March 11, 2025 • 53 mins
In our current moment of cultural fragmentation and existential anxiety, the traditional frameworks of engagement feel increasingly inadequate. Andrew Root's latest work, “Evangelism in an Age of Despair” isn't just a theological treatise, or a how-to evangelism book, but a profound meditation on human connection in an age of profound disconnection. What happens when we shift our understanding of evangelism from a transactional model of belief to a relational practice of genuine with-ness? Andy suggests something more radical than conversion: a form of spiritual presence that honors the complexity of human suffering. We're living through an era where loneliness has become a systemic condition, where happiness is marketed as a consumable product, and where genuine human vulnerability is increasingly rare. Root's approach doesn't offer easy solutions, but instead proposes a more nuanced engagement with our collective pain. This conversation is less about religious doctrine and more about the fundamental human need for meaningful connection - a need that transcends ideological boundaries and touches something more elemental about how we understand ourselves and each other. Join us as we seek the consolation of Christ in the desolation of our lives.
Andrew Root (Ph.D., Princeton Theological Seminary) is the Carrie Olson Baalson professor of youth and family ministry at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.
Andrew Root is the Carrie Olson Baalson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary, USA. He writes and researches in areas of theology, ministry, culture and younger generations. His most recent books are Churches and the Crisis of Decline (Baker, 2022), The Congregation in a Secular Age (Baker, 2021), The End of Youth Ministry? (Baker, 2020), The Pastor in a Secular Age: Ministry to People Who No Longer Need God (Baker, 2019), Faith Formation in a Secular Age (Baker, 2017), and Exploding Stars, Dead Dinosaurs, and Zombies: Youth Ministry in the Age of Science (Fortress Press, 2018). Andy has worked in congregations, parachurch ministries, and social service programs. He lives in St. Paul with his wife Kara, two children, Owen and Maisy, and their dog. When not reading, writing, or teaching, Andy spends far too much time watching TV and movies.
Andrew's Book:
Evangelism in an Age of Despair
Andrew's Recommendation:
Severance
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andrew Root (00:00):
Their very personhood, their very humanity,
(00:03):
their very care for the otherwho is in sorrow, becomes a
proclamation of the gospel. Itbecomes a kind of sacramental
moment where we make a claim,where we confess that God moves
and act.
Unknown (00:22):
Oh, hello
Joshua Johnson (00:31):
and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in
which we have conversationsabout the culture we create and
the impact we can make. We longto see the body of Christ look
like Jesus. I'm your host.
Joshua Johnson, in our currentmoment of cultural fragmentation
and existential anxiety, thetraditional frameworks of
engagement feel increasinglyinadequate. Andrew roots, latest
work, evangelism in an age ofdespair, isn't just a
(00:52):
theological treatise or a how toevangelism book, but a profound
meditation on human connectionin an age of profound
disconnection. What happens whenwe shift our understanding of
evangelism from a transactionalmodel of belief to a relational
practice of genuine withness?
Well Andy suggests somethingmore radical than conversion, a
(01:13):
form of spiritual presence thathonors the complexity of human
suffering. We're living throughan era where loneliness has
become a systemic conditionwhere happiness is marketed as a
consumable product and wheregenuine human vulnerability is
increasingly rare. Roots.
Approach doesn't offer easysolutions, but instead proposes
a more nuanced engagement withour collective pain. This
(01:34):
conversation is less aboutreligious doctrine and more
about the fundamental human needfor meaningful connection, a
need that transcends ideologicalboundaries and touches something
more elemental about how weunderstand ourselves and each
other. So join us as we seek theconsolation of Christ in the
desolation of our lives. Here'smy conversation with Andrew
(01:55):
root. Well Andy, welcome back toshifting culture. So excited to
have you on. Thanks for joiningme again. Yeah, it's great to be
here. Thanks. Yeah, it wasweird. You know, in 2024 I
didn't have you on the podcast,and I didn't know what to do
with myself. I looked back, Iwas like, Andrew root was not on
the podcast. Wow.
Andrew Root (02:18):
Yeah, so was 23 I was on and yeah, you were on
twice
Joshua Johnson (02:23):
in 23 okay, in 2022 so, yeah,
Andrew Root (02:27):
yeah. So, yeah, I don't know I should get a punch
card for this. I guess, yeah,
Joshua Johnson (02:31):
you need a punch card. You, you have now taken
the lead again with the personwho's on the most. So that's a
few people that caught up atthree, and now you're taking the
lead. Okay,
Andrew Root (02:44):
so I'm the norm.
McDonald to your Conan O'Brien,that's right, like the
reoccurring people, come on.
That's right. If you
Joshua Johnson (02:55):
could tell the moth joke in like eight minutes,
I think I was single, too. Yeah,
Unknown (03:02):
give it a little theological twist. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (03:04):
that's right, that's good. You have a new
book, evangelism in the age ofdespair, and you wrote right at
the beginning is that it's kindof hard, that it's not a model
of evangelism for the churchthat we could take and we could
use and we can see some, youknow, 10 to 15% growth year over
year, and we'll be all set. Butit is a book, really about
(03:28):
consolation, and meeting peopleon the consolation. Why then are
you writing that an evangelismbook about consolation?
Andrew Root (03:39):
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a, it's a good question.
So, yeah, I don't know. I mean,I don't know how you feel, but I
find a lot really helpful inevangelism books. I mean, first
of all, just evangelism as aconcept, feels like it's, it's
contested, or, I don't know,like in the world I'm in, you
either get people who boldlysay, like, the church needs to
(04:03):
get back to evangelism. And thenthe next line is, because
there's no people here, orbecause, you know, some
political thing, or some socialsome social reality, that we
need evangelism. Or else, what Ifind a lot is in kind of more
mainline communities, you getpeople who almost say under
(04:24):
their breath whisper to you, youknow, maybe we just need to do
Evangel like they almost feelashamed to say that. And so
partly it was just trying tothink about, what do we actually
why would? Why are? Why is therethis odd kind of tension where
we feel like we weren't weshouldn't be about evangelism
(04:44):
anymore, and yet we all want tobe about evangelism, like we're
of two minds, I think on that.
So is partly trying to kind ofexplore that. But then, you
know, back to these evangelismbooks, like, there's a there's a
lot of really good ones, butthey tend to come. List
different models of things youcan do and and I think there's a
lot we can learn out of those,but I just didn't feel like
(05:05):
maybe I was qualified to dothat, or wanted to do that. So
really, I'm trying to kind ofthink as as my whole project
really has been about broadly,is kind of thinking of the
theology at the cross and tryingto think of every kind of
practical form ministry throughthe theology of the cross. So
the experiment really is likehow to think the theology that
cross in evangelism like thoseseem in some sense, to be kind
(05:28):
of water and oil that they don'treally mix in some ways. But I'm
trying to make a case that theyactually can if we if we see
them a certain way, I think
Joshua Johnson (05:40):
if they don't mix, I think we're probably
doing it wrong. Yeah, so, Imean, we need to get back to
that. So let's zoom out a littlebit to to talk a little bit
about the state of the worldthat we're in right now, and
why, and what are the some ofthe predominant evangelistic
methods that were that you haveseen, that maybe you're not
(06:04):
speaking to the world that we'reliving in.
Andrew Root (06:09):
Yeah. I mean, I just think that we tend to, when
we think of evangelism, we tendto kind of think, oh, some kind
of church marketing form in someways, like, you know, maybe it's
to market the church, or it'strying to make a persuasive case
for people to believe something.
So it becomes kind ofpropositional. Like, the whole
(06:30):
point of evangelism is that youknow these five things, and
really they're four things, youknow, the the four, the four
things you need to know the fourspiritual laws that we go
through those then at the end,you're cool with that, and then
you've been evangelized. Youknow, like, that's one kind of
perspective that I think playsin. But I think another one is a
(06:52):
kind of sense, like we make acase for why the church or the
Christian faith is goods, is agood to your life, and why it
adds value, really, and thatthat should be the way to go.
And, you know, then, then wejust that confronts in one way
or another. It puts a demand onus to really, I mean,
(07:13):
evangelism, in kind of a form ofmath is is pretty
interconnected, like you'resupposed to count something. Now
maybe we don't count how manypeople came forward at an altar
call, though that's been kind ofone way people have tended to
think of evangelism. But we tendto kind of think this is why,
like I said, people say it undertheir breath, like maybe we need
(07:34):
evangelism because they lookaround and think we need more
people in these pews, and maybethat's the way you should do it.
But I think what that ultimatelygets to is some kind of
instrumental kind of view ofevangelism. And what I'm trying
to get at in this book, I think,is at its core, there's a way to
think about evangelism in a morekind of sacramental vein, that
(07:56):
it is really an invitation forpeople to be taken up into the
life of Jesus Christ. Thatdoesn't demand a certain form of
counting, though it does demanda certain assertion about what
it means to encounter thisliving Jesus Christ and to
invite people into that kind ofof life. So at that level it is,
(08:17):
is evangelism. But I also amtrying to kind of pivot us away
from thinking that we need tocount it becomes a form of
marketing, or that it justbecomes a kind of practice that
has to die inside of pluralisticsociety, like, if you want to be
a truly open person in in youcan't really be about
evangelism, because then you aremaking a case that the way
(08:39):
people live their lives isn'tgood enough, or if they grew up
in one kind of religioustradition, that's not a value.
And I don't know I find that tobe not a really helpful way of
thinking about it.
Joshua Johnson (08:53):
So if that's not helpful, can you just define
what you think evangelism is?
Then what is evangelism? Yeah,
Andrew Root (09:01):
you know, for me, it is this kind of sacramental
reality, in the sense thatevangelism is, you know,
ultimately goes back toBonhoeffer, everything for me
does, but it is really hearingthe call of Jesus Christ, to
follow, and to really hear that,call it, and to follow that. And
there is a contextual element tothat, too. I mean, I mean, I
(09:21):
think that's one of the thingsthat keeps people kind of
interested in evangelism. Orsometimes people even there's a
kind of blurry line betweenevangelism and mission. You
know, they almost seem likeyou're saying the same thing,
that they kind of fit togetherin a certain way, that that way,
and I and so there is a way thatit is a call into something. It
is a call to follow this livingJesus Christ. But the way I'm
(09:44):
trying to think about it, putsdiscipleship and evangelism
really close together, like theyare. They are really in some
sense, one in the same is, isthe evangelistic move is to hear
the call and the discipleship isalways what it means to
continue. You to follow withinthat, yeah, but there is this
contextual element. That's whyit's been kind of linked with
(10:06):
with mission. And the kind ofargument I'm trying to make in
the book is that we have, we dohave to think contextually, but
that thinking contextuallyshouldn't keep us from really
thinking theologically, in thesense of the sacramental, like,
how does the divine and thehuman engage each other here?
Because, again, I think we dofocus so much on the human
(10:27):
agent. Will you believe this?
What kind of message will bepersuasive? Is it going to be
apologetic? Is it emotional?
What kind of thing will willconvert you? And I do think
there's a contextual elementhere, but I think that
contextual element opens up to areality that it can't be
instrumentalized that way.
