May 12, 2025 • 57 mins
Today we're talking about something that impacts all of us - our calling and how we can pursue meaningful work without burning out. I'm sitting down with Arianna Molloy, author of "Healthy Calling," to unpack what it really means to live out our purpose without getting crushed by pressure and expectations. We'll explore some critical questions: What does calling really look like? How do we recognize our unique gifts? And most importantly, how can we stay passionate about our work without losing ourselves in the process? Whether you're a pastor feeling overwhelmed, a professional struggling with workplace stress, or someone trying to figure out your next career move, this conversation offers practical wisdom about finding purpose and maintaining your energy. Arianna brings incredible insights from her research and personal journey that will help you reframe how you think about work, calling, and your own potential. So join us as we discover how we can live out our calling without burning out.
Arianna is a Communication professor at Biola University, where she designs and teaches Organizational Communication courses. She has also partnered with Biola’s Office of Faculty Advancement, leading the Pedagogy Development Consulting program. Her research focuses on meaningful work, work as a calling, and the link between humility and burnout, with publications in premier journals such as the International Journal of Business Communication and Communication Studies. One of her collaborations won “Article of the Year” in the Journal of Management, Spirituality, and Religion. She views her role as a professor through the lens of being a mentor who loves to learn. While she’s been honored with awards like Biola’s Provost Award for “Excellence in Teaching” and the “Faculty Excellence” award, her deepest joy comes from witnessing the transformation in her students' lives.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Arianna Molloy (00:00):
If I mess up.
(00:00):
Oh, well, I cannot let that bethe defining factor of whether
(00:03):
or not I live out the callingGod's given me, because it's not
about me. And so I think that'spart of that humility factor. If
I'm so consumed with my ownweaknesses, I am thinking about
myself. Guess another word forthat is pride. You can be
prideful about what you're goodat, and you can be super
prideful about what you'reterrible at.
Joshua Johnson (00:35):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost, Joshua Johnson, today
we're talking about somethingthat impacts all of us, our
calling and how we can pursuemeaningful work without burning
out. I'm sitting down withAriana Malloy, author of healthy
(00:57):
calling, to unpack what itreally means to live out our
purpose without getting crushedby pressure and expectations.
We'll explore some criticalquestions, what does calling
really look like? How do werecognize our unique gifts and
most importantly, how can westay passionate about our work
without losing ourselves in theprocess? Whether you're a pastor
(01:17):
feeling overwhelmed, aprofessional struggling with
workplace stress, or someonetrying to figure out your next
career move, this conversationoffers practical wisdom about
finding purpose and maintainingyour energy. Ariana brings
incredible insights from herresearch and personal journey
that will help you reframe howdo you think about work calling
(01:38):
and your own potential? So joinus as we discover how we could
live out our calling withoutburning out. Here's my
conversation with Ariana Malloy.
Ariana, welcome shiftingculture. Really excited to have
you on. Thanks for joining me.
Arianna Molloy (01:52):
I'm so thrilled to be here and to chat with you
and all the others. We want
Joshua Johnson (01:56):
to talk about your book healthy calling, and
how to have a calling in whichyou can work in a healthy way,
not that doesn't lead toburnout. So we don't have
burnout. Burnout is horrible andleads to all sorts of problems,
and we see especially now. Imean, you look in the ministry
space, pastors are are burningout left and right. You look in
(02:21):
the workplace, there's highrates of depression and anxiety
everywhere. It feels like thisis something that is more
prevalent than ever. But beforewe dive into all of those
burnout things, since we aretalking about calling, I'd love
to just explore yours. What wasyour calling like when you think
(02:43):
of calling? What is it?
Arianna Molloy (02:45):
Yeah. So first of all, when we're talking about
a calling, we have todistinguish what type of calling
are we talking about. So asbelievers, we all are called.
Our primary calling is to loveGod and love others. So that's
what we're all called to do isto love God and love others.
Now, there are specific ways inour lives that when we do that,
(03:07):
when we are loving God andloving others, it also ignites a
particular skill set or passionthat we have, and so theologians
and social scientists will callthat a secondary calling. So our
primary calling is to love Godand love others. And our
secondary calling is there arecertain places in our life,
whether it be work, paid work,unpaid work, relationships,
(03:28):
service, ministry, differentthings, that when we're doing
those, it actually feels like weare worshiping the Lord in a
sweet spot kind of way. Okay, sojust to distinguish that. So for
me, I think that my first senseof calling was to be a daughter.
I just love my parents, and Irealized that's a very
(03:48):
privileged perspective. They arenot perfect people, but I I grew
up in a home where my parentsgrew up in sort of
dysfunctional, is not the notthe right word, but homes that
were very fractured, but theychose to do something different.
And so they committed to eachother, to to love each other and
love me well, and I did feelloved. And so I just remember
(04:12):
knowing God's love through them.
And they are exceptional people.
And so when I was a freshman incollege and I had no idea what
major to choose. I remembercoming home and visiting them
and being like, can I just be aprofessional daughter? Because I
totally know how to do that, youknow. And so I think I felt that
sense. I also felt really calledto be a good friend.
(04:34):
Relationships are a highpriority to me. I was the last
person in my social group to getmarried. And so I think in my
single years, I sort ofprobably, in an almost unhealthy
way, was really there for myfriends. And so I because I had
extra time, and I had extra, youknow, hours, and so I really was
there for all of my people. AndI'm an only child, so my friends
(04:57):
are like family to me. So to me,they're the. Relationships that
I pour into. So I felt reallycalled to that. I felt really
called to be a mentor. I startedmentoring in high school and
then in college, and then postcollege, and to me when we can
see people who are a little bitafter us, who need to be seen
(05:19):
and heard and encouraged andhelp them feel like they are not
alone. That is what the body ofChrist is all about, you know.
So I felt very called to that.
But the reason I'm kind of goingin a circle is I had no clue
what to do at my job, you know,like I just couldn't I couldn't
imagine sitting behind a deskall day. That didn't seem right
for me. But I also likestructure and reliability, but I
(05:39):
also like adventure, and I don'treally want to have to be
accountable to other people allthe time, but I like being part
of a team, and so it took me awhile to realize that one way I
could feel called in my work isto be a professor. And I
remember, actually I got mymasters, and I really enjoyed
that. I worked in a churchafterwards, which was a terrible
(06:01):
experience. We can talk aboutthat or not. I worked for a non
profit, which was a lovelyexperience. But for both, I was
a little bit I was a little bitbored, and again, I was single
at the time, so I'm like, okay,what can I do to, you know,
really take advantage of my lifeand adventure. And I thought, if
I can get a full ridescholarship, why not get a PhD?
I don't know what for. I evenremember I had a phenomenal
(06:24):
Master's experience, graduateexperience, and when I was
applying for my PhD, I remembera well meaning person. I'm not,
I won't call her a friendnecessarily, took me to lunch
and said, hey, you know, I don'tthink you have what it takes to
go to get your PhD. I just wantto, I just want to help you out
and just let you know I don'tthink you ought to do that. I
(06:45):
just remember feeling sodevastated, you know, because I
didn't quite know what else todo, but it felt like that was
the thing to do. And and thenwithin that same week, I was
driving on the freeway inSeattle, which is where I'm I'm
from originally. I rememberexactly where I was, and I got a
phone call from my top choiceuniversity that I got a full
ride scholarship, and I had topull over because I was like,
(07:06):
wait, what? Amazing, yeah. Andso I got my PhD, but I honestly
didn't even know what I wasgoing to do with it. And so I
the third year of my PhD, I waswalking on campus, and for this
program, you get to teachundergrads and then also take
classes. And I remember I was Iwas praying over I was a very
secular university, and I waspraying over my classrooms, just
(07:27):
laying hands on the on the seatsand the doorways. And I was
walking along the campus, and Isaw these freshmen with their
parents, and I saw the look ontheir face of trying to be
brave, but also very scared, andI called my parents, and I said,
I think I'm supposed to be aprofessor. And so, you know,
there's more to the story aboutwhere the Lord would call me. He
(07:48):
called me to Biola, and I didn'twant to be in California, so
that was a whole thing. But Ithink my calling has been very
process based. And I would say,while I feel called to be a
professor. It's very importantto distinguish that should the
Lord ever move me to somethingelse, I can still enact that
calling, which has to do withcollaborative learning, speaking
before large groups, andspeaking one on one, mentorship
(08:11):
and, you know, partialindependence with team based
work as well. So I think one ofthe things about calling is we
get distracted by the label andwe forget that it's about the
thing that we get to do that's
Joshua Johnson (08:25):
so good, it's about the thing that we get to
do. And you just name the thingsthat you feel these are your
callings right? CollaborativeLearning, speaking in front of
large groups, these types ofthings. This is your calling.
And it can be as a professor inBiola, but maybe you're going to
be called somewhere else to beable to do those sort of things
(08:47):
that are your purpose. How didyou find those are the things
that you are called to, nomatter what vocation you're in?
Oh,
Arianna Molloy (08:57):
such a good question. Totally by trial and
error. It was a lot of likedoing internships or job
shadowing or networking. I did alot of informational interviews.
So I asked to meet people whowere doing work that I was
fascinated by, pastoral work,psychology, all these things,
even like someone who workedwith like animal training and
(09:18):
shelter, you know, pet shelters,and I just asked them about
their work, and I learned what Ididn't like and what I did like.
And then I did some, you know,jobs. I worked at a radio
station, which, oh my gosh, Iloved that so much, but I
learned about the things Ididn't like, and in the moment
that felt defeating, but lookingback, it was refining. I learned
about the things that I was goodat. And in the moment, I didn't
(09:42):
have a name for it, I thoughteveryone could do these things.
And then in in retrospect, Irealized, no, no, no, this is
God's fingerprint on me, and toown that. And so I think that I
learned it along the way, and Ialso had wise counselors. That I
pursued. They didn't pursue menecessarily. I have to go pursue
(10:03):
them and say, Hey, what do youthink about this as an idea?
And, you know, get theirfeedback on that as well.
Joshua Johnson (10:10):
You know, yesterday or maybe two days ago,
my parents were here, my son'sspring break, and my dad is
working on something aboutpeople in the in the marketplace
work, and work is calling, andhe's gonna do a whole program,
and he is seeing that people arereally confused with the word
(10:30):
calling, yeah, when it comes towork and ministry. And I think
that calling is reserved forministry, and then work is just
something that you do. Can youhelp us define what is calling
as a whole life, and not just inregards to ministry or as
(10:55):
regards to work? How could wesee it holistically, that there
is a calling all the time foreverybody, whatever they're
doing,
Arianna Molloy (11:04):
absolutely and again, primary calling to love
God and love others. So we askcan ask ourselves every day,
Okay, Lord, how can I? How can Idemonstrate my love to you? And
who are the people that I can dothat to as well? You know? But
that secondary calling requiresa bit of bravery. It requires a
bit of vulnerability to thinkabout, what are you good at and
(11:25):
what do you care about? Now, asit relates to calling in the
workplace, I've done a lot ofresearch with this, interviewed
a ton of people, and I'm aqualitative researcher, so I'm a
social scientist, and I wouldsay across the board, whether
you're a believer or not, peoplecan feel called, and absolutely
no one profession owns that. Soyou can talk to doctors, they
(11:47):
feel called, stay at home,parents. They can feel called
custodial staff and constructionworkers, beauticians, artists,
lawyers, financial advisors,athletes, teachers. They feel
called. So we have to stopgiving an inflated hierarchy to
people who are in explicitministry. Now that kind of
(12:08):
calling does perform faith in aunique way that can lend itself
to a unique type of burnout. SoI want to be clear that that is
there's a lot of pressure there,but if you were to talk to
health professionals who seepeople dying and hurting every
day physically, you can't tellme that they are not burnt out,
or that they don't feel thatcalling. I've interviewed them,
(12:30):
I've worked with them, I'veconsulted with them. So I think
we need to be careful not toshow a kind of favoritism that
way. But here's there are fourthings that happen when we
experience work now, I'm talkingabout anything that you do on a
daily basis or a routine basisthat requires mental and
emotional exertion. So itdoesn't have to be paid work. It
(12:52):
can be any kind of endeavor thatyou're doing. There are four
things that need to happen thatact that that fall into the
definition of work as a calling.
