March 30, 2025 • 54 mins
#216 Today's guest is Kelly Uchima—a passionate Asian American mental health advocate and wellness content creator, named Health and Wellness Influencer of the Year by the Influence Agency in 2023. As a sought-after speaker at events hosted by Meta, Samsung, VidCon, and Reese Witherspoon’s Hello Sunshine, Kelly is dedicated to breaking down mental health stigmas through her honest and vulnerable storytelling. In this episode, we discuss:
+ what it's like to struggle with an ED at a young age
+ feeling powerless as a kid facing mental health challenges
+ working through childhood wounds as you grow older
+ stopping unhealthy coping mechanisms & addictive behaviors
+ narcissistic & codependent relationships
+ opening up to your parents about mental health
+ trying to make changes in your family dynamic as an adult
+ finding healthier relationships + friendships in your 20s
+ dealing with gut health issues + how that's connected to mental health
+ how to have a better relationship with your body
+ the power of choosing yourself
Kelly's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kellyu/
MENTIONED
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Sheep Assisted, the Gen.
Z mental health podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton.
Let's get into it. What I hope most people get out
of this is I have not perfectly figured it all out, but I love
being on the healing journey. I think when I was younger I
always wanted things to just be finished, but I think there's a
lot of joy that I found and connection with people because I
(00:23):
struggle. Might sound weird, but I kind of
love it. Hello you guys and welcome back
to Sheep Assisted. I am so excited to hear today we
have a really vulnerable conversation that touches on so
many topics that I know all you guys can relate to.
Whether it's struggling with your mental health at a young
age and how that can be really challenging to navigate, to
(00:43):
struggling to feel seen in your relationship with family members
and especially when you're struggling with mental health
challenges. We talk about self esteem, sort
of eating, relationships, addiction, literally everything
in this conversation and I know you guys will absolutely adore
it. Guest today is Kelly Ochima.
She is a passionate Asian American mental health advocate
(01:04):
and Wellness content creator. She's been super authentic and
open about her experiences with mental health, IBS, sobriety,
relationships, all of the above.And we really touch on all those
areas throughout this episode. And so I know you guys will
relate to some aspect, if not all of this conversation.
You can find Kelly on all socialplatforms at at Kelly U.
(01:24):
And without further ado, let's dive in.
Well, thank you so much for joining me on Sheep Assisted
today. Kelly, I'm so excited to have
you on the show and hear all about your experience.
I think this is an episode that will resonate with a lot of
listeners, especially Gen. Z, because we are being more
open and transparent about struggling body image and eating
disorders are disordered eating,as well as things like IBS.
(01:46):
I feel like it's my whole TikTokfeed.
So it's definitely something where we're in it together and
I'm really excited to dive into your story and advice.
Oh, Sadie, that's so nice. And I really love, you know, I'm
actually flattered that you say this is for the Gen.
Z because I am a millennial. But I feel like even though I'm
31, I feel like I'm in my early 20s.
(02:07):
And as we keep talking, I think anyone listening will start to
realize maybe why I feel like a lot of my 20s were really robbed
from me by my experiences and truly by myself.
Like, my life was very miserablebefore.
I'll say that. I was struggling so much with
eating disorder. I was in an abusive narcissistic
(02:28):
relationship. I was not getting along with my
family. I really didn't like myself and
struggled with anxiety, depression.
I really clung to anything that helped me to not like myself.
I was an addict. So I'm really excited to kind of
dive through all of that. And I think what I hope most
people get out of this is I havenot perfectly figured it all
(02:50):
out, but I love being on the healing journey.
I think when I was younger, I always wanted things to just be
finished. I was so tired of living and
suffering. But I think there's a lot of joy
that I found and connection withpeople because I struggle.
It might sound weird, but I kindof love it, yeah.
(03:11):
No, I, I completely agree. And I, we talked about this on
the podcast last week. Whereas when you're in the
journey, the destination is really motivating because the
journey is so painful and challenging and it's.
All. Consuming exactly.
And then once you've been to thedestination once, regardless of
(03:32):
kind of like what area of life that is in the journey can be
somewhat more motivating becauseyou know, there's light on the
other side. But when we were going through
it for the first time, it is such a hopeless, demoralizing
experience because even though you're told like it gets better,
things will change. It's possible to shift these
things. You don't have that lived
experience, that proof doesn't exist for your within your
(03:53):
context and and memories. And so that can be really
challenging in the moment. I would love to go back to a
couple of these things that you mentioned in your 20s.
A lot of listeners are in that age demographic and struggling
with these things, whether it's relationships or behaviors that
they want to shift away from their own internal self-image,
(04:13):
self esteem. It's something that we are
really do all struggle to develop and come to terms with
in these like early adulthood years.
We can kind of go through all ofit or some of it, but I would
love to hear the advice, the insights, the wisdom that you
wish you would have had at that point in your life that you have
learned throughout those experiences.
(04:36):
It would probably be best to tackle 1 by 1.
I mean, I think this all really started for me, my struggles
when I was 10 years old. And I think a lot of us realize,
oh, when we're 20s and 30s and we're in a bad relationship or
have a bad relationship with ourselves, we're like, oh, this
started when I was a kid. And like, how is that possible?
And for me, I became anorexic atthe age of 10.
(04:59):
And I really did think it was about the food and being made
fun of for being chubby by this boy at school that I really
liked. And of course, sure, as gals and
as humans, we feel very insecureabout the way people perceive
us. But when I was 19, I started
going to therapy for my binge eating.
And I told my therapist, hey, I'm only here because I struggle
(05:19):
with binge eating and something's wrong with me.
I need you to help fix this problem.
And I think this was in our second session where she went,
so what's your relationship likewith your dad?
And I was so offended. I said, what does that have to
do with it? It's.
Off the table. In here and even though I had a
very, very tenuous relationship with my dad, I felt really
(05:41):
protective of him and my family.You know, I grew up where there
was a lot of fighting between mom and dad, very chaotic.
I felt like they didn't even like each other.
And my sister and I felt like wewere the mediators and the
therapists. But my parents always said I
love you to us and each other and we hugged and we affirmed
each other. So in my mind we were fine.
(06:02):
But I knew there was a lot of toxicity underneath it all and I
didn't want her to drum all thatup, mostly because I had not
even realized half of it. And I I realized that I only
knew a certain way of life whereit was numbing, numbing my
feelings, tuning out. And I found every way possible
to do that. I had eating disorders, I had
(06:24):
depression, anxiety. And then in my 20s, I became
really addicted to smoking weed every single day.
I am sober for your sober. And I know sometimes that's a
hot take and saying you're soberfrom smoking weed, but really
you can become sober from any anything because being addicted
to something means that you are using it to not feel things, to
(06:44):
deal with things, and you use itto deal with things because you
actually can't deal with a real thing.
And over the years, I've really tried my hardest to involve my
parents in trying to explain my struggles to them.
And thank God they have actuallybeen receptive.
But there was a time when we didn't talk for a long time, for
(07:05):
about a year, a year or two. And I didn't want to be
associated with either of them because I felt like we were all
telling each other lies. And I think that happens a lot
in families where we just want to get along with the family
system. Yet we have all these underlying
feelings and we feel like our parents are not going to be able
to deal with them, which is almost always the sad truth.
And some advice I wish I had, You know, my therapist helped me
(07:29):
kind of set boundaries, but I wish I knew that regardless if
they did turn around or not, I had to do what I needed to do in
order to make peace with them. Whether it be not talking to
them ever again because that would mean I'd have more peace
or really getting into The Dirty, yucky screaming, yelling
(07:49):
conversations and telling them my truths, which is what I ended
up doing. And it's not easy.
And no one, you never know what the outcome is going to be.
And I think we just have to do it for ourselves.
There's two things that I want to touch on there. 1 is this
experience of struggling at a really young age, because I
think a lot of listeners in Gen.Z will share this experience
(08:11):
where we have these really big emotions.
We really truly are struggling with big mental health
challenges. And the way that we're coping
with those can also be brilliant, effective and ADD and
kind of exacerbate those mental health challenges.
And I remember when I was depressed and anxious and even
though there were these externalmarkers that like things weren't
(08:32):
right, I was possibleized or struggling with self harm or had
doctors being like, this got to work on this, This isn't right.
This isn't normal. There's still that like
perception that you can't feel that level of distress at that
age. Like if you're in elementary
school or middle school, it's like what?
Like there's always like confusion that at that age, that
level of dysfunction and distress and overwhelm isn't
(08:55):
possible. And it's crazy because I even
noticed it myself now where I'llsee people the age that I was
when I was struck with my mentalhealth.
And I'm like, there's no way. Like, how is that possible?
But it's a common experience forso many.
And it can be even more isolating and alienating because
then you're hearing like, I shouldn't feel this way and I'm
wrong for having these experiences.
And especially as a young adult,as a child, you're like, I
(09:18):
haven't experienced enough that would justify these emotions or
behaviors or whatever it is. And so I'd love to kind of hear
about your experience there struggling at such a young age
in such a big way, because that is something that a lot of
people find to be really isolating or misunderstood and
get invalidated on a large scale.
This is one of my biggest fears when I think about having kids.
(09:40):
I remember going to school and Iwas like, how am I supposed to
study and do homework and have to get good grades when my home
life is miserable and I'm not eating and I'm starving and I'm
fuzzy headed and I just want to watch TV and I just want to
binge eat. I'm like, I worry because I know
now at an adult age I can make sense of it all.
(10:00):
I'm like, OK, I just have to work to make sure.
Like I can keep living. But that frustrates me too.
Like I still feel like a kid sometimes where it's ridiculous
that we have to balance all all these spinning plates.
So I think about my gosh, me thinking of having to send my
child to school where they have to do assignments and like I
know they need to for socialization, but just knowing
(10:21):
that a child is responsible for so much.
And the pressure that's put on them or they put on themselves,
even if you're affirming like welove you regardless, your
identity is not tied to this. It's so hard.
Right. And for parents who are not self
aware like my parents were back then, even if they told me it's
not your job to help me talk through issues with dad or mom,
(10:45):
I'm hearing it either from your lips or from like the next room.
Even though you've closed it. I can hear, I can feel.
And even if I don't hear it whenyou come back into the room, I
feel the energy has dropped, thetemperature has changed.
And I think a lot of us humans become very hyper vigilant
because we are very much absorbing the energies of our
(11:08):
family or even kids around us. But we feel really powerless.
And I had a big sense of powerlessness as a kid.
So I wanted to figure out a way to be empowered in my life.
And I felt really powerful by being able to control eating,
not eating, being stuck in my anxiety over exercising.
There were so many ways where I was like, I need to be powerful
(11:30):
in some kind of way because I feel very powerless.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's somethingthat is so challenging and I
think increasingly is an issue of this level of autonomy and
not even like, do you have power?
It's like, do the steps that youtake have an impact on the
outcome? And I think as a young adult,
(11:52):
that is something that we lack both on like an individual
level. Like, do I feel like I can get
through this anxiety or stress or argument?
Do I feel emotionally adept there?
But also on like a larger scale,we have these widespread mental
health issues, and the academic pressures are so extreme, and
there's politics and climate change.
So that level of hopelessness and almost like being paralyzed
(12:17):
by inability to do anything different can be really
distressing. I even feel now, you know, I'm
still in therapy. I've been going to therapy on
and off since I was 19 years old.
And I was just talking to my therapist about, for example,
like a big struggle right now I'm dealing with is when I
receive a compliment, I am terrified of receiving it.
(12:39):
And she helped me realize why. Now, if any of you have
narcissistic people in your family or if you've been in a
relationship with the narcissist, which I have had,
both those types of people require unconditional love and
respect and admiration and affirmation.
