May 27, 2025 • 54 mins
For a lot of people, Revelation is the Bible’s great mystery—full of wild images and swirling predictions, often left to collect dust or to stir up arguments about the end times. But beneath all the confusion, Revelation also speaks to something deeply human: our ache for intimacy, our struggle with loneliness, and our longing to know that God is closer than we think. Today I’m joined by Dr. Shane J. Wood - professor, theologian, and author of Thinning the Veil. Shane has spent decades steeped in Revelation, not as a codebook for the future, but as a guide for living with honesty and presence right now. His approach is all about transformation: what does it mean to let the way of Jesus reshape our identity, our relationships, and the way we move through a world that often feels disconnected? In this conversation, we dive into how loneliness touches us all, how the presence of God can feel just out of reach, and how the message of Revelation invites us to draw near—to God and to one another. We talk about the cycles of power and fear that keep us apart, and how worship and vulnerability can open the door to real, embodied intimacy. If you’ve ever wondered where God is in the middle of your isolation, or if faith can make a difference in our deepest places of longing, I invite you to listen as we peel back the layers and look for the thin places—where heaven and earth meet, and where we discover what it means to be fully known and fully loved. So join us.
Shane J. Wood (PhD, University of Edinburgh) is professor of New Testament and Its Origins at Ozark Christian College. In addition to speaking at churches and conferences worldwide, Shane produces a variety of audio, video, and written resources available at shanejwood.com. He is the author of multiple books, with his most recent book entitled "Thinning the Veil: Encountering Jesus Christ in the Book of Revelation" (IVP). Shane and his wife, Sara, have four children and live in southwest Missouri.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shane Wood (00:00):
In Revelation, who you worship you become because
(00:02):
your action flows from identity.
And what worship is doing isit's actually crafting your
identity. This is why idolatryis so dangerous. Is because when
you worship something other thanGod, you take on their
characteristics and qualities.
And that happens, that transfer.
It happens through worship.
Joshua Johnson (00:34):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, for a lot
of people, Revelation is theBible's great mystery, full of
wild images and swirlingpredictions, often left to
collect dust or to stir uparguments about the end times.
(00:57):
But beneath all the confusion,Revelation can also speak to
something deeply human, our achefor intimacy, our struggle with
loneliness, and our longing toknow that God is closer than we
think. Today, I'm joined byShane J wood, Professor,
theologian and author ofthinning the veil. Shane has
(01:19):
spent decades steeped inRevelation, not as a code book
for the future, but as a guidefor living with honesty and
presence right now, his approachis all about transformation.
What does it mean to let the wayof Jesus reshape our identity,
our relationships and the way wemove through a world that often
feels disconnected? In thisconversation, we dive into how
(01:40):
loneliness touches us all, howthe presence of God can feel
just out of reach, and how themessage of revelation invites us
to draw near to a God and to oneanother. We talk about the
cycles of power and fear thatkeep us apart, and how worship
and vulnerability can open thedoor to real, embodied intimacy.
(02:00):
If you've ever wondered whereGod is in the middle of your
isolation, or if faith can makea difference in our deepest
places of longing, I invite youto listen as we peel back the
layers and look for the thinplaces where heaven and earth
meet and where we discover whatit means to be fully known and
fully loved. So join us as wetake an unexpected Look at
(02:23):
Revelation through the lens ofloneliness and intimacy, so that
the veil will be thinned and wecan realize that God is closer
than we think. Here is myconversation with Shane J wood,
Shane, welcome to shiftingculture. Excited to have you
Shane Wood (02:42):
on thanks for joining me. My goodness. Thank
you for having me. I appreciateit. I'm really excited to
Joshua Johnson (02:47):
get into thinning the veil. Your new book
about Revelation, thismysterious book that is so life
giving and life transforming, ifwe let it be, if we just forget
about trying to predict the endof the world and actually let it
read us and inform how we live.
It could be really life giving.
(03:07):
You've done a lot of revelationwork in your life. You You're
steeped in it, and you talkabout it, you teach it. Why
revelation? Why is this booksomething that you're fascinated
with, yeah,
Shane Wood (03:21):
you know, some some wonder if I'm just a glutton for
punishment, and maybe, in someways, I am, but, but truthfully,
it's, it's a book that grabbed ahold of my heart almost 25 years
ago as an undergrad here where Inow teach at Ozark Christian
College, and it just never letme Go. It's this fascinating
combination of of art and yetthe mind, where you're wrestling
(03:45):
with images as well as themessages themselves. It's a book
that really transformed me, Iwould even almost say, more,
than any other book I'veencountered in the in the Bible.
And it just seems to keep ongiving.
Joshua Johnson (03:58):
Take me into that place of you as an
undergrad who was Shane wood atthat point, and what were you
wrestling with, and why did itcapture your heart? What was
transforming to you at thatpoint in your
Shane Wood (04:11):
life? I was a curious young punk, is probably
the way I would describe that.
And I had grown up in the churchmy whole life, but whenever
there were rocks, I had neverreally been exposed to or
allowed to turn over. I wasintrigued by them, and so I
guess you could call it a partof my rebellious phase as an
undergrad. Was my sophomore yeardeciding I'm going to take
(04:31):
revelation. I've never heard asermon on it. We didn't really
talk about it in Sunday school,and I want to know what they've
been keeping hidden from me, andwhat I found was both shocking
with the strangeness of theimagery, but I found it to be so
clearly, almost sternlychallenging to me as a young
follower of Jesus that waslooking to lead other followers
(04:56):
of Jesus,
Joshua Johnson (04:59):
I think really.
Your in your early 20s, you'regoing going through that phase
when you get challenged withsomething. Oftentimes you're
you're overzealous to put thatinto practice, to do something
with it. So what did you do withit, with the challenge? Like,
what did it like create theimpetus for you to start to do
in your
Shane Wood (05:20):
life. Yeah, it was more of the of the
transformative elements that Ifound, you know, whenever I saw
myself reflected in the churchof Ephesus, who is really good
at truth, but not really good athandling that truth with love.
And I saw a lot of myself inthat as a young, 20 year old and
and how Jesus even looks at thatchurch and says, and yet, I'm
(05:41):
this close to removing yourlampstand like Shane, you can
get all the right answers, butif you don't handle it with the
tenderness of God, then it'sstill actually a weird form of
rebellion. I mean, so it wasthose consistent challenges as a
young, 20 year old that reallyjust kept me coming from more
because I grew up in a littlebit of a legalistic setting, and
(06:01):
so the idea of self immolationor self lashing, I was attuned
to, but not one when it camewith this tenderness. So
Revelation three to the churchof Laodicea, Jesus says, well,
but I rebuke those that I love.
So it's, it's not a hitting,it's, it's a guiding and that
that voice in Revelation keptpulling me deeper in
Joshua Johnson (06:24):
before we get into the machinations of
Revelation. What is actuallysaying? I want to know, what are
some of the threads? What arethe the places that you have
seen the church veer off when itcomes to Revelation, that we're
maybe asking the wrongquestions. Where are we off the
track
Shane Wood (06:42):
on some level, what has pulled us into different
directions than maybe whatRevelation was hoping to guide
us in is our longing forsignificance. We each have this
as individuals. We want ourlives to mean something, and
some of the times that we dothis can be uplifting to
ourselves and others, and someof our some of our pursuits of
meaning or significance can bemisguided, and I think in this
(07:05):
case, what we're doing is we'vetaken revelation and we've
turned it into a book ofprediction, a book that's going
to tell us the future. Why?
Because, on some sense, ourpursuit of trying to figure out
when Jesus is coming back againis asking the question, Does my
time, does my life at thismoment, matter to God, and what
more ultimate significance couldit have if we were living in the
(07:28):
time that Jesus was coming backand we could predict it? And as
a result, we've taken this bookthat I think is calling us to
something deeper than mereprediction, but we've taken it
and we've settled for predictionof the future, with Revelation
forcing it into conversationsthat revelation simply just
doesn't, isn't really interestedin discussing. So
Joshua Johnson (07:51):
what is it interested in discussing? What
is revelation about? Then, ifit's not just about predicting
the end of the world, what isrevelation about,
Shane Wood (08:01):
yeah, it's about what every other prophetic book
in the entire Bible is about,and that's the transformation of
the reader, and that's one ofthe things we often overlook.
You know, we have Daniel andIsaiah and Ezekiel and and all
of these books that do, attimes, engage with the future,
but if future is ever predictedor engaged, it's in service of a
(08:22):
greater goal, and that is therepentance of the reader, the
drawing closer of the reader tothe God that is sovereign over
history regardless of whathappens. And that's revelations
goal. Revelations goal is thetransformation of those that are
receiving it. Take
Joshua Johnson (08:39):
me into the writer of Revelation. I mean, a
John. Where was he? What washappening in his life?
Shane Wood (08:44):
You know, we're at the end of the first century,
and so at this time, Domitian isthe emperor of of the Roman
Empire. And it's a time oftension. Domitian is the younger
brother of Titus, who onlyreigned for two years, 79 to 81
and his dad, Vespasian, was, wasthe primary general that even
you know, was instrumental inthe destruction of Jerusalem and
(09:05):
of the temple. And when Domitianis reigning, he's kind of
struggling with this bad resume,just kind of like the small man
complex, where he just reallydidn't have a lot to demonstrate
his legitimacy to be theEmperor. And what that led to
was was chaotic expressions ofviolence towards the Senate and
towards anything he saw as athreat to his legitimacy,
(09:28):
including Christians or thosethat were falling into Jewish
ways. Is one of the ways thatthe Roman writers wrote,
especially when it came toprophets claiming to be
empowered by God, and John wouldhave fallen into this category.
John's the last living apostle.
He has been ministering in AsiaMinor for this point, for
decades, which would have been,you know what? The cities of
(09:51):
Revelation are actually writtento Ephesus all the way through a
lot of see Laodicea andrevelation. One begins with him
exiled in. On the island ofPatmos because of his testimony
to the word of Jesus Christ. Iwhere I begin in the book within
the veil, is trying to reallyput on the flesh of John. John
was separate from what wasfamiliar. He was missing
funerals of the people that heministered to. He was missing
(10:14):
births. He was missingbirthdays. He was alone and
lonely and separated from thosethat he loves. And therefore, I
think revelation begins on avery different note than what we
think. It begins on a note ofloneliness.
Joshua Johnson (10:30):
Well, if it begins on a note of loneliness,
that actually helps us enterinto this mysterious book that
we think is mysterious. We're ina culture of loneliness at the
moment, there's a lot of lonelypeople, and there's a lot of
speculation of why we're alllonely. But loneliness is there?
Have you dealt with loneliness,and what then, if you have then,
(10:53):
how has revelation then impactedyou in the midst of loneliness?
Actually,
Shane Wood (10:59):
in chapter one, I think one of the very first
things, I quote, is my journalat like, three in the morning
where I am I'm just crying outto God in a time of loneliness
and and one of the things, as Iwas reflecting on Revelation in
my own life, is loneliness findseverybody. It doesn't take into
consideration your your genderor your ethnicity or your bank
account. It, it finds everyoneand absolutely, there have been
(11:23):
significant seasons, even recentwhere, where loneliness has been
all consuming. But as I wrestledwith John's pursuit of
loneliness, as well as saintsthroughout history, from Mother
Teresa, who I bring up inchapter one as well, who her
book come be, my lightdemonstrates that she
experienced, a darkness, aseparation from Jesus for 27
(11:44):
years, where she didn't senseHim. And that, to me, wasn't
just like comfort in the senseof like, you know, Misery loves
company, but it makes me stopand go, Okay, this isn't a
disease that demonstrates I'mfar from God. It might actually
be a conduit through which I canfind intimacy with God if I
follow it in the way of theapostles and saints
Joshua Johnson (12:03):
and mother, Teresa kept going and did her
work in the midst of like, Godis far from me. I don't sense
His presence at all. And I'mgonna do this difficult thing.
