December 19, 2024 • 51 mins
How do you know if a trail is the right match for your skill level? On this episode of Shawn & Mike Take A Hike, we explore the fascinating world of trail difficulty ratings and give you the tools to decode them like a pro.
Join us as we dive into how trail difficulty is determined, breaking down the factors that influence these ratings, such as elevation gain, distance, terrain type, and weather conditions. We'll guide you through the different rating systems used around the world, from beginner-friendly green trails to challenging black diamonds, and discuss why a “moderate” trail might feel easy to some but grueling to others.
Want to find trail difficulty ratings before your hike? We’ll share tips on where to look—whether it's apps, websites, or on-site trailhead signs—and explain what to do when no official rating is available. Plus, we’ll talk about personal factors, like fitness level and gear, that can impact how you experience a trail.
By the end of this episode, you’ll have the knowledge to confidently select trails that align with your goals and abilities, ensuring safe and enjoyable adventures every time.
Tune in now to level up your trail knowledge and set yourself up for success on your next hike! 🌲🥾
#TrailRatings #HikingPodcast #ShawnAndMikeTakeAHike
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I'm Shawn and I'm Mike and you're listening to Shawn and Mike take a hike.
(00:17):
Welcome to another episode of Shawn and Mike take a hike.
What are we going to talk about today, Shawn?
Today I want to talk about trail difficulty ratings.
We had an episode a couple of weeks ago, maybe a couple of months ago, I'm bad with time,
about trail markings and we briefly touched on difficulty markings on the trail.
(00:46):
But I thought maybe we could have a discussion about the actual difficulty ratings of the
trails.
A, they're not all marked on how difficult they are, but two, just like a broader discussion
about how to determine how difficult these trails are going to be.
Right.
Well, it also goes kind of hand in hand, maybe a quick little follow up to our planning your
(01:12):
episode, not planning your episode, planning your trip, planning your hike, just knowing
what the difficulty of the trail is.
Maybe I want to bypass that section and go maybe a little bit longer, but knowing it's
a little easier.
Yeah.
I think we've kind of touched on this topic in multiple different episodes.
(01:35):
We talked about it in the knowing when to quit episode.
All of these different episodes, it kind of all intertwines, but we've never had a pointed
discussion about how, A, how do you determine how difficult the trail is?
Right.
Then even, let's say you're brand new at this, right?
(01:56):
Because you and I are still fairly new to hiking.
You and I can look at a map and that map can say, okay, this trail that you're going on
is braided moderate.
What the hell does moderate mean?
I mean, I know what moderate the word means, but in terms of hiking, who's saying what
(02:17):
moderate is or who's saying what easy is or who's saying what difficult is?
How do you figure that out and what does that mean for planning your hike?
Right.
Well, not to toot my own horn, but in most aspects of my life, if I see that something
is at a moderate difficulty, I feel like I'm going to excel at that.
(02:42):
It's not necessarily the case when it comes to the trail.
I would agree with you on that because by and large, I feel like, I think everybody
kind of has an inflated stealth sense of self in some way.
Everybody thinks they're better than the easy, everybody thinks they're smarter than average.
(03:07):
That's just a human nature thing.
Give me a difficult challenge.
You and I, however, have been on trails marked moderate and it's like, this is some fucking
bullshit right here.
Right.
We just kept looking.
We're like, okay, this uphill goes way too far.
We're going to be on this for a while.
We did one, was it early?
(03:28):
I think it was this spring, the one that we did.
We're like, okay, we're planning our distances for the day.
It's like, all right, this section is easy, this section is moderate, then it gets easy
again.
I remember on the way out, it was quote unquote, moderate for the entire way out.
(03:50):
You and I were laughing and it's like, okay, this moderate is easier than the easy yesterday
was.
Yeah.
Well, and that was the episode we talked about earlier this year when we were saying how
we were either that out of shape or it was more difficult than the easy claim to be.
(04:11):
That's what they're calling the easy part.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, we were Michigan winter out of shape, but it wasn't our first hike.
Given having said that though, I do think that moderate trail was more difficult than
the easy one we had done the day before.
Anyway, I thought we can have a big discussion about that and tell people, if you're new
(04:37):
to hiking and you don't know that trails are rated, A, let's have a talk about that.
Let's talk about if you do know that trails are rated, but you don't know where to look
to find out what the rating is.
Let's talk about that.
And then even if all of those things, considering all of those, maybe the trail is marked well
(04:59):
and all that, but who's saying what that rating is?
So I just thought we could have a discussion about that.
Yeah.
I think it's going to be a good one.
It might be a little quick, but because like you said, we've kind of touched on these things
in the past, but I think to get it started, trail rating systems, like most are going
(05:28):
to be an easy, a moderate, a difficult or a very difficult or strenuous I've seen.
Easy isn't necessarily a walk in the park, paved, no uphill.
It is just that it's usually a shorter trail.
(05:48):
It's got more even terrain.
The trail is a little wider.
Elevation gain is minimal.
Not a lot of tree roots, not a lot of rocks, things like that.
Not the easiest walk you're ever going to take, but it's as far as the woods and natural
terrain are considered.
It's a little bit more.
(06:09):
It's not going to be big surprises.
It's going to be like a walking path type thing, generally speaking.
You're not going to have any super big, super strenuous, it's accessible to most, the majority
of people it's going to be accessible to.
(06:31):
Usually easy is going to be, if you just see a symbol, the easy symbol is like a green
circle with a gentle rolling squiggle line through the middle of it, maybe is the right
way to say that.
A radio wave?
Yeah, like a gentle, very, no jagged edges.
(06:55):
You would know it if you see it.
If you see the green circle with a nice little smooth squiggle through the middle of it,
that's what easy means.
Like you're saying, those are going to be your wider trails, not a lot of elevation
gain, not a bunch of switchbacks, accessible to the majority of people.
(07:18):
Fairly straight, going to be well marked.
If there is a curve or a turn, it's going to show you where to go.
Pretty easy, not just easy on the feet, but easy on the eyes, like you know you're not
going to get lost, all that kind of stuff.
Yeah, right.
Well, and then, I don't know if this is the time to get into this, but like, so any of
(07:41):
these trails, regardless of the rating, right?
Yep.
Is going to be impacted by a number of things.
Okay, sure.
How much weight are you carrying on your back?
Yep.
How far are you going?
(08:02):
Right?
Like, an easy two mile is going to be different than an easy 12 mile.
Kind of goes without saying, but it's kind of worth saying.
Weather is going to impact.
Like, are you going at a nice time of the year when it's dry and warm, but not too hot?
(08:24):
You can go out for a nice stroll and barely break a sweat.
Or are you going in the winter?
Or in the peak of summer?
Right.
Or are you going in the rain?
That's going to maybe impact the difficulty of the trail.
Absolutely.
It might be easy when it's dry.
(08:44):
I just thought it's not to cut you off, but did it just storm?
Was there a bad storm that rolled through?
Are there multiple trees down that are covering the path now?
Oh my gosh.
Don't even get me started on trees crossing paths.
I didn't even think about that.
That quickly changes the difficulty of a trail.
Absolutely it does.
If you had to be ducking under or climbing over fallen trees, it quickly changes the
(09:10):
difficulty level.
You're saying, did it just storm?
Is there washed out areas that weren't there when the trail was raided?
That sort of thing.
We got distance, we got weather, we got how much you're carrying.
A lot of things can impact the difficulty rating.
(09:34):
I want to get that out of the way kind of early and upfront before we get into a lengthier
conversation because even if it's an easy trail, if you're trying to go 20 miles, I'm
going to be huffing and puffing if I'm walking down a road and it's 20 miles.
You know what I mean?
Right.
It's going to be exponentially harder just because the trail is rated easy, it might
(09:58):
still be hard.
I want to get that disclaimer out there.
Anyway, back to what you were saying.
Like you said, just generally the elevation gain, it's going to be fairly level.
That's saying you're not going to go uphill, you're not going to go downhill.
It's just not going to be that steep of an uphill or steep of a downhill.
It's going to be fairly easy to manage if you are a hiker or you're into the outdoors.
(10:29):
It's going to be pretty easy to handle.
The next step, if we're ready to move on to the next step, would be moderate is what the
next one is.
I think moderate is to where we've been on more difficult trails, but moderate is usually
the ones we have encountered the most.
(10:53):
Moderate is the trail that I like the most.
I feel like you're looking at me like I'm lying.
I like an easy trail, don't get me wrong.
I feel like a moderate trail is more scenic.
It has a little bit more challenge to it.
(11:14):
I like to pretend like I like a little bit of a challenge.
I don't know if in real life I do or not.
The persona that I put forth makes me think that I like a moderate challenge.
You're definitely going to work up more of a sweat on a moderate trail.
I'm going to work up a sweat regardless of whatever.
(11:37):
You're going to work up a sweat regardless.
The symbol for moderate is a blue square and the squiggle is way less gentle rolling than
easy.
(11:58):
Easy is like a nice swoop.
This one is definitely not an easy swoop.
We could probably put this on our website or social media or somewhere.
Let's put these on our website.
We'll put in the post for this episode on our website.
We'll put it where all the different ones are.
Good idea.
This is going to be more elevation gain.
(12:21):
You're going to be huffing and puffing a little bit more.
You're going to have a little bit more of a switchback and just slightly rougher terrain.
You're going to have more tree roots involved, more rocks.