Joshua Johnson (10:46):
It reminds me of when Jesus said, you know, come
to me all of you who are wearyand heavy laden, because my yoke
is easy, easy. My burden islight, right? So it is a
everybody is weary, depressed,anxious, they're they're sad.
There's something happening inthis world where we need an
encounter with this livingChrist, and then his yoke is
(11:09):
easy. This is where yoke to himis we actually then follow him
into discipleship. Yeah, I thinkthat's a beautiful picture of
what it looks like, what Jesusis inviting people into, and the
type of people he's inviting.
And I
Andrew Root (11:24):
mean, the first half of the book tries to really
make the argument that we'reliving in particularly kind of
sad times, as you were just kindof referencing there the in one
of the reasons we're just sodeeply sad is because we're so
hell bent, committed to beinghappy. And here we are in the
third decade of the 21stcentury. And I think it's pretty
fair to say these have beenreally, you know, quite sad
(11:46):
times, whether we look at youngpeople and how anxious they are,
or how, you know, depressionlevels are off the charts, or
just overall, people just feelfundamentally lonely. And part
of that is we, we keep lookingto be really happy and the
project of just wanting to behappy has kind of failed us. So
whatever context we do, I thinkevangelism in at this time or or
(12:08):
even if you know we feeluncomfortable with that word,
how we invite people torecognize and follow Jesus
Christ, we will be speaking, Ithink, to a deeply, kind of
existentially sad people. I
Joshua Johnson (12:21):
just interviewed Zach near crebs, who was the
pastor gave the sermon atAsbury, Asbury, oh yeah, and
just happened. He said themajority of what happened during
that time were people actuallyconnecting and getting each
other's phone number and beinghappy to be with one another. It
felt like a time where theloneliness of our age was
(12:46):
actually being swept away, andwe were starting to connect to
each other as well, he said, andI think that is what the Spirit
is doing on the earth. This ishow God is wanting to encounter
us, especially because we'relonely. We have a loneliness
epidemic. We want to beconnected to each other, and so
I think you're right. Soevangelism, discipleship, are
(13:09):
connected so much thatevangelism should bring us into
a connection with a with apeople that is following the way
of Jesus. How does the move intofrom actually meeting people in
their sadness and theirloneliness and then connecting
them into community as a parthas been lost in evangelism,
(13:30):
yeah, and people in community,
Andrew Root (13:33):
yeah, in the you know, this is a well, all of my
books, in some ways, are weirdbooks, as as You know, Josh,
like, I love them there, youknow, I try to tell the story of
a church that's, you know,inspired from a bunch of
different churches I know andpastors I know. But also, this
is weaved together as afictional story, but then I'm
(13:53):
also telling you a historicalstory, and then, you know, try
to take you beyond your so thisis, this is kind of a French
book in some ways, like, youknow, like the church is not in
France. My gosh, no, it's like aSouthern California Church. The
kind of protagonists of the bigideas are French. So part of my
point is, like the, if you will,the creator of the drive to be
(14:17):
happy goes back to this lateRenaissance thinker named
Michelle de Montaigne, who hadthis deep sense that what you do
is it's to be the way to live isto live a happy life, and that
means returning to the chateau,getting away from the court, and
just enjoying your life,enjoying writing and reading and
petting your cat and gardening.
And there's a kind of sense thatthis is what it means to be to
(14:41):
live a good life, is to live ahappy life that is this kind of
independent, kind of on your ownchateau. And what's really
fascinating about that is one ofthe great lovers of Michelle de
Montaigne was Thomas Jefferson.
Thomas Jefferson was trying hisvision of America was a land of.
People living on chateaus,living on little farms, living
(15:04):
their happy life, you know, justhappily on their own. That's why
he's always against the kind ofFederalists like, you know,
we're not going to centralize agovernment, because then you you
lose the freedom to just behappy, you know, to live your
kind of happy life. Well, Imean, this is a quite a long
story, but I think to get toyour point about the community
in the 18th century, the greatthinker, Blaise Pascal, to be
(15:26):
kind of crass, knew that monteinwas full of crap like this
couldn't work. It couldn't workto be happy. And I think we're
now seeing in the Americanproject that maybe it never has
worked, but that people reallyfeel quite unhappy, and the more
unhappy they are, the morethey're hell bent that they just
want to be happy, like I said.
But Pascal's basic point is thathe he thought you could know it
was impossible. It's animpossible drive to ever be
(15:48):
happy. Maybe a couple peoplecan, you know, do it. But he
thinks that you you misssomething that's fundamental to
the human experience. And Pascalbelieve this because he was a
gambler, like before, he had hisgreat conversion experience,
which Pascal is one of the greatpeople who was converted, you
know, had an evangelisticexperience. You know, before
that, he was a gambler, and heknew that when you gamble,
(16:11):
you're you think to yourself, ifI just win this hand, then I'll
be happy like, then I'll then,then I can pay the car off, then
I content, because this isMontaigne's whole point is that
happiness is contentment. It isit kind of this kind of laid
back contentment. You just wantto be content with your life,
and you realize it doesn't work,because you gamble out of a
(16:31):
certain kind of sense of justtrying to enjoy your life. But
then you kind of start to think,like, if I win, then I'll be
content. And then you do win,and you walk away from the
table, and all of a sudden youfeel the beckoning to go back
and gamble again, like itdoesn't fulfill. So his ultimate
point is, and it seems like akind of dire point, but his
ultimate point is, you can't behappy, that you really can't be
(16:53):
happy. And then this becomesPascal's Wager, which we usually
think of Pascal's Wager as likethis, 5050, I know we always
like, you know, I remember beingin college and people saying
this, like Pascal's wager was,either there is a God or there
isn't a god. If you bet thatthere is no God, and you die and
you find out there is a God,well, you're screwed. Like, you
(17:16):
know, that's awful. But if youbet there is a God, and then you
die and find out there isn't aGod, well, you haven't lost very
much. Well, you only have to belike a 13 year old, you know,
middle schooler, to realize thatdoesn't quite work. Like the
Christian life calls you intosacrificing certain things that
(17:37):
you would like not to sacrificeand to bend your life in a
certain way that that actuallyno that that is that does cost
me something, but that's notwhat Pascal is actually saying.
I think Pascal's wager issomething more like, if you
will, admit that you cannot makeyourself happy, and instead of
trying to pave that over withall sorts of gambling, like
(17:59):
pursuits of happiness. You know,if you if you will stop and
confess your unhappiness andlean into your unhappiness, his
wager is that if you will leanin and search the HAP
unhappiness, that you will finda great presence there, that you
will find a fire that renews andbrings life, you will find not
the God of a philosophers, butyou will find the God of
(18:21):
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob thatmeets you there in ministers to
you, but this is where acommunity comes in. Pascal
doesn't go here, but I reallydeeply believe this is that,
particularly to unhappy people,you cannot say, interrogate your
unhappiness and see what youfind you could fall into, on
your own, a kind of demonicdarkness that could eat you. But
(18:43):
I do think what we'd say inministry is that come and be
part of this community, and as acommunity, we will hold you as
you interrogate yourunhappiness, as you look for a
great presence in it. And hereare stories of how we found a
great presence inside of our ownexperiences of sadness and
unbrokenness. And so I think acommunity is an essential piece
(19:06):
that you really can only findthis kind of depth of the
sacramental finding the infiniteGod and the finite experience of
human suffering. If you have acommunity that will walk with
you that the sadness is tooreal. It's not just a
psychological state. It's a it'sa soul sickness. It's an
existential reality. And youcan't do that by by yourself.
(19:26):
You will be eaten alive by thesadness. But a community, in a
community that confesses that itis by the Spirit of the Living
God, by the spirit of theresurrected Jesus Christ, the
Sanctum communio. It can bearthis, these experiences of death
and sadness, with you, and canencourage you to become a
(19:49):
pilgrim into them and see whatyou find on the path. Because
you don't walk the path alone.
And I think that becomes thekind of shape of a congregation
that's doing. Evangelism thatit's saying to its neighbors,
let's lean into our sorrow.
Let's see what you find there.
You're outraged, you'redepressed, you're angry. Our
wager, our bet, our bet is, ifyou lean into it, if you look
(20:14):
for a great presence there, thatyou'll that you'll find it,
because we've found it.
Joshua Johnson (20:19):
So why does that give us a deeper sense of joy
and even contentment when we'rewalking through difficulties and
sorrows and griefs and sadnesswith others? Then what happiness
was supposed to bring us?
Andrew Root (20:38):
Well, I really think at the deepest core. The
reason it feels, I mean, a deepsense of union, maybe is even a
kind of way that mystics havesaid it like you feel united to
something. I mean, I guess thisis where what I mean by the
sacramental reality is that youthat you find the very being of
God who takes what is dead andbrings life out of it, the very
(21:00):
God who, you know, says, Blessedare those who grieve for they'll
be comforted. I mean, there's acertain sense, as Jesus says,
like that, you that Jesuspromises to be present as the
minister, as as a ministeringGod in places of sorrow and
brokenness and and, you know,moving in those places. And this
is, I guess, what I mean by thesacramental, again, it's like in
(21:22):
the utter ordinary and even thevery opposite of what should be
is where God becomes present.
The God of the universe shouldnot be present where lowly human
beings are sorrowful and cryingout for for companionship. But
nevertheless, this is how thisGod chooses to act that this God
chooses to be present, bringingmercy and comfort to the
(21:43):
brokenhearted. I mean, this isin Mary's Magnificat is, you
know, quite similar those thisis, this is what she sees in
this incredible moment of theinfinite coming into the finite
in her womb, where she says, Thethe high will be taught, will be
brought down and lowly will bewill be brought up like those
who grieve will be comforted andthose who know no grief, will
(22:07):
have to hear the judgment ofGod, that they have to see that
they cannot save themselves, butthat that this God is the one
who comes and ministers andwants to be near the
brokenhearted, seems
Joshua Johnson (22:20):
like a very prophetic statement in our
country at the moment.
Andrew Root (22:25):
Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I do. I think the outrage
is so intense because we're allultimately really sad and
anxious, one of the responses tobeing sad is to be really angry.
I think it's a legitimate humanresponse, is that when you feel
really sad and anxious, becauseyou're really sad, you you're
filled with outrage. And now we,we have this thing called the
(22:45):
internet that just becomes anoutrage producing machine, and
in social media that I think youknow now, we look at all these
people who are threatening ourhappiness because they just
posted some statement we findignorant, and then what we find
we what we end up creating, is asociety where we get the exact
opposite of what we need ashuman beings, which is people to
console us and be with us andand bear our burdens with us as
(23:07):
we're called into bearing otherpeople's burdens. So
Joshua Johnson (23:11):
you do mention a little bit in your book about
people. A lot of young peoplehave left evangelical Protestant
churches. They're deconstructingtheir faith, but they're really
just trying to find other typesof the same thing, but in a
different style. Maybe they'releaning differently politically,
or they're actually crying outfor the marginalized or
(23:34):
something. How does this help adisaffected group of people who
are deconstructing and areleaving something because of
they're sad, they're lonely, andthey see that what has been
happening has perpetrated moresadness and loneliness for
(23:55):
marginalized people. What do wesay to them? How does this help?
