"Family Tree" - An Interview with 3GNY President Elizabeth Kamens - Shebrew in the City

Episode Transcript
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Nicole Kelly (00:00):
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Hi, I'm Nicole Kelly andShebrew in in the City and

(00:33):
today I am talking withElizabeth Kamens, who is the
president of a really amazingorganization called 3GNY that I
actually found out about becauseof one of my other guests and
I'm really excited to talk aboutwhat the organization does and
Elizabeth's family story as well.
How are you doing this evening?

Elizabeth Kamens (00:51):
I'm doing great.
How are you?
I'm good.
It's nice to see you again.

I know it's nice to see you again.
I'm good.
So I usually like to start offby asking my guests a little bit
about kind of their backgroundin general, where they're from.
You know what, if any, jewishupbringing they had?
Did they have a bar or batmitzvah, that sort of thing?

Sure.
So I grew up in Yardley,Pennsylvania, which is like very
northern suburbs ofPhiladelphia in Bucks County,
and I grew up in an observantreform household.
So I think a lot of peoplethink, oh well, if you're reform
, how can you really beobservant?
But we belong to a temple.

(01:29):
My parents still belong to thattemple.
We observed all of the holidays, all of the traditions, went to
synagogue, frequently had a batmitzvah.
Then after my bat mitzvah inthe reform movement you have
confirmation.
So I went on and becameconfirmed and then I even was an
assistant Hebrew school teacherfor a few years.
So remained very involved inthe community, in the synagogue,

(01:53):
and definitely Judaism was animportant part of my upbringing.

What did?
Because I've never actually hada guest who was confirmed, and
I grew up conservative, sothat's not something that we did
.
And I know what my synagoguedoes.
One of the things they dothat's really cool is they do a
trip to Berlin, because that'swhere the reform movement was
founded.
So that's part of their um,their confirmation process.
What was that like for you?
Wow, that's amazing.

(02:18):
I know it's pretty fancy andthey take them to you know the
book burning memorial and thetrain platform in Berlin, which
is like I literally I'm we'regoing to do an episode
eventually about this trip myhusband and I took to Poland and
Germany.
But I like, lost it on thattrain platform, like I was very,
I was fine, and then we gotthere and I just couldn't handle
my life.

Yes, I know exactly where, what you're,
where you're talking about,where you're referring to,
because I was there on a trip aswell, but it's very powerful.
I mean all of the places thatthey bring you, that that
signify everything from the past.
It is, it's extremely powerful.
Yes, Um, but the I wish we hadgone to.
Berlin when I was gettingconfirmed, that is for sure.

(03:00):
But it was honestly.
But it was honestly it was alot of just expanded education.
Like the rabbi of the templetaught our 10th grade
confirmation and he was actuallyreally into mystical Judaism
and the Kabbalah, so we kind ofwent into that a lot and then in

(03:26):
eighth and ninth grade, youknow, I think there was a lot.
There's honestly a lot ofmissed opportunity, I think,
because you have these studentsthat are there and whether
you're, you know, engaging themin current events or whatnot,
that we did not do.
So it was, you know, somethingthat kind of like we carried
through in terms of my Hebreweducation.
But you know, I remember reallythe 10th grade with the rabbi
to be the most, I guess, justdifferent than what the prior,

(03:50):
you know, years of my Hebrewschool education had been, which
was mostly prayers and holidaysand Israel and that kind of
thing.

My favorite question to ask people is what
was their theme of their batmitzvah?
What was their theme of?

their bat mitzvah.
So I actually didn't have atheme.
It was just a really niceelegant affair that I, that my
parents, threw.
But there wasn't a specifictheme.
It wasn't like movies or tripsor cities or anything like that,
it was literally it was justthe event, which I think was

(04:23):
very meaningful.
I mean, I think you know peoplecan kind of it's insane how
people get so elaborate withtheir feelings.

I've seen like disgustingly elaborate things on
Instagram because I follow acouple of Jewish event planners
who are dealing with people whoare in a extremely different tax
bracket than I am so like, andalso my husband he's like.
This is disgusting because thisis a party for a child and,
like I do, I do love the idea oflike very simplistic because

(04:51):
it's not about the party.
But I guess sometimes, whenyou're 13, it is about the party
but it's not really about theparty.

No, that's exactly right, and I think maybe
my opinion is a littlecontroversial, but I don't
necessarily and I also didn'thave one but subscribe to the
theme idea.
I think it's.
Really.
It does kind of take away fromwhat you're actually doing and
the meaning behind the momentousoccasion that is the Bar or Bat
Mitzvah, and you know, when youlook back to sometimes you say,

(05:17):
oh wow, that's what I wasinterested in that time.
But the lack of a theme I thinkis more timeless.

Yeah, one of the rabbis at our synagogue.
She didn't have a theme either.
She is a twin and I guess oneof the moms in, like her Hebrew
school class, made cake.
So they did like a big cake,like a flower basket, and there
was like a basketball for herbrother and I don't remember
what she said was for her, butit was like a little thing on
the cake was kind of their wastheir thing.
Oh, a Tiffany box little thingon the cake was kind of their

(05:47):
was their thing.
Oh, a tiffany box.
I'm glad that you rememberedthat and it's funny because one
of the dads in my daughter'sclass was best friends with her
brother going up and he's like Idon't remember if there is a
theme at their their wow, Idon't know.
I'm just obsessed with the ideaof like the crazy ridiculous
parties and the history behindthat, because at some point it
started and I want to, as like abudding historian, want to

(06:07):
figure out when that started andwrite a book about it, because
I think it's so fascinating andit's such a North American thing
.

Yes, that's a very good point, and it is true
that it didn't start with that.
You know, like back in the dayit was, it was a service and
that was it.
So then somehow it evolved intothis whole other thing that
it's become now.

Yeah, Like people who had more money would have.
Like like a nicer party at arestaurant maybe, but a lot of
people would do something intheir backyard or at their house
and they wouldn't you know.
But there are people who havelike 500 people at Bar, bar
Mitzvahs.
Now it's like a wedding.

Yes, yes it is .

So then it's what do you build up to?
Well, that's what my that wasmy mother's argument is because
I wanted a nighttime partyreally badly, but she was like
I'd rather spend more money andsave for your wedding, because
no one sits around and talksabout your bar, about mitzvahs.
And I was like that's all I donow is talk to people about
their bat mitzvahs, so yourreasoning is a little, a little
off on that.
And I posted something on likea video about being at like the

(07:02):
25th anniversary year of my batmitzvah and people commented on
it remembering how much fun theyhad.

Patrick Kelly (07:07):
So I was like see people do remember bar and bat
mitzvahs.

Yeah, I was really I was actually really surprised
.
I want to put that on like abusiness card whatever, I end up
doing.
People still talk about my batmitzvah.
It's a fun thing.
So, going back to kind of whywe're talking in general, can
you tell me about theorganization that you are the
president of and how theorganization got started?

Sure.
So I'm the president of anorganization called 3GNY, which
is an education nonprofit and itwas founded back in 2005 by six
grandchildren of Holocaustsurvivors and the education is
really there's a few differentelements to it but essentially

(07:55):
back when it was founded thegrandchildren were looking for
like-minded individuals who werelooking to share and preserve
their grandparents' stories,being that as the third
generation they were able tohear for the most part their
grandparents' stories directlyand they were the last

(08:16):
essentially living link of theindividuals who could hear those
stories.
And when their grandparents hadpassed away or you know, some
were still alive, but theyrealized that when they passed
away they would likely be thelast link that had heard those
stories, actually that testimonydirectly from the survivor.
So the organization was started, you know, back in 2005 with

(08:40):
kind of a general open communitymindset.
But it's evolved a lot over theyears and one of our main
pieces now is what we call thewe Do program or we Educate,
where we have a training programand we enable grandchildren of
survivors to kind of constructand mold their grandparents'

(09:02):
stories in such a way that wethen have connections with
schools and we can send thesegrandchildren, the third
generation, into schools to helpto share and really preserve
the legacy, in conjunction withwhether it's Holocaust education
or World War II, or evendiversity, bullying, all of

(09:23):
those types of things, and thenalso 3G and Y.
The other really largecomponent is the community and
the social element and justgathering together and knowing
that you know this sharedhistory is amongst everyone.
That's a part of it.

What school?
What age of?
Let me phrase this in anintelligent way what are the
ages of the school children thatyou are going and talking to?

So the youngest is about fourth, fifth
grade, which some people thinkcould be a little bit young, but
it really depends on whatyou're sharing with them.
And then we go all the way upto seniors in high school.
So you know 18 years old andwe've definitely gone into
colleges as well, but I wouldsay that the main range is like

(10:08):
older end of elementary school,middle school and high school.

