Andrew Arndt is back on the podcast today. He’s a pastor and author who's challenging how we typically understand the gospel. His new book, "A Strange and Gracious Light," explores what it means to see Jesus as a living presence that intersects with our real, complicated lives. We'll discuss how the gospel isn't just about personal salvation or afterlife insurance, but a transformative story that speaks directly into our current cultural moment - with all its complexity, pain, and potential. Andrew brings a fresh, albeit an ancient perspective on how Jesus encounters us in our everyday struggles, political tensions, and personal challenges. This conversation is about reimagining the good news of Jesus as something far more expansive and immediate than we've traditionally understood. We'll explore what it means to experience Christ's presence in a way that's both deeply personal and broadly transformative. So join us as we facilitate encounters with the living God.
Andrew Arndt is the Lead Pastor of New Life East (one of seven congregations of New Life Church in Colorado Springs), where he also hosts the Essential Church podcast, a weekly conversation designed to strengthen the thinking of church and ministry leaders. Prior to joining New Life’s team, he served as Lead Pastor of Bloom Church: a neo-monastic, charismatic, liturgical, justice-driven network of house churches in Denver. He received his MDiv from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, is working on his Doctor of Ministry at Western Theological Seminary, and has written for Missio Alliance, Patheos, The Other Journal, and Mere Orthodoxy. He lives in the Springs with his wife Mandi and their four kids.
Andrew's Book:
Subscribe to Our Substack: Shifting Culture
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
Go to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.
Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTube
Consider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andrew Arndt (00:00):
Paul says it's like weakness is where the
(00:01):
strength of God is completed. Sothat might actually be the way
in which we see the power of Godbegin to rush again into our
culture. When we stop trying tocoerce the culture into being
the way that we want it to besaid, we show up again as
heralds, ambassadors of the goodnews of the glory of God.
Unknown (00:22):
I Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ. Look like Jesus. I'myour host. Joshua Johnson,
Andrew Arndt is back on thepodcast today. He's a pastor and
(00:45):
author who's challenging how wetypically understand the gospel.
His new book, a strange andgracious light, explores what it
means to see Jesus as a livingpresence that intersects with
our real, complicated lives,we'll discuss how the gospel
isn't just about personalsalvation or afterlife
insurance, but a transformativestory that speaks directly into
(01:07):
our current cultural moment withall its complexity and pain and
potential, Andrew brings thatfresh, albeit an ancient,
perspective on how Jesusencounters us in our everyday
struggles, political tensionsand personal challenges. This
conversation is about reimagining the good news of Jesus
as something far more expansiveand immediate than we've
(01:29):
traditionally understood. We'llexplore what it means to
experience Christ's presence ina way that's both deeply
personal and broadlytransformative. So join us as we
facilitate encounters with theliving God. Here's my
conversation with Andrew Arndt,Andrew, welcome back to shifting
culture. So excited to have youback on. Thanks for joining me.
(01:51):
Oh man, so good to be here.
Thanks, Joshua, it's been twoand a half years since you've
been on. It doesn't feel thatlong, but it has been that long.
Think back last two and a halfyears, and think of God
encounters. What's happened?
Where has God encountered you?
Wow, in the writing space, inthe life space, and pastoring in
(02:12):
your life. Like and think, thinkof a god encounter. Think of
something where, like this is, Ifeel the presence of God in a
tangible way, wow. Well, by two
Andrew Arndt (02:24):
and a half years.
I mean, where Haven't weencountered the presence of God
in two and a half years? I igotta tell you, Joshua, I think
when I started out in my journeyof faith, I would kind of like
read the Psalms, and you wouldsee those moments when I was
like the psalmist was cryingout, oh, God, deliver me, and
the Lord would deliver and Ithink I kind of thought, Okay,
(02:47):
so that's a thing that canhappen, you know, like you can
get in trouble and you cry outto the Lord that you'll come
through on your behalf. Butsurely that only happens once in
a while, right? That that wasthe exceptional circumstance,
and maybe I'm the only one inthe room, but I think I'm coming
to learn that, oh, God, save me,the waters come up in my neck is
(03:07):
not the exceptionalcircumstance. It's sort of like
the daily bread of ourexistence. So I can't, I can't
think of a week in the last twoand a half years where I haven't
had some moment where my backwas wasn't up against the wall,
and I was going, oh geez, Idon't Okay, like I, I'm pretty
sure I'm at the end of what Ican do humanly. I'm going to
(03:28):
need God here. And I think as Ithink as I'm learning to trust
in that more that's making lifemore joyful for me. So I'm, I'm
I'm finding myself going, well,that's okay. That's the thing.
That's the thing that happens.
And in this, in this life, we'reconstantly going to come up
(03:48):
against places that are thelimit of what we can accomplish
humanly. And that's what Godwhich is what Paul says he's
like, the power of God is notperfected in human power. The
power of God is protected inhuman weakness. So how about you
just plan on showing up in life,in life, and all of these places
where it's just, you don't, youdon't have enough, and God's
gonna have to come through andand the surprises of the Spirit,
(04:10):
you know, are like normal foryou, and not the exception to
the rule. So I don't know, and Iyou know, in church leadership,
you experience it all the time.
And we were just talking offlineabout some stuff that we've been
walking through as a church.
And, you know, few weeks backgoes, I can think of three or
four rooms I was in where theconversation felt really high
(04:31):
stakes, and it was like, I, Iwant to be able to control the
outcome here. And I kind ofthink for the good of the
church, I might need to be ableto I, it would be good for me to
control the outcome, but I'm notin control of the outcome, and
all I can do is show up with thetruth and with my vulnerable
heart and put it in the hands ofthe Spirit and trust the Lord
for a miracle. And you know youask like, where did you sense
(04:52):
the spirit tangibly in thoserooms? I watched sea changes in
the feeling of the room happen.
So yeah, man, it's not, that'snot where have you. It's like
we're having to,
Unknown (05:04):
yeah, it's all the time, man, it's all the time.
We're opening up. We'revulnerable. You get to the end
of yourself constantly, andthat's where God shows up and he
he meets you in those spaces. Ithink that's what I love about
your your bug, strange andgracious light is that it opens
up the gospel for us, that it'snot just a get out of hell free
(05:28):
card, but it is more like thegospel is good news for all our
life and the really difficultvalleys and struggles that we
have, and even the mountaintopmoments like he's there and it's
good news. And so can youreframe a little bit the gospel
(05:48):
for us? What, what's a typical,say, evangelical message of what
we may have heard, what thegospel is, and what are you
trying to open up for us, of howgospel is? Yeah, thanks. I,
Andrew Arndt (06:02):
you know, I'm, I'm born and raised in this
movement. So I'm, I'm, I'm partof the evangelical movement,
Pentecostal, charismatic tribe.
That's kind of where I camefrom. And so our burdens and
talking about the gospel havelargely been the same, and I
think that the way that I'vecome to understand the way that
we understood the gospel, andthe way that a lot of
(06:24):
Evangelicals understand thegospel is that it primarily
concerns your inner life, youknow, so something called your
spirit or your soul, and whetherthat's reconciled, whether
you're at peace with God, andthen the afterlife, where you're
going to spend eternity. Andboth of those things are
incredibly important, you know,so whether we have peace with
God and and what the afterlifeis going to look like for us,
(06:46):
those are not small pieces ofthe puzzle, but if those are the
only pieces of the gospel puzzlefor us, then I think we're
missing the broader scope ofwhat the gospel is. And as a
result of that, when we thoughtthought about, you know, the
inner life and the afterlife,mostly, I think we kind of
thought of the gospel as it'sthe death and resurrection of
Jesus, and so that's kind oflike, that's the good news part
(07:06):
of the life of Jesus, and thatconcerns mainly those things
that we just talked about. And Ithink that a practical effect of
that is that we don't reallyknow what to do with the rest of
the Bible, most of it feels likePrelude, and then just kind of
the afterward. And we don't knowwhat to do with most of the life
of Jesus. It just kind of feelslike, can we get on with death
(07:28):
and resurrection? And I justthink that that's not right.
There's no reason that theevangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke
and John, are recording all ofthese details in the life of
Jesus leading up to the passion.
You know, here we are talkingduring Holy Week. And there's a
reason that subsequentgeneration of Christians sought
(07:49):
to collect all of these bookstogether, including the Old
Testament, to say, No, this isthis is good news for us. So
what I'm kind of a quote thatbecomes a pivotal quote for me
in the book, is Robert Jenson'sgreat mind, the late Lutheran
theologian, who said that thegospel is the story of Jesus
told as a promise, and so it'snot just one piece, but it's the
whole thing. And I think whathappens if, if, if gospel is
(08:14):
just inner life and afterlife,is that it leaves most of our
actual life untouched by thegoodness of the Lord. But if we,
if we can say no, it's the wholestory of Jesus, all of that is
actually gospel from Preludeeverything before the Gospels to
the Incarnation, all the waythrough not only his
resurrection, but his ascensionin the pouring out of the Holy
(08:35):
Spirit, and his return again andglory to judge the living the
dead, what happens in our wholelife is embraced by the goodness
of the Lord, and we see ourwhole life as something that's
capable of being transfigured bythe Divine, by the divine
goodness and glory. So that's Ifeel like. That's what I've been
trying to do for 20 years ofministry. And this book kind of
(08:55):
gave me, gave me an excuse totake a whack at it and just sort
of like, say it as clearly as Ican say it. You know, if you
Unknown (09:02):
think about the gospel as interacting with all of our
life, it's like it's a beautifulthing, like life of Jesus. I
think a lot of people in thelast 510, years have felt really
unmoored. They think thatthey've believed this gospel.
It's just about the afterlife.
It's just about my interiorlife. Since we've gone through
really difficult times in thelast five years, people are go
(09:27):
well, doesn't really haveanything to do with my life. So
why am I following this? Jesus,what am I doing in the midst of
of those, those hard, difficulttimes when everything seems to
be falling apart, How Is theregood news, like, how does Jesus
show up as good news when all Isee around me is destruction?
Andrew Arndt (09:50):
Wow. I mean, what a question. And I think I think
that's hard to I think thatthat's always hard to answer in
any kind of a super broad way.
Right, other than by saying, butall of it is subject to
redemption, all of it. He'sconcerned about all of it. He
reigns over. I think where itgets really fun is where we're
working in congregational life,and we're watching specifically
(10:13):
how these trends, you know, youtalk about, the last five years,
we live through a globalpandemic. We have wars raging
all over the world, so Israeland Palestine and the Ukraine.
We have an economy that's tipsyturvy. We have all this
political and social chaosthat's constantly fomenting. And
you know, I mean, at the barestpossible level, the Gospel isn't
(10:35):
what you can be reconciled toGod and go with go to heaven
when you die, the bear ispossible. I mean, like the early
church, gospel is, well, Jesusis Lord, and so that's what you
can say overall, that Jesus isLord, Jesus. Jesus knows. Jesus
knows what's going on withglobal pandemics, and Jesus is
in charge of that. You know,Jesus is in charge of the wind
and the waves of social andpolitical chaos and and he's not
(10:58):
just, he doesn't just have aplan for bringing that to a
place of peace, but also he'sworking in all of that somehow
to bring us where he wants us togo. Then Jesus is Lord in Israel
and Palestine, and Jesus is Lordin the Ukraine, like he's Lord
over all of that. And we canread, we can read the prophets,
and we can see the fomenting ofthe nations and how God is at
work and all of that. So, like,there's real broad thing. But I
(11:20):
think what I love doing as apastor is meeting people at the
individual level and findingjust where that anxiety point
is, just where that point offear is. And what you're trying
to do is you're not trying toexplain away what people are
feeling. You're trying toannounce the presence of Christ
to it. And it's astonishing tome. You know that, like when
(11:40):
Jesus, the resurrected one,shows up with his disciples, he
doesn't try to explain awaytheir anxieties and fears, he
just kind of offers them thegift of His presence, and he's
like peace, be with you, youknow. And he breathes on them
and says, receive the HolySpirit. And then He blesses
them, and he says, Lo, I'm withyou always to the very end of
(12:01):
the age. So I don't know, how dowe announce the good news to
people in the midst of all ofthis stuff? I think we might
just say, you know that theincarnation is true, that God
has come to dwell among us, thatJesus is present with us, and we
don't have to wait for the worldto burn to eventually see the
glory of the Lord. We can seethe glory of the Lord revealed
(12:22):
in our midst now, and I, as apreacher, I just think that
that's my job, is to say thatweek after week to people who
feel like their life is comingapart at the seeds to be like,
Jesus is Lord, and he's with us,and you could be okay, you know.