Yeah,
Andrew Root (23:59):
I mean, I think one of the big dangers in in that
that that hasn't helped us, andjust it just feeds the the
outrage is to say there's acertain kind of for lack of a
better term, like a cottageindustry of affirmation for
turning from your past and beinglike those people suck. And now
I see things this way, and itreally, in some sense, becomes a
(24:22):
move from one ideology toanother ideology. And so a big
question for us is like, how dowe break the ideological hold
that just moves us from one poleto the other pole? And I do
think that there's something,and this is what I mean by the
theology of the cross and Luthertheology of the cross, that kind
of breaks that ideologicalperspective that that this is
(24:44):
not in this is why, I think, whythe evangelism in this cadence
is so important, because it isreally not about an idea or a
proposition. It's about a deepform of encounter. So the
question becomes like, how doyou encounter? Living God. And I
think one of the traps of peoplebecome disaffiliated and left,
(25:05):
maybe for really good reasons,is that they end up just riding
the wave of the cultural moment,and they essentially just look
for a different kind ofreligious firm, if you will, or
kind of different form ofspirituality, or something that
that they can use in a way to,well, make them happy again. And
when that doesn't fulfill, thenthey either become incredibly
(25:28):
agile people who just just jumpfrom one wave to the next wave,
but that becomes quiteexhausting, as you just have to
do that, or you get washed outin the white water, and you end
up spitting out water, and youfeel more alone than you did
before, you know. So there's acertain sense that they feel
maybe, as they've disaffiliated,that they it became clear to
(25:48):
them, if they did not, if theynot, did not conform or commit
to some certain ideologicalperspective, they would be
ostracized. But then the greattemptation is, you just go to
another group that just has avery different ideological
perspective, but you need toconform and perform that
ideology, or you get you getpushed out again, as opposed to
(26:12):
what it means to actually find acommunity of people who will
walk with you in the midst ofyour deepest sorrow, you know,
like even in the midst of yourmoments of doubt and and loss,
and I guess, at the end of theday. And what I try to do with
even the story in the book istry to say the core human
(26:33):
experiences that really frameour lives tend not to be around
our assimilation to big ideas.
Anyhow, they tend to be aroundthese events of things that
happen to us, like a fatherdying, or a miscarriage, or just
fear that your wife may notrecover from the sadness she has
over a miscarriage like thesebecome, or a diagnosis of of
(26:53):
cancer like these become thevery moments that really shape
our lives more than even like,Do you believe these four things
or something, and how the churchor how those who confess Jesus
Christ show up in those momentsis in what they testify to and
witness to in those moments, howthey care and enter into A
(27:17):
spirit of the pastoral or theministerial becomes incredibly
powerful and and not in anyinstrumental way, like if we
care for people who have who arediagnosed with cancer, then
they'll come to our church. No,some of them, they're, they're
going to die. But what does itmean to help people die in the
very presence of God? What doesit help people to grieve what
(27:37):
will be lost in the midst ofthat, you know, to me, that's
really the depth of theincarnational impulse within
Christianity. Is that it saysthese core human experiences of
getting sick, of having to saygoodbye, you know, like, and
this is why I use this, thisFrench mystic name Jean Garcin,
or, if you're my joke is, ifyou're from Wisconsin, Gene
(28:01):
Gerson is that's because I'mfrom Minnesota. So I always like
to throw a jab, throw a littleshade on Wisconsin. But where
his basic point is that you thatwhat it means to live the
Christian life is, is theinvitation to pilgrimage. And so
that's really what I think we'reinviting people to an evangelism
is to walk the Pilgrims path.
(28:25):
But to walk the Pilgrims path,he says, You have to say a Diem,
and he means that as a kind ofidiomatic phrase. It was, well,
he means it as to God. It's itliterally means like to God. And
so that makes complete sense. Ifyou're a pilgrim, you have to
walk to God. You're not justyou're not just on a marathon
walk. You're walking towardssomething. And even today, if
(28:46):
you, you know, if you walk stCuthberts way, or you walk the
Camino, or something, you'rewalking to God, you're walking
towards something. But he says,what's really interesting in
France at this time, to say IDiem was also the idiom for
goodbye. So like, the end ofthis podcast, we would say to
each other, I Diem, you know, toGod, goodbye. And I think those
(29:06):
are really interesting to puttogether. Is that to walk the
Pilgrims path, you also have tobe saying goodbye. You know, you
have these great sorrows thatyou have to say goodbye to those
you love, to dreams you've had.
And it is giving those to Godthat we find ourselves taken up
and changed and transformed, andfind ourselves ultimately in
(29:26):
Christ, and we can call that.
We're evangelized, you know, butwe're not evangelized through
some great leap or findourselves evangelized through
some deep surrender, which isactually what Kierkegaard means
by his leap of faith is it'svery much like Pascal, which
it's this kind of letting go anddropping into your sadness and
(29:51):
seeing what meets you there, andpeople is the very crucified
Christ will meet us there,taking what's dead in us and
bringing life out of it,
Joshua Johnson (29:59):
talking about.
Madness and desolation, thesedifficult things. It doesn't
sound fun, but there issomething, when you talk about
the living God will meet youthere, that the community will
walk with you in the midst ofit, that that is actually good
news. That's what it is. It'sgood news. I want to know how
people as they've been trained,or thought about evangelism as
(30:21):
propositional truth tied to anideology. How do we shift our
thinking in our minds, likepractically, what does it look
like to sit with somebody andmeet them, you know, where
they're at, and not try to getthem to an ideology? Yeah,
Andrew Root (30:40):
and this is what I mean, whether I've succeeded at
this or not in this book, or anybook, I just, I mean, I don't
know. Maybe it's because I havean aversion, both towards, like
ministry books that tell you howto do it, because I always find
those just too flat, or really,like deep academic books. So
you're like, have this these aregreat ideas, but have these
(31:01):
people ever met anyone or had topreach a sermon or anything like
I'm trying to somehow threadthat needle, so I feel like I
have to the reader. I have toshow you it, more than tell you
it, you know. So that's why thisnarrative is here. That's why
this kind of story is it is atplay. But what I try to show in
(31:21):
that story, and what this thenlooks like, really practically,
is where I really tell thestory, mainly through lay people
that are, you know, not the, notthe paid pastor who's leading
the church, but through, throughlay people. And it really, it
starts with, it does start witha pastor, through his own
experience, who helps his laypeople have a kind of watch word
(31:45):
that says, we follow Jesus insorrow. That's what we do. What
it means to be a Christian isyou follow Jesus into sorrow,
because Jesus is found insorrow. And then all these
experiences happen. You know,like this woman who runs HR has
to fire somebody, and the herher job performance is going
down because she's lost herfather, and it's in the wellness
(32:06):
profession. And she realizes thewellness profession and the
wellness culture will help youhack everything to find your
happiness. The one thing willnot do with you is help you bear
grief. It's not built for that.
And so there's a sense of herseeing that this is a person who
is beckoning for me to be withthem and care for them. I don't
think, I don't think we canreally faithfully evangelize
(32:27):
people. We surely can't if we'rescared of the word. So we should
not be scared of the word, butat the second level, we
shouldn't be thinking, well, howcan we send people in our church
out as minions to evangelize. Imean it usually what we mean is
like, how can we, I don't know,like, what's a, what's a sci fi
example here, like we vampiresthat, you know, like, make more
(32:50):
vampires, or walking deadzombies that make more walking
dead zombies. Now I'm reallyloading the analogy here in the
metaphor, but I don't think weshould think of it that way. I
think we should really try tohelp people in our communities
be sensitive to where JesusChrist moves and acts, and where
Jesus Christ moves and acts. I'mtrying to make a case here is in
places of sorrow, and so wherethe Christian is called is to
(33:13):
care for the person who's insorrow. And they're very
personhood, their very humanity,their very care for the other
who is in sorrow becomes aproclamation of the gospel. It
becomes a kind of sacramentalmoment where we make a claim,
where we confess that God movesand acts. So I think really
(33:35):
quite practically, it's abouthelping people be sensitive and
open to where there are thegreat goodbyes in there that the
person who lives next door orthe person at work. And so in
some sense, this is where I'm,you know, I really think
discipleship and evangelism arereally close together. The
objective is to keep disciplingyour people, giving them a
(33:57):
vision of how God acts andmoves, giving them a watch word
to hold to, and then, as theyembrace people in their lives,
and these events of call themdeeper in the act of evangelism
happens, happens that way. So Ithink it really is very
practical, and yet it can't beformulaic in any way you know,
and
Joshua Johnson (34:19):
your previous books, and what you've done,
you're calling people to wait,to wait on this God who's going
to act, to remember hisfaithfulness. And that's really
difficult in this modern agewhere time has sped up so fast
that that's why, you know we'reonline and we're all outraged,
(34:40):
because we think that everythingis so immediate, and if we don't
get to it right now, it's gonnago away, how do we move that to
the side and actually sit withgrief? I think that's probably
why Americans are really bad atgrief and lament. They're
horrible at it. So how. Do we dothat? How do we make time? Or
(35:01):
just we have time? How do we sitwith it? I
Andrew Root (35:04):
think there's two things at play. One is exactly
what you're saying, that we'rethat we fear, we fear two
things. We fear that to sit withit, it will last forever. And so
it's like, okay, I'm willing togrieve. But, I mean, it's a
little bit like, I don't know ifI felt this way during the
pandemic, but you'd have peoplesay it, like, just tell me when
(35:25):
it's over. If you could justgive me a date, even if it was,
like, two years from now, butyou're just like, july 11, it's
over, then I'm cool, orwhatever. It's the kind of
unknownness of it that drove, Ithink all of us a bit crazy, but
grief is that way too. Like,there's no you have to grieve
for 1010 hours, and then you'refine. Or you have to grieve for
(35:47):
10 days, or you have to grievefor 10 months. You don't know,
you know, like, you just haveto, you just have to live in it.
It's different for everyone'sexperience. And we don't like
that like we would like to justoptimize, tell me how to deal
with it. So that's one reality,but the other reality of it is
is, I do think we we believe ata deep existential level that
grief or sadness will destroyus, and we believe that, because
(36:11):
we do believe that the highestend of the human life is to be
happy. And I don't know I'd likeI've as a parent, I feel this
way, like when my kids areunhappy. I feel frustrated with
them. Like, it's like, get overthis. Like, I this is incredibly
inconvenient for me. Could youjust kind of get over this? But
(36:36):
there is a kind of sense that Ialso want them over because I'm
I'm afraid they'll never comeback from this. Like, what if
they're sad for ever? And we, wethen there. We therefore think
there's no value in it. Like,there's absolutely, when you're
driven just to be happy, there'sno value really, in sadness. And
(36:56):
yet, any artist would tell you,or anyone who works that are
kind of our artistic cadencewould tell you there's
incredible value and sadness.