Calcutta is no joke like andeverything that she was she was
doing, I can't imagine being inher position and not feeling the
presence of God and doing itanyways. How do we then stay
(12:25):
faithful in the midst, when thepresence of God is far from us,
we don't sense the presence.
What does that look like? Whatdid you learn from Mother Teresa
that can help us continue on andbe faithful?
Shane Wood (12:38):
Yeah, you know, in and this is actually what we're
talking about here. Is evenwhere the title of the book was,
was born. You know the idea thebooks that's in titles thinning
the veil. And the idea is thatin Revelation, and it's
something that Mother Teresa sawthat I'm trying to see. But in
Revelation, the veil that weassume separates Heaven and
Earth is actually not as thickas we've assumed. That in
(13:00):
Revelation one, you know, Jesusis walking amongst the
lampstands. And it says at theend of chapter one that the lamp
stands are the churches, like heis present among us in a variety
of ways throughout the text. Soin chapters two and three, there
is an angel that has been thathas been charged with the
(13:20):
vitality of the differentcongregations in each of the
cities. Why? Because what wethink is beyond the veil is
actually amongst us, and viceversa. So in Revelation eight,
when we pray, all of Heaven goessilent for half an hour to
receive our prayers. Why?
Because the veil is not as thickas we've assumed, and and the
way that veil became so thin wasthrough Jesus. And so what I see
(13:43):
in Mother Teresa, and what I seein Revelation is this, this
belief that regardless of whatour eyes or our mind may play
tricks on us about what wecurrently perceive as God's
closeness or farness from us,that he is actually far more
closer than what it is thatwe've assumed. Now some of us
may experience that closenesslike the warmth of a mother's
(14:05):
hug. Some of us may experienceit, though more of like getting
close to the sun, and when youare close to the sun, that the
light actually blinds you, andyou experience intimacy as a
darkness, but it's actually hiscloseness. So
Joshua Johnson (14:22):
what is he saying to the churches in here,
the seven churches, and so ifit's a revelation of Jesus, talk
about intimacy to lonely people.
You're bringing about intimacy.
It feels like he's speaking tobelievers in this place. What's
he trying to say? How is hetrying to move us in a direction
(14:44):
that looks more like Jesus?
Shane Wood (14:45):
I think it has a lot to do with what happens when we
are lonely. When we are lonely,we become. We can become, I
guess I should say it's not anassured thing, but we can become
erratic in our emotions or inour. Frustrations, or in our
desire to bring stability towhat feels very unstable. And so
(15:06):
typically, what we do is we finddifferent ways to medicate,
whether it be through numbing orwhether it be through bouts of
anger, or like John, you know,in Revelation, twice, he
worships an angel. So idolatry,which is, which is what
loneliness does is it tempts usto become someone that at our
core, even as Christians, we'renot. And what Revelation
(15:26):
challenges us with is this ideato see clearly. It thins the
veil to be able to see, allow usto see closeness of God, but
also to see who the enemy trulyis and how the enemy functions,
and what weapons we can use tofight that enemy, like faith and
truth and love. But what weaponsalso don't work with this enemy,
(15:47):
like violence or like, you know,bouts of anger or self
protection, Revelation calls usto a different way of living,
not because we want to bedifferent, but because Jesus has
forged this path through his ownbouts with loneliness, like in
Gethsemane. So
Joshua Johnson (16:05):
when we're in this space with John, there is,
there is an empire at themoment, that was trying to
destroy Christians and Jews, andthere's a place where you're
saying, hey, if we defeat thisempire, life will be okay. But
Jesus may be saying somethingelse here. What's it having to
say to us in the midst of livingin Empire, or us being the
(16:29):
Empire, what is it
Shane Wood (16:33):
exactly? What's
Joshua Johnson (16:35):
it saying in the midst of it is Jesus saying, you
follow these things, you candefeat this earthly Empire right
here and you're going to beokay? Or is he saying something
more substantial and more cosmosin nature. What Revelation
Shane Wood (16:51):
describes is, if your target is to destroy the
empire that is trying to destroyyou, you've you're settling. The
target's too small and that nowthat's difficult whenever you
are experiencing the directstruggle and pain and
persecution of this empire, but,but Roman revelation is actually
referred to multiple times asBabylon, which means, number
(17:11):
one, we've seen this before.
Like this isn't a new issue.
This goes back generations.
We've seen it with with Danieland his three companions going
into Nebuchadnezzar reign, we'veseen this iteration of empires
reigning. And what the empiresare is a temptation to believe
that the world functions in away that's different than what
(17:33):
God has described it asfunctioning. But power is
different than a sacrificiallamb, that victory is different
than sacrificing yourself likeChrist did on the cross. And so
whenever you're surrounded byEmpire, you're surrounded by
illusion, you're surrounded bythis temptation that that if you
grasp for power like Adam andEve did in the Garden of Eden,
(17:56):
then you can become God. But itdidn't work for Adam and Eve and
it doesn't work for empires. Andso what Revelation does is it
clarifies the enemy. Itbasically says that the goal is
to target the dragon and the twobeasts, which is this unholy
trinity that parodies God theFather, God the Son and God the
Spirit. And even though thistrinity, at the time of the end
(18:18):
of the first century is usingRome to destroy Rome just means
you'll be courting anotherBabylon. You really haven't
advanced anything, but wheneveryou convert that enemy into a
friend, now, all of a sudden thekingdom of Satan starts to
falter where love of enemy andRevelation is a very like the
Sermon on the Mount resonatesthrough the book of Revelation
(18:42):
in ways that we often don't see.
But the Empire intentionallypushes us into this delusion so
that we can continue toperpetuate the kingdom by not
knowing who the true enemy is.
So
Joshua Johnson (18:54):
if we don't know the true enemy, if we think it's
this earthly empire, one of thethings that it does for me is
think, Hey, I'm going to take uparms, or I'm going to try to
gain power so that I couldoverthrow this empire. So I take
on earthly power so I coulddefeat earthly power. But we're
not actually then seeing thetrue enemy behind us, right? So
(19:19):
then what is, what is ourposture? How should, then,
should we live? What does thatlook like in the midst of a
power struggle and powerdynamics that are unjust and are
not supposed to be there?
Shane Wood (19:34):
It's to believe the ridiculousness of Revelation
when it says that the true actof war against the enemy is your
worship. And I just don't thinkwe believe that. And you can see
this just really by scrollingthrough Christian feeds on
social media, we believe thatgrasps of power through anger
and vitriol is the way to getwhat it is that we have decided
(19:57):
is what God wants, when inreality. What God is calling us
to is something that's farbeyond social media feeds or,
frankly, any political positionthat any Christian could ever
even run for. It's calling us toa worship that is so profound
that we do not just merely knowabout Jesus or talk about him,
but we become the hands and feetof Jesus, and as Revelation 14
(20:20):
says, we go wherever the lambgoes, even if it's to a cross.
Joshua Johnson (20:24):
We have these cycles over and over and over
again of some power coming intothis world, destroying somebody.
And then maybe there'srevolution. There's something
where the subjugated people thentake power, and then they go,
Hey, we have power. We cansubjugate other people. And it's
(20:45):
just it's a cycle of revengeover and over again. Have you
seen anything? How do we stopthat cycle? What stops the cycle
of revenge believing
Shane Wood (20:56):
what Christ revealed at the cross? And so let me, let
me get a little personal, toshow you how I've even seen this
in my own life. So my story,which I've written about in in a
in another book called betweentwo trees, is I was, I was
molested by a babysitter when Iwas six years old, and what I
believed in my heart for 25years was two things would
(21:17):
actually free me from thissecrecy, telling no one. And
number two, anger, hatredtowards the babysitter, what I,
what I finally started towrestle with through counseling
and therapy, and frankly, in myprayer closet was the only way
to truly, to truly be free ofthis, this victimizing moment.
To be a victim that is that isno longer being victimized, is
(21:41):
to convert that enemy into afriend, not through necessarily
direct reconciliation, becausethat isn't always safe, but
through forgiveness, where Igenuinely look at him and go
your pain, which was probablypassed on from somebody else to
him, that has now been passed onto me, dies with me, that that
pain will no longer be on tour.
It will be buried in me, and itwill be resurrected into scars
(22:05):
that celebrate a wound that isnot only something that was
deep, but something that ishealed. And that's what Christ
did he he took the violence andthe anger of the world into
himself so that it does not passon beyond him. And what if that
was the posture with which weengage the greatest enemy in all
of our stories? How does thatthen start to change, not only
(22:29):
church discourses, but onlineforums, and, frankly, even the
way in which we function as asociety, as a culture? What if
we were a culture not of angerand vengeance, but a culture of
grace and mercy, not one wherepeople aren't held accountable,
but one where ultimately theaccountability only truly is
found, not when somebody is inprison for what they've done,
(22:51):
but for whenever the victim andthe victimizer can truly both
find grace in Jesus, Christ.
Man,
Joshua Johnson (22:59):
what a wonderful world that would be like that
man the church would be thechurch. So if I'm focusing on
enemy, one of the enemies thatwe're trying to focus on, if
we're looking at the book ofRevelation, which is not even
there, but is talking about theAntiChrist, and it's not even
antichrist, is the Antichrist inthe book of Revelation, it's not
(23:22):
mentioned one time. Okay, sothen, why do we talk about it,
and why are we always looking atthe next US president to be the
Antichrist?
Shane Wood (23:31):
Yeah, we're we're well. And you know, some of that
has to do with the way in whichwe deal with our pain. We love
to project our pain onto otherpeople instead of staring it
square in the face. We love todo this. And so we grab
different figures, you know. Sosecond, Thessalonians, two, this
man of lawlessness, and FirstJohn, and second John, where it
mentions an antichrist. Westitch together these figures
(23:53):
once again to trying to find away in which this moment in
history is significant. Buttypically, that's done through
casting stones at the peoplethat we don't like. So the
Antichrist figure, which Iactually don't believe the Bible
teaches, is a future figure,First John, and second, John
very clearly say that theAntichrist is among us, and it's
anybody that denies that Jesusis has come in the flesh like it
(24:16):
gives us a definition. We justdon't accept it as an
antichrist. They're plural.
Yeah, at times it even saysantichrists, and they are
presently among you. And but youknow, we've seen Martin Luther
was called the Antichrist byCatholics, and the Pope was
called an antichrist by thereformers. And we've done this
throughout history as a way ofoutsourcing our pain, as a way
of medicating it, by casting itupon someone else. And again,
(24:40):
that goes back to what we justtalked about a minute ago.
Instead, instead of looking forsome future figure that we can
cast our problems on, why don'twe take Jesus up on his offer?
Joshua Johnson (24:53):
How do we do that? How do we take him up on
his offer and walk into it like,what does that look like? A
Shane Wood (24:58):
step at a time to.
The pain. And this is, this iskind of the mystery of pain.
Whenever you in Revelation doesthis, when you look at and,
frankly, reflection on thecrucifixion itself, does this.
