December 9, 2024 • 54 mins
Uncover the strategies to maintain intimacy amidst the whirlwind of parenthood with Dr. Logan Levkov, who offers salient advice on nurturing closeness even when life's demands seem insurmountable. Learn how to transform the routine chore of scheduled sex into a fulfilling experience and explore alternative acts of pleasure that keep the spark alive. As we navigate the challenges of conceiving and parenting, discover the magic of creating a distraction-free sanctuary and why a touch of intimacy can be the key to better days.
Our episode takes a turn into broader societal conversations, focusing on the profound impacts of the Me Too movement and the repeal of Roe v. Wade on sexual health education. Through honest dialogue, we address the evolving landscape of consent and mutual respect, emphasizing the need for open communication in relationships. Additionally, we examine the unique intersections of sex, Judaism, and stereotypes, challenging media portrayals and exploring the dynamics of Jewish practices.
In a heartfelt reflection on Jewish identity and resilience, we tackle complex narratives, from confronting antisemitism to embracing Jewish womanhood in modern society. Through humor and creativity, we talk about personal experiences from her trips to Israel that reveal the strength and hope found in community, even amidst adversity. With a mix of cultural insights and personal stories, this episode promises a rich exploration filled with honesty and inspiration.
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Episode Transcript
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Nicole Kelly (00:02):
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So this is part two of myinterview with dr logan levkov.
(00:36):
I hope you enjoy it.
So we've noticed that when youare trying to conceive,
sometimes sex can be like aterrible.
Logan Levkoff (00:52):
It can be terrible.
It's terrible.
There's a lot of pressure,there's it is.
Nicole Kelly (00:56):
It's terrible.
There's a lot of pressurethere's, you know, there, there
it's just, it's like scheduledtoo, which is nobody wants to be
like okay, well, these are thedays we need to have sex, and I
feel like that's something thatI'm curious about.
If there's a couple who istrying to conceive, especially
if you're having fertilityproblems, you know, and it's
like a year in and you know,because a lot of couples they
(01:19):
try to have sex, you know likenaturally conceive for more than
a year before the start offertility treatments.
What's your advice for thesepeople, because it can be very
difficult.
Logan Levkoff (01:32):
Sex, goal-oriented sex for the
purpose of conception is brutal.
It is a chore, it feels like ajob.
It does not feel anything likea sexual, intimate, pleasurable
experience.
So first thing to know is don'tfeel guilty if that is your
experience, because that's whatmost people are experiencing,
(01:56):
but no one likes to talk aboutit, right?
I think the other piece of itis we need to think about what
are the little things we can doto make it feel more intimate.
By the way, having pleasure likereal pleasure is a part of that
, right.
There's no reason why you can't, and it doesn't necessarily
have to be an orgasm, but itcertainly could be, or anything
(02:18):
leading up to it.
It should still be somethingthat you enjoy and, by the way,
that kind of relaxation alsohelps everything too, right.
So there is that, or the way inwhich you set up your room.
I always laugh and it's sosilly, but you know what's
(02:39):
really not sexy when you arehaving some kind of sexual
experience.
You turn over and in youreyeline is like a picture of
your family or religiousiconography or your kids Like
that's miserable right.
So there are things we can do tocreate environments around us
that at least make it feelslightly sexier for lack of a
(03:00):
better word instead of like aninstitutional job.
Nicole Kelly (03:03):
Yeah, Is that also your advice to parents you know
, who aren't trying to conceive,but try and keep an active sex
life?
Like don't have a picture ofyour, of your two year old, next
to your bed, or maybe yourgrandmother or you know a cross
or whatever your religiousaffiliation is on the wall.
Logan Levkoff (03:20):
Yeah, I think in general, like, look, I am never
going to be that sexualityprofessional that says, take
your TV out of your bedroombecause I love my TV in my
bedroom and I will never take itout.
I'm sorry, beg, scream,whatever.
It's never coming out of mybedroom, I love it.
So that's my, I mean my, guiltypleasure.
But yeah, I mean, if you're,how sexy are you going to feel
(03:43):
if you're looking at yourparents Like you're how, how
sexy are you going to feel ifyou're looking at your parents
like you're sitting up, someoneis on top of you or vice versa,
and you're like looking at yourin-laws, like that's not, like
that's not really.
No, really exciting, no, it'snot.
Yeah, is there other than?
Nicole Kelly (03:57):
other than taking away the pictures from your
in-laws?
What advice do you have forparents, especially of young
children, when you're exhaustedall the time and sometimes kids
are sleeping in your bed and youknow how to keep an active sex
life with that?
Logan Levkoff (04:15):
What would be your advice?
There are a lot of differentsex acts that still end in
pleasure.
That don't have to be, you know, sexual intercourse if you
don't have time or the space forit, because someone is sleeping
between you.
There is the most boring sayingin the sex ed relationship
space, which is the concept ofscheduling sex, scheduling a
date night.
It is so painfully boring andhorrific as a concept.
(04:38):
However, the reason why everyonetells you it is because it
works, because you are activelyputting aside time.
This is going to be the.
This is going to be the timethat is going to be for us.
And also, I do think that evenwhen you're tired and I'm not
saying that we should give in toeach other's needs all the time
(04:59):
However, a little bit ofintimacy and pleasure like
begets more, like it winds upbeing really good.
So, yeah, maybe one day youwake up 20 minutes earlier, you
know, and fool around before thealarm like your real alarm
clock and, yes, will you betired?
Yes, you probably will be, butwithin five minutes you will be
(05:21):
a hell of a lot less tired and ahell of a lot more aroused, and
it will feel great for the restof your week.
Nicole Kelly (05:25):
And probably have a better day in the long run.
Logan Levkoff (05:28):
Yes.
Nicole Kelly (05:29):
Yes, yes, so this is not a pleasurable question,
really really pivoting.
How do you think the repeal ofRoe v Wade has affected the
necessity of sex education andsafe sex?
Because I love how outspokenyou are about being pro-choice
on your Instagram and I knowthat a lot of people are afraid
(05:51):
to talk about being pro-choicebecause of all the things out
there.
But how is you know in the pastI think it's been almost two
years now how has that affectedthe way that you talk about sex
and just sex education ingeneral?
Logan Levkoff (06:10):
Truth be told, it hasn't changed what.
It hasn't changed what I do,because my I believe that it's
important to have know all ofthe options and all of the
potential outcomes, regardlessof whether or not your state
gives you the right to bodilyautonomy.
So my information that I impartdoesn't change.
(06:32):
However, I do have lots ofconversations these days around
how current events and lawsimpact people's sexual health,
and that's an importantconversation to have.
So, depending on where you liveand, by the way, we know what's
happening in Alabama- now withfertilized embryos being people
(06:52):
right.
So those are great conversationsbecause it starts getting young
people to think not just thinkabout what things mean, but
choices they make in the future.
What does that mean for them asan individual?
What would that mean in apartnership?
What would it mean if they wentto college in another state?
So there are lots of criticalthinking skills that can come
out of talking about politicalissues that I find highly
(07:15):
problematic.
So I think that while theinformation I impart you know
just my general sex edinformation doesn't change I
guess I'll tweak my answer alittle bit it has provided me
opportunities to get people tothink about how changing laws
impact sexual health, how wecan't say that sexual health
(07:37):
isn't political, because thereare decisions that get made all
of the time that impact what youdo and how you do it and your
access to things, even if youhad no say over it.
So that's an important skillfor people to develop.
Nicole Kelly (07:50):
Do you think kind of on the flip side of that, the
Me Too movement has affectedthe way people talk about sex?
Logan Levkoff (07:59):
I mean, I have to tell you these days I'm very
angry with the Me Too movementbecause it seems to be Me Too is
only important unless you areIsraeli.
Nicole Kelly (08:07):
Yes, we're going to talk about that in a little
bit.
Okay so so, oh good.
So I mean I'm not a we'rehitting the hard questions here
because I I'm so glad, I'm soglad that we're we're having
this, but I just I rememberthere was kind of this, because
I see a whole slew of things onthe internet, after the Me Too
movement kind of happened, ofmen being like well, now I'm
(08:29):
afraid that any sort of sexualexperience I have with a woman,
she can turn around and say thatI didn't want it.
You know, I think that therewas kind of not that I
necessarily agree with that.
I feel like consent is superimportant and you can make
consent sexy if you want.
Logan Levkoff (08:52):
But I feel like it kind of changed the narrative
, especially, I think, maybe foryoung men, about sex, the
conversations around Me Too andconsent.
How Me Too changed our globalconversations is well, everyone
was talking about it.
Everyone was talking about itin high profile.
People were getting you know inhot water for doing things that
they've done for years.
Nicole Kelly (09:12):
Which were like not really secrets.
No, no, no, right, and therewere a lot of enablers in all of
those dynamics right.
Logan Levkoff (09:19):
Yeah, we're also responsible for creating those
cultures.
As sexuality educators, we arealways talking about consent and
the importance of having avoice and how to be the kind of
person that someone is willingto share their body with.
And so to me conversations if Iever hear someone say like, oh,
(09:40):
obviously someone is going tosay that something happened in
order to get a man in troubleand obviously that is rooted in
such misogyny it's horrific andI bristle at the thought.
But if you are the kind, if youare a standup partner who
values someone's voice, who asksthe right questions, who says
you know, I want to berespectful of your boundaries
(10:01):
and vice versa, tell me, tell mewhat you want and what you
don't want, and it's okay, nomatter what then you are
creating a dynamic where no oneis deliberately going to get you
into trouble because that'sjust a shitty like shitty.
People would do that regardlessof gender.
That's not a gender thing.
And if we're all honest andupfront about what we want and
(10:22):
what we don't want, then we'reactually breaking that cycle,
because for years, people didtalk about what they want.
They made assumptions and wentfor it and then found it after
Someone's like eh, we reallywasn't into that.
Nicole Kelly (10:38):
I think the idea of consent in the way that it is
today is also very new, becauseI feel, like you just kind of I
don't know, I'm trying tofigure out a way to say this
like of my generation, the ideaof being like really honest
about what you wanted and whatyou weren't comfortable with was
not something that was reallyadvocated for, if that makes any
(11:01):
sense.
Like you know, you were justkind of like, well, I guess this
is the way that you know this,this is how this works, so
that's what you're you're you'resupposed to do, and I feel like
there was a pressure to dothings.
So, I mean, I have, I havemajor issues with the movement
as well for various reasons, butI think what did kind of come
from the conversation was a, asolidarity between women,
(11:22):
realizing that a lot of us havehad sexual experience or
unwanted sexual attention, andnot making us feel alone, but
also, you know, the idea of of,uh, consent and also like
preventing mixed messages,because if you're like, hey, I'm
not cool with this, like it'sagain, if you have a respectful
partner, they're gonna be likeokay, you know right, right, I
(11:44):
mean, a lot of theseconversations wind up being
litmus tests for whether or notsomeone is a worthy sexual
partner.
Logan Levkoff (11:50):
Right, and sometimes and I'm outside of the
Me Too movement we I think this, we in general need to do a
better job at trusting our gut,you know, and when someone like
is giving us clues that maybethey're not really concerned
about our pleasure, what we want, instead of sickly crossing our
fingers like maybe it'll workout, Maybe we should just
(12:11):
realize ah, signs are notpointing in the right direction.
I think I'm going to go meetsomeone else.
Nicole Kelly (12:17):
Yeah, which I think you need to.
You need to know that you cando and it can be, you know,
appropriate to do that.
Logan Levkoff (12:26):
So let's talk Absolutely.
