July 3, 2024 • 26 mins
In this episode, I sit down with therapist and author Caitlin Sigouin to tackle the heavy but important topic of helping children understand and cope with death. As a mom who recently lost my grandma and previously lost my dad, I share my own experiences navigating grief with my kids. Caitlin offers fantastic insights on how children process loss differently than adults, and gives practical tips for talking to kids about death in an age-appropriate way.
We chat about using everyday moments in nature to introduce the concept, recommend some great children's books on the topic, and discuss how to balance your own grief as a parent while supporting your child. Caitlin also shares a sneak peek of her upcoming children's book "A Rainbow of Feelings" which aims to help kids express all their emotions.
This conversation gets real about a tough subject, but Caitlin's expertise and compassion make it super approachable. Whether you're dealing with a loss or just want to be prepared, you'll come away with helpful strategies for having these important talks with your little ones. Tune in for an honest, casual chat about an topic we all face eventually as parents.
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Jessica & Samantha
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, so I think when we're supporting kids with
grief, first of all it's reallyimportant to look at the context
.
So in this situation, there'sthe grief of losing the person
right now, but there's also thegrief previously, so that might
be exploring both of thosescenarios.
And she wasn't involved in alot of the events prior, so it
(00:20):
might be reopening some of that,looking at old pictures of that
person, talking about thosememories and maybe about those
feelings.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hi everyone, and welcome to a brand new episode
of she's Got it Together.
I'm your host, Jessica.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
And I'm Samantha.
Each week we peel back thecurtain on what it really looks
like to have it together.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
From the messy moments to the milestones, we're
here to share it all.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
So grab your favorite drink, get comfy and let's dive
into today's topic.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
A few months ago we lost a very important family
member.
It was my grandma, my girl'sgreat grandma, and this wasn't
the first loss that they hadexperienced.
But it was being old enough tokind of understand what's going
on.
So today I have brought onCaitlin Sequin and we're going
to talk about the heavy topic ofdeath.
(01:16):
I mean, it's not a fun topicbut unfortunately it's
inevitable and everyone is goingto experience it.
But children seem to experienceit a little bit different, a
little bit harder for them tokind of digest the whole
situation.
So, caitlin, she's a therapistand an author of a brand new
children's book, a Rainbow ofFeelings, which I haven't seen
(01:37):
yet and I don't know if it'spublished yet or not.
I think it was coming out thismonth, but I'm super excited
because it's on my list to get.
I think it'll be really, reallycool for my kids.
But before I go into all ofthat, I want to welcome Caitlin.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So Caitlin, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Thank you so much for having me.
Jessica, it's lovely to be here.
Yes, this is, like I said, aheavy topic, but I think it's
one that's very important todiscuss.
So can you give us a little bitof a background?
You know, like we know, you'rea therapist, obviously an author
and things, but where did thispiece of you know understanding
the grief with children comeinto play?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, so it's a topic that I focus on in my practice
as a therapist.
I've had my own experienceswith grief throughout my life,
starting as a child, of coursewith grandparents, and then in
the last number of years I'vealso lost a sibling.
So that's been quite difficultnavigating that, and so
professionally I have mytraining.
But navigating that myself as aparent, having children during
(02:36):
that period, really shed lighton the difficulty that this can
bring up and so how to helpchildren with that.
So that's a little bit ofbackground about myself, sort of
the professional drive behindit as well as the personal.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yes, no, that's great .
So let's kind of just beginwith.
You know how do childrenexperience grief?
Is it different than adults?
Can you kind of just explain?
You know how it differs?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Absolutely so.
Kids, especially young kids,really struggle with object
permanency.
When they're really little, ofcourse, if they can't see us,
for them we don't exist anymore.
Right as they get older theybegin to understand that if they
can't see something, if a toyis invisible, a person that it
still does exist.
But I think this conceptconcept again of something being
(03:24):
gone permanently is a reallydifficult one for kids to grasp.
It's not very concrete, it'ssort of an abstract concept and
kids often struggle with thosemore abstract concepts.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would definitely have to agree
with that.
So we lost, like I hadmentioned, my grandmother this
past fall.
So that would be their greatgrandmother and, being someone
that we're pretty close with orvery we really were very close
with that was a challenge, eventhough it was something that we
(03:59):
could foresee coming in in thenear future.
She was 95.
So it wasn't one of those just,you know, spontaneous or just
those random.
You know, it wasn't an accident, it wasn't like that.
She, you know, she was up therein age and it's something that
I think as an adult I guess Iwas prepared for.
(04:19):
But I didn't realize that mykids weren't necessarily, even
though we talked about it andwe'd visited her, you know,
often in the nursing home andthings like that, it was still
still a huge struggle, Um, alittle bit more than I had
realized it was going to be.
But then, going even furtherback, um, about six years ago,
(04:41):
my dad passed away suddenly.
So my youngest was too young,she, you know, at the time I
think she was four so she didn'tparticipate in, I guess, the
funeral and things like that,Because she just didn't
understand that part.
But my oldest at the time wouldhave been about 10.
(05:03):
And she did go and she did, youknow, the burial.
There's a lot going on with itbecause I thought it was
important for her to experienceit because they were both close
with him.
But it was very interesting tosee how now my youngest reflects
(05:25):
back on that, now that she'solder and we've just had another
loss.
She reflects back on thatoriginal one and is kind of
overcome with grief now, Likeshe's almost re-experiencing the
grief which I was not preparedfor.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, that's actually a really common thing to have
happen.
Often grief we don'tnecessarily realize because we
think each instance of grief issort of a separate thing, but
actually it's, they're allconnected.
