August 1, 2025 • 40 mins
#226 in this week’s solo episode, i’m answering a question on so many of your minds right now: why can summer be so hard on our mental health?!
here, i’ll be sharing my favorite psychology insights on why our mental health can struggle in the summer before reacting to trending tiktoks, articles, and reddit posts on summer mental health. i wrap things up by explaining how you can set yourself up for success this summer (and in summers to come!).
i’ll cover topics including:
• a mental health mantra you need to hear
• making your environment work for your mental health
• my theory on why mental health can decline in the summer
• why school is actually good for mental health (shocking, i know)
• finding purpose + structure during summer break
• how to stay social + make friends in summer
• battling boredom + loneliness when you’re home for the summer
• choosing the right summer job for you
• the importance of actually relaxing during summer
• life hacks for getting out of a mental health rut
mentioned:
☕giveaway! want coffee on me? every month, i gift one listener a starbucks gift card to enter:
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2. dm me a screenshot on instagram
📲 bonus entries for story or tiktok tags!
© 2020 SHE PERSISTED LLC. all rights reserved.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Sheep Persisted, the Gen.
Z mental health podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton.
Let's get into it. One of the most ineffective
things that we can rely on is willpower.
And even if we have the goals tohave consistent routines and
challenge ourselves and do the things that we know are good for
ourselves, a lot of the time we fall to our systems.
Like willing our way into behaviors is really, really,
(00:21):
really ineffective. And that's why I think that so
many people either struggle withtheir mental health in the
summer or it becomes a great time to invest in their mental
health. Hello, hello and welcome back to
another episode of She Persisted.
If this is your first episode, welcome.
Happy summer, you guys. Honestly, we're nearing back to
school and ideally we would haverecorded this episode earlier in
(00:42):
the summer. However, I've moved twice in
three months and started a new full time job and things have
been crazy. Adulting is a lot of work, but I
wanted to get you guys this episode because I feel like it's
a really important topic. And the other benefit of me
delaying this is that we're at the point in the summer where
you're aware of whether what you're doing is working or if
(01:02):
it's not so effective. And you're also probably
thinking about, are there thingsI want to do differently next
year? And if so, now is the time to
implement those. So I'm hoping this doesn't come
too late. I'm hoping there's things that
you guys can take away from thisepisode, find helpful and
implement into your lives. So I want to start with a
philosophy piece of psychology research, mantra, whatever you
(01:24):
want to call it. And if this is someone's
specific quote, I don't have a citation for you, But it is a
concept that is backed by a lot of psychology research, and it's
something I think about often, which is that we don't rise to
our goals. We fall to the level of our
systems. I've talked about this before in
episodes, and I especially went into it in the Grit Lab recap
that I did when I took Angela Duckworth's class, and her
(01:46):
episode is coming out in 2 weeks.
We're staying alive here on the podcast.
I'm holding myself to it. It's happening.
It's an incredible interview. I'm so excited.
This was like literally probablymy number one guest of all time
that I wanted to have on the podcast and I can't wait for you
guys to listen. We also dive into this there,
but the idea is that as humans, one of the most scarce resources
we have, one of the most ineffective things that we can
(02:07):
rely on is willpower. And the idea of just like
mentally forcing ourselves not to do things or telling
ourselves we shouldn't do thingsor talking ourselves out of it,
like willing our way into behaviors is really, really,
really ineffective. Willpower is something that we
don't have a lot of. It's not very efficient, it's
not very good. It's not the what we should be
putting our goals and our mentalhealth on.
(02:29):
Like we should not be relying onwillpower.
We should be putting ourselves in context that are effective
for our mental health and we should be setting up systems
that result in our mental healthbeing effective.
And that means so many differentthings.
It means the relationships that you surround yourself with.
So am I surrounded by people that help me feel connected and
validated and heard and seen andencouraged me to socialize with
(02:51):
them on a regular basis and check in on me?
Or am I putting myself in relationships where a there's a
lot of willpower involved? I have to sees people or I'm
going to feel lonely like I haveto put myself out there or like
I'm going to feel isolated or I have to go above and beyond to
voice how I'm feeling so that I feel validated and seen.
Or I have to use a ton of scoping skills and set a ton of
(03:11):
boundaries and do a lot of work after the fact after seeing this
person because it's bad for my mental health.
Like how can we set ourselves upfor success in our relationships
instead of doing all this like willpower mental work after the
fact to make that either a neutral or positive experience.
Another area here is daily routine.
So like your sleep routine, whenyou're getting up, what you're
doing in the morning, what you're doing in the evening, the
(03:33):
content you're consuming, are those things that have like a
neutral or a net positive on your mental health?
Or are those things where you'reapplying like a lot of willpower
and intention and making choicesat every point to improve your
mental health? And so the routines and systems
of your day-to-day basis can also have a net positive or a
net negative on your mental health.
So I have found that like havinga nine to five, which I started
(03:55):
in June is really, really great and effective and helpful for
mental health. And it was honestly something I
was worried about because I've struggled with my sleep routine
in the past, a college schedule where you have different places
to be at different times of the day.
And there's a lot of like willpower and self initiative
involved. And are you going to study?
Are you going to see your friends?
What time are you doing meals? There's not like that set place
(04:16):
that you have to be at a certaintime.
And some people are great with doing that for themselves.
I am so proud of you. If that's you, that's not me.
And so being like, OK, every single day I have to be in the
office at 9:00 AM, which means that I have to be in bed by like
1011 the night before or I'm exhausted has been really
effective and really helpful. And so it's no longer a goal
that like, I would like to wake up at the same time every day.
(04:38):
And I would like to have a consistent schedule and I would
like to go to bed early, which is historically what it's been.
It's a system and it's a context, which is that I have to
be at work early. And obviously there's still that
choice point, right? Like technically you don't have
to be there. I could choose to not wake up, I
could choose to not set alarms, I could choose to go to bed
late. I could be late for work and get
fired, etcetera, right? Like the DBT, if we always have
(04:59):
a choice. But that repercussion being
significant enough that I'm like, I have to be there.
This is not a negotiable. And so as a result, my schedule
adjust has been really effectiveand really helpful.
And that's why I think that so many people either struggle with
their mental health in the summer, or it becomes a great
time to invest in their mental health.
Because whether you realize it or not, school is a really big
mental health protective factor.And I've talked about this
(05:20):
before, which is that a lot of people struggle with their
mental health for the first timewhen they go to college because
they lose those protective factors that have been built in
place in high school, which thatyou have that really strict
consistent schedule, which forces your sleep to like be to
some degree consistent. You have a lot of activities and
extracurricular, whether it's friends, sports, classes, clubs,
(05:42):
teams that you're on, where you are consistently seeing people.
You have a sense of purpose, youhave something to do.
You have a lot of built in relationships for you, which is
that you see your friends at thesame time every day in the same
places. You're living with your family,
you're eating meals with people.All of those things go away in
college. And so you no longer have that
protective factor of all of these things that are effective
(06:04):
for your mental health and kind of done for you.
And you as a result, have to create those for yourself.
And this is this idea of like goals versus systems.
I think a lot of people go to college with the goals of like,
I'd like to engage in healthy friendships.
I'd like to have a consistent routine.
I'd like to have a good sleep schedule.
I'd like to be involved in classes and clubs that I enjoy
(06:24):
and that are meaningful for me. And that doesn't always happen
versus in high school, I feel like that happens more because
it's a system. And I feel like people in
college are successful and effective with that when it's a
system. They see their friends that are
in certain classes or that they study with at the same time
every week, or that they make dinner plans with on their team
or club or organization that they're in, right?
(06:44):
Like these external things that force us to do these behaviors
that ideally we would do, but ashumans, we're not great at just
doing the things that we want todo and that are best for us.
That's really effective. And So what we're going to do is
we're going to do a little background on like why school
can be effective for mental health and what shows up for us
in the summer. And then I'm going to be
reacting to a bunch of Reddit posts and Tik Toks and like
(07:07):
articles related to summer mental health and people saying
like, I'm struggling or this isn't the best time.
I'd give some advice and tips and tricks on how you can set
yourself up for success during the rest of the summer and for
the rest of the school year. Generally, we know that school
tends to have a positive effect on mental health.
And you might be like, school isso stressful for me and actually
I hate going to school and like this is a huge area that's like
(07:30):
really difficult. And I totally, 100% understand
that. And that could be true for a lot
of people and especially depending on who your peers are
and the classes you're taking and if you feel supported.
But speaking about like the schedule that it provides and
the fact that you have to be somewhere and you're doing
something throughout the day. And hopefully you have at least
one class or one club or one activity that you would really
enjoy and you have friends that you can see consistently and set
(07:53):
meals that are occurring. Those are things that are good
for mental health. And there was a meta analysis
that was done. And a meta analysis is like a
giant collection and summary of like all the studies that have
been done, right? They look at all the research
they compiled and they see, OK, like, what do we know about this
thing? And so they did one about the
effects of summer holiday programs on mental health and
(08:14):
well-being. So obviously this was out of the
UK because we don't have summer holiday in the United States,
but they did find that school isthat system that allowed for
mental health to be improved. And that was through
consistently doing activities that had a positive impact on
like mental development. And mastery is something that's
really important in mental health.
This idea that we see ourselves getting better at things and we
(08:35):
see ourselves improving. There's also this really
important factor of mental health, which is the idea of
like engaging with things that are hard or pushing ourselves or
challenging ourselves. If we just sat in a room all day
and did nothing, like that's a pretty uninteresting, boring way
to live. Like being able to do hard
things, whether it's physically or mentally is important.