You know, like some of the mostbeautiful pieces of art make us
sad, but they make us feelsomething. They make us feel
alive, you know, so it, it is. Ithink that's part of the issue
(37:18):
is that we just don't trust thatthere's actually there's,
there's not any presence in thesadness, that it is just the
very opposite of happiness, andall we want to be is happy,
because that's what it means tolive well and in what that
ultimately does. I mean, I'm nota hater of happiness. I like
(37:38):
happiness as much as the nextperson. But if all you live for
is happiness, then all you do islive on the surface. And artists
and philosophers have known along time that if you're willing
to interrogate sadness. I mean,if you do it, if you do it
alone, you can become a bummer.
You know, like you can, youknow, just look at French
(38:00):
existentialists, you know, likeyou can become a real bummer,
but also someone who hasn't beenwilling to lean into their
sadness is also very much asurface person. And what I'm
trying to get at in this book isthat inside the Christian
tradition there's a deep,there's a deep, deep vein here
that says that, yeah, well, thatthat that God becomes present
(38:22):
comforting. Those who so are aresorrowful. So Blessed are those
who grieve. Blessed are thosewho are sad,
Joshua Johnson (38:29):
for their eyes will be open to see the presence
of the living God who cares forthe brokenhearted. We get to
follow them, this man ofsorrows. Yeah, that's who we get
to follow. How do we do this inwhat does it look like in either
like our wider community? I'mthinking about our nation. I'm
thinking about America. I'mthinking about the pursuit of
(38:52):
happiness. This is all we'vebeen doing, is pursuing
happiness. It is an act ofprotest to slow down as a
community and feel sadness andgrief and sorrow and say, We're
gonna walk with you through thisthing. What does it look like to
do it as a as a whole, and notjust individually?
Andrew Root (39:15):
Yeah, I mean, it is, it is a question like, I
think we're at a peculiar placeright now, because, you know,
like, even what we were justtalking about, and I do, and I
would want to say, this is thethe main thing that I'm
emphasizing is these events,these realities, like, people
may be really upset about what'shappening in the country from
whatever kind of side they'reon, but you can't stop the fact
(39:38):
that someone in your communitiescan be diagnosed with cancer,
and all of a sudden that's goingto be the issue, issue at hand,
at least for them, or whatthey're going to need is someone
to walk with them in the midstof this. But at another level, I
mean, we are looking at a momentof great transition here, you
know, like and this takes us alittle outside the book, but in
(39:59):
some ways. Not because, youknow, like one of the things I
try to argue in this book isthat when you even look at some
of these articulations of in the1990s that the 1990s are really
positive and that this all fallsapart for us. But one of the
reasons the 1990s were sopositive, and I, you know, look
(40:21):
at the philosopher CharlesTaylor, as well as the
philosopher Stephen toolman.
Have these really positive kindof genealogies, like the 90s are
going to be finally living intosome of the ideals that came out
of the 60s, or kind of get getindividualism under control in
some way or something, and thatthose don't come to fruition,
the last three decades of the21st century become quite sad
ones. But one of the reasonsthey're so positive is because
(40:42):
it feels like, Well, I mean,just really concretely the
Berlin Wall stone, and, youknow, the Cold War is over, and
it looks like maybe economicgrowth may be kind of returning,
globally in a certain way. And Ithink what we're seeing right
now is that, again, this isbeyond the book, but we are
(41:04):
really seeing the ending of the20th century completely, like,
you know, like even the wayAmerica is responding to Europe,
like, it's, it's the kind oflogics of the 20th century are
really over. And I think at acertain level, we we, I'll just
speak for myself, like, grievesome of that, like grieve some
(41:24):
of the way the world was that itfeels like it will not be able
to be put back together. Andtherefore, we are on a precipice
of great change coming, like weare the kind of larger order of
the country, as well as theorder of the of the globe, in
many ways, is, is in the midstof a great kind of transition,
(41:45):
like at that level we are kindof 100 years ago, 150 or like,
you know, like end of the 19thcentury, you know, just before
and then after world war onekind of reshaping the way the
world works And the way evenpeople interact with each other.
And I feel, you know, we feel alot of great anxiety around
that. So there is a kind ofquestion of discerning the
(42:07):
difference between anxiety andsadness, you know, and too much
anxiety can make you quite sad,but they're not always the same
thing. And so I think in themidst practically, of anxiety,
we part of our pastoralleadership is to remind people
that anxiety isn't is a goodresponse to things being in
(42:31):
flux. It's not a bad feeling,and to remind them that God is
is in control of this. And thatdoes not mean that it could not
become bleak or difficult, oreconomies couldn't crumble, or,
you know, all sorts of thingsone couldn't even imagine could
could happen in the way our ourlives are ordered, and we
(42:51):
should, but that there is agreater hope that we have, and
then to To avoid the temptationof that anxiety about what will
order the world to take us awayfrom the concreteness of the
ones who suffer in our midst.
And I think that is a real Imean, particularly thinking the
(43:13):
main line that's one of the bigissues is that everyone is
fighting for some ideologicalperspective and fear that they
almost miss, at a kind of globallevel, at a larger macro level,
that they miss the person intheir community. I mean, the 85
(43:34):
year old person their communityis utterly alone and has stopped
coming to church because theyhurt their they slipped on the
ice and broke their hip, and noware literally deteriorating and
dying, and had been part of thischurch for 45 5060, years, and
now are being forgotten whilewe're all anxious about what the
next executive order is going tobe. And again, that's not to
(43:56):
minimize that stuff, but it isto say there's a deep temptation
that we forget the concretepeople before us, and it's not
even people in our community,but the person across the street
who is, who's, you know, alonely and not part of our
church, but is having to say agreat goodbye to something, some
something or someone, and notbeing with them. So I think try
(44:16):
to help our communities parseout the difference between being
anxious and not minimizing thatanxiety, but also what it means
to be in moments of loss andsorrow. And sometimes those are
the same thing, and sometimesthose are different.
Joshua Johnson (44:29):
It seems like if we all were able to care for
those in our midst that were inpain and struggling and
sorrowful, that would make ahuge difference than just
because we we would be humanagain. It feels like, if we're
we're focused on the on themacro constantly. It feels like
(44:50):
we're just trying to make surethat this machine is going to do
what I want the machine to do.
But we, we need to, like, figureout, what does it look like to
be human? Yeah, in this day andage, absolutely. What do you
think like, if you would say tosomebody like, these are the
things that it means to behuman. What does it mean to be
(45:10):
human as opposed machine? Yeah,and
Andrew Root (45:16):
I think one of the things that it ultimately means
to be human is to be the kind ofcreature who needs others. And I
do think we live in a kind ofmoment where we think we don't
really need them, you know,we've take that kind of Satra
view that other people are hell,you know. And particularly other
people with other ideologies areare hell. But to be human is to,
(45:41):
well, it's two things, I thinkit is to be the kind of creature
who needs others, and you're thekind of creature who needs
others, because to be human isto have to say goodbye. You have
to say goodbye. You have to saygoodbye to your health. You have
to say goodbye to your kidsbeing, you know, 11 and 12, and
now they're 13 and 14. You haveto say goodbye to your kids as
(46:02):
they go off and launch theirlives. You have to say goodbye
to parents who are passing away.
You have to say goodbye to aspouse who's who is suffering
from dementia like you have tothere the human life is saying
goodbye all the time. And thatopens up this deep question of,
can you do that by yourself? No,can you do that just in a a
(46:23):
community that you're only inthat community because you
correlate to its ideologies? No,you need others. And can you do
that without some kind of divinereferent that can give order to
this and gives practices? Idon't think so. You know, like,
I think a pushback to that couldbe like, well, the only reason I
(46:45):
have a god is because you can'tcope with your existential
fallibility. But at anotherlevel, again, there's nothing
more beautiful than thesemoments of having to say
goodbye. This is why mostpastors say they feel the most
alive doing funerals becausethey are on. They're at this
place where they get to speakinto deep sorrow and hold people
(47:05):
and without minimizing thatsorrow also speak of deep forms
of hope and possibility thatdoesn't come around the sorrow
isn't a detour around it. Itgoes straight through it, which
is why, again, most pastors Italk to will say they feel the
most alive or like theirvocation is the most significant
when they're doing a funeral,because they're helping group of
(47:29):
people, they're helping acommunity say goodbye, and they
are reminding them that thatsaying goodbye is a Diem. It is
to God, and it is God's businessto be part of that. And I just
think that's how we be human,that we say goodbye and we
recognize that God has somethingto do with that saying goodbye.
Joshua Johnson (47:50):
That's beautiful. Andy, if you have a
hope for this book and for thepeople who read evangelism and
the age of despair, what? What'syour hope?
Andrew Root (47:59):
Yeah, my hope is a complete cultural, you know, as
a complete contradictioneverything I said, I hope it's
an Amazon bestseller and that Ithat I have a private jet after
this. No, my real hope is thatit, well, I guess my hope is
that it, that it can help formcommunities that look a little
(48:20):
bit like the story I told in it,which I think they're out there,
but I do, you know, like again,which is kind of, well, it's the
world I live in, but the churchthat I present is not a church
that anyone would look at and belike, Oh my gosh, this is the
most important church inSouthern California. Let's you
know, they wouldn't say in theirtown, let alone, you know, the
(48:42):
region or the state orsomething, it is just a small
group of people who are plottingalong and doing their best to
respond to where Jesus iscalling them. And that's the
great hope. Is that if we cancare for one another, that that
caring for one another isn'tjust a benign, nice thing to do,
(49:05):
it is it's sacramental. Thefinite and the infinite partake
in this common but profound actof bearing each other's burdens.
Joshua Johnson (49:16):
Anything you've been reading or watching lately,
you could recommend
Andrew Root (49:20):
we're struggling actually right now, because
we're in the middle ofseverance, and so we're, we're
just anticip, we'reanticipating. So I, you know
this is, this is just throwingshade on my my wife car. But I
was like, Hey, we gotta wait. Ijust want to store these, these
episodes up. And then she'slike, No, we so we re watched
the first season, and then westarted, and then we just were
(49:42):
hammering them, you know, likeevery night, two episodes, and
then all of a sudden, thedreaded, you know, like when
it's gonna queue up the nextepisode, it gives you a
different show. And, you know,you're caught up. And now you
have to wait till Thursday nightor Friday, or whatever that it
drops. So, yeah, we're in themiddle of that. So. Yeah,
that's, I would definitelyrecommend that. And it's making
(50:03):
problems for us as we wait,because every other show we
watch just feels, as the kidswould say, totally mid like it
just doesn't it's just not doingit. So yeah, I would definitely,
definitely recommend that.
Great.