Even when they do a lot of things that prove that they are
(13:01):
not deserving of it or they havebetrayed you, yet you are still
required to give them that love,admiration, and respect.
And for me, my biggest fear is once I receive it, that's like
narcissistic, like how could youbelieve that you are good or you
are anything? And it's so interesting that
even with all of this knowledge that I have, there's this
(13:23):
underlying fear of, I want them to stop being narcissistic.
So I'm going to show them that you don't need these
compliments. It's like I'm still trying to
undo things based on my behavior.
But then that becomes really self-destructive.
And you would think you're not akid anymore, you're not a
teenager or more, you're not in that relationship anymore.
You should be happy. I'm in such a happy place in my
life and I have a great relationship and I've great
(13:44):
friends and I have a career thatI like.
So much of those roots still affect me.
But now I think, thank goodness I can see them for what it is.
What I think that's helpful for people to know in their journey
is like, no one's got it figuredout.
And that's really annoying actually.
I would hate when people said that.
I was like, wait, so you're telling me all of the suffering,
(14:07):
I'm not going to be perfect, butthere's a beauty in that because
at least you can choose. You choose not to give into the
coping strategies and mechanismsthat are really unhealthy.
Like I actually decide not to fall into pits of my addiction
and binge eating and self loathing.
I choose to go out in the sun. I choose to go for a walk.
I choose to call a friend. I choose to get a yummy treat
(14:29):
and not feel bad about it. There's choices and there's a
lot of freedom there. I love that you mentioned that
because I posted a TikTok a couple weeks ago and I was with
my mental health rules and one of them I said if you're not
progressing you're regressing because for me if I go on
autopilot it's not good. Like I.
Autopilot. That's a great way.
Yeah, that's awesome. Not like, not like.
(14:51):
That's good. That's the way you're viewing,
yes. Yeah, yeah.
Like if you have that backgroundand that context and that
history of coping and effectively or speaking to
yourself in a really negative way or not showing up in your
relationships vulnerably and, and setting boundaries
correctly, autopilot isn't a good thing.
And so for me, if I'm always focused on like, OK, how am I
moving? Like the idiots bittiest baby
(15:12):
step in the right direction and just don't make things worse.
And then I know that I'm in the progression, not the regression
box. And everyone was like, that's
such a toxic mindset. Like you just have to like be as
is. And what you're saying is like,
you can be as is, but you're making that choice and that's
moving you in the right direction, which is so
incredibly powerful and positiveand empowering.
(15:32):
But then I think the frustratingpart that I get asked a lot and
I would ask people who were doing more mentally well than
me, I'd be like, yes, but how you're not telling me how you
did it and how I did it was hitting rock bottom.
And that's not what I recommend.It's not something that I think
everyone should do, but I think that really is the cycle of life
(15:54):
sometimes where unless there's aconsequence to the way you're
living your life, why change it?If I was able to smoke weed and
not feel feelings I wasn't readyfor, then I wasn't ready for it.
I stayed in that abusive relationship for almost 7 years
because I until I hit a certain point where it got so
(16:17):
unbelievably insane. Then I was ready to make a
choice. And I truly believe for at least
myself that until I was ready tobe alone, which was the scariest
thing of all time, and to not have any of my numbing
strategies, I couldn't do it. I wasn't strong enough.
You know, there is a strength insurvival, but there's a lot of
strength in building the self-confidence to then deal
(16:40):
with the fallout. The fallout of losing all the
things that are unhealthy for you.
You don't feel better, you actually feel worse because
you're now in the most uncomfortable place you've ever
been. We have no distractions that are
chaotic. I'm not having a fight with my
partner, I'm not not talking to my mom.
I'm not binging and recovering. Now I just have to sit with
(17:03):
myself and feel the things I've been avoiding and now go to
therapy once or twice a week andend some friendships and feel
like I'm a loser and picking myself back up.
That's at least how I did it. Now how do you get out of the
slums is proving to yourself that you can live in this
unknown place. Because in the unknown is where
(17:27):
you finally start to think, whatdo I want to be?
How do I want to feel? Who am I?
How did I get here? You learn the lessons by not
having all of the distractions and all the toxicity that that
is a sucky place, but that's howyou start.
Yeah, I really like what you mentioned about why we do these
(17:48):
things and why these we keep these ineffective and unhealthy
things in our life. And I think that was one of my
favorite parts of being in therapy was like truly
understanding why I was engagingin these behaviors or why these
relationship challenges kept showing up.
And we do things for a reason, right?
Like a lot of the times it's like, I don't know why I'm
making these choices. I don't know why I can't just do
the thing that will make me feelbetter.
(18:08):
But we're meeting a need. Like we're coping with this
thing because the emotion is toodistressing to tolerate.
We don't trust ourselves to sit with it.
We don't feel safe being alone. And so understanding that like
we're doing these things for a reason.
And how can you more effectivelyget that need met?
And it really is like you mentioned that almost like
addiction model where it's like you start with fun and then it's
(18:30):
fun with problems and then it's just problems.
And at some point, it's like thecons are outweighing the pros
and you just for whatever like line in the sand that is, you
start to make that shift becauseit's no longer sustainable to
continue with those unhealthy things in your life.
Even though they've served a purpose and they've saved you or
helped you or whatever it is they helped get you through.
(18:52):
The cons are outweighing the pros.
And don't get me wrong, I missedthe highs.
Like not just from a substance, but like, do you think being
sober all the time is really fun?
No. Do you think that being in a
really peaceful, healthy relationship that's always calm
is exhilarating? Not really.
I had to change the way I viewedhappiness and dopamine and
(19:17):
serotonin because the way I got that was us fighting really bad
and hitting each other and then calling each other back and
making up or getting high and then not being high, then
getting high again. I, I don't love not having all
of that adrenaline, but I do love who I am because I no
longer have those things. Like it's not the funnest life,
(19:39):
but it is the happiest life thatI have now.
And because I don't have all those highs to cling on to, I
realize, Oh my gosh, going outside and meeting up with
friends and being in the sun anddoing all these other activities
brings so much joy. But I was not used to enjoying
peaceful connected things because when I was doing all my
other coping mechanisms, I couldnot connect with myself or other
(20:02):
people. So you know, I always thought I
can't wait to be sober and in happy relationship and get along
with my family. It is also uncomfortable to have
everything you've ever wanted. You just got to keep allowing
yourself to receive the positivity and like the fruits
of your labor. And that's uncomfortable too
(20:24):
because you're like, am I even deserving of this?
Where's the mess? Let me go clean a mess up.
Where is it? Yeah, 100%.
I would love to get your thoughts on being addicted to
these various like relationshipsor behaviors or outlets, because
I think this is something that alot of us struggle with and
it's, I don't know if it's more prominent in Gen.
(20:45):
Z, but it definitely seems like a more increasingly common
behavior than we've seen historically, whether it's with
TikTok or nicotine is out of control.
It's crazy. We do sometimes see this with
drinking or weed like you mentioned, but I think also a
lot in our relationship dynamics, other unhealthy ways
of coping. Maybe it's disordered eating or
(21:06):
even just the way that we're relating to the thing, right?
A lot of it is that mentality oflike, am I using this to avoid?
Am I using using this to be ableto tolerate the stress that
otherwise I couldn't? And so I'd kind of love to get
your thoughts there on like being addicted to things that
we're not chemically addicted to, but it can really derail our
lives because it's an ineffective relationship.
(21:26):
I would say I was. I used to be the most
codependent person on this earth.
I was addicted to someone lovingme and I think I had a lot of
issue with not knowing if I really loved the other person.
Like I was so desperate for a guy to like me and affirm me and
view me as special. That's what made me like them.
(21:49):
And that's really sad to know that I didn't even know myself
enough to be able to deeply connect and my sense of self was
so fragile. Like if they called me or texted
me or if they decided to stay with me, if they cheated on me,
if they came back, if they cheated on me, even my first
boyfriend when I was 15 years old, this kid, we he was like a
skater boy and I was so in love with him, right?
(22:10):
We even had the same birthday, June 29th.
No, it was seriously fate, right?
And this was some like punk, like pop music was really in.
So we'd like sit with our headphones after school and like
sharing music together. And then, you know, there was a
rumor going around that there was like this underclassmen,
like a new freshman that he had a crush on.
(22:31):
And I was like, Nah, man. And I was so embarrassed because
it turned out that everyone knewthat like, they were having a
thing. And one day he literally just
stopped talking to me. And for the next three years of
high school, he looked through me like I was dead.
Like, we're in the same homeroomevery single day the next three
years. And that really set a pattern
that coincided with like my family life.
(22:54):
My one of my parents was codependent, one of them was
narcissistic. And for me, I was just like,
hey, as long as someone likes me, that's good enough, as long
as they're not treating me really badly.
But then I ended up going into another relationship that was
really codependent. And then my longest one where
that person was a narcissist. And because the abuse was
(23:15):
different than what I saw, I thought I could take it.
And I didn't think cheating was the worst thing.
I didn't think that emotional manipulation was the worst thing
because I thought we were in love.
And for me, being in a relationship with my incredible
partner. Now we've been together for
almost three years. He is such a safe place.
He is kind, loving, so interesting, so brilliant, hard
(23:37):
working. But I told my therapist a few
months ago I was like, I'm like a little bored.
And I felt really guilty becausehalf of me has always wanted
just a great person, really great.
And it's not that he's boring. I'm not getting any of the highs
(23:58):
and lows and whiplash. Like, I don't get me wrong, I
didn't like it, but I love it. Yeah.
There's a part of me that's not being fed.
And so I have to find ways to still be engaged in this
relationship and see it for whatit is.
And I still have to change. I still have to notice when I'm
wanting something crazy to happen or me thinking that I
(24:19):
need to have, like, other peopleto talk to.
Like I start thinking, oh, am I going to start doing bad things
and doing things that might hurthim?
No. But do I think about it
sometimes? Yes, because there's just no
chaos and I would never want to hurt him.
But those are those feelings that I think a lot of people
feel ashamed for. And I even saying those now,
(24:39):
it's like, I only feel safe enough to tell you them because
I've worked through them and I don't do any of those things.
And even telling my girlfriends,I'd be like, hey, guys, if any,
you know, I talked to only ones who have been married, like in
long term relationships, I say, hey, does anyone else like think
of other people sometimes like, yeah, you just don't do it.
I was like, OK, OK, cool. But I felt so guilty and you
(25:01):
just have to catch yourself. And I'm not saying to yourself
you're in trouble, just go huh? That just makes sense because of
the life I've lived and I need to choose differently because I
like my life. Why would I fuck it up?
Yeah, Yeah. You mentioned something earlier
in our discussion that I want tocircle back to because it's one
of the most common things that Ihear from listeners, which is
(25:21):
that parents are not responding effectively or well to mental
health challenges. And I think this, I don't know
if it is more challenging when you're like at home or when
you're for the first time not athome and you have so much more
autonomy and you're like, I really wish that relationship
was different or I now have the official space to be able to
really unpack that dynamic. What are your thoughts there on
(25:44):
not getting the response that you would want to or not feeling
seen or heard but also really needing that support when you're
struggling with your mental health in a big way?
When I was a freshman in college, I remember calling my
mom and saying hey, I'm really struggling with depression.
Like I'm not doing well. I really want to see a
(26:05):
therapist. I know I'm on your insurance.
Like would it be OK if I find one in network?
And she was terrified. I mean her voice completely
changed and she started soundingreally really sad.
