September 25, 2023 • 23 mins
How has the consumer goods industry changed over the last 30 years? Why are we dealing struggling with the same obstacles that have challenged us for decades. In the first episode of Shelf Life, our guest, John Buckley, Consumer Products Industry Advisor at SAP, uses his deep expertise and consumer products experience to answer some of these questions. From Maytag and Kraft-Heinz to Tyson, John's rich experience sheds light on some of the biggest issues facing consumer brands today:
- How do you plan for supply chain disruptions?
- How can you make sure your products are on the shelf when and where the consumer wants to buy them?
- Who really "owns" the consumer — the brand or the retailer?
- How is ecommerce transforming retail?
On every episode of Shelf Life we tackle the most pressing retail, ecommerce, sales and supply chain questions of our time with the help of experienced leaders across the consumer goods industry.
Visit us at Alloy.ai/podcast to learn more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So what happens if supply would go down?
What happens if demand wouldincrease by 10%?
How would I solve those things?
Because what happens is youneed to make decisions so
quickly in order to make surethat you keep that flow of
product going and then, when youstart to see the pendulum start
to swing where you're planned,which never, hardly ever, occurs
(00:22):
the way that you want it tooccur.
Once it starts to swing one wayor the other, you've already
thought through the process.
You've already said this iswhat we're going to do, so that
helps you get into thatexecution mode faster.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
From alloyai this is shelf life.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
How can consumer brands anticipate what their
customers want to buy?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
How do brands drive loyalty with increasingly fickle
consumers?
Who owns the consumer, consumercompanies or retailers?
What does the future ofcommerce hold On every episode
of shelf life, we answerquestions like these and more,
with the help of leaders acrossthe consumer goods industry.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Today we welcome John Buckley, Consumer Products
Industry Advisor at SAP.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
John has over 30 years of experience within the
consumer products industry.
He's held vice president anddirector roles in supply chain,
manufacturing and planning, andhe's led SNOP initiatives for
Tyson Foods, Sarah Lee, Kraft,Heinz, Maytag Appliances and
more.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I'm your co-host, joel Beal, ceo of alloyai, and
I'm your co-host Logan Ensign,Chief Customer Officer at
alloyai.
We'll be back with John Buckleyright after this.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Selling consumer goods is a tough job.
Between rising costs, supplydisruptions, price sensitive
consumers and retail partnerswho have their own set of
priorities, it's becoming harderthan ever to execute today,
much less planned for tomorrow.
There's plenty of data to help,but pulling and analyzing
reports from retailer portals isso tedious and time consuming
that you can't respond toproblems at the shelf until the
(02:11):
bullwhip hits you in the face.
That's a cow, actually.
Now there's alloyai to help.
Alloy automatically aggregatesand harmonizes data from your
retailers, supply chain partnersand ERP.
Then we make it easy to findinsights using pre-built
consumer goods specific metricsand dashboards, so you can sense
, predict and respond instantly.
(02:32):
Check it out today and get ademo at alloyai.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
John Buckley, welcome to Shelf Life Great so it's a
pleasure to be here.
It's great to have you.
We're really excited to havethis conversation.
John, you have a reallycompelling background for us
here because you've had theluxury of working at the
consumer brands I know you wereat Maytag Kraft Tyson but also
(03:00):
you've had the chance to work onthe technology side for those
companies that support them,currently at SAP.
I think the first question foryou is how did you get into this
space and what gets you excitedabout it?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
I started off in consumer products goods and have
basically remained.
They're all 35 plus years of myexperience.
As you said, we're starting towork with Maytag Appliances,
which was in the hometown whereI grew up at I set my stage and
then I met people throughout theorganization that moved and go
to other companies.
Some of them had asked me tocome work for them, so I left
(03:33):
Maytag to go to Jacuzzi.
But then, as I started goingthrough that, I had an
opportunity to switch from moreof the durable goods into the
fast-moving consumer goodsindustry where I was working
with Sarah Lee.
Although it's similar withconsumer goods, the difference
between durables to fast-movingconsumer goods the way that they
plan and the way they deliverproducts and how they interact
(03:54):
with consumers happens to be alittle bit different.
But it was at Sarah Lee where Ireally started to realize how
technology plays a part in.
I'm a business process person,so I think about things from a
process.
I came to learn how solutions,how that technology aspect, can
add value and bring addedresults to your business process
(04:16):
and to how you're doing yourday-to-day work.
So that led me to SAP and sothen I started working with SAP
and then started dealing withglobal customers around the
world, mostly on supply chaintopics.
But then after I worked therefor a couple years, I had the
itch to get back into consumerproducts again.
Then I went back and worked forKraft Heinz and returned back
(04:36):
into at that time.
Now it was Tyson who acquiredSarah Lee Hillshire brands
earlier on and then I stayedthere and then I had that itch
to say you know what I want toget back into, what I really
enjoyed my time at SAP before.
I really enjoyed sharing someof my experience and my
knowledge with others and Ireally could see how the value
(04:58):
of technology added in it.
So I decided to leave and comeback into SAP where currently
I'm an industry product advisorfor all of consumer goods with
responsibility in the Midwest,but I do stretch out beyond that
.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
John you mentioned you've been in the space for 35
years and I love the fact thatyou sounds like you even started
at Maytag kind of the hometownbusiness, if you will.