Joshua Johnson (50:17):
Well, I love severance. I asked go check that
out. And just, yeah, you couldgo down the rabbit hole with
severance, and you could just gothrough different different
theories for a long time. Yeah,it's a lot of fun. Well, well
done. Show. Really impressive,really amazing. How can people
go out get to evangelism in theage of despair? Is there
(50:38):
anywhere you'd like to pointpeople to get the book. And
where else would you like topoint people to? Yeah, I think
Andrew Root (50:46):
I would just, yeah, wherever you feel comfortable
getting it. I think you'll beable to find it there and go
there if you know, if you lookfor convenience, obviously, it's
on Amazon. If you can supportyour local book store do that it
should be there, or, yeah,independent one online would be,
would be great. So that's,that's great. And, yeah, I mean,
(51:07):
if people want to find me thatthere's, I have a website that
chooses andrew.org and you can,you can find me there.
Joshua Johnson (51:14):
Andy, thank you for this conversation. Thank you
for going deep into our sorrowsand our sadness and our pain,
but knowing that there is aliving God that could actually
meet us and encounter us in thatand that we could walk with
community, that evangelism,discipleship can be paired
together, and we could continueto go on the pilgrimage to God
(51:36):
in our life. And so it wasbeautiful. I love our
conversation. Thank you so much.
Thanks.
Unknown (51:41):
Those are a pleasure.
You.
Their very personhood, their very humanity,
(00:03):
their very care for the otherwho is in sorrow, becomes a
proclamation of the gospel. Itbecomes a kind of sacramental
moment where we make a claim,where we confess that God moves
and act.
Unknown (00:22):
Oh, hello
Joshua Johnson (00:31):
and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in
which we have conversationsabout the culture we create and
the impact we can make. We longto see the body of Christ look
like Jesus. I'm your host.
Joshua Johnson, in our currentmoment of cultural fragmentation
and existential anxiety, thetraditional frameworks of
engagement feel increasinglyinadequate. Andrew roots, latest
work, evangelism in an age ofdespair, isn't just a
(00:52):
theological treatise or a how toevangelism book, but a profound
meditation on human connectionin an age of profound
disconnection. What happens whenwe shift our understanding of
evangelism from a transactionalmodel of belief to a relational
practice of genuine withness?
Well Andy suggests somethingmore radical than conversion, a
(01:13):
form of spiritual presence thathonors the complexity of human
suffering. We're living throughan era where loneliness has
become a systemic conditionwhere happiness is marketed as a
consumable product and wheregenuine human vulnerability is
increasingly rare. Roots.
Approach doesn't offer easysolutions, but instead proposes
a more nuanced engagement withour collective pain. This
(01:34):
conversation is less aboutreligious doctrine and more
about the fundamental human needfor meaningful connection, a
need that transcends ideologicalboundaries and touches something
more elemental about how weunderstand ourselves and each
other. So join us as we seek theconsolation of Christ in the
desolation of our lives. Here'smy conversation with Andrew
(01:55):
root. Well Andy, welcome back toshifting culture. So excited to
have you on. Thanks for joiningme again. Yeah, it's great to be
here. Thanks. Yeah, it wasweird. You know, in 2024 I
didn't have you on the podcast,and I didn't know what to do
with myself. I looked back, Iwas like, Andrew root was not on
the podcast. Wow.
Andrew Root (02:18):
Yeah, so was 23 I was on and yeah, you were on
twice
Joshua Johnson (02:23):
in 23 okay, in 2022 so, yeah,
Andrew Root (02:27):
yeah. So, yeah, I don't know I should get a punch
card for this. I guess, yeah,
Joshua Johnson (02:31):
you need a punch card. You, you have now taken
the lead again with the personwho's on the most. So that's a
few people that caught up atthree, and now you're taking the
lead. Okay,
Andrew Root (02:44):
so I'm the norm.
McDonald to your Conan O'Brien,that's right, like the
reoccurring people, come on.
That's right. If you
Joshua Johnson (02:55):
could tell the moth joke in like eight minutes,
I think I was single, too. Yeah,
Unknown (03:02):
give it a little theological twist. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (03:04):
that's right, that's good. You have a new
book, evangelism in the age ofdespair, and you wrote right at
the beginning is that it's kindof hard, that it's not a model
of evangelism for the churchthat we could take and we could
use and we can see some, youknow, 10 to 15% growth year over
year, and we'll be all set. Butit is a book, really about
(03:28):
consolation, and meeting peopleon the consolation. Why then are
you writing that an evangelismbook about consolation?
Andrew Root (03:39):
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a, it's a good question.
So, yeah, I don't know. I mean,I don't know how you feel, but I
find a lot really helpful inevangelism books. I mean, first
of all, just evangelism as aconcept, feels like it's, it's
contested, or, I don't know,like in the world I'm in, you
either get people who boldlysay, like, the church needs to
(04:03):
get back to evangelism. And thenthe next line is, because
there's no people here, orbecause, you know, some
political thing, or some socialsome social reality, that we
need evangelism. Or else, what Ifind a lot is in kind of more
mainline communities, you getpeople who almost say under
(04:24):
their breath whisper to you, youknow, maybe we just need to do
Evangel like they almost feelashamed to say that. And so
partly it was just trying tothink about, what do we actually
why would? Why are? Why is therethis odd kind of tension where
we feel like we weren't weshouldn't be about evangelism
(04:44):
anymore, and yet we all want tobe about evangelism, like we're
of two minds, I think on that.
So is partly trying to kind ofexplore that. But then, you
know, back to these evangelismbooks, like, there's a there's a
lot of really good ones, butthey tend to come. List
different models of things youcan do and and I think there's a
lot we can learn out of those,but I just didn't feel like
(05:05):
maybe I was qualified to dothat, or wanted to do that. So
really, I'm trying to kind ofthink as as my whole project
really has been about broadly,is kind of thinking of the
theology at the cross and tryingto think of every kind of
practical form ministry throughthe theology of the cross. So
the experiment really is likehow to think the theology that
cross in evangelism like thoseseem in some sense, to be kind
(05:28):
of water and oil that they don'treally mix in some ways. But I'm
trying to make a case that theyactually can if we if we see
them a certain way, I think
Joshua Johnson (05:40):
if they don't mix, I think we're probably
doing it wrong. Yeah, so, Imean, we need to get back to
that. So let's zoom out a littlebit to to talk a little bit
about the state of the worldthat we're in right now, and
why, and what are the some ofthe predominant evangelistic
methods that were that you haveseen, that maybe you're not
(06:04):
speaking to the world that we'reliving in.
Andrew Root (06:09):
Yeah. I mean, I just think that we tend to, when
we think of evangelism, we tendto kind of think, oh, some kind
of church marketing form in someways, like, you know, maybe it's
to market the church, or it'strying to make a persuasive case
for people to believe something.
So it becomes kind ofpropositional. Like, the whole
(06:30):
point of evangelism is that youknow these five things, and
really they're four things, youknow, the the four, the four
things you need to know the fourspiritual laws that we go
through those then at the end,you're cool with that, and then
you've been evangelized. Youknow, like, that's one kind of
perspective that I think playsin. But I think another one is a
(06:52):
kind of sense, like we make acase for why the church or the
Christian faith is goods, is agood to your life, and why it
adds value, really, and thatthat should be the way to go.
And, you know, then, then wejust that confronts in one way
or another. It puts a demand onus to really, I mean,
(07:13):
evangelism, in kind of a form ofmath is is pretty
interconnected, like you'resupposed to count something. Now
maybe we don't count how manypeople came forward at an altar
call, though that's been kind ofone way people have tended to
think of evangelism. But we tendto kind of think this is why,
like I said, people say it undertheir breath, like maybe we need
(07:34):
evangelism because they lookaround and think we need more
people in these pews, and maybethat's the way you should do it.
But I think what that ultimatelygets to is some kind of
instrumental kind of view ofevangelism. And what I'm trying
to get at in this book, I think,is at its core, there's a way to
think about evangelism in a morekind of sacramental vein, that
(07:56):
it is really an invitation forpeople to be taken up into the
life of Jesus Christ. Thatdoesn't demand a certain form of
counting, though it does demanda certain assertion about what
it means to encounter thisliving Jesus Christ and to
invite people into that kind ofof life. So at that level it is,
(08:17):
is evangelism. But I also amtrying to kind of pivot us away
from thinking that we need tocount it becomes a form of
marketing, or that it justbecomes a kind of practice that
has to die inside of pluralisticsociety, like, if you want to be
a truly open person in in youcan't really be about
evangelism, because then you aremaking a case that the way
(08:39):
people live their lives isn'tgood enough, or if they grew up
in one kind of religioustradition, that's not a value.
And I don't know I find that tobe not a really helpful way of
thinking about it.
Joshua Johnson (08:53):
So if that's not helpful, can you just define
what you think evangelism is?
Then what is evangelism? Yeah,
Andrew Root (09:01):
you know, for me, it is this kind of sacramental
reality, in the sense thatevangelism is, you know,
ultimately goes back toBonhoeffer, everything for me
does, but it is really hearingthe call of Jesus Christ, to
follow, and to really hear that,call it, and to follow that. And
there is a contextual element tothat, too. I mean, I mean, I
(09:21):
think that's one of the thingsthat keeps people kind of
interested in evangelism. Orsometimes people even there's a
kind of blurry line betweenevangelism and mission. You
know, they almost seem likeyou're saying the same thing,
that they kind of fit togetherin a certain way, that that way,
and I and so there is a way thatit is a call into something. It
is a call to follow this livingJesus Christ. But the way I'm
(09:44):
trying to think about it, putsdiscipleship and evangelism
really close together, like theyare. They are really in some
sense, one in the same is, isthe evangelistic move is to hear
the call and the discipleship isalways what it means to
continue. You to follow withinthat, yeah, but there is this
contextual element. That's whyit's been kind of linked with
(10:06):
with mission. And the kind ofargument I'm trying to make in
the book is that we have, we dohave to think contextually, but
that thinking contextuallyshouldn't keep us from really
thinking theologically, in thesense of the sacramental, like,
how does the divine and thehuman engage each other here?
Because, again, I think we dofocus so much on the human
(10:27):
agent. Will you believe this?
What kind of message will bepersuasive? Is it going to be
apologetic? Is it emotional?
What kind of thing will willconvert you? And I do think
there's a contextual elementhere, but I think that
contextual element opens up to areality that it can't be
instrumentalized that way.
Joshua Johnson (10:46):
It reminds me of when Jesus said, you know, come
to me all of you who are wearyand heavy laden, because my yoke
is easy, easy. My burden islight, right? So it is a
everybody is weary, depressed,anxious, they're they're sad.
There's something happening inthis world where we need an
encounter with this livingChrist, and then his yoke is
(11:09):
easy. This is where yoke to himis we actually then follow him
into discipleship. Yeah, I thinkthat's a beautiful picture of
what it looks like, what Jesusis inviting people into, and the
type of people he's inviting.
