July 17, 2025 • 29 mins
Season 2 Episode 5
Please be advised that the topics discussed in this series can be challenging to listen to and explore topics of homelessness, abuse, torture, transphobia, racism, and drug use. Please take care while listening.
In this episode of She. They. Us., we explore the urgent need for trans-inclusive housing in Canada through the powerful stories of Jodi Gray and Martha Singh Jennings.
First, we will meet Jodi Gray, who is a trans woman living in Vancouver and the former Program Manager at Aoki Ross House. Jodi details how, as a trans woman, she experiences consistent hostility and violence in her everyday life, including in her housing journey
Next, we will meet Marth Singh Jennings, who works at the 519 in Toronto. The 519 is a 2SLGBTQIA+ shelter in Toronto, Ontario. Martha talks to us about the Trans Access Project, a project dedicated to supporting staff members with training to ensure the shelter is more inclusive of all sexualities and genders. She also shares how queer refugees are particularly vulnerable in the housing sector.
Meet Our Guests in Order of Appearance
- Jodi Gray, Trans Advocate
- Martha Singh Jennigs, The 519, Toronto
About your host
Andrea Reimer is a Housing Advocate and former politician. In 2008, Andrea was elected as a City Councillor for the City of Vancouver, and served in that role for ten years. Since 2019, she has been an Adjunct Professor at University of British Columbia’s School of Public Policy and Global Affairs. In her teen years, Andrea experienced homelessness and has been a public voice within the housing crisis for the last two decades.
Additional Resources from this Episode
We've gathered the resources from this episode into one helpful list:
Season 1 of She. They. Us.: https://pcvwh.ca/she-they-us/she-they-us-podcast/
Pan-Canadian Voice for Women’s Housing: https://pcvwh.ca/
Aoki Ross House: https://ssl.straight.com/living/bcs-first-supportive-housing-project-for-trans-and-gender-diverse-people-launches-in#
The 519: https://www.the519.org/programs/tpoc/
Pacewood Shelter: https://www.the519.org/programs/housing-services/
Unfortunately, there is not a national crisis line in Canada for survivors of gender based violence. But you can find provincial crisis lines and other resources at this link: https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/health-promotion/stop-family-violence/services.html
#housing #housingcrisis #canada
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Please be advised that the topics discussed in this series can be challenging to listen toand explore topics of homelessness, abuse, torture, racism, transphobia, and drug use.
Please take care while listening and if you need support, unfortunately there isn't anational crisis line in Canada, but you can find provincial crisis lines and other
(00:24):
resources on the podcast website.
...
Every time I leave home, I think about where I'm going, if it's safe or not, what I mightface when I get there, what I would do if something happened, make sure that I could get
(00:52):
out of the situation, know if there's any allies that'll be around me.
So I have to think about that everywhere I go.
Welcome back to She.
They.
Us., a podcast brought to you by the Pan-Canadian Voice for Women's Housing.
I'm your host, Andrea Reimer.
(01:13):
I'm a former City Councillor for the City of Vancouver, an Adjunct Professor of Practiceat UBC's School of Public Policy and Global Affairs, and a housing advocate who has
experienced homelessness firsthand.
In our last episode, we met Jesse Jenkinson, a researcher with Unity Health Toronto.
We discussed the overwhelming demand placed on the healthcare system from those seekingshelter with nowhere else to go.
However, there is one group for whom even the hospital may not feel like safe shelter: trans and gender diverse people. (01:39):
undefined
Despite all the challenges we've heard this season for trans women and gender diversepeople, these challenges are even more significant.
And both statistics and lived experiences
(01:59):
show that they are much more likely to experience violence as a result of transphobia,which makes them that much more hidden, which makes them that much more unsafe, and...
you start to see how deep the challenge they are facing is.
But there is some hope.
Since last season, I have learned about two inspiring resources (02:16):
Aoki Ross and The 519.
Let's start with Jodi Gray, who is a trans woman living in Vancouver and also at the timeI spoke with her, the program manager at Aoki Ross House.
This is a little about her housing journey.
(02:37):
So I transitioned when I was living in a basement suite near Trout Lake.
And turns out the owner of the house lived above me and was super friendly when I movedin.
And turns out he was transphobic.
And so after I transitioned, it was a very hostile environment.
(02:57):
So he would laugh at me.
He wouldn't talk to me anymore.
And yeah, I just felt very uncomfortable living there.
But because of the rents in Vancouver, I wasn't able to move.
So I was kind of stuck there knowing that someone that was transphobic had access to myhouse.
It was a very unsafe feeling.
(03:19):
And so my doctor
found out about a housing project that was opening and let me know about it.
It was specifically for transgender diverse and two-spirit people.
So I applied to live there and I didn't get accepted there, but I eventually found co-ophousing in Gastown where I was living with people I worked with and it was safe housing
(03:46):
and...
Yeah, I was very comfortable there and I was thankful to get out of the basement suitewhere I was not safe at all.
While Jodi didn't find housing at the place her doctor referred her to, she did findsomething else.
So when I was talking about my housing journey, I mentioned that my doctor had suggestedaffordable housing that was getting ready to open for transgender diverse and two-spirit
(04:11):
people.
I applied to live there.
It was Aoki Ross House.
And the director at the time who was opening it looked at my application and told me Iwasn't a great fit to live there because it was geared more towards people who weren't
housed at the time.
But the director said, would you like to work here?
(04:34):
So yeah, I was working as a peer support worker at the time.
I'd come through my mental health journey.