And I understand where she was coming from because she is
Chinese, my dad's Japanese, and there's no discussion of mental
(26:26):
health. But specifically for her and my
dad, my mom had. They both had a daughter before
my older sister and me. And she actually died at three
months of SIDS. That's called sudden infant
death syndrome. So she just fell, she fell
asleep for a nap and just never woke up.
There's no reason for it. Even the doctor said that Asian
girls are the least likely to die from this.
(26:50):
So in her mind she immediately was frozen and thought please
don't like kill yourself basically.
And I felt really bad for her, but at the same time I was
infuriated because she wasn't hearing me.
Yeah. And I just really had to decide
I'm still going to I'm going to go to therapy.
So at least can I get your OK todo this.
(27:10):
But my parents were so afraid ofme getting on antidepressants.
They were so afraid of me unearthing things.
They hated me addressing them and confronting them with my
feelings about them, their relationship, how we were
raised, how the family was. They weren't ready for that, and
I think it was honestly until like 10 years later, they were
ready for really, really direct conversations.
(27:32):
And actually my parents ended upseparating as a result of that.
They started to admit to themselves they had messed up in
certain ways. They also forgave themselves.
And we've all now been able to function as a family where we
all tell the truth. And I just felt like our family
is full of lies just because we don't know anything different.
We're just trying to get by. And I think it's really hard
(27:53):
when your parents don't see whatyou see.
I think it's more than just wishing your family was healthy
and functional. It's more of a feeling of, can
you just believe me? Yeah.
That's one of the hardest thingsin my life of even having been
in an abusive relationship. That person and their family, I,
(28:14):
I don't know to this day, but atleast when I left, they did not
believe me. They felt like I was dramatic or
causing problems by telling the truth.
And that's how my family felt too, for a long time.
So I really felt like I was on this lonely little island by
myself. And the only person who really
saw me was my therapist. And then of course, when you're
(28:35):
surrounded by toxic people or narcissists, I often question
myself, am I just narcissistic? Am I the problem?
And of course, obviously narcissistician people don't ask
themselves that. But I did also have to own that.
I had a lot of parts in the toxicity, whether it was playing
my specific role in the family system.
Like for a long time I was just like acting this way.
(28:57):
But then I became the black sheep because I finally was
myself. And I think that happened in my
relationship too, where I my when we broke up, I said I can't
live in this false reality you live in anymore.
So the hard part is you have to stick to your gut and that will
often alienate you from people, but it'll bring you to the
people that are meant to be in your life.
Like you will have a much more happy, fulfilling life if you
(29:19):
stop pretending. Yeah, yeah.
Having challenges with your family relationships and not
feeling seen and also not feeling like you see the same
thing as your parents, which areso challenging for over a
decade. I think so many people are
listening, can relate, but are also like, how do you be OK with
that? Because there's like some.
(29:40):
Like, how do you do family dinners and holidays?
Yeah, and just. Accept when you wish, you wish
it was different, right? Like you're taking the steps and
going to therapy and trying to have these conversations and,
and shift the dynamic. You, you want something better
for yourself and for your family.
And it's not happening for at least for like whatever period
of time. And so I'm curious how you
navigated that mentally. Personally, being like, this
(30:04):
really isn't where I want it to be.
It's not only not where I want it to be, but it's painful to
experience and probably has likeripple effects in other
relationships because our parents and our relationship
always has that effect. And I'm curious kind of how you
navigated that experience for those 10 years when there wasn't
that breakthrough and feeling like on the other side of those
challenges? Well, I definitely beat a dead
(30:25):
horse by sending many a e-mail and many attacks to both of my
parents, had tough conversationswith my sister and a lot of it
was just them feeling like why are you bringing all this up?
Why are you causing all these issues?
And every so often I would try and then I would get the same
response. And you know, sometimes I would
just sit at dinners and and holidays and just play my part.
(30:48):
And that is sometimes the easy way out where you're like, I
don't want to suffer and be rejected again.
So sometimes that feels like a self protective thing and other
times you're just stewing in, feeling stifled by that.
And I think the way that I was able to navigate that was these
were opportunities for me to build a relationship with
myself. That's what my therapist and I
(31:09):
often kept reiterating is you cannot change people, but this
is you shaping the rest of your life and every relationship
moving forward. So even though these
relationships are not where you want them to be right now, at
least you're being who you really are to them as long as it
feels safe, you know, not every family doesn't like scream at
(31:31):
you back and tells you to shut up.
You know, at least my parents just were kind of like, please
stop being annoying and bringingthings up, you know?
So I think that it's really hard, but you have to think
about yourself, which is tough because when you're just
surrounded by people that mean so much to you, you kind of just
see yourself as a reflection of them.
And it's really hard to start building your own life,
(31:53):
especially when you're young. I mean, when I was a teenage
years, my parents were really all I had.
So when they were annoyed by my bad mood and didn't think that I
had depression or ADHD or just got broken up with, they thought
I was just a really Moody teenager.
I believed it. Yeah, it's, it's really
challenging. And I think you haven't gone
(32:14):
through that phase where you areable to create your own identity
completely independent of your family dynamics.
And so it's really hard to have that full sense of self and form
your own opinions and understandwhat your values are independent
of those relationships because you really just haven't had the
opportunity. And it makes everything from a
(32:34):
mental health perspective so much more challenging.
And it's a privilege to be able to no longer live at home,
right? Like, I luckily went to college.
I was in a lot of debt, you know, paying for my own housing,
though, you know, after college,a lot of people, if they are
able to go, they do return home to save money.
And luckily, I went to College in a really small town,
(32:56):
Champaign, IL, so I could affordthe $495 rent after I graduated.
It's crazy to think that that's how much it was.
But back then that felt like a lot to me because I still had
debt from school and my housing,and I knew that it was best for
me to never move home. But most of my friends did.
And I felt envious because they could have saved so much money.
But I needed to be away from that to keep pursuing my
(33:20):
healing. But when I wasn't in my toxic
family dynamic with my family, Ifound another toxic dynamic by
clinging on to my ex-boyfriend where we had codependency.
I needed him so much. He needed me so much.
We both had anxiety, we both haddepression.
We felt like that's kind of whatbonded us because we felt like
our families didn't really understand.
(33:41):
But what I didn't understand wasthat although I was feeling
really loved and affirmed and cared for because he saw me, he
also was cheating on me and was very manipulative and had a lot
of dark parts of him that I always chose.
I chose to ignore. He would tell me things that he
(34:01):
thought and did and felt that terrified me, but I didn't.
I was not ready to lose what I needed.
I needed him because I didn't feel like I was anything without
him. And he had told me, you know,
you think anyone's ever going tolove you.
You think anyone's going to put up with you.
Like look at all I've done for you.
And there was a part of me that because I wasn't close to my
(34:22):
family, like he was all I had, Ididn't have any friends either.
I was not good at socializing until probably like a maybe like
my late 20s. Yeah, if you were back in that
position again where you were like, OK, I'm being independent,
I'm choosing not to go home to that home environment or you're
going to college and you're kindof embarking on this new chapter
(34:43):
with the context that, like, you'd struggled with your mental
health, family relationships weren't that like resource that
you wish they were. How would you have approached
those relationship dynamics or setting yourself up for success
in that completely new context differently with everything that
you know now? Honestly, I wouldn't change
anything because I think anyone in these positions, we're just
(35:06):
like trying to survive and financially we really don't have
anything. I started going to therapy
because my college offered threefree sessions at the counseling
center. And for anyone listening, even
though you're not at college, there are free drop in groups
whether they be virtual through a Zoom, even like group meetings
for codependency for addiction. I did all of that.
(35:28):
I would go to a $5 drop in Groupfor eaters Anonymous in Chicago.
And if you couldn't afford $5, you could still go.
And for a while when I couldn't afford the co-pays for my
insurance because it's still insane.
Even if you have insurance, insurance does not mean it's
free. I would just go to these free
groups or do them through my phone or on Zoom.
(35:50):
Those are the things that I, I encourage everyone to do because
therapy is often such a privileged thing to recommend.
And I know because when my friends were still be able to go
to therapy, I was like, oh, I'm going to this random group at
the center on Lincoln Ave. And I just think showing up for
yourself is all you can really do.
And even that I was like, I'm still going to try and
(36:13):
navigating with my family. I do wish I had been able, you
know, I do have a regret. I do wish I had told them more
of what was really happening. But that's always hindsight is
2020 when you're in an unhealthyrelationship Because I was so
embarrassed by the way I acted, how needy I was, and also
because I was so needy of him, what I allowed.
Yeah, yeah. It's mortifying.
(36:35):
Yeah, yeah. And also, again, our
relationships do feel like an extension of our self, like they
kind of hold a mirror up to whatwe still like, our insecurities
and what we might want to work on or improve.
And so that can be like even more vulnerable than talking
about your own experience to think this is how this is
showing up and kind of manifesting in my life.
(36:55):
Yeah, and I was afraid too, of the person I protected, the
person that I had built up so much to my family.
My, my family loved him and I, Iwould just look like such a liar
if I told them the truth. So that's another thing I wasn't
ready for, for them for me to bequestioned.
I was. So I just didn't know who I was.
And I kept lying to everyone, including myself, that when it
(37:18):
all crumbled, I was like God. Yeah, yeah.
Who is this person? Who am I?
Shifting gears a little bit, you've talked a lot on your
platforms about struggling with IBS, and I would love to get
your perspective on this. Having also struggled with an
eating disorder because it adds like a whole other layer to the
puzzle, can make it really challenging to navigate physical
(37:39):
health issues when that is something that's in your
background. Can you speak to that a little
bit? Yeah, so I think ever since I
was like 15, I remember really struggling with, I know this
isn't going to be TMI because noone cares, but I struggled so
much with Constipation. And I remember that back then we
didn't know anything. We didn't have social media and
obviously water and fiber. But like I was, there was no
(38:01):
Instagram to be scrolling for recommendations either.
So I would like eat prunes and I'm like, these are not helping.
But I'm 15, and I would go to a gastroenterologist who they
specialize in, like, gastrointestinal disorders and
things like that. They were like, I mean, you're
young, you're healthy, you're fine.
This happened for five years. I would have chronic
(38:23):
Constipation, have severe bloating, and my stomach would
hurt so much. My lower abdomen would hurt so
much. I wouldn't go to that for days.
And no one cared. No one cared.
And then I got, you know, a colonoscopy, which is where they
checked for your colon health. They're like, it's cleared.
So really, what are you talking about?
And I think something that was also really frustrating is I
(38:44):
didn't understand how connected your gut is to your mental
health. And I didn't understand that
until I was doing mentally better and I was able to use the
restroom more. But between now having a more
regular restroom schedule, I hadto get Botox injections in my
(39:05):
anal and rectal muscles because they thought that would help me
loosen up. That's crazy.
I think it all makes sense now when we think about if you've
had a lot of stress, if you havea lot, if you've had a lot of
trauma, if you're like a very tense person, think about what
that does to your digestive system.
Yeah. And living in fight or flight
(39:27):
all these years, even since I was a kid, has changed the way
that my muscles and my body workwhen it comes to going to the
restroom. And it is so frustrating to
think that there isn't a magic pill.
There is not a food or a diet orthe amount of water or benefiber
or whatever you want to call it.Yoga, yes, sure, of course
(39:47):
lifestyle plays into it so much.But the distrust that I had
learned to have in my body sinceage 10 of having anorexia and
everything else that ensued in my life after that.
That caused all my Constipation,including genetics, of course,
and the food you eat. But really, it's so annoying how
(40:08):
it makes so much sense how much deeper it is.
And that's frustrating because you're like, so you're telling
me that my brain and how I feel about myself and healing all
this stuff is going to help my stomach.