Are these public schools?
Are they private schools?
How do you get in touch withthe school?
Like, what is that process?
I know I didn't write this downas a question, but you know how
does that work.
Do you have like an ongoingrelationship with some schools
or they reach out to you?

It's really both, you know, we, and that's
one of the most important things.
So, if anyone is listening thathas a connection to a school or
is an educator, we areconstantly seeking classrooms to
go into, whether it's privateschools, whether it's, you know,
public schools, parochialschools, really anything it we

(10:46):
can fit into any type ofcurriculum.
And even if it's, you know,public schools, parochial
schools, really anything we canfit into any type of curriculum.
And even if it's not, you know,holocaust-related curriculum,
english or, you know again, somekinds of diversity education, a
lot of different things that wecan go into.
But we are constantly trying tosolicit new schools, new
teachers, and then a lot ofteachers have had our speakers

(11:10):
come for years and we're just,you know, every year we'll reach
out or they'll reach out to usand say, you know this, my
lesson is coming up on, you know, world War II, or the students
will be reading Knight in May.
Can a speaker come after wefinish this lesson plan?
And we hope that by ourspeakers going into schools we

(11:30):
develop a relationship with alot of the teachers who usually
are there for a very long timein terms of their careers and
longevities in these schools,and that we can really develop a
relationship with them.

I think that's one of the things that's really
important about Holocausteducation is it's not just about
the Holocaust, it does talk,you know, things like racism and
diversity and bullying.
It kind of plays into that.
And I think you know there'sthat scary statistic that you
know like how many I don't.
I'm sure you know the statistic, I can't think today, the
percentage of school childrenwho don't know about the

(12:02):
Holocaust and that six millionJews died, it's a staggeringly
high one third, um, so that, yes, thank you, thank you, um, um.
So that one third of school agechildren don't know that six
million Jews died in theHolocaust.
And I think what's so importantabout your organization is
talking about being the lastgeneration as we get further and

(12:23):
further away.
You know we're almost 100 yearsto the point where the Nazi
party took over.
You know, that'll be in 2033.
And that's really scary tothink that the more we distance
ourselves from this, the lessand less I think people will
know about this.
And then we get into that weirdarea of Holocaust denial,
making excuses, and it's just.
It's a little crazy to me.

(12:44):
No, it's a little crazy to me.

No, it's true, and you know a lot of states I
mean not enough, but some in NewJersey and New York do have
mandated Holocaust education.
So that is something that is,you know, we, we can tie in with
that, obviously in theirmandated curriculum, which is
important.

Yes, in another life I want to be a lobbyist who
tries to get every state inAmerica and Canada, who
especially needs it right nowbecause they're a mess up there
with antisemitism at the moment.
I keep seeing stuff on Instagramand we part of.
We are also like our company's,also in Toronto, and I'm like I
love Canada.
I think Canadians are verywelcoming.
Clearly, they are antisemiticfor some reason as well, I know,

(13:25):
I know.
So at some point I think maybenot me, but someone should kind
of start lobbying for that,because I think it's super
important.
It shouldn't just be like apage in a European history book,
correct?

Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
I know I didn't grow up with it.
I mean we didn't have educationor mandated at all whatsoever
in my, in my school curriculum,which was a problem.
I mean it definitely was needed.

I do know anything that I learned.
It was through Hebrew school,my third grade Hebrew school
teacher was an Auschwitzsurvivor.
She was there when she was 13,told this horribly disturbing
story which may not have beenappropriate for eight year olds,
about how she dug the grave forher parents.
So like I will never, for Iwill never forget that.
But and then I remember when Iwas in elementary school.

(14:13):
It was the first timeSchindler's List was shown on
television and it was like a bigthing whether or not people
were allowed to watch it.
I don't, I wasn't that like Iwasn't allowed to watch it, but
I didn't watch it.

I don't it wasn't that like I wasn't
allowed to watch it, but Ididn't watch it and I'm kind of
glad because I think watching itfor the first time as an adult
was much more powerful.

But I did read the Diary of Anne Frank, I think
when I got to junior high andhigh school there wasn't really
any curriculum directly aboutthe Holocaust.
My husband is saying that he,he's they.
They didn't really talk aboutit other than this is something
that happened.
Uh, and you?
know we did obviously causewe're from California.
They talked a lot about theJapanese internment camps.
I think we talked more aboutthat than the Holocaust, which

(15:01):
California curriculum tends tofocus a lot on.
California, like in fourthgrade, the entire state.
It's only California history.
So, I think that might be partof it.
But I mean, who knows, maybe inmy high school and junior high
it's changed, but it was.
You know, we read night.
But I also went to a privateschool, so I think that was part
of the reason we read night.
I don't know if it's something.
I would have happened in fifthgrade if I'd gone to a public

(15:24):
school but, sure my daughtergoes to a Jewish day school and
I I know that, um, I rememberreading an email that the
principal actually comes andreads the book with them night.
So you know it's kind of like athing he really cherishes doing
with the kids.
So I'm, I'm sure I mean alsobecause of me and what I'm

(15:51):
trying to go to school for mydaughter will be well aware of
all these things.
But it's kind of crazy a littlebit Looking back on the lack of
education about what I considerto be probably the worst thing
that ever happened in thehistory of the world.

Yes, yes, no, I agree.
I mean, I went to a publicschool and I had, I had a
Holocaust denier in my, you know, in one of my classes as a
senior, and there was no, therewas no curriculum at all.
So I don't even remember.
Obviously I knew about it andwas almost self-educated in
certain ways, but there wasnothing and it would have been

(16:20):
very, very necessary and needed,and it would have been very,
very necessary and needed.
You know, now, looking back,like how easy would it have been
to have something to provide,to maybe stop that.

But who knows.
I've never understood Holocaustdeniers because the Nazis were
nothing, if like very specificabout keeping records of
everything and there's a lot offootage of stuff.
So I just don't understand theidea of just denying something
that's very well documented.
You know, I agree.
I agree it's, I don't know it's.
We, when we were, went toAuschwitz, we asked our tour

(16:54):
guide if she'd ever had one, andshe said she had a lady whose
son was kind of like I don'tknow what.
Did she say?
That that he was like not sure,I guess, which is a weird thing
to say.
He was like not sure, I guess,which is a weird thing to say
I'm not sure if this happened.
But no one who, like, wasoutright a Holocaust denier,

(17:15):
which is good, I guess, as ifyou're taking people there, wow,
so, going back to 3GNY, solet's say, someone listening or
someone who's following me onsocial media is a third
generation of a Holocaustsurvivor.
So how would they get involvedwith the organization?

Sure, so we absolutely welcome anyone who
would like to be involved.
I would say the easiest thingis you can email us at info at
3G New York dot org or you canreach out to me, to any of the
individuals that are involved.
We have an Instagram page 3GNY.
Additionally, we have a lot ofevents that you're free to come

(17:50):
to at any time, so our nextevent will be a virtual event.
So the next in-person eventwill be for Yom HaShoah, which
is Monday, may 6th, and that isat the Stanton Street Shul.
So feel free to come.
It's totally open and we welcomeanyone from the public.

(18:13):
We just ask that you wouldregister in advance.
But if you really want to joinour speaker training program or
just become involved in anycapacity, feel free to email us
and we do try, if people arereally interested in getting
involved, to have a call withthem and just explain the
organization and see what theirbackground is, what they might
want to be interested in,whether it's helping us plan

(18:34):
events, whether it's fundraising, school outreach you know
outreach.
So any of those things, wewelcome anyone to become
involved.

So a big part of what you do is sending the 3GN
wires.
I guess we're going to callthem into schools to educate
people.
So what type of training do youprovide people?
So let's say, you know, peopledon't have a history of public
speaking, maybe they're a littlebit nervous.
So what is the type of trainingthat you provide them to be
able to educate people?

So it's really grounded in constructing your
grandparent's story.
And then with that, weunderstand that not everyone
loves to public speak or tospeak publicly or is, you know,
really wanting to get out thereand share.
But we don't focus as much onthat.
But because the story is sopersonal, I think a lot of

(19:26):
people are able to overcome that, to be honest, and we have our
training is all virtual, so it'sfour weeks long and each week
is focuses on a certain part ofkind of constructing the story
or taking what you have, theknowledge that you have, or
information or the history fromyour grandparent and kind of

(19:49):
culling it together to have a 30or so minute presentation to
bring into a school.
So you know, the first week iskind of an overview.
The second week we ask studentsto come back with an outline of
their grandparents' history,their story, and then the next
week, the third week, we askstudents to come with like a
really specific story from theirgrandparents' larger story.