I'm sure you've seen massivechanges over that time, probably
some that are pretty remarkable.
Maybe some changes haven'thappened that you would have
(05:30):
expected.
I'm just curious as you look atthat you know relatively long
time period, where have you seenthe most evolution?
What's been the most surprising, maybe both in terms of where
there has been change and wherethere hasn't?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
You know, working in consumer products, and whether
it is durable goods orfast-moving consumer goods, or
sitting on this side of thetable looking back, one thing
that we all need to focus on andneed to be aware of is the
consumers.
That's you, that's me.
The consumers have changedgreatly If we think back 35
years and for some of us wedon't even need to think back
(06:04):
that far, we can just think backfive or six years.
Think about how we did things,how we worked, how we played,
how we interacted, how we shop.
All of that is constantlychanging.
So one of the things that I'velearned over my career is that,
even though the consumers we'vegotten older, we've gotten wiser
, but there are things that makeus change our activities the
(06:25):
changes of how we shop, how weinteract.
Most recently, if we look atwhat's happened with COVID, you
go back five years.
If you just think back abouthow we shop, how we engage, how
we bought our groceries, how webought our appliances.
Today has changed as consumers.
And so you know, 35 years ago,when I got into my first role as
(06:45):
a demand planner and I wastrying to guess what people
would buy, fast forward 35 yearsand I'm still talking to
customers or still trying tofigure out what consumers are
going to buy.
We need to stay closer to thatconsumer to find out what
they're doing and what are theythinking and what are they going
to buy.
And now you gotta put it intothat.
How are they going?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
to buy it.
John, you spoke about whatpeople are gonna buy Most people
, when you think about demandplanning, that's what it's about
.
How much are they gonna buy,Maybe?
Where are they gonna buy it?
You said that's a moreimportant thing post COVID,
that's something.
Certainly we've seen.
A lot of you know buy online,pick up in store.
Obviously, the growth of puree-commerce how is that changing
(07:25):
planning from your perspective?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
You know, if you look back again at how we've changed
and let's just take the fastmoving consumer goods in the
grocery store experience that wehad Prior to this, we'd always
go into the grocery store andwe'd go in with a list or
generally you'd start pickingthings off of the shelf If they
wasn't there.
Then you'd have to make achoice.
You know, do I wait for thatparticular product to come back
in or do I find something else?
And so we'd make that choiceright there.
(07:49):
And as a consumer product, goodcompany, we do never.
You never wanna see someonechange your brand.
You wanna keep that productthat's on the shelf.
So you fast forward.
Then, all of a sudden, covid hitand now we're interacting where
we're not going into thegrocery stores, and now we're
having to do it online and wehave to put our grocery list in
or we have to do differentthings.
(08:10):
And then, if they didn't havethe product, sometimes the
retailer would make thosedecisions for us.
They would give us some productas a replacement.
It might the value might havebeen greater than what it was
that we wanted to order, butthey would make a change for us.
It gets back to the basis ofmaking sure that you have the
product on the shelf when us, asconsumers, want to have it.
(08:35):
Because, as a consumer productcompany that is branded and
there are some consumer productscompanies out there that are
private label but they play inthis same sense as well that
making sure that your product ison the shelf, available to the
consumer when they want to buyit.
And now how they want to buy it.
Again, us as consumers, we'vechanged the way that we've
(08:58):
shopped.
It's nothing for us to make adecision that I wanna go on and
buy an appliance and if it's notthere at this retailer, that
I'll switch and I'll move tosomewhere else.
Now, granted for the CPGcompany.
If you stay within that brand,that's good, but the retailer,
on that standpoint, doesn't likethat when you switch from one
(09:19):
of the stores to another store.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
You talk a little bit there around, you know that on
shelf availability, which Ithink people have been talking
about for decades at this pointright Availability of product
you obviously don't want someonesubstituting.
Do you think with the change tomore e-commerce, does that
benefit more the brands or theretailers when it comes to
switching?
(09:40):
Because before, if I was inthat grocery store, I'm a
captive audience.
It's unlikely I'm gonna go to adifferent grocery store because
I can't find the exact productI like, or at least it's a
little more difficult, and so asa grocery store I'm still going
to be able to pick up thatpurchase.
It just might be a differentbrand that I sell.
But now I mean I can just openup a new tab on my browser and
(10:02):
maybe buy from a differentgrocery store and get that same
brand somewhere else.
So I'm curious how is thatdynamic playing out?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
This is going to kind of sound like a consulting
answer.
So this gets into the otherside of things.
It kind of depends.
And what do I mean by how itdepends is that when you think
of consumer goods and when Itold you in my background, we
talked about durable goods andwe talked about fast-moving
consumer goods.
But you have to realize thatthere's other types of durable
or there are other types ofconsumer products, such as
(10:31):
fashion, home and personal care.
All of those things havedifferent and unique ways of
going about it.
So the example, joel, that youjust gave there where you go in
and you look for a washingmachine, the chance of you
switching to another brand ofwashing machine may be a little
bit less likely.