And I
Andrew Root (11:24):
mean, the first half of the book tries to really
make the argument that we'reliving in particularly kind of
sad times, as you were just kindof referencing there the in one
of the reasons we're just sodeeply sad is because we're so
hell bent, committed to beinghappy. And here we are in the
third decade of the 21stcentury. And I think it's pretty
fair to say these have beenreally, you know, quite sad
(11:46):
times, whether we look at youngpeople and how anxious they are,
or how, you know, depressionlevels are off the charts, or
just overall, people just feelfundamentally lonely. And part
of that is we, we keep lookingto be really happy and the
project of just wanting to behappy has kind of failed us. So
whatever context we do, I thinkevangelism in at this time or or
(12:08):
even if you know we feeluncomfortable with that word,
how we invite people torecognize and follow Jesus
Christ, we will be speaking, Ithink, to a deeply, kind of
existentially sad people. I
Joshua Johnson (12:21):
just interviewed Zach near crebs, who was the
pastor gave the sermon atAsbury, Asbury, oh yeah, and
just happened. He said themajority of what happened during
that time were people actuallyconnecting and getting each
other's phone number and beinghappy to be with one another. It
felt like a time where theloneliness of our age was
(12:46):
actually being swept away, andwe were starting to connect to
each other as well, he said, andI think that is what the Spirit
is doing on the earth. This ishow God is wanting to encounter
us, especially because we'relonely. We have a loneliness
epidemic. We want to beconnected to each other, and so
I think you're right. Soevangelism, discipleship, are
(13:09):
connected so much thatevangelism should bring us into
a connection with a with apeople that is following the way
of Jesus. How does the move intofrom actually meeting people in
their sadness and theirloneliness and then connecting
them into community as a parthas been lost in evangelism,
(13:30):
yeah, and people in community,
Andrew Root (13:33):
yeah, in the you know, this is a well, all of my
books, in some ways, are weirdbooks, as as You know, Josh,
like, I love them there, youknow, I try to tell the story of
a church that's, you know,inspired from a bunch of
different churches I know andpastors I know. But also, this
is weaved together as afictional story, but then I'm
(13:53):
also telling you a historicalstory, and then, you know, try
to take you beyond your so thisis, this is kind of a French
book in some ways, like, youknow, like the church is not in
France. My gosh, no, it's like aSouthern California Church. The
kind of protagonists of the bigideas are French. So part of my
point is, like the, if you will,the creator of the drive to be
(14:17):
happy goes back to this lateRenaissance thinker named
Michelle de Montaigne, who hadthis deep sense that what you do
is it's to be the way to live isto live a happy life, and that
means returning to the chateau,getting away from the court, and
just enjoying your life,enjoying writing and reading and
petting your cat and gardening.
And there's a kind of sense thatthis is what it means to be to
(14:41):
live a good life, is to live ahappy life that is this kind of
independent, kind of on your ownchateau. And what's really
fascinating about that is one ofthe great lovers of Michelle de
Montaigne was Thomas Jefferson.
Thomas Jefferson was trying hisvision of America was a land of.
People living on chateaus,living on little farms, living
(15:04):
their happy life, you know, justhappily on their own. That's why
he's always against the kind ofFederalists like, you know,
we're not going to centralize agovernment, because then you you
lose the freedom to just behappy, you know, to live your
kind of happy life. Well, Imean, this is a quite a long
story, but I think to get toyour point about the community
in the 18th century, the greatthinker, Blaise Pascal, to be
(15:26):
kind of crass, knew that monteinwas full of crap like this
couldn't work. It couldn't workto be happy. And I think we're
now seeing in the Americanproject that maybe it never has
worked, but that people reallyfeel quite unhappy, and the more
unhappy they are, the morethey're hell bent that they just
want to be happy, like I said.
But Pascal's basic point is thathe he thought you could know it
was impossible. It's animpossible drive to ever be
(15:48):
happy. Maybe a couple peoplecan, you know, do it. But he
thinks that you you misssomething that's fundamental to
the human experience. And Pascalbelieve this because he was a
gambler, like before, he had hisgreat conversion experience,
which Pascal is one of the greatpeople who was converted, you
know, had an evangelisticexperience. You know, before
that, he was a gambler, and heknew that when you gamble,
(16:11):
you're you think to yourself, ifI just win this hand, then I'll
be happy like, then I'll then,then I can pay the car off, then
I content, because this isMontaigne's whole point is that
happiness is contentment. It isit kind of this kind of laid
back contentment. You just wantto be content with your life,
and you realize it doesn't work,because you gamble out of a
(16:31):
certain kind of sense of justtrying to enjoy your life. But
then you kind of start to think,like, if I win, then I'll be
content. And then you do win,and you walk away from the
table, and all of a sudden youfeel the beckoning to go back
and gamble again, like itdoesn't fulfill. So his ultimate
point is, and it seems like akind of dire point, but his
ultimate point is, you can't behappy, that you really can't be
(16:53):
happy. And then this becomesPascal's Wager, which we usually
think of Pascal's Wager as likethis, 5050, I know we always
like, you know, I remember beingin college and people saying
this, like Pascal's wager was,either there is a God or there
isn't a god. If you bet thatthere is no God, and you die and
you find out there is a God,well, you're screwed. Like, you
(17:16):
know, that's awful. But if youbet there is a God, and then you
die and find out there isn't aGod, well, you haven't lost very
much. Well, you only have to belike a 13 year old, you know,
middle schooler, to realize thatdoesn't quite work. Like the
Christian life calls you intosacrificing certain things that
(17:37):
you would like not to sacrificeand to bend your life in a
certain way that that actuallyno that that is that does cost
me something, but that's notwhat Pascal is actually saying.
I think Pascal's wager issomething more like, if you
will, admit that you cannot makeyourself happy, and instead of
trying to pave that over withall sorts of gambling, like
(17:59):
pursuits of happiness. You know,if you if you will stop and
confess your unhappiness andlean into your unhappiness, his
wager is that if you will leanin and search the HAP
unhappiness, that you will finda great presence there, that you
will find a fire that renews andbrings life, you will find not
the God of a philosophers, butyou will find the God of
(18:21):
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob thatmeets you there in ministers to
you, but this is where acommunity comes in. Pascal
doesn't go here, but I reallydeeply believe this is that,
particularly to unhappy people,you cannot say, interrogate your
unhappiness and see what youfind you could fall into, on
your own, a kind of demonicdarkness that could eat you. But
(18:43):
I do think what we'd say inministry is that come and be
part of this community, and as acommunity, we will hold you as
you interrogate yourunhappiness, as you look for a
great presence in it. And hereare stories of how we found a
great presence inside of our ownexperiences of sadness and
unbrokenness. And so I think acommunity is an essential piece
(19:06):
that you really can only findthis kind of depth of the
sacramental finding the infiniteGod and the finite experience of
human suffering. If you have acommunity that will walk with
you that the sadness is tooreal. It's not just a
psychological state. It's a it'sa soul sickness. It's an
existential reality. And youcan't do that by by yourself.
(19:26):
You will be eaten alive by thesadness. But a community, in a
community that confesses that itis by the Spirit of the Living
God, by the spirit of theresurrected Jesus Christ, the
Sanctum communio. It can bearthis, these experiences of death
and sadness, with you, and canencourage you to become a
(19:49):
pilgrim into them and see whatyou find on the path. Because
you don't walk the path alone.
And I think that becomes thekind of shape of a congregation
that's doing. Evangelism thatit's saying to its neighbors,
let's lean into our sorrow.
Let's see what you find there.
You're outraged, you'redepressed, you're angry. Our
wager, our bet, our bet is, ifyou lean into it, if you look
(20:14):
for a great presence there, thatyou'll that you'll find it,
because we've found it.
Joshua Johnson (20:19):
So why does that give us a deeper sense of joy
and even contentment when we'rewalking through difficulties and
sorrows and griefs and sadnesswith others? Then what happiness
was supposed to bring us?
Andrew Root (20:38):
Well, I really think at the deepest core. The
reason it feels, I mean, a deepsense of union, maybe is even a
kind of way that mystics havesaid it like you feel united to
something. I mean, I guess thisis where what I mean by the
sacramental reality is that youthat you find the very being of
God who takes what is dead andbrings life out of it, the very
(21:00):
God who, you know, says, Blessedare those who grieve for they'll
be comforted. I mean, there's acertain sense, as Jesus says,
like that, you that Jesuspromises to be present as the
minister, as as a ministeringGod in places of sorrow and
brokenness and and, you know,moving in those places. And this
is, I guess, what I mean by thesacramental, again, it's like in
(21:22):
the utter ordinary and even thevery opposite of what should be
is where God becomes present.
The God of the universe shouldnot be present where lowly human
beings are sorrowful and cryingout for for companionship. But
nevertheless, this is how thisGod chooses to act that this God
chooses to be present, bringingmercy and comfort to the
(21:43):
brokenhearted. I mean, this isin Mary's Magnificat is, you
know, quite similar those thisis, this is what she sees in
this incredible moment of theinfinite coming into the finite
in her womb, where she says, Thethe high will be taught, will be
brought down and lowly will bewill be brought up like those
who grieve will be comforted andthose who know no grief, will
(22:07):
have to hear the judgment ofGod, that they have to see that
they cannot save themselves, butthat that this God is the one
who comes and ministers andwants to be near the
brokenhearted, seems
Joshua Johnson (22:20):
like a very prophetic statement in our
country at the moment.
Andrew Root (22:25):
Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I do. I think the outrage
is so intense because we're allultimately really sad and
anxious, one of the responses tobeing sad is to be really angry.
I think it's a legitimate humanresponse, is that when you feel
really sad and anxious, becauseyou're really sad, you you're
filled with outrage. And now we,we have this thing called the
(22:45):
internet that just becomes anoutrage producing machine, and
in social media that I think youknow now, we look at all these
people who are threatening ourhappiness because they just
posted some statement we findignorant, and then what we find
we what we end up creating, is asociety where we get the exact
opposite of what we need ashuman beings, which is people to
console us and be with us andand bear our burdens with us as
(23:07):
we're called into bearing otherpeople's burdens. So
Joshua Johnson (23:11):
you do mention a little bit in your book about
people. A lot of young peoplehave left evangelical Protestant
churches. They're deconstructingtheir faith, but they're really
just trying to find other typesof the same thing, but in a
different style. Maybe they'releaning differently politically,
or they're actually crying outfor the marginalized or
(23:34):
something. How does this help adisaffected group of people who
are deconstructing and areleaving something because of
they're sad, they're lonely, andthey see that what has been
happening has perpetrated moresadness and loneliness for
(23:55):
marginalized people. What do wesay to them? How does this help?
