#223 today’s guest is dr. rosalind chow— an associate professor of organizational behavior and theory at carnegie mellon university who studies the power of social hierarchy and its impact on diversity and inclusion efforts within organizations. her recently published book, the doors you can open, revolutionizes the way we network in the workplace.
in this episode, we break down what work mentors & sponsors look like (and how you can land one yourself!) and how inequality affects the workplace.
we talk about:
• the difference between mentorship & sponsorship at work
• why sponsorship matters when it come to workplace inequality
• how networking fits into mentorship & sponsorship
• ways to get people to mentor or sponsor you
• myths around finding mentors & whether they’re actually true
• helping advocate for others in the workplace
• providing value at work even as a junior employee
• the benefits & value of being a gen z employee
• how to talk about inequality in the workplace
• why people struggle to address workplace inequality
• capitalism & how it influences our views on success
• the challenges in trying to change workplace inequalities
• advice for people who are just starting their careers
• comparing your career to your peers & workplace competition
mentioned:
☕giveaway! want coffee on me? every month, i gift one listener a starbucks gift card to enter:
1. leave a review on apple or spotify
2. dm me a screenshot on instagram
📲 bonus entries for story or tiktok tags!
© 2020 SHE PERSISTED LLC. all rights reserved.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Sheep Assisted, the Gen.
Z mental health podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton.
Let's get into it. For a lot of younger people in
particular, they don't see themselves as having a lot of
value. So they're coming to the table
feeling like all I want to do this take and I don't have
anything to give. And so the thing that I think is
important for people to know is there is value in the problems
(00:22):
that you can help other people solve.
Also that there's value in having problems that other
people can help you solve too. Hello.
Hello you guys and welcome back to Sheep Assisted.
I'm so excited you are here. We are talking about a really
interesting topic, which is workplace dynamics,
inequalities, how to find mentors and sponsor your peers
(00:42):
and have your peers be sponsors for you.
This is one of the most important skills that you can
have going into your future career or thriving as a student.
And so I'm really excited for you guys to hear from our expert
guest today, Doctor Rosalynn Chow.
She is an associate professor oforganization behavior in theory
at Carnegie Mellon. She studies the power of social
(01:03):
hierarchy and its impact on diversity and inclusion efforts
within organizations. Her new book, The Doors You Can
Open, talks about the ways that we network in the workplace and
really revolutionizing that process and coming at it from a
really new angle. So in this episode, you're going
to learn what work mentors and sponsors look like, how you can
land one, and how you can be oneyourself.
(01:25):
We talk about how inequality effects workplace dynamics,
advocating for others, providingvalue, and some other like
larger workplace themes that arereally helpful to be aware of
when navigating your career or your future career.
And we're releasing this episodeafter I'm a couple weeks into my
new job at Binghamton University.
I am working as a research assistant full time, so I feel
(01:48):
like I'm like sticking my head out from under the water to
record this intro for you guys because every day has just been
so insanely busy. But this conversation had given
me so many skills to bring into this new role, and I really
hope, I hope it does the same for you.
So without keeping this too longand of course, a solo coming
soon with all the updates, but let's dive into this incredible
career episode. Well, thank you so much for
(02:10):
joining me on Cheaper Assisted. I'm so excited to have you on.
I think we're also recording this at a perfect time because a
lot of people are just starting to transition into post grad.
Maybe they're doing summer internships, or maybe they just
figured out where they're going to college.
It's like a very opportune moment to reflect on how we can
be effective in our careers, howwe can start to establish these
(02:30):
mentor relationships, how we cansupport our peers through this
process. And so I'm really excited to
have you on the show today. Well.
Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Of course. So for people that don't know
you are professor, you also havea book that just came out and I
would love to get a little bit of background about how you
ended up in this area, studying leadership and mentorship,
(02:53):
relationships, diversity, workplace psychology, all of the
things as an area that you were interested in.
Oh, well, I'll give you the short version of this story,
which is I originally wanted to be a clinical psychologist.
And for those who don't know, toget into a clinical psychology
(03:15):
program. They're quite competitive.
I mean, everything's competitivethese days, but even back then
they were very competitive. And the way to get in would be
to have research experience. And so I started volunteering at
a psychology lab to do research.And then I also volunteered at a
(03:37):
suicide hotline and because of the volunteering, quickly
realized that I didn't have whatit took to work with clients,
but that I actually wasn't so bad at this research thing and
that I actually kind of enjoyed it.
And then I actually ended up taking a class in organizational
behavior my senior year of college.
(03:57):
I do tell this story actually inthe book, because what's funny
about that is my father had toldme about organizational behavior
a long time prior to me taking that class.
And because I, you know, didn't want to listen to my parents
advice, I just totally brushed it off.
(04:18):
And it wasn't until a friend of mine said, oh, I took this class
and organizational behavior was really good.
So I ended up taking that class and realized, oh, here's a way
that I could do psychology, but in a context that was really
applicable and interesting because it was important to me
to be working on things that would have an impact on people.
(04:40):
So then I, I ended up going to organizational behavior and
doing research on social inequality, how we understand
social inequality. Did that for like almost 15
years, I guess a long time and got a little bit tired of just
constantly pointing out problemsand not thinking about
(05:00):
solutions, which is how I I cameupon mentorship and sponsorship.
Got frustrated actually with howacademics are are thinking about
sponsorship and mentorship. And so I started doing research
in this area and was very excited to put out this book
because I think there's a lot about mentorship and the
sponsorship that people don't really understand or have what I
(05:24):
would consider to be maybe like a more outdated perception of.
And so hopefully the book is going to help eliminate these
different ways that mentorship and sponsorship can happen and
how we can all be mentors and sponsors.
So there's this difference between mentorship and
sponsorship. You really dive into this in the
book. But just like so many things,
(05:45):
the psychology world, these terms that we like very clearly
define and study in everyday life get really confused and
mixed up. So to kind of set a foundation
for people, can you clarify the difference between mentorship
and sponsorship, especially withrespect to your work?
Sure. So I mean, I'll start off by
with like where we were and why I got all like worked up to
(06:09):
start studying this. So mentorship for a long time
really just referred to an older, more seasoned,
experienced person who was helping a more junior person in
kind of through life. It didn't even actually have to
be about career. As they got picked up more in
the career space, it started referring, you know, to much
(06:34):
more specific, like work relatedbehaviors.
Yeah. And they did talk about
sponsorship, but for a long time, sponsorship was kind of
this like sub category of mentorship.
So it was like something that mentors would do.
If you looked at what the definition of sponsorship was,
it was like a mentor using theirinfluence on your behalf.
(06:56):
And what struck me as being, youknow, like where, why
sponsorship was not like the other things that the, the
mentorship people would talk about was it was acting on a
different person. So that is actually the big key
to how I think about that. That difference is like with
mentorship, first of all, now people who study mentorship
(07:18):
think that mentorship can come from anyone.
You have a peer mentorship, reverse mentorship, There's all
kinds of mentorship rate. Mentorship can come from anyone.
And but they've always said thatsponsors have to be more
powerful. And we can talk about why that
is. We'll certainly, I'm sure touch
on this, but mentorship is really about changing the person
(07:39):
you're trying to support. So when you think about people
who mentor you, it's like they're giving you feedback or,
or encouragement, right? They're saying like, great job
or keep doing this or well, as you do this again, next time,
maybe you should consider doing it differently in this way.
But these are all things that are meant to change us as the
(08:00):
person who's like the recipient of this advice.
And coaching and sponsorship is just is very different in the
sense that it is not about trying to change the person
who's being helped. It's actually about changing
other people and how they see and and treat the person that
the sponsors trying to help. So going forward, I'm going to
(08:23):
be using mentor mentee very likeclearly to be like, OK, that's a
mentorship. But if I'm ever talking about
sponsorship, I will be saying like a protege, not us a mentee.
And other people will use sponsee as well as a.
So mentorship, relationships, the individual is changing,
(08:44):
evolving, likely because of the knowledge that's being imparted
or the feedback that's being provided.
Sponsorship. You're more impacting the way
you're perceived or how others are relating to you.
Yeah. So it's again, it's about who is
being asked to change. Yes, mentees are changed and
then audiences that external audiences are being asked to
(09:07):
change how they see and treat a protege.
One area that I think it's really interesting here for us
to consider before we dive into all the nuances is why this is
important. You mentioned in your background
social inequality. And so I'm curious why
sponsorship and mentorship show up as such an important factor
(09:28):
for individuals who are coming from minoritized backgrounds or
don't necessarily have as much of A position of privilege, I
guess you would say, in these positions.