Unknown (12:38):
And sometimes we have to, we have to speak that to
ourselves so that we cancontinue to move on and to be
with people when we are like,Hey. I mean, I believe it
intellectually, I just don'tfeel it right now.
Andrew Arndt (12:52):
Well, there's no doubt about no doubt about that.
How can we offer the consolationof the Lord unless we're
experiencing ourselves, youknow? So I agree with that. I
The Gospel must be preached tothe preacher, to the leader,
over and over again. We got tokeep meeting the resurrected
one. Yeah. So if you have havesomebody say, you know, in your
book, you talk about a story ofa woman dying of cancer there,
(13:13):
so as a pastor, or somebody thatactually then announces that God
is with you, how do you, how doyou continue in that work? How
do you, how do you do this? Whenyou do see this stuff happening
and go, Man, maybe the miracleof healing right now, it's not
going to happen, and maybe it'sjust presence is, yeah, well,
(13:35):
that's, that's the cool thingabout it, is that I think this,
again, the story of Jesus givesyou a way to speak the gospel,
speak good news to people at somany different dimensions. So
for instance, with this womanthat you're talking about,
because we believe that, again,the gospel is the story of Jesus
told us the promise. One of thethings that we see in the
Gospels is that Jesus is ahealer. He just is. And there's
(13:57):
never a time that anybody comesto Jesus and says, I need
healing, that Jesus goes, youknow, I just don't know if it's
God's will for you to be healed.
Like that just never happens.
That's how we talk, you know,I'm just not really sure about
healing, but that's not, that'snot how Jesus talks. So it is
the absolute will of God thathuman beings should be healed,
(14:18):
thing that we don't know. And weknow we understand this, because
we live in the time in between,the times where the kingdom is,
it's it's already, but it's notyet, because when exactly that
healing is going to take place,does that happen in this like on
this side of that or are wereally just talking about the
raising up of that person beyondthe boundary of death? Which is
that final healing? I don't knowthe answer that question, and I
(14:39):
don't have to know my job is toannounce the presence of Christ
to that person. So when I'msitting by the bedside of the
person who's dying of cancer,you better believe I'm praying
for healing, because that's partof the story. And I'm not going,
Lord, if it's your will, I am. Iam getting my hands smudgy with
oil, and I'm smacking it on thatperson's head, and I'm calling.
(15:00):
Upon the presence of life givingspirit to come and raise that
person up. So that's one part ofit. But when we come to that
point where it's very clear thatlife is ebbing away, we also
know that Jesus is our companionin death, and so he's not just
it's not a failure of the gospelthat this person didn't get
healed. Jesus has actually takenthem in that sense of
(15:21):
abandonment that accompanies theexperience with death. And he's
holding them, and he's escortingthem through to the other side,
bringing them right through toresurrection life. So I don't
see how you can lose and that'swhat the story of Jesus gives
you. You know, is like theability to speak fully and
completely about the goodness ofthe Lord to all of the
dimensions of human experiencewithout feeling like you need to
(15:42):
like it's not balancing. I'm nottrying to balance it, which we
can have full volume on all ofthe things, which is, I think
what we're supposed to do. We
Unknown (15:51):
were sitting in church yesterday, but we were in home
church yesterday, so we weretalking about the triumphal
entry, and we were comparing itto Ephesians two as well, and
going back and forth, which isfun, but one of the things that
we were talking about was howthe church often makes these
types of church calendar typeevents as sanitized versions of
(16:13):
what they actually were, that ifyou look at what what's
happening, there's all sorts ofof chaos, Like we're continuing
to read and like Jesus isweeping over Jerusalem. He's
throwing over over tables likein the temple, like he's, he's
confronting people in a way thatyou know that he's going to be
put to death for because he's.
He's speaking clearly andplainly and but we usually
(16:35):
sanitize it. Yeah, so just talkthrough then congregational
life, Pastor life, like even thechurch calendar, is you're
you're talking through yourbook, through the church
calendar. How do we open upwhat's there and what it looks
like? So it's not just asanitized version that go, oh,
(16:55):
that's a nice little you know?
Yeah, worry, yeah. It doesn'treally impact our life, but it
actually does. Well, reallygetting
Andrew Arndt (17:07):
such a great that's a such a great question.
Joshua, because, you know, so Igrew up in church. I'm going on
44 years old, so I was, I wascoming of age during the
flanagraph days. Man, yeah,these stories can be slow. And
for any of your podcastlisteners that don't know what
that is, just Google it. Figureit out. But for any you know,
(17:29):
these stories can be selfflanographed that they get
flatten out. And I thinkwhenever they get flattened out,
they lose their bite. So youasked the question about like,
how can preachers, like, unlockthe power of the gospel in the
church? Well, I think that theway that we do that is by paying
attention, not just to kind ofthe broad contours of the story,
(17:50):
though, certainly that, but youalso want to pay attention to
the details of the story,because it's in so many of the
small details of the story thatthe Lord is needling us into
salvation. So I'll give you likeone example from a text that I
preached this past weekend. AndI didn't actually touch this
piece of the text, but this isan important point. It could
(18:11):
have certainly been made gooduse of for preaching, because
the triumphal entry happens, youknow, this is Passover time.
Jerusalem is normally 35,000 orso people, you know. But at
Passover time, scholars tell usthat it swells to 250 or so,
250,000 or so pilgrims, andmaybe more, coming from the four
corners of the Roman Empire toworship. And so you have Jesus.
(18:34):
Here is this Jesus entering intoJerusalem on a donkey. He
actually is. You would come intolike the kings of Israel. You
would go out on a war horse, butwhen you won the battle, you'd
come in on the donkey, and sothat's like, your reign is
secured. So this is like amassive political statement he's
making. So he comes in toJerusalem, and what Matthew says
is the whole city was stirred.
And that word stirred is theGreek word a size today, where
(18:57):
we get seismic from. It was anearthquake. It shook the city to
its core. And everybody says,Who is this? And they say, this
is Jesus, the prophet, fromNazareth in Galilee, which may
not mean a lot to us, butNazareth in Galilee would be
like this. It's the equivalentof a bunch of New Yorkers
(19:18):
having, you know, everybody'sgathered together for a big
party, and word gets out thatsomebody is running for mayor,
and they think that they'vealready won. And this is a
person who comes from a podunktown outside of Dallas Fort
Worth. Can you imagine how theNew Yorkers would freak out at
that? Who does this person thinkthat they, they are this Texan
(19:40):
is going to come in here and tryto be our boss and tell us what
to do. Some people would beexcited. Most people would be
kind of ticked off about it,because there's like, there is
like, some prejudice there,right? There's like, social gap,
there's, there's, there's socialdistance between the two things.
And that's actually a key themeof math. Matthews that he's
trying to draw out. He's tryingto show that there really is,
(20:02):
like, some ethnic despising.
There is like some some kind ofpride and superiority going on
in sort of the religious elitesof Jerusalem. So when somebody
says that somebody from Nazarethin Galilee is coming in to be
king, what's happening is thatkind of, like, uh, ethnocentrism
would be what one way of sayingit, but that's getting flushed
out into the open so that it canbe dealt with. And I think that
(20:25):
wise preachers and leaders inthe church will pay attention to
the details of the story likethat, because those details
unlock what God is trying to dofor us. I think that's
Unknown (20:34):
helpful. We could do this. We could unlock something.
We could open things up in a waywhere it actually it touches us,
and we don't have to sanitizeit. It's Yep, Jesus enters into
a messy, messy place. Yes, andour world is messy, and if it
doesn't touch the messiness,then you know what good is it?
This is what he's called us to.
You know the thing in your inyour chapter around Christmas
(20:58):
about encounters with Jesus, Ithink the encounter is a space
where I think everythingchanges, like, because I've had,
like, real specific encounters,like, like, you having an
encounter when you're holdingyour baby first time and God is
speaking to you in that Andyou're weeping over your baby.
(21:20):
It's, it's a beautifulencounter, right? And you know
what? What happens is that whenyou're in a difficult time, you
could look back on thatencounter like, Oh, God is with
me. Like, I've, I've sensed hispresence. I know he's there. How
could we start to facilitatesome of these encounters with
Jesus for people, so that theyencounter the living Christ in
(21:42):
their day to day that reallysustains them through a life of
faith to move them forward.
Andrew Arndt (21:50):
Wow. You know, that's a that's a great
question. Facilitate is just theright word, isn't it? We can't
make it happen for people, butwhat we can maybe do is set up
circumstances where they couldsense the presence of the Lord.
And I think as, I think aschurch leaders in particular, so
(22:13):
whether we're leading smallgroups or church services or one
on one counseling, whatever itis, I just think that this is
our stock and trade, like whatwe do is we try, like we're
trying to live attuned to thepresence of God, so that we can
bring a sense of the presence ofGod into all of the spaces that
we lead. And if in ourleadership, we're helping people
(22:35):
attune themselves to thepresence of God in that space,
then I think that is a trainingfor them to begin to see the
presence of God in all of life.
You know, the worst casescenario for us is that people
think that church services orreligious activities are
fundamental sacredness, andeverything else is not sacred.
But I think about the poetWendell Berry, who said that
there are no sacred places andunsacred places. There are only
(22:57):
sacred places and desecratedplaces. And so what should
happen when we come intosacredness is that we are we
have our eyes open to see howall of life is sacred, and then
we become the kind of peoplethat can spot the presence of
God. So I think as as likeleaders in the church, I think
that we can help people withthat. But I also think even if
(23:18):
we're not leaders in the church.
I just think that having anawareness of sacredness, having
an awareness of a depth ofpresence, the presence of Christ
in all things, can really helpus. And so that boils down to
simple things like the way inwhich we, I don't know, engage
our neighbors and our coworkers. Do we engage them as
though we're in a hurry, asthough there's something more
(23:39):
important than them, or when thedivine interruption of their
need or their life comes along,do we take that seriously as an
encounter with the Lord? And ifwe do, I think it'll help them
connect with the presence ofGod. So can we live lives that
are driven along by a sense ofthe holy depth at the heart of
(23:59):
all life, you know, and if wecan't do it, I don't I don't
know who else is going to do it.
And I think that's what it meansto be a people of the
Incarnation. So we don't justbelieve that God hallowed, I
think I quote Athanasius in thatchapter to this effect. But we
don't just believe that Godhallowed one body, the body of
Jesus, but because he is thehallowed and hallowing presence
(24:19):
of God when He comes among us,the whole city, the cosmos, has
been honored. So what we'redoing, then again, is we're
announcing the presence ofChrist too, and discerning the
depth of Christ in all things.
And that's that's our uniquevocation as Christians.
