May 20, 2025 • 50 mins
Today, I’m joined by Cara Meredith, author of the new book Church Camp. We’re digging into the ways camp shapes our faith, our friendships, and our sense of who belongs. We get real about the fun memories, but also the uncomfortable parts—who was included, who was left out, and what messages we picked up along the way. Cara and I talk about how camp can turn faith into a checklist—who’s in, who’s out, who fits and who doesn’t. But we also imagine what camp could be if it became a place of real belonging, where every kid was seen and valued, no matter their story. If you’ve ever looked back on your camp experience with mixed feelings, or wondered how those weeks shaped your view of God and yourself, you’ll find something here. This episode is about holding the good and the hard together, asking better questions, and dreaming about what’s possible. So join us as we go to camp.
A sought-after speaker, writer, and public theologian, Cara Meredith is the author of Church Camp and The Color of Life. Passionate about issues of justice, race, and privilege, Cara holds a master of theology from Fuller Seminary and is a postulant for Holy Orders in the Episcopal Church. With a background in education and nonprofit work, she wears more hats than she probably ought, but mostly just enjoys playing with words, a lot. Her writing has been featured in national media outlets such as The Oregonian, The New York Times, The Living Church, The Christian Century, and Baptist News Global, among others. She lives with her family in Oakland, California.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cara Meredith (00:00):
We're introducing kids or campers or humans at
(00:03):
large to Jesus, but we're notsaying and now you have to
believe this certain thing. Youhave to be this certain thing.
You have to act the certainthing. You have to wear this
certain thing. We are justsimply saying you are in because
you are human, and as a human,you are loved, and you are
embraced by Jesus, and that'swhat matters.
Joshua Johnson (00:34):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost, Joshua Johnson, today I'm
joined by Kara Meredith, authorof the new book church camp.
We're digging into the ways campshapes our faith, our
friendships and our sense of whobelongs. We get real about the
(00:57):
fun memories, but also theuncomfortable parts, who was
included, who was left out, andwhat messages we picked up along
the way. Kara and I talk abouthow camp can turn faith into a
checklist, who's in, who's out,who fits, who doesn't, but we
also imagine what camp could beif it became a place of real
belonging, where every kid wasseen and valued, no matter their
(01:19):
story. Kara and I both come tothis conversation as campers and
as counselors. Kara was aspeaker at church camp for many
years. I was a coach atbasketball camp for many years.
And for you, if you've everlooked back on your camp
experience with mixed feelingsor wondered how those weeks
(01:41):
shaped your view of God andyourself. You'll find something
here. This episode is aboutholding the good and the hard
together, asking betterquestions and dreaming about
what's possible. So join us aswe go to camp. Here is my
conversation with Kara Meredith.
Kara, welcome to shiftingculture. Excited to have you on
excited to talk about camptoday.
Cara Meredith (02:05):
Thank you.
Excited to be here. Joshua,well, let's
Joshua Johnson (02:08):
get into church camp your new book, which is
great that you dive deep into,really, I would say, white
evangelicalism and church camp,and how those coincide, and what
was the good, the bad and theugly in all of it? What, then,
is your relationship with camp?
And why is camp something thatactually can help you? Unfold by
(02:31):
evangelicalism? And what it is,
Cara Meredith (02:38):
I was big in camp, so I started going to camp
my first summer. I was nineyears old. It was 1988 I'll let
listeners do the math on that.
And then probably eight yearslater, I started volunteering at
camp. Two years later, so 1998 Iworked my first full summer at
camp, what the camp world mightcall a seasonal staff employee.
And then after that, that waswhen I was in college. After
(03:00):
college, I became a high schoolEnglish teacher, and so I had my
summers free, and instead ofthen working at camp all summer,
I was camp speaker. So the campsthat I worked in were most which
were both denominationally andnon denominationally affiliated.
They were pro women. They wereokay with women standing on the
stage preaching or talking. Sothat was really where my camp
(03:23):
experience took me. So camp, tome, was something that happened,
if you count those camper years,really for the better part of 25
years of my life, leading up toabout a decade ago, was when I
finally left as
Joshua Johnson (03:39):
somebody that's been involved in church camp for
a long time. Why is campsomething that you said, Hey, we
want to look at camp, but reallylook under the hood of white
evangelicalism. And why is campa really good feature and focus
for us to look at?
Cara Meredith (03:55):
I am a writer. I write different things, but one
of the things I do is I writebooks. And so my first book came
out in 2019 and then we had thisthing that happened around the
world called the pandemic.
Really, I missed that. Not sureif you knew there was this thing
called the global pandemic,COVID 19. So COVID happens, the
pandemic happens. And my writingstalled, not only because life
(04:18):
was really hard, but I thinkalso because there was a bigger
message for me, and it was amessage of the both. And so from
that, I had another book that Iput together. It was a
collection of essays that paireddifferent words, different
opposite words together, andlooked at how both could be true
at the same time. So got throughthe pandemic, I created this
(04:41):
book, this book of essays. Myagent takes it to sell to
publishers, and publishers saythanks, but no thanks. We need a
through line. We don't wantindividual essays. We want to
hear we want you to go deep withone story. So I say that
because, as I thought back. Workon life and on my own
experience. That's where, when Ilooked at and thought about
(05:04):
camp, I thought, wow, Camp isone of the most formative places
for me. I am who I am todaybecause of camp, so many of my
best friends are from this exactplace. And as I've gotten older,
I don't like the worddeconstruction in general, but
as I've gotten older, I thinkthere has been a spiritual
(05:25):
evolution of sorts, a changethat has happened, and that's
when, as I looked back on camp,I also saw that there were some
unhelpful parts, some harmfulparts, that I deemed helpful for
a long, long time. But as lifewent on, I began to see those
through a different lens. Soreally, the book birthed from
paradox and from holding thetension. So
Joshua Johnson (05:48):
I want to go into the tension, and before we
dive into some particulars ofcamp and what that was like as
you were writing these essays,and you were thinking about both
and and spiritual life and a ourdaily lives, our political
lives, just every part of ourlives. It seems to me, and I've
heard a statistic that there isa small percentage of the
(06:10):
population that could actuallyhold a both hands. They really
just think through either ortype of things. It's all black
and white. Gray is verydifficult for a lot of people,
how do we walk into tension whenwe know that there is bad and
there is good? And we could holdboth at the same time and
actually take what is, what isgood in the middle of it, and
(06:30):
then actually say, hey, this mayhave harmed you, and I'm sorry.
And like, really wrestle withthose things. What is like
walking into the tension? Looklike no
Cara Meredith (06:41):
one has asked me that question before. Joshua,
this is good. I think walkinginto the tension means holding
an openness, holding or havingan openness. It means embracing
when we have been right and whenwe have been wrong. And again, I
think this is to me, this ispart of the gray, which is part
of the mystery, but which isalso part of God. I now call the
(07:05):
Episcopal tradition home. I saythat because my very last class
in seminary, this was 15 yearsago, but it was a class on
Anglican theology, and I becamea convert after that. I mean, I
just was like, but it was, thereality is that I fell in love
with a theology, and thatthere's a deep theology within
(07:26):
the Episcopal or Anglicantradition that embraces the
mystery, which to me, isembracing the both end and so
even though there were so manypeople, I interviewed a wide
variety, almost 50 people forthis book, there were folks who
absolutely wanted to just throwcamp under the bus. They were
like, burn it all up. And thenthere were folks who were like,
(07:47):
there is absolutely nothingwrong with camp. Kids meet Jesus
here. This is one of the mostincredible parts. And I think
there are, there are, or were,or there are folks. There are
those of us in the middle whosay, Yes, we can hold both. And
for me, I acknowledge the goodand I acknowledge the bad that I
(08:07):
participated in, that Iperpetuated. So I think there's
a willingness to be able to holdor see both. I'm not sure how to
how to answer that, but I thinkthat's where I start. That's
Joshua Johnson (08:19):
a good starting place. And so let's dive into
some of that, the good and thebad, the tension of camp. My my
camp experience, I would say wewere on the periphery of of
Christian camp. I went to abasketball camp every summer,
and we, you know, it was aChristian camp, but we really
didn't talk much about Jesusuntil the final night. And we
(08:41):
talked a little bit about Jesus,right? Of course, it's the final
night. You got to talk aboutJesus. But we it was really
value space, but it was reallytransformative for me. And I
then continued as as acounselor, coach, teacher in the
in those camps for many yearsand and I've had, like, some of
my most formative experienceswere in camp, but I didn't have,
(09:05):
like, this particular churchcamp experience that you were
talking about in the book. Sotake me into what you have seen
as a, I would say, a typicalwhite evangelical church camp.
And where did it come from?
What's the history of it, andwhat was like the the formation
of these camps, and what was thethe ultimate goal?
Cara Meredith (09:29):
Well, I write quite a bit about this,
especially in the very firstchapter, as you may well know.
But if we can, if we can put itplainly, the point of campus
conversion, the point of campusto convert, and it is to convert
Yes, to a particular way ofthinking, as far as a viewpoint
of who Jesus is and of who Godis through an evangelical lens.
(09:52):
But it also is to convert tonorms found within white
evangelicalism. That's where.
Can also it can be hard todefine, because white
evangelicals are not are notjust defined by what they
believe, but they're oftendefined also by their voting
habits, by their culturalpreferences, by a whole litany
of things. Now
Joshua Johnson (10:13):
we have, we have studies that say Muslims are
identifying as evangelicals andbecause of their political
stances. So it's justinteresting that way. So it's
true. Keep going, yeah,
Cara Meredith (10:25):
yeah. I mean, you look at the 81% like the reality
is that it's not just aboutvoting a particular person into
power. It's also about thevalues that are embodied within
this belief system. So for me,the book is deeply theological,
even if we're unpacking a wholelot of things along the way. But
(10:46):
the book is laid out by theseven main talks that I gave as
a camp speaker over the years,and that was at a number of
different types of camps, fromyoung life camps to again,
denominational and nondenomination non denominational
camps. And I think all of thoseplaces, in all of those places,
it goes back to, really, it goesback, you're looking at
(11:10):
conversion, but it also goesback to particular message that
is going to get a person, orpersons, from point A to point
B. And so if the point isconversion, then how do we get
there? Along the way, we can,then we can then say, well, we
get there by presenting the fourspiritual laws. Bill Wright
Campus Crusade for Christ 1956he comes up with the four
(11:31):
spiritual laws, which, whichresults in literally billions of
people around the worldconverting to a particular brand
or type of Christianity, andthat that's where, you know, I
always used to laugh at it, butthat's where you have the two
cliffs. If listeners could seeme now, I'm putting up my two
fingers, and you have, you haveman on one cliff, it was never a
woman, and you have God on theother cliff, and and God loves
(11:55):
you so much and wants to, wantsto be connected to you, but God
cannot be connected to you, orhe cannot be connected to you.