So one way to think about why this matters is that mentorship
for the most part is is really related to how we personally
experience our day-to-day lives.So having a mentor makes us feel
(09:51):
safer at work, makes us feel more satisfied with our jobs.
We're happier to be there, right?
We feel like we have support andclose relationships.
Sponsorship because it doesn't act on the protege one.
It's possible for people to be sponsored and to not even know
about it, right? And.
So that's how we're doing this interview is is you got
(10:14):
sponsored. I heard about your book and it's
like it's an amazing, it's amazing setup.
Yeah, no, that's right. So here my sponsor was Adam
Grant, apparently. And so Adam recommended that
Sadie get in touch with me, right, That you get in touch
with me. And so that's how this this
happened. And hopefully, like Adam did a
(10:35):
good job of thinking through, OK, like what kind of guests
are, is Sadie like interested in?
And then what could Rosalyn speak to?
And, and are they a good match? And to the extent that he's done
a good job of matching us, it's going to be great for both of
us. But that's The thing is, like,
(10:57):
obviously I'm happy to hear thatAdam sponsored me, but
ultimately, where sponsorship becomes really important is
getting people access to opportunities that they wouldn't
have otherwise have gotten, right?
Like, I have no idea. Yeah, about you and you had no
(11:17):
idea about me, right? And so this is a connection.
This being on this podcast is anopportunity that would probably
never have presented itself if not for the sponsorship of Adam,
right? And so when you think about who
gets sponsored in organizations at work or wherever, a lot of it
(11:39):
is predicated on who knows who and also who's seen as being
exceptional. And I assume, well, maybe I
shouldn't assume, but there's, there's a lot of research out
there, right, that suggests thatwhen it comes to being perceived
as exceptional, women and racialminorities typically have a
(12:00):
higher bar. So they're, they're much less
likely to be seen as exceptional, which makes it less
likely that they're going to be sponsored.
So that's one part of it, but then the other part of it is
also about who their sponsors are.
So, you know, gender and racial and ethnic background also are
(12:21):
play a big role in people's networks who they know and so
that also impacts the kinds of opportunities that their
sponsors can even sponsor them for.
I'm wondering if you can offer like an additional definition
that fits into both the sponsoring and mentoring
context, which is networking. You mentioned that like our
(12:42):
networks impact who we sponsors or their our mentors can
leverage their own networks to get us opportunities.
How does networking fit into this equation of mentorship and
sponsorship? So I just one thing I want to
clarify is that mentors can be sponsors.
So it's not like a mutually exclusive thing, right?
(13:02):
So someone who's your mentor canalso sponsor you, but it doesn't
have to be that way, right? So I would not say like I would
not consider Adam Grant a mentorof mine, but he is certainly a
sponsor of mine. So, so there's that.
So who mentors us and who sponsors us is, is very much
(13:24):
dependent on our network of who we know, right?
Because we can't build relationships with people if we
don't have access to them in some way.
So that's where networking like plays a role with both
mentorship and sponsorship. The difference between
(13:44):
mentorship and sponsorship when it comes to how we use our
networks is different because what sponsors do is they
essentially share their network with their sponsee, with their
protege. So that's at least that's one
way of being a sponsor is to do what we would call like
(14:05):
strategic introductions. So I'm trying to think about
this example of Adam here, right?
He did not strategically introduce us.
He did tell you about me, but ifyou'd wanted to go a little bit
further, he would have directly put us in touch, right?
And that would have been a stronger form of sponsorship.
(14:27):
But him letting you know about me and saying that he thought I
was a good fit was is also another way of being a sponsor.
But again, his ability to do that is predicated on him
knowing me and you, right? And so the how much our sponsors
can do for us depends a lot on their networks.
(14:48):
So you need to have a sponsor oryou don't need to, but right,
it's better to have a sponsor who is well connected because
the more different their networkis from yours, the more
opportunities they have to make these connections and to match
you with other people in their network who would be like
delighted to know about you. Yeah.
(15:10):
So building on that, keeping in mind that like a network that
aligns with your goals, a substantial network that could
potentially be utilized is a good thing to be looking for.
What other things are you aware of when identifying potential
mentors and sponsors, whether it's like types like how they
(15:31):
make these connections, are theyhands on?
Are they hands off? What stage of the career they're
in? Like what would you be looking
for and avoiding in that mentorship and sponsorship
context? So that's a really great
question. One caveat I will say is that
because sponsorship is, it's based on whether or not the
sponsor wants to sponsor you. And so I feel like it's hard for
(15:55):
me to answer these questions because it kind of assumes that
proteges have some sort of agency in this, which they do,
but maybe not to the degree thatI feel like people seem to think
that they do. And I am only emphasizing this
because I feel like it just putsso much pressure on young people
(16:18):
in particular to be like, OK, now I have to go and find a
mentor and I have to go and finda sponsor.
How do I go and do that? How do I pick the right person?
And. And so one thing that I think is
really important to say is like,actually, you don't get to pick.
Yeah, yeah, you, you can make itreally easy for other people to
(16:39):
pick you like you don't, you don't necessarily get to pick,
but so if I could just reframe that as like, how do I make it
easy for people to want to mentor me or want to sponsor me?
Obviously, right. Table stakes is just like do a
(16:59):
good job at whatever it is that you're doing, but that's like a
necessary but insufficient condition, right?
For for getting sponsorship in particular is remember,
sponsorship is, is given to people we think who are
exceptional, not just average. So the way to get over the hump
if you're already like a really strong worker performer is you
(17:23):
have to make it personal. So this is where things can
sometimes get a little bit trickier, especially for women
and people of color. This is where you have these
conversations about like, you should bring your whole self to
work. You should be more authentic at
work. All of that is based on research
(17:44):
that suggests that like it, you know, being more forthcoming,
humanizing yourself is a way to build relationships with other
people. You know, building those closer
relationships is really what often leads to sponsorship from
sponsors. But then when you're a woman,
you're kind of like, well, how much do I want to really reveal?
(18:06):
Or, you know, just any sort of if you marginalized person from
a marginalized background, you're, you're kind of like, how
real do I want to get about my like day-to-day life experience
with this person, especially if they're from a group that's
different than, you know, than mine.
And so it becomes this interesting balancing act for
(18:27):
people of like how much to shareversus how much to withhold.
Ultimately, the thing that I think is important is if you
just show people what you care about.
So it doesn't have to be about sports or I mean, those are the
easy things typically. But if there's something that
you're really, really passionateabout, I think it's, it's OK to
(18:50):
make that part known, especiallyif you make it, if you put it in
a broad enough way that it's kind of like, why would anybody
ever think that this was not a good thing for people to be
passionate about? Yeah, right.
So I mean, all of us care about.Well, I, I can't say all of us
(19:10):
maybe, but like, I, I would say that most people think it's a
good thing to want to contributepositively to the world,
whatever that might look like. And you know, you might say, for
instance, like I'm super passionate about addressing
climate change. Well, that can be a little
(19:31):
political in some circles, right?
So instead you can broaden it tobe like, I really care about
like future generations and making sure that the younger
generations are you going to have as great of opportunities
or you know, environments as generations who have come
(19:54):
before. So just kind of tweaking things
that might come off as being a little more political, casting
them in a broader way, but making it easy for people to see
what you're passionate about. And so passion here is really
important because. People assume, usually
accurately, that when we're working on things that we're
(20:16):
passionate about, we're going tobe willing to like, really go
for it, right? We'll be super motivated.
We'll be really persistent in our willingness to work for it.
So we'll put in high effort, high intensity effort, and this
is all stuff that people typically think of as leading to
high performance. And so if people see you as
(20:40):
passionate and they understand what your core value is or are,
and assuming that they have corevalues that align with yours,
that's how you're actually goingto hook them in, right?
So I wouldn't go out looking forvendors and sponsors in this
like hyper instrumental way of like this person is in a
(21:00):
position of power and they're going to be able to like get me
XY and Z. It's more like, OK, these are my
values. What are their values?
They do they align with mine? Do we care about the same
things? And assuming everything aligns,
then it just becomes so much easier to build that
relationship with them. I'm curious what?
(21:24):
Your thoughts are on like the, Idon't know if it's an age-old
adage, but it's advice I've heard a lot with relation to, I
guess more the mentorship framework, which is like you
provide value and then they'll provide value in return rather
than just going and being like, what can I get from this person
or contacts? Would you say that applies and
it's true, where you focus firston how you can provide value or
(21:47):
information or support to the other person, and then in turn
you might receive mentorship or sponsorship?
Yeah. So I agree with that sentiment.
The reason why I don't, like, wholeheartedly subscribe to it
is because when we start talkingabout like, OK, for this to work
out, I have to be able to provide value to the other
(22:09):
person. So now I have to start thinking
like, well, what value do I bring to this relationship?