So when we experience a newgrief, feelings that we have
from a previous loss and itdoesn't necessarily have to be
(06:04):
the loss of somebody either Ifwe've had the loss of, you know,
moving houses, changing schools, friendship, the loss of
somebody can bring up those samefeelings of grief.
So when we haven't had a chanceto sort of express the emotions
and move through it, absolutelythose feelings and those
emotions are going to come backup with a new loss.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Okay, yeah, I mean, that's essentially what happened
then.
It was very surprising becauseI guess to me I'm like that was
compartmentalized event.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
You know, and it was already dealt with.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
And now, because we were trying to navigate this as
parents and without being upsetlike you know, what are you
doing here?
What's going on, you know,still being, you know, aware of
her feelings, but then alsotrying to figure out is this are
we having some shenanigans here?
Are we trying, you know, younever know, with kids sometimes?
(06:59):
It was quite an interestingsituation, because I don't feel
as though adults have that,because we seem to have grieved
during each event.
I don't know if maybe that'sjust me, maybe that does come up
for adults too, where, you know, it's kind of that residual
(07:20):
comes right back up.
But as far as kids, it justseems like it was, um, like the
event was new, like it hadhappened again, um, so how would
you navigate through somethinglike that?
Or, you know, like, what areyour suggestions for something?
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah.
So I think when we'resupporting kids with grief,
first of all it's reallyimportant to look at the context
.
So in this situation, there'sthe grief of losing the person
right now, but there's also thegrief previously.
So that might be exploring bothof those scenarios and she
wasn't involved in a lot of theevents prior, so it might be
(07:57):
reopening some of that stuff,looking at old pictures of that
person, talking about thosememories and maybe about those
feelings.
With little kids, they often actout things in their play.
So you might notice kids, ofcourse, if they've had a recent
loss once, they're sort ofprocessing it, so it may not
happen right away.
It might be like six monthslater we might see them playing
(08:21):
with their dolls and they'relike oh, you're dead, oh, you're
in the hospital and you'redying.
This can be really jarring as aparent.
Yeah, you know we're like, ohmy gosh, do I need to know
what's going on, right, right.
But it's really important tolet them act those pieces out.
It can also give us informationabout what are the pieces that
(08:41):
they're hanging on to.
What are the messages.
So if the kids are focused onenacting out pieces of you know,
I'm at the hospital and I'msick and now I'm dying.
We can understand that thoseare the messages that are sort
of stuck in their brain thatthey might need help talking
about.
So we might want to go back tothem and say you know, do you
remember when grandma was in thehospital?
(09:03):
Do you remember going to visither and helping her talk out,
sort of have a narrative aboutit.
If there's a piece that'scoming up almost as a fear, sort
of exploring that too, right.
So if it's, you know they'renow afraid of getting sick or
going to the hospital, you knowwe can connect that maybe for
them, going to the hospital orgetting sick might imply that
(09:26):
something's going to happen.
So, reassuring them that youcan be sick, you can go to the
hospital, most people will walkout of the hospital, right?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.
That's very enlightening tothink about it that way, I
suppose because I don't thinkthat is well.
My mind, I guess, wouldn'tnecessarily go that direction,
right, but yes, it does.
It does make sense when you,when you break it down like that
, so do children, I mean, whenthey experience a loss.
(09:59):
Can they, I mean, are theyunderstanding the situation?
Is there like an age where youwould say that the comprehension
of what has happened sets in,or is it just, you know, person
to person, child to child?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
I think it definitely builds as kids get older.
I think, as parents, one of thethings that we often shy away
from the topic of death withkids.
I mean how often you know, evenoutside, if there's a bug.
You know, we've heard peoplesay oh he's just sleeping.
Right, you know he's fine, he'sjust asleep, instead of saying
you know that that bug is dead.
Because, again, we think we'regoing to be frightening our kids
(10:39):
by giving this information.
But those are actually reallygreat learning opportunities for
them to begin to understandwhat death is and what death
looks like.
So we really want to take thoseopportunities and give them
that information.
So correct information, reallysimple words.
Right, we don't need to go onthese big, long explanations
about what's going on.
(11:00):
We don't need to go on thesebig, long explanations about
what's going on.
But if we have a pet at homethat dies, we really want to be
honest with the information thatyou know.
Our dog, you know, died.
We brought him to the vet,right, he died.
We want to give thatinformation.
Right, he was surrounded bylove.
We loved him so much, you know.
Do you want to look at picturesof him?
Would you like to talk about anice memory?
(11:22):
But we do want to give accurateinformation.
One of the things that wereally want to avoid, too, is
using these sort of terms likeoh, he's gone to sleep, he's in
a bed.
Yeah, right, because again,give kids, yeah, those confusing
messages, okay.
So if I go to what's going tohappen to me, right?
So we really want to be clearwith the language, but kids are
(11:44):
often more able to understandthings than we give them credit
for.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yes, I would.
I would believe that Idefinitely so.
I mean, that kind of brings meto my next question Can children
truly understand death?
I mean, is it a matter of usexplaining it correctly to them
or, you know, is there some typeof built-in mechanism, you know
, that has kind of created, Idon't know, just the ability for
(12:12):
them to understand what hashappened?
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yeah, I think every child is different that way.
I would say definitely withyounger kids, even if we've
explained that the person hasdied, they're not coming back,
that they're still at some pointgoing to be searching for them,
right?
Those are the opportunities tosort of remind them of what
happened, you know, and againuse it to talk about, not to shy
(12:34):
away from.
So we don't want to change thesubject, we don't want to
redirect, you know, again, wereally want to be able to talk
about it with them and to sayyou know, do you remember?
We visited grandma at thehospital, we said goodbye to her
, and now she's gone.