(20:11):
So some you know whether it'ssome type of incident or you
know something that happenedthat they can the speaker, the
grandchild can really put a lotof detail into, and then by the
last week they'll come with kindof a rough presentation and
they'll share it with a smallergroup breakout rooms on Zoom.
So by the time the fourth weekcomes, they've kind of drilled

(20:36):
down the facts.
And a lot of grandchildren, whenthey come to the class, they
might have overwhelming amountsof information from their
grandparents or they might havenone.
So it's really a variety ofthings.
And a lot of times they use thefour-week program to then go
back.
Or you know, okay, I'm going tobe going to my parents' or my

(20:58):
relatives' house in the nextmonth.
So like, let me see if I canask some questions or get more
information while I'm goingthrough this class.
Me see if I can ask somequestions or get more
information while I'm goingthrough this class to see if I
can pull out more details forthe story.
And then we also always offer if, if speakers want additional
sessions to kind of finessetheir story.
Or you know, if it's been a yearsince they've gone into a

(21:19):
classroom, for example, andthey're like I'm a little rusty,
I want to brush up and I wantto have someone listen to the
story and make sure it flows orit makes sense, we always offer
that as well, so the speaker canreach out to us and we'll
always provide someone who's alittle bit more senior, I guess,
within the organization or hasbeen really speaking a lot, and

(21:42):
have them listen in.
And then, throughout eachquarter or so, we do have
additional programs where we'llhave people from the outside
come in and offer sessions withus.
So whether that's Rachel Ceratiis an example and she wrote a
memoir about her grandma withher grandmother's story, and she

(22:04):
came to us a few years ago nowand did a kind of storytelling
presentation and how memoryworks.
And we've had another programwith more recently, actually
since October 7th, where we hadpeople from the AJC come in and
they spoke with us about dealingwith questions relating to

(22:26):
Israel or anti-Semitism, becausethat isn't something that we
really go over in the trainingbut obviously is important and
prevalent now.

That makes sense Is part of the presentation
visual.
Do they present pictures orvideo or things like that along
with talking?

Yes, absolutely.
And again, it's reallydependent upon what the family
has.
So a lot of survivors were ableto give testimony to USC Shoah
and they might have recordings,but we do tell the grandchildren
that we want it to be in theirvoice, even though it's their
grandparent's story, so maybethey could include a clip of
their grandparents, butotherwise they could show the

(23:07):
whole story from theirgrandparents.
So we really wanted to takethat and create their own
presentation and a lot ofsurvivors survived with nothing.
They have no photographs, theyhave nothing from their lives
before the war.
So it really is so varied interms of what people have when
they go to make theirpresentation.

(23:28):
So if people want to use mapsor other different types of
resources just to make itinteractive for the students but
I would say the majority,almost all really go into it
with some kind of visualpresentation PowerPoint, so at
least the students are able toput visuals with the story.

How many speakers do you have that go out to the
schools?

We have in the hundreds.
I mean, we've trained over 500speakers to date and each year
it's growing more and more.
So each class we have about 12to 14 volunteers, volunteer
speakers.
We have about 12 to 14volunteers, volunteer speakers,
and then we run about, at thispoint, about four or so classes
a year.

(24:10):
So we have, you know, hundredsof speakers and, granted, not
everyone wants to be speaking atthe same time, but I believe
last year, I think, we went intolike over 60 classrooms.
So it's great and you know,obviously the more the better.

So what, in your opinion, makes 3GNY speakers
different than people who areHolocaust educators, who are not
descendants of survivors?

So 3GNY speakers are not claiming to be
experts in the Holocaust, butrather experts in our
grandparent story.
So I think that's a hugedifference in terms of scholars
in the Holocaust and we do tellteachers.
We do not teach the Holocaust,but we did hear our grandparent
stories firsthand, so it's ableto connect a real face with the

(25:02):
story and we're hoping that,providing that close connection
to students.
It's more real and it's more,it's more present than just
reading a story in a textbook.
But you know, by any means, wein our, in our training program
and in how we aid speakers to gointo classrooms, we do not, you

(25:24):
know, claim to be experts inthe Holocaust, but we do say you
know.
A lot of times students will askquestions.
So it's good for the speakersto if they're aware of basic
events, particularly if they'rementioning things within their
story.
So you know, for example, in mygrandparents' stories I talk
about when the Nuremberg lawscame into effect.

(25:45):
So I might briefly explain that.
But I don't know, some studentsmight not have any education on
that within their curriculum,so I might be explaining that to
them for the first time.
So you want to be able to knowwhat you're talking about,
obviously, but at the same timewe're not claiming to be experts
, gotcha.

So I saw that you recently had your first 4G
speaker, which is crazy that youknow someone knew their great
grandparents and was able tokind of get this story from them
.
Is this something that yourorganization is hoping to
cultivate further, even to thepoint of people maybe who didn't
know their great grandparents,or are you trying to keep that

(26:26):
direct line of connection withthe speakers?

So we are absolutely, you know, open to
4Gs and I really think it'sinevitable because as we as the
3Gs age and the next generationcomes in, you know, a lot of the
4Gs were able to meet theirgrandparents and hear those
stories as well firsthand.
And if they didn't, they'restill connected through their

(26:52):
parents who are the 3Gs.
So I think it's exciting.
And you know, obviously, ourlast speaker, erin, she had a
very close relationship with hergreat-grandmother and it's
really phenomenal that she wasable to present that story and
had such a close connection andknew the story so well.

(27:13):
So I think it's just inevitablethat eventually the 4Gs will
come into action and a lot ofthe 3Gs too.
Their kids are becoming acertain age where they're like
can they come to events, Arethey are, they're becoming
interested in this history thatis within their family.
So it's really wonderful.

So you talked about a couple of events.
What are?
You know?
What are some of the eventsthat you've held in the past,
and I know you talked about theOm Hoshua event.
Maybe some things you're goingto be planning in the future as
well.

So a lot of our events are educational.
We just had an event last weekactually, where we had a
photographer author who came outwith a book featuring who.
He shot it during COVIDactually and he interviewed over
100 survivors.
Shot it during COVID actuallyand he interviewed over 100

(28:06):
survivors.
It's a picture book but there'sstories about each of the
photos that he took of thesesurvivors and he interviewed two
survivors that are featured inthe book and we had a book talk,
essentially at Hebrew UnionCollege downtown, which was
really.
It was a really exceptionalevent and really meaningful to
hear the photographer and authorand then these two survivors

(28:30):
who were in the book and reallymore about their story and their
background.
So we'll have different eventslike that.
Some of our main events that wehave each year are, every fall,
in October, we have anintergenerational brunch, which
is really lovely.
We have, you know, againmentioning 4Gs to survivors

(28:51):
attend, which is really nicebecause a lot of 2Gs as well are
now at an age where they're the, you know, senior generation,
so it was their parents.
So we have a lot of 2Gs whoattend and that's always a
really well-received event.
Every January, usually aroundInternational Holocaust
Remembrance Day, we'll have aShabbat dinner and during the

(29:15):
year we'll have some just purelysocial happy hours, which are
nice, and we also, during thepandemic, actually started a
program that was virtual, calledwe Do Wednesdays, where we have
a volunteer speaker presentwhat they would go into a school
and present, which is reallygreat because it gives access to

(29:37):
the presentation not just forschool age.
So you know you're sharing itwith older generations, you know
again 2Gs and like friends andpeople that wouldn't necessarily
hear these peers, colleagueshear these presentations.
So that has been really wellreceived and we were doing them
like every other week for aperiod of time but now it's

(29:57):
tapered off to a few a year.
But that's another main eventthat we have gotten a lot of
really great feedback.

So what about people like myself who are not
descendants?
Is there a place within yourorganization for them attending
events, things like that?

Absolutely so.
I think our community eventsprovide a really supportive
forum for the grandchildren ofsurvivors, but also for anyone
that is interested or wanting tobe involved.
I think one of the words thatwe describe a lot for the type
of person that comes to ourevents are Menchie individuals,

(30:37):
and I think that really passesthrough.
So, you know, you don't have tobe a grandchild of survivors to
come to like the book talk thatwe had last week.
You know, in fact there were bea grandchild of survivors to
come to like the book talk thatwe had last week.
You know, in fact there were alot of people that were there
that didn't have any familialconnections to the Holocaust but
rather wanted to hear thisauthor and wanted to hear these
survivors.
Same goes for ourintergenerational brunch.

(30:59):
You know people can come andthey don't necessarily have to
have that community, but we alot in the past have had
survivors speak during thatbrunch.
So that's another, you know,way to just be a part of our
community.
And you know, same again forthe Shabbat dinner or a lot of
our events.
You don't have to necessarilybe part of our WeDo program,

(31:21):
which is the volunteer programto go into schools.
You can really, just you knowcome to our events and whether
they're in person or virtual,and our community, I think,
speaks for itself.