And for a lot of younger people in particular, like, they don't
see themselves as having a lot of value.
Yeah, to bring. They feel very powerless.
So they're coming to the table feeling like all I want to do is
(22:29):
take, and I don't have anything to give.
And that makes networking in particular like, feel terrible
because you're in a way like, even though we might not
consciously think about it in this way, like you're kind of
going out and trying to like exploit people, which is not
fun. And so the other, the thing that
(22:51):
I think is important for people to know is like there is value
in terms of what you personally can do, but there's also value
in who you know and, and the problems that you can help other
people solve. And also that there's value in
having problems that other people can help you solve too.
(23:12):
So, so just like a flip, right is like this thing of, OK, I
want to help other people with their problems.
When in reality, like people love solving problems, you know?
And so if you can give them a problem to solve, that's
actually another way to build a relationship.
Because for them, well, now they've actually just seen
(23:35):
themselves helping you and they're like, OK, well, I just
helped this person. I must be the kind of person who
who helps like, I must like them, right?
And then like that's actually a perfectly valid other way of
building relationships is not necessarily providing value to
the other person, but providing value in a different way, which
(23:56):
is helping them feel good about themselves by having a problem
that they can help you solve you.
Mentioned how we can set ourselves up to be effectively
sponsored. How can we ourselves be good
sponsors, especially to peers, classmates beyond like you
mentioned, like potentially there's the network where you
(24:16):
can connect people, but what arethese ways that we can
effectively sponsor people, whether it's like how we
approach the relationship, how we advocate for someone.
Do you focus on like external outputs or more personality
traits? Like what are the best practices
there I. Think the easiest way to
sponsor, especially when you're at a junior level and you don't
(24:37):
have a lot of power per SE, right, is just to pay attention
to what is going on with other people and making note of what
makes them special. And then when there is an
opportunity where their area of like specialness is needed,
(24:58):
that's your opportunity to like sing their praises and be like,
here is this person that you allshould know about because
they're going to be the solutionto this problem that you're
trying to solve. And so you get credit for that
because you've brought the solution to them, right?
You're not the solution, but you've helped solve the problem.
(25:20):
And so this is a, you know, thisgoes back to your earlier
question of like, how can we provide value?
We can provide value by being the solution ourselves, or we
can also provide value by putting other people in touch
with solutions. I mean, and so, you know, I,
when I, when I think about like junior people or even let's,
(25:44):
I'll just use you as an example,maybe inaccurately, you should
let me know, right? But I can tell you on my end
that people who are in my generation are like, I don't
know how to get through to the millennials.
I don't like. I have no connection with the
younger generation, but I would love to be engaged with that,
(26:07):
right? But because our networks are
typically limited to people who are similar to our own, it makes
it really hard to actually like,find and build a relationship
with someone who's like, significantly younger.
But I can tell you that, for instance, like other podcasters
(26:29):
that I've been speaking with arelike, how do I get in touch with
a millennial audience? How do I get on millennial
podcasts? Like, how do I make, you know,
how do I build this network withthis group that I don't have
insight or access to? And that's where people like
you, right, could become really,really important because you are
(26:53):
open, presumably, to having those relationships and can then
make those matches for people inyour social sphere and then, you
know, these other people who otherwise don't have access.
Yeah. No, I totally agree.
And it's something that Gen. Z very much overlooks, which is
like there's a lot of people that want to understand how we
(27:16):
think and feel and approach issues they and that is like a
lot of value that can be provided, whether it's like
network or insight on experiences.
I think especially in industry, like there's a lot of sentiment
of like how can we reach Gen. Z?
How can we understand how they're thinking and has a Gen.
Z or as a millennial, you are qualified to speak to your
(27:38):
experience. And so I think you've kind of
like alluded to this that we do undervalue know what the value
becomes potentially provide is. And so being aware and hearing
those opportunities. And I mean, maybe again, you can
refer to someone else, you couldsay, I might not be the best
person to speak to this, but really like hyping yourself up a
bit and and thinking about thosemore creative ways that you
(28:02):
could provide perspective or insider value, I think is
something we overlook, but can make those initial relationships
really effective. Yeah.
Totally, yes, like plus one to all of that, yeah.
And I. I would definitely say that like
I, I try to be like more creative and out-of-the-box when
structuring these mentorship relationships, especially in
academia because there's a lot of inbound requests of the same
(28:24):
thing. Like I can help with research.
I want to take this class like I'd love support and I've been
able to effectively break in by being like, do you need help
with social media or I have perspective on this area of
digital related things or you need more participants.
I can make IRB approved video edits like these skills.
(28:45):
This value that's provided that isn't like the traditional
trajectory or framework, but still might benefit that other
person. Oh, yeah, OK.
I, I would, I would love to get one of those emails from you,
Sandy. Right.
Like. It's a need like, and we are so
savvy as Gen. Z and media and how we can like
improve dissemination and academia and kind of make these
(29:09):
things more widely accessible. But no one in Gen.
Z is thinking from that perspective of like, how can I
help in that respect? Like that's a skill set that I
can absolutely provide to someone.
And no one is ever like, hello, nice to meet you.
Do you need help with this? Which is so interesting.
Yeah. But then you know, I guess the
thing that I would, I would likecaution people on, right is like
(29:31):
don't offer your help indiscriminately.
Yes, true. Because part of what you're
doing is as you're building these connections, you're
essentially starting to build your own reputation.
And so you want to be careful about who you associate yourself
with. And this is again where those
values become really important in the same way that you making
(29:54):
your values more transparent makes it easier for other people
to want to sponsor you. You clearly if if you are going
out and looking for sponsors or mentors like trying your best to
find people who have values thatalign with yours so that you
don't run into any issues like later on 100.
Percent. Absolutely.
(30:16):
Switching gears a little bit andgoing back to the social
inequality piece, you've done really interesting research that
shows that when we focus on disadvantage versus privilege,
people respond really differently.
And so like the way that we present these issues, the way we
frame these conversations has a lot of implications.
What are the best practices for discussing disparities being
(30:40):
effective? Framing inequality based on what
we know from a psychological standpoint?
So it's funny that you asked me this question because only
recently has a review piece comeout that looks at this question,
I guess of like best practices. I can tell you that their
recommendation is not to not frame, which is to say like
(31:05):
there's a difference in how muchmen and women make.
So that would be saying like, there's an inequality.
But I'm not going to tell you what the nature of that
inequality is, right? Because what people are trying
to avoid when they do that is say either that men are making
more than women or women are making less than men, which, as
(31:27):
you alluded to, we found in our research, actually has a lot of
ramifications for how people understand what's happening in
those situations. So mostly being like, when we
say that one group makes more oris better off, we assume that
they're the group that needs to be explained.
(31:48):
They're the ones that are like, deviant in a way, right?
But when we say that other groups are worse off or make
less, suddenly they're the groupthat needs to be explained.
So my general take is that to the best of your ability, try
and do it both ways, right? So try to be balanced in how you
(32:10):
express or describe inequality. So sometimes using advantage,
sometimes using disadvantage, that's if you're trying to be
even handed about it. If you have a strong belief
about what the nature of the inequality is, then like use the
term that you think is appropriate, right?
(32:31):
So if you think that the deficiency, right, that the the
group that needs to be fixed arewomen and you can say that women
are are disadvantaged, that theyare in less or whatever.
And this is probably how we got into this world of like lean in.
And it's all this programming about like, OK, how do we fix
(32:52):
women? How do we get women to change so
that they can have better outcomes?
You don't see this same kind of rhetoric in terms of like men,
right? When in reality, if women are
making less, like, kind of objectively speaking, somebody
else has to be making more. Yeah.
(33:14):
But we don't typically talk about it in that way.
And potentially, like, part of the reason we don't talk about
it that way is because we don't see men as the problem, which is
why we don't have programming that is like, OK, I mean, how do
we like men? How do we get you to be less
overconfident? Yeah, the potentially like one
(33:35):
thing that we could try and solve there, but.
So I'm curious when we touched on this briefly when we
connected before the interview about how we get into these
conversations and there's push back with changes and occur
because it kind of feels like a 0 sum game, right?
Like if you apply resources to one place, it's being taken from
(33:56):
someone else or people struggle to like respond and make change,
even if objectively they're like, that's not fair, that's
not right. Do you have any like research or
information on why people have like such strong responses to
these contacts? Why we do view these things like
peers getting promoted or who has a mentor as a reflection of
(34:17):
our own opportunities? And in that like 0 some game
framework. Oh my gosh, I mean, so that's
like a, that's a big question, yes.