And again I would just say thisI think, similarly there are
also experiences that are justkind of gray, for lack of a
better term.
You know experiences where,like, maybe you didn't really
love it, but you didn't saysomething negative, the other
person you're not really surewas into it too, Like not.
(12:47):
there are also experiences thatare not wonderful Right, that
are not necessarily consentexperiences, as much as they are
just bad experience bad sexualexperiences, and also that
requires speaking up to to saywhat you liked and what you
didn't like, right, or whyyou're not seeing someone else
again.
I think that's the problem isthat we do a lot of, we want to
(13:10):
do a lot of mind reading wherewe think we're just going to
like miraculously know what doesthis person want, what are they
not?
What feels good, what doesn'tfeel good?
Are they going to let me knowif something hurts?
And inevitably people don't,because unless we feel empowered
to advocate for ourselves,we're going to say nothing.
So my take on it is always havethose tough conversations,
(13:33):
acknowledge and be upfront aboutthe fact that this conversation
is hard for me to have, but Ilike you enough and there are
things I'd like to do with you,so I'm going to have it.
Nicole Kelly (13:42):
So let's talk about sex within Judaism.
So I know from my limitedknowledge of kind of sex and
physical touch within theOrthodox community they have
very specific rules regardingsex and physical touch.
So a lot of for those of youthat don't know a lot of
Orthodox Jews will not touchpeople of the opposite sex who
they aren't directly related tountil they're married.
(14:03):
And then, even when they aremarried, there are these family
I think they call them likefamily purity laws, where if a
woman is menstruating or hasjust finished menstruating,
husband and wife won't toucheach other.
And one of I don't want to saythe reasons they say for that is
to prepare couples for a timewhen intimacy isn't like a
(14:24):
hallmark of their relationship.
So it kind of, I guess, getsthem ready for when they're not
having sex, which I don't.
I see your face.
You're like um, are there?
Is there legitimately any meritin that?
Or is this just kind of whatthey've decided?
That is what they're going todo?
Logan Levkoff (14:50):
decided.
That is what they're going todo.
I have to be honest, I'm not anexpert in Orthodox Judaism, so
I'm the wrong person to offerprofessional guidance in
communities whose sexual valuesmight be different than mine.
That being said, I do thinkthat there can be a lot of
excitement and eroticism inwaiting and building excitement
(15:15):
and having limited touch.
It's just not common for lotsof people, right?
But I can't say that someone'sexperience isn't going to be
highly erotic.
If they've, if they've had toavoid touch, I mean maybe it's
super hot and amazing.
Right, it's real.
I I would hope it would, yes tobe.
(15:36):
But again, this is why you know, when sexual issues emerge
within the orthodox community,there are some amazing, amazing
Orthodox sex therapists who areso well equipped and skilled in
navigating these issues.
Because, obviously, the lensthrough which I see it is a very
secularized, sex-empowered,sex-forward lens, so my version
(16:03):
is going to be very skewed.
Nicole Kelly (16:04):
Is this kind of sex therapist within the
Orthodox community a newer thing?
I would, as I'm assuming it's.
Women are talking to women andmen are talking to men.
Logan Levkoff (16:15):
I mean all the most of the people I know are
are women.
Um, and they're amazing.
I mean there there is an entirecommunity of Orthodox sexuality
therapists.
Really, I mean, yeah, it isquite extraordinary because
there are complexities anddynamics within Orthodox
(16:39):
partnerships that are not likethe average you know
relationship that we talk abouthere.
Nicole Kelly (16:46):
It's very true.
So, as two Jewish women, Ithink we've probably been very
aware that Jewish women in mediaare often depicted as prudish
and non-sexual beings.
Why do you think this is, andwhat can we as Jewish women do
to break this stereotype in oureveryday life?
(17:06):
Because I feel like there's,you know, like a great show that
was really great about kind ofbreaking the stereotype was
Marvelous, mrs Maisel.
But that's really the only timeI've seen an example of an
attractive young woman who isJewish showing that she likes
sex or was sexual.
I really can't think of anyother, you know media where a
(17:30):
woman's presented as Jewish andas a sexual person.
Logan Levkoff (17:35):
There's no doubt that the character or sorry, the
caricature of Jewish women isoften overbearing, neurotic,
helicoptering all things to allpeople, but not necessarily
sexual, and it's frustrating.
It's frustrating because it'sactually not at all indicative
(17:56):
of a single Jewish woman I know.
However, it was very much myunderstanding on some of those
old comics, those old images,that old, you know, yiddish
theater.
That's where some of that hadcome from and, by the way, there
is a place for that.
But I think there's also anopportunity for us to reclaim
what sexual Jewish woman lookslike, simply by existing in our
(18:19):
natural state, which is sexualbeing, state, which is sexual
being, and recognizing thatwe're not separating our Judaism
from our sexual side.
People laugh all of the time.
I absolutely do what I do for aliving because it is rooted in
my Jewish values, my belief inpleasure and equity and
(18:41):
education and the intimacy ofrelationships Like that's all of
them and the belief thateveryone has the right to live
and thrive with dignity Likethose are all my Jewish values
too.
So I think we just need to do abetter job at saying like I am
a proud sexual Jewish woman andI don't resemble the stereotypes
(19:04):
, so maybe the stereotypes areinaccurate.
Nicole Kelly (19:08):
So you talked about earlier about being very
proudly Jewish, and I think thisis something that, especially
recently, a lot of people whoare very active on social media
have, I don't want to say,struggled with, but there's a
lot of bad stuff out there.
So what are some of thechallenges that you face as a
publicly Jewish woman who youknow is well known within your
(19:31):
industry and just in general,because we haven't talked about
you know you being on numeroustelevision shows and things like
that, but what are the kind ofthe struggles of that,
especially since October 7th,that you faced in being Jewish
in general and pro-Israel?
Logan Levkoff (19:47):
And, by the way, even like pro, like there's no
other place.
People use words pro or anti.
Nicole Kelly (19:51):
I know it's so absurd right.
Yeah.
Logan Levkoff (19:56):
I am a proud Zionist.
Zionism is literally rooted ineverything that I do.
Zionism is theself-determination movement for
Jews in our ancestral homeland.
Everything that I do Zionism isthe self-determination movement
for Jews in our ancestralhomeland.
It is a radical decolonizationproject and it is bastardized
all the time by people who knownothing about Jews and nothing
about Israel or the history.
So there's that.
That's my first blanketstatement.
Aggressive possibly, but that'sliterally where I'm living days
(20:20):
in aggression.
The challenges are both endlessand endless.
I am an expert in difficultconversations, as I shared early
on, like I cut my teeth talkingabout sex and sexuality as a
(20:44):
young person, not just online,but in TV and in person in
classes, and I was always usedto people writing horrible shit
about me because I talked aboutsex for a long time.
So I was used to it and I knewhow to deal with the adversity.
And, by the way, I'm probably alittle bit of an intellectual
(21:07):
masochist because I'm in thisspace.
I love the fight I do.
I was made for the fight,especially when I feel like I'm
right, which is most of the timeit's good to feel that you're
right.
Yeah, totally feel that you'reright.
Yeah, totally, but I neverwould have imagined that in 2024
(21:29):
, the difficult conversation Iwould have to have or encourage
people to have, would be aroundJudaism and Israel.
I would have you could havetold me that a million times
over.
I would have never believed it,never, never, never.
So the challenges I have todayare I mean, I get a lot of nasty
(21:52):
, horrible, like death wishingthings said about me pretty
regularly, but again, sometimesyou get used to it which is
pathetic, pathetic and yet true.
I mean they're not verycreative.
Nicole Kelly (22:05):
I have to say no, they're not or intelligent.
Logan Levkoff (22:09):
No, they don't know.
There's a lot of spelling andgrammatical problems.
They're like they use the samelines over and over again.
They're not really creative.
I feel like maybe I would givethem a little more credit if
they could come up withsomething new.
But I mean, an oven joke islike it's.
You know how 1940s really ishandled at this point.
Nicole Kelly (22:31):
I had someone say something like that to me on the
street and I was like, I mean,it was horrifying because I was
giving a tour at the time, butit's just like that's where
we're going with this.
Logan Levkoff (22:38):
Right.
So there's and, by the way, mymaking light of it isn't because
I don't think it's serious,it's just I don't know another
way to deal with it these daysbecause it's everywhere, because
if I let myself really wallowin some of it I don't think I'd
be able to get out of bed.
I mean, it's enough that theminute I wake up I put on armor
(23:01):
Mental, less physical, but likeI'm ready for a fight wherever I
go these days, whether it'sonline, whether it's having to
deal with some professor at mykid's schools that are saying
something horrible, or a kidthat calls them some horrible
name, or whether it's wonderingif the person sitting next to me
on the subway sees my mug andDavid and wants to kill me, like
(23:21):
all of that stuff.
Like I have armor on the minuteI wake up and it is a little
exhausting.
I'm not going to lie, but I tryto make it more bearable by
using a little bit of humor andgrace.
And so one of the things I'vedone is I've started to make
content using the horriblethings that people have said
about me, because it is my wayof controlling the narrative,
(23:44):
and also using humor and alittle bit of personality, and I
also wanted to use it and thiswas way before October 7th to
show my peers who told me I wascrazy when I said that
anti-Semitism was alive andkicking that.
No, actually it's very much hereand you don't have to look that
far to find it.
So October 7th unfortunatelyjust put a giant, giant
(24:08):
exclamation point a milliontimes over on all of the things
that I had been feeling, and itwas an atrocious wake-up call.
But, lesson learned, I got itLike I know who my friends are,
I know who my enemies are, Iknow who has spoken out, I know
who my friends are, I know whomy enemies are, I know who has
spoken out, I know who has saidnothing.
And I am and I'll use a wordthat people don't like using for
(24:32):
women, but I'm going to use itanyway I can be a relentless
bitch and you know what I'mgoing to remember I will never
forget and I will make sure youdon't forget either.
Nicole Kelly (24:43):
Good for you for kind of turning this around and
empowering yourself.
I'm not the kind of personbecause I don't have 12,000
followers on Instagram.
I have like less than 500 andI've started posting TikTok
videos and it's like amazing howthese people will find you and
they'll just start.
And I'm like I'm a nobody with.
I have no, really no socialmedia presence.
(25:04):
I'm just starting to grow itand it's amazing how they'll
find you and just start sayingthe craziest things.
It's like a full-time job forthem.
Logan Levkoff (25:14):
That's true.
You're not.
First of all, you're not.
No one is a nobody right Likeplatforms mean nothing,
literally mean nothing.
It's just to me, at the end ofthe day, regardless of what
platform it's on, I don't reallycare what people say in
response.
It is my way of creating my ownstory, my own online journal
for what I am experiencing atany given moment.
(25:35):
Whether anyone likes it ordoesn't like it, honestly, like
I don't care.
I do it because I feelcompelled to create a story.
That's my story and maybe if wechange the way we think about
it, then some of that stuff iseasier to navigate.
But I do acknowledge that in allof these years I have developed
a very thick skin because Ihave had to, but I didn't always
(25:55):
.
There were times and it wasn'treally during the.
It didn't really have to dowith Jew hatred or anti-Semitism
or whatever, whatever term wewant to use.
It was really when I was on aTV show.
I was on a show called Marriedat First Sight for the first
three seasons, yes, which seemslike a lifetime ago at this
(26:16):
point and a rumor, some horriblerumor about my fellow peer, my
professionals and I about ourethics, and it's because,
apparently, facts don't matter.
Nicole Kelly (26:29):
No one fact checks and definitions.
Words don't have definitionsanymore.