So, you know, if you are, thisis where we can bring in sort of
beliefs too, if you haveparticular beliefs to talk about
(12:58):
where you believe the person is, or you know sort of what
they're doing right now.
If we ourselves aren'tnecessarily sure, we can even
say you know what, some peoplebelieve this, some people
believe this.
You know, what do you think ishappening?
And then it also gives themsort of that little control of
saying you know, yeah, I imaginethat they're doing this now, or
(13:19):
I imagine they're here and it'sa really nice way of them being
able to sort of engage in thatas well.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, yeah, I like that and make the decision for
themselves, cause I know I feellike we're always, you know,
telling the kids what they needto be thinking or how they need
to be feeling, and I've foundthat as a big mistake.
I have a very strong willed,young and boy.
Will she bark back?
She'll tell you what she'sthinking she will, and you know
(13:50):
her logic is always spot on, soI can't argue with it.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
But yeah, that is a really good point.
I think sometimes our intentionas parents, of course, is to
protect our kids, right, wedon't want to scare them, we
don't want them to have pain,uncomfortable feelings, but we
need to remember that thesethings are going to come up in
their life right.
So what we want to do is givethem tools and support in those
situations so that, when they'reolder, we're setting them up to
(14:18):
be able to navigate and manageas adults, as teens, going on in
life.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely yeah.
So do you have any tips thatyou would want to give today to
kind of you know how to startthat conversation with your,
with your child, and how tonavigate it?
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I really think nature providesus with so many wonderful
opportunities for this right.
You know again, know again.
Like I said, we're out for awalk, there's a bug that's dead
there.
There's, you know, a littleworm that's come out after the
rain, that's squished, and youknow, we can use these
opportunities again.
If we have pets, we can usethis opportunity when it happens
(14:55):
with grandparents same type ofthing to talk about death.
I I mean, even in the fall,with nature, as the leaves die
and fall off the trees, we canuse this as an opportunity to
really talk about you know what?
This is just the seasonchanging, there will be new
leaves growing back, but theseleaves that were there now are
gone, they're dead.
(15:16):
And use that.
And again, to use simplelanguage, there's so many
wonderful resources I can sharetoo that I have here as well.
So you know one of the things asparents, if we don't know what
to say, we're uncomfortable.
It's always okay to say youknow what.
But that's a great question.
Can we talk about that tonight?
And then you, as a parent, cango and look at your resources,
(15:38):
right, right, right, get a bitinformed so that then, when
we're talking with them, we knowhow to navigate, because
absolutely sometimes it catchesus off guard.
You know we're driving in thecar and they're like right, why
did grandma die?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Most random question yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, yeah, so I can share the resources if you'd
like.
So this is one.
This is actually the Frenchcopy, but it is available in
English as well.
So Le Fil Invisible, but inEnglish it's the Invisible
String.
Oh, I like that.
This is the translated version.
I also speak French, so that'swhy I have it.
This is a lovely book and it'snot necessarily just grief about
(16:21):
death and dying, but it is awonderful story for that.
It's about two kids, twinsactually but a boy, and girl.
Yeah, so connection with yourfamily.
Yeah, they're scared in thethunderstorm and so they want to
sleep in their mom's room.
And their mom is essentiallytelling them you know what, even
if you're not with me, we'reall connected by an invisible
(16:42):
string of love.
And so she goes on to givedifferent examples, and, of
course, examples of people dying.
So beautiful story to read withkids.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And that's a great way to prepare them to, you know
, through a story as opposed toan actual event.
You know, it's just casuallybringing it up.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
And again, if we don't know the right words to
use, how to talk, the book sortof gives us that language to use
, right, which is really nice aswell, and then we can refer
back to the book.
Do you remember like in thisbook we read they still were
able to talk to theirgrandfathers.
Yeah, yeah.
This is another one that Ireally like Okay, why do things
(17:22):
die?
And what I really like aboutthis one is that it's question
and answers, but lift the flaps.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Oh, those are so sweet.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I love those.
So engaging for kids too.
Right, and I mean it's oneagain that you're not
necessarily going to have toread all in one sitting.
You can flip to different partsKids can kind of explore, but
it's a concrete one that givesreally accurate, simple language
but factual information andways to talk about it to kids.
So the language to use.
(17:51):
You know how to present theseconcepts to them.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, oh nice, those are great resources.
I love that.
I actually will be checkingthose out because I think my
youngest could use a couplestories.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Definitely, it's always nice to have.
I mean, as you know, I'm a bigfan of books.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I am too, yeah, no, I like the idea of a book because
it is that more of a casualconversation, not something
really heavy, not somethingplanned, and it can just kind of
go where it goes through thestory, where it goes through the
story.
You know, you're just lettingthe questions fall out,
basically, instead of droppingone in the car on the way to who
knows where, and wrong lineframe.
(18:33):
Yeah, like what yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Which again are often when they come out, and again,
sometimes kids don't necessarilywant to talk about these things
.
So what we can do too ifsomething's happened and we say,
you know, did you want to talkabout this?
And they say, no, we can justsort of say something like you
know, whenever you're ready, youknow um, you know you can also
talk to.
And we can name a few othersafe people that they might want
(18:59):
to talk to as well, to givethem options.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah, yeah, so that definitely is an issue when they
don't want to open up, but it'sunderstandable, because as an
adult, I don't want to talkabout it either.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
No, so it's yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
So going back to the parent for a minute now how can
a parent grieve while stilltrying to help their child
through the situation?
I think that was personally mybiggest struggle, especially
with my dad.
But it's important as a motherthat you're still there for your
(19:38):
child and kind of prioritizingthe needs.
But is there a way that isbetter to do this?
