so Send the dog if you can'tcome.
Yeah, they don't care about me,it's the dog.
But Luna has opened the doorsfor people and I've been told
before at these retreats that wesaved people's lives and I
believe that Luna could tell whoneeded it.
(12:47):
And there was an officer who wedidn't know.
He was teetering on the edge ofsuicide and Luna picked up on
that.
She sat by him the whole fourdays retreat and just sort of
opened up him to start thehealing and he's doing very well
(13:10):
now.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
That's amazing.
Your guys' story is prettypowerful.
I mean what you guys have beenthrough.
And you know I wasn't there forall your career, for your whole
career, obviously, but I wasthere for some of the the end.
And for those that don't know,we are out of iowa, um, I work
for the indian police departmentand mike worked for the warren
county sheriff's department,which is the county that I live
(13:34):
in.
Um, so he was out running therural area and I was in the city
, um, but in iowa we, uh, wework tight with each other.
We back each other up thereother up.
There's not a lot of us out, sowe're out there to back each
other up.
And I've been able to see andbe on some of the calls that
Mike's been on.
I've been the officer on deathscenes who was calling Pam to
(13:58):
have her show up to do the deathinvestigation, while I would
sit there with the family orjust sometimes sit in the room
with a dead body or alongside ofthe road.
So I got to get to know youguys.
You know not only way back whenat church, I also got to know
you guys in your professionalcareer.
And the interesting part, mike,is and I say this a lot, but you
(14:23):
and I were both hurting at thesame time and either one of us
knew it- yes.
And I'm and I'm learning fromtalking to fellow officers.
I used to work with um otherofficers in the area.
Boy, everybody was goingthrough trauma.
Everybody was going through um,the symptoms of trauma, ptsd,
the not sleep and the stress,and none of us were talking
(14:46):
about it.
It just wasn't something wetalked about.
It was kind of a lease that Iremember in my situations.
A lot of it was just suck it up, buttercup, you keep your mouth
shut, you go to your next call,go home, go to bed, don't tell
your wife about anything, hideit all and hope that it'll go
away and obviously it never does.
But if you don't mind sharing,mike and I'll ask both of you,
(15:08):
but I'll start with Mike firstFrom your career, with the
trauma that you saw and thestruggles that you had, are you
willing to share what some ofthose were and how you kind of
knew, or once you knew, that youneeded help?
Was it after your career, was itduring it?
And then, what types oftreatments have you guys tried
(15:29):
that have worked or didn't work?
I know what works for somecannot work for the others.
It just it's kind of.
You know it's different foreverybody.
But if you wouldn't mindsharing a little bit, mike, with
you.
First, what's some of thestruggles you had and how did
you get get a, get some help andyou know what's the first?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
yeah, when I first uh started working as a deputy
sheriff, well, we were assignedto the jail and into the
dispatch center and we had to uhsupervise inmates in the jail
(16:08):
and I had I had a particularshift that one of the inmates
hung themselves on me and I wasjust a young man and you know
that impacted me the feelings ofguilt and shame over the loss
of life is a very traumatizingexperience and you know, one of
the things about law enforcementand corrections or nursing or
(16:32):
emergency services, whatever itis that somebody's trying to do
their best through that is thedanger of secrecy and the
isolation that comes along withthat.
It's almost a little cultish ifyou think about how darkness
works and what traps is that youfeel like you have no one to
(16:56):
talk to.
And you're right, you and Iwere both hurting at the same
time, with different hurts, butit's all the same trauma, and so
one of the things that Ilearned early on was to find
somebody that I could trust,that I worked with, to share
(17:18):
some of that burden and to makesure and to make sure one of my.
I had such great co workers andI had such great bosses and
they made sure to tell me and Ithink sometimes you know we
forget talk to your spouse, talkto your significant other, and
(17:39):
doesn't mean you have to tellthem everything that's going on.
You can still respect, you know, confidential going on.
You can still respectconfidential matters, but you
can still talk about how thingsare impacting you as a person.
The other thing is part of thattime when I was a young deputy
well, I wasn't walking withJesus Christ at the time and
(18:03):
having people that were willingto come alongside me and share
the gospel that Jesus loved me,that he died for me, that I
don't have to live in pain andlive alone, that I can really
live and live life to the full.
And you know, when you havesomebody that shares something
(18:24):
like that with you, it affectsyou going forward eternally.
And that's what I love abouthow God works through the hands
of his servants Is they're notafraid to come alongside another
person that's hurting and justshare with them some things that
may be practical things thatthey learned how to cope with
(18:49):
those stressors and the traumathat comes with that.
I remember another time a motorvehicle crash where a young lady
was killed and she was acollege student and was thrown
into a barbed wire fence and Iremember that was the first time
(19:10):
I'd ever seen a fatalityaccident where somebody had been
thrown from the car and I wasby myself.
And you're alone and byyourself and you're having to
process that and still beprofessional and still do a good
job with your investigation andreporting all that you know,
(19:31):
that's put on that fake face,right put on that fake mask.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I'm okay yeah, yep, exactly, let it show when you're
out there mm-hmm, that's right.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Yeah, those are all over the years, attending
trainings where you know you'regiven resources to you know,
contact information for peoplethat that can help process, help
you process through thosetraumatizing situations, and
(20:03):
recognizing that they give youthat information for a reason.
They're not just throwing itout there to you because they
don't have anything else to todo, they're giving you that as a
tool, and so that's veryimportant.
And over the years, and aftermy career came to a close and
now I'm in my elder years I justturned 60.
(20:25):
And so I'm an elderly person.
Well, now, you know, I get tolook back at all that, dan, and
say to myself, gee, I didn'trecognize how that affected me
then, but now I can kind ofunpack it, I have the you know,
when you're in the middle ofyour career and you're thinking,
I really don't have time tounpack this, I've got other
(20:46):
things that I need to do.
I'm raising my family.
I'm, you know, trying to getready for a trial or get ready
for a sick family member.
Maybe you got a sick familymember.
Those are all things that, asyou grow older, it it uh um, you
have more time to focus on someof those things that may be
(21:08):
neglected in years past.