It was always also a male god,because sin separates you, and
that's when Jesus comes in onthe cross. And so in the camp
context, there was oftentimes amessage that was presented over
the week that was a truncatedversion of the four spiritual
(12:17):
laws that oftentimes erredheavily on the side of penal
substitutionary atonementtheory, which was one particular
way of viewing God, but it wasalso a particular way of viewing
self that I argue was actuallyreally harmful. And through
that, I mean, there are so manyother parts of camp, from a
speaker's position and reallyfrom, from and through and with
(12:39):
a lot of different camps. Thisis, if conversion is the end
goal, then this is how you getconverts. Is by preaching this
message,
Joshua Johnson (12:48):
so all the fun and all the games and
everything, and it leads intonightly talks, leading people
into this conversion experience.
If you look back with a lot oftalks that lead to conversion
experiences, one time,conversion experiences a lot of
times, don't lead to long,lasting authentic faith.
Sometimes it's it is like, Hey,I had this mountaintop moment.
(13:11):
And then they're thinking, Man,I don't know how this reaches my
my everyday life. So it's notreally there for me,
discipleship, mystery, all thosethings need to happen so that we
actually see God with us in ourlife. And what that what that
looks like. So if part of thatis like this mountaintop
(13:32):
experience, is there a differentway that you think that camp may
may be structured that could behelpful to people to wrestle
with things throughout theirentire life, and not just have a
mountaintop experience and butmountaintop experiences can be
good too. So this, how do youwrestle with it in the middle of
(13:54):
it, knowing that, hey, we onlyhave a week with these kids, but
then, like, follow up and stufftoo, like all of that stuff is,
is in the mind of people lookinglike, what's next? How do we do
this? Is there a way to toshift? I
Cara Meredith (14:11):
am a huge outdoor person. Outdoors person. I'm not
sure if we put an S on that, butpart of why I am an outdoors
person is because that is whereGod meets me. And I know whether
I step into the backyard, intomy garden and I'm just out
there, or whether I go on ahike, or whether I take my kids
(14:31):
camping, or whatever it is. Iknow that I if I am out in the
outdoors, then I am, I'm goingto come into a space in which
the sacred and the holy isthere, and I'm going to be
confronted by God. And so Ithink where, I think part of the
tension that has happened with alot of our camps, which is not
(14:53):
true of every camp, but in a lotof our camps, I think because,
because it's. What we think kidsneed, kids or campers, or
whomever is there camps become,can so easily become
programmatic spaces that aretrying to entertain, that are
trying to just be big and campy,for lack of a better word or
phrase, they're trying to be,you know, the most explosive and
(15:16):
the funniest and and the andthat also then goes down into
how God is presented, just inbeing or trying to be. The
biggest of all, it's almost asif we forget that that God is
already in that space, and thatthere need not be this
convincing that needs to happen.
So I think for me, an answer toyour question. I think I do want
(15:36):
to say there are, I think thereare so many camps that are doing
it right? I think camp is a giftin and of itself. So many places
don't allow cell phones, youknow, so and our kids are all
getting cell phones younger andyounger. So it's, it's one of
those that cell phones arebanned for the week. But if
there can simply be aninvitation to to to bask in the
beauty that is in front of you,I think that's one of the things
(16:00):
but, but that's one of thethings that camp allows. It
allows time and space to just beand to then not have to fill the
gap with with with convincing,with trying to convince another
of what they need.
Joshua Johnson (16:15):
That's good, and that's helpful. I start, and I I
agree with it. I think it's, Ithink it's a start. I mean, I'm
just saying, how do we how do wedo that? How do you shift a
whole mindset, saying that it'smy job to entertain, and it's my
job to if I was the MC at nightthere, my job was to be the
(16:35):
clown like it was. That was partof it, right? So my job is to
entertain, to do skits, to do dothings, to make sure that these
kids can be engaged andentertain. So what is, then, the
tension between engaging andentertaining and in a space of
like holding holding space toencounter the divine in in a
(16:58):
real sense, in a real thing, andit's not just a show, but it's,
it's the real thing. What?
What's the balance when you'reyou do have those tensions?
Cara Meredith (17:10):
No, I think that's a great question. And
perhaps you and I can meetcollaboratively afterwards to
come up with with a list of whatcan be done. But I think it's, I
think our culture, and I lovethat your podcast is called
shifting culture. I think thereis a belief in within our
culture, and whether that's justfor parents and teachers and
(17:30):
caregivers or for the entireculture, but for our this
generation of our children, thatthey have to be constantly
entertained. And there's,there's a different word for
that. But so, for instance, oneof my children, he's 10. One of
my boys just broke his leg twoweeks ago while we were camping
over spring break. Not exactlythe best thing. Yeah, thank you.
(17:51):
It was our family's first break.
It was a very big deal. He has abig red pass. Now I got to sign
mom with a heart around it. Ifelt very glad, very happy that
he let me do that. But for Theo,my son, there's not a whole lot
he can do right now, besidesjust lay on the couch. It's
really easy for me as a parentto simply let him be on a screen
the entire time, because whatelse I feel kind of bad. What
(18:15):
else is he supposed to do? Hecan't throw the football, he
can't play baseball on his team.
He can't, he can't do anything,but I can let him not be on a
screen the whole time, and I canlet him figure out what he can
do when he is not beingconstantly entertained. And so
it, it can almost hurt. Italmost hurts him for me to take
(18:35):
away the iPad, and then he'slike, oh, wait a minute. I can
play my trumpet and make up newsongs, which are horrible, by
the way, but I support itbecause he's just, he's just
blowing air into this gold I'm
Joshua Johnson (18:48):
glad you support it. My parents wouldn't let me
practice the trumpet. I gotkicked out of fourth grade band
because I did not practice. Andnow I don't know how to play an
instrument, you know. So Joshua,good job. Way to support it.
Send
Cara Meredith (18:59):
you ours at the end of the school year, and you
can learn because I don't wantto hear it anymore. Thank you.
But I mean there, just as thereare, you know, just as there is
this undergirding belief that weneed to entertain our children,
our children being all of ourchildren, what would it look
like in a camp setting to do thesame, to just let kids figure
(19:20):
that out, and to figure out thetrumpet that's lying right there
beside them, and to just, youknow, like, again, I take my
boys camping and I see whathappens when we get into the
woods. I mean, granted, brokenlegs happen, but also they don't
get screens when they're there.
And pretty soon, they're makingnew best friends to campsites
over or they're riding theirbike until, you know, nine
(19:42):
o'clock, until it gets dark.
They're, they're burning theirmarshmallows as black as they
can. You know, I mean, they're,they're figuring out fun because
they're being given anopportunity to simply enter in
and embrace we
Joshua Johnson (19:56):
need to create spaces where kids are bored. I.
Cara Meredith (20:01):
Be bored exactly, because then good things are
going to happen from it. Yes,that's
Joshua Johnson (20:06):
good. So when you were looking back and you
were saying, okay, maybe all ofthis good stuff that I thought
was was really good, hey, maybethere was some stuff that was
was malforming me. It wasn'tforming me in a way that
actually is was helpful. What?
What were the threads? What werethe things that you started to
pick at that really started itlike this? Oh, maybe that was
(20:27):
the malforming thing. Therewere,
Cara Meredith (20:31):
there were a number of malformations, if we,
if that's a word, I think forme, it started with people. I
began to look around and see whowas not there. Within
Christianity, there's a, youknow, we oftentimes use the
phrase of who's sitting at thetable or who is welcome at the
table. And so for me, I began tosee that. I began to see the
(20:53):
exclusion that was taking place,in particular toward women,
toward people of color, andtoward the queer community. I
began to see that in the threadsof of people that I loved, the
two people that are that thisbook is dedicated to, were both
people that were their names areMichael and Sarah, and they are
two dear, dear people to me, oneof whom is a person of color,
(21:16):
the other person, the other ofwhom is white, they both came
out later in life, and thereality is that for both of
them, the camps that they workedat kicked them out because they
were not straight. And so thatwas where a lot of this started
for me, there was also a deeptheological starting place that
I really just began to wrestlewith, both the message I had
(21:39):
always believed, but also themessage I was communicating
about who God was and about whowe as humans were. And I do not
think that we need to be made tofeel like horrible human beings.
One of my chapters that's onthis is titled dirty, rotten
little sinners. And I just don'tbelieve that that is who God
(22:00):
sees us as so if we're talkingabout human depravity, I think
there are other ways that we canlook at God and about how God
looks at us that doesn't makepeople feel like pieces of poo.
So I think I'm not sure how, howmuch your listeners want me to
cuss on air, but yeah, so Ithink the starting point, okay,
(22:24):
who is the word we're gonna use?
Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (22:27):
makes me it makes me laugh. Now, if we're in
these spaces, whiteevangelicalism, we've made God a
little bit into our own image,made Jesus into our own image,
instead of being in the maid, inthe image of God, where we're
transposing it, what wereaspects that you've seen that
(22:49):
go, oh, that actually doesn'tactually look like Jesus, God,
that looks more like whiteWesterners?
Cara Meredith (22:57):
Well, I think I saw this most, heard this most
with the people of color that Iinterviewed, and as I note in
the book, the easiest, theeasiest people to find to
interview were white, straightmales. The second easiest were
white, straight females, andthen poor identifying people.
