Rachel Wall’s Story: Losing Her Husband Mike to Suicide After Years of Chronic Pain

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Krista Gregg, your host for she Diaries, a
podcast sharing the real,unfiltered stories of women
who've lost their husbands tosuicide.
It's raw, it's honest and it'sabout finding your way through
the unthinkable.
Before we get to the show,please know this podcast
includes real stories of suicideloss and is not for little ears

(00:25):
.
Some episodes may reference themethod of suicide and include
emotionally intense oruncomfortable descriptions.
We understand how sensitivethis content is and carefully
edit each episode to honor andrespect both our guests and
listeners.
If you or someone you love isstruggling, call or text 988 or

(00:47):
visit 988lifelineorg.
You're not alone.
Please take care whilelistening, pause if you need to,
and you can find links toadditional mental health
resources in our show notes.
Thank you for listening.
Welcome back to she Diaries.
I am your host, krista Gregg,and I am thrilled to introduce

(01:07):
you to Rachel Wall.
Rachel first reached out to meon Instagram to share her story
and I am so grateful she did.
In this conversation she opensup about her husband, mike,
their life together, the joy ofraising three young children
under two years old and the painof losing him to suicide just

(01:27):
over a year ago.
Rachel's story also highlightsan important but often
overlooked topic the impact ofchronic pain on mental health.
Through her honesty, she givesus a window into the
complexities of grief and thereality of parenting really
young children throughbereavement and the courage it
takes to keep moving forward inthe aftermath of loss.

(01:51):
This is she Diaries.
Fingers crossing out on my wayso glad you're here for another

(02:21):
episode of she Diaries.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Today's story is with RachelWall and we are so excited to
have you, Rachel.
She has an incredible storyabout her husband, mike, and
their beautiful lives togetherand then what happened just over
a year ago.

(02:41):
And, rachel, I'm so excited forpeople to hear your story
because it's also one similar toa previous episode with
Charlotte Maya talking a littlebit, too, about chronic pain and
how that does impact people andit's not often talked about
when it comes to suicide, lossand depression and making sure
people are OK.
So we will dive into thateverybody in probably midway

(03:06):
through the episode.
But first I would love forRachel to introduce herself and
give us a little bit ofinformation on where she is now
in her life.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Thank you, I'm so excited to be here and I just I
know I've only spent a hotsecond with you, but I'm so
excited for what you're doingand all the things you've done
light up to this moment too.
My name is Rachel.
I have three children with myhusband.
Our oldest now is just about toturn four, our middle is two

(03:34):
and a half and our youngest justturned two, so we've got three
toddlers.
We are currently spending thesummer here in Oregon.
We just sold our house andwe're about to move to Arizona.
So that's fun and new.
And I just enrolled back inschool for the first time at 33.
So we're just kind of all overthe place right now and just

(03:56):
doing whatever.
Yeah, I'm originally fromOregon, my husband was
originally from Utah and I'vebeen here almost my whole life.
Yeah, that's kind of where wefound ourselves in the last year
.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
Let's start from the beginning.
How did you and Mike meet andtell me a little bit about the
LDS Church and your experienceof exploring a whole new
religion, meeting Him and howthat shaped a little bit of your
future.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Sure.
So I was not raised a MormonLDS I was.
I was always raised with withGod, but I we didn't really do a
lot of like consistent church.
And so at about 25, 20, yeah,25.
I was introduced to the churchand just became interested and I

(04:48):
was kind of, I said at the time, in the market for a new faith.
So anyway, I ended up readingthe Book of Mormon.
I ended up going to church forthe first time, totally prepared
to tell the missionaries that Idid not want to meet them, get
baptized, yet anything.
Of course they're saying sweet.
So I did say yes, and then theyasked me to get baptized and I
said okay, and I'm a peoplepleaser, but it really was.

(05:13):
It really was somewhere Ireally loved to be.
I lived a very different lifethan that before.
So I always say like I camefrom the real world, but it was
just a very comfortable place.
I really loved the people in myward, I loved the community and
I loved the church and so I wasbaptized.
I was 26, I believe.

(05:35):
Then that missionary whobaptized me went home and I
didn't know how quickly theymoved.
I just kind of thought theywere in one place for two years.
But if you don't know themissionaries, usually every six
weeks they'll get a transfer andthey'll either stay in the
place they're in or they'll goto a different area locally to
like the kind of city area thatthey're in, and so that

(05:56):
missionary was actuallyfinishing his mission.
So he went home and he I hadbecome really close with those
two missionaries and the otherone stayed, but the one that was
replacing the one who left.
He said, oh my gosh, you'regoing to love my replacement.
And I was kind of like OK, andhe said no, he's been here
before, which is very rare, anda missionary will come back to

(06:18):
an area that they've alreadyserved in.
And so he said everybody loveshim, he'll be great.
And I was thinking like okay,whatever, and that was Elder
Wall.
And so he I met him three daysafter I got baptized, and right
after you get baptized you alsotake the basically take the
lessons again as follow-up.
And so he was my follow-upmissionary and he ended up.

(06:40):
He had two more transfers leftbefore he actually finished his
mission and went home, and so hewas there for three months and
we got very close.
We were just great friends andthat's how I saw him as a friend
.
He would come to my parents'house for dinners and him and
Chris the other missionary, wejust were very, we talked a lot

(07:00):
and they were really goodmissionaries.
They were very personable, veryfun.
So when he left to go back toSouthern Utah where he lived and
kind of start his adult lifenow, after his mission he was a.
He was an older missionary.
He went out at uh at 20 insteadof 18.
So he was 22 when he finishedhis mission.

(07:24):
When I met him, most men go outat 18.
So by the time they're donethey're 20.
But he was a little bit older.
He had gone to welding schoolbeforehand before he decided to
go on a mission.
So, yeah, he went home and wecontinued to talk.
And the last time I saw himbefore he went home was at a

(07:46):
friend of ours house for dinner.
I was leaving to go to mybrother's birthday and I
remember giving him a hug.
Uh, you're not really supposedto hug with missionaries.
So next on missionaries.
But I just remember giving hima hug and thinking I'm never
going to see him again and thiswas really sad and I got kind of
teary and I think I realizedthat I liked him more than I
thought and everybody in theward was kind of like nudgy,

(08:07):
like I was like you guys shouldhang out, you know.
But I was like no, he's goingto Utah, I'm never gonna see him
again, probably has agirlfriend, you're ready return?
Missionaries come home and allthe girls are like there and
they date a lot and I had notdated my entire adult life, like
I had been single my entireadult life up until then.
And so he just kind of fell inmy lap and anyway it was the

(08:32):
other missionary's birthday andI said, hey, do you want to
FaceTime Chris so we can wishhim a happy birthday?
And he was like yeah, and afterwe did that he kind of texted
and was like we should do thatmore often.
And I was like yeah, we should.
And ever since then weFaceTimed every night and we
ended up dating long distancefor about a year.
About six months after that westarted officially dating.

(08:56):
Before that we would kind of flyin and out.
I would either go there, hewould come here, we'd meet
somewhere else every month or soand we'd have like these little
fun trips and see, see eachother for the weekend, or he'd
come and work for my brother fora week or two, um, because my
brother owns a weldingfabrication like steel erection
business and uh, yeah, we didthat for about a year and met

(09:18):
his parents and then he decidedto move out to Oregon and he
left he here for two years, sohe really liked it and it was
very different than SouthernUtah where he is from, climate
wise, yeah.
And so he moved out in 2020,the very beginning of February,
and I told him okay, february isreally slow.

