"I Found Love" - An Interview with Cantor Stefano Iacono - Shebrew in the City

Episode Transcript
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Stefano Iacono (01:00):
I'm your beauty, your my beast.
Welcome to the Middle East.

Hi, this is Shebrew in the City.
I'm Nicole Kelly, and today Iam talking to Cantor Stefano
Iacono.
How are you doing this lovelymorning?

I'm doing well.
This is, if something isusually after your bedtime, what
is it when it is before yourwake up time?

I don't know.
We should come up with a wordfor that but, I, feel like
that's most of the day for me.

Can you make sure not to tell the US senior
clergy that I said that though?

I know Rabbi Ben was already in his office when
we got here and he was inWashington DC yesterday and then
the night before he had a.
He's crazy, I don't.
I need, I need whatever he isvitamins he is taking.
So I'm really excited to talkto you.
When we were kind of pitchingthe idea of the podcast, you
were actually one of the firstpeople I thought of as a guest,
because you have such aninteresting and beautiful and

(02:35):
unique story that I think a lotof people would be interested in
hearing about or possiblyrelate to.
So, kind of jumping in inregards to your relationship
with music, you play the guitarand you have an amazing voice.
When did you first becomeinterested in music?
Was it something that you'rewas kind of cultivated within
your house?
Is it something that you werethe first person in your family

(02:57):
to be interested in that?
How did that come about?

So I didn't grow up with other musicians in the
family, but I have been annoyingthem with my own music since.
I think I was like two and ahalf Michael Jackson's black or
white on MTV was my jam and Iwould go around the house making
up words to it and from there,you know, I just I never really
stopped singing and I startedwriting music in elementary

(03:23):
school and realized that Iwanted to be able to accompany
myself, started playing pianoand in my first example of
vanity that I look back on andnow laugh was that I hated not
being able to take the pianowith me.
Oh, I was jealous of my friendswho could sit down with a
guitar and just sort of you know, pick up and play anywhere they

(03:44):
went.
And so, out of spite, I learnedhow to play guitar and it
became my primary love.
I just never put it down.
I feel most comfortable.
It's an extension of my body.
You know, I breathe with myguitar and I sit at home and I
write with my guitar.
And it's funny, I don't I don'talways listen to music, but I'm

(04:06):
always making music.
It just it comes out of me andso I needed to channel it into
something and the circuitouspath that led me to the canter
it.
I'm very grateful for itbecause this is the culmination
of all the things I love.

It's amazing you found a job that kind of, like
you said, has all differentaspects of all the things that
you really love and feelconnected to.
When did you start playing theguitar?

So I was in high school, okay, and I just, you
know, was very frustrated thatmy friends could do their thing
and I wanted to join the party.
So I picked it up and you know,within a couple of years, was
picking up gigs at coffee shops,playing covers and sharing
overly personal emotional musicLike imagine bad dashboard,

(04:52):
confessional like, but without abackup band.
So we're talking tragic, justcomically bad over sharing.
But it grew from there and Iwould play bars and restaurants
and invariably, by like hour twoand a half, someone who did not
get the message that I'mplaying jewel and Alana
Smoresette songs would startscreaming for free bird.

(05:15):
I'm like sir I just think I'mnot taking requests.
Right and I'm like read theroom Like that's.
That's not what's coming out ofme today, but needless to say,
it was something I enjoyed doingand it was not the right fit.
I wasn't able to bring theaudiences of Central Texas what

(05:36):
they wanted.

I surprised they weren't requesting Christian
rock music or we went.
We went to a wedding and inTexas it's the only time I've
ever been to Texas and we werewaiting for the wedding to start
and there was definitely likeChristian rock and I was like
this only makes me slightlyuncomfortable Positive,
encouraging, and what was ironicis the groom was Jewish, so oh

(06:00):
yeah.
I was like there's.
This is a very interestingpresentation of music,
considering that one of thepeople who's getting married is
not is not Christian.

Oh, for sure, and you know that's one of the
interesting things of Texas.
You'll find out that some oflike the startup bands that then
get famous like six pence, nonethe richer, you know, kiss me.
Yeah, oh, I am a millennial.

Yes, it's like from she's all that that was a
very important moment for allmillennial girls was her coming
down the stairs with that songand they are surprised.

A Christian rock band.

They are not.
Yes, that's so crazy.
Yes.

Lifehouse.
Dare you to move?
You know that that that piece,same thing there.

I know that the Christian rock movement is a
very lucrative movement and Iwas looking at the Grammy
nominations this past week andthere's lots of different
categories within Christianmusic.
I know there's a huge movementwe need to make, we need to get
is there a Jewish music Grammycategory?
And if not, we need to get ontop of that.

I think we fall in world.

World because we, because we are all over the
world.

I'm going to, I'm going to let that be the
frame.

Okay, I know I was going to go somewhere else with
that, but I was like I'm notgoing to be repeating
anti-Semitic tropes on mypodcast.
Um, okay, so Grammy nominationcommittee, let's get on the
Jewish music, though.
I feel like Debbie Friedmanprobably would have won every
year.
Always While she was alive.
Um, so you said you also playedpiano.
Do you still?

(07:29):
Do you have like a keyboard inyour house?
I you know, I see one in youroffice, so you still actively
play piano.

Yes, and I am embarrassingly as a bad of a
student now as I was in fifthgrade.
Um, I just don't practiceenough.

Everyone who plays piano other than literally
professional musical directorsand pianists says that, and I
was.
Someone tried to teach me toplay piano and I was like this
is not my journey.
But you know, I feel like everyadult I talk to is like I need
to practice more.

Yes, it's like there are too many options.
What 81 is that?
Is that the number of choices?
Like guitar has six strings,leave me alone.

Like that's a little bit more simple.
That's enough choices for me.
Do you play any otherinstruments or have interest in
learning any other instruments?

I have always wanted to play flute, I've
always wanted to play ukulele, Iwanted to play French horn and
I was like oh cool, each ofthese is a completely different
modality.
Let me, let me devote anothercorner of my life.
Yeah, it becomes a whole thing.

The ukulele is similar enough to the guitar.
I think that would be easy topick up and it's very portable.
So you know, you can literallytake it with you everywhere,
which is nice about the ukuleleand there's not so different
types of ukuleles.
Patrick plays the ukulele andin our old apartment we had a
little more wall space.
They were all displayed on thewall Like it was a music store,

(08:45):
yes, like we literally had theindustrial like hangers that
they have at like a tar center,and I'm hoping someday we'll
have an apartment again where wecan hang them because it was
really cool.
So you also write songs.
Who talked about starting to dothat?
You know, when did you learn toread and write music and what
were some of your early songsabout?
If you started so young, I wantto know.

(09:07):
You know, were they about thestrife that you were going
through as an elementary schoolkid?
Or you know I wrote pop songs?

You wrote pop songs as an elementary school
kid.
Yeah, you know, I loved popmusic.

Well were some of your favorite pop artists other
than Michael Jackson, like yousaid.

Yeah, for sure.
Mid to late nineties, I was allabout the Spice Girls.
I loved the idea that theywrote their own five part
harmonies.

I was fascinated With the posh spice at the
bottom she sounds like a bass ifyou listen to the music.
She literally sounds like abass.

Oh God, love her .
We love, we love, we love, welove posh.
But you know, that was reallythe format that I learned to
write in.
Otherwise, I was listening towhatever my parents were
listening to, the cranberriescounting crows, and so I learned
song structure from like adultalternative.
But then I translated itthrough, you know, Britney

(10:05):
Spears, Spice Girls, BackstreetBoys, finding out, you know
here's the right number ofverses into a chorus, into a
bridge, a refrain, and thengoing there, and it was always
love songs, a topic that noeight year old knows anything
about.

There's some adults that don't know anything
about it, so I think you're finethere.

But you know just things like heartbreak.
I loved writing aboutheartbreak.
It makes no sense but in a wayit's one of the most universal
concepts in songs Most songs areabout love of something,
usually a person, sometimes youknow food or something like that

(10:47):
.

But I feel like I've had moments of revelation
where I'm like, oh, most songsare about relationships, because
everybody for the most part,has relationships and it is a
universal thing people canunderstand.
I feel like we would have beenfriends when we were in
elementary school because welistened to the same music and I
was also like overly serious.
I feel like I was in such ahurry to grow up because I
wanted to be taken seriously andshocking, I'm still not taken

(11:10):
seriously.
So it's the sad truth of metrying to grow up.
So I feel like I need to be apart of my daughter.
It's like no one's going totake you seriously.
Just have some fun being a kid,because I was like I'm reading
adult books and I'm watchingadult movies and I want to be.
You know, I want to be an adult.
I was in such a rush and now Ihave to pay taxes and you know,
worry about things like that.

(11:31):
We just got the email for a CPA.
Being like this is how muchmoney you owe to the government,
and I'm like government, Idon't want to give you my money.

It felt like it could be eight again and writing
love songs.

Listening to the Spice Girls.
You know, did you like theSpice Girls movie?
What are your thoughts on themovie?
My sister still talks about itfrequently, like at least every
month or so.
It kind of comes up inconversation.

So I think I can say objectively that it was
cinema perfection and I think itwill stand the test of time.
That feels like an objectivestatement to me.

You know, for a certain age group of people, I
think that's true.
Maybe for my parents not so much, but definitely for the
millennia, especially thegeriatric millennials, which is
a term I love because you know,I remember before the internet
and when people got newspapersdelivered, but I also now have a
smartphone.
So I feel like, for thegeriatric millennial, spice
World was a very formative film.

(12:26):
Alan Cumming is fantastic in itand there's smart jokes and you
know it's about girl power,which I think, if I'm being
honest, spice Girls wereprobably the first time I was
introduced to feminism.
I mean, you can make fun of allthat, but it was about feminism
and I think it introduced thatto a lot of young women and men

(12:47):
and I think that's superimportant.
So it is a classic film and itshould obviously be put in the
Library of Congress as animportant to.
I don't know well, they're notAmerican, but what is it to get
from the Library of Congress?
It has to be important toAmerican culture in some way,
but if we could make that happen, I think it's important to
preserve that history and I'monly like 5% joking.