You might come to a river crossing, things like that.
If you have a little bit more experience or are ready to challenge yourself or deal with
(12:41):
what Shawn calls more bullshit, then these are the trails for you.
I don't want to go out in the woods and just feel like I'm just walking on a sidewalk.
I think that's what I'm trying to say.
I want a little bit of the ups and downs.
(13:01):
I want a little... I was going to use the word switchbacks too, and I almost feel like
maybe we should explain what the word switchback means because I feel like if you are new to
this and maybe you haven't encountered trail systems before, maybe you don't know what
a switchback is.
For anybody that doesn't... Well, I consider a switchback.
(13:22):
This might not be the official term or whatever, but a switchback is like you're going down
a steep decline or going up a steep incline.
You're going to walk a little bit north and turn around and go a little bit south, kind
of like an S-curve type of a deal, going down a hill in the mountains or whatever.
(13:43):
You're going to be basically turning around over and over and over.
You're zigzagging your way up so that it's not as steep.
You're still climbing as far, but you're walking a longer distance.
You're zigzagging your way up the hill instead of walking straight up the hill.
You're still going up the same amount of elevation.
Takes you how level... I'm not going to say takes you how level.
Takes you more steps to get there, but you're not climbing straight uphill.
(14:08):
Right.
It is a more steps, less steep way of getting up just as high.
Yeah.
But, yeah.
Okay, perfect.
Okay.
So, it's nice to be on the same page with what a switchback was in case people weren't
familiar with that term.
I mean, sometimes as you're going through a switchback, you're looking at it and you're
(14:31):
just like, I could have just walked right there and I would have made it just fine.
Well, if you walked right there and made it just fine, you'd be huffing and puffing a
lot more because you were... Think of taking two steps at a time rather than one step at
a time on a staircase.
That's exactly what you'd be doing.
You'd be taking bigger steps or whatever and use exerting a lot more energy to get up the
(14:55):
same amount of elevation.
And Mike was halfway joking, but I do refer to that stuff as bullshit.
Every time we're coming up to a steep hill, I always yell back to him if I'm in front.
I'm always like, oh, we got more bullshit coming up.
And when you're out there, it feels like you're going up some bullshit.
I mean, switchbacks are a lifesaver when you're out hiking for a long distance.
(15:22):
I don't know what it is.
Because I agree, I have the same gut reaction.
We could have just walked straight up.
Why are we walking so far?
But it takes so much audio to go straight up the hill.
Because we've had up in the Porkies, there's some hills, they make you go straight up them.
And they freaking suck.
You got to walk like four steps and stop, and then you walk four steps and stop.
(15:44):
Because you're so out of breath and feel like you're going to fall over.
Where, yeah, you might walk a lot further to do the switchback type to get up there,
but it doesn't feel so bad.
Your feet hurt, but your knees don't hurt.
You're not so out of breath.
It's not quite as bad to use that.
(16:05):
Yeah, I vividly remember it.
I think this one was in the Porkies was, I vividly remember going up this section of
trail and we got to the top and my heart was racing.
I looked at my watch, I think it was, and back then I was on a different medication.
So my heart racing at that point was like 140 beats per minute, but it was racing.
(16:29):
I could not catch my breath.
And I was like, that was like maybe a hundred feet, a hundred yards, maybe at the most.
But it was almost exaggerating, but it felt like it was almost straight uphill.
Remember our very first trip, remember the last day when I was super hungover and we
had that hill to get back up onto that bluff that was overlooking Lake of the Clouds?
(16:56):
I had to stop four times going up that hill and not just stop, but prop myself up against
a tree to keep from falling over.
Yeah.
So anyway, switchbacks are a savior.
I mean, they're good for all sorts of things.
So yeah, so that's your moderate, right?
(17:18):
So your moderate is one step up from easy, not going to be as wide a trails, going to
be a little bit more difficult, but still fairly accessible to most people.
You might have a little bit more overgrowth of like ferns or like trees or bushes, whatever
covering the trail.
So it might make the trail disappear a little bit on you from time to time.
(17:39):
So pay attention to your trail markings.
Well, and that brings up a good point that this might be a good time to bring this up
too.
So trails change not only with the weather, but throughout the year, like as ferns grow
in or as a canopy grows above you and all that sort of stuff, like that affects how
(18:01):
difficult the trail is.
So like a trail that you hiked on early in the year before the foliage is filled in,
before the ferns started really popping up, if it was easy then that might be a different
story come, you know, like May, June timeframe when that stuff is all in full bloom and nice
(18:23):
and lush and green and maybe a little bit overgrown, like that can impact the trail
rating.
Like these, these ratings are a good guideline.
They're not like set in stone, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Well, yeah, I think, yeah, things are definitely, definitely subject to change.
(18:48):
Never set in stone.
Take it with a grain of salt.
Do your own research.
I mean, but, and I've mentioned it before is like utilize the communities that are out
there.
There are hiking communities online, Facebook groups, whatever, utilize those communities,
find out what the weather was just in that area.
(19:10):
If you're traveling a couple hours away from home or more, if it was sunny where you live
at, it wasn't necessarily sunny there, so utilize those groups to find out how the weather
has been, what's the terrain like, how are the trails.
Somebody 90% of the time, somebody was just on that trail and they are really, really
(19:33):
looking forward to talking about it.
So I want to put a pin in that conversation and hold that for a minute only because I
have more that I want to say about that, but I want to get through the different ratings
before we get there because there's, you touched on something that I want to go into, but I
want to have a longer conversation about it.
(19:55):
So let's go through the rest of the ratings first and then let's circle back to that if
we can.
Okay, so the next one that I have on my list is labeled difficult, which this one has a
lot of bullshit.
Lots of bullshit on a difficult trail.
Lot of steep climbs, a lot of big elevation gain or loss.
(20:20):
Going uphill is hard, going downhill is just as difficult.
I might hate going downhill more than I hate going uphill if I'm not lying.
Especially if it's a difficult downhill, that means it's a steep downhill.
I feel like I've got more control on the uphill part than the downhill.
For sure.
But that's where, I mean, we've poo-pooed them before.
(20:43):
This is where some hiking sticks or poles will come into play.
If you have stability issues, the more difficult the trail, probably the more use you'll get
out of those.
But yeah, you're definitely going to have the more elevation gain or loss.
You're going to have bigger roots, bigger rocks, loose dirt, maybe some sand, which
(21:09):
I hate walking through loose sand.
It's one of my, I don't know, I'd rather walk through loose gravel or over tree roots.
Sand just wears me out.
I don't know.
But it might require a little bit more effort or a lot more effort to get through these
sections of the trail if they're marked difficult.
(21:32):
And again, we'll put what the different symbols are on our website, but for anybody that doesn't
have time to go to our website or if you're listening to this in a car or whatever, difficult
is going to be a black diamond.
And that black diamond shape is usually going to have a pretty jagged line going through
the center of it.
Yeah.
Well, you can kind of think of these too.
(21:52):
If you've ever gone skiing, downhill skiing, the bunny hills, the easy ones are the green
circles.
The blue squares are the more moderate and the difficult or the black diamonds or the
double black diamonds or whatever.
Very similar.
They can mean different things, but not everybody's gone skiing either.
So another reason on skiing and I mean, I guess worth mentioning too, not every trail
(22:19):
uses this type of marking.
Like there are different, this is true.
This is like the common way to mark, but it's not universal.
And I couldn't even guess what like if anybody is listening internationally, I mean, I guess
these markings are US based markings.
I'm not sure what they are in various countries around the world.
(22:42):
I assume that there's maybe some loose standard, but it's not like you have to use these or
trails don't even have to be rated.
Let's be honest with that too.
You might have trails that you're walking on that don't have an official rating by whoever
made them, but they are private land.
They could be exactly like, yeah.
(23:04):
Or I mean, the big one that always comes up that uses a different system, like as far
as I understand it now, I have never personally been to Yosemite, but my understanding is
Yosemite uses a different, like some sort of decimal system to rate the difficulty of
their trails.
So even in the United States, this is not universal in the United States.
This is just the most widely recognized rating system that Mike and I have encountered at
(23:28):
least.
I think it's pretty widely used.
At least with the websites or the apps or the research we do before we plan our trips,
these are typically the symbols or the terminology that we have run across.
Right.
A lot of the stuff that we find is like Michigan DNR or National Forestry type stuff.
(23:55):
From my experience, most of them use this rating system.
And I say most because not all of them, like I said, not all of them are even rated.
But the ones that you and I come across typically use this rating system, which is nice for
us.
But again, not all of them that we use even use a rating system at all.
So then we'll get into that more in the community stuff that I put a pin in.
(24:18):
So we'll circle back to that.
But yeah, like your difficult trails.
For my money, difficult means difficult.
Yeah.
Like I feel like I'm pretty good with a moderate, but a difficult.
I was going to say moderate.
Moderate can be difficult.
It just depends on your ability level and everything.
(24:40):
You're difficult.
I guess I'm jumping the gun here again, aren't I?
You're fine.
I mean, it's all the conversation.
I just want to talk about it.
Right.
Yeah.
My difficult is different than Shawn’s difficult.
Shawn’s difficult is different than your, the listener's difficult.
(25:00):
Whether he can handle more difficult than me or I can handle more difficult than him.
These terms are just a, I guess for lack of a better term, a rating system on just letting
you know that it's going to be a little bit harder to maneuver.