(23:18):
And finally, people of color.
And to me, that also shows theharm that happened. So in that
way, I think a lot of theconformity happened the a lot of
the conformity that whiteevangelicalism invites folks
into is a conformity that looksand believes a certain way. It's
a conformity of assimilation.
(23:39):
There was one young black manthat I interviewed, and he had I
found him and invited him to doan interview after after reading
something that he had writtenonline, but of the cultural and
theological assimilations thathe was invited into, this is
what he writes. I'm just goingto read a short paragraph. I
lament the idea I needed to buyChocos use multi color
(24:01):
highlighters from my Bible andlisten to white Christian music
to feel like I was a part ofwhat God was doing. As a black
kid, I felt forced to sacrificethe parts of my blackness I
loved and the parts I didn'teven know existed to have a seat
at a table which was built onwhite normativity. I do not like
comfort colors T shirts, butthat's what I wore because young
(24:22):
life told me that's what Ishould like. My blackness was
once used as the punch line ofthe skit because my area
director said there would benothing funnier than a large,
angry black man come only comingin and tackle, tackling someone.
So I think that within this,yeah, there. I think that the
conformity and the assimilationis real. And, yeah, and I think
(24:46):
it's something we need tolament.
Joshua Johnson (24:47):
I remember a few, I think it was few years
ago. I was teaching in Brazil,and I was teaching on on
something, and found inEphesians and and I remember
afterwards, this, this. Pastorcame up to me and says, I've How
come I've never heard this like,this is the first time we've
we've heard these things. And Iactually had to apologize. It's
(25:09):
like, I apologize for my whiteevangelical brothers that have
transported something thatwasn't actually in Scripture,
but it was just culturally partof what they knew. This is the
thing that I think we have to dosome work to be more self aware
(25:29):
in our own awareness. Becauseoftentimes, I think that at camp
counselors and people at Camppastors, people, they don't know
what they don't know. And Ithink most of them are really
trying their best, and they'rejust regurgitating information
that they have heard. What isWhat do you think that work
(25:51):
looks like for people to say?
Maybe I don't have everythingfigured out. Maybe as
everything's not as certain as Ithought it was, what can I start
to do to help me, like, lift theblinders off?
Cara Meredith (26:07):
That's a big question, and that also might be
one that you and I need to meetafter this podcast episode to
come up with a huge list. Idon't know if there is a way in
which this can be forced. Ithink so much of this is time
for me, for instance, myexperience of marrying my
husband, who identifies asBlack, who is the son of a civil
rights icon that was really biginvitation into wrestling with
(26:34):
and identifying my whiteness andprivilege. And so for me, 1516,
years ago, when we met. I needto figure out when we met and
married, and do the math at somepoint. But for me, that was,
that was really the start of myown journey into issues of
racial justice, but also, again,owning my own privilege and my
(26:56):
whiteness in the same way whenit comes to and that would be,
that would be, I should add ajourney that I am still on, that
I will always be on, becausemine is a learned experience and
not a lived experience. In thesame way when it comes to our
spirituality, when it comes toour belief systems, to
Christianity, I don't know if wenest, if there necessarily needs
(27:18):
to be, if there has to be acatalyst for that. Maybe the
catalyst is just like a, youknow, an inkling inside. And
maybe then it's a matter of,okay, I'm gonna start reading
books that challenge me. Iremember when I was in seminary,
we had all of our main books,and the reality is that those,
those main books were all, forthe most part were written by
(27:41):
white men, and then we sometimeshad alternative titles, and
those would be the titles thatwere written by people of color
or by women. So so maybe it's amatter of looking at our
bookshelves and I'm saying,Okay, who do I need to be
learning from that is not ishere that literally, they're not
on my bookshelf, so we startreading and listening and
(28:03):
learning to others. I think forme, there was a big unpacking
that happened theologically andand this was one of those. I
again, I don't like the worddeconstruction, but I think it
was my own deconstructionprocess, or at least how culture
might define a deconstructionprocess in which it just things
(28:25):
just weren't sitting right withme anymore. And so for me, I
process through writing. That'sthat's how I process sometimes I
process verbally, but I processthrough writing. So I began to
write through these things andto question and just to, just to
go, to let it be a question too,because I think the world I was
in for so long, you didn'tquestion things because it was
(28:46):
so black and white. You eitherbelieved and when you believed
you were in, or you didn'tbelieve, and when you didn't
believe you were out. So so whatdid it mean to still be a part
of that, but to also let myselfquestion and wrestle with that,
that didn't sit right within me.
Joshua Johnson (29:02):
I think one of the things there, I mean, a lot
of people have been talkingthrough bounded sets and
centered sets, centered setwhere Jesus is the center. And
no matter where you are, ifyou're facing towards Jesus,
that's fantastic. You could bereally close to Jesus, like
facing away from him, and you'renot even even going towards them
at all. You're going the otherdirection. But it looks like
(29:26):
camp there is like, Hey, here'sthe here's the bounded set.
Here's the line on, you know, oncry night, we're gonna get you
in to this, this bounded set.
Now you could be a part of thefamily of God, and now you're
in. How has that beenperpetrated and thought about in
camp? If you look back on whatit is of here's a line, and the
(29:49):
people, some people are in, somepeople are out, and we treat
people differently, whetherthey're in or out. I
Cara Meredith (29:58):
define this at least in the book. Like whether
or not it makes sense to otherpeople, but I define it as a
caveat of belonging, whereoftentimes there's a message of
Jesus. The message of Jesus isproclaimed and is taught from
the front and in the reality isthat is that Jesus is the most
beautiful part of the Christianfaith, like Jesus is why we call
(30:20):
ourselves Christians becauseJesus died and rose again, and
we have life after life afterdeath, like N T Wright would
say. But I think within a campsetting, there is oftentimes a
bounded set of Christianity thatis presented, but it's presented
through the lens of Christ andof who Jesus was. So what does
it mean instead to invite, likeyou're saying, to invite people
(30:44):
into a belief system about whoJesus is that is unbounded, one
of the one of the things I alsothat I write, I say, when Christ
is the well, everyone is in andno one is out, artificial
boundaries, sometimes disguisedas caveats of belonging are
thrown out the window, or forpurposes of Camp speak off the
second platform on the highropes course, you know the one
(31:06):
right before that unwielding setof unstable bridges. This time
when a camp speaker introducescampers to a man who is the
biggest gift of all to thetender pioneer whose generous,
wild inclusion paved a way forthe rest of us to be equally
generous and wild in the love weshow other people. They actually
mean it. So we're introducingkids or campers or humans at
(31:28):
large to Jesus, but we're notsaying and now you have to
believe this certain thing. Youhave to be this certain thing.
You have to act this certainthing. You have to wear this
certain thing. We are justsimply saying you are in because
you are human, and as a human,you are loved, and you are
embraced by Jesus. And that'swhat matters.
Joshua Johnson (31:46):
That's beautiful. And I think that
means it's then, hey, I'm inthis beautiful well, and now
it's a process of life, like, Iget to, like, go on this
journey. And, you know, ourChristian life is, is really a
pilgrimage to God. And soinstead of, I think what we have
done, especially at Campus, ifthe goal is conversion, the goal
(32:10):
is like, one decision, you'rein, you're done, right? You get
your get out of hell, free card,and you're you're set. Then just
do whatever you want the rest ofyour life. You're You're good,
but we got you
Cara Meredith (32:24):
Yeah, or you're good, until next summer, when
you do it again and you recommityour life to Jesus for the 37th
time. Yeah, yeah.
Joshua Johnson (32:30):
Which happens over and over again at camp,
right? What then is, is a campfor pilgrims. What is, what's
the camp that looks, looks alittle different. What you're
calling people to right there,and what you just read, what is
a camp like that? It is
Cara Meredith (32:46):
a great question.
There are several places in thebook that I highlight camps that
are proclaiming a differentmessage, that are valuing a
different thing. I think again,about my own family, I identify
as white. My husband identifiesas black. Our two boys identify
as mixed race, some days andsome days, they identify as
(33:07):
black. I don't know if they willever identify as white, not only
because of the color of theirskin, but also as and because of
how society identifies them, butfor them, when I think about the
conversations we have around thedinner table, it is a
conversation that is wild andcrazy. I'm always a little
scared when someone comes in,because you never know what's
(33:30):
going to come out of theirmouth, out of their mouths. But
it is a conversation that is acompass that can be encompassed
by their spiritual identities,by their racial identities, by
who they are, intellectually andemotionally, by and physically,
by all the different parts andfacets of who they are and what
makes them them. And so how,then, in leading to your to the
(33:54):
an answer to your question, howdo we encompass and honor and
celebrate all the many parts ofwho we are. Part of why I have a
hard time thinking about sendingmy own kids to the camps that I
spent so many years at isbecause I don't know if they are
going to be honored for for whothey are and celebrated for who
(34:17):
they are, if they are going towalk away feeling like the only
way that they can be loved. Andthis is, this is an answer of
both spiritual and racialcomplications, if they are only
going to feel loved if theybelieve in a certain if they
believe a certain message andlook a certain way, then then
that is, I have done adisservice to them. The camp has
(34:39):
done a disservice to them. Sopractically speaking, I think
there are a ton of camps thatare doing it right, that are
honoring kids and campers inthose ways. This is not a
Christian camp, but there is.
There's a camp I found along theway. It's a Jewish camp for kids
of color, and it takes placeevery summer in Marin County,
which is no. San Francisco, herein the Bay Area, but they bring
(35:03):
in Jewish kids, some of whom arespiritual and andor religious,
some of whom are not, becauseJudaism can oftentimes be
encompassed by both. But theybring in these kids, and they
they celebrate both theirreligious and cultural
identities as young Jewishchildren, and they celebrate
their identities as children ofcolor, and they merge the two of
(35:26):
them together. So this camp haswhich Jewish camping is a whole,
whole other conversation,because it is a thing for our
Jewish brothers and sisters, butthey are doing something
different, and the kids who aregoing there are having life
changing experiences. So I thinkthat's part of how we start, is
by honoring the wholeness of whoperson is.
