June 6, 2025 • 53 mins
What comes to mind when you hear “Holy Spirit”? For some of us, it’s confusion, baggage, or maybe just silence. We’ve either over-sensationalized it or under-taught it. But what if we’ve missed the depth and presence of the Spirit because we’ve skipped the beginning of the story? In this conversation, I talk with Margaret Feinberg about rediscovering the Holy Spirit - not just in Acts 2, but from the very beginning, hovering over the chaos in Genesis. Margaret invites us to see the Spirit not as some vague force that shows up only in ecstatic moments, but as a deeply personal, present, creative force that’s always been at work - in beauty, in community, in dreams, in discernment, in the ordinary and the extraordinary. We talk about how the Spirit empowers us for creativity, nudges us toward each other, and invites us to live attentive lives. We tell stories of the Spirit’s work across cultures and in everyday moments. So join us as we discover that the Holy Spirit is closer than air we breathe.
Margaret Feinberg, one of America’s most beloved Bible teachers, speaks at churches and conferences and hosts the popular podcast The Joycast. Her books and Bible studies, including Taste and See and More Power to You, have sold more than one million copies and received critical acclaim and national media coverage from the Associated Press, USA Today, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, and more. She was named by Christianity Today as one of fifty women most shaping culture and the church today. Margaret savors life with her husband, Leif, and their superpup, Zoom.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margaret Feinberg (00:00):
I want to I want to obey to those quick
(00:02):
promptings of the Spirit thatsay, Go, respond, apologize,
give, make it right. That'swhere the fruit and the joy and
the righteousness, the peace andthe delight is you.
Joshua Johnson (00:20):
Joshua, hello and welcome to the shifting
culture podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, what comes
to mind when you hear HolySpirit? Well, for some of us,
(00:40):
it's confusion or baggage ormaybe just silence. We've either
over sensationalized it or undertaught it. But what if we've
missed the depth and presence ofthe Spirit because we've skipped
the beginning of the story? Inthis conversation, I talked with
Margaret Feinberg aboutrediscovering the Holy Spirit,
not just in Acts two, but fromthe very beginning, hovering
(01:00):
over the chaos in Genesis.
Margaret invites us to see theSpirit not as some vague force
that shows up only in ecstaticmoments, but as a deeply
personal, present, creativeforce that's always been at work
in beauty, in community, indreams and discernment in the
ordinary and the extraordinary.
We talk about how the Spiritempowers us for creativity,
(01:21):
nudges us toward each other andinvites us to live attentive
lives. We tell stories of theSpirit's work across cultures
and in everyday moments. So joinus as we discover that the Holy
Spirit is closer than the air webreathe. Here is my conversation
with Margaret Feinberg.
Margaret, welcome to shiftingculture. Really excited to have
you on thanks for joining me.
(01:44):
What a delight to be with youtoday. I think we're going to
have a great conversation aroundHoly Spirit. I think Holy Spirit
is important, oftenmisunderstood. Why this now? Why
a book on the Holy Spirit? It'sa
Margaret Feinberg (02:00):
great question. I've been writing for
a number of years, and it wasactually agreed to write this
back in 2019 when we all hadgood ideas,
Joshua Johnson (02:10):
yes, and then God said, oh, let's shut it all
down for a bit.
Margaret Feinberg (02:16):
Let's just have a little things go a little
sideways in every direction. Andand so I've really struggled. I
knew I wanted to write a book onHoly Spirit, but it's, it's
like, I want to write a book on
Unknown (02:27):
God, you're like, it's so big.
Margaret Feinberg (02:29):
And so I'm actually about four and a half
years late turning it in.
Studied, read so much. Andfinally, I was drawn through a
professor in Texas, JackLevison, through his books and
his writing. I just saw theinsight to take a fresh angle
and look at Holy Spirit in theOld Testament is growing up in a
multiplicity of churches. I youknow, an Episcopal Church. It
was the stained glass and theMethodist Church. It was, you
(02:51):
know, God's present with us, andPresbyterian Church. It was
committees. I love youPresbyterians. That was a joke,
you know, but, but, like, I wentto all kinds of different, you
know, in the Southern Baptist weattended, it was God's work, you
know. And so everybody kind ofhad their own look at it. And I
as even as a kid, was like, I,I'm I'm a little confused, and I
don't understand. And and when Iwould ask about Holy Spirit, so
(03:13):
often people would go, well,read Acts two, you know, read
the book of Acts in and I wouldread it, and it's amazing and
it's beautiful, and at the sametime I'm like, my life doesn't
look like that. And I think partof that, and what I discovered
on the several year journey ofjust researching and studying
and pursuing Holy Spirit is thatActs two and Pentecost, it
(03:34):
doesn't make sense apart fromthe Old Testament. As so many
Jesus followers do, they sendpeople to the New Testament and
in Acts two to understand theHoly Spirit. But that's like
showing up on the wedding dateand never even having the
opportunity to like date, get toknow court, understand. And so
without the Old Testament, itdoes seem weird and strange, but
(03:56):
once we start to look the HolySpirit in the Old Testament, we
arrive at Acts two, and we go,of course it would happen this
way.
Joshua Johnson (04:05):
I know a lot of people will say that really,
Holy Spirit wasn't doing much atall in the Old Testament, that
there was just God the Father,he was interacting with people.
And then, you know, Jesus camealong, and then Jesus gave that
gift to the Holy Spirit to us,and he's going to come later. So
(04:26):
let's unpack the Holy Spirit.
The Old Testament. Say HolySpirit has always been around.
It's part of the Trinity, partof the Godhead, from the very
beginning. And so at the verybeginning, even in Genesis, the
creation, where do we see thespirit? Where we see the Holy
Margaret Feinberg (04:41):
Spirit? Yeah, if I can address something
before we jump there, I thinkwhat you're you're getting to in
this main idea is this idea thatthat so many of us, and myself
included, like I miss theprominence of Holy Spirit in the
Old Testament. And part of thatis a matter of the Hebrew
language. And you know, the wordRuach is for the word spirit. It
can be translated breath, it canbe translated air, it can be
(05:03):
translated wind. And sothroughout the Old Testament,
translators had to makedecisions at times which to
translate it as. So if youactually look for the word Ruch
in the Old Testament, you'llfind it over 400 times, almost
500 times, including in theAramaic text and others. But
because of the translation,sometimes I feel like we miss
it, or we miss the opportunityto recognize that the Spirit of
(05:26):
the Living God was present andwas there. And you are right. It
leads us right from the verystart in Genesis. I've got my
old, beat up crackly Bible here,but you know, in the beginning,
God created Barat in Hebrew theheavens and the earth, and the
earth was formless and void. Itwas Tohu, wa vohu. It was that
dark, abysmal deep that wasrepresentative of chaos,
(05:52):
uncertainty and the unknown. Andit says in the Spirit of God,
the Ruch Elohim was hoveringover the surface of the waters
and man so rich, you think HolySpirit could have shown up at
any point. I mean, sure he wouldshow up on the happy, clappy
day. He would show up on themiraculous day, and he the the
(06:13):
curtain of time is pulled back,and Holy Spirit steps on the
center stage amid uncertaintyand chaos and the unknown.