(10:52):
You're going to go find a newretailer that has what you're
looking for Fast-moving consumergoods.
You're shopping at a retailer,the product's not there, you're
going to switch to anotherproduct.
So the dynamics that happens inbetween the sub-industries is
all different and, as consumerproducts good companies and
(11:14):
retailers there's that dynamicthat goes on about who owns the
consumer, who has theinformation to the consumer.
How can we share informationback and forth between each
other so that the consumer canmake sure that they get what
they want when they want it andwhere they want it as well.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I'm curious as you talk about these shifts that are
happening, or really trying tokeep up with the consumer demand
and understanding that, do younotice consistent strains on
supply chains that come out ofthis?
And so what we see with some ofour customers we work with is a
lot more emphasis, for example,on different fulfillment
methods through retail channelsbuy online, pick up in store,
(11:55):
direct ship.
Are there sort of consistenciesin terms of just where people
are focused from a supply chainperspective with these changes?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah.
So I mean, disruption in supplychain is getting to be a norm.
It's not uncommon for us toturn on the news and hear about
some kind of a supply chaindisruption whether that's going
to be a ship that's stuck in theSuez Canal to a bird flu or
something like that we're seeingevery time you go into the
(12:22):
store.
At least we are surprised atwhat we're out of.
I mean, there was an aluminumshortage.
That happened when COVIDstarted.
It was trouble getting aluminum, and so the manufacturers like
Pepsi and Coke and some of theother were having trouble
getting their products due to asupply chain issue.
Recently, eggs have shot up inprice.
I mean, it's just I'm trying tofind them.
(12:44):
That's because there was a birdflu out there and so the
limited.
So it's that old economicsupply and demand that goes into
there, and those disruptionsare hard to plan.
I just recently read whereevery 3.1 years there's going to
be a disruption in themagnitude of two to three months
.
So if you think about that andwhen I say a disruption that's
(13:06):
one that's just not a glitchwhere you don't get a truck in
this is something that's majorlyimpacting the industry for two
to three months and anytime youget that disruption or that
impact, that's going to createchaos, and it creates chaos for
the suppliers, creates chaos forthe consumer, products, good
companies and it creates chaosfor the retailers, because all
(13:28):
of us again I get back to it wewant to make sure we keep the
product on the shelf for theconsumers.
And it's those disruptions thatyou can't plan for.
You just have to make sure thatyou can react to it as best as
you can.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
So, john, I guess that brings up the big question.
You can't plan for these.
As you mentioned, they happenunexpectedly, as you said,
they've been in the news a lotthe last couple of years,
although they've always happened.
So how do you respond?
You know quickly this, you'vebeen on both sides of this.
You know how do you advise yourcustomers, your clients, on how
(14:01):
they get better at reacting tothese things.
They can't even anticipate.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah.
So there's two things that Iadvise to the customers that I
work with.
Number one is have the abilityto create different scenarios in
your planning systems.
We're never going to get awayfrom planning.
I mean, that's just, that's inconsumer products.
Good, that's always going to bethere, and we need to do that
for a lot of outside reasons.
You need to make sure that youdo your planning and then you
(14:26):
create different scenarios.
So what happens if supply wouldgo down?
What happens if demand wouldincrease by 10%?
How would I solve those things?
Because what happens is youneed to make decisions so
quickly in order to make surethat you keep that flow of
product going that you have tothink through and then, when you
start to see the pendulum startto swing where your plan which
(14:49):
never, hardly ever, occurs theway that you want it to occur,
once it starts to swing one wayor the other, you've already
thought through the process.
You've already said this iswhat we're going to do, so that
helps you get into thatexecution mode faster.
The second thing that we have todo and I tell our customers and
our potential customers thatyou have to do is, again, we are
named consumer products.
(15:11):
You have to stay closer to theconsumer.
You have to start seeing whatare they talking about, what are
they buying, where are theybuying it, how are they buying
it the more you know about thatconsumer although we've just
talked about that we're changingevery day the closer that you
can get to that consumer andlearn more about how they're
(15:32):
changing, when they're changingand why they're changing.
That's going to help you in theplanning and as well as the
execution to make sure that youcan keep those flows of goods
coming to the customers.
I guess where I was trying tolead to with this is, you know
that the emerging technologiesthat come around and that
connection between the retailerand the CPG company and I said
(15:54):
this to your team meeting when Iwas there to talk to them you
guys offer a great solution withgreat opportunity to tie those
two parts of the supply chaintogether.
The ability to take that pointof sale information and that
inventory information that isgenerally maybe not readily
(16:14):
received on a timely manner andgiven to consumer products,
goods companies, is a great winbecause that does bring us that
much closer to the consumer.
It kind of opens up the windowand that wall that exists in
between us, for us to lookthrough and actually see what
the consumer is doing.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
John, in our conversations that consistently
comes up, I think you have aunique passion for making sure
you don't lose sight of theconsumer through all of this.
Circling back a little bit tothis interesting dynamic that
brands have in, of course theyneed a strong relationship with
retailers these are the primarychannels which a lot of brands
(16:57):
sell through but also this ideaof who owns the customer and who
owns the customer information.