I'm happy to submit all of the videos of me
being a perfect sporty spice toshow the impact it had on
American culture, like you know,just really.
And you know, the thing is theywere smart, they were, they
were smart and I don't know ifwe realize that today.

I distinctly remember like they used to sell
Spice Girls candy, Like theywere.
They were smart and they werealso making money for me.
So you know, I don't, I can'treally think of another music
group that sold candy with theirfaces on it.

So Lady Gaga got her Oreos.

Yes, oh yes, she's also smart and also a queer
icon because I feel like theSpice Girls are, and maybe we're
like.
I'm not queer so I can't speakto this, but maybe like early
icons for young queer people andbeing like I love their
fabulousness.
Oh yeah, and they were prettyfabulous.
Because they were, they werepretty fabulous.
So, speaking of being smart andqueer in music, you talked
about playing coffee houses andrestaurants in Texas.

(14:05):
Did you ever think of moving toa place like Nashville or Los
Angeles and just pursuingsinging and songwriting as your
main career?

Oh yeah, there was a plan for the whole family
to uproot and move to Seattlefor a while.

Oh, my goodness, seattle, which I found out like
last year, was the seat of a lotof bands in the 90s.

I clearly was not paying attention to that,
because I only found that outand I you know part of me may
have been chasing that feel.
I wanted to be in a grungyspace and then do my twist.
I had kind of a folksy twang tomy voice but I modeled

(14:43):
everything I did after AlanisMorissette's jagged little pill.

Yes, Did you see the musical?
No, I did not.
Very serious for me, even for amusical.
I didn't see it, but I know theplot and I was like I don't
know if I I want to see the 90sangst.
Yeah, that's what we need rightnow.

I can't imagine it translating and I can't
imagine it being watchable todayLike it's, just because it's
not even cynical.
Well, it was happening.

It came out like like technically qualified for
the Tonys after COVID andPatrick was like that's what we
need right now in this postcodeworld is 90s angst.

Right, it's like no, we've got Olivia Rodrigo,
she's bringing the updatedversion of it, but like there's
definitely a space for, or Ialso really enjoy the Lance
Marsot music as a child.

There's definitely a space for an eight year old
to be belting.
You want to know?
Yeah, but as I did, I mean yes.
Again, I feel like we wouldhave been friends.
We should like go back in timeand become pen pals.

Maybe our parents can have the same
conversations with us togetherabout why we shouldn't sing that
in the grocery store.

I just think we remember I had a babysitter for
part of elementary school and Iwas belting, unbreak my heart in
the car and she was likelaughing and I was like I don't
understand why.
This is funny because I tooksinging very seriously in the
car and I still do.
So I hope my daughter, who alsois already at like two and a

(16:06):
half, like trying to belt andsing like Julie Andrews, that
she will sing inappropriatemusic because I feel like it is
a is a rite of passage.
So, going back to what we wereactually talking about, so you
were planning on moving toSeattle.
Why did that?
Why didn't that end uphappening?

Well, to be honest, I started to get a
little good at music, okay, andrealized that I was hating it.
I loved performing and sharingand getting very emotional and
being deep in my feelings andthen creating something that was

(16:43):
supposed to be beautiful.
But I didn't want to do it forstrangers every day anymore and
it just.
I wanted something a littlemore reciprocal.
I didn't want an audience, Iwanted I don't know a community
yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
It can be a little isolatingbeing a performer because it's
like the other, and then theyleave and then you never see
them again and there's no youknow.
Unless you know, you somehowhave some sort of like stage or
experience.
There's no communication aboutthe experience.
Everything can also be reallygreat because of that, because

(17:17):
sometimes you want to just do itand then leave, but like, but,
if you want, if your whole MO isto connect to people, that it
can be very isolating,especially because not all
audiences are respectful.
So for sure.
I can definitely imagine thatbeing the case if you're working
in restaurants and bars andpeople are, you know, not paying
attention or being obnoxious.
That would be frustrating.

And it really hurt me in the beginning.
But even that you know you kindof get over it.
But then you realize there'sthere's only so far that
creating something, that spacecan go when it's just you, and
it's just not what I wanted topour my energy into Like to have
a collaborative communityexperience.

Yeah.

And it takes so long to come down from a
performance.
You know, once you're really init, like there's, there's no
chance you're going to bed yeah.

I feel like that's why I still keep actor hours,
because after shows we would goout to like TGI Fridays and I
get home at like 4am and I'venever really left that.
But that's a problem because mydaughter has to be at school at
8.45.

Exactly so.

I usually just like throw on clothes and look
like a troll and I'm like, youknow, trying to get her hair
done, and I'm like, okay, we'redoing this, but then I'm now
awake so I can't go back tosleep.
Yeah.

Look, I'm a worrier, and so I had to have a
very frank conversation withmyself one day.
I was like, okay, what if youdid achieve your goal?
What if one day you are touringall over the world and you have
a band who backs you up, andyou have management and this and
this, and that you're going toreally sleep in a different
place every day.
Hopefully, you sleep and you'regoing to get up and you're

(18:48):
going to do your press tours andyou're going to do your thing
and you're never going to doanything else and you're going
to have to always be in topnotch condition for a
performance that's not doing itfor you anymore.
Yeah, it can be.

I mean, there is something I think some people
you know I don't know why, I'mthinking of Taylor Swift, but
like there's a high you can getfrom performance oh, absolutely,
and I think a lot of peoplechase that high but it can be
very isolating, it can beexhausting.
I don't know when this is goingto air, but I was just at the
DC March for Israel and againstanti-Semitism and I had to leave
at six am and got back at 11.
And that's, you know, like atouring day, and I didn't even

(19:26):
give a show.
I totally get where you'recoming from.
So, speaking of writing songs,I absolutely love the story
about how you told your husbandyou loved him, because it's very
creative, and I would love ifhe would share that story with
us.
Absolutely so well, how did youmeet your husband?

So we met in Texas on gaycom way back when it
was a city chat room based.
Oh we're in a chat room.
Oh yeah, and this is beforeapps.
This is like in the dawning ofonline dating.
This is 2010.
And so we ended up havingconversations, like I said, as

(20:09):
big chat rooms.
So everyone in town is in thischat room and you're talking
about all sorts of things, and Iwas a bit of a know-it-all, and
so was he, and I had apretentious streak, you know,
trying to, you know, make a namefor myself in the world.
I can say it was cute now, butit was insufferable then.

(20:29):
And out of the blue, he sent mea message and said hey, do you
want to meet at this bar?
And you know I had just turned21.
He wasn't even 21 yet.
So we're sitting on the picnictable outside this historic
space that was once a Jewishcommunity center and is now like
a three-story queer bar In.

Texas yeah, in Texas he's got this big exes.
It sounds like a setup to ajoke.

I know Every part of it.
Every part of it sounds socrazy.

I know that they were like former JCC.

Obviously, this needs to be a gay bar, of course
, and so it's got these, likeyou know, the stars of David on
the cornices everywhere and it'sbeautiful and people are just
like getting down to the latest.

you know, I can see people dancing to Kylie
Minogue, like you know that'sthe vibe If this place still
exists, because if it does, Ifeel like I need to make a trip
specifically to go there.

The Bonham Exchange, yes, and John Bonham,
and Houston, in San Antonio, Ibelieve.
And it is still there, it'sstill thriving.
I will be looking this up andmaybe making a journey to Texas
just to take some Instagramphotos and be like, yes, the
best part is that, you know, wewere sitting outside of this

(21:44):
space and just happened to behaving the most serious
conversation and we talked aboutliterature.
You know, we went from like Iknow why the caged bird sings to
what were the foundationaltexts that you read at way too
young of an age, thattraumatized you and you know.
And then it turns to Judaismand so it just.
It was a shocking firstconversation with someone who I

(22:07):
admittedly had not impressedonline Because you know, we
butted heads.
Like I said, I was a know-it-all, I was always on a soapbox, I
was very, very politicallyactive in those days and
convinced that people justweren't doing enough.
And just it worked.
We just spoke from the heartand I calmed down for a second.

(22:32):
It must have been the only calmcouple of hours of my life and
I just remember thinking thisfeels like a really bad movie,
like what are the odds that wewould be sitting outside of this
bar and, you know, come out toeach other as people who are
interested in converting toJudaism?
Like it still just sounds fake.

One could say possible, but shared.

Yeah, I mean, that's how I see it now.
Yeah, but obviously in themoment I was just like did you
read something?
Did you know that about me?
Like why did that come up Liketoday?
I would have definitely beensuspicious that someone had been
on my social media and was liketrying to gaslight me or
something.

This was before you could stock somebody online.
Oh yeah, we had MySpace andMySpace only, and MySpace was
like a place for showcasing yourfavorite song or you know kind
of pitting your friends againsteach other about who you liked
the most.

Oh yeah, I think Facebook had like just started
being a thing and it was justfor college students.
Oh yeah.

Yes, I remember this, and I went to a performing
arts college, so I couldn't geta Facebook because we didn't
have college emails, and thatwas kind of the prerequisite for
that.
So you meet your husband andyou fall hard.
And how do you tell him thatyou love him?

About two months in I realized the feelings were
just intense and when I canmake up my mind, it's very
definite and I wrote this songcalled I Found Love, and it came
from one night when we wereasleep.

(24:17):
I made sure he was asleep and Isaid I love you, but I was
studying Hebrew at the time andI was still afraid that even if
he was awake he'd hear me andknow what I was saying, and so I
said I need to have it and itwas my favorite moment of my
life so far and I decided to putthat in a song, and so I sing

(24:40):
this like dramatic I found love,la la, la, la la song, and the
very last line is that I droppedthat.
I whispered this in your ear asyou were sleeping and instead
of calling him and saying hey, Ilove you, or dropping that on a

(25:01):
date or something, I sent himan MP3 of the demo.
I emailed it to him.
Yeah, I didn't even say anythingabout it.
And then what was it?
Three minutes and 48 seconds orsomething later he called me
and I did not pick up.