The first is that you find itmeaningful. So this could, and
that's very subjective, right? Imean, my mother can plant a
plant, and just by being aroundthe plant, it blossoms. I mean,
she has a green thumb. Likenobody's business. I kill
(13:12):
plants. It's not that I don'tlike them. I don't know what
they're saying. You know, if itwas an animal or a person, I
could totally key in on that,but I'm a terrible plant
gardener person, but it'smeaningful to her. I love
hearing people's stories. Icould sit and have a coffee with
someone all day long. Give me 12people back to back, and I would
(13:34):
be all about it. I love it. I'dbe exhausted at the end, but it
fills my cup. That would not bethe case for everybody you know.
So it's meaningful. The secondthing is that you can identify a
caller now as Christians, that'sGod, but there's a lot of people
that I've interviewed who arenot identifiers as Christians,
and so they might think theuniverse is calling them. They
might feel like their internalself is calling them. They might
(13:56):
feel like an artist, her paintbrush is calling her, or a
musician, his guitar is callinghim, or a teacher, the classroom
itself is calling her, and soyou can identify that. And the
reason that's important is thatcalling is about relationship.
So identifying a caller isidentifying this feeling of
something pulling you in acertain direction. The third
(14:20):
thing is that you're using yourpassion and your skill set. I
don't know about you, but whenI'm given an opportunity to do
something, well, gosh, it feelsgood like it feels to do
something you're good at. I'mpretty good at event planning. I
don't like it. And so one of thethings that you'll find is that
you can do something you're goodat for a while, but long term
motivation does not live in thatplane. You also have to care
(14:43):
about it. Now. You can't justcare about it because it feels
terrible to like something, butlike be really bad at it. It
just like it doesn't work. Youneed both of those things. And I
think that in this sort of toolbelt society. So the newest
generation that we're thinkingabout as they enter college,
they're the tool beltgeneration. They want to acquire
(15:04):
skills, and they want to applythem. I think that we've done a
disservice in the way we talkabout college as other because
college is where you get youlearn about those skills. You
get to have a trial and errorapplying them, and then you get
to go out there and do more ofit, but you have to have that
skill set and passion. You canthink of someone who feels
(15:24):
called to be a surgeon. Theywouldn't go into the surgery
room on day one and be like,well, where's the knife? You
know, they they have to train.
And I think apprenticeship is soimportant, we've lost the art of
apprenticeship. But this, thisfourth thing is also really
important. This is therelational part as well. It's
something we call in the socialsciences pro social behavior,
(15:46):
and it's other focus. So acalling will always, always be
about how you impact others. Andso that's different than a
hobby, which is fine, and youcan still experience a
worshipfulness in doing a hobbythat's between you and God, but
a calling is necessarilyrelational. It has to be a
(16:07):
relationship with the caller. Weknow that as God, the called
ourselves and the community thatwe serve. And the reason that
this is important is thatburnout from a calling happens
when we feel this pull towardsrelationships with God or with
others, because we know we canmake a difference, but we are
tired and we've run out. So
Joshua Johnson (16:28):
when I when I have a sense of calling, I know
and I'm in my sweet spot.
There's purpose. I'm moving in adirection that I think that I
could have an impact in thisworld. I have a relationship
with the caller. How do I movetowards burnout? Like, why am I
moving so much? Becauseeverything about it feels good.
Yeah, I'm excited to work inthis space. I'm excited to be
(16:52):
here, but if I exert too much, Iget towards burnout. How do how
do we move towards burnout like?
What does it look like? What isburnout? Okay,
Arianna Molloy (17:03):
well, the quick answer, and then I'll unpack it.
The quick answer is, when webecome so distracted with the
calling that we forget that thepoint is the caller. We go
towards burnout when we are sofocused on the pursuit of our
calling that we forget about therelationships that we have with
ourselves. Are we getting enoughsleep? Are we eating well? Are
(17:25):
we getting enough exercise,like, are we Doom scrolling at
night rather than to going tobed when we should with our
caller? Have we spent time withhim today? Are we allowing him
to soften our hearts wherecynicism so easily corrodes and
then relationship with thecommunity. Are we showing up for
the people that we've committedto? Is our community? Are we?
(17:46):
Are we just kind of around sortof cynical and sarcastic people
too much, where they'recorroding our calling, which is
really easy to do. We go fromventing, which is necessary to
complaining which is harmful.
And so I would say that's theshort answer is, when we get
distracted with calling insteadof caller. The longer answer is
a little more complicated,because a lot of things can
impact it. There are thingsoutside of our control. Life
(18:08):
circumstances I know, for me, inthe last three or four years, my
family experienced significanthealth trauma that had lots of
ER visits and terminal diagnosesand actually loss of life that
was, that was a life burnout.
(18:28):
And even though my my work wasfine, it, of course, is going to
impact my work. And I don't havecontrol over those things. We
don't always have control over aboss that's difficult, or, if
you think about a pastor, acongregation that's just
complaining all the time, weknow or or an epidemic that's
happening, and the health thehealth care professionals are
(18:49):
dealing with that, or ineducation, there's not enough
monetary support. We don'talways have control over that.
Here are the two things we havecontrol over, okay, workaholism
and job Idolization. And what Iwhat I hope we can key in on is,
yes, when you feel called toyour work, when that happens,
you're actually the mostmotivated, the most satisfied,
(19:10):
the most resilient than anyother peer group, so more than
people who approach it as a jobor a career. If you feel called,
you're the one people want inthe room. You make everything
better. The problem is you arealso the most prone to burnout,
more than any other group. Youare the most prone to burnout,
and that kind of burnout, thecalling burnout, is different
(19:32):
than regular burnout. So
Joshua Johnson (19:34):
then let's take both workaholics, yeah, and
people idolize their job. If Ilook at the people who have
suffered burnout. One of thefactors that I have seen is that
they believe that the work isthrough them, like it's required
that they are there or the workdoesn't get done. They see
(19:56):
themselves as the most importantthing. In the room for whatever
this work is. How is thatimpacting burnout, and how do we
move away from our own selfimportance? Yeah, in our
calling. Because I don't knowabout you, but when I feel
(20:16):
called, I feel like it's mycalling. It somewhat does
revolve around me. Totally.
Arianna Molloy (20:22):
Yeah. So I talk a lot about this in my book,
but, and again, I almost wishthat this wasn't the answer,
because it's it's not thatexciting, and it doesn't sound
as thrilling, but the researchshows that the way to have a
healthy calling is to dig deepinto the virtue of humility.
Joshua Johnson (20:41):
Oh, humility. Oh yes,
Arianna Molloy (20:45):
that old thing, you know. So I was experiencing
burnout my first timeprofessionally, not including
like grad school, which is not asustainable experience anyway.
But when I got my job at Biola,I got, I started to get
opportunities that were awesome.
And I know this is a terriblyprivileged problem, but like, I
had all these coolopportunities. People wanted me
(21:06):
to be a part of committees andteach overloads and do guest
speaking, and I saw thedifference I could make in
students lives, and it wasthrilling, and it was wonderful.
And I remember waking up in themiddle of the night one night my
third year, and my heart wasjust pounding, and I was like,
clammy, and I felt just sort ofcynical and like just sort of
that, that joy was gone. And Istarted doing a checklist in my
(21:30):
mind of, Okay, what does thismean? Because I've been studying
this for a while, and I realizedI'm experiencing some burnout.
So I went to the dean of myschool and said, I think I'm
really getting burnt out. I wasplanning a wedding at the time.
I mean, it was all it was allthe things. And he said, Okay,
let me help you figure out whatyou can say no to and what you
can say yes to. And we found aresearch fellowship where for an
entire semester I could have ahalf course load. You know, I
(21:52):
love teaching. It's literally mypassion, but to cut it in half,
and then I could study thistheme that these scholars from
across the world were studying.
I didn't even pay attention towhat it was I show up the first
day, we're sitting in thesecherry wood furniture, blush
leather chairs with good food,and all these intellectuals are
(22:14):
in the room, and I'm so excited.
And turns out it's abouthumility. And for an entire
semester, we were studying whattheologians, psychologists,
organizational, communicationscholars, are talking about with
humility. And what began tohappen? I had no intention of
combining that with my ownresearch on calling, but what
began to happen is, as we weretalking about the criteria of
humility, distinguishing thatbetween passivity and modesty,
(22:36):
which are not the same thing, Iwas thinking about all of the
people that I've interviewed whomanaged to have a healthy
calling, who either got towardsburnout and then got out of it,
or really primarily avoided it.
And it was exactly what humilityis. It literally overlaid on top
(22:58):
of it. So I published some someresearch and really began
understanding that the way to ahealthy calling is by
prioritizing humility. Well, howdo you do that? Because it's
kind of like to pursue humility,like, can you humble? And you
know all the
Joshua Johnson (23:10):
things? Well, my wife tells me multiple times a
week that I'm so humble. She'ssaying it sarcastically, but,
yeah, she does tell me all thetime.
Arianna Molloy (23:20):
So this, there's a lot more to say about it, and
I do talk about it in the book alot more, but we could boil it
down to three things. You canlook at it through Scripture.
It's evidence there, because alltruth is God's truth, right? So
what the social scientists arefinding out about humility not a
surprise to God. This wasalready there in the Bible, but
it's that you know yourstrengths and your weaknesses.
That's the first one, and you'renot distracted by either one.
(23:42):
Okay, so this is reallyimportant. You are clear on what
you're good at, but that's notwhat drives you you're also
clear on where you need to grow,but that's not what holds you
back. You know what you're goodat, and you know where you need
to grow, and it's not the thingyou focus on. And the way to to
kind of live in that space is tolive in gratitude, to thank the
(24:04):
Lord for what he has done andwhat he will do. I remember my
first my second year, actually,I think it was my second year in
my job at Biola. Yes, it was. Iwas nominated for an award for
Most Outstanding Professor. Youdon't usually get nominated for
this in that early in yourcareer. I have a phenomenal I
had a phenomenal boss at thetime, Dr Todd Lewis, and he
(24:25):
nominated me, and I got the Igot the award. And when he told
me he was so excited, I had donea terrible job that day
teaching, and so I was, I waslike, Oh, wow. And I pointed out
to him the things that I haddone terribly. And he said,
Stop, don't do that. I see thegood in you, and when you reject
it, you're not only insultingme, but you're not giving an
(24:46):
opportunity for God to beglorified. And so I had to take
a minute to realize like mytendency is not to be distracted
by my strengths, is to bedistracted by my weaknesses, and
maybe that's a way of trying tonot be prideful. But regardless.
Just, I have to just, like, letit go and just say, Thank You
God you know, and not hold on toit. So the second part of
humility is a lifestyle oflearning. We know that Jesus was
(25:09):
called rabbi and teacher. Weknow that wisdom means that you
recognize you don't knoweverything. It is the fear of
knowledge. It's knowing, hey,there's more I need to know. And
you can even use this as adiagnostic of like, am I being
defensive in this meeting rightnow? Huh? Am I unwilling to
learn something new? Do I thinkthat I know the best way?
(25:31):
Because that's not humility. Wehave to be open to the fact that
there's more than one way to dosomething, that there's more
that we're going to need toknow, and that when someone
gives us a new idea, it does notthreaten what we already know.
The third thing about humilityis that humility allows you to
take a pause from what you'redoing, because you know that you
(25:51):
are not the linchpin, right? Youare not God. It's very clear on
the role of who God is. And sothat third part of humility is
that Sabbath thing. It's saying,You know what, if I walk away
and things fall apart, I'mprobably not leading Well
anyway, I need to be able totake a moment and take a breath,
because to truly keep growing,to lean into those first two
parts of humility, we have totake time to reflect and
(26:14):
reflection not happen when youwithout pausing to examine
what's going on in Life. So Iwould say the way to protect
that sense of healthy calling iswe have to make sure that we are
aware of what we're good at, sothat we're not incompetent we
can contribute, not getdistracted by our weaknesses,
keep learning and regularlybuild in moments where we pause
(26:37):
from the chaos and cacophony ofthe noises around us, including
the visual noise of screens andsocial media that we pause and
quiet our hearts to listen forwhat the Lord the Holy Spirit
may be wanting us to see andknow. How did
Joshua Johnson (26:51):
you move past the place where you focus too
much on your weaknesses? I won'tput anything on you because I
we're we just met, but I feellike we know each other before
we know each other already. Butokay, so if you're covering
things up, sometimes you'resaying, I have some weaknesses.