(09:39):
You know, all of the mills whocontract with us, they usually
spend all their money by the endof the year.
So January they're getting thework done, done, but January
they don't spend a lot of money.
So, you know, february'stypically very slow, but March
will be very busy.
March of 2020 was not busy atall because everything shut down
, the mill shut down everything.
Yes, covid, yes, we had plannedhe, we had gotten engaged like

(10:03):
the week after he got back and,uh, we had planned to get
married that august, uh, down inutah and do a whole thing, and
we decided to just move it upbecause of everything.
We had a super small wedding.
It was just our immediatefamilies and the photographer
and the videographer.
So it was like 18 people thereon the property that I grew up

(10:26):
on and it was so perfect.
We had this tiny little wedding.
That was exactly what I alwaysthought we would continental
breakfast.
We got married in the morningand we just played yard games.
Our families met for the firsttime and it was perfect, it
sounded beautiful.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
And for anyone who didn't also pick up on it,
because I love these littlemoments in life where it feels
like these puzzle pieces arejust coming together he delayed
becoming a missionary because hewas going to school for welding
.
And then it turns out yourbrother has an entire business
on welding.
It was crazy For him to alreadyhave the experience and the
knowledge in an industry that is.

(11:04):
You know, you have to go totrade school or you have to grow
up with it somehow to learn it,and he ends up just being this
perfect match for you andimmediately there's a tie to
your family, there's a tie tobusiness, there's a way to make
money, like it just it feelslike everything's falling into
place very naturally, without Iknow, like the universe is
coming together.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
Oh, totally.
You know, I know it seems silly.
Everyone's like, oh, of coursethat wouldn't happen.
But I really did.
I had had such low luck in love, like I wanted to be a mom and
a wife so bad, but I just, Ijust couldn't.
I couldn't find anybody thatwanted to actually have a
relationship with me.
And I really, even though I wasonly in my mid twenties, like I

(11:45):
thought I was very careeroriented at the time and I just
thought, you know what, maybethis is just what I meant to be,
maybe I'm just a more of agirl's girl and I'm going to
leave these women in my careerand maybe I just don't ever get
married and have kids.
You know, I mean it seems sillylooking back, like that's still
young again.
I had never had a realrelationship and I was very, it

(12:06):
just kind of became who I waslike okay, well, I guess I'm the
single girl, you know.
And then my quite literallyfell into my lap, like you know.
I literally fell into my like Ihave a picture of the first day
we met because he was justsupposed to be our buddy, you
know.
And and I even remember tellingmy dad how do I even tell my
parents.
I have a boyfriend.
I've never done this before andI remember telling my dad like

(12:27):
I think I tricked somebody intoliking me, and my dad's like,
well, you don't have to trickanybody, and I told him who and
he was like the missionary and Iwas like, yeah, but my family
already loved him, you know, andyeah, it really was perfect.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
That's so awesome.
And you guys?
So you get married.
It's COVID.
Work has slowed down.
What happens next?

Speaker 2 (12:47):
So eventually the mills reopened.
My husband actually worked atCostco during the pandemic, so
like for the first couple months, for about four months,
everything picked back up and hestarted working again.
You know, we got married, wegot pregnant right after.
That pregnancy was veryinteresting.
It lasted 15 weeks but our babydid not grow past six and a
half weeks size.
So that was a very like, let'swait and see what happens.

(13:09):
Let's wait and see what happens.
And it was just kind of a slowprogress to eventual termination
of that pregnancy slashmiscarriage.
It was kind of both we made thedecision to finally terminate
it and and then right beforethat appointment it had, our
baby had miscarried.
So that was kind of a bigbummer.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
Absolutely.
How did you guys emotionallysupport each other through that?
I mean, you just got married.
You've known each other for along time, but that's a big deal
for any marriage.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, it was so hard and I just remember thinking I'm
so glad I had Mike through thatprocess Because, yeah, up until
that point in my life, that wasthe biggest loss that I had
gone through.
You know, I had lost mygrandparents, but I was pretty
young, I was in middle schoolwhen they, you know, passed and

(14:00):
they were older and I had neverlost anything that close to me
friends, siblings, anything likethat and so that was the
closest thing.
I thought that would have beenthe worst thing in my life, and
up until that point it was, andit was so, especially for how
gradual and slow it was, to kindof like oh well, maybe there's
hope, oh, maybe not.
Maybe we'll try again in a weekand have another ultrasound and

(14:23):
maybe things will change.
Oh, no, they don't.
And it was just kind of likethis eventual, we are closing on
our house.
There was the pandemic, therewas working, like it was just a
lot at once.
And I just remember thinkingI'm so glad at least I have a
partner who is so patient and sokind and so supportive and so
many friends and family who wereas well, so supportive, and so

(14:46):
many friends and family who wereas well.
I never thought I would be in aposition to terminate a
pregnancy, especially for a babywho was so wanted.
But, you know, I became veryfocused on getting pregnant
after that.
I became very like hyperfocused on learning as much as I
could about other people whohad had miscarriages.
Like, I was Googling thepodcasts, I was looking at the
you know Facebook groups and Ibecame fixated on that because

(15:09):
it was just, it's in your mindall the time, that kind of loss,
and so, uh, I was nervous thatit would happen again, of course
, and so when we did getpregnant again toward the end of
that year, uh, that pregnancyended in October and then we got
pregnant again.
I ovulated on Christmas day.
We had gone to southern Utah tosee my husband's family and I

(15:32):
was ovulating in that day whenwe were flying and I was like,
oh, it's not gonna work, we'regonna miss it again, and I'm
like in the Vegas airportbathroom taking ovulation tests,
like, like, um.
So anyway, we got pregnant withour daughter.
We didn't know it was ourdaughter at the time.
We we waited to find out withboth of our, uh, the children I
was pregnant with, uh, untilthey were born, to find out, uh,

(15:54):
what they were.
And that pregnancy was really,you know, stressful, stressful
for me, um, although I loved it,it was kind of like, okay, like
waiting for the other shoe todrop.
Um, although I loved it, it waskind of like, okay, like
waiting for the other shoe todrop, but it was great.
We had our daughter inSeptember, um, and it was girl
and, and she was breached, so wehad a c-section for her and, uh

(16:16):
, then we actually decided thatwe wanted to get life insurance
a couple months after she wasborn.
Um, so we went through that, uh, we to get life insurance a
couple months after she was born.
So we went through that, we gotlife insurance on both of us
and we even joked that we can't,you know, take our life or
skydive for two years.

(16:37):
And it was kind of like a joke,like, okay, well, you know,
can't be doing that, and whichis funny.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
Now, looking back, I think it just shows how hopeful
you guys are too, though, forthe future and also building
something together.
Like any couple, you know youhave a baby.
You want to create a securelifestyle.
You want to create a secureenvironment for your child to
grow up in.
I mean, this is not an unusualconversation to have, and then
you guys are looking into thefuture of having more kids as

(17:05):
well.
So this is this is future state.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yes, and we were very proactive.
My husband, because of his headinjury, which I'll explain, he
didn't really think about a lotof details of things, but I am
very task motivated and so forme I was like we got to do this.
We have a house, we have achild.
Now we have potentially 18years of raising this child.