You know, ultimately 1 is that like everybody wants to feel
like they deserve what they haveand they want to feel like
there's a pretty straight line between things that they do and
(34:41):
like what happens to them. Because if, if there's not like
a clear link between the effort we put in or like how well we do
and, and what we get, like, like, why do we do it?
Yeah, yeah. That that's like not a recipe
for knowing how to navigate lifebecause you're, yeah,
everything's random. So I think we're, we're innately
(35:03):
kind of motivated to want to seethese linkages and also to see
ourselves as deserving right of what we of what we have.
So that's one part of it. I guess underneath what you're
trying to say is like, why is our mentality towards so much of
(35:26):
life right now? So 0 sum, like, why can't we be
more expansive in how we think about like what is possible
Again, so there's so much that we could go, we could go into.
But I ultimately I do think it has to do with the fact that we
as a society have defined success to look a certain way
(35:50):
and that certain way that we've kind of all landed upon kind of
is 0 sum. Like there's only so far you can
climb in an organizational hierarchy.
Now, that's not to say that likeyou can't create more wealth for
everyone. Like, that is actually a
(36:11):
possibility. The issue is that even once you
generate, let's say like you generate more wealth for
everyone, you're still going to have people who want
differentiation between those who are better and those who are
worse. Like hierarchy is something that
we are naturally wired to look for and in a way like want
(36:33):
because it makes the world easier for us to navigate.
I'm thinking in the back of my mind like Ezra Klein has this
great book called Abundance right now where his whole
argument in a way is like tryingto diagnose some of these
structural reasons why we've gotten into this kind of 0 sum
(36:55):
mentality. Michael Sandel has a book called
The Tyranny of Merit that is also a really great resource for
thinking about like why are we all like why does it?
Exist like this? Yeah.
Exactly. So how about I punt on that and
say that there are other people who have like.
(37:16):
Much no. I love it.
Yes, no, I, I. Definitely will be ordering both
of those because I do think likeyou said, this permeates so many
areas of our society. And so understanding how we got
into this position, in some respects, it makes sense how
we've ended up here, even if it's hugely ineffective or
(37:37):
inefficient. You did touch on part of my
question, which is like hierarchies that exist in
organizations. We have these larger structures
that we operate within, but it'shard to create change in these
large structures and it's hard to shift these inequalities or
disparities or disadvantages that exist.
I'm curious why that is. Even if we have these objective
(37:59):
pieces of data that can tell us as things are inefficient or not
equal or that something should change, why is it so hard for
that to occur? Oh, I mean, those who are in
positions of power are always going to be wanting the status
(38:20):
quo, right? Like nobody actively or not,
nobody, right? But very few people actively
are. Like, see how great I have it?
I'm going to give that away. So yeah, you can have it too.
In my more cynical moments, I would say the reason it's so
hard is, is purely because of that, right?
(38:41):
It's like people, people are going to want to what's good for
them. And people who are higher in the
power hierarchy, who have more control over how things are run,
yeah, are going to have a hard time imagining a process where
they have to give up that power or change their process in a way
(39:04):
that calls into question whetheror not they should have
succeeded. Right.
So if. Yeah, I'm going to argue for
different standards of evaluation because I feel like
the old ones were not meritocratic.
Like, what does that say about all the people who succeeded
under that? Yeah, original process, Right.
(39:28):
That's like not a message that that is going to go over really
well. Yeah.
I think it is the rare place where you're going to have
leadership that is sufficiently,you need to have really strong
leadership to enact some of these changes.
And unfortunately and leadership10 years are getting shorter.
(39:53):
So meaning like if you look at the average CEO tenure, it's,
it's decreasing over time to somewhere around I think it's
like 4 years now. Think about it.
That's like how much time you spent in undergrad.
Yeah. Like how much change.
And think about, like the thingsthat you cared about in an
undergrad. And maybe like if you were in
(40:15):
student government, you were trying to change.
Yeah. No, our student government is
like getting us these sweatshirts.
That's like one of the main goals for that tenure.
Right, because you're just kind of like my ability cuz I'm not
gonna be sticking around long enough to see these
implementations through. Yeah.
And so one option is don't bother.
(40:39):
The second is like scale down the, the ambition of the goal, I
guess, right. And the other one obviously is
like try and do it. But if you're gonna try and do
it, you have to know that everything is lined up in such a
way that you can actually make enough change in the time that
you're gonna be around, that it's gonna be sticky.
(41:02):
And that that part is the harderpart, yeah.
And I think like there's a lot, this is a very interesting
school of thought, especially with respect to the political
system. And just swing back and forth
and it's like, OK, changes are made and then they're reversed.
And like all of these dynamics and exactly what you're
describing, which is why psychologically it's almost like
(41:25):
discouraged to make these changes because you're not
invested in the outcome. But then also when these people
are in positions of power, it's like goes against our basic
instincts to like rework the system, even if initially that
was it was a goal. I am curious to wrap things up.
If you were starting your careerout and you wanted to set
(41:48):
yourself up for success, whetherit's a way of thinking about
this process, having a certain goal, whether it's presenting
yourself for sponsors and mentorships, looking for people
that are aligned with values. You mentioned little things in
your book is being really important.
Like, what would your one piece of advice be to someone who's at
the early stages and again, maybe is undervaluing
(42:09):
themselves, doesn't feel like they have that power to make
these huge shifts. And maybe they're listening to
this and like, OK, that might beharder than I originally
thought, but what would your insight be there?
This is a great question. And I guess my answer to that
would be I wish I was more secure in myself.
(42:31):
And I, and I see this in a very particular way, not in the sense
that I should have thought better of myself or like thought
that I had so much to give or, you know, like I should have had
higher self esteem, even though I would have loved that for
myself. What I mean by that is I think
(42:52):
for a lot of younger people, there's this concern that like
if somebody else does well, it must mean that I'm not doing
well or, or the whole like social comparison thing is, is
hard. It's so much better if you can
go around in the world and give the gift of seeing other people
for who they are and and tellingthem who they are.
(43:14):
Now, what I mean by that is, like when you see someone and
they seem like they are in theirzone or in their element, right?
Or doing something that really makes them light up, naming that
for them so that they have information about who they are
(43:35):
when they're at their best. Yeah.
And that can be your superpower,too.
Like, in a way, I think that probably has become a superpower
that I've developed over time isjust being able to observe other
people and then being able to name what it is that makes them
(43:57):
unique and special. And not just telling them about
it, but then also going out and telling other people about it.
Yeah. And so that's like my own kind
of little way of being someone'ssponsor.
I think if I had started off doing that, I have to imagine
that I would be a really different person than who I am
(44:20):
now in like totally positive ways, right?
But I think this whole 0 sum thing, social comparison really
gets in our own ways. And it's it's hard.
I will also say like if someone my age now told me this when I
was. Younger.
(44:41):
I would have been like, yeah, easy for you to say, but yeah,
if if you can, if you can manageit right, seeing what other
people's superpowers are and being able to name them to them
because for all you know, they're going to be able to do
that for you and tell you what your superpower is.
(45:02):
And that is like amazing information to have.
And I do think what you said about being really secure and
yourself also really means beingaware of your weaknesses.
And then when you're looking forstrengths and others, you are
able to then leverage that network and sponsor others and
be the problem solver to connectsomeone with that person.
(45:23):
And I think it's a much more fulfilling path.
It's less stressful than being like I have to be perfect at
everything and show no weaknesses.
And it's a 0 sum game. So it's just me and everything's
riding on my back. So I think that's really
important to remember, especially in the early stages
(45:43):
of your education or your career.
Yeah. Definitely agree.
Well, if people want to order your book or read more about
your research and the work you're doing, where can they do
that? So the book is being sold
wherever you get your normally get your book.
I am usually a big fan of bookshop.org right to support
(46:05):
independent booksellers but alsolike requested from your library
because libraries also need a lot of help right now.
I'm also on LinkedIn. I'm not sure if LinkedIn is a
place if people are in. College and like thinking about
their careers. They're definitely for sure,
unfortunately against their willmaking their LinkedIn profiles.
(46:26):
I was also brought onto LinkedInkicking and screaming it did not
want to do it, so I totally understand that I have.
The opinion people are like social media is so toxic and I'm
like, have you ever been on LinkedIn?
Because that is a stressful place to be scrolling.
Yeah, which so I will say. So the way that I use LinkedIn
(46:49):
is, in retrospect, an extension of things I talk about in the
book. So I don't actually write about
myself on LinkedIn. I write all about other people's
research. I try to amplify other people's
work that I think is really cooland explain why I think it's
cool and why people should know about it.
Yeah. And that has made LinkedIn so
(47:11):
much more fulfilling. Yeah.
