"Let's Talk About Sex!" - An Interview with Logan Levkoff (Part 1) - Shebrew in the City

Episode Transcript
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Nicole Kelly (00:02):
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Hi there! This is Nicole Kellyand you're about to listen to a
new episode of Shebrew in theCity.
So I will be talking to DrLogan Levkoff, zionist and sex
expert extraordinaire, andbecause we had so much to talk
about, we're actually releasingtwo episodes.
So tune in for the first partand be sure to subscribe to make
sure that you hear the secondpart as well.
Hi, I'm Nicole Kelly and thisis Shebrew in the City and I'm

(00:54):
very excited today because wehave Dr Logan Levkoff joining us
.
Hi, Dr.
Levkoff.

Logan Levkoff (01:01):
Hi there Thanks for having me!

As a parent and just about your career and how
you got involved with this,because I think I mean maybe I'm
wrong it's pretty.
It's pretty unique field.
It's probably very niche.
I don't.
I don't know any sexualityexperts personally.
You're the first person I'veever talked to.

Well, it's funny.
I mean now there seem to be alot more.
I started in this field whenthere were not that many.
But, interestingly enough, thisfield was really pioneered by
Jews, which is, yeah, I mean,beyond Dr Ruth, like early, like
the sex researchers a lot of.
I mean.
It's super exciting to knowthat.

(01:56):
You know, I think our love oflearning right and human
connection and relationshipsactually finds its way into
sexuality too you're.

You know I'm completely remembering when we
were in berlin we took thisreally interesting.
It was a gay history tour andwe started at the spot.
Yes, that's where it started,in front of that, where the
former building was.
So now you're absolutely right,I completely forgot that.
This, even this, is even morerooted in Judaism than I
realized, and for those of youthat don't know about that,

(02:27):
please Google this gentleman,his organization correct me if
I'm wrong performed some of thefirst sex change operations, did
a lot of research within thetransgender community and gay
community and sexuality ingeneral.
So very groundbreaking.

His name was Magnus Hirschfeld.
Yes, and again, like I thinkthat this was, I mean the fact
that lots of Jewish people inthis space recognize that there
was a lot more than what we had,you know, heard about, learned
about that there was a value inunderstanding a lot more of who
we were as human beings,intimately and otherwise, is

(03:02):
always an exciting thing.
I mean not that that doesn'tget used against us a million
times over too.
But you know I like to look atit from the empowering side.

Yeah, I know, I think, especially with
everything going on now and youknow Jewish history in general,
it's much better to look at itfrom an empowering as opposed to
being oppressed, which is kindof the always joke.
I feel like I've said it on theshow before.

(03:29):
Most Jewish holidays where theytried to kill us.
They didn't we eat.
It's kind of in our DNA.
Yeah, totally.
So let's go ahead and getstarted.
So tell me a little bit aboutwhere you're from, what your
Jewish background was like.
Were you raised religious?
If you were, what denomination?
Did you have a bat mitzvah?

Yeah, I mean.
So it's a great question.
I was raised in a very Jewishenclave in Long Island, the
suburbs of New York City, and Ihave to say it wasn't.
I mean, being Jewish was notunheard of, right.
There was a very sizable Jewishpopulation.
I grew up Reform, reform.

(04:09):
We were not so much observantas much as we were a very
culturally, ethnically and veryZionist Jewish home.
Connection to Israel was alwaysa super important part of who we
were and being Jewish wasalways a certain critical part
of who we were.
My late grandfather was anAmerican Zionist leader.
He was always back and forth toIsrael.
So this part of who we were mylate grandfather was an American
Zionist leader.
He was always back and forth toIsrael.
So this part of who we were wasso empowering and tremendously

(04:34):
important.
I became a bat mitzvah in 1989.
I became confirmed in mysynagogue.
I went on summer trips toIsrael.
I was affirmed in my synagogue.
I went on summer trips toIsrael, summer tours.
I did a Masada program whichwas run by ZOA at the time, and
while all my friends were on thewhat was it called Tennis and

(04:58):
scuba and sea programs, I was onthe leadership training program
Nerd back then, nerd now and Idid March of the Living.

So being Jewish was a huge part of who we were,
not necessarily from anobservant perspective, but I
don't think a day went by whereI wasn't reminded of who we were
as Jews in and out of thecommunity, and I think that's
one of the beautiful thingsabout being Jewish and what I'm
trying to prove with thispodcast and just my life in
general that there are a milliondifferent ways to be Jewish and

(05:27):
you don't have to keep kosher.
You can be in an interfaithrelationship, you can visit
Israel the first time whenyou're 45, but you're still
Jewish and that's valid andimportant.

Yes, very much.
And, by the way, I mean asJewish, as I always felt and
feel and was raised to feel, Ialso married someone who wasn't
born Jewish.

Yeah.

And I think that that's such a big conversation
to have and people make so manyassumptions about interfaith
couples, but the truth is myhusband is not just celebrates,
has embraced, has become Jewishand, by the way, being married
to me, who's a fairly outspokenJew, I mean, I think it takes a

(06:11):
pretty, pretty strong, confidentpartner committed to the cause.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I am in the same boat.
Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm in thesame boat.
So, like I completelyunderstand, like my daughter
goes to a Jewish day school andmy husband's name is Patrick
Kelly.
So I feel like it's no you knowsecret where his cultural
background is from, though he'salso Greek as well.
There's like he's light anddark, white, as he says he's all

(06:36):
shades of European.
But yeah, no, it is.
It is definitely, you know, avalid thing that I think a lot
of people are, you know, kind ofscared, or you know a valid
thing that I think a lot ofpeople are, you know, kind of
scared or, you know, don'treally want to talk about,
because for a long time I thinkinterfaith relationships, even
if the spouse converted, werekind of I don't want to say
taboo, but people were judged,you know.

(06:56):
Or there was kind of like thislow, low level of like well,
so-and-so converted for you know, to marry so-and-so.
And you know, I was alwaystaught that converts are
supposed to be kind of laudedover people who are born Jewish
because they chose to be Jewish.

Yes, I love it when someone says that they
converted.
My response is welcome and tellme why?

Yeah, tell me.
Yeah, I want to know your story.
Forget mine, tell me yours.
One of the cancers at oursynagogue is a convert, so his
episode came out last week andit was really interesting to
talk about him.
And he converted, along withhis husband, and one of the
things they first bonded overwas the idea of wanting to
convert to Judaism.
And I feel like I want to do awhole series on interfaith
relationships and different typeof interfaith relationships,

(07:43):
but kind of magical.
Yes.

It's amazing.
It really it's, and especiallywith the way, I think, the world
looks at faith these days,particularly in the United
States.
Why would we ever want peoplenot to embrace Judaism,
especially as an interfaithcouple?

or partnership.

