May 30, 2025 • 54 mins
In this conversation with Emanuel Prinz, we dig into his latest research, exploring what actually catalyzes movements, the kinds of leaders and teams that sustain them, and what blocks them from taking root. We’ll talk about the personal and spiritual qualities of movement catalysts, why reproducibility matters more than charisma, and how partnering with God, rather than simply following a method—is essential to see lasting fruit. Along the way, we wrestle with questions of multiplication, DNA, and the risks of bottleneck leadership. If you care about genuine spiritual movement, if you want to see communities transformed and leaders multiplied, not just in theory but in practice, you won’t want to miss this episode. So join us because this conversation is packed with wisdom and hard-won insight for anyone longing to shift culture in meaningful ways.
DR. EMANUEL PRINZ has partnered with God to start a movement in North Africa and speaks from personal experience. He has researched kingdom Christian movements across the globe for fifteen years. Currently, he serves ministries worldwide as an expert movement consultant, coach, trainer, and researcher, facilitating their progression toward movements. Through his Exponential Disciple-Making and MOVES Coaching trainings, more than 12,000 leaders in over fifty countries have been equipped.
Prinz has taught at Columbia International University, the European School for Culture and Theology, and Bethany Global University. He is the author of Movement Catalysts and numerous articles in journals such as Missiology, Evangelical Missions Quarterly, Global Missiology, Journal of the Evangelical Missiological Society, Mission Frontiers, as well as in Christianity Today. Above all, he seeks to live as the Father’s beloved.
He blogs at www.catalyticleadership.info.
Emanuel's Book:
What Actually Starts Movements
Emanuel's Recommendation:
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Emanuel Prinz (00:00):
The desire of effective catalyst for God, for
(00:04):
God himself, to know him moredeeply, to love him more deeply,
to follow him more closely, is astronger desire than wanting to
see ministry fruit so they seeGod first and above all. You.
Man.
Joshua Johnson (00:31):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact wecould make. We long to see the
body of Christ look like Jesus.
Today, I'm joined by EmmanuelPrins. Emanuel's journey began
as a young seminary studentunexpectedly captivated by a
single lecture on peoplemovements. That moment set him
on a path that's taken him fromrefugee centers in Germany to
(00:53):
unengaged people groups in Sudanand eventually into the heart of
global research. What setsEmmanuel apart isn't just the
depth of his experience. It'sthe way he blends careful, data
driven research with arelentless hunger for God's
presence and a commitment toreal, reproducible
transformation, instead of QuickFix formulas or chasing ministry
trends, Emmanuel has pouredyears into understanding what
(01:17):
truly sparks and sustainsmovements where disciples make
disciples, leaders, developleaders, and churches plant
churches, often in the world'smost challenging environments.
In this conversation, we diginto his latest research
exploring what actuallycatalyzed movements, the kinds
of leaders and teams thatsustain them, and what blocks
them from taking root. We'lltalk about the personal and
(01:39):
spiritual qualities of movementcatalysts, why reproducibility
matters more than charisma, andhow partnering with God rather
than simply following a methodis essential to see lasting
fruit along the way, we wrestlewith questions of
multiplication, DNA and therisks of bottleneck. Leadership,
if you care about genuinespiritual movement, if you want
to see communities transformedand leaders multiplied, not just
(02:02):
in theory, but in practice, youwon't want to miss this. So join
us as we find wisdom and insightfor anyone longing to shift
culture in meaningful ways. Hereis my conversation with Emmanuel
Prins. Emmanuel, welcome toshifting culture. So excited to
have you on. Thanks for joiningme.
Emanuel Prinz (02:26):
Well, thank you for having me. Joshua, I look
forward to this time you can askme anything. You will get an
honest answer.
Joshua Johnson (02:33):
Sounds good? We love honest answers and good
conversation. So we're gonnahave a good conversation around
movements, movement blockersthat don't actually catalyze
movement, movement boosters thatdo catalyze movement. So because
we're gonna have a movementconversation, let's define
movement. What is a movement?
What are we talking about? Whatare we trying to catalyze?
Emanuel Prinz (02:57):
So when I speak to a broader audience,
typically, I say a movement iswhere disciples make disciples,
and leaders develop leaders andchurches plant churches. If you
are interested in a moretechnical definition, then it
includes the element of rapidreplication to the fourth
generation or beyond, and inmultiple streams. So these are
(03:21):
the kinds of movements that Ihave looked into with my
research. And when we're goingto talk about movements, these
are the dimension of movementsthat we have in mind. And when
we talk about catalysts, itspeaks of the primary influencer
and pioneer who who ignited thiskind of movement. Give
Joshua Johnson (03:40):
me a little bit of your background and your
story of how you got fascinatedwith movements, got into this
place of of researching andwanting to see movements
catalyzed.
Emanuel Prinz (03:51):
So I'm it's 1994 I'm a young seminary students
first semester introduction tomissiology, and our missiology
professor gives us one lecture,4550 minutes on what was known
as the time, as peoplemovements. And I'm just
absolutely intrigued. It's thefirst time in my life I heard
(04:13):
here the world movement in aChristian context. And I'm
thinking, why hasn't everymissionary that has come to our
church talked about movements.
Why am I hearing about this now?
I was so fascinated that I droveto a university library that I
knew has every book onmissiology and theology
(04:33):
published in the Englishlanguage, and I found out about
a handful titles that containedmovement in the title, borrowed
them, photocopied every page,and that was basically my
preparation, my most significantpreparation, for field ministry
in Sudan among an unengagedpeople group, and informed our
(04:55):
strategy when we first started.
So that was to put it intocontext. Before David Garrison
booklet on church plantingmovements was first published in
1998 we were totally unaware ofthat at the time. So
Joshua Johnson (05:09):
what was going on? Then, when you went into a
totally unengaged people groupand you started thinking about
movement dynamics, what washappening? What did you discover
as you started to work thesethings out?
Emanuel Prinz (05:23):
Well, the first thing I need to mention is a
prayer. And I don't say this,you know, just as to preface it
the Christian way, I was quite ashy young man at the time, so
not the break through the wallsguy at all. And so I said, Lord,
I'm ready. I want to see this.
I'm committing myself to you,but I honestly have no clue how
you could ever use me. And sothat was my prayer journey. I
(05:48):
took small steps forward withoutreally having the confidence
that God could ever use me foranything significant. And yet, I
took these small steps ofobedience, as much as I had
clarity, you know, starteddiscipling people in my home
church started reaching Muslimsin Germany, in asylum homes
where refugee seekers were wereliving, and just these small
(06:11):
steps. And so I prayed at onepoint, say, Father, you gave
Paul this blank promise,basically, when he was in
Ephesus, where, where he wasjust getting started, and God
says, Paul. He says two thingsto Paul in a vision or dream in
the night, he says, Paul, I havea big people in this city, and
(06:33):
that that time, there wasn't anybreakthrough yet. So this, this
was a prophetic word, and no oneis going to harm you. Just, you
know, just keep ministering. AndI said, when I read this, I
said, Father, this is Paul. Yougave him something like this. If
Paul needed it, I needed 10times more. Would you grant me
something like this? And thevery same night, I did have a
(06:57):
dream, and in that dream, Godrevealed to me a part a certain
region and showed me that, andhe, he revealed to me that he
would write church history anddo something significant in that
part of Sudan. So that informed,my well informed is not is
wrong. That was the basis of myprayers from that day on, and
(07:20):
that that was the basis of ourteam's vision. It was God said,
there is going to be a movement.
So there will be a movement. Wedon't know if, in five years we
we thought more, and it wouldtake us 20 years of sowing on
the ground, you know, sowinggospel seeds, talking about
Jesus, doing compassionministry, serving the felt needs
(07:44):
of the people. And maybe in 20years, this at the moment, so
unreceptive Muslim people wouldmaybe open up after 20 years,
that was sort of our horizon.
Prayer
Joshua Johnson (07:56):
was was really important, that you knew that
God promises this movement, whatwas happening then? We
Emanuel Prinz (08:03):
always ask the question, if we're going to see
a movement in 20 years, what dowe need to do now? And one thing
that was evident at thebeginning, we will only see a
movement if we win over the keyinfluences, the man in
authority, the gatekeepers ofthat society, and that is where
(08:26):
the political leaders, they werecalled sheikhs, the village
chiefs, that were the religiousleaders, the imams in the
mosque. And because we're herein the Civil War context, there
was also a rebel army. And sobasically, we needed to have the
favor of the higher level,higher ranking officers of the
rebel army. And so we went intothis region that God had showed
(08:49):
me in a dream and tried tobefriend these, I mean, Muslim
societies, all men, right, thesemen in authority, and not only
befriend them, but introduceourselves from the first
encounter as as people of faith.
So, you know, they knew whitepeople. There were NGOs in the
(09:10):
country, but most of these otherwhite people were secular. So we
wanted to make it clear from thebeginning, we don't want it.
Didn't want to sneak that insort of at a later point that we
are followers of Jesus. So wewould meet, for example, a group
of Shays and say, you know,we're here because we want to
serve you and your communities,and we serve God. So we would
(09:33):
like to talk with you, you know,What? What? What are your
biggest needs? What is on yourheart to do you for your people,
and then we can talk, you know,how we might serve you and
collaboratively build somethingfor you. So first encounter,
first introductions, and we hadnot given them gospel, but we
had basically revealed ourspiritual identity, winning the
(09:56):
the influences of. Society overand starting with the So
beginning with the end in mind,basically you say, you know if
it's going to be a movement in20 years, that means now we need
to befriend the key influencesof society. Then after we
befriend them, or as we befriendthem, we reveal our spiritual
(10:17):
identity. And after we have donethat, that leads automatically
to spiritual conversations. Andthere we were very, you know,
free, although this is againCivil War, there's big brother
that's watching. We need to beaware of that. But how can Jesus
be good news to these whichmeans, basically, we try to find
(10:40):
a receptor oriented languagethat wasn't offensive to Muslims
that spoke their religiousjargon, you know, used their
concept they believed in alreadyspoke about their prophets that
they believed in, Moses,Abraham, David and so forth, and
then Built the bridge to beJesus, and then found ways.
