Ep. 296 Mary Marantz - Underestimated

There's a geography of limitation that exists not on any map, but in the quiet territories of our own making. Stories that whisper: this is as far as you'll go. Today, we are talking with Mary Marantz - a woman who understands that our beginnings are not our boundaries. Growing up in a single-wide trailer on the tippy top of Fenwick Mountain, she learned something profound: that grace isn't about erasing your history, but making peace with it. Imagine a young girl watching the world from that precipice, learning that survival isn't just about enduring, but reimagining. Mary's journey from that trailer to Yale Law School isn't a bootstrapping narrative of triumph, but a meditation on grace, on the way unexpected paths unfold when we listen carefully to the whispers of our own potential. How do we create space between who we were told we could be and who we are actually called to become? How do we recognize that the most revolutionary act might be showing up, day after day, for the work that won't let go of us? Mary writes about fear like an old friend - not something to vanquish, but to understand. She knows that the stories we tell ourselves are powerful, that they can either keep us small or become the very ground from which we grow. So join us as we walk through those stories together - not as a roadmap, but as an invitation. Here’s my conversation with Mary Marantz.

Mary Marantz is the bestselling author of Dirt and Underestimated, as well as the host of the popular podcast The Mary Marantz Show. She grew up in a trailer in rural West Virginia and was the first in her family to go to college before going on to Yale for law school. Her work has been featured on CNN, MSN, Business Insider, Bustle, Thrive Global, Southern Living, Hallmark Home & Family and more. She and her husband Justin live in an 1880s fixer-upper by the sea in New Haven, Connecticut, with their two very fluffy golden retrievers, Goodspeed and Atticus. Learn more at MaryMarantz.com.

Mary's Book:

Underestimated

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Episode Transcript

Unknown (00:00):
Where I talk about a sugar factory in Georgia that

(00:02):
exploded, and the reason that itexploded Joshua, was because the
sugar dust accumulated in thebasement. They weren't doing the
housekeeping to clean up thosemesses, and it acted like
gunpowder this. You know, sugardust turned a powder keg. And
that's what it's like chasingall these little sugary, sweet
dopamine hits of a high of goldstar after gold star. If you are

(00:23):
not doing the housekeeping, itwill turn into a sugar dust,
turn powder keg that leaves youburned out. I've been there.
I've done that. It doesn't work.

Joshua Johnson (00:42):
You Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, there's a
geography of limitation thatexists, not on any map, but in
the quiet territories of ourown, making stories that

(01:03):
whisper. This is as far asyou'll go today. We are talking
with Mary Morans, a woman whounderstands that our beginnings
are not our boundaries. Growingup in a single wide trailer on
the tippy top of Fenwickmountain, she learned something
profound, that grace isn't abouterasing your history, but making
peace with it. Imagine a younggirl watching the world from

(01:24):
that precipice, learning thatsurvival isn't about enduring,
but reimagining Mary's journeyfrom that trailer to Yale Law
School isn't a bootstrappingnarrative of triumph, but a
meditation on Grace, on the wayunexpected paths unfold when we
listen carefully to the whispersof our own potential. How do we
create space between who we weretold we could be and who we were

(01:47):
actually called to become? Howdo we recognize that the most
revolutionary act might beshowing up day after day for the
work that won't let go of us?
Mary writes about fear like anold friend, not something to
vanquish, but to understand. Sheknows that the stories we tell
ourselves are powerful, thatthey could either keep us small

(02:08):
or become the very ground fromwhich we grow. So join us as we
walk through those storiestogether, not as a roadmap but
as an invitation. Here is myconversation with Mary. Marantz,
Mary, welcome to shiftingculture. Really excited to have
you on. Thank you so much forjoining me. Yeah,

Unknown (02:28):
Joshua, thanks so much for having me. I've really been
looking forward to this. I waschecking out the podcast online,
and it just looks amazing, and Ifeel like we're gonna have a
great conversation.

Joshua Johnson (02:37):
Thanks. I hope so. That's the goal, to have a
really good conversation. Iwanted to get, get beyond the
place of like, hey, let's talkabout a book, to actually have a
genuine, authentic conversation.
So let's do it. Let's go andstart with your childhood. Who
were you? What was your lifelike? Where'd you grow up, and
what was forming you in yourearly days? I

Unknown (03:01):
love this, like I'm the only other person I know who's
like, hi, we've just met. Tellme about your childhood. Are you
an Enneagram for by any

Joshua Johnson (03:09):
chance? No, I'm a three wing four. So okay,
there

Unknown (03:12):
you go. There you go.
I'm a four wing three. So thereyou go. Okay, so if everybody's
listening, maybe you're meetingme for the very first time. I
grew up in the 1980s in a singlewide trailer in very rural West
Virginia, on the top, very tippytop of a mountain called Fenwick
mountain. My dad was a logger.
My mom cleaned houses. Sheactually ends up leaving when
I'm nine. You know, in part toleave and in part to travel for

(03:33):
work. It was sort of like acomplicated leaving, where she
would be back every couplemonths. So it was kind of, in
one way, sort of like she keptleaving over and over. When you
grow up like that, I say in myfirst book dirt, you know,
growing up without a lot justdoes something to your brain. I
can't explain it. Maybe it's theprefrontal cortex. Maybe it's
the, you know, neural pathwaysstill developing. Maybe it's
just inhaling all the mildew, Idon't know, but it makes you

(03:54):
expect to fail before you evenstart. And so that's where I
started. And then you fastforward, you know, in the movie,
you kind of get the the pretendmovie of my life, the luxury of
fast forwarding 20 years, and Ifind myself at Yale for law
school 25 years. And that's, youknow, we, in some ways, we've
heard that story before. We'veseen that real movie before. But

(04:16):
I wanted to kind of tell thatstory through the lens of grace,
of like, what does a humblebeginnings to like, you know,
Yale Law School Story look likewhen it's really about needing
to make peace with your past andhave forgiveness and empathy for
those who came before. And so ina lot of ways, the new book
underestimated is sort of like,I've been joking. It's kind of
like the textbook to dirt, whereit's like, if dirt is the story
underestimated is like, here'swhy we are the way we are. So

Joshua Johnson (04:38):
if you look back and you think about the ways
that your childhood, maybe yourmom leaving, what happens there
on the top of the mountain? Howdid that propel you into a place
of maybe overachieving, of whatother people thought you might
achieve, that you I'm gonna overachieve, and I'm going to prove
everybody wrong. And I'm gonnaget to the place that I think I