What made you decide to become president?
Were you on the board before,or what kind of sparked that in
you?

Yes, so I've always been very involved, ever
since I was young and I wasinvolved in 3GNY for a while and
then became a board member in2021.
And really it evolved in thatour president had been in the
position for a while like sixyears and he was looking to stay

(32:00):
on the board, but step down.
And he actually just asked meand I mean, I did think about it
for a while and I had to bevoted on as president by the
board, but step down.
And he actually just asked meand I mean, I did think about it
for a while, um, and I had tobe voted on as the president by
the board.
So it wasn't just like, yeah,sure.
I'll do it Um but but yeah, so Ithink it was more just, um, you
know, wanting to make sure Iwould be able to handle the time
commitment with work and youknow, but I had already been a

(32:22):
board member prior, so itprogression in a way.

How long have you been president Since last?

like January.

Okay, okay, has it been interesting, kind of
coming out of COVID and workingwith programming and all of that
.

Yes, very.
We let's see last year, I thinkno, maybe 2022 was probably the
first year that we were fullylike doing things, but I think
we didn't see the results ofpeople attending events, maybe
until last year.
Even so, it was veryinteresting, but it's good.
I mean, I think the one thingthat we see is for our social

(33:01):
events, like happy hours.
People really want to be socialand want to be out there with
the community.
I think for so long with thecommunity, I think for so long
we were inhibited with not beingable to be in a crowded bar
with people that are like-mindedand, you know, share like a
commonality.
So it's really nice and I thinkwe've found that.
You know, we've had a lot ofsuccess in our in-person events.

So I want to talk about your family story.
So you know, if someone doesn'thave the opportunity to see you
speak, I want them to be ableto hear that.
So on the website it says thatyour grandparents are Holocaust
refugees.
Can you explain what thedifference between that and a
Holocaust survivor is?
Sure, so.

I believe the definition has actually changed.
But growing up we never calledmy grandparents Holocaust
survivors.
They were always refugeesbecause they were able to escape
and get out and they were.
Neither my maternal grandmothernor my maternal grandfather
were in concentration camps.
So because of that, we werealways told and they referred to
themselves as refugees, it wasnever a survivor.

(34:04):
I believe that the definitionhas changed now.
To anyone that was a, a thatwas a victim of Nazi persecution
, which started in 1933.
So technically under this newerdefinition they would be
considered survivors.
But again, because they escaped, they were able to get out
before you know, going to a campthey were.

(34:27):
We call them refugees Gotcha.

That's what I thought.
I just wanted to confirm what Ithought without saying
something.

It's interesting.

You're right, it has changed, because I know
there's that movie that justcame out with Anthony Hopkins
about the man whose name I can'tremember I want to see that I
do too, but it's only showing atthe AMC in like the morning.
So I'm trying to coordinatewith a friend.
She has AMC pass and she islike a real job nine to five and
I was like, well, this is justnot convenient at all for anyone

(34:56):
but he saved a bunch ofchildren through the kidder
transport and they've beenreferring to those children as
survivors.
So I do feel you are verycorrect that the terms really
have changed because thosechildren obviously left before
they you know their familieswould have died in the camps,
but they themselves would nothave been in camps.

Interesting that is.
Yes, I think a lot ofdefinitions have changed, or the
way that we that I was taughtanyways, yeah.

How old were you when you learned about your
parent, your grandparents' story?

learned about your parent, your grandparents
story.
So I always knew mygrandparents were German, and
they spoke in German frequentlyaround my sister and I.
But I would say prettyspecifically, I was in sixth
grade and there was a contest awriting contest I think, in
Hebrew school and about maybe itwas like our family history,
and I probably came home with aslip of paper and my mom was
like, oh you could, you know,enter the contest.

(35:55):
And at that point, though, whatwas interesting is I really had
no concept of the magnitude ofthe story or really the history.
I hadn't really learnedanything at that point.
I mean, we had read Number ofthe Stars in fifth grade.

That was about it, yes, which I was just saying is
a perfect introduction to theHolocaust story, and I am
obsessed with the cover art onthat book as well.

Side note it's so beautiful it is and it has
in like the aging of it, it'sstill on point now.
However, many years later afterit was written, it's still so
applicable and relevant.
Yeah, so I do remember readingthat in public school and Hebrew
school simultaneously, likeliterally the same unit, same
time, but again, still didn'treally understand the magnitude

(36:36):
of everything and obviously myfamily history.
So my mom at the time called mygrandfather to get the facts of
his story and then kind of Ijust like hand wrote it and I
mean I definitely did not winthe contest or whatever was
happening with that, but thatwas really the first time that I
learned what his story was andwhere he was from and all of

(36:59):
that.
And then when he passed awaytwo years later, I was 14 and he
was a war veteran.
That's part of his story.
But I actually read the storyat like a local meeting for the
Jewish war veterans in my town,so that was kind of more my
awareness of it was, I would say, like like I was probably

(37:20):
around 11 or 12 when I firstlearned.

So I'd love to hear the story about each of
your grandparents individually,because I'm assuming that they
weren't married when, uh, maybethey were.

I'm assuming, because I'm assuming that they
weren't married when maybe theywere.
I'm assuming that's correct.

No, no, no, I'm just trying to think of, like
timing, what their life was likebefore the war you mentioned
your grandfather was a veteran,maybe during the war and then
after the war, and maybe howthey met as well.

Yes, sure.
So they were both German Jews,which I think you know
definitely connected as to howthey met after the war.
But so I'll start with mygrandmother, trudy.
And I was extremely close withboth of my grandparents growing
up.
So my grandmother Trudy wasborn in Würzburg, germany, and
she was from a very, you know,the family was very integrated

(38:08):
with society and her father, shehad a twin sister.
Her father was, I believe,worked in insurance and they
were well off.
You know, they had a very, verynice upbringing.
They were, you know, integratedwith non-Jews.
She was Orthodox, went to aJewish school and, you know,
really had a very good life,like that's the one thing I

(38:29):
remember.
She would always talk to me upuntil the end of her life about
Germany and her, you know,before the war and before, like
Hitler, came to power and howgood things were.
But she came from a prettyprominent family.
A lot of her relatives werejudges and lawyers and she, you
know, during the 1930s, then,after Hitler came to power,

(38:53):
things just progressivelystarted to get worse for the
Jews and slowly their, you know,rights and privileges were
taken away from them to thepoint where she, you know, they
were trying to get out.
But they were there duringKristallnacht, which is the 9th
of November, the night of brokenglass.
And when I did interview her,when I was in high school and

(39:17):
she describes it as being, youknow, young men came to the door
, took her father away, he wassent to a concentration camp for
multiple weeks, jailed then aconcentration camp, and she was
locked in a room with her twinsister and her mother and they
just were breaking everything inthe apartment, smashing glass
and, you know, when they cameout everything was destroyed and

(39:37):
they knew that they had to getout and fortunately they had
relatives who came to the UnitedStates.
So they, you know, had to giveup everything and again they
were fairly well off andprominent, so to give up
literally everything you have.
And then, you know, had tobecome a gardener and my

(40:16):
grandmother was around 16 whenshe came here.
She was a babysitter and ananny and, you know, just taking
whatever jobs that they couldbecause they just needed to
support themselves.
But one of my grandmother'srelatives actually was a very
well-known attorney in Munichand he's actually featured in a

(40:37):
lot of the history books becausehe—this was like pretty early
on in 1933 when Hitler came topower, he was—he had reported, I
believe, like through work as alawyer, that he wanted to file
a complaint.
So he went to a police station,like on behalf of a client he
was filing a complaint, and theyactually made him parade

(40:59):
through the streets with a signaround his neck and it was his
name was Michael Siegel, and sothat was my grandmother's direct
relative.
So they, you know, she had a lotof family that they kind of
scattered all throughout theglobe when they were trying to
get to wherever they could.
But yeah, so she, she had a lotof stories, you know, just in

(41:21):
terms of family members andpeople went to China and
Shanghai and South America andreally just wherever they they
could, they they tried to getsomeone to, to get them out.

I think a lot of people don't realize that, like
at the very very beginningbefore the Holocaust, they just
wanted the Jews out.
So they were giving people anoption to leave, but they had to
leave their businesses andtheir money.
They couldn't take anythingwith them.
So you know, and I feel likethis is something that I read in
a lot of books about survivorsand thankfully this wasn't the

(41:54):
case with your family but thereare a lot of people especially
want to immigrate to what wasthen called Palestine or to
America and they wanted to bringtheir parents, but their
parents were like I'm too old, Iam settled here, I can't start
over.
So they ended up staying andthen most of the people ended up
dying in concentration camps oryou know, in other horrible

(42:15):
ways.
But you know, I think that youknow, growing up I was always
like why didn't they know whatwas gonna happen?
Why didn't they leave?
And it's like because you knowand I learned later it was
because, even if you were ableto leave, it was completely
starting over.
You know, your greatgrandparents were probably
middle aged at this point.
That would have been verydifficult.