And a lot of the time, school gives us that system that allows
(08:59):
us to do that consistently. They also found that school was
the system that helped improve friendships.
It helped people socially develop effectively.
So we think about how we would develop socially.
Would we get the skills that we need?
Would we thrive as adults if we sat at home all day and did
nothing and interacted with no one versus engaging with peers
on a day-to-day basis? It's like a protective factor
(09:21):
against not developing those skills that we need in life.
It also helps with the behaviorswe engage in.
So physical activity versus justsitting around and doing nothing
great time. And again, there's a lot of
variability, right? Like you might be like,
actually, my summer is like super busy and I'm doing a lot
of things that are really great for my mental health and I'm
doing better now than I do during the school year.
But again, when we think about like humans on a large scale,
(09:44):
that like willpower is not effective.
And even if we have the goals tohave consistent routines and
challenge ourselves and do the things that we know are good for
ourselves, a lot of the time we fall to our systems.
And if our systems aren't supporting that and kind of
forcing us down that path, we'renot a great at doing the thing,
which sucks. But it's also helpful to be
aware of that so that we can setourselves up for success and put
(10:07):
ourselves in systems and contexts that allow us to
achieve those goals rather than relying on willpower.
So we know that schools are protective factor for our mental
health. It helps us have better mental
health through those behaviors, relationships, intellectual
engagement. So what happens when we don't
have that structure? What happens during the summer
if you're not engaged in like a camp or a program or an
(10:29):
internship or a work schedule? Like what happens when you don't
have a system that is kind of forcing you down that path of
meeting your goals? What happens when we lose the
system and are relying solely onthe goals we set?
We have another meta analysis that was done which showed
Children's Health, well-being and academic outcomes over the
summer holidays. And they did a scoping reviews.
They reviewed all the paper and kind of summarized takeaways,
(10:52):
and they found that over summer break, academic achievement
tends to fall, which makes sense.
We're not doing academics over the summer.
I don't think it's a bad thing, but it's something to be aware
of, which is why some people aremore stressed when they start
the school year. And they're like, this was so
much easier last spring. Like what happened?
The research supports that, right?
Like you haven't been working onthose things.
Those skills are harder to remember and implement.
There were physical health related challenges and more
(11:13):
loneliness. So I want to add the caveat here
that like summer break doesn't necessarily make your mental
health worse, right? Like, it's not like we go in
somewhere, We're like, Oh my God, we're all depressed, what
is happening? But we lose a protective factor,
which means we have more emotional vulnerability, right?
Like it's more on us to use our willpower rides to our goals,
(11:35):
create our own systems. And it can be easier to fall
into patterns where our mental health is struggling than if we
have all these effective things in place kind of done for us.
And if we're aware of that, we can create them for ourselves.
And so that's kind of the goal with this episode.
And so in addition to this idea that like, school's kind of a
buffer, right? It can kind of help us delay
mental health challenges or not succumb to them as intensively.
(11:58):
They found that for some kids, the connection and social
support that school offered meant that people were more
lonely, they had more anxiety, and that there were negative
impacts for mental health. And they also found that
disadvantaged children were particularly susceptible to
worsening mental health over thesummer.
So again, school is this built in buffer, right?
It's the system that's created and your summer plans might
(12:21):
create that system for you. But in the event that that
system doesn't exist and we're on our own to create our goals
and we lose those buffers, that's when we tend to struggle
more. So let's dive into what people
are saying about their mental health, what they are
experiencing and describing, andtalk about what we can do more
effectively, differently, and why you might be feeling that
(12:43):
way. So we're going to start with
this Reddit post titled Summertime Sadness.
Does anyone else feel this overwhelming feeling of sadness
when summer starts? Maybe it's the fact that I've
been so busy all year with school and I don't remember how
to relax. Just curious if anyone else can
relate. I think this is a really common
experience, especially like the first week after summer starts
or if you've been like working throughout the summer and then
(13:03):
you have a couple weeks off before you start school again,
like that period where you don'thave anything to do.
And this is again where I go back to the idea of like being
aware that school and work and activities act as a buffer.
And if we don't realize we're acting as a buffer, we can beg.
This feeling came out of nowhereand I'm not doing anything
differently. Like I'm not thinking about
things differently. I'm just going about my day.
(13:25):
Nothing happened, but all of a sudden I feel really sad and
unmotivated and like I don't have a purpose.
And so when we understand that whether it was intentional or
not, school was acting as like that sense of purpose and
mastery and engagement and social connection and routine.
And so without that, it completely makes sense that our
(13:45):
mental health would struggle because as humans, we need to
have something to do during the day.
We need that sense of purpose. We like to feel needed.
We like to feel like we're getting better at things.
We like to feel seen and connected and included.
And school does that for a lot of us.
It's that system that allows us to have that positive outcome
for mental health. And so I do think there's
(14:06):
something to be said for like, do we allow ourselves to slow
down and not just like continuously avoid our problems
by doing things? Because I am guilty of that.
I also think a really big thing that's happening here is that
you're losing that sense of purpose and mastery and
connection. And it's not something different
that you're doing when you wake up in the morning.
(14:27):
It's that the system you were operating in and the context of
your day-to-day life has greatlychanged and you've lost those
buffers. And so then the question
becomes, what can we do to bringthose back?
And there's a lot of different ways that we can do this.
And I would encourage you to have like an external system
versus one of your own. There was one somewhere where I
went home, my parents were like,you're going to go out of the
(14:49):
house to do work during the day.Like again, this idea of having
routine in a system and somewhere to go is important.
And I just like did not do it because again, we fall to the
level of our systems and our goals.
And for me, that was a goal. Like I'm going to go work at a
coffee shop or I'm going to go to the library and get stuff
done. Didn't happen.
Willpower. It's not very effective versus
like I have to be at work every day from 9:00 to 5:00 and it's
the summer it happens because it's that external force.
(15:12):
So if you are also feeling that sense of sadness around
summertime, I want you to think about what you're missing and
what you've lost as a buffer foryour mental health.
Was it the day-to-day routine? Like are you staying up super
late and sleeping super late? Was it going somewhere?
Like do you just wake up and nothave any plans for the day?
Was it relationships? Are you not seeing anyone?
(15:32):
Are you not seeing your friends?Are you not connecting?
Was it that's feeling of workingtowards something and getting
better at something? Can you add in hobbies or
reading or learning about a thing over the summer just for
fun? But continuing to have that
feeling of like, OK, I am makingprogress and getting better and
I'm proud of myself because of this thing that I'm doing.
(15:54):
So think about what is differentin your routine in day-to-day
now, what you might have lost and the impact of that.
Buffer that behavior of that thing on your mental health and
then try to solve for that. And I love some of the comments
on this post. I'll read a couple of them to
you. One person said my depression is
seriously exacerbated by lack ofstructure.
I lost my job a few months back and I had no idea how important
(16:17):
it was to have have something drag me out of bed and occupy my
time. I get it.
Like ideally we just get out of bed and do things during the
day, right? Like that's the goal.
We all think we could do that. We hope we can do that.
In practice, it doesn't really work that way.
And so these external things arereally effective and without
them we struggle. Another person said it is just
really nice to stay busy and I've structured in your life.
(16:37):
Without it, everything just feels kind of empty.
I also saw this TikTok post thatreally describes this feeling
and this concept really well andit says yay summer and quotes.
I scream as I slowly stop talking to everybody, stop
eating all my meals again and resort back to sleeping 24/7 to
cope with my feelings. And again, it's like those
things, whether you was intentional or not, kind of
(16:59):
happened as a result of school. You were forced to talk to
people, you were forced to see each other, you were forced to
do lunch in the middle of the day with your friends.
Some people have breakfast at school if they have a zero
period or an early class. In college you probably got
coffee or were at the dining hall, ran into your friends
throughout that. Maybe you had a family dinner,
met up with friends after studying.
Like this external system that forced it into your life and
(17:22):
then the sleeping 24/7 to avoid what you're experiencing.
Again, it's like our routines during the year don't always
allow for that. And not allowing for it can be
really effective. And like I said, that was
something I struggled with in college where I didn't have that
set structure and it was more ofa goal rather than a system.
And as a result your girl would sleep a lot, a lot of naps, a
(17:45):
lot of variability and what times I was sleeping.
And being aware of how importantthose systems are and how
unfortunately ineffective we areat just like achieving those
goals with willpower alone is really helpful to consider.
One person commented school is just a distraction and they've
creator responded exactly. Low key miss it now.
(18:05):
Another person said winter depression is easier to deal
with. Summer is raw dogging it.
No school friends busy, no coping.
Another person said summers so unhealthy for me.
I never eat because at school the food was free and my friends
fed me. Again, what are these systems
that are allowing for these likereally important needs to get
met versus just being left to our own devices or our own
(18:26):
day-to-day? So if this is you and you're
like, I noticed that I'm not talking to people as much.
My nutrition has shifted. I'm avoiding what I'm feeling.
I'm sleeping way more than usual.
I again want to go back to that idea of like, what artificial
things can you put in place? Because if we could just will
ourselves into better mental health or be like, I wish I did
these things and then I do them,we wouldn't have this problem,
(18:48):
right? And so I want you to get
creative and create those systems for yourself over the
summer. So what can you do?
We're going to give some ideas. This Reddit post is titled What
do you do in the summer as a college student?
They said the semester is about to end and I have no idea what
to do this summer. I already have a summer job that
I'm waiting to hear back from, but I'm trying to figure out
more social things to do too. Kids go to summer camp and
(19:08):
things like that. What do you do as an adult?