Joshua Johnson (35:47):
I think that's such a great starting point,
like we could, we could seepeople for who they are, and not
think of a program. And I thinkthat's just in every aspect of
our lives, is so easy to thinkprogram and programmatically in
everything that we do, and it'sso much more difficult to see
(36:10):
people for who they are and tryto meet people where they're at.
It's just more difficult, likepractically speaking, it's
harder to do that. So I commendpeople for doing that, and it's
a good hard work that they'redoing. As you started to
interview all these 50 people,did you see any any common
(36:31):
themes as you were interviewingpeople, of things that came out
of their answers? I
Cara Meredith (36:37):
would say the two questions that probably got the
biggest response. There was aquestion, and I openly write
about this in the book, but Isay true or false, and I
recognize also, I'd say this isprobably a leading question, but
true or false camp was made forwhite, straight, rich kids.
There was an outstanding numberof people who absolutely agreed
(37:00):
with that and and the reality isthat I think that is seen not
only in the cost of camp and whohas been showing up. It's seen
in then in the racialdisparities that take place,
both within staff, but also ofcampers. And it's seen certainly
in the in who is there and whois not there. And so camps
(37:20):
because of their because oftheir standing as nonprofit
organizations are allowed todiscriminate also against kids
with different sexual or genderidentities. I think the other
piece though, one of thequestions I asked, I said, What
was the theology communicated orthat you perceived at camp? And
this was where, and I did. Itried to interview a whole bunch
(37:42):
of folks, both people who werefrom, people who were still in
the camping world, who said, MyGod, this is the best thing that
has ever happened to the world,all the way to those who were
like, burn the place down. Andthrew in a couple of expletives
along the way. But when it cameto the theology, this was also
one of those that there was anoverwhelming response. Here are
(38:06):
just a few of them. Jesus savedyou from an angry God. You were
saved from going to hell.
Another one, you're dirty, butdon't worry, God loves you so
much that he killed his onlyson. A third one, Jesus loves
me, but his dad thinks I'm apiece of poo. There's another
word written in the book, butI'm not sure if your listeners
are listening to this whiledriving in the car with small
(38:29):
humans and another one, I'm awretched sinner, and I don't
exist, and I cannot existwithout God. And I think about
those statements, and there'smore that are listed in the
book, but I think about thoseand about what that communicates
about who God is, but also whatthat communicates about who
humans are. And to me, it's nowonder that wide swaths of those
(38:53):
who previously identified asChristians are deconstructing by
the day and are, are are notfinding God within themselves or
within their belief systems.
They're not. There's not athere's fit. No longer exists
between the two.
Joshua Johnson (39:11):
If you talk to these, some of these people that
are then deconstructing, if youdon't like to use the word,
although the word has been useda lot in this conversation. We
can use the word, but if we wetalk through like, then what it
what actually holds people like,if you have have talked to
(39:34):
people, or talk to people andgo, Man, this church camp
experience wasn't great. Youknow, I want to burn it all
down, or my faith, there wasn'tmuch to it. I don't find God in
here. Is there anything that isthat is holding people in the in
the midst of a place where theydo feel unmoored and they feel
(39:56):
like, Hey, I don't know what'swhat's up anymore. I don't know
what. Right and wrong. I don'tknow what's up and down. I just
like, what is it? Is thereanything holding people? And is
there, like, a common theme thatyou've seen in the midst of
people wrestling with thesethings that they're being held
with? That's
Cara Meredith (40:15):
a good question, to which I say, to all of your
questions, you're a very goodquestion. Asker Joshua, just
like to point that out. I thinkI have a hard time answering
this, because I think it isdifferent for everyone. I think
the pandemic did a number on ourchurches and on our belief
systems and and maybe that'sjust something that I'm seeing
(40:37):
on the west coast, but I don'tthink that we are the same
people, not just the pandemic,but also the racial reckoning
that's happening in our countryalso, you know, I mean just all
these different movements thathave been happening over the
last 20 years. TheologianPhyllis tickle, she, she had a,
she has a book, I think it's,it's a 2008 so it's almost 20
years old now. But her book TheGreat emergence, which is, which
(40:59):
is about the the fact that every400 years, starting with Christ,
every 400 years, there is thisreckoning, there is this there
is this laundry basket beingturned upside down and over with
with that which was the face ofChristianity that is then dumped
out and made anew. And shewrites or wrote them, we are in
that season right now, which shecalls the great emergence in
(41:21):
which everything is being flipturned upside down. So is there
something that is holding thesepeople? I think for those who,
who who continue to find solacein or with God and or with the
church, I think there issometimes solace in other faiths
or forms of spirituality thatare more open to their belief
(41:42):
systems. So for instance there,I think a lot of folks are
finding home in a lot of folkswho maybe were in that
previously are finding a home inpost evangelical environments or
in Protestant environments. Iknow for me, I found a home in
the Episcopal Church, which iswildly different in some
aspects, from what I grew upwith and from this world that I
was encompassed within, and alsoit's the same, I think for a lot
(42:06):
of people, though there, aspeople deconvert And are leaving
Christianity by the by the 1000severy single day, they don't
necessarily step into newenvironments. And so I don't
know what's holding them, but Ido think they are forever
searching and looking, andthat's and so what does it mean
to notice that and to hopefullycreate spaces where people can
(42:28):
still
Joshua Johnson (42:29):
okay? Kara, I want to end in the camp
conversation with something,some camp experience that was
really life giving for you. Itcould be as as a camper or as a
counselor. What was really lifegiving
Cara Meredith (42:46):
again, Joshua and his questions, the image that
comes to my mind. So for twosummers, the two summers after
my freshman and sophomore yearof college, I went and worked at
this camp, and I was a ropescourse instructor. And we would,
we would, we would, there was ateam probably of five or six of
us, and we would go from thedifferent all these different
elements. There was the ropescourse itself, you, but you
(43:09):
could also be the the lowelements instructor and the
climbing the climbing wallinstructor and the zip line
instructor. So you would justrotate every single week to
these different places. And whenwe were on the high ropes.
Course we would we would don ourour harness. We would have our
harness along with a big, longrope and our carabiners that
(43:30):
were attaching us. And we alwayshad to have someone up in the
trees who would just be danglingfrom the trees to help kids
campers when they came through,because there would always be
that scary person, or therewould always be that person who
was really scared. So for me, Ithink there's that image of of
(43:50):
kind of being held and ofdangling, but also of helping
others, and of the confidencethat came from that I wasn't
necessarily super scared to goup there. I thought it was
pretty fun to just hang anddangle from the ropes at the
top, but you there had to be anelement of trust. And so I think
for me, just the confidence,also that camp instilled, but
(44:13):
the desire to help and and thenbeing just being acknowledged
and being celebrated for exactlywho I was in that moment, but
also just overall, I think thatwas something that camp gave me
that I'm just so grateful for.
Joshua Johnson (44:29):
That's beautiful. It's a beautiful
image. I love the picture ofthat and what that means, and
that says about community andwho we are and with one another,
and especially in this, thisworld of America, when it's
hyper individualism and it's allabout me, I think that that's a
beautiful picture that you justpresented. Kara, I have a couple
(44:51):
of questions. We're one. Whathope do you have for church
camp, that for your readers,people would pick it up and
read? What do you hope that theywould get from this?
Cara Meredith (45:00):
Yes, I hope that they laugh. I hope that they
feel deeply. I hope that theywrestle with the mystery, and I
hope that they walk away longingfor something better and
realizing that something betteris possible.
Joshua Johnson (45:17):
If you could go back to your 21 year old self,
what advice
Cara Meredith (45:21):
would you give?
Ask? More questions. Yeah, good
Joshua Johnson (45:26):
advice. Very good advice. There
Cara Meredith (45:28):
you go. I feel like these are rapid fire, so I
don't need to, I don't need toadd anything. But no, that's
fantastic with that. Yeah, fitwith the implications of that.
Joshua Johnson (45:38):
All right, anything you've been reading or
watching lately you couldrecommend?
Cara Meredith (45:41):
Well, my husband and I are very, very behind, but
we have been reading or we'vebeen watching, excuse me,
bridgerton. We took like a, likea year pause, but we we've been
picking it up just even thislast week, and we're like, oh,
this is so good. I just readthis book. It's very big and
(46:02):
fat. It's titled, here I am byJonathan Safran Foer. He's the
one that wrote Extremely Loudand Incredibly Close. This one,
I feel like this one, all of thelike funky theology nerds who
are drawn to, for those of uswithin the Christian within
Christian spaces, who are drawnto the Old Testament and the
(46:24):
Jewish tradition are going tofind resonance with this book,
which, which honestly follows,follows part of the story of
Abraham. So, but it's completelyfictional, set in New York City,
modern day. So, yeah, I justread that. I don't know if I
would say that I loved it, but Idid finish it. I was intrigued.
So
Joshua Johnson (46:45):
Congratulations on finishing here I am. That's a
that's a feat. It's always nicewhen he when he finished a
novel, it
Cara Meredith (46:53):
was a lot of pages. I stopped at like, 200 I
was like, this is a commitmentfrom the free little library.
Big one, it's good.
Joshua Johnson (47:03):
How can people go out and get church camp? And
where would you like to pointpeople to? How could they
connect with you? Yes,
Cara Meredith (47:10):
church camp is available, or will be available
on April 29 wherever books aresold, I would encourage you to
go into your local bookstore andorder it, just because I always
love supporting local,independent places, but you can
also find it online, whereveryou like to buy books. You can
connect with me. I'm onsubstack.
Carameridath.substack.comotherwise I'm on most of the
(47:34):
internet spaces, and in thoseplaces I am. Kara Meredith
writes in most of those places,
Joshua Johnson (47:42):
perfect. Well.