(25:30):
I told a secret while you weresleeping and when you woke I
just couldn't find the words.
But I told you pillow sosweetly, and nobody, nobody was

(25:58):
hurt.
But way, yeah, yeah, where dowe go from here?
Is there a place for us to hide?
Cause I found love hiding oncover, hiding on smother, hiding

(26:31):
from truth.
Yes, I found love hiding oncover, hiding on smother.
I was hiding from you.
I wanna hold you tighter andthe wind is holding me now and

(27:10):
faith is the only peace that weneed anyhow.
But way, yeah, yeah, where dowe go from here?

(27:34):
Is there a place for us inside?
Cause I found love hiding oncover, hiding on smother, hiding

(27:57):
from truth.
Yes, I found love hiding oncover, hiding on smother.
I was hiding from you.
And way, yeah, yeah, where dowe go from here?

(28:25):
Is there any turning back?
I knew you'd have a thought.
I said Well, did you hear that?

(28:45):
Well, I said I love you.
Oh, and now?

I do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah , yes.
Very much that, and to this dayhe makes fun of me for it, and
it's the best thing to be teasedover, because I was just like
you know, this is the truth andI want you to know.
But also, oh God, what if hedoesn't feel this way?
You know what if this is toomuch and I lose it all?

(29:53):
But it was gonna be worth it.
I had to let him know and then,you know, the second time he
called, when I did answer, hesaid I love you too, and I was
like, oh okay, what now?

Yeah, like who said this was the next step.
And this was before gaymarriage was legal, obviously.
So it would have been like,okay, do we, you know?

I mean, this was before people had boyfriends on
TV in prime time and it wasstill just not very accepted by
2010,.
You know, we're like don't ask,don't tell was still in play.
Yeah, when we were dating andthat was just the culture you
tried not to stick out andanytime you had pride, people

(30:40):
would be angry about it.
Because what are you going onabout?
What are you trying to shove inpeople's face and show that
you're different than?
And you're different is good,and so then, if your difference
is a good thing, are you sayingyou're better than others?

It was nonsense but yeah, I lived in hell of a
new one.
Prop 8 was a huge thing and itwas just kind of scary.
How, for no reason, people, Idon't know maybe this is because
I'm Jewish and you know I'm nota terrible person I don't think
what other people do affects mein that way, so I don't have
never really understood that.

People didn't want to see the institution
change.
People didn't want to have tothink, because?

marriage is such, you know, I know, with the high
divorce rate and people cheatingand and I love to joke.

I mean I even let our kids know please don't
let anyone ever tell you thatyou should have a biblical
marriage.
Read the text.
That is just not how we getmarried.

Yeah, it's men sleeping with their wives'
servants to have children, and,yeah, it's not a good basis for
that.
So, speaking of the Bible, canyou tell me where you are
originally from I know you saidyou're from Texas and what your
religious upbringing was like?

I'm from San Antonio, texas, which, I love to
remind people, is the sixthlargest city in the country.
It is an amazing place.
I love, love, love my hometown.
If we could put it in Brooklyn,I would still live there and I,
because it was such a big townit is predominantly Catholic.

(32:11):
Okay, I didn't know that.
And then the other half is somekind of Protestant, mostly
evangelical, very, very smallJewish community of which I was
not yet part.
I was raised knowing that wewere people who called ourselves
non-denominational Christians.

See that to me, we call it Christian with a
capital C, which is, you know,the crazy born-again people.

So when I hear non-denominational.

I think of ultra-religious Christian people
Like the Quirrell movement.

And really what it is is making sure that you
don't have to apply a label.
It is just, and that's whythere's so much room for it
being you know diplomatic wordshere For it being an exercise in
fundamentalism or in beingsomething very open.
And we fell more on the openside, mostly because we didn't

(33:03):
affiliate.
So my mom comes from a longline of Pentecostal ministers
and that didn't fit her anymoreand so she stopped practicing, I
think early, early in life,with her family, and my dad
immigrated from Italy when hewas in middle school and his
whole family is Roman Catholicand he really struggled with his

(33:27):
faith and the way it waspracticed in his family.
So my parents made theconscious decision not to raise
us formally anything.
So we knew the name because inTexas people would ask Like they
ask you know now what school doyou go to, what do you do, what
church do you go to, what?
a weird intro question and youknow, but it asks where's your

(33:49):
community based?
And you know, and it's not aquestion about how religious are
you and what kind of religiousare you, but where do you go
when you're sad?
Where do you bring food whensomething happens in the
community?
So it's like it makes sense.
It's just not the precisequestion.
So we had to have an answer,but it wasn't an answer for fit.
Today my mom says that sheraised us to secular.

(34:12):
She would never have used thatword back then Because you know
it meant atheist, which is alsonot what secular means.
But it meant that we had theroom to explore and my parents
expected us to explore, and thenI did.
I loved the Bible.
I really was fascinated withthe idea of this ancient text

(34:34):
that we carried and update andstill have a relationship with,
and I got very into the new KingJames version of the Bible and
I would just read and read, andpartially because I had heard
that there were these handful ofverses about why being gay was
a sin and I was going to go tohell, and so I was obsessed with

(34:55):
that concept and I had to knoweverything about it, and so I
was mostly reading it as alitigator.
I needed to know what was beingsaid about me in this book that
was being weaponized andfollowing me my entire life and
ultimately I found out, likethey don't have a case, like it

(35:17):
just doesn't support thatthere's a lot of things that
they're like it says this in theBible and I'm like.

It also says not to wear mixed fabrics, but you
know, I don't think that'ssomething we're also following.

It ended up like showing me that my greatest
passion in life was going to begetting in the heads of biblical
authors, being like what in theworld did that mean?
What were they so scared of?
Why couldn't you mix these twofabrics?
What did it mean if you did,and why would that get you
shunned and expelled and youknow whatever else?
And I needed to know whysomething that I didn't think

(35:52):
was bad about myself was goingto get me in hell, which was a
place that I couldn't reallyfind any reason why it needed to
exist, and that was myreligiosity.
It was always trying to findsome answer, because I was shown

(36:13):
a worldview that said thisfaith always has an answer.

Which it doesn't, and that's one of the things I
love about Judaism, maybebecause I'm an intellectual,
because I like to questionthings and I'm like why.
You know, and that's, I think,one of the cornerstones of
Judaism is questioning andtrying to grapple with these
questions.
And that leads me to my nextquestion what was your first
exposure to Judaism, being, youknow, in Texas, where there

(36:40):
obviously are Jews, you knowwe're everywhere Because you
know, like the world music.
So what was your first exposureto Judaism?
Did you meet someone who wasJewish?
How did you hear about Judaism?
You know, I like to say that Ididn't really meet people who
weren't Jewish until I was five,so kind of maybe the opposite

(37:02):
experience of what you had.

Yeah, around the time that I was starting to
realize that I was gay.
So in elementary school I wasvery aware I was put in after
school care at the JCC, whichwas right next door to my
neighborhood, and it was mostlybecause it was convenient to my
parents, really, that youthought everyone there who
worked there was really lovelyand nice and the hours lined up

(37:24):
with what they needed Practicalreasons.
And then, you know, we litchabout candles every Friday and
we ate challah and I got tolearn about what this was and
one of my best friends startedsharing her relationship not
even her beliefs, but herrelationship with her religion

(37:44):
with me and I was fascinatedbecause what I had was belief.
What I did not have waspractice.
There was no version ofChristianity that I was
practicing and I was like, whatdo you mean?
There are things that you do.
My Protestant family was soscared of ritual.
They were literally nervousabout the Catholic side of my

(38:07):
family Inserting things or doing, and it turns out both sides
were actually very nervous aboutreligious difference.
So, surprise, having a convertin the middle of things really
spices it up.
But I loved that Judaismallowed for questioning.
That was the first thing,Because when I said that, you

(38:28):
know what I was raised inpresented itself as with the
answers.
The first thing I learned aboutJudaism was that it does not and
it will not there's.
It's extremely rare to readanything in modernity that says
here is what it is.
Rather, here are the years oftradition, years of
interpretation, the years ofexpanding the practice to mean

(38:51):
something, and we are alwaysreading between the lines and
trying to figure out what wasthe point.
That makes more sense to me.
That is an active engagement insomething, and I wanted to be
someone whose religion doessomething.
And so when I found out, youknow, you've got these rituals,
and then you know, of course Iwas a kid, so Hanukkah just

(39:14):
seemed incredible and I lovedthat the calendar moved, you
know, because I didn't reallyunderstand at the time how the
Hebrew calendar didn't haveanything to do with the
Gregorian calendar, but itseemed exciting, like you never
knew when a holiday was going tofall on you.
Which is stressful as an adultbut fun as a kid, I guess, and I
feel like every time it wouldcome back, there would be some
new thing they were doing.

Well, there's so many holidays.

There's so many holidays.

It's an obscene amount of holidays.

But you know, you live by a calendar and I
wanted that.
I wanted to have something thatwas going to be an active part
in my everyday and you know,every Jew, every Passover, has
to decide whether or not to doit.
You have to reconcile your lifewith that date on the calendar.

(39:59):
Whether you are sitting at anOrthodox Seder or you are you
know, I don't know eatingmatzah-ball soup at Katzah, you
are choosing whether or not todo the thing that all of the
Jews are doing Like.
That is an active participationthat I didn't have in my
religious identity growing up,and I'm grateful for that,

(40:20):
because it left room forexploration.

When did you decide to officially convert?
Is it something that just kindof was always there and you
didn't realize it was an option?
Or was it something that, whenyou became a little bit older,
you were like Well, I'm going togo through with this process.

So for the longest time I did not know.
It was an option.

I thought I was like oh, you thought you had to
be born Jewish, yeah.

I thought I will be someone who has a love for
Judaism, who reads Judaism.
I never thought I would begoing to synagogues.
I thought that would be offlimits to me and I also didn't
know about Reform Judaism.
You know, I read the entireshelf at Barnes Noble on Judaism
and guess what doesn't make anappearance back then Reform.

Judaism, which is Surprise.
Well, back then, yes, I feellike the form movement is much
more prevalent now, and visible,yeah, it is much more visible.