(05:02):
deserve. The underdogs

Unknown (05:04):
kind of have that sort of classic chip on our shoulder,
right? If anybody has ever,like, told me I can't do it,
it's like, great, more jet fuelfor the pack. You know, there's
that T shirt I'm wearing in alot of my photos with the book
that says, Go ahead,underestimate me. That'll be fun
and sort of that energy, andwe've gotten really good at
using that as this, you know, Isay it makes kind of terrible

(05:25):
jet fuel. It works in the shortterm. It gives you this really
big boost, but it is not asustainable source. It's the
kind of jet fuel that leaves youhollowed out and burned out on
the inside. And so my secondbook, slow growth, is actually
all about that, like, can wegive up achieving for our worth?
What does that look like? Soyes, there's a really
interesting book called thetriple package that I talk about
and underestimated that waswritten by two Yale professors

(05:46):
who were actually there when Iwas there, and I had one of them
for con law. And it's, you know,the triple package. It's like
three unlikely traits thatexplain success in America.
Basically. That's not exactlywhat the subtitle is, but it's
pretty close. And they identifyit as this, really, the first
two are this really paradoxicalbutting of heads of both what
they call a feeling ofsuperiority and a feeling of

(06:09):
insecurity. And so I don't likethat word superiority, because I
think it sounds like better thansomeone else, but I think like
what they're actually talkingabout is just this feeling of
being called to more and at thesame time doubting that someone
like you will ever get there,and how when those two kind of
rub against each other, theycreate this unprecedented drive
that creates most successfulpeople. So I think, like that

(06:29):
was pretty spot on for whathappened to me in

Joshua Johnson (06:31):
the history of America. We've seen that happen
over and over. That's reallysort of the spirit of America.
It seems to me that the spiritof America has shifted and
changed a little bit wherethere's not as much of a drive
and a purpose to say we couldactually achieve something.
There's a lot of malaise that ishappening at the moment. There's

(06:52):
like, hey, let's just talk aboutour mental health issues and
just be stuck in the place oflike, I am an underdog. I don't
think that life is there's nopurpose to it. There's a
malaise. I know that you in yourbook, you talk a little bit
about overcoming some of that,like moving towards a better

(07:13):
place. How do we then move fromthis place of malaise and not
get stuck there, but actuallymove towards healing growth,
that we could be propelled intosomething bigger than we are.
Yeah,

Unknown (07:27):
yeah. So the malaise is a very interesting thing. I
think, like I for sure, haveseen a vast change in people
post pandemic. My husband and Iwere photographers. We've been
photographers. We've hadphotography business for 20 plus
years. We speak at conferences,and we have noticed, just in the
last couple years, a stark,stark contrast in the
entrepreneurs were meeting, youknow, when we were coming up,

(07:49):
there was a hunger. There was ahunger in us. There was a hunger
in every entrepreneur. We werethat we met, every photographer
we met. We were putting togethershoots. We were, you know,
shooting for each other. We werenetworking. We were hosting
groups, we were all gonna risetogether. Most of the people
that we were talking with hadthis sense of, I'm not where I
want to be, but it's okay, and Ito for me and the way that I'm

(08:12):
wired, I was like I did, doesnot compute. I don't know what
you're talking about, so I dothink that there is something
that happened. I think it's areally nuanced conversation. I
think we would want to be, youknow, really clear to say that,
like I talked on the flip sideof things I say and
underestimated, if we never seeanother bootstrap again, that
would be fine with us, likewe're tired of having to be the
tough ones, and like this ideathat you can always pull

(08:34):
yourself up out of everysituation, like it's more
nuanced than that. But I'm I forsure, am tracking on like
something has changed in thelast few years. I would say that
this book gets more into theheart of like, the person who
like really does like they youknow, it's that thing of like,
you can't go a day withoutthinking about it like there's
the thing they know they'rebeing called to do. And rather

(08:55):
than it being sort of a meh,maybe malaise, it's more of a
overthinking to the point ofoverwhelm. It's more of a like
fight, flight or freeze or fawnkind of fear response. And so
the book does a lot of unpackingthat, depending on what it is,
every chapter, in fact, Joshuatalks about a different face of
fear. You know, for your peoplelistening, we go through

(09:15):
procrastination, perfectionism,people pleasing, overthinking,
imposter syndrome, criticism,failure, success and even more.
There's 14 of them in total. Andso depending on how fear likes
to attack you in particular, andfor me, it's all 14. So I was
totally fine to write about eachof those.
You're a big ball of fear. Yeah,well,
I'm, you know, listen, actually,you overcome it, because I say

(09:35):
in the book it wouldn't botheryou. Fear wouldn't bother you if
you weren't about to do work.
That matters. So if it'sattacking me on 14 when I'm
doing work, that really matters.
Really Matters. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson (09:44):
that's good. So one of the things he said is
that there's going to be apersistent, consistent call that
you'll feel like this is justsomething that I have to do, and
it does not go away. It's Ican't shake it. How do we start
to learn how to. To not juststay stuck in that place, but
actually hear the call and say,I'm going to take a small first

(10:08):
step to move towards that call.
Yeah,

Unknown (10:11):
I love that question, because it's really kind of the
backbone of the book. There's awhole breakout section called
the shift. The subtitle of thebook is a surprisingly simple
shift, to quit playing small,needing the fear and move
forward anyway. And that shiftsection I talk about how I read
an article once that said, thebest ideas are switch, not a
dial, then I'll just turn thevolume up on what we were
already thinking. We actuallyflip that thing on its very

(10:34):
head. And the kind of likeInstagram, you know, meme worthy
success account, take of choiceis that if we want to quit
playing small, we have to alwaysgo big leap and the net will
appear. Which I joke inunderestimated is just terrible
aeronautics advice. By the way,it's a Schrodinger cat of gold
chasing them. It may appear. Itmay not. My whole approach is

(10:57):
that paradoxically Andironically, the way that we quit
playing small, some of the mostimportant work we're going to do
for that is actually by startingsmall, we are expanding our
capacity for self trust. And byself trust, I don't mean like
self help in the kind oftraditional sense where it's
like, it's all about us and ourself sufficiency. It's like
little t trust, likestewardship. So our capacity for

(11:18):
steward stewarding the workwe've been called to the gifts
we've been entrusted with, andthat, little by little, day by
day, who we are becoming is itoccurs in the day by day, not in
the big swings. I've had massivebig swings in my life. Yale Law
School, a Coast to Coast tourwith my face on the side of a
bus. Australia, for a workshop.
It has like to teach a workshop.
It has never once made me stopdoubting myself, but becoming a

(11:42):
person this grown up in the roomwho can be trusted, that has
that's the work that's actuallystarted to undo it.

