June 26, 2025 • 21 mins
#224 in this week’s solo episode, i open up about the mental health struggle i’ve recently been having and how i’ve developed a ‘should’ mentality around it. i explain how when we constantly tell ourselves we ‘should’ be a certain way with our mental health, we’re actually creating shame and stopping ourselves from living our best lives.
in this episode, i break down how we can all stop ‘shoulding’ and shaming ourselves and instead create actionable changes in our lives.
i talk about:
• how i caught myself using a ‘should’ mentality
• self-shame + how it gets in the way of our goals
• the psychology behind why we experience shame
• DBT skills to use when we’re feeling shame
• taking accountability when we’re acting out of shame
• guilt vs. shame + why that difference matters
• forgiving ourselves for what’s causing us shame
• moving forward from ‘shoulding’ + shame
mentioned:
• name it to tame it (message me!)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Sheep Assisted, the Gen.
Z mental health podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton.
Let's get into it. I'm curious if you guys have
experiences as well. Maybe it's with school, maybe
it's with things with your mental health where it's like
you have resources available. You know, if you do the thing,
you'll have the better outcome. And it's not that you're like
lazy or you don't want to do thething or it's extra work, but
(00:20):
it's literally you being like, Ishould be able to do this by
myself. And not only am I accepting that
I can't do this by myself, but I'm not going to accept the help
because is I just should be ableto do it alone somehow.
Hello, hello you guys and welcome back to She persisted.
If this is your first episode, welcome.
We're doing a little cozy sit down solo episode.
(00:41):
I don't think I've done a solo episode since I've graduated
college and I'm now working fulltime as a clinical research
assistant. 9 to 5 busy bee up inhere.
And so still getting adjusted tothe new schedule and what's
working as far as bouncing the podcast, still some social media
clients and then my full time 9 to 5 research shop.
(01:03):
So once everything is all coordinated and set up and in a
good flow, we'll of course do anepisode on post grad jobs and
routines and habits. What's been helpful, what
hasn't? But I wanted to sit down and
talk to you guys about somethingthat I noticed in the past
couple of weeks that I was curious if you guys had
(01:24):
experienced as well. And my hunch is that yes, you
guys are also familiar with this.
I wanted to hop on and share kind of how I was working
through it, how I was navigatingit.
And maybe it's helpful you guys can implement these tips and
tricks and ways of thinking in your own life.
So if you know me, I am in a pretty good spot when it comes
(01:45):
to my mental health. And I've been, I almost said
I've been lucky, but I've been really, really intentional with
my mental health and I put a lotof context and safeguards and
habits in place to maintain my mental health.
I've really careful boundaries and I'm really aware of how I'm
feeling on a day-to-day basis and try to make shifts really
quickly if I'm not feeling well.So I don't want to say I'm lucky
(02:09):
because it's definitely something that I've been really
intentional about. And I've also been in spots
historically with my mental health where it was so not in a
good spot, which you guys know, which is why I started the
podcast this year. First episode.
I went to a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe
depression and anxiety. I was like in and out of the
hospital, all the things suicidally depressed.
So like we've we've had a we've had a moment and now my mental
(02:33):
health has been really stable for the past six years.
I'm lucky that all I keep sayingI'm lucky.
I want to know what your guys thoughts on that when you're
having good mental health, Are you like, I'm lucky to feel this
way because I'm obviously grateful for it, but I also feel
like when you say I'm lucky thatit feels like you haven't taken
steps to have that outcome. And I really do feel like I've
(02:56):
taken a lot of intentional stepsand actionable choices to have
good mental health, and I'm really proud of that.
ANYWAYS, for the past six years,I've been in a better spot.
I was really lucky this was luckto have access to incredible
clinicians. And they've done a lot of
therapy and learned so much about how to maintain my mental
health, what works for it, what doesn't have support systems in
(03:18):
place that have allowed me to maintain my mental health in
addition to like what I'm doing on a day-to-day basis.
Anyways, all this to say that I'll have a depressed day here
or there, feel more anxious at certain times, but generally I
feel really stable and content and happy with where my mental
health is at. But there's one thing.
And if you know me, this is not a surprise.
(03:40):
It's my sleep. My sleep is a struggle and I've
done different sleep studies andI still don't really totally
know what the exact root cause is.
But I'm a bad sleeper. And that if I get 8 hours of
sleep, it's not like the typicalperson's 8 hours of sleep.
It's not like high quality rest.So I find myself I could sleep
for 16 hours and still feel tired.
(04:01):
I could sleep for 12 hours and still nap.
Always really hard to get up during the day, tired during the
day. And this has been going on for a
long time still. Again, not totally sure what it
is, what the reason is, but sleep is an ongoing challenge.
And so throughout college and especially like the past couple
of months as I've had more success with some different
(04:24):
things with relation to my sleep, I did CPTI.
So I worked with a sleep psychologist to really look a
lot at the way I was thinking about sleep and the habits I had
around it and shifting a lot of those things to have better
sleep hygiene in addition to what I was already doing.