Is one of the things about theanatomy of pain. Is when you
confront it and walk toward it,it actually begins to shrink.
But the more that you hide fromit, and more that you walk away
(25:19):
from it, the more that itactually grows and controls you,
not just in conscious moments,but in subconscious movements.
Walking towards the pain, whichcan create great senses of
loneliness, but walking towardit is the only way that we can
stop entrusting the darknesswith something that only the
light can handle. And at times,this is done in in a variety of
(25:40):
settings, whether it be throughprayer, professional therapists
or counseling, pastors, maybeeven the perpetrators
themselves, if that's apossibility and it's safe to do
that, but hiding from paincontinues these spirals and
cycles of violence because we'relooking for a place to put it
Joshua Johnson (25:58):
like like rubber bands. If you run away from the
rubber bands on either side,right, you're just going to
break. But if you run towardsit, the tension releases, and
you're able to then, yeah,forgive. And so you're running
towards that, that pain, butit's actually then it relieves
tension, which we think that theother way is going to relieve
(26:19):
the tension, but all it does isbreak us. We're holding on to
things that we are never meantto hold on to. And
Shane Wood (26:25):
what you just described there is exactly what
we see is the progression fromGethsemane to Jesus in front of
Pontius Pilate in Gethsemane, hehas this pain in front of him
that he's trying to find a wayaround. And he eventually
presses into it, surrenders it,and when he does it, brings a
steadiness. He's not erratic. Hedoesn't even feel the need to to
(26:47):
speak when he's being falselyaccused. He has a steadiness and
a resolve that, yes, moves tothe cross greater pain, but
eventually moves to the abilitywhen he's hanging on the cross,
for him to be able to say,Father, forgive these enemies.
They don't know what they'redoing.
Joshua Johnson (27:03):
When I have anxious thoughts, if I'm in some
anxiety or worry that there'ssome pain, and I just I wanted
to go away. I try to hold ontight. And when I hold on tight,
it feels like it gets worse andworse. But when I open things up
and surrender to it, like Jesusdead and he surrendered to it.
(27:23):
It feels freeing. I don't knowhow that works, but it does.
That's right, like, like, whatdoes surrender look like for us
there in the midst of all this?
Then,
Shane Wood (27:35):
yeah, and it's to me, that's the daily that's the
daily push into the promises ofGod that, frankly, is beyond
what we're able to see. Hencethe idea of thinning the veil.
And it's something I'm learningdaily, and I feel like it's
where I'm at the last fourmonths or so. It's what God's
really called me deeper into, issurrender in everything. Because
worry is, is my number one sin,which some people are like, Oh,
(27:58):
that's your number one sin. Andit's like, well, it was one of
the you know, things that chokedout the fruit, you know, in
Jesus's parable of the soil. Butwhatever you know, but it is you
know, what worry at its coresays is, I care about how things
come out in the end. And caringis not the problem. It's
carrying the problem that is,frankly, just too large for me
(28:21):
to carry. And again, that whatwe're describing with worry and
the same thing as prediction isthis difficult relationship
between us and the future, thedestabilization of future we try
to apprehend by predicting it orby worrying about it, which
typically our worry is trying tooutflank, find a solution for
that which we can't find asolution for and ultimately, the
(28:43):
only antidote is to actuallycontrol what you can control.
But, but press into the serenityof God, knowing that most of
what it is that exists only hecan control, and he's pretty
good at it.
Joshua Johnson (28:57):
He's much better than I am. He's much better than
I indeed that's good. How muchis the book of Revelation
talking to us about our ourdiscipleship to Jesus, how we
then should emulate Jesus,embody Jesus, be like Jesus, and
then, how does that informdiscipleship and disciple making
(29:18):
in our lives?
Shane Wood (29:19):
Yeah, the answer to that would be, whether we
believe it or not, every chapterof all in all 404 verses of
revelation has that goal, andthat's even something that
that's hard for us to get past,because we're so caught up in
these predictive elements andthings that nature, but, but,
but, John is a pastor writing tohis congregation like we're
overhearing A congregate. We'reoverhearing a conversation in
(29:42):
Revelation, And his goal is thesame thing that all of us that
are pastors and disciple makersis, is to help guide them into a
deeper relationship with Jesusby becoming his hands and feet.
And so how does this impactdisciple making, the goal of the
disciple, and I've alreadyquoted this once, but in
Revelation. 14, three, there'sthis image of the 144,000 who
(30:03):
have the lamb's name and thename of God that's emblazoned on
their foreheads, but it saysthis fascinating phrase that
says, they follow the Lambwherever He goes. And it's one
of those things where I my sonand I, we spent this this
weekend together at a father sonretreat, and we were memorizing,
uh, Mark 1228, through 30. Youknow, what is the greatest
(30:25):
commandment, love, Lord of Godwith all your heart, soul, mind
and strength. And then on, onSunday night, um, after the
retreat, um, he was, he washaving just some struggles. He
was having some issues, um, andhe was using his words to hurt
other people as a way of dealingwith his own pain. And we were
sitting in the in the thegarage, and I was talking
through all of it with him, andfinally I just said, Hey, buddy,
(30:46):
listen, we spent all weekendlong memorizing this verse. And
I said, Do you remember theverse? And He quoted it word for
word. And I said, it's wonderfulthat you can memorize scripture,
but if you don't embody it,you're not actually doing what
the scripture is asking you todo, like, like, like. The Bible
is not just teaching us aboutthe Word of God. It is calling
(31:07):
to craft us into the Word of Goditself, like we are to do what
Christ did for us, put on put onflesh. You know, didn't grasp
equality with God, but, butinstead took on the flesh of us.
He's asking us to do the sameand invert and reverse, to not
grab onto the flesh of our sin,but to clothe ourselves with
(31:30):
Christ, as Colossians, threesays, to actually become the
hands and feet of Jesus, so thatwe can live up to the name that
Paul gives us in FirstCorinthians 12, and that's the
body of Christ. That's not ametaphor. That's a calling. You
Joshua Johnson (31:43):
said this something was written on their
foreheads, and they followed thelamb. It looked like a this is
my identity. This is who I am.
You could see it right here, myforehead, and I'm going to
follow this lamb. So theAntichrist may not be mentioned
in Revelation. Mark of the Beastis right? So this number is 666,
if I have that on my head, itseems like I'm following,
(32:05):
following something else. I'mfollowing the ways of the world,
or the ways of empire, whateverit is. I'm following something
different. How does our lifeflow from our identity? So
Shane Wood (32:17):
in Revelation, who you worship, you become. That's
the that's one of the key linesthat I bring out in the book
around, I think around chapterfive, because, because action
flows from identity. So I begin,I believe it's chapter four or
five on with a quote from StuartBriscoe, who once said, The more
you tell someone who they are,the less you have to tell them
(32:37):
what to do. And the reason whyis is because your action flows
from identity, and what worshipis doing is it's actually
crafting your identity. This iswhy idolatry is so dangerous. Is
because when you worshipsomething other than God, you
take on their characteristicsand qualities. And that happens,
(32:58):
that transference happensthrough worship. But the more
that we take on or the more thatwe press ourselves into Christ
Himself, worshiping God, theFather, the Son and the Spirit,
the more that we should betaking on their qualities, or,
as it says elsewhere in theBible, the fruit of the Spirit.
But worship is the conduitthrough which transformation
(33:19):
happens, which is ultimately whyworship is the place where the
war is fought.
Joshua Johnson (33:23):
So the fruits of what is happening in our lives,
the action of our lives, thenreflects back to us who we're
worshiping or what we'reworshiping. So what is
recognizing the fruit in ourlives, and not just like
throwing stones at somebodyelse, but actually doing that
self reflection of saying, Oh,what is the real fruit of my
(33:43):
life, not just the knowledge ofmy life, or not just the things
I know about, but what isactually coming out of my Yeah,
yeah.
Shane Wood (33:50):
In Revelation, what you do is not, not divorced from
who you are at all. As a matterof fact, that that's even the
conversation in chapters two andthree with the churches he goes,
here's your actions. But theproblem is, as you said, you
were following me, and you areright. The first place to start
is not down the pew. This isn'tone of those things where you
(34:10):
know, you you read the text andyou're like, Oh man, I wish you
know my friend was listening tothis sermon. It's or my wife,
or, you know, never been in thatsituation, never, no. But it is
the call of Revelation is tostare into the mirror of your
own soul and encounter Jesus inthat space. And what you always
will find is that God it willnot settle for you to stay the
(34:33):
same, but you will also findthat he is far more tender with
you than you are with yourself.
And but you're right, the actionis the entry point. I mean, if
we want to ask the question, Imean, this is a question we need
to ask as individuals andcollectively as a church, do our
actions match Christ? Because ifI'm going to take the first six
letters of the name Christianseriously, then it's not just
(34:56):
something that. I wear as a nametag, but it's something that
actually defines who I am andwhat, therefore what I do. So
Joshua Johnson (35:05):
then what it doesn't mean to be human? What
here
Shane Wood (35:08):
let me, let me tell you what it doesn't mean to be
human. What it means to be humandoes not mean to sin. And this
is a huge myth in the church,because people are like, Oh no,
to be human is to sin, and I'mlike, No, that's not true. If
that's the case, then Adam andEve weren't fully human until
Genesis three, like, like, evildidn't create Adam and Eve. And
(35:30):
if it to be human, if it meansto sin, then Jesus was never
human. If that's the case, thenwe're not actually saved. Like,
we have to remember that sin isthe imposter, not holiness?
Joshua Johnson (35:43):
Have we been flipped on his head? So is it
the pursuit of holiness? Is thatwhat it means to be human, or
what is it? Yeah,
Shane Wood (35:51):
I think that well, and I'm not, please don't hear
me playing semantic games, but Ido. I believe it is the pursuit
of God. Holiness will be abyproduct of our pursuit of him.
But what it means to be human isto actually to look like Jesus.
Jesus was the most fully human,true human, that we've ever
seen. As a matter of fact, he'sthe Irenaeus, who was a disciple
(36:16):
of Polycarp, who was a directdisciple of John, the apostle.
Irenaeus says that when it comesto the we were created in the
image of God, he said, we'veheard this in Word, but we've
never actually seen it untilChrist. So, so the image of God
we were created in in Genesis.
126, and 27 has been coveredwith with garments of skin, as
the Eastern theologians wouldsay, garments of skin from
(36:39):
Genesis 320, and 21 have coveredover the true image of God we
were created in. But Christ cameby putting on that skin, he came
to actually demonstrate to uswhat the image that we had been
divorced from or had marred whatit truly is so to be truly human
is to follow the Lamb whereverHe goes.
Joshua Johnson (37:04):
But it is a beautiful thing for me to sit
there and think, Okay, what itmeans to be human is Jesus, and
then try and then embody Jesus.
Because if we're made in theimage of God, this is it. He's
the image like he's the perfectimage that then we get to
follow. And so I then can knowwhat it means to be human, what
(37:27):
it means to truly live, what itmeans to be in this world. And
it's about being like Jesus. Andso if there are things in my
life that are not like Jesus. Igotta figure that out. I think
we all do. Take us back theninto this thinning the veil
conversation, heaven is closerthan we think. The kingdom is
(37:49):
have closer than we think. Godis closer than we think that the
veil is not thick. It's thinlike the world is a thin place.
It's not a thick place, right?