Joshua Johnson (11:48):
That's so good.
How do we recognize that now,okay, there's this call, there's
this shift that we need to takeplace. But I'm I'm scared.
There's some, some fear that isgoing to take place. Maybe I'm
freezing like I don't want totake the first step. How do we
recognize that fear is a liar,and what is? What is fear for
us? And how do we diffuse fear?

Unknown (12:10):
Okay, I'm ready. Are you ready? Here we go. Here we
go. Okay. First of all, I lovethat you said Fear is a liar. In
the book, I say specifically,fears are really boring liar. A
couple years ago, I just sort ofhopped on Instagram and filmed a
video, really quick off thecuff, because I noticed this
coming up over and over with mycoaching clients, and I just
hopped on and I filmed it, and Isaid, it's all been done. It's
all been done better. It's allbeen done by somebody the world

(12:31):
actually wants to pay attentionto. I can't start until I'm
perfect. I can't start untilit's perfect. I can't start
until I have the bandwidth. Whatif I can't stay consistent with
it? What if the critics come?
What if they say, Who does he orshe thinks she is? What if I
don't actually have what ittakes and I prove them all right
all along? What if my voicedoesn't matter? What if I don't
matter? What if it's already toolate? The same scripts fear uses
on me, it uses on nearly all ofus, because fear, here's my

(12:54):
theory, and I'm really proud ofit. When you know this is like
the high every writer's chasingwhen these two dots connect in a
way you haven't seen themconnected before. Connected
before. What if fear attackscreatives because it's jealous
that it itself is not creativeat all. It just has this one,
you know, short little list ofscripts it can pull from. And so
my whole goal, Joshua with thisbook. You know, I mentioned, my

(13:15):
husband and I are photographers.
We taught photography coursesfor years. I have a teacher's
heart. I really, trulyunderstand how to make people
understand a concept, and I knowthat we learn best by story and
visuals, right? The greatestteacher on the planet taught by
stories and metaphors parables,and when that parable didn't
make sense, he just told anotherone, right? And so my goal is

(13:36):
that for each of these differenttypes of fear, so each chapter,
and then each subsection in eachchapter, I'm creating these
incredibly memorable visuals.
This is just the researchRiptide this is just the Oliver
Twist problem. This is just theprincess and the P problem. This
is the Edward Scissorhandsproblem. And so when I'm giving
you this picture of we feel likewe're walking around in the book
with this missing handbook. Inchapter four, we're kind of like

(13:58):
Edward Scissorhands without allthe pertinent parts bumping up
against all these rules of allthe people in the pretty pastel
suburbs and wondering why we'rethe ones dying by death of 1000
cuts. Well now the next time youfind yourself second guessing
yourself and it feels like, Oh,this is just a missing handbook
turned to Edward Scissorhandsproblem, it becomes a lot easier
to identify fear in the room.

(14:20):
And when you do that, itdiffuses it of all its power.

Joshua Johnson (14:22):
When you were first deciding to we go to Yale
Law School, and you were afraid,what did fear look like in you?
And how did you just say, I'mgonna do it anyways,

Unknown (14:34):
fear looks like to me in the moment that I got into
Yale Law School in dirt, Iactually say, what if success is
where all the real troublebegins. What if you get
everything you ever wanted andyour thin epidermis doesn't stop
screaming like this raw nerveending screaming out in the
world? What if you still feellike a walking, waking imposter?
And so that's kind of the heartof honestly, why I wanted to

(14:54):
write this book in the firstplace. Because what I realized
is that if I can go from atrailer to the number one loss.
School in the country and stillfeel like not enough, still feel
fear and doubt myself, then Iknew that it wasn't going to be
this external thing, thisarrival point that was going to
fix it. It was going to have tobe an inside job. And so I felt
a lot of fear for those threeyears, and mostly what that

(15:16):
looked like for me was holdingother people at arm's length,
rejecting them before they got achance to reject me, putting on
a really outward, polishedperformance so that nobody could
ever judge the little girl inthe trailer I was walking around
with. And then you fast forwardsome years, and I'm a business
owner and a speaker, and I startto share about that trailer, and
it turns out it was actuallylike part of my superpower lines

(15:38):
out the back of the room at theconferences for somebody to come
up and say, Me too. I grew up ina trailer too, or I grew up with
that a lot too. So I think itwas kind of a process of going,
oh, right, perfect and shiny.
Are a stiff arm. They're Heismanpose. And owning your story is
actually when you start to reachpeople.

Joshua Johnson (15:55):
I think a lot of us, when we feel like imposters,
we want to really persist, goreally hard to try to be perfect
so that people can see us as thethe perfect one, that we want to
hide our flaws as you started toreckon with your flaws and
realize that, hey, this, thisrocket fuel, is going to burn
out pretty quick. And I'm reallyjust trying to people please and

(16:18):
really work on perfectionism.
And it's not actually working.
I'm not feeling the shift insideof myself. I could see it, and I
want other people to see it. Wasthere a time in your life where
you go, Oh, I actually have todo the inside work. I have to
shift my own mental state sothat I can do this for the long

(16:38):
haul.

Unknown (16:38):
Yeah, 100% the things that are coming up for me right
now in this moment are, chapter10 is called perfectionism is
hiding with better PR. And I wasreally proud of that. That's
like, one of my favorite titlesof all the chapters. Like, when
that dot, when those dotsconnected? I was like, Ooh,
that's really good. Like, notsince the got milk, people, has
there been an ad campaign tomake something so plain Jane
vanilla seems so sexy and soughtafter. And that chapter,

(17:01):
although it sounds kind of sillyand fun the way I just described
it there, it's really about whenmy mom left and I learned to use
perfect as a weapon. I'll showyou. I'm gonna build a life so
beautiful and so impressive onthe outside that you'll regret
not being here for any of it.
And I pair that with something Italk about in slow growth,
called The Illusionist in thedistance, where we don't think
we can start until we'reperfect. And so this these
perfect like 1000 illusionilluminated versions of us on

(17:24):
mountaintop moments. Keeplooking us in the eye, smiling a
superior smile, and going onwithout us. So it's one thing to
have somebody else leave us.
It's another thing to abandonourselves in 1000 ways, trying
to be a version of us just sothat we can be accepted,
approved, loved. Let's just callit what it is we think, if we're
perfect enough, no one will everleave one will ever leave us
again. And you pair that withchapter 14, where there's this