There's an organization, the idea that you
have to write people off, likethat's ridiculous.
Being exclusionary doesn't help.

There's an organization that you have to
write people off, like that'sridiculous, yeah, and being
exclusionary doesn't help.
There's an organization called18 Doors.
I see a lot on social mediathat they do a lot of interfaith
relationship work, whether it'slike spouses converting or
multi-faith households orspouses that are raising Jewish
children but they aren't Jewish.
Because there's so many it'sit's there's so many different
recipes when it comes tointerfaith relationships and how
that works out.
I want to kind of veer off asecond.

(08:27):
You mentioned doing the March ofthe Living, which is something
that's super interesting to mebecause I haven't told you this,
but one of the things is I'minterested in going back to
school and getting my master'sand doctorate in Holocaust
studies, so kind of combiningthat with what I do, owning a
tour company and maybe likeevery quarter, taking a group
over and like a March of theLiving style thing.

(08:48):
So for those of you that aren'tfamiliar with March of the
Living, I know we mentioned iton a previous episode, but would
you kind of explain what thatis and what your experience was
like?

yes, so in.
I have to be honest, I don'tknow if all the details are
still the same these days.

Well, programs are changing yearly, so you know.

When I was 18, I had just turned 18,.
March of the Living isbasically a trip that starts out
in Poland where we visitedconcentration camps, which was
brutal and hard.
Concentration camps, which wasbrutal and hard and still to
this day, despite the fact thatI am, you know, 30 years beyond

(09:34):
the age of 18, still one of thehardest things I've ever done in
my entire life.
We were in Poland, we saw thecamps, we experienced
anti-Semitism, walking aroundPoland, quite frankly, and it
was an incredibly hard week, andwe wound up doing the reverse
Auschwitz to Birkenau walk.
The March of the Living.
And then we spend the secondweek in Israel for Yom

(09:57):
Ha'atzmaut, to celebrateindependence, to celebrate
freedom and really see thejourney, live the journey.
That's how I remember goingwith a group of teens, some of
whom I knew, many whom I didn'tknow, who shared in this very,
very critically important and,at the same time, brutally hard

(10:17):
experience and, to be perfectlyhonest, for a long time after I
wasn't entirely sure why I didit.
That's how hard I found it tobe, because it wasn't like I was
someone who didn't know theHolocaust, I wasn't a denier, I
knew, and it reinforced so manyof the things I had already
believed.
And it's interesting, I think Ican circle back.

(10:40):
I almost can do this weird.
It's connected to today.
Um, because post October 7th, Iwas offered an opportunity by
the consulate to go see the, thefootage from the 7th, the 47
minutes, uh, and I, I called my,I called my teenagers first.

And.

I said to my, my son, who's in college.
I said I was offered thisopportunity.
I really don't know if I shoulddo it.
I have so many mixed feelings.
You know I'm not the one thatneeds to see it.
I believe it.
I've seen a lot and in his verywise almost 19 years he said to
me Mom, how do we fightatrocities if we don't bear

(11:24):
witness to them?
That was literally the quotethat came out of his mouth.

And I just thought and he's 19.
He's so wise.

I just thought and I thought, oh shit, I mean,
yes, yes, you're right, but itchanged the way.
I have to be honest.
It changed the way I now lookback on March of the Living to
really validate how importantthat experience was, despite how
hard I found it to be.
So, yeah, I mean our teenagerscan clearly teach us.

I mean my daughter .
You know I understand like athird of what she says and I
still feel like I learned thingsfrom her.
So it's nice to know that thatcontinues.
But it is so important.
That's one of the things I'mlike.
I feel like we have like awhole shelf of Holocaust books
at our house.
I just bought five more for apaper I'm writing.
But it is important and it'shard and it's difficult.
And you know, going to Auschwitzand Dachau, we did this on our

(12:13):
fifth year anniversary tripbecause that's how much of a
history nerd I am I dragged myhusband through Central Europe
on like a World War II historytrip.
It is important and you knowthey do.
I know because I talked toanother guest you can, as an
adult, go.
So if this is something you'reinterested in doing and I'm
obviously a few years away fromdoing it myself and you don't
want to go with me, or you canwait until I get my master's,

(12:36):
but if you're interested indoing this and you're listening,
they do have programs foradults and they organize stuff
through through groups as well,or you can message me and I can
give you suggestions on anitinerary, because you know, I
think it's something a lot ofpeople I know are interested in
doing, but they're like it'sreally really heavy and really
really hard.
But I completely agree withwhat you said.
It is.

But you know, it's interesting because I think
that part of why I felt like,oh, I don't know why I did it
and I don't know why I did itand I don't mean that in a
negative way I think it wasbecause I assumed, clearly
wrongfully, that the world waspast vicious anti-Semitism.
I agree, there's, yeah, there'sa story.

(13:16):
I worked, I think that I and itwasn't and it wasn't and I was.
I was absolutely wrong.
I mean, more people should haveexperienced March of the Living
, people who weren't me, becausemaybe, maybe we'd be different.

No, I'm right on there, I'm right there with you
Between, because I used to be anactor.
Between shows I was working ata retail store and there was an
older lady who was retired andwas just like working for fun
and she mentioned somethingabout the ADL and volunteering
with them and I was like, oh,it's that.
And she told me and I said, oh,we don't need things like that
anymore because anti-Semitismisn't an issue like it used to
be.
And I feel like I was very, youknow, naive in that and

(13:52):
obviously now I know thatorganizations fighting
anti-Semitism are superimportant.
So I read on your website youstarted working as a sexuality
educator back when you were 15.
And from the date you just gaveme from your bot meds for this
was kind of in the height of theHIV crisis, which is one of the
things that you mentioned thatyou educated people on.

(14:14):
So what?
How did you get involved withthat?
And I know AIDS at the time wasvery taboo.
People were still.
There was a lot of, you know,people who didn't really
understand how it wastransmitted and they thought
maybe only gay people could getit and it was a whole.
You know, it was a whole thingfor those of you that are too
young to remember this.

Right it's.
It's happens to be a reallyinteresting story and speaks
volumes about who my parents are.
Interestingly enough, it wasn'tlike I was raised in a hyperal
house, I have to say.
I mean, we weren't conservative, but it wasn't like everyone
was running around talking aboutsex and bodies and
relationships.

(14:52):
But, for whatever reason, inthe late 80s, early 90s, hiv was
finally being discussed as avirus that didn't discriminate,
didn't care about who you werehaving sex with race,
orientation, gender, ethnicity.
It was a virus.
It just needed a means oftransmission.
And, for whatever reason, myparents became super involved in

(15:15):
HIV and AIDS fundraising andeducation.
I think because it was that oneamazing blip in time when sex
came with life or deathconsequences At least that's how
it was framed back then and soall of these people who had
never spoken about sex beforewith their young people had to
start talking.