I mean, I'm sure there's not aneasy way, but what kind of
advice can you give when itcomes to that?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, I'd really say, you know, sometimes, again, we
want to prevent our kids fromseeing us upset but it's okay
for that, for our kids to seethat you know again, if we're
crying because we've lostsomebody, that's a normal
reaction, right?
We need to be letting thosefeelings out so our kids seeing
that is not a bad thing for them.
It's a time to give ourselves alittle bit more grace, in the
(20:15):
sense that maybe it's the timewhere we order out more food,
maybe we eat chicken nuggets alot more than what we're used to
, but it's really the time tosay you know what?
This is a period where maybe Idon't have the mental capacity
to do the things that I wasnormally doing as a parent.
So it's okay if it looks a bitdifferent right now.
You know, it's a time wheremaybe we're going to be using
(20:38):
more screen time again becausemaybe we don't have the capacity
to sit and play with our kidsthe way that we normally would
or engage with them in differentways.
This is also a time, you know,depending on who has passed away
.
But if we have family members,if we have friends that we can
ask for help and that can evenlook like, you know, hey, can
you help with a grocery run, youknow, is there any way you
(21:00):
could drop food off those typesof things, getting them together
with their friends, butbasically trying to keep, for
the most part, their routineconsistent, because that's going
to ground them.
So you know, if they're goingto school, still sending them to
school, right, unless they'rethemselves so upset that they
want to stay home and that wouldlook a little bit different.
(21:21):
But otherwise continuing onwith those routines.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, what do you think about distractions?
So that's one thing that Ithink I did wrong trying to
provide too many distractions,almost so that they won't
experience the grief that theyneed to experience.
I think that's just thatdefense mechanism with mother
you know protection mode, butwhat you know?
(21:48):
What is your thought on that?
Or is that good, bad?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
So I think we want to balance.
If we're using a distraction,right, there's times where that
might be helpful in the sense,you know, we have a funeral to
go to, we don't have childcare,we need to keep our kids
occupied while we're there, sopulling out a screen for them to
be on maybe isn't necessarily abad thing, right?
And you know, when I talk aboutthis, it's not to feel sort of
(22:13):
this blame or shame about theways that we've acted in the
past.
It's to say, you know what, nowthat we know how to better
support our kids, we can do thatmoving forward.
Right, we can always say tothem too you know, I realize
with your youngest, you know, Irealize when grandma passed away
, maybe we didn't include you inso much stuff, maybe we didn't
talk to you.
Would you like to spend sometime now talking about and you
(22:35):
might get it.
No, you know, you sort of openthat door.
Yes, at least the door's open.
Yeah, the door is open andthere's a recognition of it too,
because, again, I thinksometimes kids themselves don't
realize that maybe the griefthey're experiencing now is
because of that.
So, yeah, helping them toconnect the dots too, right.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
They go.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Oh, that's true, Even if they're shutting us down and
shutting us out with it.
So you know, I do think thatit's okay to use distractions in
some senses, but to recognizethat anytime we're not giving
space for those feelings,they're going to come out in a
different way eventually.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it'll only be buried for so long
.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Exactly, definitely not good, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Well, thank you so much for being here today.
Caitlin, Before we go, becausethat was an awesome conversation
, I know you have a book that iscoming out this month.
Can you share a little bitabout?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
that Absolutely, and so it actually ties in nicely
what we were just talking aboutwith giving space to the
emotions.
This is very much why I wrotethis story.
A lot of the adults that I workwith in my practice really
struggle with that and how tosupport their kids when they
themselves don't have the toolsor the knowledge.
So what my goal is is that,with this story, hopefully
(23:58):
adults as well as kids will sortof take away that message that
all feelings are okay and thatwe need to express them all.
We can't keep them in.
My story is about a little boywho is essentially told by
different adults, you know,don't feel too happy, don't feel
too sad, don't feel too angry.
And eventually he stops feelinghis feelings and the world
(24:19):
loses color, and so he needs tofigure out how to get that back.
And he's lucky that he has atrusted adult in his life who
sort of helps him, through art,discover how to get that back.
And he's lucky that he has atrusted adult in his life who
sort of helps him, through art,discover how to do that and
bring the color back to hisworld.
But you know, I really hopethat that takeaway message is
that it's okay to feel thosefeelings and, in fact, important
, even if they're difficult anduncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, no, that's a great way, though, to to explain
it to a child.
I love that going, you know,losing the color, I mean that is
, that's brilliant.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I love that.
Yeah, and you know, I do thinkwhen we, when we don't feel
those hard feelings, we alsosort of suppress the ability to
feel those really great andpositive.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
You just kind of.
I mean, I wouldn't even call itbalance, but you're, you're
just right, You're just nothing.
There's no excitement, there'sno sadness, I don't know yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
And, of course, the title of my book, a rainbow of
feelings.
Very much the rainbow after therain, right.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yes, love that.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Love that.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Awesome.
Well, you know, we will put alink in our show notes to that
if we are able to.
And okay, awesome, good, Ididn't want to say too soon, but
you know I'm totally excitedfor it.
So, yeah, we'll share that inthere.
And then do you want to telleverybody where they can find
you, because I'm sure they'regoing to have questions and I
(25:43):
would love them to connect withyou.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I'm most active on Instagram,on social media, so you can find
me at Caitlin Seguin or mywebsite wwwcaitlinseguincom.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Easy to remember.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yes, very easy to remember, and I love hearing
from people.
I love sharing differentexperiences, so anybody who
would love to connect I would beso happy to hear from you,
great.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Great Well.
Again, thank you so much forbeing here and I hope everyone
enjoyed this kind of toughdiscussion but necessary.