Well, how is Jesus? Good news tothem. So these were some of the
(11:05):
key building stones at the earlystages. And
Joshua Johnson (11:10):
it started to build. Things started to happen.
Now, let's zoom out so you seesome some movement happening.
What is happening around theworld? Like, what is the state
of movements today like? So thatwas almost 30 years ago. What is
the state of movements aroundthe world look like today?
Emanuel Prinz (11:30):
We see more and more movements. I write about
the detail to numbers figures inthe book. I haven't internalized
all of them, but basically, youknow, if the reports are
accurate, we may have todayabout 115 Jesus followers who
follow Jesus in a movementalexpression of Christianity. And
(11:55):
this number grows exponentially.
So we're at a threshold where,you know every again, depending
on you count, where you count,but probably at least every
seventh evangelical in the worldyou know follows Jesus in the
context of of a nationaldisciple making or church
planting movement. So this is,this is significant, and growth
(12:15):
continues. I
Joshua Johnson (12:19):
mean, that is a as a big number one in seven
that are following Jesus withina movement. And so one of the
ways that we should probablyfigure out like so what is
happening, what is going on, andwhat actually catalyzes
movements? So what was yourrole? I know that you started to
research movements to see whatactually works within movements,
(12:43):
and how do we catalyze thosethings and what stops them? What
What were you doing? What wasyour research? And what kinds of
movements Did you research?
Emanuel Prinz (12:52):
The Journey behind the research, in brief,
is that, after we sawbreakthrough, that's how it
works in the Christian world,wherever there's success,
there's interest. So, you know,others asked me to mentor me. My
organizational leaders asked meto create a training, and I was
very happy to do that. We did asa team, evaluate regularly, to
(13:15):
distill, you know, what were theprinciples behind this? How was
God at work, and what were ourbest practices. But I wasn't
content with that, because thatmight have been the right
strategy for a Muslim peoplegroup in Sudan. But something
else, you know, it wouldn't beprobably as helpful in other
(13:35):
places, was my thinking. So thatset me on a journey and created
the interest in me, and I wasjust so curious, and wanted to
know, what are the factorsacross the globe that ignite
movements, what are factors thatstart movements, that boost
them, and what are blockers insome other places where
(13:59):
movements are not happening atall, or are hampered by various
hindering factors. So that setme on a journey. And when I say
me, I gathered a research team.
So we were I was joined by someworld class researchers from,
you know, top universities,specialist and qualitative
research, a specialist inquantitative research, and in
(14:21):
the project that is the basisfor the book, we looked in 147
movements and at least 200 to 22different people groups across
the six megacultures in theworld. So we wanted this to be a
large sample. And we wanted thisto be a representative sample
(14:43):
from basically, simply speaking,all continents as
Joshua Johnson (14:48):
you were getting this research in what were some
of the the first findings, thethings that you're you were
saying that these are some ofthe factors that are happening
around the. World, around theglobe and these different
movements. Well,
Emanuel Prinz (15:03):
what stood out Joshua was the remarkable
similarity of effective movementcatalysts of the set of
qualities that all movementcatalysts share in common. So
when you look into movements,God uses a variety of different
(15:25):
methods to start movements. Youknow, DMM disciple making
movements is, is, is very, verywidespread, for example. But
then there are others. You know,there is T 40, there is four
fields. There is people whorefer to CPM as as Garrison
describes it in his books. Andthere are other hybrid, hybrid
(15:45):
methods, where people say, Ilearned a little from that. I
learned a little from this, andthen we applied it to our unique
contact. But a variety ofdifferent methods. Wherever you
see a movement, you will find acertain person, a leader, a man
or woman of God, that ischaracterized by certain
(16:08):
qualities, and to find that insuch clarity, frankly, you know,
I, as a researcher, I had ahunch that there would be
Something like this, but I wasstunned. I was stunned. So I
will illustrate this. So if youJoshua and I, you know, met
like, you know, three or four ofthese, and we sat down in a
(16:31):
coffee shop and had a chat, theywould all have their unique
personalities, or personal, youknow, idiosyncrasies, and they
would have their culturaldistinctives, but say there's
one from, you know, a village inrural Kenya, there is one from a
small island in Indonesia, thereis one from a metropolis in
(16:52):
India. All of them would share aset of personality traits and
character traits and a set ofministry competencies. I call
them the catalytic qualities,and and, and have them in common
at a at a significant level. Andthe other thing is, we also did
(17:14):
a control group study. In otherwords, we also researched
comparative ministry situationsand their Pioneer leaders that
were either in exactly the samecontext as where the movement
occurs, or a proximity andsimilar context. And so we could
distinguish and say, what is itthat distinguishes effective
(17:38):
catalyst from non catalyst? Sothat is really the the number
one finding that stood out to methat wherever you see a
movement, you will find acertain type of catalyst.
Joshua Johnson (17:49):
If people are are listening to this there, I
think there's a couple ofquestions that people are
listening one like, what arethese characteristics? Do I have
them if I want to catalyzemovement, is that something that
I possess? And so give me someof these characteristics.
Emanuel Prinz (18:07):
So there are certain personality qualities.
I'll just share them with you,sort of in a short list, and
then, then feel free you cantell us where you want to go
deeper and they include, youknow, one of them is radical
learning. They're radicallearners. They go into every
situation to learn something newwith the expectation. So, you
(18:27):
know, I would go into thisconversation here with you with
the expectation that I'm goingto learn with you and from you.
Innovation is another one, adrive to achieve. There is high
level of conscientiousness inthem. There is a personal
agency, in other words, aconviction that really life is
shaped largely by the decisionsand choices that we make. And
(18:51):
then there are traits likeagreeableness and persistence.
So these would be in thecategory of personality
qualities. Now, I know mostpeople expect certain spiritual
qualities, and they're there aswell, but I want to emphasize it
is not just certain spiritualqualities. There is the
(19:12):
personality as well as thesocial what we call social
influence competency. So whatincludes the some of the
spiritual qualities, the firstone is a deep hunger for God.
What is this surprising, andmaybe not surprising to some, is
that the desire of effectivecatalyst for God, for God
(19:38):
himself, to know him moredeeply, to love him more deeply
to follow him more closely. Is astronger desire than wanting to
see ministry fruit. So they seeGod first and above all, they
listening to God. That is aposture. You could describe it
as a posture in their heart,active, listening to God on on a
(19:59):
regular. Daily basis, and, ofcourse, at Big junctions,
especially, but as a really, asa regular practice, there is
expectant faith. So that issimilar to the story, which is
my personal story. And I findthis interesting in story after
story. You know, they seek God,particularly for revelation, for
(20:20):
their own ministry and theMinistry of their teams. And
they seek God for His heart andand his plans for the people
group or the population segmentthat they are called to. And in
many cases, they report that Godgives them revelation, through
prophetic words, through dreams,through Scripture. You know,
(20:41):
it's through a internaldiscernment process where they
all pray together. The avenuesare different, but God does
speak and so on that they buildexpectant faith. God is going to
break through. We will see amovement. God is going to do it,
and then others spiritualqualities include confidence in
(21:03):
local disciples and confidencein the Bible as the primary
discipleship tool. And lastly, atangible love, a tangible,
tangibly expressed love for thepeople that they are serving. So
not just the motivation to saywe love them, and therefore we
share Jesus with them, but theyhave the ability to express a
(21:27):
love in tangible ways, so thatpeople do experience being loved
by them. Shall I also quicklywalk through the social
influence competencies and justmention them?
Joshua Johnson (21:36):
Yeah, I mentioned them. That would be
helpful catalyst. Have
Emanuel Prinz (21:39):
an inspiring personality. Don't have to
expire explain, explain that indetail. They know how to inspire
a shared vision with their teamsand colleagues. They have the
skill to influence othersbeliefs. So they don't merely
share their testimony, but theyreally shape the beliefs of
(22:00):
others, there is a strongelement of assertiveness in
them, and they know how todisciple in transformational
ways. And lastly, they're veryempowering as leaders. So they
empower disciples from early onand their teammates and partners
as well.
Joshua Johnson (22:17):
Are these catalysts? Are you looking at
individuals? Are there anydistinctives within teams that
are boosting movements,catalyzing movements? Is it
something where you need oneindividual like this, or is it a
team dynamic? What does it looklike for movements to start? The
Emanuel Prinz (22:37):
answer, Joshua, it's both ends. It does need a
tin opener or a can opener, Iguess you say in America, in
order to open a can. And acatalyst is kind of a can
opener, you can't open a canwith a fork or with a spoon. It
just doesn't work. However, allcatalysts work with teams and or
(23:02):
partners, close in closecollaboration. So everyone has a
different approach, but most ofthem work with rather small
teams. The pattern that I havedetected is that they ask
themselves the question, whatkind of gifting is needed for a
(23:24):
pioneering situation. And thattypically includes, you know,
that apostolic element, whichoften is in the effective
catalyst. It needs theevangelistic element. It needs a
teaching disciple makingelement. It needs the prayer
element. And many of them, notall of them, report that there
(23:44):
is also a prophetic element thatthat speaks God's perspective
into the ministry. So in otherwords, I think many of them, all
of them, work with a team, butmany of them try to keep the
team small, so it doesn't, youknow, become an entity. We've
both worked overseas, right? AndI have experienced that a team
(24:07):
can become big and become like asocial compound, where so much
energy that just keeps it goesinto maintaining the social
compound, rather than thecatalytic effect into the
community.