Unknown (24:35):
So, yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people, especially in
the last you know, five yearswhen everything's hit the fan,
people go, Hey, I don't know ifI really like the church, like
the congregational life, but Ilove Jesus, and I want, I want
Jesus, but I I really there'ssomething that we we miss if we
(24:57):
don't have the congregation, ifwe don't. Have the body of
Christ, right? Yeah, yeah. So ifyou're talking to somebody that
is in that position, go, man,I've, I've seen the the church
perpetrate things that haven'tbeen healthy. But what is the
good news of of the Body ofChrist? What's the good news of
(25:18):
the congregation? Why should webe with one another?
Andrew Arndt (25:23):
I mean, the simplest answer to that is that
God reveals Himself in Scriptureas a God who's never without a
people. And so you do haveindividuals in the scriptures
that have individual encounterswith God, but that individual
encounter with God is always inthe service of the whole it's
(25:43):
always in the service of thepeople. So, you know, Abraham's
encounter with God. God's like,there's a family. I'm going to
build a family. Moses encounterwith God on mountaintop. He's
like, there are these people. Gorescue them. Elijah on the
mountaintop. I've reserved 7000year instruction, so we're
always getting thrust back intothe world of people. I that's
maybe the most obvious answer.
And I think the second mostobvious answer is just that
we're commanded to, and Godpromises that his presence is
(26:06):
going to be among these peoplewhile I'm with, not just you
individually, I'm with y'allalways to the very end of the
age. So for all of its flaws,and they are many, we are told
in the scriptures that there'sthis peculiar density of
presence that happens among thepeople of God, that if we'll
stay with them, we'll keepbumping into Jesus. And I don't
(26:28):
know how else to answer thatquestion for me personally,
except just to say, you know, II guess I bump into Jesus more
routinely among the people ofGod than I do when I just kind
of on my own. And it is nice.
I'm an introvert by nature, andI nature, and I love being on my
own and out and all that stuff.
But I see miracles when I'm withthe people of God. I do think
(26:49):
that for the person that thenkind of burned out on it, I
think that some of thesometimes, sometimes the reason
that we get burned out on it isbecause we have churches that
are either trying to impress us,or they don't take God very
seriously, you know what I mean?
So they're trying to impress us,so it's just like, it's like a
rock concert with a TED talk. Ican't do that anymore, or they
(27:12):
don't take God seriouslyanymore. And that can take a lot
of different forms. The rockconcert thing, I think, can be
one piece of that, but also inthese churches that are so given
over to traditionalism that theliving presence of God has
leaked out. They're just kind ofgoing through the religious
rigmarole, and that can reallywear the spirit out. So I think
for those people that arefeeling exiled at the moment
(27:33):
from church and they're not surewhere to land, I don't have any
awesome advice for you, otherthan go to a go to a church that
you know that believes thehistorical gospel as much as
anybody can. You know that hecame among you. Christ came
among us, and God, he was raisedto life again. He's come again.
(27:54):
And they and they take the Bibleseriously. But try to be among a
people that are not trying toimpress you. Try to be among the
people that you feel like aretaking God really seriously, and
chances are, you're going tobump into Jesus pretty
frequently among those people.
But if they're not doing thosethings, I don't know, move on to
the next one. There's, there'senough, there's enough churches
that you can afford to be choosyfor just a second, because a
(28:15):
decision like this does matter,you know, and I don't want
people to be church shoppers orhopping forever. You should
settle down as quickly aspossible. But, man, if they're
trying to impress and they'renot taking God seriously, you
gotta mosey on down the road.
Hang worth your time, you know.
Unknown (28:33):
That's a good word.
That's a good word, you know.
And I think one of the otherthings that has been
problematic, as we see, is thatwe've gotten the wrong sense of
what power is, or Jesus, as yousaid, you know, in your chapter
on lent traditional human powerof what we think it really is
(28:55):
weak. Yeah, there is power inthe weakness of Christ. There
isn't power in who he is, assomebody who's came humbly to us
and presented somethingdifferent, yeah. How do we
navigate that? And what is thegood news of Yeah? Yeah, Jesus
(29:15):
in the midst of power strugglestoday, because
Andrew Arndt (29:18):
we have powers big, big ones. Well, we keep
thinking that the world is goingto be saved by power, and I just
don't think that the scripturesbear that out. And I think, you
know, folks will have to readthe Lent chapter just to to get
a better sense of what I'mtrying to argue for there. But I
think the world can be preservedthrough power. You know, there
(29:38):
are checks on evil that canhappen through power, and if you
got, you know, if you got a madman loose in your neighborhood,
I'm real grateful for thepolice. Yeah, the evil, but all
they can do is restrain theevil. You know what I mean. They
(29:59):
can't them. Arresting this guyand throwing him into prison and
having him stand trial and servein a sentence. Does that
actually? Does it changeanything? And I think that what
you have to admit to yourself isthat it restrains the evil, but
doesn't transform the heart. Andthe only thing that really
transforms the heart is love,which is fundamentally weak and
(30:20):
admittedly so it can't compeland it can't coerce. So, you
know, my wife and I are going on25 years of marriage this
August, and that fell in lovewith her early on. We met in
high school and and I remembergetting to the point of buying a
ring and proposing to her. And Imean, think about what you do.
You're down on a knee,
Unknown (30:45):
holding up a ring and going, would you
Andrew Arndt (30:50):
and I you? I can't do anything to compel an answer
to that question. I have to waitfor the free ascent of her
heart. And if that happens,that's when the magic takes
place, but it might not happen.
And there's a sense in whichthat's, I mean when we come, if
we, you know, if we worship inin a church, for instance, that
celebrates communion every week,something like that is going on,
(31:11):
we're having all theseannouncements about the gospel
and read the scriptures andblah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
but the pinnacle of the serviceis Jesus being like, Do you want
some bread and wine? He's like,kind of, in a way, getting down
on his knee and going, it's,this is here for you. And if you
say yes to this, this willtransform your life. But I
couldn't compel you if I tried,and so I in a world that man, I
(31:34):
think it's one of the saddestthings about the evangelical
movement that we kind of forgotthis. We were gospel people, but
we didn't think our Gospel, ourGospel out deep enough. And we
keep thinking that if we justget the reins of power, then the
culture will be able to save theculture from whatever calamity
(31:55):
is coming down the pike. And Imean, how many times do you have
to keep going through thisbefore you get the power, you
get the person, you get, yourcandidate, in office, and it
doesn't work out the way youthought, and the culture is
still going to hell in ahandbasket before you go maybe
that's not it. So, you know, Imean, so it doesn't mean that we
give up on the political thing.
(32:17):
That doesn't mean that we don'twe, you know, we vote, we're
part of this thing. So that'spart of a how we shape the
culture, and it's part of how werestrain evil. But if you want
to bring about thetransformation of any person or
any culture, I mean, it's lovedoes that, and love is freely
accepted or rejected. And soit's accepting our powerlessness
(32:39):
might actually be again, we goback to it. Paul says it's like
weakness is where the strengthof God is completed. So that
might actually be the way inwhich we see the power of God
begin to rush again into ourculture when we stop trying to
coerce the culture into beingthe way that we want it to be.
Instead, we show up again asheralds, ambassadors of the good
news of the glory of God. It's
Unknown (33:01):
love. Jesus said, Take this bread, take this wine, take
this cup. But before he didthat, Last Supper, he washed
feet, and he told us to do thesame. He told His disciples to
do the same, which I don't know.
I've done it a few times in mylife, but I don't do it like
practically, like that, yeah,like foot washing. But what is
foot washing? How does that showus humility weakness, like the
(33:22):
power that that Christ isbringing and giving? Yeah, I
Andrew Arndt (33:29):
mean, it's the willingness to in the first
century world your foot. I mean,that is the dirtiest part of
your body, just about thesandals. And you walk in the
marketplace in all manner offilth. And the scholars will
tell you that in Jewish society,it was seen as such foot washing
was seen as such a degradingthing that you wouldn't even
have a Jewish servant wash otherJewish feet. That would be
(33:50):
something for a Gentile servant,or whatever to do. And so for
the King of the universe, youknow, to get down, the master to
get down and wash the feet is, Imean, that's overturning a whole
hierarchy there, and it's such ascandal. Peter's like, you can't
do that. And he's like, unless Ido this for you, you have no
part with Me. So there'ssomething about that extreme
humility given and received, theabandonment of worldly power and
(34:14):
the hierarchies given andreceived, it unlocks something,
the kingdom of God. And I mean,I've seen it. We did at our
church in Denver, many yearsago, we did a foot washing
service, and we had to set it upreal cool, where it wasn't like
leaders washing everybody'sfeet, but we had these like
stations set up, and it waspeople washing each other's
feet. And there were two guys inour church who had been lifelong
(34:37):
friends and had gone through areal difficult time, the
relationship experience ofpulling out and nobody, I mean,
for all we tried, we could nothelp them put it back together.
And I don't know how ithappened, and I know it was by
sheer chance, because I checkedwith both of these guys later,
but they wound up in the samekind of foot washing area, and
they were forced by thecircumstance to wash each
(34:59):
other's feet. Right? And we, abunch of us who are in church
leadership, saw it happening,and we're like, elbowing each
other like, you can you believewhat's about? And we watched it
as it took place. And tears arestreaming down both of their
faces, and they get up, youknow, from the bin after
watching each other's feet,hugging each other. And, I mean,
it was a miracle of the Spiritthat nobody really could have
(35:21):
orchestrated. In fact, ifsomebody had manipulated it, it
wouldn't have worked. You knowwhat? I mean, it would have been
like, no, no. It was a thing ofthe spirit, and it was an
engagement, again, in thisthing, where it's like, we're
throwing off the way that theworld thinks about how power
works, and we're engaging in thehumility of Jesus, and somehow
it's loosening the kingdom ofGod. So I don't know, like, what
are the analogs to washing feet,but that's where it's that's
(35:44):
work along. Ponder, what are theanalogs. How do I wash the feet
of my co workers? How do I washthe feet of my neighbors? How do
I wash the feet if I, if I, ifI'm really committed to some
political cause or side, how doI wash the feet of Democrats?
How do I wash the feet ofRepublicans? How do I wash the
feet of you? Know, you name it.
And if you can figure out thatyou might just be the kind of
person that can help open a doorfor eternity to come rushing in,
(36:07):
you know?
Unknown (36:09):
And that's beautiful having that foot foot washing
service then, right? It'sfacilitating encounters with
God, Spirit like, that's thefacilitation. That's the work
that we get to set things up,that he has to do it right? And
he does the work. It's the workthat's true, right? That's
right. As we're walking throughsome of this and how Jesus
encounters us, and he's goodnews, it then begs the question,
(36:34):
a lot of people have been taughtevangelism, this is the good
news. This is how you you talkto somebody about then following
Jesus. How do we then walk withpeople and proclaim the good
news of Jesus with people? Whatdoes that look like for us to go
and be with everyday peoplearound the world and just
(36:55):
proclaim the good news of Jesus?
Yeah, it's not just a formula,yeah. And I
Andrew Arndt (36:59):
love that you use the word formula. I was thinking
about how often in evangelismtrainings I've been in, it was a
real we were so again, becausewe were so concerned to get the
gospel right, we reduced it to aformula, and it lost all of its
it just lost all of its power.
You know, the beautiful thingabout the gospel is that it's as
large as life, because the storyof Jesus is encompassing. And so
(37:20):
we get to speak the presence ofJesus to whomever we're with.
And so, you know the Samaritanwoman, for instance, in John
chapter four, she kind of, Imean, this is one of the most
remarkable encounters in the NewTestament. Evangelism encounters
is that she has thisconversation with Jesus that
really opens things up for her.
(37:41):
And, you know, it ends withlike, she's like, when the
Messiah comes, he's finallygoing to explain everything to
us. And he's like, I who speakto you, am he? And she's like,
Oh, but we don't have shedoesn't She's not saying the
sinners prayer, she's notgetting baptized, she's not
doing any of the things, youknow. And so Jesus rejoins his
(38:01):
disciples. She runs back to thetown, and all she says is, come
and see a man who told meeverything I ever did, and she
doesn't even have a conclusion.