And then finding out that actually all of the
Jews that I knew, all my friendsin school, were Reform Jews.
It was funny to not havegrasped that.
And so it was a couple of yearsof shopping around at different
houses of worship.
We tried the UnitarianUniversalists, we went to the
Hindu temple, we tried severalversions of Christianity modern,

(41:31):
progressive movements and sometraditional stuff and ultimately
we felt the most at home in theReform synagogue in San Antonio
.
Now, mind you, I had absolutelyno idea what was happening.
The first time I gathered thecourage to go, you know, fully
two years after I had realizedJudaism was the path for me.
That's how long it took me tocome to synagogue.

(41:53):
But the first time I heard mycanter chant the Chatzikarish, I
was like there is something inthis melody that's carrying a
history of experience that isboth intensely particular and
just incredibly universalistic,because when I was reading the

(42:16):
words, I was like there'snothing in here that anybody I
know couldn't say I'm into, andI just I'd never experienced
what I call a backwardcompatible religion.
I was like, you know, if Ishared this prayer book with my
grandma, this very devoutCatholic woman who to this day
is just like one of the bestCatholics that I know.

She gets the award .

I'd show this to her and I know she would see
God in it.
Like she would understand whatwe were doing.

I'm still wowed by that.
It's interesting that youtalked about the music being
connection, because I feel likesometimes what I'm at service is
it's almost like a primalconnection to the music, so I
definitely understand that.
Can you walk me through thesteps of reform and conversion?
I recently found out from RabbiJulie that you don't have to be
told no three times.

Indeed.

Which you know is perpetuated through media.
So what was the process?
From deciding you were going toconvert to officially becoming
a Jew?

Um, for me it was getting comfortable with my
local synagogue, first tryingthem all out.
Went to the Orthodox synagogueit was lovely.
Went to the conservativesynagogue it was absolutely
lovely.
Went to the Forum synagogue andwas like, okay, this is what's
going to align, both spirituallyand, at that time, like I said,
it was very political and itwas going to align politically

(43:44):
with what I was looking for, Um,and so I, you know, started to
attend, became a regular, got toknow a couple of people, um,
and then you know, asked whatthe options were and I said,
well, we've got an intro toJudaism class.
So we signed up for the class,Um, it was a weekly lecture

(44:05):
series.
We did that for like eightmonths and then there's a Hebrew
component for like another six,six weeks, Um, and then you
have a whole bunch of follow upstuff.
So you end up filling up anentire year and want you to live
the year according to theHebrew calendar, um, see what
you're going to feel andexperience at each of the

(44:25):
holidays and importantmilestones, so that you you've
tried it on fully before youcommit.
And you know it differs alittle bit depending on where
you go, but for the most part.
It's a year of study andexperience so that you know
fully what you are choosing, andthat's sort of where the
tradition of being refused threetimes comes from.

(44:47):
You have to really want this.

Yeah, it's a major life decision.

Yeah, yeah, it's a really big deal, and we're
one of the few faiths thatactually makes it not difficult,
because it's not supposed to bedifficult, but makes it a
process that you have to totallyopt into over and over and over
, because, well, what we sayhere, um, when we're educating
um potential converts, is you'reputting on a name tag that a

(45:14):
lot of people have a prettyintense feelings about, and so
you have to really be doing thisbecause you're committed to it,
because it will change the waysome people in the world
interact with you and, hopefully, it changes the lens with which
you see the world.

So I know you and your husband converted together.
Do you think that, um thisprocess made it much more of a
shared experience as opposed tosomething extremely personal?

Yes, and I will be upfront with you.
Um, I was initially a littleuncomfortable with the question,
chose not to say anything justcause it's you know it's.
It's such a private like Ichoose to be very, very public.

Yeah.

Um with, with my process, because I want to make
sure people know that they cando this too.
Um, we don't advertise, I mean,we don't, we don't, we don't
proselytize, but I think wecould advertise a little bit.
Um, but it also converting withhim, was that that just the
most intensely spiritualexperience?

(46:17):
Because we had completelydifferent approaches to Judaism
then and now, um, our practicesshift, our beliefs evolve and
deepen and we fell in love withdifferent things.
At the start, I loved Talmud um, which just sounds crazy, but I
loved the sacredness andrecording arguments and debate

(46:41):
to make sure that if you got itwrong, you could go back later
and be like, okay, well, theother thing I thought of was
this so maybe we can, you know,tease that out a bit.
Um, but I didn't convert for God, and this is as someone who
prayed every single day, likewith my family, and then, you
know, before bed, my personalpractice was also to pray and it

(47:03):
was are you there, god?
It's me, margaret style prayer.
Um, and that came later.
That came like a long timeafter learning the liturgy and
being present in services that Ipicked up on that part of it
and, um, it was just.
It was incredibly special to beable to bounce ideas off of my

(47:25):
husband and see.
You know what?
What does this spark in you?
Why does this move you?
Cause I loved being moved byall of it.
Um, I wouldn't have changedanything.
It's the most incredibleprocess and I firmly believe
that that's why we have peoplelike prospective converts today
attend the class with theirpartners if they have a serious

(47:47):
partner, because it just it iseven if the partner is Jewish,
even if the partner is Jewish.
Yes, because if one of you isgoing to dramatically change
your life, your partner needs towitness it and needs to help
you reintegrate everything thatyou are cause.
You're not actually changing,you're changing the box.
Like you're, you are justaffirming things that we're

(48:11):
going to come out throughJudaism.
You have to.
You have to be able to supporteach other through the process
so that, when you're done, youcan meaningfully be Jewish.
Like, what does it mean to beJewish in your home?
What's that going to look likefor someone who didn't, you know
, grow up with the music andgrow up with this sense of I'm
Jewish?
Because it's really hard tofill in that gap and learn

(48:32):
what's going to be in your blank, like, why, why did you do it?
It's the first thing everybodywants to ask you, and so you're
going to need help workshoppingthat and and and exploring it,
and I think the best way is witha partner.

It's beautifully put.
I think it can be like the wayI've always kind of thought it
as a very isolated experiencebut, I, think you know taking
that journey with somebody is isa beautiful thing.
Do you feel like you werealways Jewish?
You just happened to be born ina family that wasn't Jewish.

It is so funny?
Um, because, yes, in a way thatI can't really explain, you
know one.
One day and I can, I can seewhere I was the morning.
I had this feeling.
It was in front of my parents'old house in San Antonio.
One day I woke up and it wasthe first day that I had a

(49:24):
thought Like I.
I recalled a memory from mychildhood and just
subconsciously referred tomyself as Jewish back then.
Like I felt like I had been aJewish kid, or it was like it
was something deep within youthat was always there.
Yeah, um it just it fits so well.
When I finally put it on that Ithought maybe this was always

(49:50):
there and I just never pulled itout and tried it for myself.
I also found out that a fewyears before his death, my

(54:17):
grandpa shared all of theseJewish artifacts with me in like
an old Tanakh that I have herein my office.
That was among his possessionsand he apparently had been
similarly in love with Hebrewand the idea of Judaism.
So I don't know, I think forpeople who are seeking, there's
a magic to exploring faith andreligion in general, and when I

(54:45):
found that coat, I was just soexcited for it to be mine.
And one day, a few years later,yeah, I woke up and it was as
if there had never been a momentwhere I wasn't wearing it.
The past was just harmonized.
And I feel that way now, and Ithink that is still the weirdest

(55:05):
part.

So people, you're making me cry.
I do have a question that I'vealways been kind of curious
about.
I know a lot of.
Obviously, when you convert,you are denouncing other
religions.
I know that you literally saythat right A lot of people who
are not Jewish.
Christmas is a huge deal forthem.
And I talked to people whosehusbands have converted and

(55:31):
almost like mourning the loss ofChristmas.
Was this difficult?
I know it's a huge thing for alot of people who aren't Jewish.
Is this something that youfound difficult to give up?

I am definitely an exception to the rule and I
tell people.
So I don't even share this withconversion students because I
don't want to influence anyone'sbeliefs or anything.
I was angry about Christmas,you were angry about Christmas.
Oh yeah, by the time I wasconverting I was just like, oh
that old thing.

(56:02):
Like I would feel the ragesimmer up at the beginning of
October when they startedplaying Christmas music in the
stores, because I'd found thisthing that I loved, that felt
completely mine and completelyme, and I felt like, when
Christmas would come out, it waschallenging this new light that

(56:22):
I had found, that I wanted toshine.
I was like no, there are otheroptions, don't you know?
There are other options.
I felt like I was runningaround screaming to the
townspeople there are otherchoices.
And I was taking it out onChristmas and it was completely
misplaced.
I fought with my family.

(56:42):
I was like I don't want to takea photo in front of the tree, I
don't want to exchange gifts onthat day.
This is the wrong position.

I will say Christmas can be very
overwhelming in America and itbecomes a lot.
And I feel like Christmas issome people who live their lives
more secular.
It becomes the only religiousthing they do, even if it's not
religious.
It becomes their wholepersonality.
So I can understand the angerabout that.

I was making it, I was totally deflecting.
It wasn't about Christmas.
It was about struggling to feellegitimate in the tradition
that I had chosen, thateverybody I knew knew that I had
chosen that.
I felt very green.
I felt like I've only been.
I'm a Jewish two-year-old.
How am I going to have anybodyrespect me and understand that

(57:38):
my holidays, my life cycle, isdifferent.
You can't just include me nowin these other things that, even
if you're a secular personobserving Christmas, it is a
Christian tradition.
People who are not Christiancan participate in Christian
traditions, but that doesn'tmean that the thing that means
the thing now means somethingmore universalistic.

(58:01):
Today, what I say is Christmasis beautiful, giving gifts is
important, the lights arestunning, especially in New York
the music is gorgeous.

Oh, New York Christmas.

New York does Christmas the best.
Yes, it is beautiful.
I grew up with six Christmastrees in the house.
We would decorate them.

It took weeks, so it's the universe, christmas
trees and you know what is mostbeautiful.
And will you find any pineneedles until April?