Joshua Johnson (24:20):
As movement starts, leaders are raised up.
You have indigenous leaders,your discovery groups and things
are happening. There's movementhappening. Do these catalysts
help sustain the movement longterm, or are there other
character qualities or qualitiesneeded later, in later stages of
(24:42):
movements that the catalysts mayneed to bring in for some more
support? Well, that's
Emanuel Prinz (24:49):
a multifaceted question. There are stages, and
if we're talking about anexternal catalyst or catalytic
team, certain. Suddenly, therole of them changes over time
and the emphasis so I think manyof us are aware, for example, of
(25:09):
a simple model that depicts, aswell, the mall level model,
where, at initial stage, youknow the catalyst, have the
initial catalytic impact, andand as soon as they are the
first disciples, they model whatlife in Christ means. So the the
upward component, how to relateto God, but also the the the
(25:31):
horizontal component, theministry context, they do model
that, but then they go quicklyinto sort of the background mode
and rather assist the firstgroup of disciples to do the
ministry themselves, the watchin the background, and at some
at some point, start graduallypulling out. So if we want to
(25:53):
relate this to the essentialcatalytic qualities, I think the
two that are most relevant hereis transformational disciple
making. So that means howeffective catalyst exhibit they
are engaged in disciple makingin ways that changes both the
character as well as thespiritual practices of
(26:17):
disciples. And then the secondone is empowering. They empower
the they empower the youngdisciples. So even you know the
baby Christians, they empowerthem from the first day, which
means it's not the externalcatalyst who is in charge. It is
the very first nucleus of theyoung baby church that is in
(26:42):
charge. You know, it's yourpeople group, it's your
movement, it's your task, it'syour God given assignment to
reach your community. We arehere to assist you in the
process of doing that. So thatis a very strongly empowering
process that starts on day one.
It's not like, oh, we give thesegroup of people, you know, a
chance to grow up to, to becomefirm and strong in their faith,
(27:06):
and then they start theministry. No, no, actually, we
challenge them from the pointof, as they journey to Christ,
even to start sharing whatthey're what they're discovering
about Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (27:19):
I know of people as they're trying to catalyze
movement. The multiplication ofleaders and disciples is really
it's kind of difficult tomultiply out to the next
generation. They hold on toolong. Maybe they do something.
What are some multiplication?
What's multiplication? DNA,like, what's the DNA of
(27:41):
multiplication to multiplyleaders and disciples into next
generations so it continues? One
Emanuel Prinz (27:50):
thing I've learned from the research is
that there are four dimensionsof disciple making that need to
be considered to ensure that thedisciple making process is
actually reproducible. Four M's,the messenger, the message, the
methods and the materials. Solet's run through them very
(28:14):
briefly. First of all, we talkedabout modeling just a moment
ago. The messenger himself needsto reproduce himself or
themselves, and that means,typically, two elements, the
lifestyle is attractive. It's amodel that people want to
follow. It's attractive to thosewho are outside of the kingdom
(28:36):
they see their lives and say,Oh, that is the kind of life I
would like to have as well.
Related to that is that the lifethey live is visible. So, you
know, this only works when I'min your living room and you're
in my living room, and we dosend things together. This
doesn't happen, you know, ifit's a segregated discipleship
meeting where we meet togetherin a separate room for one hour
(29:00):
a week. So share, sharing oflife and sharing a life that is
an attractive one, that's onethe message needs to be
reproducible, which, in mostcases, has three elements, the
MA, the message needs to appealto felt needs. Oh, you know, I
have these issues in my life.
(29:22):
I'm aware of it. Oh, really,what this guy is sharing could
be an answer for that. Secondly,it is often in story form. We
all love stories, and storiesare easy to tell. And then a
third aspect is that it can bepassed on. It's it's simple,
it's a simple message. So in ourmovement in Sudan, one of the
(29:44):
village chiefs stood up and oneday in front of, you know, 50
others, and said, brothers, oh,this is and he was referring to
the gospel message. He said, Youknow, honestly, the old system.
And he referred to Islam, Inever really under. Understood
it. But this is a simple system.
This is a simple message. Iunderstand it. So he was ready
to, you know, able to articulateit and pass it on. So the
(30:07):
messenger, the message, themethods and basically, the key
question is to ask for acatalyst, the way you and I do
ministry together. Could youreplicate what we're doing
together here, without me in anew place? If the answer is no,
(30:27):
then it's not simple andreproducible enough. Then we
need to simplify things further.
And then finally, the methods.
And again, the key is, are themethods, methods pass honorable.
So in other words, when let'sassume for a moment, I'm
discipling you, and I could comeup with a fancy discipleship
(30:50):
course, for example, which worksperfectly for you. But the
question is, I have in mind notonly you as my disciple. I'm
thinking, who is Joshua gonnadisciple? Can he use the
resource that we're using forour discipleship relationship?
Can he use that same resource todisciple his next generation
disciples? If it's no, then Ithen we need to pick something
(31:14):
else that is pass onable, thatis simple enough so that you
could use it for you, for yourown network and for your own
disciple making method. So fourdimensions, the messenger, the
message, the methods and thematerials need to be simple and
pass on double enough so thatdisciple making becomes
reproducible.
Joshua Johnson (31:37):
All right, you said catalyst. Some of these
personal attributes areattractiveness. They have an
attractive personality. Peoplewant to follow them and be
around them. How does that work?
When you want to try to makethings simple, to be able to
pass on you're saying some ofthese methods, can you replicate
what I have been doing? Somepeople are like, I don't have
(32:01):
the type of character that thiscatalyst has, so I'm not
confident in passing it along.
How do we deal with the actuallike character attributes of
catalysts, and then maybe theirfirst followers and people other
(32:21):
down the line that don't havethe same types of qualities. How
do those get passed on? Well,
Emanuel Prinz (32:29):
that is a good point. Joshua, and when I first
started out as a discipler, Ididn't get that right. You know,
so big picture that we had thefirst group of of people who
made a commitment the firsthouse church, and they would
have lots of questions. Ofcourse, they do. And what would
they do? They would come to meas their discipler and bring
(32:50):
these questions. And of course,you know, I had studied
theology, and I had been readingthe Bible for 10 plus years
every day, so I had good answersto most of their questions. But
then one day I realized, oh myEmmanuel, you are the bottleneck
of this. You know, as more andmore people are coming into the
(33:11):
kingdom, do you want all of themto come to you and you will
answer all of their questions?
And that realization broughtabout a paradigm shift. So one
radical change I made is Istopped answering all questions,
and instead I would point themto Scripture. So, you know,
let's say someone had a conflictwith his brother. I would say,
All right, you know, how aboutyou read a Matthew 18, these
(33:34):
verses, this, this the, you knowwhat Jesus talks about,
reconciliation. And then you askJesus what your role is in your
conflict with your brother, andwhat you can do from your end to
re establish the relationshipand resolve the conflict. So one
answer to your question is,you're exactly right. It mustn't
(33:57):
all be carried in the catalyst.
The catalyst must bind Thaidisciples to the Bible and not
to himself. That is one. Theother is that a catalyst is as
much as is culturallyappropriate, very transparent.
(34:18):
So I mean Case in point here Itold you at the beginning of our
conversation how in my mid 20s,I was a shy young man. I had no
courage, I had no boldness, Iwas fearful. I was just lacked
self confidence, and I lackedconfidence that came from my
walk with the Lord. I justlacked this. So I mentioned this
(34:41):
to you, you know, and catalystshave the freedom to not wear a
mask or be a persona, butbasically transparently, tell
disciples how they deal withfear. And so you know, all
right, I understand you'reafraid. Uh, you know, to share,
(35:02):
you want to share with yourparents about what you found in
Jesus, and I understand you areafraid. I want to tell you I've
been in the same situation.
Let's talk to to Jesus aboutthis. You know, let's just
expect that specifically he willstrengthen your courage. Let's
go, go quickly to Joshua, whowas also fearful, and listen
(35:23):
what God said to him. And maybeyou find something that God
speaks also to your heart inthis situation. So here it, you
know, it's kind of a trianglesituation. The catalyst is a
role model and example andinspiring, but at the same time,
that's not the only link. Theother link is that the new
(35:44):
disciple in his relationshipwith God looks to God for
provision, for what's he needs,and then is grounded in the
Bible. So
Joshua Johnson (35:54):
you move it towards the Bible. And one of
the the things and the factorsyou talk about movement is
there's a discovery basedapproach. And so, how do you
help people? What is discoveryfor people? Why does discovery
work? And how do we keep it inyou know, tied to the Bible.