And I found myself on a day-to-day basis on this like
(04:44):
internal narrative that I shouldbe able to do this without help.
Like I should be able to do thislike a normal person.
Like, people sleep well, people can get up in the morning,
people don't have to nap during the day.
Like I should be able to have a consistency schedule.
I should not have challenges with this.
And it was a really interesting way of like shaming the behavior
(05:07):
or the symptom or the feeling, whatever you want to label it
as. Because it wasn't like I was
feeling shame. It was just like this, like very
logical, like most people can dothis.
So I should be able to also. And you might be like, well,
obviously you're shaming yourself there.
That's very clearly like a shamebased narrative going through
your head. But for some reason it didn't
(05:27):
really clearly come across as like I'm shaming myself for not
being able to have a consistent and regular sleep schedule.
And what was really interesting,and I've now noticed that I've
done this with other things as well in my life, but it was
normally like, I should be able to do this thing, but then I
also wasn't accepting help or putting benchmarks in place to
allow myself to do the thing as maybe I should be able to, if
(05:49):
that makes sense. So there were a number of things
with respect to my sleep, like going to bed really early,
making sure that I was really consistent with my medications,
not doing caffeine certain timesof the day, doing more caffeine
in the morning, being really consistent with Cbti and really
exploring like these thoughts that I was having about sleep
and why I was more avoiding the night routine or more resistant
(06:12):
to trying these things. All of these support systems or
scaffolding that I could put in place to allow me to sleep
better, I was not doing because I was like, I should be able to
do that without those, despite the fact that if I did those
things, I would get the outcome I wanted.
And I'm curious if you guys haveexperienced this as well.
Maybe it's with school, maybe it's with things with your
(06:34):
mental health where it's like you have resources available.
You know, if you do the thing, you'll have the better outcome.
And it's not that you're like lazy or you don't want to do the
thing or it's extra work, but it's literally you being like, I
should be able to do this by myself.
And not only am I accepting thatI can't do this by myself and
accepting the help, but I'm not going to accept the help because
(06:55):
I just should be able to do it alone somehow.
And I felt like I caused myself a lot more like stress and
ineffectiveness. And I like literally lost sleep
over it because I didn't want tolike accept these resources or
help because I felt like I should be able to do the thing
without support. And when I kind of had that
realization, I was like, Oh my gosh, like that train of thought
(07:18):
doesn't remotely track that I can't do the thing like a quote
UN quote normal person can. And then I also will not accept
the help to allow me to get on the quote UN quote normal person
outcome. And I'll just struggle and not
do the thing and be more distressed because I like
deserve that. And it just didn't make sense.
(07:39):
And so once I realized that thatwas how I was approaching the
like lots of additional supplemental ways of scaffolding
my sleep, and this could apply to anything, it was easier for
me to accept help and again, really focus on that outcome of
like, OK, my goal here is to getbetter sleep.
(08:00):
My goal here is to wake up at this time every day.
And yes, I might need more support and more scaffolding to
get that outcome. And not using those resources
and support is not only going tonot make me get to the outcome,
but I'm going to feel worse about it and I'm going to dig
myself a deeper hole. And so that was really helpful
(08:20):
for me to think and sit with andunpack and like, do some radical
acceptance around. Like, OK, at this point in my
life, if I want this outcome of sleeping better, being able to
wake up in the morning without feeling so exhausted and sleep
deprived, have a consistent schedule, I have to stop getting
mad at myself for not being ableto do this the way that other
(08:43):
people are and accept help. Otherwise, I'm not getting the
outcome, and I feel bad about it, if that makes sense.
So I find it really helpful to understand, like, what shame is
as an intellectual concept. I'm an intellectualizer.
Can you tell by how this episodehas gone so far?
And then I'm better able to recognize it and interact with
(09:06):
it differently because I was doing this for like weeks and
months, if not years, without realizing.
Like, Oh my gosh, I'm shaming myself and not doing this
behavior because I'm ashamed of needing support.
So in DBT or dialectical behavioral therapy, the way that
we think about emotions is that they either fit the facts, like
they're justified in a given context, or they don't fit the
facts. So like, is it a proportionate
(09:27):
response? Does it make sense to feel this
way? Emotions are always valid.
So we don't ever say I shouldn'tfeel this way because I'd be
shaming ourselves. We don't say this is bad to feel
this way. It's wrong, it's blah, blah,
blah, blah. It's always valid.
We always feel those things. We createspace for them.
It makes sense given the context, but sometimes the
(09:48):
amount of the emotion we're experiencing doesn't fit the
facts. Maybe it's it's
disproportionate, maybe it's notjustified, maybe it's being
overanalyzed, etcetera. And that's when we work to
change the emotion. And so shame fits the facts when
you're going to be rejected by aperson or group that you care
(10:08):
about if your personal characteristics or behavior are
made public. I'm doing this podcast episode
right now about how I was not doing well with my sleep.
So my shaming really didn't fit the facts.