(17:29):
Like, how do you do that, youknow, without having?
So.
It wasn't actually Mike's idea,which some people get confused
about, that he wanted to getlife insurance because perhaps
he was thinking about ending hislife at that point.
I don't know, I don't know ifhe was at that point, I know, in
the years to come.
We had a couple ofconversations about it and it
was never, you know, an optionwhich makes it very sudden and,

(17:53):
you know, out of nowhere.
But yeah, I was very proactiveabout, like, if something
happens to us, like we need tomake sure that we have stuff in
place, like we need to make surethat we have stuff in place so
we, you know, keep living on.
You know, through our lives, weget pregnant again when Sienna
turns one, because I reallywanted to go back to the birth
center and they wanted at least,preferably a year in between

(18:17):
pregnancies.
So Sienna turned one, we gotpregnant that month and we made
it all the way until I was about25 weeks pregnant and then, and
everything was fine with thebaby.
But we got this letter from DHSabout this little baby and a
cousin of mine has had a couplechildren and she's, you know,

(18:39):
has a really rough life andthose children had been adopted
out and she had had another babyand so we it was like the day
before my birthday we got thatletter and so on my birthday we
were planning on going out todinner and my mom was going to
watch Sienna, and so we sat atRed Robin and said are we going
to take this baby?
You know that they're asking ifanybody can, short term, long

(19:02):
term, whatever take this child,family preferably.
And that was the only time I sawMike cry.
He said he.
Every time he thought about it,he felt the spirit so strong
that it was we needed to do it.
And I, mike, was just like that, like anything that didn't even
directly affect him, and a lotof the drama in our, in our

(19:24):
marriage, you know, was causedby me or maybe my side of the
family or whatever.
And he, just like it was just ano brainer for him, like, yeah,
of course we're going to dothat.
He was such a um, he was such akind, thoughtful, others
focused person his whole lifeand that's why I felt so lucky
that I tricked him into likingme.

(19:45):
That's how I felt, like you areso much better than me, you
know a good person.
Like I try and do everything Ican for other people too.
But when people say, oh my gosh, no, you know, and they
compliment me, I always thinkyou should have known Mike,
because he just was the bestperson I've ever known.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
So he said right and to in.
In a previous conversation wehad you described him and I
think this was so the way thatyou described him.
I think it matters and it'simportant too, because you were,
you were describing how he wasaround your brother and all of
the welders, and it can be a bitof a rough crowd is what is
what you said?
In the industry can be a littlebit, you know, hard knocks.

(20:25):
And he just came and you saidhe, he never preached religion
but he treated everyone like.
He like with the values ofJesus.
In a sense of it was thekindness, compassion.
He never swore, even thoughthey always try to get them to
like I'm just imagining theculture, but everybody ended up
just falling in love with himand his personality and his

(20:47):
kindness and his generosity andthat was true to form of what
you were saying.
It's just that was him.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
That was Mike, absolutely, and and and that's
the kind of I love, I lovereligion and I hate religion in
certain aspects.
Like, I think that a lot ofthings, um, you know, whatever
it can be a rocky road, um, inhow people model that, and I
think I personally, in mypersonal opinion, I think Mike
did it right.
I he would talk with peopleabout Jesus If the conversation

(21:17):
went that way.
You know, he was always open toit, um, and sometimes he would
take that, you know, step andkind of bring it up, but
oftentimes he just reallybrought Jesus to people without
words, like he just was hishands and with that crowd.
Oftentimes that's the best wayto do.
It is to just be that forpeople instead of trying to get

(21:40):
them to come to church or talkabout Jesus or whatever.
It's just to be that example.
And he was so good at that and,yeah, everybody just loved him
for that.
You know, I think they didn'texpect to.
You know, really, really,really like a guy like Mike in
that field you know he wasalmost the guy that was would
have been super easy to justlike make fun of and kind of
like, oh, that dude, you know,you know play pranks on that

(22:03):
kind of thing, but you justcouldn't help but love him and,
um, so we get this, we get thisladder.
We decided to take this baby.
Um, we ended up getting herright at three months old.
Uh, and I was 30 weeks pregnantwith Calvin.
Um, our our second child.
And uh, so we really went fromSienna was 18 months old at the

(22:24):
time so we really went from oneto really three children.
We only had the two for about amonth and a half or so.
Calvin came a couple of weeksearly and that was an incredible
.
I'm so glad that I got to sharethat with Mike.
I asked him about it a littlewhile later.
I was like, how was that birthfor you?
Because it was very differentthan Sienna's, but I really

(22:46):
wanted him to be able to.
We had him in the birth center,unmedicated.
I wanted Mike to catch the baby.
I wanted Mike to tell me if itwas a boy or a girl.
Like I really wanted himinvolved in that.
Like we didn't necessarily getthe first time and I'm so glad,
but he was like that was intense, like that was crazy.
But he was right there, youknow he.

(23:06):
He caught him coming out and heput him on me and said it's a
boy, and I knew that, uh, I justfelt that, and so it was very
special and I think even morespecial that it was his son.
Uh, not knowing what wouldhappen later, but it was just a
moment.
So we have our second baby, wehave this other little newborn
baby and then we have ourtoddler.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
You have in.
Two under two is hard, threeunder two what was that like for
you guys?
I knew you ended up deciding tobe stay at home, mom, which I
applaud you for, becauseabsolute chaos yeah it really
was.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
We didn't really sit still.
So it was get married, getpregnant, get pregnant again,
get pregnant again.
You know, buy a house, thewhole thing, and then take this
other baby and now we have thethree babies.
And yeah, three under two.
It's too many.
By the way, If you can help it,it's a little bit too many
toddlers at once.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
But I'm so glad that we have her.
And then you guys also decidefuture state.
Looking forward to.
What you want your lives tolook like with this beautiful
family is have some land, butyou need to save that money for
it first.
So you have all these babies,you are now a stay at home mom
and you guys decided to switchup life in a way as well with
living.
What does that look like?

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah, so we we got our house ready to rent.
We, we got it rented and thenwe moved out into a fifth wheel
on my parents' property and sowe downsized and it was great.
Actually, everyone thought, ohmy gosh, three toddlers and a
fifth feel like what are youdoing?

(24:46):
But to be honest, it was almosteasier than cleaning a four
bedroom house with toddlers.
Like you don't have anything,so your cleanup takes 10 minutes
at the end of the day andyou're done.
You know so.
You spend all your time outside, you know so.
It was really nice.
And our two big goals that yearwere number one get Mike's mom

(25:08):
to come out more often.
It really bothered me that hehad left everything basically
for me and our family so that Icould be close to my family, and
I said I really want to getyour mom out here at least every
other month, maybe a weekendevery month, you know so that
was a goal.
And our other goal was to focuson his headaches.

(25:30):
When Mike was 16, he was in ahead-on collision and it left
him with a very big TBI and thelasting effects of that were
that he had these chronicheadaches and migraines every
day.
He just always had one.

(25:51):
Some days they were worse thanothers, but it was always there
and nothing could ever be doneabout them.
He would see doctors andnothing could ever be done.
And oh my gosh, this is justgoing to kind of be your life
forever.
And he was such a good person.
He even kind of was gratefulfor that because he said it

(26:11):
really made him nicer, made himmore empathetic, like he really
was so amazing to see thegratefulness in his accident,
even though he just dealt withthis chronic head pain all the
time and he never talked aboutit.

(26:31):
You could never like look at it, you know, or or see it,
because he just he just livedthrough it and he had kind of
come to terms with the fact thatlike this was his cross to bear
and like it was going to befine and he could still live
this meaningful life through it.
And so I knew that when I methim.
And when it's something that isyour daily life, it's easy to

(26:55):
just become used to that.
And it takes so long in Americato be seen and be have a
referral and then you finallyget to a doctor and the doctor
says there's nothing we can do.
So you have to start over andyou have to make sure they're in
network and you have to paythese co-pays and you have to
take off work to get there.
And you know you're trying toraise a family and you're trying
to provide and it's just, ittakes so long to finally get to

(27:20):
somebody who can help and then,when you finally get to somebody
who can help, to be told thatthere's nothing that can be done
.
I think I almost think he didit for me, you know, because I
was so invested in it, becausehe was expecting it.
You know he was expecting thatthere's nothing that's going to
be done about this, and but wehad these ideas.
You know, maybe we'll get anose job.