Anybody feeling any of thatright now? And so we are
reminded from the opening, theSpirit of the Living God is
there and present. We know thementions of we in the creation
story of Jesus. And so rightfrom that beginning of Genesis
(06:36):
and creation, we're getting thatTrinitarian, that beautiful
Father Son and Spirit, and thatinsight into how they interact
and are constantly present, andwhile one may take the lead, the
others are always there. Does
Joshua Johnson (06:52):
Holy Spirit show up in times of chaos? Is Holy
Spirit there, particularly inchaotic times, in times where
there is void and darkness, oris this not entirely
representative of a particularthing that Holy Spirit likes to
do and show up in the world? Iwould
Margaret Feinberg (07:13):
probably argue that it is one way. It is
not the whole way, butdefinitely it is a way Holy
Spirit has done it, and I'veseen that, and I've also heard
stories and personal lives. Youknow, we can have all the
academic and the head knowledgeof Holy Spirit, but there are
just things that Holy Spiritshows up. And I'm not sure if
Holy Spirit shows up moretheologically, I don't know. I'd
argue that, because the spiritis everywhere present, we can,
(07:35):
we can go down that way, but,but that there is a, there's a
shift in our posture that Ibelieve makes us more attentive.
So a friend of mine lost herhusband after 42 years, faced
her first Mother's Day alone,and it was brutal, and she's
sitting in the empty houselooking out the window, and she
watches as a white dove comesand lands on her front window
(07:59):
and perches there. She'd been inthis house for 30 years and
never seen a white dove, andthat white dove stayed there all
day. The woman's thinking, Am Ireally think seeing this? So she
calls her neighbor and is like,do you see the white dove too?
And the neighbor's like, yeah,yeah, it's really there. And
that dove stays throughout thenight until the next morning.
(08:21):
And in the midst of the loss andthe grief, she prays, and she
says, Lord Jesus, why? Why wouldyou send a white dove to me on
on my first Mother's Day as awidow? And she sends the Holy
Spirit just speak in her heartthat the Lord was saying, you
know, I have sent my very best,a white dove, Holy Spirit to
(08:42):
remind you that I am always withyou and I will never leave you.
Now, that is an experientialreality. I know that is not in
the biblical text, but I wouldargue that we see it in the
biblical text, in Genesis and sooften even in the dismay, in the
confusion in Acts, one, youknow, the disciples are
gathered. Persecution iserupting, the the Savior has
(09:06):
died and risen, and isconfusing, and they're winning
something. They're not quitesure what it is. And it is
uncertainty, it is chaos, it isthe unknown, and Holy Spirit
shows up. So I think, I thinkthere's a pattern there that we
can lean into Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (09:21):
and I think we could, we could see those
experiences over and over, andwe could look at it through the
biblical text. We could see theHoly Spirit shows up in those
times. I want to step back justa little with people's
expectations of the Holy Spirit,and then to get into what, what
does it actually say? What do wesee in the Old Testament. So
some expectations, if you arecharismatic, that there are lots
(09:46):
of incredibly fantastical giftsof all of these things, of
healing, of, you know, tongues,lots, lots of things that it
feels like the spirit is showingoff. I grew up as. Family of
God. We we see a lot ofcharismatic gifts, right? And
then I went into a Baptistchurch in high school, and they
(10:07):
said, well, the Holy Spiritdoesn't do anything anymore like
so they said they like the HolySpirit will live inside of you
and will give you some guidance.
But we don't see any gifts ofthe Spirit anymore. And so
there's all sorts of confusionaround the Holy Spirit, what the
Holy Spirit is doing and how theHoly Spirit is showing up, as we
see from the beginning in theOld Testament all the way
(10:30):
through, what are some of thecommon themes of what the Holy
Spirit is doing and who the HolySpirit is. So that we can say,
Okay, right now, let's justclear away everything we think
we know Holy Spirit, and thenjust let's look what is the Holy
Spirit doing? Who is the HolySpirit? Oh, I'm so
Margaret Feinberg (10:51):
glad I grabbed my Bible. This is so
fun. I love all this nerdystuff. Okay? I think one that is
often overlooked, but I justthink is the coolest thing ever
is in Exodus 31 verse one, andit says, I'm just going to read
for a minute. Then the Lord saidto Moses, See, I have chosen
Bezalel, son of URI, the son ofher, of the tribe of Judah, and
(11:14):
I have filled him with theSpirit of God. So we have this
charismatic like, you can't getfilled with the Holy Spirit
until I'm like, what about thisguy? Like, like all of our
theology, like all of ourbiblical constructs about Holy
Spirit work really good, as longas you don't read the Bible too
close. Just wanna throw that outthere. Now I'm gonna be fired
from the universe. But cool,cool. But he's filled him with
(11:35):
the Spirit of God, with wisdom,with understanding, with
knowledge, and with all kinds ofskill to make artistic designs.
And of course, there's theskills of gold and silver and
bronze, to cut and set stones,to work and engage in all kinds
of crafts. And it's worthknowing that it doesn't say I am
going to fill Bezalel, or I justfilled Bezalel with the Spirit
(11:58):
of God. Rather, I have filledhim, which implies the Spirit of
the Living God had been workingin Bezalel long before the
command through Moses to buildthe tabernacle had ever come,
which I think suggests, and Iknow it's not in the text, but
that the spirit had beenpresenting him bezel Bezalel,
(12:19):
whose name means in the Shadowof God. And I love God's play on
words with opportunities tolearn and grow and practice and
even make mistakes long beforehe ever made his first creative
work for the tabernacle. And Ithink this teaches us a couple
of things. If you read on thestory and the work of the
Spirit, and then a holy AB comesalongside and their gifts, if
(12:42):
you look in the text, which issuper nerdy out, are actually
different, like, like a holy ABloves bronze as stone and and
and, or Bezalel does, but a holyAB loves the soft more, the
fabrics and the fine arts andhow these work together, and the
Spirit uses those together aswell as giving them the ability
to teach an entire, you know,group of artisans. And so you're
(13:06):
seeing this pouring out of thespirit, the provision of the
Spirit in these incrediblecreative lives. And I think one
of the things that thatchallenges and equips us to do
is that recognizing that just asHoly Spirit, you know, filled
and used them in that what theymade would make a difference,
(13:27):
that Holy Spirit can do the sameto us and with us. There are
times when I sit down to writeand all I can describe is it's
like I feel the Holy hum ofGod's presence. I guess it may
be akin to what the character inERIC Liddell said in the
chariots of fire movie. Youknow, when I when I run, I feel
(13:50):
God's pleasure in my hunch isfor those who are listening, who
are pastors, who are leaders,who are researchers, who work at
nonprofits, who are there aremoments that you're doing that
thing, you are making something,whether it's a blueprint or a
business plan or a sermon, andyou feel that sense of the holy
home of God's presence. Ibelieve that is a recognition we
(14:10):
have. You know, the opportunityto make that Holy Spirit is with
us. He is, he is working throughus, in us, and it is a privilege
and a joy to participate in thatwork. So
Joshua Johnson (14:23):
what does that interplay, then, with us and the
Holy Spirit in the mode ofcreation? What does that look
like? How does it like? How dowe experience that? How do we
know like to get somediscernment through the spirit
of what to do and how to createand and what is us? What is the
spirits, and how does it merge?