The the Spirit of God is, isthere with us, but we don't
recognize it. So then, how do welive if one revelation is not
just predictive, so it's notjust about where I go when I
(38:11):
die, and looking at heaven andmaking sure that the red heifers
are in Israel. And then we couldgo to heaven if the if it's not
just that. And then, if heavenis here with us, how do we
reconcile the fact that we haveheavenly things? Our enemy is
not flesh and blood, but it'sactually powers and
(38:32):
principalities. So it's allabout on the other side of the
veil, like, that's the realstuff. Like, what we're living
in is not really, it's it'shere, but it's real. So there's
a dichotomy of, like, am Iliving there, or am I living
here? Or, how do we merge thosetogether while we're living
life? Like, what does that looklike? No.
Shane Wood (38:53):
And that dichotomy that you're talking about is
created by by sin itself. Sin.
Sin doesn't just infest us. Itdoesn't just separate us from
God. It pushes us deeper intothe illusion that what we what
we see and perceive through thefilter of sin, is what we think
is real. And so the more thatyou confront the sin, which a
(39:14):
lot of the times, is wrapped upinto in your pain, the more that
the illusion itself starts todissipate, the more that you
start to to live life in a waythat God describes as as truly
is the way that life should belived. So things like forgiving
your enemy, things like prayingfor those that persecute you,
(39:35):
things like you know, it's themeek you know, in the the humble
and the weak that inherit thekingdom of God. I mean, it's,
it's, it's believing that thatactually is the way that it is.
The problem is, is that we havebecome so enmeshed in the
illusion that we actuallycontinue a to perpetuate sin in
our own lives, and B, tocontinue to function in the
(39:57):
world, in the. Way that is nottruly how the world functions,
but the only way that itfunctions, or we know how it
functions, is by, is by pressingdeeper into Christ himself. So
as we continue to shed these figleaves that are hiding us from
what is true, by pressing deeperinto light. Or, as you know,
Ephesians, five says that aschildren of light, we actually
(40:21):
begin to become brilliant, likethe light of Christ that is
shining on us. But the firstthing we need to do is wake up,
O sleeper, rise from the dead,and then the light of Christ can
shine on and through us. Soreally it's it's the dichotomy
only really is experiencedthrough the illusion of sin, but
the more that we peel away ourown sin, the more that we
(40:42):
realize that no god is a lotcloser and the enemy is a lot
more pervasive. And frankly, alot of the stuff that we see on
the surface is, you know, to usethe proverbial oceanic metaphor,
it's just the tip of theiceberg. This isn't, it isn't
really where the show ishappening.
Joshua Johnson (41:00):
I think a lot of people, their first identity is
human right is, I'm a sinner.
How does that then perpetuatethe illusion, oh,
Shane Wood (41:09):
it's a this. This is Oh, and this is, this may be one
of the more controversial thingsI say on here. This is one of
the things that's perpetuating alot of problems in our churches
today, is that most of ourworship services are centered on
that repetition of an identitystatement that pushes us deeper
into the illusion, more than itactually pushes us deeper to
(41:30):
God. So we will. There'svariations of it. We'll say
things like, man, God, I justdon't deserve to be in your
presence. But we think in doingthat, it actually exalts our His
love for us. But as a parent,I've had my youngest, who we
adopted. I had him once in amoment of contrition and a
(41:51):
moment of I'm sorry. He'sweeping, and he says, I don't
deserve to be your son. And Iimmediately fired off and went,
don't you ever say that to me? Isaid, it doesn't matter what you
do. You are my son, period. Anddon't ever say you don't deserve
that. And then I walked out ofthe room and thought, and yet I
say that to my Father in heavenall the time, thinking, This
(42:14):
draws me closer to him. Itdoesn't. It actually doesn't.
Now at the very beginning of thestarting line of your faith with
Jesus, there is a point whereyou have to actually admit, like
an addict, that you have aproblem. But if all that you
continue to repeat as you aremoving along the discipleship
journey, if all you keeprepeating is the mantras at the
(42:37):
beginning, you actually won'tget to run the race. Running the
race doesn't mean repeating thatyou are a sinner. It actually
starts. Whenever you're runningthe race, you start repeating
what God says about you. Youstart believing that what he
says is true, things like youare co heirs with Christ, that
you are my child, or Jesus evensays, and now I call you friend,
(43:00):
but we don't repeat those. And Ithink it's out of some weird,
twisted definition of humility,which is comparable more to a
divine depression than it isembracing who Christ not only
is, but who he says you are inhim.
Joshua Johnson (43:16):
I keep telling my wife, I'm amazing, I'm
awesome, and you're like, yeah,and you're so humble. She, you
know, she replies, I was like,Yes, I am humble. I know exactly
who I am, exactly who God is. IfI'm a co heir with Christ, I am
amazing, like I am there, I'mI'm with her. I'm a son of God.
I am a co heir with Christ, II'm sorry, I'm amazing. And
Shane Wood (43:41):
it's but it's but it's important. When you think
of the the parable The prodigalson, you see the collision of
the son going to the Fathersaying, I am worthless, and the
father saying, let's throw aparty and throw a robe around
you, because that's who youtruly are. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (43:58):
it's good. The one thing that you did say those
at the beginning of our journeywith Christ, right? You say,
like an addict, we have to say,we we have a problem. Yeah, I
see a lot of addicts go throughhealing and do a lot of great
things, but they continue tosay, I'm an addict, like they
continue to say, This is myidentity, even though they're
(44:19):
pursuing healing. What is so?
So, how do we reconcile that?
Yeah,
Shane Wood (44:24):
and I definitely would not critique methodologies
like aa that have clearly tappedinto something that is working.
What I will say is is that at acertain point, what the addict
is trying to say is that thetemptation is always real for
them to slip back into theirtheir habitual habits that led
them down the path todestruction to begin with, to to
(44:46):
get to a point where you don'tbelieve you have the capacity to
once again become addicted tosin or the medication of your
own pain or something like that,that would be just as terrifying
as you never embracing thoughthe new identities that Christ
gives you whenever you'reresurrected. So. There is a part
where the addict metaphor, Ithink, breaks down spiritually.
Because I think the more thatyou repeat spiritually the the
(45:08):
beginning of the addictsjourney, the harder it will be
for you to fully embrace thetransformation that comes with a
complete death and resurrectionin Christ.
Joshua Johnson (45:16):
So take us in the end of of the story. Where
is this all going like, what isRevelation headed to?
Shane Wood (45:23):
You know, Revelation 21 and 22 depicts this
unbelievable moment where allthat God had been excited about
comes out in full expression.
The way I describe it, I think,in the book, is, is God is
giddy. He is so excited. Andwhat makes him excited in
Revelation 21 is him being withus, and us being with him.
Where, where the veil is nolonger thin. The veil is
(45:46):
evaporated. There is no there isno veil. We have this full
expression of God. Or John 17three says, you know that
eternal life is to know God. Andso at the end of the book,
infinity of the veil, I wrestlewith this idea of first with me
and then the church at large.
But I'm like, am I worshiping aplace or a person? Am I more
(46:09):
excited about heaven or aboutthe intimacy with God? And
ultimately, whenever you seeRevelation, 21 and 22 describe
this closeness with God, theplace starts to fall into the
background, to the point whereI'm not if that's the location
where this intimacy can happen,sure, that's great, but the
intimacy is the goal, and theway I say it in the book is is,
(46:31):
but I don't want to wait untilthat moment to experience
knowing God. Matter of fact, Iwant to try to get to know him
so well down here that when Iget to heaven, I'm not even
really surprised by much,because I've tasted so much of
who he is. The
Joshua Johnson (46:46):
ultimate goal then is, is intimacy with God,
and we're living our life wherewe could be intimate with God,
then we can embody Jesus, who isthe ultimate one, who was
intimate with God. He didn't doanything unless the Father in
Heaven did it like he was sointimate with the Father.
That's, you know, that's how helived his life. And so then we
(47:09):
get to emulate that. And then sowe get to be be intimate here
and now in our life, and as weembody Jesus, then that means
that we could be intimate in ourrelationships with our families
and loved ones, that we couldactually experience communion
with each other and move from asense of loneliness to a place
(47:31):
of pure intimacy, which what
Shane Wood (47:34):
a beautiful picture.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Joshua Johnson (47:37):
Shane, what is your hope for this book, for
thinning the veil? What do youhope that readers will get from
this?
Shane Wood (47:43):
I think my hope is, is that they will encounter
revelation differently. Wouldbe, would be a one of the goals,
you know, to see it not as it'skind of funny. It's almost like,
whenever I say, No, no,Revelation is about Jesus. It's
almost like sometimes people arelike, disappointed. It's like,
don't, don't be disappointedbecause you get more of Jesus,
(48:03):
like allow it to be somethingthat satiates a thirst that you
may not even know, that you needquenched. But I think also
secondarily, I would say, I hopeit challenges readers of the
Bible to read it differently. Ithink biblical study at its best
is when you are unearthing thetext, but then you're allowing
the text to unearth you at thesame time. It's a it's a mutual
(48:26):
reading, where you aren't justreading the Word, you're
allowing the word to read you.
And I would hope that throughthis book, that that a that
readers will have seen me do itfirst, like I'm going to allow
the text, hopefully, what thebook is is me allowing myself to
be on Earth for everyone to see,and that that takes a little bit
(48:47):
of levels and layers ofvulnerability that I don't
always know, that I actuallyhave the capacity to engage but
but then b it would be to tohopefully invite them to do the
Same with their communities andwith their time of study, with
the word, if
Joshua Johnson (49:04):
you go back to your 21 year old self, what
advice would you give?
Shane Wood (49:07):
Be patient. I really would. I was in such a rush in
my early 20s that I ended upcourting a relationship with
worry and angst that ultimatelyI thought at the time in it did
well, I should say it this way,it produced addictions into in
(49:27):
me that were sociallyacceptable, like workaholism and
like degrees. But I would justtell myself, be patient. It'll
all unfold. Anything
Joshua Johnson (49:38):
you've been reading or watching lately you
recommend, oh,
Shane Wood (49:41):
man, great question.
I read very broadly, very Iusually try to find this is
going to be really weird.
Usually, I always try to findsomething that's way off base
that like that out of my normalstudy that that I read and so.
Right now I'm reading thebiography, Autobiography of
(50:04):
Nikola Tesla, who I found to bejust this fascinating figure
that, at this point, gets lostin a lot of car dealerships, but
he's just a fascinating figurethat's been stirring stuff in
me. And then I'm also readingthe underground. What is it? The
underground letters? I thinkthat's what it's called by
Fyodor Dostoevsky, which Ialways try to be reading
(50:25):
something by some of thefictional literary giants over
the last couple 100 years. Sothose two are grabbing my heart
right now.
Joshua Johnson (50:34):
That's good. How can people go get thinning the
veil and anywhere else you'dlike to point people to?
Shane Wood (50:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's available. Well, it's
available right now for preorder, but it'll be available
may 20, anywhere, Amazon, IVP,christianbooks.com, Barnes and
Noble wherever you can go andthen. But then I also do. I have
a website that offers hundredsof hours of free audio and video
(51:00):
lecture from from my studieshere at Ozark that they let me
put up online for free. So, andthat's Shane J wood.com so
Joshua Johnson (51:08):
thank you to Ozark for for that absolutely
let you put that up, and thankyou for doing that. So that's so
anybody can go Shane J wood.comand go see and just seep
yourself in hundreds of hours oflectures, and just go into a
little hole cave for a while,and then he'll come out
(51:29):
different. Hopefully, hopefullyit'll come out different. That'd
be good. Well, Shane, thank youfor this conversation. I really,
really enjoyed. You actuallytaken away some of this veil of
Revelation, that we actuallyhave been veiled, that we can't
see it clearly, that we thinkit's that it's a text, that it
actually isn't. And it is notjust a predictive future text,
(51:51):
but it is about Jesus, and ittells us how we could follow and
embody Jesus in incredible ways,that we could actually be
disciples of him in the midst ofpower and Empire, that it's not
just about the Empire that'shere today and now, but it is
about this cosmic unfoldingwhere Satan is trying to take
(52:14):
over, but God is more powerfulthat this light is here. It's
going to shine, it's going toshine bright, and we can
actually embody that, and wecould become intimate with God.