(17:46):
one part where I talk about asugar factory in Georgia that
exploded, and the reason that itexploded Joshua was because the
sugar dust accumulated in thebasement. They weren't doing the
housekeeping to clean up thosemesses, and it acted like
gunpowder. This, you know, sugardust turned a powder keg. And
that's what it's like chasingall these little sugary, sweet

(18:07):
dopamine hits of a high of goldstar after gold star. If you are
not doing the housekeeping, itwill turn into a sugar dust turn
powder keg. That leaves youburned out. I've been there.
I've done that. It doesn't work.
And so I kind of had to go,okay, if I'm not going to spend
my whole life feeling that way,what does it look like for me to
actually show up and live a lifeof purpose, and that's like when
it becomes about other peopleand not about me, showing

(18:28):
somebody else that they werewrong about me. So

Joshua Johnson (18:31):
what does that look like in your life? Then
what does it look like to have asense of purpose that is about
other people and not about you?
Yeah,

Unknown (18:38):
100% I feel specifically put here to serve
two groups. The first group isanimals, but that's a whole
different podcast. We'll putthat off to the side. I grew up
with a lot of stray dogs in theyard that didn't meet and cats
that didn't need very happyendings. No, funny. I don't know
why my thing of that, it wasreally horrible actually, but so
I have a big heart for servingthem, but pertinent to our
conversation, the other people Iknow that I was put here to

(18:58):
serve are the generationchangers. They are the Sharpie
mark through the family treethat creates a before and after
that says it ends with me. And alot of those people Joshua
already look like they're verysuccessful. They look like the
most put together person in theroom. They look like the person
with the good resume. But theyhave hit an upward ceiling
because they've made it aboutme, my stability, my survival,

(19:20):
my security, my success and truesignificance is a leap to the
other side, where it says, howdo I show up and become a guide
for someone else? So if I canactually help those people who I
already know are so impressive,get set free of this grip that
fear like has on their lives,the ripple effects that I
believe I'm going to get aglimpse of in heaven are going

(19:40):
to be really cool to witness. Sothat's what you know, 12 hours a
day for 12 months of writingthis book, every time I wanted
to quit, that's what kept mepushing. It's like this could
change family trees.

Joshua Johnson (19:50):
That'd be amazing to see generations
change and family trees change.
That's incredible. You talkedabout fear being a boring liar,
and that fear attacks create.
Creatives because fear can'tcreate, right? So a lot of
people, I think, when, when theyhear the word creatives, I
think, all right, I'm not reallyan artist, I'm not a musician, I

(20:11):
I don't write. Am I a creative100% Yeah. So define creative
for me and tell tell me whyeveryone is a creative Well,

Unknown (20:22):
I think what's really cool is that you know what you
and I, what you and I agree onand have in common is that we
believe that we were created bythe Creator, the creator, and
made in His image. And so Ithink like that is naturally
inherent in all of us, even ifyou're somebody who tests on the
like, more like T side of theINFJ, or the Myers, Briggs
scale, I'm an INFJ so I saidthat you know, or you're, you're

(20:44):
somebody who, like, works inlike computer programming, or
you're a tax accountant, orwhatever the case may be, I
believe every single one of usis partnering with God to create
the life that we were called to.
Right. These desires have beenplaced in our heart. A good work
has been prepared for us inadvance, whether you work in
ministry or secular, thetraditionally creative roots or
something that's just much more.

(21:06):
You know, like I mentioned, liketaxes or spreadsheets. My
husband loves spreadsheets,whatever the case is. I believe
with our words that have thepower of life and death. I
believe with our actions, thesteps that we're taking that are
either calling us closer towhere God has us or further
away, we are partnering in everyway for how we show up in the
world. And I think that that isjust inherently a creative life

(21:26):
every single day. I wrote thisbook every single day, no
exaggeration, I prayed thisprayer, God grant me a merry
size portion that my Mary sizedbrain can handle, of the place
where your infinite well ofcreativity overlaps with your
infinite well of wisdom and thiskind of overlapping sure creates
this sort of explosion of newideas and people understanding

(21:47):
things in brand new ways. And sowhether that's with words,
Instagram captions,conversations you have at the
water cooler, at work, we areeach creating an impact with our
lives every day. That

Joshua Johnson (21:58):
impact is huge and is key, and we don't know
the the actual impact that wehave every single day, with
people around us, for good orfor ill, you're going to have an
impact that's right happen. Andso we have to be intentional.
And so fear stops us, I think,from being intentional to create
something good in this world.
Why do you say that that fear isboring and it's a boring liar

(22:22):
that is not that's a scary liar.

Unknown (22:28):
That's right. Well, I think what's so important for
people to realize, and this isactually, I just did an
Instagram post about thisyesterday, is that, you know,
kind of like unpacking all thatstuff I just said to you about
the those lines it uses, and howit's not creative, but it
attacks creatives. I said here'sthe other thing you need to know
about fear. Is that fear is nota very creative guy, but he is a
busy guy, and like any good,productive overachiever, he has

(22:53):
learned how to prioritize. Andso if you're just playing small,
already hiding in plain sight,not showing up and doing the
work you were called to a littleall or nothing, thinking, some
perfectionism, a little selfsabotage sprinkled in, and
you're in like, maintenance fearmode at best. He doesn't need to
spend a lot of time on you. Showup and say, I'm going to start
to do the work I was mostcreated to do that will actually
help people. And fear is goingto show up, teeth bared,

(23:15):
snarled, this really uglyversion of himself, and I say to
him, like, we're just going tokind of use in the in the
Instagram post, maybe you'llappreciate this. I said we're
going to use a little like rope,a dope, to kind of pull him in,
let him wear himself out alittle bit, and as our rocky
four soundtrack starts to swell,we're going to hit him with a
knockout punch, and we're goingto use that weakness against
him. Fear is so boring anduncreative and predictable, and

(23:40):
how about we use it to predictwhen we're on the right track?
Fear has just showed up in fullforce. Good. You're about to do
work that matters,

Joshua Johnson (23:47):
so Okay, fear has shown up. We know that the
calling. We could feel itinside. We know where we're
going. We're taking that firststep as you're coaching people
that are on the journey and thatare taking these steps. Where
are people getting stuck? Whereare the places where you go? Oh,
okay, I did this, but I don'tknow. Maybe I'll revert back to

(24:09):
something easy for me. Oh,actually, so

Unknown (24:11):
I was about to say for my first answer, which I'm gonna
come back to, but I'm gonnaswitch it to my second answer.
When you said I'm gonna dosomething easy for me. Two
things come up for me with that.
Number one is that in chapterthree, self sabotage is a shot
glass which is not aboutdrinking alcohol at all. It's
about the small, tiny containerswe believe we belong in. I talk
about how chaos is familiar andwe become addicted to it, and if
we didn't grow up with stabilityin our childhoods, or if we