So yeah that's um that's how Iwent through it.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Thank you for sharing all of that.
That was, that was wonderfuland and for me I was going to
say that the trauma it was kindof like a slow burn right.
It's not like all of a sudden,you just the fire's on you.
It's over time.
It just slowly changes you andslowly changes you.
And then for me you know Iremember it didn't take long you
know five or six years inlooking in the mirror and going
(21:37):
who in the world am I?
I don't even know who this guyis.
I'm no longer healthy, evenknow who this guy is.
I'm no longer healthy.
I'm not sleeping.
I'm an angry person.
I'm drinking all the time.
I came into this career full ofjoy and life and it was all
sucked out of me and I wasn'tsharing that with anybody.
I didn't share that withanybody until 2020, when I had
an encounter with God.
(21:58):
I hid it all.
But I will say, mike, from mycareer, every time I saw you,
you and I always had a big smilefor each other and a hug and
you were a light out there, man.
You were a light and Iappreciate everything that
you've done for us and Iespecially appreciate what
you're doing for our firstresponders after retirement.
(22:18):
It'd be easy to just retire anddo whatever you want, be
selfish and focus on on you.
But you guys both have done thecomplete opposite.
You are, you're being light forothers, you're bringing healing
to others, and I wish I wouldhave had somebody in my career,
um, early on, kind of like youwere saying mike, that was, you
(22:38):
know, a christian guy that hadgone through some stuff and
gotten healing, another officerthat just would have put their
arm around me and said, hey,buddy, this is, this is going to
be a long road, but you're notdoing this alone.
I want to help you through this.
I want to teach you how toprocess this thing, because Mike
and Pam so many of us whenwe're going through it, we think
we're supposed to have all theanswers to know how to cope with
(22:59):
all of this stuff.
And how in the world are yousupposed to have all the answers
if you've never been throughthis before?
It's your first time in yourlife going through whatever
incident this may be, and butyet we expect ourselves to not
ask for help, to not reach outfor assistance, because we feel
like we should be able to dealwith it on our own or we're just
screw-ups like everybody elseis fine.
Um boy, what a lie that is.
(23:21):
What a lie that is to justthink that that we boy, what a
lie.
That is what a lie that is tojust think that that we can do
it on our own.
And that's what I heard yousaying, mike.
Basically was you you can't walkalone in this field.
You cannot walk alone.
You have to have your spousewith you.
You have to have your family,your co-workers and we've talked
about this before several timeson these podcasts most of the
people I work with.
They don't want to tell theirspouses anything.
(23:41):
And and Pam can relate to thisyou can't.
That's not a healthy situationto be in.
Now, if you're just getting homefrom work and you're high
stress and high, you just had atraumatic event, I like what I
like a system of either zero tofive or zero to 10.
Or when you come home, you canlet your wife or your husband or
(24:02):
your kids know hey, today was asix or today was an eight.
While you go get to, you know,change out of your uniform,
decompress, have some time inprayer or whatever it may be,
but later in the evening orlater in the day.
You do need to have aconversation with your spouse
because with a lack ofinformation, our spouses come up
(24:25):
with scenarios that are worsethan than if we just tell them.
And the scenarios they'recoming up or coming up with,
even if they're not worse,there's still no closure to it
because they're just guessing.
So if we can give them a littlebit of information, like Mike
said, you don't have to diveinto all the guts and glory and
gore.
But, pam, what would you sayabout that, about that being a
(24:46):
spouse with Mike?
And then we'll jump into some ofyour career things and some of
the treatment and stuff thatyou've gone through.
What's?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
it like being a spouse.
So, first of all, what I say,that got me through all these
times, was faith, family andfriends, in that order.
And Mike and I were veryfortunate to have each other to
(25:16):
talk about things, pray aboutthings and you know, when the
PTSD hits, like I said, I didn'tknow I was being damaged and
until it all started coming outand I sorry, I lost my train of
thought.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
You're just fine.
You're just fine.
I like that you said the faith,family and friends, because
those are the good F-words wecan use.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yes.
Dan did I tell you Pam's, mybest friend.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
You never told me that, but I can tell by how you
treat her.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
We're having our 40th wedding anniversary 40th
wedding anniversaryCongratulations is amazing
because being in law enforcement, having a handicapped child and
depression issues totally wouldhave made us not last through
our relationship.
(26:16):
But god is good and we, when wesaid our, our vows, we meant it
and he's blessed us because ofit.
I still get tired of him everyso often, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, but when it comes to working through this
stuff, it can either divide afamily or it can bring a family
closer together.
But if you wanted to bring itcloser together, you have to be
intentional about it.
It's not going to happen byaccident, it's not going to
happen by avoidance.
If you want to have a healthyrelationship and actually grow
closer through the hard timesand through the stress and the
(26:51):
trauma and the loss of life andall that kind of stuff, you have
to be intentional about it.
And in my situation, in yoursituation, it was putting Jesus
first and I know not everybodythat listens is a believer, but
I can't really talk about mystory or anything without Christ
because I wouldn't be herewithout him.
I tried doing it on my own for40 years and it led to suicide
(27:14):
and addiction and suicideattempts anyway.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
I think that was really important.
What you said, too, dan, aboutbeing intentional about it and
recognizing that keeping yourbrain healthy and keeping your
soul, your mind, your intellect,your emotions, the who you
really are inside this earthenvessel where we live, all of
(27:40):
that, keeping it healthy andwell and adjusted properly
adjusted is hard work.
It's just plain hard work.
And there's those sleeplessnights when you're trying to lay
your head on your pillow andyou have the voices that are
condemning you, the lying voicesthat would tell you that you're
(28:04):
not valuable, because maybe youmade a mistake, or maybe you
rebelled against God, or maybeyou, maybe you didn't do things
the way you were supposed to dothem and things got out of
control.
But you know all those thingsin coping with that, those human
nature experiences that arecommon to all mankind, and
(28:26):
coping with those is hard work,but it's work that is an
investment.
It's an investment for your ownsoul and it's an investment for
the people who are around youthat you affect and impact every
day.