Would people maybe be like, wow that's really unfortunate that
you're 22 years old and you don't have a normal sleep
schedule? I mean, maybe, but would my
family and my friends and the people whose opinions I care
(10:30):
about reject me and excommunicate me and treat me
differently if I was like, I really struggle with my sleep
and I need to put a lot of scaffolding in place to allow
myself to have a somewhat normalsleep routine and not be
constantly exhausted? No.
And I also what's interesting about this, like internal
shaming was I had the lived experience to know that like, my
(10:51):
family's supportive. My friends are so patient and
supportive. You guys are listening whenever
I go Mia for a bit because I'm napping.
They're always so sweet and kindand understanding.
One time sophomore year of college, I was sleeping for not
literally 48 hours but at like odd hours during a 48 hour
period. So I wasn't responding to like
face times and texts from my friends.
(11:14):
And my sweet adorable friends Alice and Bianca, if they're
listening, showed up by my frontdoor to like literally be like,
are you alive? We haven't heard from you all
weekend. Like what is happening?
And I was like, I'm sorry guys, I was just sleeping.
I was very tired anyways, so I had the lived experience to know
that like the shame doesn't fit the facts, like I won't be
rejected or humiliated based on this thing.
(11:35):
And yet I was still shaming myself.
So it's interesting that like even when we know logically or
we have the lived experience to support the fact that we won't
be rejected, we still hold ourselves to that higher
standard and are like more sensitive about what's
embarrassing or shameful. So in this context, it's not
effective to feel the shame. It doesn't make sense given the
(11:57):
situation, and it's preventing me from getting the outcome I
want, which is having a good night's sleep, having a
consistent sleep routine, accepting the resources and
skills that are at my disposal. So DBT opposite action for shame
are Oh my God you guys wait, this is a funny moment.
I'm literally doing the oppositeaction to shame with this
(12:17):
podcast episode, but I just didn't even realize until I'm
recording it such a DBT sleigh, which is making public your
personal characteristics or yourbehavior with people who won't
reject you, which is you guys, the lovely sheep resisted
community. I know you guys will not reject
me or shame me or make fun of mebecause I'm like, my sleep is a
hard thing that I have to work very hard at to keep consistent.
(12:38):
And speaking to that experience and being like, I not only
struggle with this thing, but I'm thinking about it in this
way that's like really even moreineffective and it's causing me
distress and embarrassment or whatever it is.
Speak to it. If you want to send me a voice
memo or a message or comment below the episode, what it is
you're struggling with, put it out there.
(12:58):
I'm here to support you. I'll respond.
Be there as a good listener validating others.
She persisted listeners and alsodo the same if you see any
messages or comments. So A, put a voice to it, name it
to tame it is what we say with shame and B, repeat the behavior
causing the shame over and over and over again.
So like for me, I was like, I shouldn't need the scaffolding
(13:21):
and resources to have a good sleep routine.
So I'm going to use all the scaffolding and resources and
support to have a good sleep routine until it's normalized.
I'm like, this is working great and I can use these and I can
settle my alarms and have my really early night routine and
take my melatonin at the same time every night and drink my
multiple coffees in the morning.And that's like normalized and
what happens and doesn't feel shameful or like odd or like I
(13:43):
should be doing something differently.
Then there's another level of this which we call all the way
opposite actions for shame, which is not apologizing or
trying to make up for what's happening.
Like so sorry, I'm drinking my third cup of coffee for the day.
I'm a bad sleeper, which I do this if like you have ever been
around me IRL and I'm like, I'm a bad sleeper.
Like sorry, like I told my friend who we carpool to work
(14:06):
and I was like, if for for whatever reason you ever don't
see me, by the time we're supposed to leave for work, go
without me, I probably didn't wake up.
Like I'm so sorry and it's not on you.
It's a me thing. Like apologizing for things that
haven't even happened yet, whichalso I feel like is an effective
thing to like set expectations and I take accountability.
It's not on someone else. So that I also do feel is like
(14:27):
an effective expectation boundary communication to set,
not apologizing for like I have to go to bed early and like I
can't do that tonight because like I have work tomorrow and I
need to be really consistent about my routine.
I'm going to be exhausted if we go and do that thing after class
because it takes me X amount of time to like wind down, do my
night routine, etcetera. And then the last one, which I'm
(14:47):
not doing at all, curled up, sitting in my bed comfortably
for this episode. But changing your body posture.
So fake it till you make it, looking proud, competent,
lifting your head, body languagethat maintains eye contact.
You are acting in like a competent, proud, intentional
way with this behavior because you shouldn't be ashamed of it.
(15:09):
Your body language shouldn't be embarrassed or shameful because
this isn't a shame inducing situation.
Remember, it doesn't fit the facts.
We're changing that emotions because it's unjustified and
ineffective. So like I said, like if I am
late for work because I don't use my support systems to get
myself up on time and get restedenough that I can wake up for my
(15:29):
alarm in the morning, I should feel guilty because I've made a
commitment and I have a responsibility and I'm letting
others down South. In that situation, you do act in
accordance with the guilt, but not always with the shame, if
that makes sense. So in that situation, you make
public the behavior. So you like explain I have a
(15:52):
really challenging time with my sleep.