(15:36):
And so my parents' way ofgiving back and, you know, being
generous with their time andtheir voice and advocacy was
that they got involved in HIVand AIDS education.
And I came home after schoolone day and there were condoms
and bananas on my dinner tableand my parents said this is how

(15:58):
you use a condom and next weekyou go to peer training to teach
others.
My mom and her best friendstarted our town's first HIV and
AIDS awareness program andtraining program with our local
hospital.

Wow so.

I was basically part of the pilot program and
what I found was I was reallygood at talking about sex.
I mean, I wasn't having any,but I was really good at talking
about things that typicallymade people uncomfortable, and I
think that it.
I think it came from beingraised with a lot of ego and and

(16:33):
this, this belief that I reallycould do whatever it is that I
wanted to do, and I had enoughconfidence to think you know
what, who cares if you're 15,you can do this, and I did, and
what it wound up doing for mewas giving me or highlighting my
skill set, which is difficultconversations, which have

(16:55):
evolved slightly over the years,but I'm really good at talking
about things that make peoplecringe or blush or both.

It's a good, it's a good quality.
I think you know theseconversations are necessary.
At what point did you decidethat you wanted to go from kind
of just being like a peervolunteer and putting condoms on
bananas in front of you know,fellow teenagers, to making this
a career?
When did you realize you couldmake this a career?

I'm still surprised every day.
I mean, I made it occur.
I'm not really sure what I'mdoing, so I went.
Okay, so I'm going to say thisbecause I feel a lot of shame
over this right now, but I wentto the University of
Pennsylvania, which right now isnot great for.
Jews, which is so horrifyingbecause it was such a wonderful
place to be Jewish when I wasthere.

(17:42):
And now I'm afraid that if Iwas walking Locust Walk with
some of these protests, that I'dbe arrested for sure, like
there's no way I would be ableto contain myself, but it wasn't
like that then.
So I went to Penn and I foundmyself listening to my friends
and all of us were.
We weren't.

(18:03):
The decisions we were makingabout sex were not that great,
and it wasn't the no condom, noprotection kind of poor decision
.
It was no equity, it was nopleasure, it was not
understanding our own needs forintimacy or the kind of
relationship or not relationshipthat we wanted.
And I thought, you know, therehas to be a better way.

(18:24):
And when, at the time, when Iwas looking for role models and
again, this is very early,internet, this is dial up, aol
and Netscape Dr Ruth was aroundand look, our field could not be
our field without Ruth, forsure.
But also there wasn't a lot ofconversation.
There weren't a lot of peoplespeaking candidly and
empoweringly about sex,particularly to girls and women,

(18:46):
and so I just started to dowhat I thought was missing, and
so I started to write thesecolumns for the paper and our
school's first anonymous sexadvice column, and I started
doing more peer education oncampus.
And then I had I thought I wasgoing to law school because I
had to put my big mouth to gooduse.
And there was an opportunityback then.

(19:08):
Penn had no longer has it, buthad a master's and a PhD program
in human sexuality educationand I had the opportunity to
graduate early and matriculateearly into a master's program.
And I called home and I said solisten, I think I'm going to
graduate early and start thismaster's program.
And my parents said that'sgreat In what I said human

(19:29):
sexuality education.
They said great, what are yougoing to do with that?

Very very typical Jewish parents.

I remember what I said.
I said I have to be honest, Ihave no idea.
I have no idea, but I knew thatit was where my passions were.
But I knew that it was where mypassions were, so I had to
figure out how to make it work.

And to this day, I'm still shocked that I made it
work.
It's nice that I feel like theywere supportive, but they were
also you know, again,stereotypical parents being like
.
But how are you going to make aliving doing this?

And it's hard and it is hard and now this field
is more crowded.
There are a lot of voices.
It's driven a lot by socialmedia.
It's not easy.
I recognize that I came up inthis space at a really
fortuitous time early in theworld of public sexuality
education and educators, and Ido not take that for granted at

(20:24):
all.

It was.
It was beshared to the timingof all of this, one could say so
, as far as educational steps,you mentioned that you there was
a master's PhD program.
Were there any like externshipsor internships that you had to
do or that were required forpart of the program, like if
someone was interested in doingthis today, even though you know
it's changed a little bit sinceyou were in college?

(20:46):
If they're interested in beingan expert in human sexuality,
what would be their educationalsteps?

It's a good, it's a very good question, because
there are a lot ofnon-traditional paths to go as
well as traditional paths.
So my path was I did mybachelor's, I did my master's
and then I a part of my master'swas I had to design and
implement a sexuality educationprogram, develop an entire
curriculum and implement it,which was incredibly difficult

(21:16):
and incredibly fulfilling at thesame time.
It's some of the hardest workthat I've ever ever done, and I
matriculated right away aftergetting my master's into a
doctoral program at NYU, alsobatting a thousand in the
antisemitism department.

You know, I feel like it's just all colleges now
Berkeley, you know particularlyand I wound up.

Really, the reason why I wound up going into
a doctoral program so early wasthat I knew I was young in a
field where I wanted to talkabout sex, and I wanted to talk
about sex publicly and I neverwanted someone to look at me and
say, okay, little girl, whatmakes you think you're an expert
?
Which is literally why I justbounced from one academic
program into another, but I didwind up teaching that whole time

(22:01):
.
So I was working, I dideverything from.
I was implementing lots of probono sex ed work.
I had a brief internship atPlayboy magazine.
I was volunteering for theanonymous HIV and AIDS testing
site.

(22:21):
I did as much as I could todevelop a whole host of skills
that I thought were going toeventually be important to what
I was doing.
But nowadays there are a lot ofother programs and
organizations, like, for example, I'm part of a program called
Modern Sex Therapy Institutesthat has professional training

(22:41):
and certification programs foreducation, for counseling, for
therapists.
So it's not always about goingthe traditional academic route.
There are still ways to developthose skills without doing an
official college-related programGotcha.
That's the good news.
There are a lot of differentarenas these days.

That's helpful because I feel like a
traditional college trajectoryis not a fit for necessarily
everybody.
You know, if they want to getinvolved.
So we talked about this.
What exactly do you do as asexuality expert?
So, if someone is interested intalking about sex, they like,
like you said, having difficultconversations, but they're
curious as to how to make this acareer.

(23:21):
What are your options, you know?
In regard?
To this if you don't want to bea sex ed teacher.
Well, the funny thing is, I amWell I guess, when I think sex
ed, I think of, like the weirdawkward gym teacher in ninth
grade.