To some degree, retailers andbrands are cooperating
competitors, and so I'm curioushow you view balancing this and
how folks balance this dynamiceffectively.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Yeah, that is an age old question and I wish it was a
silver bullet for it because,again, like I said, 35 years ago
, we were trying to figure thisout and fast forward, and here
we are today still trying tofigure it out.
So that is an interestingdynamic that happens between the
retailers and the consumers.
Again, I get the opportunityand it doesn't happen that often
where I get the retailer and aconsumer product good company in
(17:39):
the same room together and wetalk about this.
But I try to get them to focuson is that we both have the same
end goal in mind.
We want to make sure that wekeep the consumer happy, that
they come back to your store,that they continually buy
product from your store.
But when they come to yourstore they buy my product is
(18:01):
because that's what they want.
So I need to make sure that Ihave my product in your stores.
You need to make sure that youdon't have it in the back room.
You have it on to the store sothat the consumer can get it, or
on your website with yourinventory updated to the correct
amount so that they can placethat order online and then come
and pick it up.
So that dynamic of we alwaysfind about who owns the consumer
(18:24):
.
You know, a brand company wouldsay that's my customer, that's
my consumer.
And the retailer says, well,they shop at my place.
What we need to do is we need toget past that and look out
what's good for us, for those ofus that are listening on the
podcast today, or the three ofus that are sitting here talking
together.
What is it that we want?
And if we can focus our setupby sharing information what's
(18:46):
going on in your world andwhat's going on in my world we
can then better plan to handlemaybe some of those disruptions
from a CPG company.
If I know that my manufacturingfacility isn't going to be able
to produce much, be open, tellthe retailer that this is going
to happen.
How can we work around this?
Again, keeping the consumer inthe end, mine?
(19:07):
I learned very early on, once Istarted working at Maytag
Appliances fresh out of college,and one of my executives that I
used as a mentor told me thatthe consumer is king or queen in
that standpoint, because in ourplace at Maytag Appliances is
actually a female that boughtthe appliances.
They made the decision up there.
So the consumer is king orqueen.
We need to keep that mentalitytoday, keep the consumer in the
(19:31):
mind and, rather than making itan adversarial relationship, we
need to share information betterthan what we do today and then
work together with the ultimatepurpose in mind of both
increasing revenues andprofitability.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
So, if I'm hearing you right, john, it sounds like
focusing on the joint objective,which is we want the product to
be on the shelf and we want theconsumer to have a good
experience buying.
That and everything else canget complicated, but as long as
you stay focused on, we have ashared goal, that can help a lot
(20:06):
in that relationship.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
That is the ultimate goal and it's tough and we're
still talking through it and wehave a long way to go, but I
have seen some retailers andconsumer products companies
solve this and when I see howthey're working together, I see
nothing but improved benefitfrom both sides and there is
truly a win-win relationship.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
I'm curious as, again , you've got the 35 years of
experience.
You've seen the change youtalked about, just all the focus
in the last couple years, thedisruptions, the changing
consumer trends that werehappening before but seem like
they've been accelerated oraccentuated as you look forward
the next couple years.
(20:49):
What do you see changing?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah.
So again, if I had my crystalball and I could look into it
and tell you what was going tohappen, that I wouldn't be
sitting there talking to two ofyou guys today.
But the one thing that I can'tsay is that if we do learn is
that change is constant.
It is going to change as welook ahead and we say what's
going to happen.
What I generally tell consumerproducts companies is to stay
(21:14):
really close to their ownemployees, to stay really close
to themselves, to their families, because the same thoughts of
what's going through your mindas you're seeing some of this
disruption come in how you'reshopping, and that you're not
alone.
Everybody else is doing that.
So there is going to be moredisruption.
I just told you before, every3.1 years, there's going to be
(21:36):
at least a two month.
That's not even counting thesmall disruptions that we have
throughout that process.
If we go into it with a mindsetthat, yes, there's going to be
disruptions, there is going tobe, if you want to say it, a new
normal I don't know whereeveryone be to a normal state
again.
But if we do a better job ofplanning through all the what if
(21:56):
scenarios that we can thinkabout.
We're going to have a betterjob of then executing, and if we
do a better job of executingand adapting to those changes
that are presented to us, betteroff we're going to be in
servicing the end consumer.
So I wish I had more than thatof what I see in the future.
I know technology is going tocontinue to change.
I know technology is going tohelp business processes more
(22:19):
automate.
We're going to learn more.
We're going to use emergingtechnologies like AI and ML and
robotics to help us continuallydo better.
But I would almost guaranteeyou that if we had this podcast
35 years from now which I know Iwould be really super old we'd
probably be talking about thesame stuff all over again.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yeah, I think I think you're right.
You know, what I'm certainlygetting from this is just that
idea that it's.
It's all about that consumerright, the, the aligned goals.
There's a lot of differentcompanies involved in that
complex supply chain, but aslong as everyone understands
what that ultimate goal istreating that, you know, queen
or king, that you know andconsumer then everyone's going
(23:01):
to win in that process.
And so I imagine that's goingto stay pretty constant here too
, even if a lot of the thedetails around it change and
again it again.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
we don't have to go very far to look at the industry
that we play in consumer goods.