She's like, is this the Messiah?
I don't know. So she speaksabout what she knows and has
experienced, and the scripturesays that at that point, then
the whole town came out to meetJesus. And that to me, if that
(38:26):
doesn't encapsulate, I don'tknow what does. Because there's
not a human on this planet whohas encountered Jesus, who only
really has encountered, we haveonly seen partial glimpses of
him. We don't see the wholething. You know, Dustin said, if
you can understand it orcomprehend it, it's not God. If
we could comprehend, if we couldcomprehend the whole Christ.
It's not Christ for us, but weknow what we have seen and
(38:46):
heard, so we can take thosepieces, and as the spirit moves
us with our neighbors and our coworkers and our friends, family,
whoever who doesn't know theLord, we can just go, do you
know he's a healer? Have you metJesus? You know I one of my
favorite evangelism stories. Ican't remember if it's in this
book or not, but when I was akid, we had this, this is so
(39:07):
great. We had this travelingMinister come through town, and
my pastor was hosting him, andthe guy needed some new shoes,
so they went. They went to alocal shoe dealer at the mall in
our little town, and they'rethere, and he's trying on his
shoes, and he picks out this onepair. And the two of them are
just kind of talking aboutwhatever. And he gets to the
checkout, and the gal rings himup, and it's however many
(39:29):
dollars, and he gives $1 themoney over. She gives him the
change, and then all of asudden, like, he stops, and he
locks eyes with her, and hegoes, have you met Jesus yet.
And she's like, completely takenaback, right? She's like, but
no, and this is the best part ofthe story. He goes, sorry. He
(39:50):
goes, You sure have a lot tolook forward to, don't you? And
he like, he leaves. He flunkedthe evangelism class. He
flunked. It completely. Zero.
Credit, zero credit. You don'tget to know you're out. But it's
so beautiful. It that theelegance of that is so great.
(40:10):
Come see somebody who told meeverything I ever did. Could
this be him? We're justannouncing the presence of
Christ as Christ calls us to andthen we're trusting the Holy
Spirit to deliver the results. Iwould love to know what happened
to that girl and and Joshua,you, you and I will meet her and
high five her one day. That'sthat'll be, that'll be a great
moment. But that, man, you whata thing You sure have a lot to
(40:31):
look forward to is incredible tome, man, that that's the
freedom, that's the freedom thatwe're given. Like, hey, just,
man, just tell them, just saythe name and see what happens.
You know, you're not in chargeof the results.
Unknown (40:46):
I don't know. Man, if, if somebody said that to me, I'm
like, Man, I really want to knowwho this Jesus is, because
there's a lot to look forwardto. Like, I want to look
forward. I want to I want to getthere. Yeah, you go running out
Andrew Arndt (40:57):
of the store. Man, what's crazy to me about the
woman of the well story is thethe good news for her is that
Jesus knew everything about her,everything, hey, all the all the
men that she has married, thethe man that she's living with
that she's not married to, andall so all of her shame and
(41:18):
stuff that She has tried to hidefrom everybody else. The good
news is that Jesus told herabout it, yeah. But the good
news is what she's now seen,yeah, truly seen. That's right,
that's right. And yeah. Andthere's another little wrinkle
there in that text. Now, we'renow, now. Now, it's a couple
preachers riffing on the Biblehere. But he said, The truth is
(41:42):
that you've had five husbands,and the man that you now have is
not quite your husband. So nowwe've got six men in her life
who have failed her, and theseventh will not fail. Yeah. I
mean, the Bridegroom of Israelhas just showed up, and he's
like, gonna put the ring on herfinger. And isn't that the good
news, like, wherever you havesought solace, outside of the
(42:04):
Lord, the Lord is the seventh,and he will not, he will not
fail. He is what you have beenlooking for your entire life.
You know, like to the girl thatin this, in the, you know, have
you met Jesus yet? No, you got alot to look forward to, I, who
speak to you and he, you know,there's something of that in
there. It's
Unknown (42:19):
so good. Yeah, it's so good you got there's this, this
phrase that you said talk aboutin your ascension chapter, you
talk about humanity beingascended, the Ascended humanity,
yeah. And so my question like,What? Okay, unpack that for me a
little bit. And what is the whatis ascended humanity look like?
Andrew Arndt (42:38):
Yeah. I mean, it looks like a humanity that has
been taken into the heavenlyrealms. That this is Paul's
language, you know, he says thatwe have been seated with him and
the heavenly places. And so wealways talked about in the
evangelical movement, dying andgoing to be with Jesus in heaven
(42:58):
when you die. And I've beentempted for a long time just to
be like, that's not in the NewTestament. Get that language out
of here. But the truth is thatwhen you look at the New
Testament, the language isactually there just means
something different than wemeet. So the New Testament says,
Oh yeah, no, you do go, you dodie, and go to be with Jesus in
heaven when you die. And thedeath is your baptism, and
(43:20):
heaven is heaven as it takesplace. In the midst of this
world, you're seated withChrist. So there's a sense in
which, because Christ, Jesus,has taken our flesh into the
heavenly realms, and that is acompleted, perfected flesh, and
we are of that flesh. That meansthat, by the Spirit, over the
course of our lives, what we doas we're sanctified is that we
continue to manifest thatperfected humanity to people,
(43:42):
and that perfected humanity iseverything that the gospel is
calling us to, which is thatwe're kind and compassionate and
we're good to one another, andwe're solicitous of the poor,
and we speak truth to power. Doyou know what I mean? Like we're
making manifest humanity ashumanity was always intended to
be. We're reigning as kings withJesus. We're regal and what we
(44:06):
are, so we're living the waythat God intended us to live. So
die and go to be with Jesus inheaven. Yep, but that's already
happened. So the trick for us isthen to continue kind of that
trajectory of selfmortification, where we continue
to die to ourselves, so that thelife of the Spirit can be more
and more made manifest, thatperfected life of the Spirit can
(44:26):
be more manifest in us. So it'sfunny, you know, when you start
digging apart all these peelingapart, all these layers of the
Jesus story, just how relevantthey are. And the cool thing
about, you know, the ascensionthing, is that it's nothing that
we have to do. I mean, I thinkeverybody like we're one of the
words that you hear a lot inculture now is like
optimization. Everybody's tryingto optimize for something. We're
(44:49):
trying to optimize our health,or optimize, you know, our
nutrition, or optimize ourcareer and blah, blah, blah.
Well, what that is, is that'sthe old, like the ancient,
ancient philosophy. All. Used totalk about this, the kind of
ladder of ascent. So the idea isthat by your own effort, you
could kind of climb up into theheavens. Somehow there was,
like, you know what I mean, likethat peak experience. So we're
(45:10):
just doing that same thing in anew key in the 21st century. But
the amazing thing about thegospel is the gospel doesn't say
that you you have to climb upthere by your effort. The Gospel
says, Oh no, Jesus alreadydragged your stupid butt up in
the heavens. You're alreadythere. And as you were to live
with Him and walk with Him andrest in him like that, life will
(45:30):
be more and more manifest. Andyou don't have any you don't
have to do anything to ascend.
You just have to keep comingwith Jesus. And it's
Unknown (45:36):
going to happen, man, we've been living life so small.
Yeah, we don't get this. We'vebeen living life so small, the
life so much bigger. It alwaysjust shocks me that I have been
like, lifted up into theheavens, that I'm a co heir with
Christ, that I'm writing likethat is dumbfounding like me,
(45:59):
like, really? Yeah, humans,yeah. So it's just, it's just
crazy, like, this is a big lifethat we could live. We could
live a big, big life. It's
Andrew Arndt (46:11):
a big life that's free from the stress of thinking
that there's something that weneed to do to get where we need
to go. But we're just, my yokeis easy and my burden is light,
like believing that he's alreadydone it all for us. The task is
just to love the Lord our Godwith all our heart, soul, mind
and strength, love our neighborsourselves, keep company with
Jesus, and the life will be mademanifest in us. It's so it's so
(46:33):
liberating. It takes us out ofthe realm of, I'll call it law,
and into the realm of gospel.
And when I say law, I just thinkabout all the ways in which that
logic of if you do these things,then these things will happen
for you that is pervasive, notjust in religious culture, but
it's pervasive in secularculture. You know, the way that
the gurus of self optimizationare talking now is it's like,
(46:54):
well, if you get your fitnessjust right, and you get your
career just right, and you getyour friends just right, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, and youcan listen to podcast 24/7, 365,
until you're dizzy, trying tooptimize your life and be more
empty than when you started.
What if you just believed it isfinished? He did it. You're
good, you're good, you're goodas you are. You're good, and
(47:15):
just keep walking. You know,there's a whole different logic
in the Gospel. It's soliberating,
Unknown (47:19):
it's so good. It's so beautiful. I love Jesus. No, I
love Jesus too, man. So call if,if people pick up a strange and
gracious light, what is yourhope for the readers? What? What
do you hope
Andrew Arndt (47:34):
to bring about?
Yeah, it's what I'm hoping formy readers. Is the same thing
that I hope for my congregationevery time I preach to them, and
it's just that they would seethat in Christ, Jesus, it's the
unfathomable Depths of God, youknow, and that everything in
their life is touched that's allaccounted for in who Jesus is,
and that there's nothing thatthey can encounter or go through
(47:54):
that is not the word of thegospel, is not spoken over that.
And my congregation is going tobe sick of me saying it, but I
say it all the time, and I'mgoing to say it until they
believe it. You know, SecondCorinthians, 120 no matter how
many promises God has made,they're all yes in Christ, and
through him, the Amen is spokenby us to the glory of God. You
know, God says yes in Christ,Jesus, and we say amen, and the
(48:16):
magic happens. So I just, I hopethat any reader of this book
would just have a broaderimagination for who Jesus is for
them and who Jesus is for theworld, and that they'd fall in
love with Jesus again and beinspired to carry him out of the
highways and the byways of theirlife, and maybe to say, maybe to
say to some cashier, you know,you got a lot to look forward to
and see what the Spirit doeswith that. I'd
Unknown (48:40):
love to get some recommendations from you. So
anything you've been reading orwatching lately, you could
recommend
Andrew Arndt (48:45):
reading or watching. Man, I you know, I'm
working on a new book onAugustine's confessions. It's
like a 40 day devotionalcommentary based on this great
Christian classic. So I've beenup to my eyeballs reading
Augusta and scholarly literatureand the confession. So if
anybody's interested in that,I'll give them the reading list.
(49:07):
And I don't know, what are wewhat are we watching? These
days, my kids have started theirsecond watch through the Netflix
series Stranger Things, which Ijust loved and thought was,
like, the greatest thing I'dever seen, partially because I'm
a child of the 80s, and I waslike, they nailed it. They
nailed it, definitely nailed it.
And so they're watching itthrough again, and we're doing
that with them as we can, andloving every second of it. So
modern health, those are thethings, I suppose,
Unknown (49:30):
awesome. Where would you like to point people to? How
can they get three and somegracious lights
Andrew Arndt (49:35):
available online wherever books are sold. Amazon
is supposed to be the bestplace. And if you get it on
Amazon and read it, leave, leavea good, honest review. That
helps. And you might also seethis brick and mortar bookstores
as well. I think it's going tosome barns and mobiles,
depending on where you are, butI think online is the best
Unknown (49:53):
way. Great, great. Can anybody? Yeah, just follow you
and maybe read. Need anythingelse that you're writing, how
can they? Yeah, yeah,
Andrew Arndt (50:03):
on x and Instagram. I'm at the Andrew,
aren't sub stack? Uh, I've beendoing that pretty consistently
for last year and a half. Itslowed down some with the new
project I'm working on. But ifyou just look up, Andrew, aren't
on sub stack, I'm there, andsame thing on Facebook. So would
love to connect.