Dan, you'll never know how manytimes when I saw you, when we
were working together, how manytimes you impacted me by just a
(28:49):
one time we had a traffic stopthat you helped us with when you
were with the drug task force,and I remember saying, oh, I
thought I had the speed limitcorrect for, you know, doing the
traffic stop, but I had thespeeds, the speed limit, I had
it incorrect in my head and andit was still a good stop, it was
still a legal stop.
(29:09):
But I said, oh, I thought itwas such and such a speed.
And you looked at me and yousaid, mike, he was still
speeding, yep, yep.
You know, it was just that onelittle thing, that that helped
me, and you know when me, whenI'm trying to figure out how am
I going to approach this task.
(29:30):
We never know how much.
Just a couple words that we sayto a co-worker or to a friend,
just to encourage them and helpthem know that you know they, uh
, they're doing a good job yeah,and you could be.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You can be the light in the darkness, yeah that's
right.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Something that was interesting was when mike would
leave for work.
You know some people watch,keep scanners to follow what's
going on.
I never did and I would.
I love you and angels watchover you.
And then I didn't worry.
And what's neat is our kidshave picked up on that and we
(30:14):
never leave each other'spresence without saying I love
you, angels watch over you.
I love that.
So that's something.
So that's something.
(30:39):
Another, as far as what I'vebeen going through, I was I call
it the screen Doing deathnotification.
You can only imagine how hardthat is.
That was the hardest part of myjob.
But there would be officers whosaid, oh good, it's you doing
(31:15):
this, this person needs someextra and just being able to
help the families.
And so the scream was two youngteenagers killed in a car
accident.
And we don't ever notify byphone, we don't do the death
calls, and so they didn't livein Warren County, and so I sent
(31:39):
somebody from that area and theywere supposed to notify them
and then tell me or have themcall me and I could talk about
it.
So my phone rings, I pick it upand it's a mother and she's
(32:03):
saying what, what happened, whatWell, the officer had gotten
there, dialed the phone, handedit to her, and so when I found
out that they didn't know, Imade sure it was the right
parent you never want to messthat up.
(32:25):
And the scream in my ear Icouldn't get over.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Blood curdling, screaming.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
It stayed with me a long time.
But what really was nice was ingoing through this retreat.
One of the things that theyoffer is emdr, and with that I
was able to process and um, it'stoo hard to explain the whole
(33:02):
theory with EMDR, but it changeshow your brain is dealing with
it, and so I could close my eyesafter this treatment and not be
able to recreate that screamthat was in my ear.
And I can close my eyes and Ican picture myself there, but
(33:30):
the emotional part that was veryhard on my psyche isn't there,
and so EMDR has helped meimmensely.
Helped me immensely, and soit's something that somebody
might help them with theirtrauma.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, I would say, you know, for every treatment
that's out there there'ssomebody that's told me it saved
their life, but probablynothing more than number one.
Jesus Christ.
But EMDR would be right upthere at the top.
It's amazing how the brainworks, how you can um,
desensitize or yeah it's notthat the thoughts don't come and
you can correct me if I'm wrong, pam.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
It's not that the thoughts don't come, it's just
they no longer control you isthat not everybody has what TV
shows as PTSD waking up in thenight screaming.
You know all that and that'sthe stigma that PTSD has gotten,
(34:39):
but I've never had a nightmareabout a death investigation
Interesting I've never had anightmare about a death
investigation, interesting, um.
But I had intrusive thoughts.
So you know, something innocent, like um fourth of july and
(35:01):
that I had to do, and that I hadto do a depth investigation.
I'm considering using fireworksand so when I hear fireworks,
my mind goes to thatinvestigation.
So it's the intrusive thoughts.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
And those are something I'm processing,
getting rid of, and my faith ishelped more than I can say.
And I always tell people theysay can PTSD be healed?
Can it be gone?
Number one I think it can be.
I think our God can do anythinghe wants, yes.
But number two it can be healed.
But it can't be something thatyou just turn the switch off and
ignore at any given point.
It's a lifetime of followingChrist, a lifetime of getting
(35:56):
help, getting therapy when youneed it.
I still go to counseling, Irecommend people go to
counseling.
I still obviously run theorganization and do peer support
and all sorts of other things.
But even once you do get healedfrom it, it's still something
you have to intently work on andbe part of.
It'll try to come back.
The enemy will try to reclaimthe territory that he had before
(36:17):
and luckily we serve a Godthat's mightier than him.
We're going to go ahead andstart to wrap up this episode,
but would you guys stick aroundfor one more?
I'd love to do a part two withyou guys, because you guys have
so much.
I could probably do five parts,but we'll start off with two
parts.
I would love that because I knowour listeners, they want to
hear more and I and I don't wantto make these too long, but one
(36:43):
of you and would one of you andI probably shouldn't put you on
the spot like this, but I'm.
We have people that arelistening, that are afraid to
reach out.
We have people that are arehurting, they don't know what to
do.
They don't know, um, you guysboth know that for first
responders or last responderslike you, pam.
For first responders and lastresponders, um, we a lot of
times don't reach out for helpif we don't trust the source, If
(37:05):
we haven't heard from anotherfirst responder saying hey,
these dudes are solid, thisorganization's solid, this
treatment facility, they're goodpeople.
So, for people that arelistening, number one, what
would you say to them toencourage them to reach out?
Either 1042 Project or theRetreat Center, or just start
the process of reaching out, andthen, if one of you want to
(37:26):
cover that, and then if theother one would close out with
just an encouraging message topeople that may want to reach
out further and know aboutChrist.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
I wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for Christ.
I wouldn't be alive if itwasn't for Christ.
(38:04):
I've had my dealing withdepression, suicide attempt, and
I'm able to walk out of thatdark area into an area full of
life, full of life, full of life, full of life, full of light,
and the only reason I could do.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
That was because of my faith come on me too, man.
I tried it the other way.
It didn't work.
It's like when people come tome it's like do you want to get
better?
The hard way or the easy way?
Because the hard way is is tonot bring christ into it.
You know, the easiest way is tobring Christ into him.
Let him restore you and healyour brain, heal your body, heal
your spirit, heal your soul.