Well, and even on the difficulty rating, right?
(25:23):
I can't even say, we can say our difficulty is different.
I think we can agree on that.
But you might be fine, Mike, with walking straight up a hill.
But if you're climbing over and ducking under things, that might be harder for you than
walking straight up a hill.
And I might be the complete opposite.
I'm fine with ducking under things or climbing over things, but walking straight up a hill
(25:47):
is hard for me.
So like even in that spectrum, like it can be different.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, absolutely.
And that can change, you know, every day can make that trail a different difficulty though
too, like with that thought.
For sure.
(26:07):
Well, and here's the other thing to mention.
So you know, we talk about like planning your route and all that sort of stuff.
You might have sections of your route on a given day have different ratings throughout
the day.
So like you might start out on a section of trail that is easy.
And then you might have a section of trail that is difficult.
(26:31):
And then after that, you're back to a section of trail that is easy.
And then the next section is also easy.
And then the next section is moderate.
So while you're looking at these difficulty levels, pay attention to, okay, this segment
that you're going on that's difficult, let's say.
How far of a trail segment is that that's marked difficult?
(26:52):
Is it just a quarter of a mile?
You're going 10 miles a day and nine and three quarters of the day is easy.
But a quarter of a mile that day is difficult.
Can you deal with that?
Can you work with that?
Can you handle that for that small section, knowing the rest of the day is marked easy?
(27:15):
You know, that comes into play.
Well, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, because there's you.
How do I say this?
You could potentially add a mile to your already 10 mile day to make it 11 miles, but it's
100 percent easy.
Sure.
(27:36):
Or you could cut three quarters of a mile off.
A lot of the trail systems out there will have those types of options to where you could
cut through this section, cut a mile off or two miles off.
It's going to be a little bit more difficult.
Kind of like the switchback idea, you know?
We had that on our trip earlier this year.
I can't remember where we were here on National Forest somewhere.
(28:02):
Up in the mile area.
Up in the mile area.
Yes, that one.
There was on our way out, there was a fork in the trail.
Both wound up reconnecting and going back to where we were parked.
And we and it was a mileage difference thing.
So it was like you could take a shorter mileage and do a difficult trail or you could take
(28:23):
a slightly longer mileage.
But it was like easy and moderate.
And we kind of made up our minds when we set out the very first day.
We're like, OK, we know we're going a long ways this first day.
When we're heading back to the vehicle, when we get to that fork, let's check in with each
other and find out.
(28:45):
Can you do you feel like you can physically do the difficult or do we feel like physically
we need to do the slightly longer but easier trail?
Right.
I'm pretty sure we picked the easier one.
Pretty sure we did because we were still sore from the day before.
Right.
Being our first trip of the year.
(29:07):
But like Mike is saying, those options are out there, too.
So like look at your maps and see like if are there options?
Like can you modify slightly the route you're taking to accommodate for your difficulty
level?
That's not going to be the case every time.
Like you might not have an option.
You might have to do this difficult section if you want to do this.
(29:31):
But if it is an option, it's worth considering.
Absolutely.
And I'm glad I mean for that trip, especially, but for all of our trips, we usually try to
have something along those lines.
And I'm glad that we do that because I mean that just keeps you and I on the same wavelength
and keeps the communication open of how you're doing at certain points of the trail versus
(29:53):
how I'm doing and all that.
We always try to check in with each other.
Who's huffing and puffing harder?
Who needs to?
Who wants to be done more?
Who's lagging behind a little bit?
Who's huffing and puffing more?
Who's running out of water?
Who needs to stop for a snack?
Does anybody need a potty break?
You and I are in constant communication.
(30:14):
How are you doing?
Do you need a break?
What is going on?
Do we need to slow down?
Do I need to speed up?
Like am I walking too slow for you?
Do you need to go in front because I'm holding you up?
Not that Mike and I get like really far away from each other at any point, but like we
are constantly checking in.
Like how are you doing?
And if you listener are going with another person or a group, I would highly encourage
(30:40):
to check in with each other periodically.
Not just at forks in the road or not just when you're feeling bad, but check in with
the people that you're with.
Because going back to my difficult is not the same as your difficult.
We're all out there and have a good time.
We're all going to the same spot, but let's have fun.
(31:01):
Let's have fun and be safe and be within everybody's skill level.
If you're inviting others to go with you on these trails, be a little bit accommodating.
Make sure that you're able to have those conversations with that person.
And if somebody is quote unquote slowing you down, if they're trying their best, there's
(31:25):
no clock.
Like there's a clock, but there's no real clock.
You just got to get there when you get there.
It's not a race.
You're not getting there for an interview or for a meeting or anything like that.
You're getting there to set up camp and have a fire and shoot the shit.
Enjoy nature, take in the scenery, do your thing.
And just from a safety aspect, don't leave a straggler way behind.
(31:48):
If somebody is slow, don't leave them solo.
Right.
If you're going with multiple people, try not to leave anybody being solo.
Nobody plans to get hurt when they go out there, but it's getting hurt as a possibility.
Try not to be alone.
Well, I will say this.
(32:09):
We are both a little guilty of leaving each other alone.
You and I?
Go ahead.
I was just going to say, but like there'll come a point where like we're a mile away
from the car or we know where I'm about a mile away from camp and you're at the point
where you need a break.
But I know I'm at the point where if I sit down and take a break, it's going to take
(32:32):
a lot for me to get back up.
So like you'll be like, okay, I'm going to stop, take a break.
And I'm like, I'll meet you at camp.
We're right up here.
Like if I don't go ahead to, I have two caveats for that.
One you and I have a conversation before we separate from each other.
Well, absolutely.
(32:52):
100%.
Two, we both have our emergency whistles readily available clipped on the outside of our packs.
We are not so far away from each other that we would not be able to find each other again.
Like we're not getting miles apart.
We are not like leaving one in the dust and not having a conversation beforehand.
(33:14):
You are not leaving me while I am like struggling to survive.
That's an extreme way to put it.
I am not like, can't go on.
Like I'm not so exhausted.
I can't go on.
It's just, okay, I'm going to lessen my pace a little bit.
You're good to keep going.
But generally speaking, even when we do that, you will go to the next intersection or you
(33:37):
will go to the next fork in the trail and then at least make sure that I am within visual
site to see, okay, I'm still on the move.
I'm still on the trail.
I'm still behind you.
We don't get so far apart that it gets to a dangerous.
And I really think if we were on a, what's the level above difficult?
(33:59):
Extremely difficult, right?
Very difficult or strenuous.
So if we were on a trail like that where there were dangerous potential, I don't think we
would separate.
Oh yeah.
Usually when you and I separate, it's like the final stretch to get back to the car.
It's on easy terrain.
Yep.
Absolutely.
(34:20):
No, well yeah, you have to know the physical fitness of the person you're with.
If you're with somebody, you got to know the physical fitness of yourself and your own
mentality and everything.
Like I said, there's times where you want to take a break and I'm just like, I got to
keep going because I hit the stride.
I got to keep going.
(34:41):
Oh, and I'm the same way.
There's parts where you're like, I can't keep going.
I'm like, okay, we're two miles from camp.
I got to be fucking done.
I'm just going to go.
We've talked about Shawn leaving me behind before.
I'll slow down a little bit and be like, you know, we'll get there when we get there.
My legs feel better if I take these little smaller steps or whatever, slow down a little
bit and Shawn just gets into his Superman stride.
(35:07):
It's my Gwen Stefani holler back girl stride.
For some reason, I know why it is.
It's because when I'm out there, I'm like, oh, we got another quarter mile.
Well, quarter mile.
That's one time around the track.
And then as soon as I think that I'm like, few times around that track and I ain't never
(35:28):
going to be like that because I know how I bet girl.
And then that gets stuck in my head and that's all I can think of the entire rest of the
way.
Also not a sponsor, not a sponsor.
And hopefully please go and it's funny.
Don't sue us for using a little bit of your song.
But like in all fairness, that is a good beat to hike to.
Like it's a it is a good beat to put into your step.
(35:50):
It's like staying alive for CPR.
It's like staying alive for CPR.
But yeah, anyway.
OK, so back to the rating system.
So difficult is difficult.
And then above that is very difficult or strenuous, which is I'm just going to read from my notes
here because we have not encountered what I consider very difficult or strenuous reserved
(36:12):
for extreme trails with high elevation gains, long distances and potentially hazardous terrain
such as icy or exposed areas.
Well, I guess we have experienced that in the pictured rocks.
I know, but I don't know as though any of them were labeled as.
I don't think they were.
And when I say exposed or hazardous terrain, I'm thinking more like or the exposed areas.
(36:37):
I'm thinking more like the cliff sides where we are walking on like it wasn't it wasn't
necessarily difficult to walk on.
It was pretty level.
But like directly to your left, not even three inches from the edge of your foot.
It was a sheer drop off to Lake Superior and a lot of rocks.
Yeah, that was like a butt pucker situation for a little bit of it.
(36:58):
You're like, OK, let's not have a rock slide at this moment.
Right.
If the wind could not pick up right now and suck me off the side of this cliff, right,
that would be superb.
So yeah, take that with a grain of salt.
Like I said, it wasn't the most difficult section of trail to walk on or to hike on.
(37:21):
It just a be aware of your surroundings because you can get distracted by the beauty of Lake
Superior and the pictured rocks and like all these other things.
Look up at the wrong moment.