What that does to a lot ofpeople when they're workaholics
(27:14):
is that they they're they'rejust covering up their
weaknesses through workingreally hard and letting people
see their strengths and not seetheir weaknesses. How did you
start to open up and be okaywith saying I do have some
weaknesses, and it's okay and Idon't have to focus on them. I
(27:35):
could say those are theweaknesses, but I do have
strengths, and I'm able to workwell, even despite my
weaknesses. Yeah,
Arianna Molloy (27:44):
good, yeah. I think my tendency wasn't, and
isn't, to cover up. It's to holdback. It's to not, it's not it's
to not lean in, to not sit atthe table, it's to not take
advantage of opportunities. Andso I think for me, the
weaknesses, when I'm aware of myweaknesses, I'm very hard on
myself, and then I don't say yesto opportunities God's given me,
(28:08):
I take myself out of the game.
And so one of the things that'shelped me get over that is the
fact that it's not about me, soif I mess up, oh well, I cannot
let that be the defining factorof whether or not I live out the
calling God's given me, becauseit's not about me. And so I
think that's part of thathumility factor. If I'm so
consumed with my own weaknesses,I am thinking about myself.
(28:30):
Guess another word for that ispride. You can be prideful about
what you're good at, and you canbe super prideful about what
you're terrible at. It's just aself focus. And so I think for
me, I do have to, on a weeklybasis, take stock of where I
feel like I have failed. And Idon't know where that message
came from. It certainly didn'tcome from my parents. I just
(28:50):
innately have a awareness oflike, here's where I want to be
and here's where I actually was,which is lower. And wow, that's
a bummer. You know, I confess toyou that my natural mindset is a
fixed mindset rather than agrowth mindset. Fixed Mindset
sees failure as devastating.
Growth Mindset sees failure asan opportunity to learn. But I
think that I have intentionally,it's not a natural thing, but I
(29:14):
intentionally say, Well, this isan opportunity to learn, and I
do love to learn, so perhapsthat Learning Mode is there?
But, you know, yeah, I mean, Ithink just forgiving yourself,
and for me, if I'm so focused onmy weaknesses, the alarm in my
mind is, oh, I'm thinking aboutmyself. That's not the point
here. Can God speak throughdonkeys? Can God speak through
(29:35):
the rocks? The rocks will cryout. Can God work through people
who are lacking in confidence?
Absolutely and so I try just tobe like, Yeah, I see you. I see
you. Imposter syndrome, you'rewelcome to stay, but you have to
sit in the corner. I'm not evengonna wait for you to leave. I'm
gonna just keep going. I think
Joshua Johnson (29:52):
some people think when they think of healthy
calling, or they think ofhealthy work, and they think of
a work life balance, butsometimes. Sometimes moving into
like, healthy work is not abouthaving the right balance of
saying, I'm gonna just work, youknow, 50% of the time, I'm gonna
do this a certain amount oftime, and just get everything in
(30:13):
the right position and the rightpercentage, and then I'm going
to be okay. So if it's not justbalance and percentage, then
what does it look like whenwe're like, working hard but not
moving towards burnout? How dowe work hard without burning
out? Oh
Arianna Molloy (30:32):
gosh, these are such good questions. I love
them. They're really they'reyou're really keying in on some
things that are not examinedoften. And that's the whole
point here, is to take apart,taken for granted, assumptions.
So several things. One is, weall have different capacities.
So I'm married to an Enneagramthree. He has an amazing high
(30:52):
capacity. He loves to be busy.
He loves to use every part ofthe toothpaste tube, you know,
squeeze it out, roll it to thevery end, like, he will
literally, like, shake thetoothpaste on toothpaste. I
mean, I think I have a highcapacity, probably in comparison
to to, you know, other folks ingeneral. But within academics,
my capacity is very medium. Ineed to rest and restore. And I
(31:14):
know that about myself. So Ithink part of it is really
getting comfortable to what yourcapacity is and not apologizing
for it. We could go into thewhole conversation of, how do
you rest? Because also learningthe types of rest that you need
is important. There's seventypes of rest, and if you need
to key in on which one willactually restore you, that's
(31:36):
important. So for my husband tosit still, usually not a good
choice for him. He doesn'tthat's, that's not restorative,
but to be, to be creative, toplay, to do dynamic rest, where
he's doing something otherthat's fun. Fun for him is
restorative. Contemplativenature is restorative to me. So
Joshua Johnson (31:56):
how do you do this? So we'll keep on with this
conversation. But how do we howdo you do that? So think of
Sabbath, yeah, for you and rest.
So if you have contemplativenature, and your husband likes
to play and really get after it,yeah, how do you do it together?
How do you connect and rest atthe same time?
Arianna Molloy (32:16):
Great question.
The third year of our marriage,we were sitting in a Taiwan
hotel lobby area having tea.
It's called asleep, if anyone'sbeen there before in Taiwan, my
mother, my husband's Chinese,Taiwanese, and my mother in law
had her husband had just passedaway, and so had gone there to
take her back home. And we wereexhausted, and it was the middle
(32:38):
of summer, and it is stickythere. I mean, you get out of
the shower and you're like, IWhy don't I even shower? I'm
already sticking so we've beenworking really hard, and we
decided to take a break. And welove we travel quite a bit, and
we love to actually have hightea wherever we travel in the
world, because tea is donedifferently and and it's just a
fun cultural moment where youcan kind of relax and also take
(32:58):
part in in what's happening inthat context. And we were
chatting about this because wehad committed to sabbathing
together when we got married. Ihad started sabbathing prior to
that. He hadn't really done thatin a routine way, but he was
like, I want to do it. And wejust were having a lot of
challenge doing that together.
One of us was never that excitedabout it. And so we sat there
and we actually talked throughGary Thomas's sacred pathways of
(33:20):
how you feel close to God, andjust identified, what are the
ways that you feel close to God.
And that's not exactly the samething as Sabbath, but it can
inform you on things to do. Andso we drew on a napkin, like,
how do we do this together? Andso we still try to figure it
out. I mean, it's also reallyhard to do when you have
children, sometimes we'll taketurns. So sometimes it's every
(33:42):
other Sabbath. It'll be like theway that I Sabbath and he'll do
it with me and the way that heSabbaths, and I'll do it with
him. Or sometimes we'll do halfthe day the way I restore, and
the other half that he restores.
And because Sabbath is also arelational act, I think we
confuse Sabbath with solitude,because they often go together,
but they're not actually thesame. And this is why, I think,
when I was single and I wastrying to Sabbath, it was also
(34:05):
really hard, because I oftenfound myself lonely, and we
don't do a good job as thechurch sabbathing together. It
should be a relational acttogether. So I would say that.
And then, you know, as a with achild, now it's even more so. So
so here's an example of how weSabbath right now on Saturdays.
That's how we we Sabbath onSaturdays. We don't set an alarm
(34:25):
and we wake up naturally.
Usually, my child is the alarmand he'll wake us up.
Joshua Johnson (34:32):
My child's always the alarm.
Arianna Molloy (34:35):
We will make pancakes, we'll watch a movie
together or a show together, andwe'll take time to pray. We
have, until recently, been doingthe prayer of examine, which is
about five steps, where youthink about your your day and
your week, and you talk aboutyou just it's just beautiful.
You can look it up. We listen toeach other. Recently, we've been
doing the Lectio 365 which Ireally enjoy as well, and and
(34:59):
ultimately. Whatever we do thatday, we try to do it in an
unrushed manner. And we do whatJohn Mark comer talks about is
we don't focus on our work, thework the tyranny of the urgent.
We try not to focus on ourworries, which is really hard
for me. I'm an Enneagram six. Inaturally think about, is
(35:19):
everybody safe? What's gonnahappen? How do we strategize
about that? And even the once,like the needs that we have, we
don't think about those threethings. And anytime it comes to
your mind, for me, I probably doit on like an hourly basis.
Lord, I give this to you. I'mdistracted by these things. I
give it to you. And we also arenot on our phone that day. We
have an unplugged box, and wejust don't go on our phone. And
(35:41):
so do we do it well, usuallynot, but do we do it anyway?
Absolutely? Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (35:47):
that's so good.
Yes, we have screen freeSaturdays as well, and it's
really, really key. It's huge.
Spend time with family, doingall those Sabbath things. It's
really regenerative andrestorative for us as a family
and that we could continue inour work, we have to have it. So
rest is really important to workhard without burning out. Okay,
(36:07):
so rest is one. What else is the
Arianna Molloy (36:10):
other thing is to begin to identify the
difference between stress andchronic stress. So in every kind
of job, there's going to bestressful seasons. You know, for
us as academics, it's midtermsand finals. You know, for other
corporate organizations, it's atthe end of each quarter or the
closing year. God bless the taxpeople during tax season, right?
It's those things. It's, youknow, in in health care
(36:33):
settings, it's almost every day,you know, but it's, they're
these, they're these seasonsthat there's a deadline and that
is normal stress. It could evenbe like you're moving you're
remodeling your kitchen, youknow, you're getting married,
you're about to have a baby, allthose things, those are, those
are seasons of stress. That'snormal. Chronic stress is when
(36:55):
we normalize survival mode andwe think that that's the way to
live. Chronic stress iscontinual, and three things
happen. I'm a communicationprofessor, three things actually
happen in our communication thatreally cause relational
breakdown with others, withourselves and even with God. The
first of those things is that wetend to withdraw. When you're in
(37:18):
survival mode, it's a naturalmechanism to withdraw, because
you can't handle it all. And thereality is, withdrawing itself
is not a bad thing, but we don'ttend to communicate that we're
doing it. And so to the peoplein our lives that we love, and
to those in our workplace, wewithdraw and they feel hurt by
it. They misunderstand ourwithdrawal. We hurt ourselves by
(37:39):
doing it, because typically howwe withdraw, if you feel called,
is to work more and to be onyour screen, because all of
those things feel controllable.
So we withdraw. And a perfectexample is you're talking to
someone, and you can tell thatthey're exhausted, and then look
a little bothered, and you say,Hey, are you okay? And they say,
I'm fine. They might even sayit, looking down at their phone
while they're talking to you,I'm fine, they might cross their
(38:01):
arms. I'm fine. Yeah, that's nota good sign. And so if you need
to withdraw you, you need totell people, Hey, I'm actually
having a little bit of a hardtime right now. If I don't seem
like myself this week, I justwant to explain why. Or, hey,
you know, I don't think I cantalk about this thing this week.
I'm really overloaded. Can werevisit this next week? So
that's communicating thewithdraw, you know, or, Hey, I
(38:21):
need to have some alone timethis week. It has nothing to do
with you. I just need a littlealone time. That's good. That's
a good job. The second thingthat can happen in chronic
stress is something calledreduced awareness. So
approximately 70% of ourcommunication is non verbal. I'm
just going to let that land fora second. 70% right? So if 70%
are not the actual words thatwe're saying but how we're
(38:47):
saying them, there's, like,eight different ways that
nonverbal communication comesout how we're saying them. And
if we have reduced awarenesswhere we are in survival mode,
and our goal is to, like, get besafe and get it done right, like
you are missing 70% of thecommunication around you.
Chances are that's going to leadto conflict. So that's a bummer.
(39:08):
You also in that reducedawareness component. Not only
are you missing out on thosecues of others, you're missing
out on the cues of yourself, andwe become over like, almost
overly aware of everything we'redoing wrong. It's kind of like
if there's a blemish on yourface, you think everyone can see
it, but really probably not, andso you become overly self aware.
The third thing that happens inchronic stress is that physical
(39:30):
tension that can lead to panicattacks, depression, accelerated
heart rate, lack of sleep, justa change in the tone of voice
and facial expressions that thatcan really create a sense of
physical tension. And theproblem is, when we have that
kind of anxiety to others, it'susually communicated. They
usually feel it asaggressiveness or passiveness,
(39:50):
even though that's not whatwe're intending. It comes across
as, like, really intense orlike, I don't even care. And so
the problem. Problem withchronic stress is that chronic
stress is the genesis ofburnout. We just miss so much.
And so I would say when we're inthat place, it is not gonna go
away on its own. We have to makechanges that will probably feel
(40:14):
uncomfortable and really, reallyhard. So
Joshua Johnson (40:19):
then, what does it look like to get out of
survival mode, like, Are theresteps to say, Wow, this is not
healthy. This isn't working. Weneed to shift something here.
What do we do? So
Arianna Molloy (40:32):
couple things.
First is course correction.
Takes time, so be very realisticabout the fact that it's not
going to change overnight.
