June 3, 2025 • 64 mins
Terry Crist returns to Shifting Culture to talk about the transformative power of rest, the necessity of Sabbath, and finding true refuge in God. Terry, an experienced pastor and insightful communicator, helps us rethink productivity, loneliness, bitterness, and forgiveness, inviting us into a deeper relationship with God's perfect love. In this episode, you'll discover how to shift your approach to rest, see productivity as a natural outflow of abiding in God, and break free from cycles of striving and bitterness. Join us for a meaningful conversation that will leave you with renewed peace, purpose, and perspective.
Terry Crist is the co-lead pastor of City of Grace in Phoenix alongside his wife, Judith. He has a Th.M. and a D.Min. and has a business certificate in nonprofit management from Harvard Business School. Terry is also passionate about community transformation and promotes adoption and foster care through his work in state government. An avid outdoorsman and gifted communicator, he has adventured and preached the gospel in 65 nations. Terry and Judith have three married sons and four grandchildren. They live in Arizona.
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Episode Transcript
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Terry Crist (00:00):
Sabbath is not the reward for six days of hard
(00:03):
work. Sabbath is the basis forsix days of productive work. So
if we can shift the mentalitywhere we're not seeing you know
this making me to lie down asGod being dissatisfied, but it's
the invitation into greaterproductivity, then it becomes
something I want, not somethingthat I resent. Hello and
Joshua Johnson (00:39):
welcome to the shifting culture podcast in
which we have conversationsabout the culture. About the
culture we create and the impactwe can make. We long to see the
body of Christ look like Jesus.
I'm your host. Joshua JohnsonTerry Christ is back on the
podcast. I am excited to havehim here. He is a seasoned
pastor and thoughtfulcommunicator, and has spent
years walking alongside people,observing the deep struggles
(01:02):
beneath the surface of our busylives, struggles like
loneliness, bitterness, angerand the relentless pursuit of
productivity that often leavesus exhausted. In this
conversation, Terry helps usrethink our relationship with
rest, inviting us to see Sabbathnot as a reward for our hard
work, but as the very foundationthat enables productive,
(01:23):
meaningful lives. We discuss theillusion of running towards
ambitions or away from pain, andhow true refuge is found only
when we anchor ourselves deeplyin God's perfect love. We also
explore the epidemic ofloneliness, the trap of
bitterness and thetransformative power of
forgiveness. Terry offers avision of life where
(01:46):
productivity flows naturallyfrom being deeply loved and
securely rested in God. Ifyou're feeling overwhelmed by
the relentless pace of life,wrestling with bitterness or
sensing a need for deeperspiritual rest. This episode
will help you pause, reflect andmove forward with renewed peace
and purpose. So join us as weshift our perspective and
(02:08):
discover the profound invitationof Jesus into rest, abundance
and true refuge. Here is myconversation with Terry. Christ.
Terry, welcome back to shiftingculture. Excited to have you
back on. Thanks for joining meagain. Thank
Terry Crist (02:24):
you, Joshua, it's great to be with you. I was
thinking right before we jumpedon today that you were my first
interviewer when I releasedloving Samaritans, and this is
my first interview for now youcan stop running so you get all
the raw, you get the unrefined,the unfinished and the stream of
consciousness, but thanks forhaving me. You're welcome.
Joshua Johnson (02:46):
You're welcome.
This would be good. Well, theworld does seem like an
overwhelming place at themoment, and I think there's a
lot of people that are dealingwith a lot of things through
through trauma and anxiety andguilt and bitterness, because
what's going on in this world,and they're running to something
or they're running fromsomething, where have you found
yourself in your past running toor running from something where
(03:11):
you said maybe the refuge of Godis probably the best place, but
I'm going to try and take solacein something else before I run
to God. Without
Terry Crist (03:25):
a doubt, I've done both in my life. I have run
toward things that were higherand more noble pursuits, at
least in my own rationale,things like Kingdom impact and
significance and a flourishingministry and people care, and
all of those things I do thinkare noble pursuits, but they're
(03:46):
not intended to be thedestination, nor are they the
things that really providesatisfaction of soul. And then,
on the other hand, I've run fromthings. I have run from pain and
from grief and from parts of myown story that I didn't want to
face, and what I've learned isthat both kinds of running will
wear you out, whether it'sambition or avoidance, if it's
(04:09):
not anchored in God's perfectlove, if it isn't centered in
Jesus, the only one who canprovide true and lasting refuge,
then It is but an illusion ofrest and refuge.
Joshua Johnson (04:22):
So people who believe in Jesus and have Holy
Spirit with them at all timesand know that there is a
constant presence of God in ourlife. Like God is not distant,
he's not far, but there's aconstant presence. Why do you
think that we don't payattention to that presence and
try to seek solace in otherthings.
Terry Crist (04:45):
Well, we live in a world of idols, idols of our
own, making these falsedestinations, these refuges. And
they're not just in the worldaround us. Clearly, they are
there, the things that peoplepursue, believing that. Going to
provide this sense of rest andsatisfaction of soul, but we
(05:05):
also have these things in thechurch. And just because you
pray a prayer of surrender andinvest faith in Jesus and go
through the waters of baptismdoesn't mean that your thinking
has completely been renewed. Infact, that's the journey. It's
the journey of formation. It'sthe journey of becoming like
Jesus. And I think a lot oftimes, people have sort of
(05:28):
traded one idol for another. Soin the Christian life, to your
point, we idolize busyness, weidolize productivity, we idolize
doing. And all these thingsbecome cheap and hollow
substitutes for what it means tobe loved and what it means to
abide and what it means to trulybe at rest in Jesus, and that's
(05:51):
what He invites us into, notexchanging one form of doing for
another, not exchanging oneambition for another, but
ceasing from our labors. I lovethis line that we hear in the
gospels, and I think itresonates with so many of us,
and particularly maybe withthose in ministry, where Jesus
says, Come to me those who areweary, and I will give you rest.
(06:15):
Well, he's saying that toIsrael, his disciples are
certainly in the mix of that. Sothese are people who had pursued
God and had known God, butsomehow that pursuit had become
the end and the goal, and notthe sense of arrival and abiding
in him. Pope
Joshua Johnson (06:33):
Francis, just passed away. You know, he has a
Jesuit background. One of thethings that I really like about
the Jesuits is they talk aboutbeing a contemplative in action,
like there is a there is a rest,and being with, with Jesus, but
actually, then being active inspiritual life, in ministry in
the world. How does that play apart? As you said, busyness can
(06:59):
be an idol, but then activeministry can actually be a good
thing. Where does thecontemplation or the rest and
the refuge of God play into apart of being active in ministry
and good things of this world?
Terry Crist (07:15):
I think for me, the question would be, what are we
operating from? The basis of,are we working from striving, or
are we working from rest? Sothere is this, as you say,
activity that is a part of thelife of the believer. Whether
you're a parent, there is thisparental activity. If you're on
(07:37):
mission in the marketplace,there is a business activity. We
all have this activity, but thequestion is whether or not that
we are working from thisfrenetic place, this frenzied
place, or we're working from aplace of rest, sense of knowing
that we're loved and we'reaccepted, that we've been chosen
(07:58):
by God and that we don't have toearn his approval, so the
outcome is going to be verydifferent. If I'm working to
gain approval, if I'm working tobe loved, then there's a
desperation in that, and thedesperation in that leads to a
life of frustration. But if I'mworking from the basis of I am
(08:19):
loved, therefore I want to loveothers well I am led. Therefore
I want to lead others well Iwork for the one who is
interested in productivity.
Jesus taught those parablescalling us to productivity.
Therefore, from that basis Iwant to be productive. So it
really depends upon what thecenter of your life is and from
what basis you were working. Youreferenced Pope Francis. I had
(08:42):
the opportunity to visit withhim in 2023 and in 2024 there in
his papal quarters, small cohortof pastors and leaders. And a
number of things struck me aboutthat encounter Joshua, but
nothing more than the fact thathe was fully engaged in
listening, and he had this, whathe called the apostolate of the
(09:06):
ear, the this commitment to deeplistening, to being really
present, whether he was talkingwith a world leader or an
ordinary pastor like us or evena child, he had this way being
in these moments. And I thinkyou can only do that if you know
that you are fully loved andfully accepted and you're at
peace with who you are. Thenfrom there, you can engage in a
(09:28):
way that is productive. So theChristian life calls us to the
right ordering of ourpriorities, and our priorities
must be working from rest,working from love, working from
acceptance, and from there, thendoing the work of the Kingdom.
Joshua Johnson (09:48):
As you've been walking with people in pastoral
ministry, have you seen anyshift or change of the pain
points in people's life? Whatare the like? Main. Major pain
points that people are goingthrough now and maybe earlier in
your ministry life, you didn'tactually see it as much. What
(10:09):
are the things that are poppingnow as pain points? I
Terry Crist (10:12):
would answer that a couple of ways. First of all, I
think the issues at the surfacechange, but the fundamental
human needs remain the same. Sothe fundamental need for love,
for acceptance, for affirmation,for significance, for purpose,
those things are eternal. Theseare the holy longings that we
(10:33):
have within ourselves, longingsfor transcendence and for a
spiritual connection, for anexistence outside of our own
head in the world. So that thenchanges over time. How do we in
an age of social media speak tothose fundamental issues, and
then, of course, throughouttime, some of those issues,
(10:54):
those those bigger, deeperissues, tend to maybe raise
above the other. So lonelinesswould be one. Right now, we're
in a global epidemic ofloneliness, and it's not just
simply, you know, with peoplewho we might consider to be far
from God, but people who are apart of our spiritual
communities are passing eachother and not really, genuinely
(11:16):
connecting. So I thinkloneliness is something I would
highlight as being a verysignificant issue. It's hard to
provide a sense of connectionthat brings others out of
loneliness into being loved andseen and heard if we haven't
been there, themselves,ourselves. So I think you know,
(11:37):
the first work that we alwayshave to do is the personal work,
the soul work, the sense ofsitting at the feet of Jesus for
ourselves as husbands and wivesand leaders and business people
and educators and athletes andentertainers and whatever we
have to do this first work ofbeing present to Jesus, being
(11:58):
loved by Jesus, and then fromthat we can communicate with a
robustness what that looks like,and invite others into that
reality as well. I
Joshua Johnson (12:08):
do think loneliness is a big element of
our time. I mean, just thisweekend that we're recording
this thunderbolts, this newMarvel movie came out, and it
was all about loneliness anddepression and feeling isolated,
and that the only thing thatactually helped this villain
(12:29):
that was making people gotowards the void of depression
and loneliness was a communityof people around them. It was,
it's a strange thing to say,hey, this, this crazy comic book
movie, is going to actuallyspeak to the ailment of our age,
which is this lonelinessepidemic, and they're trying to
(12:50):
find answers to it. As somebodywho knows that there is presence
with Jesus, and he is closerthan anybody could ever be to
us? What do you think that wecan start to do to help in this
loneliness epidemic? You did saythat, you know, we can't force
any connection. We can't forcethat. But what are some of the
(13:14):
things that we can do to helppeople move towards refuge?
Terry Crist (13:18):
I think first and foremost, we can live lives of
invitation, lives that are open,lives that are hospitable, and
that often means that we slowdown just a beat, that we walk a
little slower through our days.
We're a little more observant ofthe lives of the people around
us, whether that's in a grocerystore, you know, picking cereal,
(13:39):
a box of cereal, off the shelfnext to someone, there. Just
these moments of opportunityallow us to live these lives of
hospitality and invitation. AndI think that it's really
important for all of us to dothat. An extra moment at the end
of the day with your kids can goa long way. An extra moment in
the morning with a husband orwife, a spouse, before you go
(14:02):
about your day, a pastor walkingthrough the lobby of the church
just a little slower. And I wantto be really clear that I'm
speaking as a learner. I'mspeaking as a practitioner. I am
still in process, and I livethis sort of life, and by by
nature, I'm sort of hardwired tojust put my head down and just
(14:25):
go about getting the job done.