So I mean it's it's a reminderto those of us that are in
enroll similar to myself or thatare in their manufacturing
products.
It's just just look at theindustry that you're in and
remind yourself that theconsumer should be our main
focus.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, John, thank you so much for joining us today.
It's really been great havingthis conversation with you.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
I've enjoyed it as well.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I appreciate the inclusion guys You've been
listening to John Buckley,consumer products industry
advisor at SAP.
That's all for this week.
See you next time on shelf life.
So what happens if supply would go down?
What happens if demand wouldincrease by 10%?
How would I solve those things?
Because what happens is youneed to make decisions so
quickly in order to make surethat you keep that flow of
product going and then, when youstart to see the pendulum start
to swing where you're planned,which never, hardly ever, occurs
(00:22):
the way that you want it tooccur.
Once it starts to swing one wayor the other, you've already
thought through the process.
You've already said this iswhat we're going to do, so that
helps you get into thatexecution mode faster.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
From alloyai this is shelf life.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
How can consumer brands anticipate what their
customers want to buy?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
How do brands drive loyalty with increasingly fickle
consumers?
Who owns the consumer, consumercompanies or retailers?
What does the future ofcommerce hold On every episode
of shelf life, we answerquestions like these and more,
with the help of leaders acrossthe consumer goods industry.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Today we welcome John Buckley, Consumer Products
Industry Advisor at SAP.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
John has over 30 years of experience within the
consumer products industry.
He's held vice president anddirector roles in supply chain,
manufacturing and planning, andhe's led SNOP initiatives for
Tyson Foods, Sarah Lee, Kraft,Heinz, Maytag Appliances and
more.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I'm your co-host, joel Beal, ceo of alloyai, and
I'm your co-host Logan Ensign,Chief Customer Officer at
alloyai.
We'll be back with John Buckleyright after this.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Selling consumer goods is a tough job.
Between rising costs, supplydisruptions, price sensitive
consumers and retail partnerswho have their own set of
priorities, it's becoming harderthan ever to execute today,
much less planned for tomorrow.
There's plenty of data to help,but pulling and analyzing
reports from retailer portals isso tedious and time consuming
that you can't respond toproblems at the shelf until the
(02:11):
bullwhip hits you in the face.
That's a cow, actually.
Now there's alloyai to help.
Alloy automatically aggregatesand harmonizes data from your
retailers, supply chain partnersand ERP.
Then we make it easy to findinsights using pre-built
consumer goods specific metricsand dashboards, so you can sense
, predict and respond instantly.
(02:32):
Check it out today and get ademo at alloyai.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
John Buckley, welcome to Shelf Life Great so it's a
pleasure to be here.
It's great to have you.
We're really excited to havethis conversation.
John, you have a reallycompelling background for us
here because you've had theluxury of working at the
consumer brands I know you wereat Maytag Kraft Tyson but also
(03:00):
you've had the chance to work onthe technology side for those
companies that support them,currently at SAP.
I think the first question foryou is how did you get into this
space and what gets you excitedabout it?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
I started off in consumer products goods and have
basically remained.
They're all 35 plus years of myexperience.
As you said, we're starting towork with Maytag Appliances,
which was in the hometown whereI grew up at I set my stage and
then I met people throughout theorganization that moved and go
to other companies.
Some of them had asked me tocome work for them, so I left
(03:33):
Maytag to go to Jacuzzi.
But then, as I started goingthrough that, I had an
opportunity to switch from moreof the durable goods into the
fast-moving consumer goodsindustry where I was working
with Sarah Lee.
Although it's similar withconsumer goods, the difference
between durables to fast-movingconsumer goods the way that they
plan and the way they deliverproducts and how they interact
(03:54):
with consumers happens to be alittle bit different.
But it was at Sarah Lee where Ireally started to realize how
technology plays a part in.
I'm a business process person,so I think about things from a
process.
I came to learn how solutions,how that technology aspect, can
add value and bring addedresults to your business process
(04:16):
and to how you're doing yourday-to-day work.
So that led me to SAP and sothen I started working with SAP
and then started dealing withglobal customers around the
world, mostly on supply chaintopics.
But then after I worked therefor a couple years, I had the
itch to get back into consumerproducts again.
Then I went back and worked forKraft Heinz and returned back
(04:36):
into at that time.
Now it was Tyson who acquiredSarah Lee Hillshire brands
earlier on and then I stayedthere and then I had that itch
to say you know what I want toget back into, what I really
enjoyed my time at SAP before.
I really enjoyed sharing someof my experience and my
knowledge with others and Ireally could see how the value
(04:58):
of technology added in it.
So I decided to leave and comeback into SAP where currently
I'm an industry product advisorfor all of consumer goods with
responsibility in the Midwest,but I do stretch out beyond that
.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
John you mentioned you've been in the space for 35
years and I love the fact thatyou sounds like you even started
at Maytag kind of the hometownbusiness, if you will.
I'm sure you've seen massivechanges over that time, probably
some that are pretty remarkable.
Maybe some changes haven'thappened that you would have
(05:30):
expected.
I'm just curious as you look atthat you know relatively long
time period, where have you seenthe most evolution?