Exactly, and also my grandmother said that it
was very expensive, Like eventhough they had to give
everything up, they had to payall of this money to the German
government and then they had tohave these sponsors in America
or wherever you were going, toalso pay for them.
So, to have you know complete Iknow she had family members
that were able to like help withthem with visas, but I think
you also had to have someonevouch for you, essentially like

(42:54):
in the United States, so thosepeople also had to put up a
tremendous amount of money.
So to have you know, just likestrangers, putting up all of
this money for you.
Um, it was difficult.
It was way more when people arelike, well, why didn't they
just leave?

It was very it was very, very involved, yeah, very
, very involved.
And then, at one point, theystopped letting people leave.
And then, exactly, Exactly so.

Yeah, so that was my grandmother's story and
it's actually my grandfather'sstory that I'll share in schools
because his story is a bit moreinvolved.
So he was raised in um.
He was born in a smaller towncalled Osthofen, germany, which
is, like I've actually been to,where he is from.
So he's about, I guess, like anhour and a half or two hours or

(43:39):
so south of Frankfurt, but it'sa beautiful countryside,
whereas my grandmother was moreof the city, cosmopolitan
upbringing, cosmopolitanupbringing and there were
vineyards and farms and hisfather was a cattle farmer or
rancher and he died of naturalcauses.

(43:59):
But my grandfather had threebrothers and one sister, so it
was quite a big family.
But they were also veryintegrated, you know, had a lot
of in society, had a lot offriends and community that
appreciated them and respectedthem that were non-Jews and at,
I guess, after my grandfather'sfather.

(44:21):
So my great-grandfather passedaway, they moved into a slightly
bigger city nearby called Worms, which actually has a very
famous synagogue, the Rashisynagogue.
Yeah, so that's, that was likehis synagogue, you know, growing
up or when he was a bit olderand, again, you know, very
integrated in um, in the, in thecommunity, and he was a bit

(44:44):
older.
So he he was born in 1917.
So when Hitler came to power,you know he was already like
older, trying to figure out work, job.
You know what is he going to do?
So he was going to as anapprentice for hardware and he
was working for someone like alocal shop keeper as an
apprentice in hardware.

(45:05):
And he was also there onKristallnacht and we learned
that he had to go hide in a backroom and the store was
obviously destroyed.
And then he was also along withhis two brothers who were
around his age, arrested onKristallnacht.
And his sister was a bit older,married, settled and worked

(45:29):
actually for the local citygovernment.
So she was able to secure mygrandfather and two of his
brothers release at that time,with the promise that they would
kind of just leave as soon asthey could if they could, and
again through his sister'shusband.
So my grandfather'sbrother-in-law's family they
were able to send.

(45:49):
They had three visasessentially, but there were five
people at that point remaining,figuring his sister was kind of
taken care of because she wasmarried.
So it was my grandfather, andthen he had a much younger
brother who was, I think, likearound 12 years old or so at
that point, and so my greatgrandmother, my grandfather's

(46:10):
mother, had to decide okay, I'lllet my three older sons take
these visas, and with the hopethat maybe they could get to
safety and send back for them.
So after Kristallnacht it wasthen they were really trying to
essentially scramble and figureout next steps.
So my grandfather and two ofhis two brothers.

(46:31):
They went to Sweden for twoyears, actually almost two years
.
They worked on a farm inexchange for room and board, and
during that time mygreat-grandmother and my
grandfather's youngest brotherwere taken to a ghetto and then
ultimately taken to anextermination camp and killed
there.
They obviously didn't know whatwas happening at the time.

(46:53):
My grandfather slowly made hisway to the United States, where
his sister was then at thatpoint he took the Trans-Siberian
Railroad across Russia, thenwent to Japan, then Korea or
Korea, then Japan, and then tooka boat to the west coast of the
United States and then a bus toNew York, where he first

(47:15):
settled, and then eventually hewent to Connecticut, which was
where his sister was living.
He got a job in a factory andsomeone overheard him speaking
with a German accent, and atthis point the United States was
at war against the Germans inWorld War II and they reported
my grandfather as a spy.

(47:35):
So he had to go to WashingtonDC and meet with government
officials and then, in order totest whether he was really a spy
or not, their question waswould you fight for the United
States, figuring if he said no,then maybe he's a spy.
So he said yes you know, ofcourse I'm a refugee and

(47:57):
explained his story and he wentback home.
Eventually, I think a few weekslater I don't think it was that
long he received a draft letterin the mail and he was drafted
into the United States Armyfighting then for the United
States, sent back to Europe,ultimately Germany, and he ended
up being landing as part of thetroops on D-Day on the beaches

(48:24):
of Normandy.

This is an insane story.
I want to make a movie aboutyour grandfather.

Yeah, he was, I mean, a really remarkable man
and so humble and modest, youknow, to think of everything
that they had been through.
But yes, so traveling allthrough these major battles in
Europe during World War II andeventually coming back to the
United States too.
And eventually coming back tothe United States, and he met my
grandmother.
I think a friend actually triedto set up one of my
grandfather's brothers with mygrandmother, but my grandfather

(49:01):
ended up being available andoffering to meet my grandmother
at the bus when she was comingdown.
She had settled in Bostoninitially, so the bus from
Boston came to New York and mygrandfather met the bus to help
Trudy off.
The bus from Boston came to NewYork and my grandfather met the
bus to help Trudy off the bus,and the rest is history.

That's insane.
That is an insane story.
That is crazy.
Do you know which camp yourgreat grandmother and I guess
he'd be your great uncle weretaken to?

Yes, so yes, they were taken to Belzec, which
was just an extermination camp,Um.
So they were murdered prettyquickly after uh, very quickly,
I think after arriving there.

So those are crazy stories.
Um, so one of my favoritethings that one of my favorite
things to talk about, um, one ofthe things I'm interested in is
generational trauma in general.
You know, I think as Jewishpeople, we carry that.
I feel like, you know, I bringthis up, I think, a few times on
different shows where my momused to not say Hanukkah in

(50:03):
public and I would make fun ofher.
And now I get it because ofeverything that's going on right
now.
So even you know, my mother'sgreat grandmother came through
Ellis Island in 1920.
So you know they didn'texperience.
You know Hitler coming to powerin Europe in World War II, but
still carry that trauma.
I definitely am interested inthe generational trauma that the
descendants of Holocaustsurvivors carry.

(50:25):
Is this something that yourfamily dealt with, that maybe
other 3G NYers you know dealtwith?

Yeah.
So I would say my grandparentswere extremely positive people,
I mean really remarkable interms of their outlook on life,
and I am fortunate that I, youknow whatever trauma that they
held in with them because oftheir experiences.
They really tried very hard notto pass that on, if they could,

(50:56):
to my mother and you know mymother then to my generation.
So I think it's almost theopposite, like they really tried
to be so mindful of leadinggood lives that they, whatever
trauma that they held, it wasn'treally faced, it wasn't outward
facing.
But I do think, um, you knowone thing I am very aware, of

(51:19):
which I don't know if this isrelated, I, I, I think it could
be and I, since October 7th,I've actually thought more about
this.
I am, as you just mentioned,very aware of antisemitism and I
don't know if it's because Igrew up in a pretty mixed area
or what, but you know, even whenwe you travel, like I was
always taught, you know, don'twear a Star of David, like keep

(51:40):
it low key, you don't have to.
You know, talk about, you knowthis, and like just kind of meld
in.
And I think that comes from mygrandparents being immigrants
and you know it was verydifferent then than it is today.
It was like meld in, becomeAmerican, learn to speak English
, you know.
So, in terms of not that that'strauma, but I think it's more

(52:01):
just of like, how you kind oflive your life.
So you know, when October 7thhappened, a lot of friends of
mine were, you know, like aghastat the anti-Semitism that was
coming out, and I wasn't thatsurprised.
I mean, I don't know if it'sjust.
I think it's because I've seenit's always there, it's just

(52:21):
been underneath the surface andit's sad, but I think I'm just
very aware of that.
So I would say that's somethingthat I've definitely that's
been embedded in me in terms oflike, and again, it could be
because of my family history,but my mom always reminds me
that my grandfather always saidyou don't look back, you just

(52:42):
keep going forward.
So I think, in terms of tryingto rebuild and move on with
their lives, that's really theoutlook that they took.

I think you know, like I said, I'm not a
descendant of Holocaustsurvivors.
My great grandmother lived inRussia during World War I and
obviously would have livedthrough the pogroms and they
didn't talk about it Like to thepoint that we felt.
When my great aunt moved out ofour house we found a telegram
that they sent from Ellis Islandsaying they were detained and
needed money so we have, it's inmy bedroom.