Thanks for joining us today onshe's Got it Together.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
It's been a real journey, sharing and laughing
with you all.
We hope you're walking awaywith a smile on your face and a
bit more confidence in your step.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Remember, you're not alone in this crazy ride called
life.
We're all in this together, oneday at a time.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review and
, of course, share this podcastwith all the incredible women in
your life.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Join us next week for more stories, more laughs and
more real talk.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Until then, keep embracing your unique journey
and remember you've got ittogether more than you think.
Yeah, so I think when we're supporting kids with
grief, first of all it's reallyimportant to look at the context
.
So in this situation, there'sthe grief of losing the person
right now, but there's also thegrief previously, so that might
be exploring both of thosescenarios.
And she wasn't involved in alot of the events prior, so it
(00:20):
might be reopening some of that,looking at old pictures of that
person, talking about thosememories and maybe about those
feelings.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hi everyone, and welcome to a brand new episode
of she's Got it Together.
I'm your host, Jessica.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
And I'm Samantha.
Each week we peel back thecurtain on what it really looks
like to have it together.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
From the messy moments to the milestones, we're
here to share it all.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
So grab your favorite drink, get comfy and let's dive
into today's topic.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
A few months ago we lost a very important family
member.
It was my grandma, my girl'sgreat grandma, and this wasn't
the first loss that they hadexperienced.
But it was being old enough tokind of understand what's going
on.
So today I have brought onCaitlin Sequin and we're going
to talk about the heavy topic ofdeath.
(01:16):
I mean, it's not a fun topicbut unfortunately it's
inevitable and everyone is goingto experience it.
But children seem to experienceit a little bit different, a
little bit harder for them tokind of digest the whole
situation.
So, caitlin, she's a therapistand an author of a brand new
children's book, a Rainbow ofFeelings, which I haven't seen
(01:37):
yet and I don't know if it'spublished yet or not.
I think it was coming out thismonth, but I'm super excited
because it's on my list to get.
I think it'll be really, reallycool for my kids.
But before I go into all ofthat, I want to welcome Caitlin.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So Caitlin, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Thank you so much for having me.
Jessica, it's lovely to be here.
Yes, this is, like I said, aheavy topic, but I think it's
one that's very important todiscuss.
So can you give us a little bitof a background?
You know, like we know, you'rea therapist, obviously an author
and things, but where did thispiece of you know understanding
the grief with children comeinto play?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, so it's a topic that I focus on in my practice
as a therapist.
I've had my own experienceswith grief throughout my life,
starting as a child, of coursewith grandparents, and then in
the last number of years I'vealso lost a sibling.
So that's been quite difficultnavigating that, and so
professionally I have mytraining.
But navigating that myself as aparent, having children during
(02:36):
that period, really shed lighton the difficulty that this can
bring up and so how to helpchildren with that.
So that's a little bit ofbackground about myself, sort of
the professional drive behindit as well as the personal.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yes, no, that's great .
So let's kind of just beginwith.
You know how do childrenexperience grief?
Is it different than adults?
Can you kind of just explain?
You know how it differs?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Absolutely so.
Kids, especially young kids,really struggle with object
permanency.
When they're really little, ofcourse, if they can't see us,
for them we don't exist anymore.
Right as they get older theybegin to understand that if they
can't see something, if a toyis invisible, a person that it
still does exist.
But I think this conceptconcept again of something being
(03:24):
gone permanently is a reallydifficult one for kids to grasp.
It's not very concrete, it'ssort of an abstract concept and
kids often struggle with thosemore abstract concepts.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would definitely have to agree
with that.
So we lost, like I hadmentioned, my grandmother this
past fall.
So that would be their greatgrandmother and, being someone
that we're pretty close with orvery we really were very close
with that was a challenge, eventhough it was something that we
(03:59):
could foresee coming in in thenear future.
She was 95.
So it wasn't one of those just,you know, spontaneous or just
those random.
You know, it wasn't an accident, it wasn't like that.
She, you know, she was up therein age and it's something that
I think as an adult I guess Iwas prepared for.
(04:19):
But I didn't realize that mykids weren't necessarily, even
though we talked about it andwe'd visited her, you know,
often in the nursing home andthings like that, it was still
still a huge struggle, Um, alittle bit more than I had
realized it was going to be.
But then, going even furtherback, um, about six years ago,
(04:41):
my dad passed away suddenly.
So my youngest was too young,she, you know, at the time I
think she was four so she didn'tparticipate in, I guess, the
funeral and things like that,Because she just didn't
understand that part.
But my oldest at the time wouldhave been about 10.
(05:03):
And she did go and she did, youknow, the burial.
There's a lot going on with itbecause I thought it was
important for her to experienceit because they were both close
with him.
But it was very interesting tosee how now my youngest reflects
(05:25):
back on that, now that she'solder and we've just had another
loss.
She reflects back on thatoriginal one and is kind of
overcome with grief now, Likeshe's almost re-experiencing the
grief which I was not preparedfor.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, that's actually a really common thing to have
happen.
Often grief we don'tnecessarily realize because we
think each instance of grief issort of a separate thing, but
actually it's, they're allconnected.
So when we experience a newgrief, feelings that we have
from a previous loss and itdoesn't necessarily have to be
(06:04):
the loss of somebody either Ifwe've had the loss of, you know,
moving houses, changing schools, friendship, the loss of
somebody can bring up those samefeelings of grief.
So when we haven't had a chanceto sort of express the emotions
and move through it, absolutelythose feelings and those
emotions are going to come backup with a new loss.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Okay, yeah, I mean, that's essentially what happened
then.