(24:33):
didn't have that at an early,you know, formative part of our
adult years, we return to itover and over again, because we
mistake what is comfortable forwhat is safe. In chapter seven,
overthinking is an orange safetycone. I actually talk about the
science of this there, when weare thinking too hard, when we
get moved into our prefrontalcortex, and it's just really
stuck in overdrive. And it'skind of like, you know, like
when you feel like you're goingto sneeze out your forehead,

(24:55):
because you're so stuck on aproblem, all that angst, just.
Pent up right there. That isactually, if you spend too much
time and really just likeadvanced thinking like that, it
creates an actual fatigue inyour brain. But it also creates
a toxic buildup of a substancecalled glutamate, and your brain
will actually switch you into,like, low cost, easy, you know,
reward, that instantgratification, reward, go get an

(25:19):
easy check mark to move you outof that prefrontal cortex and
into, like, more of your limbicbrain as a way of self
preserving. So it's actualscience that if you start
overthinking a problem too much,if, like the if the thing feels
too gargantuan to you. There's asection called the colossus of
clout from The Sandlot where Iactually talk about, when we
make the problem, the dream feeltoo big that we can't ever get

(25:41):
started on it. When it starts tofeel too big, too impossible.
The predictive brain, it'scalled Bayesian brain theory,
will shift us into easy wins, toself Preserve. It's actual
science. There's a reason we dothis. So that's my kind of
answer to that. There's actualscience as to why that's
happening. That'll be my answeras to why we switch to something
easier. Is like we're actuallywe're brain preserving, but
we're also self preserving too.

(26:02):
We don't want to bedisappointed. We don't want to
try and not be as good as wehoped it could be. It's easier
to just stick with what you knowyou're good at, kid, stick with
the easy win. So where

Joshua Johnson (26:11):
do you think that your clients are get most
stuck in? Oh,

Unknown (26:15):
there it is. Yeah, I knew we'd get back there. That's
the other one. Yes. Okay, so Ithink my clients get most stuck
in what I call the existentialdread cycle. So I also call this
a few other things in the book,but one of them is the Dewey Cox
problem. I don't know if youever saw these. Oh yeah, walk
hard. It's a spoof of Walk theLine. And it begins with like,

(26:38):
give him a minute, son, DeweyCox has to think about his whole
life before it goes on stage.
And it's that, it's that's whatwe do. We say, I'm going to do
the dream. I literally just hada coaching client hire me. She's
going to come up here for twodays. We're going to build out
her book proposal. And I it likeit was like and right on time
existential dread. I got tothink about my whole life before
we do this. And we'll, they'lljust get stuck in that, like
they have to think through everyif then iteration and variable

(27:00):
that could possibly come intoplay. And we all think that we
have to have everything figuredout before we can get started.
But the truth is, we have to getstarted in order to figure it
out.

Joshua Johnson (27:10):
I think there's, there's two, two types of
people. I think one is the onesthat need to figure everything
out before they get started, andthe other, they just jump in and
they don't know really whatthey're doing. They'll figure it
out. So the problem with thelatter the second people, if
they're just going to jump in,they're very instinctual. They
they could get to a certainpoint, because it's just innate

(27:33):
within them, and they could,they could bootstrap it right?
They could get it going, butthey can't pass it along very
well, because they don'tunderstand how they got there.
Wow. And then the other peoplesay, I need all the
understanding before I could getgoing. I think we we need each
other. So in those two people,as we like, get rid of the fear.

(27:56):
We knock it out. We say, you'redone. How do we work together in
that where, hey, maybe there issomebody that's just gonna go
try and experiment and dothings, and maybe the person
that has the understanding goes,Oh, I could see the steps you
took to get there. And then wecould build something together.
How do we start to worktogether? Okay,

Unknown (28:16):
I'm gonna just, I'm gonna talk through what's coming
up for me. It's and we'll see.
We'll see. If we get to ananswer, we'll see. Okay, so the
thing that's coming up for me isit's this two part component of
in the book, I compare thedifference between perfectionism
and excellence, and I say thatyou can be a recovering
perfectionist and also a personof incredible standards for
excellence, and I am that. Andthe what's the difference

(28:36):
between the two? Perfectionismis driven by fear, and it's that
I don't, you know, I'm afraidsomebody's gonna not love me.
Excellence is driven by love,and it's how you do anything, is
how you do everything. And I'mgonna pair that with another
part in the book where I talkabout overnight is overrated.
You know, I said my second bookis slow growth equals stronger
ease. I'm a big fan of us takingour time. I never Joshua. I want
somebody to be able to say thatthe most impressive thing about

(28:59):
me is how little time I've beenat this work. And so what's
coming up for me in answer toyour question, is, like, it's
this middle ground. It's thismiddle ground where we're both
not frozen and stuck and nevermoving forward, but we're also
not these people who are cuttingcorners and taking shortcuts and
all we care about is getting tothe end result, and we don't
care about the character beingforged in the process. I was on
a podcast the other day, and Iwas saying, I resonate a lot

(29:21):
with King David, because, like,not only was he overlooked, they
forgot he was even there. He'sout in the field, you know, and
then, you know, he's like, Ilove when they talk about, like
he had spent so much time doingtarget practice on these much
smaller targets, like wolves,you know, he's protecting the
sheep that the Giant was areally easy target to hit, but
he spent his time in the field,in the hidden season, working on

(29:42):
the craft, but not necessarilythe character, and so when he
got his moment in the palace,that lack of character was an
undoing. So my answer is that wedo. We need each other, but we
also need that balance inourselves. We need to not stay
stuck, but we also need to nottry to rush the outcome. Because
the character work that's beingdone while we're waiting is
going to be the thing that keepsus there when we get there, I'm

(30:04):
curious, which type are you

Joshua Johnson (30:07):
a little bit of both. Sometimes it depends on
what it is. I would probably goinstinctual for a long time.
I'll start something, and I'mokay with that, and before I
know everything, and so I'll getthere first. But I do. I'm such
a learner that I want all theinformation understanding. But I
will start, and I'll get going,which is, yeah, it's good. Let's

(30:31):
go. Okay. I am starting. I amgetting going. I've shifted into
a new place. I am starting atthis creative business that I
still don't know what it is, butit's been a couple of months
where I've been able to shiftinto a new role like and so I
have freedom. So this is theplace that I'll just say. The

(30:52):
fear that I have is that I coulddo anything. And so how do you
get people into a place where,oh, everything, like options are
open. You can do anything. Andyou have a dream. You want to
start something. You want to getyou know, people involved, and
you want to make a difference inthis world and in a certain way.