(27:41):
Nose jobs have been, you know,proven to help with some
migraine issues.
Maybe we'll do Botox, maybewe'll do, you know, all these
other little things that we hadthese ideas on.
And so that was going to be theyear for it.
This was last year, 2024.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Well, and you guys finally found a provider who was
willing to.
Ok, you know what?
Let's get updated records,let's get a new MRI, let's take
it to the next level.
And what is so heartbreaking tome too and this is a constant
theme right now in news andmedia, and it's something that a

(28:15):
lot of people experience isinsurance denies it, like as if
they know better or they don'tlike.
They basically said Mikedoesn't need it and it's not
their call.
They're supposed to support youand financially make sure that
this is possible for his healthand well-being, but it was Denae
.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
You would think that a company that you're paying
thousands of dollars to wouldsay would trust a doctor.
You know it wasn't us that saidinsurance company, can we
please have this for free?
It and I was a doctor sayingthis is my patient, I've seen my
patient, he needs this MRI, andit just, yeah, it provides very
little faith in the insurancecompanies that even a doctor,

(28:53):
even a professional, can say I'mrequesting this, and this group
of nameless, faceless doctorscan say I don't think that's
really important.
And so they sent a letter backabout the MRI, denying the MRI,
saying that they didn't believethat Mike had basically, non, a
non-functioning brain and whatis his reaction at this point?

Speaker 1 (29:13):
because he's already, he's his new was expecting that
.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
Yeah, and we were standing in our trailer and he
opened it up and he said oh, youknow, the insurance denied the
MRI and I I was the one thatwould get fired up about this
and he I just stopped and lookedat him and I don't even think I
had an emotion, because I wasso incredibly angry that I just
said, okay, don't worry about it, you're going to get the MRI.

(29:38):
I don't care if you pay $5,000for it, you're going to get it.
Don't worry, we're going tohave dinner tonight.
Everything will be fine, we'llschedule it one way or another,
I don't care if the insurancepays for it.
Like that's where I was at,because we had finally come to
this conclusion.
We're, you know, dropping ourbills by moving out.
Yes, we're saving for property,but we're also saving to have
money to get him new scans, dothis stuff, you know, which is

(30:00):
going to cost thousands ofdollars, but it was, we did it
for that, you know, and lookingback it seems silly, but I
really believed that we werefinally to less stress, less
chaos, less everything.
It was just going to be simple.
We were going to get the helpthat Mike needs.
We were going to save for ourproperty to live simpler.

(30:23):
You know we were going to.
We had done all the things.
So we had gone through all thechaos, everything was closed,
everything was done.
Our new life was going to bechill, which spoiler alert, uh
did not last long.
So, yeah, we're, we're ready,we're ready to go.
We had just gotten a referralfrom that same doctor to organ

(30:44):
neurology, which was very highlyspoken of, and we were waiting
to fill out that paperwork.
We kept on saying we got to doit tonight, we got to do it
tonight, and so one night I'm upthere prepping.
I was doing like some littlecottage bakery type stuff.
I was prepping like cookies andbread.
And I said, mike, before we goto bed, please fill out that

(31:06):
organ neurology paperwork.
And he was like oh, yeah, okay,so he's filling that out.
Sienna's up there, she's kindof cranky.
I really don't remember muchabout that night, other than I
just said I can stop right here,let's just go to bed.
Sienna's getting you know upset, we'll just let's just go.
So Mike filled the paperworkout.
I stopped what I was doing.

(31:26):
We go to bed the next morning.
I wake up.
Mike was working about 45minutes away.
So he usually woke up early,early, like 4.
Yeah, I wake up, get the babiesup.
We had a little like parentingappointment.
We.
We went outside, we kind ofplayed with the dog, played with
my dad a little bit.

(31:47):
We have this normal day and thebabies go down for a nap and I
don't know what I did.
I just kind of, I guess didwhatever cleaned up of, I guess
did whatever cleaned up, andMike and I shared location and
that was just easier for me.
With him working in the tradethat he was, that I could see is
he still job side, is he not?
Then I don't have to call himand say, hey, are you off or not

(32:09):
, cause there are varying worktimes, you know, on jobs like
that.
So we always had our locationjust to make it easier for us.
I hadn't even looked at it allday, I hadn't texted him all day
, which was rare, but it wasjust a busy day.
You know, we were just doingstuff.
So after nap time, after I'dkind of done whatever I was
going to do during their naptime, sienna actually took a nap

(32:30):
too.
She was in the middle ofdropping a nap.
So all three of them wereasleep and Mike was supposed to
be.
It was going to be a quicktrade-off.
I had a filling appointment atthe dentist and so it was
basically going to be by thetime he got home.
I was basically going to be inthe car leaving like trade-off
switch.
So it was about 2.45 and I waslike, oh, he's probably about,

(32:50):
you know, usually got off around2.30.
So I said I'll call and makesure he's on his way home.
Nothing's going to make me, youknow, leave for this
appointment, you know, orwhatever, and I'll make sure
it's all good.
So I pull up my phone and itsays the name of our town and I
thought, oh my gosh, maybe hegot off early.
He would do that sometimes sothat I didn't have to sit there
and wait the 45 minutes until hegot home.
I would say, you know, oh mygosh, he's almost here.

(33:13):
You know, oh, yay, it kind ofcut out some of that like
waiting time, and so he would dothat.
It's just surprised mesometimes.
And I thought, oh my gosh,she's almost here.
But when I looked it had put itpast our house and we live quite
a ways out of town at the timeand there's really nothing past
our house and so immediately Ithought I wonder if his phone
got stolen.
You know, cause, cause,sometimes people out in the

(33:35):
boonies, you know, that's kindof what happens sometimes.
And I called him and he didn'tanswer and I thought, no, like I
wonder if he hasn't had hisphone all day.
And I called him back again andhe answered and he was very
stressed.
He seemed very stressed, heseemed like he was having a hard

(33:58):
time finding words and Isuddenly got confused.
I said, hey, what's up?
Where are you at, you know?
And?
And he couldn't really say.
And I said are you, you know,out past the house?
And he said yes, and I startedrealizing I was going to be
having to ask him yes or noquestions.
Um, and he was just breathingvery heavily on the phone, like

(34:19):
he, like he was trying toregulate himself, like he was
having a panic attack and he hadbeen stressed.
You know, that weekend beforewhen his mom was in town over
the oil in his new truck and hethought maybe he had ran it out
of oil and ruined it.
Anyway, making big deals out ofsmall things.
But we talked about him and heseemed fine, you know.

(34:40):
Okay, yeah, you're right,you're right, it's not a big
deal.
So he's going through this againand I'm thinking what in the
heck is going on?
And when I get into a situationlike that I am not very I don't
know the word for it but I'mnot like, oh my gosh, babe,
what's going on?
Are you okay?
Like I go into, like what'swrong and like how am I going to
fix this?
So I was like trying todownload this information.

(35:02):
He told me he loved me.
He said I'm just, I'm so sorry.
I love you and it really hauntsme that I didn't say it back,
because I was so confused why hewas saying these things on the
phone.
I thought maybe he was in danger, maybe, you know, somebody was
up there and I don't know.
I had no idea.
He just kept on saying I justfeel so sick.