But sometimes the job isn't thejob. Sometimes it's seeing
people and acknowledging peopleand having conversations with
people. There are a lot ofpeople in the world today who
don't open up quickly andeasily. And the fact is, we have
a couple of kids that way. Ihave three sons, and two of the
(14:47):
three open up slowly. The oldestson comes out of the gate hot
every single morning. So they'reall men. Now they're grown up,
but back when they wereteenagers at home, I mean, from
the moment his eyes opened. Hewas in this high verbal stream
of consciousness without withoutpause, without beat. And then
(15:08):
our other sons tend to wake upslower throughout the day and
really come alive about the timethat my day is over. And my wife
was always better at this, juststaying up a little longer,
being present a little more. AndI learned through watching her
that people open up at their ownpace. What I don't want to have
happen Joshua is to miss themoment when they might open up.
(15:33):
So we have to linger. We've gotto stay there. And if if they
open up a little quicker, great.
If not, then let's not miss thatopportunity and invite them into
community. There are a lot ofpeople in the world today that
are lonely only because no one'sreached out, no one's invited
them, no one's come along andsaid, Hey, why don't you join me
at my home group? Why don't you,you know, I'd love to have a
(15:54):
coffee with you. You know, justthose sorts of simple things
that we take for granted,especially within the community
of faith, are, in fact, verynovel for many people in the
world today who don't haveexposure to that sort of
invitation and hospitality andconcern,
Joshua Johnson (16:14):
one of the things that that loneliness can
do is move us towards bitternessbecause we have been isolated
and maybe even hurt. And one ofyour chapters, you talk running
with scissors, you're talkingabout from bitterness to
forgiveness. I think forgivenessis the secret sauce of our
(16:36):
spiritual life, like it helps usremove the chains that are
encapsulating us throughwhatever unforgiveness that we
do have, and that bitternessholds us back to engaging with
others in the world, toconnecting with other people, to
moving forward. Where did yousee that in Scripture? What's a
(16:56):
good example for us to move frombitterness to forgiveness, and
what does that look like?
Terry Crist (17:02):
Well, if I could just start with the idea that I
believe there is a power innaming things. So grace comes
on. What we face, what we name,what we kind of square up to,
the more unsightly parts of oursouls that really need to be
brought into the light of God'spresence. By naming those
(17:22):
things, we can really begin toapply or make space for the
grace of God to be present tothem. So there's a long list of
runners in the scripture, and Ithink it sort of sits in this
thesis I have, that we're allrunning from something or to
something. We're all coming fromunmet needs, unhealed wounds, or
(17:43):
we're in pursuit of a betterlife. So whether you're a
sprinter or a marathoner, we'reall running towards something in
life. And for some people, theyare driven by that sense of
unforgiveness, that sense ofbitterness. Bitterness never
starts off as bitterness. Itstarts off as a wound, an
(18:03):
offense, a hurt that isoftentimes justified, and when
we add justification to the painof being wounded, then it
becomes something more. So, ifI'm hurt and I can address that
in a space of honesty, then Ihave a great, high opportunity,
(18:25):
a likelihood of seeing ithealed. But when I double down
and begin to justify it, butthey did, they met, they
intended people always, and Ibegin to, you know, load it with
that, then I end up in asituation where that something
such as a wound, becomesunforgiveness, which then
metastasizes into being bitterthis and when bitterness is
(18:46):
present, it springs up anddefiles many, as Hebrew says, so
we see this all through theScripture. We see it with Cain
in the very beginning. We see itwith Absalom. We see
opportunities, even in Peter'slife, in the gospels, you know,
he had an opportunity to turn toforgiveness or to turn to
bitterness. So this is a commonissue. The issue that we all
(19:10):
face, the beauty of the gospel,is that there is provision for
that. Jesus is committed toloving through us when we don't
find love within ourselves, andhe is committed to forgiving
through us. When we don't findforgiveness within ourselves,
and when we allow forgiveness toflow through us, then the
(19:31):
residue of forgiveness begins toform and shape our soul. And
over time, the sting offorgiveness is gone.
Unforgiveness is gone. It's notthat we forget what was done to
us, but that sting, that bitter,bitter pain, is no longer
present in our lives. You
Joshua Johnson (19:47):
know, I always find it fascinating that we in
America, where I am now lookingat this through an
individualistic lens, like, whatis it about me? You know, when I
lived in the Middle East. Ilooked at it through a communal
lens, like so what is, what isthe offense that that this
tribe, this family of people,had, and why they have
(20:11):
bitterness and unforgiveness,and so there's feuding across
tribal groups and family groupsand collective groups of people.
I know, you've you've traveledthe world, you've seen a lot of
different cultures. How couldthis start to help moving from
towards forgiveness in a morecommunal setting, and in a
(20:35):
communal culture where there'sgroups of people that are
fighting and angry at eachother. Because there's an in
group and there's an out group,there's there's bitterness and
offense on one side, and so thiswhole group is angry at each
other. I
Terry Crist (20:51):
think it always starts with a single individual.
And I'll look in the mirror andsay, it all starts with me. You
know, someone has to be willingto lay down their weapons.
Someone has to be willing torisk rejection, someone has to
be willing to extend the olivebranch of peace. It all starts
with someone, and that may besomeone in a family. Today, we
(21:14):
can talk about it, you know,here at the meta level, we can
talk about this, you know, as aglobal issue, and it's true,
we're in an age of outrage.
We're in an age where people arejust, you know, on the verge of
going off for any reason. Andthese are just the surface
expressions of these deeperissues that we're talking about
(21:35):
here today. But it's present intribes, it's present in
communities, and it's present infamilies. And at some point we
have to set the tone. And thisis what people of faith do. This
is what followers of Jesus do,where we say, Okay, we're going
to set the tone here forcivility and for compassion and
for conversation. And it reallycomes out of a revelation of who
(21:59):
Jesus is and what Jesus did, andhow he lived his life in the
gospels, and how that his lifedidn't end in failure. But his
model is the model for our livestoday. And if you look at Jesus
through the lens of, well, thatdidn't work, you know, then of
course, you're going to useweapons to try and accomplish
your own ends. But if you lookat the life and set of Jesus and
(22:22):
say it worked, it meant layingdown his life, but it worked. So
starting with me, what can I doto say I'm going to be the
change that the world needs. I'mgoing to be the individual that
starts this conversation, thatextends the olive branch that
lays down my weapons and startslistening, and that can feel
(22:44):
very, very risky, because one ofthe things we also experience in
today's world is this level ofdefensiveness. You know, it's
not just outrage, but it'sdefensiveness. It is based in
fear. And I found that, youknow, when we talk about this
idea of rest, sometimes it makesus feel unsafe. When we talk
(23:04):
about this idea of peace andsafety, it makes us feel unsafe.
And so when it comes to running,we think, if we stop, then the
monsters are going to catch upwith us. If we don't fight, then
the monsters are going toovertake us. So we live in this
posture, and I'm inviting peopleto step out of that, to come
home to Jesus, to to community,to faith, and there begin to be
(23:28):
what is needed in the communityaround you. Fear
Joshua Johnson (23:35):
is, is often the the place of, you know,
defensiveness. So then you saidthat these, these issues, are
not really the surface levelissues. They're the questions
people are asking underneath thesurface. And I think
defensiveness would would be infear would be like saying, No,
it actually is just the surface.
There's nothing underneathwhat's going on. It's just, I
(23:57):
need to solve whatever thesurface is and everything will
be okay. How do leaders,pastors, communicators, even
business leaders, who have todeal with people all the time,
how do people get beneath thesurface to actually know what
the issue really is, that it'snot just the surface level, but
there is something underneath.
(24:20):
What are some tips that you havefound to get under the surface,
Terry Crist (24:24):
I think asking yourself really strategic
questions. You know, why am Ifeeling this way? Why am I
reacting this way? Might I bewrong in the situation? Might
there be another viewpoint thatis equally, if not more valid,
really, really being willing toask ourselves the kind of
questions, rather than doublingdown in our behavior. I know
(24:48):
this is perhaps a bitsimplified, simplistic and but
at the risk ofoversimplification, I think so
much of what we see in the worldtoday is the result of scarcity
thinking. Me. So when I livefrom the mindset of scarcity,
then that postures me. You know,completely different than if I
(25:08):
lived from the mindset ofabundance. And Walter
Brueggemann helped me a lot onthis, and I think he helped me
for a couple of reasons. Numberone, he's an Old Testament
scholar. He is not a teleevangelist. So when he talks
about abundance, it's not to getsomething from you, and it's not
formulaic, it's formational. Andso he has written extensively
(25:29):
about this idea of scarcitythinking and I think in our own
lives, whether it's financialleaders or parents or even
spiritual leaders, when when weare afraid of not having enough
when we are looking at lifethrough the lens of scarcity.
Then, of course, we're going tobe defensive, and we're going to
(25:49):
live in this posture that isantagonistic because we're
fighting for what we we feellike we're missing. But on the
other hand, if we realize thatwhat we have is not only enough,
it is more than enough, becausewhat we have is a person. We
have, the person who is thesummation of life, who has the
(26:11):
answers to life, who has allthat life needs and and longs
for. And so if I live connectedto that source, then I don't
have to be afraid of not havingenough and not being enough. And
if I can just come to to realizethat it's going to change a lot
in my life, I don't need to fearnot having enough. Therefore I
(26:32):
don't have to fight and competefor resources. I always have
enough. And
Joshua Johnson (26:37):
I think when, when I think of scarcity, I
think it's opposite ofconnection being connected. We
really need to have more of aconnected type of worldview,
that there is enough for all ofus in this world that I think it
would stop us from trying to runtowards things and run away from
(26:58):
things. And we could actually befirm and stand firm in our
dependence on God and eachother, and we could connect.
Well, how did we miss thisconnected worldview? What
happened? It started in thegarden, and then what? What
happened over time that we'velost this connection and this
(27:19):
way of connecting with eachother.
Terry Crist (27:21):
I think first and foremost, this sense of
abundance comes out of ourrelationship with God, and there
in the garden, it was severedthat life giving relationship we
had with the author of life. Sowe immediately, as a species,
move into the deficit. Weimmediately begin working from a
(27:43):
place of scarcity, and we seethat framed in Adam and Eve's
original language there in theconversation between the serpent
and Eve as he introduces thissense of you're missing
something. God's keeping youfrom your full potential. You
know he doesn't want you tomeasure up and live up. And
then, of course, from there, wesee separation working
(28:06):
throughout the human condition.
So Joshua sort of baked into us,sort of wired into us. We aren't
born with an abundancementality. We're born with this
scarcity mentality. And I thinkapart from a life giving
relationship with Jesus, we liveit now. We may fill it from time
to time with possessions andwith accomplishments, but deep
(28:30):
within the human condition,there are these holy longings.
And these longings come fromscarcity. These longings come
from disconnection. So thedisconnection issue is resolved
first of all in our relationshipwith God vertically. But we also
know from God that we need morethan just to exist in friendship
with God. We need to exist infriendship within the human
(28:53):
community. And of course, we seethat modeled in the triune
godhead, thisinterconnectedness, this, this
mutual submission, this thiscommunal, you know, depiction,
and it's really the model forhow we're to live our lives in
connected, being connected withGod and with each other.
(29:14):
Scarcity
Joshua Johnson (29:16):
mindset, it goes into our relationship with time
that we think that time isscarce and we don't have enough
time, and so we're constantlyrunning to keep up. You, you
admittedly said that you werelike Alexander Hamilton. You're
non stop, that you're trying tokeep up, right? And I think a
lot of us are. I joke aroundthat my, you know, my son's only
(29:38):
seven, but we constantly jokethat he's like Alexander
Hamilton. He's non stop. But youwrite in your book that you
finally come to this place ofyou think that you actually have
enough time. What? What hasshifted? How? What is our
relationship with time and howdoes, how do we actually situace
ourselves in our good way? Workwith time?
Terry Crist (30:02):
Yeah, well, I want to be very clear that I've
written this book as a learner,as a practitioner. I am not a
therapist. I'm a pastor. I lovepeople, I live with people, I
serve people, and it's really myhighest goal in life. I have
friends, in fact, even familymembers who've laughed about the
fact that I am the most unlikelycandidate to be writing a book
(30:25):
about rest, but I think so muchof our lives and the deepest
wells in our lives, and the mostgenuine help that we offer to
others often comes out of ourown need, out of our own deficit
and awareness of that need andhow we're processing that need.