Yes, eventually my mom changed to fancy pre-lit
the plastic trees which are alot of use, easier to handle.
But it is absolutely beautiful.
And the thing is I didn't yetknow how to make it feel like
Christmas the warmth, thehappiness, the family
togetherness, the matchingsweaters, the warm drinks, the

(58:47):
tradition the songs.
I didn't yet know how to do thatin Judaism, and so the reminder
of Christmas and that I haddone that before and I'd found
this piece and I was now kind offloating trying to figure out
my way I took out that rage onChristmas had nothing to do with
Christmas.
That was my personal war onChristmas.

(59:07):
So there is a war on Christmas.
It's just your personal war,Poor job at all kinds of things.

I feel like though , being an American Jew, it is a
difficult thing because it'ssuch an all-encompassing season
and it is like, hey, this tooand I know Hanukkah, which I'm
going to be doing an episode hasbecome very commercialized to
kind of combat.
I'd be like, hey, we can dougly sweaters, we can do
Hanukkah gingerbread houses andHanukkah bushes.
But I think the holiday seasonfor Jews is kind of it's just

(59:35):
kind of weird in general livingin America and it being such a
commercialized andoveremphasized time of the year.

It is.

So you have a bachelor's in women's studies,
which I think is pretty rare fora man.
What made you decide to choosethat as a major?

Indeed, out of the nine graduates the year I
graduated in that college, onlytwo of us were men.
First of all, I wanted to dosomething different.
Before I knew I wanted to be aclergy person, I thought I
wanted to be a senator.
So it's not hard to see how thesinger-songwriter thing was
really only sparking a part ofmy love, and I loved theory and

(01:00:16):
I wanted to understand myselfbetter.
I wanted to understand sexuality.
I wanted to understand how itinfluences the way we interact
with the world, and I wasconvinced, based on what I loved
about the Torah, that there wasgoing to be enough in there
about relationships and how weposition ourselves with the

(01:00:37):
divine, because everything thatwe have in our culture that's
anti-woman, anti-lgbtq,anti-other, a lot of our
anti-Black tradition comes froma place of religiosity, and it's
not because religion said theseare the right things.
It is because someone withbigoted ideas realized religion

(01:01:00):
is a powerful tool and I wantedto be someone who could be on
the inside, be in religion, workin religion and use the tools
of liberation to access religionin a more holistic way.
And I thought who better to goin and tell a whole bunch of

(01:01:22):
Jewish people about how excitingJudaism is than somebody who
chose it three years ago?
But I thought you know what, ifI'm not going to feel like I'm
doing it wrong because I'm notdoing Jewish the way my grandma
did, what have I got to lose?

Nicole Kelly (01:01:38):
Yeah.

Stefano Iacono (01:01:39):
And so I went into this women's sexuality and
gender studies program and Isaid, hey, do you think there's
a chance I can do an independentstudy with a Jewish focus?
And I said, what do you mean?
And I said, well, I read thisreally cool stuff in this
compendium of legal Jewishethics called the Mishnah that
talks about the diversity ofgenders in ancient society.
And they said, oh, okay, we'venever heard anything like that.

(01:02:04):
And they let me run with it.
Wow, and it got to be thisintensely Jewish, very gender
expansive period of study and ithelped me understand my own
defensiveness, the things that Irespond to from society when I

(01:02:28):
hear you know a homophobic slur,instead of now responding in a
place that is no, I'm not, that,it's okay.
What?
Where does that come from?
Where does that idea come from?
How are they failing to know me?
And then, of course, I'm stillthinking well, they're idiots.

(01:02:49):
Yeah, I still get very angryabout it, but realizing that I
wanted to know what made societythis way, and so women's
studies is a way of bringinganthropology, sociology and
psychology together and justsaying, well, here's our best
estimation of how we got here,that's so interesting.

I'm obsessed with Holocaust history and education,
and a lot of the books I'veread are about, you know,
leading up to why people feelthis way.
But I guess I've never reallythought about other marginalized
groups.
That's so interesting, so talkme through.
When you decided to become amember of the clergy?

Growing up, I thought I wanted to be if not
you know some kind of apolitician, a youth pastor.
You know it was the only modelI knew from movies.
I didn't know anything elseabout clergy other than you know
, like the priests were a thing.
But when I got more involvedJewishly, I realized that, you

(01:03:53):
know, the cantorate,specifically, was going to
combine my love of music, mylove of pastoral care.
You know the moments we get tobe with people and celebrate
them or mourn with them.
So music, pastoral care andlifelong learning.
I wanted to have an excuse tosurround myself with books and
just get lost in arcaneknowledge.

(01:04:15):
That's what I wanted.
There's a little bit of it thatfelt like Harry Potter.
I wanted to be pronouncingthese blessings and connecting
with people and findingmeaningful ways to mark our time
on earth.
I had spent time with peoplewho tried to give me answers and
I realized there's so much morejoy and power in helping people

(01:04:38):
discover their questions.
There's no other way to do thatand I didn't want to be a
therapist, so this just madesense, but your job does kind of
entail a little bit of that.
We refer out when things areabove our pay grade.
Yeah, you got to be verycareful, of course, but it you

(01:04:59):
know, I wanted to feel thingswith people and experience
things with people, because ithelps punctuate your own
existence.
It's an incredible privilegewhen someone comes into your
office and cries about whatthey're feeling.
It's an incredible privilegewhen you stand with an entire
family, with a 13-year-old whotalks about their Holocaust
survivor grandparent and howreading the Torah is an act of

(01:05:20):
defiance in the modern age, orburying a Holocaust survivor and
holding a family that knowsthat now there's so much more
weight on their shoulders tokeep the story going.
It must have been at least ahundred years.

(01:05:40):
We must have cried an ocean, anocean of tears.
We wandered through the coldest, darkest night and you were
waiting for me there, a spark oflight.

(01:06:03):
And you were waiting for methere, a spark of light.

(01:06:25):

(01:06:55):
You were quiet, so tight.
I never felt my heart could flyaway.

(01:07:16):
I can't believe I get to bewith you every single day.
Forever is a long, long, longtime.
I'm beloved, I am yours and youare mine.

(01:07:39):
You are my love.
I am yours and you are mine.

(01:08:05):
I see you and I know this isnot how I thought my life would
ever go.
Now I see you were meant for meand I was meant for you.

(01:08:44):
Yes, I was meant for you.
I see you were meant for me andI was meant for you.

(01:09:15):
I see you were meant for me andI was meant for you.

(01:09:39):
I get to play active and passiveroles in so many people's lives
and I just wanted to be someonewho could sort of help them
organize the emotions and thespirituality around them,
because I mean, god knows Ican't organize anything in my
personal life.

It's so much you can control.
So walk me through the processof kind of start to finish, of
becoming a ordained canter inthe reform movement.

So the first step, you get an undergraduate
degree of some kind.
Then you apply for schoolCantors and rabbis in the reform
movement go to the same school.
It's a five-year program whereyou get a master's degree and
then you write a thesis and thenyou get ordained the first year
.
Now for rabbis and cantors, forlike the last, I think, like 25

(01:10:29):
, 20 years maybe the first yearis in Jerusalem, so that's where
you learn Hebrew study text,get deeply into the practice of
the calendar and all of that.
You learn the liturgy.
And then you spend four yearsin one of the stateside campuses
we just Cincinnati's in theprocess of closings.

(01:10:52):
That was one of the options,but now it's gonna be LA and New
York and you spend four moreyears taking graduate level
courses ranging from rabbinictext, bible, classical
repertoire, so like chanting thethings that you hear the golden
age cantors chanting.
We have to learn all of that.
You know we have to learn howto daven traditional service.

(01:11:14):
There's like a year longworkshop that covers just the
liturgy of Rosh Hashanah and howto chant it.
There's a year for Yom Kippurand then you know, you learn how
to do things like funerals andweddings.
So you get a lot of booklearning.
There's a lot of very cooltheoretical stuff that you do,
and then there's a bunch ofpractice, because you have to

(01:11:34):
somehow cram music schoolbecause you didn't have to major
in music.
Yeah, to go to cantorial school.
It just means that you'reglutton for punishment if you do
what I did.
I was just on a panel withprospective students a couple of
weeks ago and they're like do Ineed to major in music?
I said no, but are you good atmusic right now?
Because if not, this is goingto be a slog Like it is.

(01:11:57):
It's a lot of work.
You graduate with close to like200 hours.
You get to learn a little bitof everything, but it sets you
up to know what are the thingsthat you're gonna study for the
rest of your career, and so it's.
It's formative.
You, by the end of the process,you know what your passions are
and you know what kind ofservice job you want.

(01:12:17):
And most cantors today end upin congregational settings, and
I knew that's what I wanted.
I wanted to work at a largecongregation with a big history
and an amazing team, and so forme it was.
You know, when this job came upand I met this clergy team.
I was like, okay, well, I'm inif y'all are it.

(01:12:38):
It's like like sending a littlenotice as circle.
Yes, yes, for you.
It's like I wanted to write thema song and email it to them and
then not pick up the phone justin case.

It is a big deal finding you know a lot of people
spend their entire careers inone place, so it's it is like
finding a life partner, findingthe right congregation that you
fit in.

Yeah, you have to.
You have to be able to servethe people what they need and
know when to step back and notmake it about yourself.

What is the drop rate at school?

That's an excellent question.

Because it is such a involved process, I think a
lot of people probably enter itnot realizing how much work it
is, or I think so a good fit Agood.

So it's already a pretty small, selective group
of people that choose to go toseminary, like of any kind, and
so then when you have the Jewishseminaries, that's even smaller
.
When you have the reform one,it's an even smaller, smaller
group.
So I think in my year, forexample, across all campuses we
had 45 students okay and that'sthe cantorial and rabbinical
process and the education routeand I think at the end of it, I

(01:13:58):
think somewhere between 35 and38 of us were ordained.
There's a little bit of adrop-off.
It's mostly people realizingthis isn't what I wanted to do
because, you know, a half of usentered before we even knew who
we were.
It just that's how school worksyeah you know it's grad school.