Margaret Feinberg (14:44):
Yeah, that's a great question. I definitely
think part of it is a mystery.
Let's just acknowledge that. ButI also think there is this
invitation for all of us to sayin whatever we are making,
whatever that creative orendeavor is, we can change the
posture of our lives by. It bysaying, Holy Spirit, I invite
you into this space is the HolySpirit. People get mad because
(15:04):
you're like, we can't inviteHoly Spirit where Holy Spirit
already is. Okay, littleBrainiac, I understand all the
theological gymnastics there,but the bottom line is, you like
to be invited, and I like to beinvited, even if it even our
family's throwing a party, westill want to be invited, even
if it's right, it just, it'sjust, and so the invitation
isn't denying that he's notalready, it's, it's that sense
(15:26):
of saying I want to be attunedto you. Would you come and do
something in and through thisthat I cannot do on my own?
Would you empower? Would youspark creativity? There's a
wonderful Psalm that that can beused as a prayer that that you
know that God would establishthe work of our hands, in other
words, give it a permanence anda meaning that it would not have
(15:47):
if we simply did it on our own.
And so I think creativity is aninvitation to say, Holy Spirit,
would you, would you? Would youestablish the work of my hands,
are hands together, thatwhatever is created here will
have a lasting meaning beyondanything I could do on my own.
Joshua Johnson (16:08):
Yeah, and I love the that work of the spirits in
Exodus 31 as it fills for thetabernacle to create something
beautiful, they're creatingsomething beautiful for people
in the desert, where they're inthe midst of ugliness and dirt
(16:30):
and difficulty and wandering,and they get beauty. It's pretty
substantial, I think, and prettyamazing that the Holy Spirit
would give us some some beautywhen we desperately need it. And
that was a a gift to us, that weget to see that beauty and
Margaret Feinberg (16:50):
to create that sense of, you know, it's
also, you know, that constantforeshadowing of the forgiveness
of Christ that is to comethrough the atonement. And so it
wasn't just for them, there. Itwas for us now. I mean, it's
just this ongoing again, withthat permanence and that meaning
that it would not have on itsown if we were like, I'm gonna
build a box for God on my own,you know?
Joshua Johnson (17:12):
So we have some creativity. Spirit is there in
the midst of creativity andbeauty and art, do we see in the
Old Testament the spirits doingthings like say, what happens in
Acts when in Macedonia, Paul islike, Hey, I'm gonna go one way,
the Spirit says, No, go thisway. Is the Spirit speaking and
(17:34):
showing up in maybe in dreams,and it's helping to unveil some
discernment for people. Yeah, I
Margaret Feinberg (17:44):
think one of the classic go to examples is
Joseph, you know, and here is aman. And what's fascinating is,
if you actually look at thetext, it never says that God
sent Joseph the dreams. Now it'sclear to most of us who read,
the gift of dreaminterpretation, and probably the
dreams were divine dreams. Theycame from God. They were sourced
by in and of all the people thatyou know, it's Pharaoh who
(18:08):
recognizes, you know, in whom isthe Spirit of God. You know. So,
so we have someone who doesn'tknow God, confessing the reality
of God because of these gifts ofdream interpretation, I think
dreams can get super squirrely.
I think I just, you just gave mea big grin. I love it, and we
all know it. I mean, I've been,I was at a dinner party last
year, a gal came up to me. She'slike, I keep having this dream
(18:31):
that I'm going to meet this guyand he's gonna be amazing, and
we're gonna get together, I'mgonna leave my husband and run
off. And I just know it's God.
And I was like, and I know thatit's not, you know, in so, so a
dream is not i is not a giftedto indulge in self indulgent,
self destructive behavior,clearly. But I think, at least
(18:51):
for for me, and seeing the useof dreams in the life of Joseph
and throughout the book of Acts,there is this invitation to do a
couple things. Number one,physiologically, let's recognize
that dreams are a physiologicalcomponent of God's makeup in our
bodies. In that they clean outtoxins, they help our minds make
sense of order. They they helpmake sense of things that we
(19:13):
just couldn't quite connect inour daylight hours and our
brains. So it's doing a lot ofgood physiologically for us at
the same time. I know I'vedefinitely seen it, my husband's
life, and at times in my ownlife, where there is a dream,
and I'm like, God, is this fromyou? Is this? And I'm not sure,
kind of like Joseph, how itdoesn't ever say that the dream
was from God. Like, I'm not surewe'll ever know with 100%
(19:37):
certainty. But what we can dowith 100% certainty is always
take that dream to God as aprayer prompt. Say, God, I had
this dream. And I don't know ifit's from, you know, crazy
noodles, MSG or strugglings andanxieties in my heart, but, but
I want to bring this dream toyou and say, Hey, what are you
saying here? What? What is this?
And I think when we. Recognizedreams as prayer prompts. It
(20:00):
opens up a whole newconversation with with God, with
Holy Spirit. My husband and Ihave been doing this for for
years. A number of years ago, Iwas really ill. We were living
in Alaska, and we went out tothe Mendenhall Glacier one day,
and it was gorgeous, and I lovedit. I just love the wonder of
creation. Just stirs my heart.
(20:23):
God word. A few nights later,Leif woke up in the middle of
the night, and he grabbed me,and he just looked at me, you're
still here. And I'm like, yeah,yeah, I'm still here. I'm like,
what was that? He said, I hadthe dream that we were walking
out on the Mendenhall Glacierand and it crapped, and you'd
fallen through a hole in theice, and you were out of reach,
and I couldn't rescue you. And Iwas like, Huh, interesting. Few
(20:47):
nights later, he has the samedream again. I'm like, that's
weird. He's really concernedabout the glacier. And then he
had it a third time, and at thatpoint, I remember just praying
and saying, Holy Spirit, Lord,if this from you, or whether or
not it's not that's not the realquestion, what are you trying to
reveal? What would you like tospeak into this? And what life
(21:08):
and I started to discern is inthe extreme sickness that I was
in, I started pulling back fromcommunity, from other people,
really getting isolated, gettingso depressed and dark in the
midst of that season, and I hademotionally fallen through the
ice, and I really needed to beintentional about reaching out
(21:29):
to others, being part ofcommunity, asking for prayer.
And that actually became aturning point in that journey
that got me to emotionalstrength, because of other
people, or were designed foreach other. The physical healing
and that kind of restorationtook much, much longer, but
those dreams alerted us tosomething we couldn't see on our
(21:51):
own, and we have seen God dothat time and time again, and so
maybe this is too weird, buteach morning, Leif and I wake up
and we ask a couple ofquestions. We ask first
question, How did you sleep?
Number two, did you have anydreams? And then if he starts
talking, I pull out a memo, andI thought, just write them down.