I wasn't exactly sure that I was ready to work full time.
And we set up an interview and between talking to the director and the interview, I justreally wrestled with myself because it sounded like such a great opportunity to help
(04:55):
others not have to go through what I went through.
But at the same time, I really didn't know if I was capable of doing the work and doing agood job of it.
So I had the interview.
It went well.
The director invited me down to see the house and
that's when it became really real to me, what this house was going to mean for the peoplethat lived there.
(05:20):
And I knew as soon as I got to the house that I wanted to be a part of it.
And so I accepted the position of program manager at the house.
This is not the hardest thing Jodi has ever done.
I met Jodi when I hosted a TED Talk in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside.
And the only word I can think of is fierce.
(05:43):
After high school, I was in the Navy for two years, served on an aircraft carrier in theStates, which was amazing.
I mean, 5,000 people on one ship, and traveled across the Pacific twice.
And then I came back and went to university in North Carolina, majored in accounting andcorporate finance, and worked in accounting for mostly large manufacturing companies for
(06:10):
about 20 years.
And I worked for General Electric in the States, Air Liquide Canada while I was up here.
Received several awards for Air Liquide, I was named employee of the year for the wholecountry.
And yeah, I was pretty good at my job and I was pretty proud of what I did and learned themanufacturing processes at the plants that I went to, which was amazing.
(06:38):
And then I had a...
pretty serious depressive episode and wasn't able to work.
And after that, I went into peer support training because I found out how horrible themental health system can be for trans people.
And I wanted to try and help improve that.
(06:58):
So in peer support training, after that, I worked at the hospital and worked at CoastMental Health's clubhouse,
helping others who were going through the same journey that I went through.
And while this was going on, I went to a drop-in meeting for trans people.
(07:19):
And at one of the meetings, I just mentioned that I would like to make the mental healthsystem more friendly for trans people.
And a person there told me that...
I couldn't do that because I wasn't a lawyer, I wasn't a politician, I didn't have a bunchof letters behind my name, so I would never be able to get it done.
(07:41):
And I took that as a personal challenge and decided that I wanted to show that ordinarypeople can do extraordinary things.
Full disclosure, I have a trans kid.
And while I haven't lived their experiences, I've supported someone I love very muchliving through it.
(08:01):
And while it's nuanced and not universal, the easiest summary I can give is that life fortrans and gender diverse people is hard.
I asked Jodi to tell me a bit about what her life is like as a trans woman.
I transitioned in 2016.
Since 2016, every time I leave home, I think about where I'm going, if it's safe or not,what I might face when I get there,
(08:31):
what I would do if something happened, make sure that I could get out of the situation,know if there's any allies that'll be around me.
So I have to think about that everywhere I go.
And a good example of that is shortly after I transitioned, I was in a coffee shop nearCommercial and Broadway, and I was just sitting by the window reading a book and having a
(08:56):
coffee.
And a person came in.
The counter was right beside of me and started loudly talking to the barista about howthis person hates trans people.
And yeah, they shouldn't exist.
And it was just horrible hate speech.
And the barista just went along with it, didn't do anything to stop it.
(09:17):
And this guy carried on and on.
And I just sort of sank down in my chair, hoping that no one noticed me.
And I had to wait until this person was finished,
and waited until he left the coffee shop and had been gone five or 10 minutes before Ifelt safe getting up and heading home.
And I had to look over my shoulder the whole way home to make sure that he wasn't there.
(09:41):
So it was a very scary experience.
And then to come home to an unsafe space even there, I couldn't relax even when I gothome.
So it's so important to have a safe space
to come home to where you know you're safe and know you can relax and know that nothing'sgoing to happen to you there.
(10:02):
In a world that is openly hostile and inherently violent to trans people, how do you fundtrans housing?
The city owns the building and we run it for the city.
And the funds we get aren't sufficient to have 24-hour staff in the building, which isneeded because
(10:23):
security for trans people is much more difficult, I think, than a building without transpeople in it.
I'm trying to figure out how to put this, but there's a lot of dangers, a lot of peoplethat prey on trans people.
And they'll find a way to get into the building.
And we've had people come into the building, men especially, that will come in to visitone tenant and end up walking around the building,
(10:51):
knocking on every door trying to get entrance into other tenants rooms.
And so security is very important.
We need 24-hour staff.
We don't have a meal program, which most of the buildings like ours has a meal program.
So I've relied mostly on relationships with other organizations
(11:14):
to try to bring in food, to try and bring in some of the services that the tenants canreally use.
Bring in makeup donations, bring in some trans-affirming garments.
Some of the unique needs that really don't think were taken into consideration when thebudget was set.
So what would Jodi like to see happen?
(11:37):
What I would like to see happen is the entire housing continuum
specifically for transgender diverse and two-spirit people.
So that would be a shelter, which I've opened, an emergency weather shelter, which has nowturned into a temporary shelter through the winter.
So it's open every night through the winter now.
(11:57):
And then a house like Aoki Ross House.
And then a building that's closer to independent living, still staffed, but...
where the people have a self-contained suite, have their own kitchen, their own washroom,and pretty much an independent living situation.
But on top of that, what I would like to see happen is stricter enforcement ofnon-discrimination laws and education for housing providers so that trans people that
(12:32):
don't want to live in exclusive trans housing can live...
in other buildings just like anyone else.
This is a great time to bring in Martha Singh Jennings.
My name is Martha Singh Jennings.
I use they, them and she, her pronouns.