Normally I do all these things to try and set myself up for
success and make it as easy as possible for myself to have a
like seamless easy morning routine and not feel sleep
deprived. This is like something I'm
struggling with. Being vulnerable about that,
apologizing for the behavior, taking full accountability.
I didn't wake up on time. I didn't follow the routine that
(16:15):
allows me to be successful in waking up in the morning.
I scrolled on TikTok instead of going to bed.
I didn't put my book down. I didn't start my night routine
early enough. Whatever it is, repair the
transgression. So what harm did you cause in
the situation? Like I was late, which means
that I missed out on the 1st 30 minutes of work.
So I'm no stay 30 minutes later I caused someone else to have to
(16:38):
take over my workload because I was late and they had to cover
for me. I'm going to cover for that
person and apologize and make upthe same amount of work for
them, etcetera. Repairing the trust.
How long do you have to show up for work on time?
Is that person doesn't see you as someone who's not reliable or
consistent or able to show up and trust that when you say
(16:59):
you'll be there, you'll be thereon time.
Then you commit to avoiding thatmistake in the future to them
and to yourself, yourself that like you will be there on time
and you will wake up and that's not something that they have to
worry about. And then accepting the
consequences gracefully. Are you fired?
Is there like a pay doc? Do you have to apologize?
You have to reschedule something, stay late, whatever
it is, right? You accept those consequences
(17:21):
because the guilt is justified based on those actions.
You take accountability and thenthe all the way opposite actions
for shame when you do feel guilt.
So like, you should be guilty behaviorally, something was
ineffective, you committed a transgression.
But we're not shaming ourselves because like, you did something
wrong, but you as a person are not wrong, right?
(17:42):
Like that's guilt and shame. I should have clarified that
earlier, but it's a good thing to be aware of.
So guilt is I did something wrong.
Shame is I am wrong. So we can do something wrong,
but that doesn't mean that we'rewrong or bad as people.
So we can do all the behaviors to make reparations for doing
something wrong, but that doesn't mean we want to endorse
these like thoughts and feelingsthat we as a person are wrong
(18:04):
and bad. So the other two things that you
do is forgive yourself, acknowledging the causes of your
behavior. Like you guys can hear me being
like, I didn't set my alarm, I didn't get to bed early enough.
I didn't stop scrolling on TikTok.
Not I am a bad person, I am lazy.
I don't know how to wait. Like right.
Like it's what were the externalthings that led to this?
(18:24):
And then we let it go, we move on, we keep going with our lives
because it's not going to changethe outcome.
It's not going to change the relationship or the behavior to
continue to sit in it and Stew with that thought behavior
thing, whatever it is. And this is something that I do
feel I'm really good about is letting it go, being like
(18:46):
nothing is going to change at this point.
We just keep moving forward and giving yourself that grace.
So what am I doing now moving forward?
I am doing all those things withthe opposite action and over the
top opposite action for the shame in this context.
So I'm talking about it. I'm not apologizing.
I'm doing the behavior of like putting the scaffolding in
(19:08):
place, using my sleep hygiene routine and not feeling ashamed.
Like I need an early bedtime andlots of structure and support
and I can't just sleep for threehours and be fine the next day.
I'm being really mindful of how I'm thinking about my sleep,
knowing that like OK in the past, this is an emotional
vulnerability that like things around my sleep are not only
(19:31):
really challenging, but I have alot of feelings around them.
Like I'm more predisposed to feel ashamed or guilty or angry,
whatever it is. So when I'm having thoughts and
feelings about sleep, I'm payinga lot more attention to them and
I'm having more awareness aroundthe OK, like what's the root
fear there? What's the feeling?
What's the thought and why? And then I'm packing that,
(19:52):
checking the facts. If it's justified, we continue
on our way. If it's not justified, we do
opposite action. So I hope that you guys are not
also struggling with your slave because it's not a fun thing to
navigate. But I do hope that this was
helpful if there's something else that you keep shooting and
shaming yourself about to. Understand how to be more aware
(20:15):
of that and how to navigate thatin a really like self
compassionate and effective way and to get the outcome that you
want, right. So if you're also in that
position, I hope that it was helpful to kind of unpack,
intellectualize that a little bit and understand how you can
kind of counteract those feelings and thoughts and get
out of our own way because I feel like that's something I do
(20:37):
a lot and I'm sure you guys can relate to that as well.
So if you liked this little likemini solo where we just
reflected on things and thoughts, let me know.
If you want to name it to tame it and send me a message to DM
and e-mail anything to let me know what it is that you're
working on feeling less shame about, let me know.
I'd love to be a listening ear there to support however I can.
(20:58):
I really do hope this was helpful.
I want to do more episodes at some point on shame and do like
a book club episode on like Brene Brown's episodes in her
work because it's such an interesting thing.