That's the first thing. Thesecond thing is, if we've been
in survival mode, what willhappen? People call it. I've
heard the term Sabbath sadness,but I think we need to almost
change that a little bit. It'salmost like, like burnout
sadness, almost doesn't have thesame alliteration. But when you
(40:55):
slow down, when you try to takea course correction, all of the
emotions that you've beenpushing down will rise to the
surface, and it can be wildlyuncomfortable and deeply
depressing. And so couple thingsabout that emotions are tunnels
that we have to actually gothrough. We cannot avoid them,
(41:17):
but we're also not supposed tolive in the tunnel, so we have
to let ourselves have a littlebit of that sadness. I'm not
talking about depression. I'mjust talking about sadness, and
to let ourselves be sad a littlebit. God might be trying to tell
us something in that sadness.
There's something importantabout lament and examination,
(41:39):
but it's an emotion, so youdon't want to get stuck in the
tunnel. So I would say Sabbathsadness, or that sense of
lingering sadness, is not asignal that something is wrong.
It's a signal that you're ahuman who has feelings that need
to be examined. The other thingI would say is absolutely have
places of accountability. Sopeople who have a healthy
(42:00):
calling, have some some elementof like an advisory board, and
it might not be official, likeyou might not meet together
collectively in a boardroom, butyou might have three to five
people, or if you don't havethis to set it up, three to five
people who you really respect,people that you think can speak
into your life, and you check inwith at least One of them once a
(42:21):
month, so that every month,you're having a place to check
in with people who know you, whoknow your goals, who can remind
you of who you are when you'veforgotten. And you know, there
were times in my life where theyweren't even people I knew, like
CS Lewis was like, on mypersonal board of advisors, you
know, Bernie Brown was like,Okay, I'm gonna listen to what
you're you're saying, and I'mgoing to apply that to my life.
(42:41):
My parents are on my advisoryboard. Our mutual friend Debbie
Pope, you know, she's someonethat I met with periodically, a
lot in grad school, she wouldhave been on my advisory board.
And my best friend is on myadvisory board. And when I meet
with them, and I know in mymind, I'm not doing well right
now, I think I want to withdraw.
What I actually need to do isreach out. I need to reach out
(43:02):
to this person who I know ishealthy, who's not going to tear
me down, but who's going toremind me of who I am. And
frankly, I need to be careful ofbeing around these other people
who are very fine people, butare probably not going to help
me out. In this mode, often
Joshua Johnson (43:17):
in that mode, problem mode, we are going to
withdraw. We're going to beinward focused. We'll be focused
on our feelings, and if we don'treach out, it also reminds me,
we have to look out for otherpeople as well, and we have to,
we have to be people that reachout, because sometimes it's it's
hard when you're in that spaceto be vulnerable enough to reach
(43:39):
out, especially if you don'thave built up relationships
where you can be vulnerable.
What is it? What did it take foryou, then, to find those people
to be vulnerable with and toopen yourself up? How did you
find how did you find yourfriends, like good friend, deep,
deep soul friends that can helpyou. It's
Arianna Molloy (44:04):
a little bit like dating. It can feel
awkward. You're like, trial anderror. Like, does this person
get me? Do I feel good about youknow myself after so, I mean, is
it trial and error? You mightthink that this person that
you've selected in your mind isgoing to be great, and you meet
with them, you're like, I don'tthink so. And it's okay, you
can, I mean, you don't have tomove forward. I think I've
(44:24):
because I've always beenpassionate about mentorship, and
I love to learn from others.
I've always been very watchfulof like, Who do I think is
making some great choices, andhow can I learn from them? I
guess I just automatically,like, I need to ask them to
coffee, I'm going to send theman email. I want to ask some
questions, and the most of thetime, people love to give
advice, so that, I mean, ifyou're not asking for a job, if
(44:46):
you're just asking for advice,people generally want to give
that. I looked at the trackrecord of others. I smile when
you're initially saying that,because I remember a very key
time right after I'd had my sonagain, my husband and I were
kind of the last to get married.
And we were also kind of thelast to have kids, so a lot of
our friends have kids that areolder. So we were going through
it, you know, at a differentstage. And what that means for
(45:08):
me is I was in a different placein my career. I wasn't starting
off. I was like in it, and Iwanted to keep going. And my
sweet, amazing, incredibleparents knew that I felt called
to be a professor, and theyactually moved from Seattle to
California. They left theircommunity to come be
grandparents and help us raiseour kids so that I could keep
(45:30):
doing what I'm doing. And myhusband made changes in his job
too to do the same thing. Sothat's pretty amazing. But I was
like, How do I get back to workafter, you know, having
maternity leave and stuff. So Ithought about the four or five
women on my campus who weregreat scholars. They were
publishing things who talkedwell of their spouses and who
(45:51):
liked their kids, which actuallyis hard to find, all those three
things, and I met with them. AndI guess maybe because I'm a
qualitative researcher. I camewith about 10 questions, I wrote
down the answers, I thematicallyanalyzed the main code, and I
realized it was like, an n offive. No, there's only five
people. But I looked at that andI was like, Okay, I'm gonna
apply this. And so I guess forme, mentorship is seasonal.
(46:15):
Sometimes you meet with someonefor a while and it no longer
serves you or them, and that hasto be okay too. Mentorship is
not a covenant like marriage, soit is okay to modify those
things. But I think for me, Ijust, I looked for people who
gave me life, who inspired me,and I, I set up meetings with
them, and in my mind, I'll evenput a calendar reminder of like,
(46:36):
okay, contact this person in twoweeks. Contact this person in
three weeks. One last thing
Joshua Johnson (46:41):
before we get into final questions. Being
called means that you're alsofocused on community, that there
is an impact. How do we findimpact when we're doing a job?
So you're not the boss, you'renot running things, you're just
doing doing something. How do wefind that impact so that we can
keep going, that we could behealthy and have a healthy work
(47:05):
and healthy calling. But no,it's just something we have to
do so that we could provide forour family. Sure, how do we find
that impact? Yeah, so
Arianna Molloy (47:15):
again, to experience your paid work as a
calling is great. Not everyonehas to do that. They can have
their paid work be a job or acareer, and they might find
their sense of calling in a sidegig, a side hustle, or in a
place of serving. I mean, Idon't know any church that says,
nope. We don't need anyvolunteers, right? So there's
always places to go where youcan live out that sense of
(47:39):
contributing and serving interms of impact, this is part of
the tension of calling, is thatwe don't always see it. You
know, unlike a career which ismotivated by explicit, tangible
outcomes, look, I helped makethis playground happen. Look, I
got a new corner office. Look, Igot to take my family on
vacation. Look, I got this bonusin my check. Oh, calling is more
(48:02):
intangible, and sometimes Ithink that can lead to that
workaholism or job vitalization,because we're wanting to see
this tangible impact. When Imeet with students in the
moment, I don't always see theimpact, but I'll tell you what,
when I get these emails or textsfrom students who have graduated
and who say, Dr Malloy, I justwant to tell you what I learned
(48:23):
is what I'm experiencing. I cry.
I mean, I just like it bringstears to my eyes. And so I guess
in one way, I would say, Heyeveryone else, make sure you
tell people when they'reimpacting you. We need to do a
lot better of a job givingfeedback. It is not enough even
to honestly say, Good jobexplain why it was good, be
(48:44):
specific. And so impact is animportant thing to need and
want. I believe that the Lordwill reveal that to you as you
keep doing what you're meant todo.
Joshua Johnson (48:57):
Because we both had a professor in common,
Debbie Pope in college, we bothhad her. She had a big impact on
my life and love of literature,wanting to be creative and being
in this space. And I know shehad a big impact on you. What
did you take and learn from heras you moved into the role as
(49:18):
professor? How did she and whatshe did for you impacts what you
are doing for students today.
Arianna Molloy (49:26):
Debbie Pope, I love you forever and always. I
had her as a freshman in collegeat a university that just wasn't
the right fit for me, so I wasnot really that excited about
other things, but when I was inher classroom, I felt seen and
heard. I took a public speakingclass from her, and it was as if
every part of me was lit upinside with like a constellation
of stars. I just felt sheequipped me to understand the
(49:51):
importance of organization andpreparedness. She allowed me to
be creative. She helped me feelseen and heard. She was a.
Little bit eccentric, but full,full, unapologetically, full of
energy. And I think she letevery student who walked in be
themselves, but she called themto a higher standard. At the
(50:13):
same time, she forced us towatch ourselves after we did our
talks, you know, she wouldrecord them, and that was maybe
one of the best communicationtechniques I've ever
experienced, and I do that whenI do consulting. So when I'm
working with corporate folks ornonprofit or especially pastoral
staff, I'll have them watchthemselves twice, once with the
sound on, once with the soundoff, and look at some of their
(50:35):
communication patterns. That wasamazing and so and she also has
taught me what it means toembrace life fully at whatever
stage you're in. Her energy hasremained high regardless of you
know the time passing. So Ithink when I go to my classes, I
want every student in that room,the ones in the front, the ones
on the side, the ones in theback, the ones who arrive early,
(50:58):
the ones who arrive late. I wantthem all to know I see them and
they have the capacity for more,and I want them to can you
continue to be who they are, butjust learn more about what that
means to be critical thinkers sothat they are not taken
advantage of by by messages thatreally aren't meant for them to
adopt. So
Joshua Johnson (51:17):
good. Ariana, if people go out, get your book
healthy calling, what do youhope for your readers?
Arianna Molloy (51:23):
Yeah, thank you.
Well, I'd be so grateful firstof all, if you do get it and if
you want to leave me a review,I'd be super grateful for that,
because that helps other peopleknow whether or not it's worth
to read. I wrote this bookimagining sitting across from
from the reader with a coffee towalk alongside them, I would
hope that they don't read it,try to read it overnight, that
they read it, you know, allowingthe process. There's questions
(51:45):
at the end of every chapter forthem to think about. It's a
great book to do in a smallgroup or a book study, but I
think my hope would be that theywould have language to name
feelings and experiences thathave held them in a kind of
prison, because when we namesomething, the chains unlock,
and when we name something, thedoor opens, and when we name
(52:06):
something, we are empowered tomove forward. So that would be
my hope. I'm not going to getall the answers. I'm still
learning myself. I won't everpromise that it's easy, but I
will promise that we canexperience growth. And if you've
been burnt out, or you are burntout, you do not have to stay
there. That is not how the restof your life has to look
Joshua Johnson (52:26):
so good if you go back to your 21 year old
self, what advice would yougive? I
Arianna Molloy (52:30):
heard this combination of a phrase
recently. I just love it somuch. And I would say you are
never too much, and you arealways enough. I love
Joshua Johnson (52:40):
that. Can I take that too? Please? I give it to
you. I need that. Anythingyou've been reading or watching
lately you could recommend,
Arianna Molloy (52:49):
oh my gosh.
Well, I fast to you as a fulltime professor. And I have a
young kid, and we help out withmy parents, who have some
different health needs. I don'tknow that we have a whole lot of
time. I am still savoring theliturgy of everyday life and
also practicing the way. Iactually really love fiction. So
I'm reading this fantastic bookabout an author, a scientist,
who lives in the world offairies, like she studies them,
(53:09):
like actual, like it's existing.
It's, it's really lovely. I tryto read something of CS Lewis's
almost at all times. So that's,that's real. And yeah, I mean,
we're reading, we're watchingall kinds of shows, but I don't
know if I'd recommend them. Youknow, I have really been
enjoying listening to podcastslike yours, because I think
(53:30):
podcasts are a way to connect toothers that we don't have time
to talk with in person, or don'thave the ability to but to just
keep learning. I think is, isreally, really important.
Joshua Johnson (53:41):
Well, healthy calling should be available
anywhere you get books. So goand get healthy calling anywhere
else you'd like to point peopleto how could they connect with
you?
Arianna Molloy (53:50):
Great. So you can go to my website,
arianamoloy.com and so we, Ihave a lot of resources there on
meaningful work calling and justgenerally, healthy communication
tips in the workplace. And ifyou want to reach out to me, I'd
be so happy to chat aboutanything else. There's a way to
do that on my website, Arianamalloy.com but
Joshua Johnson (54:05):
she is not the best conversation partner about
basketball. But anything else,if you want to connect, if you
want to talk to Ariana,
Arianna Molloy (54:17):
that's true. I mean, I can make the Dodgers
because we are a Dodgers family,or the Seahawks, because I'm
from Seattle, Go Hawks, butyeah, basketball, I just don't,
I don't know that I cancontribute
Joshua Johnson (54:27):
much. There you go. There you go. Big, a big
Seahawks fan over here fromSeattle as well. So Ariana, this
was such a fantasticconversation, it made me want to
go take you and your husband outto dinner. Go to Din Tai Fung
with some Xiao Long Bao, andthat would be amazing. That
would be fun. So I would love tocontinue this conversation and
(54:48):
continue to talk to you, becauseit's great, because healthy
calling and healthy work is suchan important thing to know that
we can work out our calling in ahealthy way, in a way that gives
honor and glory to God. But. Indoesn't lead to burnout, that it
doesn't lead to a place where,okay, I'm done, finished. We
can't do this anymore. Whatincredible, incredible research
(55:09):
that you have done so that youcould find places where we can
be healthy in our work. So thankyou for this conversation. I
loved it. Thank you, me too. You
If I mess up.