(31:12):
And there are so many differentoptions. How do you help people?
And how do we know? Hey, whichstep do we take? How do we take
that first step into a smallthing when we know that there
are hundreds of things that wecould do?

Unknown (31:28):
Yeah, you know what I kind of think about when it
comes to that is, I think a lotof us really want the
destination between two pointsto be a to be one, one very
long, like, maybe, like a TexasHighway straight. Nice workshop.
You're gonna like this. We oncedid a workshop in Texas, and one
of the attendees said, the placewhere I'm from, she was actually

(31:50):
from Oklahoma. Place Where I'mfrom in Oklahoma, but we were in
Texas is so flat you could setout on your porch for three days
and watch your dog run away forthree days straight. The place
where I'm from, so flat we couldwatch my dog run away for three
days straight. We want it to belike that. We want it to be just
a to b, no curves, no twist, nowrong turns, no circle and back.
And what I've learned assomebody who grew up in a

(32:12):
trailer, went to Yale for lawschool only to become a wedding
photographer as soon as Igraduated, that's a really
expensive way to become awedding photographer, very
expensive. Did that for 15 plusyears, became a digital course
creator, built an email list.
All of that was, you know,speaker, all of that was
building to being able to haveall that in place, to write a
proposal and do the thing Iwanted to do since I was five,
which was become an author. Sothat's I wanted to do it since I

(32:33):
was five. I wrote my first bookwhen I was 40. So it's a really,
you know, I always say, like thechicks have a song called the
long way around, that if, likemy GPS for my life had an input,
that's what it would be like,the longest, most convoluted way
around. But what I've learned isthat none of it was wasted. None
of it was wasted. The Law Degreecame into play over and over in
our business for contracts andspeaking contracts, the email

(32:56):
list, the speaking experience,the audience, the following we
had as a photographer, is whatpropelled me to be able to get a
book. And so I would say, like,look at all of the things. Find
one that's kind of just excitingyou the most. And like, start
with it. But like, if that thingis there, it might be a piece of
the puzzle you won't fullyunderstand until you go work on
this part over here, there's apart where I really go through,

(33:18):
we have friends over everyChristmas, and we work a puzzle
and sit by the fire and exchangepresents, and there's always
this moment, like an hour or twohours in, when it's just not
we're not making progress. It'sjust not coming together. And
it's like this is never going tocome together. But then it
starts to build momentum throughthat. You know, that idea of
consistency and showing up andputting in the work, that is

(33:42):
what builds momentum, not theother way around. That is what
builds motivation, not the otherway around. And that as you're
putting that puzzle together,you realize this part over here
never would have made sense ifyou hadn't paused to go work on
this part over here first. So Ithink it's making peace with
like, it doesn't have to belinear, and like, you don't win
by getting there in the shortestamount of time you get there.
And all these pieces will noneof it will be wasted. It will

(34:05):
come into play. You just don'tknow how yet. So

Joshua Johnson (34:09):
what's the daily posture to show up in the world
to make some progress and moveforward? But

Unknown (34:14):
in the chair is really kind of the what it boils down
to, right? I have learnedthrough writing three books that
I do my best writing at 930 to1130 every morning, and 430 to
630 every evening. Like just asI think I have nothing left in
me, I always get that secondwindfall right at 430 and then
there's also that, like activerest, that anticipatory rest in
between of taking walks andallowing your limbic brain to do

(34:37):
what your limbic brain does,which is connect dots in a way
they've never been connectedbefore. And the all of it
matters, and the showing upmatters, and like, the work that
you write, I would talk about inthe book about how one of my
least favorite things about meis that the all of my best work
doesn't really show up until I'mreally under a deadline. But,
like, I've also made peace, justlike I just said, with all of

(34:57):
the crappy, you know, right?
Where. That I wrote before, theones that end up on the cutting
room floor, they paved the wayto the good ones and where we're
going. So it's showing up. It'sputting up, you know, putting
your butt in the chair and doingthe work. That's no malaise,

Joshua Johnson (35:12):
no malaise. Put the butt in the chair. Let's
take a walk. Make sure yourlimbic brain works. That's
right. It's really important tobe able to do that all of those
things is exactly what I'vefound in my life. If I actually
just put in the work, show up,be faithful, and then you take
walks like walking is reallyimportant. It's really important

(35:34):
when I don't take a walk like Icould feel it and like my
brain's not working as well, andit's it's it's not good. I have
a strange rabbit trail. And goon right now, I think there's
been a lot of strange ordifferent information about
people from the the mountains ofWest Virginia, from Appalachia.
And so as you grew up there, andyou know the place, you know the

(35:58):
people, what are some thingsthat we as a culture
misunderstand a place and thepeople. And I know it's very
complicated, because there'slots of regions and and all that
stuff, but from your location,what

Unknown (36:14):
do we not? Yeah, I love that. So, so one of the things I
hear from people in Appalachia,if you've ever seen there's a
documentary called hillbilly sonot to be confused with
Hillbilly Elegy. This is anactual documentary. It's created
by Ashley York, and she'sactually from Kentucky, and she
moved to LA to be a director,and she comes back home to
Kentucky, and she's talkingabout a lot of the stuff that

(36:34):
people get wrong about theregion, and she's talking about
time since she's been judged heraccent and things like that. And
one of the things she talksabout in that documentary is
that some of the mostfrustrating things for people
from Appalachia is thateverybody assumes that they are
Scotch Irish descent. Family waseither a logger or a coal miner.
They're probably in a trailer.
They're, you know, trucks up oncinder blocks in the yard.

(36:56):
They're straight animals runningthrough the yard. That everybody
looks like this, that you know,your little kids are running
around barefoot and kind ofdirty. Appalachia is not a
monolith, that it's there are alot of different rich stories
and rich backgrounds there, andthat's so good and so true and
so important. And then also,when I'm writing dirt, which is
a memoir and a true story,unfortunately and fortunately,

(37:17):
my story ends up checking everysingle one of those boxes,
scotch, Irish, logger, cinderblocks, straight animals, the
whole thing. And so my goal withdirt, and my goal every time I
talk about Appalachia is like,I'm going to pull you in with
what you think you already knowabout Appalachia. You know. It's
going to confirm all the thingsyou think you know. So I get you
just close enough to tell youall the things that are going to

(37:39):
surprise you. So one of myfavorite scenes is in dirt, is
I'm talking about my dad and Iwhen I'm a teenager, and we're
really button heads, and he hasme kind of pushed up against the
refrigerator, and he's screamingin my face, and he's saying, you
know, kid, by God, you betterlisten to me. And I talk about,
I can smell his breath, and itsmells like Dr Pepper, and
that's a bait and a switch,because I know what you're

(37:59):
thinking like. I know thatyou're expecting him to also be
this alcoholic, because thatchecks another box of what you
know about the region, or, youknow, drug addict or whatever.
And so I'm my whole goal withwriting that story was, you're
going to think of this place inblack and white, and I'm going
to show you all the shades ofgray in between. So I know them
as a place where they will giveyou the literal shirt off your
back. I remember a man whoworked for my dad as a logger.