And I honestly have a hot take here and I should preface this
with I'm definitely more introverted.
Like today is a Saturday, I'm seeing no one and I'm loving
life. I'm recording this podcast for
you guys. I'm going to do some work.
I might have a work call or two,but like the weekends are my way
to recharge because I'm seeing people 9 through 5 if not later
(19:29):
Monday through Friday every day of the week.
And I think this depends on whatyour work commitment looks like.
Like if you're working with a lot of people that are older
than you, you don't make small talk, you don't update them on
how your days or week are going,or you don't call family or
friends and check in throughout the week.
You might have to be more intentional about filling your
social battery and going out andseeing people and doing fun
(19:50):
things. I have found for me that work
actually does fill my social battery in a good way.
And I love my Co workers. I love seeing them every day.
We chat, we catch up, I give them the updates on what's
happening with Taylor Swift. Speaking of which, I can't even
with the Travis Kelce post 13 slides, Taylor's and seven of
them tree pain put a people quote about how he's showing a
(20:10):
series today is I cannot like see my Co workers get to hear
about this. They don't care, but they they
get the updates. You guys get the updates also,
so I want you to not just tell yourself like, I have to
socialize, I have to work out, Ihave to have a job, I have to do
hobbies just because like I wantyou to pay attention to do I
feel like that need is getting met.
(20:31):
And if that need is getting met,then maybe you don't need to
force yourself into that contextand Add all these things to your
plate. I also want you to remember how
much we interact with people changes throughout our lifetime.
And it kind of like increases and peaks when we're in college.
In college, we are socializing more than ever at any other
point in our life. We're seeing people every day,
(20:53):
all the time. You might be going out, you see
people at classes, you're studying together.
It peaks like that young adulthood, teenage, college
years. It's going to go down after that
when you start working a job. A really big factor here is when
you start dating and have a longterm partner, you end up
spending more time with them than your friends and your
social battery gets filled in different ways.
(21:14):
So it's expected that when you're working over the summer
or when you're not in college orwhen you're at home, like you
will see people less and that might be OK.
You might be in a different season of life.
And just because you're seeing people less doesn't necessarily
mean that you'll feel lonely. If you are feeling lonely, then
that's a sign that like, OK, I need to see people more than I'm
currently seeing them. How can I get myself to do that?
(21:35):
But if you're like, I'm not really seeing people, but also
when I really think about it andreflect, I'm not feeling unseen
and unheard and disconnected andlonely, maybe that's OK.
And maybe your work or volunteering or research is
feeling that social battery and that's great and that's amazing.
And so paying attention to thesethings that we're like, oh, we
should do or like that's good versus like, do I need to do
(21:58):
that? Do I want to do that?
So I just want that reminder, right?
Like if you come home after college and you're like, Oh my
God, I saw my friend 6 times a day every day.
And now I'm seeing people like twice a week.
Ask yourself, OK, how do I feel about that?
Am I feeling lonely and disconnected?
And if I'm not feeling lonely and disconnected, just give
yourself that mental reminder. Why?
Which is that I am maybe even like abnormally social in
(22:20):
college because of the context that I'm in.
And I also maybe don't need thatmuch socialization to feel
connected and seen. And so that's OK.
And that's just like the stage of life you're at.
And you don't have to like forceyourself into these contexts
that you don't need or want to be in.
I also want to give like kind ofa hot take, which is that I feel
more connected to people when I am staying up to date on their
(22:42):
social media and they're stayingup to date on mine.
And I really think this depends on the mindset that you bring to
it and how you're engaging with that.
But like I posted about moving this week and like, what a
process it was. And I'm like, first big girl
apartment, so exciting and seeing all these people from
different stages of life, like friends from boarding school and
friends from middle school and one of my babysitters from when
(23:06):
I was in elementary school, swiping up on the story and
being, Oh my gosh, so excited. Like, where are you living now?
What's up? Give me the updates.
I could have reached out and texted or called and given them
those updates and then they would have found out.
But by sharing those things and kind of like putting those
updates out there, we were able to connect and feel updated.
And it was like easier to feel like, OK, we're updated on each
(23:27):
other's lives and what's going on.
And I think that's also true forother friends.
Like I have friends who are abroad this summer working a new
job or traveling a lot for work and seeing kind of like where
they're at or what they're doingon their day-to-day basis.
It's kind of parasocial. But also next time we talk or
text, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I saw that.
Like I'm updated. So I feel like the important
(23:47):
caveat there is that are you using these updates that you're
posting or they're posting to inform the conversations that
you actually have? Or are you just like a quiet
consumer and just seeing these things and it doesn't actually
lead to an actual real relationship connection.
So be aware of that. But that is something that I
also find fills my social cup and is a good buffer.
(24:07):
I also want to add something really interesting here that I
heard on the psychology of her 20s.
She did an episode on parasocialrelationships and she did talk
about how research has shown that watching the same content
creators, listening to the same content creators, watching the
same shows, that parasocial relationship does act as a
buffer to loneliness. So if you're like listening to
the podcast every week, love you.
(24:29):
But that's actually something that serves as a buffer of like
continuously getting updates on someone, continuously feeling
engaged and vested. And so having these TV shows
that you continue to go back to and watch, having these creators
that you continuously turn into,it's not a replacement for
relationships. It's not going to make you feel
less isolated, but it's a buffer.
(24:51):
And we want to put as many buffers in place as possible to
reduce our emotional vulnerability, especially during
a season like summer where we are emotionally vulnerable
because that large system of school is not in place.
OK, this post from Reddit is titled What will you guys do to
survive the summer? I'm going home for the summer
and I know that I will be bored out of my mind.
I will lifeguard but other than that I don't know what to do to
(25:13):
stop from going stir crazy. I moved back to my childhood
home a few months before starting college.
After six years. I do not have any friends here.
Winter break was horrible. I'm so bored when I'm home.
I mean, I have fun pursuing my hobbies such as half marathon
training, working out, reading, etcetera, but I get burnt out
from the lack of social connections there.
My lifeguard friends are pretty mid to be honest and we just
(25:34):
hang out at work. What else can I do to enjoy the
summer? And so this is a great example
of work social relationships, not filling your social cup and
being really aware of that and then being like, OK, so I got to
add other relationships here because this is not going to cut
it. And there's some really great
comments of people feeling the same way.
This person says, I understand you so much.
It's validating that other people feel this way.
(25:54):
It can be hard when most of yourfriends are at college and you
all go your separate ways for the summer.
I only have a couple of good friends at home.
It's difficult to see my collegefriends over breaks because we
all live in different parts of the country.
And there's some like very mixedadvice in the comments.
We'll read a couple of them, butmy biggest advice here is like
you're aware that your social battery isn't being filled by
your current routine, so you're going to need to supplement
(26:14):
that. And again, we're going to rely
on systems, not goals. So like, do you have a time
every week where you call your friends at the same point to
catch up and see what you're doing?
Or when you're driving to work, are you always going to try and
give your friends a call and if they pick up, great, If not,
that's okay. I also think there's something
to be said for having something you're looking forward to as far
as like social relationships. Like if your friends don't live
(26:34):
near you, can you plan a weekendwhere one of you guys visits
each other? And so you're like, OK, I'm like
not feeling super fulfilled in my work relationships, but one
of my friends is going to visit at the end of this month and I'm
going to get my social battery super filled by seeing them
then. And then there's some also
comments related to other systems that you could put in
place. Taking classes over the summer,
working a part time job, joininga gym, doing an internship.
(26:58):
Like if the lifeguarding job isn't filling your social cup,
are there other things that you could show up and do that would
allow you to meet new people? I also think this is something
really important to think about when you're planning your summer
or your post grad life or the classes that you're taking,
which is does that thing that you're committing to fill these
other buckets and give you a system that sets you up for
(27:20):
success? So this past spring, I was
trying to decide between two different research jobs.
They were both time, one of themwas in a bigger city, probably
more social opportunities, a smaller lab, and the other one
was in the middle of nowhere, which is where I'm at,
Binghamton, NY, and it was a larger lab.
I would be one of five people starting who just graduated
(27:41):
college. There was a ton of undergrads.
There was a bunch of grad students.
The professor who leads the lab is really hands on and they're
on a day-to-day basis. And almost every day we would
have families coming in that we would be doing 3 hours of data
collection. So interviews, talking to them,
getting them set up with tasks, and the other one was a virtual
study. So you get on Zoom with people,
(28:03):
you ask them questions, you talkthem through what they're going
to be doing the following week. There were other people that
were at the same stage of the career, so post backs or
research assistants that were working full time, but it was
somewhat remote, like people would work hybrid.
They weren't there in the officeevery day from 9:00 to 5:00.
The professor who led the lab was engaged but also doing other
(28:25):
things. So not there in the office every
single day. And when I thought about like,
OK, like what would allow me to be successful and if I took the
job that was like a smaller lab and a remote study, I would set
the goal of being social and meeting people.
Like, would that happen? It's so much easier if it's a
system and context that's already in place, which is that
(28:45):
I was starting the same time as four other people.
Those are built in people that you can be friends with and
interact with. Tons of grad students who I
could talk to and get support and get to know a boss who was
really hands on and engaged and all all these people it would be
interacting with through the actual research we're doing on a
day-to-day basis. And so as a post grad, knowing
(29:05):
that like, OK, I'm going from being in college, which is our
most social period, to being less social, what can I do to
ease that transition and set myself up for success?