It's framed.

It says detained Ellis Island send money.
So they didn't.
We didn't even know that.
So it was so much so that theywere like we're going to move on
.
They didn't mention, like ahuge thing, being detained when
you enter the country.
So I think a lot of people whosurvived some sort of traumatic
experience, especially when theywere young adults, cause I
think my great grandmother was16 when they came.

Yes, she said she was 16.

She lied about her age her whole life, so we don't
know for sure, that'sunbelievable.
Yeah, she's one of those oneswho picked a birthday at Ellis
Island because she didn't knowwhat her birthday was in the
English calendar.
But I think it's something thata lot of people, even immigrants
, today, will kind of justforget and try to move on and,
like you said, americanize.
And I feel like I'm theopposite of you, though I feel

(53:54):
like I was a little naive aboutthe amount of anti-Semitism you
know.
I tell I tell a story sometimesthat you know, between acting
gigs.
In my early 20s I was working ata, at a White House black
market clothing store, at a mallyeah, it was very fancy, and
one of the people who workedthere was a, was a woman who's

(54:15):
retired and was just kind oftrying to make a little money
and pass some time and she wasvery active with the ADL and I
asked her oh, what is that?
And she explained it to me andI said I remember thinking, well
, why do we need something likethat now, like this, doesn't?
This is not a problem?
In the same way, and throughoutthe course of time, I've
realized that, you know,organizations like that are very
important and I think I grew upa little sheltered, like I come

(54:37):
from an area of Los Angelesthat has a very prominent Jewish
community.
You know I feel like I've said,I don't think I met anyone who
wasn't Jewish, maybe until I waslike five.

So you know, just being Jewish was normal, you
know.

I it was and I've talked to people who are even
from other parts of SouthernCalifornia, like one of our
rabbis is from a non-Jewish areaand she talked I've had
conversations with her about theanti-Semitism that she dealt
with in high school and that'snot something I dealt with.
So I feel like a part of me istrying to atone for my ignorance

(55:11):
a little bit by educatingpeople.

No, of course.
I mean, look, I think a lot ofit is so dependent upon where
you grew up and who you cameinto contact with.
You know, even regardless ofyour family history, because I
think even a lot of 3Gs, ordescendants of survivors, they
grew up in very Jewish areas andmaybe you know on a lot of

(55:37):
different factors, but yeah, Idon't think it just you know
because of who my grandparentswere makes that any different.
I think it's just like that,combined with different things
and what they spoke aboutadditionally.

So you mentioned that you've been to Germany to
see where your grandfather isfrom.
Did you have you seen whereyour grandmother's from?
What was that experience like,were?
I mean, were there any, youknow, remnants of relatives
there?

So I went to Germany.
I've been twice the first timeand I'll I can give a small
shout out.
It's a program called GermanyClose-Up where American Jews are
subsidized through the Germangovernment to go to Germany.

It's an amazing trip.
Is there an age cap on thisprogram that I am interested in
now?
I?

actually don't think there is.

That's amazing.
What is this?

called.
It's called Germany Close-UpOkay, great.
And there's differentorganizations that it will be
affiliated with.
So I went with I think it waslike the Federation of
Pittsburgh on my trip.
So, like differentorganizations will kind of
connect.
So I went on that trip in 2015.

(56:47):
And originally I had heardabout it, but the itinerary also
went to my grandfather'shometown.
So I was like, oh, this isperfect.
So you spend a long amount oftime in Berlin, like about a
week, and then go to Frankfurtand then Heidelberg and Worms,
which is where my grandfatherwas from.
So during that trip we went tothe Rashi Synagogue and after

(57:08):
the Holocaust, the survivors ofWorms put together a big,
basically like commemoration andmemorial for the individuals
that were lost in theircommunity.
So I was able to see that thatyou know my grandfather had kind
of taken a part in helping formand you know my great

(57:30):
grandmother and my great unclewere on this wall in the
synagogue.
So that was really meaningful.
But in terms of because it wasa group trip, it wasn't, you
know, I saw the area and I sawthe town, but it wasn't that
detailed, you know.
But in terms of because it wasa group trip, it wasn't, you
know, I saw the area and I sawthe town, but it wasn't that
detailed, you know, in terms oflike, oh, this is where my
grandfather lived and this iswhere their house was, and that
kind of thing.
So it was really a fabulousexperience, though, and I found,

(57:51):
you know, the German peoplethat I encountered to be really
warm and welcoming, andespecially the younger
generations that were, as I'm, agrandchild of a survivor,
grandchildren of potentiallyNazis, so it was a really
powerful, interesting,eye-opening trip.
And then, in 2018, this is avery interesting story.

(58:15):
So my mom received a Facebookmessage from someone who lived
in California and asked are youRudy Herz's daughter?
And it turns out that thisindividual his name is Sandy
Jacoby, he lives out inCalifornia, he was going through
his father's belongings andfound a photo that had my

(58:36):
grandfather in it and his father, and they were both in army
uniforms, so after the war.
So my mom replies back yes, Iam.
And Sandy tells her thatthere's a book being written
about the Jews of thisparticular of the Rhineland,
which is the area in Germany,and that this photo was going to
be featured in this book andwould we want to come to?

(58:58):
I mean, they went back and fortha bit more.
But you know, would we beinterested in coming for this
weekend to Germany for a fewdays for this like book
reception?
So we said sure.
So that was actually the secondtime I went and it was, you
know, a very quick trip.
But we kind of explored thesurrounding towns near my
grandfather's and we went to thecemetery where his father, so

(59:21):
my great grandfather, was buried.
The headstone was still there,which was unbelievable.

That's amazing considering the history of
everything that happened toJewish cemeteries.

No, exactly Exactly so.
It was still there and thenthrough another organization, on
one of the days that we hadfree.
I mean, this is a reallyremarkable organization, this
group of all non-Jews, allnon-Jews in Worms and the
surrounding areas callthemselves I think it's the
committee, the 9th of NovemberCommittee and they've taken upon

(59:56):
themselves to research theJewish history in the town and
note all of the homes that usedto be Jews, and really, just
like the history of allallnachtand also throughout Germany,
well, throughout Europe, thereare what's called Stolpersteins,

(01:00:22):
which are like the.

Nicole Kelly (01:00:23):
They're translated to stumbling blocks.
Yeah, the stumbling blocks, thegold, which are not in Munich,
by the way.
They don't have them in Munichand that's a whole like thing.
Oh, I did not know that.
I've never been to.

Elizabeth Kamens (01:00:34):
Munich.
Yes, okay, that's veryinteresting, wow, I mean they
have them in other citiesthroughout Europe too, but I
mean it's mainly started inGermany from my understanding.
But so you know, this committeealso helps put these stones in
for where they learned that thefamilies had lived.
So for my great uncle and greatgrandmother they had stones

(01:00:54):
that were stepping stones thatwere placed and they were there
for the ceremony because therewas no direct descendants that
could be there.
So it's an amazing organization.
One of the individuals that'sinvolved, her name is Inga May.
So on one of the days that I wason this trip and I went with my
mother and sister, she took usaround the whole town for the

(01:01:18):
whole day, you know, showing us.
Well, now it's a bank, but thisis where your grandfather used
to live and this is the town andit's a walking tour.
And we met with otherindividuals of the of the um
organization who came out andhad lunch with us and even
though they couldn't even speakEnglish and we couldn't speak
German, it was a really.
It was a really amazingexperience to have these people

(01:01:40):
who, you know, might not haveany connection or might've had a
connection, who knows but justout of the goodness of their
hearts are involved in thisorganization to kind of restore
and remember the Jewishcommunities in these, in this
town.

It's really interesting to me, kind of
speaking of this generationaltrauma.
Like you know, when we were inGermany we had tour guides who
were about our age and them, youknow, thinking about their
grandparents.
You know, my one of my mom'sfather fought in Germany in
world war two and didn't talkabout what he saw.

Patrick Kelly (01:02:12):
So I don't know too many things it was apparent.

I mean, I don't know, it must have been pretty
traumatic, um, but uh, you know,thinking about their
grandparents fighting in the warand how they feel about that,
and then the guilt that you feel, but also, like, I remember
reading an article once about awoman who, um was very close
with her grandmother.
I think she was american, buther grandmother was a nazi like
she was a member of the naziparty and trying to kind of in

(01:02:38):
head work out this woman thatshe knew and grew up with, who
loved her and was caring andgiving but was also a Nazi.
So, you know it's kind of I.
You know it's so I again.
The idea of this generationaltrauma and the psychological
effects of everything thathappened in World War II is
super interesting to me and Iwish, I wish, there was more
research about this.