(38:29):
He can do all that, mike, forour brothers and sisters that
are listening, that are afraidto reach out, afraid to make
that first step, because it maybe nurses, ems, fire staff,
dispatchers anyone in publicsafety probably has a wellness
(39:04):
contact, an employer assistanceprogram, EAP that they can
contact if they're struggling.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
One of the biggest lies of the wicked one is that
nobody can help you, thatnothing you do is going to
change anything, nobody that youtalk to.
But that's a lie of the deviland all I would say about that
is be willing to trust God thathe's going to connect you with
the right person at the righttime with the right treatment,
(39:36):
and know that what works for oneperson in coping with our
physical body, the brain, theway that it interacts with our
emotions and the spirit of manthat God has put inside of us,
(39:57):
is to just know that it justtakes one kind word from
somebody else that's been aroundthe block a time or two.
And know that if you contact1042 project or you contact your
chaplain, most departments havea chaplain or a minister that
(40:21):
lives in the area.
Maybe it's just a or a ministerthat lives in the area, Maybe
it's just a member of the citycouncil that you might have a
relationship with that you cango talk to.
It really doesn't matter asmuch who.
It is just that you're willingto reach out for help when you
(40:41):
need it and know that they'rethere to help you.
And there's always somebodythere if you're having a rough
shift or struggling through yourjob or at home.
One of the most challengingparts of my career was walking
through the house, walkingthrough the front door of my
(41:04):
house and knowing that's wherethe real work starts.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
And being able to leave my work at work and not
take that through the housewhere it's going to be
destructive.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
And that's a challenge, you know, but we have
to be able to work at that also, and so, yeah, I think the
help's there.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
We just have to reach out.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
We love you all.
If you're hurting, please don'tdo this.
You don't have to walk alone.
That's what this organizationis for.
That's what God's called us for.
Even if you're a believer ornot a believer, it does not
matter.
That's what this organizationis for.
That's what God's called us for.
Even if you're a believer ornot a believer, it does not
matter.
We want to walk alongside youand make sure you have the
resources and all the tools tolive a healthy life, to save
your careers or your life andyour relationships.
So please reach out to10-42projectcom and thanks for
(41:59):
listening.
Welcome back to the Shared Voices podcast from the
1042 Project.
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
We are so blessed.
Today we have a husband andwife power couple joining us,
Mike and Pam Morrison.
They have served our communityso well for so long and I'm
excited to introduce you to themso you guys can hear how God's
(00:24):
moved through their life, someof their ups and downs, like all
of us go through this amazingcouple I've been blessed to know
since my teenage years, MikeGoing way back when I was a
little teenage punk and we weregoing on church trips up to the
boundary waters of Minnesota, upto the Boundary Waters of
Minnesota.
And here we are.
I never would have thought backthen that we'd be sitting here,
(00:46):
both retired law enforcementand with your beautiful wife,
Pam.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So thank you guys for joining us.
It's our pleasure.
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Absolutely.
So.
You guys, we're just going tokick back, have some fun here
we're going to.
You know, our listeners are.
They're listening becausethey're listening for a reason.
You know, this isn't one ofthose podcasts where people just
listen who have no interest in.
You know, it's not just ageneral podcast, right, we're
very specific and, um, so thepeople that are listening are
listening for a reason.
(01:18):
They're listening because theythey have gone through, you know
, a lot of the same stuff thatwe have gone through, the three
of us, through our jobs, throughthe stress, through the trauma,
and some are doing well andsome are not doing well.
We also have a lot of peoplethat join us, that are family
members and have friends, thatare first responders, that are
looking for a little bit ofadvice, a little bit of
(01:38):
perspective, a way to understandand to help their loved ones
find healing, to find peaceagain, because we all know that
trauma steals our joy, it stealsour peace, it steals our
relationships, and so we'regoing to kick back, we're going
to have some fun.
I want to hear a little bitabout you guys, and I know you
got a dog in the room, thetherapy dog, luna, the big
(01:59):
sweetie.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Oh, she's over here Come here Luna girl.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
There, she is All right.
Can you move it closer?
Luna, dogs are so much fun andI love how the therapy dogs just
you know, and when we go outand give talks, when we're going
out to the academies ordepartments to talk, being able
to bring Luna and being able tobring other therapy dogs out
there is so empowering.
So, mike, let's start with you,buddy, I've known you the
(02:30):
longest.
Tell me a little bit about yourcareer, some of the ups and
some of the downs, and why theheck do you guys spend time out
of your day trying to bringlight to other first responders
and their families?
I'd love to hear a little bitabout that light to other first
responders and their families.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I'd love to hear a little bit about that man.
That's a lot.
Well, yeah, I'm mike and Iworked at warren county
sheriff's office at indianolafor 28 years.
I started out there in 1989.
Um, you know, I started outworking on the radio, up in the
dispatch center and working inthe jail and I worked doing that
(03:12):
type of roles andresponsibilities for about five
years and then I moved out topatrol, moved out to patrol and
I taught the DARE program for afew years and got to go to
several different schooldistricts in the Warren County
(03:36):
community and I worked oninvestigations, criminal
investigations, and was adetective there for many years
and was a sergeant and a chiefdeputy and I was a retired as a
lieutenant at the sheriff'soffice there and you know I had
(03:59):
many interesting experiences.
But you know, dan, I was alwayshurting Everybody hurts and I
had many years where there wasmuch pain but there was much joy
as well.
So, working through thattogether and, you know, with my
(04:20):
wife, pam and she was a nursefor many years and a death
investigator all kinds ofdifferent responsibilities, but
we did that together Oftentimes.
There were several times wherewe would show up at the same
case together, and so it waskind of comical at times, you
(04:43):
know, and we just I had a lot ofpeople that helped me through
that, and one of the things youasked me was well, why would you
(05:17):
want to do that?
Why would you want to serve thecommunity?
Why would you want to helpother people and bring the light
of Jesus Christ to a lost anddying world?
Well, that was me, and so, fora guy like me, walking down the
street and feeling dead on theinside as a young father and
(05:39):
trying to find my way through my, to find my way through my
adult life, I had people thatministered to me and people that
shared Christ with me andtaught me how I could live a
life that while there's pain,there's also joy.