Kara, thank you for thisconversation. I really enjoyed
talking to you. I really enjoyedgetting into camp experience
what it was like, the good, badand the ugly of it, and how
maybe we could reimaginesomething different. Thank you
for actually accepting some ofthese, like heavy, deep, hard,
practical questions that I threwat you because they were, I
(48:05):
think they're good, somethingthat we should wrestle with. I
really think that as we're we'rethinking about how, how we
entertain, how we try to makeGod in our own image, how we
have made people who are in orpeople who are out, we want to
make sure that people look likeus. All of those, those issues I
(48:27):
think, are really good to dealwith that we have to start to
uncover what is behind those andreally get to the what, what
Richard Rohr says, the reallyreal underneath everything. And
when we do that, I think, hey,this world can be beautiful and
camp can be beautiful. So thankyou for wrestling with those
(48:48):
things with me, and thank youfor this conversation. It was
fantastic. Thanks. Joshua, you
We're introducing kids or campers or humans at
(00:03):
large to Jesus, but we're notsaying and now you have to
believe this certain thing. Youhave to be this certain thing.
You have to act the certainthing. You have to wear this
certain thing. We are justsimply saying you are in because
you are human, and as a human,you are loved, and you are
embraced by Jesus, and that'swhat matters.
Joshua Johnson (00:34):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost, Joshua Johnson, today I'm
joined by Kara Meredith, authorof the new book church camp.
We're digging into the ways campshapes our faith, our
friendships and our sense of whobelongs. We get real about the
(00:57):
fun memories, but also theuncomfortable parts, who was
included, who was left out, andwhat messages we picked up along
the way. Kara and I talk abouthow camp can turn faith into a
checklist, who's in, who's out,who fits, who doesn't, but we
also imagine what camp could beif it became a place of real
belonging, where every kid wasseen and valued, no matter their
(01:19):
story. Kara and I both come tothis conversation as campers and
as counselors. Kara was aspeaker at church camp for many
years. I was a coach atbasketball camp for many years.
And for you, if you've everlooked back on your camp
experience with mixed feelingsor wondered how those weeks
(01:41):
shaped your view of God andyourself. You'll find something
here. This episode is aboutholding the good and the hard
together, asking betterquestions and dreaming about
what's possible. So join us aswe go to camp. Here is my
conversation with Kara Meredith.
Kara, welcome to shiftingculture. Excited to have you on
excited to talk about camptoday.
Cara Meredith (02:05):
Thank you.
Excited to be here. Joshua,well, let's
Joshua Johnson (02:08):
get into church camp your new book, which is
great that you dive deep into,really, I would say, white
evangelicalism and church camp,and how those coincide, and what
was the good, the bad and theugly in all of it? What, then,
is your relationship with camp?
And why is camp something thatactually can help you? Unfold by
(02:31):
evangelicalism? And what it is,
Cara Meredith (02:38):
I was big in camp, so I started going to camp
my first summer. I was nineyears old. It was 1988 I'll let
listeners do the math on that.
And then probably eight yearslater, I started volunteering at
camp. Two years later, so 1998 Iworked my first full summer at
camp, what the camp world mightcall a seasonal staff employee.
And then after that, that waswhen I was in college. After
(03:00):
college, I became a high schoolEnglish teacher, and so I had my
summers free, and instead ofthen working at camp all summer,
I was camp speaker. So the campsthat I worked in were most which
were both denominationally andnon denominationally affiliated.
They were pro women. They wereokay with women standing on the
stage preaching or talking. Sothat was really where my camp
(03:23):
experience took me. So camp, tome, was something that happened,
if you count those camper years,really for the better part of 25
years of my life, leading up toabout a decade ago, was when I
finally left as
Joshua Johnson (03:39):
somebody that's been involved in church camp for
a long time. Why is campsomething that you said, Hey, we
want to look at camp, but reallylook under the hood of white
evangelicalism. And why is campa really good feature and focus
for us to look at?
Cara Meredith (03:55):
I am a writer. I write different things, but one
of the things I do is I writebooks. And so my first book came
out in 2019 and then we had thisthing that happened around the
world called the pandemic.
Really, I missed that. Not sureif you knew there was this thing
called the global pandemic,COVID 19. So COVID happens, the
pandemic happens. And my writingstalled, not only because life
(04:18):
was really hard, but I thinkalso because there was a bigger
message for me, and it was amessage of the both. And so from
that, I had another book that Iput together. It was a
collection of essays that paireddifferent words, different
opposite words together, andlooked at how both could be true
at the same time. So got throughthe pandemic, I created this
(04:41):
book, this book of essays. Myagent takes it to sell to
publishers, and publishers saythanks, but no thanks. We need a
through line. We don't wantindividual essays. We want to
hear we want you to go deep withone story. So I say that
because, as I thought back. Workon life and on my own
experience. That's where, when Ilooked at and thought about
(05:04):
camp, I thought, wow, Camp isone of the most formative places
for me. I am who I am todaybecause of camp, so many of my
best friends are from this exactplace. And as I've gotten older,
I don't like the worddeconstruction in general, but
as I've gotten older, I thinkthere has been a spiritual
(05:25):
evolution of sorts, a changethat has happened, and that's
when, as I looked back on camp,I also saw that there were some
unhelpful parts, some harmfulparts, that I deemed helpful for
a long, long time. But as lifewent on, I began to see those
through a different lens. Soreally, the book birthed from
paradox and from holding thetension. So
Joshua Johnson (05:48):
I want to go into the tension, and before we
dive into some particulars ofcamp and what that was like as
you were writing these essays,and you were thinking about both
and and spiritual life and a ourdaily lives, our political
lives, just every part of ourlives. It seems to me, and I've
heard a statistic that there isa small percentage of the
(06:10):
population that could actuallyhold a both hands. They really
just think through either ortype of things. It's all black
and white. Gray is verydifficult for a lot of people,
how do we walk into tension whenwe know that there is bad and
there is good? And we could holdboth at the same time and
actually take what is, what isgood in the middle of it, and
(06:30):
then actually say, hey, this mayhave harmed you, and I'm sorry.
And like, really wrestle withthose things. What is like
walking into the tension? Looklike no
Cara Meredith (06:41):
one has asked me that question before. Joshua,
this is good. I think walkinginto the tension means holding
an openness, holding or havingan openness. It means embracing
when we have been right and whenwe have been wrong. And again, I
think this is to me, this ispart of the gray, which is part
of the mystery, but which isalso part of God. I now call the
(07:05):
Episcopal tradition home. I saythat because my very last class
in seminary, this was 15 yearsago, but it was a class on
Anglican theology, and I becamea convert after that. I mean, I
just was like, but it was, thereality is that I fell in love
with a theology, and thatthere's a deep theology within
(07:26):
the Episcopal or Anglicantradition that embraces the
mystery, which to me, isembracing the both end and so
even though there were so manypeople, I interviewed a wide
variety, almost 50 people forthis book, there were folks who
absolutely wanted to just throwcamp under the bus. They were
like, burn it all up. And thenthere were folks who were like,
(07:47):
there is absolutely nothingwrong with camp. Kids meet Jesus
here. This is one of the mostincredible parts. And I think
there are, there are, or were,or there are folks. There are
those of us in the middle whosay, Yes, we can hold both. And
for me, I acknowledge the goodand I acknowledge the bad that I
(08:07):
participated in, that Iperpetuated. So I think there's
a willingness to be able to holdor see both. I'm not sure how to
how to answer that, but I thinkthat's where I start. That's
Joshua Johnson (08:19):
a good starting place. And so let's dive into
some of that, the good and thebad, the tension of camp. My my
camp experience, I would say wewere on the periphery of of
Christian camp. I went to abasketball camp every summer,
and we, you know, it was aChristian camp, but we really
didn't talk much about Jesusuntil the final night. And we
(08:41):
talked a little bit about Jesus,right? Of course, it's the final
night. You got to talk aboutJesus. But we it was really
value space, but it was reallytransformative for me. And I
then continued as as acounselor, coach, teacher in the
in those camps for many yearsand and I've had, like, some of
my most formative experienceswere in camp, but I didn't have,
(09:05):
like, this particular churchcamp experience that you were
talking about in the book. Sotake me into what you have seen
as a, I would say, a typicalwhite evangelical church camp.
And where did it come from?
What's the history of it, andwhat was like the the formation
of these camps, and what was thethe ultimate goal?
Cara Meredith (09:29):
Well, I write quite a bit about this,
especially in the very firstchapter, as you may well know.
But if we can, if we can put itplainly, the point of campus
conversion, the point of campusto convert, and it is to convert
Yes, to a particular way ofthinking, as far as a viewpoint
of who Jesus is and of who Godis through an evangelical lens.
(09:52):
But it also is to convert tonorms found within white
evangelicalism. That's where.
Can also it can be hard todefine, because white
evangelicals are not are notjust defined by what they
believe, but they're oftendefined also by their voting
habits, by their culturalpreferences, by a whole litany
of things. Now
Joshua Johnson (10:13):
we have, we have studies that say Muslims are
identifying as evangelicals andbecause of their political
stances. So it's justinteresting that way. So it's
true. Keep going, yeah,
Cara Meredith (10:25):
yeah. I mean, you look at the 81% like the reality
is that it's not just aboutvoting a particular person into
power. It's also about thevalues that are embodied within
this belief system. So for me,the book is deeply theological,
even if we're unpacking a wholelot of things along the way. But
(10:46):
the book is laid out by theseven main talks that I gave as
a camp speaker over the years,and that was at a number of
different types of camps, fromyoung life camps to again,
denominational and nondenomination non denominational
camps. And I think all of thoseplaces, in all of those places,
it goes back to, really, it goesback, you're looking at
(11:10):
conversion, but it also goesback to particular message that
is going to get a person, orpersons, from point A to point
B. And so if the point isconversion, then how do we get
there? Along the way, we can,then we can then say, well, we
get there by presenting the fourspiritual laws. Bill Wright
Campus Crusade for Christ 1956he comes up with the four
(11:31):
spiritual laws, which, whichresults in literally billions of
people around the worldconverting to a particular brand
or type of Christianity, andthat that's where, you know, I
always used to laugh at it, butthat's where you have the two
cliffs. If listeners could seeme now, I'm putting up my two
fingers, and you have, you haveman on one cliff, it was never a
woman, and you have God on theother cliff, and and God loves
(11:55):
you so much and wants to, wantsto be connected to you, but God
cannot be connected to you, orhe cannot be connected to you.