I love that. Well, thank you so much for
joining me. I'm so glad we got to do this.
And I know this is going to helpso many people that are
struggling with how to approach these hierarchies and
relationships and also how they can support their peers and
their network. And so thank you so much for
joining me and sharing your insight and expertise.
(47:33):
Thank you so much for having me on, and thank you Adam, for fun
together. Absolutely.
If you enjoyed this episode, if she persisted, make sure to
leave a review, subscribe and share with a friend or family
member. Follow along at at She Persist
to podcast on TikTok, Instagram,YouTube and more for bonus
content. Thanks for listening and keep
persisting.
Welcome to Sheep Assisted, the Gen.
Z mental health podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton.
Let's get into it. For a lot of younger people in
particular, they don't see themselves as having a lot of
value. So they're coming to the table
feeling like all I want to do this take and I don't have
anything to give. And so the thing that I think is
important for people to know is there is value in the problems
(00:22):
that you can help other people solve.
Also that there's value in having problems that other
people can help you solve too. Hello.
Hello you guys and welcome back to Sheep Assisted.
I'm so excited you are here. We are talking about a really
interesting topic, which is workplace dynamics,
inequalities, how to find mentors and sponsor your peers
(00:42):
and have your peers be sponsors for you.
This is one of the most important skills that you can
have going into your future career or thriving as a student.
And so I'm really excited for you guys to hear from our expert
guest today, Doctor Rosalynn Chow.
She is an associate professor oforganization behavior in theory
at Carnegie Mellon. She studies the power of social
(01:03):
hierarchy and its impact on diversity and inclusion efforts
within organizations. Her new book, The Doors You Can
Open, talks about the ways that we network in the workplace and
really revolutionizing that process and coming at it from a
really new angle. So in this episode, you're going
to learn what work mentors and sponsors look like, how you can
land one, and how you can be oneyourself.
(01:25):
We talk about how inequality effects workplace dynamics,
advocating for others, providingvalue, and some other like
larger workplace themes that arereally helpful to be aware of
when navigating your career or your future career.
And we're releasing this episodeafter I'm a couple weeks into my
new job at Binghamton University.
I am working as a research assistant full time, so I feel
(01:48):
like I'm like sticking my head out from under the water to
record this intro for you guys because every day has just been
so insanely busy. But this conversation had given
me so many skills to bring into this new role, and I really
hope, I hope it does the same for you.
So without keeping this too longand of course, a solo coming
soon with all the updates, but let's dive into this incredible
career episode. Well, thank you so much for
(02:10):
joining me on Cheaper Assisted. I'm so excited to have you on.
I think we're also recording this at a perfect time because a
lot of people are just starting to transition into post grad.
Maybe they're doing summer internships, or maybe they just
figured out where they're going to college.
It's like a very opportune moment to reflect on how we can
be effective in our careers, howwe can start to establish these
(02:30):
mentor relationships, how we cansupport our peers through this
process. And so I'm really excited to
have you on the show today. Well.
Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Of course. So for people that don't know
you are professor, you also havea book that just came out and I
would love to get a little bit of background about how you
ended up in this area, studying leadership and mentorship,
(02:53):
relationships, diversity, workplace psychology, all of the
things as an area that you were interested in.
Oh, well, I'll give you the short version of this story,
which is I originally wanted to be a clinical psychologist.
And for those who don't know, toget into a clinical psychology
(03:15):
program. They're quite competitive.
I mean, everything's competitivethese days, but even back then
they were very competitive. And the way to get in would be
to have research experience. And so I started volunteering at
a psychology lab to do research.And then I also volunteered at a
(03:37):
suicide hotline and because of the volunteering, quickly
realized that I didn't have whatit took to work with clients,
but that I actually wasn't so bad at this research thing and
that I actually kind of enjoyed it.
And then I actually ended up taking a class in organizational
behavior my senior year of college.
(03:57):
I do tell this story actually inthe book, because what's funny
about that is my father had toldme about organizational behavior
a long time prior to me taking that class.
And because I, you know, didn't want to listen to my parents
advice, I just totally brushed it off.
(04:18):
And it wasn't until a friend of mine said, oh, I took this class
and organizational behavior was really good.
So I ended up taking that class and realized, oh, here's a way
that I could do psychology, but in a context that was really
applicable and interesting because it was important to me
to be working on things that would have an impact on people.
(04:40):
So then I, I ended up going to organizational behavior and
doing research on social inequality, how we understand
social inequality. Did that for like almost 15
years, I guess a long time and got a little bit tired of just
constantly pointing out problemsand not thinking about
(05:00):
solutions, which is how I I cameupon mentorship and sponsorship.
Got frustrated actually with howacademics are are thinking about
sponsorship and mentorship. And so I started doing research
in this area and was very excited to put out this book
because I think there's a lot about mentorship and the
sponsorship that people don't really understand or have what I
(05:24):
would consider to be maybe like a more outdated perception of.
And so hopefully the book is going to help eliminate these
different ways that mentorship and sponsorship can happen and
how we can all be mentors and sponsors.
So there's this difference between mentorship and
sponsorship. You really dive into this in the
book. But just like so many things,
(05:45):
the psychology world, these terms that we like very clearly
define and study in everyday life get really confused and
mixed up. So to kind of set a foundation
for people, can you clarify the difference between mentorship
and sponsorship, especially withrespect to your work?
Sure. So I mean, I'll start off by
with like where we were and why I got all like worked up to
(06:09):
start studying this. So mentorship for a long time
really just referred to an older, more seasoned,
experienced person who was helping a more junior person in
kind of through life. It didn't even actually have to
be about career. As they got picked up more in
the career space, it started referring, you know, to much
(06:34):
more specific, like work relatedbehaviors.
Yeah. And they did talk about
sponsorship, but for a long time, sponsorship was kind of
this like sub category of mentorship.
So it was like something that mentors would do.
If you looked at what the definition of sponsorship was,
it was like a mentor using theirinfluence on your behalf.
(06:56):
And what struck me as being, youknow, like where, why
sponsorship was not like the other things that the, the
mentorship people would talk about was it was acting on a
different person. So that is actually the big key
to how I think about that. That difference is like with
mentorship, first of all, now people who study mentorship
(07:18):
think that mentorship can come from anyone.
You have a peer mentorship, reverse mentorship, There's all
kinds of mentorship rate. Mentorship can come from anyone.
And but they've always said thatsponsors have to be more
powerful. And we can talk about why that
is. We'll certainly, I'm sure touch
on this, but mentorship is really about changing the person
(07:39):
you're trying to support. So when you think about people
who mentor you, it's like they're giving you feedback or,
or encouragement, right? They're saying like, great job
or keep doing this or well, as you do this again, next time,
maybe you should consider doing it differently in this way.
But these are all things that are meant to change us as the
(08:00):
person who's like the recipient of this advice.
And coaching and sponsorship is just is very different in the
sense that it is not about trying to change the person
who's being helped. It's actually about changing
other people and how they see and and treat the person that
the sponsors trying to help. So going forward, I'm going to
(08:23):
be using mentor mentee very likeclearly to be like, OK, that's a
mentorship. But if I'm ever talking about
sponsorship, I will be saying like a protege, not us a mentee.
And other people will use sponsee as well as a.
So mentorship, relationships, the individual is changing,
(08:44):
evolving, likely because of the knowledge that's being imparted
or the feedback that's being provided.
Sponsorship. You're more impacting the way
you're perceived or how others are relating to you.
Yeah. So it's again, it's about who is
being asked to change. Yes, mentees are changed and
then audiences that external audiences are being asked to
(09:07):
change how they see and treat a protege.
One area that I think it's really interesting here for us
to consider before we dive into all the nuances is why this is
important. You mentioned in your background
social inequality. And so I'm curious why
sponsorship and mentorship show up as such an important factor
(09:28):
for individuals who are coming from minoritized backgrounds or
don't necessarily have as much of A position of privilege, I
guess you would say, in these positions.
So one way to think about why this matters is that mentorship
for the most part is is really related to how we personally
experience our day-to-day lives.So having a mentor makes us feel
(09:51):
safer at work, makes us feel more satisfied with our jobs.
We're happier to be there, right?
We feel like we have support andclose relationships.
Sponsorship because it doesn't act on the protege one.
It's possible for people to be sponsored and to not even know
about it, right? And.
So that's how we're doing this interview is is you got
(10:14):
sponsored. I heard about your book and it's
like it's an amazing, it's amazing setup.
Yeah, no, that's right. So here my sponsor was Adam
Grant, apparently. And so Adam recommended that
Sadie get in touch with me, right, That you get in touch
with me. And so that's how this this
happened. And hopefully, like Adam did a
(10:35):
good job of thinking through, OK, like what kind of guests
are, is Sadie like interested in?