Also knowing that I struggled incollege with my sleep and daily
routine by not having that structure.
And that was honestly a really big thing that informed the
decision because what they were studying and the research
(29:25):
opportunities were pretty similar.
It was just that day-to-day thatwas really different.
And choosing the day-to-day thatput me in a system that set me
up for success was honestly, I think a great choice in so far
has been amazing. So it's probably a little bit
late for this summer, but if you're choosing your classes for
the next semester or you're maybe starting a job this fall,
I want you to think about that, which is that if you're looking
(29:48):
at different roles and one of them offers more social
engagement, a larger team, more connection, can you also get
your social battery filled from work versus being like, OK, I'm
working 40 hours a week. I now also have to figure out
how to see friends and do that on top of it, which is honestly
a lot to balance. And then some of the other
(30:08):
comments in here, I love a lot of people suggesting learning a
new skill, studying for a big test, like if you were taking
the GRE or the MCAT or something, using that time
during the summer, really engaging in a hobby.
This idea of like mastery, like you lose that during the summer
because it's built in place during school.
So how can you focus your time on getting better at something,
engaging with something that youenjoy and using that to utilize
(30:30):
your time and acting as a bufferfor those relationships and
loneliness? I also think that another thing
that people don't think about asa buffer for social
relationships is if you're dating, like we talked about how
as you kind of progress in life and you get to the stage of life
of having a serious partner, that becomes a lot of your
social battery. And when you have kids, like
that's a big part of your socialbattery.
You see your friends less and less because that need is filled
(30:52):
and you don't have as much time if you're someone who has like a
serious partner and you're not seeing them during the summer
because they're at school or youjust went through a breakup.
I also want you to be really aware of this, like, social
battery thing because that's been acting as a buffer that's
been a lot of your social interaction and relationships.
And you probably will feel more lonely once you're not having
that and once you're missing outon that connection in a
(31:13):
consistent way. So how can you fill that void,
if you will, with friendships and other connections as you
navigate that new stage of life?OK another post because we
talked about what you're choosing to do during the summer
and can you choose to do something that is like work but
also social? This person said.
I just realized that college students can probably never have
(31:35):
a relaxing summer. Just finished my first year of
college and I've started an internship this summer.
I was reflecting earlier and realized that most college
students can never really relax during the summer.
They're either taking summer classes, doing an internship and
work to make money, studying abroad, or busy with whatever
else. Now that my internship is
started, my summer is practically over.
(31:55):
I'm also living in an apartment next year and stressing that all
the shopping for that college summers suck.
Lol yes the apartment shopping is no joke.
Eventually at the beginning thatI moved, I'm loving it.
But it also is like a lot of like decision fatigue and things
to figure out and set up. So side note, I can relate, but
this is the importance of makingit sustainable and setting
yourself up with the things thatyou choose to do and the
(32:18):
commitments that you make. The perspective that I think
this person holds is that like, I have a job and then on top of
that, how am I also going to do fun things and see friends and
engage all these things, right? Like, I think best case
scenario, we're putting ourselves in context that check
multiple boxes. So hopefully you're doing
something for work that is aligned with your interests,
(32:40):
whether it's working with peopleor if you're doing research and
that's a step in your career or you find the day-to-day tasks
that you're doing super fascinating and fulfilling.
Like can you get that mental engagement and fulfillment
through work? Can you get the social
connection through work? Like can you still of course see
your friends over the summer? But ideally you would see people
(33:01):
at work and feel engaged and connected through those
relationships with your coworkers and get as many of
those needs met as possible through that work context.
Similarly fun things. Do you do fun things with your
coworkers? Are there things in your
day-to-day work that are enjoyable?
Is it part of your day-to-day routine?
Like if you really like working out and that's fun for you, are
(33:21):
you doing that in the morning orthe evening?
Another thing here also is like if you're getting your social
and intellectual needs met through work, then you have all
of this other time to do hobbiesor travel or explore your city.
Like you can actually use that time to do the fun things versus
being OK, I've worked 40 hours doing work and I don't have to
spend like 10 hours a week also seeing my friends because my
(33:42):
social battery is not met. And also, I'm really not feeling
intellectually engaged to like another 10 hours a week reading
or consuming content or working on learning this new thing
because I don't have that like sense of mastery or engagement.
And that's important for me. And also what am I doing for fun
and hobbies and like spending mytime?
So I want you guys to think about when you choose your
classes, when you choose who you're living with, when you're
(34:03):
choosing what jobs to accept, what labs to join, Like how can
you get as many of those needs met as possible in that context?
And so the TLDR here is really that you need to make it
sustainable. If you start the summer burnt
out, if you start the school year burnt out, if you start
your job burnt out, you're setting yourself up for failure.
(34:23):
If you just keep doing that samething, you're just going to
continue to burn out. And there's also a TikTok
related to this, kind of which this creator said to the college
girl lying in bed feeling guiltyfor doing nothing.
You've been strong for so long. You've carried so much.
Rest isn't lazy, it's healing. You don't have to earn peace.
You already deserve it. And this again goes back to
earlier, like if you're socializing with less people and
(34:43):
that feels OK, that's a win. If you are doing less work on a
day-to-day basis than you did during the semester, but you
feel OK, that's a win. So I want you to pay attention
to how you're feeling, which is that it actually might be
sustainable and even a positive experience to have less
commitments and less socializingand less work to do over the
summer. And that might be good for your
(35:05):
mental health to rest and recharge.
We just want to pay attention tothough, is our mental health
sustainable? Are we feeling good about our
day-to-day routine? And if that looks like more
resting and recharging and less on your plate, amazing.
We just want to make sure that doesn't come at the expense of
our mental health or even cause mental health challenges for
ourselves because we've lost allthose systems and buffers.
(35:26):
So now I want to talk about like, this sounds great, right?
Let's put ourselves in context and systems to help our mental
health thrive. But like, how do you even do
that? Especially if you're depressed
and have motivation? You're like, OK, that would have
been great to know a year ago when I committed to this summer
routine or I knew to find a job or take classes.
But now I'm two months into the summer and my mental health is
(35:47):
not in a good spot. And like willpower or forcing
myself to do things is really not doing the trick.
And there's a really great TikTok about this.
It said depression is so weird because what you mean I'm an all
inclusive vacation and still would rather just go home and be
alone in my room? Don't get me wrong I'm super
grateful I'm just constantly tired and fatigued.
And another post from a therapist on TikTok this one the
(36:08):
client says I feel like I'm wasting my summer being
depressed And the therapist saysif you weren't depressed what
would you want to do? And the client says go for
walks, go swimming, lay in the sun read.
And the therapist response It sounds like your depression is
keeping you from living the clients.
Like what do I do? And the therapist says do all of
those things anyway. And the client says even though
(36:28):
I'm depressed, the therapist responds to them, especially
because you're depressed. And so the idea is like, we
don't need to wait to feel better to do these things.
And I honestly think that a lot of these things will make us
feel better. So again, I want to go back to
the beginning of this because I feel like when we want to change
things, it's natural to set a goal and it's natural to set an
(36:48):
intention. It doesn't feel as natural to
put ourselves in context that result in the goal or or set up
really strict systems that as a result meet that goal.
But that's what I think is important.
And it's harder. It's not what you want to do
when you're depressed. You're like, it's probably not
going to work like this sounds like a lot of energy.
(37:09):
I don't want to do that. And doing that thing is what is
going to help alleviate and reduce the challenges that
you're experiencing. So yes, ideally do those things
that you want to do, set those goals and do them because you're
depressed, because it will make you feel better.
And A, just willing yourself to do those things doesn't always
(37:32):
work, especially when you're depressed.
And B, just because you're reading a book or on the beach
or going on a walk when you're depressed doesn't mean that
you'll immediately feel better. And in fact, you might just be
like, well, but I'm still depressed.
I'd rather be in my bed. So I get that.
But I want you to remember that setting these goals and choosing
what's good for your mental health at every choice point is
(37:53):
going to be an uphill battle versus putting yourselves in
context and systems that force yourself to do those things.
And all you have to do is show up.
Like, I just want you to have toshow up.
That's the thing that I want youto commit to and have to do.
And I want those other things tocome as a result and as a
byproduct. So I want you to think about the
context in the systems and implement that rather than all
(38:14):
these micro goals and choice points and forcing yourselves to
do things with willpower. So I hope that was helpful.
I hope you guys have a better understanding of how important
systems are for our mental health and why you might be
struggling with your mental health more over the summer and
why summer can be a great opportunity to get better at
creating systems that support our mental health and getting
(38:35):
our needs met or relaxing and recharging, especially when that
doesn't come at the expense of our mental health.
So let me know how you're doing this summer.
I would love to hear from you guys about how summer is going
for you, what you're doing, what's worked, what hasn't, and
send me Adm or a message with your favorite summer memory so
far. I would love to hear if you
found this helpful. Make sure to leave a review.
(38:57):
Subscribe. Over 50% of you that listen to
the podcast are not subscribed. So hit the subscribe button,
turn on automatic downloads. Make sure to watch the podcast
on YouTube and Spotify. You guys can see me sitting in
my new apartment with my really cute branded little microphone
that says she persisted. I hope you guys have a great
rest of your July and August andyou are having a sustainable
(39:18):
balanced summer with some helpful systems in place and
thriving mentally. If you guys like the solo
episodes like these are we kind of review and react to what
people are experiencing and giveadvice and explain like why you
might be feeling that way and what we can do differently.