(35:25):
Still, he had been sick acouple of days before and I was
just kind of like okay, likenothing was making sense.
I said are you, you know, upthere?
He said yes.
I said have you been up thereall day?
And he said yes, and I thought,okay, well, he must just be
spinning out and stressed out,took a day off, but he didn't
call in.
So now he's probably feelingguilty that.

(35:46):
You know my brother's the bossof the company.
You know, maybe he feels weirdabout that.
He took this day off, he didn'tcall and so I just thought,
okay, it's okay, it's okay, I'lljust come out there and see
what's up.
And he kept on telling me notto come out there.
And again, all of these signspoint to something is not okay
and as you say them out loud,you think what does that mean?

(36:08):
You know, obviously, but myhead it was.
So it wasn't even a thoughtLike that, wasn't even a thought
that my husband would beconsidering suicide.
I thought he must be in danger,somebody must have him at
gunpoint or somebody must havehim kidnapped, or you know, I
that was where I went with it,because I kept saying I'll just

(36:29):
be there, you know, in a minutewe can talk.
And he kept on saying no, youknow, don't come out here.
And I was like well, you eithercome here or I'll come there.
And he just kept on sayingsaying no, no, and finally it
was almost kind of annoyingbecause I was just like okay,
what are we going to do here?
Then you know, like I got thatfeeling, yeah, like, what are we
doing?
We just going to keep goingback and forth like this, in the
fall, for 10 minutes.

(36:50):
And so finally I just said, youknow what, I'm going to come
there, just don't move.
And he said don't come out here, just send someone else.
And in my head I'm thinking like, so, so he's, there's something
wrong.
Like somebody must be out therewith him.
Why would he not want him?
And I was like, do I need tobring a weapon?

(37:13):
Like what do you mean?
And I just said, just don'tmove, I'll be there in five
minutes.
You know, I'm I'm on my way.
And then, uh, he didn't sayanything.
I said, babe, you know, babe.
And he hung up.
And so I was like, okay, youknow, I kind of grabbed my stuff
and uh, I called him back onemore time, it kind of picked up,
and then nothing.
And so I was just like, okay,I'm just gonna go.
Luckily, my dad was still there,he was getting ready to go into

(37:33):
town and uh, he was still there, he was outside clipping the
dog's nails and I said, hey, Igotta go find Mike and he goes
find dog's nails.
And I said, hey, I got to gofind Mike and he goes find Mike.
What do you mean?
I said I don't actually know.
He didn't show up for work.
He's been, you know, out pastthe house all day.
I don't know what's going on,but I need to go talk to him.
He was kind of like, okay, youknow, that's weird.

(37:54):
And I was To get in the car andon my way up there I'm just
thinking all of these things,I'm thinking like, and I
remember telling myself over andover as long as he's alive,
it'll be fine, as long as he'salive, it'll be fine.
And even as I said that tomyself on the way up, I thought,
okay, rachel Dural McQueen, youknow like, yeah, he's going to

(38:14):
be fine, right.
But you look back and you'relike, oh, you know premonition
and your, your thoughts, kind ofI don't know, maybe, maybe you
know.
But I didn't believe that, Ididn't actually think and I did
also think I need to ask him ifhe's suicidal.

(38:35):
This is very weird for him tonot call, not go in, be
somewhere all day, you know, byhimself, like this is strange.
So I'm going to make him tellme if he's ever considered
suicide.
You know, it did cross my mind,but I had no idea that you know
it may have already happened,so it sounds like to leading up
to this point.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
he's internalizing a lot and holding a lot in.
Obviously he's had chronic painhis whole life.
He isn't very hopeful in anysolutions here.
Um, the incident with thevehicle lightly mentioned on,
but he was making mountains outof molehills small things that
honestly not a big deal.
Everybody said no big deal,like it's not even your fault,

(39:12):
but he kept internalizing thingsin a way that he wasn't showing
and that wasn't realistic.
Yeah, and it didn't make sense.
So it just it's in in again foranyone who's listening.
He wasn't an alcoholic.
He's not.
You know, a lot of times peopledo substance abuse leading up

(39:35):
to a lot of these moments intheir lives, and he wasn't doing
any of that.
And so I just want to paint thepicture Like I I genuinely
believe it's totallyunderstandable for for you to
not even have that thought andeven when you did have that
thought, to say like, oh my gosh, no, stop, this is Mike we're
talking about.
Like this is exactly.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Yeah, and it's so funny because it's like when you
come to cross I mean, we hadwatched that show a million
little things together and hadthat conversation have you ever
considered, like you know,taking your life?
And he was just like no, youknow, I don't think he was lying
to me when he said that, but Ialso don't think he had this
thought for the first time.
And then it happened like that,wasn't it either?

(40:15):
So I think that's the hardthing with suicide loss is
feeling like there was a littlebit of lying, even though it was
to protect you.
You know he didn't want anybodyto worry about him, but it is.
It does feel that I can see howpeople feel that betrayal of
like what did you not tell me?
You know, like I'm your wifeand you didn't tell me these

(40:36):
things?
You know it's easy to go there,even with someone like Mike,
like how could you not have toldme this?

Speaker 1 (40:42):
So you're going up the mountain and it's about 10
minutes away.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Is it where his location is yeah, it's only
three miles away, but it'slogging roads and it turns to
gravel so you cannot go veryfast.
So it's not just three minutes,you don't go.
60.
I was going, probably 20, youknow it's up in these logging
roads.
60.
I was going probably 20, youknow it's up in these logging
roads, and so I keep going, keepgoing.

(41:05):
And I and I had asked him, canI see your truck from the road?
And he had said yes, and so Iget there, I see his truck, I
see him in the truck, and so hewas kind of facing perpendicular
to where I parked.
There was kind of this areawhere people do like fires, they
shoot, you know, shotguns, theydo target practice and stuff,
and so he kind of parked thatway, kind of overlooking this
little area up on the mountainreally pretty view.

(41:30):
So I parked on the road, sowe're parked, you know, at an
angle to each other, and I seehim.
I get out my phone and my keys,because I didn't know how long
it was going to be, that I wasgoing to sit and chat and I walk
up to the car and I felt relief.
I almost just felt like, okay,like we're going to talk this

(41:52):
out.
You know, he's just stressedout.
And I go to open the door and Ikind of almost had my head
cocked, kind of like you.
What's going on, you know?
And when I look, I go to openthe door, the door is locked.
His truck is running.
So I was like, oh he, you know,he must not have it, must have
locked automatically.
And when I look up, I I justkind of immediately my immediate

(42:13):
thought was like what, what didyou do, you know?
And and I, his eyes were closedand so I was like okay, what,
what is going on?
I try and open it a couple moretimes, it's still locked.
And when I looked up the secondtime, I had realized what had
happened and he out loud, justsaid no, no, this is not
happening.
Like no way, pick up my phone.

(42:36):
I call 9-1-1.
I thought I was very cool, calm,collected.
I didn't understand why theycouldn't hear me.
Um, looking back, I was not, Ijust was immediately hysterical.
I couldn't really walk or standvery well, um, and we were so
far out of town that it took umover 20 minutes for them to come

(42:57):
out.
Even you know, lights andsirens as fast as they can
minutes for them to come out.
Even you know lights and sirensas fast as they can.
Um and I, I just remembered themsaying my 911 dispatcher, she
was the best Um.
I remember her asking are yousure he's beyond help?
And that was the first moment Ithought what if he's not?

(43:17):
What if he's still alive, um,but?
And I said no, but I can't getin.
And which is hilarious, becauseI had a window breaker on my
keys and the moment that youneed to use it, you don't
remember it's there, um.
And she said I don't want youto go back and look, you know.
But you know, I just wanted tosee if you knew.
And I I didn't think so, but Ido.