Emanuel Prinz (36:15):
Why? Why does discovery work? We know from
adult education, that we owntruth that we have discovered
for ourselves much more deeplythan we own truth that is taught
to us. And that's a that's auniversal, uh, principle, you
(36:36):
know, that is true for for forall cultures. The second is what
we just actually covered here,because the discovery process
doesn't tie the new disciple tohis discipler, to a preacher who
is charismatic on the pulpit, onon, on, on Sunday morning, or
(36:57):
whenever, or to a set ofdoctrines of our particular
church, but it grounds the newdisciple in the Bible, in God's
word, directly. And that is adynamic. I mean, honestly, I
was, I was part of, was in achurch just very recently, and
(37:18):
and talked to an elder gentlemanand and, and just realized he
hadn't learned a thing about howto go to the Bible and and
interpret it for himself. He hasrelied on devotionals Sunday
mornings and and whatnot all hislife. But you know, to answer
simple what we call inductiveBible study questions no one had
(37:42):
ever equipped him, and there heis at the age of 78 you know,
having this as a disciple for 60years with discovery from even
before they make a commitment toChrist. People are grounded in
the in the scriptures and learnthese very basic but simple
enough discovery questions like,what do we learn about God? What
(38:05):
do we learn about people? Isthere an example positive that
we can follow or a negative thatwe can avoid? How can we follow
this so that is significantlyinfluencing shaping the
spiritual formation of thedisciples in a positive way. As
another aspect that is inherentin the discovery model is how
(38:31):
the faith spreads. So let'scontrast it, maybe for a moment,
with the attraction model. Sothere is seeker, John, your or
my friend, and we say, come toour church, or even come to our
home group, whatever you callit, small group, discipleship
group, you know, come and joinus. What happens? Well, he may,
(38:54):
you know, be one for Christ anddecide to follow Christ, great.
But what is the potential inthis situation that got lost so
in discipleship group approach,I would say, hey, that is great,
John, and I'm ready to go toScripture with you and find
(39:15):
answers to your question. Nowone question to you, John, who
in your network, your family,your extended family, your
friends, might be interested orbenefit from the things that we
have been discovering together.
He may mention one name or twoname or several names. Well, how
(39:35):
about if you invited these guysto your home, and you did the
same what we have been doinghere, and boom, we jump into a
new social network. You know,had I invited John to my home
group or my Sunday morningservice, we would have not
tapped into these networks.
Joshua Johnson (39:58):
You've done all this research and said. These
are the factors. And somebodyreading this might say, all I
have to do is I just have tofollow a step, A, B, C, and
we're going to have a movement.
But one of the things that youdo say as well is that it's not
a particular method. We can'tjust follow, you know these
(40:19):
steps, but there is a guidingprinciples, and we have followed
the lead of the Holy Spirit, asthe Holy Spirit is doing
something in that place. How dowe become more principle based
in the way that we work, ratherthan a methodological approach
to just doing a, b and c to makeit work. The subtitle
Emanuel Prinz (40:47):
of the book is partnering with God for Kingdom
multiplication. What actuallystarts movement? Partnering with
God for Kingdom multiplication.
So let me apply this maybe to toour call that we're having,
yeah. So I would say to theaudience, oh no, by no means I'm
saying everything that theresearch found, everything I
(41:08):
write in the book, everythingJoshua and I discussing here,
turn around and do it one onone. No, no, absolutely not.
What would I say? And that is ananswer to your question. Joshua,
I would say, after you'velistened to our podcast here,
pause and say, Father, what ofthis is for me? And maybe
(41:30):
something becomes clear. And ifyou feel compelled and say,
there's value for this, youknow, for my ministry team, or
for my group of closestcolleagues, then why don't you
take that to them, and you dohave a group conversation again,
with the prayer and thediscernment to say for our
unique context, for our uniquechallenges, what of this would
(41:53):
help us break through Growthbarriers, and then anything that
goes shows, be absolutely,radically obedient to what he
shows us, follow through withit. You know, don't give up
after you have done it twice andit doesn't work. You know, give
only up after you've tried atleast 50 times, and it still
(42:15):
doesn't work. But it is what Godis showing you and how God is
inspiring you to take steps,because he is, I mean, he is
with us, right? We believe that.
And I know, as I say this, webelieve this. We all have the
(42:35):
cognitive belief in our heads.
The question is, you know, howpractically does that translate
to my lifestyle or affect mylifestyle? So I start the day
Joshua, literally every morning,my call it devotions, my time
with God, focused on God in thequiet of the morning, and I, i i
(42:58):
Hold, hold on to God's hand. SoI sit there here, you know, and
it expresses to me that I wantto step into this day holding
the Father's hand. I will gowith him into every situation
now that includes an element ofpreparedness. So one of the
prayers I pray every morning isthat I say, Father, what is most
(43:21):
essential for me today. Andtypically I write down one or
two things before I even boot mycomputer and start my work day.
So that gives me direction forthe day. But then again, the
expression to say, now I havemeetings. Now I meet people. Now
(43:42):
I engage in certain projects ortasks or planning meetings.
Again, you know, with theexpectation, Father, I look to
you, there are 100 good thingsthat I could be doing help me to
discern what is most essentialfor me, for us right now that
Joshua Johnson (44:02):
shifts and changes everything, if we could
get it from the cognitive brainside of our knowledge into a
lived, embodied experience withGod that we hear from him, we
obey Him. We walk in step withhim. That requires an intimacy
with God that will actually thencatalyze movements we partner
(44:25):
with him, which I think is abeautiful thing. And it's only
going to take that. I mean, it'sgoing to take intimacy. It's
going to take a daily walk withHim. And it's not just even you
know, 15 minutes in the morningand I had your time with God,
and then I do what I want therest of the day. It is being
(44:47):
with him, having conversationswith him, being attuned to his
voice. It's going to be key. SoI love that. Emmanuel, if you
could talk to your readers, whatdo you hope people get from what
actually. Starts movements. Whatdo you hope that this, this
research in this book, will dofor the world? One thing is what
Emanuel Prinz (45:08):
we just talked about. I would hope that even
while they read through thebook, they begin to develop more
of that lifestyle of activepartnering with God every day,
and I have deliberately designedthe book you will you will see
it when you read it in such away that it takes not just
(45:30):
reading through it, but it takespausing and reflecting and and
and listening prayer to say,what of of the wealth of these
great thoughts is, is for me andis for us as as a ministry team.
So that would be one a second.
Is that i My desire is it wouldinspire people to go deeper in
(45:52):
God and cultivate their hungerfor God, more than any hunger
for ministry success. A thirddesire is we talked about this
at the beginning of this call,is, if it's true that wherever
you see a movement, you willfind a certain type of catalytic
(46:12):
leader. Well, the good news is,none of us can manufacture a
movement, but it is in ourhands, and God has placed it in
our hands to cultivate ourpersonal growth. And the good
news Joshua is that all thesecatalytic qualities can be
(46:33):
developed if we justintentionally work on them. So
there is hope, even when I hearthe list or read the list in the
book and say, Oh yeah, I'm goodat this. Great. But then there
are five other things where Ithink, no, I'm not really good
at this. But if that's the case,good. If you're not good at it
today, you become good at it ifyou just start developing it and
(46:57):
practicing it deliberately sothat is a call to personal
growth and development in thejourney toward ministry
fruitfulness. Because othershave said that before. You know.
I quote the leadership guru,John Maxwell, for example, who
says, you know your leadershipis determined by who you are.
(47:17):
And that is true, your ministryfruitfulness, wherever is the
per determined by who you are.
Our movement, ministryfruitfulness is determined by
who we are. So a greatencouragement and call to to
place more emphasis on personalgrowth and development, as Paul
(47:40):
actually exhorts Timothy andsays, Timothy, you know, watch,
watch over yourself, take careof yourself and the teaching in
other words, your teachingministry. And he Paul says, you
know, Timothy, you come first,you know, make sure your life
heads in the right direction.
And your then your teachingministry does as well, and then
(48:02):
you will save those you that youserve basically.
Joshua Johnson (48:08):
Emmanuel, I have a couple quick questions at the
end. One, if you could go backto your 21 year old self, what
advice would you give?
Emanuel Prinz (48:16):
I would Yeah, a lot, actually, but I think one
that stands out to me Joshua isdo less but better as a 20 year
old, one, you know, I wastotally driven. I worked 100
hours a week. My teammates andfriends would say, Emmanuel, you
drove yourself relentlessly. AndI would say, do less but better.
(48:43):
And what I mean with this isliterally work less. Hours, run
less projects, be involved withless people, reduce all of that
drastically and have time topause and reflect and evaluate
and adapt prayerfully. I thinkthat is probably the number one
(49:08):
advice, if I could do it again,starting out at 21 that I would
tell myself, and that would put,put my life on, on, on an even
better trajectory.
Joshua Johnson (49:20):
That's good.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately, you could
recommend,
Emanuel Prinz (49:24):
um, related to this, or just in general,
Joshua Johnson (49:26):
anything, anything,
Emanuel Prinz (49:29):
well, I have always a pile of books, really,
I'm leading at the same time,but I be because I believe you
we are kind of in the same tribeof you know, CPM and DMM, I
recently met Alan Hirsch, who isalso bringing a movemental
approach to to to the faith andto the church. His focus is more
(49:54):
on the church in the globalnorth, and I have been
benefiting immensely from. Thebook, The Forgotten ways
reactivating. What's thesubtitle, apostolic movements.
So that's that's on my bedsidetable right now, and I highly
recommend it. I'm I'm readingthrough it a second time now.
Yes,
Joshua Johnson (50:13):
the Forgotten ways is a is a fantastic book. I
highly recommend that as well.
But let's go out and get whatactually starts movements,
partnering with God for kingdom,multiplication. Emmanuel, how
can people go and get that book?
And where else would you like topoint people to? I trust
Emanuel Prinz (50:31):
that we will find the link the links in what
you're sending out. Joshua, butyeah, launch day for what
actually starts movement is May29 you find it on amazon.com, or
Amazon in wherever you live inyour country. I also want to
point you to my blog andactually a new podcast that I'm
(50:53):
launching at the same time asthe book. You find it on sub
stack my name. You can searcheither my name, Emmanuel Prince,
or movement catalysts. And Iinvite you to to subscribe, if
you like to message mepersonally or get in touch, or I
can serve you and your ministry.