It was always also a male god,because sin separates you, and
that's when Jesus comes in onthe cross. And so in the camp
context, there was oftentimes amessage that was presented over
the week that was a truncatedversion of the four spiritual
(12:17):
laws that oftentimes erredheavily on the side of penal
substitutionary atonementtheory, which was one particular
way of viewing God, but it wasalso a particular way of viewing
self that I argue was actuallyreally harmful. And through
that, I mean, there are so manyother parts of camp, from a
speaker's position and reallyfrom, from and through and with
(12:39):
a lot of different camps. Thisis, if conversion is the end
goal, then this is how you getconverts. Is by preaching this
message,
Joshua Johnson (12:48):
so all the fun and all the games and
everything, and it leads intonightly talks, leading people
into this conversion experience.
If you look back with a lot oftalks that lead to conversion
experiences, one time,conversion experiences a lot of
times, don't lead to long,lasting authentic faith.
Sometimes it's it is like, Hey,I had this mountaintop moment.
(13:11):
And then they're thinking, Man,I don't know how this reaches my
my everyday life. So it's notreally there for me,
discipleship, mystery, all thosethings need to happen so that we
actually see God with us in ourlife. And what that what that
looks like. So if part of thatis like this mountaintop
(13:32):
experience, is there a differentway that you think that camp may
may be structured that could behelpful to people to wrestle
with things throughout theirentire life, and not just have a
mountaintop experience and butmountaintop experiences can be
good too. So this, how do youwrestle with it in the middle of
(13:54):
it, knowing that, hey, we onlyhave a week with these kids, but
then, like, follow up and stufftoo, like all of that stuff is,
is in the mind of people lookinglike, what's next? How do we do
this? Is there a way to toshift? I
Cara Meredith (14:11):
am a huge outdoor person. Outdoors person. I'm not
sure if we put an S on that, butpart of why I am an outdoors
person is because that is whereGod meets me. And I know whether
I step into the backyard, intomy garden and I'm just out
there, or whether I go on ahike, or whether I take my kids
(14:31):
camping, or whatever it is. Iknow that I if I am out in the
outdoors, then I am, I'm goingto come into a space in which
the sacred and the holy isthere, and I'm going to be
confronted by God. And so Ithink where, I think part of the
tension that has happened with alot of our camps, which is not
(14:53):
true of every camp, but in a lotof our camps, I think because,
because it's. What we think kidsneed, kids or campers, or
whomever is there camps become,can so easily become
programmatic spaces that aretrying to entertain, that are
trying to just be big and campy,for lack of a better word or
phrase, they're trying to be,you know, the most explosive and
(15:16):
the funniest and and the andthat also then goes down into
how God is presented, just inbeing or trying to be. The
biggest of all, it's almost asif we forget that that God is
already in that space, and thatthere need not be this
convincing that needs to happen.
So I think for me, an answer toyour question. I think I do want
(15:36):
to say there are, I think thereare so many camps that are doing
it right? I think camp is a giftin and of itself. So many places
don't allow cell phones, youknow, so and our kids are all
getting cell phones younger andyounger. So it's, it's one of
those that cell phones arebanned for the week. But if
there can simply be aninvitation to to to bask in the
beauty that is in front of you,I think that's one of the things
(16:00):
but, but that's one of thethings that camp allows. It
allows time and space to just beand to then not have to fill the
gap with with with convincing,with trying to convince another
of what they need.
Joshua Johnson (16:15):
That's good, and that's helpful. I start, and I I
agree with it. I think it's, Ithink it's a start. I mean, I'm
just saying, how do we how do wedo that? How do you shift a
whole mindset, saying that it'smy job to entertain, and it's my
job to if I was the MC at nightthere, my job was to be the
(16:35):
clown like it was. That was partof it, right? So my job is to
entertain, to do skits, to do dothings, to make sure that these
kids can be engaged andentertain. So what is, then, the
tension between engaging andentertaining and in a space of
like holding holding space toencounter the divine in in a
(16:58):
real sense, in a real thing, andit's not just a show, but it's,
it's the real thing. What?
What's the balance when you'reyou do have those tensions?
Cara Meredith (17:10):
No, I think that's a great question. And
perhaps you and I can meetcollaboratively afterwards to
come up with with a list of whatcan be done. But I think it's, I
think our culture, and I lovethat your podcast is called
shifting culture. I think thereis a belief in within our
culture, and whether that's justfor parents and teachers and
(17:30):
caregivers or for the entireculture, but for our this
generation of our children, thatthey have to be constantly
entertained. And there's,there's a different word for
that. But so, for instance, oneof my children, he's 10. One of
my boys just broke his leg twoweeks ago while we were camping
over spring break. Not exactlythe best thing. Yeah, thank you.
(17:51):
It was our family's first break.
It was a very big deal. He has abig red pass. Now I got to sign
mom with a heart around it. Ifelt very glad, very happy that
he let me do that. But for Theo,my son, there's not a whole lot
he can do right now, besidesjust lay on the couch. It's
really easy for me as a parentto simply let him be on a screen
the entire time, because whatelse I feel kind of bad. What
(18:15):
else is he supposed to do? Hecan't throw the football, he
can't play baseball on his team.
He can't, he can't do anything,but I can let him not be on a
screen the whole time, and I canlet him figure out what he can
do when he is not beingconstantly entertained. And so
it, it can almost hurt. Italmost hurts him for me to take
(18:35):
away the iPad, and then he'slike, oh, wait a minute. I can
play my trumpet and make up newsongs, which are horrible, by
the way, but I support itbecause he's just, he's just
blowing air into this gold I'm
Joshua Johnson (18:48):
glad you support it. My parents wouldn't let me
practice the trumpet. I gotkicked out of fourth grade band
because I did not practice. Andnow I don't know how to play an
instrument, you know. So Joshua,good job. Way to support it.
Send
Cara Meredith (18:59):
you ours at the end of the school year, and you
can learn because I don't wantto hear it anymore. Thank you.
But I mean there, just as thereare, you know, just as there is
this undergirding belief that weneed to entertain our children,
our children being all of ourchildren, what would it look
like in a camp setting to do thesame, to just let kids figure
(19:20):
that out, and to figure out thetrumpet that's lying right there
beside them, and to just, youknow, like, again, I take my
boys camping and I see whathappens when we get into the
woods. I mean, granted, brokenlegs happen, but also they don't
get screens when they're there.
And pretty soon, they're makingnew best friends to campsites
over or they're riding theirbike until, you know, nine
(19:42):
o'clock, until it gets dark.
They're, they're burning theirmarshmallows as black as they
can. You know, I mean, they're,they're figuring out fun because
they're being given anopportunity to simply enter in
and embrace we
Joshua Johnson (19:56):
need to create spaces where kids are bored. I.
Cara Meredith (20:01):
Be bored exactly, because then good things are
going to happen from it. Yes,that's
Joshua Johnson (20:06):
good. So when you were looking back and you
were saying, okay, maybe all ofthis good stuff that I thought
was was really good, hey, maybethere was some stuff that was
was malforming me. It wasn'tforming me in a way that
actually is was helpful. What?
What were the threads? What werethe things that you started to
pick at that really started itlike this? Oh, maybe that was
(20:27):
the malforming thing. Therewere,
Cara Meredith (20:31):
there were a number of malformations, if we,
if that's a word, I think forme, it started with people. I
began to look around and see whowas not there. Within
Christianity, there's a, youknow, we oftentimes use the
phrase of who's sitting at thetable or who is welcome at the
table. And so for me, I began tosee that. I began to see the
(20:53):
exclusion that was taking place,in particular toward women,
toward people of color, andtoward the queer community. I
began to see that in the threadsof of people that I loved, the
two people that are that thisbook is dedicated to, were both
people that were their names areMichael and Sarah, and they are
two dear, dear people to me, oneof whom is a person of color,
(21:16):
the other person, the other ofwhom is white, they both came
out later in life, and thereality is that for both of
them, the camps that they workedat kicked them out because they
were not straight. And so thatwas where a lot of this started
for me, there was also a deeptheological starting place that
I really just began to wrestlewith, both the message I had
(21:39):
always believed, but also themessage I was communicating
about who God was and about whowe as humans were. And I do not
think that we need to be made tofeel like horrible human beings.
One of my chapters that's onthis is titled dirty, rotten
little sinners. And I just don'tbelieve that that is who God
(22:00):
sees us as so if we're talkingabout human depravity, I think
there are other ways that we canlook at God and about how God
looks at us that doesn't makepeople feel like pieces of poo.
So I think I'm not sure how, howmuch your listeners want me to
cuss on air, but yeah, so Ithink the starting point, okay,
(22:24):
who is the word we're gonna use?
Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (22:27):
makes me it makes me laugh. Now, if we're in
these spaces, whiteevangelicalism, we've made God a
little bit into our own image,made Jesus into our own image,
instead of being in the maid, inthe image of God, where we're
transposing it, what wereaspects that you've seen that
(22:49):
go, oh, that actually doesn'tactually look like Jesus, God,
that looks more like whiteWesterners?
Cara Meredith (22:57):
Well, I think I saw this most, heard this most
with the people of color that Iinterviewed, and as I note in
the book, the easiest, theeasiest people to find to
interview were white, straightmales. The second easiest were
white, straight females, andthen poor identifying people.
(23:18):
And finally, people of color.
And to me, that also shows theharm that happened. So in that
way, I think a lot of theconformity happened the a lot of
the conformity that whiteevangelicalism invites folks
into is a conformity that looksand believes a certain way. It's
a conformity of assimilation.