(01:14:18):
And then you know there are, ofcourse, people who don't make it
through and I think that isalso because it wasn't the right
fit.
Because you know, if you like,I tell the students rather
flippantly if there's nothingelse that you can do, that means
everything's pointing youtoward this.
And if all of these things, allof these various paths of the

(01:14:42):
clergy, are what are going tofulfill you, keep refilling your
cup and make you someone whocan always be giving, then
there's nothing else that'sgonna be able to do that for you
.
And you have to.
You have to find the waythrough and the school will work
with you.
There are people who you knowadd an extra year, go through it
that way.
You know it is a reallygrueling process, but I think it

(01:15:06):
has to be.
You have to be fully formed andable to articulate who you are
before you can step in and andhelp people and celebrate them
yeah, even as something assimple as celebrating people,
you have to be able to show upand love them, and you have to
have sorted out your own issuesbefore that so a few months ago

(01:15:28):
you put on a concert.

So how did that come about and how did you
choose the theme and thematerial?

so one of the requirements for ordination in
the Cantorial program is asenior recital, and oh, that's
fun and it it would have been,except that mine was scheduled
during the pandemic.
Oh, that's not fun, yeah.
And so I had big plans to do,you know, multi-genre.
I wanted a band and and Iwanted other people to sing with

(01:15:56):
me and all of a sudden myoption became zero.
Or recording with just apianist in one side of a room
and me and the other side, andnothing.
I wanted to do.
None of the repertoire that Ihad dreamed of worked that way.
I wanted to lift up queer artand art that spoke to queer

(01:16:18):
people, meaning stuff that has,like, become queer, you know cuz
, like, for example, barbarastrice, hand queer icon, not
actually queer, yeah, and yetwho would ever question?
Of course I know.
And I wanted to celebrate themusic that informed the people

(01:16:42):
who did all this before me sothat I could be this, you know,
naive, young, queer person whowas gonna go out and become a
clergy person and save the worldand be there for other little
queer kids.
You know, but it really was a.
Here's the music that goteveryone else through, and these
are our, these are our fightsongs, our pride songs, our very

(01:17:03):
powerful moments, and I wantedto show that you can make it
religious music by sharing theintent that was under it.
Everything in the liturgy issupposed to arouse something in
us.
It is supposed to bring uscloser to God or each other or
creation, and, and all of thiswas the same, you know, and any

(01:17:25):
song that I pick off of thislist, like goodbye yellow brick
road.
We're looking at Elton Johnacknowledging this, this
divergence in his life in whichhe had to choose.
Do I continue to do this thing,which isn't necessarily the
easy path, because his life waskilling him, or am I going to

(01:17:46):
brave the wild and be me?
I mean that it's, it's the mostapt metaphor for coming out.
And so it was.
It was stuff like that, youknow, come to my window.
The first, like super outbridge, is that I don't care what they
think.
What do they know about thislove anyway?

(01:18:06):
Things like that before we wereeven a blip on anyone's
political radar, things thatwere defiant and important,
things that I want our queerkids today to be proud about no

(01:18:26):
chill, and yet I shiver.
There's no flame, and yet I'mnot sure what I'm afraid of, and
yet I'm trembling.
There's no storm, yet I youthunder and I'm breathless.

(01:18:53):
Why, I wonder?
Week one moment, then the next,I'm fine.
I feel as if I'm falling.
Every time I close my eyes andflowing through my body is a
river of surprise.

(01:19:15):
Feelings are awakening.
I hardly recognize as my.
What are all these newsensations?
What's the secret?
They?
I'm not sure I understand, butI like the way I feel.

(01:19:47):
Oh, why is it that every time Iclose my eyes, he's there,
water shining on his skin, thesunlight in his hair, and all

(01:20:09):
the while I'm thinking thingsthat I can't wait to share with
me.
I'm a bundle of confusion, yetit has a strange appeal.
Did it all begin with him?

(01:20:35):
And the way he makes me?

I like how a he makes me how did you end up
having the concert?

here.
Hmm.
So when I couldn't do itthrough school, I was actually
really annoying, I'm sure, tothe administration of my school
and I said look, that format isnot gonna work for what I want
to pull off and I'm confidentthat can pull this off.
I just need time, I just need apostponement until I can do

(01:21:24):
this live somewhere.
And so my school is like, okay,fine, we think you're trying to
find a way out of this.
But they said yes, and so Idove into the thesis and then,
when I was here, I brought it upone day and this incredible,
incredible clergy team and ouramazing operations folks and our

(01:21:45):
communications folks realizedthis could be something really
cool, really big, and so theydecided to co-sponsor my senior
recital with the school and youknow I wanted to celebrate this
place too.
You know, congregation wrote ofShalom is one of the first
congregations in the country toemploy out queer people, and I

(01:22:10):
wanted to honor that because itthat's why I'm here.

It's the people of this community they kept me in
New York how does being a gayman inform your faith and how
does being Jewish inform youridentity as a gay man?

love the way that's worded.
I've never been asked that way,so they are both part of like a
composite lens.
Being a gay person means beingsomething that people feel like
they understand because there is, you know, the same desire to

(01:22:50):
find love, live life, do the dothis, but then understanding
that everything that's beenbuilt in society wasn't built
for you, wasn't built on yourassumption.
Something as simple andinnocuous as having to tell a
contractor who's going to be inmy apartment doing some work
that I won't be there but myhusband will be, and just

(01:23:11):
anticipating that on the otherend of the line this stranger
might think feel, say whateverit is that they're going to say
that's prompted by this.
That is just a fact about who Iam.
So you're always a little bit,no, I am always a little bit on
edge and doing the most that Ican to make sure that I'm not
preemptively defensive aboutanything.

(01:23:35):
You know I lived in a city so Ididn't experience the the
grossest homophobia, but I, youknow I worked in childcare and I
was told, you know, parentswould be more comfortable if you
don't hug the children here,and you know being told that.
You know we can respect thatyou and Alex, my husband, love

(01:23:55):
each other, want to livetogether, but it's, you know,
it's just not the same as amarriage and like those are.
Those are small ish things, butevery part of that contributes
to your worthiness, and so my,my love of Judaism is this idea
that everything that was created, everything that exists now, is

(01:24:15):
an ongoing process that we'reinvolved in, and I love the idea
that being Jewish is also beingvery different.
World is also not built forJews.
The world is not built by Jews,and knowing that I was becoming
part of a community of peoplewho are already used to living

(01:24:35):
in the margins, yeah, makes thewhole.
It permeates the literature.
It permeates it at the biblicallevel, because we were just,
you know, wanderers.
There weren't Abrahamic faithsyet we are still figuring out
how not to just be warring clansof violent people, and then,
you know, it permeates the.
After the destruction of thetemple we get to see how Jewish

(01:24:58):
law comes about by people whowere so scared of what could
befall them.
And then after that we haveliterature built on folk
practices and traditions thatdeveloped in hostile host nation
nations.
I said well how profoundlycomfortable that is to me.

(01:25:20):
As someone who knew they weregay in South Texas at eight, I
distinctly remember being calledslurs by grown men because I
represented something thatscared them, something that they
didn't understand, and thatignorance reminds me of the

(01:25:48):
ignorance that I encounterwearing a kippa, which I chose
and choose actively to do it asa name tag.
I choose to be very publiclyJewish because it's not a skin I
want to be able to take off andgetting to see how people will
come to you out of ignorance inthat way too, all built on their

(01:26:12):
fears, all built on theirassumptions.
For me they're very similarlenses and experiences and they
are what make me fight and pushback to make all of this worth
it.
And when you do, you get to seewhat you're fighting for and

(01:26:39):
what really matters.
You know I think queer peopleface.
You know, the worst fear ofcoming out is that you'll lose
the people you love and onceyou're willing to make that
decision, you get really good atcutting things out of your life
.
I was very lucky I got to keepall of the people who really

(01:27:01):
mattered to me, but I don't havesecond cousins because of this
and that is painful.
And yet it also made meappreciate more all the people
who stayed.
And it's the same with anythingelse in my life since knowing

(01:27:23):
that, yeah, okay, I cut outChristmas and I'm not saying
that everyone who converts needsto do that.
Please don't if you love it butit made me make sense of all of
my Jewish options and reallydive in deep and I found great
appreciation in so many thingsthat I would never have picked

(01:27:46):
up if I didn't need to whatimportance do you think there is
in having gay clergy to Jewishqueer?
youth.
I wish I'd had some.
I think every time there's aqueer person who can stand up
and be an adult who's allowed totalk to children, it is showing
children that we are okay, thatwe are safe.

(01:28:10):
Every time I wear a kippa in agay bar in New York City,
everyone in the room withreligious trauma finds me
because they want to talk to meabout how I am possibly both of
these things in this space, andit is because religion again has

(01:28:30):
is a tool that can be used bypeople with horrible beliefs but
is not inherently that.
And yet the vast majority of ushave been at the mercy of
someone who's using that toolfor that purpose and so, like I
help them no, I just listen.
I don't actually do anything.

I don't have to do anything.
You're still able to just kindof like sip your drink.

Yeah you know I'm, you know, doing my thing.
I just wanted to go out onThursday yeah, I really, I
really should know by now, afterseven years of doing this in
New York, but it it's amazing tothen hear people over and over
come to the conclusion oh, thatwas people it wasn't religion.
It wasn't religion or it, and itcould have been one.

(01:29:16):
Particular sects professedbeliefs, but that is also not
religion.
Like, you, can always gofurther back and find what
something could have been orshould have been, and, honestly,
there are so many options outthere that, like just saying
that because of one organizationor another, that you know you

(01:29:39):
can't be queer and religious, isnonsense.
What we need to be morecomfortable with is if you don't
want to be religious, you havefound connection elsewhere.
Religion is just one way toconnect to something beyond
yourself, and for too long ithas been closed to queer people
because we present anotheroption.

(01:30:01):
You know, if you want to livein a world in which we are
literally just parallels ofbiblical people, well, they
weren't people doing what theywanted to do, and so it makes
sense that you would create arigid version of a society that
only allowed for a man and awoman and children, and this and

(01:30:24):
this and that, and so when Iget to, you know, teach a group
of fifth graders about the Torahand I get to stand there as a
gay man and talk about well, youknow, my husband and I we're
studying this passage.
It shows them that, oh, thisactually can apply, like we can
glean wisdom in the way that theancient sages did.