(43:55):
I carry a lot of guilt aboutthat that I wasn't able to
physically get to him becauseyour instinct just tells you to
run away.
And so they get there Multiplesher me sit in the back of her
car and I remember hearing theman because they had me kind of
walk away a little bit.
So by the time they got upthere, I remember them hearing
over the radio they saidsuspected deceased.
And it was both a huge gutpunch to hear that and a big

(44:16):
relief because I thought if theyget there and he's still alive
and I have just spent 20 minutesdoing nothing, I am going to
flip out.
You know, like I will notforgive myself for that.
So yeah, and then started thisafter of your life, in the after

(44:36):
of completely turning upsidedown, and it's so weird.
I think about a lot.
I look at my call log andwithin an hour I was talking to
Mike on the phone and withinless than an hour of that I was
back at my house.
The sheriff said drop me off.
I was a widow, suddenly withthree children.
My kids were still asleep, somy kids went to bed with a

(44:57):
normal life and of course theydidn't know.
But by the time they woke upthey don't have a dad.
And it's just wild how fastyour life can change like that.
Like the dentist's office wascalling me and I feel so bad.
I picked up because I don'twant them to think that I just
left them hanging.
And she was like are you stillcoming?
And I was just like I'm sosorry, babe.
I've been just oh my gosh, I'mso sorry.

(45:22):
Like trauma to me on this.
No, worry about thatappointment, yeah, and it's just
wild to me that that can allhappen within an hour.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
You know world is still spinning, and yours?

Speaker 2 (45:27):
has stopped.
Yeah, and it's just crazy.
And the next weeks, you knowwe're just, you know, viewings
and cremation and funeral inUtah, you celebration of life in
Oregon.
A lot of Just figuring out whatwe're going to do, moving again
, yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
A lot of guests say that it's really a lot of
business first, before you caneven start grieving.
Did you have that experience?

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Yeah, I mean you don't have.
You don't have time to reallyjust even absorb what's
happening and if I'm honest, Idon't think I have.
Like I, it is almost depressingto me in some ways when I think
about it, because I talk withmy therapist about it a lot.
I thought I would in the moment.

(46:14):
I thought in a year from noweverything will be better.
You know, I'll be better suitedto this and I'll have, you know
, maybe gone through the cycle.
You know everybody thinks thestages of grief, this, and I'll
have, you know, maybe gonethrough the cycle.
You know everybody thinks thestages of grief are, you know
the steps you go in, you know,and they don't know that wasn't
even created for people who aregrieving, that was created for
people who are terminally ill,and so you think, okay, in a
year I think I'll be back tonormal, I think I'll have gone

(46:35):
through all the five stages.
If I'm honest, I think I'm stillin denial.
I don't think I and I don'tknow how long that'll take.
It won't surprise me if itnever feels real to me because
it does not feel real to me thatI will never see my husband
again ever, like I don't getthat I can look at him in a box
and it's on my windowsill andI'm like that's not Mike, you

(46:57):
know what I mean.
Like it just feels like he'ssomewhere else, like maybe he's
off on a job for work, or he'sout of town, like it just does
not seem real.
And so, yeah, in the beginningit's like you don't even have
time for that because there's somuch paperwork, there's so many
steps to wrap up someone's life.
Like I go from pictures in myphone of making sourdough to a
picture of a sheriff's businesscard.

(47:18):
Like, and immediately it'sdealing with car insurance,
dealing with death certificates,dealing with, you know, calling
the medical examiner, callingthe funeral home, writing a
check for cremation.
I mean, they, that's theirbusiness.
Like you said, life goes on.
That comes up right away.
They need to be paid.
You know, all these things needto be in place.
Like it doesn't wait for youand I think in some ways that

(47:43):
seems really cruel and in someways it just keeps you living
because it's just the next step.
It's the next step and it bothsucks and keeps you breathing
because you, at least you got tomake that decision, which is
not a fun decision, but thedecisions keep you focused on,
on.
I guess this is what we'redoing today, you know, versus.

(48:05):
And when you're a parent,especially like you, don't your
kids are waking up the nextmorning, you know.
I mean, my kids woke up fromtheir nap expecting to be played
with and expecting to grab asnack, know, and they didn't
know that.
And I will say, my people, likemy church, my friends, my

(48:25):
family, like I, didn't reallyhave to truly parent my kids for
probably two weeks, likeeverybody kind of came in and
helped.
But you know, you do a little.
You have to because, again,they don't know.
You know they don't know whathappened.
And so I think that's one ofthose dual things.
It sucks that you can't justcurl up in a ball and say I'm
not doing this and at the sametime, it's probably a good thing

(48:48):
that you've got to keep movingon, because otherwise that and
and and they say that too, youknow suicide, specifically in
children and spouses, like thatfirst week, is so much higher
because you do, you just want tobe like I don't think I want to
do this, I don't think I wantto live the rest of my life

(49:08):
without this person.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
Yeah, and it becomes an option.
Is what I've been writing itlike in in your mind it's the no
, no, no, we don't evenentertain this idea.
But when someone's so close toyou, does it all of a sudden,
it's oh, that's if it can happenfor them.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yeah, yeah, oh, say that last part again.
Well, I just said yeah,absolutely, like.
Oh well, if it's an option forthem, I guess it's an option for
me, because it would.
It would be just as wild for meto do this as it was for Mike
too, you know, and and I do alsohad.
I had this thought immediately,like as I was on the phone with
everyone, I thought, um, I can'tlet anybody know this is how he

(49:46):
died, because I couldn't.
I couldn't fathom anybody beingangry at him.
And I thought I can't tellanybody that this happened,
because they'll be mad at himand that will kill me.
That will kill me that anybodyis mad at mike now.
Um, because I knew, you know,what he struggled with.
And one other thing I willshare is that the weekend before

(50:10):
he died, um, we had driven pastthe temple they were building a
new temple and in, uh, close towhere we lived and, um, I came
across this article about thisman with ALS and they were high
school sweethearts and he gotALS and I just said, man, can
you imagine just waiting foryour body to give out, like just

(50:31):
waiting to die?
And I have always been very pro, you know, medical assistance
and dying, and I think I and Istill am, and I said that to
Mike.
I said, you know, I know somepeople disagree, but I just
think people should have theoption to end their lives, you
know, when they are, whenthey're in situations like this,
when they're in constant painor they're, you know, have a

(50:52):
terminal illness or whatever,like I think people should have
the opportunity to givethemselves mercy, like that, you
know.
And I thought of that rightafter.
I thought what if I gave Mikepermission?
You know, like I didn't mean itfor him I mean I did, but I
didn't mean it at the timespeaking to him, and I thought

(51:15):
what if he took that as like itwas okay?
And at first I carried a lot ofanxiety about that and as time
passed I thought I'm still gladI sent it to him because even if
he did internalize that andthink maybe I'll be okay if I do
this, you know I am glad thathe knew that I would understand

(51:36):
if he did that, you know.
And so I walked this fine lineof I don't mean to glamorize
Mike's death, I don't mean toencourage people to do this.
It is shattering, it is theworst thing that you go through,
but I do still believe thatpeople sometimes just can't keep
going and, if I can forgive myhusband, there are a million

(51:57):
other people out there like myhusband, and so it's that fine
line of like.
I don't want more people to dothis, but I understand how you
can get to a point where youthink that that's all is going
to help you, and it's reallyhard.
So I have a lot of empathy forpeople who take their lives and
I have a lot of empathy for thepeople left behind too.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Well, and something you had said before, which was
deciding to take your life, isan irrational thought.
So for all of us to try tounderstand it rationally, it's
never going to happen.
Like it's just.
Your brain is in such a stateof irrationality that we can't
problem solve this from arational brain?