And then what could Rosalyn speak to?
And, and are they a good match? And to the extent that he's done
a good job of matching us, it's going to be great for both of
us. But that's The thing is, like,
(10:57):
obviously I'm happy to hear thatAdam sponsored me, but
ultimately, where sponsorship becomes really important is
getting people access to opportunities that they wouldn't
have otherwise have gotten, right?
Like, I have no idea. Yeah, about you and you had no
(11:17):
idea about me, right? And so this is a connection.
This being on this podcast is anopportunity that would probably
never have presented itself if not for the sponsorship of Adam,
right? And so when you think about who
gets sponsored in organizations at work or wherever, a lot of it
(11:39):
is predicated on who knows who and also who's seen as being
exceptional. And I assume, well, maybe I
shouldn't assume, but there's, there's a lot of research out
there, right, that suggests thatwhen it comes to being perceived
as exceptional, women and racialminorities typically have a
(12:00):
higher bar. So they're, they're much less
likely to be seen as exceptional, which makes it less
likely that they're going to be sponsored.
So that's one part of it, but then the other part of it is
also about who their sponsors are.
So, you know, gender and racial and ethnic background also are
(12:21):
play a big role in people's networks who they know and so
that also impacts the kinds of opportunities that their
sponsors can even sponsor them for.
I'm wondering if you can offer like an additional definition
that fits into both the sponsoring and mentoring
context, which is networking. You mentioned that like our
(12:42):
networks impact who we sponsors or their our mentors can
leverage their own networks to get us opportunities.
How does networking fit into this equation of mentorship and
sponsorship? So I just one thing I want to
clarify is that mentors can be sponsors.
So it's not like a mutually exclusive thing, right?
(13:02):
So someone who's your mentor canalso sponsor you, but it doesn't
have to be that way, right? So I would not say like I would
not consider Adam Grant a mentorof mine, but he is certainly a
sponsor of mine. So, so there's that.
So who mentors us and who sponsors us is, is very much
(13:24):
dependent on our network of who we know, right?
Because we can't build relationships with people if we
don't have access to them in some way.
So that's where networking like plays a role with both
mentorship and sponsorship. The difference between
(13:44):
mentorship and sponsorship when it comes to how we use our
networks is different because what sponsors do is they
essentially share their network with their sponsee, with their
protege. So that's at least that's one
way of being a sponsor is to do what we would call like
(14:05):
strategic introductions. So I'm trying to think about
this example of Adam here, right?
He did not strategically introduce us.
He did tell you about me, but ifyou'd wanted to go a little bit
further, he would have directly put us in touch, right?
And that would have been a stronger form of sponsorship.
(14:27):
But him letting you know about me and saying that he thought I
was a good fit was is also another way of being a sponsor.
But again, his ability to do that is predicated on him
knowing me and you, right? And so the how much our sponsors
can do for us depends a lot on their networks.
(14:48):
So you need to have a sponsor oryou don't need to, but right,
it's better to have a sponsor who is well connected because
the more different their networkis from yours, the more
opportunities they have to make these connections and to match
you with other people in their network who would be like
delighted to know about you. Yeah.
(15:10):
So building on that, keeping in mind that like a network that
aligns with your goals, a substantial network that could
potentially be utilized is a good thing to be looking for.
What other things are you aware of when identifying potential
mentors and sponsors, whether it's like types like how they
(15:31):
make these connections, are theyhands on?
Are they hands off? What stage of the career they're
in? Like what would you be looking
for and avoiding in that mentorship and sponsorship
context? So that's a really great
question. One caveat I will say is that
because sponsorship is, it's based on whether or not the
sponsor wants to sponsor you. And so I feel like it's hard for
(15:55):
me to answer these questions because it kind of assumes that
proteges have some sort of agency in this, which they do,
but maybe not to the degree thatI feel like people seem to think
that they do. And I am only emphasizing this
because I feel like it just putsso much pressure on young people
(16:18):
in particular to be like, OK, now I have to go and find a
mentor and I have to go and finda sponsor.
How do I go and do that? How do I pick the right person?
And. And so one thing that I think is
really important to say is like,actually, you don't get to pick.
Yeah, yeah, you, you can make itreally easy for other people to
(16:39):
pick you like you don't, you don't necessarily get to pick,
but so if I could just reframe that as like, how do I make it
easy for people to want to mentor me or want to sponsor me?
Obviously, right. Table stakes is just like do a
(16:59):
good job at whatever it is that you're doing, but that's like a
necessary but insufficient condition, right?
For for getting sponsorship in particular is remember,
sponsorship is, is given to people we think who are
exceptional, not just average. So the way to get over the hump
if you're already like a really strong worker performer is you
(17:23):
have to make it personal. So this is where things can
sometimes get a little bit trickier, especially for women
and people of color. This is where you have these
conversations about like, you should bring your whole self to
work. You should be more authentic at
work. All of that is based on research
(17:44):
that suggests that like it, you know, being more forthcoming,
humanizing yourself is a way to build relationships with other
people. You know, building those closer
relationships is really what often leads to sponsorship from
sponsors. But then when you're a woman,
you're kind of like, well, how much do I want to really reveal?
(18:06):
Or, you know, just any sort of if you marginalized person from
a marginalized background, you're, you're kind of like, how
real do I want to get about my like day-to-day life experience
with this person, especially if they're from a group that's
different than, you know, than mine.
And so it becomes this interesting balancing act for
(18:27):
people of like how much to shareversus how much to withhold.
Ultimately, the thing that I think is important is if you
just show people what you care about.
So it doesn't have to be about sports or I mean, those are the
easy things typically. But if there's something that
you're really, really passionateabout, I think it's, it's OK to
(18:50):
make that part known, especiallyif you make it, if you put it in
a broad enough way that it's kind of like, why would anybody
ever think that this was not a good thing for people to be
passionate about? Yeah, right.
So I mean, all of us care about.Well, I, I can't say all of us
(19:10):
maybe, but like, I, I would say that most people think it's a
good thing to want to contributepositively to the world,
whatever that might look like. And you know, you might say, for
instance, like I'm super passionate about addressing
climate change. Well, that can be a little
(19:31):
political in some circles, right?
So instead you can broaden it tobe like, I really care about
like future generations and making sure that the younger
generations are you going to have as great of opportunities
or you know, environments as generations who have come
(19:54):
before. So just kind of tweaking things
that might come off as being a little more political, casting
them in a broader way, but making it easy for people to see
what you're passionate about. And so passion here is really
important because. People assume, usually
accurately, that when we're working on things that we're
(20:16):
passionate about, we're going tobe willing to like, really go
for it, right? We'll be super motivated.
We'll be really persistent in our willingness to work for it.
So we'll put in high effort, high intensity effort, and this
is all stuff that people typically think of as leading to
high performance. And so if people see you as
(20:40):
passionate and they understand what your core value is or are,
and assuming that they have corevalues that align with yours,
that's how you're actually goingto hook them in, right?
So I wouldn't go out looking forvendors and sponsors in this
like hyper instrumental way of like this person is in a
(21:00):
position of power and they're going to be able to like get me
XY and Z. It's more like, OK, these are my
values. What are their values?
They do they align with mine? Do we care about the same
things? And assuming everything aligns,
then it just becomes so much easier to build that
relationship with them. I'm curious what?
(21:24):
Your thoughts are on like the, Idon't know if it's an age-old
adage, but it's advice I've heard a lot with relation to, I
guess more the mentorship framework, which is like you
provide value and then they'll provide value in return rather
than just going and being like, what can I get from this person
or contacts? Would you say that applies and
it's true, where you focus firston how you can provide value or
(21:47):
information or support to the other person, and then in turn
you might receive mentorship or sponsorship?
Yeah. So I agree with that sentiment.
The reason why I don't, like, wholeheartedly subscribe to it
is because when we start talkingabout like, OK, for this to work
out, I have to be able to provide value to the other
(22:09):
person. So now I have to start thinking
like, well, what value do I bring to this relationship?
And for a lot of younger people in particular, like, they don't
see themselves as having a lot of value.
Yeah, to bring. They feel very powerless.
So they're coming to the table feeling like all I want to do is
(22:29):
take, and I don't have anything to give.
And that makes networking in particular like, feel terrible
because you're in a way like, even though we might not
consciously think about it in this way, like you're kind of
going out and trying to like exploit people, which is not
fun. And so the other, the thing that
(22:51):
I think is important for people to know is like there is value
in terms of what you personally can do, but there's also value
in who you know and, and the problems that you can help other
people solve. And also that there's value in
having problems that other people can help you solve too.