Seeing, you know, you're tripping over something and down goes Frazier.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
You like you really have to be mindful of if you are going to look up, you stop, you
(37:42):
plant both feet.
Twist and look.
Like, I don't know, it is a bit of a pucker situation, like you said, because like you
you'll get you even get like a foot inland and you're just like, OK, thank God.
Yeah, I know.
Right.
But I don't know, very level, very easy train, no tree roots, because it's right at the edge
(38:05):
of a frickin cliff.
But like it just all of a sudden you're just like, OK, this is dangerous now.
Yeah.
And the icon for very difficult is usually two black diamonds side by side with a very
jagged squiggly line like a mountain squiggly line.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(38:25):
Like, yeah, like it's very squiggly, like sharp edges.
Very squiggly.
Other things that could impact like how difficult we've talked about different terrain and different
hills and all that sort of stuff.
But like river crossings can impact the difficulty of a train.
And with river crossings, time of year and amount of recent precipitation can really
(38:48):
impact that, too.
You know, is it a raging river or is it a trickle of a stream?
Right.
And when was that trail rated?
Was it rated when it was a trickle of a stream?
Last week, was it ankle deep and then they got a foot of rain and now it's like, right.
That's what I'm saying.
(39:08):
So like that can impact along with, you know, like we mentioned, weather before and time
of year and all that sort of stuff.
Like those types of crossings can make a difference on how difficult the trail is.
Well, I mean, also the distance, I mean, distance is distance, but in the backcountry, distance
(39:31):
can go a long ways.
Like you and I said, like we found that like there are days where we're like, man, that
seven miles was nothing.
But then we get there and we're like, that three miles was horrible.
You know, like that took everything out of me, that three miles.
So a little bit of a distance depending on the different terrain and all that, that makes
(39:53):
a big difference.
So pay attention to how far you're going and what to expect.
Well, and another thing that's like not really written anywhere, but another thing that can
affect how difficult a trail is, is realistically how many people are on the trail.
Like are you constantly needing to pull over to allow people to go, you know, are you walking
(40:15):
towards people that are passing you in the opposite direction and are you stopping and
going and stopping and going and stopping and going to let them pass?
Hopefully there's a little bit of trade off both ways, but like the more popular the trail
is that adds difficulty.
That is, it's hard to quantify.
Like when they're raiding these trails, it's hard to quantify the population as adding to
(40:40):
the difficulty of the trail, but it really is.
Yeah, well, I mean, they're raiding it, my assumption anyway, I've never raided a trail,
but my assumption is they're raiding it as a continuous flow of motion.
I would assume.
So if it's rated moderate, but you're at an uphill and please people, if somebody's going
(41:04):
uphill, you're going downhill, pull over and stop if you're going downhill.
It is a lot easier to get the momentum back going downhill than it is to pick it back
up going uphill.
I think we, did we do our trail etiquette episode already?
We already did trail etiquette.
So I think we covered that in that, but please for all that is holy, stop if you're going
(41:27):
downhill, let the uphill people keep going past unless they're adamant that you take
over because they want to break.
But anyway, now I lost my train of thought.
Okay, if you lost your train of thought, the only thing that I wanted to add in there,
so those are your main four, there is like a super easy rating and there is stuff technically
(41:52):
above very difficult, but like those four that we touched on are your main ones that
you will mostly see if they use that rating system.
What is the thing with any of those ratings?
Somebody made them up.
Somebody made up what is considered easy, what is considered moderate, what is considered
(42:15):
difficult.
That is true.
And we've said it before, like your difficult might not be the same as my difficult, but
like whoever made up this stuff and whoever labeled these might be different than what
yours is.
So yeah, these trails are rated a certain way, but like take it with a grain of salt.
Take a look at the route.
Is there a spot that's rated easy, but there's a lot of switchbacks in it?
(42:38):
Well, it might be more difficult than a normal easy trail would be.
So it's not foolproof, take it as like gospel method of rating trails.
Yeah, well, I mean that comes back into the do your own research and everything.
(42:59):
We've talked in the past of some apps that we use, like my footpath app where I can plan
it out and then I can virtually walk along it and see the elevation gain and all that
stuff.
I can't see the actual trail.
I can't see the tree roots, all that stuff, but I can get an idea for the elevation gain,
(43:22):
which is usually in my opinion, the thing to look out for.
So I can handle sand, prefer not to, but it just gives you that idea of like, okay, we're
going to have a steep incline.
And then usually it's pretty accurate, like a hundred yards in or like two miles into
(43:43):
this hike, we're going to have a very steep incline for about a hundred yards, gets you
mentally prepared for it, like all that kind of stuff to prep ahead of time.
There are apps that are mostly user input, like all trails that where you go, you can
(44:04):
look at them and they're great resources.
They have a lot of input on a lot of trails, but again, they are a lot of user inputs.
So if Josh Mo was on the trail three weeks ago and said, this is a very easy hike.
I did this in about an hour, blah, blah, blah.
My dogs loved it.
And then next thing you know, you get out there and you're like, okay, this is a lot
(44:27):
of bullshit.
It's overgrown, ferns are everywhere.
I got 20 ticks.
So you might not have the same experience because your idea of easy is different.
So that is exactly the pin that I wanted to circle back to.
So we're talking about like, all these communities out there that are willing to give you their
(44:49):
input and all that sort of stuff and all these apps.
And I don't mean to pick on all trails, but all trails is one of the really popular ones.
All trails is great for a lot of things.
I use it when we're doing research on the different areas that we want to go.
I look up all trails.
How long is this in real GPS data?
Where are people saying about it?
(45:11):
I use it.
Anytime it is community input based, take it with an extra grain of salt because absolutely
these people.
What do you mean these people?
(45:31):
I don't know.
I mean, some of these people, what they consider easy is like the hardest trail I've ever walked
on.
You know what I'm saying?
It doesn't tell you the whole story.
It is a great resource.
We've run into people that have done the entire picture rocks in one day.
Exactly 42 miles in one day.
(45:52):
I ain't doing 42 miles in one day.
The one guy, he had like a camel back on and that was it because he was doing end to end
in less than 24 hours and wasn't stopping.
He had candy bars and water.
That was it.
The man was insane.
Good for him.
Hope he's great.
Yeah, good for him.
I don't know what a guy like that would rate what was essentially a trail so difficult
(46:16):
that you and I ended our trip early because I was huffing and puffing so bad.
You know what I'm saying?
While these apps and communities are great and people are wonderful at giving feedback
and thank you so much if any of the listeners are people that contribute to that sort of
stuff, it is all very helpful.
Well, and a caveat to that that I'll add is that I do the research on the all trails and
(46:42):
all that stuff, but then I go into the Facebook communities or the Instagrams or whatever.
I'm aging myself with Facebook, but I'll go into the message boards or whatever and just
ask how is this trail, all that kind of stuff, mind you, this is my experience level or if
they say it's the easiest trail ever or whatever, just be like, mind you, I'm brand new or whatever.
(47:05):
How difficult is it if you're brand new?
You can get a little bit of a back and forth if you go onto an actual social media app
rather than just an app where people like a Yelp review for trails type of a deal.
I don't think, I mean for you and I, I know how you and I do our research and how we meticulously
(47:30):
try to plan for every scenario that we hike into, which I think is a little bit excessive
realistically for what we do, but we take all of that, your apps and your communities
and all that, and then on top of that, we still download a topographical map of the
area and look at this is what the topography, man, I cannot say that word, topography of
(47:59):
the area looks like and according to this map, even though everybody says it's easy
or moderate, according to this, we're going straight up a hill in this section.
Maybe for the average of the 10 miles, maybe it's considered moderate, but this section
right here where we're going to be nine miles in, this section right here is going to be
(48:25):
really hard it looks like.
Even though they say it's easy or moderate, it looks like this is going to be really hard.
So ratings are ratings and use them as a guideline, but I wouldn't swear by that as a single
source type of thing.
Well, it's like your favorite restaurant, somebody rated it a one star and you give
(48:47):
it a five star.
So it's all preference and all experience level too.
So take it with a grain of salt, do your own research.
I did decide something just now and I hope I remember to do it the next time we record
is that I'm going to have a challenge for you to say the word topographical or topography.
(49:12):
I can't say that word.
I don't know what it is.
I struggle with that one.
I know how it's spelled and I know how it should be pronounced, but I just can't get
it to come out of my mouth.
We'll quiz you until you can get it.
The other thing that I want to mention is like ratings might be regional too.
(49:32):
Like easy in the Midwest might not be the same as easy in the Rocky Mountains or the
Grand Canyon or the Grand Canyon or whatever.
You might have what I would consider a difficult trail and it might be rated easy in this park
because maybe it is the easiest trail in this park.
(49:55):
That doesn't mean that it's quote unquote easy with what you're used to being an easy
trail.
You know, so regional, there might be regional variations, I guess is what I'm trying to
say.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It could be relative to that trail system.
Yeah.
For sure.
(50:17):
So I think I have exhausted all of my notes on this one.
Okay.
So have I?
Okay, good.
All right.
Well, perfect.
So that's like, we got, seems like a good one.
So if anybody has any questions, comments or concerns about anything that we have said
over the course of this podcast, you disagree with our assessments of all trails or you
(50:42):
have an app that you swear by because it's always accurate for you or any of the things.
You can always reach us on our email, which is shawnmikehike at gmail.com on all the major
socials at shawnmikehike or directly on our website, shawnmikehike.com.