And I think that's one of the things I struggle most with with
my mental health, which is why it's popping up here with
something as inconsequential asleep is shame and like really
internalizing and attaching our behaviors and our feelings to
(21:21):
like us as people. So more episodes on that coming
at some point, but I want to do more solos for you guys now that
I'm not as intellectually drained from classes and exams
and work and having a little bitmore mental bandwidth, which is
exciting. So if you guys have any requests
for solo episodes or things you want to hear on the podcast, let
me know. I hope this was helpful and I
(21:42):
hope you guys have a great week and I will talk to you next
Thursday if you enjoyed this episode.
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Thanks for listening and keep persisting.
Welcome to Sheep Assisted, the Gen.
Z mental health podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton.
Let's get into it. I'm curious if you guys have
experiences as well. Maybe it's with school, maybe
it's with things with your mental health where it's like
you have resources available. You know, if you do the thing,
you'll have the better outcome. And it's not that you're like
lazy or you don't want to do thething or it's extra work, but
(00:20):
it's literally you being like, Ishould be able to do this by
myself. And not only am I accepting that
I can't do this by myself, but I'm not going to accept the help
because is I just should be ableto do it alone somehow.
Hello, hello you guys and welcome back to She persisted.
If this is your first episode, welcome.
We're doing a little cozy sit down solo episode.
(00:41):
I don't think I've done a solo episode since I've graduated
college and I'm now working fulltime as a clinical research
assistant. 9 to 5 busy bee up inhere.
And so still getting adjusted tothe new schedule and what's
working as far as bouncing the podcast, still some social media
clients and then my full time 9 to 5 research shop.
(01:03):
So once everything is all coordinated and set up and in a
good flow, we'll of course do anepisode on post grad jobs and
routines and habits. What's been helpful, what
hasn't? But I wanted to sit down and
talk to you guys about somethingthat I noticed in the past
couple of weeks that I was curious if you guys had
(01:24):
experienced as well. And my hunch is that yes, you
guys are also familiar with this.
I wanted to hop on and share kind of how I was working
through it, how I was navigatingit.
And maybe it's helpful you guys can implement these tips and
tricks and ways of thinking in your own life.
So if you know me, I am in a pretty good spot when it comes
(01:45):
to my mental health. And I've been, I almost said
I've been lucky, but I've been really, really intentional with
my mental health and I put a lotof context and safeguards and
habits in place to maintain my mental health.
I've really careful boundaries and I'm really aware of how I'm
feeling on a day-to-day basis and try to make shifts really
quickly if I'm not feeling well.So I don't want to say I'm lucky
(02:09):
because it's definitely something that I've been really
intentional about. And I've also been in spots
historically with my mental health where it was so not in a
good spot, which you guys know, which is why I started the
podcast this year. First episode.
I went to a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe
depression and anxiety. I was like in and out of the
hospital, all the things suicidally depressed.
So like we've we've had a we've had a moment and now my mental
(02:33):
health has been really stable for the past six years.
I'm lucky that all I keep sayingI'm lucky.
I want to know what your guys thoughts on that when you're
having good mental health, Are you like, I'm lucky to feel this
way because I'm obviously grateful for it, but I also feel
like when you say I'm lucky thatit feels like you haven't taken
steps to have that outcome. And I really do feel like I've
(02:56):
taken a lot of intentional stepsand actionable choices to have
good mental health, and I'm really proud of that.
ANYWAYS, for the past six years,I've been in a better spot.
I was really lucky this was luckto have access to incredible
clinicians. And they've done a lot of
therapy and learned so much about how to maintain my mental
health, what works for it, what doesn't have support systems in
(03:18):
place that have allowed me to maintain my mental health in
addition to like what I'm doing on a day-to-day basis.
Anyways, all this to say that I'll have a depressed day here
or there, feel more anxious at certain times, but generally I
feel really stable and content and happy with where my mental
health is at. But there's one thing.
And if you know me, this is not a surprise.
(03:40):
It's my sleep. My sleep is a struggle and I've
done different sleep studies andI still don't really totally
know what the exact root cause is.
But I'm a bad sleeper. And that if I get 8 hours of
sleep, it's not like the typicalperson's 8 hours of sleep.
It's not like high quality rest.So I find myself I could sleep
for 16 hours and still feel tired.
(04:01):
I could sleep for 12 hours and still nap.
Always really hard to get up during the day, tired during the
day. And this has been going on for a
long time still. Again, not totally sure what it
is, what the reason is, but sleep is an ongoing challenge.
And so throughout college and especially like the past couple
of months as I've had more success with some different
(04:24):
things with relation to my sleep, I did CPTI.
So I worked with a sleep psychologist to really look a
lot at the way I was thinking about sleep and the habits I had
around it and shifting a lot of those things to have better
sleep hygiene in addition to what I was already doing.
And I found myself on a day-to-day basis on this like
(04:44):
internal narrative that I shouldbe able to do this without help.
Like I should be able to do thislike a normal person.
Like, people sleep well, people can get up in the morning,
people don't have to nap during the day.
Like I should be able to have a consistency schedule.
I should not have challenges with this.
And it was a really interesting way of like shaming the behavior
(05:07):
or the symptom or the feeling, whatever you want to label it
as. Because it wasn't like I was
feeling shame. It was just like this, like very
logical, like most people can dothis.