(38:22):
His their trailer burned down,and we went there and literally
gave them a bunch of ourclothes, including my dad, like
taking his flannel shirt andgiving it to him. And also, we
are incredibly proud, strong,stoic people who will help you,
but we do not want to have toask for help, right? And that's
carried through in my adultlife. We have an incredible work
ethic, we have an incrediblegrit, but we also really

(38:44):
struggle with more, becausethere's an inherent belief that
more means your downfall. Thereare good people or there are
rich people, and the two are notthe same. It's something I heard
my dad say growing up. So that'snot to speak for all Appalachia,
but for my family and for myregion, that's something that's
all so, yeah, it's, it's,there's, there's lots of gray
there, and it's a, it's abeautiful place, and it's a

(39:04):
place that's worth getting closeenough to see those shades,

Joshua Johnson (39:08):
lots of shades of gray. And I think that
actually goes into someunderestimated and your book
that we talk about the gray andthe path that we could move
through that things aren't justblack and white. And when you
think about beingunderestimated, that you feel
like you're small, you feellike, okay, this is a black and

(39:28):
white thing, like I'm in thisplace. I could never get to that
place, because it's somethingtotally different. How does that
help shift and shape ourthinking? If we move from black
and white thinking to Shades ofGray, that there are some twists
and turns, and it's not linear.
But how does that help ourbrains to move us in a direction

(39:49):
where we could get over all ofthis?

Unknown (39:54):
Yeah, yeah. What that reminded me of is something that
I also always heard my dad say,not about my life, but. Out his
you know, he would always belike, you're going to college.
You're gonna go do whatever youwant. You mean whatever you want
to be for himself, because I heloves history, and I'm like, why
don't you go to college forhistory? He would have loved to
go to college, but it was neveran option for him. He started
working in the woods when he was12, and so I would say, like,

(40:15):
why don't you go do this? Or,like, why don't we do this for
the business? I think it couldreally help. And he would just,
there was just an immediaterejection. And he would always
say, kid, let me tell you, thisis the way it is. This is the
way it was. This is the way italways will be. So this very
sort of fatalistic fixedmindset. And when we talk about
fixed versus growth mindset bytalking underestimated, about a

(40:35):
study that was done where theyactually had people look at
mistakes that they had made on atest, and the growth mindset
people, parts of their brain,started lighting up because they
were learning from the mistakesand the fixed mindset. People,
no lighting up. This is the wayit is. This is the way it was.
This is the way it always willbe. And so in in a chapter on

(40:57):
failure, failure is wired rightinto our DNA, I talk about how
we can really start to feel likewhatever our parents were, like,
whatever our family tree was,like we inherited that. If they
were bad with money, we'reprobably always going to be bad
with money. If they there was adivorce in our formative years,
we're probably not going to havea good marriage either. And it
can become this verydeterministic way of seeing your

(41:18):
life. And the fact of the matteris, we get to start new every
morning. We get to create withour words and our actions and
our habits and our consistencyand so really, just switching
from, like, fixed mindset, thisis the limit on my life. This is
all like, this is all it was,all it was, is was, and ever
will be to, you know, anythingis possible, you know. I mean,

(41:40):
I'm not going to be in the NBA,probably. But aside from that,
there's a lot that's possible.
And I think the more you get towitness this is the cool thing
about how momentum and likeconsistency compound over time.
The more you get to witnessthings that are first in your
family tree, the more you havethis kind of track record, this
evidence to the contrary, tosay, Well, that was a first, and

(42:00):
that was a first, and we'vealready broken that in our tree,
so maybe more is possible.

Joshua Johnson (42:06):
I worked with a with Syrian refugees in the
Middle East. A lot of ArabMuslims are fatalistic, like the
fatalism is a big part of theirculture, just God has willed it,
right? That has already beenwilled. So anything bad
happened? God has willed it. Wecan't really step forward when
people are in that fixedmindset, like, this is the way

(42:27):
it is, and we can't really doanything about it. What's a good
step, like, first step thatcould help people move past that
mindset? Well, I

Unknown (42:36):
have, I have to, like, really give that question a
second, because I have watchedmy dad stay pretty stuck in that
mindset despite my best efforts.
So I do want to give it thehonor to say it's probably not a
quick overnight fix, and italways has to be an inside
decision. You know, that personhas to make that choice. But one
of the things that we talkedabout, I mentioned that evidence

(42:57):
to the contrary. Earlier, I wentto college on a debate
scholarship. And so one of thethings we would do is we would
carry around like we wouldliterally have moving dollies of
these, like four bins, blueplastic bins stacked tall, just
sheets and sheets and sheets,1000s of sheets of loose leaf
paper filled with our bestevidence to the contrary. And so
a huge backbone of this entirebook is that every day, when we

(43:21):
are making those small butimportant commitments to
ourselves and actually keepingthem being the grown up in the
room who can be trusted, thatgrown up as you, we are proving
to ourselves over and over andover that we're becoming a new
thing, that I'm not the sameperson that I was. I'm about to
be 45 in May, so I'm not thesame person at 45 that I was at
35 that I was at 25 that it wasat 15, that it was at 15, that I

(43:41):
was at five, and thank God forthat. And so we have to ask
ourselves, what when we'resaying nothing's going to
change, like, what's the what'sthe opposite? The opposite is to
say, this is how it is for thenext 50 years of our lives. We
either get to choose, I will begrowing until the day I take my
last breath, I say, I alwayssay, all the time, or my
deathbed, I'm gonna be like,hold on. Write this down one

(44:03):
more sentence. We either get tobe that person or we are the
person today. This is it for thenext, next 50 years. When you
put it like that, it's like,pretty easy to decide.

Joshua Johnson (44:14):
I think it's pretty easy to decide, I don't
wanna be stuck in the same placefor 50 years. Mary, if you could
talk to your readers and pick upunderestimated. What hope do you
have for your readers?