Let me know. And with that, we'll be back
next week with a new type of episode that I think you guys
(39:38):
will absolutely love. It is also related to
depression. So if that last question hit
hard and hit home, make sure to tune in.
But yeah, follow along at that She Persisted podcast.
Let me know what you thought of the episode.
You can leave a comment on Spotify.
I'll be reading all of them. And I hope you have a great rest
of your week and I will see you guys next Thursday.
(39:58):
If you enjoyed this episode, if she persisted, make sure to
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content. Thanks for listening and keep
persisting.
Welcome to Sheep Persisted, the Gen.
Z mental health podcast. I'm your host, Sadie Sutton.
Let's get into it. One of the most ineffective
things that we can rely on is willpower.
And even if we have the goals tohave consistent routines and
challenge ourselves and do the things that we know are good for
ourselves, a lot of the time we fall to our systems.
Like willing our way into behaviors is really, really,
(00:21):
really ineffective. And that's why I think that so
many people either struggle withtheir mental health in the
summer or it becomes a great time to invest in their mental
health. Hello, hello and welcome back to
another episode of She Persisted.
If this is your first episode, welcome.
Happy summer, you guys. Honestly, we're nearing back to
school and ideally we would haverecorded this episode earlier in
(00:42):
the summer. However, I've moved twice in
three months and started a new full time job and things have
been crazy. Adulting is a lot of work, but I
wanted to get you guys this episode because I feel like it's
a really important topic. And the other benefit of me
delaying this is that we're at the point in the summer where
you're aware of whether what you're doing is working or if
(01:02):
it's not so effective. And you're also probably
thinking about, are there thingsI want to do differently next
year? And if so, now is the time to
implement those. So I'm hoping this doesn't come
too late. I'm hoping there's things that
you guys can take away from thisepisode, find helpful and
implement into your lives. So I want to start with a
philosophy piece of psychology research, mantra, whatever you
(01:24):
want to call it. And if this is someone's
specific quote, I don't have a citation for you, But it is a
concept that is backed by a lot of psychology research, and it's
something I think about often, which is that we don't rise to
our goals. We fall to the level of our
systems. I've talked about this before in
episodes, and I especially went into it in the Grit Lab recap
that I did when I took Angela Duckworth's class, and her
(01:46):
episode is coming out in 2 weeks.
We're staying alive here on the podcast.
I'm holding myself to it. It's happening.
It's an incredible interview. I'm so excited.
This was like literally probablymy number one guest of all time
that I wanted to have on the podcast and I can't wait for you
guys to listen. We also dive into this there,
but the idea is that as humans, one of the most scarce resources
we have, one of the most ineffective things that we can
(02:07):
rely on is willpower. And the idea of just like
mentally forcing ourselves not to do things or telling
ourselves we shouldn't do thingsor talking ourselves out of it,
like willing our way into behaviors is really, really,
really ineffective. Willpower is something that we
don't have a lot of. It's not very efficient, it's
not very good. It's not the what we should be
putting our goals and our mentalhealth on.
(02:29):
Like we should not be relying onwillpower.
We should be putting ourselves in context that are effective
for our mental health and we should be setting up systems
that result in our mental healthbeing effective.
And that means so many differentthings.
It means the relationships that you surround yourself with.
So am I surrounded by people that help me feel connected and
validated and heard and seen andencouraged me to socialize with
(02:51):
them on a regular basis and check in on me?
Or am I putting myself in relationships where a there's a
lot of willpower involved? I have to sees people or I'm
going to feel lonely like I haveto put myself out there or like
I'm going to feel isolated or I have to go above and beyond to
voice how I'm feeling so that I feel validated and seen.
Or I have to use a ton of scoping skills and set a ton of
(03:11):
boundaries and do a lot of work after the fact after seeing this
person because it's bad for my mental health.
Like how can we set ourselves upfor success in our relationships
instead of doing all this like willpower mental work after the
fact to make that either a neutral or positive experience.
Another area here is daily routine.
So like your sleep routine, whenyou're getting up, what you're
doing in the morning, what you're doing in the evening, the
(03:33):
content you're consuming, are those things that have like a
neutral or a net positive on your mental health?
Or are those things where you'reapplying like a lot of willpower
and intention and making choicesat every point to improve your
mental health? And so the routines and systems
of your day-to-day basis can also have a net positive or a
net negative on your mental health.
So I have found that like havinga nine to five, which I started
(03:55):
in June is really, really great and effective and helpful for
mental health. And it was honestly something I
was worried about because I've struggled with my sleep routine
in the past, a college schedule where you have different places
to be at different times of the day.
And there's a lot of like willpower and self initiative
involved. And are you going to study?
Are you going to see your friends?
What time are you doing meals? There's not like that set place
(04:16):
that you have to be at a certaintime.
And some people are great with doing that for themselves.
I am so proud of you. If that's you, that's not me.
And so being like, OK, every single day I have to be in the
office at 9:00 AM, which means that I have to be in bed by like
1011 the night before or I'm exhausted has been really
effective and really helpful. And so it's no longer a goal
that like, I would like to wake up at the same time every day.
(04:38):
And I would like to have a consistent schedule and I would
like to go to bed early, which is historically what it's been.
It's a system and it's a context, which is that I have to
be at work early. And obviously there's still that
choice point, right? Like technically you don't have
to be there. I could choose to not wake up, I
could choose to not set alarms, I could choose to go to bed
late. I could be late for work and get
fired, etcetera, right? Like the DBT, if we always have
(04:59):
a choice. But that repercussion being
significant enough that I'm like, I have to be there.
This is not a negotiable. And so as a result, my schedule
adjust has been really effectiveand really helpful.
And that's why I think that so many people either struggle with
their mental health in the summer, or it becomes a great
time to invest in their mental health.
Because whether you realize it or not, school is a really big
mental health protective factor.And I've talked about this
(05:20):
before, which is that a lot of people struggle with their
mental health for the first timewhen they go to college because
they lose those protective factors that have been built in
place in high school, which thatyou have that really strict
consistent schedule, which forces your sleep to like be to
some degree consistent. You have a lot of activities and
extracurricular, whether it's friends, sports, classes, clubs,
(05:42):
teams that you're on, where you are consistently seeing people.
You have a sense of purpose, youhave something to do.
You have a lot of built in relationships for you, which is
that you see your friends at thesame time every day in the same
places. You're living with your family,
you're eating meals with people.All of those things go away in
college. And so you no longer have that
protective factor of all of these things that are effective
(06:04):
for your mental health and kind of done for you.
And you as a result, have to create those for yourself.
And this is this idea of like goals versus systems.
I think a lot of people go to college with the goals of like,
I'd like to engage in healthy friendships.
I'd like to have a consistent routine.
I'd like to have a good sleep schedule.
I'd like to be involved in classes and clubs that I enjoy
(06:24):
and that are meaningful for me. And that doesn't always happen
versus in high school, I feel like that happens more because
it's a system. And I feel like people in
college are successful and effective with that when it's a
system. They see their friends that are
in certain classes or that they study with at the same time
every week, or that they make dinner plans with on their team
or club or organization that they're in, right?
(06:44):
Like these external things that force us to do these behaviors
that ideally we would do, but ashumans, we're not great at just
doing the things that we want todo and that are best for us.
That's really effective. And So what we're going to do is
we're going to do a little background on like why school
can be effective for mental health and what shows up for us
in the summer. And then I'm going to be
reacting to a bunch of Reddit posts and Tik Toks and like
(07:07):
articles related to summer mental health and people saying
like, I'm struggling or this isn't the best time.
I'd give some advice and tips and tricks on how you can set
yourself up for success during the rest of the summer and for
the rest of the school year. Generally, we know that school
tends to have a positive effect on mental health.
And you might be like, school isso stressful for me and actually
I hate going to school and like this is a huge area that's like
(07:30):
really difficult. And I totally, 100% understand
that. And that could be true for a lot
of people and especially depending on who your peers are
and the classes you're taking and if you feel supported.
But speaking about like the schedule that it provides and
the fact that you have to be somewhere and you're doing
something throughout the day. And hopefully you have at least
one class or one club or one activity that you would really
enjoy and you have friends that you can see consistently and set
(07:53):
meals that are occurring. Those are things that are good
for mental health. And there was a meta analysis
that was done. And a meta analysis is like a
giant collection and summary of like all the studies that have
been done, right? They look at all the research
they compiled and they see, OK, like, what do we know about this
thing? And so they did one about the
effects of summer holiday programs on mental health and
(08:14):
well-being. So obviously this was out of the
UK because we don't have summer holiday in the United States,
but they did find that school isthat system that allowed for
mental health to be improved. And that was through
consistently doing activities that had a positive impact on
like mental development. And mastery is something that's
really important in mental health.
This idea that we see ourselves getting better at things and we
(08:35):
see ourselves improving. There's also this really
important factor of mental health, which is the idea of
like engaging with things that are hard or pushing ourselves or
challenging ourselves. If we just sat in a room all day
and did nothing, like that's a pretty uninteresting, boring way
to live. Like being able to do hard
things, whether it's physically or mentally is important.
And a lot of the time, school gives us that system that allows
(08:59):
us to do that consistently. They also found that school was
the system that helped improve friendships.
It helped people socially develop effectively.
So we think about how we would develop socially.
Would we get the skills that we need?
Would we thrive as adults if we sat at home all day and did
nothing and interacted with no one versus engaging with peers
on a day-to-day basis? It's like a protective factor
(09:21):
against not developing those skills that we need in life.
It also helps with the behaviorswe engage in.