Just track them. Just trackthem. A lot of times. They're,
you know, racing through thewoods and, you know, whatever,
(22:14):
just nonsense dreams, but everyso often, and if it happens a
couple times, I'll just use thisas a prayer prompt, Lord, is
there something trying to leadus, guide us in this, or
anxieties and fears of us thatare coming to the surface that
you want to speak into? And attimes that happens, and so in
that context, I feel dreamsbecome less squirrely and weird
and can actually become agrounding prayer prompt in our
(22:38):
lives.
Joshua Johnson (22:40):
You know, I lived in the Middle East, worked
a lot with Arab Muslims, and Ihave a lot of friends now that
have had dreams of Jesus, andJesus says, Come follow me. And
a variation of follow me, andit's always a variation of
follow me. And many Muslims havecome to Christ because of dreams
(23:01):
and visions. And when I havetaught and been in America, and
I talk about dreams and teachabout dreams, and what I have
seen firsthand, and not juststories from others, but seen
firsthand, people said, why Anddoesn't that happen here? Like,
(23:22):
why don't we have dreams? Why?
And I wonder what people I thinkit's because of our
rationalistic, materialisticworldview, where we're not
looking for them, or even Ithink they're happening. I just
don't think that people areaware of them. Why do you think
that there's this big phenomenonof dreams, of Jesus and Jesus
(23:44):
coming to Muslims and dreams?
Yeah, and in the West, dreamsaren't happening as much, or
we're not aware of them.
Margaret Feinberg (23:57):
Yeah, I think dreams are happening. I think we
have these weird leftovertheological lines that we drew
somewhere along the way. And Ican, I could totally break those
down for you, but, but they kindof say like, Well, God can work
on this geographical line, buthe can't do this on this
geographical line. Okay? It'sall his kiddos. It's all his
(24:17):
like, Spirit of the Living Godeverywhere all the time, like
there's no lines. So thosearen't in us. Those aren't in
reality. And so if we thinkdreams are scary or squirrely or
seeing somebody like at thatdinner party I was at, I'm like,
I'm not. I'm so afraid of beingthat person, we do. We draw
lines. And so there may bedreams, and we never bother to
(24:39):
take them as prayer prompts toGod. And so I think part of it
is there God is speaking throughdreams. Secondly, I think that
we always use a Scripture, wealways use wise counsel, we
always use discernment, all ofthose things. We don't make rash
decisions off of a dream. But Ithink, I think there's a lack of
teaching. I think there's,there's a lack of,
unfortunately, in a lot ofplaces, communities where.
(25:00):
People can safely practice andsay, Hey, I had this dream. This
is what I'm sensing. You know,in a biblically based, rich
Christian community, say, Whatdo you think? And have
relationships where that's safeto explore and make mistakes and
grow in that so. So I think theyare happening and and I think if
we as believers, you know, oneof the things I suggest in the
(25:20):
God you need to know book is, iswe just pray. You know Holy
Spirit like speak in the night,hours like you don't you don't
go off the clock when I go tobed. So if you want to work
those other I invite you tospeak. Help me be attentive to
you. So I think some of theshift has to happen in our
hearts and around believers whomake us feel safe and that this
(25:42):
is normal and not weird.
Joshua Johnson (25:44):
Yeah, that's really good, and that's helpful.
So then what does discernmentlook like, and how does Holy
Spirit help us in our our livesand discernment? How do we learn
to listen? Yeah,
Margaret Feinberg (25:55):
God created us. We know this now more than
ever. It was such neurologicaldiversity, right? You know,
neurotypical, not neurotypical,all those different things. And
so would not the God of theuniverse who knew us in the womb
Psalm 139 know how tocommunicate with each of us
individually in ways that wouldpersonally so connect. Would not
the Spirit of the Living Godknow that? And so to think that
(26:18):
there is a cookie cutter onlyone way that the Spirit of God
is going to speak or communicateor connect with us. I think we
got to wipe away that kind ofthinking and recognize that
that, you know, for somebodythey may find that the spirit of
loving God speaks to creation.
You know, those mercies are newevery morning, sunset, sunrises,
the majesty of the ocean, thepower of God, we may find
(26:39):
somebody else. It's much more ofa logical or it's it's dates and
times and a specificity withnumbers, because they are number
oriented. And so I think firstof all, when it comes to
recognizing whether something isfrom Holy Spirit scripture,
first and foremost, does italign with God's word, and does
it align with the character ofGod? It's not you chuck it far
out back. I think. Second is,does it leave me with a sense of
(27:03):
peace? Christ is the Prince ofPeace. The Holy Spirit, you
know, is joy and peace andrighteousness. And so, so that
sense of peace is really clutch,and so for feeling or sensing
something, and it's creatingthis dissonance in us, that's
something to pray about not toact on. Third, does it align
with the wise counsel in mylife? Be in Christian community,
listen to your brothers andsisters who will say hard things
(27:25):
to you in love and help eachother not to go off the tracks.
I think another one is, I thinkprayer is really clutch and just
keeping in and we don't have toact fast most of the time,
especially for anything larger,small things. Go, apologize. Go,
make it right. You go quick.
But, you know, moving to Africa,take your time, kiddos. And I
(27:48):
think that through that, weprovide some guard routes so
people don't fall off and makerapt decisions. But here's the
thing, even when we makemistakes on discerning whether
or not something's from God, Godis big enough to cover, you
know, just as a parent lovinglylooks at their child and is
teaching them to speak and says,Go to the kitchen and get a
spoon, and they come back withnothing, or they come back they
(28:10):
don't even go to the kitchen,you know. But as the child
grows, eventually they do that,and it and Spirit and God are so
compassionate and caring andmerciful, and how much better to
be the kiddo who attempts torespond in obedience than the
one who never does. Or
Joshua Johnson (28:29):
you could be like my seven year old the other
night, who I told him to getsome forks for dinner, and he
brought a bunch of knives, andhe started laughing. He thought
it was funny, so he just wantedto joke around so so I love, I
love that too. It's good to havea sense of humor in the midst of
(28:50):
it. I just want to, I want afork. When you were looking
through the Old Testament andyou were doing a lot of work and
seeing what the Holy Spirit wasdoing. Was there anything that
surprised you that you didn'trecognize before as you were
looking in the Old Testament go,Oh, that was interesting. I
Margaret Feinberg (29:12):
think one for me that really stood out, and
I'm flipping there now, is fromthe book of Daniel. I was
really, you know, nobody like Igrew up hearing all the stories
about Daniel. You know, theywere life lessons, leadership
lessons. Nobody was like, Oh,but wait, let's look at the
Spirit of God in the life ofDaniel. That wasn't, that wasn't
the go to lesson when I wasgrowing up. And yet, here is
(29:34):
this man with his friends. So Iflipped it. I want to find that
passage. Sorry. It's kind oflike the story of Bezalel, that
story of the Spirit doing thework long before the moment
came. I mean, they were chosenthe youth, Daniel, one chapter,
chapter one, verse four, says,Use in whom was no defect were
good looking, showingintelligence in every branch of
wisdom, endowed withunderstanding and discerning
(29:56):
knowledge, who had the abilityfor serving in the king's court?