Yeah,
Andrew Root (23:59):
I mean, I think one of the big dangers in in that
that that hasn't helped us, andjust it just feeds the the
outrage is to say there's acertain kind of for lack of a
better term, like a cottageindustry of affirmation for
turning from your past and beinglike those people suck. And now
I see things this way, and itreally, in some sense, becomes a
(24:22):
move from one ideology toanother ideology. And so a big
question for us is like, how dowe break the ideological hold
that just moves us from one poleto the other pole? And I do
think that there's something,and this is what I mean by the
theology of the cross and Luthertheology of the cross, that kind
of breaks that ideologicalperspective that that this is
(24:44):
not in this is why, I think, whythe evangelism in this cadence
is so important, because it isreally not about an idea or a
proposition. It's about a deepform of encounter. So the
question becomes like, how doyou encounter? Living God. And I
think one of the traps of peoplebecome disaffiliated and left,
(25:05):
maybe for really good reasons,is that they end up just riding
the wave of the cultural moment,and they essentially just look
for a different kind ofreligious firm, if you will, or
kind of different form ofspirituality, or something that
that they can use in a way to,well, make them happy again. And
when that doesn't fulfill, thenthey either become incredibly
(25:28):
agile people who just just jumpfrom one wave to the next wave,
but that becomes quiteexhausting, as you just have to
do that, or you get washed outin the white water, and you end
up spitting out water, and youfeel more alone than you did
before, you know. So there's acertain sense that they feel
maybe, as they've disaffiliated,that they it became clear to
(25:48):
them, if they did not, if theynot, did not conform or commit
to some certain ideologicalperspective, they would be
ostracized. But then the greattemptation is, you just go to
another group that just has avery different ideological
perspective, but you need toconform and perform that
ideology, or you get you getpushed out again, as opposed to
(26:12):
what it means to actually find acommunity of people who will
walk with you in the midst ofyour deepest sorrow, you know,
like even in the midst of yourmoments of doubt and and loss,
and I guess, at the end of theday. And what I try to do with
even the story in the book istry to say the core human
(26:33):
experiences that really frameour lives tend not to be around
our assimilation to big ideas.
Anyhow, they tend to be aroundthese events of things that
happen to us, like a fatherdying, or a miscarriage, or just
fear that your wife may notrecover from the sadness she has
over a miscarriage like thesebecome, or a diagnosis of of
(26:53):
cancer like these become thevery moments that really shape
our lives more than even like,Do you believe these four things
or something, and how the churchor how those who confess Jesus
Christ show up in those momentsis in what they testify to and
witness to in those moments, howthey care and enter into A
(27:17):
spirit of the pastoral or theministerial becomes incredibly
powerful and and not in anyinstrumental way, like if we
care for people who have who arediagnosed with cancer, then
they'll come to our church. No,some of them, they're, they're
going to die. But what does itmean to help people die in the
very presence of God? What doesit help people to grieve what
(27:37):
will be lost in the midst ofthat, you know, to me, that's
really the depth of theincarnational impulse within
Christianity. Is that it saysthese core human experiences of
getting sick, of having to saygoodbye, you know, like, and
this is why I use this, thisFrench mystic name Jean Garcin,
or, if you're my joke is, ifyou're from Wisconsin, Gene
(28:01):
Gerson is that's because I'mfrom Minnesota. So I always like
to throw a jab, throw a littleshade on Wisconsin. But where
his basic point is that you thatwhat it means to live the
Christian life is, is theinvitation to pilgrimage. And so
that's really what I think we'reinviting people to an evangelism
is to walk the Pilgrims path.
(28:25):
But to walk the Pilgrims path,he says, You have to say a Diem,
and he means that as a kind ofidiomatic phrase. It was, well,
he means it as to God. It's itliterally means like to God. And
so that makes complete sense. Ifyou're a pilgrim, you have to
walk to God. You're not justyou're not just on a marathon
walk. You're walking towardssomething. And even today, if
(28:46):
you, you know, if you walk stCuthberts way, or you walk the
Camino, or something, you'rewalking to God, you're walking
towards something. But he says,what's really interesting in
France at this time, to say IDiem was also the idiom for
goodbye. So like, the end ofthis podcast, we would say to
each other, I Diem, you know, toGod, goodbye. And I think those
(29:06):
are really interesting to puttogether. Is that to walk the
Pilgrims path, you also have tobe saying goodbye. You know, you
have these great sorrows thatyou have to say goodbye to those
you love, to dreams you've had.
And it is giving those to Godthat we find ourselves taken up
and changed and transformed, andfind ourselves ultimately in
(29:26):
Christ, and we can call that.
We're evangelized, you know, butwe're not evangelized through
some great leap or findourselves evangelized through
some deep surrender, which isactually what Kierkegaard means
by his leap of faith is it'svery much like Pascal, which
it's this kind of letting go anddropping into your sadness and
(29:51):
seeing what meets you there, andpeople is the very crucified
Christ will meet us there,taking what's dead in us and
bringing life out of it,
Joshua Johnson (29:59):
talking about.
Madness and desolation, thesedifficult things. It doesn't
sound fun, but there issomething, when you talk about
the living God will meet youthere, that the community will
walk with you in the midst ofit, that that is actually good
news. That's what it is. It'sgood news. I want to know how
people as they've been trained,or thought about evangelism as
(30:21):
propositional truth tied to anideology. How do we shift our
thinking in our minds, likepractically, what does it look
like to sit with somebody andmeet them, you know, where
they're at, and not try to getthem to an ideology? Yeah,
Andrew Root (30:40):
and this is what I mean, whether I've succeeded at
this or not in this book, or anybook, I just, I mean, I don't
know. Maybe it's because I havean aversion, both towards, like
ministry books that tell you howto do it, because I always find
those just too flat, or really,like deep academic books. So
you're like, have this these aregreat ideas, but have these
(31:01):
people ever met anyone or had topreach a sermon or anything like
I'm trying to somehow threadthat needle, so I feel like I
have to the reader. I have toshow you it, more than tell you
it, you know. So that's why thisnarrative is here. That's why
this kind of story is it is atplay. But what I try to show in
(31:21):
that story, and what this thenlooks like, really practically,
is where I really tell thestory, mainly through lay people
that are, you know, not the, notthe paid pastor who's leading
the church, but through, throughlay people. And it really, it
starts with, it does start witha pastor, through his own
experience, who helps his laypeople have a kind of watch word
(31:45):
that says, we follow Jesus insorrow. That's what we do. What
it means to be a Christian isyou follow Jesus into sorrow,
because Jesus is found insorrow. And then all these
experiences happen. You know,like this woman who runs HR has
to fire somebody, and the herher job performance is going
down because she's lost herfather, and it's in the wellness
(32:06):
profession. And she realizes thewellness profession and the
wellness culture will help youhack everything to find your
happiness. The one thing willnot do with you is help you bear
grief. It's not built for that.
And so there's a sense of herseeing that this is a person who
is beckoning for me to be withthem and care for them. I don't
think, I don't think we canreally faithfully evangelize
(32:27):
people. We surely can't if we'rescared of the word. So we should
not be scared of the word, butat the second level, we
shouldn't be thinking, well, howcan we send people in our church
out as minions to evangelize. Imean it usually what we mean is
like, how can we, I don't know,like, what's a, what's a sci fi
example here, like we vampiresthat, you know, like, make more
(32:50):
vampires, or walking deadzombies that make more walking
dead zombies. Now I'm reallyloading the analogy here in the
metaphor, but I don't think weshould think of it that way. I
think we should really try tohelp people in our communities
be sensitive to where JesusChrist moves and acts, and where
Jesus Christ moves and acts. I'mtrying to make a case here is in
places of sorrow, and so wherethe Christian is called is to
(33:13):
care for the person who's insorrow. And they're very
personhood, their very humanity,their very care for the other
who is in sorrow becomes aproclamation of the gospel. It
becomes a kind of sacramentalmoment where we make a claim,
where we confess that God movesand acts. So I think really
(33:35):
quite practically, it's abouthelping people be sensitive and
open to where there are thegreat goodbyes in there that the
person who lives next door orthe person at work. And so in
some sense, this is where I'm,you know, I really think
discipleship and evangelism arereally close together. The
objective is to keep disciplingyour people, giving them a
(33:57):
vision of how God acts andmoves, giving them a watch word
to hold to, and then, as theyembrace people in their lives,
and these events of call themdeeper in the act of evangelism
happens, happens that way. So Ithink it really is very
practical, and yet it can't beformulaic in any way you know,
and
Joshua Johnson (34:19):
your previous books, and what you've done,
you're calling people to wait,to wait on this God who's going
to act, to remember hisfaithfulness. And that's really
difficult in this modern agewhere time has sped up so fast
that that's why, you know we'reonline and we're all outraged,
(34:40):
because we think that everythingis so immediate, and if we don't
get to it right now, it's gonnago away, how do we move that to
the side and actually sit withgrief? I think that's probably
why Americans are really bad atgrief and lament. They're
horrible at it. So how. Do we dothat? How do we make time? Or
(35:01):
just we have time? How do we sitwith it? I
Andrew Root (35:04):
think there's two things at play. One is exactly
what you're saying, that we'rethat we fear, we fear two
things. We fear that to sit withit, it will last forever. And so
it's like, okay, I'm willing togrieve. But, I mean, it's a
little bit like, I don't know ifI felt this way during the
pandemic, but you'd have peoplesay it, like, just tell me when
(35:25):
it's over. If you could justgive me a date, even if it was,
like, two years from now, butyou're just like, july 11, it's
over, then I'm cool, orwhatever. It's the kind of
unknownness of it that drove, Ithink all of us a bit crazy, but
grief is that way too. Like,there's no you have to grieve
for 1010 hours, and then you'refine. Or you have to grieve for
(35:47):
10 days, or you have to grievefor 10 months. You don't know,
you know, like, you just haveto, you just have to live in it.
It's different for everyone'sexperience. And we don't like
that like we would like to justoptimize, tell me how to deal
with it. So that's one reality,but the other reality of it is
is, I do think we we believe ata deep existential level that
grief or sadness will destroyus, and we believe that, because
(36:11):
we do believe that the highestend of the human life is to be
happy. And I don't know I'd likeI've as a parent, I feel this
way, like when my kids areunhappy. I feel frustrated with
them. Like, it's like, get overthis. Like, I this is incredibly
inconvenient for me. Could youjust kind of get over this? But
(36:36):
there is a kind of sense that Ialso want them over because I'm
I'm afraid they'll never comeback from this. Like, what if
they're sad for ever? And we, wethen there. We therefore think
there's no value in it. Like,there's absolutely, when you're
driven just to be happy, there'sno value really, in sadness. And
(36:56):
yet, any artist would tell you,or anyone who works that are
kind of our artistic cadencewould tell you there's
incredible value and sadness.
You know, like some of the mostbeautiful pieces of art make us
sad, but they make us feelsomething. They make us feel
alive, you know, so it, it is. Ithink that's part of the issue
(37:18):
is that we just don't trust thatthere's actually there's,
there's not any presence in thesadness, that it is just the
very opposite of happiness, andall we want to be is happy,
because that's what it means tolive well and in what that
ultimately does. I mean, I'm nota hater of happiness. I like
(37:38):
happiness as much as the nextperson. But if all you live for
is happiness, then all you do islive on the surface. And artists
and philosophers have known along time that if you're willing
to interrogate sadness. I mean,if you do it, if you do it
alone, you can become a bummer.