So you're right. For me, afterdecades of ministry and
(30:48):
leadership and running hard, Ibegan to realize that if I
didn't care for my own Soul,that no one else would. And I
began to realize thatfundamentally, I was tired to
the bone, and I'm not the onlyone. I think people everywhere
are profoundly tired. We talkabout rest like it's a luxury,
(31:08):
but in reality, it is anecessity, and it's a biblical
command. So I wanted to createsomething that gave people
permission to stop running, thatinvited them to rest, not
because they've arrived, butbecause that God's love is
sufficient. And to yourquestion, in my own life, I
(31:29):
think that in my running,whether and I've run from a lot
of things, so I've run, youknow, toward kingdom, impact and
toward significance and towardapproval, hoping that if I were
a more effective leader, I wouldfeel secure and and then I've
run away from things. I've runfrom pain and from grief and
(31:50):
from parts of my own story thatI didn't want to face. And I've
discovered that whether we'rerunning from ambition or
avoidance, the answer is reallyanchored in God's perfect love.
So I'm in process. I'm gettingto the point you've described.
I'm more at peace. I'm more atrest. But then again, it's a
(32:11):
daily thing, right? So just likewe take up our cross daily to
follow Jesus, we also enter intoHis rest daily. So I don't want
to give the impression to anyonethat man, Terry mastered it,
wrote the book, and now he's theexpert. I'm I'm not, I'm not an
expert, but I'm processing this,and the key to it is abiding in
(32:34):
the love of God. The morepresent I am to the love of God,
the more at content, morecontent. My spirit is more at
rest. My heart is and morerestful I am.
Joshua Johnson (32:44):
So there's this dichotomy for me, that God is
outside of time. God is love,and we're resting the love of
God, but we are. We're inside oftime. We have, we have limits in
our human life and our ability,and we need rest, but we, we do
want to. We're made in the imageof God. It's, it feels like this
(33:05):
tension to me. Of All right, Godis so far outside of time that
there's rest in Him, but then weare in time. How do we? How do
we deal with this time issuewhen it comes to our
relationship with God andresting in that, yeah,
Terry Crist (33:22):
that there's a great tension in that, and I
appreciate you highlighting thatbecause the psalmist teaches us
to number our days. So there isa weighing and evaluating that
we need to do as it relates toproductivity, as it relates to
the fruitfulness of our lives.
God wants us to be fruitful. Hewants our lives to bear abundant
fruit so that others can eatfrom it and be nourished. He
(33:45):
wants our days to Jesus gave usthese parables, right, these
stewardship parables, where heleaves on us the impression that
we need to multiply and thenight is coming when no man can
work. So all of that is wrappedup in what you've described
there. I think what I'm tryingto get to is the difference
between working from rest,working from acceptance, working
(34:10):
from a place of being at peacewith God, versus trying to earn
those things. So there is theactivity of the Christian life,
where that we are discipling andwe're serving and we're building
and we're partnering with Jesusand remaking the world. Wow,
what a huge idea that is, thatwe would be privileged to have
(34:32):
friendship with God, inpartnership with God in the
shaping of the world based uponthe resurrection of Jesus and
him being seated as King andLord of all. That's mind
blowing, and that feels like alot. So I can attempt to
accomplish that through strivingand through drivenness and
through all of the toxicity thatcomes with, you know, becoming a
(34:56):
slave to m. Empire working forPharaoh unceasing rest, or, on
the other hand, I can enter intothe rest of God and partner with
him and do those things from aseated place. So that's what I'm
trying to get to in all of this.
Is, what are we coming from?
What basis are we serving andleading and making and
(35:19):
recreating from and if we'redoing that from rest, then we're
much more effective in whatwe're doing. God is much more
glorified, and our work itselfis much more complete. It
reminds
Joshua Johnson (35:34):
me of Psalm 23 at the beginning, it says that
God makes me lie down in greenpastures. So he makes me stop
for my running. He's like, I'mgoing to actually sit you down.
You're going to do this. It'snot just a it should be a
choice. It is a choice that Ihave. But God's heart and desire
(35:55):
is rest, even in the midst ofour enemies, even in the midst
of the valley of the shadow ofdeath, he wants rest. It's
beautiful, but he's he's tryingto get us to this place. I love
Psalm 23 I
Terry Crist (36:13):
did too. I live in that, and during times of
anxiety and frustration andtension, I go right back to
that, and I love the fact thatyou know, God does bring us into
situations. You know, maybe forsome of your listeners and
viewers, it may be that they'vecome to the realization of their
need for deep soul rest overtime. But for others, it may be
(36:36):
that God has allowed conditionsin their life to interrupt their
striving and they're running.
And when he does that, aspainful as that is, that's
really a gift. You know, when ashepherd says to the sheep, you
need to rest. You know, if we'dbeen taught that we have to work
to earn God's approval, thenrest can feel like punishment.
It can feel like displeasure,but when we understand that rest
(36:59):
is the invitation to abide inGod, to be deeply connected to
Jesus, so that we're moreproductive, right? So that
that's what it is. Sabbath isnot the reward for six days of
hard work. Sabbath is the basisfor six days of productive work.
So if we can shift the mentalitywhere we're not seeing, you
(37:23):
know, this making me to lie downas God being dissatisfied, but
it's the invitation into greaterproductivity, then it becomes
something I want, not somethingthat I resent. In today's
Joshua Johnson (37:37):
culture, you there's a lot of polarization,
but there's a lot of anger onall sides. People are angry at
each other. You know, as youwalk through your your chapter
around anger, you walk throughthe story of Moses, and I think
that's a great picture of whatit looks like to say, Okay, I
(37:59):
might have a calling here now,and God wants me to do
something, but I don't know howto channel it. I'm channeling it
out of anger, right? He he goes,the first thing he does is he
murders somebody like it, out ofanger of hey, now I'm trying to
be with my people that I haven'tbeen with before. I've been in
this court of Egypt, and I'mtrying to be with it the Jewish
(38:23):
people now, and there'sinjustice. So I have anger. We
see a lot of injustice. We see alot of things in our culture
that are really difficult. Howdo we not run towards anger in
the middle of all of it? Or howdo we reframe anger into
righteous anger that actuallyhelps and doesn't hurt.
Terry Crist (38:44):
I love the story of Moses, and I think the older I
get, the more I relate to Moses.
And obviously, in my 20s, man,it was all about Joshua. We were
the Joshua generation. And, youknow, it's all about Joshua and
that 60 now I'm really startingto connect more with Moses. One
of the things I see in this ideaof running there is that the
years and the miles don'tnaturally make us softer. They
(39:07):
only make us harder. We onlybecome softer. And by softer, I
don't mean weaker, but Meekerand more pliable and teachable
by doing the work that we needto do, the work in God's
presence, the work in the word,the work of interacting in
community, maybe even the workof therapy and of counseling.
(39:28):
But we we need to do the deepsoul work, because that's what
interrupts the cycles. When Iwas reading the story of Moses,
I began to see his story as apicture of cognitive loops that
we can get stuck in, where wejust run in these circles, and
it's the hamster on the wheeljust running and running and
running, and we need somethingto get us off that wheel. So
(39:50):
from Moses, he ends up, asyou've you've described, you
know, out of Pharaoh's chord,he's on the backside of the
desert. But he's still Moses.
He's still fundamentally trappedin these cognitive loops and in
the struggle and in thisdisposition toward anger. He has
an encounter with God and comesto know God as the one who is
(40:13):
gracious and kind and longsuffering. And I love. When God
reveals Himself, He says, I amwho I am. But let me tell you
who I am. I am gracious, and I'mkind. And God starts with that
sort of language, which musthave been shocking to Moses, and
so from there, Moses then beginsto to allow that to work within
(40:34):
his life. And he still has thistension he loves God's people.
Then he's hacked off on Mondaymorning after church services
didn't go well. He, he, youknow, all of these things are a
part of his life, but the ideaof anger in Moses's life is a
cautionary one, because I thinkanger is a sign of what we feel
(40:56):
unjust about, or what we feel isunjust in the world. But I think
we also can deceive ourselvesinto believing that our anger is
righteous and is justified.
God's anger is righteous andjustified, and I don't know that
my anger is always righteous andjustified, even when I see
injustice around me in theworld. So I've got to be very,
(41:19):
very careful, and I've got toask myself the question, okay, I
see what's happening in theworld, and I move toward the
need, but is anger the solutiontoward this? Or because that we
live in an age of outrage, andbecause it's so easy just to
yell and shout and then feelthat we've done something, what
if I take back that feeling ofoutrage and anger, let God feel
(41:43):
that, because it's legitimatefrom him, but for me, can I move
into a posture of kindness andmercy and generosity and being
long suffering and being helpfuland compassionate? And I think
that's really what I want tocall people to, because it's
just so easy to be angry andjustify it and then think it's
(42:04):
all righteous, and God alone isrighteous. And for us, we're to
embody his kindness and hisgenerosity and his compassion.
So
Joshua Johnson (42:17):
if we start to align our desires or our heart
to God's heart, and he's he hassome righteous anger. He knows
that what is happening in thisworld is unjust, and we are
moved to do something about itin this world, because we're
trying to actually have theheart of God in our lives.
(42:38):
What's then our responsibilityas we move towards injustice,
and then God's responsibilitywhat's what's ours to own and
what's God's to own in that,maybe
Terry Crist (42:51):
the better way of me putting this is that ours is
to act. Ours is to move towardthe hurting and the suffering
and the marginalized and thedisenfranchised and those who
have been abused ours isdefinitely to act but, but not
to to act with a sense of tryingto bring recompense, trying to
(43:11):
bring judgment, and that'sreally what I'm moving toward.
We can move towards solutions,and we should. We should be
engaged in the areas of society,but to be a solution oriented
people. And I think maybe, maybethere's some reaction in in me,
against the keyboard warriorsand the people that just scream,
you know, and the outrage thatcontinues to build to build to
(43:35):
build, to build. And, you know,we need somebody to interrupt
the cognitive loop. We needsomebody to say that there is a
measured approach act we mustbut let's do it through the the
intention of bringing aboutresolution in the human
condition, bringing the wisdomof heaven to bear, bringing, you
(43:57):
know, it's hard to be anadvocate if you're blinded by
your own anger. And those aresome of the terms that we use
about anger, right? So I don'tknow that we have a lot of
metaphors that that speak ofanger in a way that's healthy.
You know, we're outraged andwe're blinded by anger. I'm
inviting people to step awayfrom that and to take the things
that we're troubled by and toallow that to fuel us toward
(44:20):
engagement in a way that is kindand compassionate. I
Joshua Johnson (44:26):
hope so. I think we could engage kindly,
compassionately in the world,each other, defuse some of this
outrage, this anger, that we canactually be embodied presence of
Jesus, instead of just shoutinginto the ether and the void, or
shouting towards other people.
You know, sometimes when I do,am connected with God, and I'm
(44:48):
praying, and I'm starting to gethis heart. I think that when I
pray, that God is going to sendme somewhere, like I'm going to.
Get his heart. So I'm going toactually have to do something in
this world. Think about thestory of Jonah, where God sends
him to a place where I don'tlike these people. I don't want
(45:09):
to do this. I am very reluctant,but I'm going to go anyways. I'm
going to but I'm not going to behappy about it. How do we in
those situations? How do we getto the other side of that, where
we're in this like joyfuldelight with God, even if he's
(45:31):
asking us to do hard anddifficult things, and he will.