Unknown (50:18):
Great. Well, Andrew, thank you for this. Thank you
for like opening up the gospelof Jesus for us and just to
really revel in the beauty ofwho he is, what he's done, that
he interacts with every aspectof our life, that he is good
news. And the good news is notjust about where we go after we
die, but it is good news for ourdaily lives, even in the midst
(50:41):
of pain and destruction anddifficulty, his presence can be
felt and be among us and that wecould be with him in our life.
And man, Jesus is amazing, andthis conversation was amazing.
So thank you for this. I lovedit. Man, thanks for having me.
I appreciate it. Yeah.
Paul says it's like weakness is where the
(00:01):
strength of God is completed. Sothat might actually be the way
in which we see the power of Godbegin to rush again into our
culture. When we stop trying tocoerce the culture into being
the way that we want it to besaid, we show up again as
heralds, ambassadors of the goodnews of the glory of God.
Unknown (00:22):
I Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ. Look like Jesus. I'myour host. Joshua Johnson,
Andrew Arndt is back on thepodcast today. He's a pastor and
(00:45):
author who's challenging how wetypically understand the gospel.
His new book, a strange andgracious light, explores what it
means to see Jesus as a livingpresence that intersects with
our real, complicated lives,we'll discuss how the gospel
isn't just about personalsalvation or afterlife
insurance, but a transformativestory that speaks directly into
(01:07):
our current cultural moment withall its complexity and pain and
potential, Andrew brings thatfresh, albeit an ancient,
perspective on how Jesusencounters us in our everyday
struggles, political tensionsand personal challenges. This
conversation is about reimagining the good news of Jesus
as something far more expansiveand immediate than we've
(01:29):
traditionally understood. We'llexplore what it means to
experience Christ's presence ina way that's both deeply
personal and broadlytransformative. So join us as we
facilitate encounters with theliving God. Here's my
conversation with Andrew Arndt,Andrew, welcome back to shifting
culture. So excited to have youback on. Thanks for joining me.
(01:51):
Oh man, so good to be here.
Thanks, Joshua, it's been twoand a half years since you've
been on. It doesn't feel thatlong, but it has been that long.
Think back last two and a halfyears, and think of God
encounters. What's happened?
Where has God encountered you?
Wow, in the writing space, inthe life space, and pastoring in
(02:12):
your life. Like and think, thinkof a god encounter. Think of
something where, like this is, Ifeel the presence of God in a
tangible way, wow. Well, by two
Andrew Arndt (02:24):
and a half years.
I mean, where Haven't weencountered the presence of God
in two and a half years? I igotta tell you, Joshua, I think
when I started out in my journeyof faith, I would kind of like
read the Psalms, and you wouldsee those moments when I was
like the psalmist was cryingout, oh, God, deliver me, and
the Lord would deliver and Ithink I kind of thought, Okay,
(02:47):
so that's a thing that canhappen, you know, like you can
get in trouble and you cry outto the Lord that you'll come
through on your behalf. Butsurely that only happens once in
a while, right? That that wasthe exceptional circumstance,
and maybe I'm the only one inthe room, but I think I'm coming
to learn that, oh, God, save me,the waters come up in my neck is
(03:07):
not the exceptionalcircumstance. It's sort of like
the daily bread of ourexistence. So I can't, I can't
think of a week in the last twoand a half years where I haven't
had some moment where my backwas wasn't up against the wall,
and I was going, oh geez, Idon't Okay, like I, I'm pretty
sure I'm at the end of what Ican do humanly. I'm going to
(03:28):
need God here. And I think as Ithink as I'm learning to trust
in that more that's making lifemore joyful for me. So I'm, I'm
I'm finding myself going, well,that's okay. That's the thing.
That's the thing that happens.
And in this, in this life, we'reconstantly going to come up
(03:48):
against places that are thelimit of what we can accomplish
humanly. And that's what Godwhich is what Paul says he's
like, the power of God is notperfected in human power. The
power of God is protected inhuman weakness. So how about you
just plan on showing up in life,in life, and all of these places
where it's just, you don't, youdon't have enough, and God's
gonna have to come through andand the surprises of the Spirit,
(04:10):
you know, are like normal foryou, and not the exception to
the rule. So I don't know, and Iyou know, in church leadership,
you experience it all the time.
And we were just talking offlineabout some stuff that we've been
walking through as a church.
And, you know, few weeks backgoes, I can think of three or
four rooms I was in where theconversation felt really high
(04:31):
stakes, and it was like, I, Iwant to be able to control the
outcome here. And I kind ofthink for the good of the
church, I might need to be ableto I, it would be good for me to
control the outcome, but I'm notin control of the outcome, and
all I can do is show up with thetruth and with my vulnerable
heart and put it in the hands ofthe Spirit and trust the Lord
for a miracle. And you know youask like, where did you sense
(04:52):
the spirit tangibly in thoserooms? I watched sea changes in
the feeling of the room happen.
So yeah, man, it's not, that'snot where have you. It's like
we're having to,
Unknown (05:04):
yeah, it's all the time, man, it's all the time.
We're opening up. We'revulnerable. You get to the end
of yourself constantly, andthat's where God shows up and he
he meets you in those spaces. Ithink that's what I love about
your your bug, strange andgracious light is that it opens
up the gospel for us, that it'snot just a get out of hell free
(05:28):
card, but it is more like thegospel is good news for all our
life and the really difficultvalleys and struggles that we
have, and even the mountaintopmoments like he's there and it's
good news. And so can youreframe a little bit the gospel
(05:48):
for us? What, what's a typical,say, evangelical message of what
we may have heard, what thegospel is, and what are you
trying to open up for us, of howgospel is? Yeah, thanks. I,
Andrew Arndt (06:02):
you know, I'm, I'm born and raised in this
movement. So I'm, I'm, I'm partof the evangelical movement,
Pentecostal, charismatic tribe.
That's kind of where I camefrom. And so our burdens and
talking about the gospel havelargely been the same, and I
think that the way that I'vecome to understand the way that
we understood the gospel, andthe way that a lot of
(06:24):
Evangelicals understand thegospel is that it primarily
concerns your inner life, youknow, so something called your
spirit or your soul, and whetherthat's reconciled, whether
you're at peace with God, andthen the afterlife, where you're
going to spend eternity. Andboth of those things are
incredibly important, you know,so whether we have peace with
God and and what the afterlifeis going to look like for us,
(06:46):
those are not small pieces ofthe puzzle, but if those are the
only pieces of the gospel puzzlefor us, then I think we're
missing the broader scope ofwhat the gospel is. And as a
result of that, when we thoughtthought about, you know, the
inner life and the afterlife,mostly, I think we kind of
thought of the gospel as it'sthe death and resurrection of
Jesus, and so that's kind oflike, that's the good news part
(07:06):
of the life of Jesus, and thatconcerns mainly those things
that we just talked about. And Ithink that a practical effect of
that is that we don't reallyknow what to do with the rest of
the Bible, most of it feels likePrelude, and then just kind of
the afterward. And we don't knowwhat to do with most of the life
of Jesus. It just kind of feelslike, can we get on with death
(07:28):
and resurrection? And I justthink that that's not right.
There's no reason that theevangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke
and John, are recording all ofthese details in the life of
Jesus leading up to the passion.
You know, here we are talkingduring Holy Week. And there's a
reason that subsequentgeneration of Christians sought
(07:49):
to collect all of these bookstogether, including the Old
Testament, to say, No, this isthis is good news for us. So
what I'm kind of a quote thatbecomes a pivotal quote for me
in the book, is Robert Jenson'sgreat mind, the late Lutheran
theologian, who said that thegospel is the story of Jesus
told as a promise, and so it'snot just one piece, but it's the
whole thing. And I think whathappens if, if, if gospel is
(08:14):
just inner life and afterlife,is that it leaves most of our
actual life untouched by thegoodness of the Lord. But if we,
if we can say no, it's the wholestory of Jesus, all of that is
actually gospel from Preludeeverything before the Gospels to
the Incarnation, all the waythrough not only his
resurrection, but his ascensionin the pouring out of the Holy
(08:35):
Spirit, and his return again andglory to judge the living the
dead, what happens in our wholelife is embraced by the goodness
of the Lord, and we see ourwhole life as something that's
capable of being transfigured bythe Divine, by the divine
goodness and glory. So that's Ifeel like. That's what I've been
trying to do for 20 years ofministry. And this book kind of
(08:55):
gave me, gave me an excuse totake a whack at it and just sort
of like, say it as clearly as Ican say it. You know, if you
Unknown (09:02):
think about the gospel as interacting with all of our
life, it's like it's a beautifulthing, like life of Jesus. I
think a lot of people in thelast 510, years have felt really
unmoored. They think thatthey've believed this gospel.
It's just about the afterlife.
It's just about my interiorlife. Since we've gone through
really difficult times in thelast five years, people are go
(09:27):
well, doesn't really haveanything to do with my life. So
why am I following this? Jesus,what am I doing in the midst of
of those, those hard, difficulttimes when everything seems to
be falling apart, How Is theregood news, like, how does Jesus
show up as good news when all Isee around me is destruction?
Andrew Arndt (09:50):
Wow. I mean, what a question. And I think I think
that's hard to I think thatthat's always hard to answer in
any kind of a super broad way.
Right, other than by saying, butall of it is subject to
redemption, all of it. He'sconcerned about all of it. He
reigns over. I think where itgets really fun is where we're
working in congregational life,and we're watching specifically
(10:13):
how these trends, you know, youtalk about, the last five years,
we live through a globalpandemic. We have wars raging
all over the world, so Israeland Palestine and the Ukraine.
We have an economy that's tipsyturvy. We have all this
political and social chaosthat's constantly fomenting. And
you know, I mean, at the barestpossible level, the Gospel isn't
(10:35):
what you can be reconciled toGod and go with go to heaven
when you die, the bear ispossible. I mean, like the early
church, gospel is, well, Jesusis Lord, and so that's what you
can say overall, that Jesus isLord, Jesus. Jesus knows. Jesus
knows what's going on withglobal pandemics, and Jesus is
in charge of that. You know,Jesus is in charge of the wind
and the waves of social andpolitical chaos and and he's not
(10:58):
just, he doesn't just have aplan for bringing that to a
place of peace, but also he'sworking in all of that somehow
to bring us where he wants us togo. Then Jesus is Lord in Israel
and Palestine, and Jesus is Lordin the Ukraine, like he's Lord
over all of that. And we canread, we can read the prophets,
and we can see the fomenting ofthe nations and how God is at
work and all of that. So, like,there's real broad thing. But I
(11:20):
think what I love doing as apastor is meeting people at the
individual level and findingjust where that anxiety point
is, just where that point offear is. And what you're trying
to do is you're not trying toexplain away what people are
feeling. You're trying toannounce the presence of Christ
to it. And it's astonishing tome. You know that, like when
(11:40):
Jesus, the resurrected one,shows up with his disciples, he
doesn't try to explain awaytheir anxieties and fears, he
just kind of offers them thegift of His presence, and he's
like peace, be with you, youknow. And he breathes on them
and says, receive the HolySpirit. And then He blesses
them, and he says, Lo, I'm withyou always to the very end of
(12:01):
the age. So I don't know, how dowe announce the good news to
people in the midst of all ofthis stuff? I think we might
just say, you know that theincarnation is true, that God
has come to dwell among us, thatJesus is present with us, and we
don't have to wait for the worldto burn to eventually see the
glory of the Lord. We can seethe glory of the Lord revealed
(12:22):
in our midst now, and I, as apreacher, I just think that
that's my job, is to say thatweek after week to people who
feel like their life is comingapart at the seeds to be like,
Jesus is Lord, and he's with us,and you could be okay, you know.