Logan Levkoff (26:34):
No, no.
So this rumor kind of likespread like wildfire and it
showed up in all of these placesand I was getting hundreds and
hundreds and hundreds ofmessages saying the most awful
things about me.
And the worst thing you couldsay about me back then was, you
know, was to question myprofessional integrity,
something I've worked soincredibly hard at and I was so
(26:56):
crushed.
And so my husband came home oneday and I was on the couch it
was like the middle of theafternoon.
I was wasted and sobbing, likeI had plowed through a couple of
cocktails.
I was like a Twitter open infront of me.
I was just like hysteric, justcrying, and he looked at me and,
very much to his credit, hesaid what's going on?
(27:16):
I said they're saying the mosthorrible things.
I was amassed.
And he said who and I think thename was some version of
Cupcake Lover 405.
And he's like whoa CupcakeLover?
Who is Cupcake Lover 405?
And I said I have absolutely noidea, but they're saying all
these terrible things.
(27:37):
He said logan, first of all, ifcupcake lover 405 met you on
the street, would they punch youin the face or would they ask
to take your picture?
And I had this moment and Ithought you know they're a fan
of the show.
Clearly I don't think theywould punch me in the face and
he's like, and this is whoyou're crying over.
(27:58):
And I said me in the face andhe's like, and this is who
you're crying over.
And I said, okay, so I thinkyou might be right.
I think you might be right.
And he took my phone away fromme for 24 hours till I, like,
pulled myself together and itchanged my perspective on
everything.
Now, that was when it was myprofessional integrity, my
Judaism and my very proudZionism, which I do think are
(28:22):
very linked.
I don't think you could reallyseparate the two, as much as
people would like to say you can.
I don't think you can, but Ifeel like that is a different,
deeply personal attack on me,one that I am fearless and very
thick-skinned over, because Iknow what that means.
Right, and that is something Iam willing to fight to the end
(28:42):
for.
That is not something I'm goingto be crying over.
The only time I cried with thatwas when I realized that my
field, the very progressivefield of sexuality education,
we're a group of Jew haters, butyou know most of the other
stuff.
I'm just, my claws are out andI'm ready, so I ready.
Nicole Kelly (29:00):
So I want to talk about what you just said,
because the reports and evensome of the video of the sexual
violence that took place onOctober 7th is horrifying and I
I've heard some stories Ihaven't watched any video
because I I don't think I'm inan emotional place to do that
and reportedly this is alsostill happening as well to the
(29:22):
hostages.
Do you think that people areignoring this or saying it's not
real because it's happening toJewish women?
Logan Levkoff (29:29):
Yes, yes, I do, I do.
I think that there isabsolutely no reason why we have
given credibility to everysingle person who has spoken up,
every single person, right, and, by the way, I'm not saying
that we shouldn't validatepeople's claims.
I'm not telling you that weshouldn't.
(29:50):
But there is evidence, a lot ofevidence.
There is testimony, there isdocumentation from the actual
people who perpetrated thecrimes, right, gleefully
engaging in what they are doing.
And yet people are still sayingI don't think it's true,
(30:11):
there's no evidence.
We would say this to no othergroup, you know, and at the end
of the day, the issue is I andI've said it before, this is
about Israel now, but it's notreally about Israel.
This is about Jews.
This is about Jews Because,honestly, people are too dumb to
know that there are otherpeople other than Jews living in
(30:31):
Israel and how diverse it is.
It's how it's a breathtakingtapestry of diverse populations.
But no one cares because it'scalled the Jewish state, right,
so people assume it's only onegroup of people.
But it is horrifying thelengths people will go to to
turn themselves and twistthemselves into pretzels to
(30:54):
justify their behavior, and wewould never do it with anyone
else.
And yet this is the mosthorrific documented acts of
depraved sexual violence weprobably have seen ever, ever,
ever, ever.
Nicole Kelly (31:09):
I think what's even more and you just mentioned
this crazy to me is not thepeople necessarily denying it,
but the people who are, like yousaid, justifying it, and I
think that's so much worse andit's just, it's just sickening,
like as a as a, not only like asa Jew, but like as a human
being.
It's like this whole, likeresistance is justified when
(31:30):
you're occupied.
Call I don't.
No, I don't think you know.
Raping a woman until her pelvicbones are broken and then
shooting her in the head isjustified in any circumstance.
Logan Levkoff (31:41):
Right.
And also, by the way, those bigwords people are using actually
are not relatable to thisconflict at all, which is
another piece of it.
But also, in what other groupwould anyone ever say that
that's okay, that rape is alegitimate war tactic?
Nicole Kelly (32:00):
It's not.
Logan Levkoff (32:00):
We would never say, we would never.
I know like that's, we wouldnever.
No one would say it for anyoneelse, for anyone else.
And there is a sense of oh no,it's not a sense, it's just a
real feeling.
For me, I feel betrayed onlevels that I did not feel like
I could possibly be betrayed onby professionals in my community
(32:22):
.
I mean my community, myprofessional community is all
about believing people andconsent and bodily autonomy and
talking about, you know, healthyrelationships and like all of
the things that what happened onOctober 7th is literally
antithetical to at its core.
And yet my field is eerilysilent.
(32:43):
There's a lot of moralequivalencies and posturing and
you know where is the evidence.
And to me, this is a betrayal.
It is.
You know, I'm not one of thosepeople who believes like when
someone says words are violence,who believes like when someone
says words are violence.
But like this in this case,this is like a violent attack on
me, when you can't bringyourself to condemn something
(33:06):
because of who it happened to.
But again, if I'm going to be alittle snarky and which is
often how I have to be now inorder to navigate some of the
feelings I have, my take on, itis okay.
Lesson learned Good.
You just told me who you were.
Now I know I would much ratherknow who you are face to face
(33:27):
than have you stab me in theback.
Nicole Kelly (33:29):
Do you think that part of the reason that people
are thinking this is justifiedis because there's this
narrative that Jews are whiteand which is we know is not true
?
I love my favorite thing onInstagram is like people who are
black and Jewish just likelaughing at the white colonizer
thing.
Do you think that's part of it?
Even though, like, I'veliterally seen pictures of
hostages and like these peopleare of Mizrahi descent, like is
(33:51):
that where this is coming from?
Logan Levkoff (33:54):
A lot of it.
So I think that, first of all,the average person has no idea
who Jews are.
No idea, they think we aresolely a faith and not realizing
that we were a faith.
Nicole Kelly (34:04):
Last of all of the categories, we were a faith,
it's true, I'm taking a Jewishhistory class now and that is
like a big question is like iswhen did Judaism become a
religion?
Like what is a religion?
And you know all of thesethings.
So this is this is my, my, my P, my my, my professor, with a P
June, june's history says thesame thing, so it's very true.
Logan Levkoff (34:23):
Yeah, I mean, we were a tribe, we're an ethnicity
, we are people, we are also afaith.
We cross all modern racialcategories and other ethnic
categories.
It's, it's so silly and thepeople who you know think of us
as being solely white.
I mean, first of all, couldn'tlocate Israel on a map if their
life depended on it.
Right, wouldn't know thedifference between, like if you
(34:46):
saw an Israeli, from aPalestinian to a Druze, like
Bedouin, would have no,literally no idea, couldn't tell
the difference between anyone.
But we've created this weirdbinary system of either you are
oppressed or the oppressor.
Right, you are a victim or youare a victimizer.
And because the stereotypeshere have been Jews that look
like us, as opposed to showingthe complexity and the diversity
(35:08):
within Judaism, you know,people think that we're all,
that Israelis and Jews are allwhite, despite the fact that you
know we seem not to be whiteenough for certain groups of
people.
Nicole Kelly (35:20):
Yeah, Like Nazis, we're white.
Logan Levkoff (35:22):
When it's convenient, we're the only
people who are too white forsome right on the left, not
white enough for people on theright.
And so here we exist in thisweird space where we are like
conditionally white sometimes,but even saying that erases all
of the people who don't looklike us, who are Jewish, and
there are plenty and plenty andplenty of those.
So I think this is a muchdeeper problem.
(35:43):
I think this is aninstitutional problem, this is
an educational problem, and Idon't think it's getting solved
anytime soon.
I think that what's happeningin Israel is just the beginning.
I think this is a, this is a.
That's the frontline for now,but I think that what we are all
going to have to deal with here, and what our kids are going to
have to deal with and navigate,is a whole other type of war.
(36:06):
It's scary and we should beprepared for it.
Nicole Kelly (36:08):
I mean, you have a son in college, like I.
I would be terrified if mychild was in college right now
and I was trying to explain tomy sister cause she wasn't
unaware.
She was unaware of what wasgoing on she was here last week
of the crazy things that arehappening on campuses.
I mean, I'd be terrified,especially with some of the
schools we mentioned, which arelauded as some of the greatest
(36:29):
educational institutions in theentire world.
The narrative that's goingaround and the things that I
hear some public school teachersare saying in class or showing
maps that have Palestine, andit's just like I feel like I'm
living in a world where, likeyou said, facts aren't facts and
words don't have definition.
I got one of my collegeroommates got.
(36:50):
I like I had to unfriend her onFacebook because she was trying
to say well, I feel like it'san apartheid and I was like
feelings are not facts.
And here is my argument showingyou it's not that and also
that's not real.
And I feel like I'd love, I'dlove to have like a legitimate,
intelligent conversation withsomebody who has an opposing
view, but I haven't been able todo that because they keep
(37:11):
coming up with these liketalking points that I can
disprove within two seconds, butthey're like but I feel this
and it's like, well, I feel likeI should be a millionaire, but
that doesn't mean that it's real.
You know what I mean, Right?
Logan Levkoff (37:22):
You can feel however you want, but the I mean
, if you stepped foot in therefor a hot minute, you would see
that like can't call itapartheid.
Nicole Kelly (37:33):
Yeah, it's not.
Logan Levkoff (37:33):
I saw someone.
Nicole Kelly (37:35):
I saw someone that was like I'm driving past the
Islamic art museum in myapartheid state on the way to
work and I was like I see you,sir, I see you, I see you.
Logan Levkoff (37:45):
I just, I do, I do.
I do appreciate the Jewish humora little bit that's come out of
this, because people are, youknow, jews are really great
about using humor as a healingsource.
But we need but.
But here's the thing we need to, because then all we would be
doing is wallowing in traumaindefinitely, and we can't, we
can't live like that.
So you know that's, we have tofind strategies to manage it.
(38:07):
And again, that doesn't mean we, we, we don't feel it, but but
sometimes, at least within ourown, within our own tribe, we
use humor, because otherwisewe're going to sit and cry to
each other, and that's, that's areally hard thing.
I mean, yes, I have a freshmanand a freshman, so in college
and in high school, but my kidhas spent all of high school
(38:31):
fighting this stuff.
So, quite frankly, if anyonewas prepared for college campus,
it was him, far better preparedthan most people were, and
that's a horrifying thing to saythat he honed his skills on
fighting anti-Semitism in highschool.
But he did, but he did.
And also, I think the otherpiece of it that people don't
always realize is, if you wantto raise and there are a lot of
different ways to be a fighter,right, some people like to be
(38:51):
lightning rods.
Some people like to work behindthe scenes.
They're equally important.
Jobs right, they're equallyimportant.
Not everyone has to be me, norshould be me, to be honest.
There are people who do otherthings far better.
But I would say all of the onlyreason we and our young people
(39:13):
can be fighters, in whatevercapacity they choose to fight,
is when they know that theadults in their life have their
back.
That's the biggest thing.
The reason my kids have beenable to go toe-to-toe with
people, with teachers, withprofessors, with administrators
is because they knew that theirfamily had their back.