(23:12):
So, so just like a flip, right is like this thing of, OK, I
want to help other people with their problems.
When in reality, like people love solving problems, you know?
And so if you can give them a problem to solve, that's
actually another way to build a relationship.
Because for them, well, now they've actually just seen
(23:35):
themselves helping you and they're like, OK, well, I just
helped this person. I must be the kind of person who
who helps like, I must like them, right?
And then like that's actually a perfectly valid other way of
building relationships is not necessarily providing value to
the other person, but providing value in a different way, which
(23:56):
is helping them feel good about themselves by having a problem
that they can help you solve you.
Mentioned how we can set ourselves up to be effectively
sponsored. How can we ourselves be good
sponsors, especially to peers, classmates beyond like you
mentioned, like potentially there's the network where you
(24:16):
can connect people, but what arethese ways that we can
effectively sponsor people, whether it's like how we
approach the relationship, how we advocate for someone.
Do you focus on like external outputs or more personality
traits? Like what are the best practices
there I. Think the easiest way to
sponsor, especially when you're at a junior level and you don't
(24:37):
have a lot of power per SE, right, is just to pay attention
to what is going on with other people and making note of what
makes them special. And then when there is an
opportunity where their area of like specialness is needed,
(24:58):
that's your opportunity to like sing their praises and be like,
here is this person that you allshould know about because
they're going to be the solutionto this problem that you're
trying to solve. And so you get credit for that
because you've brought the solution to them, right?
You're not the solution, but you've helped solve the problem.
(25:20):
And so this is a, you know, thisgoes back to your earlier
question of like, how can we provide value?
We can provide value by being the solution ourselves, or we
can also provide value by putting other people in touch
with solutions. I mean, and so, you know, I,
when I, when I think about like junior people or even let's,
(25:44):
I'll just use you as an example,maybe inaccurately, you should
let me know, right? But I can tell you on my end
that people who are in my generation are like, I don't
know how to get through to the millennials.
I don't like. I have no connection with the
younger generation, but I would love to be engaged with that,
(26:07):
right? But because our networks are
typically limited to people who are similar to our own, it makes
it really hard to actually like,find and build a relationship
with someone who's like, significantly younger.
But I can tell you that, for instance, like other podcasters
(26:29):
that I've been speaking with arelike, how do I get in touch with
a millennial audience? How do I get on millennial
podcasts? Like, how do I make, you know,
how do I build this network withthis group that I don't have
insight or access to? And that's where people like
you, right, could become really,really important because you are
(26:53):
open, presumably, to having those relationships and can then
make those matches for people inyour social sphere and then, you
know, these other people who otherwise don't have access.
Yeah. No, I totally agree.
And it's something that Gen. Z very much overlooks, which is
like there's a lot of people that want to understand how we
(27:16):
think and feel and approach issues they and that is like a
lot of value that can be provided, whether it's like
network or insight on experiences.
I think especially in industry, like there's a lot of sentiment
of like how can we reach Gen. Z?
How can we understand how they're thinking and has a Gen.
Z or as a millennial, you are qualified to speak to your
(27:38):
experience. And so I think you've kind of
like alluded to this that we do undervalue know what the value
becomes potentially provide is. And so being aware and hearing
those opportunities. And I mean, maybe again, you can
refer to someone else, you couldsay, I might not be the best
person to speak to this, but really like hyping yourself up a
bit and and thinking about thosemore creative ways that you
(28:02):
could provide perspective or insider value, I think is
something we overlook, but can make those initial relationships
really effective. Yeah.
Totally, yes, like plus one to all of that, yeah.
And I. I would definitely say that like
I, I try to be like more creative and out-of-the-box when
structuring these mentorship relationships, especially in
academia because there's a lot of inbound requests of the same
(28:24):
thing. Like I can help with research.
I want to take this class like I'd love support and I've been
able to effectively break in by being like, do you need help
with social media or I have perspective on this area of
digital related things or you need more participants.
I can make IRB approved video edits like these skills.
(28:45):
This value that's provided that isn't like the traditional
trajectory or framework, but still might benefit that other
person. Oh, yeah, OK.
I, I would, I would love to get one of those emails from you,
Sandy. Right.
Like. It's a need like, and we are so
savvy as Gen. Z and media and how we can like
improve dissemination and academia and kind of make these
(29:09):
things more widely accessible. But no one in Gen.
Z is thinking from that perspective of like, how can I
help in that respect? Like that's a skill set that I
can absolutely provide to someone.
And no one is ever like, hello, nice to meet you.
Do you need help with this? Which is so interesting.
Yeah. But then you know, I guess the
thing that I would, I would likecaution people on, right is like
(29:31):
don't offer your help indiscriminately.
Yes, true. Because part of what you're
doing is as you're building these connections, you're
essentially starting to build your own reputation.
And so you want to be careful about who you associate yourself
with. And this is again where those
values become really important in the same way that you making
(29:54):
your values more transparent makes it easier for other people
to want to sponsor you. You clearly if if you are going
out and looking for sponsors or mentors like trying your best to
find people who have values thatalign with yours so that you
don't run into any issues like later on 100.
Percent. Absolutely.
(30:16):
Switching gears a little bit andgoing back to the social
inequality piece, you've done really interesting research that
shows that when we focus on disadvantage versus privilege,
people respond really differently.
And so like the way that we present these issues, the way we
frame these conversations has a lot of implications.
What are the best practices for discussing disparities being
(30:40):
effective? Framing inequality based on what
we know from a psychological standpoint?
So it's funny that you asked me this question because only
recently has a review piece comeout that looks at this question,
I guess of like best practices. I can tell you that their
recommendation is not to not frame, which is to say like
(31:05):
there's a difference in how muchmen and women make.
So that would be saying like, there's an inequality.
But I'm not going to tell you what the nature of that
inequality is, right? Because what people are trying
to avoid when they do that is say either that men are making
more than women or women are making less than men, which, as
(31:27):
you alluded to, we found in our research, actually has a lot of
ramifications for how people understand what's happening in
those situations. So mostly being like, when we
say that one group makes more oris better off, we assume that
they're the group that needs to be explained.
(31:48):
They're the ones that are like, deviant in a way, right?
But when we say that other groups are worse off or make
less, suddenly they're the groupthat needs to be explained.
So my general take is that to the best of your ability, try
and do it both ways, right? So try to be balanced in how you
(32:10):
express or describe inequality. So sometimes using advantage,
sometimes using disadvantage, that's if you're trying to be
even handed about it. If you have a strong belief
about what the nature of the inequality is, then like use the
term that you think is appropriate, right?
(32:31):
So if you think that the deficiency, right, that the the
group that needs to be fixed arewomen and you can say that women
are are disadvantaged, that theyare in less or whatever.
And this is probably how we got into this world of like lean in.
And it's all this programming about like, OK, how do we fix
(32:52):
women? How do we get women to change so
that they can have better outcomes?
You don't see this same kind of rhetoric in terms of like men,
right? When in reality, if women are
making less, like, kind of objectively speaking, somebody
else has to be making more. Yeah.
(33:14):
But we don't typically talk about it in that way.
And potentially, like, part of the reason we don't talk about
it that way is because we don't see men as the problem, which is
why we don't have programming that is like, OK, I mean, how do
we like men? How do we get you to be less
overconfident? Yeah, the potentially like one
(33:35):
thing that we could try and solve there, but.
So I'm curious when we touched on this briefly when we
connected before the interview about how we get into these
conversations and there's push back with changes and occur
because it kind of feels like a 0 sum game, right?
Like if you apply resources to one place, it's being taken from
(33:56):
someone else or people struggle to like respond and make change,
even if objectively they're like, that's not fair, that's
not right. Do you have any like research or
information on why people have like such strong responses to
these contacts? Why we do view these things like
peers getting promoted or who has a mentor as a reflection of
(34:17):
our own opportunities? And in that like 0 some game
framework. Oh my gosh, I mean, so that's
like a, that's a big question, yes.
You know, ultimately 1 is that like everybody wants to feel
like they deserve what they haveand they want to feel like
there's a pretty straight line between things that they do and
(34:41):
like what happens to them. Because if, if there's not like
a clear link between the effort we put in or like how well we do
and, and what we get, like, like, why do we do it?
Yeah, yeah. That that's like not a recipe
for knowing how to navigate lifebecause you're, yeah,
everything's random. So I think we're, we're innately
(35:03):
kind of motivated to want to seethese linkages and also to see
ourselves as deserving right of what we of what we have.