(01:30:45):
There is nobody in the year 200in the Middle East whose life
resembled ours.
If they can get something outof this document, so can we, and
we're not obligated to try tocome to the same conclusions or
even have the same process.
And I think having queer clergy, and specifically gay male
clergy, is an important way todefy conceptions that anybody

(01:31:10):
has to be any particular way.
Like I can use my maleprivilege in this space to
subvert the notions ofmasculinity and do it in a way
that I'm basing it on myunderstanding of God and the
Torah and mostly justencouraging everyone to do it
their way.
That's what we have to do.
That's why it's so hard to beJewish, is that you have to

(01:31:34):
figure out your way.
So, yeah, they should see mestruggle, and I hope that
encourages them to do the same.

(01:32:22):
I would dial the numbers just tolisten to your breath, and I
would stand inside my head andhold the hand of death.
You don't know how far I'd goto ease this precious ache, and
you don't know how much I'd giveor how much I can take just to

(01:32:42):
reach you.
Just to reach you, oh to reachyou.
Come to my window, oh, callinside.
Wait by the light of the moon.

(01:33:02):
Come to my window.
I'll be home soon, keeping myeyes open.
I cannot afford to sleepForgiving away promises.
I know that I can't keep.

(01:33:23):
Nothing fills the blacknessthat has seeped into my chest.
I need you in my blood.
I am forsaking all the rest,just to reach you.
Just to reach you, oh to reachyou.
Come to my window, call inside.

(01:33:51):
Come to my window, I'll be homesoon.
I don't care what they think, Idon't care what they say.

(01:34:12):
What do they know about thislove?
Anyway, come, come, come to mywindow, I'll be home, I'll be

(01:34:41):
home, I'll be home, I'm cominghome.
Come to my window, oh, callinside.
Come to my window, I'll be home, I'll be home, I'll be home,

(01:35:02):
I'll be home, I'm coming home.
Come to my window.
Oh, call inside.
Come to my window, I'll be homesoon.

So you visited India in 2019, what was that
like, and can you tell me aboutthe Jewish community there that
you discovered?

I will say first of all, it was the most
incredible, just beautiful place.
I only went to Mumbai and acity called Kochin in the south,
in the state of Kerala.
This was with a trip run by JDCand twine, that's the Joint
Distribution Committee.
They have just for agesprotected, established and

(01:36:09):
connected Jewish communitiesacross the world to make sure
that we know just how manyversions of us there are out
there.
Which is very important work.
Right, it goes in with what youwere talking about earlier,
that we can actually expand ourown understanding of all of this
when we look at the ways thatother people are doing the same

(01:36:29):
thing that we're doing.
So this was a trip organized bythe JDC and it took, I think,
20 American clergy students andput us with 20 Israelis and 20
Indian Jews and we went throughJewish Mumbai.
We saw the sites of where theyhad the attacks.

(01:36:53):
I think it was 7-11 when ithappened.
For them it was like there itwas a terror attack.
Some terror cell from Pakistanhad come in and wreaked havoc
for a while in the city, and sowe got to see what that looked
like and how it is stillrippling out in the community
and people are still grapplingwith this in a place where Jews

(01:37:17):
lived in peace in their host.
Nation is the only country inthe world that never persecuted
its Jewish population.

India, really India.

And so holding those two truths, seeing like
standing in the site of thisanti-Jewish terror attack and
learning about how this is ahost nation.

How long ago was that terrorist?

attack.
Oh gosh, that's something thatI should absolutely know.
It was in the last 20 years,last 15 maybe In my head 10
years ago was the 90s yeah, Idon't need to tell me Okay, so
it was in 2008.
Ah, okay, yeah, yeah, and thatjust that feels so bizarrely

(01:37:55):
modern, like that's Obama era,yeah, like that's crazy to think
about.
And so you know, that was oneof the settings.
And then we went to the south,to this city called Kochin,
where they have a street calledJewtown, and it is because it

(01:38:17):
was a big, thriving Jewishcommunity.
The Jewish community in Indiais like 4,800 years old, or
something that's a little old.
It's a little old and I don'tever quote me on numbers.
I'm not the history or numbersperson.
The idea is they'd lived inpeace, they got to flourish.
There were multiple differentcommunities that came up with
their own flourishes on Jewishpractice, incredibly tight knit,

(01:38:42):
and, you know, they lived sideby side with the mostly Hindu
community.
Which struck me the most aboutthe trip was that we got to tour
these old synagogues thataren't used by Jews anymore.
There are there are, I think,right now, 4,500 Jews left in
India.
The community continues to makealiyah to Israel and otherwise

(01:39:06):
they mostly live in Mumbai.
But these synagogues are anabsolute pristine condition
because they are lovingly andpridefully taken care of by the
Hindu folks who live in thosecommunities, and when we would
come through, people would be soexcited.
I work here to clean it andkeep it beautiful every day, and

(01:39:29):
all I have wanted was for aJewish community to come in and
pray and I was just.
I was like what are you talkingabout?
I've never, I've neverencountered that.
You want me to come here andpray?

They want the Jews to come.
You want Jews.

Yeah, that's not usually how people feel about
Jews, yeah, and to hear howthese other young Jews
experienced being Jewish inIndia and you know it's such a
cliche, but finding out howsimilar we all are, yeah, it was

(01:40:06):
amazing.
Gosh, I want to go back.
I will never, I will neverforget how incredible a Shabbat
dinner is in India.

What did you?

eat, oh my gosh, I mean the best versions of all
of your favorite food at yourfavorite Indian restaurant.
Oh my gosh.

I'm clearly writing down a trip to India to
visit the Indian Jews.

Yes, yes, oh, that's so cool I mean, that's
even I already think it's socool when you have a cuisine
that decides to go kosher,because that's so fascinating to
me.
And if you're not Jewish andyou own the business, you can
actually be open on Shabbat andstill be kosher, which is just
even more incredible, becausewho doesn't want more kosher
food available on Saturdays?
But to have it be people who,whose whose stories start in

(01:40:57):
India and are bringing it here.
It's just it's.
It's incredible to see howexpansive and just beautiful
Judaism is wherever it finds ahome.
And all the music was sosimilar that that's what's funny
.
Today they, they sing a lot ofthe music that we do.
I couldn't really figure outwhy, and I would ask questions.

(01:41:18):
I was like, you know, was thismy assumption?
Coming from the West and beinga white person was okay.
This must be considered morelegitimate and you have either
subconsciously taken this on orit's been forced on you, um, and
I don't think that's the case.

(01:41:31):
It sounds like when folks there travel they pick stuff up
and they like yes.

And so they're only doing things they love and
I'm just like, okay, that'sthat's the best.
Um, but that's something Iwould love to study and be more
involved in the community andlearn about.
My only Shabbat experiencesthere were with the traditional
community who didn't useinstruments.
Okay, and so it was.
Um, that was exactly what I waslooking for and was very
curious about.
I wanted to see how theparticularities of Indian music,

(01:42:01):
you know, for example, usingsomething like a shruti box
that's going to get thatbeautiful drone sound going
throughout a whole piece and youcan hear how you move tonally
through a piece, even with thisone note being like this
incredible acoustic hum you feelthrough your body.

(01:42:23):
But they don't use that.
Yeah, On Shabbat they were,they were observant and didn't.
For those of you that you think, are more observant and didn't.

For those of you that don't know, you're not,
technically I don't even.
This is a weird way to sayyou're not supposed to use
musical instruments on Shabbat.
However, I love services withmusic, so I'm a little biased in
regards to the observancy ofthat.

Well, it comes from a prohibition of changing a
string.
You're not allowed to do therepairing act that would have
been like part of creation.
So, like you can't play a liaror a guitar today, because if
you broke a string you might beinclined to change.

I thought it specifically had to do with the
act of playing the instruments,not the pairing.
That's very interesting.
It's presented that way.

And yet, if we look at the Psalms, we played
all the instruments in thetemple, like worship required
choruses and instruments, andall of this it became when we
started, like after thedestruction of the temple.
We wanted to make sure we werenever transgressing any of the
commitments, and so we builtfences around them.

(01:43:23):
So it's not that climbing atree is forbidden on Shabbat,
it's that breaking a twig isforbidden, and so to avoid
breaking a twig, you cannotclimb a tree.
This is the same way.
So to make sure that you're notrepairing something, you can't
play the instrument, because ifyou puncture the drum, you might
want to go tan some hide andrefashion your drum.

You might it's which clearly we would be doing
in 2023.

I'm like what makes you think I wouldn't have
a whole arsenal of instruments?
I was like, oh, okay, we brokea string.
All right, picking up the-.
Here's another guitar, here wego.
It's like the.

Olympic skiers take like 30 pairs of skis.

Exactly.

It's like I have 15 guitars just waiting on the
Bima for me.

I mean, there are two guitars just in this
room and I don't lead servicesin here, so we would be well
covered.

I learned something new every time I
talked to somebody.
I love that.
I because I thought it wasliterally just the playing of
the music.

Yeah, and I mean there might be another
interpretation too, but the likethe prohibition comes from the.
What would you do because ofthis?
And so if you eliminate that,and now that that is such an
ingrained thing culturally,you'd have a whole bunch of
people who'd be extremely turnedoff by music on Shabbat, and so

(01:44:39):
it would be like earthshattering.
You know, when we in seminarythe year in Israel, the
Cantorial and rabbinicalstudents lead a service in
Jerusalem and for a long time itwas the only high holiday
service in the country where youwould have someone playing
piano and we had instruments,and so people would come as

(01:44:59):
guests for the novelty, peoplewho had never in their lives
been to synagogue, and then alsovery traditional people would
come because they'd be like whatdo you mean?
What do you mean?
There it's Yom Kippur, you canlie on the street.
What do you mean?
Someone over here is playingpiano, Like this doesn't make
sense with our culturalunderstanding of what this day

(01:45:21):
means.
And so, like I totally, totallyunderstand that, but I
personally and this is going tosound mean I'm so bored when
there is no musical instruments.

I remember because I grew up in a conservative
synagogue people with pitchpipes and I was like I was the
first to suppose for that, and Iwas also in the children's
choir and I was like this isweird.
Yeah, I like music.