I will make sure to put images of what the different rating systems are on our website
(51:04):
under this episode.
So if you want to take a look at what those are and you don't know what to search for
on Google, just visit our website, I'll make sure that I post a picture of those on this
episode.
Speaking of episodes, please rate, review and subscribe anywhere that you're listening
to this episode.
It certainly helps get the word out about the podcast and until next time, Mike, go
(51:24):
take a hike.
Yeah, go take a difficult hike, huh?
Yeah, thanks.
We'll see you guys in a couple of weeks.
See you.
I'm Shawn and I'm Mike and you're listening to Shawn and Mike take a hike.
(00:17):
Welcome to another episode of Shawn and Mike take a hike.
What are we going to talk about today, Shawn?
Today I want to talk about trail difficulty ratings.
We had an episode a couple of weeks ago, maybe a couple of months ago, I'm bad with time,
about trail markings and we briefly touched on difficulty markings on the trail.
(00:46):
But I thought maybe we could have a discussion about the actual difficulty ratings of the
trails.
A, they're not all marked on how difficult they are, but two, just like a broader discussion
about how to determine how difficult these trails are going to be.
Right.
Well, it also goes kind of hand in hand, maybe a quick little follow up to our planning your
(01:12):
episode, not planning your episode, planning your trip, planning your hike, just knowing
what the difficulty of the trail is.
Maybe I want to bypass that section and go maybe a little bit longer, but knowing it's
a little easier.
Yeah.
I think we've kind of touched on this topic in multiple different episodes.
(01:35):
We talked about it in the knowing when to quit episode.
All of these different episodes, it kind of all intertwines, but we've never had a pointed
discussion about how, A, how do you determine how difficult the trail is?
Right.
Then even, let's say you're brand new at this, right?
(01:56):
Because you and I are still fairly new to hiking.
You and I can look at a map and that map can say, okay, this trail that you're going on
is braided moderate.
What the hell does moderate mean?
I mean, I know what moderate the word means, but in terms of hiking, who's saying what
(02:17):
moderate is or who's saying what easy is or who's saying what difficult is?
How do you figure that out and what does that mean for planning your hike?
Right.
Well, not to toot my own horn, but in most aspects of my life, if I see that something
is at a moderate difficulty, I feel like I'm going to excel at that.
(02:42):
It's not necessarily the case when it comes to the trail.
I would agree with you on that because by and large, I feel like, I think everybody
kind of has an inflated stealth sense of self in some way.
Everybody thinks they're better than the easy, everybody thinks they're smarter than average.
(03:07):
That's just a human nature thing.
Give me a difficult challenge.
You and I, however, have been on trails marked moderate and it's like, this is some fucking
bullshit right here.
Right.
We just kept looking.
We're like, okay, this uphill goes way too far.
We're going to be on this for a while.
We did one, was it early?
(03:28):
I think it was this spring, the one that we did.
We're like, okay, we're planning our distances for the day.
It's like, all right, this section is easy, this section is moderate, then it gets easy
again.
I remember on the way out, it was quote unquote, moderate for the entire way out.
(03:50):
You and I were laughing and it's like, okay, this moderate is easier than the easy yesterday
was.
Yeah.
Well, and that was the episode we talked about earlier this year when we were saying how
we were either that out of shape or it was more difficult than the easy claim to be.
(04:11):
That's what they're calling the easy part.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, we were Michigan winter out of shape, but it wasn't our first hike.
Given having said that though, I do think that moderate trail was more difficult than
the easy one we had done the day before.
Anyway, I thought we can have a big discussion about that and tell people, if you're new
(04:37):
to hiking and you don't know that trails are rated, A, let's have a talk about that.
Let's talk about if you do know that trails are rated, but you don't know where to look
to find out what the rating is.
Let's talk about that.
And then even if all of those things, considering all of those, maybe the trail is marked well
(04:59):
and all that, but who's saying what that rating is?
So I just thought we could have a discussion about that.
Yeah.
I think it's going to be a good one.
It might be a little quick, but because like you said, we've kind of touched on these things
in the past, but I think to get it started, trail rating systems, like most are going
(05:28):
to be an easy, a moderate, a difficult or a very difficult or strenuous I've seen.
Easy isn't necessarily a walk in the park, paved, no uphill.
It is just that it's usually a shorter trail.
(05:48):
It's got more even terrain.
The trail is a little wider.
Elevation gain is minimal.
Not a lot of tree roots, not a lot of rocks, things like that.
Not the easiest walk you're ever going to take, but it's as far as the woods and natural
terrain are considered.
It's a little bit more.
(06:09):
It's not going to be big surprises.
It's going to be like a walking path type thing, generally speaking.
You're not going to have any super big, super strenuous, it's accessible to most, the majority
of people it's going to be accessible to.
(06:31):
Usually easy is going to be, if you just see a symbol, the easy symbol is like a green
circle with a gentle rolling squiggle line through the middle of it, maybe is the right
way to say that.
A radio wave?
Yeah, like a gentle, very, no jagged edges.
(06:55):
You would know it if you see it.
If you see the green circle with a nice little smooth squiggle through the middle of it,
that's what easy means.
Like you're saying, those are going to be your wider trails, not a lot of elevation
gain, not a bunch of switchbacks, accessible to the majority of people.
(07:18):
Fairly straight, going to be well marked.
If there is a curve or a turn, it's going to show you where to go.
Pretty easy, not just easy on the feet, but easy on the eyes, like you know you're not
going to get lost, all that kind of stuff.
Yeah, right.
Well, and then, I don't know if this is the time to get into this, but like, so any of
(07:41):
these trails, regardless of the rating, right?
Yep.
Is going to be impacted by a number of things.
Okay, sure.
How much weight are you carrying on your back?
Yep.
How far are you going?
(08:02):
Right?
Like, an easy two mile is going to be different than an easy 12 mile.
Kind of goes without saying, but it's kind of worth saying.
Weather is going to impact.
Like, are you going at a nice time of the year when it's dry and warm, but not too hot?
(08:24):
You can go out for a nice stroll and barely break a sweat.
Or are you going in the winter?
Or in the peak of summer?
Right.
Or are you going in the rain?
That's going to maybe impact the difficulty of the trail.
Absolutely.
It might be easy when it's dry.
(08:44):
I just thought it's not to cut you off, but did it just storm?
Was there a bad storm that rolled through?
Are there multiple trees down that are covering the path now?
Oh my gosh.
Don't even get me started on trees crossing paths.
I didn't even think about that.
That quickly changes the difficulty of a trail.
Absolutely it does.
If you had to be ducking under or climbing over fallen trees, it quickly changes the
(09:10):
difficulty level.
You're saying, did it just storm?
Is there washed out areas that weren't there when the trail was raided?
That sort of thing.
We got distance, we got weather, we got how much you're carrying.
A lot of things can impact the difficulty rating.
(09:34):
I want to get that out of the way kind of early and upfront before we get into a lengthier
conversation because even if it's an easy trail, if you're trying to go 20 miles, I'm
going to be huffing and puffing if I'm walking down a road and it's 20 miles.
You know what I mean?
Right.
It's going to be exponentially harder just because the trail is rated easy, it might
(09:58):
still be hard.
I want to get that disclaimer out there.
Anyway, back to what you were saying.
Like you said, just generally the elevation gain, it's going to be fairly level.
That's saying you're not going to go uphill, you're not going to go downhill.
It's just not going to be that steep of an uphill or steep of a downhill.
It's going to be fairly easy to manage if you are a hiker or you're into the outdoors.
(10:29):
It's going to be pretty easy to handle.
The next step, if we're ready to move on to the next step, would be moderate is what the
next one is.
I think moderate is to where we've been on more difficult trails, but moderate is usually
the ones we have encountered the most.
(10:53):
Moderate is the trail that I like the most.
I feel like you're looking at me like I'm lying.
I like an easy trail, don't get me wrong.
I feel like a moderate trail is more scenic.
It has a little bit more challenge to it.
(11:14):
I like to pretend like I like a little bit of a challenge.
I don't know if in real life I do or not.
The persona that I put forth makes me think that I like a moderate challenge.
You're definitely going to work up more of a sweat on a moderate trail.
I'm going to work up a sweat regardless of whatever.
(11:37):
You're going to work up a sweat regardless.
The symbol for moderate is a blue square and the squiggle is way less gentle rolling than
easy.
(11:58):
Easy is like a nice swoop.
This one is definitely not an easy swoop.
We could probably put this on our website or social media or somewhere.
Let's put these on our website.
We'll put in the post for this episode on our website.
We'll put it where all the different ones are.
Good idea.
This is going to be more elevation gain.
(12:21):
You're going to be huffing and puffing a little bit more.
You're going to have a little bit more of a switchback and just slightly rougher terrain.
You're going to have more tree roots involved, more rocks.
You might come to a river crossing, things like that.
If you have a little bit more experience or are ready to challenge yourself or deal with
(12:41):
what Shawn calls more bullshit, then these are the trails for you.
I don't want to go out in the woods and just feel like I'm just walking on a sidewalk.
I think that's what I'm trying to say.
I want a little bit of the ups and downs.
(13:01):
I want a little... I was going to use the word switchbacks too, and I almost feel like
maybe we should explain what the word switchback means because I feel like if you are new to
this and maybe you haven't encountered trail systems before, maybe you don't know what
a switchback is.