Speaker 2 (52:36):
No, it's never going to make sense to you and it
sucks because you're going tothink about it.
You know all day, every day.
Why did this happen?
What could I have fixed?
But the problem is that, yeah,an irrational brain, a brain
that you alive at all costs,that's its main job.
And if your brain is to a pointwhere it's telling you to take

(53:06):
your life, it's no longerworking.
It's almost like suicide is thelast symptom of an unwell brain
, because it will never makesense to somebody whose brain is
still working.
So it's almost kind of likewhat's the point in trying to
understand it?
Because you're never going tounderstand it.
You just have to accept thatthat happens sometimes and you
just have to accept that thatperson had gotten so unwell that

(53:28):
that made sense to them.
But it's never going to makesense to you because you're not
there.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
You're not in that state of mind.
One very sweet moment that youshared with me is on the viewing
that was also on your weddinganniversary, and you
specifically chose flowers in away that was meaningful for you
both.
Tell me about that.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
We always give each other traditional gifts for our
anniversary, and so thetraditional gift for year four
is flowers.
And I didn't actually mean toschedule his viewing on our
anniversary.
I wasn't looking at the date, Ijust said how, about Thursday?
And then she confirmed to me,okay, the 20th, and I thought,

(54:10):
okay, but it did seem fitting.
You know, I was kind of like,okay, well, special day I guess
for another like special day, Idon't know.
I didn't go into his viewing, um, I did not feel like I could.
I didn't want to see him likethat.
I had already seen him, youknow, at the scene and to me
that was even more comfortablethan seeing him in a funeral
setting.
I didn't want to see him in afuneral setting and I also

(54:32):
didn't think that I would beable to leave easily, you know,
physically, walk away from him,and so I didn't go in.
But I had had our friend whomade our wedding bouquet and our
wedding corsages.
I had her remake that, um, andshe she donated it.
She was so sweet and she madehim a little corsage, she pinned
it on him and we put my bouquetin there to be cremated with

(54:55):
him.
Um, she got some pictures ofour wedding rings together, you
know, on his chest, and it wasvery sweet and yeah, and then
later that day I got this tattooon my hand, which also had some
of the picture or some of theflowers from our wedding bouquet
in it, and so it was kind of itwas memorable.

(55:19):
It's just not what you expectto do, of course, on your
anniversary, but, yeah, itworked out good, you know, for
for her to be able to do thatand show up like that, I know
was special for her too thesymbol of that is.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
The symbolism of that is just so, so beautiful.
And hey, how are you, how areyou and the kids doing today?
It's been just over a year.
How has been being a single andthe kids doing today?
It's been just over a year.
How has been being a singleparent?
The kids are still so young.
Do they even understandeverything or are they having

(55:51):
different grief reactions?

Speaker 2 (55:52):
I think it's a hard thing knowing that your kids are
not going to remember their dadat all.
It's hard looking forward topotentially being with somebody
else and that person is going tobe the person they think about
as their dad.
Of course, I'm always going totalk about Mike.
We're always going to talkabout him like he was here.
Sienna still remembers thingsyou know, and she still talks

(56:14):
about him.
They all recognize him andphotos and all of that.
But the babies were so little.
I mean at the time the kidswere two and a half, 16 months
and 12 months.
It was a week after our son'sfirst birthday.
Well, actually the last thingwe really did together as a
family was having a party.
So they are not going toremember anything, you know, and
Sienna probably will end up notremembering anything either,
even though right now she kindof does.

(56:35):
But they're very open becauseI'm very open with them.
You know we talk a lot abouthow I mean Sienna can tell you
right off the bat like Daddylives with Jesus.
Daddy lives in heaven.
He's waving the cards.
Did you know that?
Did you know that?
Daddy's up in the clouds in thesky?
And she talks about that a lot.
I wish I could go up there andI wish I could see him, you know
, and I miss him and it's sosweet speaking.

(57:04):
She, you know, knows that helives in our hearts, you know,
and he died.
But you have to have thesereally blunt conversations with
your kids about death, and sodeath is not something that we
really sidestep around in ourlife, like, whereas maybe before
I would have said you need tolisten to me so that you don't
run in the street because youcould get hurt by a car, I say
you might run into the streetand a car might hit you and you
might die.
And then they're like oh okay,you know what I mean, because

(57:27):
they already know what happenswhen you die.
You don't come back, you know,and so you don't expect you kind
of want to sugarcoat it alittle bit before.
It's so personal to you.
But there is no sugarcoatingthe fact that you know he's
never going to come back, we'renot going to see him again.
He lives in heaven now, youknow.
And so while they still don'tunderstand what that means and
there's no that there's noeternal concept for them they

(57:48):
don't know what they've lost,which is really sad.
I've had to explain.
Sienna did finally ask you know,why did daddy die?
And I just said, you know,daddy was in a car accident.
He hurt his head really bad and, um, you know, he tried to to
live with it and his head wasjust hurt too bad and the

(58:09):
doctors couldn't fix it.
You know, I mean in appropriateage, appropriate terms.
But when they start to ask, youknow our, we talk very openly
about suicide.
I don't whisper the word, youknow.
And so when, when the timecomes that she wants to know,
again in age-appropriate words,like I will say what happened.
I'm not going to lie about thatand my life is going in a very

(58:29):
suicide-heavy trajectory rightnow.
So they are going to know thatthat happens, you know, and
they're going to know that hedid that, but also know why he
did that and the fact that thisisn't just he had a headache and
he died because of thatheadache.
Then it's like, well, what if Ihave a headache?
Or what if my head gets hurt?
Am I going to die, you know?
And so it's.
It's very blunt in terms ofwhat they can understand.

(58:51):
But, yeah, a lot ofconversations that I didn't
expect to be having with them.
We have pictures up.
You know, we have there's abench in town, we have a bench
at our new house in Arizona, um,that has him on it.
So we go to daddy's park allthe time.
Actually, just this morning,calvin, our youngest, who just
turned two, he was at daddy, andso we go to the park, we draw

(59:13):
pictures for him on the concreteunder the bench, you know, and
and I ask what they want to sayand I write it down for them,
and so, yeah, it's okay.
I mean, again, I really do stillthink that I am in a lot of
denial and I don't think thatit's come full circle to me,
that it's just such a bigconcept to wrap your head around

(59:34):
, like how did this happen?
Especially sudden, whichhappens a lot with suicide, you
know, it's like you don't haveany time to say goodbye, you
don't have any time to to knowthat that's your last
conversation, to know that, likeI don't know when I kissed my
husband last, you know, and thatis never something that you
would think that would be real.
So I don't know if it's evergoing to make sense in my brain,

(59:55):
but you do have to keep ongoing and you have to just keep
on making choice after choiceand it does get simpler, I guess
, to go through the motions,maybe not easier.
I have a very hard time withanger and so I know that in my
grieving journey I'm very stuckon the anger part because I
don't feel, I don't feel like Ican be angry at Mike because of

(01:00:20):
who he was.
I can't be mad at him, even fortaking his life and, you know,
leaving us quote, quote in thissituation.
I can't because he was neverthat way to us, he was never
that way to anybody, like he waseverything to everybody.
And so how can I be mad at himfor giving himself this mercy in
his life?
So I get hung up on that,giving himself this mercy in his

(01:00:44):
life.
So I get hung up on that.
And I think there's so manyemotions in the grieving process
that it's really hard sometimesto feel them all because you
feel very conflicted about someof them.
But yeah, you'll make it.
I mean you don't really have achoice.
You know everyone says, oh mygosh, you're, you're, you're so
strong, you're making it through, and it's like there is no
other choice.
You know, I don't want to be inthis situation.
I want to just lay down and donothing.
But you don't get that choice,especially as a parent, and

(01:01:07):
it'll become more normal, whichsucks, but it's just.
It's just.
There's your life beforesomething like this happens and
there's your life after, andthey call it a chapter two.
You know, for a reason theycall the next relationship
you're in a chapter two.
You know for a reason they callthe next relationship you're in
a chapter two because itdoesn't have to be the same.
It's never going to be the sameand you're never going to be
the same as you were before.