My website is www, catalyticleadership dot info, catalytic
(51:18):
leadership. Dot info,
Joshua Johnson (51:22):
perfect. Well.
Emmanuel, thank you for thisconversation. Thank you for
walking us through what actuallystarts movements and who these
catalytic leaders are. Whatcharacteristics do they have?
How they rely on God, theyfollow the lead of the spirits,
what it looks like to then makedisciples that would then
multiply, and how that happens,how that goes about. Thanks for
(51:44):
for diving into these things. Itwas a fantastic conversation.
I'm sure a lot of people got alot of out of it. There's a lot
of meat in there. So thank youfor this. It was great, and
Emanuel Prinz (51:58):
it's been an absolute pleasure doing this
with you. Joshua, you.
The desire of effective catalyst for God, for
(00:04):
God himself, to know him moredeeply, to love him more deeply,
to follow him more closely, is astronger desire than wanting to
see ministry fruit so they seeGod first and above all. You.
Man.
Joshua Johnson (00:31):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact wecould make. We long to see the
body of Christ look like Jesus.
Today, I'm joined by EmmanuelPrins. Emanuel's journey began
as a young seminary studentunexpectedly captivated by a
single lecture on peoplemovements. That moment set him
on a path that's taken him fromrefugee centers in Germany to
(00:53):
unengaged people groups in Sudanand eventually into the heart of
global research. What setsEmmanuel apart isn't just the
depth of his experience. It'sthe way he blends careful, data
driven research with arelentless hunger for God's
presence and a commitment toreal, reproducible
transformation, instead of QuickFix formulas or chasing ministry
trends, Emmanuel has pouredyears into understanding what
(01:17):
truly sparks and sustainsmovements where disciples make
disciples, leaders, developleaders, and churches plant
churches, often in the world'smost challenging environments.
In this conversation, we diginto his latest research
exploring what actuallycatalyzed movements, the kinds
of leaders and teams thatsustain them, and what blocks
them from taking root. We'lltalk about the personal and
(01:39):
spiritual qualities of movementcatalysts, why reproducibility
matters more than charisma, andhow partnering with God rather
than simply following a methodis essential to see lasting
fruit along the way, we wrestlewith questions of
multiplication, DNA and therisks of bottleneck. Leadership,
if you care about genuinespiritual movement, if you want
to see communities transformedand leaders multiplied, not just
(02:02):
in theory, but in practice, youwon't want to miss this. So join
us as we find wisdom and insightfor anyone longing to shift
culture in meaningful ways. Hereis my conversation with Emmanuel
Prins. Emmanuel, welcome toshifting culture. So excited to
have you on. Thanks for joiningme.
Emanuel Prinz (02:26):
Well, thank you for having me. Joshua, I look
forward to this time you can askme anything. You will get an
honest answer.
Joshua Johnson (02:33):
Sounds good? We love honest answers and good
conversation. So we're gonnahave a good conversation around
movements, movement blockersthat don't actually catalyze
movement, movement boosters thatdo catalyze movement. So because
we're gonna have a movementconversation, let's define
movement. What is a movement?
What are we talking about? Whatare we trying to catalyze?
Emanuel Prinz (02:57):
So when I speak to a broader audience,
typically, I say a movement iswhere disciples make disciples,
and leaders develop leaders andchurches plant churches. If you
are interested in a moretechnical definition, then it
includes the element of rapidreplication to the fourth
generation or beyond, and inmultiple streams. So these are
(03:21):
the kinds of movements that Ihave looked into with my
research. And when we're goingto talk about movements, these
are the dimension of movementsthat we have in mind. And when
we talk about catalysts, itspeaks of the primary influencer
and pioneer who who ignited thiskind of movement. Give
Joshua Johnson (03:40):
me a little bit of your background and your
story of how you got fascinatedwith movements, got into this
place of of researching andwanting to see movements
catalyzed.
Emanuel Prinz (03:51):
So I'm it's 1994 I'm a young seminary students
first semester introduction tomissiology, and our missiology
professor gives us one lecture,4550 minutes on what was known
as the time, as peoplemovements. And I'm just
absolutely intrigued. It's thefirst time in my life I heard
(04:13):
here the world movement in aChristian context. And I'm
thinking, why hasn't everymissionary that has come to our
church talked about movements.
Why am I hearing about this now?
I was so fascinated that I droveto a university library that I
knew has every book onmissiology and theology
(04:33):
published in the Englishlanguage, and I found out about
a handful titles that containedmovement in the title, borrowed
them, photocopied every page,and that was basically my
preparation, my most significantpreparation, for field ministry
in Sudan among an unengagedpeople group, and informed our
(04:55):
strategy when we first started.
So that was to put it intocontext. Before David Garrison
booklet on church plantingmovements was first published in
1998 we were totally unaware ofthat at the time. So
Joshua Johnson (05:09):
what was going on? Then, when you went into a
totally unengaged people groupand you started thinking about
movement dynamics, what washappening? What did you discover
as you started to work thesethings out?
Emanuel Prinz (05:23):
Well, the first thing I need to mention is a
prayer. And I don't say this,you know, just as to preface it
the Christian way, I was quite ashy young man at the time, so
not the break through the wallsguy at all. And so I said, Lord,
I'm ready. I want to see this.
I'm committing myself to you,but I honestly have no clue how
you could ever use me. And sothat was my prayer journey. I
(05:48):
took small steps forward withoutreally having the confidence
that God could ever use me foranything significant. And yet, I
took these small steps ofobedience, as much as I had
clarity, you know, starteddiscipling people in my home
church started reaching Muslimsin Germany, in asylum homes
where refugee seekers were wereliving, and just these small
(06:11):
steps. And so I prayed at onepoint, say, Father, you gave
Paul this blank promise,basically, when he was in
Ephesus, where, where he wasjust getting started, and God
says, Paul. He says two thingsto Paul in a vision or dream in
the night, he says, Paul, I havea big people in this city, and
(06:33):
that that time, there wasn't anybreakthrough yet. So this, this
was a prophetic word, and no oneis going to harm you. Just, you
know, just keep ministering. AndI said, when I read this, I
said, Father, this is Paul. Yougave him something like this. If
Paul needed it, I needed 10times more. Would you grant me
something like this? And thevery same night, I did have a
(06:57):
dream, and in that dream, Godrevealed to me a part a certain
region and showed me that, andhe, he revealed to me that he
would write church history anddo something significant in that
part of Sudan. So that informed,my well informed is not is
wrong. That was the basis of myprayers from that day on, and
(07:20):
that that was the basis of ourteam's vision. It was God said,
there is going to be a movement.
So there will be a movement. Wedon't know if, in five years we
we thought more, and it wouldtake us 20 years of sowing on
the ground, you know, sowinggospel seeds, talking about
Jesus, doing compassionministry, serving the felt needs
(07:44):
of the people. And maybe in 20years, this at the moment, so
unreceptive Muslim people wouldmaybe open up after 20 years,
that was sort of our horizon.
Prayer
Joshua Johnson (07:56):
was was really important, that you knew that
God promises this movement, whatwas happening then? We
Emanuel Prinz (08:03):
always ask the question, if we're going to see
a movement in 20 years, what dowe need to do now? And one thing
that was evident at thebeginning, we will only see a
movement if we win over the keyinfluences, the man in
authority, the gatekeepers ofthat society, and that is where
(08:26):
the political leaders, they werecalled sheikhs, the village
chiefs, that were the religiousleaders, the imams in the
mosque. And because we're herein the Civil War context, there
was also a rebel army. And sobasically, we needed to have the
favor of the higher level,higher ranking officers of the
rebel army. And so we went intothis region that God had showed
(08:49):
me in a dream and tried tobefriend these, I mean, Muslim
societies, all men, right, thesemen in authority, and not only
befriend them, but introduceourselves from the first
encounter as as people of faith.
So, you know, they knew whitepeople. There were NGOs in the
(09:10):
country, but most of these otherwhite people were secular. So we
wanted to make it clear from thebeginning, we don't want it.
Didn't want to sneak that insort of at a later point that we
are followers of Jesus. So wewould meet, for example, a group
of Shays and say, you know,we're here because we want to
serve you and your communities,and we serve God. So we would
(09:33):
like to talk with you, you know,What? What? What are your
biggest needs? What is on yourheart to do you for your people,
and then we can talk, you know,how we might serve you and
collaboratively build somethingfor you. So first encounter,
first introductions, and we hadnot given them gospel, but we
had basically revealed ourspiritual identity, winning the
(09:56):
the influences of. Society overand starting with the So
beginning with the end in mind,basically you say, you know if
it's going to be a movement in20 years, that means now we need
to befriend the key influencesof society. Then after we
befriend them, or as we befriendthem, we reveal our spiritual
(10:17):
identity. And after we have donethat, that leads automatically
to spiritual conversations. Andthere we were very, you know,
free, although this is againCivil War, there's big brother
that's watching. We need to beaware of that. But how can Jesus
be good news to these whichmeans, basically, we try to find
(10:40):
a receptor oriented languagethat wasn't offensive to Muslims
that spoke their religiousjargon, you know, used their
concept they believed in alreadyspoke about their prophets that
they believed in, Moses,Abraham, David and so forth, and
then Built the bridge to beJesus, and then found ways.
Well, how is Jesus? Good news tothem. So these were some of the
(11:05):
key building stones at the earlystages. And
Joshua Johnson (11:10):
it started to build. Things started to happen.
Now, let's zoom out so you seesome some movement happening.