And if something happened, ifthey got in trouble, if they got
expelled, if they got into afight, I was going to make it an
(39:34):
international incident and Istill would right, because I'm
not letting it go.
This is too important and toomany people spend too much time
putting their heads down in thesand saying it's not so bad,
don't make waves.
It's only one comment, it wasnever only going to be one
comment.
So here's where we are.
What do we do with that?
Nicole Kelly (39:55):
It's my mother-in-law calls it being a
mama bear or a lion being veryprotective of your children, and
it's nice to know that theyhave that support, because I
feel, like some, I want to bethe kind of mother that when my
daughter gets in a troubledsituation, she's not going to
think I'm scared, what my mom'sgoing to think, but I need to
(40:17):
call my mom because she'll knowwhat to do, and I feel like that
goes exactly with what you'resaying, that you have your kids
back.
Logan Levkoff (40:24):
So yeah and, by the way, I love you I use that
phrase all the time that I amlike a.
I am like a warrior lioness,like just and not like in a
hovering way.
But you know, if you cross thecore values, or we're going to
have an issue.
We're going to have an issue.
My young people will deal withit first, but if they, if they
(40:45):
choose to bring me in, all betsare off, that's fair, that's
fair.
Nicole Kelly (40:51):
So I can't make any guarantees.
So while we were talking I kindof like bullet pointed
something that I hadn't thoughtabout.
But have you seen the show onNetflix, Big Mouth?
Yes, what do you think about?
Logan Levkoff (41:03):
Big Mouth.
Nicole Kelly (41:04):
I feel like sometimes it can be even a
little over the top, for youknow, just in general, but I
think in a lot of but I think ina lot of ways it's a very
honest depiction of what it'slike to be a teenager.
Logan Levkoff (41:18):
So I think in so many ways it is so brilliant.
It's how we as adults wouldlook, exactly how we as adults
would look back on adolescence,with all of the complexities and
the hideous moments and thehysterical moments, and then, of
course, it is also very overthe top.
So I have a lot of students,teenage students, who watch Big
(41:39):
Mouth, who come with all sortsof information that isn't always
accurate, and so my reminder tothem is always okay, listen,
you're going to watch whatyou're going to watch.
I just need you to know thatwhat you're seeing is not
entirely representative.
So if you have questions, Ithink you should come to me
first.
(41:59):
Yeah, so if you have questions,I think you should come to me
first.
Yeah, like, let's fact check,but look if it gets people
talking and if it gets ustalking right, because really
it's not designed for teens,it's designed for us as adults.
So if it reminds us of whatthose experiences were like and
it helps us have a conversationwith young people, then how
awesome is that.
Nicole Kelly (42:24):
I feel like a lot of it's stuff that I blocked out
and I'm like, oh, yeah, that,but with a musical number, which
is one of the things I loveabout that.
Logan Levkoff (42:34):
And it's totally fun.
I mean, and listen, I rememberI think it was the second
episode when Jessie gets herperiod and she's wearing white
shorts and someone has to getlike.
I remember those moments.
Those really like harrowingmoments where you think the
world is coming to an end, butbut it's really a huge part of
growing up, right, having thatmoment where you know you feel
exposed and vulnerable and haveto manage what, what, what, what
(42:56):
are my next steps?
That's a.
That's a big, I mean, that's abig part of resilience,
developing resilience too.
Nicole Kelly (43:01):
You were recently in Israel and I know from
looking at your social media yougo quite a bit, but I feel like
this was more of a differenttype of trip.
So what did you do when andwhen did you?
How recent was this and whatdid you do when you were there?
Logan Levkoff (43:16):
So I've actually been there twice since October
7th.
My last trip I came back fivedays ago.
I was there for 10 days and Iwas there for 17 days.
In December I was there for avolunteer mission for Jewish
National Fund, usa.
We were on two different trips,both volunteer missions, I feel
like in December we wereputting Band-Aids on things.
(43:40):
We were like temporarilyhelping.
We were doing all importantthings feeding soldiers, cooking
, doing agriculture, going tothe hospital, putting together
gift boxes, working with evacueefamilies.
This trip was a little different.
We were getting kibbutzim readyfor people to come back home,
(44:03):
ready for people to come backhome.
You know, cleaning up, doing.
You know the IDF has been there.
There have been four months ofweeds and mud and insects and
you know, also doing agriculture.
We were weeding onions.
We were working with theBedouin community in agriculture
.
There.
I painted a bomb shelter in anindoor playground in Sderot,
(44:24):
which was super meaningfulbecause the kids were coming
back to the community and neededa safe place.
So this felt heavy.
I'm not going to say it doesnot feel heavy, it feels very
heavy, but it feels likerebuilding is taking place.
But it felt it was a hugeprivilege to be there.
(44:44):
Each time I've been, everyoneis so surprised to see people
Americans there, and they are sograteful that we're there.
And my response is always whenthey ask, why are you here?
My response is always when theyask why are you here, I say it
feels important to be here.
But the truth is and I sharethis as well is that, selfishly,
(45:10):
I really should be thankingthem too, because it feels very
lonely being here lately andthat I needed to be there and
have my feet on the ground andmy hands in the dirt to feel my
people too, because at leastthere, you know, I don't put on
the armor the same way it's theone place I really feel like I
can breathe.
(45:32):
And so it's kind of like ashocking statement for a Jew
from New York City to say butbut that's really how I feel
these days, and I know I'm notthe only one, because I was
sitting yesterday at a coffeeshop talking to someone and kind
of filling them in on thecollege campus situation.
I was talking about our familyand a man was sitting next to us
who was a little older than meand he looked at me in the
(45:54):
middle of the conversation andsaid I'm so sorry to eavesdrop.
I'm so impressed and in awe bywhat you're doing and your
family and I just want to saythank you.
And the man literally like, wascrying, and I feel like that's
where a lot of us are right now.
We are all just about threeseconds away from bursting into
tears at any given moment.
So I was there to bear witness.
(46:17):
I was there to feel connectionand to feel like I was doing
something, because I felt so.
I mean, pardon the sex relatedword, but I was feeling so
impotent here for for so manyweeks.
Nicole Kelly (46:32):
I'm glad you were able to go and help and feel
hopefully a little bit betterabout everything.
Logan Levkoff (46:39):
Yes, yes, I mean I, I, I do it's, it's, it was
hard, it's hard to leave.
I mean there is a there's a lotof trauma.
There was.
There's incredible resilienceand there was a lot of I mean,
look, people still can't grieveyet, right, there are still 134
hostages.
Which is crazy to me, there isstill work going on.
Nicole Kelly (46:58):
It's, it's just it's.
I mean, I don't know aboutcause you're on the other side
of the park, but I'm on the Westside and I just I feel like I
walk past these posters everyday and I feel like I know these
people and it's become reallyand I know that's the whole
point of this but it's becomereally personal, like as a
mother, as a Jewish person andas a woman, especially because
(47:21):
that's a lot of who is stillthere and they say the reason
they're not releasing them isbecause they don't want them
talking about what's happened tothem.
Logan Levkoff (47:31):
Yeah, horrific, horrific, horrific things,
horrific things, and the factthat that's not the first
statement.
People say bring the hostageshome.
You know, that's the other.
I think when someone says to mehow do you have conversations
Like, how do you engage in ahealthy discourse around this
issue?
Sometimes you can't, because tome, if the first statement
(47:54):
isn't what happened was horrible, full stop period, the hostages
need to come home, full stopperiod, then there's nothing
else for us to talk about.
Nicole Kelly (48:06):
Well, it's a lack of humanity in my opinion and I
know that's like a reallysweeping statement but it is
Because I can still feel badabout the children and civilians
in Gaza, because I'm a humanbeing and I can feel multiple
things at once.
But if you're the kind ofperson who can't, it's a lack of
(48:26):
humanity in my opinion and it'sjust really sad to see so many
people who are so uneducated anddon't understand and then
they're just showing their lackof humanity and it's kind of
depressing.
Logan Levkoff (48:39):
It's brutal, though I would say maybe, if
anything comes out of this, isthat the Jewish community in the
diaspora becomes stronger,recognizes who they are,
recognizes this unbreakableconnection to our homeland, that
we are responsible for eachother, that as much as Israel
(49:01):
needs us right now, we need hertoo.
I mean, history has shown usthat time and time again and
that maybe everyone here wasgetting a little complacent and
we've just been reminded of whowe are and why we need each
other, and that's a really scarything, but a really important
thing historically.
I think this is going toforever be a major and I hate
(49:23):
the phrase inflection pointbecause I feel like people use
it all the time, but I thinkthat this is one of those
moments for the Jewish, theglobal Jewish community.
I think there's a before and anafter, and the entire global
community will change.
Nicole Kelly (49:36):
I yeah, no, I definitely agree, it's.
I will have to do to say,though, that I am tired of
living through these once in alifetime crazy turning points.
I'm a little, a little over, Iunderstand.
Logan Levkoff (49:47):
It's been exhausting.
Nicole Kelly (49:49):
I'm not even 40 yet and I've dealt with this
9-11 couple wars in October,october 7, january 6.
I'm just I'm done, I need, Iwant like a break end of January
.
So I'm just I'm done, I need, Iwant like a break.
So now we're going to do myactor studio style questions.
So, like I said, these can beshort form or you can read, you
can kind of elaborate a littlebit, should you?
Should, you like?
(50:10):
What is your favorite Yiddishword?
Logan Levkoff (50:14):
For this enough.
Nicole Kelly (50:16):
Can you explain what that means for my listeners
who don't know what that means?
Logan Levkoff (50:19):
It's someone who's constantly scow means it's
basically it's someone who'sconstantly scowling.
It's like a constant, likeresting bitch face.
I feel like modern people wouldcall it resting bitch face, I
don't know Like it was a wordthat my mom used growing up and
I'm just obsessed with it andit's a word that you hear it and
you're like, oh my God, I feelwhat that word is, I could see
it.
Nicole Kelly (50:39):
And that's what I love about Yiddish is like, it's
very like you feel the words.
I love it.
What is your favorite Jewishholiday?
Logan Levkoff (50:49):
My favorite Jewish holiday, kol Nidre.
It's the eve of Yom Kippur.
I find the quiet and the music.
I just I find it magical andpeaceful.
I desperately need that, thatsense of there is a world out
there more important than you,and I get it that night every
year.
Nicole Kelly (51:10):
If you were to have a bat mitzvah today, what
would the theme of the party be?
Zionist Barbie, of course.
Well, if you have another batmitzvah, that course.
Zionist Barbie.
Well, if you have another batmitzvah, that sounds like a fun
party.
(51:30):
I'd like to attend whatprofession other than your own.
Logan Levkoff (51:32):
Would you want to attempt, rabbi, rabbi?
Nicole Kelly (51:36):
If heaven is real.
I haven't gotten that one yet.
If heaven is real and God isthere to welcome you, what would
you like to hear them say?
Logan Levkoff (51:48):
Look who's waiting for you, and I'd like my
grandfather to be standingbehind them.
Nicole Kelly (51:54):
I said something similar.
It's hopefully what that is.
So is there anything else thatyou want to talk about, like a
project or a book?
I mean, we've been.
This is one of my longestinterviews, Do I?
Logan Levkoff (52:07):
have those these days.
I feel like my life isliterally like Logan Levka,
former sex educator, big mouth,jew is really like business
cards.
But, by the way, that beingsaid, like I wouldn't, I truth
be told and and I wouldn't, Iwouldn't change any of it.
(52:27):
I feel like, um, I feel like Iwas kind of made for this, for
this moment.