(01:01:27):
And I think embracing that andknowing I'm not even the same
person I was almost gives afreedom to be like I don't have
to pretend my life is the way itwas before because it's not.
It's different, but I cansettle into it.
I guess you know, while beingsad, what do you?

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
think needs to change in our society and in our
culture to help support men,especially those that seem fine
on the outside but areinternally struggling, and maybe
in relation to chronic pain aswell.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Yeah Well, on the chronic pain side, I think we
absolutely need universal healthcare.
I will say that until I die.
We need affordable health care,we need affordable therapy, we
need access to help, especiallyfor invisible illnesses like
mental health.
I think we need to talk aboutit more and I mean, I think we
need to talk about it sincelittle boys are little kids, you

(01:02:24):
know.
I mean we don't have to do thiswhole oh, you're fine, you're
fine, just get up Like, don't bea crybaby.
You know, all of that language,I think, molds people into how
they're gonna deal with theiremotions.
You know, and I think, if wecan start using empathetic
language in terms of emotion tochildren, to our kids, you know,
especially our little boys,like in sports and all of this

(01:02:48):
kind of stuff, like it starts, Ithink, so young that men
specifically, but everybodyinternalizes these emotions,
they bottle it up, they don'tshare anything.
You know, I think, perhapsreducing screen time and like
talking with your children andtrying to keep the lines of
communication open and or spouseor whoever you know, having

(01:03:09):
really uncomfortable situations,this is the person, if you're
speaking about, your spouse,that you spend every day with,
that you're the most comfortablewith and still it is very
uncomfortable to have aconversation of how's your
mental health?
Have you ever consideredsuicide?
Have you ever considered takingyour life?
That's weird, that sounds weirdto say even to this person who
you share your life with.
But if you can get past theuncomfortable and they know that

(01:03:32):
they can bring it up, there'sno studies that have shown that
talking about suicide increasesthe risk of somebody taking
their life.
But there is a lot of researchin terms of sidestepping it and
not asking, and people still,you know, ending in that
conclusion.
So saying the word suicide,bringing up suicide, is not
going to tip the scales forsomeone, but it may make them

(01:03:52):
feel more comfortable sharingthose thoughts with you.
And I think if you know somebodywho's dealt with that or
previous suicide attempts ortheir mental health, I think
opening up that conversation andthen just listening, not
freaking out, not saying oh mygosh, like, do we need to check
you into a rehab?
Do we need to do this?
Do you need a psych hold.
That's why I think people don'treach out.

(01:04:14):
They think that they're goingto be labeled this suicidal
person and, oh my gosh, they'regoing to call the cops on me or
they're gonna check me into theloony bin, they that's what they
think is gonna happen.
And so if we can just havethese conversations calmly, like
you know, if, especially if,they say yes, then I think
that's gonna spur people on tospeak about it more.
And so I think even just sayingthe word suicide on social

(01:04:34):
media or, you know, in person,goes a long way, because it is
such a taboo word and topicAbsolutely, and you related it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
I thought this analogy was.
So it helped me kind ofvisualize things a little bit.
Where we're really comfortablewith talking about stages of
cancer right Stage one, stagetwo, stage three, stage four you
know stage one, stage two, likelower in the numbers, you have
a higher rate of survival.
Know stage one, stage two, likelower in the numbers, you have
a higher rate of survival.

(01:05:04):
But and I feel like what I keepthe theme that I keep getting
from a lot of these podcasts isit's really critical to start
having these conversations whensomeone is at a stage one, stage
two, but when you get higher upin the stages it's it's a lot
harder to come back yeah, andsometimes, and sometimes you can
, sometimes you can't.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
I mean, suicide prevention is a tricky word for
some people because they feel alot of guilt Like, oh well, if I
could prevent suicide, doesthat mean I didn't do everything
I could?
And sometimes you just don'tknow.
Sometimes you don't know thatit's a problem until it's
already at a stage four, and itdoesn't matter what you say to
that person, they're convincedthat that's the choice for them,
whereas had you been able toget to them in an earlier stage,

(01:05:45):
when it was just maybe a tinylittle thought that bounced off
their heads, maybe you couldhave, you know.
So not all suicides arepreventable, but I think if we
start early enough, perhapspeople can steer themselves back
to a good mental state and andcan keep pushing that conclusion
away.
You know, and and it's not areal possibility for them, as

(01:06:07):
long as we can keep it at bay assomething that they're not
really thinking about actuallydoing.
It's just passive suicideideation, it's not active, like
making a plan, I think.
I think that would help.
Making a plan, I think thatwould help.
And sometimes people don't letyou in.
My husband never, you know, henever said it, so you can't help

(01:06:28):
something you don't know about.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
Yeah.
Is there anything else wehaven't covered in this
recording that you want to makesure you share with anybody
who's listening?

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
I don't think so.
I think it's just um, howeverit is, you lose someone, it's
it's just, it sucks, it sucks.
It sucks to be, and if it'ssuicide, it really sucks.
And if you're struggling withyour mental health, that sucks
Like you will make it through,but it's just, it is awful.

(01:07:00):
And I am so sorry if anybodylistening to this has been
through this.
I'm so sorry if anybodylistening to this is struggling
with their mental health andconsidering taking their life.
I think if my husband wouldhave known how his loss affected
everyone, I don't think hecould have done it.
I think he just had convincedhimself that he was a burden.

(01:07:21):
He, you know, he was not neededin the think.
And there really are peoplethat are willing to help you if

(01:07:44):
you can find the strength toreach out or let people help you
, so just please reach out,please exhaust all of your
opportunities before youconsider making a choice like
this.
And if it still happens, Iwon't judge you, but we will
miss you.
It's just, it's not a funjourney.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Rachel, thank you so much.
Your story is so important,your words are important and I
just know that.
I am grateful to talk with youtoday, and I know a lot of our
listeners are going to be movedand learn so much more just
based off of our conversation.

(01:08:22):
So thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for joining us forthis episode of she Diaries.
We know these conversations canbe incredibly heavy.
If you're feeling overwhelmed orneed support, please take a
moment to care for yourself.
In the show notes you'll findlinks to mental health resources
, crisis lines and supportgroups.

(01:08:44):
If you're in crisis or needimmediate help, call or text 988
or visit 988lifelineorg.
You are not alone.
If today's story moved you,we'd love for you to subscribe,
leave a review or share theepisode with someone who might
need it to subscribe, leave areview or share the episode with
someone who might need it Tostay connected.
Follow us on social media atBright Sky House and subscribe

(01:09:06):
to our e-newsletter atbrightskyhousecom.
If you'd like to connect with aguest or share your own story
for a future episode, send us anote at hello at

(01:09:30):
brightskyhousecom.
Every story deserves to beheard.
Thank you for helping bringthis one to light Until next
time.
I'm Krista Gregg and this isshe Diaries, fingers crossing
now On my way.

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