That's me, that's me.
Just I'm not awkward and I'mnot the gym teacher.

I would have appreciated you much more than
the sex ed teacher I had when I.

So that is that.
It's funny.
You say that that that isliterally what I do.
So I I mean there are lots ofdifferent roles under the
sexuality educator umbrella butI design and implement sex ed
programs in a lot of schools,primarily in Manhattan and
Brooklyn independent, public,secular, specialized, the
religious, the works, thereligious, the works.

(24:11):
I'm in different schools everyday.
My youngest students areprobably seven or eight, my
oldest students have been 91.
So yes, I am the gym teacher.
Basically that's my gig.

I am the gym teacher, I think you're a little
more qualified than the gymteacher, though I hope so.
Yes, Not just educationally butexperience wise, because you
said you've just been in alldifferent facets of this, but
hopefully you know.

It gives me hope that when my daughter is
learning about this stuff inschool it's not the awkward gym
teacher who makes everyoneuncomfortable Not really I have
to say most well, maybe Ishouldn't say that A lot of
schools are savvy enough to hirepeople who, first of all, are

(25:02):
not the classroom teacher,because no classroom teacher who
grades on grammar or whateverbook that kids are reading for
the week really wants to have tonavigate conversations around
sexuality, particularly whenthey're not trained to.
And I think that a lot ofschools are understanding that,
developmentally, content wise,there are very unique skills
that one needs to have and a lotof education, and you can't
just say, okay, girls to oneside, boys on the other.
Here's your information.
I mean, it's completelyunethical and not realistic, but

(25:23):
also it doesn't work that way.

I feel like in certain parts of the country
there are some schools thatstill do that or worse.
I feel like in certain parts ofthe country there are some
schools that still do that orworse.
They're just like they don'ttalk about it.
And, as we know, abstinence,you know, only sex education
does not work at all.

No, that it does not.
And yet there are many statesthat are still taking lots of
funding for abstinence onlyuntil marriage education.
My take on it is abstinence isan option, sure, but at some
point in life one makes thedecision to share their body in

(25:58):
some capacity with another humanbeing.
Probably should have someskills, probably should have
some knowledge, probably shouldunderstand how to navigate
outcomes and just understand howbodies work and feelings and
what sexuality is and how it'scritically important throughout
our lives.
We're sexual beings from birthto death.
It's not this magical switchthat gets turned on at some

(26:18):
culturally appropriate time.
It exists throughout our lives.
So once we start othering itlike it's this really big, scary
conversation, that's when wecreate more guilt and shame
around it.
If we make it a subject likeeverything else, it's much
easier to navigate.

Why do you think that now, even now, you know, in
what we would consider likeliberal enclaves, sex is
considered a bad or taboosubject?
You know, I understand kind ofin certain parts of the country
or in certain eras where peopledidn't talk about this, but why
is it that people are afraid totalk, to even say the word sex
or talk about sex?

I've never really been able to answer that
question succinctly.
I think part of it is if youdon't have models for how to
talk about these issues, itbecomes really hard to model it
for other people.
So oftentimes, instead ofengaging in these potentially
complicated but reallymeaningful and valuable

(27:19):
conversations, we just saynothing and hope that someone
else is going to fill in thegaps.
Inevitably, the people orsources that fill in the gaps
are not the ones we want to fillin the gaps.
Whether it's the kid on theback of the school bus or it's
something typed into Google orwhatever, it never is really
what you want it to be.

(27:42):
I think there is also a fearnews media world where
oftentimes parents and guardiansare basically hit over the head
and told the millions of waysthat they can mess up their kids
.
It winds up becoming for lackof a better term almost
paralyzing that this fear ofmessing up kids stops people

(28:05):
from actually engaging inconversations that are really
important, and we know how tooperate from instinct.
We know that if our kid asks aquestion, the likelihood is
they're thinking about somethingand it deserves an answer.
But if we're wondering whatsomeone and I'll use the word
expert here in quotation- markssome experts said.
I would tell everyone the youngpeople in your life you know

(28:27):
better than anyone else, and soif your young person is talking
about things and you feel likeyou should engage with that, you
should absolutely engage withthat.

So you don't think there's ever too early and you
start talking about sex, like mymom says, because I started
talking like full sentences,like 18 months old or something
ridiculous, and when my sister'sthree years younger than me and
when my mom was pregnant, Iguess I asked where babies come
from, which is like a supercommon gateway question into sex
.
It's like you know, every kidis curious and she told me the

(28:59):
truth and she's very proud ofthat and I'm very proud that she
told me the truth and I waslike, okay, I had no idea what
she was talking about, obviously, but is it ever?
You said, some of your youngerstudents are seven years old.
Is it ever too early to starttalking about sex or body
autonomy or talking about bodyparts with your child?

No, never.
In fact, we should be talkingabout sex and sexuality from
birth, which always is like thisshocking statement that gets
like my, my quote on somehorrible like Reddit page or
something with.
You know all the horriblethings about me, but I mean that
really seriously, because whenwe talk about sex and sexuality,

(29:37):
we're not just talking aboutthe act of having sex.
We're talking about correctnames for body parts, talking
about different types offamilies, talking about consent
right, Like no one is allowed totouch you without you giving
permission and vice versa.
There's so many amazingconversations that we have from
birth on.
I'll kind of speed through anearly story and you should know

(29:59):
that if I share stories about mykids, it's because they've
given me their consent to do so,which is why you'll hear about
one but not the other.
So when my I respect thedecision.
It's important so when my, whenmy son was three uh, he, I was
pregnant with his sister and hesaid to me one day what

(30:22):
ingredients make a baby and Ithought it was the smartest
thing I'd ever heard Likeingredients.
That's so great.
And we we talked very brieflyabout sperm and egg and when
sperm and egg come together theycan create a pregnancy.
And I said people make sperm intheir testicles and you know,
people with uteruses and vulvasand vaginas have eggs in their
ovaries.
And we do use the correct, weuse the word vulva, we use the
word uterus and things like that.

(30:43):
And so he looked at me veryproud and said I have sperm.
And I said, well, not yet, butyou know eventually.
And I looked at him and I saiddo you want to know anything
else?
Do you want to know how theymeet anything?
And he looked at me and said no, I'm good.
Pause, one year.
One year.
Right before bed on a Sundayevening which has been obviously
the best conversations happen,he looks at me and says I had a

(31:07):
thought, I'm going to whisper itin your ear and then we don't
have to talk about it, which isodd, because we talk about
everything.
So already I knew thatsomething was up.
I said, okay, tell me.
And he said, mom, I had thisthought what if daddy put his
penis in your vulva and vagina?
I said, wow, that is, that's agreat thought.
I said we should great thoughtwe totally should talk about it.