(23:39):
There was one young black manthat I interviewed, and he had I
found him and invited him to doan interview after after reading
something that he had writtenonline, but of the cultural and
theological assimilations thathe was invited into, this is
what he writes. I'm just goingto read a short paragraph. I
lament the idea I needed to buyChocos use multi color
(24:01):
highlighters from my Bible andlisten to white Christian music
to feel like I was a part ofwhat God was doing. As a black
kid, I felt forced to sacrificethe parts of my blackness I
loved and the parts I didn'teven know existed to have a seat
at a table which was built onwhite normativity. I do not like
comfort colors T shirts, butthat's what I wore because young
(24:22):
life told me that's what Ishould like. My blackness was
once used as the punch line ofthe skit because my area
director said there would benothing funnier than a large,
angry black man come only comingin and tackle, tackling someone.
So I think that within this,yeah, there. I think that the
conformity and the assimilationis real. And, yeah, and I think
(24:46):
it's something we need tolament.
Joshua Johnson (24:47):
I remember a few, I think it was few years
ago. I was teaching in Brazil,and I was teaching on on
something, and found inEphesians and and I remember
afterwards, this, this. Pastorcame up to me and says, I've How
come I've never heard this like,this is the first time we've
we've heard these things. And Iactually had to apologize. It's
(25:09):
like, I apologize for my whiteevangelical brothers that have
transported something thatwasn't actually in Scripture,
but it was just culturally partof what they knew. This is the
thing that I think we have to dosome work to be more self aware
(25:29):
in our own awareness. Becauseoftentimes, I think that at camp
counselors and people at Camppastors, people, they don't know
what they don't know. And Ithink most of them are really
trying their best, and they'rejust regurgitating information
that they have heard. What isWhat do you think that work
(25:51):
looks like for people to say?
Maybe I don't have everythingfigured out. Maybe as
everything's not as certain as Ithought it was, what can I start
to do to help me, like, lift theblinders off?
Cara Meredith (26:07):
That's a big question, and that also might be
one that you and I need to meetafter this podcast episode to
come up with a huge list. Idon't know if there is a way in
which this can be forced. Ithink so much of this is time
for me, for instance, myexperience of marrying my
husband, who identifies asBlack, who is the son of a civil
rights icon that was really biginvitation into wrestling with
(26:34):
and identifying my whiteness andprivilege. And so for me, 1516,
years ago, when we met. I needto figure out when we met and
married, and do the math at somepoint. But for me, that was,
that was really the start of myown journey into issues of
racial justice, but also, again,owning my own privilege and my
(26:56):
whiteness in the same way whenit comes to and that would be,
that would be, I should add ajourney that I am still on, that
I will always be on, becausemine is a learned experience and
not a lived experience. In thesame way when it comes to our
spirituality, when it comes toour belief systems, to
Christianity, I don't know if wenest, if there necessarily needs
(27:18):
to be, if there has to be acatalyst for that. Maybe the
catalyst is just like a, youknow, an inkling inside. And
maybe then it's a matter of,okay, I'm gonna start reading
books that challenge me. Iremember when I was in seminary,
we had all of our main books,and the reality is that those,
those main books were all, forthe most part were written by
(27:41):
white men, and then we sometimeshad alternative titles, and
those would be the titles thatwere written by people of color
or by women. So so maybe it's amatter of looking at our
bookshelves and I'm saying,Okay, who do I need to be
learning from that is not ishere that literally, they're not
on my bookshelf, so we startreading and listening and
(28:03):
learning to others. I think forme, there was a big unpacking
that happened theologically andand this was one of those. I
again, I don't like the worddeconstruction, but I think it
was my own deconstructionprocess, or at least how culture
might define a deconstructionprocess in which it just things
(28:25):
just weren't sitting right withme anymore. And so for me, I
process through writing. That'sthat's how I process sometimes I
process verbally, but I processthrough writing. So I began to
write through these things andto question and just to, just to
go, to let it be a question too,because I think the world I was
in for so long, you didn'tquestion things because it was
(28:46):
so black and white. You eitherbelieved and when you believed
you were in, or you didn'tbelieve, and when you didn't
believe you were out. So so whatdid it mean to still be a part
of that, but to also let myselfquestion and wrestle with that,
that didn't sit right within me.
Joshua Johnson (29:02):
I think one of the things there, I mean, a lot
of people have been talkingthrough bounded sets and
centered sets, centered setwhere Jesus is the center. And
no matter where you are, ifyou're facing towards Jesus,
that's fantastic. You could bereally close to Jesus, like
facing away from him, and you'renot even even going towards them
at all. You're going the otherdirection. But it looks like
(29:26):
camp there is like, Hey, here'sthe here's the bounded set.
Here's the line on, you know, oncry night, we're gonna get you
in to this, this bounded set.
Now you could be a part of thefamily of God, and now you're
in. How has that beenperpetrated and thought about in
camp? If you look back on whatit is of here's a line, and the
(29:49):
people, some people are in, somepeople are out, and we treat
people differently, whetherthey're in or out. I
Cara Meredith (29:58):
define this at least in the book. Like whether
or not it makes sense to otherpeople, but I define it as a
caveat of belonging, whereoftentimes there's a message of
Jesus. The message of Jesus isproclaimed and is taught from
the front and in the reality isthat is that Jesus is the most
beautiful part of the Christianfaith, like Jesus is why we call
(30:20):
ourselves Christians becauseJesus died and rose again, and
we have life after life afterdeath, like N T Wright would
say. But I think within a campsetting, there is oftentimes a
bounded set of Christianity thatis presented, but it's presented
through the lens of Christ andof who Jesus was. So what does
it mean instead to invite, likeyou're saying, to invite people
(30:44):
into a belief system about whoJesus is that is unbounded, one
of the one of the things I alsothat I write, I say, when Christ
is the well, everyone is in andno one is out, artificial
boundaries, sometimes disguisedas caveats of belonging are
thrown out the window, or forpurposes of Camp speak off the
second platform on the highropes course, you know the one
(31:06):
right before that unwielding setof unstable bridges. This time
when a camp speaker introducescampers to a man who is the
biggest gift of all to thetender pioneer whose generous,
wild inclusion paved a way forthe rest of us to be equally
generous and wild in the love weshow other people. They actually
mean it. So we're introducingkids or campers or humans at
(31:28):
large to Jesus, but we're notsaying and now you have to
believe this certain thing. Youhave to be this certain thing.
You have to act this certainthing. You have to wear this
certain thing. We are justsimply saying you are in because
you are human, and as a human,you are loved, and you are
embraced by Jesus. And that'swhat matters.
Joshua Johnson (31:46):
That's beautiful. And I think that
means it's then, hey, I'm inthis beautiful well, and now
it's a process of life, like, Iget to, like, go on this
journey. And, you know, ourChristian life is, is really a
pilgrimage to God. And soinstead of, I think what we have
done, especially at Campus, ifthe goal is conversion, the goal
(32:10):
is like, one decision, you'rein, you're done, right? You get
your get out of hell, free card,and you're you're set. Then just
do whatever you want the rest ofyour life. You're You're good,
but we got you
Cara Meredith (32:24):
Yeah, or you're good, until next summer, when
you do it again and you recommityour life to Jesus for the 37th
time. Yeah, yeah.
Joshua Johnson (32:30):
Which happens over and over again at camp,
right? What then is, is a campfor pilgrims. What is, what's
the camp that looks, looks alittle different. What you're
calling people to right there,and what you just read, what is
a camp like that? It is
Cara Meredith (32:46):
a great question.
There are several places in thebook that I highlight camps that
are proclaiming a differentmessage, that are valuing a
different thing. I think again,about my own family, I identify
as white. My husband identifiesas black. Our two boys identify
as mixed race, some days andsome days, they identify as
(33:07):
black. I don't know if they willever identify as white, not only
because of the color of theirskin, but also as and because of
how society identifies them, butfor them, when I think about the
conversations we have around thedinner table, it is a
conversation that is wild andcrazy. I'm always a little
scared when someone comes in,because you never know what's
(33:30):
going to come out of theirmouth, out of their mouths. But
it is a conversation that is acompass that can be encompassed
by their spiritual identities,by their racial identities, by
who they are, intellectually andemotionally, by and physically,
by all the different parts andfacets of who they are and what
makes them them. And so how,then, in leading to your to the
(33:54):
an answer to your question, howdo we encompass and honor and
celebrate all the many parts ofwho we are. Part of why I have a
hard time thinking about sendingmy own kids to the camps that I
spent so many years at isbecause I don't know if they are
going to be honored for for whothey are and celebrated for who
(34:17):
they are, if they are going towalk away feeling like the only
way that they can be loved. Andthis is, this is an answer of
both spiritual and racialcomplications, if they are only
going to feel loved if theybelieve in a certain if they
believe a certain message andlook a certain way, then then
that is, I have done adisservice to them. The camp has
(34:39):
done a disservice to them. Sopractically speaking, I think
there are a ton of camps thatare doing it right, that are
honoring kids and campers inthose ways. This is not a
Christian camp, but there is.
There's a camp I found along theway. It's a Jewish camp for kids
of color, and it takes placeevery summer in Marin County,
which is no. San Francisco, herein the Bay Area, but they bring
(35:03):
in Jewish kids, some of whom arespiritual and andor religious,
some of whom are not, becauseJudaism can oftentimes be
encompassed by both. But theybring in these kids, and they
they celebrate both theirreligious and cultural
identities as young Jewishchildren, and they celebrate
their identities as children ofcolor, and they merge the two of
(35:26):
them together. So this camp haswhich Jewish camping is a whole,
whole other conversation,because it is a thing for our
Jewish brothers and sisters, butthey are doing something
different, and the kids who aregoing there are having life
changing experiences. So I thinkthat's part of how we start, is
by honoring the wholeness of whoperson is.
Joshua Johnson (35:47):
I think that's such a great starting point,
like we could, we could seepeople for who they are, and not
think of a program. And I thinkthat's just in every aspect of
our lives, is so easy to thinkprogram and programmatically in
everything that we do, and it'sso much more difficult to see
(36:10):
people for who they are and tryto meet people where they're at.
It's just more difficult, likepractically speaking, it's
harder to do that. So I commendpeople for doing that, and it's
a good hard work that they'redoing. As you started to
interview all these 50 people,did you see any any common
(36:31):
themes as you were interviewingpeople, of things that came out
of their answers? I
Cara Meredith (36:37):
would say the two questions that probably got the
biggest response. There was aquestion, and I openly write
about this in the book, but Isay true or false, and I
recognize also, I'd say this isprobably a leading question, but
true or false camp was made forwhite, straight, rich kids.