Unknown (12:38):
And sometimes we have to, we have to speak that to
ourselves so that we cancontinue to move on and to be
with people when we are like,Hey. I mean, I believe it
intellectually, I just don'tfeel it right now.
Andrew Arndt (12:52):
Well, there's no doubt about no doubt about that.
How can we offer the consolationof the Lord unless we're
experiencing ourselves, youknow? So I agree with that. I
The Gospel must be preached tothe preacher, to the leader,
over and over again. We got tokeep meeting the resurrected
one. Yeah. So if you have havesomebody say, you know, in your
book, you talk about a story ofa woman dying of cancer there,
(13:13):
so as a pastor, or somebody thatactually then announces that God
is with you, how do you, how doyou continue in that work? How
do you, how do you do this? Whenyou do see this stuff happening
and go, Man, maybe the miracleof healing right now, it's not
going to happen, and maybe it'sjust presence is, yeah, well,
(13:35):
that's, that's the cool thingabout it, is that I think this,
again, the story of Jesus givesyou a way to speak the gospel,
speak good news to people at somany different dimensions. So
for instance, with this womanthat you're talking about,
because we believe that, again,the gospel is the story of Jesus
told us the promise. One of thethings that we see in the
Gospels is that Jesus is ahealer. He just is. And there's
(13:57):
never a time that anybody comesto Jesus and says, I need
healing, that Jesus goes, youknow, I just don't know if it's
God's will for you to be healed.
Like that just never happens.
That's how we talk, you know,I'm just not really sure about
healing, but that's not, that'snot how Jesus talks. So it is
the absolute will of God thathuman beings should be healed,
(14:18):
thing that we don't know. And weknow we understand this, because
we live in the time in between,the times where the kingdom is,
it's it's already, but it's notyet, because when exactly that
healing is going to take place,does that happen in this like on
this side of that or are wereally just talking about the
raising up of that person beyondthe boundary of death? Which is
that final healing? I don't knowthe answer that question, and I
(14:39):
don't have to know my job is toannounce the presence of Christ
to that person. So when I'msitting by the bedside of the
person who's dying of cancer,you better believe I'm praying
for healing, because that's partof the story. And I'm not going,
Lord, if it's your will, I am. Iam getting my hands smudgy with
oil, and I'm smacking it on thatperson's head, and I'm calling.
(15:00):
Upon the presence of life givingspirit to come and raise that
person up. So that's one part ofit. But when we come to that
point where it's very clear thatlife is ebbing away, we also
know that Jesus is our companionin death, and so he's not just
it's not a failure of the gospelthat this person didn't get
healed. Jesus has actually takenthem in that sense of
(15:21):
abandonment that accompanies theexperience with death. And he's
holding them, and he's escortingthem through to the other side,
bringing them right through toresurrection life. So I don't
see how you can lose and that'swhat the story of Jesus gives
you. You know, is like theability to speak fully and
completely about the goodness ofthe Lord to all of the
dimensions of human experiencewithout feeling like you need to
(15:42):
like it's not balancing. I'm nottrying to balance it, which we
can have full volume on all ofthe things, which is, I think
what we're supposed to do. We
Unknown (15:51):
were sitting in church yesterday, but we were in home
church yesterday, so we weretalking about the triumphal
entry, and we were comparing itto Ephesians two as well, and
going back and forth, which isfun, but one of the things that
we were talking about was howthe church often makes these
types of church calendar typeevents as sanitized versions of
(16:13):
what they actually were, that ifyou look at what what's
happening, there's all sorts ofof chaos, Like we're continuing
to read and like Jesus isweeping over Jerusalem. He's
throwing over over tables likein the temple, like he's, he's
confronting people in a way thatyou know that he's going to be
put to death for because he's.
He's speaking clearly andplainly and but we usually
(16:35):
sanitize it. Yeah, so just talkthrough then congregational
life, Pastor life, like even thechurch calendar, is you're
you're talking through yourbook, through the church
calendar. How do we open upwhat's there and what it looks
like? So it's not just asanitized version that go, oh,
(16:55):
that's a nice little you know?
Yeah, worry, yeah. It doesn'treally impact our life, but it
actually does. Well, reallygetting
Andrew Arndt (17:07):
such a great that's a such a great question.
Joshua, because, you know, so Igrew up in church. I'm going on
44 years old, so I was, I wascoming of age during the
flanagraph days. Man, yeah,these stories can be slow. And
for any of your podcastlisteners that don't know what
that is, just Google it. Figureit out. But for any you know,
(17:29):
these stories can be selfflanographed that they get
flatten out. And I thinkwhenever they get flattened out,
they lose their bite. So youasked the question about like,
how can preachers, like, unlockthe power of the gospel in the
church? Well, I think that theway that we do that is by paying
attention, not just to kind ofthe broad contours of the story,
(17:50):
though, certainly that, but youalso want to pay attention to
the details of the story,because it's in so many of the
small details of the story thatthe Lord is needling us into
salvation. So I'll give you likeone example from a text that I
preached this past weekend. AndI didn't actually touch this
piece of the text, but this isan important point. It could
(18:11):
have certainly been made gooduse of for preaching, because
the triumphal entry happens, youknow, this is Passover time.
Jerusalem is normally 35,000 orso people, you know. But at
Passover time, scholars tell usthat it swells to 250 or so,
250,000 or so pilgrims, andmaybe more, coming from the four
corners of the Roman Empire toworship. And so you have Jesus.
(18:34):
Here is this Jesus entering intoJerusalem on a donkey. He
actually is. You would come intolike the kings of Israel. You
would go out on a war horse, butwhen you won the battle, you'd
come in on the donkey, and sothat's like, your reign is
secured. So this is like amassive political statement he's
making. So he comes in toJerusalem, and what Matthew says
is the whole city was stirred.
And that word stirred is theGreek word a size today, where
(18:57):
we get seismic from. It was anearthquake. It shook the city to
its core. And everybody says,Who is this? And they say, this
is Jesus, the prophet, fromNazareth in Galilee, which may
not mean a lot to us, butNazareth in Galilee would be
like this. It's the equivalentof a bunch of New Yorkers
(19:18):
having, you know, everybody'sgathered together for a big
party, and word gets out thatsomebody is running for mayor,
and they think that they'vealready won. And this is a
person who comes from a podunktown outside of Dallas Fort
Worth. Can you imagine how theNew Yorkers would freak out at
that? Who does this person thinkthat they, they are this Texan
(19:40):
is going to come in here and tryto be our boss and tell us what
to do. Some people would beexcited. Most people would be
kind of ticked off about it,because there's like, there is
like, some prejudice there,right? There's like, social gap,
there's, there's, there's socialdistance between the two things.
And that's actually a key themeof math. Matthews that he's
trying to draw out. He's tryingto show that there really is,
(20:02):
like, some ethnic despising.
There is like some some kind ofpride and superiority going on
in sort of the religious elitesof Jerusalem. So when somebody
says that somebody from Nazarethin Galilee is coming in to be
king, what's happening is thatkind of, like, uh, ethnocentrism
would be what one way of sayingit, but that's getting flushed
out into the open so that it canbe dealt with. And I think that
(20:25):
wise preachers and leaders inthe church will pay attention to
the details of the story likethat, because those details
unlock what God is trying to dofor us. I think that's
Unknown (20:34):
helpful. We could do this. We could unlock something.
We could open things up in a waywhere it actually it touches us,
and we don't have to sanitizeit. It's Yep, Jesus enters into
a messy, messy place. Yes, andour world is messy, and if it
doesn't touch the messiness,then you know what good is it?
This is what he's called us to.
You know the thing in your inyour chapter around Christmas
(20:58):
about encounters with Jesus, Ithink the encounter is a space
where I think everythingchanges, like, because I've had,
like, real specific encounters,like, like, you having an
encounter when you're holdingyour baby first time and God is
speaking to you in that Andyou're weeping over your baby.
(21:20):
It's, it's a beautifulencounter, right? And you know
what? What happens is that whenyou're in a difficult time, you
could look back on thatencounter like, Oh, God is with
me. Like, I've, I've sensed hispresence. I know he's there. How
could we start to facilitatesome of these encounters with
Jesus for people, so that theyencounter the living Christ in
(21:42):
their day to day that reallysustains them through a life of
faith to move them forward.
Andrew Arndt (21:50):
Wow. You know, that's a that's a great
question. Facilitate is just theright word, isn't it? We can't
make it happen for people, butwhat we can maybe do is set up
circumstances where they couldsense the presence of the Lord.
And I think as, I think aschurch leaders in particular, so
(22:13):
whether we're leading smallgroups or church services or one
on one counseling, whatever itis, I just think that this is
our stock and trade, like whatwe do is we try, like we're
trying to live attuned to thepresence of God, so that we can
bring a sense of the presence ofGod into all of the spaces that
we lead. And if in ourleadership, we're helping people
(22:35):
attune themselves to thepresence of God in that space,
then I think that is a trainingfor them to begin to see the
presence of God in all of life.
You know, the worst casescenario for us is that people
think that church services orreligious activities are
fundamental sacredness, andeverything else is not sacred.
But I think about the poetWendell Berry, who said that
there are no sacred places andunsacred places. There are only
(22:57):
sacred places and desecratedplaces. And so what should
happen when we come intosacredness is that we are we
have our eyes open to see howall of life is sacred, and then
we become the kind of peoplethat can spot the presence of
God. So I think as as likeleaders in the church, I think
that we can help people withthat. But I also think even if
(23:18):
we're not leaders in the church.
I just think that having anawareness of sacredness, having
an awareness of a depth ofpresence, the presence of Christ
in all things, can really helpus. And so that boils down to
simple things like the way inwhich we, I don't know, engage
our neighbors and our coworkers. Do we engage them as
though we're in a hurry, asthough there's something more
(23:39):
important than them, or when thedivine interruption of their
need or their life comes along,do we take that seriously as an
encounter with the Lord? And ifwe do, I think it'll help them
connect with the presence ofGod. So can we live lives that
are driven along by a sense ofthe holy depth at the heart of
(23:59):
all life, you know, and if wecan't do it, I don't I don't
know who else is going to do it.
And I think that's what it meansto be a people of the
Incarnation. So we don't justbelieve that God hallowed, I
think I quote Athanasius in thatchapter to this effect. But we
don't just believe that Godhallowed one body, the body of
Jesus, but because he is thehallowed and hallowing presence
(24:19):
of God when He comes among us,the whole city, the cosmos, has
been honored. So what we'redoing, then again, is we're
announcing the presence ofChrist too, and discerning the
depth of Christ in all things.
And that's that's our uniquevocation as Christians.
Unknown (24:35):
So, yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people, especially in
the last you know, five yearswhen everything's hit the fan,
people go, Hey, I don't know ifI really like the church, like
the congregational life, but Ilove Jesus, and I want, I want
Jesus, but I I really there'ssomething that we we miss if we
(24:57):
don't have the congregation, ifwe don't. Have the body of
Christ, right? Yeah, yeah. So ifyou're talking to somebody that
is in that position, go, man,I've, I've seen the the church
perpetrate things that haven'tbeen healthy. But what is the
good news of of the Body ofChrist? What's the good news of
(25:18):
the congregation? Why should webe with one another?
Andrew Arndt (25:23):
I mean, the simplest answer to that is that
God reveals Himself in Scriptureas a God who's never without a
people. And so you do haveindividuals in the scriptures
that have individual encounterswith God, but that individual
encounter with God is always inthe service of the whole it's
(25:43):
always in the service of thepeople. So, you know, Abraham's
encounter with God. God's like,there's a family. I'm going to
build a family. Moses encounterwith God on mountaintop. He's
like, there are these people. Gorescue them. Elijah on the
mountaintop. I've reserved 7000year instruction, so we're
always getting thrust back intothe world of people. I that's
maybe the most obvious answer.