You know, like you can, youknow, just look at French
(38:00):
existentialists, you know, likeyou can become a real bummer,
but also someone who hasn't beenwilling to lean into their
sadness is also very much asurface person. And what I'm
trying to get at in this book isthat inside the Christian
tradition there's a deep,there's a deep, deep vein here
that says that, yeah, well, thatthat that God becomes present
(38:22):
comforting. Those who so are aresorrowful. So Blessed are those
who grieve. Blessed are thosewho are sad,
Joshua Johnson (38:29):
for their eyes will be open to see the presence
of the living God who cares forthe brokenhearted. We get to
follow them, this man ofsorrows. Yeah, that's who we get
to follow. How do we do this inwhat does it look like in either
like our wider community? I'mthinking about our nation. I'm
thinking about America. I'mthinking about the pursuit of
(38:52):
happiness. This is all we'vebeen doing, is pursuing
happiness. It is an act ofprotest to slow down as a
community and feel sadness andgrief and sorrow and say, We're
gonna walk with you through thisthing. What does it look like to
do it as a as a whole, and notjust individually?
Andrew Root (39:15):
Yeah, I mean, it is, it is a question like, I
think we're at a peculiar placeright now, because, you know,
like, even what we were justtalking about, and I do, and I
would want to say, this is thethe main thing that I'm
emphasizing is these events,these realities, like, people
may be really upset about what'shappening in the country from
whatever kind of side they'reon, but you can't stop the fact
(39:38):
that someone in your communitiescan be diagnosed with cancer,
and all of a sudden that's goingto be the issue, issue at hand,
at least for them, or whatthey're going to need is someone
to walk with them in the midstof this. But at another level, I
mean, we are looking at a momentof great transition here, you
know, like and this takes us alittle outside the book, but in
(39:59):
some ways. Not because, youknow, like one of the things I
try to argue in this book isthat when you even look at some
of these articulations of in the1990s that the 1990s are really
positive and that this all fallsapart for us. But one of the
reasons the 1990s were sopositive, and I, you know, look
(40:21):
at the philosopher CharlesTaylor, as well as the
philosopher Stephen toolman.
Have these really positive kindof genealogies, like the 90s are
going to be finally living intosome of the ideals that came out
of the 60s, or kind of get getindividualism under control in
some way or something, and thatthose don't come to fruition,
the last three decades of the21st century become quite sad
ones. But one of the reasonsthey're so positive is because
(40:42):
it feels like, Well, I mean,just really concretely the
Berlin Wall stone, and, youknow, the Cold War is over, and
it looks like maybe economicgrowth may be kind of returning,
globally in a certain way. And Ithink what we're seeing right
now is that, again, this isbeyond the book, but we are
(41:04):
really seeing the ending of the20th century completely, like,
you know, like even the wayAmerica is responding to Europe,
like, it's, it's the kind oflogics of the 20th century are
really over. And I think at acertain level, we we, I'll just
speak for myself, like, grievesome of that, like grieve some
(41:24):
of the way the world was that itfeels like it will not be able
to be put back together. Andtherefore, we are on a precipice
of great change coming, like weare the kind of larger order of
the country, as well as theorder of the of the globe, in
many ways, is, is in the midstof a great kind of transition,
(41:45):
like at that level we are kindof 100 years ago, 150 or like,
you know, like end of the 19thcentury, you know, just before
and then after world war onekind of reshaping the way the
world works And the way evenpeople interact with each other.
And I feel, you know, we feel alot of great anxiety around
that. So there is a kind ofquestion of discerning the
(42:07):
difference between anxiety andsadness, you know, and too much
anxiety can make you quite sad,but they're not always the same
thing. And so I think in themidst practically, of anxiety,
we part of our pastoralleadership is to remind people
that anxiety isn't is a goodresponse to things being in
(42:31):
flux. It's not a bad feeling,and to remind them that God is
is in control of this. And thatdoes not mean that it could not
become bleak or difficult, oreconomies couldn't crumble, or,
you know, all sorts of thingsone couldn't even imagine could
could happen in the way our ourlives are ordered, and we
(42:51):
should, but that there is agreater hope that we have, and
then to To avoid the temptationof that anxiety about what will
order the world to take us awayfrom the concreteness of the
ones who suffer in our midst.
And I think that is a real Imean, particularly thinking the
(43:13):
main line that's one of the bigissues is that everyone is
fighting for some ideologicalperspective and fear that they
almost miss, at a kind of globallevel, at a larger macro level,
that they miss the person intheir community. I mean, the 85
(43:34):
year old person their communityis utterly alone and has stopped
coming to church because theyhurt their they slipped on the
ice and broke their hip, and noware literally deteriorating and
dying, and had been part of thischurch for 45 5060, years, and
now are being forgotten whilewe're all anxious about what the
next executive order is going tobe. And again, that's not to
(43:56):
minimize that stuff, but it isto say there's a deep temptation
that we forget the concretepeople before us, and it's not
even people in our community,but the person across the street
who is, who's, you know, alonely and not part of our
church, but is having to say agreat goodbye to something, some
something or someone, and notbeing with them. So I think try
(44:16):
to help our communities parseout the difference between being
anxious and not minimizing thatanxiety, but also what it means
to be in moments of loss andsorrow. And sometimes those are
the same thing, and sometimesthose are different.
Joshua Johnson (44:29):
It seems like if we all were able to care for
those in our midst that were inpain and struggling and
sorrowful, that would make ahuge difference than just
because we we would be humanagain. It feels like, if we're
we're focused on the on themacro constantly. It feels like
(44:50):
we're just trying to make surethat this machine is going to do
what I want the machine to do.
But we, we need to, like, figureout, what does it look like to
be human? Yeah, in this day andage, absolutely. What do you
think like, if you would say tosomebody like, these are the
things that it means to behuman. What does it mean to be
(45:10):
human as opposed machine? Yeah,and
Andrew Root (45:16):
I think one of the things that it ultimately means
to be human is to be the kind ofcreature who needs others. And I
do think we live in a kind ofmoment where we think we don't
really need them, you know,we've take that kind of Satra
view that other people are hell,you know. And particularly other
people with other ideologies areare hell. But to be human is to,
(45:41):
well, it's two things, I thinkit is to be the kind of creature
who needs others, and you're thekind of creature who needs
others, because to be human isto have to say goodbye. You have
to say goodbye. You have to saygoodbye to your health. You have
to say goodbye to your kidsbeing, you know, 11 and 12, and
now they're 13 and 14. You haveto say goodbye to your kids as
(46:02):
they go off and launch theirlives. You have to say goodbye
to parents who are passing away.
You have to say goodbye to aspouse who's who is suffering
from dementia like you have tothere the human life is saying
goodbye all the time. And thatopens up this deep question of,
can you do that by yourself? No,can you do that just in a a
(46:23):
community that you're only inthat community because you
correlate to its ideologies? No,you need others. And can you do
that without some kind of divinereferent that can give order to
this and gives practices? Idon't think so. You know, like,
I think a pushback to that couldbe like, well, the only reason I
(46:45):
have a god is because you can'tcope with your existential
fallibility. But at anotherlevel, again, there's nothing
more beautiful than thesemoments of having to say
goodbye. This is why mostpastors say they feel the most
alive doing funerals becausethey are on. They're at this
place where they get to speakinto deep sorrow and hold people
(47:05):
and without minimizing thatsorrow also speak of deep forms
of hope and possibility thatdoesn't come around the sorrow
isn't a detour around it. Itgoes straight through it, which
is why, again, most pastors Italk to will say they feel the
most alive or like theirvocation is the most significant
when they're doing a funeral,because they're helping group of
(47:29):
people, they're helping acommunity say goodbye, and they
are reminding them that thatsaying goodbye is a Diem. It is
to God, and it is God's businessto be part of that. And I just
think that's how we be human,that we say goodbye and we
recognize that God has somethingto do with that saying goodbye.
Joshua Johnson (47:50):
That's beautiful. Andy, if you have a
hope for this book and for thepeople who read evangelism and
the age of despair, what? What'syour hope?
Andrew Root (47:59):
Yeah, my hope is a complete cultural, you know, as
a complete contradictioneverything I said, I hope it's
an Amazon bestseller and that Ithat I have a private jet after
this. No, my real hope is thatit, well, I guess my hope is
that it, that it can help formcommunities that look a little
(48:20):
bit like the story I told in it,which I think they're out there,
but I do, you know, like again,which is kind of, well, it's the
world I live in, but the churchthat I present is not a church
that anyone would look at and belike, Oh my gosh, this is the
most important church inSouthern California. Let's you
know, they wouldn't say in theirtown, let alone, you know, the
(48:42):
region or the state orsomething, it is just a small
group of people who are plottingalong and doing their best to
respond to where Jesus iscalling them. And that's the
great hope. Is that if we cancare for one another, that that
caring for one another isn'tjust a benign, nice thing to do,
(49:05):
it is it's sacramental. Thefinite and the infinite partake
in this common but profound actof bearing each other's burdens.
Joshua Johnson (49:16):
Anything you've been reading or watching lately,
you could recommend
Andrew Root (49:20):
we're struggling actually right now, because
we're in the middle ofseverance, and so we're, we're
just anticip, we'reanticipating. So I, you know
this is, this is just throwingshade on my my wife car. But I
was like, Hey, we gotta wait. Ijust want to store these, these
episodes up. And then she'slike, No, we so we re watched
the first season, and then westarted, and then we just were
(49:42):
hammering them, you know, likeevery night, two episodes, and
then all of a sudden, thedreaded, you know, like when
it's gonna queue up the nextepisode, it gives you a
different show. And, you know,you're caught up. And now you
have to wait till Thursday nightor Friday, or whatever that it
drops. So, yeah, we're in themiddle of that. So. Yeah,
that's, I would definitelyrecommend that. And it's making
(50:03):
problems for us as we wait,because every other show we
watch just feels, as the kidswould say, totally mid like it
just doesn't it's just not doingit. So yeah, I would definitely,
definitely recommend that.
Great.
Joshua Johnson (50:17):
Well, I love severance. I asked go check that
out. And just, yeah, you couldgo down the rabbit hole with
severance, and you could just gothrough different different
theories for a long time. Yeah,it's a lot of fun. Well, well
done. Show. Really impressive,really amazing. How can people
go out get to evangelism in theage of despair? Is there
(50:38):
anywhere you'd like to pointpeople to get the book. And
where else would you like topoint people to? Yeah, I think
Andrew Root (50:46):
I would just, yeah, wherever you feel comfortable
getting it. I think you'll beable to find it there and go
there if you know, if you lookfor convenience, obviously, it's
on Amazon. If you can supportyour local book store do that it
should be there, or, yeah,independent one online would be,
would be great. So that's,that's great. And, yeah, I mean,
(51:07):
if people want to find me thatthere's, I have a website that
chooses andrew.org and you can,you can find me there.
Joshua Johnson (51:14):
Andy, thank you for this conversation. Thank you
for going deep into our sorrowsand our sadness and our pain,
but knowing that there is aliving God that could actually
meet us and encounter us in thatand that we could walk with
community, that evangelism,discipleship can be paired
together, and we could continueto go on the pilgrimage to God
(51:36):
in our life. And so it wasbeautiful. I love our
conversation. Thank you so much.
Thanks.
Unknown (51:41):
Those are a pleasure.
You.
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