And joy comes in the morning,and I love that about how God
(06:00):
works in our lives and worksthrough other people's lives to
help us, because that's whywe're here is to help other
people.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Wow, that's a.
You've got quite the quite thecareer.
My friend, I didn't realize youdid dispatching as well.
Dispatching jailing, and andand the deputy.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Answering 911 calls.
We had the first.
You know, in Warren County wedidn't always have 911.
And when I first started therewe had just got 911, where you
could see the phone number thatwas actually calling for
emergency services.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Now you're dating yourself here, buddy.
Yeah, and then we got enhanced911, where you could actually
see the address where that phonephone line uh that'd be yeah
that had to be a whole differentworld, because when I came in
we had you know well, not atfirst, but eventually we had the
computers where the addresseswould pop up, we had gps.
You, old boys, didn't have thatman, you had a we had a paper
(07:00):
map, if you're lucky and it wasturned left by the cemetery.
Down to the Johnson's house andtake a right McKee Hill.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
McKee Hill.
We have paper and pen.
That's what we had Back when.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
I was a kid.
You started in 89 and I didn'tgraduate high school till 98.
So here we go.
You probably got underwearolder than me.
That just aged us so, pam man,you, uh, you did you.
You did a job I could neverimagine doing.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
I couldn't imagine I was minding my own business,
being an rn in the NICU withlittle one-pound babies on
weekends.
Then Mike came up to me andsaid there's an opening that I
think you would like as a deathinvestigator in Warren County.
(07:54):
I ended up doing that for nineyears and I just felt like it
was to be able to do that joband it must just be something
that the Lord helped me to doand it didn't bother me.
(08:19):
But then a cumulative traumathat you don't understand till
later affected me.
But always wanting to learn,then I was a forensic autopsy
tech at the state of Iowamedical examiner's office
because I wanted to see what Iwas seeing at the scenes
(08:39):
internally.
So I did that for about two anda half years internally.
So I did that for about two anda half years.
And then there's a federal teamthat I was a part of for.
Another nine years of.
We're sent.
It's called DMORT and we aresent for mass fatalities.
(09:00):
And so I also did that, andpeople would ask me how do you
get any job satisfaction?
You know, with that kind of ajob, but helping the survivors
know what happened to theirloved one and you know, if there
(09:22):
was fears that they suffered,being able to tell them no, they
died immediately.
And whenever I would leaveafter my investigation, I would
tell them.
I just want you to know thatI'll pray for you and whether
they were Christian or not,there was always that
(09:43):
appreciative glance they wouldgive me.
And then 2011 was when Joplinwas hit by a tornado that was
the highest level EF5.
But the difference that made itso deadly was it stayed on the
(10:07):
ground for 30 minutes and therewere 150 people that died.
And so I was sent there andworking 12 to 16 hour shifts, we
went through 147 bodies that wewere able to 100% identify, and
(10:32):
just doing that and thinkingyou know God's gift was to help
me be able to do that there wasstill the trauma that I didn't
see brewing up.
And so, now that I'm done withthose jobs, I have taken on our
(10:57):
brunadoodle, luna, and she hasbecome an important part of our
lives.
I got her certified as a firstresponder therapy dog and she's
there available for free to comeand just help ground people.
(11:21):
And the reason I'm so passionateabout it was if we would have
had a dog like luna in joplinfor all those long days, it
would have helped so much.
And so, um, we go to um thetrauma retreats and um they're
(11:42):
four days, and um it's to helpwith first responders in Chicago
, and I've been to 10, but weadded Luna, she was still only
one, but she worked the room,she found those that needed her
(12:02):
the most and is just amazing.
And so she's been to five ofthem already and is a true hit.
I told them I couldn't attend aretreat and they said well,
you'll still send luna right no,so and the dog if you can't
(12:25):
come yeah, they don't care aboutme, it's Luna, right?
No, so Send the dog if you can'tcome.
Yeah, they don't care about me,it's the dog.
But Luna has opened the doorsfor people and I've been told
before at these retreats that wesaved people's lives and I
believe that Luna could tell whoneeded it.
(12:47):
And there was an officer who wedidn't know.
He was teetering on the edge ofsuicide and Luna picked up on
that.
She sat by him the whole fourdays retreat and just sort of
opened up him to start thehealing and he's doing very well
(13:10):
now.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
That's amazing.
Your guys' story is prettypowerful.
I mean what you guys have beenthrough.
And you know I wasn't there forall your career, for your whole
career, obviously, but I wasthere for some of the the end.
And for those that don't know,we are out of iowa, um, I work
for the indian police departmentand mike worked for the warren
county sheriff's department,which is the county that I live
(13:34):
in.
Um, so he was out running therural area and I was in the city
, um, but in iowa we, uh, wework tight with each other.
We back each other up thereother up.
There's not a lot of us out, sowe're out there to back each
other up.
And I've been able to see andbe on some of the calls that
Mike's been on.
I've been the officer on deathscenes who was calling Pam to
(13:58):
have her show up to do the deathinvestigation, while I would
sit there with the family orjust sometimes sit in the room
with a dead body or alongside ofthe road.
So I got to get to know youguys.
You know not only way back whenat church, I also got to know
you guys in your professionalcareer.
And the interesting part, mike,is and I say this a lot, but you
(14:23):
and I were both hurting at thesame time and either one of us
knew it- yes.
And I'm and I'm learning fromtalking to fellow officers.
I used to work with um otherofficers in the area.
Boy, everybody was goingthrough trauma.
Everybody was going through um,the symptoms of trauma, ptsd,
the not sleep and the stress,and none of us were talking
(14:46):
about it.
It just wasn't something wetalked about.
It was kind of a lease that Iremember in my situations.
A lot of it was just suck it up, buttercup, you keep your mouth
shut, you go to your next call,go home, go to bed, don't tell
your wife about anything, hideit all and hope that it'll go
away and obviously it never does.