Terry Crist (45:40):
I was raised to believe that, you know, the
center of God's will was thesafest place to be. I discovered
it's actually the most dangerousplace to be. Jesus was at the
center of God's will, and he gothim crucified. So back to the
idea that I didn't coin theterm, but the myth of righteous
anger is a term that's beenused. You know, Jonah feels
(46:01):
that. Jonah feels justified. Youknow, first of all, he's the
reluctant prophet. You know, heruns away from God. I mean, he
goes to painstaking lengths toget away from the call of God,
and leaves and heads in theopposite direction of where he
should be going. And yet, Godintervenes, and the story then
(46:23):
continues with him reluctantlyaccepting the call of God. And
so he ends up in Nineveh, thisgreat city that God sends him to
pronounce judgment upon. And theremarkable thing was that he
didn't arrive in Nineveh with aturn or burn message. It was a
burn baby, burn message. Therewas no invitation to repentance
(46:45):
or surrender or turning, becauseGod was intent on destruction,
and Jonah is acting as hismouthpiece. And then, of course,
God's heart is moved. God seesthe contrition and the humility
and the repentance of thepeople, and when he does. Jonah
is outraged because he's holdingthe line. He's the one who is
(47:05):
angry on God's behalf, and nowGod seems to be acting unjust.
So Wow. What a moment there thatI can perceive God's justice to
be one thing only to discoverthat God, in His mercy, is
acting one way. And then I flipit and perceived God to be
unjust. So the beauty of allthis is that Jesus loved Jonah.
(47:26):
He references Jonah on more thanone occasion, and he gets it. He
gets how we can exist in thesesituations where we run from
Him. We're trapped by the mythof righteous anger. We don't
understand His mercy and thedepth of his kindness in Christ,
Jesus and so all this means thatwe are humans in process. What
(47:46):
do we do with it? Well, I thinkthat we live lives in such a way
that are yielded, that say, Notmy will, but Your will be done.
We live like Jesus, surrenderedto the point of the cross,
allowing God to love through us,allowing God's grace to flow
through us. And when we livethat way, that becomes the kind
(48:08):
of way that that createsconditions for God to work in
the lives of people who arearound us. I love. Jonah,
there's so much in that. And ofcourse, the outcome, the
repentance of the people, themercy of God on display, and
then the book abruptly ends. Wedon't know what happens with
Jonah. It just it just ends.
It's like in the middle of ActFour, the story is over. But I
(48:31):
think Jesus comes along as thebetter Jonah. So Jonah is not
really our model. Jesus is, andhe shows us what it means to
love people unconditionally.
Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (48:45):
he's the better Jonah. He is the new Moses. Like
we see all of this, that it'sthe Jesus is the culmination of
it, and he's the one that weactually need to follow and then
embody in the world. So whatdoes it then look like to run to
Jesus? What does it look like togo to him instead of running
(49:06):
away from things or runningtowards things that are not the
refuge of God? What does it looklike to run to Jesus?
Terry Crist (49:13):
I think it's a process, but a process that
begins when we become aware ofour need to find rest within
him. I think the world is filledwith false refuges, temporary
refuges, the refuge of power andprestige in the sense of having
arrived in what we have learnedand acquired. But I think the
(49:35):
deeper refuge is in Jesus. Infact, I know the deeper refuge
is in him. And we come to thatsometimes progressively. So I
was just thinking about the ideathis morning that if, when I
talk about finding rest inJesus, if we could just sort of
as a metaphor, imagine the mosttranquil place on the planet,
(49:56):
the place that we see onInstagram reels. And long to be
so maybe it's Tahiti. I've neverbeen to Tahiti, but I've never
seen a bad picture of Tahiti. Imean the beautiful, clear
waters. So imagine that. Firstof all, we meet a Tahitian.
Well, meeting a beautifulTahitian doesn't mean we've
arrived in Tahiti and but let'ssay we go one step beyond that.
(50:20):
Let's say we book a ticket.
Well, that doesn't mean we'rethere. Let's say we fly to the
capital city. Well, we'regetting closer now. We've
arrived on the island, but thatisn't still the destination.
Let's say that we check into thehotel, but we're stuck in the
lobby. We're still closer, butnot there. And then finally, we
end up on the beach, or in thoseyou know, beautiful bungalows on
(50:42):
stilts, putting our feet up,we've gotten there. I think
that's the journey of this lifeof surrendering to Jesus. More
and more I love in Matthew 201128 where he says, Come to me,
but he knows we don't get therewith the simple decision. We
don't get there by simplypraying the sinners prayer. We
(51:02):
arrive there daily. Daily wecome to greater rest, data.
Daily we come to to deepersecurity. Daily we learn to
abide in him. So the wholejourney of the Christian life is
one of formation. It is one ofyielding. It is one of
surrendering. We will surrender10,000 times 10,000 we will wave
(51:25):
the white flag over and overagain, and every time we wave
the white flag, we are findingdeeper rest for our souls. So
that means praying things likenot My will yours be done?
Search me and know me. Try myways and see if there be any
wicked thing within me. Make melie down in green pastures. It
(51:48):
is this journey of being formedunder the hand of God for His
glory and for His purpose. Butit has to begin somewhere,
right? So it begins with theidea that I'm tired, I'm burned
out, I'm worn out, or I'mreally, really close to this.
And there's only one safe placein the universe, and the place
(52:08):
is a person who says, Come tome. Well,
Joshua Johnson (52:14):
I love the come to me all who are weary and
heavy laden. So he's talkingabout his yoke is easy, His
burden is light. So his yoke issomething where you're going to
be pulled along towardssomething with Jesus. He's going
to take you on this journey. Sowhen I think of of rest, and I
(52:36):
think of formation, sometimes inmy head, I think of two separate
things, but they're really notright. They're they're the same.
They can be the same. So I thinkof formation of of like
apprenticeship, of what Jesuswas doing with his disciples.
They're walking on the journey,on the road, and during that
(52:56):
time, they're become, they'restarting to become more like
Jesus, as as they're on thisroad and journey. So then, how
does rest and formation andapprenticeship then look like,
like? What is that, that wholeInterplay for us to be formed
more like Jesus?
Terry Crist (53:13):
Yeah, I love how you put that. I need to take
some notes to remember that. AndI think you're absolutely right.
I think it's all one in thesame. It's being with him. It's
being present to Him, beingyielded to him, surrendered to
Him, allowing his will and wayto be done in and through us.
And I don't think we canseparate out any of these
(53:35):
things. It is just simply thelife that we've been called
into. And I think we need toknow that it's always going to
be a journey. I was talking onceto a young friend who had spent
a lot of time with EugenePeterson at the end of his life
in ministry. And of course, Ilove the way that Eugene puts
this verse in the message, areyou tired? Are you worn out? Are
(53:58):
you burned out on religion? Youknow, come to me and I'll teach
you how to get away. I'll teachyou how to recover your life. I
mean, just the language of that,to me, is both haunting and
compelling. It's hauntingbecause it exposes the fact that
we haven't done that, that we'veworked for Pharaoh, that we've
been a slave to Egypt, thatwe've tried to earn approval.
(54:20):
And it then is compelling,because it invites me into what
my soul really, really longsfor, and that is abiding in
Jesus. So in the conversationwith my young friend who had
spent a lot of time with Eugene,I said, so I just sort of had
the picture that he was freefrom striving, that he got to
(54:40):
that place, whatever that placeis, a friend laughed and said,
No, no. He was just mindful ofhis need for a rival, and he
lived his life. So I think inbeing formed, being shaped,
being becoming an apprentice,this is not something that we
master. Or it's what masters us.
And we live long and full andflourishing lives, and we come
(55:04):
to the end of our journey at,you know, 70 or 80 or, Oh, I
hope, 120 you know, on that lastday, we're still being formed in
his image. We're still learningto know Him and trust Him and
abide in Him, and that we haveall of eternity in the perfect
rest to be fully who we are andfully known as we are. So I
(55:25):
don't want us to see it as adestination. You know, Jesus is
the destination. It's not when Iget there, when I retire, when I
get these kids raised, when Iearn this or learn this. It is
just being on this journey, butnot a journey of running, a
journey of yielding, a journeyof arriving more and more each
(55:46):
and every day. Do you
Joshua Johnson (55:50):
think that that rest is harder for American
Christians than other Christiansaround the world? Do you think
that we I think this is what I'mthinking, we love our position
as a powerful empire, and wefeel like we have the power. And
if I stop working and strivingand I actually enter into rest,
(56:14):
I feel like we're going to loseour position, and somebody else
is going to catch up andovertake us as more powerful.
That's just in my head of like,oh, that may be something that
this is a particular pain pointfor American Christians compared
to the rest of the world. Andwhat do you think it's becoming
Terry Crist (56:36):
a universal condition? And so you certainly
have traveled the nations, andyou've lived abroad, and you've
mentored, ministered and builtfriendships with Muslims. So I
understand you know how thingshave changed and are changing in
the world. And as you weretalking, the thought I
immediately had was true.
Everything you're describing isabsolutely true. And Tiktok was
(56:59):
created in China. So there is,you know, the change in the
world today. I was in Pakistanabout, oh, 18 months, 24 months
ago, and I was up at the base ofk6 and k7 was on an excursion.
Was all by myself. Didn't haveanyone with me, and I was
surrounded by Pakistanis insmall, little village called
(57:21):
Conde village. And the amazingthing was that at the end of our
day, when we would come backfrom our excursion, we were all
staying in the home of one ofthese beautiful Pakistani
people. And in the evenings,they would get on their phones,
and they would scroll throughsocial media, and they would
show me reels, which, as anaside, I just sort of despise.
(57:42):
And so the memes, and so I'mlearning, I'm seeing memes that
I'm able to block out in Americabecause I'm controlling the
environment that I'm in, butthey're in in Pakistan, to be,
you know, social, to my myhosts, you know, I'm learning
all this stuff, and so it's auniversal condition. Now, some
(58:02):
of these things, clearly, arethe the product that we've
exported to the world, but we'reall trapped in this right now.
We all kind of have accepted theidea that we're insufficient,
we're inadequate, and thatthere's a better life to be and
it comes back to these holylongings, a better life to live.
(58:23):
These holy longings. I thinkthat Jesus is the universal
answer to the universal humancondition, and we're all
reaching this inflection pointwhich hopefully brings us to the
place where we see him as thesolution.
Joshua Johnson (58:40):
Amen. So Terry, what is your hope for your
readers of now you can stoprunning. What do you hope that
they would give? Well,
Terry Crist (58:47):
I'm going to hold up the book because apparently
that's the kind of thing we'resupposed to do down because I'm
not that guy. But yeah, I'll
Joshua Johnson (58:55):
hold up the book too. So just invitation.
Terry Crist (58:59):
It's an invitation, if you need an excuse to get off
the treadmill, if you need anexcuse to get off the hamster
wheel, if you need someone tosay you have permission, I have
invited the reader to runalongside biblical characters
all the through the Scripture.
My story is woven throughoutthis because I've I see myself
(59:21):
and every one of these runnersrunning from or toward
something, but I want them torun alongside these biblical
figures who have so much toteach us, and I want the reader
to become a part of this runningclub who realizes that the
arrival that we long for is in aperson, not a destination. So my
hope is that readers will pickit up, run with great heroes of
(59:45):
our faith, see the solutionsthat they're longing for, but
more importantly, find a placeof peace and abiding in Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (59:57):
That's good couple of recommendations from.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately you could
recommend,
Terry Crist (01:00:02):
Oh, wow. I don't know if you can see this
bookshelf over me, right here,with lots of books on there,
from NT Wright to my friendDerwin Gray, lit up with love. I
saw you did an interview with AJSwoboda, who is much younger
than me, but a professor, andthe the interview on a teachable
spirit, which I've got righthere on my book on my desk, and
(01:00:25):
Manny rangos new book on what isit called crushing chaos. You
know, I'm I'm reading everysingle day, learning and
becoming, because life is ajourney, but not a journey based
on striving, a journey basedupon being well,
Joshua Johnson (01:00:43):
you could go and get now you can stop running
anywhere books are sold. And soI would highly recommend going
to get it. It's a fantasticbook. And yeah, if you haven't
listened to our interview withTerry on loving Samaritans as
well, and you haven't gottenthat book, you should get both
of them because lovingSamaritans is fantastic read. I
(01:01:04):
loved it as well. So you coulddo that. But is there anywhere
else you'd like to point peopleto? How could they connect with
you? Or anything else you wantto point people to? They
Terry Crist (01:01:13):
can go to terrycris.com they could go to
YouTube and city of grace, whereI'm privileged to serve and
teach the Bible weekly. Andthey'll have an opportunity
there to continue to connect indeeper ways. Perfect,
Joshua Johnson (01:01:26):
well. Terry, thank you for this conversation.