(00:00):
Oh, well, I cannot let that bethe defining factor of whether
(00:03):
or not I live out the callingGod's given me, because it's not
about me. And so I think that'spart of that humility factor. If
I'm so consumed with my ownweaknesses, I am thinking about
myself. Guess another word forthat is pride. You can be
prideful about what you're goodat, and you can be super
prideful about what you'reterrible at.
Joshua Johnson (00:35):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost, Joshua Johnson, today
we're talking about somethingthat impacts all of us, our
calling and how we can pursuemeaningful work without burning
out. I'm sitting down withAriana Malloy, author of healthy
(00:57):
calling, to unpack what itreally means to live out our
purpose without getting crushedby pressure and expectations.
We'll explore some criticalquestions, what does calling
really look like? How do werecognize our unique gifts and
most importantly, how can westay passionate about our work
without losing ourselves in theprocess? Whether you're a pastor
(01:17):
feeling overwhelmed, aprofessional struggling with
workplace stress, or someonetrying to figure out your next
career move, this conversationoffers practical wisdom about
finding purpose and maintainingyour energy. Ariana brings
incredible insights from herresearch and personal journey
that will help you reframe howdo you think about work calling
(01:38):
and your own potential? So joinus as we discover how we could
live out our calling withoutburning out. Here's my
conversation with Ariana Malloy.
Ariana, welcome shiftingculture. Really excited to have
you on. Thanks for joining me.
Arianna Molloy (01:52):
I'm so thrilled to be here and to chat with you
and all the others. We want
Joshua Johnson (01:56):
to talk about your book healthy calling, and
how to have a calling in whichyou can work in a healthy way,
not that doesn't lead toburnout. So we don't have
burnout. Burnout is horrible andleads to all sorts of problems,
and we see especially now. Imean, you look in the ministry
space, pastors are are burningout left and right. You look in
(02:21):
the workplace, there's highrates of depression and anxiety
everywhere. It feels like thisis something that is more
prevalent than ever. But beforewe dive into all of those
burnout things, since we aretalking about calling, I'd love
to just explore yours. What wasyour calling like when you think
(02:43):
of calling? What is it?
Arianna Molloy (02:45):
Yeah. So first of all, when we're talking about
a calling, we have todistinguish what type of calling
are we talking about. So asbelievers, we all are called.
Our primary calling is to loveGod and love others. So that's
what we're all called to do isto love God and love others.
Now, there are specific ways inour lives that when we do that,
(03:07):
when we are loving God andloving others, it also ignites a
particular skill set or passionthat we have, and so theologians
and social scientists will callthat a secondary calling. So our
primary calling is to love Godand love others. And our
secondary calling is there arecertain places in our life,
whether it be work, paid work,unpaid work, relationships,
(03:28):
service, ministry, differentthings, that when we're doing
those, it actually feels like weare worshiping the Lord in a
sweet spot kind of way. Okay, sojust to distinguish that. So for
me, I think that my first senseof calling was to be a daughter.
I just love my parents, and Irealized that's a very
(03:48):
privileged perspective. They arenot perfect people, but I I grew
up in a home where my parentsgrew up in sort of
dysfunctional, is not the notthe right word, but homes that
were very fractured, but theychose to do something different.
And so they committed to eachother, to to love each other and
love me well, and I did feelloved. And so I just remember
(04:12):
knowing God's love through them.
And they are exceptional people.
And so when I was a freshman incollege and I had no idea what
major to choose. I remembercoming home and visiting them
and being like, can I just be aprofessional daughter? Because I
totally know how to do that, youknow. And so I think I felt that
sense. I also felt really calledto be a good friend.
(04:34):
Relationships are a highpriority to me. I was the last
person in my social group to getmarried. And so I think in my
single years, I sort ofprobably, in an almost unhealthy
way, was really there for myfriends. And so I because I had
extra time, and I had extra, youknow, hours, and so I really was
there for all of my people. AndI'm an only child, so my friends
(04:57):
are like family to me. So to me,they're the. Relationships that
I pour into. So I felt reallycalled to that. I felt really
called to be a mentor. I startedmentoring in high school and
then in college, and then postcollege, and to me when we can
see people who are a little bitafter us, who need to be seen
(05:19):
and heard and encouraged andhelp them feel like they are not
alone. That is what the body ofChrist is all about, you know.
So I felt very called to that.
But the reason I'm kind of goingin a circle is I had no clue
what to do at my job, you know,like I just couldn't I couldn't
imagine sitting behind a deskall day. That didn't seem right
for me. But I also likestructure and reliability, but I
(05:39):
also like adventure, and I don'treally want to have to be
accountable to other people allthe time, but I like being part
of a team, and so it took me awhile to realize that one way I
could feel called in my work isto be a professor. And I
remember, actually I got mymasters, and I really enjoyed
that. I worked in a churchafterwards, which was a terrible
(06:01):
experience. We can talk aboutthat or not. I worked for a non
profit, which was a lovelyexperience. But for both, I was
a little bit I was a little bitbored, and again, I was single
at the time, so I'm like, okay,what can I do to, you know,
really take advantage of my lifeand adventure. And I thought, if
I can get a full ridescholarship, why not get a PhD?
I don't know what for. I evenremember I had a phenomenal
(06:24):
Master's experience, graduateexperience, and when I was
applying for my PhD, I remembera well meaning person. I'm not,
I won't call her a friendnecessarily, took me to lunch
and said, hey, you know, I don'tthink you have what it takes to
go to get your PhD. I just wantto, I just want to help you out
and just let you know I don'tthink you ought to do that. I
(06:45):
just remember feeling sodevastated, you know, because I
didn't quite know what else todo, but it felt like that was
the thing to do. And and thenwithin that same week, I was
driving on the freeway inSeattle, which is where I'm I'm
from originally. I rememberexactly where I was, and I got a
phone call from my top choiceuniversity that I got a full
ride scholarship, and I had topull over because I was like,
(07:06):
wait, what? Amazing, yeah. Andso I got my PhD, but I honestly
didn't even know what I wasgoing to do with it. And so I
the third year of my PhD, I waswalking on campus, and for this
program, you get to teachundergrads and then also take
classes. And I remember I was Iwas praying over I was a very
secular university, and I waspraying over my classrooms, just
(07:27):
laying hands on the on the seatsand the doorways. And I was
walking along the campus, and Isaw these freshmen with their
parents, and I saw the look ontheir face of trying to be
brave, but also very scared, andI called my parents, and I said,
I think I'm supposed to be aprofessor. And so, you know,
there's more to the story aboutwhere the Lord would call me. He
(07:48):
called me to Biola, and I didn'twant to be in California, so
that was a whole thing. But Ithink my calling has been very
process based. And I would say,while I feel called to be a
professor. It's very importantto distinguish that should the
Lord ever move me to somethingelse, I can still enact that
calling, which has to do withcollaborative learning, speaking
before large groups, andspeaking one on one, mentorship
(08:11):
and, you know, partialindependence with team based
work as well. So I think one ofthe things about calling is we
get distracted by the label andwe forget that it's about the
thing that we get to do that's
Joshua Johnson (08:25):
so good, it's about the thing that we get to
do. And you just name the thingsthat you feel these are your
callings right? CollaborativeLearning, speaking in front of
large groups, these types ofthings. This is your calling.
And it can be as a professor inBiola, but maybe you're going to
be called somewhere else to beable to do those sort of things
(08:47):
that are your purpose. How didyou find those are the things
that you are called to, nomatter what vocation you're in?
Oh,
Arianna Molloy (08:57):
such a good question. Totally by trial and
error. It was a lot of likedoing internships or job
shadowing or networking. I did alot of informational interviews.
So I asked to meet people whowere doing work that I was
fascinated by, pastoral work,psychology, all these things,
even like someone who workedwith like animal training and
(09:18):
shelter, you know, pet shelters,and I just asked them about
their work, and I learned what Ididn't like and what I did like.
And then I did some, you know,jobs. I worked at a radio
station, which, oh my gosh, Iloved that so much, but I
learned about the things Ididn't like, and in the moment
that felt defeating, but lookingback, it was refining. I learned
about the things that I was goodat. And in the moment, I didn't
(09:42):
have a name for it, I thoughteveryone could do these things.
And then in in retrospect, Irealized, no, no, no, this is
God's fingerprint on me, and toown that. And so I think that I
learned it along the way, and Ialso had wise counselors. That I
pursued. They didn't pursue menecessarily. I have to go pursue
(10:03):
them and say, Hey, what do youthink about this as an idea?
And, you know, get theirfeedback on that as well.
Joshua Johnson (10:10):
You know, yesterday or maybe two days ago,
my parents were here, my son'sspring break, and my dad is
working on something aboutpeople in the in the marketplace
work, and work is calling, andhe's gonna do a whole program,
and he is seeing that people arereally confused with the word
(10:30):
calling, yeah, when it comes towork and ministry. And I think
that calling is reserved forministry, and then work is just
something that you do. Can youhelp us define what is calling
as a whole life, and not just inregards to ministry or as
(10:55):
regards to work? How could wesee it holistically, that there
is a calling all the time foreverybody, whatever they're
doing,
Arianna Molloy (11:04):
absolutely and again, primary calling to love
God and love others. So we askcan ask ourselves every day,
Okay, Lord, how can I? How can Idemonstrate my love to you? And
who are the people that I can dothat to as well? You know? But
that secondary calling requiresa bit of bravery. It requires a
bit of vulnerability to thinkabout, what are you good at and
(11:25):
what do you care about? Now, asit relates to calling in the
workplace, I've done a lot ofresearch with this, interviewed
a ton of people, and I'm aqualitative researcher, so I'm a
social scientist, and I wouldsay across the board, whether
you're a believer or not, peoplecan feel called, and absolutely
no one profession owns that. Soyou can talk to doctors, they
(11:47):
feel called, stay at home,parents. They can feel called
custodial staff and constructionworkers, beauticians, artists,
lawyers, financial advisors,athletes, teachers. They feel
called. So we have to stopgiving an inflated hierarchy to
people who are in explicitministry. Now that kind of
(12:08):
calling does perform faith in aunique way that can lend itself
to a unique type of burnout. SoI want to be clear that that is
there's a lot of pressure there,but if you were to talk to
health professionals who seepeople dying and hurting every
day physically, you can't tellme that they are not burnt out,
or that they don't feel thatcalling. I've interviewed them,
(12:30):
I've worked with them, I'veconsulted with them. So I think
we need to be careful not toshow a kind of favoritism that
way. But here's there are fourthings that happen when we
experience work now, I'm talkingabout anything that you do on a
daily basis or a routine basisthat requires mental and
emotional exertion. So itdoesn't have to be paid work. It
(12:52):
can be any kind of endeavor thatyou're doing. There are four
things that need to happen thatact that that fall into the
definition of work as a calling.
The first is that you find itmeaningful. So this could, and
that's very subjective, right? Imean, my mother can plant a
plant, and just by being aroundthe plant, it blossoms. I mean,
she has a green thumb. Likenobody's business. I kill
(13:12):
plants. It's not that I don'tlike them. I don't know what
they're saying. You know, if itwas an animal or a person, I
could totally key in on that,but I'm a terrible plant
gardener person, but it'smeaningful to her. I love
hearing people's stories. Icould sit and have a coffee with
someone all day long. Give me 12people back to back, and I would
(13:34):
be all about it. I love it. I'dbe exhausted at the end, but it
fills my cup. That would not bethe case for everybody you know.
So it's meaningful. The secondthing is that you can identify a
caller now as Christians, that'sGod, but there's a lot of people
that I've interviewed who arenot identifiers as Christians,
and so they might think theuniverse is calling them. They
might feel like their internalself is calling them. They might
(13:56):
feel like an artist, her paintbrush is calling her, or a
musician, his guitar is callinghim, or a teacher, the classroom
itself is calling her, and soyou can identify that. And the
reason that's important is thatcalling is about relationship.