So physical activity versus justsitting around and doing nothing
great time. And again, there's a lot of
variability, right? Like you might be like,
actually, my summer is like super busy and I'm doing a lot
of things that are really great for my mental health and I'm
doing better now than I do during the school year.
But again, when we think about like humans on a large scale,
(09:44):
that like willpower is not effective.
And even if we have the goals tohave consistent routines and
challenge ourselves and do the things that we know are good for
ourselves, a lot of the time we fall to our systems.
And if our systems aren't supporting that and kind of
forcing us down that path, we'renot a great at doing the thing,
which sucks. But it's also helpful to be
aware of that so that we can setourselves up for success and put
(10:07):
ourselves in systems and contexts that allow us to
achieve those goals rather than relying on willpower.
So we know that schools are protective factor for our mental
health. It helps us have better mental
health through those behaviors, relationships, intellectual
engagement. So what happens when we don't
have that structure? What happens during the summer
if you're not engaged in like a camp or a program or an
(10:29):
internship or a work schedule? Like what happens when you don't
have a system that is kind of forcing you down that path of
meeting your goals? What happens when we lose the
system and are relying solely onthe goals we set?
We have another meta analysis that was done which showed
Children's Health, well-being and academic outcomes over the
summer holidays. And they did a scoping reviews.
They reviewed all the paper and kind of summarized takeaways,
(10:52):
and they found that over summer break, academic achievement
tends to fall, which makes sense.
We're not doing academics over the summer.
I don't think it's a bad thing, but it's something to be aware
of, which is why some people aremore stressed when they start
the school year. And they're like, this was so
much easier last spring. Like what happened?
The research supports that, right?
Like you haven't been working onthose things.
Those skills are harder to remember and implement.
There were physical health related challenges and more
(11:13):
loneliness. So I want to add the caveat here
that like summer break doesn't necessarily make your mental
health worse, right? Like, it's not like we go in
somewhere, We're like, Oh my God, we're all depressed, what
is happening? But we lose a protective factor,
which means we have more emotional vulnerability, right?
Like it's more on us to use our willpower rides to our goals,
(11:35):
create our own systems. And it can be easier to fall
into patterns where our mental health is struggling than if we
have all these effective things in place kind of done for us.
And if we're aware of that, we can create them for ourselves.
And so that's kind of the goal with this episode.
And so in addition to this idea that like, school's kind of a
buffer, right? It can kind of help us delay
mental health challenges or not succumb to them as intensively.
(11:58):
They found that for some kids, the connection and social
support that school offered meant that people were more
lonely, they had more anxiety, and that there were negative
impacts for mental health. And they also found that
disadvantaged children were particularly susceptible to
worsening mental health over thesummer.
So again, school is this built in buffer, right?
It's the system that's created and your summer plans might
(12:21):
create that system for you. But in the event that that
system doesn't exist and we're on our own to create our goals
and we lose those buffers, that's when we tend to struggle
more. So let's dive into what people
are saying about their mental health, what they are
experiencing and describing, andtalk about what we can do more
effectively, differently, and why you might be feeling that
(12:43):
way. So we're going to start with
this Reddit post titled Summertime Sadness.
Does anyone else feel this overwhelming feeling of sadness
when summer starts? Maybe it's the fact that I've
been so busy all year with school and I don't remember how
to relax. Just curious if anyone else can
relate. I think this is a really common
experience, especially like the first week after summer starts
or if you've been like working throughout the summer and then
(13:03):
you have a couple weeks off before you start school again,
like that period where you don'thave anything to do.
And this is again where I go back to the idea of like being
aware that school and work and activities act as a buffer.
And if we don't realize we're acting as a buffer, we can beg.
This feeling came out of nowhereand I'm not doing anything
differently. Like I'm not thinking about
things differently. I'm just going about my day.
(13:25):
Nothing happened, but all of a sudden I feel really sad and
unmotivated and like I don't have a purpose.
And so when we understand that whether it was intentional or
not, school was acting as like that sense of purpose and
mastery and engagement and social connection and routine.
And so without that, it completely makes sense that our
(13:45):
mental health would struggle because as humans, we need to
have something to do during the day.
We need that sense of purpose. We like to feel needed.
We like to feel like we're getting better at things.
We like to feel seen and connected and included.
And school does that for a lot of us.
It's that system that allows us to have that positive outcome
for mental health. And so I do think there's
(14:06):
something to be said for like, do we allow ourselves to slow
down and not just like continuously avoid our problems
by doing things? Because I am guilty of that.
I also think a really big thing that's happening here is that
you're losing that sense of purpose and mastery and
connection. And it's not something different
that you're doing when you wake up in the morning.
(14:27):
It's that the system you were operating in and the context of
your day-to-day life has greatlychanged and you've lost those
buffers. And so then the question
becomes, what can we do to bringthose back?
And there's a lot of different ways that we can do this.
And I would encourage you to have like an external system
versus one of your own. There was one somewhere where I
went home, my parents were like,you're going to go out of the
(14:49):
house to do work during the day.Like again, this idea of having
routine in a system and somewhere to go is important.
And I just like did not do it because again, we fall to the
level of our systems and our goals.
And for me, that was a goal. Like I'm going to go work at a
coffee shop or I'm going to go to the library and get stuff
done. Didn't happen.
Willpower. It's not very effective versus
like I have to be at work every day from 9:00 to 5:00 and it's
the summer it happens because it's that external force.
(15:12):
So if you are also feeling that sense of sadness around
summertime, I want you to think about what you're missing and
what you've lost as a buffer foryour mental health.
Was it the day-to-day routine? Like are you staying up super
late and sleeping super late? Was it going somewhere?
Like do you just wake up and nothave any plans for the day?
Was it relationships? Are you not seeing anyone?
(15:32):
Are you not seeing your friends?Are you not connecting?
Was it that's feeling of workingtowards something and getting
better at something? Can you add in hobbies or
reading or learning about a thing over the summer just for
fun? But continuing to have that
feeling of like, OK, I am makingprogress and getting better and
I'm proud of myself because of this thing that I'm doing.
(15:54):
So think about what is differentin your routine in day-to-day
now, what you might have lost and the impact of that.
Buffer that behavior of that thing on your mental health and
then try to solve for that. And I love some of the comments
on this post. I'll read a couple of them to
you. One person said my depression is
seriously exacerbated by lack ofstructure.
I lost my job a few months back and I had no idea how important
(16:17):
it was to have have something drag me out of bed and occupy my
time. I get it.
Like ideally we just get out of bed and do things during the
day, right? Like that's the goal.
We all think we could do that. We hope we can do that.
In practice, it doesn't really work that way.
And so these external things arereally effective and without
them we struggle. Another person said it is just
really nice to stay busy and I've structured in your life.
(16:37):
Without it, everything just feels kind of empty.
I also saw this TikTok post thatreally describes this feeling
and this concept really well andit says yay summer and quotes.
I scream as I slowly stop talking to everybody, stop
eating all my meals again and resort back to sleeping 24/7 to
cope with my feelings. And again, it's like those
things, whether you was intentional or not, kind of
(16:59):
happened as a result of school. You were forced to talk to
people, you were forced to see each other, you were forced to
do lunch in the middle of the day with your friends.
Some people have breakfast at school if they have a zero
period or an early class. In college you probably got
coffee or were at the dining hall, ran into your friends
throughout that. Maybe you had a family dinner,
met up with friends after studying.
Like this external system that forced it into your life and
(17:22):
then the sleeping 24/7 to avoid what you're experiencing.
Again, it's like our routines during the year don't always
allow for that. And not allowing for it can be
really effective. And like I said, that was
something I struggled with in college where I didn't have that
set structure and it was more ofa goal rather than a system.
And as a result your girl would sleep a lot, a lot of naps, a
(17:45):
lot of variability and what times I was sleeping.
And being aware of how importantthose systems are and how
unfortunately ineffective we areat just like achieving those
goals with willpower alone is really helpful to consider.
One person commented school is just a distraction and they've
creator responded exactly. Low key miss it now.
(18:05):
Another person said winter depression is easier to deal
with. Summer is raw dogging it.
No school friends busy, no coping.
Another person said summers so unhealthy for me.
I never eat because at school the food was free and my friends
fed me. Again, what are these systems
that are allowing for these likereally important needs to get
met versus just being left to our own devices or our own
(18:26):
day-to-day? So if this is you and you're
like, I noticed that I'm not talking to people as much.
My nutrition has shifted. I'm avoiding what I'm feeling.
I'm sleeping way more than usual.
I again want to go back to that idea of like, what artificial
things can you put in place? Because if we could just will
ourselves into better mental health or be like, I wish I did
these things and then I do them,we wouldn't have this problem,
(18:48):
right? And so I want you to get
creative and create those systems for yourself over the
summer. So what can you do?
We're going to give some ideas. This Reddit post is titled What
do you do in the summer as a college student?
They said the semester is about to end and I have no idea what
to do this summer. I already have a summer job that
I'm waiting to hear back from, but I'm trying to figure out
more social things to do too. Kids go to summer camp and
(19:08):
things like that. What do you do as an adult?
And I honestly have a hot take here and I should preface this
with I'm definitely more introverted.
Like today is a Saturday, I'm seeing no one and I'm loving
life. I'm recording this podcast for
you guys. I'm going to do some work.
I might have a work call or two,but like the weekends are my way
to recharge because I'm seeing people 9 through 5 if not later
(19:29):
Monday through Friday every day of the week.
And I think this depends on whatyour work commitment looks like.