Thank you for helping us godeeper into the rest and refuge
of God and that we could stoprunning from all of our ailments
and our things that we have, allthese longings that we do have,
that we're trying to figure outso desperately how to achieve
something that only Jesus cangive us, that only the solution,
(01:01:51):
the God of the universe, canactually be that solution. So
thank you for this. It was afantastic conversation. I loved
it.
Unknown (01:02:00):
God bless you, brother, thank you. You.
Sabbath is not the reward for six days of hard
(00:03):
work. Sabbath is the basis forsix days of productive work. So
if we can shift the mentalitywhere we're not seeing you know
this making me to lie down asGod being dissatisfied, but it's
the invitation into greaterproductivity, then it becomes
something I want, not somethingthat I resent. Hello and
Joshua Johnson (00:39):
welcome to the shifting culture podcast in
which we have conversationsabout the culture. About the
culture we create and the impactwe can make. We long to see the
body of Christ look like Jesus.
I'm your host. Joshua JohnsonTerry Christ is back on the
podcast. I am excited to havehim here. He is a seasoned
pastor and thoughtfulcommunicator, and has spent
years walking alongside people,observing the deep struggles
(01:02):
beneath the surface of our busylives, struggles like
loneliness, bitterness, angerand the relentless pursuit of
productivity that often leavesus exhausted. In this
conversation, Terry helps usrethink our relationship with
rest, inviting us to see Sabbathnot as a reward for our hard
work, but as the very foundationthat enables productive,
(01:23):
meaningful lives. We discuss theillusion of running towards
ambitions or away from pain, andhow true refuge is found only
when we anchor ourselves deeplyin God's perfect love. We also
explore the epidemic ofloneliness, the trap of
bitterness and thetransformative power of
forgiveness. Terry offers avision of life where
(01:46):
productivity flows naturallyfrom being deeply loved and
securely rested in God. Ifyou're feeling overwhelmed by
the relentless pace of life,wrestling with bitterness or
sensing a need for deeperspiritual rest. This episode
will help you pause, reflect andmove forward with renewed peace
and purpose. So join us as weshift our perspective and
(02:08):
discover the profound invitationof Jesus into rest, abundance
and true refuge. Here is myconversation with Terry. Christ.
Terry, welcome back to shiftingculture. Excited to have you
back on. Thanks for joining meagain. Thank
Terry Crist (02:24):
you, Joshua, it's great to be with you. I was
thinking right before we jumpedon today that you were my first
interviewer when I releasedloving Samaritans, and this is
my first interview for now youcan stop running so you get all
the raw, you get the unrefined,the unfinished and the stream of
consciousness, but thanks forhaving me. You're welcome.
Joshua Johnson (02:46):
You're welcome.
This would be good. Well, theworld does seem like an
overwhelming place at themoment, and I think there's a
lot of people that are dealingwith a lot of things through
through trauma and anxiety andguilt and bitterness, because
what's going on in this world,and they're running to something
or they're running fromsomething, where have you found
yourself in your past running toor running from something where
(03:11):
you said maybe the refuge of Godis probably the best place, but
I'm going to try and take solacein something else before I run
to God. Without
Terry Crist (03:25):
a doubt, I've done both in my life. I have run
toward things that were higherand more noble pursuits, at
least in my own rationale,things like Kingdom impact and
significance and a flourishingministry and people care, and
all of those things I do thinkare noble pursuits, but they're
(03:46):
not intended to be thedestination, nor are they the
things that really providesatisfaction of soul. And then,
on the other hand, I've run fromthings. I have run from pain and
from grief and from parts of myown story that I didn't want to
face, and what I've learned isthat both kinds of running will
wear you out, whether it'sambition or avoidance, if it's
(04:09):
not anchored in God's perfectlove, if it isn't centered in
Jesus, the only one who canprovide true and lasting refuge,
then It is but an illusion ofrest and refuge.
Joshua Johnson (04:22):
So people who believe in Jesus and have Holy
Spirit with them at all timesand know that there is a
constant presence of God in ourlife. Like God is not distant,
he's not far, but there's aconstant presence. Why do you
think that we don't payattention to that presence and
try to seek solace in otherthings.
Terry Crist (04:45):
Well, we live in a world of idols, idols of our
own, making these falsedestinations, these refuges. And
they're not just in the worldaround us. Clearly, they are
there, the things that peoplepursue, believing that. Going to
provide this sense of rest andsatisfaction of soul, but we
(05:05):
also have these things in thechurch. And just because you
pray a prayer of surrender andinvest faith in Jesus and go
through the waters of baptismdoesn't mean that your thinking
has completely been renewed. Infact, that's the journey. It's
the journey of formation. It'sthe journey of becoming like
Jesus. And I think a lot oftimes, people have sort of
(05:28):
traded one idol for another. Soin the Christian life, to your
point, we idolize busyness, weidolize productivity, we idolize
doing. And all these thingsbecome cheap and hollow
substitutes for what it means tobe loved and what it means to
abide and what it means to trulybe at rest in Jesus, and that's
(05:51):
what He invites us into, notexchanging one form of doing for
another, not exchanging oneambition for another, but
ceasing from our labors. I lovethis line that we hear in the
gospels, and I think itresonates with so many of us,
and particularly maybe withthose in ministry, where Jesus
says, Come to me those who areweary, and I will give you rest.
(06:15):
Well, he's saying that toIsrael, his disciples are
certainly in the mix of that. Sothese are people who had pursued
God and had known God, butsomehow that pursuit had become
the end and the goal, and notthe sense of arrival and abiding
in him. Pope
Joshua Johnson (06:33):
Francis, just passed away. You know, he has a
Jesuit background. One of thethings that I really like about
the Jesuits is they talk aboutbeing a contemplative in action,
like there is a there is a rest,and being with, with Jesus, but
actually, then being active inspiritual life, in ministry in
the world. How does that play apart? As you said, busyness can
(06:59):
be an idol, but then activeministry can actually be a good
thing. Where does thecontemplation or the rest and
the refuge of God play into apart of being active in ministry
and good things of this world?
Terry Crist (07:15):
I think for me, the question would be, what are we
operating from? The basis of,are we working from striving, or
are we working from rest? Sothere is this, as you say,
activity that is a part of thelife of the believer. Whether
you're a parent, there is thisparental activity. If you're on
(07:37):
mission in the marketplace,there is a business activity. We
all have this activity, but thequestion is whether or not that
we are working from thisfrenetic place, this frenzied
place, or we're working from aplace of rest, sense of knowing
that we're loved and we'reaccepted, that we've been chosen
(07:58):
by God and that we don't have toearn his approval, so the
outcome is going to be verydifferent. If I'm working to
gain approval, if I'm working tobe loved, then there's a
desperation in that, and thedesperation in that leads to a
life of frustration. But if I'mworking from the basis of I am
(08:19):
loved, therefore I want to loveothers well I am led. Therefore
I want to lead others well Iwork for the one who is
interested in productivity.
Jesus taught those parablescalling us to productivity.
Therefore, from that basis Iwant to be productive. So it
really depends upon what thecenter of your life is and from
what basis you were working. Youreferenced Pope Francis. I had
(08:42):
the opportunity to visit withhim in 2023 and in 2024 there in
his papal quarters, small cohortof pastors and leaders. And a
number of things struck me aboutthat encounter Joshua, but
nothing more than the fact thathe was fully engaged in
listening, and he had this, whathe called the apostolate of the
(09:06):
ear, the this commitment to deeplistening, to being really
present, whether he was talkingwith a world leader or an
ordinary pastor like us or evena child, he had this way being
in these moments. And I thinkyou can only do that if you know
that you are fully loved andfully accepted and you're at
peace with who you are. Thenfrom there, you can engage in a
(09:28):
way that is productive. So theChristian life calls us to the
right ordering of ourpriorities, and our priorities
must be working from rest,working from love, working from
acceptance, and from there, thendoing the work of the Kingdom.
Joshua Johnson (09:48):
As you've been walking with people in pastoral
ministry, have you seen anyshift or change of the pain
points in people's life? Whatare the like? Main. Major pain
points that people are goingthrough now and maybe earlier in
your ministry life, you didn'tactually see it as much. What
(10:09):
are the things that are poppingnow as pain points? I
Terry Crist (10:12):
would answer that a couple of ways. First of all, I
think the issues at the surfacechange, but the fundamental
human needs remain the same. Sothe fundamental need for love,
for acceptance, for affirmation,for significance, for purpose,
those things are eternal. Theseare the holy longings that we
(10:33):
have within ourselves, longingsfor transcendence and for a
spiritual connection, for anexistence outside of our own
head in the world. So that thenchanges over time. How do we in
an age of social media speak tothose fundamental issues, and
then, of course, throughouttime, some of those issues,
(10:54):
those those bigger, deeperissues, tend to maybe raise
above the other. So lonelinesswould be one. Right now, we're
in a global epidemic ofloneliness, and it's not just
simply, you know, with peoplewho we might consider to be far
from God, but people who are apart of our spiritual
communities are passing eachother and not really, genuinely
(11:16):
connecting. So I thinkloneliness is something I would
highlight as being a verysignificant issue. It's hard to
provide a sense of connectionthat brings others out of
loneliness into being loved andseen and heard if we haven't
been there, themselves,ourselves. So I think you know,
(11:37):
the first work that we alwayshave to do is the personal work,
the soul work, the sense ofsitting at the feet of Jesus for
ourselves as husbands and wivesand leaders and business people
and educators and athletes andentertainers and whatever we
have to do this first work ofbeing present to Jesus, being
(11:58):
loved by Jesus, and then fromthat we can communicate with a
robustness what that looks like,and invite others into that
reality as well. I
Joshua Johnson (12:08):
do think loneliness is a big element of
our time. I mean, just thisweekend that we're recording
this thunderbolts, this newMarvel movie came out, and it
was all about loneliness anddepression and feeling isolated,
and that the only thing thatactually helped this villain
(12:29):
that was making people gotowards the void of depression
and loneliness was a communityof people around them. It was,
it's a strange thing to say,hey, this, this crazy comic book
movie, is going to actuallyspeak to the ailment of our age,
which is this lonelinessepidemic, and they're trying to
(12:50):
find answers to it. As somebodywho knows that there is presence
with Jesus, and he is closerthan anybody could ever be to
us? What do you think that wecan start to do to help in this
loneliness epidemic? You did saythat, you know, we can't force
any connection. We can't forcethat. But what are some of the
(13:14):
things that we can do to helppeople move towards refuge?
Terry Crist (13:18):
I think first and foremost, we can live lives of
invitation, lives that are open,lives that are hospitable, and
that often means that we slowdown just a beat, that we walk a
little slower through our days.
We're a little more observant ofthe lives of the people around
us, whether that's in a grocerystore, you know, picking cereal,
(13:39):
a box of cereal, off the shelfnext to someone, there. Just
these moments of opportunityallow us to live these lives of
hospitality and invitation. AndI think that it's really
important for all of us to dothat. An extra moment at the end
of the day with your kids can goa long way. An extra moment in
the morning with a husband orwife, a spouse, before you go
(14:02):
about your day, a pastor walkingthrough the lobby of the church
just a little slower. And I wantto be really clear that I'm
speaking as a learner. I'mspeaking as a practitioner. I am
still in process, and I livethis sort of life, and by by
nature, I'm sort of hardwired tojust put my head down and just
(14:25):
go about getting the job done.
But sometimes the job isn't thejob. Sometimes it's seeing
people and acknowledging peopleand having conversations with
people. There are a lot ofpeople in the world today who
don't open up quickly andeasily. And the fact is, we have
a couple of kids that way. Ihave three sons, and two of the
(14:47):
three open up slowly. The oldestson comes out of the gate hot
every single morning. So they'reall men. Now they're grown up,
but back when they wereteenagers at home, I mean, from
the moment his eyes opened. Hewas in this high verbal stream
of consciousness without withoutpause, without beat. And then
(15:08):
our other sons tend to wake upslower throughout the day and
really come alive about the timethat my day is over. And my wife
was always better at this, juststaying up a little longer,
being present a little more. AndI learned through watching her
that people open up at their ownpace. What I don't want to have
happen Joshua is to miss themoment when they might open up.