(31:28):
That's a great thought.
I said we should great thoughtwe totally should talk about it.
That's a great question.
And so I said to him what madeyou think about this?
And he's like I don't know, Iwas just thinking.
Now I know how he was thinkingabout it because he'd been
watching that Discovery Lifeseries about the mating habits
of sea creatures and plants orwhatever, and I'm sure that

(31:49):
something must have just clicked.
And I said to him I said tell mewhat.
What do you remember from lastyear?
What ingredients make apregnancy?
And he said sperm and egg.
I said do you know sperm andegg typically meet?
And he said no.
I said someone puts their penisinto someone's vulva and vagina
.
I said so, you figured it out.

(32:10):
That's exactly what happenedand he was like beaming with
pride, right?
Oh, I figured that's so great.
I said do you have any otherquestions?
No, amazing, he went to bedCoincidentally at the same time.
My mother happens to call and Iproceed to tell her the
conversation and like anypanicky grandmother.

She's freaking out .
He's going to go to schooltomorrow?

And I said I don't think so, but I'll, you
know, I'll circle back in themorning.
So when Mav got up in themorning, I said listen, I
remember the conversation fromlast night.
Yes, I said I'm so proud thatyou asked me that question.
I said and it's such aprivilege for me to answer it
for you, because there are notlots of opportunities for
parents to get to tell theirkids these things.
So if you ever have questions,always come to me.

(32:55):
I said.
But also, if your friends havequestions and you think you can
answer them, ask me first,because it's really a treat for
parents to have thoseconversations.
And so he's like okay, fine.
I said do you have any otherquestions?
And he looks at me and says no,yes.
I said okay, what's thequestion?
And he looked at me and saidwhen you were a little girl, did

(33:16):
your mom answer all of yourquestions for you?
And to this day, that magicalmoment is basically what I share
with any group that I'mteaching.
Young people just want to knowthat the person they love and
trust unconditionally is goingto be there to answer their
questions.
That is literally it.

(33:37):
It does not matter whether it'sabout someone's penis, it
doesn't matter if it's about youknow how do lucky charms get in
the box?
Like it doesn't matter.
They just want to know, reallylike they just want to know when
they have a question, is thatperson they love going to answer
?
And so anytime someone sayssomeone's too young to hear
information, my answer is that'sbullshit.

(33:59):
There's no such thing as ageappropriateness when it comes to
content.
When we hear that phrasebecause it's a gate, right, it's
there to shut off conversations.
When someone says thatsomething is inappropriate,
that's not a hey, let's talkabout it later, it's a never
talk about it again.
Age appropriateness is supposedto refer to delivery, not

(34:19):
content.
How much you give the rationalefor why you're giving it not
the facts, the facts are thefacts I think that's very wise,
sorry so long.

No, no, no I mean, like I am, I am a, I guess,
newer still, she's gonna bethree um, a newer parent and
this is, you know, helpful to meand hopefully somebody else
listening.
But I, I think that you know,my husband and I have talked
about not really since, likeobviously we're not gonna be
showing my child like porno,slasher films, she's not gonna
be like watching like snufffilms, but like, but we're not

(34:53):
going to stop her, not today, um, but we're probably not ever um
, but we're not going to stopher from seeing things.
And you know we talk about thisamongst our, you know, my
friends.
Sometimes it's like some of thestuff we watch we had no idea
what the content was, and likewe watched like Grease the movie
, like so not like appropriatematerial, you know, I guess you

(35:15):
know material for small children, but like you know, singing
songs about like virginity whenyou're seven, when you don't
even know what that is, but likeif you don't make a big deal
about it.

I am a 1995 Madonna, like a virgin in the
car front seat of the cargeneration.

So I do, I do understand, I'm sure that it's
the way I feel If you don't makea big deal about it, they don't
make a big deal about it, Likeif you're just like yeah, this
is what it is, and I feel likethere's a lot of parents that
are a little too restrictive.
But you know, I'm not to judgeanyone else's parenting.

What would be your.
But again, people do getinformation, they find
information, they always findinformation.
So it's just an importantreminder that if you don't share
something, they will get theinformation they're not going to
forget.
No they just won't get it fromyou.

I know and I would prefer certain information come
from me, because I know it'sright information, because
there's so many, so many sources.
Now, what would be, your adviceto parents who are maybe a
little I don't like the wordprudish, maybe a little more shy
about talking about sex ingeneral, even in their own life.
So having conversations withtheir children is something
they're a little nervous about.
I mean, is it one of thosethings that you know they?

(36:26):
They kind of direct them toproper professional information
like books, or have them talk toa professional, or should they
have those conversationsthemselves?

So it's an excellent question.
I'm a big believer, especiallywith young people, in owning the
discomfort that you have andwhy you have it.
So to be able to say to a kidwho asks you a question or you
want to broach a subject withthem and say look, I want to
talk to you about something thatis really important, but I have

(36:57):
to be honest, I'm going to havea little hard time with it,
because my parents never talkedto me about these things or my
information was so bad and Iwant to make sure that I do it
right for you.
I think that's a reallyhumbling experience, and also
that vulnerability goes a longway with a young person right
when, all of a sudden, you're onthe same level, you're willing

(37:18):
to learn together and you getthe sense that someone is
pushing themselves outside oftheir comfort zone because it's
for your well-being.
So, yeah, I mean yes, you canalways go to books and there are
some incredible educationalwebsites, but that doesn't mean
you shouldn't try to have thoseconversations too, but explain
why it's hard and why you'regoing to do it better this time.

I like that advice .
So you have a son and adaughter.
Was the discussion with themabout sex different because of
their gender identity, or was itkind of just the same talk?

No, we have no double standards in this house.
What is good for one is goodfor everyone.
The messages are exactly thesame Empowering bodily autonomy
focused, pleasure focused,having a voice.
Yeah, no double standards here.

I like that.
I like that.
The egalitarian thought processbehind sex education.

Well, in my professional and personal
experience, no good things havecome from mixed messages or
double standards.
It's just I've never I did.
I was teaching eighth gradersyesterday.
We were talking about thesexual double standard and I
said challenge me, tell mesomething good that has come
from being told that there aredifferent roles for people based

(38:40):
on gender, different roles forsex and dating, and bodies and
bodily autonomy and voice.
Tell me what positive thingshave come out of this.
And no one could come up withsomething positive.
So to me I feel like that's awinning argument to say the
double standard is bad, even ifit's done with the best of
intentions, which it often is toprotect people.

(39:01):
But in that attempt to protectpeople, we wind up actually
harming them more.