But if you don't mind sharing,mike and I'll ask both of you,
(15:08):
but I'll start with Mike firstFrom your career, with the
trauma that you saw and thestruggles that you had, are you
willing to share what some ofthose were and how you kind of
knew, or once you knew, that youneeded help?
Was it after your career, was itduring it?
And then, what types oftreatments have you guys tried
(15:29):
that have worked or didn't work?
I know what works for somecannot work for the others.
It just it's kind of.
You know it's different foreverybody.
But if you wouldn't mindsharing a little bit, mike, with
you.
First, what's some of thestruggles you had and how did
you get get a, get some help andyou know what's the first?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
yeah, when I first uh started working as a deputy
sheriff, well, we were assignedto the jail and into the
dispatch center and we had to uhsupervise inmates in the jail
(16:08):
and I had I had a particularshift that one of the inmates
hung themselves on me and I wasjust a young man and you know
that impacted me the feelings ofguilt and shame over the loss
of life is a very traumatizingexperience and you know, one of
the things about law enforcementand corrections or nursing or
(16:32):
emergency services, whatever itis that somebody's trying to do
their best through that is thedanger of secrecy and the
isolation that comes along withthat.
It's almost a little cultish ifyou think about how darkness
works and what traps is that youfeel like you have no one to
(16:56):
talk to.
And you're right, you and Iwere both hurting at the same
time, with different hurts, butit's all the same trauma, and so
one of the things that Ilearned early on was to find
somebody that I could trust,that I worked with, to share
(17:18):
some of that burden and to makesure and to make sure one of my.
I had such great co workers andI had such great bosses and
they made sure to tell me and Ithink sometimes you know we
forget talk to your spouse, talkto your significant other, and
(17:39):
doesn't mean you have to tellthem everything that's going on.
You can still respect, you know, confidential going on.
You can still respectconfidential matters, but you
can still talk about how thingsare impacting you as a person.
The other thing is part of thattime when I was a young deputy
well, I wasn't walking withJesus Christ at the time and
(18:03):
having people that were willingto come alongside me and share
the gospel that Jesus loved me,that he died for me, that I
don't have to live in pain andlive alone, that I can really
live and live life to the full.
And you know, when you havesomebody that shares something
(18:24):
like that with you, it affectsyou going forward eternally.
And that's what I love abouthow God works through the hands
of his servants Is they're notafraid to come alongside another
person that's hurting and justshare with them some things that
may be practical things thatthey learned how to cope with
(18:49):
those stressors and the traumathat comes with that.
I remember another time a motorvehicle crash where a young lady
was killed and she was acollege student and was thrown
into a barbed wire fence and Iremember that was the first time
(19:10):
I'd ever seen a fatalityaccident where somebody had been
thrown from the car and I wasby myself.
And you're alone and byyourself and you're having to
process that and still beprofessional and still do a good
job with your investigation andreporting all that you know,
(19:31):
that's put on that fake face,right put on that fake mask.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I'm okay yeah, yep, exactly, let it show when you're
out there mm-hmm, that's right.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Yeah, those are all over the years, attending
trainings where you know you'regiven resources to you know,
contact information for peoplethat that can help process, help
you process through thosetraumatizing situations, and
(20:03):
recognizing that they give youthat information for a reason.
They're not just throwing itout there to you because they
don't have anything else to todo, they're giving you that as a
tool, and so that's veryimportant.
And over the years, and aftermy career came to a close and
now I'm in my elder years I justturned 60.
(20:25):
And so I'm an elderly person.
Well, now, you know, I get tolook back at all that, dan, and
say to myself, gee, I didn'trecognize how that affected me
then, but now I can kind ofunpack it, I have the you know,
when you're in the middle ofyour career and you're thinking,
I really don't have time tounpack this, I've got other
(20:46):
things that I need to do.
I'm raising my family.
I'm, you know, trying to getready for a trial or get ready
for a sick family member.
Maybe you got a sick familymember.
Those are all things that, asyou grow older, it it uh um, you
have more time to focus on someof those things that may be
(21:08):
neglected in years past.
So yeah that's um that's how Iwent through it.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Thank you for sharing all of that.
That was, that was wonderfuland and for me I was going to
say that the trauma it was kindof like a slow burn right.
It's not like all of a sudden,you just the fire's on you.
It's over time.
It just slowly changes you andslowly changes you.
And then for me you know Iremember it didn't take long you
know five or six years inlooking in the mirror and going
(21:37):
who in the world am I?
I don't even know who this guyis.
I'm no longer healthy, evenknow who this guy is.
I'm no longer healthy.
I'm not sleeping.
I'm an angry person.
I'm drinking all the time.
I came into this career full ofjoy and life and it was all
sucked out of me and I wasn'tsharing that with anybody.
I didn't share that withanybody until 2020, when I had
an encounter with God.
(21:58):
I hid it all.
But I will say, mike, from mycareer, every time I saw you,
you and I always had a big smilefor each other and a hug and
you were a light out there, man.
You were a light and Iappreciate everything that
you've done for us and Iespecially appreciate what
you're doing for our firstresponders after retirement.
(22:18):
It'd be easy to just retire anddo whatever you want, be
selfish and focus on on you.
But you guys both have done thecomplete opposite.
You are, you're being light forothers, you're bringing healing
to others, and I wish I wouldhave had somebody in my career,
um, early on, kind of like youwere saying mike, that was, you
(22:38):
know, a christian guy that hadgone through some stuff and
gotten healing, another officerthat just would have put their
arm around me and said, hey,buddy, this is, this is going to
be a long road, but you're notdoing this alone.
I want to help you through this.
I want to teach you how toprocess this thing, because Mike
and Pam so many of us whenwe're going through it, we think
we're supposed to have all theanswers to know how to cope with
(22:59):
all of this stuff.
And how in the world are yousupposed to have all the answers
if you've never been throughthis before?
It's your first time in yourlife going through whatever
incident this may be, and butyet we expect ourselves to not
ask for help, to not reach outfor assistance, because we feel
like we should be able to dealwith it on our own or we're just
screw-ups like everybody elseis fine.
Um boy, what a lie that is.
(23:21):
What a lie that is to justthink that that we boy, what a
lie.