For anybody that doesn't... Well, I consider a switchback.
(13:22):
This might not be the official term or whatever, but a switchback is like you're going down
a steep decline or going up a steep incline.
You're going to walk a little bit north and turn around and go a little bit south, kind
of like an S-curve type of a deal, going down a hill in the mountains or whatever.
(13:43):
You're going to be basically turning around over and over and over.
You're zigzagging your way up so that it's not as steep.
You're still climbing as far, but you're walking a longer distance.
You're zigzagging your way up the hill instead of walking straight up the hill.
You're still going up the same amount of elevation.
Takes you how level... I'm not going to say takes you how level.
Takes you more steps to get there, but you're not climbing straight uphill.
(14:08):
Right.
It is a more steps, less steep way of getting up just as high.
Yeah.
But, yeah.
Okay, perfect.
Okay.
So, it's nice to be on the same page with what a switchback was in case people weren't
familiar with that term.
I mean, sometimes as you're going through a switchback, you're looking at it and you're
(14:31):
just like, I could have just walked right there and I would have made it just fine.
Well, if you walked right there and made it just fine, you'd be huffing and puffing a
lot more because you were... Think of taking two steps at a time rather than one step at
a time on a staircase.
That's exactly what you'd be doing.
You'd be taking bigger steps or whatever and use exerting a lot more energy to get up the
(14:55):
same amount of elevation.
And Mike was halfway joking, but I do refer to that stuff as bullshit.
Every time we're coming up to a steep hill, I always yell back to him if I'm in front.
I'm always like, oh, we got more bullshit coming up.
And when you're out there, it feels like you're going up some bullshit.
I mean, switchbacks are a lifesaver when you're out hiking for a long distance.
(15:22):
I don't know what it is.
Because I agree, I have the same gut reaction.
We could have just walked straight up.
Why are we walking so far?
But it takes so much audio to go straight up the hill.
Because we've had up in the Porkies, there's some hills, they make you go straight up them.
And they freaking suck.
You got to walk like four steps and stop, and then you walk four steps and stop.
(15:44):
Because you're so out of breath and feel like you're going to fall over.
Where, yeah, you might walk a lot further to do the switchback type to get up there,
but it doesn't feel so bad.
Your feet hurt, but your knees don't hurt.
You're not so out of breath.
It's not quite as bad to use that.
(16:05):
Yeah, I vividly remember it.
I think this one was in the Porkies was, I vividly remember going up this section of
trail and we got to the top and my heart was racing.
I looked at my watch, I think it was, and back then I was on a different medication.
So my heart racing at that point was like 140 beats per minute, but it was racing.
(16:29):
I could not catch my breath.
And I was like, that was like maybe a hundred feet, a hundred yards, maybe at the most.
But it was almost exaggerating, but it felt like it was almost straight uphill.
Remember our very first trip, remember the last day when I was super hungover and we
had that hill to get back up onto that bluff that was overlooking Lake of the Clouds?
(16:56):
I had to stop four times going up that hill and not just stop, but prop myself up against
a tree to keep from falling over.
Yeah.
So anyway, switchbacks are a savior.
I mean, they're good for all sorts of things.
So yeah, so that's your moderate, right?
(17:18):
So your moderate is one step up from easy, not going to be as wide a trails, going to
be a little bit more difficult, but still fairly accessible to most people.
You might have a little bit more overgrowth of like ferns or like trees or bushes, whatever
covering the trail.
So it might make the trail disappear a little bit on you from time to time.
(17:39):
So pay attention to your trail markings.
Well, and that brings up a good point that this might be a good time to bring this up
too.
So trails change not only with the weather, but throughout the year, like as ferns grow
in or as a canopy grows above you and all that sort of stuff, like that affects how
(18:01):
difficult the trail is.
So like a trail that you hiked on early in the year before the foliage is filled in,
before the ferns started really popping up, if it was easy then that might be a different
story come, you know, like May, June timeframe when that stuff is all in full bloom and nice
(18:23):
and lush and green and maybe a little bit overgrown, like that can impact the trail
rating.
Like these, these ratings are a good guideline.
They're not like set in stone, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Well, yeah, I think, yeah, things are definitely, definitely subject to change.
(18:48):
Never set in stone.
Take it with a grain of salt.
Do your own research.
I mean, but, and I've mentioned it before is like utilize the communities that are out
there.
There are hiking communities online, Facebook groups, whatever, utilize those communities,
find out what the weather was just in that area.
(19:10):
If you're traveling a couple hours away from home or more, if it was sunny where you live
at, it wasn't necessarily sunny there, so utilize those groups to find out how the weather
has been, what's the terrain like, how are the trails.
Somebody 90% of the time, somebody was just on that trail and they are really, really
(19:33):
looking forward to talking about it.
So I want to put a pin in that conversation and hold that for a minute only because I
have more that I want to say about that, but I want to get through the different ratings
before we get there because there's, you touched on something that I want to go into, but I
want to have a longer conversation about it.
(19:55):
So let's go through the rest of the ratings first and then let's circle back to that if
we can.
Okay, so the next one that I have on my list is labeled difficult, which this one has a
lot of bullshit.
Lots of bullshit on a difficult trail.
Lot of steep climbs, a lot of big elevation gain or loss.
(20:20):
Going uphill is hard, going downhill is just as difficult.
I might hate going downhill more than I hate going uphill if I'm not lying.
Especially if it's a difficult downhill, that means it's a steep downhill.
I feel like I've got more control on the uphill part than the downhill.
For sure.
But that's where, I mean, we've poo-pooed them before.
(20:43):
This is where some hiking sticks or poles will come into play.
If you have stability issues, the more difficult the trail, probably the more use you'll get
out of those.
But yeah, you're definitely going to have the more elevation gain or loss.
You're going to have bigger roots, bigger rocks, loose dirt, maybe some sand, which
(21:09):
I hate walking through loose sand.
It's one of my, I don't know, I'd rather walk through loose gravel or over tree roots.
Sand just wears me out.
I don't know.
But it might require a little bit more effort or a lot more effort to get through these
sections of the trail if they're marked difficult.
(21:32):
And again, we'll put what the different symbols are on our website, but for anybody that doesn't
have time to go to our website or if you're listening to this in a car or whatever, difficult
is going to be a black diamond.
And that black diamond shape is usually going to have a pretty jagged line going through
the center of it.
Yeah.
Well, you can kind of think of these too.
(21:52):
If you've ever gone skiing, downhill skiing, the bunny hills, the easy ones are the green
circles.
The blue squares are the more moderate and the difficult or the black diamonds or the
double black diamonds or whatever.
Very similar.
They can mean different things, but not everybody's gone skiing either.
So another reason on skiing and I mean, I guess worth mentioning too, not every trail
(22:19):
uses this type of marking.
Like there are different, this is true.
This is like the common way to mark, but it's not universal.
And I couldn't even guess what like if anybody is listening internationally, I mean, I guess
these markings are US based markings.
I'm not sure what they are in various countries around the world.
(22:42):
I assume that there's maybe some loose standard, but it's not like you have to use these or
trails don't even have to be rated.
Let's be honest with that too.
You might have trails that you're walking on that don't have an official rating by whoever
made them, but they are private land.
They could be exactly like, yeah.
(23:04):
Or I mean, the big one that always comes up that uses a different system, like as far
as I understand it now, I have never personally been to Yosemite, but my understanding is
Yosemite uses a different, like some sort of decimal system to rate the difficulty of
their trails.
So even in the United States, this is not universal in the United States.
This is just the most widely recognized rating system that Mike and I have encountered at
(23:28):
least.
I think it's pretty widely used.
At least with the websites or the apps or the research we do before we plan our trips,
these are typically the symbols or the terminology that we have run across.
Right.
A lot of the stuff that we find is like Michigan DNR or National Forestry type stuff.
(23:55):
From my experience, most of them use this rating system.
And I say most because not all of them, like I said, not all of them are even rated.
But the ones that you and I come across typically use this rating system, which is nice for
us.
But again, not all of them that we use even use a rating system at all.
So then we'll get into that more in the community stuff that I put a pin in.
(24:18):
So we'll circle back to that.
But yeah, like your difficult trails.
For my money, difficult means difficult.
Yeah.
Like I feel like I'm pretty good with a moderate, but a difficult.
I was going to say moderate.
Moderate can be difficult.
It just depends on your ability level and everything.
(24:40):
You're difficult.
I guess I'm jumping the gun here again, aren't I?
You're fine.
I mean, it's all the conversation.
I just want to talk about it.
Right.
Yeah.
My difficult is different than Shawn’s difficult.
Shawn’s difficult is different than your, the listener's difficult.
(25:00):
Whether he can handle more difficult than me or I can handle more difficult than him.
These terms are just a, I guess for lack of a better term, a rating system on just letting
you know that it's going to be a little bit harder to maneuver.
Well, and even on the difficulty rating, right?
(25:23):
I can't even say, we can say our difficulty is different.
I think we can agree on that.
But you might be fine, Mike, with walking straight up a hill.
But if you're climbing over and ducking under things, that might be harder for you than
walking straight up a hill.
And I might be the complete opposite.
I'm fine with ducking under things or climbing over things, but walking straight up a hill
(25:47):
is hard for me.
So like even in that spectrum, like it can be different.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, absolutely.
And that can change, you know, every day can make that trail a different difficulty though
too, like with that thought.
For sure.