You know, they're different organs.
You're so annoying. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's so
frustrating and it's also one ofthese things that we don't learn
(40:31):
about in health class. And I wish we had this awareness
because it's so empowering once we understand why we're doing
these things. I'm like a very type A logical
person, so I like to. Like Oh my God, we're so
different. I am the opposite of logic.
I am a cancer through and through.
For anyone who doesn't know astrology, I'm not like a big
believer in them but I do resonate.
Kids. Cancers are just so emotional.
(40:52):
I'm a Pisces so I don't. Know if it's spicy?
Pisces is that? Is that water though?
It's the last one of the year I think.
It's water. I like it so bad at
understanding these. OK, they're not important,
They're not real, I think anyway, but.
Yeah. Yeah, sorry.
Go ahead. No, you're good.
But like I like to like understand, like why these
things happen because then we can shift the behaviors.
(41:13):
Like the awareness can then leadto behavior change.
And in college, learning about everything that happens when
we're in fight or flight, I was like, Oh my God, it makes so
much sense. Like when you are in fight or
flight, like you have that stress response.
And there's the whole TikTok trend of like, I choose the bear
or like my body doesn't know thedifference between a bear and
opening an e-mail. Regardless of what the cause is,
(41:34):
when we have that response, our digestion stops because your
brain is like, I can't be digesting.
All my energy must be diverted to fighting or running away.
And so this is not important. So like, literally regardless of
the cause, and if you tell yourself it's fine, it doesn't
matter, I shouldn't be doing this, your digestion is still
stopped. And there's funny things too,
like we sweat so that we're moreslippery if a predator tries to
(41:58):
grab us. And like, isn't that crazy?
I was like, why aren't we told this?
Like, that's fascinating. And then we have more attention
and like, ability to see things better around us because it'd be
more effective to outrun and escape from a predator.
And like, there's more blood flow being directed to our
extremities to run and fight. Oh, why you're teaching.
Me so much. And it's like, you wouldn't know
(42:21):
that, right? Like you wouldn't, that's why we
feel light headed or like tingly.
And so even if you're like, it happened for one second, I was
stressed, I was anxious, and then you moved on.
It still takes time for your body to recover and course
correct from literally stopping digesting your food.
And we don't learn about this inhealth class, but it's something
that I think is so relevant in away that mental health shows up
(42:42):
for so many of us. I joke with so many of my other
girlfriends who do struggle withlike Constipation.
It's such a common thing. But unless I wake up and get to
like chill, drink my water, havemy matcha or my coffee and go to
the bathroom, if if I have to wake up and do something I'm
constipated for the next day. Like you have to wake up for a
(43:02):
meeting. My body, just my head feels
dissociated from my, the rest ofmy body.
And it's very frustrating because then when you're
constipated, you're in a really bad mood and you feel less
capable of the day. It affects your mental health so
much. So it's, it's really annoying
how if your mental health's not great, your gut's not great,
your gut's not great, your mental health isn't great.
(43:25):
And I, I realized that that justmeans that I really have to work
on like self soothing more and breathing.
But girl, like sometimes it's like I can't change my body
though I don't know what. I don't know how to get out of
fight or flight. Honestly.
Even when my boyfriend will say guess what?
I go, Oh my God, no, I'm always,he says.
(43:47):
You always expect the worst. It's a learned experience
though, like you learn to to expect the worst.
Yeah, there's no good after. Guess what?
It's so true I'm. Like, Oh no.
I wanted to also get your thoughts on like the body image,
body acceptance, body positivity, various movements
(44:08):
because I do think we're seeing a shift in all of these that's
been very prominent, I think forboth of us, like growing up and
going from like more diet culture to then it was like body
positivity, then we had body acceptance and there's body
neutrality. Like there's all these different
ways that as a society we're approaching this conversation.
And I would love to get your thoughts because I think it's
(44:30):
really nuanced, especially when it's not just like we'd like to
have a better relationship with my body, but it's like, no,
you've actively struggled and had that negative relationship
and that's what you revert to. Oh, well, right now it's 2025
and the trend is back to, you know, being tiny and thin.
And I've talked to my girlfriends about this, that it
(44:54):
affects me. Yeah, for sure.
One, because obviously, like, I do post things online and, you
know, it's my face or things like that.
And I just think with social media, we look at other people
and then when we, like, go and take a selfie of ourselves,
we're so used to looking at a screen and seeing others that we
take it. We're like kind of think I was
(45:14):
going to look like that. We expect and.
Even photos like that's not whatwe look like.
Like the iPhone lens is not whatyou look like in real life.
So like, we're so distorted. No, exactly.
And I think that anyone who has really struggled with body
dysmorphia knows this or gets toa point where you allow yourself
(45:36):
to have those feelings because they're there.
And when I have them, I do talk to either my girlfriend, my
partner, my boyfriend Stone, or my therapist because I have to
get it out because my desire is not to give in to them.
And what I mean by not giving tothem is I don't want to start
eating less. I don't want to start forcing
(45:58):
myself to work out more. I don't want to be tempted to do
anything that causes me to give in disordered behaviors.
But deep down, what I like to yes, that is why I vocalize
them. Because when I was 10 years old,
it was like I was playing a game.
The smaller I became, the bonierI became, the smaller the number
(46:19):
was. I felt very proud of that and my
binge eating was such a failure because I have worked really
hard to stop feeling like the feeling of fullness was a
failure. I felt like fullness meant I did
something bad. And I remember the other day one
of my girlfriends was like, oh, you know, the best feeling is
(46:39):
after a meal you just can lay and you're so full.
And I was like, whoa, that's so wild that you say that because
I'm still working on that. Like, girl, I love eating, but
feeling full and having to unbutton my pants, although
physically relieving, there's something in my heart and in my
chest that goes, what did I do? And when that voice comes up, I
(47:00):
talk to it. I go, you're good, it's all
right. So for me, the feelings don't go
away and the desires don't go away.
But my instincts have changed. I don't run and do anything
about it. I go good.
Good for you for not falling into that.
Like we're fine, we've changed, we're fine.
Yeah, it goes back to that, thatchoice point that we all have.
(47:21):
Like you can always make the decision to continue down the
path and make it worse and be ineffective.
But you can also choose to just sit with it and do nothing or
sit with it and maybe like make a more positive choice.
And you always have that option,which is really empowering.
That's also the, a lot of a lot of people, especially my
girlfriends will come to me for advice when it comes to dating.
(47:43):
You know, they're like this is the right guy or like, I think
this is kind of a red flag. And of course I'll have my
opinion. You know, I think that's what me
as a girlfriend, I do pride myself in being honest, but I
never tell them what to do because obviously I always chose
wrong before. And I would say, Oh my God, you
can totally choose them for the next 7 years.
I totally support that because Idid that or you could not
(48:04):
because you don't think this is a good thing.
But like, you can choose and there's really no wrong because
there's a lot of life experiencethat goes with choosing the
wrong thing too. And it's not objectively wrong,
but it's not going to push you into the life that you know you
want for yourself. And I think that happened so
much with dating where we asked for advice.
(48:24):
But like, we're not going to do the thing that's healthy.
And that's OK. Come on.
It's a story as long as it's notlike really dangerous, you know
what I mean? But like, that's why I have
stories. That's even why I'm on a
podcast, right? Like if I hadn't made a lot of,
I hadn't made a lot of of reallyunhealthy decisions.
I have nothing to share and I don't think that's a good thing,
(48:46):
but that's how I choose to look at it at the end of all of it.
Yeah, but also our ability to like, relate and empathize with
each other's experiences and understand other suffering.
Like, we wouldn't be able to do that if we hadn't had those
moments. And that's so empowering as
well. It's my favorite thing, like
when I meet people who have gonethrough stuff and have chosen
themselves, and there's a difference between trauma
(49:07):
bonding and genuinely connectingwith people who have lived
experience and are encouraging you to and inspiring you to keep
moving forward. Those are the coolest
friendships. I'm really grateful to keep
meeting like people like you andothers who have been through
some shit because it's like, I know you see me and I like it.
Yeah. And you also know that going to
(49:29):
them for support, you're going to get that response.
Hope not always, but. Like you won't.
Hopefully hit that wall of like,no, we don't feel that way, we
don't do that thing. Absolutely not.
Hopefully you'll get a little bit more grace because they've
been there too. That's right.
If people want to continue the conversation and continue to
hear about your journey, your experiences, everything
(49:49):
happening, where can they do that?
You can all find me if you just type in Kelly U, the letter U to
like any web browser, Instagram,TikTok.
I am launching a new podcast coming soon.
So you can check my channel, allmy socials for that.
But I also do have a podcast that I used to do it's called
therapy Thursday with Kelly U, where I talk a lot about the
(50:11):
things we talked about here. And yeah, there was a lot of
great things coming, but you have to follow me to see it.
And I just hope that you feel seen and heard when you see my
content. And all I ever want is for when
people, the things that I post for them to be able to reflect
on themselves and feel more connected to themselves.
You know, yes, I'm the one posting, but I really hope that
you feel more connected to you at the end of it all.
(50:33):
Yeah, and there's something so cool where when you find a post
that speaks to your experience and there's so many likes and so
many comments, you're like, Oh my God, people get that like.
That's one of the best. Parts about social media that we
haven't had in the past be like,there's thousands of people that
have had this exact same thought.
It's really, really cool. I think something that recently
reminded me of that was I share a lot about my past relationship
(50:55):
with my ex, but I've protected him a lot.
I never get into the really bad things or the details because
frankly, I don't think that they're even appropriate for
social media. You know, it's like, and I
recently shared something where I said all these statements that
he had actually said to me, which are absolutely insane.
And his aunt had actually comment on it and she said maybe
(51:18):
it's time to move on and let go or let go and move on.
And that really messed me up fora few days.
And I was sitting at this exact same desk.
I'm talking to you right now. And sometimes I just make video
journals for myself to process it because sometimes I feel like
thinking versus talking out loud.
I process it better when I pretend I'm talking to someone
(51:39):
else. Totally.
So I just set the camera up. I looked, I was just wearing a
hoodie and glasses and I was like telling talking what
happened and I was like so embarrassed that it affected me
a lot. But I also in the video was
saying to myself, I'm not not over it.
But this is also just a part of healing.
And so much like I I do strugglewith this and I showed it to my
(52:02):
friend and I was like, that's soembarrassing.
But I'm not going to post that like no one will care.
It'll seem really like self absorbent and the amount of of
responses that I got to that video, it was heartbreaking to
know that so many people have been invalidated when someone
says you just move on and let goor they have been bullied online
(52:24):
by their ex or their ex's family.
And that was shocking actually, because me, I think I'm not
unique, but I felt like this is probably just me where I'm
feeling really embarrassed that the family is calling me out and
saying what's wrong with you? Like he's totally moved on.
You're a loser. And I think the more we do that,
(52:46):
not even sharing it online just to someone else like helps you
let it go a bit and feel affirmed.
Yeah, like this the other thing about like mental health that
I'm like, it's so frustrating because our emotions tell us to
do the opposite of what's effective and shame calls us to.
Withdraw. And so it's like, if only you do
like literally the exact opposite of what your brain is
body that is telling you to do, the emotion will shift.
(53:07):
And whether that's to yourself, whether that's to a camera,
maybe it's a journal, maybe it'sa friend, family member,
therapist, when that shame comesup, that's the best thing you
can do. And it's so effective in helping
you move through the experience.Because when we avoid it, it
just amplifies and becomes even more over.
And then we do these behaviors that are ineffective and all the
things. And, and for anyone listening,
(53:28):
there's no shame in doing all the behaviors.