It's fantastic conversation.
Loved it. Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me. Iappreciate it.
Unknown (52:42):
You
In Revelation, who you worship you become because
(00:02):
your action flows from identity.
And what worship is doing isit's actually crafting your
identity. This is why idolatryis so dangerous. Is because when
you worship something other thanGod, you take on their
characteristics and qualities.
And that happens, that transfer.
It happens through worship.
Joshua Johnson (00:34):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, for a lot
of people, Revelation is theBible's great mystery, full of
wild images and swirlingpredictions, often left to
collect dust or to stir uparguments about the end times.
(00:57):
But beneath all the confusion,Revelation can also speak to
something deeply human, our achefor intimacy, our struggle with
loneliness, and our longing toknow that God is closer than we
think. Today, I'm joined byShane J wood, Professor,
theologian and author ofthinning the veil. Shane has
(01:19):
spent decades steeped inRevelation, not as a code book
for the future, but as a guidefor living with honesty and
presence right now, his approachis all about transformation.
What does it mean to let the wayof Jesus reshape our identity,
our relationships and the way wemove through a world that often
feels disconnected? In thisconversation, we dive into how
(01:40):
loneliness touches us all, howthe presence of God can feel
just out of reach, and how themessage of revelation invites us
to draw near to a God and to oneanother. We talk about the
cycles of power and fear thatkeep us apart, and how worship
and vulnerability can open thedoor to real, embodied intimacy.
(02:00):
If you've ever wondered whereGod is in the middle of your
isolation, or if faith can makea difference in our deepest
places of longing, I invite youto listen as we peel back the
layers and look for the thinplaces where heaven and earth
meet and where we discover whatit means to be fully known and
fully loved. So join us as wetake an unexpected Look at
(02:23):
Revelation through the lens ofloneliness and intimacy, so that
the veil will be thinned and wecan realize that God is closer
than we think. Here is myconversation with Shane J wood,
Shane, welcome to shiftingculture. Excited to have you
Shane Wood (02:42):
on thanks for joining me. My goodness. Thank
you for having me. I appreciateit. I'm really excited to
Joshua Johnson (02:47):
get into thinning the veil. Your new book
about Revelation, thismysterious book that is so life
giving and life transforming, ifwe let it be, if we just forget
about trying to predict the endof the world and actually let it
read us and inform how we live.
It could be really life giving.
(03:07):
You've done a lot of revelationwork in your life. You You're
steeped in it, and you talkabout it, you teach it. Why
revelation? Why is this booksomething that you're fascinated
with, yeah,
Shane Wood (03:21):
you know, some some wonder if I'm just a glutton for
punishment, and maybe, in someways, I am, but, but truthfully,
it's, it's a book that grabbed ahold of my heart almost 25 years
ago as an undergrad here where Inow teach at Ozark Christian
College, and it just never letme Go. It's this fascinating
combination of of art and yetthe mind, where you're wrestling
(03:45):
with images as well as themessages themselves. It's a book
that really transformed me, Iwould even almost say, more,
than any other book I'veencountered in the in the Bible.
And it just seems to keep ongiving.
Joshua Johnson (03:58):
Take me into that place of you as an
undergrad who was Shane wood atthat point, and what were you
wrestling with, and why did itcapture your heart? What was
transforming to you at thatpoint in your
Shane Wood (04:11):
life? I was a curious young punk, is probably
the way I would describe that.
And I had grown up in the churchmy whole life, but whenever
there were rocks, I had neverreally been exposed to or
allowed to turn over. I wasintrigued by them, and so I
guess you could call it a partof my rebellious phase as an
undergrad. Was my sophomore yeardeciding I'm going to take
(04:31):
revelation. I've never heard asermon on it. We didn't really
talk about it in Sunday school,and I want to know what they've
been keeping hidden from me, andwhat I found was both shocking
with the strangeness of theimagery, but I found it to be so
clearly, almost sternlychallenging to me as a young
follower of Jesus that waslooking to lead other followers
(04:56):
of Jesus,
Joshua Johnson (04:59):
I think really.
Your in your early 20s, you'regoing going through that phase
when you get challenged withsomething. Oftentimes you're
you're overzealous to put thatinto practice, to do something
with it. So what did you do withit, with the challenge? Like,
what did it like create theimpetus for you to start to do
in your
Shane Wood (05:20):
life. Yeah, it was more of the of the
transformative elements that Ifound, you know, whenever I saw
myself reflected in the churchof Ephesus, who is really good
at truth, but not really good athandling that truth with love.
And I saw a lot of myself inthat as a young, 20 year old and
and how Jesus even looks at thatchurch and says, and yet, I'm
(05:41):
this close to removing yourlampstand like Shane, you can
get all the right answers, butif you don't handle it with the
tenderness of God, then it'sstill actually a weird form of
rebellion. I mean, so it wasthose consistent challenges as a
young, 20 year old that reallyjust kept me coming from more
because I grew up in a littlebit of a legalistic setting, and
(06:01):
so the idea of self immolationor self lashing, I was attuned
to, but not one when it camewith this tenderness. So
Revelation three to the churchof Laodicea, Jesus says, well,
but I rebuke those that I love.
So it's, it's not a hitting,it's, it's a guiding and that
that voice in Revelation keptpulling me deeper in
Joshua Johnson (06:24):
before we get into the machinations of
Revelation. What is actuallysaying? I want to know, what are
some of the threads? What arethe the places that you have
seen the church veer off when itcomes to Revelation, that we're
maybe asking the wrongquestions. Where are we off the
track
Shane Wood (06:42):
on some level, what has pulled us into different
directions than maybe whatRevelation was hoping to guide
us in is our longing forsignificance. We each have this
as individuals. We want ourlives to mean something, and
some of the times that we dothis can be uplifting to
ourselves and others, and someof our some of our pursuits of
meaning or significance can bemisguided, and I think in this
(07:05):
case, what we're doing is we'vetaken revelation and we've
turned it into a book ofprediction, a book that's going
to tell us the future. Why?
Because, on some sense, ourpursuit of trying to figure out
when Jesus is coming back againis asking the question, Does my
time, does my life at thismoment, matter to God, and what
more ultimate significance couldit have if we were living in the
(07:28):
time that Jesus was coming backand we could predict it? And as
a result, we've taken this bookthat I think is calling us to
something deeper than mereprediction, but we've taken it
and we've settled for predictionof the future, with Revelation
forcing it into conversationsthat revelation simply just
doesn't, isn't really interestedin discussing. So
Joshua Johnson (07:51):
what is it interested in discussing? What
is revelation about? Then, ifit's not just about predicting
the end of the world, what isrevelation about,
Shane Wood (08:01):
yeah, it's about what every other prophetic book
in the entire Bible is about,and that's the transformation of
the reader, and that's one ofthe things we often overlook.
You know, we have Daniel andIsaiah and Ezekiel and and all
of these books that do, attimes, engage with the future,
but if future is ever predictedor engaged, it's in service of a
(08:22):
greater goal, and that is therepentance of the reader, the
drawing closer of the reader tothe God that is sovereign over
history regardless of whathappens. And that's revelations
goal. Revelations goal is thetransformation of those that are
receiving it. Take
Joshua Johnson (08:39):
me into the writer of Revelation. I mean, a
John. Where was he? What washappening in his life?
Shane Wood (08:44):
You know, we're at the end of the first century,
and so at this time, Domitian isthe emperor of of the Roman
Empire. And it's a time oftension. Domitian is the younger
brother of Titus, who onlyreigned for two years, 79 to 81
and his dad, Vespasian, was, wasthe primary general that even
you know, was instrumental inthe destruction of Jerusalem and
(09:05):
of the temple. And when Domitianis reigning, he's kind of
struggling with this bad resume,just kind of like the small man
complex, where he just reallydidn't have a lot to demonstrate
his legitimacy to be theEmperor. And what that led to
was was chaotic expressions ofviolence towards the Senate and
towards anything he saw as athreat to his legitimacy,
(09:28):
including Christians or thosethat were falling into Jewish
ways. Is one of the ways thatthe Roman writers wrote,
especially when it came toprophets claiming to be
empowered by God, and John wouldhave fallen into this category.
John's the last living apostle.
He has been ministering in AsiaMinor for this point, for
decades, which would have been,you know what? The cities of
(09:51):
Revelation are actually writtento Ephesus all the way through a
lot of see Laodicea andrevelation. One begins with him
exiled in. On the island ofPatmos because of his testimony
to the word of Jesus Christ. Iwhere I begin in the book within
the veil, is trying to reallyput on the flesh of John. John
was separate from what wasfamiliar. He was missing
funerals of the people that heministered to. He was missing
(10:14):
births. He was missingbirthdays. He was alone and
lonely and separated from thosethat he loves. And therefore, I
think revelation begins on avery different note than what we
think. It begins on a note ofloneliness.
Joshua Johnson (10:30):
Well, if it begins on a note of loneliness,
that actually helps us enterinto this mysterious book that
we think is mysterious. We're ina culture of loneliness at the
moment, there's a lot of lonelypeople, and there's a lot of
speculation of why we're alllonely. But loneliness is there?
Have you dealt with loneliness,and what then, if you have then,
(10:53):
how has revelation then impactedyou in the midst of loneliness?
Actually,
Shane Wood (10:59):
in chapter one, I think one of the very first
things, I quote, is my journalat like, three in the morning
where I am I'm just crying outto God in a time of loneliness
and and one of the things, as Iwas reflecting on Revelation in
my own life, is loneliness findseverybody. It doesn't take into
consideration your your genderor your ethnicity or your bank
account. It, it finds everyoneand absolutely, there have been
(11:23):
significant seasons, even recentwhere, where loneliness has been
all consuming. But as I wrestledwith John's pursuit of
loneliness, as well as saintsthroughout history, from Mother
Teresa, who I bring up inchapter one as well, who her
book come be, my lightdemonstrates that she
experienced, a darkness, aseparation from Jesus for 27
(11:44):
years, where she didn't senseHim. And that, to me, wasn't
just like comfort in the senseof like, you know, Misery loves
company, but it makes me stopand go, Okay, this isn't a
disease that demonstrates I'mfar from God. It might actually
be a conduit through which I canfind intimacy with God if I
follow it in the way of theapostles and saints
Joshua Johnson (12:03):
and mother, Teresa kept going and did her
work in the midst of like, Godis far from me. I don't sense
His presence at all. And I'mgonna do this difficult thing.
Calcutta is no joke like andeverything that she was she was
doing, I can't imagine being inher position and not feeling the
presence of God and doing itanyways. How do we then stay
(12:25):
faithful in the midst, when thepresence of God is far from us,
we don't sense the presence.
What does that look like? Whatdid you learn from Mother Teresa
that can help us continue on andbe faithful?