(26:07):
Well, and here's the other thing to mention.
So you know, we talk about like planning your route and all that sort of stuff.
You might have sections of your route on a given day have different ratings throughout
the day.
So like you might start out on a section of trail that is easy.
And then you might have a section of trail that is difficult.
(26:31):
And then after that, you're back to a section of trail that is easy.
And then the next section is also easy.
And then the next section is moderate.
So while you're looking at these difficulty levels, pay attention to, okay, this segment
that you're going on that's difficult, let's say.
How far of a trail segment is that that's marked difficult?
(26:52):
Is it just a quarter of a mile?
You're going 10 miles a day and nine and three quarters of the day is easy.
But a quarter of a mile that day is difficult.
Can you deal with that?
Can you work with that?
Can you handle that for that small section, knowing the rest of the day is marked easy?
(27:15):
You know, that comes into play.
Well, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, because there's you.
How do I say this?
You could potentially add a mile to your already 10 mile day to make it 11 miles, but it's
100 percent easy.
Sure.
(27:36):
Or you could cut three quarters of a mile off.
A lot of the trail systems out there will have those types of options to where you could
cut through this section, cut a mile off or two miles off.
It's going to be a little bit more difficult.
Kind of like the switchback idea, you know?
We had that on our trip earlier this year.
I can't remember where we were here on National Forest somewhere.
(28:02):
Up in the mile area.
Up in the mile area.
Yes, that one.
There was on our way out, there was a fork in the trail.
Both wound up reconnecting and going back to where we were parked.
And we and it was a mileage difference thing.
So it was like you could take a shorter mileage and do a difficult trail or you could take
(28:23):
a slightly longer mileage.
But it was like easy and moderate.
And we kind of made up our minds when we set out the very first day.
We're like, OK, we know we're going a long ways this first day.
When we're heading back to the vehicle, when we get to that fork, let's check in with each
other and find out.
(28:45):
Can you do you feel like you can physically do the difficult or do we feel like physically
we need to do the slightly longer but easier trail?
Right.
I'm pretty sure we picked the easier one.
Pretty sure we did because we were still sore from the day before.
Right.
Being our first trip of the year.
(29:07):
But like Mike is saying, those options are out there, too.
So like look at your maps and see like if are there options?
Like can you modify slightly the route you're taking to accommodate for your difficulty
level?
That's not going to be the case every time.
Like you might not have an option.
You might have to do this difficult section if you want to do this.
(29:31):
But if it is an option, it's worth considering.
Absolutely.
And I'm glad I mean for that trip, especially, but for all of our trips, we usually try to
have something along those lines.
And I'm glad that we do that because I mean that just keeps you and I on the same wavelength
and keeps the communication open of how you're doing at certain points of the trail versus
(29:53):
how I'm doing and all that.
We always try to check in with each other.
Who's huffing and puffing harder?
Who needs to?
Who wants to be done more?
Who's lagging behind a little bit?
Who's huffing and puffing more?
Who's running out of water?
Who needs to stop for a snack?
Does anybody need a potty break?
You and I are in constant communication.
(30:14):
How are you doing?
Do you need a break?
What is going on?
Do we need to slow down?
Do I need to speed up?
Like am I walking too slow for you?
Do you need to go in front because I'm holding you up?
Not that Mike and I get like really far away from each other at any point, but like we
are constantly checking in.
Like how are you doing?
And if you listener are going with another person or a group, I would highly encourage
(30:40):
to check in with each other periodically.
Not just at forks in the road or not just when you're feeling bad, but check in with
the people that you're with.
Because going back to my difficult is not the same as your difficult.
We're all out there and have a good time.
We're all going to the same spot, but let's have fun.
(31:01):
Let's have fun and be safe and be within everybody's skill level.
If you're inviting others to go with you on these trails, be a little bit accommodating.
Make sure that you're able to have those conversations with that person.
And if somebody is quote unquote slowing you down, if they're trying their best, there's
(31:25):
no clock.
Like there's a clock, but there's no real clock.
You just got to get there when you get there.
It's not a race.
You're not getting there for an interview or for a meeting or anything like that.
You're getting there to set up camp and have a fire and shoot the shit.
Enjoy nature, take in the scenery, do your thing.
And just from a safety aspect, don't leave a straggler way behind.
(31:48):
If somebody is slow, don't leave them solo.
Right.
If you're going with multiple people, try not to leave anybody being solo.
Nobody plans to get hurt when they go out there, but it's getting hurt as a possibility.
Try not to be alone.
Well, I will say this.
(32:09):
We are both a little guilty of leaving each other alone.
You and I?
Go ahead.
I was just going to say, but like there'll come a point where like we're a mile away
from the car or we know where I'm about a mile away from camp and you're at the point
where you need a break.
But I know I'm at the point where if I sit down and take a break, it's going to take
(32:32):
a lot for me to get back up.
So like you'll be like, okay, I'm going to stop, take a break.
And I'm like, I'll meet you at camp.
We're right up here.
Like if I don't go ahead to, I have two caveats for that.
One you and I have a conversation before we separate from each other.
Well, absolutely.
(32:52):
100%.
Two, we both have our emergency whistles readily available clipped on the outside of our packs.
We are not so far away from each other that we would not be able to find each other again.
Like we're not getting miles apart.
We are not like leaving one in the dust and not having a conversation beforehand.
(33:14):
You are not leaving me while I am like struggling to survive.
That's an extreme way to put it.
I am not like, can't go on.
Like I'm not so exhausted.
I can't go on.
It's just, okay, I'm going to lessen my pace a little bit.
You're good to keep going.
But generally speaking, even when we do that, you will go to the next intersection or you
(33:37):
will go to the next fork in the trail and then at least make sure that I am within visual
site to see, okay, I'm still on the move.
I'm still on the trail.
I'm still behind you.
We don't get so far apart that it gets to a dangerous.
And I really think if we were on a, what's the level above difficult?
(33:59):
Extremely difficult, right?
Very difficult or strenuous.
So if we were on a trail like that where there were dangerous potential, I don't think we
would separate.
Oh yeah.
Usually when you and I separate, it's like the final stretch to get back to the car.
It's on easy terrain.
Yep.
Absolutely.
(34:20):
No, well yeah, you have to know the physical fitness of the person you're with.
If you're with somebody, you got to know the physical fitness of yourself and your own
mentality and everything.
Like I said, there's times where you want to take a break and I'm just like, I got to
keep going because I hit the stride.
I got to keep going.
(34:41):
Oh, and I'm the same way.
There's parts where you're like, I can't keep going.
I'm like, okay, we're two miles from camp.
I got to be fucking done.
I'm just going to go.
We've talked about Shawn leaving me behind before.
I'll slow down a little bit and be like, you know, we'll get there when we get there.
My legs feel better if I take these little smaller steps or whatever, slow down a little
bit and Shawn just gets into his Superman stride.
(35:07):
It's my Gwen Stefani holler back girl stride.
For some reason, I know why it is.
It's because when I'm out there, I'm like, oh, we got another quarter mile.
Well, quarter mile.
That's one time around the track.
And then as soon as I think that I'm like, few times around that track and I ain't never
(35:28):
going to be like that because I know how I bet girl.
And then that gets stuck in my head and that's all I can think of the entire rest of the
way.
Also not a sponsor, not a sponsor.
And hopefully please go and it's funny.
Don't sue us for using a little bit of your song.
But like in all fairness, that is a good beat to hike to.
Like it's a it is a good beat to put into your step.
(35:50):
It's like staying alive for CPR.
It's like staying alive for CPR.
But yeah, anyway.
OK, so back to the rating system.
So difficult is difficult.
And then above that is very difficult or strenuous, which is I'm just going to read from my notes
here because we have not encountered what I consider very difficult or strenuous reserved
(36:12):
for extreme trails with high elevation gains, long distances and potentially hazardous terrain
such as icy or exposed areas.
Well, I guess we have experienced that in the pictured rocks.
I know, but I don't know as though any of them were labeled as.
I don't think they were.
And when I say exposed or hazardous terrain, I'm thinking more like or the exposed areas.
(36:37):
I'm thinking more like the cliff sides where we are walking on like it wasn't it wasn't
necessarily difficult to walk on.
It was pretty level.
But like directly to your left, not even three inches from the edge of your foot.
It was a sheer drop off to Lake Superior and a lot of rocks.
Yeah, that was like a butt pucker situation for a little bit of it.
(36:58):
You're like, OK, let's not have a rock slide at this moment.
Right.
If the wind could not pick up right now and suck me off the side of this cliff, right,
that would be superb.
So yeah, take that with a grain of salt.
Like I said, it wasn't the most difficult section of trail to walk on or to hike on.
(37:21):
It just a be aware of your surroundings because you can get distracted by the beauty of Lake
Superior and the pictured rocks and like all these other things.
Look up at the wrong moment.
Seeing, you know, you're tripping over something and down goes Frazier.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
You like you really have to be mindful of if you are going to look up, you stop, you
(37:42):
plant both feet.
Twist and look.
Like, I don't know, it is a bit of a pucker situation, like you said, because like you
you'll get you even get like a foot inland and you're just like, OK, thank God.
Yeah, I know.
Right.
But I don't know, very level, very easy train, no tree roots, because it's right at the edge
(38:05):
of a frickin cliff.
But like it just all of a sudden you're just like, OK, this is dangerous now.
Yeah.