Makes sense.
That makes a lot of sense.
What are some of the ways thatyou think you know sex?
Maybe in general, andespecially the way we talk about
it, have changed since you werea teenager.

Oh, there's so much.

I know it's a bit of a loaded question.
There's a lot.

No, that's okay.
I mean sex.
Sex and talking about sexobviously as a teenager in the
90s was very scary, right.
It was very fear-based.
It was driven by prevention ofHIV and other sexually
transmitted infections and theway in which people taught they
would show you horrible pictures.

I remember the blue waffle picture.

Oh, and that wasn't even real.

I know If you took sex in the 90s.
You saw that picture and it washorrifying.

Yeah, and not right and Photoshopped and
manipulated yeah, terrible, thewhole thing was terrible.
And also, you're never going tosee those things, that's.
The other problem is that thestrategy backfires because most
STIs have no symptoms untilsomething has progressed for an
extended period of time, if theyhave any symptoms.
So now, all of a sudden,everyone's thinking well, of
course I'll know if someone hassomething because I'm going to

(40:12):
see it.
And the answer is no, you'renot.
And again, of course, there wasa lot of shame and stigma built
into that conversation.
Obviously, people get sexuallytransmitted infections.
It's in how we navigate it, adisclosure that really makes all
of the all of the difference.
So I think that the strategiesfor how we talked about sex have
changed.
Obviously, the language andconversations around gender and

(40:34):
gender identity and sexualorientation have become far more
expansive Conversations aboutpleasure, discussions of the
word clitoris, which neverhappened when I was a young
person, ever, never.
Masturbation was only talkedabout as a male thing, which I
think is highly problematic andobviously untrue, and even the

(40:55):
conversations about reproduction.
There are lots of differentways that people can create
families these days that are notsolely based on like someone's
penis being in someone's vulvaand vagina.
So there is that, and then, ofcourse, all different kind of
relationship structures.
So I think everything haschanged, thankfully.
Yeah For the good.

I would agree.
I mean, I'm a little bityounger than you but I feel like
just talking to you and thenliterally bringing in an expert
is a big enough change that itmakes me happy that my daughter
will have an actual betterexperience with that, because it
was scary and like my schooltaught sex education, but they
had this woman come in and shewas the I'm worth waiting for

(41:35):
woman and she told us thishorrible.

I don't know if you've heard of this.

She told us this horror, if I told you this story
, patrick.
She told us this story abouthow she was basically sexually
promiscuous as um, like a youngwoman, and she got chlamydia so
many times, uh, that shebasically was sterile and that
she had gotten pregnant you knowwhether it was a relationship

(42:00):
or you know kind of a just likea passing sexual experience and
she had gotten an abortion.
So she's like I aborted theonly child I'd ever be able to
have, and and it was one ofthose things that, like she'd
ask like, well, if you thinkyou're worth waiting for, come
to me at the end of the classand say I'm worth waiting for.
And it was like this weird peerpressure thing and like this

(42:21):
horrible story about this woman.
And I'm sure it was true.
But this is not, that's not anormal experience for most
people.

I would also.
I would also challenge a lot ofthat.
So first of all, I hate theword promiscuous.
It's so judgy and it onlydescribes women and again what's
?
Promiscuous, like what does toomuch sex mean?
Like that's a personal decisionand often based on only rumors
and gossip and not actual fact.
And the other thing is is thatshe still could have had lots of
sexual partners and if she'dused protection she would have
gotten chlamydia or given it tosomeone else I don't know,

(42:52):
obviously, who transmitted it tohim.
But again, there were ways tonavigate that, yes, and if she
had felt empowered about hersexuality, she would have gone
to get tested and been able to.
In this case you could cure it.
You know, cure whatever it isthat you have which.
So it did not end up withpelvic inflammatory disease,

(43:14):
which winds up being in causinginfertility, like there.
There was another path.

Yes, that wasn't discussed, though.
That was not part of thenarrative.
It wasn't part of the let's usethis experience as a learning
experience that I should haveused a condom and this is why
this happened.
It was like, no, don't have sex.
It was a whole thing.
It was a whole thing.
How do you think that socialmedia has changed the way adults

(43:39):
view sex and teenagers oryounger children view sex?
This is kind of like mytwo-part question, like my
husband and I always joke abouthow hard it was to watch porn
when we were younger, and thatkids these days have it so easy
because if you don't have like aparental block on a computer or
a phone, you can just pull upPornhub and it's there.
Where, back in the day, it waslike this bad videotape someone

(44:02):
stole from their father.

So how I remember when my neighbor got Playboy.
Well, it actually wasn't myneighbor, it was my girlfriend
in sixth grade and it was cableand it was only on like the
whole screen was scrambled untilthe hours of like 4 am.
And we used to like sit and tryto like squeeze our eyes in
between the static.

Yeah, that was my experience.
And then I remember like HBOwould have like very soft core
stuff like late at like,starting at like 10 on cable.
And that was, yes, real sex andwhat was that?
Undressed was on MTV.
Undressed was a big deal, whichwas, you know, it was like old
school but like it's so easy.

(44:46):
Now, and you know, my husbandwill sometimes be scrolling
through Instagram and there'sliterally somebody's bottom,
like naked bottom on theinternet and it's like it's just
so readily available, or boobsor whatever.
It's just so readily available.
Has this changed the way?
First of all, adults view sexand children and teenagers view

(45:07):
sex because it is so out thereand it's so readily available.

if you are curious, so yes and no, that's
not really clear.
But obviously having access tosexual material makes certain
questions unnecessary to ask,right, or certain things that
you're curious about seeing.
They make it very accessibleand so certain personal

(45:33):
questions or desires orfantasies get answered by a
visual very quickly.
The flip side of that and Ithink it is a, it is a I'm going
to say it is a problem actuallyfor young people I am very
concerned, going to say it is aproblem actually for young
people.
I am very concerned about thelack of sexual intimacy that

(45:55):
young people are having.
So even pre-COVID rates of likelate adolescent, early adults,
the amount of sexual encountersor intimacy they were having was
already on the downward trendand obviously post-COVID that
continued.
And I'm really afraid that ouryoung people are losing the
ability to develop intimacyskills, which require taking

(46:19):
emotional risks, you know,figuring out boundaries,
understanding your body, how tocommunicate that with someone
else, all of those amazingmilestone moments that people
are supposed to have.
I think that we often forgetthat the hallmark of adolescence
is exploring and expressingyour sexuality and that's a huge
part of it.
And now, because young peopleand adults too for that matter

(46:39):
have access to so much right.
It feels a lot safer to a lotof people to engage in a screen
without engaging in personalface-to-face intimacy and
connection.
So, as great as access and turnon and stimulation may be, the
flip side of it is that youdon't develop actual human

(47:02):
communication intimacy skills.