Spirit. And so here were, herewas a group of guys who, in
essence, the Holy Spirit, and Ibelieve, the Spirit of God, had
already been working in andthrough long before they were
ever arrested and taken in tothis placement in in that
(30:18):
kingdom, we read in verse 20, asfor the matter of wisdom and
understanding about which theking consulted them. He found
them 10 times better than allthe magicians, the conjurers,
who were in all the realm. Andso there is a sense, and there's
a word Jack levison'stranslates, I think it's Katara,
but it's the word that thefullness of this wisdom and this
knowledge and this discernmentwas to the nth later on, we'll
(30:40):
see that same word describingthe fire was turned up to the
INF. Various images come to thenth. But this idea that here are
these, you know, here are thesemen in whom, even Nebuchadnezzar
says on multiple accounts herecognizes as a pagan god who is
a mass murderer, mad personrecognizes the Spirit of God is
(31:04):
in them on multiple occasions,and you start to recognize,
like, how come in these storiesboth kind of of Joseph with
Pharaoh and Daniel withNebuchadnezzar and his friends.
Like, like, these other peopleare recognizing the spirit of
the living God in them. Before Ido we see, because I'm not sure
I'm looking for the rightthings. And so yes, there's a
(31:26):
place for dreams and visions andall of those things, but to also
recognizing that, that giving tothe int of the Spirit in wisdom
and discernment and knowledge,and that is supernatural. And
and, I don't think we alwayscelebrate that or acknowledge
that in the ways that thescripture starts to highlight.
So
Joshua Johnson (31:46):
what do you think that people that are are
with the Spirit, filled withspirit, have Holy Spirit with
them? Why do you think that theycan see things like knowledge,
wisdom, understanding, thatpeople who aren't can't see. I'm
Margaret Feinberg (32:02):
not sure it's that binary. I think in God's
grace, we all get glimpses. ButI think that there are times
that the Spirit opens our eyesin ways that we go, Whoa. This
was what God was up to. I alsodon't understand the i It's a
mystery to me, the way that HolySpirit and and God, they give
gifts, and they are so diverse,and they are so different, and
(32:26):
at times they make no sense. Itell a story in the God you need
to know about my friend, Phil,and he's amazing person, and he
went up to Albany, and one ofhis life goals had been to go to
this particular summit cemeterywhere the several Supreme Court
justices, and I think PresidentChester was buried. And so he
shows up, and in the cemeterythere are there are ambulances,
(32:49):
there are police cruisers, likeracing all over and he's
starting to feel uncomfortable,like Did, did somebody escape
what's going on? And finally, apolice, police cruiser slows
down, and an officer pops outand says, you know, what are you
doing here? And he's like, Ijust came to see the Supreme
Court justices, kind of graveshere. And he's like, Well, we
got a call from a grandmotherthat a young boy got is, is a
(33:13):
tombstone fellow on him, and wecan't, we can't find where they
are. And he said, In my friendPhil said, Would you know the
number, basically, of the whatarea it said, and he gave the
number, and all the policecruisers were headed in one
number. And my friend Phil said,Oh, you're not going to find the
boy that way. You need to godown that road and in that
(33:33):
direction you're going to findthe boy. Now, Phil had never
been to the cemetery before, andsure enough, the officer says,
Okay, we're gonna give it a go.
They go down, they find the boyand and later on, the officer
comes up and says, How did youknow? How do you know this, if
you've never stepped foot inthis cemetery? And he said, 40
years before, when he was anundergraduate, I think it was at
(33:54):
the University of Alabama, hestudied cemeteries, and he found
it fascinating because it was aninsight into cultures and
religions through you can seethrough Dave stones. And so he'd
studied it. He did his one ofhis big thesis on this
particular cemetery, nevervisited his whole life, and
shows up on that particular daywhen it was so needed. And he
(34:17):
had the wisdom to help recognizethe location of the boy. Now, is
that coincidence? Some mayargue, yes, I think there's more
to it than that. I believe thatthe Spirit of the Living God was
working long before that momentfor that day. And I think that
it's like that in so many of ourlives, that you know he had all
(34:40):
that knowledge for all thatyears, for what? And then one
day he catches a glimpse of thisHoly Spirit. Is why you
interested me in this all thoseyears ago. And I think when we
start to talk among a communityof believers, we see that, I bet
you have those stories.
Joshua Johnson (34:54):
Well, I have a whole bunch of stories I can
tell you. They're They'reincredible things, but what.
What I want to know is why somepeople have them and some people
don't. One of the, I mean, oneof the things that I think is
that I think some people payattention and lots of people
don't,
Margaret Feinberg (35:11):
yeah, and I think part of that is they've
never been taught how to payattention. They've never.
They've never, you know, part ofthe reason that, you know, I was
open the possibility of myhusband having repetitive dreams
is because, you know, my mom hadhad dreams growing up, and so
I've been exposed to it. And soI feel like sometimes, in the
silo of Christianity, we go,that's weird. That's strange,
(35:32):
just because we're not taught.
And that's one of the reasons Iwrote, you know, the God you
need to know book and Biblestudy, it is 10 different ways
to pay attention to startchanging the posture of our
life. So we're starting to seeand notice. I shared the story
of the dove showing up on thatwindow sill. And I remember I
shared that at a church service,and a woman came up afterwards
(35:52):
and she said, You mean, you meanthat was the Holy Spirit. And
then she told her own story.
She's like, You mean when my momdied, and my sisters were
together, and we walked outsidethat church, and there were
three butterflies who swarmedaround us as we walked to the
car and then landed on our car.
You think that had to dosomething with God? And I was
like, pretty
Unknown (36:15):
sure the God of Creation picked out the number
three to remind you weren'talone
Margaret Feinberg (36:22):
in it. And she just says, tears, weeping.
Nobody. This is a 67 year oldwoman. No one had told her. Yes,
the Spirit of the Living God isalive and vibrant and engaging
with us. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (36:35):
so good. I want to tell a quick story, and I
want to, I want to think aboutthe corporate and community
aspect of the Holy Spirit,working to bring some knowledge.
So we had a group of of people.
It was a group that we weredoing something for about a year
and working with with Muslimsand others, just to share Jesus
stories and Jesus with them. Wehad a family that befriended
(36:59):
they had a heart for Liberia inWest Africa, and they befriended
a woman who had a grocery store,a Liberian woman, and when we
were meeting that night, a dayor two before her grocery store
burned down to the ground. Andso they brought to our meeting a
whole van load of groceries tobring to this woman, but they
(37:25):
had no idea where she lived, hadthey didn't have a number. They
only knew the grocery store. Andso we came together and we said,
Okay, we're just gonna ask HolySpirit to show us where she
lives. And so we prayed, andthere was about eight of us, and
we all got snippets of it. Onesaid, Go west the setting sun.
(37:47):
Others said something about StJohn. The other had like this
black wrought iron fence andthis apartment building so and
so we just started to drive thatway, and we went, and we passed
something which we thought mighthave been our house, and we
weren't, I wasn't sure I wasdriving, so I went around the
(38:09):
block again, and all of a suddensomebody stopped me, just a
person that never had it, said,What are you doing here? You're
scaring us. You need to leave.