(15:33):
So we have to linger. We've gotto stay there. And if if they
open up a little quicker, great.
If not, then let's not miss thatopportunity and invite them into
community. There are a lot ofpeople in the world today that
are lonely only because no one'sreached out, no one's invited
them, no one's come along andsaid, Hey, why don't you join me
at my home group? Why don't you,you know, I'd love to have a
(15:54):
coffee with you. You know, justthose sorts of simple things
that we take for granted,especially within the community
of faith, are, in fact, verynovel for many people in the
world today who don't haveexposure to that sort of
invitation and hospitality andconcern,
Joshua Johnson (16:14):
one of the things that that loneliness can
do is move us towards bitternessbecause we have been isolated
and maybe even hurt. And one ofyour chapters, you talk running
with scissors, you're talkingabout from bitterness to
forgiveness. I think forgivenessis the secret sauce of our
(16:36):
spiritual life, like it helps usremove the chains that are
encapsulating us throughwhatever unforgiveness that we
do have, and that bitternessholds us back to engaging with
others in the world, toconnecting with other people, to
moving forward. Where did yousee that in Scripture? What's a
(16:56):
good example for us to move frombitterness to forgiveness, and
what does that look like?
Terry Crist (17:02):
Well, if I could just start with the idea that I
believe there is a power innaming things. So grace comes
on. What we face, what we name,what we kind of square up to,
the more unsightly parts of oursouls that really need to be
brought into the light of God'spresence. By naming those
(17:22):
things, we can really begin toapply or make space for the
grace of God to be present tothem. So there's a long list of
runners in the scripture, and Ithink it sort of sits in this
thesis I have, that we're allrunning from something or to
something. We're all coming fromunmet needs, unhealed wounds, or
(17:43):
we're in pursuit of a betterlife. So whether you're a
sprinter or a marathoner, we'reall running towards something in
life. And for some people, theyare driven by that sense of
unforgiveness, that sense ofbitterness. Bitterness never
starts off as bitterness. Itstarts off as a wound, an
(18:03):
offense, a hurt that isoftentimes justified, and when
we add justification to the painof being wounded, then it
becomes something more. So, ifI'm hurt and I can address that
in a space of honesty, then Ihave a great, high opportunity,
(18:25):
a likelihood of seeing ithealed. But when I double down
and begin to justify it, butthey did, they met, they
intended people always, and Ibegin to, you know, load it with
that, then I end up in asituation where that something
such as a wound, becomesunforgiveness, which then
metastasizes into being bitterthis and when bitterness is
(18:46):
present, it springs up anddefiles many, as Hebrew says, so
we see this all through theScripture. We see it with Cain
in the very beginning. We see itwith Absalom. We see
opportunities, even in Peter'slife, in the gospels, you know,
he had an opportunity to turn toforgiveness or to turn to
bitterness. So this is a commonissue. The issue that we all
(19:10):
face, the beauty of the gospel,is that there is provision for
that. Jesus is committed toloving through us when we don't
find love within ourselves, andhe is committed to forgiving
through us. When we don't findforgiveness within ourselves,
and when we allow forgiveness toflow through us, then the
(19:31):
residue of forgiveness begins toform and shape our soul. And
over time, the sting offorgiveness is gone.
Unforgiveness is gone. It's notthat we forget what was done to
us, but that sting, that bitter,bitter pain, is no longer
present in our lives. You
Joshua Johnson (19:47):
know, I always find it fascinating that we in
America, where I am now lookingat this through an
individualistic lens, like, whatis it about me? You know, when I
lived in the Middle East. Ilooked at it through a communal
lens, like so what is, what isthe offense that that this
tribe, this family of people,had, and why they have
(20:11):
bitterness and unforgiveness,and so there's feuding across
tribal groups and family groupsand collective groups of people.
I know, you've you've traveledthe world, you've seen a lot of
different cultures. How couldthis start to help moving from
towards forgiveness in a morecommunal setting, and in a
(20:35):
communal culture where there'sgroups of people that are
fighting and angry at eachother. Because there's an in
group and there's an out group,there's there's bitterness and
offense on one side, and so thiswhole group is angry at each
other. I
Terry Crist (20:51):
think it always starts with a single individual.
And I'll look in the mirror andsay, it all starts with me. You
know, someone has to be willingto lay down their weapons.
Someone has to be willing torisk rejection, someone has to
be willing to extend the olivebranch of peace. It all starts
with someone, and that may besomeone in a family. Today, we
(21:14):
can talk about it, you know,here at the meta level, we can
talk about this, you know, as aglobal issue, and it's true,
we're in an age of outrage.
We're in an age where people arejust, you know, on the verge of
going off for any reason. Andthese are just the surface
expressions of these deeperissues that we're talking about
(21:35):
here today. But it's present intribes, it's present in
communities, and it's present infamilies. And at some point we
have to set the tone. And thisis what people of faith do. This
is what followers of Jesus do,where we say, Okay, we're going
to set the tone here forcivility and for compassion and
for conversation. And it reallycomes out of a revelation of who
(21:59):
Jesus is and what Jesus did, andhow he lived his life in the
gospels, and how that his lifedidn't end in failure. But his
model is the model for our livestoday. And if you look at Jesus
through the lens of, well, thatdidn't work, you know, then of
course, you're going to useweapons to try and accomplish
your own ends. But if you lookat the life and set of Jesus and
(22:22):
say it worked, it meant layingdown his life, but it worked. So
starting with me, what can I doto say I'm going to be the
change that the world needs. I'mgoing to be the individual that
starts this conversation, thatextends the olive branch that
lays down my weapons and startslistening, and that can feel
(22:44):
very, very risky, because one ofthe things we also experience in
today's world is this level ofdefensiveness. You know, it's
not just outrage, but it'sdefensiveness. It is based in
fear. And I found that, youknow, when we talk about this
idea of rest, sometimes it makesus feel unsafe. When we talk
(23:04):
about this idea of peace andsafety, it makes us feel unsafe.
And so when it comes to running,we think, if we stop, then the
monsters are going to catch upwith us. If we don't fight, then
the monsters are going toovertake us. So we live in this
posture, and I'm inviting peopleto step out of that, to come
home to Jesus, to to community,to faith, and there begin to be
(23:28):
what is needed in the communityaround you. Fear
Joshua Johnson (23:35):
is, is often the the place of, you know,
defensiveness. So then you saidthat these, these issues, are
not really the surface levelissues. They're the questions
people are asking underneath thesurface. And I think
defensiveness would would be infear would be like saying, No,
it actually is just the surface.
There's nothing underneathwhat's going on. It's just, I
(23:57):
need to solve whatever thesurface is and everything will
be okay. How do leaders,pastors, communicators, even
business leaders, who have todeal with people all the time,
how do people get beneath thesurface to actually know what
the issue really is, that it'snot just the surface level, but
there is something underneath.
(24:20):
What are some tips that you havefound to get under the surface,
Terry Crist (24:24):
I think asking yourself really strategic
questions. You know, why am Ifeeling this way? Why am I
reacting this way? Might I bewrong in the situation? Might
there be another viewpoint thatis equally, if not more valid,
really, really being willing toask ourselves the kind of
questions, rather than doublingdown in our behavior. I know
(24:48):
this is perhaps a bitsimplified, simplistic and but
at the risk ofoversimplification, I think so
much of what we see in the worldtoday is the result of scarcity
thinking. Me. So when I livefrom the mindset of scarcity,
then that postures me. You know,completely different than if I
(25:08):
lived from the mindset ofabundance. And Walter
Brueggemann helped me a lot onthis, and I think he helped me
for a couple of reasons. Numberone, he's an Old Testament
scholar. He is not a teleevangelist. So when he talks
about abundance, it's not to getsomething from you, and it's not
formulaic, it's formational. Andso he has written extensively
(25:29):
about this idea of scarcitythinking and I think in our own
lives, whether it's financialleaders or parents or even
spiritual leaders, when when weare afraid of not having enough
when we are looking at lifethrough the lens of scarcity.
Then, of course, we're going tobe defensive, and we're going to
(25:49):
live in this posture that isantagonistic because we're
fighting for what we we feellike we're missing. But on the
other hand, if we realize thatwhat we have is not only enough,
it is more than enough, becausewhat we have is a person. We
have, the person who is thesummation of life, who has the
(26:11):
answers to life, who has allthat life needs and and longs
for. And so if I live connectedto that source, then I don't
have to be afraid of not havingenough and not being enough. And
if I can just come to to realizethat it's going to change a lot
in my life, I don't need to fearnot having enough. Therefore I
(26:32):
don't have to fight and competefor resources. I always have
enough. And
Joshua Johnson (26:37):
I think when, when I think of scarcity, I
think it's opposite ofconnection being connected. We
really need to have more of aconnected type of worldview,
that there is enough for all ofus in this world that I think it
would stop us from trying to runtowards things and run away from
(26:58):
things. And we could actually befirm and stand firm in our
dependence on God and eachother, and we could connect.
Well, how did we miss thisconnected worldview? What
happened? It started in thegarden, and then what? What
happened over time that we'velost this connection and this
(27:19):
way of connecting with eachother.
Terry Crist (27:21):
I think first and foremost, this sense of
abundance comes out of ourrelationship with God, and there
in the garden, it was severedthat life giving relationship we
had with the author of life. Sowe immediately, as a species,
move into the deficit. Weimmediately begin working from a
(27:43):
place of scarcity, and we seethat framed in Adam and Eve's
original language there in theconversation between the serpent
and Eve as he introduces thissense of you're missing
something. God's keeping youfrom your full potential. You
know he doesn't want you tomeasure up and live up. And
then, of course, from there, wesee separation working
(28:06):
throughout the human condition.
So Joshua sort of baked into us,sort of wired into us. We aren't
born with an abundancementality. We're born with this
scarcity mentality. And I thinkapart from a life giving
relationship with Jesus, we liveit now. We may fill it from time
to time with possessions andwith accomplishments, but deep
(28:30):
within the human condition,there are these holy longings.
And these longings come fromscarcity. These longings come
from disconnection. So thedisconnection issue is resolved
first of all in our relationshipwith God vertically. But we also
know from God that we need morethan just to exist in friendship
with God. We need to exist infriendship within the human
(28:53):
community. And of course, we seethat modeled in the triune
godhead, thisinterconnectedness, this, this
mutual submission, this thiscommunal, you know, depiction,
and it's really the model forhow we're to live our lives in
connected, being connected withGod and with each other.
(29:14):
Scarcity
Joshua Johnson (29:16):
mindset, it goes into our relationship with time
that we think that time isscarce and we don't have enough
time, and so we're constantlyrunning to keep up. You, you
admittedly said that you werelike Alexander Hamilton. You're
non stop, that you're trying tokeep up, right? And I think a
lot of us are. I joke aroundthat my, you know, my son's only
(29:38):
seven, but we constantly jokethat he's like Alexander
Hamilton. He's non stop. But youwrite in your book that you
finally come to this place ofyou think that you actually have
enough time. What? What hasshifted? How? What is our
relationship with time and howdoes, how do we actually situace
ourselves in our good way? Workwith time?
Terry Crist (30:02):
Yeah, well, I want to be very clear that I've
written this book as a learner,as a practitioner. I am not a
therapist. I'm a pastor. I lovepeople, I live with people, I
serve people, and it's really myhighest goal in life. I have
friends, in fact, even familymembers who've laughed about the
fact that I am the most unlikelycandidate to be writing a book
(30:25):
about rest, but I think so muchof our lives and the deepest
wells in our lives, and the mostgenuine help that we offer to
others often comes out of ourown need, out of our own deficit
and awareness of that need andhow we're processing that need.