Yeah, do what you need to do until you are ready to change.
I was not ready to change until I was like 26.
That's when I got a relationship.
That's when I decided to get sober.
And I'd been struggling since like 15 years old.
So there's no timeline either. If you're older than me, you'll
(53:51):
know when you're ready. And if you're not ready, find
someone to push you to get ready.
Yeah, yeah, 100%. Well, this was such a great
conversation. Thank you so much for joining
me. Thank you.
Welcome to Sheep Assisted, the Gen.
Z mental health podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton.
Let's get into it. What I hope most people get out
of this is I have not perfectly figured it all out, but I love
being on the healing journey. I think when I was younger I
always wanted things to just be finished, but I think there's a
lot of joy that I found and connection with people because I
(00:23):
struggle. Might sound weird, but I kind of
love it. Hello you guys and welcome back
to Sheep Assisted. I am so excited to hear today we
have a really vulnerable conversation that touches on so
many topics that I know all you guys can relate to.
Whether it's struggling with your mental health at a young
age and how that can be really challenging to navigate, to
(00:43):
struggling to feel seen in your relationship with family members
and especially when you're struggling with mental health
challenges. We talk about self esteem, sort
of eating, relationships, addiction, literally everything
in this conversation and I know you guys will absolutely adore
it. Guest today is Kelly Ochima.
She is a passionate Asian American mental health advocate
(01:04):
and Wellness content creator. She's been super authentic and
open about her experiences with mental health, IBS, sobriety,
relationships, all of the above.And we really touch on all those
areas throughout this episode. And so I know you guys will
relate to some aspect, if not all of this conversation.
You can find Kelly on all socialplatforms at at Kelly U.
(01:24):
And without further ado, let's dive in.
Well, thank you so much for joining me on Sheep Assisted
today. Kelly, I'm so excited to have
you on the show and hear all about your experience.
I think this is an episode that will resonate with a lot of
listeners, especially Gen. Z, because we are being more
open and transparent about struggling body image and eating
disorders are disordered eating,as well as things like IBS.
(01:46):
I feel like it's my whole TikTokfeed.
So it's definitely something where we're in it together and
I'm really excited to dive into your story and advice.
Oh, Sadie, that's so nice. And I really love, you know, I'm
actually flattered that you say this is for the Gen.
Z because I am a millennial. But I feel like even though I'm
31, I feel like I'm in my early 20s.
(02:07):
And as we keep talking, I think anyone listening will start to
realize maybe why I feel like a lot of my 20s were really robbed
from me by my experiences and truly by myself.
Like, my life was very miserablebefore.
I'll say that. I was struggling so much with
eating disorder. I was in an abusive narcissistic
(02:28):
relationship. I was not getting along with my
family. I really didn't like myself and
struggled with anxiety, depression.
I really clung to anything that helped me to not like myself.
I was an addict. So I'm really excited to kind of
dive through all of that. And I think what I hope most
people get out of this is I havenot perfectly figured it all
(02:50):
out, but I love being on the healing journey.
I think when I was younger, I always wanted things to just be
finished. I was so tired of living and
suffering. But I think there's a lot of joy
that I found and connection withpeople because I struggle.
It might sound weird, but I kindof love it, yeah.
(03:11):
No, I, I completely agree. And I, we talked about this on
the podcast last week. Whereas when you're in the
journey, the destination is really motivating because the
journey is so painful and challenging and it's.
All. Consuming exactly.
And then once you've been to thedestination once, regardless of
(03:32):
kind of like what area of life that is in the journey can be
somewhat more motivating becauseyou know, there's light on the
other side. But when we were going through
it for the first time, it is such a hopeless, demoralizing
experience because even though you're told like it gets better,
things will change. It's possible to shift these
things. You don't have that lived
experience, that proof doesn't exist for your within your
(03:53):
context and and memories. And so that can be really
challenging in the moment. I would love to go back to a
couple of these things that you mentioned in your 20s.
A lot of listeners are in that age demographic and struggling
with these things, whether it's relationships or behaviors that
they want to shift away from their own internal self-image,
(04:13):
self esteem. It's something that we are
really do all struggle to develop and come to terms with
in these like early adulthood years.
We can kind of go through all ofit or some of it, but I would
love to hear the advice, the insights, the wisdom that you
wish you would have had at that point in your life that you have
learned throughout those experiences.
(04:36):
It would probably be best to tackle 1 by 1.
I mean, I think this all really started for me, my struggles
when I was 10 years old. And I think a lot of us realize,
oh, when we're 20s and 30s and we're in a bad relationship or
have a bad relationship with ourselves, we're like, oh, this
started when I was a kid. And like, how is that possible?
And for me, I became anorexic atthe age of 10.
(04:59):
And I really did think it was about the food and being made
fun of for being chubby by this boy at school that I really
liked. And of course, sure, as gals and
as humans, we feel very insecureabout the way people perceive
us. But when I was 19, I started
going to therapy for my binge eating.
And I told my therapist, hey, I'm only here because I struggle
(05:19):
with binge eating and something's wrong with me.
I need you to help fix this problem.
And I think this was in our second session where she went,
so what's your relationship likewith your dad?
And I was so offended. I said, what does that have to
do with it? It's.
Off the table. In here and even though I had a
very, very tenuous relationship with my dad, I felt really
(05:41):
protective of him and my family.You know, I grew up where there
was a lot of fighting between mom and dad, very chaotic.
I felt like they didn't even like each other.
And my sister and I felt like wewere the mediators and the
therapists. But my parents always said I
love you to us and each other and we hugged and we affirmed
each other. So in my mind we were fine.
(06:02):
But I knew there was a lot of toxicity underneath it all and I
didn't want her to drum all thatup, mostly because I had not
even realized half of it. And I I realized that I only
knew a certain way of life whereit was numbing, numbing my
feelings, tuning out. And I found every way possible
to do that. I had eating disorders, I had
(06:24):
depression, anxiety. And then in my 20s, I became
really addicted to smoking weed every single day.
I am sober for your sober. And I know sometimes that's a
hot take and saying you're soberfrom smoking weed, but really
you can become sober from any anything because being addicted
to something means that you are using it to not feel things, to
(06:44):
deal with things, and you use itto deal with things because you
actually can't deal with a real thing.
And over the years, I've really tried my hardest to involve my
parents in trying to explain my struggles to them.
And thank God they have actuallybeen receptive.
But there was a time when we didn't talk for a long time, for
(07:05):
about a year, a year or two. And I didn't want to be
associated with either of them because I felt like we were all
telling each other lies. And I think that happens a lot
in families where we just want to get along with the family
system. Yet we have all these underlying
feelings and we feel like our parents are not going to be able
to deal with them, which is almost always the sad truth.
And some advice I wish I had, You know, my therapist helped me
(07:29):
kind of set boundaries, but I wish I knew that regardless if
they did turn around or not, I had to do what I needed to do in
order to make peace with them. Whether it be not talking to
them ever again because that would mean I'd have more peace
or really getting into The Dirty, yucky screaming, yelling
(07:49):
conversations and telling them my truths, which is what I ended
up doing. And it's not easy.
And no one, you never know what the outcome is going to be.
And I think we just have to do it for ourselves.
There's two things that I want to touch on there. 1 is this
experience of struggling at a really young age, because I
think a lot of listeners in Gen.Z will share this experience
(08:11):
where we have these really big emotions.
We really truly are struggling with big mental health
challenges. And the way that we're coping
with those can also be brilliant, effective and ADD and
kind of exacerbate those mental health challenges.
And I remember when I was depressed and anxious and even
though there were these externalmarkers that like things weren't
(08:32):
right, I was possibleized or struggling with self harm or had
doctors being like, this got to work on this, This isn't right.
This isn't normal. There's still that like
perception that you can't feel that level of distress at that
age. Like if you're in elementary
school or middle school, it's like what?
Like there's always like confusion that at that age, that
level of dysfunction and distress and overwhelm isn't
(08:55):
possible. And it's crazy because I even
noticed it myself now where I'llsee people the age that I was
when I was struck with my mentalhealth.
And I'm like, there's no way. Like, how is that possible?
But it's a common experience forso many.
And it can be even more isolating and alienating because
then you're hearing like, I shouldn't feel this way and I'm
wrong for having these experiences.
And especially as a young adult,as a child, you're like, I
(09:18):
haven't experienced enough that would justify these emotions or
behaviors or whatever it is. And so I'd love to kind of hear
about your experience there struggling at such a young age
in such a big way, because that is something that a lot of
people find to be really isolating or misunderstood and
get invalidated on a large scale.
This is one of my biggest fears when I think about having kids.
(09:40):
I remember going to school and Iwas like, how am I supposed to
study and do homework and have to get good grades when my home
life is miserable and I'm not eating and I'm starving and I'm
fuzzy headed and I just want to watch TV and I just want to
binge eat. I'm like, I worry because I know
now at an adult age I can make sense of it all.
(10:00):
I'm like, OK, I just have to work to make sure.
Like I can keep living. But that frustrates me too.
Like I still feel like a kid sometimes where it's ridiculous
that we have to balance all all these spinning plates.
So I think about my gosh, me thinking of having to send my
child to school where they have to do assignments and like I
know they need to for socialization, but just knowing
(10:21):
that a child is responsible for so much.
And the pressure that's put on them or they put on themselves,
even if you're affirming like welove you regardless, your
identity is not tied to this. It's so hard.
Right. And for parents who are not self
aware like my parents were back then, even if they told me it's
not your job to help me talk through issues with dad or mom,
(10:45):
I'm hearing it either from your lips or from like the next room.
Even though you've closed it. I can hear, I can feel.
And even if I don't hear it whenyou come back into the room, I
feel the energy has dropped, thetemperature has changed.
And I think a lot of us humans become very hyper vigilant
because we are very much absorbing the energies of our
(11:08):
family or even kids around us. But we feel really powerless.
And I had a big sense of powerlessness as a kid.
So I wanted to figure out a way to be empowered in my life.
And I felt really powerful by being able to control eating,
not eating, being stuck in my anxiety over exercising.
There were so many ways where I was like, I need to be powerful
(11:30):
in some kind of way because I feel very powerless.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's somethingthat is so challenging and I
think increasingly is an issue of this level of autonomy and
not even like, do you have power?
It's like, do the steps that youtake have an impact on the
outcome? And I think as a young adult,
(11:52):
that is something that we lack both on like an individual
level. Like, do I feel like I can get
through this anxiety or stress or argument?
Do I feel emotionally adept there?
But also on like a larger scale,we have these widespread mental
health issues, and the academic pressures are so extreme, and
there's politics and climate change.
So that level of hopelessness and almost like being paralyzed
(12:17):
by inability to do anything different can be really
distressing. I even feel now, you know, I'm
still in therapy. I've been going to therapy on
and off since I was 19 years old.
And I was just talking to my therapist about, for example,
like a big struggle right now I'm dealing with is when I
receive a compliment, I am terrified of receiving it.
(12:39):
And she helped me realize why. Now, if any of you have
narcissistic people in your family or if you've been in a
relationship with the narcissist, which I have had,
both those types of people require unconditional love and
respect and admiration and affirmation.
Even when they do a lot of things that prove that they are
(13:01):
not deserving of it or they havebetrayed you, yet you are still
required to give them that love,admiration, and respect.
And for me, my biggest fear is once I receive it, that's like
narcissistic, like how could youbelieve that you are good or you
are anything? And it's so interesting that
even with all of this knowledge that I have, there's this
(13:23):
underlying fear of, I want them to stop being narcissistic.