That is what a lie that is tojust think that that we can do
it on our own.
And that's what I heard yousaying, mike.
Basically was you you can't walkalone in this field.
You cannot walk alone.
You have to have your spousewith you.
You have to have your family,your co-workers and we've talked
about this before several timeson these podcasts most of the
people I work with.
They don't want to tell theirspouses anything.
(23:41):
And and Pam can relate to thisyou can't.
That's not a healthy situationto be in.
Now, if you're just getting homefrom work and you're high
stress and high, you just had atraumatic event, I like what I
like a system of either zero tofive or zero to 10.
Or when you come home, you canlet your wife or your husband or
(24:02):
your kids know hey, today was asix or today was an eight.
While you go get to, you know,change out of your uniform,
decompress, have some time inprayer or whatever it may be,
but later in the evening orlater in the day.
You do need to have aconversation with your spouse
because with a lack ofinformation, our spouses come up
(24:25):
with scenarios that are worsethan than if we just tell them.
And the scenarios they'recoming up or coming up with,
even if they're not worse,there's still no closure to it
because they're just guessing.
So if we can give them a littlebit of information, like Mike
said, you don't have to diveinto all the guts and glory and
gore.
But, pam, what would you sayabout that, about that being a
(24:46):
spouse with Mike?
And then we'll jump into some ofyour career things and some of
the treatment and stuff thatyou've gone through.
What's?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
it like being a spouse.
So, first of all, what I say,that got me through all these
times, was faith, family andfriends, in that order.
And Mike and I were veryfortunate to have each other to
(25:16):
talk about things, pray aboutthings and you know, when the
PTSD hits, like I said, I didn'tknow I was being damaged and
until it all started coming outand I sorry, I lost my train of
thought.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
You're just fine.
You're just fine.
I like that you said the faith,family and friends, because
those are the good F-words wecan use.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yes.
Dan did I tell you Pam's, mybest friend.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
You never told me that, but I can tell by how you
treat her.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
We're having our 40th wedding anniversary 40th
wedding anniversaryCongratulations is amazing
because being in law enforcement, having a handicapped child and
depression issues totally wouldhave made us not last through
our relationship.
(26:16):
But god is good and we, when wesaid our, our vows, we meant it
and he's blessed us because ofit.
I still get tired of him everyso often, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, but when it comes to working through this
stuff, it can either divide afamily or it can bring a family
closer together.
But if you wanted to bring itcloser together, you have to be
intentional about it.
It's not going to happen byaccident, it's not going to
happen by avoidance.
If you want to have a healthyrelationship and actually grow
closer through the hard timesand through the stress and the
(26:51):
trauma and the loss of life andall that kind of stuff, you have
to be intentional about it.
And in my situation, in yoursituation, it was putting Jesus
first and I know not everybodythat listens is a believer, but
I can't really talk about mystory or anything without Christ
because I wouldn't be herewithout him.
I tried doing it on my own for40 years and it led to suicide
(27:14):
and addiction and suicideattempts anyway.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
I think that was really important.
What you said, too, dan, aboutbeing intentional about it and
recognizing that keeping yourbrain healthy and keeping your
soul, your mind, your intellect,your emotions, the who you
really are inside this earthenvessel where we live, all of
(27:40):
that, keeping it healthy andwell and adjusted properly
adjusted is hard work.
It's just plain hard work.
And there's those sleeplessnights when you're trying to lay
your head on your pillow andyou have the voices that are
condemning you, the lying voicesthat would tell you that you're
(28:04):
not valuable, because maybe youmade a mistake, or maybe you
rebelled against God, or maybeyou, maybe you didn't do things
the way you were supposed to dothem and things got out of
control.
But you know all those thingsin coping with that, those human
nature experiences that arecommon to all mankind, and
(28:26):
coping with those is hard work,but it's work that is an
investment.
It's an investment for your ownsoul and it's an investment for
the people who are around youthat you affect and impact every
day.
Dan, you'll never know how manytimes when I saw you, when we
were working together, how manytimes you impacted me by just a
(28:49):
one time we had a traffic stopthat you helped us with when you
were with the drug task force,and I remember saying, oh, I
thought I had the speed limitcorrect for, you know, doing the
traffic stop, but I had thespeeds, the speed limit, I had
it incorrect in my head and andit was still a good stop, it was
still a legal stop.
(29:09):
But I said, oh, I thought itwas such and such a speed.
And you looked at me and yousaid, mike, he was still
speeding, yep, yep.
You know, it was just that onelittle thing, that that helped
me, and you know when me, whenI'm trying to figure out how am
I going to approach this task.
(29:30):
We never know how much.
Just a couple words that we sayto a co-worker or to a friend,
just to encourage them and helpthem know that you know they, uh
, they're doing a good job yeah,and you could be.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You can be the light in the darkness, yeah that's
right.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Something that was interesting was when mike would
leave for work.
You know some people watch,keep scanners to follow what's
going on.
I never did and I would.
I love you and angels watchover you.
And then I didn't worry.
And what's neat is our kidshave picked up on that and we
(30:14):
never leave each other'spresence without saying I love
you, angels watch over you.
I love that.
So that's something.
So that's something.
(30:39):
Another, as far as what I'vebeen going through, I was I call
it the screen Doing deathnotification.
You can only imagine how hardthat is.
That was the hardest part of myjob.
But there would be officers whosaid, oh good, it's you doing
(31:15):
this, this person needs someextra and just being able to
help the families.
And so the scream was two youngteenagers killed in a car
accident.
And we don't ever notify byphone, we don't do the death
calls, and so they didn't livein Warren County, and so I sent
(31:39):
somebody from that area and theywere supposed to notify them
and then tell me or have themcall me and I could talk about
it.
So my phone rings, I pick it upand it's a mother and she's
(32:03):
saying what, what happened, whatWell, the officer had gotten
there, dialed the phone, handedit to her, and so when I found
out that they didn't know, Imade sure it was the right
parent you never want to messthat up.
(32:25):
And the scream in my ear Icouldn't get over.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Blood curdling, screaming.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
It stayed with me a long time.
But what really was nice was ingoing through this retreat.