So you think that's what the downturn is
caused by is the fact that youcan just pull out your phone and
pull out something.

I think that's a part of it.
I think that's a part of it,and that we rely a lot on our
phones to communicate as opposedto using our voice or face to
face, or we rely on emojis orweird grammar which is which, by
the way, it makes me sound old,and that's fine and we can do
all of those things.
But also there are certainthings we have to learn to do

(47:35):
face-to-face.
Yeah Right, talking aboutsomeone's boundaries, talking
about pleasure, talking aboutwhat feels good, talking about
protection, all of that stuff isnot just something you're going
to type out in a text message.
Yeah it's a little impersonaland oftentimes what happens is
young people feel if you'regoing to type out in a text
message.
Yeah, it's a little impersonaland oftentimes what happens is
young people feel if they'regoing to be perceived as too

(47:56):
awkward they won't have thatconversation at all, and that's
unfortunate.

I think talking about you talk a lot about
pleasure and bodily autonomy andI feel like, as much as sex was
explained to me as a teenager,the idea of it being pleasurable
was not something because, likemy mom loves romance novels and
she's kind of passed that loveon to me and like never
discouraged me from readingthose.
But at one point I'm sorry ifyou're listening, mom she said
she's like this is not what it'slike.
Like don't get this idealizedversion.

(48:26):
And I think what she was tryingto say was not every sexual
encounter is going to be anorgasmic, life-changing
experience like it is in thesebooks.
But I took it as not all likesex isn't always good, which is
sometimes true.
You know we've all, as adults,had bad and good sexual
experiences.
But I feel like the idea oftrying to find my own pleasure

(48:49):
as a sexual being is somethingthat I came into, you know, in
my in my 30s.
I think it's something a lot ofwomen, you know, I've had
friends who said that they weresexually active for like a
decade before they have an organof orgasm because they didn't
take ownership of that Right.

Well, and probably didn't even know again.
If the lens through which youlearn about sex is male, right,
that it's about, you know, anerect penis, yeah, and it's just
about the vagina, Like that'snot really going to do it for
you, yeah, For most people.
Right, there has to be otherkinds of intimate touch and

(49:24):
stimulation, but we often don'ttalk about it and instead what
happens is we perpetuate thisvicious cycle of lack of
pleasure because we start tothink okay, my experience isn't
like what I read, isn't likewhat I saw in the movie.
So there either is somethingwrong with the person I'm with
that they're not doing it right,or there's something wrong with
me.
And if I think there'ssomething wrong with me, I'm not
saying a damn thing.
Right, Like I'm not going tosay anything.

(49:55):
I'm going to go through themotions.
I might sound like I think sexis supposed to sound like,
because I want the other personto feel good and not even
realize that all bodies have thecapacity for pleasure and we
should all be able to accessthat.
But unless we learn that early,it's, it's something we don't
figure out until we've wasted alot of time, unfortunately.

Yes, and some people never figure that out,
which is, I think, really,really sad.
Kind of pivoting back totalking about the internet, a
little bit.
What is your advice to parentswho want to make sure their
children are being sexuallyresponsible on the internet?
Because it's not just about nowwatching sexual things, it's
sometimes now sending sexualthings and I feel like you know,

(50:30):
once it's out there, it's outthere and you can delete stuff
and it's still out there andyour future boss, your future
husband, your futuremother-in-law, you know, can see
that and you know not that Ithink you should necessarily be
like ashamed of your body orwanting to share things with
other people, but you know, ifyou're 15, maybe sending a nude
photo to your boyfriend is notthe best choice and what would

(50:53):
be you know your advice toparents about how to talk about
that, because I know mydaughter's school does like a,
like a unit on how to be aresponsible citizen of the
Internet, but I don't know ifthey talk about being a
responsible citizen, yeah.
I don't know if they talk aboutbeing sexually responsible on
the Internet.
My husband's like first of all,it's illegal.
He literally just raised likefirst of all, that's illegal, it

(51:13):
is illegal.

I mean, there is that, there is that piece of it.
So the first thing I want tosay is it is not a surprise that
young people use every avenueavailable to them to express
their sexuality and,realistically speaking, it is no
different than when I was ayoung person and we had these
chat lines and we would all callthese phones.
It was like pre-AOL chat.

(51:35):
It was used to be on the phoneand all these teenagers were on
the phone.
I mean, I told people I was, myname was Daisy, I had like
quadruple D breasts, like I, allof the things, all of the
things.
I wasn't clearly, but I but Iwas trying to find ways to test

(51:58):
and express myself in a way thatfelt safe, right, and through
the phone was how, how you knowwas was the avenue in which to
do that back then.
So it is not surprised that weuse the avenues available to us.
The difference is the sense ofpermanence, right, that there
are outcomes that are very hard,if manageable at all, from
putting yourself out therevisually and sometimes even with

(52:21):
your words, right online.
You cannot take those thingsback.
So there is a legal issue,obviously, if you are under the
age of 18, it's considered childpornography, and our laws have
not caught up with technology,so that in and of itself is a
reason to say no, but again, notbecause you wanting to share
yourself with someone else is abad thing.
It's just because the system isnot set up to protect you.

(52:43):
And the other piece of it is tothink about the idea that no
person who really cares orrespects you and vice versa
wants to put you in a positionwhere something harmful could
happen because of somethingyou've asked them to do, because
it's not always about someonebeing vengeful with you.

(53:04):
Sometimes we just accidentallytext something to the wrong
person, or someone picks up ourphone.
It's not always deliberate.
Sometimes it's accidental.

Or you post it yourself.
Chris Evans posted a nakedpicture to Instagram on accident
.

A couple of years ago.
Right there you go.
So I think it's not shaming thedesire to do it or the concept
as much as it is.
The outcomes are really hardfor a young person to manage and
, by the way, the outcomes arereally hard for an adult to
manage too.
It's not just about you know,you're a teenager, so don't do
it, it's also it's hard.

(53:38):
Intimacy is supposed to beintimate and oftentimes we don't
want every person we knowseeing all aspects of our body
or how we share it with anotherperson.

So kind of pivoting from talking about
talking to teens and ourchildren, I want to talk about
adult relationships a little bit.
I noticed on your website youwrote a book called how to Get
your Wife to have Sex with you,which is my favorite book title,
probably ever.
What is this book about?

The book was designed as a first-person
narrative and, yes, it is verymuch written as I speak, so it's
supposed to be funny and alittle snarky, and also very
honest too Of the things that weneed to do inside and outside
of the bedroom in order toachieve intimacy at some point.