There was an outstanding numberof people who absolutely agreed
(37:00):
with that and and the reality isthat I think that is seen not
only in the cost of camp and whohas been showing up. It's seen
in then in the racialdisparities that take place,
both within staff, but also ofcampers. And it's seen certainly
in the in who is there and whois not there. And so camps
(37:20):
because of their because oftheir standing as nonprofit
organizations are allowed todiscriminate also against kids
with different sexual or genderidentities. I think the other
piece though, one of thequestions I asked, I said, What
was the theology communicated orthat you perceived at camp? And
this was where, and I did. Itried to interview a whole bunch
(37:42):
of folks, both people who werefrom, people who were still in
the camping world, who said, MyGod, this is the best thing that
has ever happened to the world,all the way to those who were
like, burn the place down. Andthrew in a couple of expletives
along the way. But when it cameto the theology, this was also
one of those that there was anoverwhelming response. Here are
(38:06):
just a few of them. Jesus savedyou from an angry God. You were
saved from going to hell.
Another one, you're dirty, butdon't worry, God loves you so
much that he killed his onlyson. A third one, Jesus loves
me, but his dad thinks I'm apiece of poo. There's another
word written in the book, butI'm not sure if your listeners
are listening to this whiledriving in the car with small
(38:29):
humans and another one, I'm awretched sinner, and I don't
exist, and I cannot existwithout God. And I think about
those statements, and there'smore that are listed in the
book, but I think about thoseand about what that communicates
about who God is, but also whatthat communicates about who
humans are. And to me, it's nowonder that wide swaths of those
(38:53):
who previously identified asChristians are deconstructing by
the day and are, are are notfinding God within themselves or
within their belief systems.
They're not. There's not athere's fit. No longer exists
between the two.
Joshua Johnson (39:11):
If you talk to these, some of these people that
are then deconstructing, if youdon't like to use the word,
although the word has been useda lot in this conversation. We
can use the word, but if we wetalk through like, then what it
what actually holds people like,if you have have talked to
(39:34):
people, or talk to people andgo, Man, this church camp
experience wasn't great. Youknow, I want to burn it all
down, or my faith, there wasn'tmuch to it. I don't find God in
here. Is there anything that isthat is holding people in the in
the midst of a place where theydo feel unmoored and they feel
(39:56):
like, Hey, I don't know what'swhat's up anymore. I don't know
what. Right and wrong. I don'tknow what's up and down. I just
like, what is it? Is thereanything holding people? And is
there, like, a common theme thatyou've seen in the midst of
people wrestling with thesethings that they're being held
with? That's
Cara Meredith (40:15):
a good question, to which I say, to all of your
questions, you're a very goodquestion. Asker Joshua, just
like to point that out. I thinkI have a hard time answering
this, because I think it isdifferent for everyone. I think
the pandemic did a number on ourchurches and on our belief
systems and and maybe that'sjust something that I'm seeing
(40:37):
on the west coast, but I don'tthink that we are the same
people, not just the pandemic,but also the racial reckoning
that's happening in our countryalso, you know, I mean just all
these different movements thathave been happening over the
last 20 years. TheologianPhyllis tickle, she, she had a,
she has a book, I think it's,it's a 2008 so it's almost 20
years old now. But her book TheGreat emergence, which is, which
(40:59):
is about the the fact that every400 years, starting with Christ,
every 400 years, there is thisreckoning, there is this there
is this laundry basket beingturned upside down and over with
with that which was the face ofChristianity that is then dumped
out and made anew. And shewrites or wrote them, we are in
that season right now, which shecalls the great emergence in
(41:21):
which everything is being flipturned upside down. So is there
something that is holding thesepeople? I think for those who,
who who continue to find solacein or with God and or with the
church, I think there issometimes solace in other faiths
or forms of spirituality thatare more open to their belief
(41:42):
systems. So for instance there,I think a lot of folks are
finding home in a lot of folkswho maybe were in that
previously are finding a home inpost evangelical environments or
in Protestant environments. Iknow for me, I found a home in
the Episcopal Church, which iswildly different in some
aspects, from what I grew upwith and from this world that I
was encompassed within, and alsoit's the same, I think for a lot
(42:06):
of people, though there, aspeople deconvert And are leaving
Christianity by the by the 1000severy single day, they don't
necessarily step into newenvironments. And so I don't
know what's holding them, but Ido think they are forever
searching and looking, andthat's and so what does it mean
to notice that and to hopefullycreate spaces where people can
(42:28):
still
Joshua Johnson (42:29):
okay? Kara, I want to end in the camp
conversation with something,some camp experience that was
really life giving for you. Itcould be as as a camper or as a
counselor. What was really lifegiving
Cara Meredith (42:46):
again, Joshua and his questions, the image that
comes to my mind. So for twosummers, the two summers after
my freshman and sophomore yearof college, I went and worked at
this camp, and I was a ropescourse instructor. And we would,
we would, we would, there was ateam probably of five or six of
us, and we would go from thedifferent all these different
elements. There was the ropescourse itself, you, but you
(43:09):
could also be the the lowelements instructor and the
climbing the climbing wallinstructor and the zip line
instructor. So you would justrotate every single week to
these different places. And whenwe were on the high ropes.
Course we would we would don ourour harness. We would have our
harness along with a big, longrope and our carabiners that
(43:30):
were attaching us. And we alwayshad to have someone up in the
trees who would just be danglingfrom the trees to help kids
campers when they came through,because there would always be
that scary person, or therewould always be that person who
was really scared. So for me, Ithink there's that image of of
(43:50):
kind of being held and ofdangling, but also of helping
others, and of the confidencethat came from that I wasn't
necessarily super scared to goup there. I thought it was
pretty fun to just hang anddangle from the ropes at the
top, but you there had to be anelement of trust. And so I think
for me, just the confidence,also that camp instilled, but
(44:13):
the desire to help and and thenbeing just being acknowledged
and being celebrated for exactlywho I was in that moment, but
also just overall, I think thatwas something that camp gave me
that I'm just so grateful for.
Joshua Johnson (44:29):
That's beautiful. It's a beautiful
image. I love the picture ofthat and what that means, and
that says about community andwho we are and with one another,
and especially in this, thisworld of America, when it's
hyper individualism and it's allabout me, I think that that's a
beautiful picture that you justpresented. Kara, I have a couple
(44:51):
of questions. We're one. Whathope do you have for church
camp, that for your readers,people would pick it up and
read? What do you hope that theywould get from this?
Cara Meredith (45:00):
Yes, I hope that they laugh. I hope that they
feel deeply. I hope that theywrestle with the mystery, and I
hope that they walk away longingfor something better and
realizing that something betteris possible.
Joshua Johnson (45:17):
If you could go back to your 21 year old self,
what advice
Cara Meredith (45:21):
would you give?
Ask? More questions. Yeah, good
Joshua Johnson (45:26):
advice. Very good advice. There
Cara Meredith (45:28):
you go. I feel like these are rapid fire, so I
don't need to, I don't need toadd anything. But no, that's
fantastic with that. Yeah, fitwith the implications of that.
Joshua Johnson (45:38):
All right, anything you've been reading or
watching lately you couldrecommend?
Cara Meredith (45:41):
Well, my husband and I are very, very behind, but
we have been reading or we'vebeen watching, excuse me,
bridgerton. We took like a, likea year pause, but we we've been
picking it up just even thislast week, and we're like, oh,
this is so good. I just readthis book. It's very big and
(46:02):
fat. It's titled, here I am byJonathan Safran Foer. He's the
one that wrote Extremely Loudand Incredibly Close. This one,
I feel like this one, all of thelike funky theology nerds who
are drawn to, for those of uswithin the Christian within
Christian spaces, who are drawnto the Old Testament and the
(46:24):
Jewish tradition are going tofind resonance with this book,
which, which honestly follows,follows part of the story of
Abraham. So, but it's completelyfictional, set in New York City,
modern day. So, yeah, I justread that. I don't know if I
would say that I loved it, but Idid finish it. I was intrigued.
So
Joshua Johnson (46:45):
Congratulations on finishing here I am. That's a
that's a feat. It's always nicewhen he when he finished a
novel, it
Cara Meredith (46:53):
was a lot of pages. I stopped at like, 200 I
was like, this is a commitmentfrom the free little library.
Big one, it's good.
Joshua Johnson (47:03):
How can people go out and get church camp? And
where would you like to pointpeople to? How could they
connect with you? Yes,
Cara Meredith (47:10):
church camp is available, or will be available
on April 29 wherever books aresold, I would encourage you to
go into your local bookstore andorder it, just because I always
love supporting local,independent places, but you can
also find it online, whereveryou like to buy books. You can
connect with me. I'm onsubstack.
Carameridath.substack.comotherwise I'm on most of the
(47:34):
internet spaces, and in thoseplaces I am. Kara Meredith
writes in most of those places,
Joshua Johnson (47:42):
perfect. Well.
Kara, thank you for thisconversation. I really enjoyed
talking to you. I really enjoyedgetting into camp experience
what it was like, the good, badand the ugly of it, and how
maybe we could reimaginesomething different. Thank you
for actually accepting some ofthese, like heavy, deep, hard,
practical questions that I threwat you because they were, I
(48:05):
think they're good, somethingthat we should wrestle with. I
really think that as we're we'rethinking about how, how we
entertain, how we try to makeGod in our own image, how we
have made people who are in orpeople who are out, we want to
make sure that people look likeus. All of those, those issues I
(48:27):
think, are really good to dealwith that we have to start to
uncover what is behind those andreally get to the what, what
Richard Rohr says, the reallyreal underneath everything. And
when we do that, I think, hey,this world can be beautiful and
camp can be beautiful. So thankyou for wrestling with those
(48:48):
things with me, and thank youfor this conversation. It was
fantastic. Thanks. Joshua, you
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