So you're right. For me, afterdecades of ministry and
(30:48):
leadership and running hard, Ibegan to realize that if I
didn't care for my own Soul,that no one else would. And I
began to realize thatfundamentally, I was tired to
the bone, and I'm not the onlyone. I think people everywhere
are profoundly tired. We talkabout rest like it's a luxury,
(31:08):
but in reality, it is anecessity, and it's a biblical
command. So I wanted to createsomething that gave people
permission to stop running, thatinvited them to rest, not
because they've arrived, butbecause that God's love is
sufficient. And to yourquestion, in my own life, I
(31:29):
think that in my running,whether and I've run from a lot
of things, so I've run, youknow, toward kingdom, impact and
toward significance and towardapproval, hoping that if I were
a more effective leader, I wouldfeel secure and and then I've
run away from things. I've runfrom pain and from grief and
(31:50):
from parts of my own story thatI didn't want to face. And I've
discovered that whether we'rerunning from ambition or
avoidance, the answer is reallyanchored in God's perfect love.
So I'm in process. I'm gettingto the point you've described.
I'm more at peace. I'm more atrest. But then again, it's a
(32:11):
daily thing, right? So just likewe take up our cross daily to
follow Jesus, we also enter intoHis rest daily. So I don't want
to give the impression to anyonethat man, Terry mastered it,
wrote the book, and now he's theexpert. I'm I'm not, I'm not an
expert, but I'm processing this,and the key to it is abiding in
(32:34):
the love of God. The morepresent I am to the love of God,
the more at content, morecontent. My spirit is more at
rest. My heart is and morerestful I am.
Joshua Johnson (32:44):
So there's this dichotomy for me, that God is
outside of time. God is love,and we're resting the love of
God, but we are. We're inside oftime. We have, we have limits in
our human life and our ability,and we need rest, but we, we do
want to. We're made in the imageof God. It's, it feels like this
(33:05):
tension to me. Of All right, Godis so far outside of time that
there's rest in Him, but then weare in time. How do we? How do
we deal with this time issuewhen it comes to our
relationship with God andresting in that, yeah,
Terry Crist (33:22):
that there's a great tension in that, and I
appreciate you highlighting thatbecause the psalmist teaches us
to number our days. So there isa weighing and evaluating that
we need to do as it relates toproductivity, as it relates to
the fruitfulness of our lives.
God wants us to be fruitful. Hewants our lives to bear abundant
fruit so that others can eatfrom it and be nourished. He
(33:45):
wants our days to Jesus gave usthese parables, right, these
stewardship parables, where heleaves on us the impression that
we need to multiply and thenight is coming when no man can
work. So all of that is wrappedup in what you've described
there. I think what I'm tryingto get to is the difference
between working from rest,working from acceptance, working
(34:10):
from a place of being at peacewith God, versus trying to earn
those things. So there is theactivity of the Christian life,
where that we are discipling andwe're serving and we're building
and we're partnering with Jesusand remaking the world. Wow,
what a huge idea that is, thatwe would be privileged to have
(34:32):
friendship with God, inpartnership with God in the
shaping of the world based uponthe resurrection of Jesus and
him being seated as King andLord of all. That's mind
blowing, and that feels like alot. So I can attempt to
accomplish that through strivingand through drivenness and
through all of the toxicity thatcomes with, you know, becoming a
(34:56):
slave to m. Empire working forPharaoh unceasing rest, or, on
the other hand, I can enter intothe rest of God and partner with
him and do those things from aseated place. So that's what I'm
trying to get to in all of this.
Is, what are we coming from?
What basis are we serving andleading and making and
(35:19):
recreating from and if we'redoing that from rest, then we're
much more effective in whatwe're doing. God is much more
glorified, and our work itselfis much more complete. It
reminds
Joshua Johnson (35:34):
me of Psalm 23 at the beginning, it says that
God makes me lie down in greenpastures. So he makes me stop
for my running. He's like, I'mgoing to actually sit you down.
You're going to do this. It'snot just a it should be a
choice. It is a choice that Ihave. But God's heart and desire
(35:55):
is rest, even in the midst ofour enemies, even in the midst
of the valley of the shadow ofdeath, he wants rest. It's
beautiful, but he's he's tryingto get us to this place. I love
Psalm 23 I
Terry Crist (36:13):
did too. I live in that, and during times of
anxiety and frustration andtension, I go right back to
that, and I love the fact thatyou know, God does bring us into
situations. You know, maybe forsome of your listeners and
viewers, it may be that they'vecome to the realization of their
need for deep soul rest overtime. But for others, it may be
(36:36):
that God has allowed conditionsin their life to interrupt their
striving and they're running.
And when he does that, aspainful as that is, that's
really a gift. You know, when ashepherd says to the sheep, you
need to rest. You know, if we'dbeen taught that we have to work
to earn God's approval, thenrest can feel like punishment.
It can feel like displeasure,but when we understand that rest
(36:59):
is the invitation to abide inGod, to be deeply connected to
Jesus, so that we're moreproductive, right? So that
that's what it is. Sabbath isnot the reward for six days of
hard work. Sabbath is the basisfor six days of productive work.
So if we can shift the mentalitywhere we're not seeing, you
(37:23):
know, this making me to lie downas God being dissatisfied, but
it's the invitation into greaterproductivity, then it becomes
something I want, not somethingthat I resent. In today's
Joshua Johnson (37:37):
culture, you there's a lot of polarization,
but there's a lot of anger onall sides. People are angry at
each other. You know, as youwalk through your your chapter
around anger, you walk throughthe story of Moses, and I think
that's a great picture of whatit looks like to say, Okay, I
(37:59):
might have a calling here now,and God wants me to do
something, but I don't know howto channel it. I'm channeling it
out of anger, right? He he goes,the first thing he does is he
murders somebody like it, out ofanger of hey, now I'm trying to
be with my people that I haven'tbeen with before. I've been in
this court of Egypt, and I'mtrying to be with it the Jewish
(38:23):
people now, and there'sinjustice. So I have anger. We
see a lot of injustice. We see alot of things in our culture
that are really difficult. Howdo we not run towards anger in
the middle of all of it? Or howdo we reframe anger into
righteous anger that actuallyhelps and doesn't hurt.
Terry Crist (38:44):
I love the story of Moses, and I think the older I
get, the more I relate to Moses.
And obviously, in my 20s, man,it was all about Joshua. We were
the Joshua generation. And, youknow, it's all about Joshua and
that 60 now I'm really startingto connect more with Moses. One
of the things I see in this ideaof running there is that the
years and the miles don'tnaturally make us softer. They
(39:07):
only make us harder. We onlybecome softer. And by softer, I
don't mean weaker, but Meekerand more pliable and teachable
by doing the work that we needto do, the work in God's
presence, the work in the word,the work of interacting in
community, maybe even the workof therapy and of counseling.
(39:28):
But we we need to do the deepsoul work, because that's what
interrupts the cycles. When Iwas reading the story of Moses,
I began to see his story as apicture of cognitive loops that
we can get stuck in, where wejust run in these circles, and
it's the hamster on the wheeljust running and running and
running, and we need somethingto get us off that wheel. So
(39:50):
from Moses, he ends up, asyou've you've described, you
know, out of Pharaoh's chord,he's on the backside of the
desert. But he's still Moses.
He's still fundamentally trappedin these cognitive loops and in
the struggle and in thisdisposition toward anger. He has
an encounter with God and comesto know God as the one who is
(40:13):
gracious and kind and longsuffering. And I love. When God
reveals Himself, He says, I amwho I am. But let me tell you
who I am. I am gracious, and I'mkind. And God starts with that
sort of language, which musthave been shocking to Moses, and
so from there, Moses then beginsto to allow that to work within
(40:34):
his life. And he still has thistension he loves God's people.
Then he's hacked off on Mondaymorning after church services
didn't go well. He, he, youknow, all of these things are a
part of his life, but the ideaof anger in Moses's life is a
cautionary one, because I thinkanger is a sign of what we feel
(40:56):
unjust about, or what we feel isunjust in the world. But I think
we also can deceive ourselvesinto believing that our anger is
righteous and is justified.
God's anger is righteous andjustified, and I don't know that
my anger is always righteous andjustified, even when I see
injustice around me in theworld. So I've got to be very,
(41:19):
very careful, and I've got toask myself the question, okay, I
see what's happening in theworld, and I move toward the
need, but is anger the solutiontoward this? Or because that we
live in an age of outrage, andbecause it's so easy just to
yell and shout and then feelthat we've done something, what
if I take back that feeling ofoutrage and anger, let God feel
(41:43):
that, because it's legitimatefrom him, but for me, can I move
into a posture of kindness andmercy and generosity and being
long suffering and being helpfuland compassionate? And I think
that's really what I want tocall people to, because it's
just so easy to be angry andjustify it and then think it's
(42:04):
all righteous, and God alone isrighteous. And for us, we're to
embody his kindness and hisgenerosity and his compassion.
So
Joshua Johnson (42:17):
if we start to align our desires or our heart
to God's heart, and he's he hassome righteous anger. He knows
that what is happening in thisworld is unjust, and we are
moved to do something about itin this world, because we're
trying to actually have theheart of God in our lives.
(42:38):
What's then our responsibilityas we move towards injustice,
and then God's responsibilitywhat's what's ours to own and
what's God's to own in that,maybe
Terry Crist (42:51):
the better way of me putting this is that ours is
to act. Ours is to move towardthe hurting and the suffering
and the marginalized and thedisenfranchised and those who
have been abused ours isdefinitely to act but, but not
to to act with a sense of tryingto bring recompense, trying to
(43:11):
bring judgment, and that'sreally what I'm moving toward.
We can move towards solutions,and we should. We should be
engaged in the areas of society,but to be a solution oriented
people. And I think maybe, maybethere's some reaction in in me,
against the keyboard warriorsand the people that just scream,
you know, and the outrage thatcontinues to build to build to
(43:35):
build, to build. And, you know,we need somebody to interrupt
the cognitive loop. We needsomebody to say that there is a
measured approach act we mustbut let's do it through the the
intention of bringing aboutresolution in the human
condition, bringing the wisdomof heaven to bear, bringing, you
(43:57):
know, it's hard to be anadvocate if you're blinded by
your own anger. And those aresome of the terms that we use
about anger, right? So I don'tknow that we have a lot of
metaphors that that speak ofanger in a way that's healthy.
You know, we're outraged andwe're blinded by anger. I'm
inviting people to step awayfrom that and to take the things
that we're troubled by and toallow that to fuel us toward
(44:20):
engagement in a way that is kindand compassionate. I
Joshua Johnson (44:26):
hope so. I think we could engage kindly,
compassionately in the world,each other, defuse some of this
outrage, this anger, that we canactually be embodied presence of
Jesus, instead of just shoutinginto the ether and the void, or
shouting towards other people.
You know, sometimes when I do,am connected with God, and I'm
(44:48):
praying, and I'm starting to gethis heart. I think that when I
pray, that God is going to sendme somewhere, like I'm going to.
Get his heart. So I'm going toactually have to do something in
this world. Think about thestory of Jonah, where God sends
him to a place where I don'tlike these people. I don't want
(45:09):
to do this. I am very reluctant,but I'm going to go anyways. I'm
going to but I'm not going to behappy about it. How do we in
those situations? How do we getto the other side of that, where
we're in this like joyfuldelight with God, even if he's
(45:31):
asking us to do hard anddifficult things, and he will.
Terry Crist (45:40):
I was raised to believe that, you know, the
center of God's will was thesafest place to be. I discovered
it's actually the most dangerousplace to be. Jesus was at the
center of God's will, and he gothim crucified. So back to the
idea that I didn't coin theterm, but the myth of righteous
anger is a term that's beenused. You know, Jonah feels
(46:01):
that. Jonah feels justified. Youknow, first of all, he's the
reluctant prophet. You know, heruns away from God. I mean, he
goes to painstaking lengths toget away from the call of God,
and leaves and heads in theopposite direction of where he
should be going. And yet, Godintervenes, and the story then
(46:23):
continues with him reluctantlyaccepting the call of God. And
so he ends up in Nineveh, thisgreat city that God sends him to
pronounce judgment upon. And theremarkable thing was that he
didn't arrive in Nineveh with aturn or burn message. It was a
burn baby, burn message. Therewas no invitation to repentance
(46:45):
or surrender or turning, becauseGod was intent on destruction,
and Jonah is acting as hismouthpiece. And then, of course,
God's heart is moved. God seesthe contrition and the humility
and the repentance of thepeople, and when he does. Jonah
is outraged because he's holdingthe line. He's the one who is
(47:05):
angry on God's behalf, and nowGod seems to be acting unjust.