You need to get out of here. AndI was like, so we were we were
afraid, but we kept going, andwe went back to the same place
where we thought it was. Westopped. And as soon as we
(38:31):
stopped, this woman came out ofthe door, and we were able to
give her all these groceries.
She invited us in. And it turnsout there was about 30 Liberians
there in her apartment, and oneof the women that they got to
know when they so, our friends,the family, moved to Liberia and
(38:54):
are still living there today asmissionaries. But one of, one of
the people that they met there,she still had a daughter in
Liberia, and our friends wereable to adopt her and give her a
home in life when they got toLiberia, and it was just, but
the, I think the I mean, Goddoes awesome things, but what I
(39:15):
think is He did it with all ofus. It wasn't just one person
that got something, but he wasworking together to say that you
have to work with each other toactually go to this place, to do
this together. We can't do it onyour own. How does it work?
(39:37):
Yeah, in community. Yeah.
Margaret Feinberg (39:41):
I think I wish I had that blueprint and I
could draw it out in a niceform. Unfortunately, we're
dealing with the wind and blowswherever it wants. But I love
acts. Chapter two, verse one,and when the day of Pentecost
had come, they were all togetherin one place. I think growing up
so often people talked aboutacts. They. Talked about the
miracles and the signs and thewonders and the dreams and the
(40:03):
visions and the, you know, thetongues of fire, all this and
and one of the things that Imissed until I did this deep
study over the last couple ofyears was recognizing that time
and time again throughout thebook of Acts, what you see Holy
Spirit doing is often puttingtwo people in a room who could
not be more different, and yetneed each other. And you know
whether Paul Cornelius,Gentiles, Jews, I mean, just
(40:24):
constantly being draw to to theother, and then having things
unfold in the midst. And I thinkthat we forget that as another
powerful work and aspect of HolySpirit, that he is constantly
fulfilling Jesus Prayer, thatthey would all be one, not just
that we're all one and we lookunified, and yes, it shows the
world of love, but so that wecan bring in the kingdom of God.
(40:47):
I need so and so's visions. Ineed so and so's sensibilities.
I need so and so's wisdom. Ineed so and so. You know, I need
all we all need these from eachother. And I think that is a
powerful message in the worldwe're living that is so divided
over so many things, and yetJesus's cry in the beat of the
(41:09):
spirit is still one, and it isto build bridges, not barriers.
And we discover that, and westart to see the gifts in each
other like it just makes it somuch more fun. It makes it a
lot. Um, I have an E newsletter,and I wrote my, my, lots of
people. And I just said, Hey, Iwant to know, how does the Holy
Spirit like speak to you? Whatdoes it look like? And I had
(41:31):
people, you know, use everythingfrom dreams to visions,
scripture, worship songs,creation. And I had one lady who
wrote it, and she goes, theSpirit gives me directions. And
I was like, can you explain alittle Yeah, you know, I'll be
in a neighborhood and I won'tknow where to go. And I was
asked, Holy Spirit, like, wheredo I go? And I'll just hear very
quickly, and I'll end up in theright place. And at first I was
like, okay, that's weird. Andthen I thought for a second, you
(41:53):
know, I thought, I want her onmy team. I want her on my team.
And if we will stop assigningweird and different, and start
to see and say, Wait a second.
No, no, I want you on my team. Iwant you on my team. We're all
bringing in the kingdomtogether. We need each other. I
think that's just such a betterposture
Joshua Johnson (42:11):
of living. One of the postures some people take
is that the spirit builds me upand I get to be powerful, like I
get to find directions, or I getto do this because, and they
make it about themselves. Whenwe are with Holy Spirit, what
posture should we take, and howshould we be with and what is
(42:32):
it? What is then, the fruit ofthe interaction with the spirit
that doesn't just buildourselves up, but maybe builds
others up? Yeah,
Margaret Feinberg (42:41):
I think one is just, you know, one of the
things I love to ask Holy Spiritis what is on your heart today,
and sometimes it's a person or agroup of people to, you know,
invite a couple people over todinner, to go and reach out to
that person, to go and serve. Ithink Holy Spirit is always
going to be at times. There istimes Holy Spirit builds us up
(43:02):
and ministers to us, but it isan out. It is an other oriented
existence. And sometimes hegives us glimpses. I think there
is that when we gather withother believers. And yes, going
to church is amazing, butgathering believers not just
looking at the back of theirheads, okay, like in this kind
of conversation where you'resharing the richness of Liberia
(43:24):
in the Middle East and Jesus,there's this thing that happens
that it gets me super excited. Ithink it stirs in you too, that
hunger to see, okay, HolySpirit, let's do it. Let's be a
part of it. And so I think themore we talk about Holy Spirit,
and do it in ways that aren'tweird, but are normal and
bibliocentric and Christcentered, like, yes, we start to
(43:45):
get to live out theopportunities of this.
Yesterday, I, you know, I did alittle teaching on Instagram
about Holy Spirit, and then gotdone, put it up, and literally
drove the grocery store. I pullin a parking spot, and there in
front of me is a woman in a carwho's just weeping her eyes out.
And I was like, whoo, HolySpirit. Here we go. And so it's
(44:07):
weird, right? Like, she's like,sobbing over her, her her
steering wheel, and I'm justlike, so I try to, like, tap on
the front of the hood, and Ididn't get I tapped a little
harder and then a little harder.
And finally she looks up and Igo, Can I hug you? And she comes
out, and I just just weeps,starts to explain that just the
you know, two days before herhusband had been picked up,
arrested for something verytiny, and already ice was there
(44:29):
and he was being deported, shejust had held it together
through Easter weekend for herkids to not let them know their
Dad was going to be gone for andso I just said, Hey, can I get
you a Starbucks in the grocerystore? We sat down, we talked,
you know, and then, you know,reached out to my Christian
community and said, Hey, whereare people who can be counselors
(44:52):
in this legal provision? Youknow, do you have Christian
people there? But how can we getthe body to. To surround you,
and it's a we. It's not a me,it's not us. It's just, you
know, some of us, sometimes areones who pull up in front of a
car on a certain day, but it'sall of us coming together to
bring up the kingdom I want tolike that life, that's
Joshua Johnson (45:14):
the life I want to
Unknown (45:16):
live as well live as follows. Are you tired
Margaret Feinberg (45:20):
and bored like for most of us are, at
least for me, I'll say, from myeducation has exceeded my
obedience. I wanna, I wanna obeyto those quick promptings of the
Spirit that say, Go, respond,apologize, give, make it right.
That's where the fruit and thejoy and the righteousness, the
peace and the delight is. Yes,amen.
Joshua Johnson (45:42):
Amen. So if you could say to us people
listening, if there's somethingthat you would want them to know
about Holy Spirit, what wouldwhat do you want them to know
about Holy Spirit? Holy
Margaret Feinberg (45:53):
Spirit in Hebrew, the word is and it could
be translated breath and HolySpirit is closer than your next
breath. Doesn't matter how youfeel. I go to churches all the
time, and the worship leaderstands up and says, Do you feel
the Holy Spirit here? And myanswer is, nope, nope. I don't.