You have to be like virtuosic to be singers who
don't need music.

It's also harder to sing.

It's much harder .

You know, and I feel like you know, these people
have like perfect pitch thatthey were just always
magnificent singers with nomusic.

No.

No no.

The short answer is no, and that's why there's
like the congregational slidethings just change pitch slowly,
slowly, slowly, slowly.
But also, if no one's recording, no, it's true.

It's always like when.
It's like when a group ofpeople sing happy birthday.
It's like pick a note, pick akey, pick a key, and then people
will just change.

Yep, and I'm always like naively hoping that
everyone's just going tocoalesce around one of the keys.

Don't want another note I do like when people in
the congregation naturallyharmonize with each other which
I really like.

That is a treat.

There's a couple of prayers where that just
automatically happens and I lovethose moments.
But yeah, I really enjoy themusical aspect.

Oh yeah.

Did your husband move with you to Jerusalem?

Yep, he took that plunge and he got a job at
the library of the seminarybefore I was officially accepted
.
Oh.
Now, because he knew that.
You know we've been stillneeding to be paying for food,
yeah.
So yeah, I mean he was a and isstill just big time go getter
who made all that possible.

I love that you had that support.
I feel like, especially if youhadn't spent time out of the
country, that could be a veryit's a very different lifestyle
and because you're in the middleof all of that, it would be a
little, it could be a littleisolating, especially because
it's the first year and youdon't necessarily know anybody
going there.

And it was such a sinkerswim moment for me
because, like my first attemptat college before the
singer-songwriter era, was sucha objective failure that I was,
you know, just terrified ofputting all of my eggs in one
basket and then go into theMiddle East Speaking a language

(01:47:43):
that I'd only learned for a yearand doing that and he
sacrificed a lot to come with me.
He put his own stuff on hold towork in a library to help pay
for groceries while I wasstudying in Jerusalem.
And then he did the same thing.
You got a job in New Yorkbefore I even started school so

(01:48:08):
that we could pay rent and doour thing.
It wouldn't be here without him.

It's so great to have such a supportive partner,
especially when it's especiallywhen it's something you know.
It's not like you were goingthrough medical school or law
school where there wasnecessarily going to be a big
payoff.

Yeah, yeah, like security, for sure, clearly
infamously overpaid, obviously.

So there is a conservative synagogue in Los
Angeles, which I will not namenames, where someone left a huge
endowment I don't know if he'sstill the head rabbi, but the
head rabbi made a milliondollars a year.
Wow, which like is insane.
It's insane.

It's like the part of me that, like screams
for ethics, is just like oh no,how could you?

And then the jealous part of me is just like
girl.
Making a million dollars a yearas a rabbi is.
I feel like it's almost likethe anti-clergy salary, like not
that, like you know yourCatholic priest, where you're
supposed to live in poverty, butit's like you shouldn't be
making a million dollars a year.
Though to that congregation.

(01:49:10):
Maybe they are worth a milliondollars a year.
You?

know I like to think that I'm worth a billion,
but part of that knowledge isknowing that I would never ask
for anything close.
It's true.

Is there anything else you want to talk about or
say, or any messages you havefor anybody who might be
listening?

Yeah, you know I use this corny metaphor all the
time about Judaism being abuffet, and what's so important
about conversations like this isjust that it's one more voice
out there that's saying you'rean active participant in your
own religious life and there'sno one way to do anything ever

(01:49:50):
in any tradition.
And the scariest part isdeciding that you are going to
try something.
And so if I could give onemessage to anybody listening,
it's try it, do something.
Do one thing, ask somebody youknow, go to a place.

It's interesting that you say that because I feel
like even things that are verytraditional in how I grew up,
like, for example, shabbat,sometimes it can feel like
imposter syndrome a little bityou know like lighting the
candles you're like, but I'm notlike super observant.
What do I have to do this?

So I feel like it's a very valid point For sure
, and you know the hard workafter you do it is figuring out
what in the world it means.
But that can come later.
You can figure out what itmeans and why you're doing it
along the way.
Just try the thing and if itdoesn't fit we've got more to
try on for you.

So this last portion of the show I kind of
equate it to the actor studio.
I even stole some of theirquestions.
It's just kind of like shortform questions that I ask all of
my guests so what is yourfavorite Yiddish word?
You can throw in Hebrew wordtoo, because I know you probably
know a lot of those.

Recently I've really loved the word spilkes.
Rabbi Deborah Goldberg taughtme that term when we were
talking about our two year oldsto kindergarten age kids she's
like, okay, do we need to standup and get the spilkes?

out, Spilkes out yeah.

And now that is like very much just how I feel
at the end of my work day.
Yeah, I'm always saying thatword in my head.

Yeah, what about a Hebrew word that you your?

favorite Hebrew word.
Oh, a favorite Hebrew word.
Oh wow, I don't want to soundbasic.

Sometimes things are basic for a reason.

You know, the first thing that comes to mind
is like Keef Kef, the brand of,like Israeli Kit Kat, that's so
fun.

It's called Keef Kef.

Yeah, I love that so much, I'm fun.

I love that.
What is your favorite Jewishholiday?

Oh, sukot, for sure.
Anytime you can like, build afort and sleep in it and eat
beautiful foods and decorate itLike that's my jam right there.

If you were to have a bar mitzvah today, what
would the theme of your party be?

You know, I think it would have to be Lady
Gaga, like I'm thinking like upuntil art pop.

That's very specific.

Like fame monster Cause, like I want to go
back to, like my high schooldays, and that would definitely
be my theme.
I want to come out and likejust a bunch of sparkly beadwork
.
Um, boosty a moment.

That's definitely a party I would want to go to.
Please invite me to this barmitzvah.

Well, god willing, coming soon to
congregation road of Shalom, thecantor's bar mitzvah, we'll see
.

Really, there's some talk, that's so that, okay,
we can splice this in.
So we never actually talkedabout this.
So did you have like a actualbar mitzvah after you converted?

No, no.
After I converted, the nextthing that was slated for my
congregation was adultconfirmation.
Okay, so I did that instead andit was amazing, um, but I have
promised all of my students andthere I've had like 90 benign
mitzvah at this point and I'vepromised them that I will do one
as well on that very uh,intimidating Bima, and I might

(01:53:23):
even wear heels in honor of allof our amazing bonot mitzvah who
can carry the Torah that way.

So we'll see, that's the legitimate thing, and
I was reading something onInstagram about the myth of the
congregation having to fast for40 days as a Torah gets dropped.
Yeah, that's not a real thing,but I've heard that some
congregations they will split upthe fast, so it ends up being
that people don't fastindividually for 40 days, but
it's 40 days collectively, whichit's very terrifying.

(01:53:51):
Every time I would have to holdthe Torah, it's really
terrifying.
So I was happy to know thatthat's not like a real thing
where I would cause people tostarve to death if I dropped it.

It makes me double.
It makes me rethink my offcolor joke at rehearsals when I
tell the kid like okay, uh, no,don't drop the Torah, but don't
worry, if you do, I'm notfasting, I'm going to make all
of your guests, so that's sofunny.

Well, if, if, when you do have your bar mitzvah, I
will be there for the serviceand I will throw candy at you if
you're, though there's somepeople who don't like that, the
candy throwing thing.
So, going back to our questions, what profession other than
your own would you want toattempt?

Uh, for a long time I thought I wanted to be a
senator.
Oh really, and I'm still.
You know, I love politics, I'ma news junkie and I would still
love to like give some sort ofpublic service um thing like
that a shot.
But I don't know.
I think I found something whereI get to more talk about the

(01:54:52):
joy and fix society in spiritualways.
Um, but yeah, that always.
That always appealed to me.
I love the idea of working onlegislation and affecting change
, but the demands were a littlebit different and I don't really
want to be a lawyer.

No, no, no it's.
I can't imagine being apolitician.
It's just constant Everything.
Oh yeah.
All right.
So our last one is if heaven isreal and God is there to
welcome you, what would you liketo hear them say?

Oh, what a fun question.
Um, my hope is that, just likesome of my favorite songs from
my childhood start playing, um,and God just says, hey, there's
a great taco bar in the back, uh, and here is a terrific dirty
martini, uh, and we go fromthere and it's just moment, my

(01:55:45):
moment.

I think yours is probably the most my favorite
answer, that we've gotten tothat so far, because I do
honestly like the true musicfrom your childhood, like I love
the idea of being like welcomedwith this therapeutic,
emotional music that you feelcalm and the two doesn't love a
taco bar.

I know I mean.
The crazy thing is the albumwould be jagged little pills, so
I'm not sure how calming thatis.

Not.
I mean not therapeuticnostalgic more than therapeutic
90s apathetic, you know, rock.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
This has been Nicole withShebrew in the City.

I think it's time we found a way back home.
You lose so many things you loveas you grow.
I miss the days when I was justa kid.
My fear became my shadow.
I swear it did.

(01:56:49):
Wherever is your heart?
I call home.
Wherever is your heart, I callhome.
Though your feet may take youfar from me, I know Wherever is

(01:57:11):
your heart.
I call home.
You made me feel like I wasalways falling Down without a
place to land, somewhere in thedistance.

(01:57:34):
I heard you calling.
We heard so bad, so let go ofyour hand.
I call home.

(01:57:55):
your heart.
I call home.
Woo, even when your high canget low, even when your friends

(01:58:20):
you love is still alone, wealways find the darkest place to
go.
God, forgive our minds.
We were born to roam.
One, two, three.
I call home.

(01:58:43):
your heart.
I call home.
Oh God, forgive my mind.

(01:59:08):
Oh God, forgive my mind when Icome home.
When I come home, oh God,forgive my mind.
There's a road that's long andwinding and hollers home, I'm
calling home.
Oh God, forgive my mind.

(01:59:33):
Oh God, forgive my mind when Icome home.
When I come home, oh God,forgive my mind.
Oh God, forgive my mind when Icome home, to road of Charlotte.

(01:59:58):
your heart.
I call home.

(02:00:23):
your heart, I call home.
Thank you.

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"I Found Love" - An Interview with Cantor Stefano Iacono

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}"I Found Love" - An Interview with Cantor Stefano Iacono