(54:31):
And again, we are partnersregardless of your gender or
sexual orientation.
Like sexual pleasure, sexualintimacy, frequency, success,
whatever satisfaction is notjust dependent on one person.
It's certainly dependent on theentire unit, but it was a fun
way to talk about the thingsthat lots of women often say,

(54:55):
that in this case, heterosexualmen don't often get.

I mean, and sometimes it's difficult to say
those things because you're like, I don't feel like doing this,
but it's really because of X, yand Z and you don't even realize
it.
So there is, I think, animportant space to talk about,
and I love that you said outsideof the bedroom too, because
sometimes if someone's beendoing something that makes you
feel like you can't beemotionally open with them, but

(55:21):
it's because of you know, thefact that they don't want to
listen to how your day was.

it's not related to sex you know it's not related
to sex, you know, is also justas valid and as important as
well, right, right, because it'sabout intimacy, it's about
feeling connected, and there'splenty of sex that takes place
that has nothing to do withintimate or emotional connection
, and that type of sex is greattoo.
But sometimes if you feeldisconnected, it's really hard

(55:47):
to translate that to.
I would really love to jumpinto bed with you when you have
not cared one iota aboutanything that has happened today
.
So it's just.
I mean again, it's designed tobe published, like right before.

(56:10):
My husband said to me don't youthink I should read the book?
I said I mean, I would havethought you would have read it
already.
Yes, that's probably a goodidea.
You should read the book.
And so we were.
I was going on like the I thinkit was the Today Show the next
day.
He said, just so you know thatif this book doesn't work, I'm
going to call in and say thatyou lied.
Know that if this book doesn'twork, I'm going to call in and
say that you lied.
I said I'm not worried, it'sgoing to work, don't worry.

(56:31):
Don't worry, honey, it'll work.

Your husband sounds funny.

I mean he has to have a sense of humor being
married to someone like me.

otherwise, I think a sense of humor is important
in marriage in general becausewe had to, do not like, had to.
It was a a pleasure, thispremarital counseling with the
cantor who married us, and oneof the things she did say was
you know, need to be honest witheach other about sex, which I
thought was, first of all, likehearing a member of the the
clergy say sex.
I was like oh my god oh, like,um, which is, you know, really

(57:02):
great advice.
But she's also like you need tobe able to laugh with each
other, like that's such animportant part, I think, of any
relationship sexual, non-sexualbeing able to laugh with each
other, like that's such animportant part, I think, of any
relationship sexual, non-sexualbeing able to find humor,
because life is hard and ifyou're going to be serious with
each other all the time, it'sjust not going to be fun, right?
So, speaking of books, what isyour thought on this five lung
languages that has taken overthe culture?

(57:22):
I have personal thoughtsbecause, but I want to hear what
you think before I kind of talkabout that.

You know I'm not really one to.
There's only one book I've everreally judged, and it was when
I was really young.
There was a book called theRules oh my God, I've heard
about this.

I've heard about this, I've heard about the rules
.

It was a guide for women to find a man to marry
.
And I was so hard, I was sohorrified.

It was like pretend to be someone else
through your entire relationship, even after you're married.

It was bad, the whole thing was bad and it was
all it was like goal oriented toget married.
I'm like what, and not as ifnothing else mattered.
It was, it was.
It was really bad, you know.
So I can't, I can't reallyjudge it.
I feel like if any, if anyrelationship or sexuality piece
of literature speaks to you,then amazing.

(58:24):
You know, I think there are alot of texts out there because
there are a lot of differentpeople out there, and so
whatever resonates is valuable.

It's much nicer than what I have to say about
the book, because it's writtenby like You're not an acts of
service.
No, no, I am a gift giver Ifwe're going by this analogy that
this past year made up.
I'm a gift giver if we're goingby this analogy that this past
year made up.

By the way, I'm a gift giver also, that's mine.

Yeah, I am a gift giver.
My husband is personal.
Is it personal time?
It's called personal time,quality time.
But yeah, you're much nicerabout the book than I am In
general.
I mean, this sounds this is avery stupid question, I feel
like.
But how important is sex in arelationship, and is there an

(59:13):
age where it starts to becomeless important in a relationship
?

Sexual intimacy is always important in a
relationship and I'm going toput a little like asterisk on
that but I don't necessarilythink sexual intimacy always has
to be about sexual intercourse.
I think it's about physicalconnection and pleasure, and
there are a lot of ways that wecan get that, and it doesn't
have to be this like how manytimes this week or this month

(59:41):
did we do this?
One thing I do think physicalintimacy is really important.
Otherwise, people can becomelike roommates, and for periods
of time you know that worksright After someone, a big life
change, right, whether that'sbirth, whether that's, you know,
the loss of someone, like.
Those patterns happen absolutely, but at some point we remember

(01:00:06):
that we want to be touched acertain way, we want to feel
connection, and that's not likegender-based, that's the need
for human contact.
So I think it's always.
I think physical intimacy isalways important.
I think it just changesthroughout the lifespan how much
you need, how much you want,how you want your relationship
structured changes.

(01:00:27):
The most important thing,though, is the ability to talk
about it if it's changing in adirection that you would rather
it not change towards.
Oftentimes, we wait till thingsare really bad before we engage
in a conversation about it,where it would have been a lot
easier to navigate tough timesearly on.

Nicole Kelly (01:00:48):
I think those are scary conversations to have.
Sometimes, though, because youhave to be emotionally
vulnerable, especially if youdon't feel comfortable talking
about sex in general, and beingemotionally vulnerable involving
sex can be really really hardfor some people.

Logan Levkoff (01:01:02):
Absolutely, but the likelihood is, if you feel
unsatisfied, someone elseprobably does too.
That makes a lot of sense.
That's the other piece of it.
And so there are ways to useyour surroundings to initiate
these conversations, whetherit's you read something in a
book and say, like you know, Iread this thing, it was really

(01:01:24):
interesting to me, I hadn't eventhought about it before.
Or you see something on TV, orit's article, and you tell
someone that someone sent it toyou, like whatever it is, that
gives you the opportunity tostart a dialogue.
We don't always have to do itlike sitting at a table saying
listen, there's something Ireally want to talk to you about
, right, it can be far moreorganic and fun, and actually

(01:01:45):
fun and entertaining.
It could be that you'rewatching a movie and you could
laugh and say you have to behonest, I've always wanted to
try that.
I don't know why.
I've always wanted to try that.
Who knows what that littlesentence can start.

Nicole Kelly (01:02:00):
So I hope you enjoyed that first half of my
interview with Dr Logan Levkoff.
Be sure to subscribe to makesure that you don't miss part
two.
¶¶ Bye.

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"Let's Talk About Sex!" - An Interview with Logan Levkoff (Part 1)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}"Let's Talk About Sex!" - An Interview with Logan Levkoff (Part 1)