And I think the second mostobvious answer is just that
we're commanded to, and Godpromises that his presence is
(26:06):
going to be among these peoplewhile I'm with, not just you
individually, I'm with y'allalways to the very end of the
age. So for all of its flaws,and they are many, we are told
in the scriptures that there'sthis peculiar density of
presence that happens among thepeople of God, that if we'll
stay with them, we'll keepbumping into Jesus. And I don't
(26:28):
know how else to answer thatquestion for me personally,
except just to say, you know, II guess I bump into Jesus more
routinely among the people ofGod than I do when I just kind
of on my own. And it is nice.
I'm an introvert by nature, andI nature, and I love being on my
own and out and all that stuff.
But I see miracles when I'm withthe people of God. I do think
(26:49):
that for the person that thenkind of burned out on it, I
think that some of thesometimes, sometimes the reason
that we get burned out on it isbecause we have churches that
are either trying to impress us,or they don't take God very
seriously, you know what I mean?
So they're trying to impress us,so it's just like, it's like a
rock concert with a TED talk. Ican't do that anymore, or they
(27:12):
don't take God seriouslyanymore. And that can take a lot
of different forms. The rockconcert thing, I think, can be
one piece of that, but also inthese churches that are so given
over to traditionalism that theliving presence of God has
leaked out. They're just kind ofgoing through the religious
rigmarole, and that can reallywear the spirit out. So I think
for those people that arefeeling exiled at the moment
(27:33):
from church and they're not surewhere to land, I don't have any
awesome advice for you, otherthan go to a go to a church that
you know that believes thehistorical gospel as much as
anybody can. You know that hecame among you. Christ came
among us, and God, he was raisedto life again. He's come again.
(27:54):
And they and they take the Bibleseriously. But try to be among a
people that are not trying toimpress you. Try to be among the
people that you feel like aretaking God really seriously, and
chances are, you're going tobump into Jesus pretty
frequently among those people.
But if they're not doing thosethings, I don't know, move on to
the next one. There's, there'senough, there's enough churches
that you can afford to be choosyfor just a second, because a
(28:15):
decision like this does matter,you know, and I don't want
people to be church shoppers orhopping forever. You should
settle down as quickly aspossible. But, man, if they're
trying to impress and they'renot taking God seriously, you
gotta mosey on down the road.
Hang worth your time, you know.
Unknown (28:33):
That's a good word.
That's a good word, you know.
And I think one of the otherthings that has been
problematic, as we see, is thatwe've gotten the wrong sense of
what power is, or Jesus, as yousaid, you know, in your chapter
on lent traditional human powerof what we think it really is
(28:55):
weak. Yeah, there is power inthe weakness of Christ. There
isn't power in who he is, assomebody who's came humbly to us
and presented somethingdifferent, yeah. How do we
navigate that? And what is thegood news of Yeah? Yeah, Jesus
(29:15):
in the midst of power strugglestoday, because
Andrew Arndt (29:18):
we have powers big, big ones. Well, we keep
thinking that the world is goingto be saved by power, and I just
don't think that the scripturesbear that out. And I think, you
know, folks will have to readthe Lent chapter just to to get
a better sense of what I'mtrying to argue for there. But I
think the world can be preservedthrough power. You know, there
(29:38):
are checks on evil that canhappen through power, and if you
got, you know, if you got a madman loose in your neighborhood,
I'm real grateful for thepolice. Yeah, the evil, but all
they can do is restrain theevil. You know what I mean. They
(29:59):
can't them. Arresting this guyand throwing him into prison and
having him stand trial and servein a sentence. Does that
actually? Does it changeanything? And I think that what
you have to admit to yourself isthat it restrains the evil, but
doesn't transform the heart. Andthe only thing that really
transforms the heart is love,which is fundamentally weak and
(30:20):
admittedly so it can't compeland it can't coerce. So, you
know, my wife and I are going on25 years of marriage this
August, and that fell in lovewith her early on. We met in
high school and and I remembergetting to the point of buying a
ring and proposing to her. And Imean, think about what you do.
You're down on a knee,
Unknown (30:45):
holding up a ring and going, would you
Andrew Arndt (30:50):
and I you? I can't do anything to compel an answer
to that question. I have to waitfor the free ascent of her
heart. And if that happens,that's when the magic takes
place, but it might not happen.
And there's a sense in whichthat's, I mean when we come, if
we, you know, if we worship inin a church, for instance, that
celebrates communion every week,something like that is going on,
(31:11):
we're having all theseannouncements about the gospel
and read the scriptures andblah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
but the pinnacle of the serviceis Jesus being like, Do you want
some bread and wine? He's like,kind of, in a way, getting down
on his knee and going, it's,this is here for you. And if you
say yes to this, this willtransform your life. But I
couldn't compel you if I tried,and so I in a world that man, I
(31:34):
think it's one of the saddestthings about the evangelical
movement that we kind of forgotthis. We were gospel people, but
we didn't think our Gospel, ourGospel out deep enough. And we
keep thinking that if we justget the reins of power, then the
culture will be able to save theculture from whatever calamity
(31:55):
is coming down the pike. And Imean, how many times do you have
to keep going through thisbefore you get the power, you
get the person, you get, yourcandidate, in office, and it
doesn't work out the way youthought, and the culture is
still going to hell in ahandbasket before you go maybe
that's not it. So, you know, Imean, so it doesn't mean that we
give up on the political thing.
(32:17):
That doesn't mean that we don'twe, you know, we vote, we're
part of this thing. So that'spart of a how we shape the
culture, and it's part of how werestrain evil. But if you want
to bring about thetransformation of any person or
any culture, I mean, it's lovedoes that, and love is freely
accepted or rejected. And soit's accepting our powerlessness
(32:39):
might actually be again, we goback to it. Paul says it's like
weakness is where the strengthof God is completed. So that
might actually be the way inwhich we see the power of God
begin to rush again into ourculture when we stop trying to
coerce the culture into beingthe way that we want it to be.
Instead, we show up again asheralds, ambassadors of the good
news of the glory of God. It's
Unknown (33:01):
love. Jesus said, Take this bread, take this wine, take
this cup. But before he didthat, Last Supper, he washed
feet, and he told us to do thesame. He told His disciples to
do the same, which I don't know.
I've done it a few times in mylife, but I don't do it like
practically, like that, yeah,like foot washing. But what is
foot washing? How does that showus humility weakness, like the
(33:22):
power that that Christ isbringing and giving? Yeah, I
Andrew Arndt (33:29):
mean, it's the willingness to in the first
century world your foot. I mean,that is the dirtiest part of
your body, just about thesandals. And you walk in the
marketplace in all manner offilth. And the scholars will
tell you that in Jewish society,it was seen as such foot washing
was seen as such a degradingthing that you wouldn't even
have a Jewish servant wash otherJewish feet. That would be
(33:50):
something for a Gentile servant,or whatever to do. And so for
the King of the universe, youknow, to get down, the master to
get down and wash the feet is, Imean, that's overturning a whole
hierarchy there, and it's such ascandal. Peter's like, you can't
do that. And he's like, unless Ido this for you, you have no
part with Me. So there'ssomething about that extreme
humility given and received, theabandonment of worldly power and
(34:14):
the hierarchies given andreceived, it unlocks something,
the kingdom of God. And I mean,I've seen it. We did at our
church in Denver, many yearsago, we did a foot washing
service, and we had to set it upreal cool, where it wasn't like
leaders washing everybody'sfeet, but we had these like
stations set up, and it waspeople washing each other's
feet. And there were two guys inour church who had been lifelong
(34:37):
friends and had gone through areal difficult time, the
relationship experience ofpulling out and nobody, I mean,
for all we tried, we could nothelp them put it back together.
And I don't know how ithappened, and I know it was by
sheer chance, because I checkedwith both of these guys later,
but they wound up in the samekind of foot washing area, and
they were forced by thecircumstance to wash each
(34:59):
other's feet. Right? And we, abunch of us who are in church
leadership, saw it happening,and we're like, elbowing each
other like, you can you believewhat's about? And we watched it
as it took place. And tears arestreaming down both of their
faces, and they get up, youknow, from the bin after
watching each other's feet,hugging each other. And, I mean,
it was a miracle of the Spiritthat nobody really could have
(35:21):
orchestrated. In fact, ifsomebody had manipulated it, it
wouldn't have worked. You knowwhat? I mean, it would have been
like, no, no. It was a thing ofthe spirit, and it was an
engagement, again, in thisthing, where it's like, we're
throwing off the way that theworld thinks about how power
works, and we're engaging in thehumility of Jesus, and somehow
it's loosening the kingdom ofGod. So I don't know, like, what
are the analogs to washing feet,but that's where it's that's
(35:44):
work along. Ponder, what are theanalogs. How do I wash the feet
of my co workers? How do I washthe feet of my neighbors? How do
I wash the feet if I, if I, ifI'm really committed to some
political cause or side, how doI wash the feet of Democrats?
How do I wash the feet ofRepublicans? How do I wash the
feet of you? Know, you name it.
And if you can figure out thatyou might just be the kind of
person that can help open a doorfor eternity to come rushing in,
(36:07):
you know?
Unknown (36:09):
And that's beautiful having that foot foot washing
service then, right? It'sfacilitating encounters with
God, Spirit like, that's thefacilitation. That's the work
that we get to set things up,that he has to do it right? And
he does the work. It's the workthat's true, right? That's
right. As we're walking throughsome of this and how Jesus
encounters us, and he's goodnews, it then begs the question,
(36:34):
a lot of people have been taughtevangelism, this is the good
news. This is how you you talkto somebody about then following
Jesus. How do we then walk withpeople and proclaim the good
news of Jesus with people? Whatdoes that look like for us to go
and be with everyday peoplearound the world and just
(36:55):
proclaim the good news of Jesus?
Yeah, it's not just a formula,yeah. And I
Andrew Arndt (36:59):
love that you use the word formula. I was thinking
about how often in evangelismtrainings I've been in, it was a
real we were so again, becausewe were so concerned to get the
gospel right, we reduced it to aformula, and it lost all of its
it just lost all of its power.
You know, the beautiful thingabout the gospel is that it's as
large as life, because the storyof Jesus is encompassing. And so
(37:20):
we get to speak the presence ofJesus to whomever we're with.
And so, you know the Samaritanwoman, for instance, in John
chapter four, she kind of, Imean, this is one of the most
remarkable encounters in the NewTestament. Evangelism encounters
is that she has thisconversation with Jesus that
really opens things up for her.
(37:41):
And, you know, it ends withlike, she's like, when the
Messiah comes, he's finallygoing to explain everything to
us. And he's like, I who speakto you, am he? And she's like,
Oh, but we don't have shedoesn't She's not saying the
sinners prayer, she's notgetting baptized, she's not
doing any of the things, youknow. And so Jesus rejoins his
(38:01):
disciples. She runs back to thetown, and all she says is, come
and see a man who told meeverything I ever did, and she
doesn't even have a conclusion.
She's like, is this the Messiah?
I don't know. So she speaksabout what she knows and has
experienced, and the scripturesays that at that point, then
the whole town came out to meetJesus. And that to me, if that
(38:26):
doesn't encapsulate, I don'tknow what does. Because there's
not a human on this planet whohas encountered Jesus, who only
really has encountered, we haveonly seen partial glimpses of
him. We don't see the wholething. You know, Dustin said, if
you can understand it orcomprehend it, it's not God. If
we could comprehend, if we couldcomprehend the whole Christ.