What is happening around theworld? Like, what is the state
of movements today like? So thatwas almost 30 years ago. What is
the state of movements aroundthe world look like today?
Emanuel Prinz (11:30):
We see more and more movements. I write about
the detail to numbers figures inthe book. I haven't internalized
all of them, but basically, youknow, if the reports are
accurate, we may have todayabout 115 Jesus followers who
follow Jesus in a movementalexpression of Christianity. And
(11:55):
this number grows exponentially.
So we're at a threshold where,you know every again, depending
on you count, where you count,but probably at least every
seventh evangelical in the worldyou know follows Jesus in the
context of of a nationaldisciple making or church
planting movement. So this is,this is significant, and growth
(12:15):
continues. I
Joshua Johnson (12:19):
mean, that is a as a big number one in seven
that are following Jesus withina movement. And so one of the
ways that we should probablyfigure out like so what is
happening, what is going on, andwhat actually catalyzes
movements? So what was yourrole? I know that you started to
research movements to see whatactually works within movements,
(12:43):
and how do we catalyze thosethings and what stops them? What
What were you doing? What wasyour research? And what kinds of
movements Did you research?
Emanuel Prinz (12:52):
The Journey behind the research, in brief,
is that, after we sawbreakthrough, that's how it
works in the Christian world,wherever there's success,
there's interest. So, you know,others asked me to mentor me. My
organizational leaders asked meto create a training, and I was
very happy to do that. We did asa team, evaluate regularly, to
(13:15):
distill, you know, what were theprinciples behind this? How was
God at work, and what were ourbest practices. But I wasn't
content with that, because thatmight have been the right
strategy for a Muslim peoplegroup in Sudan. But something
else, you know, it wouldn't beprobably as helpful in other
(13:35):
places, was my thinking. So thatset me on a journey and created
the interest in me, and I wasjust so curious, and wanted to
know, what are the factorsacross the globe that ignite
movements, what are factors thatstart movements, that boost
them, and what are blockers insome other places where
(13:59):
movements are not happening atall, or are hampered by various
hindering factors. So that setme on a journey. And when I say
me, I gathered a research team.
So we were I was joined by someworld class researchers from,
you know, top universities,specialist and qualitative
research, a specialist inquantitative research, and in
(14:21):
the project that is the basisfor the book, we looked in 147
movements and at least 200 to 22different people groups across
the six megacultures in theworld. So we wanted this to be a
large sample. And we wanted thisto be a representative sample
(14:43):
from basically, simply speaking,all continents as
Joshua Johnson (14:48):
you were getting this research in what were some
of the the first findings, thethings that you're you were
saying that these are some ofthe factors that are happening
around the. World, around theglobe and these different
movements. Well,
Emanuel Prinz (15:03):
what stood out Joshua was the remarkable
similarity of effective movementcatalysts of the set of
qualities that all movementcatalysts share in common. So
when you look into movements,God uses a variety of different
(15:25):
methods to start movements. Youknow, DMM disciple making
movements is, is, is very, verywidespread, for example. But
then there are others. You know,there is T 40, there is four
fields. There is people whorefer to CPM as as Garrison
describes it in his books. Andthere are other hybrid, hybrid
(15:45):
methods, where people say, Ilearned a little from that. I
learned a little from this, andthen we applied it to our unique
contact. But a variety ofdifferent methods. Wherever you
see a movement, you will find acertain person, a leader, a man
or woman of God, that ischaracterized by certain
(16:08):
qualities, and to find that insuch clarity, frankly, you know,
I, as a researcher, I had ahunch that there would be
Something like this, but I wasstunned. I was stunned. So I
will illustrate this. So if youJoshua and I, you know, met
like, you know, three or four ofthese, and we sat down in a
(16:31):
coffee shop and had a chat, theywould all have their unique
personalities, or personal, youknow, idiosyncrasies, and they
would have their culturaldistinctives, but say there's
one from, you know, a village inrural Kenya, there is one from a
small island in Indonesia, thereis one from a metropolis in
(16:52):
India. All of them would share aset of personality traits and
character traits and a set ofministry competencies. I call
them the catalytic qualities,and and, and have them in common
at a at a significant level. Andthe other thing is, we also did
(17:14):
a control group study. In otherwords, we also researched
comparative ministry situationsand their Pioneer leaders that
were either in exactly the samecontext as where the movement
occurs, or a proximity andsimilar context. And so we could
distinguish and say, what is itthat distinguishes effective
(17:38):
catalyst from non catalyst? Sothat is really the the number
one finding that stood out to methat wherever you see a
movement, you will find acertain type of catalyst.
Joshua Johnson (17:49):
If people are are listening to this there, I
think there's a couple ofquestions that people are
listening one like, what arethese characteristics? Do I have
them if I want to catalyzemovement, is that something that
I possess? And so give me someof these characteristics.
Emanuel Prinz (18:07):
So there are certain personality qualities.
I'll just share them with you,sort of in a short list, and
then, then feel free you cantell us where you want to go
deeper and they include, youknow, one of them is radical
learning. They're radicallearners. They go into every
situation to learn something newwith the expectation. So, you
(18:27):
know, I would go into thisconversation here with you with
the expectation that I'm goingto learn with you and from you.
Innovation is another one, adrive to achieve. There is high
level of conscientiousness inthem. There is a personal
agency, in other words, aconviction that really life is
shaped largely by the decisionsand choices that we make. And
(18:51):
then there are traits likeagreeableness and persistence.
So these would be in thecategory of personality
qualities. Now, I know mostpeople expect certain spiritual
qualities, and they're there aswell, but I want to emphasize it
is not just certain spiritualqualities. There is the
(19:12):
personality as well as thesocial what we call social
influence competency. So whatincludes the some of the
spiritual qualities, the firstone is a deep hunger for God.
What is this surprising, andmaybe not surprising to some, is
that the desire of effectivecatalyst for God, for God
(19:38):
himself, to know him moredeeply, to love him more deeply
to follow him more closely. Is astronger desire than wanting to
see ministry fruit. So they seeGod first and above all, they
listening to God. That is aposture. You could describe it
as a posture in their heart,active, listening to God on on a
(19:59):
regular. Daily basis, and, ofcourse, at Big junctions,
especially, but as a really, asa regular practice, there is
expectant faith. So that issimilar to the story, which is
my personal story. And I findthis interesting in story after
story. You know, they seek God,particularly for revelation, for
(20:20):
their own ministry and theMinistry of their teams. And
they seek God for His heart andand his plans for the people
group or the population segmentthat they are called to. And in
many cases, they report that Godgives them revelation, through
prophetic words, through dreams,through Scripture. You know,
(20:41):
it's through a internaldiscernment process where they
all pray together. The avenuesare different, but God does
speak and so on that they buildexpectant faith. God is going to
break through. We will see amovement. God is going to do it,
and then others spiritualqualities include confidence in
(21:03):
local disciples and confidencein the Bible as the primary
discipleship tool. And lastly, atangible love, a tangible,
tangibly expressed love for thepeople that they are serving. So
not just the motivation to saywe love them, and therefore we
share Jesus with them, but theyhave the ability to express a
(21:27):
love in tangible ways, so thatpeople do experience being loved
by them. Shall I also quicklywalk through the social
influence competencies and justmention them?
Joshua Johnson (21:36):
Yeah, I mentioned them. That would be
helpful catalyst. Have
Emanuel Prinz (21:39):
an inspiring personality. Don't have to
expire explain, explain that indetail. They know how to inspire
a shared vision with their teamsand colleagues. They have the
skill to influence othersbeliefs. So they don't merely
share their testimony, but theyreally shape the beliefs of
(22:00):
others, there is a strongelement of assertiveness in
them, and they know how todisciple in transformational
ways. And lastly, they're veryempowering as leaders. So they
empower disciples from early onand their teammates and partners
as well.
Joshua Johnson (22:17):
Are these catalysts? Are you looking at
individuals? Are there anydistinctives within teams that
are boosting movements,catalyzing movements? Is it
something where you need oneindividual like this, or is it a
team dynamic? What does it looklike for movements to start? The
Emanuel Prinz (22:37):
answer, Joshua, it's both ends. It does need a
tin opener or a can opener, Iguess you say in America, in
order to open a can. And acatalyst is kind of a can
opener, you can't open a canwith a fork or with a spoon. It
just doesn't work. However, allcatalysts work with teams and or
(23:02):
partners, close in closecollaboration. So everyone has a
different approach, but most ofthem work with rather small
teams. The pattern that I havedetected is that they ask
themselves the question, whatkind of gifting is needed for a
(23:24):
pioneering situation. And thattypically includes, you know,
that apostolic element, whichoften is in the effective
catalyst. It needs theevangelistic element. It needs a
teaching disciple makingelement. It needs the prayer
element. And many of them, notall of them, report that there
(23:44):
is also a prophetic element thatthat speaks God's perspective
into the ministry. So in otherwords, I think many of them, all
of them, work with a team, butmany of them try to keep the
team small, so it doesn't, youknow, become an entity. We've
both worked overseas, right? AndI have experienced that a team
(24:07):
can become big and become like asocial compound, where so much
energy that just keeps it goesinto maintaining the social
compound, rather than thecatalytic effect into the
community.
Joshua Johnson (24:20):
As movement starts, leaders are raised up.