So identifying a caller isidentifying this feeling of
something pulling you in acertain direction. The third
(14:20):
thing is that you're using yourpassion and your skill set. I
don't know about you, but whenI'm given an opportunity to do
something, well, gosh, it feelsgood like it feels to do
something you're good at. I'mpretty good at event planning. I
don't like it. And so one of thethings that you'll find is that
you can do something you're goodat for a while, but long term
motivation does not live in thatplane. You also have to care
(14:43):
about it. Now. You can't justcare about it because it feels
terrible to like something, butlike be really bad at it. It
just like it doesn't work. Youneed both of those things. And I
think that in this sort of toolbelt society. So the newest
generation that we're thinkingabout as they enter college,
they're the tool beltgeneration. They want to acquire
(15:04):
skills, and they want to applythem. I think that we've done a
disservice in the way we talkabout college as other because
college is where you get youlearn about those skills. You
get to have a trial and errorapplying them, and then you get
to go out there and do more ofit, but you have to have that
skill set and passion. You canthink of someone who feels
(15:24):
called to be a surgeon. Theywouldn't go into the surgery
room on day one and be like,well, where's the knife? You
know, they they have to train.
And I think apprenticeship is soimportant, we've lost the art of
apprenticeship. But this, thisfourth thing is also really
important. This is therelational part as well. It's
something we call in the socialsciences pro social behavior,
(15:46):
and it's other focus. So acalling will always, always be
about how you impact others. Andso that's different than a
hobby, which is fine, and youcan still experience a
worshipfulness in doing a hobbythat's between you and God, but
a calling is necessarilyrelational. It has to be a
(16:07):
relationship with the caller. Weknow that as God, the called
ourselves and the community thatwe serve. And the reason that
this is important is thatburnout from a calling happens
when we feel this pull towardsrelationships with God or with
others, because we know we canmake a difference, but we are
tired and we've run out. So
Joshua Johnson (16:28):
when I when I have a sense of calling, I know
and I'm in my sweet spot.
There's purpose. I'm moving in adirection that I think that I
could have an impact in thisworld. I have a relationship
with the caller. How do I movetowards burnout? Like, why am I
moving so much? Becauseeverything about it feels good.
Yeah, I'm excited to work inthis space. I'm excited to be
(16:52):
here, but if I exert too much, Iget towards burnout. How do how
do we move towards burnout like?
What does it look like? What isburnout? Okay,
Arianna Molloy (17:03):
well, the quick answer, and then I'll unpack it.
The quick answer is, when webecome so distracted with the
calling that we forget that thepoint is the caller. We go
towards burnout when we are sofocused on the pursuit of our
calling that we forget about therelationships that we have with
ourselves. Are we getting enoughsleep? Are we eating well? Are
(17:25):
we getting enough exercise,like, are we Doom scrolling at
night rather than to going tobed when we should with our
caller? Have we spent time withhim today? Are we allowing him
to soften our hearts wherecynicism so easily corrodes and
then relationship with thecommunity. Are we showing up for
the people that we've committedto? Is our community? Are we?
(17:46):
Are we just kind of around sortof cynical and sarcastic people
too much, where they'recorroding our calling, which is
really easy to do. We go fromventing, which is necessary to
complaining which is harmful.
And so I would say that's theshort answer is, when we get
distracted with calling insteadof caller. The longer answer is
a little more complicated,because a lot of things can
impact it. There are thingsoutside of our control. Life
(18:08):
circumstances I know, for me, inthe last three or four years, my
family experienced significanthealth trauma that had lots of
ER visits and terminal diagnosesand actually loss of life that
was, that was a life burnout.
(18:28):
And even though my my work wasfine, it, of course, is going to
impact my work. And I don't havecontrol over those things. We
don't always have control over aboss that's difficult, or, if
you think about a pastor, acongregation that's just
complaining all the time, weknow or or an epidemic that's
happening, and the health thehealth care professionals are
(18:49):
dealing with that, or ineducation, there's not enough
monetary support. We don'talways have control over that.
Here are the two things we havecontrol over, okay, workaholism
and job Idolization. And what Iwhat I hope we can key in on is,
yes, when you feel called toyour work, when that happens,
you're actually the mostmotivated, the most satisfied,
(19:10):
the most resilient than anyother peer group, so more than
people who approach it as a jobor a career. If you feel called,
you're the one people want inthe room. You make everything
better. The problem is you arealso the most prone to burnout,
more than any other group. Youare the most prone to burnout,
and that kind of burnout, thecalling burnout, is different
(19:32):
than regular burnout. So
Joshua Johnson (19:34):
then let's take both workaholics, yeah, and
people idolize their job. If Ilook at the people who have
suffered burnout. One of thefactors that I have seen is that
they believe that the work isthrough them, like it's required
that they are there or the workdoesn't get done. They see
(19:56):
themselves as the most importantthing. In the room for whatever
this work is. How is thatimpacting burnout, and how do we
move away from our own selfimportance? Yeah, in our
calling. Because I don't knowabout you, but when I feel
(20:16):
called, I feel like it's mycalling. It somewhat does
revolve around me. Totally.
Arianna Molloy (20:22):
Yeah. So I talk a lot about this in my book,
but, and again, I almost wishthat this wasn't the answer,
because it's it's not thatexciting, and it doesn't sound
as thrilling, but the researchshows that the way to have a
healthy calling is to dig deepinto the virtue of humility.
Joshua Johnson (20:41):
Oh, humility. Oh yes,
Arianna Molloy (20:45):
that old thing, you know. So I was experiencing
burnout my first timeprofessionally, not including
like grad school, which is not asustainable experience anyway.
But when I got my job at Biola,I got, I started to get
opportunities that were awesome.
And I know this is a terriblyprivileged problem, but like, I
had all these coolopportunities. People wanted me
(21:06):
to be a part of committees andteach overloads and do guest
speaking, and I saw thedifference I could make in
students lives, and it wasthrilling, and it was wonderful.
And I remember waking up in themiddle of the night one night my
third year, and my heart wasjust pounding, and I was like,
clammy, and I felt just sort ofcynical and like just sort of
that, that joy was gone. And Istarted doing a checklist in my
(21:30):
mind of, Okay, what does thismean? Because I've been studying
this for a while, and I realizedI'm experiencing some burnout.
So I went to the dean of myschool and said, I think I'm
really getting burnt out. I wasplanning a wedding at the time.
I mean, it was all it was allthe things. And he said, Okay,
let me help you figure out whatyou can say no to and what you
can say yes to. And we found aresearch fellowship where for an
entire semester I could have ahalf course load. You know, I
(21:52):
love teaching. It's literally mypassion, but to cut it in half,
and then I could study thistheme that these scholars from
across the world were studying.
I didn't even pay attention towhat it was I show up the first
day, we're sitting in thesecherry wood furniture, blush
leather chairs with good food,and all these intellectuals are
(22:14):
in the room, and I'm so excited.
And turns out it's abouthumility. And for an entire
semester, we were studying whattheologians, psychologists,
organizational, communicationscholars, are talking about with
humility. And what began tohappen? I had no intention of
combining that with my ownresearch on calling, but what
began to happen is, as we weretalking about the criteria of
humility, distinguishing thatbetween passivity and modesty,
(22:36):
which are not the same thing, Iwas thinking about all of the
people that I've interviewed whomanaged to have a healthy
calling, who either got towardsburnout and then got out of it,
or really primarily avoided it.
And it was exactly what humilityis. It literally overlaid on top
(22:58):
of it. So I published some someresearch and really began
understanding that the way to ahealthy calling is by
prioritizing humility. Well, howdo you do that? Because it's
kind of like to pursue humility,like, can you humble? And you
know all the
Joshua Johnson (23:10):
things? Well, my wife tells me multiple times a
week that I'm so humble. She'ssaying it sarcastically, but,
yeah, she does tell me all thetime.
Arianna Molloy (23:20):
So this, there's a lot more to say about it, and
I do talk about it in the book alot more, but we could boil it
down to three things. You canlook at it through Scripture.
It's evidence there, because alltruth is God's truth, right? So
what the social scientists arefinding out about humility not a
surprise to God. This wasalready there in the Bible, but
it's that you know yourstrengths and your weaknesses.
That's the first one, and you'renot distracted by either one.
(23:42):
Okay, so this is reallyimportant. You are clear on what
you're good at, but that's notwhat drives you you're also
clear on where you need to grow,but that's not what holds you
back. You know what you're goodat, and you know where you need
to grow, and it's not the thingyou focus on. And the way to to
kind of live in that space is tolive in gratitude, to thank the
(24:04):
Lord for what he has done andwhat he will do. I remember my
first my second year, actually,I think it was my second year in
my job at Biola. Yes, it was. Iwas nominated for an award for
Most Outstanding Professor. Youdon't usually get nominated for
this in that early in yourcareer. I have a phenomenal I
had a phenomenal boss at thetime, Dr Todd Lewis, and he
(24:25):
nominated me, and I got the Igot the award. And when he told
me he was so excited, I had donea terrible job that day
teaching, and so I was, I waslike, Oh, wow. And I pointed out
to him the things that I haddone terribly. And he said,
Stop, don't do that. I see thegood in you, and when you reject
it, you're not only insultingme, but you're not giving an
(24:46):
opportunity for God to beglorified. And so I had to take
a minute to realize like mytendency is not to be distracted
by my strengths, is to bedistracted by my weaknesses, and
maybe that's a way of trying tonot be prideful. But regardless.
Just, I have to just, like, letit go and just say, Thank You
God you know, and not hold on toit. So the second part of
humility is a lifestyle oflearning. We know that Jesus was
(25:09):
called rabbi and teacher. Weknow that wisdom means that you
recognize you don't knoweverything. It is the fear of
knowledge. It's knowing, hey,there's more I need to know. And
you can even use this as adiagnostic of like, am I being
defensive in this meeting rightnow? Huh? Am I unwilling to
learn something new? Do I thinkthat I know the best way?
(25:31):
Because that's not humility. Wehave to be open to the fact that
there's more than one way to dosomething, that there's more
that we're going to need toknow, and that when someone
gives us a new idea, it does notthreaten what we already know.
The third thing about humilityis that humility allows you to
take a pause from what you'redoing, because you know that you
(25:51):
are not the linchpin, right? Youare not God. It's very clear on
the role of who God is. And sothat third part of humility is
that Sabbath thing. It's saying,You know what, if I walk away
and things fall apart, I'mprobably not leading Well
anyway, I need to be able totake a moment and take a breath,
because to truly keep growing,to lean into those first two
parts of humility, we have totake time to reflect and
(26:14):
reflection not happen when youwithout pausing to examine
what's going on in Life. So Iwould say the way to protect
that sense of healthy calling iswe have to make sure that we are
aware of what we're good at, sothat we're not incompetent we
can contribute, not getdistracted by our weaknesses,
keep learning and regularlybuild in moments where we pause
(26:37):
from the chaos and cacophony ofthe noises around us, including
the visual noise of screens andsocial media that we pause and
quiet our hearts to listen forwhat the Lord the Holy Spirit
may be wanting us to see andknow. How did
Joshua Johnson (26:51):
you move past the place where you focus too
much on your weaknesses? I won'tput anything on you because I
we're we just met, but I feellike we know each other before
we know each other already. Butokay, so if you're covering
things up, sometimes you'resaying, I have some weaknesses.
What that does to a lot ofpeople when they're workaholics
(27:14):
is that they they're they'rejust covering up their
weaknesses through workingreally hard and letting people
see their strengths and not seetheir weaknesses. How did you
start to open up and be okaywith saying I do have some
weaknesses, and it's okay and Idon't have to focus on them. I
(27:35):
could say those are theweaknesses, but I do have
strengths, and I'm able to workwell, even despite my
weaknesses. Yeah,
Arianna Molloy (27:44):
good, yeah. I think my tendency wasn't, and
isn't, to cover up. It's to holdback. It's to not, it's not it's
to not lean in, to not sit atthe table, it's to not take
advantage of opportunities. Andso I think for me, the
weaknesses, when I'm aware of myweaknesses, I'm very hard on
myself, and then I don't say yesto opportunities God's given me,
(28:08):
I take myself out of the game.