(46:14):
No like I'll just be honest, butI can acknowledge that Holy
Spirit is here. Each and everyone of us can do that, and we're
invited to do that each andevery day. And one just very
practical way, from the gods,you need to know, just to share,
just very practical way tobecome more attentive of this.
And I learned it from my friendDrake, somebody else in the body
(46:34):
of Christ, loving Jesus. And hesaid, one of the things he does
is he keeps a journal, terriblejournal, journal, but, but he
changed the way I journal. Hesaid, Every day I ask Holy
Spirit one question, this one.
And the question may be, who amI? What's my purpose? What are
you calling me to? Who do youwant me to love today? Just one
question. And then I go throughthe day, and I just keep asking
(46:56):
Holy Spirit that question overand over again, attentive
posture changed to how HolySpirit might be answering that
and then that night, or the nextday, I write it down, and the
next day might write the samequestion, or I may write a
different question. But ratherthan heading off in 10,000
different directions, to focuson just one thing and say, Holy
(47:17):
Spirit, would you answer this?
Do you know answer today? I'mgoing to ask you tomorrow and
watch at how the Holy Spiritresponds. Because my hunches, it
won't be anything new. It willbe like rabbit tracks in the
snow. What Holy Spirit has beendoing all along, but suddenly
your awareness of it hasincreased.
Joshua Johnson (47:36):
That's so good.
Another thing is actuallytalking to the Holy Spirit and
not ignoring Holy Spirit.
Because I don't think there's alot of people out there that
never addressed Holy Spirit intheir life. I think would say, I
will pray to God in the name ofJesus, or I will talk to Jesus,
but they just forget about theHoly Spirit. So if you want to
(47:58):
cultivate a life of the Spirit,you should probably interact
with the Spirit, yeah, like,
Margaret Feinberg (48:04):
know, their wife, you know, like, exactly
their family,
Joshua Johnson (48:10):
exactly. That's good. So if you had one hope for
your readers of the god, youneed to know what is the hope
that you have? Yeah, that
Margaret Feinberg (48:19):
they will, you know, again, I think x2 and
under. Understanding of HolySpirit in the New Testament is
so beautiful and so true and yetso incomplete without
understanding this incrediblelove story and this beauty and
this wisdom and this delightthat is through the Old
Testament. So that as they readthis book and they move through
and I center in on a particularmoment in basically every major
(48:40):
turn in Israel's history, thatby the time you get to Acts two,
you will go, of course, it willhappen this way, and then Holy
Spirit won't seem as odd orstrange or weird. You'd be like,
Oh, this is just a very normalpart of following Jesus, and
that's how it should be for allof
Joshua Johnson (49:01):
us, Yes, amen.
Couple quick questions,Margaret, one, if you go back to
your 21 year old self, whatadvice would you give the call
Margaret Feinberg (49:09):
to follow Jesus and be obedient will be
harder than you ever imagined,
Joshua Johnson (49:16):
but it is worth it. Really good. Anything you've
been reading or watching lately,you could recommend, ooh,
Margaret Feinberg (49:21):
that's a great question. What have I been
reading? I've been reading thisbook by my friend Bob Lentz,
hope for life, and just really,really enjoying it. 365
reflections to anchor your soul.
And I've never seen love dripout of somebody quite like it
drips out of Bob lens.
Joshua Johnson (49:43):
That's great, excellent. How can people get
out get the God you need toknow. Where else would you like
to point people to? Is thereanywhere you'd like to point
Margaret Feinberg (49:51):
the God you need to know? You can find it on
Amazon, all of your favoriteonline retailers, as well as the
Bible study, the God you need toknow. Uh, succession streaming
that just takes people throughabout a dozen different
practices to awaken to arelationship with Holy Spirit.
So yeah, enjoy those. I'm onInstagram, Margaret Feinberg,
(50:13):
all those kind of things,Facebook, all the things. But
yeah, enjoy the book. May, Mayyou read it, and may Holy Spirit
just as close as your next.
Joshua Johnson (50:23):
Amen, well.
Margaret, thank you for thisconversation. Thank you for
illuminating the Holy Spirit forus and actually inspiring us to
interact with the spirit andhave good conversations to bring
some wisdom and discernment andsome some healing figure out
dreams and where the Holy Spiritis speaking, that in the midst
of chaos and destruction, thatthe Holy Spirit will be hovering
(50:44):
and be with us, that there'sgoing to be some peace and joy
and righteousness and beautifulthings with the Spirit, that we
could do this in community, thatwe could be with one another in
Christ and so thank you. It wasa fantastic conversation. I
really enjoyed talking to you. Iappreciate you. You.
I want to I want to obey to those quick
(00:02):
promptings of the Spirit thatsay, Go, respond, apologize,
give, make it right. That'swhere the fruit and the joy and
the righteousness, the peace andthe delight is you.
Joshua Johnson (00:20):
Joshua, hello and welcome to the shifting
culture podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, what comes
to mind when you hear HolySpirit? Well, for some of us,
(00:40):
it's confusion or baggage ormaybe just silence. We've either
over sensationalized it or undertaught it. But what if we've
missed the depth and presence ofthe Spirit because we've skipped
the beginning of the story? Inthis conversation, I talked with
Margaret Feinberg aboutrediscovering the Holy Spirit,
not just in Acts two, but fromthe very beginning, hovering
(01:00):
over the chaos in Genesis.
Margaret invites us to see theSpirit not as some vague force
that shows up only in ecstaticmoments, but as a deeply
personal, present, creativeforce that's always been at work
in beauty, in community, indreams and discernment in the
ordinary and the extraordinary.
We talk about how the Spiritempowers us for creativity,
(01:21):
nudges us toward each other andinvites us to live attentive
lives. We tell stories of theSpirit's work across cultures
and in everyday moments. So joinus as we discover that the Holy
Spirit is closer than the air webreathe. Here is my conversation
with Margaret Feinberg.
Margaret, welcome to shiftingculture. Really excited to have
you on thanks for joining me.
(01:44):
What a delight to be with youtoday. I think we're going to
have a great conversation aroundHoly Spirit. I think Holy Spirit
is important, oftenmisunderstood. Why this now? Why
a book on the Holy Spirit? It'sa
Margaret Feinberg (02:00):
great question. I've been writing for
a number of years, and it wasactually agreed to write this
back in 2019 when we all hadgood ideas,
Joshua Johnson (02:10):
yes, and then God said, oh, let's shut it all
down for a bit.
Margaret Feinberg (02:16):
Let's just have a little things go a little
sideways in every direction. Andand so I've really struggled. I
knew I wanted to write a book onHoly Spirit, but it's, it's
like, I want to write a book on
Unknown (02:27):
God, you're like, it's so big.
Margaret Feinberg (02:29):
And so I'm actually about four and a half
years late turning it in.