I was contacted by Jodi Gray, who manages Aoki Ross House in Vancouver.
(12:52):
And we've met a couple of times.
The work we do has overlaps because I support a project that's the city of Toronto's first2SLGBTQ adult shelter space.
Martha works at The 519 in Toronto.
So The 519 is a City of Toronto agency and we're also a charity.
We're one of a small group of 11, I believe, what are called the Association of CommunityCentres.
(13:16):
We were the first of its kind.
What it means is we have a model whereby we're an agency of the city, but our activitiesare directed by a community board made up of members of the community that we serve.
We are the city's 2SLGBTQ Community Centre and
have been in some senses such since 1976, so it's going to be our 50th anniversary nextyear.
(13:39):
And at this point in time we are very big agency.
We have around 90 staff members and we run a really broad range of programming andservices for community, as I said 2SLGBTQ community and also our geographic neighbours in
the Downtown East of Toronto.
We have like a really extensive range of services that include early-on children andfamily services, youth programming, programming for older adults, trans specific
(14:07):
programming, newcomer refugee programming, health justice, community wellbeing team thatdo a kind of lot of engagement with folks who are just kind of like moving through the
space in the building, like activating our lobby area and doing outreach in the park andthe local area around our building.
We also have an education and training team which has been running in some form or othersince the Trans ACCESS Project which started in 2001.
(14:38):
The Trans ACCESS Project is what led me to reach out to Martha.
I wanted to learn more about how non-trans oriented organizations are typically blind totrans needs.
Specifically, women shelters when a trans woman shows up in need.
Let's dive a bit deeper into that.
The Trans ACCESS Project was kind of the first documented point in time where The 519 asan agency led by trans staff started to provide a coordinated response to that.
(15:06):
But it's something that was being...
like the effective exclusion from support services, homelessness support services wasbeing reported and documented by community for around a decade before that based on, you
know,
written record, I'm sure there was a lot going on in conversation as well.
And since that time, 2001, when the Trans ACCESS Project started, we've continued to dothat work.
(15:29):
So the Trans ACCESS Project grew into what is now our education and training department.
Our education and training department has for a really long time provided training throughToronto Hostels Training Centre, which is a body that provides courses to shelter sector
staff on 2SLGBTQ inclusion in spaces.
(15:49):
More recently that's developed in 2022.
We received some funding from the City of Toronto to refresh and expand that training.
So now we actually offer directly rather than through Toronto Hostels Training Centre, weoffer sector capacity building training to Toronto shelter sector.
That consists of, it's a day long training that's intended to support staff in what wewant, which is a transformation of the shelter sector to create a system that is
(16:19):
inclusive across the board for trans folks, rather than what we still experience now,despite decades of activism and advocacy from community, which is still disturbing amount
of transphobia in the form of verbal and physical harassment and exclusion from services.
(16:39):
We don't see very commonly the type of really egregious treatment from staff as was prettycommon
not even that long ago in terms of how folks were treated during intake, the kind ofquestions that they were being asked or kind of conditions that they were being expected
to meet.
We don't see that as commonly, but we do still see people feeling unwelcome, being made tofeel unwelcome by staff in gendered spaces.
(17:07):
We do still, something that is still disturbingly common is unchecked transphobia andparticularly racialized transphobia, so misogynoir,
trans misogynoir and anti-indigenous transphobia from other residents in shared spacesthat is not adequately responded to by staff.
(17:29):
Of course, we can't expect staff at those spaces to eradicate people's beliefs, but we doexpect them to respond appropriately when harassment and discrimination is experienced.
What we know about that is if it is in fact the case that
trans folks and particularly racialized trans folks are not being heard when they expresstheir experiences.
(17:53):
And what I mean by that is experiences of racialized transphobia from other shelterresidents.
Then it can and does lead to a breakdown of supports.
So initially just a distrust of staff in those spaces and minimally reducing the trustthat they have in the staff in those spaces.
(18:13):
And kind of like on the more extreme end of that, discharge from that space, because theyare the person who's raising an issue and they're the person being heard to raise an issue
and not having that being taken seriously and dealt with adequately and being framed asthe instigator because they were the person that raised it.
And discharge has all kinds of complications and implications that I'm sure you know,which for those who don't, the primary one is if you are receiving supports in that
(18:37):
specific space to...
move along your housing journey, find other forms of accommodation.
you're discharged from a space, you usually don't continue to receive services from theperson you were receiving services from.
I asked Martha, where do people go when this happens?
All kinds of difficult
situations. Absolutely some people end up sleeping outside and in
(18:59):
encampments. Some people will end up in exploitative situations, for example, exchangingsex for
staying with abusive family members, moving consistently between different people, usinghookup sites to find places to stay.
There's all different kinds of situations that people might find themselves in.
(19:21):
And shelter avoidance is very, very significant and real for trans folks.
Even those who haven't had experiences in shelter, the narrative and the communityawareness about the types of experiences people have is so, so visible.
People are so aware of it.
Even folks who haven't
personally experienced those harms, discriminations and lack of access will avoid shelterbecause of the stories that they've heard.
(19:46):
People will find themselves in extremely harmful and difficult situations to avoid shelterbecause shelter is so harmful for a lot of people, that in the balance of things.
They decide that, for example, staying in an abusive relationship is the better of thoseoptions.
(20:06):
As Martha alluded to earlier in her interview, trans is not the sole identity of manytrans people.
For example, there are many indigenous trans folks, black trans folks, and people of colorwho are trans.
Added to that may be any number of things, including immigration status.