So I should be able to also. And you might be like, well,
obviously you're shaming yourself there.
That's very clearly like a shamebased narrative going through
your head. But for some reason it didn't
(05:27):
really clearly come across as like I'm shaming myself for not
being able to have a consistent and regular sleep schedule.
And what was really interesting,and I've now noticed that I've
done this with other things as well in my life, but it was
normally like, I should be able to do this thing, but then I
also wasn't accepting help or putting benchmarks in place to
allow myself to do the thing as maybe I should be able to, if
(05:49):
that makes sense. So there were a number of things
with respect to my sleep, like going to bed really early,
making sure that I was really consistent with my medications,
not doing caffeine certain timesof the day, doing more caffeine
in the morning, being really consistent with Cbti and really
exploring like these thoughts that I was having about sleep
and why I was more avoiding the night routine or more resistant
(06:12):
to trying these things. All of these support systems or
scaffolding that I could put in place to allow me to sleep
better, I was not doing because I was like, I should be able to
do that without those, despite the fact that if I did those
things, I would get the outcome I wanted.
And I'm curious if you guys haveexperienced this as well.
Maybe it's with school, maybe it's with things with your
(06:34):
mental health where it's like you have resources available.
You know, if you do the thing, you'll have the better outcome.
And it's not that you're like lazy or you don't want to do the
thing or it's extra work, but it's literally you being like, I
should be able to do this by myself.
And not only am I accepting thatI can't do this by myself and
accepting the help, but I'm not going to accept the help because
(06:55):
I just should be able to do it alone somehow.
And I felt like I caused myself a lot more like stress and
ineffectiveness. And I like literally lost sleep
over it because I didn't want tolike accept these resources or
help because I felt like I should be able to do the thing
without support. And when I kind of had that
realization, I was like, Oh my gosh, like that train of thought
(07:18):
doesn't remotely track that I can't do the thing like a quote
UN quote normal person can. And then I also will not accept
the help to allow me to get on the quote UN quote normal person
outcome. And I'll just struggle and not
do the thing and be more distressed because I like
deserve that. And it just didn't make sense.
(07:39):
And so once I realized that thatwas how I was approaching the
like lots of additional supplemental ways of scaffolding
my sleep, and this could apply to anything, it was easier for
me to accept help and again, really focus on that outcome of
like, OK, my goal here is to getbetter sleep.
(08:00):
My goal here is to wake up at this time every day.
And yes, I might need more support and more scaffolding to
get that outcome. And not using those resources
and support is not only going tonot make me get to the outcome,
but I'm going to feel worse about it and I'm going to dig
myself a deeper hole. And so that was really helpful
(08:20):
for me to think and sit with andunpack and like, do some radical
acceptance around. Like, OK, at this point in my
life, if I want this outcome of sleeping better, being able to
wake up in the morning without feeling so exhausted and sleep
deprived, have a consistent schedule, I have to stop getting
mad at myself for not being ableto do this the way that other
(08:43):
people are and accept help. Otherwise, I'm not getting the
outcome, and I feel bad about it, if that makes sense.
So I find it really helpful to understand, like, what shame is
as an intellectual concept. I'm an intellectualizer.
Can you tell by how this episodehas gone so far?
And then I'm better able to recognize it and interact with
(09:06):
it differently because I was doing this for like weeks and
months, if not years, without realizing.
Like, Oh my gosh, I'm shaming myself and not doing this
behavior because I'm ashamed of needing support.
So in DBT or dialectical behavioral therapy, the way that
we think about emotions is that they either fit the facts, like
they're justified in a given context, or they don't fit the
facts. So like, is it a proportionate
(09:27):
response? Does it make sense to feel this
way? Emotions are always valid.
So we don't ever say I shouldn'tfeel this way because I'd be
shaming ourselves. We don't say this is bad to feel
this way. It's wrong, it's blah, blah,
blah, blah. It's always valid.
We always feel those things. We createspace for them.
It makes sense given the context, but sometimes the
(09:48):
amount of the emotion we're experiencing doesn't fit the
facts. Maybe it's it's
disproportionate, maybe it's notjustified, maybe it's being
overanalyzed, etcetera. And that's when we work to
change the emotion. And so shame fits the facts when
you're going to be rejected by aperson or group that you care
(10:08):
about if your personal characteristics or behavior are
made public. I'm doing this podcast episode
right now about how I was not doing well with my sleep.
So my shaming really didn't fit the facts.
Would people maybe be like, wow that's really unfortunate that
you're 22 years old and you don't have a normal sleep
schedule? I mean, maybe, but would my
family and my friends and the people whose opinions I care
(10:30):
about reject me and excommunicate me and treat me
differently if I was like, I really struggle with my sleep
and I need to put a lot of scaffolding in place to allow
myself to have a somewhat normalsleep routine and not be
constantly exhausted? No.
And I also what's interesting about this, like internal
shaming was I had the lived experience to know that like, my
(10:51):
family's supportive. My friends are so patient and
supportive. You guys are listening whenever
I go Mia for a bit because I'm napping.