So I'm going to show them that you don't need these
compliments. It's like I'm still trying to
undo things based on my behavior.
But then that becomes really self-destructive.
And you would think you're not akid anymore, you're not a
teenager or more, you're not in that relationship anymore.
You should be happy. I'm in such a happy place in my
life and I have a great relationship and I've great
(13:44):
friends and I have a career thatI like.
So much of those roots still affect me.
But now I think, thank goodness I can see them for what it is.
What I think that's helpful for people to know in their journey
is like, no one's got it figuredout.
And that's really annoying actually.
I would hate when people said that.
I was like, wait, so you're telling me all of the suffering,
(14:07):
I'm not going to be perfect, butthere's a beauty in that because
at least you can choose. You choose not to give into the
coping strategies and mechanismsthat are really unhealthy.
Like I actually decide not to fall into pits of my addiction
and binge eating and self loathing.
I choose to go out in the sun. I choose to go for a walk.
I choose to call a friend. I choose to get a yummy treat
(14:29):
and not feel bad about it. There's choices and there's a
lot of freedom there. I love that you mentioned that
because I posted a TikTok a couple weeks ago and I was with
my mental health rules and one of them I said if you're not
progressing you're regressing because for me if I go on
autopilot it's not good. Like I.
Autopilot. That's a great way.
Yeah, that's awesome. Not like, not like.
(14:51):
That's good. That's the way you're viewing,
yes. Yeah, yeah.
Like if you have that backgroundand that context and that
history of coping and effectively or speaking to
yourself in a really negative way or not showing up in your
relationships vulnerably and, and setting boundaries
correctly, autopilot isn't a good thing.
And so for me, if I'm always focused on like, OK, how am I
moving? Like the idiots bittiest baby
(15:12):
step in the right direction and just don't make things worse.
And then I know that I'm in the progression, not the regression
box. And everyone was like, that's
such a toxic mindset. Like you just have to like be as
is. And what you're saying is like,
you can be as is, but you're making that choice and that's
moving you in the right direction, which is so
incredibly powerful and positiveand empowering.
(15:32):
But then I think the frustratingpart that I get asked a lot and
I would ask people who were doing more mentally well than
me, I'd be like, yes, but how you're not telling me how you
did it and how I did it was hitting rock bottom.
And that's not what I recommend.It's not something that I think
everyone should do, but I think that really is the cycle of life
(15:54):
sometimes where unless there's aconsequence to the way you're
living your life, why change it?If I was able to smoke weed and
not feel feelings I wasn't readyfor, then I wasn't ready for it.
I stayed in that abusive relationship for almost 7 years
because I until I hit a certain point where it got so
(16:17):
unbelievably insane. Then I was ready to make a
choice. And I truly believe for at least
myself that until I was ready tobe alone, which was the scariest
thing of all time, and to not have any of my numbing
strategies, I couldn't do it. I wasn't strong enough.
You know, there is a strength insurvival, but there's a lot of
strength in building the self-confidence to then deal
(16:40):
with the fallout. The fallout of losing all the
things that are unhealthy for you.
You don't feel better, you actually feel worse because
you're now in the most uncomfortable place you've ever
been. We have no distractions that are
chaotic. I'm not having a fight with my
partner, I'm not not talking to my mom.
I'm not binging and recovering. Now I just have to sit with
(17:03):
myself and feel the things I've been avoiding and now go to
therapy once or twice a week andend some friendships and feel
like I'm a loser and picking myself back up.
That's at least how I did it. Now how do you get out of the
slums is proving to yourself that you can live in this
unknown place. Because in the unknown is where
(17:27):
you finally start to think, whatdo I want to be?
How do I want to feel? Who am I?
How did I get here? You learn the lessons by not
having all of the distractions and all the toxicity that that
is a sucky place, but that's howyou start.
Yeah, I really like what you mentioned about why we do these
(17:48):
things and why these we keep these ineffective and unhealthy
things in our life. And I think that was one of my
favorite parts of being in therapy was like truly
understanding why I was engagingin these behaviors or why these
relationship challenges kept showing up.
And we do things for a reason, right?
Like a lot of the times it's like, I don't know why I'm
making these choices. I don't know why I can't just do
the thing that will make me feelbetter.
(18:08):
But we're meeting a need. Like we're coping with this
thing because the emotion is toodistressing to tolerate.
We don't trust ourselves to sit with it.
We don't feel safe being alone. And so understanding that like
we're doing these things for a reason.
And how can you more effectivelyget that need met?
And it really is like you mentioned that almost like
addiction model where it's like you start with fun and then it's
(18:30):
fun with problems and then it's just problems.
And at some point, it's like thecons are outweighing the pros
and you just for whatever like line in the sand that is, you
start to make that shift becauseit's no longer sustainable to
continue with those unhealthy things in your life.
Even though they've served a purpose and they've saved you or
helped you or whatever it is they helped get you through.
(18:52):
The cons are outweighing the pros.
And don't get me wrong, I missedthe highs.
Like not just from a substance, but like, do you think being
sober all the time is really fun?
No. Do you think that being in a
really peaceful, healthy relationship that's always calm
is exhilarating? Not really.
I had to change the way I viewedhappiness and dopamine and
(19:17):
serotonin because the way I got that was us fighting really bad
and hitting each other and then calling each other back and
making up or getting high and then not being high, then
getting high again. I, I don't love not having all
of that adrenaline, but I do love who I am because I no
longer have those things. Like it's not the funnest life,
(19:39):
but it is the happiest life thatI have now.
And because I don't have all those highs to cling on to, I
realize, Oh my gosh, going outside and meeting up with
friends and being in the sun anddoing all these other activities
brings so much joy. But I was not used to enjoying
peaceful connected things because when I was doing all my
other coping mechanisms, I couldnot connect with myself or other
(20:02):
people. So you know, I always thought I
can't wait to be sober and in happy relationship and get along
with my family. It is also uncomfortable to have
everything you've ever wanted. You just got to keep allowing
yourself to receive the positivity and like the fruits
of your labor. And that's uncomfortable too
(20:24):
because you're like, am I even deserving of this?
Where's the mess? Let me go clean a mess up.
Where is it? Yeah, 100%.
I would love to get your thoughts on being addicted to
these various like relationshipsor behaviors or outlets, because
I think this is something that alot of us struggle with and
it's, I don't know if it's more prominent in Gen.
(20:45):
Z, but it definitely seems like a more increasingly common
behavior than we've seen historically, whether it's with
TikTok or nicotine is out of control.
It's crazy. We do sometimes see this with
drinking or weed like you mentioned, but I think also a
lot in our relationship dynamics, other unhealthy ways
of coping. Maybe it's disordered eating or
(21:06):
even just the way that we're relating to the thing, right?
A lot of it is that mentality oflike, am I using this to avoid?
Am I using using this to be ableto tolerate the stress that
otherwise I couldn't? And so I'd kind of love to get
your thoughts there on like being addicted to things that
we're not chemically addicted to, but it can really derail our
lives because it's an ineffective relationship.
(21:26):
I would say I was. I used to be the most
codependent person on this earth.
I was addicted to someone lovingme and I think I had a lot of
issue with not knowing if I really loved the other person.
Like I was so desperate for a guy to like me and affirm me and
view me as special. That's what made me like them.
(21:49):
And that's really sad to know that I didn't even know myself
enough to be able to deeply connect and my sense of self was
so fragile. Like if they called me or texted
me or if they decided to stay with me, if they cheated on me,
if they came back, if they cheated on me, even my first
boyfriend when I was 15 years old, this kid, we he was like a
skater boy and I was so in love with him, right?
(22:10):
We even had the same birthday, June 29th.
No, it was seriously fate, right?
And this was some like punk, like pop music was really in.
So we'd like sit with our headphones after school and like
sharing music together. And then, you know, there was a
rumor going around that there was like this underclassmen,
like a new freshman that he had a crush on.
(22:31):
And I was like, Nah, man. And I was so embarrassed because
it turned out that everyone knewthat like, they were having a
thing. And one day he literally just
stopped talking to me. And for the next three years of
high school, he looked through me like I was dead.
Like, we're in the same homeroomevery single day the next three
years. And that really set a pattern
that coincided with like my family life.
(22:54):
My one of my parents was codependent, one of them was
narcissistic. And for me, I was just like,
hey, as long as someone likes me, that's good enough, as long
as they're not treating me really badly.
But then I ended up going into another relationship that was
really codependent. And then my longest one where
that person was a narcissist. And because the abuse was
(23:15):
different than what I saw, I thought I could take it.
And I didn't think cheating was the worst thing.
I didn't think that emotional manipulation was the worst thing
because I thought we were in love.
And for me, being in a relationship with my incredible
partner. Now we've been together for
almost three years. He is such a safe place.
He is kind, loving, so interesting, so brilliant, hard
(23:37):
working. But I told my therapist a few
months ago I was like, I'm like a little bored.
And I felt really guilty becausehalf of me has always wanted
just a great person, really great.
And it's not that he's boring. I'm not getting any of the highs
(23:58):
and lows and whiplash. Like, I don't get me wrong, I
didn't like it, but I love it. Yeah.
There's a part of me that's not being fed.
And so I have to find ways to still be engaged in this
relationship and see it for whatit is.
And I still have to change. I still have to notice when I'm
wanting something crazy to happen or me thinking that I
(24:19):
need to have, like, other peopleto talk to.
Like I start thinking, oh, am I going to start doing bad things
and doing things that might hurthim?
No. But do I think about it
sometimes? Yes, because there's just no
chaos and I would never want to hurt him.
But those are those feelings that I think a lot of people
feel ashamed for. And I even saying those now,
(24:39):
it's like, I only feel safe enough to tell you them because
I've worked through them and I don't do any of those things.
And even telling my girlfriends,I'd be like, hey, guys, if any,
you know, I talked to only ones who have been married, like in
long term relationships, I say, hey, does anyone else like think
of other people sometimes like, yeah, you just don't do it.
I was like, OK, OK, cool. But I felt so guilty and you
(25:01):
just have to catch yourself. And I'm not saying to yourself
you're in trouble, just go huh? That just makes sense because of
the life I've lived and I need to choose differently because I
like my life. Why would I fuck it up?
Yeah, Yeah. You mentioned something earlier
in our discussion that I want tocircle back to because it's one
of the most common things that Ihear from listeners, which is
(25:21):
that parents are not responding effectively or well to mental
health challenges. And I think this, I don't know
if it is more challenging when you're like at home or when
you're for the first time not athome and you have so much more
autonomy and you're like, I really wish that relationship
was different or I now have the official space to be able to
really unpack that dynamic. What are your thoughts there on
(25:44):
not getting the response that you would want to or not feeling
seen or heard but also really needing that support when you're
struggling with your mental health in a big way?
When I was a freshman in college, I remember calling my
mom and saying hey, I'm really struggling with depression.
Like I'm not doing well. I really want to see a
(26:05):
therapist. I know I'm on your insurance.
Like would it be OK if I find one in network?
And she was terrified. I mean her voice completely
changed and she started soundingreally really sad.
And I understand where she was coming from because she is
Chinese, my dad's Japanese, and there's no discussion of mental
(26:26):
health. But specifically for her and my
dad, my mom had. They both had a daughter before
my older sister and me. And she actually died at three
months of SIDS. That's called sudden infant
death syndrome. So she just fell, she fell
asleep for a nap and just never woke up.
There's no reason for it. Even the doctor said that Asian
girls are the least likely to die from this.
(26:50):
So in her mind she immediately was frozen and thought please
don't like kill yourself basically.
And I felt really bad for her, but at the same time I was
infuriated because she wasn't hearing me.