There are a number of newcomers who are queer refugees.
(20:29):
I asked Martha to tell me a bit more about that.
And it's not surprising to hear that they are especially vulnerable, but what issurprising is the ways that they are.
Canada is a hot location for queer migration, in part because we legislatively have a lotof protections for queer and trans folks at the moment.
(20:51):
Hopefully those stick around.
And that is also to a degree true for immigration legislation, in terms of like who can beconsidered a spouse,
for example.
So there's a lot of newcomers in Toronto, and many of them are queer and trans newcomers.
We at The 519 have a huge refugee newcomer program, New to Canada program that servesthousands of people every year, folks who are refugee claimants, permanent residents,
(21:18):
resettled refugees, people with all different types of immigration status.
And we also, my team specifically supports a project called Pacewood,
which is a collaboration with Homes First Society, one of Toronto's biggest shelterproviders.
And Pacewood is a 20 bed emergency shelter for LGBTQ newcomers.
(21:41):
And we reserve 50%, so 10 of the beds for trans and gender diverse folks.
This is absolutely very much needed.
There are a huge number of newcomers in Toronto shelters.
For background, Canada had over 190,000 new refugee claimants in 2024.
(22:03):
There are no numbers kept on how many of those were queer, but we do know that the numberof queer refugees has been sharply on the rise globally.
In Toronto in 2024, 6,312 refugee claimants spent one or more nights in the city's sheltersystem.
It's a very small space and we're very grateful to have it.
(22:23):
It would be great
to have more beds, it would be great to have space that was for 2SLGBTQ folks that wasn'tspecifically for newcomers because that's also a really big need.
Martha brings up a very important point about a specific challenge that queer refugeeclimates face.
So you think about the fact that having a social network is a protective factor forstaying housed or certainly from becoming unhoused.
(22:46):
The lack of a social network is a risk factor.
And as a newcomer, you're automatically
you have your social network reduced because you've moved to a new place.
As a racialized newcomer, you have it reduced because of racism that exists in ourcountry.
As a queer or trans newcomer, you have it reduced because you might not feel able to or beable to access the kind of supports that other newcomers who aren't queer or trans might
(23:15):
be able to access.
So for example, you wouldn't be able to stay with your aunt's friend because she's atransphobe, for example.
And so
all of those add a layer or kind of remove a layer of protection of a social network.
And whilst someone who's a cisgender queer person might be able to like fly under theradar or kind of receive some grace from community, oftentimes trans people can't.
(23:40):
So absolutely a lot of queer people aren't able to access diaspora communities whenthey're newcomers in Canada and Toronto.
But it's even less the case for trans folks that they can safely
access the resources within their diaspora communities.
For example, like a church that serves your cultural community might not be willing toserve you.
(24:01):
I just wanted to highlight that newcomers, particularly racialized newcomers, particularlyracialized LGBTQ, particularly racialized trans newcomers have very limited access to
social networks and community and therefore don't have those protective factors
of social networks.
(24:22):
Of course, there are exceptions, but for most folks, that's the situation.
As I wrapped up my conversation with Martha, I asked her if she was hopeful that thefederal election would change anything.
At the time of recording this interview, we were mere days away from it.
I wouldn't use the word hopeful.
I don't feel hopeless.
Let's say that.
I don't feel hopeless.
(24:44):
But I wouldn't say I feel hopeful.
So I think that there are things happening that in the next
five to 10 years could bear fruit to ease the suffering in our communities.
But I don't think it's a short term kind of a frame.
If anything, it's going to get a lot worse because we don't have controls on the privatemarket rental system as would be needed to try to minimize the amount of evictions and
(25:15):
things that are happening.
I feel hopeful about the way that
my communities gather around each other and support each other.
And I feel hopeful about the ways that we can become even more connected with each otherand create more opportunities for mutual aid and collective care in our communities.
(25:38):
I think that the systems that impact us still don't uphold our needs and rights very wellin practice.
And whilst we do have some vocal champions, we don't yet have the critical mass tooverturn certain kind of like status quo issues.
(26:00):
Jodi echoes a similar sentiment.
To everyone, I would say that we need a lot more allies to speak up for us.
Just 1% of the population, I think we probably get overlooked a lot for the housing, thelimited housing dollars that are there.
So we need more people to make noise about this issue and make sure it's in thepolitician's face.
(26:25):
We need policy to bring about the entire housing continuum for trans people so that we'resafe all the way through our housing journey.
And we need the policy to provide education to housing providers and provide a feedbackloop where
(26:46):
if trans people are discriminated against, they can call in, it can be recorded and say,landlord X has 10 complaints in the last year about discrimination against trans people.
That's data that you can do something about and you can go to the landlord and provideeducation to the landlord and make all housing safe for trans people.
(27:12):
And...
we've already got a phone line at the residential tenancy branch.
Just make it part of that phone line and have someone specific there to take thecomplaints.
But we definitely need that feedback loop because all we've got now is the Human RightsCommission and that's a two or three year process at least.
(27:37):
And for someone looking for housing, they can't wait that long for a case.
So, and more often than not, they don't have the resources or know-how to bring forward ahuman rights case.
So we need something easier for people to use.
But yeah, most of all, we need all of our allies together and stand up for us.
(28:00):
That's it for episode five.
A huge thank you to Jodi and Martha.
I'm in awe of their work and their courage to speak out for trans and gender diversepeople.
I'll echo their call to action.
Please be an ally and share this episode far and wide.