Um, and I don't mean that inlike an ego maniacal sort of way
, I just feel like I look in themirror these days and I see, I
see my grandparents looking backat me.
I know what my responsibilitiesare.
(52:49):
I feel it deep in my bones andI feel like I've been prepared
for this time.
So, as as challenging as it is,I feel prepared.
I feel prepared and I'll dowhatever I have to do.
Nicole Kelly (53:08):
Well, thank you so much for sharing everything and
you know, giving advice, and Ihad a great time.
Hopefully you did too.
I did so.
This is Nicole Kelly, and thishas been Shebrew in the City ¶¶.
Thank you.
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So this is part two of myinterview with dr logan levkov.
(00:36):
I hope you enjoy it.
So we've noticed that when youare trying to conceive,
sometimes sex can be like aterrible.
Logan Levkoff (00:52):
It can be terrible.
It's terrible.
There's a lot of pressure,there's it is.
Nicole Kelly (00:56):
It's terrible.
There's a lot of pressurethere's, you know, there, there
it's just, it's like scheduledtoo, which is nobody wants to be
like okay, well, these are thedays we need to have sex, and I
feel like that's something thatI'm curious about.
If there's a couple who istrying to conceive, especially
if you're having fertilityproblems, you know, and it's
like a year in and you know,because a lot of couples they
(01:19):
try to have sex, you know likenaturally conceive for more than
a year before the start offertility treatments.
What's your advice for thesepeople, because it can be very
difficult.
Logan Levkoff (01:32):
Sex, goal-oriented sex for the
purpose of conception is brutal.
It is a chore, it feels like ajob.
It does not feel anything likea sexual, intimate, pleasurable
experience.
So first thing to know is don'tfeel guilty if that is your
experience, because that's whatmost people are experiencing,
(01:56):
but no one likes to talk aboutit, right?
I think the other piece of itis we need to think about what
are the little things we can doto make it feel more intimate.
By the way, having pleasure likereal pleasure is a part of that
, right.
There's no reason why you can't, and it doesn't necessarily
have to be an orgasm, but itcertainly could be, or anything
(02:18):
leading up to it.
It should still be somethingthat you enjoy and, by the way,
that kind of relaxation alsohelps everything too, right.
So there is that, or the way inwhich you set up your room.
I always laugh and it's sosilly, but you know what's
(02:39):
really not sexy when you arehaving some kind of sexual
experience.
You turn over and in youreyeline is like a picture of
your family or religiousiconography or your kids Like
that's miserable right.
So there are things we can do tocreate environments around us
that at least make it feelslightly sexier for lack of a
(03:00):
better word instead of like aninstitutional job.
Nicole Kelly (03:03):
Yeah, Is that also your advice to parents you know
, who aren't trying to conceive,but try and keep an active sex
life?
Like don't have a picture ofyour, of your two year old, next
to your bed, or maybe yourgrandmother or you know a cross
or whatever your religiousaffiliation is on the wall.
Logan Levkoff (03:20):
Yeah, I think in general, like, look, I am never
going to be that sexualityprofessional that says, take
your TV out of your bedroombecause I love my TV in my
bedroom and I will never take itout.
I'm sorry, beg, scream,whatever.
It's never coming out of mybedroom, I love it.
So that's my, I mean my, guiltypleasure.
But yeah, I mean, if you're,how sexy are you going to feel
(03:43):
if you're looking at yourparents Like you're how, how
sexy are you going to feel ifyou're looking at your parents
like you're sitting up, someoneis on top of you or vice versa,
and you're like looking at yourin-laws, like that's not, like
that's not really.
No, really exciting, no, it'snot.
Yeah, is there other than?
Nicole Kelly (03:57):
other than taking away the pictures from your
in-laws?
What advice do you have forparents, especially of young
children, when you're exhaustedall the time and sometimes kids
are sleeping in your bed and youknow how to keep an active sex
life with that?
Logan Levkoff (04:15):
What would be your advice?
There are a lot of differentsex acts that still end in
pleasure.
That don't have to be, you know, sexual intercourse if you
don't have time or the space forit, because someone is sleeping
between you.
There is the most boring sayingin the sex ed relationship
space, which is the concept ofscheduling sex, scheduling a
date night.
It is so painfully boring andhorrific as a concept.
(04:38):
However, the reason why everyonetells you it is because it
works, because you are activelyputting aside time.
This is going to be the.
This is going to be the timethat is going to be for us.
And also, I do think that evenwhen you're tired and I'm not
saying that we should give in toeach other's needs all the time
(04:59):
However, a little bit ofintimacy and pleasure like
begets more, like it winds upbeing really good.
So, yeah, maybe one day youwake up 20 minutes earlier, you
know, and fool around before thealarm like your real alarm
clock and, yes, will you betired?
Yes, you probably will be, butwithin five minutes you will be
(05:21):
a hell of a lot less tired and ahell of a lot more aroused, and
it will feel great for the restof your week.
Nicole Kelly (05:25):
And probably have a better day in the long run.
Logan Levkoff (05:28):
Yes.
Nicole Kelly (05:29):
Yes, yes, so this is not a pleasurable question,
really really pivoting.
How do you think the repeal ofRoe v Wade has affected the
necessity of sex education andsafe sex?
Because I love how outspokenyou are about being pro-choice
on your Instagram and I knowthat a lot of people are afraid
(05:51):
to talk about being pro-choicebecause of all the things out
there.
But how is you know in the pastI think it's been almost two
years now how has that affectedthe way that you talk about sex
and just sex education ingeneral?
Logan Levkoff (06:10):
Truth be told, it hasn't changed what.
It hasn't changed what I do,because my I believe that it's
important to have know all ofthe options and all of the
potential outcomes, regardlessof whether or not your state
gives you the right to bodilyautonomy.
So my information that I impartdoesn't change.
(06:32):
However, I do have lots ofconversations these days around
how current events and lawsimpact people's sexual health,
and that's an importantconversation to have.
So, depending on where you liveand, by the way, we know what's
happening in Alabama- now withfertilized embryos being people
(06:52):
right.
So those are great conversationsbecause it starts getting young
people to think not just thinkabout what things mean, but
choices they make in the future.
What does that mean for them asan individual?
What would that mean in apartnership?
What would it mean if they wentto college in another state?
So there are lots of criticalthinking skills that can come
out of talking about politicalissues that I find highly
(07:15):
problematic.
So I think that while theinformation I impart you know
just my general sex edinformation doesn't change I
guess I'll tweak my answer alittle bit it has provided me
opportunities to get people tothink about how changing laws
impact sexual health, how wecan't say that sexual health
(07:37):
isn't political, because thereare decisions that get made all
of the time that impact what youdo and how you do it and your
access to things, even if youhad no say over it.
So that's an important skillfor people to develop.
Nicole Kelly (07:50):
Do you think kind of on the flip side of that, the
Me Too movement has affectedthe way people talk about sex?
Logan Levkoff (07:59):
I mean, I have to tell you these days I'm very
angry with the Me Too movementbecause it seems to be Me Too is
only important unless you areIsraeli.
Nicole Kelly (08:07):
Yes, we're going to talk about that in a little
bit.
Okay so so, oh good.
So I mean I'm not a we'rehitting the hard questions here
because I I'm so glad, I'm soglad that we're we're having
this, but I just I rememberthere was kind of this, because
I see a whole slew of things onthe internet, after the Me Too
movement kind of happened, ofmen being like well, now I'm
(08:29):
afraid that any sort of sexualexperience I have with a woman,
she can turn around and say thatI didn't want it.
You know, I think that therewas kind of not that I
necessarily agree with that.
I feel like consent is superimportant and you can make
consent sexy if you want.
Logan Levkoff (08:52):
But I feel like it kind of changed the narrative
, especially, I think, maybe foryoung men, about sex, the
conversations around Me Too andconsent.
How Me Too changed our globalconversations is well, everyone
was talking about it.
Everyone was talking about itin high profile.
People were getting you know inhot water for doing things that
they've done for years.
Nicole Kelly (09:12):
Which were like not really secrets.
No, no, no, right, and therewere a lot of enablers in all of
those dynamics right.
Logan Levkoff (09:19):
Yeah, we're also responsible for creating those
cultures.
As sexuality educators, we arealways talking about consent and
the importance of having avoice and how to be the kind of
person that someone is willingto share their body with.
And so to me conversations if Iever hear someone say like, oh,
(09:40):
obviously someone is going tosay that something happened in
order to get a man in troubleand obviously that is rooted in
such misogyny it's horrific andI bristle at the thought.
But if you are the kind, if youare a standup partner who
values someone's voice, who asksthe right questions, who says
you know, I want to berespectful of your boundaries
(10:01):
and vice versa, tell me, tell mewhat you want and what you
don't want, and it's okay, nomatter what then you are
creating a dynamic where no oneis deliberately going to get you
into trouble because that'sjust a shitty like shitty.
People would do that regardlessof gender.
That's not a gender thing.
And if we're all honest andupfront about what we want and
(10:22):
what we don't want, then we'reactually breaking that cycle,
because for years, people didtalk about what they want.
They made assumptions and wentfor it and then found it after
Someone's like eh, we reallywasn't into that.
Nicole Kelly (10:38):
I think the idea of consent in the way that it is
today is also very new, becauseI feel, like you just kind of I
don't know, I'm trying tofigure out a way to say this
like of my generation, the ideaof being like really honest
about what you wanted and whatyou weren't comfortable with was
not something that was reallyadvocated for, if that makes any
(11:01):
sense.
Like you know, you were justkind of like, well, I guess this
is the way that you know this,this is how this works, so
that's what you're you're you'resupposed to do, and I feel like
there was a pressure to dothings.
So, I mean, I have, I havemajor issues with the movement
as well for various reasons, butI think what did kind of come
from the conversation was a, asolidarity between women,
(11:22):
realizing that a lot of us havehad sexual experience or
unwanted sexual attention, andnot making us feel alone, but
also, you know, the idea of of,uh, consent and also like
preventing mixed messages,because if you're like, hey, I'm
not cool with this, like it'sagain, if you have a respectful
partner, they're gonna be likeokay, you know right, right, I
(11:44):
mean, a lot of theseconversations wind up being
litmus tests for whether or notsomeone is a worthy sexual
partner.
Logan Levkoff (11:50):
Right, and sometimes and I'm outside of the
Me Too movement we I think this, we in general need to do a
better job at trusting our gut,you know, and when someone like
is giving us clues that maybethey're not really concerned
about our pleasure, what we want, instead of sickly crossing our
fingers like maybe it'll workout, Maybe we should just
(12:11):
realize ah, signs are notpointing in the right direction.
I think I'm going to go meetsomeone else.
Nicole Kelly (12:17):
Yeah, which I think you need to.
You need to know that you cando and it can be, you know,
appropriate to do that.
Logan Levkoff (12:26):
So let's talk Absolutely.
And again I would just say thisI think, similarly there are
also experiences that are justkind of gray, for lack of a
better term.
You know experiences where,like, maybe you didn't really
love it, but you didn't saysomething negative, the other
person you're not really surewas into it too, Like not.
(12:47):
there are also experiences thatare not wonderful Right, that
are not necessarily consentexperiences, as much as they are
just bad experience bad sexualexperiences, and also that
requires speaking up to to saywhat you liked and what you
didn't like, right, or whyyou're not seeing someone else
again.
I think that's the problem isthat we do a lot of, we want to
(13:10):
do a lot of mind reading wherewe think we're just going to
like miraculously know what doesthis person want, what are they
not?
What feels good, what doesn'tfeel good?