And the icon for very difficult is usually two black diamonds side by side with a very
jagged squiggly line like a mountain squiggly line.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(38:25):
Like, yeah, like it's very squiggly, like sharp edges.
Very squiggly.
Other things that could impact like how difficult we've talked about different terrain and different
hills and all that sort of stuff.
But like river crossings can impact the difficulty of a train.
And with river crossings, time of year and amount of recent precipitation can really
(38:48):
impact that, too.
You know, is it a raging river or is it a trickle of a stream?
Right.
And when was that trail rated?
Was it rated when it was a trickle of a stream?
Last week, was it ankle deep and then they got a foot of rain and now it's like, right.
That's what I'm saying.
(39:08):
So like that can impact along with, you know, like we mentioned, weather before and time
of year and all that sort of stuff.
Like those types of crossings can make a difference on how difficult the trail is.
Well, I mean, also the distance, I mean, distance is distance, but in the backcountry, distance
(39:31):
can go a long ways.
Like you and I said, like we found that like there are days where we're like, man, that
seven miles was nothing.
But then we get there and we're like, that three miles was horrible.
You know, like that took everything out of me, that three miles.
So a little bit of a distance depending on the different terrain and all that, that makes
(39:53):
a big difference.
So pay attention to how far you're going and what to expect.
Well, and another thing that's like not really written anywhere, but another thing that can
affect how difficult a trail is, is realistically how many people are on the trail.
Like are you constantly needing to pull over to allow people to go, you know, are you walking
(40:15):
towards people that are passing you in the opposite direction and are you stopping and
going and stopping and going and stopping and going to let them pass?
Hopefully there's a little bit of trade off both ways, but like the more popular the trail
is that adds difficulty.
That is, it's hard to quantify.
Like when they're raiding these trails, it's hard to quantify the population as adding to
(40:40):
the difficulty of the trail, but it really is.
Yeah, well, I mean, they're raiding it, my assumption anyway, I've never raided a trail,
but my assumption is they're raiding it as a continuous flow of motion.
I would assume.
So if it's rated moderate, but you're at an uphill and please people, if somebody's going
(41:04):
uphill, you're going downhill, pull over and stop if you're going downhill.
It is a lot easier to get the momentum back going downhill than it is to pick it back
up going uphill.
I think we, did we do our trail etiquette episode already?
We already did trail etiquette.
So I think we covered that in that, but please for all that is holy, stop if you're going
(41:27):
downhill, let the uphill people keep going past unless they're adamant that you take
over because they want to break.
But anyway, now I lost my train of thought.
Okay, if you lost your train of thought, the only thing that I wanted to add in there,
so those are your main four, there is like a super easy rating and there is stuff technically
(41:52):
above very difficult, but like those four that we touched on are your main ones that
you will mostly see if they use that rating system.
What is the thing with any of those ratings?
Somebody made them up.
Somebody made up what is considered easy, what is considered moderate, what is considered
(42:15):
difficult.
That is true.
And we've said it before, like your difficult might not be the same as my difficult, but
like whoever made up this stuff and whoever labeled these might be different than what
yours is.
So yeah, these trails are rated a certain way, but like take it with a grain of salt.
Take a look at the route.
Is there a spot that's rated easy, but there's a lot of switchbacks in it?
(42:38):
Well, it might be more difficult than a normal easy trail would be.
So it's not foolproof, take it as like gospel method of rating trails.
Yeah, well, I mean that comes back into the do your own research and everything.
(42:59):
We've talked in the past of some apps that we use, like my footpath app where I can plan
it out and then I can virtually walk along it and see the elevation gain and all that
stuff.
I can't see the actual trail.
I can't see the tree roots, all that stuff, but I can get an idea for the elevation gain,
(43:22):
which is usually in my opinion, the thing to look out for.
So I can handle sand, prefer not to, but it just gives you that idea of like, okay, we're
going to have a steep incline.
And then usually it's pretty accurate, like a hundred yards in or like two miles into
(43:43):
this hike, we're going to have a very steep incline for about a hundred yards, gets you
mentally prepared for it, like all that kind of stuff to prep ahead of time.
There are apps that are mostly user input, like all trails that where you go, you can
(44:04):
look at them and they're great resources.
They have a lot of input on a lot of trails, but again, they are a lot of user inputs.
So if Josh Mo was on the trail three weeks ago and said, this is a very easy hike.
I did this in about an hour, blah, blah, blah.
My dogs loved it.
And then next thing you know, you get out there and you're like, okay, this is a lot
(44:27):
of bullshit.
It's overgrown, ferns are everywhere.
I got 20 ticks.
So you might not have the same experience because your idea of easy is different.
So that is exactly the pin that I wanted to circle back to.
So we're talking about like, all these communities out there that are willing to give you their
(44:49):
input and all that sort of stuff and all these apps.
And I don't mean to pick on all trails, but all trails is one of the really popular ones.
All trails is great for a lot of things.
I use it when we're doing research on the different areas that we want to go.
I look up all trails.
How long is this in real GPS data?
Where are people saying about it?
(45:11):
I use it.
Anytime it is community input based, take it with an extra grain of salt because absolutely
these people.
What do you mean these people?
(45:31):
I don't know.
I mean, some of these people, what they consider easy is like the hardest trail I've ever walked
on.
You know what I'm saying?
It doesn't tell you the whole story.
It is a great resource.
We've run into people that have done the entire picture rocks in one day.
Exactly 42 miles in one day.
(45:52):
I ain't doing 42 miles in one day.
The one guy, he had like a camel back on and that was it because he was doing end to end
in less than 24 hours and wasn't stopping.
He had candy bars and water.
That was it.
The man was insane.
Good for him.
Hope he's great.
Yeah, good for him.
I don't know what a guy like that would rate what was essentially a trail so difficult
(46:16):
that you and I ended our trip early because I was huffing and puffing so bad.
You know what I'm saying?
While these apps and communities are great and people are wonderful at giving feedback
and thank you so much if any of the listeners are people that contribute to that sort of
stuff, it is all very helpful.
Well, and a caveat to that that I'll add is that I do the research on the all trails and
(46:42):
all that stuff, but then I go into the Facebook communities or the Instagrams or whatever.
I'm aging myself with Facebook, but I'll go into the message boards or whatever and just
ask how is this trail, all that kind of stuff, mind you, this is my experience level or if
they say it's the easiest trail ever or whatever, just be like, mind you, I'm brand new or whatever.
(47:05):
How difficult is it if you're brand new?
You can get a little bit of a back and forth if you go onto an actual social media app
rather than just an app where people like a Yelp review for trails type of a deal.
I don't think, I mean for you and I, I know how you and I do our research and how we meticulously
(47:30):
try to plan for every scenario that we hike into, which I think is a little bit excessive
realistically for what we do, but we take all of that, your apps and your communities
and all that, and then on top of that, we still download a topographical map of the
area and look at this is what the topography, man, I cannot say that word, topography of
(47:59):
the area looks like and according to this map, even though everybody says it's easy
or moderate, according to this, we're going straight up a hill in this section.
Maybe for the average of the 10 miles, maybe it's considered moderate, but this section
right here where we're going to be nine miles in, this section right here is going to be
(48:25):
really hard it looks like.
Even though they say it's easy or moderate, it looks like this is going to be really hard.
So ratings are ratings and use them as a guideline, but I wouldn't swear by that as a single
source type of thing.
Well, it's like your favorite restaurant, somebody rated it a one star and you give
(48:47):
it a five star.
So it's all preference and all experience level too.
So take it with a grain of salt, do your own research.
I did decide something just now and I hope I remember to do it the next time we record
is that I'm going to have a challenge for you to say the word topographical or topography.
(49:12):
I can't say that word.
I don't know what it is.
I struggle with that one.
I know how it's spelled and I know how it should be pronounced, but I just can't get
it to come out of my mouth.
We'll quiz you until you can get it.
The other thing that I want to mention is like ratings might be regional too.
(49:32):
Like easy in the Midwest might not be the same as easy in the Rocky Mountains or the
Grand Canyon or the Grand Canyon or whatever.
You might have what I would consider a difficult trail and it might be rated easy in this park
because maybe it is the easiest trail in this park.
(49:55):
That doesn't mean that it's quote unquote easy with what you're used to being an easy
trail.
You know, so regional, there might be regional variations, I guess is what I'm trying to
say.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It could be relative to that trail system.
Yeah.
For sure.
(50:17):
So I think I have exhausted all of my notes on this one.
Okay.
So have I?
Okay, good.
All right.
Well, perfect.
So that's like, we got, seems like a good one.
So if anybody has any questions, comments or concerns about anything that we have said
over the course of this podcast, you disagree with our assessments of all trails or you
(50:42):
have an app that you swear by because it's always accurate for you or any of the things.
You can always reach us on our email, which is shawnmikehike at gmail.com on all the major
socials at shawnmikehike or directly on our website, shawnmikehike.com.
I will make sure to put images of what the different rating systems are on our website
(51:04):
under this episode.
So if you want to take a look at what those are and you don't know what to search for
on Google, just visit our website, I'll make sure that I post a picture of those on this
episode.
Speaking of episodes, please rate, review and subscribe anywhere that you're listening
to this episode.
It certainly helps get the word out about the podcast and until next time, Mike, go
(51:24):
take a hike.
Yeah, go take a difficult hike, huh?
Yeah, thanks.
We'll see you guys in a couple of weeks.
See you.
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