(01:02:58):
Yes, I know, yeah.
I can get another yet anotherbook I get to write um.

I've got all these ideas.

I've got all these ideas and not enough free time,
but but, you know, maybe thatthis organization is is kind of
an offshoot of that of peopletrying to, in their mind, right
the wrongs of maybe somethingthat their parents or
grandparents might have done umI think that's really lovely,
that they took you on that tourand you were able to see all of

(01:03:25):
that and that was still therebecause I know in certain parts
of europe like stuff's not thereanymore oh, absolutely,
absolutely, yeah, no, it was.

it was really great, um, so, you know, really
just a wonderful warm receptionfrom all of the all of the
non-Jewish Germans that we metalong the way.
It was really, it was honestlyvery remarkable and, um, we
still talk about the trip likefrequently, about how wonderful
of an experience it was.

Yeah, I think, with the exception of like one
person, everybody we met in thatone tour guide at Dachau who I
this guy was crazy.
Um, he he's like I don't knowif you're gonna use this, but we
took this tour of Dachau, justso you know.
We took this tour of Dachau andthis guide.
We were there for hours andthey really only focused on the
fact that it was a camp forpolitical prisoners and then,

(01:04:14):
like, jumped to the end of thewar and about an an hour into
the tour, patrick turned to meand he goes do you notice?
He hasn't said the wordHolocaust or Jew once.
And then I was like yeah, andthen like it was just like kind
of offensive, and I actuallyended up writing a letter to the
owner of the company, who cameup with some like well, this is
the history.
Then it's like, yeah, this ispart of the history and yes, it

(01:04:35):
was the first concentration camp, but it was for political
prisoners, but also like a bunchof Jews were murdered there as
well.

And that's also important to talk about.

But like here, you can tell your part of the story
, because I did.
This is yes.

No, so we were in a.
Rather I know you can't see me,sorry, we were in a rather
large group and the tour waskind of a mess to begin with.
We we were supposed to take abus out there.
A train, no, no, no.
We were supposed to take a busout there, but something

(01:05:05):
happened with the bus, so theyended up buying us all train
tickets.
Now, the irony of a lot of thisis not lost on me.
So we end up all getting shovedonto this commuter train, which
didn't have enough seats, andeverybody's standing in the
aisles Wow.
All crammed together trying togo out to Dachau.

(01:05:27):
Then they get us off of thetrain to shove into a public
transportation bus, you knowwhich.
Again, we are like a New Yorksubway car.
You know all kind of crammedtogether on this you know bus to
then drive to the gates of Daco.
Then the group that we're with,a lot of Americans and a lot of

(01:05:49):
Americans who are, you know,from the South and clearly not
Jewish, and clearly maybe don'tknow what the history of this
location actually is and whatactually happened at this
location.
So, as we were going through andthe guides giving the tour, a
woman keeps asking, kept askinghim.

(01:06:09):
Well, because he was saying hewould.
He was basically describingwell, this camp was only men and
they would bring people in andif you were a child you were
taken away, and that's reallyall that he would say about it.
And she kept asking well, whatdid they do with the kids after?
Well, they took them away.
Where did they go?
He's like well, if you wereunder 14, then you really were

(01:06:30):
taken away.
You weren't, you weren't.
You know this was a working camp, so people would work here, and
that you know they didn't needkids, so they, they would take
away.
And she just kept asking overand over and over again.
It was probably probably thefifth or sixth time she asked.
I finally just turned to herand went they killed them, they
just murdered the children, theyshot them, they took them in
the back and shot them.
That's that's what they didwith the kids.

(01:06:51):
And she was just kind of like,oh, but the guide was just too
afraid or didn't want to revealthat part of the history.
He just kind of was it felt likehe was almost covering it up or
almost trying to make allusionto it, without being blunt, you
know, by saying, oh well, theywould take them away or they

(01:07:12):
would never be seen again, orthey would do that, but not, not
in so many words.
That would be so forward thatpeople would you know, people
who don't know the history wouldunderstand.

Yeah, Wow, I mean, you can't rewrite the
history.
Yeah, it's the history.

Yeah, exactly so because of that I had this whole
conversation about like maybethis guy's grandparents were
Nazis.

Who knows, like if he lived there.

Like the whole thing, but it was and were Nazis
.
Who knows if he lived there thewhole thing.
And then he went on a tangentabout how at the end of the war
they were using children asguards and then the Americans
killed them when they came andI'm like am I supposed to feel
bad about this?
It's like a weird interestingthing.
But other than that guy,everyone else in Germany that we
came across was really lovely,and then when we got to Poland,

(01:07:59):
it was very interesting to seeabout how they talked about the
Germans and all of that, andthis was around the time that
they outlawed, saying Polishdeath camps.
I think that had just happenedwhen we went, so there was a lot
of feelings involving this.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sureI've never been to Poland.
Poland, first of all, like allthe Holocaust history aside, is

(01:08:20):
beautiful and it's very cheap.
And I recommend going to Polandall the time to people, and
especially maybe not right now,I don't know, but Krakow is
beautiful.
It's the only medieval townsquare that wasn't destroyed
during World War II.
I don't know, I think it's theonly one.
So there's this medievalmarketplace with the old stalls
and it's really beautiful andit's yeah.

(01:08:42):
I recommend Poland to everybody.
Not just because I want to endup taking tour groups there and
to the camps but, I loved Poland.
It was great.

Yeah, that's amazing.

Yes, so kind of going back on subject, if
someone is interested instarting to learn about the
Holocaust, what material wouldyou direct them to?
Maybe interviews or books, ormaybe even, you know, coming to
one of your lectures?
I think might be a good placeas well.

Yeah.
So I would say, depending uponwhere you live, I would
encourage you to go to a museum.
To start.

We have a really nice one downtown.

Yes, amazing, and I think it's excellent.
They do an excellent job ofsharing the Holocaust and the
history and what happened, and Iwas just there last year but
hadn't been in like decades, andyou know, the exhibits are new
and it's it's, it's really oneof the things.

(01:09:40):
Well, done?

I like that they do.
Is they talk about europeanjewelry before the war?
And I feel like a lot ofmuseums don't do that, not only
because I think is it moreemotionally effective to talk
about well, this is what it wasand this is what happened, but I
think it humanizes a little bityes, and they have some really
cool artifacts.
And then they also do the Jewsafter the war, which I think is
also really cool, and they havea good gift shop, and I love a

(01:10:04):
gift shop.

No, yes, and it's just.
It's a really beautiful space,you know, in terms of the museum
and the location and all ofthat.
So I would say, if you're inNew York, you know, definitely
take a trip to the Museum ofJewish Heritage in Battery Park.
And if you're not, you trip tothe Museum of Jewish Heritage in
Battery Park.
And if you're not, you know alot of these museum websites

(01:10:26):
have significant andcomprehensive history as well,
like the United States HolocaustMuseum in Washington DC is a
phenomenal resource and theyhave a lot as well.
But I think, you know, I thinkbooks are also a great place to
start, and it can be historicalfiction even, because, you know,
a lot of novels are based ontrue stories and you can learn a
lot from that as well.
So I think you know that'sanother really good place to

(01:10:47):
start.
And there's some recent TVseries even that have been made
from books, or just TV seriesthat I think are also really
good places to start.
Like there was the show or thelimited series last year about
Miep Gies and who a little light, who she hid the Frank family

(01:11:09):
in Amsterdam.
I mean I thought that was areally great.
I mean, you know, obviouslytragic but very good depiction
of like both sides and and uh,just the the whole experience
almost, and, um, I know therewas another book that I just
made into a- series.

They have a couple coming out.
The tattooist of Auschwitz iscoming out.
There's been some controversyabout that book and you can
Google that if you're curiousfriends I haven't read that.
Yeah, yeah, it's very like.
I guess people you know andthat's this is.
I want to say this to anybodylistening holocaust testimony is
very personalized andeverybody's experience was

(01:11:49):
different, so it's really hardfor people in my in my opinion,
it's really hard for me whenpeople are like, well, this was
not what happened, but this, ifthis is a true story or based on
a true story, this is whathappened to this person.
It'd be like me saying, well,what happened to your
grandfather isn't what happenedto refugees.
So I feel like that was thekind of the controversy

(01:12:09):
involving the tattooist ofAuschwitz, because I guess this
specific prisoner lived inbetter conditions and there were
some weird things.
There's also one that just cameout this week called we Were the
Lucky Ones, which is about afamily of survivors, so there's
a lot of.
And then there's that movieabout with Anthony Hopkins that
guy.
So there's a lot of stuffcoming out, which is good.

(01:12:30):
I feel like there's never, theHolocaust makes great media, so
I feel like there's never a lackof that coming out, it's true.