Our next episode is the last of the season and it's jam packed.
(28:21):
We will hear about the hopes and visions for safe and accessible housing from several ofthe folks we've talked to already this season.
We will hear from recently appointed Minister of Housing and Infrastructure, GregorRobertson, on his pre-election hopes for housing from a new federal government.
And we'll close out by hearing an inspiring success story from Penticton, BritishColumbia.
(28:42):
100 More Homes started eight years ago now and it originally began, there was a bit of aturnover in senior leadership in the local nonprofits in Penticton.
And so the new leaders started to meet for coffee, just to get to know each other once aweek and start building relationships.
(29:03):
During these coffee chats, they realized there was kind of this overarching issue that wasaffecting and touching all of the work that they were doing and it was housing and
homelessness.
That was Annika, who you will meet in the next episode.
Hear more from her and others in the next and final episode of this season of She.
They.
(29:23):
Us.
I can't wait to share it all with you.
Thank you for joining us.
I'm Andrea Reimer on behalf of the Pan-Canadian Voice for Women's Housing.
Another Everything Podcasts production.
Visit everythingpodcasts.com, a division of Pattison Media.
Please be advised that the topics discussed in this series can be challenging to listen toand explore topics of homelessness, abuse, torture, racism, transphobia, and drug use.
Please take care while listening and if you need support, unfortunately there isn't anational crisis line in Canada, but you can find provincial crisis lines and other
(00:24):
resources on the podcast website.
...
Every time I leave home, I think about where I'm going, if it's safe or not, what I mightface when I get there, what I would do if something happened, make sure that I could get
(00:52):
out of the situation, know if there's any allies that'll be around me.
So I have to think about that everywhere I go.
Welcome back to She.
They.
Us., a podcast brought to you by the Pan-Canadian Voice for Women's Housing.
I'm your host, Andrea Reimer.
(01:13):
I'm a former City Councillor for the City of Vancouver, an Adjunct Professor of Practiceat UBC's School of Public Policy and Global Affairs, and a housing advocate who has
experienced homelessness firsthand.
In our last episode, we met Jesse Jenkinson, a researcher with Unity Health Toronto.
We discussed the overwhelming demand placed on the healthcare system from those seekingshelter with nowhere else to go.
However, there is one group for whom even the hospital may not feel like safe shelter: trans and gender diverse people. (01:39):
undefined
Despite all the challenges we've heard this season for trans women and gender diversepeople, these challenges are even more significant.
And both statistics and lived experiences
(01:59):
show that they are much more likely to experience violence as a result of transphobia,which makes them that much more hidden, which makes them that much more unsafe, and...
you start to see how deep the challenge they are facing is.
But there is some hope.
Since last season, I have learned about two inspiring resources (02:16):
Aoki Ross and The 519.
Let's start with Jodi Gray, who is a trans woman living in Vancouver and also at the timeI spoke with her, the program manager at Aoki Ross House.
This is a little about her housing journey.
(02:37):
So I transitioned when I was living in a basement suite near Trout Lake.
And turns out the owner of the house lived above me and was super friendly when I movedin.
And turns out he was transphobic.
And so after I transitioned, it was a very hostile environment.
(02:57):
So he would laugh at me.
He wouldn't talk to me anymore.
And yeah, I just felt very uncomfortable living there.
But because of the rents in Vancouver, I wasn't able to move.
So I was kind of stuck there knowing that someone that was transphobic had access to myhouse.
It was a very unsafe feeling.
(03:19):
And so my doctor
found out about a housing project that was opening and let me know about it.
It was specifically for transgender diverse and two-spirit people.
So I applied to live there and I didn't get accepted there, but I eventually found co-ophousing in Gastown where I was living with people I worked with and it was safe housing
(03:46):
and...
Yeah, I was very comfortable there and I was thankful to get out of the basement suitewhere I was not safe at all.
While Jodi didn't find housing at the place her doctor referred her to, she did findsomething else.
So when I was talking about my housing journey, I mentioned that my doctor had suggestedaffordable housing that was getting ready to open for transgender diverse and two-spirit
(04:11):
people.
I applied to live there.
It was Aoki Ross House.
And the director at the time who was opening it looked at my application and told me Iwasn't a great fit to live there because it was geared more towards people who weren't
housed at the time.
But the director said, would you like to work here?
(04:34):
So yeah, I was working as a peer support worker at the time.
I'd come through my mental health journey.
I wasn't exactly sure that I was ready to work full time.
And we set up an interview and between talking to the director and the interview, I justreally wrestled with myself because it sounded like such a great opportunity to help
(04:55):
others not have to go through what I went through.
But at the same time, I really didn't know if I was capable of doing the work and doing agood job of it.
So I had the interview.
It went well.
The director invited me down to see the house and
that's when it became really real to me, what this house was going to mean for the peoplethat lived there.
(05:20):
And I knew as soon as I got to the house that I wanted to be a part of it.
And so I accepted the position of program manager at the house.
This is not the hardest thing Jodi has ever done.
I met Jodi when I hosted a TED Talk in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside.
And the only word I can think of is fierce.
(05:43):
After high school, I was in the Navy for two years, served on an aircraft carrier in theStates, which was amazing.
I mean, 5,000 people on one ship, and traveled across the Pacific twice.
And then I came back and went to university in North Carolina, majored in accounting andcorporate finance, and worked in accounting for mostly large manufacturing companies for
(06:10):
about 20 years.
And I worked for General Electric in the States, Air Liquide Canada while I was up here.