You have indigenous leaders,your discovery groups and things
are happening. There's movementhappening. Do these catalysts
help sustain the movement longterm, or are there other
character qualities or qualitiesneeded later, in later stages of
(24:42):
movements that the catalysts mayneed to bring in for some more
support? Well, that's
Emanuel Prinz (24:49):
a multifaceted question. There are stages, and
if we're talking about anexternal catalyst or catalytic
team, certain. Suddenly, therole of them changes over time
and the emphasis so I think manyof us are aware, for example, of
(25:09):
a simple model that depicts, aswell, the mall level model,
where, at initial stage, youknow the catalyst, have the
initial catalytic impact, andand as soon as they are the
first disciples, they model whatlife in Christ means. So the the
upward component, how to relateto God, but also the the the
(25:31):
horizontal component, theministry context, they do model
that, but then they go quicklyinto sort of the background mode
and rather assist the firstgroup of disciples to do the
ministry themselves, the watchin the background, and at some
at some point, start graduallypulling out. So if we want to
(25:53):
relate this to the essentialcatalytic qualities, I think the
two that are most relevant hereis transformational disciple
making. So that means howeffective catalyst exhibit they
are engaged in disciple makingin ways that changes both the
character as well as thespiritual practices of
(26:17):
disciples. And then the secondone is empowering. They empower
the they empower the youngdisciples. So even you know the
baby Christians, they empowerthem from the first day, which
means it's not the externalcatalyst who is in charge. It is
the very first nucleus of theyoung baby church that is in
(26:42):
charge. You know, it's yourpeople group, it's your
movement, it's your task, it'syour God given assignment to
reach your community. We arehere to assist you in the
process of doing that. So thatis a very strongly empowering
process that starts on day one.
It's not like, oh, we give thesegroup of people, you know, a
chance to grow up to, to becomefirm and strong in their faith,
(27:06):
and then they start theministry. No, no, actually, we
challenge them from the pointof, as they journey to Christ,
even to start sharing whatthey're what they're discovering
about Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (27:19):
I know of people as they're trying to catalyze
movement. The multiplication ofleaders and disciples is really
it's kind of difficult tomultiply out to the next
generation. They hold on toolong. Maybe they do something.
What are some multiplication?
What's multiplication? DNA,like, what's the DNA of
(27:41):
multiplication to multiplyleaders and disciples into next
generations so it continues? One
Emanuel Prinz (27:50):
thing I've learned from the research is
that there are four dimensionsof disciple making that need to
be considered to ensure that thedisciple making process is
actually reproducible. Four M's,the messenger, the message, the
methods and the materials. Solet's run through them very
(28:14):
briefly. First of all, we talkedabout modeling just a moment
ago. The messenger himself needsto reproduce himself or
themselves, and that means,typically, two elements, the
lifestyle is attractive. It's amodel that people want to
follow. It's attractive to thosewho are outside of the kingdom
(28:36):
they see their lives and say,Oh, that is the kind of life I
would like to have as well.
Related to that is that the lifethey live is visible. So, you
know, this only works when I'min your living room and you're
in my living room, and we dosend things together. This
doesn't happen, you know, ifit's a segregated discipleship
meeting where we meet togetherin a separate room for one hour
(29:00):
a week. So share, sharing oflife and sharing a life that is
an attractive one, that's onethe message needs to be
reproducible, which, in mostcases, has three elements, the
MA, the message needs to appealto felt needs. Oh, you know, I
have these issues in my life.
(29:22):
I'm aware of it. Oh, really,what this guy is sharing could
be an answer for that. Secondly,it is often in story form. We
all love stories, and storiesare easy to tell. And then a
third aspect is that it can bepassed on. It's it's simple,
it's a simple message. So in ourmovement in Sudan, one of the
(29:44):
village chiefs stood up and oneday in front of, you know, 50
others, and said, brothers, oh,this is and he was referring to
the gospel message. He said, Youknow, honestly, the old system.
And he referred to Islam, Inever really under. Understood
it. But this is a simple system.
This is a simple message. Iunderstand it. So he was ready
to, you know, able to articulateit and pass it on. So the
(30:07):
messenger, the message, themethods and basically, the key
question is to ask for acatalyst, the way you and I do
ministry together. Could youreplicate what we're doing
together here, without me in anew place? If the answer is no,
(30:27):
then it's not simple andreproducible enough. Then we
need to simplify things further.
And then finally, the methods.
And again, the key is, are themethods, methods pass honorable.
So in other words, when let'sassume for a moment, I'm
discipling you, and I could comeup with a fancy discipleship
(30:50):
course, for example, which worksperfectly for you. But the
question is, I have in mind notonly you as my disciple. I'm
thinking, who is Joshua gonnadisciple? Can he use the
resource that we're using forour discipleship relationship?
Can he use that same resource todisciple his next generation
disciples? If it's no, then Ithen we need to pick something
(31:14):
else that is pass onable, thatis simple enough so that you
could use it for you, for yourown network and for your own
disciple making method. So fourdimensions, the messenger, the
message, the methods and thematerials need to be simple and
pass on double enough so thatdisciple making becomes
reproducible.
Joshua Johnson (31:37):
All right, you said catalyst. Some of these
personal attributes areattractiveness. They have an
attractive personality. Peoplewant to follow them and be
around them. How does that work?
When you want to try to makethings simple, to be able to
pass on you're saying some ofthese methods, can you replicate
what I have been doing? Somepeople are like, I don't have
(32:01):
the type of character that thiscatalyst has, so I'm not
confident in passing it along.
How do we deal with the actuallike character attributes of
catalysts, and then maybe theirfirst followers and people other
(32:21):
down the line that don't havethe same types of qualities. How
do those get passed on? Well,
Emanuel Prinz (32:29):
that is a good point. Joshua, and when I first
started out as a discipler, Ididn't get that right. You know,
so big picture that we had thefirst group of of people who
made a commitment the firsthouse church, and they would
have lots of questions. Ofcourse, they do. And what would
they do? They would come to meas their discipler and bring
(32:50):
these questions. And of course,you know, I had studied
theology, and I had been readingthe Bible for 10 plus years
every day, so I had good answersto most of their questions. But
then one day I realized, oh myEmmanuel, you are the bottleneck
of this. You know, as more andmore people are coming into the
(33:11):
kingdom, do you want all of themto come to you and you will
answer all of their questions?
And that realization broughtabout a paradigm shift. So one
radical change I made is Istopped answering all questions,
and instead I would point themto Scripture. So, you know,
let's say someone had a conflictwith his brother. I would say,
All right, you know, how aboutyou read a Matthew 18, these
(33:34):
verses, this, this the, you knowwhat Jesus talks about,
reconciliation. And then you askJesus what your role is in your
conflict with your brother, andwhat you can do from your end to
re establish the relationshipand resolve the conflict. So one
answer to your question is,you're exactly right. It mustn't
(33:57):
all be carried in the catalyst.
The catalyst must bind Thaidisciples to the Bible and not
to himself. That is one. Theother is that a catalyst is as
much as is culturallyappropriate, very transparent.
(34:18):
So I mean Case in point here Itold you at the beginning of our
conversation how in my mid 20s,I was a shy young man. I had no
courage, I had no boldness, Iwas fearful. I was just lacked
self confidence, and I lackedconfidence that came from my
walk with the Lord. I justlacked this. So I mentioned this
(34:41):
to you, you know, and catalystshave the freedom to not wear a
mask or be a persona, butbasically transparently, tell
disciples how they deal withfear. And so you know, all
right, I understand you'reafraid. Uh, you know, to share,
(35:02):
you want to share with yourparents about what you found in
Jesus, and I understand you areafraid. I want to tell you I've
been in the same situation.
Let's talk to to Jesus aboutthis. You know, let's just
expect that specifically he willstrengthen your courage. Let's
go, go quickly to Joshua, whowas also fearful, and listen
(35:23):
what God said to him. And maybeyou find something that God
speaks also to your heart inthis situation. So here it, you
know, it's kind of a trianglesituation. The catalyst is a
role model and example andinspiring, but at the same time,
that's not the only link. Theother link is that the new
(35:44):
disciple in his relationshipwith God looks to God for
provision, for what's he needs,and then is grounded in the
Bible. So
Joshua Johnson (35:54):
you move it towards the Bible. And one of
the the things and the factorsyou talk about movement is
there's a discovery basedapproach. And so, how do you
help people? What is discoveryfor people? Why does discovery
work? And how do we keep it inyou know, tied to the Bible.
Emanuel Prinz (36:15):
Why? Why does discovery work? We know from
adult education, that we owntruth that we have discovered
for ourselves much more deeplythan we own truth that is taught
to us. And that's a that's auniversal, uh, principle, you
(36:36):
know, that is true for for forall cultures. The second is what
we just actually covered here,because the discovery process
doesn't tie the new disciple tohis discipler, to a preacher who
is charismatic on the pulpit, onon, on, on Sunday morning, or
(36:57):
whenever, or to a set ofdoctrines of our particular
church, but it grounds the newdisciple in the Bible, in God's
word, directly. And that is adynamic. I mean, honestly, I
was, I was part of, was in achurch just very recently, and
(37:18):
and talked to an elder gentlemanand and, and just realized he
hadn't learned a thing about howto go to the Bible and and
interpret it for himself. He hasrelied on devotionals Sunday
mornings and and whatnot all hislife. But you know, to answer
simple what we call inductiveBible study questions no one had
(37:42):
ever equipped him, and there heis at the age of 78 you know,
having this as a disciple for 60years with discovery from even
before they make a commitment toChrist. People are grounded in
the in the scriptures and learnthese very basic but simple
enough discovery questions like,what do we learn about God? What
(38:05):
do we learn about people? Isthere an example positive that
we can follow or a negative thatwe can avoid? How can we follow
this so that is significantlyinfluencing shaping the
spiritual formation of thedisciples in a positive way. As
another aspect that is inherentin the discovery model is how
(38:31):
the faith spreads. So let'scontrast it, maybe for a moment,
with the attraction model. Sothere is seeker, John, your or
my friend, and we say, come toour church, or even come to our
home group, whatever you callit, small group, discipleship
group, you know, come and joinus. What happens? Well, he may,
(38:54):
you know, be one for Christ anddecide to follow Christ, great.