Shane Wood (12:38):
Yeah, you know, in and this is actually what we're
talking about here. Is evenwhere the title of the book was,
was born. You know the idea thebooks that's in titles thinning
the veil. And the idea is thatin Revelation, and it's
something that Mother Teresa sawthat I'm trying to see. But in
Revelation, the veil that weassume separates Heaven and
Earth is actually not as thickas we've assumed. That in
(13:00):
Revelation one, you know, Jesusis walking amongst the
lampstands. And it says at theend of chapter one that the lamp
stands are the churches, like heis present among us in a variety
of ways throughout the text. Soin chapters two and three, there
is an angel that has been thathas been charged with the
(13:20):
vitality of the differentcongregations in each of the
cities. Why? Because what wethink is beyond the veil is
actually amongst us, and viceversa. So in Revelation eight,
when we pray, all of Heaven goessilent for half an hour to
receive our prayers. Why?
Because the veil is not as thickas we've assumed, and and the
way that veil became so thin wasthrough Jesus. And so what I see
(13:43):
in Mother Teresa, and what I seein Revelation is this, this
belief that regardless of whatour eyes or our mind may play
tricks on us about what wecurrently perceive as God's
closeness or farness from us,that he is actually far more
closer than what it is thatwe've assumed. Now some of us
may experience that closenesslike the warmth of a mother's
(14:05):
hug. Some of us may experienceit, though more of like getting
close to the sun, and when youare close to the sun, that the
light actually blinds you, andyou experience intimacy as a
darkness, but it's actually hiscloseness. So
Joshua Johnson (14:22):
what is he saying to the churches in here,
the seven churches, and so ifit's a revelation of Jesus, talk
about intimacy to lonely people.
You're bringing about intimacy.
It feels like he's speaking tobelievers in this place. What's
he trying to say? How is hetrying to move us in a direction
(14:44):
that looks more like Jesus?
Shane Wood (14:45):
I think it has a lot to do with what happens when we
are lonely. When we are lonely,we become. We can become, I
guess I should say it's not anassured thing, but we can become
erratic in our emotions or inour. Frustrations, or in our
desire to bring stability towhat feels very unstable. And so
(15:06):
typically, what we do is we finddifferent ways to medicate,
whether it be through numbing orwhether it be through bouts of
anger, or like John, you know,in Revelation, twice, he
worships an angel. So idolatry,which is, which is what
loneliness does is it tempts usto become someone that at our
core, even as Christians, we'renot. And what Revelation
(15:26):
challenges us with is this ideato see clearly. It thins the
veil to be able to see, allow usto see closeness of God, but
also to see who the enemy trulyis and how the enemy functions,
and what weapons we can use tofight that enemy, like faith and
truth and love. But what weaponsalso don't work with this enemy,
(15:47):
like violence or like, you know,bouts of anger or self
protection, Revelation calls usto a different way of living,
not because we want to bedifferent, but because Jesus has
forged this path through his ownbouts with loneliness, like in
Gethsemane. So
Joshua Johnson (16:05):
when we're in this space with John, there is,
there is an empire at themoment, that was trying to
destroy Christians and Jews, andthere's a place where you're
saying, hey, if we defeat thisempire, life will be okay. But
Jesus may be saying somethingelse here. What's it having to
say to us in the midst of livingin Empire, or us being the
(16:29):
Empire, what is it
Shane Wood (16:33):
exactly? What's
Joshua Johnson (16:35):
it saying in the midst of it is Jesus saying, you
follow these things, you candefeat this earthly Empire right
here and you're going to beokay? Or is he saying something
more substantial and more cosmosin nature. What Revelation
Shane Wood (16:51):
describes is, if your target is to destroy the
empire that is trying to destroyyou, you've you're settling. The
target's too small and that nowthat's difficult whenever you
are experiencing the directstruggle and pain and
persecution of this empire, but,but Roman revelation is actually
referred to multiple times asBabylon, which means, number
(17:11):
one, we've seen this before.
Like this isn't a new issue.
This goes back generations.
We've seen it with with Danieland his three companions going
into Nebuchadnezzar reign, we'veseen this iteration of empires
reigning. And what the empiresare is a temptation to believe
that the world functions in away that's different than what
(17:33):
God has described it asfunctioning. But power is
different than a sacrificiallamb, that victory is different
than sacrificing yourself likeChrist did on the cross. And so
whenever you're surrounded byEmpire, you're surrounded by
illusion, you're surrounded bythis temptation that that if you
grasp for power like Adam andEve did in the Garden of Eden,
(17:56):
then you can become God. But itdidn't work for Adam and Eve and
it doesn't work for empires. Andso what Revelation does is it
clarifies the enemy. Itbasically says that the goal is
to target the dragon and the twobeasts, which is this unholy
trinity that parodies God theFather, God the Son and God the
Spirit. And even though thistrinity, at the time of the end
(18:18):
of the first century is usingRome to destroy Rome just means
you'll be courting anotherBabylon. You really haven't
advanced anything, but wheneveryou convert that enemy into a
friend, now, all of a sudden thekingdom of Satan starts to
falter where love of enemy andRevelation is a very like the
Sermon on the Mount resonatesthrough the book of Revelation
(18:42):
in ways that we often don't see.
But the Empire intentionallypushes us into this delusion so
that we can continue toperpetuate the kingdom by not
knowing who the true enemy is.
So
Joshua Johnson (18:54):
if we don't know the true enemy, if we think it's
this earthly empire, one of thethings that it does for me is
think, Hey, I'm going to take uparms, or I'm going to try to
gain power so that I couldoverthrow this empire. So I take
on earthly power so I coulddefeat earthly power. But we're
not actually then seeing thetrue enemy behind us, right? So
(19:19):
then what is, what is ourposture? How should, then,
should we live? What does thatlook like in the midst of a
power struggle and powerdynamics that are unjust and are
not supposed to be there?
Shane Wood (19:34):
It's to believe the ridiculousness of Revelation
when it says that the true actof war against the enemy is your
worship. And I just don't thinkwe believe that. And you can see
this just really by scrollingthrough Christian feeds on
social media, we believe thatgrasps of power through anger
and vitriol is the way to getwhat it is that we have decided
(19:57):
is what God wants, when inreality. What God is calling us
to is something that's farbeyond social media feeds or,
frankly, any political positionthat any Christian could ever
even run for. It's calling us toa worship that is so profound
that we do not just merely knowabout Jesus or talk about him,
but we become the hands and feetof Jesus, and as Revelation 14
(20:20):
says, we go wherever the lambgoes, even if it's to a cross.
Joshua Johnson (20:24):
We have these cycles over and over and over
again of some power coming intothis world, destroying somebody.
And then maybe there'srevolution. There's something
where the subjugated people thentake power, and then they go,
Hey, we have power. We cansubjugate other people. And it's
(20:45):
just it's a cycle of revengeover and over again. Have you
seen anything? How do we stopthat cycle? What stops the cycle
of revenge believing
Shane Wood (20:56):
what Christ revealed at the cross? And so let me, let
me get a little personal, toshow you how I've even seen this
in my own life. So my story,which I've written about in in a
in another book called betweentwo trees, is I was, I was
molested by a babysitter when Iwas six years old, and what I
believed in my heart for 25years was two things would
(21:17):
actually free me from thissecrecy, telling no one. And
number two, anger, hatredtowards the babysitter, what I,
what I finally started towrestle with through counseling
and therapy, and frankly, in myprayer closet was the only way
to truly, to truly be free ofthis, this victimizing moment.
To be a victim that is that isno longer being victimized, is
(21:41):
to convert that enemy into afriend, not through necessarily
direct reconciliation, becausethat isn't always safe, but
through forgiveness, where Igenuinely look at him and go
your pain, which was probablypassed on from somebody else to
him, that has now been passed onto me, dies with me, that that
pain will no longer be on tour.
It will be buried in me, and itwill be resurrected into scars
(22:05):
that celebrate a wound that isnot only something that was
deep, but something that ishealed. And that's what Christ
did he he took the violence andthe anger of the world into
himself so that it does not passon beyond him. And what if that
was the posture with which weengage the greatest enemy in all
of our stories? How does thatthen start to change, not only
(22:29):
church discourses, but onlineforums, and, frankly, even the
way in which we function as asociety, as a culture? What if
we were a culture not of angerand vengeance, but a culture of
grace and mercy, not one wherepeople aren't held accountable,
but one where ultimately theaccountability only truly is
found, not when somebody is inprison for what they've done,
(22:51):
but for whenever the victim andthe victimizer can truly both
find grace in Jesus, Christ.
Man,
Joshua Johnson (22:59):
what a wonderful world that would be like that
man the church would be thechurch. So if I'm focusing on
enemy, one of the enemies thatwe're trying to focus on, if
we're looking at the book ofRevelation, which is not even
there, but is talking about theAntiChrist, and it's not even
antichrist, is the Antichrist inthe book of Revelation, it's not
(23:22):
mentioned one time. Okay, sothen, why do we talk about it,
and why are we always looking atthe next US president to be the
Antichrist?
Shane Wood (23:31):
Yeah, we're we're well. And you know, some of that
has to do with the way in whichwe deal with our pain. We love
to project our pain onto otherpeople instead of staring it
square in the face. We love todo this. And so we grab
different figures, you know. Sosecond, Thessalonians, two, this
man of lawlessness, and FirstJohn, and second John, where it
mentions an antichrist. Westitch together these figures
(23:53):
once again to trying to find away in which this moment in
history is significant. Buttypically, that's done through
casting stones at the peoplethat we don't like. So the
Antichrist figure, which Iactually don't believe the Bible
teaches, is a future figure,First John, and second, John
very clearly say that theAntichrist is among us, and it's
anybody that denies that Jesusis has come in the flesh like it
(24:16):
gives us a definition. We justdon't accept it as an
antichrist. They're plural.
Yeah, at times it even saysantichrists, and they are
presently among you. And but youknow, we've seen Martin Luther
was called the Antichrist byCatholics, and the Pope was
called an antichrist by thereformers. And we've done this
throughout history as a way ofoutsourcing our pain, as a way
of medicating it, by casting itupon someone else. And again,
(24:40):
that goes back to what we justtalked about a minute ago.
Instead, instead of looking forsome future figure that we can
cast our problems on, why don'twe take Jesus up on his offer?
Joshua Johnson (24:53):
How do we do that? How do we take him up on
his offer and walk into it like,what does that look like? A
Shane Wood (24:58):
step at a time to.
The pain. And this is, this iskind of the mystery of pain.
Whenever you in Revelation doesthis, when you look at and,
frankly, reflection on thecrucifixion itself, does this.
Is one of the things about theanatomy of pain. Is when you
confront it and walk toward it,it actually begins to shrink.
But the more that you hide fromit, and more that you walk away
(25:19):
from it, the more that itactually grows and controls you,
not just in conscious moments,but in subconscious movements.