Are they going to let me knowif something hurts?
And inevitably people don't,because unless we feel empowered
to advocate for ourselves,we're going to say nothing.
So my take on it is always havethose tough conversations,
(13:33):
acknowledge and be upfront aboutthe fact that this conversation
is hard for me to have, but Ilike you enough and there are
things I'd like to do with you,so I'm going to have it.
Nicole Kelly (13:42):
So let's talk about sex within Judaism.
So I know from my limitedknowledge of kind of sex and
physical touch within theOrthodox community they have
very specific rules regardingsex and physical touch.
So a lot of for those of youthat don't know a lot of
Orthodox Jews will not touchpeople of the opposite sex who
they aren't directly related tountil they're married.
(14:03):
And then, even when they aremarried, there are these family
I think they call them likefamily purity laws, where if a
woman is menstruating or hasjust finished menstruating,
husband and wife won't toucheach other.
And one of I don't want to saythe reasons they say for that is
to prepare couples for a timewhen intimacy isn't like a
(14:24):
hallmark of their relationship.
So it kind of, I guess, getsthem ready for when they're not
having sex, which I don't.
I see your face.
You're like um, are there?
Is there legitimately any meritin that?
Or is this just kind of whatthey've decided?
That is what they're going todo?
Logan Levkoff (14:50):
decided.
That is what they're going todo.
I have to be honest, I'm not anexpert in Orthodox Judaism, so
I'm the wrong person to offerprofessional guidance in
communities whose sexual valuesmight be different than mine.
That being said, I do thinkthat there can be a lot of
excitement and eroticism inwaiting and building excitement
(15:15):
and having limited touch.
It's just not common for lotsof people, right?
But I can't say that someone'sexperience isn't going to be
highly erotic.
If they've, if they've had toavoid touch, I mean maybe it's
super hot and amazing.
Right, it's real.
I I would hope it would, yes tobe.
(15:36):
But again, this is why you know, when sexual issues emerge
within the orthodox community,there are some amazing, amazing
Orthodox sex therapists who areso well equipped and skilled in
navigating these issues.
Because, obviously, the lensthrough which I see it is a very
secularized, sex-empowered,sex-forward lens, so my version
(16:03):
is going to be very skewed.
Nicole Kelly (16:04):
Is this kind of sex therapist within the
Orthodox community a newer thing?
I would, as I'm assuming it's.
Women are talking to women andmen are talking to men.
Logan Levkoff (16:15):
I mean all the most of the people I know are
are women.
Um, and they're amazing.
I mean there there is an entirecommunity of Orthodox sexuality
therapists.
Really, I mean, yeah, it isquite extraordinary because
there are complexities anddynamics within Orthodox
(16:39):
partnerships that are not likethe average you know
relationship that we talk abouthere.
Nicole Kelly (16:46):
It's very true.
So, as two Jewish women, Ithink we've probably been very
aware that Jewish women in mediaare often depicted as prudish
and non-sexual beings.
Why do you think this is, andwhat can we as Jewish women do
to break this stereotype in oureveryday life?
(17:06):
Because I feel like there's,you know, like a great show that
was really great about kind ofbreaking the stereotype was
Marvelous, mrs Maisel.
But that's really the only timeI've seen an example of an
attractive young woman who isJewish showing that she likes
sex or was sexual.
I really can't think of anyother, you know media where a
(17:30):
woman's presented as Jewish andas a sexual person.
Logan Levkoff (17:35):
There's no doubt that the character or sorry, the
caricature of Jewish women isoften overbearing, neurotic,
helicoptering all things to allpeople, but not necessarily
sexual, and it's frustrating.
It's frustrating because it'sactually not at all indicative
(17:56):
of a single Jewish woman I know.
However, it was very much myunderstanding on some of those
old comics, those old images,that old, you know, yiddish
theater.
That's where some of that hadcome from and, by the way, there
is a place for that.
But I think there's also anopportunity for us to reclaim
what sexual Jewish woman lookslike, simply by existing in our
(18:19):
natural state, which is sexualbeing, state, which is sexual
being, and recognizing thatwe're not separating our Judaism
from our sexual side.
People laugh all of the time.
I absolutely do what I do for aliving because it is rooted in
my Jewish values, my belief inpleasure and equity and
(18:41):
education and the intimacy ofrelationships Like that's all of
them and the belief thateveryone has the right to live
and thrive with dignity Likethose are all my Jewish values
too.
So I think we just need to do abetter job at saying like I am
a proud sexual Jewish woman andI don't resemble the stereotypes
(19:04):
, so maybe the stereotypes areinaccurate.
Nicole Kelly (19:08):
So you talked about earlier about being very
proudly Jewish, and I think thisis something that, especially
recently, a lot of people whoare very active on social media
have, I don't want to say,struggled with, but there's a
lot of bad stuff out there.
So what are some of thechallenges that you face as a
publicly Jewish woman who youknow is well known within your
(19:31):
industry and just in general,because we haven't talked about
you know you being on numeroustelevision shows and things like
that, but what are the kind ofthe struggles of that,
especially since October 7th,that you faced in being Jewish
in general and pro-Israel?
Logan Levkoff (19:47):
And, by the way, even like pro, like there's no
other place.
People use words pro or anti.
Nicole Kelly (19:51):
I know it's so absurd right.
Yeah.
Logan Levkoff (19:56):
I am a proud Zionist.
Zionism is literally rooted ineverything that I do.
Zionism is theself-determination movement for
Jews in our ancestral homeland.
Everything that I do Zionism isthe self-determination movement
for Jews in our ancestralhomeland.
It is a radical decolonizationproject and it is bastardized
all the time by people who knownothing about Jews and nothing
about Israel or the history.
So there's that.
That's my first blanketstatement.
Aggressive possibly, but that'sliterally where I'm living days
(20:20):
in aggression.
The challenges are both endlessand endless.
I am an expert in difficultconversations, as I shared early
on, like I cut my teeth talkingabout sex and sexuality as a
(20:44):
young person, not just online,but in TV and in person in
classes, and I was always usedto people writing horrible shit
about me because I talked aboutsex for a long time.
So I was used to it and I knewhow to deal with the adversity.
And, by the way, I'm probably alittle bit of an intellectual
(21:07):
masochist because I'm in thisspace.
I love the fight I do.
I was made for the fight,especially when I feel like I'm
right, which is most of the timeit's good to feel that you're
right.
Yeah, totally feel that you'reright.
Yeah, totally, but I neverwould have imagined that in 2024
(21:29):
, the difficult conversation Iwould have to have or encourage
people to have, would be aroundJudaism and Israel.
I would have you could havetold me that a million times
over.
I would have never believed it,never, never, never.
So the challenges I have todayare I mean, I get a lot of nasty
(21:52):
, horrible, like death wishingthings said about me pretty
regularly, but again, sometimesyou get used to it which is
pathetic, pathetic and yet true.
I mean they're not verycreative.
Nicole Kelly (22:05):
I have to say no, they're not or intelligent.
Logan Levkoff (22:09):
No, they don't know.
There's a lot of spelling andgrammatical problems.
They're like they use the samelines over and over again.
They're not really creative.
I feel like maybe I would givethem a little more credit if
they could come up withsomething new.
But I mean, an oven joke islike it's.
You know how 1940s really ishandled at this point.
Nicole Kelly (22:31):
I had someone say something like that to me on the
street and I was like, I mean,it was horrifying because I was
giving a tour at the time, butit's just like that's where
we're going with this.
Logan Levkoff (22:38):
Right.
So there's and, by the way, mymaking light of it isn't because
I don't think it's serious,it's just I don't know another
way to deal with it these daysbecause it's everywhere, because
if I let myself really wallowin some of it I don't think I'd
be able to get out of bed.
I mean, it's enough that theminute I wake up I put on armor
(23:01):
Mental, less physical, but likeI'm ready for a fight wherever I
go these days, whether it'sonline, whether it's having to
deal with some professor at mykid's schools that are saying
something horrible, or a kidthat calls them some horrible
name, or whether it's wonderingif the person sitting next to me
on the subway sees my mug andDavid and wants to kill me, like
(23:21):
all of that stuff.
Like I have armor on the minuteI wake up and it is a little
exhausting.
I'm not going to lie, but I tryto make it more bearable by
using a little bit of humor andgrace.
And so one of the things I'vedone is I've started to make
content using the horriblethings that people have said
about me, because it is my wayof controlling the narrative,
(23:44):
and also using humor and alittle bit of personality, and I
also wanted to use it and thiswas way before October 7th to
show my peers who told me I wascrazy when I said that
anti-Semitism was alive andkicking that.
No, actually it's very much hereand you don't have to look that
far to find it.
So October 7th unfortunatelyjust put a giant, giant
(24:08):
exclamation point a milliontimes over on all of the things
that I had been feeling, and itwas an atrocious wake-up call.
But, lesson learned, I got itLike I know who my friends are,
I know who my enemies are, Iknow who has spoken out, I know
who my friends are, I know whomy enemies are, I know who has
spoken out, I know who has saidnothing.
And I am and I'll use a wordthat people don't like using for
(24:32):
women, but I'm going to use itanyway I can be a relentless
bitch and you know what I'mgoing to remember I will never
forget and I will make sure youdon't forget either.
Nicole Kelly (24:43):
Good for you for kind of turning this around and
empowering yourself.
I'm not the kind of personbecause I don't have 12,000
followers on Instagram.
I have like less than 500 andI've started posting TikTok
videos and it's like amazing howthese people will find you and
they'll just start.
And I'm like I'm a nobody with.
I have no, really no socialmedia presence.
(25:04):
I'm just starting to grow itand it's amazing how they'll
find you and just start sayingthe craziest things.
It's like a full-time job forthem.
Logan Levkoff (25:14):
That's true.
You're not.
First of all, you're not.
No one is a nobody right Likeplatforms mean nothing,
literally mean nothing.
It's just to me, at the end ofthe day, regardless of what
platform it's on, I don't reallycare what people say in
response.
It is my way of creating my ownstory, my own online journal
for what I am experiencing atany given moment.
(25:35):
Whether anyone likes it ordoesn't like it, honestly, like
I don't care.
I do it because I feelcompelled to create a story.
That's my story and maybe if wechange the way we think about
it, then some of that stuff iseasier to navigate.
But I do acknowledge that in allof these years I have developed
a very thick skin because Ihave had to, but I didn't always
(25:55):
.
There were times and it wasn'treally during the.
It didn't really have to dowith Jew hatred or anti-Semitism
or whatever, whatever term wewant to use.
It was really when I was on aTV show.
I was on a show called Marriedat First Sight for the first
three seasons, yes, which seemslike a lifetime ago at this
(26:16):
point and a rumor, some horriblerumor about my fellow peer, my
professionals and I about ourethics, and it's because,
apparently, facts don't matter.
Nicole Kelly (26:29):
No one fact checks and definitions.
Words don't have definitionsanymore.
Logan Levkoff (26:34):
No, no.
So this rumor kind of likespread like wildfire and it
showed up in all of these placesand I was getting hundreds and
hundreds and hundreds ofmessages saying the most awful
things about me.
And the worst thing you couldsay about me back then was, you
know, was to question myprofessional integrity,
something I've worked soincredibly hard at and I was so
(26:56):
crushed.
And so my husband came home oneday and I was on the couch it
was like the middle of theafternoon.
I was wasted and sobbing, likeI had plowed through a couple of
cocktails.
I was like a Twitter open infront of me.
I was just like hysteric, justcrying, and he looked at me and,
very much to his credit, hesaid what's going on?