What's been the most surprising, maybe both in terms of where
there has been change and wherethere hasn't?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
You know, working in consumer products, and whether
it is durable goods orfast-moving consumer goods, or
sitting on this side of thetable looking back, one thing
that we all need to focus on andneed to be aware of is the
consumers.
That's you, that's me.
The consumers have changedgreatly If we think back 35
years and for some of us wedon't even need to think back
(06:04):
that far, we can just think backfive or six years.
Think about how we did things,how we worked, how we played,
how we interacted, how we shop.
All of that is constantlychanging.
So one of the things that I'velearned over my career is that,
even though the consumers we'vegotten older, we've gotten wiser
, but there are things that makeus change our activities the
(06:25):
changes of how we shop, how weinteract.
Most recently, if we look atwhat's happened with COVID, you
go back five years.
If you just think back abouthow we shop, how we engage, how
we bought our groceries, how webought our appliances.
Today has changed as consumers.
And so you know, 35 years ago,when I got into my first role as
(06:45):
a demand planner and I wastrying to guess what people
would buy, fast forward 35 yearsand I'm still talking to
customers or still trying tofigure out what consumers are
going to buy.
We need to stay closer to thatconsumer to find out what
they're doing and what are theythinking and what are they going
to buy.
And now you gotta put it intothat.
How are they going?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
to buy it.
John, you spoke about whatpeople are gonna buy Most people
, when you think about demandplanning, that's what it's about
.
How much are they gonna buy,Maybe?
Where are they gonna buy it?
You said that's a moreimportant thing post COVID,
that's something.
Certainly we've seen.
A lot of you know buy online,pick up in store.
Obviously, the growth of puree-commerce how is that changing
(07:25):
planning from your perspective?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
You know, if you look back again at how we've changed
and let's just take the fastmoving consumer goods in the
grocery store experience that wehad Prior to this, we'd always
go into the grocery store andwe'd go in with a list or
generally you'd start pickingthings off of the shelf If they
wasn't there.
Then you'd have to make achoice.
You know, do I wait for thatparticular product to come back
in or do I find something else?
And so we'd make that choiceright there.
(07:49):
And as a consumer product, goodcompany, we do never.
You never wanna see someonechange your brand.
You wanna keep that productthat's on the shelf.
So you fast forward.
Then, all of a sudden, covid hitand now we're interacting where
we're not going into thegrocery stores, and now we're
having to do it online and wehave to put our grocery list in
or we have to do differentthings.
(08:10):
And then, if they didn't havethe product, sometimes the
retailer would make thosedecisions for us.
They would give us some productas a replacement.
It might the value might havebeen greater than what it was
that we wanted to order, butthey would make a change for us.
It gets back to the basis ofmaking sure that you have the
product on the shelf when us, asconsumers, want to have it.
(08:35):
Because, as a consumer productcompany that is branded and
there are some consumer productscompanies out there that are
private label but they play inthis same sense as well that
making sure that your product ison the shelf, available to the
consumer when they want to buyit.
And now how they want to buy it.
Again, us as consumers, we'vechanged the way that we've
(08:58):
shopped.
It's nothing for us to make adecision that I wanna go on and
buy an appliance and if it's notthere at this retailer, that
I'll switch and I'll move tosomewhere else.
Now, granted for the CPGcompany.
If you stay within that brand,that's good, but the retailer,
on that standpoint, doesn't likethat when you switch from one
(09:19):
of the stores to another store.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
You talk a little bit there around, you know that on
shelf availability, which Ithink people have been talking
about for decades at this pointright Availability of product
you obviously don't want someonesubstituting.
Do you think with the change tomore e-commerce, does that
benefit more the brands or theretailers when it comes to
switching?
(09:40):
Because before, if I was inthat grocery store, I'm a
captive audience.
It's unlikely I'm gonna go to adifferent grocery store because
I can't find the exact productI like, or at least it's a
little more difficult, and so asa grocery store I'm still going
to be able to pick up thatpurchase.
It just might be a differentbrand that I sell.
But now I mean I can just openup a new tab on my browser and
(10:02):
maybe buy from a differentgrocery store and get that same
brand somewhere else.
So I'm curious how is thatdynamic playing out?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
This is going to kind of sound like a consulting
answer.
So this gets into the otherside of things.
It kind of depends.
And what do I mean by how itdepends is that when you think
of consumer goods and when Itold you in my background, we
talked about durable goods andwe talked about fast-moving
consumer goods.
But you have to realize thatthere's other types of durable
or there are other types ofconsumer products, such as
(10:31):
fashion, home and personal care.
All of those things havedifferent and unique ways of
going about it.
So the example, joel, that youjust gave there where you go in
and you look for a washingmachine, the chance of you
switching to another brand ofwashing machine may be a little
bit less likely.
(10:52):
You're going to go find a newretailer that has what you're
looking for Fast-moving consumergoods.
You're shopping at a retailer,the product's not there, you're
going to switch to anotherproduct.
So the dynamics that happens inbetween the sub-industries is
all different and, as consumerproducts good companies and
(11:14):
retailers there's that dynamicthat goes on about who owns the
consumer, who has theinformation to the consumer.