Walking towards the pain, whichcan create great senses of
loneliness, but walking towardit is the only way that we can
stop entrusting the darknesswith something that only the
light can handle. And at times,this is done in in a variety of
(25:40):
settings, whether it be throughprayer, professional therapists
or counseling, pastors, maybeeven the perpetrators
themselves, if that's apossibility and it's safe to do
that, but hiding from paincontinues these spirals and
cycles of violence because we'relooking for a place to put it
Joshua Johnson (25:58):
like like rubber bands. If you run away from the
rubber bands on either side,right, you're just going to
break. But if you run towardsit, the tension releases, and
you're able to then, yeah,forgive. And so you're running
towards that, that pain, butit's actually then it relieves
tension, which we think that theother way is going to relieve
(26:19):
the tension, but all it does isbreak us. We're holding on to
things that we are never meantto hold on to. And
Shane Wood (26:25):
what you just described there is exactly what
we see is the progression fromGethsemane to Jesus in front of
Pontius Pilate in Gethsemane, hehas this pain in front of him
that he's trying to find a wayaround. And he eventually
presses into it, surrenders it,and when he does it, brings a
steadiness. He's not erratic. Hedoesn't even feel the need to to
(26:47):
speak when he's being falselyaccused. He has a steadiness and
a resolve that, yes, moves tothe cross greater pain, but
eventually moves to the abilitywhen he's hanging on the cross,
for him to be able to say,Father, forgive these enemies.
They don't know what they'redoing.
Joshua Johnson (27:03):
When I have anxious thoughts, if I'm in some
anxiety or worry that there'ssome pain, and I just I wanted
to go away. I try to hold ontight. And when I hold on tight,
it feels like it gets worse andworse. But when I open things up
and surrender to it, like Jesusdead and he surrendered to it.
(27:23):
It feels freeing. I don't knowhow that works, but it does.
That's right, like, like, whatdoes surrender look like for us
there in the midst of all this?
Then,
Shane Wood (27:35):
yeah, and it's to me, that's the daily that's the
daily push into the promises ofGod that, frankly, is beyond
what we're able to see. Hencethe idea of thinning the veil.
And it's something I'm learningdaily, and I feel like it's
where I'm at the last fourmonths or so. It's what God's
really called me deeper into, issurrender in everything. Because
worry is, is my number one sin,which some people are like, Oh,
(27:58):
that's your number one sin. Andit's like, well, it was one of
the you know, things that chokedout the fruit, you know, in
Jesus's parable of the soil. Butwhatever you know, but it is you
know, what worry at its coresays is, I care about how things
come out in the end. And caringis not the problem. It's
carrying the problem that is,frankly, just too large for me
(28:21):
to carry. And again, that whatwe're describing with worry and
the same thing as prediction isthis difficult relationship
between us and the future, thedestabilization of future we try
to apprehend by predicting it orby worrying about it, which
typically our worry is trying tooutflank, find a solution for
that which we can't find asolution for and ultimately, the
(28:43):
only antidote is to actuallycontrol what you can control.
But, but press into the serenityof God, knowing that most of
what it is that exists only hecan control, and he's pretty
good at it.
Joshua Johnson (28:57):
He's much better than I am. He's much better than
I indeed that's good. How muchis the book of Revelation
talking to us about our ourdiscipleship to Jesus, how we
then should emulate Jesus,embody Jesus, be like Jesus, and
then, how does that informdiscipleship and disciple making
(29:18):
in our lives?
Shane Wood (29:19):
Yeah, the answer to that would be, whether we
believe it or not, every chapterof all in all 404 verses of
revelation has that goal, andthat's even something that
that's hard for us to get past,because we're so caught up in
these predictive elements andthings that nature, but, but,
but, John is a pastor writing tohis congregation like we're
overhearing A congregate. We'reoverhearing a conversation in
(29:42):
Revelation, And his goal is thesame thing that all of us that
are pastors and disciple makersis, is to help guide them into a
deeper relationship with Jesusby becoming his hands and feet.
And so how does this impactdisciple making, the goal of the
disciple, and I've alreadyquoted this once, but in
Revelation. 14, three, there'sthis image of the 144,000 who
(30:03):
have the lamb's name and thename of God that's emblazoned on
their foreheads, but it saysthis fascinating phrase that
says, they follow the Lambwherever He goes. And it's one
of those things where I my sonand I, we spent this this
weekend together at a father sonretreat, and we were memorizing,
uh, Mark 1228, through 30. Youknow, what is the greatest
(30:25):
commandment, love, Lord of Godwith all your heart, soul, mind
and strength. And then on, onSunday night, um, after the
retreat, um, he was, he washaving just some struggles. He
was having some issues, um, andhe was using his words to hurt
other people as a way of dealingwith his own pain. And we were
sitting in the in the thegarage, and I was talking
through all of it with him, andfinally I just said, Hey, buddy,
(30:46):
listen, we spent all weekendlong memorizing this verse. And
I said, Do you remember theverse? And He quoted it word for
word. And I said, it's wonderfulthat you can memorize scripture,
but if you don't embody it,you're not actually doing what
the scripture is asking you todo, like, like, like. The Bible
is not just teaching us aboutthe Word of God. It is calling
(31:07):
to craft us into the Word of Goditself, like we are to do what
Christ did for us, put on put onflesh. You know, didn't grasp
equality with God, but, butinstead took on the flesh of us.
He's asking us to do the sameand invert and reverse, to not
grab onto the flesh of our sin,but to clothe ourselves with
(31:30):
Christ, as Colossians, threesays, to actually become the
hands and feet of Jesus, so thatwe can live up to the name that
Paul gives us in FirstCorinthians 12, and that's the
body of Christ. That's not ametaphor. That's a calling. You
Joshua Johnson (31:43):
said this something was written on their
foreheads, and they followed thelamb. It looked like a this is
my identity. This is who I am.
You could see it right here, myforehead, and I'm going to
follow this lamb. So theAntichrist may not be mentioned
in Revelation. Mark of the Beastis right? So this number is 666,
if I have that on my head, itseems like I'm following,
(32:05):
following something else. I'mfollowing the ways of the world,
or the ways of empire, whateverit is. I'm following something
different. How does our lifeflow from our identity? So
Shane Wood (32:17):
in Revelation, who you worship, you become. That's
the that's one of the key linesthat I bring out in the book
around, I think around chapterfive, because, because action
flows from identity. So I begin,I believe it's chapter four or
five on with a quote from StuartBriscoe, who once said, The more
you tell someone who they are,the less you have to tell them
(32:37):
what to do. And the reason whyis is because your action flows
from identity, and what worshipis doing is it's actually
crafting your identity. This iswhy idolatry is so dangerous. Is
because when you worshipsomething other than God, you
take on their characteristicsand qualities. And that happens,
(32:58):
that transference happensthrough worship. But the more
that we take on or the more thatwe press ourselves into Christ
Himself, worshiping God, theFather, the Son and the Spirit,
the more that we should betaking on their qualities, or,
as it says elsewhere in theBible, the fruit of the Spirit.
But worship is the conduitthrough which transformation
(33:19):
happens, which is ultimately whyworship is the place where the
war is fought.
Joshua Johnson (33:23):
So the fruits of what is happening in our lives,
the action of our lives, thenreflects back to us who we're
worshiping or what we'reworshiping. So what is
recognizing the fruit in ourlives, and not just like
throwing stones at somebodyelse, but actually doing that
self reflection of saying, Oh,what is the real fruit of my
(33:43):
life, not just the knowledge ofmy life, or not just the things
I know about, but what isactually coming out of my Yeah,
yeah.
Shane Wood (33:50):
In Revelation, what you do is not, not divorced from
who you are at all. As a matterof fact, that that's even the
conversation in chapters two andthree with the churches he goes,
here's your actions. But theproblem is, as you said, you
were following me, and you areright. The first place to start
is not down the pew. This isn'tone of those things where you
(34:10):
know, you you read the text andyou're like, Oh man, I wish you
know my friend was listening tothis sermon. It's or my wife,
or, you know, never been in thatsituation, never, no. But it is
the call of Revelation is tostare into the mirror of your
own soul and encounter Jesus inthat space. And what you always
will find is that God it willnot settle for you to stay the
(34:33):
same, but you will also findthat he is far more tender with
you than you are with yourself.
And but you're right, the actionis the entry point. I mean, if
we want to ask the question, Imean, this is a question we need
to ask as individuals andcollectively as a church, do our
actions match Christ? Because ifI'm going to take the first six
letters of the name Christianseriously, then it's not just
(34:56):
something that. I wear as a nametag, but it's something that
actually defines who I am andwhat, therefore what I do. So
Joshua Johnson (35:05):
then what it doesn't mean to be human? What
here
Shane Wood (35:08):
let me, let me tell you what it doesn't mean to be
human. What it means to be humandoes not mean to sin. And this
is a huge myth in the church,because people are like, Oh no,
to be human is to sin, and I'mlike, No, that's not true. If
that's the case, then Adam andEve weren't fully human until
Genesis three, like, like, evildidn't create Adam and Eve. And
(35:30):
if it to be human, if it meansto sin, then Jesus was never
human. If that's the case, thenwe're not actually saved. Like,
we have to remember that sin isthe imposter, not holiness?
Joshua Johnson (35:43):
Have we been flipped on his head? So is it
the pursuit of holiness? Is thatwhat it means to be human, or
what is it? Yeah,
Shane Wood (35:51):
I think that well, and I'm not, please don't hear
me playing semantic games, but Ido. I believe it is the pursuit
of God. Holiness will be abyproduct of our pursuit of him.
But what it means to be human isto actually to look like Jesus.
Jesus was the most fully human,true human, that we've ever
seen. As a matter of fact, he'sthe Irenaeus, who was a disciple
(36:16):
of Polycarp, who was a directdisciple of John, the apostle.
Irenaeus says that when it comesto the we were created in the
image of God, he said, we'veheard this in Word, but we've
never actually seen it untilChrist. So, so the image of God
we were created in in Genesis.
126, and 27 has been coveredwith with garments of skin, as
the Eastern theologians wouldsay, garments of skin from
(36:39):
Genesis 320, and 21 have coveredover the true image of God we
were created in. But Christ cameby putting on that skin, he came
to actually demonstrate to uswhat the image that we had been
divorced from or had marred whatit truly is so to be truly human
is to follow the Lamb whereverHe goes.
Joshua Johnson (37:04):
But it is a beautiful thing for me to sit
there and think, Okay, what itmeans to be human is Jesus, and
then try and then embody Jesus.
Because if we're made in theimage of God, this is it. He's
the image like he's the perfectimage that then we get to
follow. And so I then can knowwhat it means to be human, what
(37:27):
it means to truly live, what itmeans to be in this world. And
it's about being like Jesus. Andso if there are things in my
life that are not like Jesus. Igotta figure that out. I think
we all do. Take us back theninto this thinning the veil
conversation, heaven is closerthan we think. The kingdom is
(37:49):
have closer than we think. Godis closer than we think that the
veil is not thick. It's thinlike the world is a thin place.
It's not a thick place, right?
The the Spirit of God is, isthere with us, but we don't
recognize it. So then, how do welive if one revelation is not
just predictive, so it's notjust about where I go when I
(38:11):
die, and looking at heaven andmaking sure that the red heifers
are in Israel. And then we couldgo to heaven if the if it's not
just that. And then, if heavenis here with us, how do we
reconcile the fact that we haveheavenly things? Our enemy is
not flesh and blood, but it'sactually powers and
(38:32):
principalities. So it's allabout on the other side of the
veil, like, that's the realstuff. Like, what we're living
in is not really, it's it'shere, but it's real. So there's
a dichotomy of, like, am Iliving there, or am I living
here? Or, how do we merge thosetogether while we're living
life? Like, what does that looklike? No.
Shane Wood (38:53):
And that dichotomy that you're talking about is
created by by sin itself. Sin.