(27:16):
I said they're saying the mosthorrible things.
I was amassed.
And he said who and I think thename was some version of
Cupcake Lover 405.
And he's like whoa CupcakeLover?
Who is Cupcake Lover 405?
And I said I have absolutely noidea, but they're saying all
these terrible things.
(27:37):
He said logan, first of all, ifcupcake lover 405 met you on
the street, would they punch youin the face or would they ask
to take your picture?
And I had this moment and Ithought you know they're a fan
of the show.
Clearly I don't think theywould punch me in the face and
he's like, and this is whoyou're crying over.
(27:58):
And I said me in the face andhe's like, and this is who
you're crying over.
And I said, okay, so I thinkyou might be right.
I think you might be right.
And he took my phone away fromme for 24 hours till I, like,
pulled myself together and itchanged my perspective on
everything.
Now, that was when it was myprofessional integrity, my
Judaism and my very proudZionism, which I do think are
(28:22):
very linked.
I don't think you could reallyseparate the two, as much as
people would like to say you can.
I don't think you can, but Ifeel like that is a different,
deeply personal attack on me,one that I am fearless and very
thick-skinned over, because Iknow what that means.
Right, and that is something Iam willing to fight to the end
(28:42):
for.
That is not something I'm goingto be crying over.
The only time I cried with thatwas when I realized that my
field, the very progressivefield of sexuality education,
we're a group of Jew haters, butyou know most of the other
stuff.
I'm just, my claws are out andI'm ready, so I ready.
Nicole Kelly (29:00):
So I want to talk about what you just said,
because the reports and evensome of the video of the sexual
violence that took place onOctober 7th is horrifying and I
I've heard some stories Ihaven't watched any video
because I I don't think I'm inan emotional place to do that
and reportedly this is alsostill happening as well to the
(29:22):
hostages.
Do you think that people areignoring this or saying it's not
real because it's happening toJewish women?
Logan Levkoff (29:29):
Yes, yes, I do, I do.
I think that there isabsolutely no reason why we have
given credibility to everysingle person who has spoken up,
every single person, right, and, by the way, I'm not saying
that we shouldn't validatepeople's claims.
I'm not telling you that weshouldn't.
(29:50):
But there is evidence, a lot ofevidence.
There is testimony, there isdocumentation from the actual
people who perpetrated thecrimes, right, gleefully
engaging in what they are doing.
And yet people are still sayingI don't think it's true,
(30:11):
there's no evidence.
We would say this to no othergroup, you know, and at the end
of the day, the issue is I andI've said it before, this is
about Israel now, but it's notreally about Israel.
This is about Jews.
This is about Jews Because,honestly, people are too dumb to
know that there are otherpeople other than Jews living in
(30:31):
Israel and how diverse it is.
It's how it's a breathtakingtapestry of diverse populations.
But no one cares because it'scalled the Jewish state, right,
so people assume it's only onegroup of people.
But it is horrifying thelengths people will go to to
turn themselves and twistthemselves into pretzels to
(30:54):
justify their behavior, and wewould never do it with anyone
else.
And yet this is the mosthorrific documented acts of
depraved sexual violence weprobably have seen ever, ever,
ever, ever.
Nicole Kelly (31:09):
I think what's even more and you just mentioned
this crazy to me is not thepeople necessarily denying it,
but the people who are, like yousaid, justifying it, and I
think that's so much worse andit's just, it's just sickening,
like as a as a, not only like asa Jew, but like as a human
being.
It's like this whole, likeresistance is justified when
(31:30):
you're occupied.
Call I don't.
No, I don't think you know.
Raping a woman until her pelvicbones are broken and then
shooting her in the head isjustified in any circumstance.
Logan Levkoff (31:41):
Right.
And also, by the way, those bigwords people are using actually
are not relatable to thisconflict at all, which is
another piece of it.
But also, in what other groupwould anyone ever say that
that's okay, that rape is alegitimate war tactic?
Nicole Kelly (32:00):
It's not.
Logan Levkoff (32:00):
We would never say, we would never.
I know like that's, we wouldnever.
No one would say it for anyoneelse, for anyone else.
And there is a sense of oh no,it's not a sense, it's just a
real feeling.
For me, I feel betrayed onlevels that I did not feel like
I could possibly be betrayed onby professionals in my community
(32:22):
.
I mean my community, myprofessional community is all
about believing people andconsent and bodily autonomy and
talking about, you know, healthyrelationships and like all of
the things that what happened onOctober 7th is literally
antithetical to at its core.
And yet my field is eerilysilent.
(32:43):
There's a lot of moralequivalencies and posturing and
you know where is the evidence.
And to me, this is a betrayal.
It is.
You know, I'm not one of thosepeople who believes like when
someone says words are violence,who believes like when someone
says words are violence.
But like this in this case,this is like a violent attack on
me, when you can't bringyourself to condemn something
(33:06):
because of who it happened to.
But again, if I'm going to be alittle snarky and which is
often how I have to be now inorder to navigate some of the
feelings I have, my take on, itis okay.
Lesson learned Good.
You just told me who you were.
Now I know I would much ratherknow who you are face to face
(33:27):
than have you stab me in theback.
Nicole Kelly (33:29):
Do you think that part of the reason that people
are thinking this is justifiedis because there's this
narrative that Jews are whiteand which is we know is not true
?
I love my favorite thing onInstagram is like people who are
black and Jewish just likelaughing at the white colonizer
thing.
Do you think that's part of it?
Even though, like, I'veliterally seen pictures of
hostages and like these peopleare of Mizrahi descent, like is
(33:51):
that where this is coming from?
Logan Levkoff (33:54):
A lot of it.
So I think that, first of all,the average person has no idea
who Jews are.
No idea, they think we aresolely a faith and not realizing
that we were a faith.
Nicole Kelly (34:04):
Last of all of the categories, we were a faith,
it's true, I'm taking a Jewishhistory class now and that is
like a big question is like iswhen did Judaism become a
religion?
Like what is a religion?
And you know all of thesethings.
So this is this is my, my, my P, my my, my professor, with a P
June, june's history says thesame thing, so it's very true.
Logan Levkoff (34:23):
Yeah, I mean, we were a tribe, we're an ethnicity
, we are people, we are also afaith.
We cross all modern racialcategories and other ethnic
categories.
It's, it's so silly and thepeople who you know think of us
as being solely white.
I mean, first of all, couldn'tlocate Israel on a map if their
life depended on it.
Right, wouldn't know thedifference between, like if you
(34:46):
saw an Israeli, from aPalestinian to a Druze, like
Bedouin, would have no,literally no idea, couldn't tell
the difference between anyone.
But we've created this weirdbinary system of either you are
oppressed or the oppressor.
Right, you are a victim or youare a victimizer.
And because the stereotypeshere have been Jews that look
like us, as opposed to showingthe complexity and the diversity
(35:08):
within Judaism, you know,people think that we're all,
that Israelis and Jews are allwhite, despite the fact that you
know we seem not to be whiteenough for certain groups of
people.
Nicole Kelly (35:20):
Yeah, Like Nazis, we're white.
Logan Levkoff (35:22):
When it's convenient, we're the only
people who are too white forsome right on the left, not
white enough for people on theright.
And so here we exist in thisweird space where we are like
conditionally white sometimes,but even saying that erases all
of the people who don't looklike us, who are Jewish, and
there are plenty and plenty andplenty of those.
So I think this is a muchdeeper problem.
(35:43):
I think this is aninstitutional problem, this is
an educational problem, and Idon't think it's getting solved
anytime soon.
I think that what's happeningin Israel is just the beginning.
I think this is a, this is a.
That's the frontline for now,but I think that what we are all
going to have to deal with here, and what our kids are going to
have to deal with and navigate,is a whole other type of war.
(36:06):
It's scary and we should beprepared for it.
Nicole Kelly (36:08):
I mean, you have a son in college, like I.
I would be terrified if mychild was in college right now
and I was trying to explain tomy sister cause she wasn't
unaware.
She was unaware of what wasgoing on she was here last week
of the crazy things that arehappening on campuses.
I mean, I'd be terrified,especially with some of the
schools we mentioned, which arelauded as some of the greatest
(36:29):
educational institutions in theentire world.
The narrative that's goingaround and the things that I
hear some public school teachersare saying in class or showing
maps that have Palestine, andit's just like I feel like I'm
living in a world where, likeyou said, facts aren't facts and
words don't have definition.
I got one of my collegeroommates got.
(36:50):
I like I had to unfriend her onFacebook because she was trying
to say well, I feel like it'san apartheid and I was like
feelings are not facts.
And here is my argument showingyou it's not that and also
that's not real.
And I feel like I'd love, I'dlove to have like a legitimate,
intelligent conversation withsomebody who has an opposing
view, but I haven't been able todo that because they keep
(37:11):
coming up with these liketalking points that I can
disprove within two seconds, butthey're like but I feel this
and it's like, well, I feel likeI should be a millionaire, but
that doesn't mean that it's real.
You know what I mean, Right?
Logan Levkoff (37:22):
You can feel however you want, but the I mean
, if you stepped foot in therefor a hot minute, you would see
that like can't call itapartheid.
Nicole Kelly (37:33):
Yeah, it's not.
Logan Levkoff (37:33):
I saw someone.
Nicole Kelly (37:35):
I saw someone that was like I'm driving past the
Islamic art museum in myapartheid state on the way to
work and I was like I see you,sir, I see you, I see you.
Logan Levkoff (37:45):
I just, I do, I do.
I do appreciate the Jewish humora little bit that's come out of
this, because people are, youknow, jews are really great
about using humor as a healingsource.
But we need but.
But here's the thing we need to, because then all we would be
doing is wallowing in traumaindefinitely, and we can't, we
can't live like that.
So you know that's, we have tofind strategies to manage it.
(38:07):
And again, that doesn't mean we, we, we don't feel it, but but
sometimes, at least within ourown, within our own tribe, we
use humor, because otherwisewe're going to sit and cry to
each other, and that's, that's areally hard thing.
I mean, yes, I have a freshmanand a freshman, so in college
and in high school, but my kidhas spent all of high school
(38:31):
fighting this stuff.
So, quite frankly, if anyonewas prepared for college campus,
it was him, far better preparedthan most people were, and
that's a horrifying thing to saythat he honed his skills on
fighting anti-Semitism in highschool.
But he did, but he did.
And also, I think the otherpiece of it that people don't
always realize is, if you wantto raise and there are a lot of
different ways to be a fighter,right, some people like to be
(38:51):
lightning rods.
Some people like to work behindthe scenes.
They're equally important.
Jobs right, they're equallyimportant.
Not everyone has to be me, norshould be me, to be honest.
There are people who do otherthings far better.
But I would say all of the onlyreason we and our young people
(39:13):
can be fighters, in whatevercapacity they choose to fight,
is when they know that theadults in their life have their
back.
That's the biggest thing.
The reason my kids have beenable to go toe-to-toe with
people, with teachers, withprofessors, with administrators
is because they knew that theirfamily had their back.
And if something happened, ifthey got in trouble, if they got
expelled, if they got into afight, I was going to make it an
(39:34):
international incident and Istill would right, because I'm
not letting it go.
This is too important and toomany people spend too much time
putting their heads down in thesand saying it's not so bad,
don't make waves.
It's only one comment, it wasnever only going to be one
comment.
So here's where we are.
What do we do with that?