How can we share informationback and forth between each
other so that the consumer canmake sure that they get what
they want when they want it andwhere they want it as well.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I'm curious as you talk about these shifts that are
happening, or really trying tokeep up with the consumer demand
and understanding that, do younotice consistent strains on
supply chains that come out ofthis?
And so what we see with some ofour customers we work with is a
lot more emphasis, for example,on different fulfillment
methods through retail channelsbuy online, pick up in store,
(11:55):
direct ship.
Are there sort of consistenciesin terms of just where people
are focused from a supply chainperspective with these changes?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah.
So I mean, disruption in supplychain is getting to be a norm.
It's not uncommon for us toturn on the news and hear about
some kind of a supply chaindisruption whether that's going
to be a ship that's stuck in theSuez Canal to a bird flu or
something like that we're seeingevery time you go into the
(12:22):
store.
At least we are surprised atwhat we're out of.
I mean, there was an aluminumshortage.
That happened when COVIDstarted.
It was trouble getting aluminum, and so the manufacturers like
Pepsi and Coke and some of theother were having trouble
getting their products due to asupply chain issue.
Recently, eggs have shot up inprice.
I mean, it's just I'm trying tofind them.
(12:44):
That's because there was a birdflu out there and so the
limited.
So it's that old economicsupply and demand that goes into
there, and those disruptionsare hard to plan.
I just recently read whereevery 3.1 years there's going to
be a disruption in themagnitude of two to three months
.
So if you think about that andwhen I say a disruption that's
(13:06):
one that's just not a glitchwhere you don't get a truck in
this is something that's majorlyimpacting the industry for two
to three months and anytime youget that disruption or that
impact, that's going to createchaos, and it creates chaos for
the suppliers, creates chaos forthe consumer, products, good
companies and it creates chaosfor the retailers, because all
(13:28):
of us again I get back to it wewant to make sure we keep the
product on the shelf for theconsumers.
And it's those disruptions thatyou can't plan for.
You just have to make sure thatyou can react to it as best as
you can.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
So, john, I guess that brings up the big question.
You can't plan for these.
As you mentioned, they happenunexpectedly, as you said,
they've been in the news a lotthe last couple of years,
although they've always happened.
So how do you respond?
You know quickly this, you'vebeen on both sides of this.
You know how do you advise yourcustomers, your clients, on how
(14:01):
they get better at reacting tothese things.
They can't even anticipate.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah.
So there's two things that Iadvise to the customers that I
work with.
Number one is have the abilityto create different scenarios in
your planning systems.
We're never going to get awayfrom planning.
I mean, that's just, that's inconsumer products.
Good, that's always going to bethere, and we need to do that
for a lot of outside reasons.
You need to make sure that youdo your planning and then you
(14:26):
create different scenarios.
So what happens if supply wouldgo down?
What happens if demand wouldincrease by 10%?
How would I solve those things?
Because what happens is youneed to make decisions so
quickly in order to make surethat you keep that flow of
product going that you have tothink through and then, when you
start to see the pendulum startto swing where your plan which
(14:49):
never, hardly ever, occurs theway that you want it to occur,
once it starts to swing one wayor the other, you've already
thought through the process.
You've already said this iswhat we're going to do, so that
helps you get into thatexecution mode faster.
The second thing that we have todo and I tell our customers and
our potential customers thatyou have to do is, again, we are
named consumer products.
(15:11):
You have to stay closer to theconsumer.
You have to start seeing whatare they talking about, what are
they buying, where are theybuying it, how are they buying
it the more you know about thatconsumer although we've just
talked about that we're changingevery day the closer that you
can get to that consumer andlearn more about how they're
(15:32):
changing, when they're changingand why they're changing.
That's going to help you in theplanning and as well as the
execution to make sure that youcan keep those flows of goods
coming to the customers.
I guess where I was trying tolead to with this is, you know
that the emerging technologiesthat come around and that
connection between the retailerand the CPG company and I said
(15:54):
this to your team meeting when Iwas there to talk to them you
guys offer a great solution withgreat opportunity to tie those
two parts of the supply chaintogether.
The ability to take that pointof sale information and that
inventory information that isgenerally maybe not readily
(16:14):
received on a timely manner andgiven to consumer products,
goods companies, is a great winbecause that does bring us that
much closer to the consumer.
It kind of opens up the windowand that wall that exists in
between us, for us to lookthrough and actually see what
the consumer is doing.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
John, in our conversations that consistently
comes up, I think you have aunique passion for making sure
you don't lose sight of theconsumer through all of this.
Circling back a little bit tothis interesting dynamic that
brands have in, of course theyneed a strong relationship with
retailers these are the primarychannels which a lot of brands
(16:57):
sell through but also this ideaof who owns the customer and who
owns the customer information.
To some degree, retailers andbrands are cooperating
competitors, and so I'm curioushow you view balancing this and
how folks balance this dynamiceffectively.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Yeah, that is an age old question and I wish it was a
silver bullet for it because,again, like I said, 35 years ago
, we were trying to figure thisout and fast forward, and here
we are today still trying tofigure it out.
So that is an interestingdynamic that happens between the
retailers and the consumers.
Again, I get the opportunityand it doesn't happen that often
where I get the retailer and aconsumer product good company in
(17:39):
the same room together and wetalk about this.