Sin doesn't just infest us. Itdoesn't just separate us from
God. It pushes us deeper intothe illusion that what we what
we see and perceive through thefilter of sin, is what we think
is real. And so the more thatyou confront the sin, which a
(39:14):
lot of the times, is wrapped upinto in your pain, the more that
the illusion itself starts todissipate, the more that you
start to to live life in a waythat God describes as as truly
is the way that life should belived. So things like forgiving
your enemy, things like prayingfor those that persecute you,
(39:35):
things like you know, it's themeek you know, in the the humble
and the weak that inherit thekingdom of God. I mean, it's,
it's, it's believing that thatactually is the way that it is.
The problem is, is that we havebecome so enmeshed in the
illusion that we actuallycontinue a to perpetuate sin in
our own lives, and B, tocontinue to function in the
(39:57):
world, in the. Way that is nottruly how the world functions,
but the only way that itfunctions, or we know how it
functions, is by, is by pressingdeeper into Christ himself. So
as we continue to shed these figleaves that are hiding us from
what is true, by pressing deeperinto light. Or, as you know,
Ephesians, five says that aschildren of light, we actually
(40:21):
begin to become brilliant, likethe light of Christ that is
shining on us. But the firstthing we need to do is wake up,
O sleeper, rise from the dead,and then the light of Christ can
shine on and through us. Soreally it's it's the dichotomy
only really is experiencedthrough the illusion of sin, but
the more that we peel away ourown sin, the more that we
(40:42):
realize that no god is a lotcloser and the enemy is a lot
more pervasive. And frankly, alot of the stuff that we see on
the surface is, you know, to usethe proverbial oceanic metaphor,
it's just the tip of theiceberg. This isn't, it isn't
really where the show ishappening.
Joshua Johnson (41:00):
I think a lot of people, their first identity is
human right is, I'm a sinner.
How does that then perpetuatethe illusion, oh,
Shane Wood (41:09):
it's a this. This is Oh, and this is, this may be one
of the more controversial thingsI say on here. This is one of
the things that's perpetuating alot of problems in our churches
today, is that most of ourworship services are centered on
that repetition of an identitystatement that pushes us deeper
into the illusion, more than itactually pushes us deeper to
(41:30):
God. So we will. There'svariations of it. We'll say
things like, man, God, I justdon't deserve to be in your
presence. But we think in doingthat, it actually exalts our His
love for us. But as a parent,I've had my youngest, who we
adopted. I had him once in amoment of contrition and a
(41:51):
moment of I'm sorry. He'sweeping, and he says, I don't
deserve to be your son. And Iimmediately fired off and went,
don't you ever say that to me? Isaid, it doesn't matter what you
do. You are my son, period. Anddon't ever say you don't deserve
that. And then I walked out ofthe room and thought, and yet I
say that to my Father in heavenall the time, thinking, This
(42:14):
draws me closer to him. Itdoesn't. It actually doesn't.
Now at the very beginning of thestarting line of your faith with
Jesus, there is a point whereyou have to actually admit, like
an addict, that you have aproblem. But if all that you
continue to repeat as you aremoving along the discipleship
journey, if all you keeprepeating is the mantras at the
(42:37):
beginning, you actually won'tget to run the race. Running the
race doesn't mean repeating thatyou are a sinner. It actually
starts. Whenever you're runningthe race, you start repeating
what God says about you. Youstart believing that what he
says is true, things like youare co heirs with Christ, that
you are my child, or Jesus evensays, and now I call you friend,
(43:00):
but we don't repeat those. And Ithink it's out of some weird,
twisted definition of humility,which is comparable more to a
divine depression than it isembracing who Christ not only
is, but who he says you are inhim.
Joshua Johnson (43:16):
I keep telling my wife, I'm amazing, I'm
awesome, and you're like, yeah,and you're so humble. She, you
know, she replies, I was like,Yes, I am humble. I know exactly
who I am, exactly who God is. IfI'm a co heir with Christ, I am
amazing, like I am there, I'mI'm with her. I'm a son of God.
I am a co heir with Christ, II'm sorry, I'm amazing. And
Shane Wood (43:41):
it's but it's but it's important. When you think
of the the parable The prodigalson, you see the collision of
the son going to the Fathersaying, I am worthless, and the
father saying, let's throw aparty and throw a robe around
you, because that's who youtruly are. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (43:58):
it's good. The one thing that you did say those
at the beginning of our journeywith Christ, right? You say,
like an addict, we have to say,we we have a problem. Yeah, I
see a lot of addicts go throughhealing and do a lot of great
things, but they continue tosay, I'm an addict, like they
continue to say, This is myidentity, even though they're
(44:19):
pursuing healing. What is so?
So, how do we reconcile that?
Yeah,
Shane Wood (44:24):
and I definitely would not critique methodologies
like aa that have clearly tappedinto something that is working.
What I will say is is that at acertain point, what the addict
is trying to say is that thetemptation is always real for
them to slip back into theirtheir habitual habits that led
them down the path todestruction to begin with, to to
(44:46):
get to a point where you don'tbelieve you have the capacity to
once again become addicted tosin or the medication of your
own pain or something like that,that would be just as terrifying
as you never embracing thoughthe new identities that Christ
gives you whenever you'reresurrected. So. There is a part
where the addict metaphor, Ithink, breaks down spiritually.
Because I think the more thatyou repeat spiritually the the
(45:08):
beginning of the addictsjourney, the harder it will be
for you to fully embrace thetransformation that comes with a
complete death and resurrectionin Christ.
Joshua Johnson (45:16):
So take us in the end of of the story. Where
is this all going like, what isRevelation headed to?
Shane Wood (45:23):
You know, Revelation 21 and 22 depicts this
unbelievable moment where allthat God had been excited about
comes out in full expression.
The way I describe it, I think,in the book, is, is God is
giddy. He is so excited. Andwhat makes him excited in
Revelation 21 is him being withus, and us being with him.
Where, where the veil is nolonger thin. The veil is
(45:46):
evaporated. There is no there isno veil. We have this full
expression of God. Or John 17three says, you know that
eternal life is to know God. Andso at the end of the book,
infinity of the veil, I wrestlewith this idea of first with me
and then the church at large.
But I'm like, am I worshiping aplace or a person? Am I more
(46:09):
excited about heaven or aboutthe intimacy with God? And
ultimately, whenever you seeRevelation, 21 and 22 describe
this closeness with God, theplace starts to fall into the
background, to the point whereI'm not if that's the location
where this intimacy can happen,sure, that's great, but the
intimacy is the goal, and theway I say it in the book is is,
(46:31):
but I don't want to wait untilthat moment to experience
knowing God. Matter of fact, Iwant to try to get to know him
so well down here that when Iget to heaven, I'm not even
really surprised by much,because I've tasted so much of
who he is. The
Joshua Johnson (46:46):
ultimate goal then is, is intimacy with God,
and we're living our life wherewe could be intimate with God,
then we can embody Jesus, who isthe ultimate one, who was
intimate with God. He didn't doanything unless the Father in
Heaven did it like he was sointimate with the Father.
That's, you know, that's how helived his life. And so then we
(47:09):
get to emulate that. And then sowe get to be be intimate here
and now in our life, and as weembody Jesus, then that means
that we could be intimate in ourrelationships with our families
and loved ones, that we couldactually experience communion
with each other and move from asense of loneliness to a place
(47:31):
of pure intimacy, which what
Shane Wood (47:34):
a beautiful picture.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Joshua Johnson (47:37):
Shane, what is your hope for this book, for
thinning the veil? What do youhope that readers will get from
this?
Shane Wood (47:43):
I think my hope is, is that they will encounter
revelation differently. Wouldbe, would be a one of the goals,
you know, to see it not as it'skind of funny. It's almost like,
whenever I say, No, no,Revelation is about Jesus. It's
almost like sometimes people arelike, disappointed. It's like,
don't, don't be disappointedbecause you get more of Jesus,
(48:03):
like allow it to be somethingthat satiates a thirst that you
may not even know, that you needquenched. But I think also
secondarily, I would say, I hopeit challenges readers of the
Bible to read it differently. Ithink biblical study at its best
is when you are unearthing thetext, but then you're allowing
the text to unearth you at thesame time. It's a it's a mutual
(48:26):
reading, where you aren't justreading the Word, you're
allowing the word to read you.
And I would hope that throughthis book, that that a that
readers will have seen me do itfirst, like I'm going to allow
the text, hopefully, what thebook is is me allowing myself to
be on Earth for everyone to see,and that that takes a little bit
(48:47):
of levels and layers ofvulnerability that I don't
always know, that I actuallyhave the capacity to engage but
but then b it would be to tohopefully invite them to do the
Same with their communities andwith their time of study, with
the word, if
Joshua Johnson (49:04):
you go back to your 21 year old self, what
advice would you give?
Shane Wood (49:07):
Be patient. I really would. I was in such a rush in
my early 20s that I ended upcourting a relationship with
worry and angst that ultimatelyI thought at the time in it did
well, I should say it this way,it produced addictions into in
(49:27):
me that were sociallyacceptable, like workaholism and
like degrees. But I would justtell myself, be patient. It'll
all unfold. Anything
Joshua Johnson (49:38):
you've been reading or watching lately you
recommend, oh,
Shane Wood (49:41):
man, great question.
I read very broadly, very Iusually try to find this is
going to be really weird.
Usually, I always try to findsomething that's way off base
that like that out of my normalstudy that that I read and so.
Right now I'm reading thebiography, Autobiography of
(50:04):
Nikola Tesla, who I found to bejust this fascinating figure
that, at this point, gets lostin a lot of car dealerships, but
he's just a fascinating figurethat's been stirring stuff in
me. And then I'm also readingthe underground. What is it? The
underground letters? I thinkthat's what it's called by
Fyodor Dostoevsky, which Ialways try to be reading
(50:25):
something by some of thefictional literary giants over
the last couple 100 years. Sothose two are grabbing my heart
right now.
Joshua Johnson (50:34):
That's good. How can people go get thinning the
veil and anywhere else you'dlike to point people to?
Shane Wood (50:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's available. Well, it's
available right now for preorder, but it'll be available
may 20, anywhere, Amazon, IVP,christianbooks.com, Barnes and
Noble wherever you can go andthen. But then I also do. I have
a website that offers hundredsof hours of free audio and video
(51:00):
lecture from from my studieshere at Ozark that they let me
put up online for free. So, andthat's Shane J wood.com so
Joshua Johnson (51:08):
thank you to Ozark for for that absolutely
let you put that up, and thankyou for doing that. So that's so
anybody can go Shane J wood.comand go see and just seep
yourself in hundreds of hours oflectures, and just go into a
little hole cave for a while,and then he'll come out
(51:29):
different. Hopefully, hopefullyit'll come out different. That'd
be good. Well, Shane, thank youfor this conversation. I really,
really enjoyed. You actuallytaken away some of this veil of
Revelation, that we actuallyhave been veiled, that we can't
see it clearly, that we thinkit's that it's a text, that it
actually isn't. And it is notjust a predictive future text,
(51:51):
but it is about Jesus, and ittells us how we could follow and
embody Jesus in incredible ways,that we could actually be
disciples of him in the midst ofpower and Empire, that it's not
just about the Empire that'shere today and now, but it is
about this cosmic unfoldingwhere Satan is trying to take
(52:14):
over, but God is more powerfulthat this light is here. It's
going to shine, it's going toshine bright, and we can
actually embody that, and wecould become intimate with God.
It's fantastic conversation.
Loved it. Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me. Iappreciate it.
Unknown (52:42):
You
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