And so one of the things that'shelped me get over that is the
fact that it's not about me, soif I mess up, oh well, I cannot
let that be the defining factorof whether or not I live out the
calling God's given me, becauseit's not about me. And so I
think that's part of thathumility factor. If I'm so
consumed with my own weaknesses,I am thinking about myself.
(28:30):
Guess another word for that ispride. You can be prideful about
what you're good at, and you canbe super prideful about what
you're terrible at. It's just aself focus. And so I think for
me, I do have to, on a weeklybasis, take stock of where I
feel like I have failed. And Idon't know where that message
came from. It certainly didn'tcome from my parents. I just
(28:50):
innately have a awareness oflike, here's where I want to be
and here's where I actually was,which is lower. And wow, that's
a bummer. You know, I confess toyou that my natural mindset is a
fixed mindset rather than agrowth mindset. Fixed Mindset
sees failure as devastating.
Growth Mindset sees failure asan opportunity to learn. But I
think that I have intentionally,it's not a natural thing, but I
(29:14):
intentionally say, Well, this isan opportunity to learn, and I
do love to learn, so perhapsthat Learning Mode is there?
But, you know, yeah, I mean, Ithink just forgiving yourself,
and for me, if I'm so focused onmy weaknesses, the alarm in my
mind is, oh, I'm thinking aboutmyself. That's not the point
here. Can God speak throughdonkeys? Can God speak through
(29:35):
the rocks? The rocks will cryout. Can God work through people
who are lacking in confidence?
Absolutely and so I try just tobe like, Yeah, I see you. I see
you. Imposter syndrome, you'rewelcome to stay, but you have to
sit in the corner. I'm not evengonna wait for you to leave. I'm
gonna just keep going. I think
Joshua Johnson (29:52):
some people think when they think of healthy
calling, or they think ofhealthy work, and they think of
a work life balance, butsometimes. Sometimes moving into
like, healthy work is not abouthaving the right balance of
saying, I'm gonna just work, youknow, 50% of the time, I'm gonna
do this a certain amount oftime, and just get everything in
(30:13):
the right position and the rightpercentage, and then I'm going
to be okay. So if it's not justbalance and percentage, then
what does it look like whenwe're like, working hard but not
moving towards burnout? How dowe work hard without burning
out? Oh
Arianna Molloy (30:32):
gosh, these are such good questions. I love
them. They're really they'reyou're really keying in on some
things that are not examinedoften. And that's the whole
point here, is to take apart,taken for granted, assumptions.
So several things. One is, weall have different capacities.
So I'm married to an Enneagramthree. He has an amazing high
(30:52):
capacity. He loves to be busy.
He loves to use every part ofthe toothpaste tube, you know,
squeeze it out, roll it to thevery end, like, he will
literally, like, shake thetoothpaste on toothpaste. I
mean, I think I have a highcapacity, probably in comparison
to to, you know, other folks ingeneral. But within academics,
my capacity is very medium. Ineed to rest and restore. And I
(31:14):
know that about myself. So Ithink part of it is really
getting comfortable to what yourcapacity is and not apologizing
for it. We could go into thewhole conversation of, how do
you rest? Because also learningthe types of rest that you need
is important. There's seventypes of rest, and if you need
to key in on which one willactually restore you, that's
(31:36):
important. So for my husband tosit still, usually not a good
choice for him. He doesn'tthat's, that's not restorative,
but to be, to be creative, toplay, to do dynamic rest, where
he's doing something otherthat's fun. Fun for him is
restorative. Contemplativenature is restorative to me. So
Joshua Johnson (31:56):
how do you do this? So we'll keep on with this
conversation. But how do we howdo you do that? So think of
Sabbath, yeah, for you and rest.
So if you have contemplativenature, and your husband likes
to play and really get after it,yeah, how do you do it together?
How do you connect and rest atthe same time?
Arianna Molloy (32:16):
Great question.
The third year of our marriage,we were sitting in a Taiwan
hotel lobby area having tea.
It's called asleep, if anyone'sbeen there before in Taiwan, my
mother, my husband's Chinese,Taiwanese, and my mother in law
had her husband had just passedaway, and so had gone there to
take her back home. And we wereexhausted, and it was the middle
(32:38):
of summer, and it is stickythere. I mean, you get out of
the shower and you're like, IWhy don't I even shower? I'm
already sticking so we've beenworking really hard, and we
decided to take a break. And welove we travel quite a bit, and
we love to actually have hightea wherever we travel in the
world, because tea is donedifferently and and it's just a
fun cultural moment where youcan kind of relax and also take
(32:58):
part in in what's happening inthat context. And we were
chatting about this because wehad committed to sabbathing
together when we got married. Ihad started sabbathing prior to
that. He hadn't really done thatin a routine way, but he was
like, I want to do it. And wejust were having a lot of
challenge doing that together.
One of us was never that excitedabout it. And so we sat there
and we actually talked throughGary Thomas's sacred pathways of
(33:20):
how you feel close to God, andjust identified, what are the
ways that you feel close to God.
And that's not exactly the samething as Sabbath, but it can
inform you on things to do. Andso we drew on a napkin, like,
how do we do this together? Andso we still try to figure it
out. I mean, it's also reallyhard to do when you have
children, sometimes we'll taketurns. So sometimes it's every
(33:42):
other Sabbath. It'll be like theway that I Sabbath and he'll do
it with me and the way that heSabbaths, and I'll do it with
him. Or sometimes we'll do halfthe day the way I restore, and
the other half that he restores.
And because Sabbath is also arelational act, I think we
confuse Sabbath with solitude,because they often go together,
but they're not actually thesame. And this is why, I think,
when I was single and I wastrying to Sabbath, it was also
(34:05):
really hard, because I oftenfound myself lonely, and we
don't do a good job as thechurch sabbathing together. It
should be a relational acttogether. So I would say that.
And then, you know, as a with achild, now it's even more so. So
so here's an example of how weSabbath right now on Saturdays.
That's how we we Sabbath onSaturdays. We don't set an alarm
(34:25):
and we wake up naturally.
Usually, my child is the alarmand he'll wake us up.
Joshua Johnson (34:32):
My child's always the alarm.
Arianna Molloy (34:35):
We will make pancakes, we'll watch a movie
together or a show together, andwe'll take time to pray. We
have, until recently, been doingthe prayer of examine, which is
about five steps, where youthink about your your day and
your week, and you talk aboutyou just it's just beautiful.
You can look it up. We listen toeach other. Recently, we've been
doing the Lectio 365 which Ireally enjoy as well, and and
(34:59):
ultimately. Whatever we do thatday, we try to do it in an
unrushed manner. And we do whatJohn Mark comer talks about is
we don't focus on our work, thework the tyranny of the urgent.
We try not to focus on ourworries, which is really hard
for me. I'm an Enneagram six. Inaturally think about, is
(35:19):
everybody safe? What's gonnahappen? How do we strategize
about that? And even the once,like the needs that we have, we
don't think about those threethings. And anytime it comes to
your mind, for me, I probably doit on like an hourly basis.
Lord, I give this to you. I'mdistracted by these things. I
give it to you. And we also arenot on our phone that day. We
have an unplugged box, and wejust don't go on our phone. And
(35:41):
so do we do it well, usuallynot, but do we do it anyway?
Absolutely? Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (35:47):
that's so good.
Yes, we have screen freeSaturdays as well, and it's
really, really key. It's huge.
Spend time with family, doingall those Sabbath things. It's
really regenerative andrestorative for us as a family
and that we could continue inour work, we have to have it. So
rest is really important to workhard without burning out. Okay,
(36:07):
so rest is one. What else is the
Arianna Molloy (36:10):
other thing is to begin to identify the
difference between stress andchronic stress. So in every kind
of job, there's going to bestressful seasons. You know, for
us as academics, it's midtermsand finals. You know, for other
corporate organizations, it's atthe end of each quarter or the
closing year. God bless the taxpeople during tax season, right?
It's those things. It's, youknow, in in health care
(36:33):
settings, it's almost every day,you know, but it's, they're
these, they're these seasonsthat there's a deadline and that
is normal stress. It could evenbe like you're moving you're
remodeling your kitchen, youknow, you're getting married,
you're about to have a baby, allthose things, those are, those
are seasons of stress. That'snormal. Chronic stress is when
(36:55):
we normalize survival mode andwe think that that's the way to
live. Chronic stress iscontinual, and three things
happen. I'm a communicationprofessor, three things actually
happen in our communication thatreally cause relational
breakdown with others, withourselves and even with God. The
first of those things is that wetend to withdraw. When you're in
(37:18):
survival mode, it's a naturalmechanism to withdraw, because
you can't handle it all. And thereality is, withdrawing itself
is not a bad thing, but we don'ttend to communicate that we're
doing it. And so to the peoplein our lives that we love, and
to those in our workplace, wewithdraw and they feel hurt by
it. They misunderstand ourwithdrawal. We hurt ourselves by
(37:39):
doing it, because typically howwe withdraw, if you feel called,
is to work more and to be onyour screen, because all of
those things feel controllable.
So we withdraw. And a perfectexample is you're talking to
someone, and you can tell thatthey're exhausted, and then look
a little bothered, and you say,Hey, are you okay? And they say,
I'm fine. They might even sayit, looking down at their phone
while they're talking to you,I'm fine, they might cross their
(38:01):
arms. I'm fine. Yeah, that's nota good sign. And so if you need
to withdraw you, you need totell people, Hey, I'm actually
having a little bit of a hardtime right now. If I don't seem
like myself this week, I justwant to explain why. Or, hey,
you know, I don't think I cantalk about this thing this week.
I'm really overloaded. Can werevisit this next week? So
that's communicating thewithdraw, you know, or, Hey, I
(38:21):
need to have some alone timethis week. It has nothing to do
with you. I just need a littlealone time. That's good. That's
a good job. The second thingthat can happen in chronic
stress is something calledreduced awareness. So
approximately 70% of ourcommunication is non verbal. I'm
just going to let that land fora second. 70% right? So if 70%
are not the actual words thatwe're saying but how we're
(38:47):
saying them, there's, like,eight different ways that
nonverbal communication comesout how we're saying them. And
if we have reduced awarenesswhere we are in survival mode,
and our goal is to, like, get besafe and get it done right, like
you are missing 70% of thecommunication around you.
Chances are that's going to leadto conflict. So that's a bummer.
(39:08):
You also in that reducedawareness component. Not only
are you missing out on thosecues of others, you're missing
out on the cues of yourself, andwe become over like, almost
overly aware of everything we'redoing wrong. It's kind of like
if there's a blemish on yourface, you think everyone can see
it, but really probably not, andso you become overly self aware.
The third thing that happens inchronic stress is that physical
(39:30):
tension that can lead to panicattacks, depression, accelerated
heart rate, lack of sleep, justa change in the tone of voice
and facial expressions that thatcan really create a sense of
physical tension. And theproblem is, when we have that
kind of anxiety to others, it'susually communicated. They
usually feel it asaggressiveness or passiveness,
(39:50):
even though that's not whatwe're intending. It comes across
as, like, really intense orlike, I don't even care. And so
the problem. Problem withchronic stress is that chronic
stress is the genesis ofburnout. We just miss so much.
And so I would say when we're inthat place, it is not gonna go
away on its own. We have to makechanges that will probably feel
(40:14):
uncomfortable and really, reallyhard. So
Joshua Johnson (40:19):
then, what does it look like to get out of
survival mode, like, Are theresteps to say, Wow, this is not
healthy. This isn't working. Weneed to shift something here.
What do we do? So
Arianna Molloy (40:32):
couple things.
First is course correction.
Takes time, so be very realisticabout the fact that it's not
going to change overnight.
That's the first thing. Thesecond thing is, if we've been
in survival mode, what willhappen? People call it. I've
heard the term Sabbath sadness,but I think we need to almost
change that a little bit. It'salmost like, like burnout
sadness, almost doesn't have thesame alliteration. But when you
(40:55):
slow down, when you try to takea course correction, all of the
emotions that you've beenpushing down will rise to the
surface, and it can be wildlyuncomfortable and deeply
depressing. And so couple thingsabout that emotions are tunnels
that we have to actually gothrough. We cannot avoid them,
(41:17):
but we're also not supposed tolive in the tunnel, so we have
to let ourselves have a littlebit of that sadness. I'm not
talking about depression. I'mjust talking about sadness, and
to let ourselves be sad a littlebit. God might be trying to tell
us something in that sadness.