So that's one part of it. I guess underneath what you're
trying to say is like, why is our mentality towards so much of
(35:26):
life right now? So 0 sum, like, why can't we be
more expansive in how we think about like what is possible
Again, so there's so much that we could go, we could go into.
But I ultimately I do think it has to do with the fact that we
as a society have defined success to look a certain way
(35:50):
and that certain way that we've kind of all landed upon kind of
is 0 sum. Like there's only so far you can
climb in an organizational hierarchy.
Now, that's not to say that likeyou can't create more wealth for
everyone. Like, that is actually a
(36:11):
possibility. The issue is that even once you
generate, let's say like you generate more wealth for
everyone, you're still going to have people who want
differentiation between those who are better and those who are
worse. Like hierarchy is something that
we are naturally wired to look for and in a way like want
(36:33):
because it makes the world easier for us to navigate.
I'm thinking in the back of my mind like Ezra Klein has this
great book called Abundance right now where his whole
argument in a way is like tryingto diagnose some of these
structural reasons why we've gotten into this kind of 0 sum
(36:55):
mentality. Michael Sandel has a book called
The Tyranny of Merit that is also a really great resource for
thinking about like why are we all like why does it?
Exist like this? Yeah.
Exactly. So how about I punt on that and
say that there are other people who have like.
(37:16):
Much no. I love it.
Yes, no, I, I. Definitely will be ordering both
of those because I do think likeyou said, this permeates so many
areas of our society. And so understanding how we got
into this position, in some respects, it makes sense how
we've ended up here, even if it's hugely ineffective or
(37:37):
inefficient. You did touch on part of my
question, which is like hierarchies that exist in
organizations. We have these larger structures
that we operate within, but it'shard to create change in these
large structures and it's hard to shift these inequalities or
disparities or disadvantages that exist.
I'm curious why that is. Even if we have these objective
(37:59):
pieces of data that can tell us as things are inefficient or not
equal or that something should change, why is it so hard for
that to occur? Oh, I mean, those who are in
positions of power are always going to be wanting the status
(38:20):
quo, right? Like nobody actively or not,
nobody, right? But very few people actively
are. Like, see how great I have it?
I'm going to give that away. So yeah, you can have it too.
In my more cynical moments, I would say the reason it's so
hard is, is purely because of that, right?
(38:41):
It's like people, people are going to want to what's good for
them. And people who are higher in the
power hierarchy, who have more control over how things are run,
yeah, are going to have a hard time imagining a process where
they have to give up that power or change their process in a way
(39:04):
that calls into question whetheror not they should have
succeeded. Right.
So if. Yeah, I'm going to argue for
different standards of evaluation because I feel like
the old ones were not meritocratic.
Like, what does that say about all the people who succeeded
under that? Yeah, original process, Right.
(39:28):
That's like not a message that that is going to go over really
well. Yeah.
I think it is the rare place where you're going to have
leadership that is sufficiently,you need to have really strong
leadership to enact some of these changes.
And unfortunately and leadership10 years are getting shorter.
(39:53):
So meaning like if you look at the average CEO tenure, it's,
it's decreasing over time to somewhere around I think it's
like 4 years now. Think about it.
That's like how much time you spent in undergrad.
Yeah. Like how much change.
And think about, like the thingsthat you cared about in an
undergrad. And maybe like if you were in
(40:15):
student government, you were trying to change.
Yeah. No, our student government is
like getting us these sweatshirts.
That's like one of the main goals for that tenure.
Right, because you're just kind of like my ability cuz I'm not
gonna be sticking around long enough to see these
implementations through. Yeah.
And so one option is don't bother.
(40:39):
The second is like scale down the, the ambition of the goal, I
guess, right. And the other one obviously is
like try and do it. But if you're gonna try and do
it, you have to know that everything is lined up in such a
way that you can actually make enough change in the time that
you're gonna be around, that it's gonna be sticky.
(41:02):
And that that part is the harderpart, yeah.
And I think like there's a lot, this is a very interesting
school of thought, especially with respect to the political
system. And just swing back and forth
and it's like, OK, changes are made and then they're reversed.
And like all of these dynamics and exactly what you're
describing, which is why psychologically it's almost like
(41:25):
discouraged to make these changes because you're not
invested in the outcome. But then also when these people
are in positions of power, it's like goes against our basic
instincts to like rework the system, even if initially that
was it was a goal. I am curious to wrap things up.
If you were starting your careerout and you wanted to set
(41:48):
yourself up for success, whetherit's a way of thinking about
this process, having a certain goal, whether it's presenting
yourself for sponsors and mentorships, looking for people
that are aligned with values. You mentioned little things in
your book is being really important.
Like, what would your one piece of advice be to someone who's at
the early stages and again, maybe is undervaluing
(42:09):
themselves, doesn't feel like they have that power to make
these huge shifts. And maybe they're listening to
this and like, OK, that might beharder than I originally
thought, but what would your insight be there?
This is a great question. And I guess my answer to that
would be I wish I was more secure in myself.
(42:31):
And I, and I see this in a very particular way, not in the sense
that I should have thought better of myself or like thought
that I had so much to give or, you know, like I should have had
higher self esteem, even though I would have loved that for
myself. What I mean by that is I think
(42:52):
for a lot of younger people, there's this concern that like
if somebody else does well, it must mean that I'm not doing
well or, or the whole like social comparison thing is, is
hard. It's so much better if you can
go around in the world and give the gift of seeing other people
for who they are and and tellingthem who they are.
(43:14):
Now, what I mean by that is, like when you see someone and
they seem like they are in theirzone or in their element, right?
Or doing something that really makes them light up, naming that
for them so that they have information about who they are
(43:35):
when they're at their best. Yeah.
And that can be your superpower,too.
Like, in a way, I think that probably has become a superpower
that I've developed over time isjust being able to observe other
people and then being able to name what it is that makes them
(43:57):
unique and special. And not just telling them about
it, but then also going out and telling other people about it.
Yeah. And so that's like my own kind
of little way of being someone'ssponsor.
I think if I had started off doing that, I have to imagine
that I would be a really different person than who I am
(44:20):
now in like totally positive ways, right?
But I think this whole 0 sum thing, social comparison really
gets in our own ways. And it's it's hard.
I will also say like if someone my age now told me this when I
was. Younger.
(44:41):
I would have been like, yeah, easy for you to say, but yeah,
if if you can, if you can manageit right, seeing what other
people's superpowers are and being able to name them to them
because for all you know, they're going to be able to do
that for you and tell you what your superpower is.
(45:02):
And that is like amazing information to have.
And I do think what you said about being really secure and
yourself also really means beingaware of your weaknesses.
And then when you're looking forstrengths and others, you are
able to then leverage that network and sponsor others and
be the problem solver to connectsomeone with that person.
(45:23):
And I think it's a much more fulfilling path.
It's less stressful than being like I have to be perfect at
everything and show no weaknesses.
And it's a 0 sum game. So it's just me and everything's
riding on my back. So I think that's really
important to remember, especially in the early stages
(45:43):
of your education or your career.
Yeah. Definitely agree.
Well, if people want to order your book or read more about
your research and the work you're doing, where can they do
that? So the book is being sold
wherever you get your normally get your book.
I am usually a big fan of bookshop.org right to support
(46:05):
independent booksellers but alsolike requested from your library
because libraries also need a lot of help right now.
I'm also on LinkedIn. I'm not sure if LinkedIn is a
place if people are in. College and like thinking about
their careers. They're definitely for sure,
unfortunately against their willmaking their LinkedIn profiles.
(46:26):
I was also brought onto LinkedInkicking and screaming it did not
want to do it, so I totally understand that I have.
The opinion people are like social media is so toxic and I'm
like, have you ever been on LinkedIn?
Because that is a stressful place to be scrolling.
Yeah, which so I will say. So the way that I use LinkedIn
(46:49):
is, in retrospect, an extension of things I talk about in the
book. So I don't actually write about
myself on LinkedIn. I write all about other people's
research. I try to amplify other people's
work that I think is really cooland explain why I think it's
cool and why people should know about it.
Yeah. And that has made LinkedIn so
(47:11):
much more fulfilling. Yeah.
I love that. Well, thank you so much for
joining me. I'm so glad we got to do this.
And I know this is going to helpso many people that are
struggling with how to approach these hierarchies and
relationships and also how they can support their peers and
their network. And so thank you so much for
joining me and sharing your insight and expertise.
(47:33):
Thank you so much for having me on, and thank you Adam, for fun
together. Absolutely.
If you enjoyed this episode, if she persisted, make sure to
leave a review, subscribe and share with a friend or family
member. Follow along at at She Persist
to podcast on TikTok, Instagram,YouTube and more for bonus
content. Thanks for listening and keep
persisting.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.