They're always so sweet and kindand understanding.
One time sophomore year of college, I was sleeping for not
literally 48 hours but at like odd hours during a 48 hour
period. So I wasn't responding to like
face times and texts from my friends.
(11:14):
And my sweet adorable friends Alice and Bianca, if they're
listening, showed up by my frontdoor to like literally be like,
are you alive? We haven't heard from you all
weekend. Like what is happening?
And I was like, I'm sorry guys, I was just sleeping.
I was very tired anyways, so I had the lived experience to know
that like the shame doesn't fit the facts, like I won't be
rejected or humiliated based on this thing.
(11:35):
And yet I was still shaming myself.
So it's interesting that like even when we know logically or
we have the lived experience to support the fact that we won't
be rejected, we still hold ourselves to that higher
standard and are like more sensitive about what's
embarrassing or shameful. So in this context, it's not
effective to feel the shame. It doesn't make sense given the
(11:57):
situation, and it's preventing me from getting the outcome I
want, which is having a good night's sleep, having a
consistent sleep routine, accepting the resources and
skills that are at my disposal. So DBT opposite action for shame
are Oh my God you guys wait, this is a funny moment.
I'm literally doing the oppositeaction to shame with this
(12:17):
podcast episode, but I just didn't even realize until I'm
recording it such a DBT sleigh, which is making public your
personal characteristics or yourbehavior with people who won't
reject you, which is you guys, the lovely sheep resisted
community. I know you guys will not reject
me or shame me or make fun of mebecause I'm like, my sleep is a
hard thing that I have to work very hard at to keep consistent.
(12:38):
And speaking to that experience and being like, I not only
struggle with this thing, but I'm thinking about it in this
way that's like really even moreineffective and it's causing me
distress and embarrassment or whatever it is.
Speak to it. If you want to send me a voice
memo or a message or comment below the episode, what it is
you're struggling with, put it out there.
(12:58):
I'm here to support you. I'll respond.
Be there as a good listener validating others.
She persisted listeners and alsodo the same if you see any
messages or comments. So A, put a voice to it, name it
to tame it is what we say with shame and B, repeat the behavior
causing the shame over and over and over again.
So like for me, I was like, I shouldn't need the scaffolding
(13:21):
and resources to have a good sleep routine.
So I'm going to use all the scaffolding and resources and
support to have a good sleep routine until it's normalized.
I'm like, this is working great and I can use these and I can
settle my alarms and have my really early night routine and
take my melatonin at the same time every night and drink my
multiple coffees in the morning.And that's like normalized and
what happens and doesn't feel shameful or like odd or like I
(13:43):
should be doing something differently.
Then there's another level of this which we call all the way
opposite actions for shame, which is not apologizing or
trying to make up for what's happening.
Like so sorry, I'm drinking my third cup of coffee for the day.
I'm a bad sleeper, which I do this if like you have ever been
around me IRL and I'm like, I'm a bad sleeper.
Like sorry, like I told my friend who we carpool to work
(14:06):
and I was like, if for for whatever reason you ever don't
see me, by the time we're supposed to leave for work, go
without me, I probably didn't wake up.
Like I'm so sorry and it's not on you.
It's a me thing. Like apologizing for things that
haven't even happened yet, whichalso I feel like is an effective
thing to like set expectations and I take accountability.
It's not on someone else. So that I also do feel is like
(14:27):
an effective expectation boundary communication to set,
not apologizing for like I have to go to bed early and like I
can't do that tonight because like I have work tomorrow and I
need to be really consistent about my routine.
I'm going to be exhausted if we go and do that thing after class
because it takes me X amount of time to like wind down, do my
night routine, etcetera. And then the last one, which I'm
(14:47):
not doing at all, curled up, sitting in my bed comfortably
for this episode. But changing your body posture.
So fake it till you make it, looking proud, competent,
lifting your head, body languagethat maintains eye contact.
You are acting in like a competent, proud, intentional
way with this behavior because you shouldn't be ashamed of it.
(15:09):
Your body language shouldn't be embarrassed or shameful because
this isn't a shame inducing situation.
Remember, it doesn't fit the facts.
We're changing that emotions because it's unjustified and
ineffective. So like I said, like if I am
late for work because I don't use my support systems to get
myself up on time and get restedenough that I can wake up for my
(15:29):
alarm in the morning, I should feel guilty because I've made a
commitment and I have a responsibility and I'm letting
others down South. In that situation, you do act in
accordance with the guilt, but not always with the shame, if
that makes sense. So in that situation, you make
public the behavior. So you like explain I have a
(15:52):
really challenging time with my sleep.
Normally I do all these things to try and set myself up for
success and make it as easy as possible for myself to have a
like seamless easy morning routine and not feel sleep
deprived. This is like something I'm
struggling with. Being vulnerable about that,
apologizing for the behavior, taking full accountability.
I didn't wake up on time. I didn't follow the routine that
(16:15):
allows me to be successful in waking up in the morning.