Like if you're working with a lot of people that are older
than you, you don't make small talk, you don't update them on
how your days or week are going,or you don't call family or
friends and check in throughout the week.
You might have to be more intentional about filling your
social battery and going out andseeing people and doing fun
(19:50):
things. I have found for me that work
actually does fill my social battery in a good way.
And I love my Co workers. I love seeing them every day.
We chat, we catch up, I give them the updates on what's
happening with Taylor Swift. Speaking of which, I can't even
with the Travis Kelce post 13 slides, Taylor's and seven of
them tree pain put a people quote about how he's showing a
(20:10):
series today is I cannot like see my Co workers get to hear
about this. They don't care, but they they
get the updates. You guys get the updates also,
so I want you to not just tell yourself like, I have to
socialize, I have to work out, Ihave to have a job, I have to do
hobbies just because like I wantyou to pay attention to do I
feel like that need is getting met.
(20:31):
And if that need is getting met,then maybe you don't need to
force yourself into that contextand Add all these things to your
plate. I also want you to remember how
much we interact with people changes throughout our lifetime.
And it kind of like increases and peaks when we're in college.
In college, we are socializing more than ever at any other
point in our life. We're seeing people every day,
(20:53):
all the time. You might be going out, you see
people at classes, you're studying together.
It peaks like that young adulthood, teenage, college
years. It's going to go down after that
when you start working a job. A really big factor here is when
you start dating and have a longterm partner, you end up
spending more time with them than your friends and your
social battery gets filled in different ways.
(21:14):
So it's expected that when you're working over the summer
or when you're not in college orwhen you're at home, like you
will see people less and that might be OK.
You might be in a different season of life.
And just because you're seeing people less doesn't necessarily
mean that you'll feel lonely. If you are feeling lonely, then
that's a sign that like, OK, I need to see people more than I'm
currently seeing them. How can I get myself to do that?
(21:35):
But if you're like, I'm not really seeing people, but also
when I really think about it andreflect, I'm not feeling unseen
and unheard and disconnected andlonely, maybe that's OK.
And maybe your work or volunteering or research is
feeling that social battery and that's great and that's amazing.
And so paying attention to thesethings that we're like, oh, we
should do or like that's good versus like, do I need to do
(21:58):
that? Do I want to do that?
So I just want that reminder, right?
Like if you come home after college and you're like, Oh my
God, I saw my friend 6 times a day every day.
And now I'm seeing people like twice a week.
Ask yourself, OK, how do I feel about that?
Am I feeling lonely and disconnected?
And if I'm not feeling lonely and disconnected, just give
yourself that mental reminder. Why?
Which is that I am maybe even like abnormally social in
(22:20):
college because of the context that I'm in.
And I also maybe don't need thatmuch socialization to feel
connected and seen. And so that's OK.
And that's just like the stage of life you're at.
And you don't have to like forceyourself into these contexts
that you don't need or want to be in.
I also want to give like kind ofa hot take, which is that I feel
more connected to people when I am staying up to date on their
(22:42):
social media and they're stayingup to date on mine.
And I really think this depends on the mindset that you bring to
it and how you're engaging with that.
But like I posted about moving this week and like, what a
process it was. And I'm like, first big girl
apartment, so exciting and seeing all these people from
different stages of life, like friends from boarding school and
friends from middle school and one of my babysitters from when
(23:06):
I was in elementary school, swiping up on the story and
being, Oh my gosh, so excited. Like, where are you living now?
What's up? Give me the updates.
I could have reached out and texted or called and given them
those updates and then they would have found out.
But by sharing those things and kind of like putting those
updates out there, we were able to connect and feel updated.
And it was like easier to feel like, OK, we're updated on each
(23:27):
other's lives and what's going on.
And I think that's also true forother friends.
Like I have friends who are abroad this summer working a new
job or traveling a lot for work and seeing kind of like where
they're at or what they're doingon their day-to-day basis.
It's kind of parasocial. But also next time we talk or
text, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I saw that.
Like I'm updated. So I feel like the important
(23:47):
caveat there is that are you using these updates that you're
posting or they're posting to inform the conversations that
you actually have? Or are you just like a quiet
consumer and just seeing these things and it doesn't actually
lead to an actual real relationship connection.
So be aware of that. But that is something that I
also find fills my social cup and is a good buffer.
(24:07):
I also want to add something really interesting here that I
heard on the psychology of her 20s.
She did an episode on parasocialrelationships and she did talk
about how research has shown that watching the same content
creators, listening to the same content creators, watching the
same shows, that parasocial relationship does act as a
buffer to loneliness. So if you're like listening to
the podcast every week, love you.
(24:29):
But that's actually something that serves as a buffer of like
continuously getting updates on someone, continuously feeling
engaged and vested. And so having these TV shows
that you continue to go back to and watch, having these creators
that you continuously turn into,it's not a replacement for
relationships. It's not going to make you feel
less isolated, but it's a buffer.
(24:51):
And we want to put as many buffers in place as possible to
reduce our emotional vulnerability, especially during
a season like summer where we are emotionally vulnerable
because that large system of school is not in place.
OK, this post from Reddit is titled What will you guys do to
survive the summer? I'm going home for the summer
and I know that I will be bored out of my mind.
I will lifeguard but other than that I don't know what to do to
(25:13):
stop from going stir crazy. I moved back to my childhood
home a few months before starting college.
After six years. I do not have any friends here.
Winter break was horrible. I'm so bored when I'm home.
I mean, I have fun pursuing my hobbies such as half marathon
training, working out, reading, etcetera, but I get burnt out
from the lack of social connections there.
My lifeguard friends are pretty mid to be honest and we just
(25:34):
hang out at work. What else can I do to enjoy the
summer? And so this is a great example
of work social relationships, not filling your social cup and
being really aware of that and then being like, OK, so I got to
add other relationships here because this is not going to cut
it. And there's some really great
comments of people feeling the same way.
This person says, I understand you so much.
It's validating that other people feel this way.
(25:54):
It can be hard when most of yourfriends are at college and you
all go your separate ways for the summer.
I only have a couple of good friends at home.
It's difficult to see my collegefriends over breaks because we
all live in different parts of the country.
And there's some like very mixedadvice in the comments.
We'll read a couple of them, butmy biggest advice here is like
you're aware that your social battery isn't being filled by
your current routine, so you're going to need to supplement
(26:14):
that. And again, we're going to rely
on systems, not goals. So like, do you have a time
every week where you call your friends at the same point to
catch up and see what you're doing?
Or when you're driving to work, are you always going to try and
give your friends a call and if they pick up, great, If not,
that's okay. I also think there's something
to be said for having something you're looking forward to as far
as like social relationships. Like if your friends don't live
(26:34):
near you, can you plan a weekendwhere one of you guys visits
each other? And so you're like, OK, I'm like
not feeling super fulfilled in my work relationships, but one
of my friends is going to visit at the end of this month and I'm
going to get my social battery super filled by seeing them
then. And then there's some also
comments related to other systems that you could put in
place. Taking classes over the summer,
working a part time job, joininga gym, doing an internship.
(26:58):
Like if the lifeguarding job isn't filling your social cup,
are there other things that you could show up and do that would
allow you to meet new people? I also think this is something
really important to think about when you're planning your summer
or your post grad life or the classes that you're taking,
which is does that thing that you're committing to fill these
other buckets and give you a system that sets you up for
(27:20):
success? So this past spring, I was
trying to decide between two different research jobs.
They were both time, one of themwas in a bigger city, probably
more social opportunities, a smaller lab, and the other one
was in the middle of nowhere, which is where I'm at,
Binghamton, NY, and it was a larger lab.
I would be one of five people starting who just graduated
(27:41):
college. There was a ton of undergrads.
There was a bunch of grad students.
The professor who leads the lab is really hands on and they're
on a day-to-day basis. And almost every day we would
have families coming in that we would be doing 3 hours of data
collection. So interviews, talking to them,
getting them set up with tasks, and the other one was a virtual
study. So you get on Zoom with people,
(28:03):
you ask them questions, you talkthem through what they're going
to be doing the following week. There were other people that
were at the same stage of the career, so post backs or
research assistants that were working full time, but it was
somewhat remote, like people would work hybrid.
They weren't there in the officeevery day from 9:00 to 5:00.
The professor who led the lab was engaged but also doing other
(28:25):
things. So not there in the office every
single day. And when I thought about like,
OK, like what would allow me to be successful and if I took the
job that was like a smaller lab and a remote study, I would set
the goal of being social and meeting people.
Like, would that happen? It's so much easier if it's a
system and context that's already in place, which is that
(28:45):
I was starting the same time as four other people.
Those are built in people that you can be friends with and
interact with. Tons of grad students who I
could talk to and get support and get to know a boss who was
really hands on and engaged and all all these people it would be
interacting with through the actual research we're doing on a
day-to-day basis. And so as a post grad, knowing
(29:05):
that like, OK, I'm going from being in college, which is our
most social period, to being less social, what can I do to
ease that transition and set myself up for success?
Also knowing that I struggled incollege with my sleep and daily
routine by not having that structure.
And that was honestly a really big thing that informed the
decision because what they were studying and the research
(29:25):
opportunities were pretty similar.
It was just that day-to-day thatwas really different.