It was very surprising becauseI guess to me I'm like that was
compartmentalized event.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
You know, and it was already dealt with.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
And now, because we were trying to navigate this as
parents and without being upsetlike you know, what are you
doing here?
What's going on, you know,still being, you know, aware of
her feelings, but then alsotrying to figure out is this are
we having some shenanigans here?
Are we trying, you know, younever know, with kids sometimes?
(06:59):
It was quite an interestingsituation, because I don't feel
as though adults have that,because we seem to have grieved
during each event.
I don't know if maybe that'sjust me, maybe that does come up
for adults too, where, you know, it's kind of that residual
(07:20):
comes right back up.
But as far as kids, it justseems like it was, um, like the
event was new, like it hadhappened again, um, so how would
you navigate through somethinglike that?
Or, you know, like, what areyour suggestions for something?
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah.
So I think when we'resupporting kids with grief,
first of all it's reallyimportant to look at the context
.
So in this situation, there'sthe grief of losing the person
right now, but there's also thegrief previously.
So that might be exploring bothof those scenarios and she
wasn't involved in a lot of theevents prior, so it might be
(07:57):
reopening some of that stuff,looking at old pictures of that
person, talking about thosememories and maybe about those
feelings.
With little kids, they often actout things in their play.
So you might notice kids, ofcourse, if they've had a recent
loss once, they're sort ofprocessing it, so it may not
happen right away.
It might be like six monthslater we might see them playing
(08:21):
with their dolls and they'relike oh, you're dead, oh, you're
in the hospital and you'redying.
This can be really jarring as aparent.
Yeah, you know we're like, ohmy gosh, do I need to know
what's going on, right, right.
But it's really important tolet them act those pieces out.
It can also give us informationabout what are the pieces that
(08:41):
they're hanging on to.
What are the messages.
So if the kids are focused onenacting out pieces of you know,
I'm at the hospital and I'msick and now I'm dying.
We can understand that thoseare the messages that are sort
of stuck in their brain thatthey might need help talking
about.
So we might want to go back tothem and say you know, do you
remember when grandma was in thehospital?
(09:03):
Do you remember going to visither and helping her talk out,
sort of have a narrative aboutit.
If there's a piece that'scoming up almost as a fear, sort
of exploring that too, right.
So if it's, you know they'renow afraid of getting sick or
going to the hospital, you knowwe can connect that maybe for
them, going to the hospital orgetting sick might imply that
(09:26):
something's going to happen.
So, reassuring them that youcan be sick, you can go to the
hospital, most people will walkout of the hospital, right?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.
That's very enlightening tothink about it that way, I
suppose because I don't thinkthat is well.
My mind, I guess, wouldn'tnecessarily go that direction,
right, but yes, it does.
It does make sense when you,when you break it down like that
, so do children, I mean, whenthey experience a loss.
(09:59):
Can they, I mean, are theyunderstanding the situation?
Is there like an age where youwould say that the comprehension
of what has happened sets in,or is it just, you know, person
to person, child to child?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
I think it definitely builds as kids get older.
I think, as parents, one of thethings that we often shy away
from the topic of death withkids.
I mean how often you know, evenoutside, if there's a bug.
You know, we've heard peoplesay oh he's just sleeping.
Right, you know he's fine, he'sjust asleep, instead of saying
you know that that bug is dead.
Because, again, we think we'regoing to be frightening our kids
(10:39):
by giving this information.
But those are actually reallygreat learning opportunities for
them to begin to understandwhat death is and what death
looks like.
So we really want to take thoseopportunities and give them
that information.
So correct information, reallysimple words.
Right, we don't need to go onthese big, long explanations
about what's going on.
(11:00):
We don't need to go on thesebig, long explanations about
what's going on.
But if we have a pet at homethat dies, we really want to be
honest with the information thatyou know.
Our dog, you know, died.
We brought him to the vet,right, he died.
We want to give thatinformation.
Right, he was surrounded bylove.
We loved him so much, you know.
Do you want to look at picturesof him?
Would you like to talk about anice memory?
(11:22):
But we do want to give accurateinformation.
One of the things that wereally want to avoid, too, is
using these sort of terms likeoh, he's gone to sleep, he's in
a bed.
Yeah, right, because again,give kids, yeah, those confusing
messages, okay.
So if I go to what's going tohappen to me, right?
So we really want to be clearwith the language, but kids are
(11:44):
often more able to understandthings than we give them credit
for.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yes, I would.
I would believe that Idefinitely so.
I mean, that kind of brings meto my next question Can children
truly understand death?
I mean, is it a matter of usexplaining it correctly to them
or, you know, is there some typeof built-in mechanism, you know
, that has kind of created, Idon't know, just the ability for
(12:12):
them to understand what hashappened?
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yeah, I think every child is different that way.
I would say definitely withyounger kids, even if we've
explained that the person hasdied, they're not coming back,
that they're still at some pointgoing to be searching for them,
right?
Those are the opportunities tosort of remind them of what
happened, you know, and againuse it to talk about, not to shy
(12:34):
away from.
So we don't want to change thesubject, we don't want to
redirect, you know, again, wereally want to be able to talk
about it with them and to sayyou know, do you remember?
We visited grandma at thehospital, we said goodbye to her
, and now she's gone.
So, you know, if you are, thisis where we can bring in sort of
beliefs too, if you haveparticular beliefs to talk about
(12:58):
where you believe the person is, or you know sort of what
they're doing right now.
If we ourselves aren'tnecessarily sure, we can even
say you know what, some peoplebelieve this, some people
believe this.
You know, what do you think ishappening?