But what is the potential inthis situation that got lost so
in discipleship group approach,I would say, hey, that is great,
John, and I'm ready to go toScripture with you and find
(39:15):
answers to your question. Nowone question to you, John, who
in your network, your family,your extended family, your
friends, might be interested orbenefit from the things that we
have been discovering together.
He may mention one name or twoname or several names. Well, how
(39:35):
about if you invited these guysto your home, and you did the
same what we have been doinghere, and boom, we jump into a
new social network. You know,had I invited John to my home
group or my Sunday morningservice, we would have not
tapped into these networks.
Joshua Johnson (39:58):
You've done all this research and said. These
are the factors. And somebodyreading this might say, all I
have to do is I just have tofollow a step, A, B, C, and
we're going to have a movement.
But one of the things that youdo say as well is that it's not
a particular method. We can'tjust follow, you know these
(40:19):
steps, but there is a guidingprinciples, and we have followed
the lead of the Holy Spirit, asthe Holy Spirit is doing
something in that place. How dowe become more principle based
in the way that we work, ratherthan a methodological approach
to just doing a, b and c to makeit work. The subtitle
Emanuel Prinz (40:47):
of the book is partnering with God for Kingdom
multiplication. What actuallystarts movement? Partnering with
God for Kingdom multiplication.
So let me apply this maybe to toour call that we're having,
yeah. So I would say to theaudience, oh no, by no means I'm
saying everything that theresearch found, everything I
(41:08):
write in the book, everythingJoshua and I discussing here,
turn around and do it one onone. No, no, absolutely not.
What would I say? And that is ananswer to your question. Joshua,
I would say, after you'velistened to our podcast here,
pause and say, Father, what ofthis is for me? And maybe
(41:30):
something becomes clear. And ifyou feel compelled and say,
there's value for this, youknow, for my ministry team, or
for my group of closestcolleagues, then why don't you
take that to them, and you dohave a group conversation again,
with the prayer and thediscernment to say for our
unique context, for our uniquechallenges, what of this would
(41:53):
help us break through Growthbarriers, and then anything that
goes shows, be absolutely,radically obedient to what he
shows us, follow through withit. You know, don't give up
after you have done it twice andit doesn't work. You know, give
only up after you've tried atleast 50 times, and it still
(42:15):
doesn't work. But it is what Godis showing you and how God is
inspiring you to take steps,because he is, I mean, he is
with us, right? We believe that.
And I know, as I say this, webelieve this. We all have the
(42:35):
cognitive belief in our heads.
The question is, you know, howpractically does that translate
to my lifestyle or affect mylifestyle? So I start the day
Joshua, literally every morning,my call it devotions, my time
with God, focused on God in thequiet of the morning, and I, i i
(42:58):
Hold, hold on to God's hand. SoI sit there here, you know, and
it expresses to me that I wantto step into this day holding
the Father's hand. I will gowith him into every situation
now that includes an element ofpreparedness. So one of the
prayers I pray every morning isthat I say, Father, what is most
(43:21):
essential for me today. Andtypically I write down one or
two things before I even boot mycomputer and start my work day.
So that gives me direction forthe day. But then again, the
expression to say, now I havemeetings. Now I meet people. Now
(43:42):
I engage in certain projects ortasks or planning meetings.
Again, you know, with theexpectation, Father, I look to
you, there are 100 good thingsthat I could be doing help me to
discern what is most essentialfor me, for us right now that
Joshua Johnson (44:02):
shifts and changes everything, if we could
get it from the cognitive brainside of our knowledge into a
lived, embodied experience withGod that we hear from him, we
obey Him. We walk in step withhim. That requires an intimacy
with God that will actually thencatalyze movements we partner
(44:25):
with him, which I think is abeautiful thing. And it's only
going to take that. I mean, it'sgoing to take intimacy. It's
going to take a daily walk withHim. And it's not just even you
know, 15 minutes in the morningand I had your time with God,
and then I do what I want therest of the day. It is being
(44:47):
with him, having conversationswith him, being attuned to his
voice. It's going to be key. SoI love that. Emmanuel, if you
could talk to your readers, whatdo you hope people get from what
actually. Starts movements. Whatdo you hope that this, this
research in this book, will dofor the world? One thing is what
Emanuel Prinz (45:08):
we just talked about. I would hope that even
while they read through thebook, they begin to develop more
of that lifestyle of activepartnering with God every day,
and I have deliberately designedthe book you will you will see
it when you read it in such away that it takes not just
(45:30):
reading through it, but it takespausing and reflecting and and
and listening prayer to say,what of of the wealth of these
great thoughts is, is for me andis for us as as a ministry team.
So that would be one a second.
Is that i My desire is it wouldinspire people to go deeper in
(45:52):
God and cultivate their hungerfor God, more than any hunger
for ministry success. A thirddesire is we talked about this
at the beginning of this call,is, if it's true that wherever
you see a movement, you willfind a certain type of catalytic
(46:12):
leader. Well, the good news is,none of us can manufacture a
movement, but it is in ourhands, and God has placed it in
our hands to cultivate ourpersonal growth. And the good
news Joshua is that all thesecatalytic qualities can be
(46:33):
developed if we justintentionally work on them. So
there is hope, even when I hearthe list or read the list in the
book and say, Oh yeah, I'm goodat this. Great. But then there
are five other things where Ithink, no, I'm not really good
at this. But if that's the case,good. If you're not good at it
today, you become good at it ifyou just start developing it and
(46:57):
practicing it deliberately sothat is a call to personal
growth and development in thejourney toward ministry
fruitfulness. Because othershave said that before. You know.
I quote the leadership guru,John Maxwell, for example, who
says, you know your leadershipis determined by who you are.
(47:17):
And that is true, your ministryfruitfulness, wherever is the
per determined by who you are.
Our movement, ministryfruitfulness is determined by
who we are. So a greatencouragement and call to to
place more emphasis on personalgrowth and development, as Paul
(47:40):
actually exhorts Timothy andsays, Timothy, you know, watch,
watch over yourself, take careof yourself and the teaching in
other words, your teachingministry. And he Paul says, you
know, Timothy, you come first,you know, make sure your life
heads in the right direction.
And your then your teachingministry does as well, and then
(48:02):
you will save those you that youserve basically.
Joshua Johnson (48:08):
Emmanuel, I have a couple quick questions at the
end. One, if you could go backto your 21 year old self, what
advice would you give?
Emanuel Prinz (48:16):
I would Yeah, a lot, actually, but I think one
that stands out to me Joshua isdo less but better as a 20 year
old, one, you know, I wastotally driven. I worked 100
hours a week. My teammates andfriends would say, Emmanuel, you
drove yourself relentlessly. AndI would say, do less but better.
(48:43):
And what I mean with this isliterally work less. Hours, run
less projects, be involved withless people, reduce all of that
drastically and have time topause and reflect and evaluate
and adapt prayerfully. I thinkthat is probably the number one
(49:08):
advice, if I could do it again,starting out at 21 that I would
tell myself, and that would put,put my life on, on, on an even
better trajectory.
Joshua Johnson (49:20):
That's good.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately, you could
recommend,
Emanuel Prinz (49:24):
um, related to this, or just in general,
Joshua Johnson (49:26):
anything, anything,
Emanuel Prinz (49:29):
well, I have always a pile of books, really,
I'm leading at the same time,but I be because I believe you
we are kind of in the same tribeof you know, CPM and DMM, I
recently met Alan Hirsch, who isalso bringing a movemental
approach to to to the faith andto the church. His focus is more
(49:54):
on the church in the globalnorth, and I have been
benefiting immensely from. Thebook, The Forgotten ways
reactivating. What's thesubtitle, apostolic movements.
So that's that's on my bedsidetable right now, and I highly
recommend it. I'm I'm readingthrough it a second time now.
Yes,
Joshua Johnson (50:13):
the Forgotten ways is a is a fantastic book. I
highly recommend that as well.
But let's go out and get whatactually starts movements,
partnering with God for kingdom,multiplication. Emmanuel, how
can people go and get that book?
And where else would you like topoint people to? I trust
Emanuel Prinz (50:31):
that we will find the link the links in what
you're sending out. Joshua, butyeah, launch day for what
actually starts movement is May29 you find it on amazon.com, or
Amazon in wherever you live inyour country. I also want to
point you to my blog andactually a new podcast that I'm
(50:53):
launching at the same time asthe book. You find it on sub
stack my name. You can searcheither my name, Emmanuel Prince,
or movement catalysts. And Iinvite you to to subscribe, if
you like to message mepersonally or get in touch, or I
can serve you and your ministry.
My website is www, catalyticleadership dot info, catalytic
(51:18):
leadership. Dot info,
Joshua Johnson (51:22):
perfect. Well.
Emmanuel, thank you for thisconversation. Thank you for
walking us through what actuallystarts movements and who these
catalytic leaders are. Whatcharacteristics do they have?
How they rely on God, theyfollow the lead of the spirits,
what it looks like to then makedisciples that would then
multiply, and how that happens,how that goes about. Thanks for
(51:44):
for diving into these things. Itwas a fantastic conversation.
I'm sure a lot of people got alot of out of it. There's a lot
of meat in there. So thank youfor this. It was great, and
Emanuel Prinz (51:58):
it's been an absolute pleasure doing this
with you. Joshua, you.
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