Yeah. And I just really had to decide
I'm still going to I'm going to go to therapy.
So at least can I get your OK todo this.
(27:10):
But my parents were so afraid ofme getting on antidepressants.
They were so afraid of me unearthing things.
They hated me addressing them and confronting them with my
feelings about them, their relationship, how we were
raised, how the family was. They weren't ready for that, and
I think it was honestly until like 10 years later, they were
ready for really, really direct conversations.
(27:32):
And actually my parents ended upseparating as a result of that.
They started to admit to themselves they had messed up in
certain ways. They also forgave themselves.
And we've all now been able to function as a family where we
all tell the truth. And I just felt like our family
is full of lies just because we don't know anything different.
We're just trying to get by. And I think it's really hard
(27:53):
when your parents don't see whatyou see.
I think it's more than just wishing your family was healthy
and functional. It's more of a feeling of, can
you just believe me? Yeah.
That's one of the hardest thingsin my life of even having been
in an abusive relationship. That person and their family, I,
(28:14):
I don't know to this day, but atleast when I left, they did not
believe me. They felt like I was dramatic or
causing problems by telling the truth.
And that's how my family felt too, for a long time.
So I really felt like I was on this lonely little island by
myself. And the only person who really
saw me was my therapist. And then of course, when you're
(28:35):
surrounded by toxic people or narcissists, I often question
myself, am I just narcissistic? Am I the problem?
And of course, obviously narcissistician people don't ask
themselves that. But I did also have to own that.
I had a lot of parts in the toxicity, whether it was playing
my specific role in the family system.
Like for a long time I was just like acting this way.
(28:57):
But then I became the black sheep because I finally was
myself. And I think that happened in my
relationship too, where I my when we broke up, I said I can't
live in this false reality you live in anymore.
So the hard part is you have to stick to your gut and that will
often alienate you from people, but it'll bring you to the
people that are meant to be in your life.
Like you will have a much more happy, fulfilling life if you
(29:19):
stop pretending. Yeah, yeah.
Having challenges with your family relationships and not
feeling seen and also not feeling like you see the same
thing as your parents, which areso challenging for over a
decade. I think so many people are
listening, can relate, but are also like, how do you be OK with
that? Because there's like some.
(29:40):
Like, how do you do family dinners and holidays?
Yeah, and just. Accept when you wish, you wish
it was different, right? Like you're taking the steps and
going to therapy and trying to have these conversations and,
and shift the dynamic. You, you want something better
for yourself and for your family.
And it's not happening for at least for like whatever period
of time. And so I'm curious how you
navigated that mentally. Personally, being like, this
(30:04):
really isn't where I want it to be.
It's not only not where I want it to be, but it's painful to
experience and probably has likeripple effects in other
relationships because our parents and our relationship
always has that effect. And I'm curious kind of how you
navigated that experience for those 10 years when there wasn't
that breakthrough and feeling like on the other side of those
challenges? Well, I definitely beat a dead
(30:25):
horse by sending many a e-mail and many attacks to both of my
parents, had tough conversationswith my sister and a lot of it
was just them feeling like why are you bringing all this up?
Why are you causing all these issues?
And every so often I would try and then I would get the same
response. And you know, sometimes I would
just sit at dinners and and holidays and just play my part.
(30:48):
And that is sometimes the easy way out where you're like, I
don't want to suffer and be rejected again.
So sometimes that feels like a self protective thing and other
times you're just stewing in, feeling stifled by that.
And I think the way that I was able to navigate that was these
were opportunities for me to build a relationship with
myself. That's what my therapist and I
(31:09):
often kept reiterating is you cannot change people, but this
is you shaping the rest of your life and every relationship
moving forward. So even though these
relationships are not where you want them to be right now, at
least you're being who you really are to them as long as it
feels safe, you know, not every family doesn't like scream at
(31:31):
you back and tells you to shut up.
You know, at least my parents just were kind of like, please
stop being annoying and bringingthings up, you know?
So I think that it's really hard, but you have to think
about yourself, which is tough because when you're just
surrounded by people that mean so much to you, you kind of just
see yourself as a reflection of them.
And it's really hard to start building your own life,
(31:53):
especially when you're young. I mean, when I was a teenage
years, my parents were really all I had.
So when they were annoyed by my bad mood and didn't think that I
had depression or ADHD or just got broken up with, they thought
I was just a really Moody teenager.
I believed it. Yeah, it's, it's really
challenging. And I think you haven't gone
(32:14):
through that phase where you areable to create your own identity
completely independent of your family dynamics.
And so it's really hard to have that full sense of self and form
your own opinions and understandwhat your values are independent
of those relationships because you really just haven't had the
opportunity. And it makes everything from a
(32:34):
mental health perspective so much more challenging.
And it's a privilege to be able to no longer live at home,
right? Like, I luckily went to college.
I was in a lot of debt, you know, paying for my own housing,
though, you know, after college,a lot of people, if they are
able to go, they do return home to save money.
And luckily, I went to College in a really small town,
(32:56):
Champaign, IL, so I could affordthe $495 rent after I graduated.
It's crazy to think that that's how much it was.
But back then that felt like a lot to me because I still had
debt from school and my housing,and I knew that it was best for
me to never move home. But most of my friends did.
And I felt envious because they could have saved so much money.
But I needed to be away from that to keep pursuing my
(33:20):
healing. But when I wasn't in my toxic
family dynamic with my family, Ifound another toxic dynamic by
clinging on to my ex-boyfriend where we had codependency.
I needed him so much. He needed me so much.
We both had anxiety, we both haddepression.
We felt like that's kind of whatbonded us because we felt like
our families didn't really understand.
(33:41):
But what I didn't understand wasthat although I was feeling
really loved and affirmed and cared for because he saw me, he
also was cheating on me and was very manipulative and had a lot
of dark parts of him that I always chose.
I chose to ignore. He would tell me things that he
(34:01):
thought and did and felt that terrified me, but I didn't.
I was not ready to lose what I needed.
I needed him because I didn't feel like I was anything without
him. And he had told me, you know,
you think anyone's ever going tolove you.
You think anyone's going to put up with you.
Like look at all I've done for you.
And there was a part of me that because I wasn't close to my
(34:22):
family, like he was all I had, Ididn't have any friends either.
I was not good at socializing until probably like a maybe like
my late 20s. Yeah, if you were back in that
position again where you were like, OK, I'm being independent,
I'm choosing not to go home to that home environment or you're
going to college and you're kindof embarking on this new chapter
(34:43):
with the context that, like, you'd struggled with your mental
health, family relationships weren't that like resource that
you wish they were. How would you have approached
those relationship dynamics or setting yourself up for success
in that completely new context differently with everything that
you know now? Honestly, I wouldn't change
anything because I think anyone in these positions, we're just
(35:06):
like trying to survive and financially we really don't have
anything. I started going to therapy
because my college offered threefree sessions at the counseling
center. And for anyone listening, even
though you're not at college, there are free drop in groups
whether they be virtual through a Zoom, even like group meetings
for codependency for addiction. I did all of that.
(35:28):
I would go to a $5 drop in Groupfor eaters Anonymous in Chicago.
And if you couldn't afford $5, you could still go.
And for a while when I couldn't afford the co-pays for my
insurance because it's still insane.
Even if you have insurance, insurance does not mean it's
free. I would just go to these free
groups or do them through my phone or on Zoom.
(35:50):
Those are the things that I, I encourage everyone to do because
therapy is often such a privileged thing to recommend.
And I know because when my friends were still be able to go
to therapy, I was like, oh, I'm going to this random group at
the center on Lincoln Ave. And I just think showing up for
yourself is all you can really do.
And even that I was like, I'm still going to try and
(36:13):
navigating with my family. I do wish I had been able, you
know, I do have a regret. I do wish I had told them more
of what was really happening. But that's always hindsight is
2020 when you're in an unhealthyrelationship Because I was so
embarrassed by the way I acted, how needy I was, and also
because I was so needy of him, what I allowed.
Yeah, yeah. It's mortifying.
(36:35):
Yeah, yeah. And also, again, our
relationships do feel like an extension of our self, like they
kind of hold a mirror up to whatwe still like, our insecurities
and what we might want to work on or improve.
And so that can be like even more vulnerable than talking
about your own experience to think this is how this is
showing up and kind of manifesting in my life.
(36:55):
Yeah, and I was afraid too, of the person I protected, the
person that I had built up so much to my family.
My, my family loved him and I, Iwould just look like such a liar
if I told them the truth. So that's another thing I wasn't
ready for, for them for me to bequestioned.
I was. So I just didn't know who I was.
And I kept lying to everyone, including myself, that when it
(37:18):
all crumbled, I was like God. Yeah, yeah.
Who is this person? Who am I?
Shifting gears a little bit, you've talked a lot on your
platforms about struggling with IBS, and I would love to get
your perspective on this. Having also struggled with an
eating disorder because it adds like a whole other layer to the
puzzle, can make it really challenging to navigate physical
(37:39):
health issues when that is something that's in your
background. Can you speak to that a little
bit? Yeah, so I think ever since I
was like 15, I remember really struggling with, I know this
isn't going to be TMI because noone cares, but I struggled so
much with Constipation. And I remember that back then we
didn't know anything. We didn't have social media and
obviously water and fiber. But like I was, there was no
(38:01):
Instagram to be scrolling for recommendations either.
So I would like eat prunes and I'm like, these are not helping.
But I'm 15, and I would go to a gastroenterologist who they
specialize in, like, gastrointestinal disorders and
things like that. They were like, I mean, you're
young, you're healthy, you're fine.
This happened for five years. I would have chronic
(38:23):
Constipation, have severe bloating, and my stomach would
hurt so much. My lower abdomen would hurt so
much. I wouldn't go to that for days.
And no one cared. No one cared.
And then I got, you know, a colonoscopy, which is where they
checked for your colon health. They're like, it's cleared.
So really, what are you talking about?
And I think something that was also really frustrating is I
(38:44):
didn't understand how connected your gut is to your mental
health. And I didn't understand that
until I was doing mentally better and I was able to use the
restroom more. But between now having a more
regular restroom schedule, I hadto get Botox injections in my
(39:05):
anal and rectal muscles because they thought that would help me
loosen up. That's crazy.
I think it all makes sense now when we think about if you've
had a lot of stress, if you havea lot, if you've had a lot of
trauma, if you're like a very tense person, think about what
that does to your digestive system.
Yeah. And living in fight or flight
(39:27):
all these years, even since I was a kid, has changed the way
that my muscles and my body workwhen it comes to going to the
restroom. And it is so frustrating to
think that there isn't a magic pill.
There is not a food or a diet orthe amount of water or benefiber
or whatever you want to call it.Yoga, yes, sure, of course
(39:47):
lifestyle plays into it so much.But the distrust that I had
learned to have in my body sinceage 10 of having anorexia and
everything else that ensued in my life after that.
That caused all my Constipation,including genetics, of course,
and the food you eat. But really, it's so annoying how
(40:08):
it makes so much sense how much deeper it is.
And that's frustrating because you're like, so you're telling
me that my brain and how I feel about myself and healing all
this stuff is going to help my stomach.
You know, they're different organs.
You're so annoying. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's so
frustrating and it's also one ofthese things that we don't learn
(40:31):
about in health class. And I wish we had this awareness
because it's so empowering once we understand why we're doing
these things. I'm like a very type A logical
person, so I like to. Like Oh my God, we're so
different. I am the opposite of logic.
I am a cancer through and through.
For anyone who doesn't know astrology, I'm not like a big
believer in them but I do resonate.