And then it also gives themsort of that little control of
saying you know, yeah, I imaginethat they're doing this now, or
(13:19):
I imagine they're here and it'sa really nice way of them being
able to sort of engage in thatas well.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, yeah, I like that and make the decision for
themselves, cause I know I feellike we're always, you know,
telling the kids what they needto be thinking or how they need
to be feeling, and I've foundthat as a big mistake.
I have a very strong willed,young and boy.
Will she bark back?
She'll tell you what she'sthinking she will, and you know
(13:50):
her logic is always spot on, soI can't argue with it.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
But yeah, that is a really good point.
I think sometimes our intentionas parents, of course, is to
protect our kids, right, wedon't want to scare them, we
don't want them to have pain,uncomfortable feelings, but we
need to remember that thesethings are going to come up in
their life right.
So what we want to do is givethem tools and support in those
situations so that, when they'reolder, we're setting them up to
(14:18):
be able to navigate and manageas adults, as teens, going on in
life.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely yeah.
So do you have any tips thatyou would want to give today to
kind of you know how to startthat conversation with your,
with your child, and how tonavigate it?
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I really think nature providesus with so many wonderful
opportunities for this right.
You know again, know again.
Like I said, we're out for awalk, there's a bug that's dead
there.
There's, you know, a littleworm that's come out after the
rain, that's squished, and youknow, we can use these
opportunities again.
If we have pets, we can usethis opportunity when it happens
(14:55):
with grandparents same type ofthing to talk about death.
I I mean, even in the fall,with nature, as the leaves die
and fall off the trees, we canuse this as an opportunity to
really talk about you know what?
This is just the seasonchanging, there will be new
leaves growing back, but theseleaves that were there now are
gone, they're dead.
(15:16):
And use that.
And again, to use simplelanguage, there's so many
wonderful resources I can sharetoo that I have here as well.
So you know one of the things asparents, if we don't know what
to say, we're uncomfortable.
It's always okay to say youknow what.
But that's a great question.
Can we talk about that tonight?
And then you, as a parent, cango and look at your resources,
(15:38):
right, right, right, get a bitinformed so that then, when
we're talking with them, we knowhow to navigate, because
absolutely sometimes it catchesus off guard.
You know we're driving in thecar and they're like right, why
did grandma die?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Most random question yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, yeah, so I can share the resources if you'd
like.
So this is one.
This is actually the Frenchcopy, but it is available in
English as well.
So Le Fil Invisible, but inEnglish it's the Invisible
String.
Oh, I like that.
This is the translated version.
I also speak French, so that'swhy I have it.
This is a lovely book and it'snot necessarily just grief about
(16:21):
death and dying, but it is awonderful story for that.
It's about two kids, twinsactually but a boy, and girl.
Yeah, so connection with yourfamily.
Yeah, they're scared in thethunderstorm and so they want to
sleep in their mom's room.
And their mom is essentiallytelling them you know what, even
if you're not with me, we'reall connected by an invisible
(16:42):
string of love.
And so she goes on to givedifferent examples, and, of
course, examples of people dying.
So beautiful story to read withkids.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And that's a great way to prepare them to, you know
, through a story as opposed toan actual event.
You know, it's just casuallybringing it up.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
And again, if we don't know the right words to
use, how to talk, the book sortof gives us that language to use
, right, which is really nice aswell, and then we can refer
back to the book.
Do you remember like in thisbook we read they still were
able to talk to theirgrandfathers.
Yeah, yeah.
This is another one that Ireally like Okay, why do things
(17:22):
die?
And what I really like aboutthis one is that it's question
and answers, but lift the flaps.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Oh, those are so sweet.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I love those.
So engaging for kids too.
Right, and I mean it's oneagain that you're not
necessarily going to have toread all in one sitting.
You can flip to different partsKids can kind of explore, but
it's a concrete one that givesreally accurate, simple language
but factual information andways to talk about it to kids.
So the language to use.
(17:51):
You know how to present theseconcepts to them.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, oh nice, those are great resources.
I love that.
I actually will be checkingthose out because I think my
youngest could use a couplestories.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Definitely, it's always nice to have.
I mean, as you know, I'm a bigfan of books.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I am too, yeah, no, I like the idea of a book because
it is that more of a casualconversation, not something
really heavy, not somethingplanned, and it can just kind of
go where it goes through thestory, where it goes through the
story.
You know, you're just lettingthe questions fall out,
basically, instead of droppingone in the car on the way to who
knows where, and wrong lineframe.
(18:33):
Yeah, like what yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Which again are often when they come out, and again,
sometimes kids don't necessarilywant to talk about these things
.
So what we can do too ifsomething's happened and we say,
you know, did you want to talkabout this?
And they say, no, we can justsort of say something like you
know, whenever you're ready, youknow um, you know you can also
talk to.
And we can name a few othersafe people that they might want
(18:59):
to talk to as well, to givethem options.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah, yeah, so that definitely is an issue when they
don't want to open up, but it'sunderstandable, because as an
adult, I don't want to talkabout it either.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
No, so it's yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
So going back to the parent for a minute now how can
a parent grieve while stilltrying to help their child
through the situation?
I think that was personally mybiggest struggle, especially
with my dad.
But it's important as a motherthat you're still there for your
(19:38):
child and kind of prioritizingthe needs.
But is there a way that isbetter to do this?
I mean, I'm sure there's not aneasy way, but what kind of
advice can you give when itcomes to that?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, I'd really say, you know, sometimes, again, we
want to prevent our kids fromseeing us upset but it's okay
for that, for our kids to seethat you know again, if we're
crying because we've lostsomebody, that's a normal
reaction, right?
We need to be letting thosefeelings out so our kids seeing
that is not a bad thing for them.