Received several awards for Air Liquide, I was named employee of the year for the wholecountry.
And yeah, I was pretty good at my job and I was pretty proud of what I did and learned themanufacturing processes at the plants that I went to, which was amazing.
(06:38):
And then I had a...
pretty serious depressive episode and wasn't able to work.
And after that, I went into peer support training because I found out how horrible themental health system can be for trans people.
And I wanted to try and help improve that.
(06:58):
So in peer support training, after that, I worked at the hospital and worked at CoastMental Health's clubhouse,
helping others who were going through the same journey that I went through.
And while this was going on, I went to a drop-in meeting for trans people.
(07:19):
And at one of the meetings, I just mentioned that I would like to make the mental healthsystem more friendly for trans people.
And a person there told me that...
I couldn't do that because I wasn't a lawyer, I wasn't a politician, I didn't have a bunchof letters behind my name, so I would never be able to get it done.
(07:41):
And I took that as a personal challenge and decided that I wanted to show that ordinarypeople can do extraordinary things.
Full disclosure, I have a trans kid.
And while I haven't lived their experiences, I've supported someone I love very muchliving through it.
(08:01):
And while it's nuanced and not universal, the easiest summary I can give is that life fortrans and gender diverse people is hard.
I asked Jodi to tell me a bit about what her life is like as a trans woman.
I transitioned in 2016.
Since 2016, every time I leave home, I think about where I'm going, if it's safe or not,what I might face when I get there,
(08:31):
what I would do if something happened, make sure that I could get out of the situation,know if there's any allies that'll be around me.
So I have to think about that everywhere I go.
And a good example of that is shortly after I transitioned, I was in a coffee shop nearCommercial and Broadway, and I was just sitting by the window reading a book and having a
(08:56):
coffee.
And a person came in.
The counter was right beside of me and started loudly talking to the barista about howthis person hates trans people.
And yeah, they shouldn't exist.
And it was just horrible hate speech.
And the barista just went along with it, didn't do anything to stop it.
(09:17):
And this guy carried on and on.
And I just sort of sank down in my chair, hoping that no one noticed me.
And I had to wait until this person was finished,
and waited until he left the coffee shop and had been gone five or 10 minutes before Ifelt safe getting up and heading home.
And I had to look over my shoulder the whole way home to make sure that he wasn't there.
(09:41):
So it was a very scary experience.
And then to come home to an unsafe space even there, I couldn't relax even when I gothome.
So it's so important to have a safe space
to come home to where you know you're safe and know you can relax and know that nothing'sgoing to happen to you there.
(10:02):
In a world that is openly hostile and inherently violent to trans people, how do you fundtrans housing?
The city owns the building and we run it for the city.
And the funds we get aren't sufficient to have 24-hour staff in the building, which isneeded because
(10:23):
security for trans people is much more difficult, I think, than a building without transpeople in it.
I'm trying to figure out how to put this, but there's a lot of dangers, a lot of peoplethat prey on trans people.
And they'll find a way to get into the building.
And we've had people come into the building, men especially, that will come in to visitone tenant and end up walking around the building,
(10:51):
knocking on every door trying to get entrance into other tenants rooms.
And so security is very important.
We need 24-hour staff.
We don't have a meal program, which most of the buildings like ours has a meal program.
So I've relied mostly on relationships with other organizations
(11:14):
to try to bring in food, to try and bring in some of the services that the tenants canreally use.
Bring in makeup donations, bring in some trans-affirming garments.
Some of the unique needs that really don't think were taken into consideration when thebudget was set.
So what would Jodi like to see happen?
(11:37):
What I would like to see happen is the entire housing continuum
specifically for transgender diverse and two-spirit people.
So that would be a shelter, which I've opened, an emergency weather shelter, which has nowturned into a temporary shelter through the winter.
So it's open every night through the winter now.
(11:57):
And then a house like Aoki Ross House.
And then a building that's closer to independent living, still staffed, but...
where the people have a self-contained suite, have their own kitchen, their own washroom,and pretty much an independent living situation.
But on top of that, what I would like to see happen is stricter enforcement ofnon-discrimination laws and education for housing providers so that trans people that
(12:32):
don't want to live in exclusive trans housing can live...
in other buildings just like anyone else.
This is a great time to bring in Martha Singh Jennings.
My name is Martha Singh Jennings.
I use they, them and she, her pronouns.
I was contacted by Jodi Gray, who manages Aoki Ross House in Vancouver.
(12:52):
And we've met a couple of times.
The work we do has overlaps because I support a project that's the city of Toronto's first2SLGBTQ adult shelter space.
Martha works at The 519 in Toronto.
So The 519 is a City of Toronto agency and we're also a charity.
We're one of a small group of 11, I believe, what are called the Association of CommunityCentres.
(13:16):
We were the first of its kind.
What it means is we have a model whereby we're an agency of the city, but our activitiesare directed by a community board made up of members of the community that we serve.
We are the city's 2SLGBTQ Community Centre and
have been in some senses such since 1976, so it's going to be our 50th anniversary nextyear.
(13:39):
And at this point in time we are very big agency.
We have around 90 staff members and we run a really broad range of programming andservices for community, as I said 2SLGBTQ community and also our geographic neighbours in
the Downtown East of Toronto.
We have like a really extensive range of services that include early-on children andfamily services, youth programming, programming for older adults, trans specific
(14:07):
programming, newcomer refugee programming, health justice, community wellbeing team thatdo a kind of lot of engagement with folks who are just kind of like moving through the
space in the building, like activating our lobby area and doing outreach in the park andthe local area around our building.