I scrolled on TikTok instead of going to bed.
I didn't put my book down. I didn't start my night routine
early enough. Whatever it is, repair the
transgression. So what harm did you cause in
the situation? Like I was late, which means
that I missed out on the 1st 30 minutes of work.
So I'm no stay 30 minutes later I caused someone else to have to
(16:38):
take over my workload because I was late and they had to cover
for me. I'm going to cover for that
person and apologize and make upthe same amount of work for
them, etcetera. Repairing the trust.
How long do you have to show up for work on time?
Is that person doesn't see you as someone who's not reliable or
consistent or able to show up and trust that when you say
(16:59):
you'll be there, you'll be thereon time.
Then you commit to avoiding thatmistake in the future to them
and to yourself, yourself that like you will be there on time
and you will wake up and that's not something that they have to
worry about. And then accepting the
consequences gracefully. Are you fired?
Is there like a pay doc? Do you have to apologize?
You have to reschedule something, stay late, whatever
it is, right? You accept those consequences
(17:21):
because the guilt is justified based on those actions.
You take accountability and thenthe all the way opposite actions
for shame when you do feel guilt.
So like, you should be guilty behaviorally, something was
ineffective, you committed a transgression.
But we're not shaming ourselves because like, you did something
wrong, but you as a person are not wrong, right?
(17:42):
Like that's guilt and shame. I should have clarified that
earlier, but it's a good thing to be aware of.
So guilt is I did something wrong.
Shame is I am wrong. So we can do something wrong,
but that doesn't mean that we'rewrong or bad as people.
So we can do all the behaviors to make reparations for doing
something wrong, but that doesn't mean we want to endorse
these like thoughts and feelingsthat we as a person are wrong
(18:04):
and bad. So the other two things that you
do is forgive yourself, acknowledging the causes of your
behavior. Like you guys can hear me being
like, I didn't set my alarm, I didn't get to bed early enough.
I didn't stop scrolling on TikTok.
Not I am a bad person, I am lazy.
I don't know how to wait. Like right.
Like it's what were the externalthings that led to this?
(18:24):
And then we let it go, we move on, we keep going with our lives
because it's not going to changethe outcome.
It's not going to change the relationship or the behavior to
continue to sit in it and Stew with that thought behavior
thing, whatever it is. And this is something that I do
feel I'm really good about is letting it go, being like
(18:46):
nothing is going to change at this point.
We just keep moving forward and giving yourself that grace.
So what am I doing now moving forward?
I am doing all those things withthe opposite action and over the
top opposite action for the shame in this context.
So I'm talking about it. I'm not apologizing.
I'm doing the behavior of like putting the scaffolding in
(19:08):
place, using my sleep hygiene routine and not feeling ashamed.
Like I need an early bedtime andlots of structure and support
and I can't just sleep for threehours and be fine the next day.
I'm being really mindful of how I'm thinking about my sleep,
knowing that like OK in the past, this is an emotional
vulnerability that like things around my sleep are not only
(19:31):
really challenging, but I have alot of feelings around them.
Like I'm more predisposed to feel ashamed or guilty or angry,
whatever it is. So when I'm having thoughts and
feelings about sleep, I'm payinga lot more attention to them and
I'm having more awareness aroundthe OK, like what's the root
fear there? What's the feeling?
What's the thought and why? And then I'm packing that,
(19:52):
checking the facts. If it's justified, we continue
on our way. If it's not justified, we do
opposite action. So I hope that you guys are not
also struggling with your slave because it's not a fun thing to
navigate. But I do hope that this was
helpful if there's something else that you keep shooting and
shaming yourself about to. Understand how to be more aware
(20:15):
of that and how to navigate thatin a really like self
compassionate and effective way and to get the outcome that you
want, right. So if you're also in that
position, I hope that it was helpful to kind of unpack,
intellectualize that a little bit and understand how you can
kind of counteract those feelings and thoughts and get
out of our own way because I feel like that's something I do
(20:37):
a lot and I'm sure you guys can relate to that as well.
So if you liked this little likemini solo where we just
reflected on things and thoughts, let me know.
If you want to name it to tame it and send me a message to DM
and e-mail anything to let me know what it is that you're
working on feeling less shame about, let me know.
I'd love to be a listening ear there to support however I can.
(20:58):
I really do hope this was helpful.
I want to do more episodes at some point on shame and do like
a book club episode on like Brene Brown's episodes in her
work because it's such an interesting thing.
And I think that's one of the things I struggle most with with
my mental health, which is why it's popping up here with
something as inconsequential asleep is shame and like really
internalizing and attaching our behaviors and our feelings to
(21:21):
like us as people. So more episodes on that coming
at some point, but I want to do more solos for you guys now that
I'm not as intellectually drained from classes and exams
and work and having a little bitmore mental bandwidth, which is
exciting. So if you guys have any requests
for solo episodes or things you want to hear on the podcast, let
me know. I hope this was helpful and I
(21:42):
hope you guys have a great week and I will talk to you next
Thursday if you enjoyed this episode.
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