Nicole Kelly (39:55):
It's my mother-in-law calls it being a
mama bear or a lion being veryprotective of your children, and
it's nice to know that theyhave that support, because I
feel, like some, I want to bethe kind of mother that when my
daughter gets in a troubledsituation, she's not going to
think I'm scared, what my mom'sgoing to think, but I need to
(40:17):
call my mom because she'll knowwhat to do, and I feel like that
goes exactly with what you'resaying, that you have your kids
back.
Logan Levkoff (40:24):
So yeah and, by the way, I love you I use that
phrase all the time that I amlike a.
I am like a warrior lioness,like just and not like in a
hovering way.
But you know, if you cross thecore values, or we're going to
have an issue.
We're going to have an issue.
My young people will deal withit first, but if they, if they
(40:45):
choose to bring me in, all betsare off, that's fair, that's
fair.
Nicole Kelly (40:51):
So I can't make any guarantees.
So while we were talking I kindof like bullet pointed
something that I hadn't thoughtabout.
But have you seen the show onNetflix, Big Mouth?
Yes, what do you think about?
Logan Levkoff (41:03):
Big Mouth.
Nicole Kelly (41:04):
I feel like sometimes it can be even a
little over the top, for youknow, just in general, but I
think in a lot of but I think ina lot of ways it's a very
honest depiction of what it'slike to be a teenager.
Logan Levkoff (41:18):
So I think in so many ways it is so brilliant.
It's how we as adults wouldlook, exactly how we as adults
would look back on adolescence,with all of the complexities and
the hideous moments and thehysterical moments, and then, of
course, it is also very overthe top.
So I have a lot of students,teenage students, who watch Big
(41:39):
Mouth, who come with all sortsof information that isn't always
accurate, and so my reminder tothem is always okay, listen,
you're going to watch whatyou're going to watch.
I just need you to know thatwhat you're seeing is not
entirely representative.
So if you have questions, Ithink you should come to me
first.
(41:59):
Yeah, so if you have questions,I think you should come to me
first.
Yeah, like, let's fact check,but look if it gets people
talking and if it gets ustalking right, because really
it's not designed for teens,it's designed for us as adults.
So if it reminds us of whatthose experiences were like and
it helps us have a conversationwith young people, then how
awesome is that.
Nicole Kelly (42:24):
I feel like a lot of it's stuff that I blocked out
and I'm like, oh, yeah, that,but with a musical number, which
is one of the things I loveabout that.
Logan Levkoff (42:34):
And it's totally fun.
I mean, and listen, I rememberI think it was the second
episode when Jessie gets herperiod and she's wearing white
shorts and someone has to getlike.
I remember those moments.
Those really like harrowingmoments where you think the
world is coming to an end, butbut it's really a huge part of
growing up, right, having thatmoment where you know you feel
exposed and vulnerable and haveto manage what, what, what, what
(42:56):
are my next steps?
That's a.
That's a big, I mean, that's abig part of resilience,
developing resilience too.
Nicole Kelly (43:01):
You were recently in Israel and I know from
looking at your social media yougo quite a bit, but I feel like
this was more of a differenttype of trip.
So what did you do when andwhen did you?
How recent was this and whatdid you do when you were there?
Logan Levkoff (43:16):
So I've actually been there twice since October
7th.
My last trip I came back fivedays ago.
I was there for 10 days and Iwas there for 17 days.
In December I was there for avolunteer mission for Jewish
National Fund, usa.
We were on two different trips,both volunteer missions, I feel
like in December we wereputting Band-Aids on things.
(43:40):
We were like temporarilyhelping.
We were doing all importantthings feeding soldiers, cooking
, doing agriculture, going tothe hospital, putting together
gift boxes, working with evacueefamilies.
This trip was a little different.
We were getting kibbutzim readyfor people to come back home,
(44:03):
ready for people to come backhome.
You know, cleaning up, doing.
You know the IDF has been there.
There have been four months ofweeds and mud and insects and
you know, also doing agriculture.
We were weeding onions.
We were working with theBedouin community in agriculture
.
There.
I painted a bomb shelter in anindoor playground in Sderot,
(44:24):
which was super meaningfulbecause the kids were coming
back to the community and neededa safe place.
So this felt heavy.
I'm not going to say it doesnot feel heavy, it feels very
heavy, but it feels likerebuilding is taking place.
But it felt it was a hugeprivilege to be there.
(44:44):
Each time I've been, everyoneis so surprised to see people
Americans there, and they are sograteful that we're there.
And my response is always whenthey ask, why are you here?
My response is always when theyask why are you here, I say it
feels important to be here.
But the truth is and I sharethis as well is that, selfishly,
(45:10):
I really should be thankingthem too, because it feels very
lonely being here lately andthat I needed to be there and
have my feet on the ground andmy hands in the dirt to feel my
people too, because at leastthere, you know, I don't put on
the armor the same way it's theone place I really feel like I
can breathe.
(45:32):
And so it's kind of like ashocking statement for a Jew
from New York City to say butbut that's really how I feel
these days, and I know I'm notthe only one, because I was
sitting yesterday at a coffeeshop talking to someone and kind
of filling them in on thecollege campus situation.
I was talking about our familyand a man was sitting next to us
who was a little older than meand he looked at me in the
(45:54):
middle of the conversation andsaid I'm so sorry to eavesdrop.
I'm so impressed and in awe bywhat you're doing and your
family and I just want to saythank you.
And the man literally like, wascrying, and I feel like that's
where a lot of us are right now.
We are all just about threeseconds away from bursting into
tears at any given moment.
So I was there to bear witness.
(46:17):
I was there to feel connectionand to feel like I was doing
something, because I felt so.
I mean, pardon the sex relatedword, but I was feeling so
impotent here for for so manyweeks.
Nicole Kelly (46:32):
I'm glad you were able to go and help and feel
hopefully a little bit betterabout everything.
Logan Levkoff (46:39):
Yes, yes, I mean I, I, I do it's, it's, it was
hard, it's hard to leave.
I mean there is a there's a lotof trauma.
There was.
There's incredible resilienceand there was a lot of I mean,
look, people still can't grieveyet, right, there are still 134
hostages.
Which is crazy to me, there isstill work going on.
Nicole Kelly (46:58):
It's, it's just it's.
I mean, I don't know aboutcause you're on the other side
of the park, but I'm on the Westside and I just I feel like I
walk past these posters everyday and I feel like I know these
people and it's become reallyand I know that's the whole
point of this but it's becomereally personal, like as a
mother, as a Jewish person andas a woman, especially because
(47:21):
that's a lot of who is stillthere and they say the reason
they're not releasing them isbecause they don't want them
talking about what's happened tothem.
Logan Levkoff (47:31):
Yeah, horrific, horrific, horrific things,
horrific things, and the factthat that's not the first
statement.
People say bring the hostageshome.
You know, that's the other.
I think when someone says to mehow do you have conversations
Like, how do you engage in ahealthy discourse around this
issue?
Sometimes you can't, because tome, if the first statement
(47:54):
isn't what happened was horrible, full stop period, the hostages
need to come home, full stopperiod, then there's nothing
else for us to talk about.
Nicole Kelly (48:06):
Well, it's a lack of humanity in my opinion and I
know that's like a reallysweeping statement but it is
Because I can still feel badabout the children and civilians
in Gaza, because I'm a humanbeing and I can feel multiple
things at once.
But if you're the kind ofperson who can't, it's a lack of
(48:26):
humanity in my opinion and it'sjust really sad to see so many
people who are so uneducated anddon't understand and then
they're just showing their lackof humanity and it's kind of
depressing.
Logan Levkoff (48:39):
It's brutal, though I would say maybe, if
anything comes out of this, isthat the Jewish community in the
diaspora becomes stronger,recognizes who they are,
recognizes this unbreakableconnection to our homeland, that
we are responsible for eachother, that as much as Israel
(49:01):
needs us right now, we need hertoo.
I mean, history has shown usthat time and time again and
that maybe everyone here wasgetting a little complacent and
we've just been reminded of whowe are and why we need each
other, and that's a really scarything, but a really important
thing historically.
I think this is going toforever be a major and I hate
(49:23):
the phrase inflection pointbecause I feel like people use
it all the time, but I thinkthat this is one of those
moments for the Jewish, theglobal Jewish community.
I think there's a before and anafter, and the entire global
community will change.
Nicole Kelly (49:36):
I yeah, no, I definitely agree, it's.
I will have to do to say,though, that I am tired of
living through these once in alifetime crazy turning points.
I'm a little, a little over, Iunderstand.
Logan Levkoff (49:47):
It's been exhausting.
Nicole Kelly (49:49):
I'm not even 40 yet and I've dealt with this
9-11 couple wars in October,october 7, january 6.
I'm just I'm done, I need, Iwant like a break end of January
.
So I'm just I'm done, I need, Iwant like a break.
So now we're going to do myactor studio style questions.
So, like I said, these can beshort form or you can read, you
can kind of elaborate a littlebit, should you?
Should, you like?
(50:10):
What is your favorite Yiddishword?
Logan Levkoff (50:14):
For this enough.
Nicole Kelly (50:16):
Can you explain what that means for my listeners
who don't know what that means?
Logan Levkoff (50:19):
It's someone who's constantly scow means it's
basically it's someone who'sconstantly scowling.
It's like a constant, likeresting bitch face.
I feel like modern people wouldcall it resting bitch face, I
don't know Like it was a wordthat my mom used growing up and
I'm just obsessed with it andit's a word that you hear it and
you're like, oh my God, I feelwhat that word is, I could see
it.
Nicole Kelly (50:39):
And that's what I love about Yiddish is like, it's
very like you feel the words.
I love it.
What is your favorite Jewishholiday?
Logan Levkoff (50:49):
My favorite Jewish holiday, kol Nidre.
It's the eve of Yom Kippur.
I find the quiet and the music.
I just I find it magical andpeaceful.
I desperately need that, thatsense of there is a world out
there more important than you,and I get it that night every
year.
Nicole Kelly (51:10):
If you were to have a bat mitzvah today, what
would the theme of the party be?
Zionist Barbie, of course.
Well, if you have another batmitzvah, that course.
Zionist Barbie.
Well, if you have another batmitzvah, that sounds like a fun
party.
(51:30):
I'd like to attend whatprofession other than your own.
Logan Levkoff (51:32):
Would you want to attempt, rabbi, rabbi?
Nicole Kelly (51:36):
If heaven is real.
I haven't gotten that one yet.
If heaven is real and God isthere to welcome you, what would
you like to hear them say?
Logan Levkoff (51:48):
Look who's waiting for you, and I'd like my
grandfather to be standingbehind them.
Nicole Kelly (51:54):
I said something similar.
It's hopefully what that is.
So is there anything else thatyou want to talk about, like a
project or a book?
I mean, we've been.
This is one of my longestinterviews, Do I?
Logan Levkoff (52:07):
have those these days.
I feel like my life isliterally like Logan Levka,
former sex educator, big mouth,jew is really like business
cards.
But, by the way, that beingsaid, like I wouldn't, I truth
be told and and I wouldn't, Iwouldn't change any of it.
(52:27):
I feel like, um, I feel like Iwas kind of made for this, for
this moment.
Um, and I don't mean that inlike an ego maniacal sort of way
, I just feel like I look in themirror these days and I see, I
see my grandparents looking backat me.
I know what my responsibilitiesare.
(52:49):
I feel it deep in my bones andI feel like I've been prepared
for this time.
So, as as challenging as it is,I feel prepared.
I feel prepared and I'll dowhatever I have to do.
Nicole Kelly (53:08):
Well, thank you so much for sharing everything and
you know, giving advice, and Ihad a great time.
Hopefully you did too.
I did so.
This is Nicole Kelly, and thishas been Shebrew in the City ¶¶.
Thank you.
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