So Wow. What a moment there thatI can perceive God's justice to
be one thing only to discoverthat God, in His mercy, is
acting one way. And then I flipit and perceived God to be
unjust. So the beauty of allthis is that Jesus loved Jonah.
(47:26):
He references Jonah on more thanone occasion, and he gets it. He
gets how we can exist in thesesituations where we run from
Him. We're trapped by the mythof righteous anger. We don't
understand His mercy and thedepth of his kindness in Christ,
Jesus and so all this means thatwe are humans in process. What
(47:46):
do we do with it? Well, I thinkthat we live lives in such a way
that are yielded, that say, Notmy will, but Your will be done.
We live like Jesus, surrenderedto the point of the cross,
allowing God to love through us,allowing God's grace to flow
through us. And when we livethat way, that becomes the kind
(48:08):
of way that that createsconditions for God to work in
the lives of people who arearound us. I love. Jonah,
there's so much in that. And ofcourse, the outcome, the
repentance of the people, themercy of God on display, and
then the book abruptly ends. Wedon't know what happens with
Jonah. It just it just ends.
It's like in the middle of ActFour, the story is over. But I
(48:31):
think Jesus comes along as thebetter Jonah. So Jonah is not
really our model. Jesus is, andhe shows us what it means to
love people unconditionally.
Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (48:45):
he's the better Jonah. He is the new Moses. Like
we see all of this, that it'sthe Jesus is the culmination of
it, and he's the one that weactually need to follow and then
embody in the world. So whatdoes it then look like to run to
Jesus? What does it look like togo to him instead of running
(49:06):
away from things or runningtowards things that are not the
refuge of God? What does it looklike to run to Jesus?
Terry Crist (49:13):
I think it's a process, but a process that
begins when we become aware ofour need to find rest within
him. I think the world is filledwith false refuges, temporary
refuges, the refuge of power andprestige in the sense of having
arrived in what we have learnedand acquired. But I think the
(49:35):
deeper refuge is in Jesus. Infact, I know the deeper refuge
is in him. And we come to thatsometimes progressively. So I
was just thinking about the ideathis morning that if, when I
talk about finding rest inJesus, if we could just sort of
as a metaphor, imagine the mosttranquil place on the planet,
(49:56):
the place that we see onInstagram reels. And long to be
so maybe it's Tahiti. I've neverbeen to Tahiti, but I've never
seen a bad picture of Tahiti. Imean the beautiful, clear
waters. So imagine that. Firstof all, we meet a Tahitian.
Well, meeting a beautifulTahitian doesn't mean we've
arrived in Tahiti and but let'ssay we go one step beyond that.
(50:20):
Let's say we book a ticket.
Well, that doesn't mean we'rethere. Let's say we fly to the
capital city. Well, we'regetting closer now. We've
arrived on the island, but thatisn't still the destination.
Let's say that we check into thehotel, but we're stuck in the
lobby. We're still closer, butnot there. And then finally, we
end up on the beach, or in thoseyou know, beautiful bungalows on
(50:42):
stilts, putting our feet up,we've gotten there. I think
that's the journey of this lifeof surrendering to Jesus. More
and more I love in Matthew 201128 where he says, Come to me,
but he knows we don't get therewith the simple decision. We
don't get there by simplypraying the sinners prayer. We
(51:02):
arrive there daily. Daily wecome to greater rest, data.
Daily we come to to deepersecurity. Daily we learn to
abide in him. So the wholejourney of the Christian life is
one of formation. It is one ofyielding. It is one of
surrendering. We will surrender10,000 times 10,000 we will wave
(51:25):
the white flag over and overagain, and every time we wave
the white flag, we are findingdeeper rest for our souls. So
that means praying things likenot My will yours be done?
Search me and know me. Try myways and see if there be any
wicked thing within me. Make melie down in green pastures. It
(51:48):
is this journey of being formedunder the hand of God for His
glory and for His purpose. Butit has to begin somewhere,
right? So it begins with theidea that I'm tired, I'm burned
out, I'm worn out, or I'mreally, really close to this.
And there's only one safe placein the universe, and the place
(52:08):
is a person who says, Come tome. Well,
Joshua Johnson (52:14):
I love the come to me all who are weary and
heavy laden. So he's talkingabout his yoke is easy, His
burden is light. So his yoke issomething where you're going to
be pulled along towardssomething with Jesus. He's going
to take you on this journey. Sowhen I think of of rest, and I
(52:36):
think of formation, sometimes inmy head, I think of two separate
things, but they're really notright. They're they're the same.
They can be the same. So I thinkof formation of of like
apprenticeship, of what Jesuswas doing with his disciples.
They're walking on the journey,on the road, and during that
(52:56):
time, they're become, they'restarting to become more like
Jesus, as as they're on thisroad and journey. So then, how
does rest and formation andapprenticeship then look like,
like? What is that, that wholeInterplay for us to be formed
more like Jesus?
Terry Crist (53:13):
Yeah, I love how you put that. I need to take
some notes to remember that. AndI think you're absolutely right.
I think it's all one in thesame. It's being with him. It's
being present to Him, beingyielded to him, surrendered to
Him, allowing his will and wayto be done in and through us.
And I don't think we canseparate out any of these
(53:35):
things. It is just simply thelife that we've been called
into. And I think we need toknow that it's always going to
be a journey. I was talking onceto a young friend who had spent
a lot of time with EugenePeterson at the end of his life
in ministry. And of course, Ilove the way that Eugene puts
this verse in the message, areyou tired? Are you worn out? Are
(53:58):
you burned out on religion? Youknow, come to me and I'll teach
you how to get away. I'll teachyou how to recover your life. I
mean, just the language of that,to me, is both haunting and
compelling. It's hauntingbecause it exposes the fact that
we haven't done that, that we'veworked for Pharaoh, that we've
been a slave to Egypt, thatwe've tried to earn approval.
(54:20):
And it then is compelling,because it invites me into what
my soul really, really longsfor, and that is abiding in
Jesus. So in the conversationwith my young friend who had
spent a lot of time with Eugene,I said, so I just sort of had
the picture that he was freefrom striving, that he got to
(54:40):
that place, whatever that placeis, a friend laughed and said,
No, no. He was just mindful ofhis need for a rival, and he
lived his life. So I think inbeing formed, being shaped,
being becoming an apprentice,this is not something that we
master. Or it's what masters us.
And we live long and full andflourishing lives, and we come
(55:04):
to the end of our journey at,you know, 70 or 80 or, Oh, I
hope, 120 you know, on that lastday, we're still being formed in
his image. We're still learningto know Him and trust Him and
abide in Him, and that we haveall of eternity in the perfect
rest to be fully who we are andfully known as we are. So I
(55:25):
don't want us to see it as adestination. You know, Jesus is
the destination. It's not when Iget there, when I retire, when I
get these kids raised, when Iearn this or learn this. It is
just being on this journey, butnot a journey of running, a
journey of yielding, a journeyof arriving more and more each
(55:46):
and every day. Do you
Joshua Johnson (55:50):
think that that rest is harder for American
Christians than other Christiansaround the world? Do you think
that we I think this is what I'mthinking, we love our position
as a powerful empire, and wefeel like we have the power. And
if I stop working and strivingand I actually enter into rest,
(56:14):
I feel like we're going to loseour position, and somebody else
is going to catch up andovertake us as more powerful.
That's just in my head of like,oh, that may be something that
this is a particular pain pointfor American Christians compared
to the rest of the world. Andwhat do you think it's becoming
Terry Crist (56:36):
a universal condition? And so you certainly
have traveled the nations, andyou've lived abroad, and you've
mentored, ministered and builtfriendships with Muslims. So I
understand you know how thingshave changed and are changing in
the world. And as you weretalking, the thought I
immediately had was true.
Everything you're describing isabsolutely true. And Tiktok was
(56:59):
created in China. So there is,you know, the change in the
world today. I was in Pakistanabout, oh, 18 months, 24 months
ago, and I was up at the base ofk6 and k7 was on an excursion.
Was all by myself. Didn't haveanyone with me, and I was
surrounded by Pakistanis insmall, little village called
(57:21):
Conde village. And the amazingthing was that at the end of our
day, when we would come backfrom our excursion, we were all
staying in the home of one ofthese beautiful Pakistani
people. And in the evenings,they would get on their phones,
and they would scroll throughsocial media, and they would
show me reels, which, as anaside, I just sort of despise.
(57:42):
And so the memes, and so I'mlearning, I'm seeing memes that
I'm able to block out in Americabecause I'm controlling the
environment that I'm in, butthey're in in Pakistan, to be,
you know, social, to my myhosts, you know, I'm learning
all this stuff, and so it's auniversal condition. Now, some
(58:02):
of these things, clearly, arethe the product that we've
exported to the world, but we'reall trapped in this right now.
We all kind of have accepted theidea that we're insufficient,
we're inadequate, and thatthere's a better life to be and
it comes back to these holylongings, a better life to live.
(58:23):
These holy longings. I thinkthat Jesus is the universal
answer to the universal humancondition, and we're all
reaching this inflection pointwhich hopefully brings us to the
place where we see him as thesolution.
Joshua Johnson (58:40):
Amen. So Terry, what is your hope for your
readers of now you can stoprunning. What do you hope that
they would give? Well,
Terry Crist (58:47):
I'm going to hold up the book because apparently
that's the kind of thing we'resupposed to do down because I'm
not that guy. But yeah, I'll
Joshua Johnson (58:55):
hold up the book too. So just invitation.
Terry Crist (58:59):
It's an invitation, if you need an excuse to get off
the treadmill, if you need anexcuse to get off the hamster
wheel, if you need someone tosay you have permission, I have
invited the reader to runalongside biblical characters
all the through the Scripture.
My story is woven throughoutthis because I've I see myself
(59:21):
and every one of these runnersrunning from or toward
something, but I want them torun alongside these biblical
figures who have so much toteach us, and I want the reader
to become a part of this runningclub who realizes that the
arrival that we long for is in aperson, not a destination. So my
hope is that readers will pickit up, run with great heroes of
(59:45):
our faith, see the solutionsthat they're longing for, but
more importantly, find a placeof peace and abiding in Jesus.
Joshua Johnson (59:57):
That's good couple of recommendations from.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately you could
recommend,
Terry Crist (01:00:02):
Oh, wow. I don't know if you can see this
bookshelf over me, right here,with lots of books on there,
from NT Wright to my friendDerwin Gray, lit up with love. I
saw you did an interview with AJSwoboda, who is much younger
than me, but a professor, andthe the interview on a teachable
spirit, which I've got righthere on my book on my desk, and
(01:00:25):
Manny rangos new book on what isit called crushing chaos. You
know, I'm I'm reading everysingle day, learning and
becoming, because life is ajourney, but not a journey based
on striving, a journey basedupon being well,
Joshua Johnson (01:00:43):
you could go and get now you can stop running
anywhere books are sold. And soI would highly recommend going
to get it. It's a fantasticbook. And yeah, if you haven't
listened to our interview withTerry on loving Samaritans as
well, and you haven't gottenthat book, you should get both
of them because lovingSamaritans is fantastic read. I
(01:01:04):
loved it as well. So you coulddo that. But is there anywhere
else you'd like to point peopleto? How could they connect with
you? Or anything else you wantto point people to? They
Terry Crist (01:01:13):
can go to terrycris.com they could go to
YouTube and city of grace, whereI'm privileged to serve and
teach the Bible weekly. Andthey'll have an opportunity
there to continue to connect indeeper ways. Perfect,
Joshua Johnson (01:01:26):
well. Terry, thank you for this conversation.
Thank you for helping us godeeper into the rest and refuge
of God and that we could stoprunning from all of our ailments
and our things that we have, allthese longings that we do have,
that we're trying to figure outso desperately how to achieve
something that only Jesus cangive us, that only the solution,
(01:01:51):
the God of the universe, canactually be that solution. So
thank you for this. It was afantastic conversation. I loved
it.
Unknown (01:02:00):
God bless you, brother, thank you. You.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.