One of the things that theyoffer is emdr, and with that I
was able to process and um, it'stoo hard to explain the whole
(33:02):
theory with EMDR, but it changeshow your brain is dealing with
it, and so I could close my eyesafter this treatment and not be
able to recreate that screamthat was in my ear.
And I can close my eyes and Ican picture myself there, but
(33:30):
the emotional part that was veryhard on my psyche isn't there,
and so EMDR has helped meimmensely.
Helped me immensely, and soit's something that somebody
might help them with theirtrauma.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, I would say, you know, for every treatment
that's out there there'ssomebody that's told me it saved
their life, but probablynothing more than number one.
Jesus Christ.
But EMDR would be right upthere at the top.
It's amazing how the brainworks, how you can um,
desensitize or yeah it's notthat the thoughts don't come and
you can correct me if I'm wrong, pam.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
It's not that the thoughts don't come, it's just
they no longer control you isthat not everybody has what TV
shows as PTSD waking up in thenight screaming.
You know all that and that'sthe stigma that PTSD has gotten,
(34:39):
but I've never had a nightmareabout a death investigation
Interesting I've never had anightmare about a death
investigation, interesting, um.
But I had intrusive thoughts.
So you know, something innocent, like um fourth of july and
(35:01):
that I had to do, and that I hadto do a depth investigation.
I'm considering using fireworksand so when I hear fireworks,
my mind goes to thatinvestigation.
So it's the intrusive thoughts.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
And those are something I'm processing,
getting rid of, and my faith ishelped more than I can say.
And I always tell people theysay can PTSD be healed?
Can it be gone?
Number one I think it can be.
I think our God can do anythinghe wants, yes.
But number two it can be healed.
But it can't be something thatyou just turn the switch off and
ignore at any given point.
It's a lifetime of followingChrist, a lifetime of getting
(35:56):
help, getting therapy when youneed it.
I still go to counseling, Irecommend people go to
counseling.
I still obviously run theorganization and do peer support
and all sorts of other things.
But even once you do get healedfrom it, it's still something
you have to intently work on andbe part of.
It'll try to come back.
The enemy will try to reclaimthe territory that he had before
(36:17):
and luckily we serve a Godthat's mightier than him.
We're going to go ahead andstart to wrap up this episode,
but would you guys stick aroundfor one more?
I'd love to do a part two withyou guys, because you guys have
so much.
I could probably do five parts,but we'll start off with two
parts.
I would love that because I knowour listeners, they want to
hear more and I and I don't wantto make these too long, but one
(36:43):
of you and would one of you andI probably shouldn't put you on
the spot like this, but I'm.
We have people that arelistening, that are afraid to
reach out.
We have people that are arehurting, they don't know what to
do.
They don't know, um, you guysboth know that for first
responders or last responderslike you, pam.
For first responders and lastresponders, um, we a lot of
times don't reach out for helpif we don't trust the source, If
(37:05):
we haven't heard from anotherfirst responder saying hey,
these dudes are solid, thisorganization's solid, this
treatment facility, they're goodpeople.
So, for people that arelistening, number one, what
would you say to them toencourage them to reach out?
Either 1042 Project or theRetreat Center, or just start
the process of reaching out, andthen, if one of you want to
(37:26):
cover that, and then if theother one would close out with
just an encouraging message topeople that may want to reach
out further and know aboutChrist.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
I wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for Christ.
I wouldn't be alive if itwasn't for Christ.
(38:04):
I've had my dealing withdepression, suicide attempt, and
I'm able to walk out of thatdark area into an area full of
life, full of life, full of life, full of life, full of light,
and the only reason I could do.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
That was because of my faith come on me too, man.
I tried it the other way.
It didn't work.
It's like when people come tome it's like do you want to get
better?
The hard way or the easy way?
Because the hard way is is tonot bring christ into it.
You know, the easiest way is tobring Christ into him.
Let him restore you and healyour brain, heal your body, heal
your spirit, heal your soul.
(38:29):
He can do all that, mike, forour brothers and sisters that
are listening, that are afraidto reach out, afraid to make
that first step, because it maybe nurses, ems, fire staff,
dispatchers anyone in publicsafety probably has a wellness
(39:04):
contact, an employer assistanceprogram, EAP that they can
contact if they're struggling.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
One of the biggest lies of the wicked one is that
nobody can help you, thatnothing you do is going to
change anything, nobody that youtalk to.
But that's a lie of the deviland all I would say about that
is be willing to trust God thathe's going to connect you with
the right person at the righttime with the right treatment,
(39:36):
and know that what works for oneperson in coping with our
physical body, the brain, theway that it interacts with our
emotions and the spirit of manthat God has put inside of us,
(39:57):
is to just know that it justtakes one kind word from
somebody else that's been aroundthe block a time or two.
And know that if you contact1042 project or you contact your
chaplain, most departments havea chaplain or a minister that
(40:21):
lives in the area.
Maybe it's just a or a ministerthat lives in the area, Maybe
it's just a member of the citycouncil that you might have a
relationship with that you cango talk to.
It really doesn't matter asmuch who.
It is just that you're willingto reach out for help when you
(40:41):
need it and know that they'rethere to help you.
And there's always somebodythere if you're having a rough
shift or struggling through yourjob or at home.
One of the most challengingparts of my career was walking
through the house, walkingthrough the front door of my
(41:04):
house and knowing that's wherethe real work starts.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
And being able to leave my work at work and not
take that through the housewhere it's going to be
destructive.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
And that's a challenge, you know, but we have
to be able to work at that also, and so, yeah, I think the
help's there.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
We just have to reach out.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
We love you all.
If you're hurting, please don'tdo this.
You don't have to walk alone.
That's what this organizationis for.
That's what God's called us for.
Even if you're a believer ornot a believer, it does not
matter.
That's what this organizationis for.
That's what God's called us for.
Even if you're a believer ornot a believer, it does not
matter.
We want to walk alongside youand make sure you have the
resources and all the tools tolive a healthy life, to save
your careers or your life andyour relationships.
So please reach out to10-42projectcom and thanks for
(41:59):
listening.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com