There's something importantabout lament and examination,
(41:39):
but it's an emotion, so youdon't want to get stuck in the
tunnel. So I would say Sabbathsadness, or that sense of
lingering sadness, is not asignal that something is wrong.
It's a signal that you're ahuman who has feelings that need
to be examined. The other thingI would say is absolutely have
places of accountability. Sopeople who have a healthy
(42:00):
calling, have some some elementof like an advisory board, and
it might not be official, likeyou might not meet together
collectively in a boardroom, butyou might have three to five
people, or if you don't havethis to set it up, three to five
people who you really respect,people that you think can speak
into your life, and you check inwith at least One of them once a
(42:21):
month, so that every month,you're having a place to check
in with people who know you, whoknow your goals, who can remind
you of who you are when you'veforgotten. And you know, there
were times in my life where theyweren't even people I knew, like
CS Lewis was like, on mypersonal board of advisors, you
know, Bernie Brown was like,Okay, I'm gonna listen to what
you're you're saying, and I'mgoing to apply that to my life.
(42:41):
My parents are on my advisoryboard. Our mutual friend Debbie
Pope, you know, she's someonethat I met with periodically, a
lot in grad school, she wouldhave been on my advisory board.
And my best friend is on myadvisory board. And when I meet
with them, and I know in mymind, I'm not doing well right
now, I think I want to withdraw.
What I actually need to do isreach out. I need to reach out
(43:02):
to this person who I know ishealthy, who's not going to tear
me down, but who's going toremind me of who I am. And
frankly, I need to be careful ofbeing around these other people
who are very fine people, butare probably not going to help
me out. In this mode, often
Joshua Johnson (43:17):
in that mode, problem mode, we are going to
withdraw. We're going to beinward focused. We'll be focused
on our feelings, and if we don'treach out, it also reminds me,
we have to look out for otherpeople as well, and we have to,
we have to be people that reachout, because sometimes it's it's
hard when you're in that spaceto be vulnerable enough to reach
(43:39):
out, especially if you don'thave built up relationships
where you can be vulnerable.
What is it? What did it take foryou, then, to find those people
to be vulnerable with and toopen yourself up? How did you
find how did you find yourfriends, like good friend, deep,
deep soul friends that can helpyou. It's
Arianna Molloy (44:04):
a little bit like dating. It can feel
awkward. You're like, trial anderror. Like, does this person
get me? Do I feel good about youknow myself after so, I mean, is
it trial and error? You mightthink that this person that
you've selected in your mind isgoing to be great, and you meet
with them, you're like, I don'tthink so. And it's okay, you
can, I mean, you don't have tomove forward. I think I've
(44:24):
because I've always beenpassionate about mentorship, and
I love to learn from others.
I've always been very watchfulof like, Who do I think is
making some great choices, andhow can I learn from them? I
guess I just automatically,like, I need to ask them to
coffee, I'm going to send theman email. I want to ask some
questions, and the most of thetime, people love to give
advice, so that, I mean, ifyou're not asking for a job, if
(44:46):
you're just asking for advice,people generally want to give
that. I looked at the trackrecord of others. I smile when
you're initially saying that,because I remember a very key
time right after I'd had my sonagain, my husband and I were
kind of the last to get married.
And we were also kind of thelast to have kids, so a lot of
our friends have kids that areolder. So we were going through
it, you know, at a differentstage. And what that means for
(45:08):
me is I was in a different placein my career. I wasn't starting
off. I was like in it, and Iwanted to keep going. And my
sweet, amazing, incredibleparents knew that I felt called
to be a professor, and theyactually moved from Seattle to
California. They left theircommunity to come be
grandparents and help us raiseour kids so that I could keep
(45:30):
doing what I'm doing. And myhusband made changes in his job
too to do the same thing. Sothat's pretty amazing. But I was
like, How do I get back to workafter, you know, having
maternity leave and stuff. So Ithought about the four or five
women on my campus who weregreat scholars. They were
publishing things who talkedwell of their spouses and who
(45:51):
liked their kids, which actuallyis hard to find, all those three
things, and I met with them. AndI guess maybe because I'm a
qualitative researcher. I camewith about 10 questions, I wrote
down the answers, I thematicallyanalyzed the main code, and I
realized it was like, an n offive. No, there's only five
people. But I looked at that andI was like, Okay, I'm gonna
apply this. And so I guess forme, mentorship is seasonal.
(46:15):
Sometimes you meet with someonefor a while and it no longer
serves you or them, and that hasto be okay too. Mentorship is
not a covenant like marriage, soit is okay to modify those
things. But I think for me, Ijust, I looked for people who
gave me life, who inspired me,and I, I set up meetings with
them, and in my mind, I'll evenput a calendar reminder of like,
(46:36):
okay, contact this person in twoweeks. Contact this person in
three weeks. One last thing
Joshua Johnson (46:41):
before we get into final questions. Being
called means that you're alsofocused on community, that there
is an impact. How do we findimpact when we're doing a job?
So you're not the boss, you'renot running things, you're just
doing doing something. How do wefind that impact so that we can
keep going, that we could behealthy and have a healthy work
(47:05):
and healthy calling. But no,it's just something we have to
do so that we could provide forour family. Sure, how do we find
that impact? Yeah, so
Arianna Molloy (47:15):
again, to experience your paid work as a
calling is great. Not everyonehas to do that. They can have
their paid work be a job or acareer, and they might find
their sense of calling in a sidegig, a side hustle, or in a
place of serving. I mean, Idon't know any church that says,
nope. We don't need anyvolunteers, right? So there's
always places to go where youcan live out that sense of
(47:39):
contributing and serving interms of impact, this is part of
the tension of calling, is thatwe don't always see it. You
know, unlike a career which ismotivated by explicit, tangible
outcomes, look, I helped makethis playground happen. Look, I
got a new corner office. Look, Igot to take my family on
vacation. Look, I got this bonusin my check. Oh, calling is more
(48:02):
intangible, and sometimes Ithink that can lead to that
workaholism or job vitalization,because we're wanting to see
this tangible impact. When Imeet with students in the
moment, I don't always see theimpact, but I'll tell you what,
when I get these emails or textsfrom students who have graduated
and who say, Dr Malloy, I justwant to tell you what I learned
(48:23):
is what I'm experiencing. I cry.
I mean, I just like it bringstears to my eyes. And so I guess
in one way, I would say, Heyeveryone else, make sure you
tell people when they'reimpacting you. We need to do a
lot better of a job givingfeedback. It is not enough even
to honestly say, Good jobexplain why it was good, be
(48:44):
specific. And so impact is animportant thing to need and
want. I believe that the Lordwill reveal that to you as you
keep doing what you're meant todo.
Joshua Johnson (48:57):
Because we both had a professor in common,
Debbie Pope in college, we bothhad her. She had a big impact on
my life and love of literature,wanting to be creative and being
in this space. And I know shehad a big impact on you. What
did you take and learn from heras you moved into the role as
(49:18):
professor? How did she and whatshe did for you impacts what you
are doing for students today.
Arianna Molloy (49:26):
Debbie Pope, I love you forever and always. I
had her as a freshman in collegeat a university that just wasn't
the right fit for me, so I wasnot really that excited about
other things, but when I was inher classroom, I felt seen and
heard. I took a public speakingclass from her, and it was as if
every part of me was lit upinside with like a constellation
of stars. I just felt sheequipped me to understand the
(49:51):
importance of organization andpreparedness. She allowed me to
be creative. She helped me feelseen and heard. She was a.
Little bit eccentric, but full,full, unapologetically, full of
energy. And I think she letevery student who walked in be
themselves, but she called themto a higher standard. At the
(50:13):
same time, she forced us towatch ourselves after we did our
talks, you know, she wouldrecord them, and that was maybe
one of the best communicationtechniques I've ever
experienced, and I do that whenI do consulting. So when I'm
working with corporate folks ornonprofit or especially pastoral
staff, I'll have them watchthemselves twice, once with the
sound on, once with the soundoff, and look at some of their
(50:35):
communication patterns. That wasamazing and so and she also has
taught me what it means toembrace life fully at whatever
stage you're in. Her energy hasremained high regardless of you
know the time passing. So Ithink when I go to my classes, I
want every student in that room,the ones in the front, the ones
on the side, the ones in theback, the ones who arrive early,
(50:58):
the ones who arrive late. I wantthem all to know I see them and
they have the capacity for more,and I want them to can you
continue to be who they are, butjust learn more about what that
means to be critical thinkers sothat they are not taken
advantage of by by messages thatreally aren't meant for them to
adopt. So
Joshua Johnson (51:17):
good. Ariana, if people go out, get your book
healthy calling, what do youhope for your readers?
Arianna Molloy (51:23):
Yeah, thank you.
Well, I'd be so grateful firstof all, if you do get it and if
you want to leave me a review,I'd be super grateful for that,
because that helps other peopleknow whether or not it's worth
to read. I wrote this bookimagining sitting across from
from the reader with a coffee towalk alongside them, I would
hope that they don't read it,try to read it overnight, that
they read it, you know, allowingthe process. There's questions
(51:45):
at the end of every chapter forthem to think about. It's a
great book to do in a smallgroup or a book study, but I
think my hope would be that theywould have language to name
feelings and experiences thathave held them in a kind of
prison, because when we namesomething, the chains unlock,
and when we name something, thedoor opens, and when we name
(52:06):
something, we are empowered tomove forward. So that would be
my hope. I'm not going to getall the answers. I'm still
learning myself. I won't everpromise that it's easy, but I
will promise that we canexperience growth. And if you've
been burnt out, or you are burntout, you do not have to stay
there. That is not how the restof your life has to look
Joshua Johnson (52:26):
so good if you go back to your 21 year old
self, what advice would yougive? I
Arianna Molloy (52:30):
heard this combination of a phrase
recently. I just love it somuch. And I would say you are
never too much, and you arealways enough. I love
Joshua Johnson (52:40):
that. Can I take that too? Please? I give it to
you. I need that. Anythingyou've been reading or watching
lately you could recommend,
Arianna Molloy (52:49):
oh my gosh.
Well, I fast to you as a fulltime professor. And I have a
young kid, and we help out withmy parents, who have some
different health needs. I don'tknow that we have a whole lot of
time. I am still savoring theliturgy of everyday life and
also practicing the way. Iactually really love fiction. So
I'm reading this fantastic bookabout an author, a scientist,
who lives in the world offairies, like she studies them,
(53:09):
like actual, like it's existing.
It's, it's really lovely. I tryto read something of CS Lewis's
almost at all times. So that's,that's real. And yeah, I mean,
we're reading, we're watchingall kinds of shows, but I don't
know if I'd recommend them. Youknow, I have really been
enjoying listening to podcastslike yours, because I think
(53:30):
podcasts are a way to connect toothers that we don't have time
to talk with in person, or don'thave the ability to but to just
keep learning. I think is, isreally, really important.
Joshua Johnson (53:41):
Well, healthy calling should be available
anywhere you get books. So goand get healthy calling anywhere
else you'd like to point peopleto how could they connect with
you?
Arianna Molloy (53:50):
Great. So you can go to my website,
arianamoloy.com and so we, Ihave a lot of resources there on
meaningful work calling and justgenerally, healthy communication
tips in the workplace. And ifyou want to reach out to me, I'd
be so happy to chat aboutanything else. There's a way to
do that on my website, Arianamalloy.com but
Joshua Johnson (54:05):
she is not the best conversation partner about
basketball. But anything else,if you want to connect, if you
want to talk to Ariana,
Arianna Molloy (54:17):
that's true. I mean, I can make the Dodgers
because we are a Dodgers family,or the Seahawks, because I'm
from Seattle, Go Hawks, butyeah, basketball, I just don't,
I don't know that I cancontribute
Joshua Johnson (54:27):
much. There you go. There you go. Big, a big
Seahawks fan over here fromSeattle as well. So Ariana, this
was such a fantasticconversation, it made me want to
go take you and your husband outto dinner. Go to Din Tai Fung
with some Xiao Long Bao, andthat would be amazing. That
would be fun. So I would love tocontinue this conversation and
(54:48):
continue to talk to you, becauseit's great, because healthy
calling and healthy work is suchan important thing to know that
we can work out our calling in ahealthy way, in a way that gives
honor and glory to God. But. Indoesn't lead to burnout, that it
doesn't lead to a place where,okay, I'm done, finished. We
can't do this anymore. Whatincredible, incredible research
(55:09):
that you have done so that youcould find places where we can
be healthy in our work. So thankyou for this conversation. I
loved it. Thank you, me too. You
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