Unknown (44:24):
I honestly, I cannot, like underscored enough in my
heart of hearts, the thing thatdid, like I was saying, push me
through 12 hour days, 12 monthsout of 2024, getting this thing
down on the paper. You know, onpaper. I fully, in my whole
heart, believe that if you pickup this book, read it in
chronological order. Don't justflip to the chapter you think

(44:45):
you need. You can do that afteryou read it once, because the
way I teach is very like we'relaying a foundation, and then
we're going to build on that.
We're going to build on that,we're going to build on that. So
if you will follow the arc oftransformation of this book that
I very carefully andthoughtfully put out for you, it
is my 100% worth. In my deepestheart, I believe this has the
power to change your familytree, because you're already
doing it. You already know thatit ends with you. You've already

(45:06):
come so far. Maybe you were thefirst to go to college, the
first to own a home like you.
You're going to parentdifferently, whatever the case
is, but you have just likeyou've hit that ceiling, and
like I 100% believe that whenthose people get set free. They
are the people who are going tochange the world. So I'm not
even like remotely willing toput a limit on what could happen
from the people who had the kindones, the quiet ones, the ones

(45:29):
who often overlooked. When thosepeople get the courage to show
up, I think it could change thewhole world. The whole

Joshua Johnson (45:35):
world, Amen. Go for it. Go for it. That's that.
Don't put limits on yourself.
Just go. That's right, do it,Mary, if you go back to your 21
year old self, what advice wouldyou give? Don't

Unknown (45:46):
drink the gold stalker.
Listen, the 21 birthday was, wasa rough one. That's probably not
appropriate, but that's okay.
That's Well, listen, I like Isaid, I'm not the same person I
was then, no, I the 21 year oldwhat I was. Would say to her is,
you're going to spend twodecades of your life thinking
that you can earn your way intoother people's approval, into

(46:09):
belonging to an arrival pointand to an invite to the table
and a tap on the shoulder and atap on the forehead, that will
finally make you feel like youbelong. And it just doesn't work
that way. It just doesn't workthat way. I can tell you that I
have been at the highest of thehighs, and people still
overlooked me. So we stopchasing that outward approval,
that outward validation, thatoutward belonging. We start

(46:30):
belonging to ourselves, and westart belonging to a version of
us that God had in mind allalong. And we continue to let
him shape us and reshape us intothe vessel that can be poured
out for others. And if you canjust let go, That man is gonna
save you a lot of frustrationand heartbreak and ranting to
your husband about why peopletreat you this way, and all of
that energy can be used forbetter things. So

Joshua Johnson (46:49):
good. That's so helpful. I think, man, if
everybody could take thatadvice, the world would look a
totally different place. Itwould be amazing. Anything
you've been reading or watchinglately recommend, oh gosh,

Unknown (47:02):
you know what? I gotta I gotta watch more life giving
stuff when I'm doing theseinterviews. Because I'm gonna
tell you the real answer.
Because we are like that rightnow. We're friends. We're
watching The Handmaid's Tale,and it's not life giving at all.
It's good, really, not It'sscary. It's good and it's scary.
But, yeah, yeah.
But I will tell you that. Here'smy life giving answer. I just
heard that Kane the band had,they did a tease of a new song

(47:24):
that came out, and it was justtalking about, like, my god,
will not be defeated. And itreally, it was just like they
played, like, a one minute clipof the master, and I just, I'm
like, counting down the daystill they release this whole
thing. So that one's a much morelife giving answer than those.
That's how I operate. It'shandmaid's Taylor that,

Joshua Johnson (47:42):
all right. Well, we need some some prescient,
prophetic TV that's a littlescary and really, really good.
And then we do need to be rootedin the place where we know that,
hey, God's not going to bedefeated, and it's with us. So
that's so good. That's great.
How can people go out getunderestimated? Where would you
like to point people to?

(48:04):
Anywhere else you'd like topoint people to?

Unknown (48:06):
I got two fun places for them to check out. Actually,
I mentioned that illusionist inthe distance earlier, and that
is actually one of five types ofpeople who kind of get stuck
playing small that I talk aboutin the book. And we put together
a quiz where it kind of goesthrough 10 questions to ask you
what your type is, what your wecall it the achiever quiz. And
so there's the performer who'salways on their toes, wants to

(48:26):
show themselves and other peoplehow far they've come. The
tightrope walker doesn't carewho's clapping, but they need
higher and higher death defyingheights to feel the same amount
of good. The masquerader hidesin plain sight and shoves
somebody else into thespotlight. The Contortionist is
our classic people pleaser, whocontorts because it's easier
than to be criticized. And theillusionist in the distance is
waiting on themselves and allthe conditions to be perfect
before they can even begin. Andyou can find that at achiever

(48:47):
quiz.com or marymoreans.com/quizmy last name is M, A, R, a, n,
t, z.com, it takes two minutesto take we are, as you've
probably gotten from thisepisode, we are fun on the
questions and deep on theresults. I'll tell you why you
get stuck playing small and howyou move forward for each of
your types. And then if you goto name the fear.com we actually
have the whole first chapter ofunderestimated up there for

(49:09):
free. You can grab it and startreading today if you want to go
ahead and pre order the book,because pre orders are huge,
huge, huge for books ofexcellence, books of authors who
are newer. It tells stories toactually stock this book, it's
kind of the make or break. Ifyou pre order, we have the whole
first three chapters availablefor you and the audio book. So
it's like getting two books forthe price of one. And if you'd

(49:30):
like to listen to me wax poeticover the last hour, then you're
gonna love the audio book,because I read it, and that's
it. Name the fear.com, and thenyou can find me on Instagram at
Mary Marantz. Tell me what youthought of the episode or what
you're or what your achievertype is. I think you should take
it, Joshua, I should make it. Ibet you're a tightrope walker,
if

Joshua Johnson (49:48):
I had to guess.
Okay, well, we will see. I'lltake it. I'll let you know.
Okay, Mary, thank you for thisconversation. I really enjoyed
talking to you. It was a lot offun, and we went deep into. A
place where we know that fear isa boring liar, that we have all
sorts of different fears andtypes of fear that we struggle
to get over, but we can. Wedon't need to underestimate

(50:12):
ourselves in the midst of whatwe're doing, what we're called
to, that we could say that thereis this calling, there's
something inside us that won'tlet go, that we could actually
take small steps to get there,and when we do, make sure that
we have small things, and whensmall things happen, we get big
results at the end when we dothe little things, right? So,

(50:33):
well done. This is fantastic. Ilove this conversation. Thank
you so much. Thank you. You.