We also have an education and training team which has been running in some form or othersince the Trans ACCESS Project which started in 2001.
(14:38):
The Trans ACCESS Project is what led me to reach out to Martha.
I wanted to learn more about how non-trans oriented organizations are typically blind totrans needs.
Specifically, women shelters when a trans woman shows up in need.
Let's dive a bit deeper into that.
The Trans ACCESS Project was kind of the first documented point in time where The 519 asan agency led by trans staff started to provide a coordinated response to that.
(15:06):
But it's something that was being...
like the effective exclusion from support services, homelessness support services wasbeing reported and documented by community for around a decade before that based on, you
know,
written record, I'm sure there was a lot going on in conversation as well.
And since that time, 2001, when the Trans ACCESS Project started, we've continued to dothat work.
(15:29):
So the Trans ACCESS Project grew into what is now our education and training department.
Our education and training department has for a really long time provided training throughToronto Hostels Training Centre, which is a body that provides courses to shelter sector
staff on 2SLGBTQ inclusion in spaces.
(15:49):
More recently that's developed in 2022.
We received some funding from the City of Toronto to refresh and expand that training.
So now we actually offer directly rather than through Toronto Hostels Training Centre, weoffer sector capacity building training to Toronto shelter sector.
That consists of, it's a day long training that's intended to support staff in what wewant, which is a transformation of the shelter sector to create a system that is
(16:19):
inclusive across the board for trans folks, rather than what we still experience now,despite decades of activism and advocacy from community, which is still disturbing amount
of transphobia in the form of verbal and physical harassment and exclusion from services.
(16:39):
We don't see very commonly the type of really egregious treatment from staff as was prettycommon
not even that long ago in terms of how folks were treated during intake, the kind ofquestions that they were being asked or kind of conditions that they were being expected
to meet.
We don't see that as commonly, but we do still see people feeling unwelcome, being made tofeel unwelcome by staff in gendered spaces.
(17:07):
We do still, something that is still disturbingly common is unchecked transphobia andparticularly racialized transphobia, so misogynoir,
trans misogynoir and anti-indigenous transphobia from other residents in shared spacesthat is not adequately responded to by staff.
(17:29):
Of course, we can't expect staff at those spaces to eradicate people's beliefs, but we doexpect them to respond appropriately when harassment and discrimination is experienced.
What we know about that is if it is in fact the case that
trans folks and particularly racialized trans folks are not being heard when they expresstheir experiences.
(17:53):
And what I mean by that is experiences of racialized transphobia from other shelterresidents.
Then it can and does lead to a breakdown of supports.
So initially just a distrust of staff in those spaces and minimally reducing the trustthat they have in the staff in those spaces.
(18:13):
And kind of like on the more extreme end of that, discharge from that space, because theyare the person who's raising an issue and they're the person being heard to raise an issue
and not having that being taken seriously and dealt with adequately and being framed asthe instigator because they were the person that raised it.
And discharge has all kinds of complications and implications that I'm sure you know,which for those who don't, the primary one is if you are receiving supports in that
(18:37):
specific space to...
move along your housing journey, find other forms of accommodation.
you're discharged from a space, you usually don't continue to receive services from theperson you were receiving services from.
I asked Martha, where do people go when this happens?
All kinds of difficult
situations. Absolutely some people end up sleeping outside and in
(18:59):
encampments. Some people will end up in exploitative situations, for example, exchangingsex for
staying with abusive family members, moving consistently between different people, usinghookup sites to find places to stay.
There's all different kinds of situations that people might find themselves in.
(19:21):
And shelter avoidance is very, very significant and real for trans folks.
Even those who haven't had experiences in shelter, the narrative and the communityawareness about the types of experiences people have is so, so visible.
People are so aware of it.
Even folks who haven't
personally experienced those harms, discriminations and lack of access will avoid shelterbecause of the stories that they've heard.
(19:46):
People will find themselves in extremely harmful and difficult situations to avoid shelterbecause shelter is so harmful for a lot of people, that in the balance of things.
They decide that, for example, staying in an abusive relationship is the better of thoseoptions.
(20:06):
As Martha alluded to earlier in her interview, trans is not the sole identity of manytrans people.
For example, there are many indigenous trans folks, black trans folks, and people of colorwho are trans.
Added to that may be any number of things, including immigration status.
There are a number of newcomers who are queer refugees.
(20:29):
I asked Martha to tell me a bit more about that.
And it's not surprising to hear that they are especially vulnerable, but what issurprising is the ways that they are.
Canada is a hot location for queer migration, in part because we legislatively have a lotof protections for queer and trans folks at the moment.
(20:51):
Hopefully those stick around.
And that is also to a degree true for immigration legislation, in terms of like who can beconsidered a spouse,
for example.
So there's a lot of newcomers in Toronto, and many of them are queer and trans newcomers.
We at The 519 have a huge refugee newcomer program, New to Canada program that servesthousands of people every year, folks who are refugee claimants, permanent residents,
(21:18):
resettled refugees, people with all different types of immigration status.
And we also, my team specifically supports a project called Pacewood,
which is a collaboration with Homes First Society, one of Toronto's biggest shelterproviders.
And Pacewood is a 20 bed emergency shelter for LGBTQ newcomers.
(21:41):
And we reserve 50%, so 10 of the beds for trans and gender diverse folks.
This is absolutely very much needed.
There are a huge number of newcomers in Toronto shelters.