And choosing the day-to-day thatput me in a system that set me
up for success was honestly, I think a great choice in so far
has been amazing. So it's probably a little bit
late for this summer, but if you're choosing your classes for
the next semester or you're maybe starting a job this fall,
I want you to think about that, which is that if you're looking
(29:48):
at different roles and one of them offers more social
engagement, a larger team, more connection, can you also get
your social battery filled from work versus being like, OK, I'm
working 40 hours a week. I now also have to figure out
how to see friends and do that on top of it, which is honestly
a lot to balance. And then some of the other
(30:08):
comments in here, I love a lot of people suggesting learning a
new skill, studying for a big test, like if you were taking
the GRE or the MCAT or something, using that time
during the summer, really engaging in a hobby.
This idea of like mastery, like you lose that during the summer
because it's built in place during school.
So how can you focus your time on getting better at something,
engaging with something that youenjoy and using that to utilize
(30:30):
your time and acting as a bufferfor those relationships and
loneliness? I also think that another thing
that people don't think about asa buffer for social
relationships is if you're dating, like we talked about how
as you kind of progress in life and you get to the stage of life
of having a serious partner, that becomes a lot of your
social battery. And when you have kids, like
that's a big part of your socialbattery.
You see your friends less and less because that need is filled
(30:52):
and you don't have as much time if you're someone who has like a
serious partner and you're not seeing them during the summer
because they're at school or youjust went through a breakup.
I also want you to be really aware of this, like, social
battery thing because that's been acting as a buffer that's
been a lot of your social interaction and relationships.
And you probably will feel more lonely once you're not having
that and once you're missing outon that connection in a
(31:13):
consistent way. So how can you fill that void,
if you will, with friendships and other connections as you
navigate that new stage of life?OK another post because we
talked about what you're choosing to do during the summer
and can you choose to do something that is like work but
also social? This person said.
I just realized that college students can probably never have
(31:35):
a relaxing summer. Just finished my first year of
college and I've started an internship this summer.
I was reflecting earlier and realized that most college
students can never really relax during the summer.
They're either taking summer classes, doing an internship and
work to make money, studying abroad, or busy with whatever
else. Now that my internship is
started, my summer is practically over.
(31:55):
I'm also living in an apartment next year and stressing that all
the shopping for that college summers suck.
Lol yes the apartment shopping is no joke.
Eventually at the beginning thatI moved, I'm loving it.
But it also is like a lot of like decision fatigue and things
to figure out and set up. So side note, I can relate, but
this is the importance of makingit sustainable and setting
yourself up with the things thatyou choose to do and the
(32:18):
commitments that you make. The perspective that I think
this person holds is that like, I have a job and then on top of
that, how am I also going to do fun things and see friends and
engage all these things, right? Like, I think best case
scenario, we're putting ourselves in context that check
multiple boxes. So hopefully you're doing
something for work that is aligned with your interests,
(32:40):
whether it's working with peopleor if you're doing research and
that's a step in your career or you find the day-to-day tasks
that you're doing super fascinating and fulfilling.
Like can you get that mental engagement and fulfillment
through work? Can you get the social
connection through work? Like can you still of course see
your friends over the summer? But ideally you would see people
(33:01):
at work and feel engaged and connected through those
relationships with your coworkers and get as many of
those needs met as possible through that work context.
Similarly fun things. Do you do fun things with your
coworkers? Are there things in your
day-to-day work that are enjoyable?
Is it part of your day-to-day routine?
Like if you really like working out and that's fun for you, are
(33:21):
you doing that in the morning orthe evening?
Another thing here also is like if you're getting your social
and intellectual needs met through work, then you have all
of this other time to do hobbiesor travel or explore your city.
Like you can actually use that time to do the fun things versus
being OK, I've worked 40 hours doing work and I don't have to
spend like 10 hours a week also seeing my friends because my
(33:42):
social battery is not met. And also, I'm really not feeling
intellectually engaged to like another 10 hours a week reading
or consuming content or working on learning this new thing
because I don't have that like sense of mastery or engagement.
And that's important for me. And also what am I doing for fun
and hobbies and like spending mytime?
So I want you guys to think about when you choose your
classes, when you choose who you're living with, when you're
(34:03):
choosing what jobs to accept, what labs to join, Like how can
you get as many of those needs met as possible in that context?
And so the TLDR here is really that you need to make it
sustainable. If you start the summer burnt
out, if you start the school year burnt out, if you start
your job burnt out, you're setting yourself up for failure.
(34:23):
If you just keep doing that samething, you're just going to
continue to burn out. And there's also a TikTok
related to this, kind of which this creator said to the college
girl lying in bed feeling guiltyfor doing nothing.
You've been strong for so long. You've carried so much.
Rest isn't lazy, it's healing. You don't have to earn peace.
You already deserve it. And this again goes back to
earlier, like if you're socializing with less people and
(34:43):
that feels OK, that's a win. If you are doing less work on a
day-to-day basis than you did during the semester, but you
feel OK, that's a win. So I want you to pay attention
to how you're feeling, which is that it actually might be
sustainable and even a positive experience to have less
commitments and less socializingand less work to do over the
summer. And that might be good for your
(35:05):
mental health to rest and recharge.
We just want to pay attention tothough, is our mental health
sustainable? Are we feeling good about our
day-to-day routine? And if that looks like more
resting and recharging and less on your plate, amazing.
We just want to make sure that doesn't come at the expense of
our mental health or even cause mental health challenges for
ourselves because we've lost allthose systems and buffers.
(35:26):
So now I want to talk about like, this sounds great, right?
Let's put ourselves in context and systems to help our mental
health thrive. But like, how do you even do
that? Especially if you're depressed
and have motivation? You're like, OK, that would have
been great to know a year ago when I committed to this summer
routine or I knew to find a job or take classes.
But now I'm two months into the summer and my mental health is
(35:47):
not in a good spot. And like willpower or forcing
myself to do things is really not doing the trick.
And there's a really great TikTok about this.
It said depression is so weird because what you mean I'm an all
inclusive vacation and still would rather just go home and be
alone in my room? Don't get me wrong I'm super
grateful I'm just constantly tired and fatigued.
And another post from a therapist on TikTok this one the
(36:08):
client says I feel like I'm wasting my summer being
depressed And the therapist saysif you weren't depressed what
would you want to do? And the client says go for
walks, go swimming, lay in the sun read.
And the therapist response It sounds like your depression is
keeping you from living the clients.
Like what do I do? And the therapist says do all of
those things anyway. And the client says even though
(36:28):
I'm depressed, the therapist responds to them, especially
because you're depressed. And so the idea is like, we
don't need to wait to feel better to do these things.
And I honestly think that a lot of these things will make us
feel better. So again, I want to go back to
the beginning of this because I feel like when we want to change
things, it's natural to set a goal and it's natural to set an
(36:48):
intention. It doesn't feel as natural to
put ourselves in context that result in the goal or or set up
really strict systems that as a result meet that goal.
But that's what I think is important.
And it's harder. It's not what you want to do
when you're depressed. You're like, it's probably not
going to work like this sounds like a lot of energy.
(37:09):
I don't want to do that. And doing that thing is what is
going to help alleviate and reduce the challenges that
you're experiencing. So yes, ideally do those things
that you want to do, set those goals and do them because you're
depressed, because it will make you feel better.
And A, just willing yourself to do those things doesn't always
(37:32):
work, especially when you're depressed.
And B, just because you're reading a book or on the beach
or going on a walk when you're depressed doesn't mean that
you'll immediately feel better. And in fact, you might just be
like, well, but I'm still depressed.
I'd rather be in my bed. So I get that.
But I want you to remember that setting these goals and choosing
what's good for your mental health at every choice point is
(37:53):
going to be an uphill battle versus putting yourselves in
context and systems that force yourself to do those things.
And all you have to do is show up.
Like, I just want you to have toshow up.
That's the thing that I want youto commit to and have to do.
And I want those other things tocome as a result and as a
byproduct. So I want you to think about the
context in the systems and implement that rather than all
(38:14):
these micro goals and choice points and forcing yourselves to
do things with willpower. So I hope that was helpful.
I hope you guys have a better understanding of how important
systems are for our mental health and why you might be
struggling with your mental health more over the summer and
why summer can be a great opportunity to get better at
creating systems that support our mental health and getting
(38:35):
our needs met or relaxing and recharging, especially when that
doesn't come at the expense of our mental health.
So let me know how you're doing this summer.
I would love to hear from you guys about how summer is going
for you, what you're doing, what's worked, what hasn't, and
send me Adm or a message with your favorite summer memory so
far. I would love to hear if you
found this helpful. Make sure to leave a review.
(38:57):
Subscribe. Over 50% of you that listen to
the podcast are not subscribed. So hit the subscribe button,
turn on automatic downloads. Make sure to watch the podcast
on YouTube and Spotify. You guys can see me sitting in
my new apartment with my really cute branded little microphone
that says she persisted. I hope you guys have a great
rest of your July and August andyou are having a sustainable
(39:18):
balanced summer with some helpful systems in place and
thriving mentally. If you guys like the solo
episodes like these are we kind of review and react to what
people are experiencing and giveadvice and explain like why you
might be feeling that way and what we can do differently.
Let me know. And with that, we'll be back
next week with a new type of episode that I think you guys
(39:38):
will absolutely love. It is also related to
depression. So if that last question hit
hard and hit home, make sure to tune in.
But yeah, follow along at that She Persisted podcast.
Let me know what you thought of the episode.
You can leave a comment on Spotify.
I'll be reading all of them. And I hope you have a great rest
of your week and I will see you guys next Thursday.
(39:58):
If you enjoyed this episode, if she persisted, make sure to
leave a review, subscribe and share with a friend or family
member. Follow along at She Persisted
podcast on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube and more for bonus
content. Thanks for listening and keep
persisting.
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