It's true, it's true, and I did read that
book.
We Were the Lucky One, so itwas an excellent book.
So I'm sure I mean the serieswill probably be good.
But I mean I think all of thatpeople can learn from and, you
know, take something away from.
So it depends, if you reallywant to go into how deep you
want to dig in terms of thefacts.
But you know, obviously,obviously I didn't see
Schindler's List until I was anadult, but you know, much more

(01:13:05):
recently even.
But I think that is you know,if you really want to learn what
happened, I think that is avery powerful depiction which my
sister has not seen.

Still, if you're listening, I keep saying every
time she's here or I'm home, weshould watch it.
And she's like I need to be ina very specific mood and I'm
like I don't know if you're everin a mood to watch Schindler's
List, like I don't think youwake up one day and you're like
you know what I'm going to dotoday.

This.
You know what I mean, exactly,exactly, and actually I saw it.
It was an anniversary showingat the Beacon Theater in New
York, where they had the cast,including Steven Spielberg, come
and speak, and I figured youknow what.
I haven't seen it.
So this is a good opportunitybecause it's you know, you're
not watching it at home like onthe couch, you're watching it in

(01:13:45):
a huge theater with, you know,hundreds of people, thousands of
people.
So that was when I saw it.
That's a very good.

first watching of Schindler's List story.
Mine was not that exciting.
I think I was like by myself atmy parents' house and I was
like well, I think I'minterested in watching this
right now and then I washorrified by myself, which you
know, I think, when it comes tocertain things like that, like
maybe you don't want a communalexperience, it's like it's
different.
Um, yes it's.

That's true.
That's a really good point, andit just depends on what you're
looking for and and what you'retrying to learn.

Yeah, so let's talk about you for a second.
You have a very interesting job, I think, so how did you?
What made you decide to becomea lawyer, and how did you end up
at your current position?
You would obviously share whatyou do, sure.

So, yes, I'm a lawyer and I work as an
assistant district attorney atthe Bronx District Attorney's
Office in the Homicide Bureau.
So I, you know just, I think alot of my strengths played into
going into law school, likebeing good at speaking and
reading and writing, and reallyyou know a lot of strengths,

(01:14:58):
help, you know, going into lawschool and becoming a lawyer.
But I think at the time I felt,you know, I was encouraged, I
should say, as that is a goodpath for me and for what my
background and interests were,and I was always a good student.
So when I got to law schoolthough I really had no idea what
type of lawyer I wanted to beand I think you know I did the

(01:15:22):
idea of helping people with thelaw was always there.
And I, you know, obviously it'snice to, you know, go into
corporate law and you knowyou're always like helping
someone in some capacity.
But I think in the back of mymind, in the very beginning of
law school, they had us write onnote cards like what do you
want to do when you graduate?
And like what do you think youwant to do in terms of like, how
you want to use the law and Iactually wrote on the card like

(01:15:43):
help people in some way.

So I think that was.
That's rare for a lawyer.
I feel like a lot of peoplewould be like make a lot of
money.
Exactly, exactly.

So I mean, obviously that is important and
nice and you know you need tolive.
But then I still wasn't reallysure and I realized, you know,
litigation would probably be agood fit because, again, I
really liked public speaking andI didn't get nervous when I was
up speaking in front of people.
But then a lot of my classes Ifound to be very challenging.

(01:16:14):
Oddly, except for criminal lawand for whatever reason, those
were the classes it just clickedand I realized, oh, I could be
an assistant district attorneyand like really help people in
terms of being giving them avoice, bringing justice, and it
just kind of aligned with, like,a lot of the values I had.
In addition, I, you know, hadan internship in at the

(01:16:35):
Philadelphia district attorney'soffice and I was like this is
exactly what I want to do, likeI don't see anything else that I
really see myself doing whichis very specific, and so then I
really just pursued getting ajob at a district attorney's
office when I graduated.

That's crazy.
I couldn't deal with your job.
I feel like I I'm sure, like Iwas saying I think you've
probably seen some insane thingsand dealt with all that.
Is it really like super highpressure, like I've?

Yes, no, it is .
I mean it also is very, it's,it's intense.
You know there's really not asyou saw before.
You know I'm always gettingcalls and messages and you're
kind of never really off, butalso you're always thinking
about things like what have Iforgotten?
What do I need to do?
What's the next step?
So you know, I think a lot oflaw and being an attorney is

(01:17:27):
high pressure, but I think it'salso like people's lives.
You know it's.
People are in jail.
There are victims of crimes youknow now I'm dealing with
homicides so sadly the victimsare no, can't have no voice to
speak for themselves.
But you know, before I'd havevictims of attempted murders and
shootings and slashings andyou're like, well, you know
these are such tragic situationsand a lot of them are also

(01:17:50):
immigrants and I think you know,coming from like the background
with my grandparents, Iobviously can't relate I was
born in America but I feel fortheir experiences and they don't
know how to navigate the systemand it's so hard and
overwhelming and maybe they'reinjured and they can't work
anymore and like and that's.
You know I don't deal with alot of like helping them with

(01:18:10):
resources, but I feel like Italked to them enough.
I knew I just I have like suchempathy and sympathy for what
they're going through, because alot of the time they don't take
it upon themselves.
You know, it's like wrong place, wrong time, um.
So yes, it can be, it candefinitely be stressful, but you
know, look, every job has somemeasure of stress.

Some more than others.
So this last portion of my showwe like to call this my version
of the actor's studio, if youever watch that.
These are just kind of shortform questions and they're a
little fun because sometimes wehave serious discussions like we
did.
So I like to end on a lighternote.
So what is your favoriteYiddish word?

I feel like I say oy, vey the most.
I mean it's just soall-encompassing.
What other word in the Englishlanguage can encapsulate oy, oy,
vey?
But I also think there's someother words that are really
powerful all-encompassing thatwe just don't have similar words
for.
Like chutzpah, that's a greatone.

(01:19:17):
Love that Mench, you know againlike just a really good, noble
person, tying it back to 3GNY.
We always say like we're such amenchy organization in terms of
the type of person that'sinvolved.
And yeah, I think those aresome of my favorite ones.

What is your favorite Jewish holiday?

Rosh Hashanah, and I would say, because it's
the start of the new year, it'sa fresh start.

So I know we talked about not being into
themed bat mitzvahs, but if youwere to have, let's say, we have
someone gives you a big budgetto throw a big blowout for your,
your, your re-bat mitzvah, your, you know, um, what would your
theme be?

Oh gosh that's a good question.
I would say, let's go with icecream flavors.
That's not what I've gotten.
I mean, I love ice cream too.

There is something .
Well, I guess my sister doesn'tlike ice cream because milk
makes her stomach upset.

But most people.

I think like ice cream.
What profession other than yourown would you want to attempt?

I've always been interested in journalism
and I think I studied it a bitin college and I think it's in
some ways similar to what I doright now.

If heaven is real and God is there to welcome you,
what would you like to hearthem say?

Oh, wow.
I would say first of all Iwould like to see the relatives
that I've lost and be reunitedwith them, and I think that
would be enough.
But I also, you know, so manypeople say, how could there be a
God if so many bad thingshappen Tying it back to our
whole conversation how couldthere be a God if the Holocaust

(01:21:07):
happened and six million Jewswere murdered?
I think you have to say youknow, god created man.
There is good and there is evil, and things happen because evil
overrides good.
And I think sometimes we justdon't know why bad things happen
.
But we just have to have faiththat things will work out.

(01:21:29):
And if I were to meet God, Iwould like him to affirm that
Awesome, all right.

Well, thank you so much for joining me.
This has been She brew in theCity and I am Nicole Kelly.
Thank you so much.
I hope you enjoyed that episode.
Since I interviewed Elizabeth,we have some updated statistics
about 3GNY.
She told me that for the2023-2024 school year, they did

(01:21:58):
131 virtual presentations and135 in-person presentations in
school.
They've reached 1,376 studentsat a mix of public and private
schools and currently have 6,200people on their mailing list or
affiliated as members.
If you're interested inbecoming a member of 3GNY, be
sure to check out their websiteand sign up for their events.

(01:22:19):
Thank you to everyone whoparticipated in the Instagram
giveaway this past week.
Please be sure to follow me onInstagram for future giveaways,
as well as fun pictures andvideos.
I'm going to be doing a lotmore videos now that I'm not a
full-time student and I have alittle more time.
Please be sure to follow me onTikTok as well, and you can also
DM me if you have any questions, suggestions or want to be a

(01:22:40):
guest yourself.
Thank you so much for listening.

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"Family Tree" - An Interview with 3GNY President Elizabeth Kamens

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}"Family Tree" - An Interview with 3GNY President Elizabeth Kamens