But I try to get them to focuson is that we both have the same
end goal in mind.
We want to make sure that wekeep the consumer happy, that
they come back to your store,that they continually buy
product from your store.
But when they come to yourstore they buy my product is
(18:01):
because that's what they want.
So I need to make sure that Ihave my product in your stores.
You need to make sure that youdon't have it in the back room.
You have it on to the store sothat the consumer can get it, or
on your website with yourinventory updated to the correct
amount so that they can placethat order online and then come
and pick it up.
So that dynamic of we alwaysfind about who owns the consumer
(18:24):
.
You know, a brand company wouldsay that's my customer, that's
my consumer.
And the retailer says, well,they shop at my place.
What we need to do is we need toget past that and look out
what's good for us, for those ofus that are listening on the
podcast today, or the three ofus that are sitting here talking
together.
What is it that we want?
And if we can focus our setupby sharing information what's
(18:46):
going on in your world andwhat's going on in my world we
can then better plan to handlemaybe some of those disruptions
from a CPG company.
If I know that my manufacturingfacility isn't going to be able
to produce much, be open, tellthe retailer that this is going
to happen.
How can we work around this?
Again, keeping the consumer inthe end, mine?
(19:07):
I learned very early on, once Istarted working at Maytag
Appliances fresh out of college,and one of my executives that I
used as a mentor told me thatthe consumer is king or queen in
that standpoint, because in ourplace at Maytag Appliances is
actually a female that boughtthe appliances.
They made the decision up there.
So the consumer is king orqueen.
We need to keep that mentalitytoday, keep the consumer in the
(19:31):
mind and, rather than making itan adversarial relationship, we
need to share information betterthan what we do today and then
work together with the ultimatepurpose in mind of both
increasing revenues andprofitability.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
So, if I'm hearing you right, john, it sounds like
focusing on the joint objective,which is we want the product to
be on the shelf and we want theconsumer to have a good
experience buying.
That and everything else canget complicated, but as long as
you stay focused on, we have ashared goal, that can help a lot
(20:06):
in that relationship.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
That is the ultimate goal and it's tough and we're
still talking through it and wehave a long way to go, but I
have seen some retailers andconsumer products companies
solve this and when I see howthey're working together, I see
nothing but improved benefitfrom both sides and there is
truly a win-win relationship.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
I'm curious as, again , you've got the 35 years of
experience.
You've seen the change youtalked about, just all the focus
in the last couple years, thedisruptions, the changing
consumer trends that werehappening before but seem like
they've been accelerated oraccentuated as you look forward
the next couple years.
(20:49):
What do you see changing?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah.
So again, if I had my crystalball and I could look into it
and tell you what was going tohappen, that I wouldn't be
sitting there talking to two ofyou guys today.
But the one thing that I can'tsay is that if we do learn is
that change is constant.
It is going to change as welook ahead and we say what's
going to happen.
What I generally tell consumerproducts companies is to stay
(21:14):
really close to their ownemployees, to stay really close
to themselves, to their families, because the same thoughts of
what's going through your mindas you're seeing some of this
disruption come in how you'reshopping, and that you're not
alone.
Everybody else is doing that.
So there is going to be moredisruption.
I just told you before, every3.1 years, there's going to be
(21:36):
at least a two month.
That's not even counting thesmall disruptions that we have
throughout that process.
If we go into it with a mindsetthat, yes, there's going to be
disruptions, there is going tobe, if you want to say it, a new
normal I don't know whereeveryone be to a normal state
again.
But if we do a better job ofplanning through all the what if
(21:56):
scenarios that we can thinkabout.
We're going to have a betterjob of then executing, and if we
do a better job of executingand adapting to those changes
that are presented to us, betteroff we're going to be in
servicing the end consumer.
So I wish I had more than thatof what I see in the future.
I know technology is going tocontinue to change.
I know technology is going tohelp business processes more
(22:19):
automate.
We're going to learn more.
We're going to use emergingtechnologies like AI and ML and
robotics to help us continuallydo better.
But I would almost guaranteeyou that if we had this podcast
35 years from now which I know Iwould be really super old we'd
probably be talking about thesame stuff all over again.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yeah, I think I think you're right.
You know, what I'm certainlygetting from this is just that
idea that it's.
It's all about that consumerright, the, the aligned goals.
There's a lot of differentcompanies involved in that
complex supply chain, but aslong as everyone understands
what that ultimate goal istreating that, you know, queen
or king, that you know andconsumer then everyone's going
(23:01):
to win in that process.
And so I imagine that's goingto stay pretty constant here too
, even if a lot of the thedetails around it change and
again it again.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
we don't have to go very far to look at the industry
that we play in consumer goods.
So I mean it's it's a reminderto those of us that are in
enroll similar to myself or thatare in their manufacturing
products.
It's just just look at theindustry that you're in and
remind yourself that theconsumer should be our main
focus.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, John, thank you so much for joining us today.
It's really been great havingthis conversation with you.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
I've enjoyed it as well.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I appreciate the inclusion guys You've been
listening to John Buckley,consumer products industry
advisor at SAP.
That's all for this week.
See you next time on shelf life.
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