It's not Christ for us, but weknow what we have seen and
(38:46):
heard, so we can take thosepieces, and as the spirit moves
us with our neighbors and our coworkers and our friends, family,
whoever who doesn't know theLord, we can just go, do you
know he's a healer? Have you metJesus? You know I one of my
favorite evangelism stories. Ican't remember if it's in this
book or not, but when I was akid, we had this, this is so
(39:07):
great. We had this travelingMinister come through town, and
my pastor was hosting him, andthe guy needed some new shoes,
so they went. They went to alocal shoe dealer at the mall in
our little town, and they'rethere, and he's trying on his
shoes, and he picks out this onepair. And the two of them are
just kind of talking aboutwhatever. And he gets to the
checkout, and the gal rings himup, and it's however many
(39:29):
dollars, and he gives $1 themoney over. She gives him the
change, and then all of asudden, like, he stops, and he
locks eyes with her, and hegoes, have you met Jesus yet.
And she's like, completely takenaback, right? She's like, but
no, and this is the best part ofthe story. He goes, sorry. He
(39:50):
goes, You sure have a lot tolook forward to, don't you? And
he like, he leaves. He flunkedthe evangelism class. He
flunked. It completely. Zero.
Credit, zero credit. You don'tget to know you're out. But it's
so beautiful. It that theelegance of that is so great.
(40:10):
Come see somebody who told meeverything I ever did. Could
this be him? We're justannouncing the presence of
Christ as Christ calls us to andthen we're trusting the Holy
Spirit to deliver the results. Iwould love to know what happened
to that girl and and Joshua,you, you and I will meet her and
high five her one day. That'sthat'll be, that'll be a great
moment. But that, man, you whata thing You sure have a lot to
(40:31):
look forward to is incredible tome, man, that that's the
freedom, that's the freedom thatwe're given. Like, hey, just,
man, just tell them, just saythe name and see what happens.
You know, you're not in chargeof the results.
Unknown (40:46):
I don't know. Man, if, if somebody said that to me, I'm
like, Man, I really want to knowwho this Jesus is, because
there's a lot to look forwardto. Like, I want to look
forward. I want to I want to getthere. Yeah, you go running out
Andrew Arndt (40:57):
of the store. Man, what's crazy to me about the
woman of the well story is thethe good news for her is that
Jesus knew everything about her,everything, hey, all the all the
men that she has married, thethe man that she's living with
that she's not married to, andall so all of her shame and
(41:18):
stuff that She has tried to hidefrom everybody else. The good
news is that Jesus told herabout it, yeah. But the good
news is what she's now seen,yeah, truly seen. That's right,
that's right. And yeah. Andthere's another little wrinkle
there in that text. Now, we'renow, now. Now, it's a couple
preachers riffing on the Biblehere. But he said, The truth is
(41:42):
that you've had five husbands,and the man that you now have is
not quite your husband. So nowwe've got six men in her life
who have failed her, and theseventh will not fail. Yeah. I
mean, the Bridegroom of Israelhas just showed up, and he's
like, gonna put the ring on herfinger. And isn't that the good
news, like, wherever you havesought solace, outside of the
(42:04):
Lord, the Lord is the seventh,and he will not, he will not
fail. He is what you have beenlooking for your entire life.
You know, like to the girl thatin this, in the, you know, have
you met Jesus yet? No, you got alot to look forward to, I, who
speak to you and he, you know,there's something of that in
there. It's
Unknown (42:19):
so good. Yeah, it's so good you got there's this, this
phrase that you said talk aboutin your ascension chapter, you
talk about humanity beingascended, the Ascended humanity,
yeah. And so my question like,What? Okay, unpack that for me a
little bit. And what is the whatis ascended humanity look like?
Andrew Arndt (42:38):
Yeah. I mean, it looks like a humanity that has
been taken into the heavenlyrealms. That this is Paul's
language, you know, he says thatwe have been seated with him and
the heavenly places. And so wealways talked about in the
evangelical movement, dying andgoing to be with Jesus in heaven
(42:58):
when you die. And I've beentempted for a long time just to
be like, that's not in the NewTestament. Get that language out
of here. But the truth is thatwhen you look at the New
Testament, the language isactually there just means
something different than wemeet. So the New Testament says,
Oh yeah, no, you do go, you dodie, and go to be with Jesus in
heaven when you die. And thedeath is your baptism, and
(43:20):
heaven is heaven as it takesplace. In the midst of this
world, you're seated withChrist. So there's a sense in
which, because Christ, Jesus,has taken our flesh into the
heavenly realms, and that is acompleted, perfected flesh, and
we are of that flesh. That meansthat, by the Spirit, over the
course of our lives, what we doas we're sanctified is that we
continue to manifest thatperfected humanity to people,
(43:42):
and that perfected humanity iseverything that the gospel is
calling us to, which is thatwe're kind and compassionate and
we're good to one another, andwe're solicitous of the poor,
and we speak truth to power. Doyou know what I mean? Like we're
making manifest humanity ashumanity was always intended to
be. We're reigning as kings withJesus. We're regal and what we
(44:06):
are, so we're living the waythat God intended us to live. So
die and go to be with Jesus inheaven. Yep, but that's already
happened. So the trick for us isthen to continue kind of that
trajectory of selfmortification, where we continue
to die to ourselves, so that thelife of the Spirit can be more
and more made manifest, thatperfected life of the Spirit can
(44:26):
be more manifest in us. So it'sfunny, you know, when you start
digging apart all these peelingapart, all these layers of the
Jesus story, just how relevantthey are. And the cool thing
about, you know, the ascensionthing, is that it's nothing that
we have to do. I mean, I thinkeverybody like we're one of the
words that you hear a lot inculture now is like
optimization. Everybody's tryingto optimize for something. We're
(44:49):
trying to optimize our health,or optimize, you know, our
nutrition, or optimize ourcareer and blah, blah, blah.
Well, what that is, is that'sthe old, like the ancient,
ancient philosophy. All. Used totalk about this, the kind of
ladder of ascent. So the idea isthat by your own effort, you
could kind of climb up into theheavens. Somehow there was,
like, you know what I mean, likethat peak experience. So we're
(45:10):
just doing that same thing in anew key in the 21st century. But
the amazing thing about thegospel is the gospel doesn't say
that you you have to climb upthere by your effort. The Gospel
says, Oh no, Jesus alreadydragged your stupid butt up in
the heavens. You're alreadythere. And as you were to live
with Him and walk with Him andrest in him like that, life will
(45:30):
be more and more manifest. Andyou don't have any you don't
have to do anything to ascend.
You just have to keep comingwith Jesus. And it's
Unknown (45:36):
going to happen, man, we've been living life so small.
Yeah, we don't get this. We'vebeen living life so small, the
life so much bigger. It alwaysjust shocks me that I have been
like, lifted up into theheavens, that I'm a co heir with
Christ, that I'm writing likethat is dumbfounding like me,
(45:59):
like, really? Yeah, humans,yeah. So it's just, it's just
crazy, like, this is a big lifethat we could live. We could
live a big, big life. It's
Andrew Arndt (46:11):
a big life that's free from the stress of thinking
that there's something that weneed to do to get where we need
to go. But we're just, my yokeis easy and my burden is light,
like believing that he's alreadydone it all for us. The task is
just to love the Lord our Godwith all our heart, soul, mind
and strength, love our neighborsourselves, keep company with
Jesus, and the life will be mademanifest in us. It's so it's so
(46:33):
liberating. It takes us out ofthe realm of, I'll call it law,
and into the realm of gospel.
And when I say law, I just thinkabout all the ways in which that
logic of if you do these things,then these things will happen
for you that is pervasive, notjust in religious culture, but
it's pervasive in secularculture. You know, the way that
the gurus of self optimizationare talking now is it's like,
(46:54):
well, if you get your fitnessjust right, and you get your
career just right, and you getyour friends just right, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, and youcan listen to podcast 24/7, 365,
until you're dizzy, trying tooptimize your life and be more
empty than when you started.
What if you just believed it isfinished? He did it. You're
good, you're good, you're goodas you are. You're good, and
(47:15):
just keep walking. You know,there's a whole different logic
in the Gospel. It's soliberating,
Unknown (47:19):
it's so good. It's so beautiful. I love Jesus. No, I
love Jesus too, man. So call if,if people pick up a strange and
gracious light, what is yourhope for the readers? What? What
do you hope
Andrew Arndt (47:34):
to bring about?
Yeah, it's what I'm hoping formy readers. Is the same thing
that I hope for my congregationevery time I preach to them, and
it's just that they would seethat in Christ, Jesus, it's the
unfathomable Depths of God, youknow, and that everything in
their life is touched that's allaccounted for in who Jesus is,
and that there's nothing thatthey can encounter or go through
(47:54):
that is not the word of thegospel, is not spoken over that.
And my congregation is going tobe sick of me saying it, but I
say it all the time, and I'mgoing to say it until they
believe it. You know, SecondCorinthians, 120 no matter how
many promises God has made,they're all yes in Christ, and
through him, the Amen is spokenby us to the glory of God. You
know, God says yes in Christ,Jesus, and we say amen, and the
(48:16):
magic happens. So I just, I hopethat any reader of this book
would just have a broaderimagination for who Jesus is for
them and who Jesus is for theworld, and that they'd fall in
love with Jesus again and beinspired to carry him out of the
highways and the byways of theirlife, and maybe to say, maybe to
say to some cashier, you know,you got a lot to look forward to
and see what the Spirit doeswith that. I'd
Unknown (48:40):
love to get some recommendations from you. So
anything you've been reading orwatching lately, you could
recommend
Andrew Arndt (48:45):
reading or watching. Man, I you know, I'm
working on a new book onAugustine's confessions. It's
like a 40 day devotionalcommentary based on this great
Christian classic. So I've beenup to my eyeballs reading
Augusta and scholarly literatureand the confession. So if
anybody's interested in that,I'll give them the reading list.
(49:07):
And I don't know, what are wewhat are we watching? These
days, my kids have started theirsecond watch through the Netflix
series Stranger Things, which Ijust loved and thought was,
like, the greatest thing I'dever seen, partially because I'm
a child of the 80s, and I waslike, they nailed it. They
nailed it, definitely nailed it.
And so they're watching itthrough again, and we're doing
that with them as we can, andloving every second of it. So
modern health, those are thethings, I suppose,
Unknown (49:30):
awesome. Where would you like to point people to? How
can they get three and somegracious lights
Andrew Arndt (49:35):
available online wherever books are sold. Amazon
is supposed to be the bestplace. And if you get it on
Amazon and read it, leave, leavea good, honest review. That
helps. And you might also seethis brick and mortar bookstores
as well. I think it's going tosome barns and mobiles,
depending on where you are, butI think online is the best
Unknown (49:53):
way. Great, great. Can anybody? Yeah, just follow you
and maybe read. Need anythingelse that you're writing, how
can they? Yeah, yeah,
Andrew Arndt (50:03):
on x and Instagram. I'm at the Andrew,
aren't sub stack? Uh, I've beendoing that pretty consistently
for last year and a half. Itslowed down some with the new
project I'm working on. But ifyou just look up, Andrew, aren't
on sub stack, I'm there, andsame thing on Facebook. So would
love to connect.
Unknown (50:18):
Great. Well, Andrew, thank you for this. Thank you
for like opening up the gospelof Jesus for us and just to
really revel in the beauty ofwho he is, what he's done, that
he interacts with every aspectof our life, that he is good
news. And the good news is notjust about where we go after we
die, but it is good news for ourdaily lives, even in the midst
(50:41):
of pain and destruction anddifficulty, his presence can be
felt and be among us and that wecould be with him in our life.
And man, Jesus is amazing, andthis conversation was amazing.
So thank you for this. I lovedit. Man, thanks for having me.
I appreciate it. Yeah.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.