Kids. Cancers are just so emotional.
(40:52):
I'm a Pisces so I don't. Know if it's spicy?
Pisces is that? Is that water though?
It's the last one of the year I think.
It's water. I like it so bad at
understanding these. OK, they're not important,
They're not real, I think anyway, but.
Yeah. Yeah, sorry.
Go ahead. No, you're good.
But like I like to like understand, like why these
things happen because then we can shift the behaviors.
(41:13):
Like the awareness can then leadto behavior change.
And in college, learning about everything that happens when
we're in fight or flight, I was like, Oh my God, it makes so
much sense. Like when you are in fight or
flight, like you have that stress response.
And there's the whole TikTok trend of like, I choose the bear
or like my body doesn't know thedifference between a bear and
opening an e-mail. Regardless of what the cause is,
(41:34):
when we have that response, our digestion stops because your
brain is like, I can't be digesting.
All my energy must be diverted to fighting or running away.
And so this is not important. So like, literally regardless of
the cause, and if you tell yourself it's fine, it doesn't
matter, I shouldn't be doing this, your digestion is still
stopped. And there's funny things too,
like we sweat so that we're moreslippery if a predator tries to
(41:58):
grab us. And like, isn't that crazy?
I was like, why aren't we told this?
Like, that's fascinating. And then we have more attention
and like, ability to see things better around us because it'd be
more effective to outrun and escape from a predator.
And like, there's more blood flow being directed to our
extremities to run and fight. Oh, why you're teaching.
Me so much. And it's like, you wouldn't know
(42:21):
that, right? Like you wouldn't, that's why we
feel light headed or like tingly.
And so even if you're like, it happened for one second, I was
stressed, I was anxious, and then you moved on.
It still takes time for your body to recover and course
correct from literally stopping digesting your food.
And we don't learn about this inhealth class, but it's something
that I think is so relevant in away that mental health shows up
(42:42):
for so many of us. I joke with so many of my other
girlfriends who do struggle withlike Constipation.
It's such a common thing. But unless I wake up and get to
like chill, drink my water, havemy matcha or my coffee and go to
the bathroom, if if I have to wake up and do something I'm
constipated for the next day. Like you have to wake up for a
(43:02):
meeting. My body, just my head feels
dissociated from my, the rest ofmy body.
And it's very frustrating because then when you're
constipated, you're in a really bad mood and you feel less
capable of the day. It affects your mental health so
much. So it's, it's really annoying
how if your mental health's not great, your gut's not great,
your gut's not great, your mental health isn't great.
(43:25):
And I, I realized that that justmeans that I really have to work
on like self soothing more and breathing.
But girl, like sometimes it's like I can't change my body
though I don't know what. I don't know how to get out of
fight or flight. Honestly.
Even when my boyfriend will say guess what?
I go, Oh my God, no, I'm always,he says.
(43:47):
You always expect the worst. It's a learned experience
though, like you learn to to expect the worst.
Yeah, there's no good after. Guess what?
It's so true I'm. Like, Oh no.
I wanted to also get your thoughts on like the body image,
body acceptance, body positivity, various movements
(44:08):
because I do think we're seeing a shift in all of these that's
been very prominent, I think forboth of us, like growing up and
going from like more diet culture to then it was like body
positivity, then we had body acceptance and there's body
neutrality. Like there's all these different
ways that as a society we're approaching this conversation.
And I would love to get your thoughts because I think it's
(44:30):
really nuanced, especially when it's not just like we'd like to
have a better relationship with my body, but it's like, no,
you've actively struggled and had that negative relationship
and that's what you revert to. Oh, well, right now it's 2025
and the trend is back to, you know, being tiny and thin.
And I've talked to my girlfriends about this, that it
(44:54):
affects me. Yeah, for sure.
One, because obviously, like, I do post things online and, you
know, it's my face or things like that.
And I just think with social media, we look at other people
and then when we, like, go and take a selfie of ourselves,
we're so used to looking at a screen and seeing others that we
take it. We're like kind of think I was
(45:14):
going to look like that. We expect and.
Even photos like that's not whatwe look like.
Like the iPhone lens is not whatyou look like in real life.
So like, we're so distorted. No, exactly.
And I think that anyone who has really struggled with body
dysmorphia knows this or gets toa point where you allow yourself
(45:36):
to have those feelings because they're there.
And when I have them, I do talk to either my girlfriend, my
partner, my boyfriend Stone, or my therapist because I have to
get it out because my desire is not to give in to them.
And what I mean by not giving tothem is I don't want to start
eating less. I don't want to start forcing
(45:58):
myself to work out more. I don't want to be tempted to do
anything that causes me to give in disordered behaviors.
But deep down, what I like to yes, that is why I vocalize
them. Because when I was 10 years old,
it was like I was playing a game.
The smaller I became, the bonierI became, the smaller the number
(46:19):
was. I felt very proud of that and my
binge eating was such a failure because I have worked really
hard to stop feeling like the feeling of fullness was a
failure. I felt like fullness meant I did
something bad. And I remember the other day one
of my girlfriends was like, oh, you know, the best feeling is
(46:39):
after a meal you just can lay and you're so full.
And I was like, whoa, that's so wild that you say that because
I'm still working on that. Like, girl, I love eating, but
feeling full and having to unbutton my pants, although
physically relieving, there's something in my heart and in my
chest that goes, what did I do? And when that voice comes up, I
(47:00):
talk to it. I go, you're good, it's all
right. So for me, the feelings don't go
away and the desires don't go away.
But my instincts have changed. I don't run and do anything
about it. I go good.
Good for you for not falling into that.
Like we're fine, we've changed, we're fine.
Yeah, it goes back to that, thatchoice point that we all have.
(47:21):
Like you can always make the decision to continue down the
path and make it worse and be ineffective.
But you can also choose to just sit with it and do nothing or
sit with it and maybe like make a more positive choice.
And you always have that option,which is really empowering.
That's also the, a lot of a lot of people, especially my
girlfriends will come to me for advice when it comes to dating.
(47:43):
You know, they're like this is the right guy or like, I think
this is kind of a red flag. And of course I'll have my
opinion. You know, I think that's what me
as a girlfriend, I do pride myself in being honest, but I
never tell them what to do because obviously I always chose
wrong before. And I would say, Oh my God, you
can totally choose them for the next 7 years.
I totally support that because Idid that or you could not
(48:04):
because you don't think this is a good thing.
But like, you can choose and there's really no wrong because
there's a lot of life experiencethat goes with choosing the
wrong thing too. And it's not objectively wrong,
but it's not going to push you into the life that you know you
want for yourself. And I think that happened so
much with dating where we asked for advice.
(48:24):
But like, we're not going to do the thing that's healthy.
And that's OK. Come on.
It's a story as long as it's notlike really dangerous, you know
what I mean? But like, that's why I have
stories. That's even why I'm on a
podcast, right? Like if I hadn't made a lot of,
I hadn't made a lot of of reallyunhealthy decisions.
I have nothing to share and I don't think that's a good thing,
(48:46):
but that's how I choose to look at it at the end of all of it.
Yeah, but also our ability to like, relate and empathize with
each other's experiences and understand other suffering.
Like, we wouldn't be able to do that if we hadn't had those
moments. And that's so empowering as
well. It's my favorite thing, like
when I meet people who have gonethrough stuff and have chosen
themselves, and there's a difference between trauma
(49:07):
bonding and genuinely connectingwith people who have lived
experience and are encouraging you to and inspiring you to keep
moving forward. Those are the coolest
friendships. I'm really grateful to keep
meeting like people like you andothers who have been through
some shit because it's like, I know you see me and I like it.
Yeah. And you also know that going to
(49:29):
them for support, you're going to get that response.
Hope not always, but. Like you won't.
Hopefully hit that wall of like,no, we don't feel that way, we
don't do that thing. Absolutely not.
Hopefully you'll get a little bit more grace because they've
been there too. That's right.
If people want to continue the conversation and continue to
hear about your journey, your experiences, everything
(49:49):
happening, where can they do that?
You can all find me if you just type in Kelly U, the letter U to
like any web browser, Instagram,TikTok.
I am launching a new podcast coming soon.
So you can check my channel, allmy socials for that.
But I also do have a podcast that I used to do it's called
therapy Thursday with Kelly U, where I talk a lot about the
(50:11):
things we talked about here. And yeah, there was a lot of
great things coming, but you have to follow me to see it.
And I just hope that you feel seen and heard when you see my
content. And all I ever want is for when
people, the things that I post for them to be able to reflect
on themselves and feel more connected to themselves.
You know, yes, I'm the one posting, but I really hope that
you feel more connected to you at the end of it all.
(50:33):
Yeah, and there's something so cool where when you find a post
that speaks to your experience and there's so many likes and so
many comments, you're like, Oh my God, people get that like.
That's one of the best. Parts about social media that we
haven't had in the past be like,there's thousands of people that
have had this exact same thought.
It's really, really cool. I think something that recently
reminded me of that was I share a lot about my past relationship
(50:55):
with my ex, but I've protected him a lot.
I never get into the really bad things or the details because
frankly, I don't think that they're even appropriate for
social media. You know, it's like, and I
recently shared something where I said all these statements that
he had actually said to me, which are absolutely insane.
And his aunt had actually comment on it and she said maybe
(51:18):
it's time to move on and let go or let go and move on.
And that really messed me up fora few days.
And I was sitting at this exact same desk.
I'm talking to you right now. And sometimes I just make video
journals for myself to process it because sometimes I feel like
thinking versus talking out loud.
I process it better when I pretend I'm talking to someone
(51:39):
else. Totally.
So I just set the camera up. I looked, I was just wearing a
hoodie and glasses and I was like telling talking what
happened and I was like so embarrassed that it affected me
a lot. But I also in the video was
saying to myself, I'm not not over it.
But this is also just a part of healing.
And so much like I I do strugglewith this and I showed it to my
(52:02):
friend and I was like, that's soembarrassing.
But I'm not going to post that like no one will care.
It'll seem really like self absorbent and the amount of of
responses that I got to that video, it was heartbreaking to
know that so many people have been invalidated when someone
says you just move on and let goor they have been bullied online
(52:24):
by their ex or their ex's family.
And that was shocking actually, because me, I think I'm not
unique, but I felt like this is probably just me where I'm
feeling really embarrassed that the family is calling me out and
saying what's wrong with you? Like he's totally moved on.
You're a loser. And I think the more we do that,
(52:46):
not even sharing it online just to someone else like helps you
let it go a bit and feel affirmed.
Yeah, like this the other thing about like mental health that
I'm like, it's so frustrating because our emotions tell us to
do the opposite of what's effective and shame calls us to.
Withdraw. And so it's like, if only you do
like literally the exact opposite of what your brain is
body that is telling you to do, the emotion will shift.
(53:07):
And whether that's to yourself, whether that's to a camera,
maybe it's a journal, maybe it'sa friend, family member,
therapist, when that shame comesup, that's the best thing you
can do. And it's so effective in helping
you move through the experience.Because when we avoid it, it
just amplifies and becomes even more over.
And then we do these behaviors that are ineffective and all the
things. And, and for anyone listening,
(53:28):
there's no shame in doing all the behaviors.
Yeah, do what you need to do until you are ready to change.
I was not ready to change until I was like 26.
That's when I got a relationship.
That's when I decided to get sober.
And I'd been struggling since like 15 years old.
So there's no timeline either. If you're older than me, you'll
(53:51):
know when you're ready. And if you're not ready, find
someone to push you to get ready.
Yeah, yeah, 100%. Well, this was such a great
conversation. Thank you so much for joining
me. Thank you.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
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