It's a time to give ourselves alittle bit more grace, in the
(20:15):
sense that maybe it's the timewhere we order out more food,
maybe we eat chicken nuggets alot more than what we're used to
, but it's really the time tosay you know what?
This is a period where maybe Idon't have the mental capacity
to do the things that I wasnormally doing as a parent.
So it's okay if it looks a bitdifferent right now.
You know, it's a time wheremaybe we're going to be using
(20:38):
more screen time again becausemaybe we don't have the capacity
to sit and play with our kidsthe way that we normally would
or engage with them in differentways.
This is also a time, you know,depending on who has passed away
.
But if we have family members,if we have friends that we can
ask for help and that can evenlook like, you know, hey, can
you help with a grocery run, youknow, is there any way you
(21:00):
could drop food off those typesof things, getting them together
with their friends, butbasically trying to keep, for
the most part, their routineconsistent, because that's going
to ground them.
So you know, if they're goingto school, still sending them to
school, right, unless they'rethemselves so upset that they
want to stay home and that wouldlook a little bit different.
(21:21):
But otherwise continuing onwith those routines.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, what do you think about distractions?
So that's one thing that Ithink I did wrong trying to
provide too many distractions,almost so that they won't
experience the grief that theyneed to experience.
I think that's just thatdefense mechanism with mother
you know protection mode, butwhat you know?
(21:48):
What is your thought on that?
Or is that good, bad?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
So I think we want to balance.
If we're using a distraction,right, there's times where that
might be helpful in the sense,you know, we have a funeral to
go to, we don't have childcare,we need to keep our kids
occupied while we're there, sopulling out a screen for them to
be on maybe isn't necessarily abad thing, right?
And you know, when I talk aboutthis, it's not to feel sort of
(22:13):
this blame or shame about theways that we've acted in the
past.
It's to say, you know what, nowthat we know how to better
support our kids, we can do thatmoving forward.
Right, we can always say tothem too you know, I realize
with your youngest, you know, Irealize when grandma passed away
, maybe we didn't include you inso much stuff, maybe we didn't
talk to you.
Would you like to spend sometime now talking about and you
(22:35):
might get it.
No, you know, you sort of openthat door.
Yes, at least the door's open.
Yeah, the door is open andthere's a recognition of it too,
because, again, I thinksometimes kids themselves don't
realize that maybe the griefthey're experiencing now is
because of that.
So, yeah, helping them toconnect the dots too, right.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
They go.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Oh, that's true, Even if they're shutting us down and
shutting us out with it.
So you know, I do think thatit's okay to use distractions in
some senses, but to recognizethat anytime we're not giving
space for those feelings,they're going to come out in a
different way eventually.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it'll only be buried for so long
.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Exactly, definitely not good, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Well, thank you so much for being here today.
Caitlin, Before we go, becausethat was an awesome conversation
, I know you have a book that iscoming out this month.
Can you share a little bitabout?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
that Absolutely, and so it actually ties in nicely
what we were just talking aboutwith giving space to the
emotions.
This is very much why I wrotethis story.
A lot of the adults that I workwith in my practice really
struggle with that and how tosupport their kids when they
themselves don't have the toolsor the knowledge.
So what my goal is is that,with this story, hopefully
(23:58):
adults as well as kids will sortof take away that message that
all feelings are okay and thatwe need to express them all.
We can't keep them in.
My story is about a little boywho is essentially told by
different adults, you know,don't feel too happy, don't feel
too sad, don't feel too angry.
And eventually he stops feelinghis feelings and the world
(24:19):
loses color, and so he needs tofigure out how to get that back.
And he's lucky that he has atrusted adult in his life who
sort of helps him, through art,discover how to get that back.
And he's lucky that he has atrusted adult in his life who
sort of helps him, through art,discover how to do that and
bring the color back to hisworld.
But you know, I really hopethat that takeaway message is
that it's okay to feel thosefeelings and, in fact, important
, even if they're difficult anduncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, no, that's a great way, though, to to explain
it to a child.
I love that going, you know,losing the color, I mean that is
, that's brilliant.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I love that.
Yeah, and you know, I do thinkwhen we, when we don't feel
those hard feelings, we alsosort of suppress the ability to
feel those really great andpositive.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
You just kind of.
I mean, I wouldn't even call itbalance, but you're, you're
just right, You're just nothing.
There's no excitement, there'sno sadness, I don't know yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
And, of course, the title of my book, a rainbow of
feelings.
Very much the rainbow after therain, right.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yes, love that.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Love that.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Awesome.
Well, you know, we will put alink in our show notes to that
if we are able to.
And okay, awesome, good, Ididn't want to say too soon, but
you know I'm totally excitedfor it.
So, yeah, we'll share that inthere.
And then do you want to telleverybody where they can find
you, because I'm sure they'regoing to have questions and I
(25:43):
would love them to connect withyou.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I'm most active on Instagram,on social media, so you can find
me at Caitlin Seguin or mywebsite wwwcaitlinseguincom.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Easy to remember.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yes, very easy to remember, and I love hearing
from people.
I love sharing differentexperiences, so anybody who
would love to connect I would beso happy to hear from you,
great.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Great Well.
Again, thank you so much forbeing here and I hope everyone
enjoyed this kind of toughdiscussion but necessary.
Thanks for joining us today onshe's Got it Together.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
It's been a real journey, sharing and laughing
with you all.
We hope you're walking awaywith a smile on your face and a
bit more confidence in your step.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Remember, you're not alone in this crazy ride called
life.
We're all in this together, oneday at a time.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review and
, of course, share this podcastwith all the incredible women in
your life.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Join us next week for more stories, more laughs and
more real talk.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Until then, keep embracing your unique journey
and remember you've got ittogether more than you think.
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