For background, Canada had over 190,000 new refugee claimants in 2024.
(22:03):
There are no numbers kept on how many of those were queer, but we do know that the numberof queer refugees has been sharply on the rise globally.
In Toronto in 2024, 6,312 refugee claimants spent one or more nights in the city's sheltersystem.
It's a very small space and we're very grateful to have it.
(22:23):
It would be great
to have more beds, it would be great to have space that was for 2SLGBTQ folks that wasn'tspecifically for newcomers because that's also a really big need.
Martha brings up a very important point about a specific challenge that queer refugeeclimates face.
So you think about the fact that having a social network is a protective factor forstaying housed or certainly from becoming unhoused.
(22:46):
The lack of a social network is a risk factor.
And as a newcomer, you're automatically
you have your social network reduced because you've moved to a new place.
As a racialized newcomer, you have it reduced because of racism that exists in ourcountry.
As a queer or trans newcomer, you have it reduced because you might not feel able to or beable to access the kind of supports that other newcomers who aren't queer or trans might
(23:15):
be able to access.
So for example, you wouldn't be able to stay with your aunt's friend because she's atransphobe, for example.
And so
all of those add a layer or kind of remove a layer of protection of a social network.
And whilst someone who's a cisgender queer person might be able to like fly under theradar or kind of receive some grace from community, oftentimes trans people can't.
(23:40):
So absolutely a lot of queer people aren't able to access diaspora communities whenthey're newcomers in Canada and Toronto.
But it's even less the case for trans folks that they can safely
access the resources within their diaspora communities.
For example, like a church that serves your cultural community might not be willing toserve you.
(24:01):
I just wanted to highlight that newcomers, particularly racialized newcomers, particularlyracialized LGBTQ, particularly racialized trans newcomers have very limited access to
social networks and community and therefore don't have those protective factors
of social networks.
(24:22):
Of course, there are exceptions, but for most folks, that's the situation.
As I wrapped up my conversation with Martha, I asked her if she was hopeful that thefederal election would change anything.
At the time of recording this interview, we were mere days away from it.
I wouldn't use the word hopeful.
I don't feel hopeless.
Let's say that.
I don't feel hopeless.
(24:44):
But I wouldn't say I feel hopeful.
So I think that there are things happening that in the next
five to 10 years could bear fruit to ease the suffering in our communities.
But I don't think it's a short term kind of a frame.
If anything, it's going to get a lot worse because we don't have controls on the privatemarket rental system as would be needed to try to minimize the amount of evictions and
(25:15):
things that are happening.
I feel hopeful about the way that
my communities gather around each other and support each other.
And I feel hopeful about the ways that we can become even more connected with each otherand create more opportunities for mutual aid and collective care in our communities.
(25:38):
I think that the systems that impact us still don't uphold our needs and rights very wellin practice.
And whilst we do have some vocal champions, we don't yet have the critical mass tooverturn certain kind of like status quo issues.
(26:00):
Jodi echoes a similar sentiment.
To everyone, I would say that we need a lot more allies to speak up for us.
Just 1% of the population, I think we probably get overlooked a lot for the housing, thelimited housing dollars that are there.
So we need more people to make noise about this issue and make sure it's in thepolitician's face.
(26:25):
We need policy to bring about the entire housing continuum for trans people so that we'resafe all the way through our housing journey.
And we need the policy to provide education to housing providers and provide a feedbackloop where
(26:46):
if trans people are discriminated against, they can call in, it can be recorded and say,landlord X has 10 complaints in the last year about discrimination against trans people.
That's data that you can do something about and you can go to the landlord and provideeducation to the landlord and make all housing safe for trans people.
(27:12):
And...
we've already got a phone line at the residential tenancy branch.
Just make it part of that phone line and have someone specific there to take thecomplaints.
But we definitely need that feedback loop because all we've got now is the Human RightsCommission and that's a two or three year process at least.
(27:37):
And for someone looking for housing, they can't wait that long for a case.
So, and more often than not, they don't have the resources or know-how to bring forward ahuman rights case.
So we need something easier for people to use.
But yeah, most of all, we need all of our allies together and stand up for us.
(28:00):
That's it for episode five.
A huge thank you to Jodi and Martha.
I'm in awe of their work and their courage to speak out for trans and gender diversepeople.
I'll echo their call to action.
Please be an ally and share this episode far and wide.
Our next episode is the last of the season and it's jam packed.
(28:21):
We will hear about the hopes and visions for safe and accessible housing from several ofthe folks we've talked to already this season.
We will hear from recently appointed Minister of Housing and Infrastructure, GregorRobertson, on his pre-election hopes for housing from a new federal government.
And we'll close out by hearing an inspiring success story from Penticton, BritishColumbia.
(28:42):
100 More Homes started eight years ago now and it originally began, there was a bit of aturnover in senior leadership in the local nonprofits in Penticton.
And so the new leaders started to meet for coffee, just to get to know each other once aweek and start building relationships.
(29:03):
During these coffee chats, they realized there was kind of this overarching issue that wasaffecting and touching all of the work that they were doing and it was housing and
homelessness.
That was Annika, who you will meet in the next episode.
Hear more from her and others in the next and final episode of this season of She.
They.
(29:23):
Us.
I can't wait to share it all with you.
Thank you for joining us.
I'm Andrea Reimer on behalf of the Pan-Canadian Voice for Women's Housing.
Another Everything Podcasts production.
Visit everythingpodcasts.com, a division of Pattison Media.
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