Studied, read so much. Andfinally, I was drawn through a
professor in Texas, JackLevison, through his books and
his writing. I just saw theinsight to take a fresh angle
and look at Holy Spirit in theOld Testament is growing up in a
multiplicity of churches. I youknow, an Episcopal Church. It
was the stained glass and theMethodist Church. It was, you
(02:51):
know, God's present with us, andPresbyterian Church. It was
committees. I love youPresbyterians. That was a joke,
you know, but, but, like, I wentto all kinds of different, you
know, in the Southern Baptist weattended, it was God's work, you
know. And so everybody kind ofhad their own look at it. And I
as even as a kid, was like, I,I'm I'm a little confused, and I
don't understand. And and when Iwould ask about Holy Spirit, so
(03:13):
often people would go, well,read Acts two, you know, read
the book of Acts in and I wouldread it, and it's amazing and
it's beautiful, and at the sametime I'm like, my life doesn't
look like that. And I think partof that, and what I discovered
on the several year journey ofjust researching and studying
and pursuing Holy Spirit is thatActs two and Pentecost, it
(03:34):
doesn't make sense apart fromthe Old Testament. As so many
Jesus followers do, they sendpeople to the New Testament and
in Acts two to understand theHoly Spirit. But that's like
showing up on the wedding dateand never even having the
opportunity to like date, get toknow court, understand. And so
without the Old Testament, itdoes seem weird and strange, but
(03:56):
once we start to look the HolySpirit in the Old Testament, we
arrive at Acts two, and we go,of course it would happen this
way.
Joshua Johnson (04:05):
I know a lot of people will say that really,
Holy Spirit wasn't doing much atall in the Old Testament, that
there was just God the Father,he was interacting with people.
And then, you know, Jesus camealong, and then Jesus gave that
gift to the Holy Spirit to us,and he's going to come later. So
(04:26):
let's unpack the Holy Spirit.
The Old Testament. Say HolySpirit has always been around.
It's part of the Trinity, partof the Godhead, from the very
beginning. And so at the verybeginning, even in Genesis, the
creation, where do we see thespirit? Where we see the Holy
Margaret Feinberg (04:41):
Spirit? Yeah, if I can address something
before we jump there, I thinkwhat you're you're getting to in
this main idea is this idea thatthat so many of us, and myself
included, like I miss theprominence of Holy Spirit in the
Old Testament. And part of thatis a matter of the Hebrew
language. And you know, the wordRuach is for the word spirit. It
can be translated breath, it canbe translated air, it can be
(05:03):
translated wind. And sothroughout the Old Testament,
translators had to makedecisions at times which to
translate it as. So if youactually look for the word Ruch
in the Old Testament, you'llfind it over 400 times, almost
500 times, including in theAramaic text and others. But
because of the translation,sometimes I feel like we miss
it, or we miss the opportunityto recognize that the Spirit of
(05:26):
the Living God was present andwas there. And you are right. It
leads us right from the verystart in Genesis. I've got my
old, beat up crackly Bible here,but you know, in the beginning,
God created Barat in Hebrew theheavens and the earth, and the
earth was formless and void. Itwas Tohu, wa vohu. It was that
dark, abysmal deep that wasrepresentative of chaos,
(05:52):
uncertainty and the unknown. Andit says in the Spirit of God,
the Ruch Elohim was hoveringover the surface of the waters
and man so rich, you think HolySpirit could have shown up at
any point. I mean, sure he wouldshow up on the happy, clappy
day. He would show up on themiraculous day, and he the the
(06:13):
curtain of time is pulled back,and Holy Spirit steps on the
center stage amid uncertaintyand chaos and the unknown.
Anybody feeling any of thatright now? And so we are
reminded from the opening, theSpirit of the Living God is
there and present. We know thementions of we in the creation
story of Jesus. And so rightfrom that beginning of Genesis
(06:36):
and creation, we're getting thatTrinitarian, that beautiful
Father Son and Spirit, and thatinsight into how they interact
and are constantly present, andwhile one may take the lead, the
others are always there. Does
Joshua Johnson (06:52):
Holy Spirit show up in times of chaos? Is Holy
Spirit there, particularly inchaotic times, in times where
there is void and darkness, oris this not entirely
representative of a particularthing that Holy Spirit likes to
do and show up in the world? Iwould
Margaret Feinberg (07:13):
probably argue that it is one way. It is
not the whole way, butdefinitely it is a way Holy
Spirit has done it, and I'veseen that, and I've also heard
stories and personal lives. Youknow, we can have all the
academic and the head knowledgeof Holy Spirit, but there are
just things that Holy Spiritshows up. And I'm not sure if
Holy Spirit shows up moretheologically, I don't know. I'd
argue that, because the spiritis everywhere present, we can,
(07:35):
we can go down that way, but,but that there is a, there's a
shift in our posture that Ibelieve makes us more attentive.
So a friend of mine lost herhusband after 42 years, faced
her first Mother's Day alone,and it was brutal, and she's
sitting in the empty houselooking out the window, and she
watches as a white dove comesand lands on her front window
(07:59):
and perches there. She'd been inthis house for 30 years and
never seen a white dove, andthat white dove stayed there all
day. The woman's thinking, Am Ireally think seeing this? So she
calls her neighbor and is like,do you see the white dove too?
And the neighbor's like, yeah,yeah, it's really there. And
that dove stays throughout thenight until the next morning.
(08:21):
And in the midst of the loss andthe grief, she prays, and she
says, Lord Jesus, why? Why wouldyou send a white dove to me on
on my first Mother's Day as awidow? And she sends the Holy
Spirit just speak in her heartthat the Lord was saying, you
know, I have sent my very best,a white dove, Holy Spirit to
(08:42):
remind you that I am always withyou and I will never leave you.
Now, that is an experientialreality. I know that is not in
the biblical text, but I wouldargue that we see it in the
biblical text, in Genesis and sooften even in the dismay, in the
confusion in Acts, one, youknow, the disciples are
gathered. Persecution iserupting, the the Savior has
(09:06):
died and risen, and isconfusing, and they're winning
something. They're not quitesure what it is. And it is
uncertainty, it is chaos, it isthe unknown, and Holy Spirit
shows up. So I think, I thinkthere's a pattern there that we
can lean into Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (09:21):
and I think we could, we could see those
experiences over and over, andwe could look at it through the
biblical text. We could see theHoly Spirit shows up in those
times. I want to step back justa little with people's
expectations of the Holy Spirit,and then to get into what, what
does it actually say? What do wesee in the Old Testament. So
some expectations, if you arecharismatic, that there are lots
(09:46):
of incredibly fantastical giftsof all of these things, of
healing, of, you know, tongues,lots, lots of things that it
feels like the spirit is showingoff. I grew up as. Family of
God. We we see a lot ofcharismatic gifts, right? And
then I went into a Baptistchurch in high school, and they
(10:07):
said, well, the Holy Spiritdoesn't do anything anymore like
so they said they like the HolySpirit will live inside of you
and will give you some guidance.
But we don't see any gifts ofthe Spirit anymore. And so
there's all sorts of confusionaround the Holy Spirit, what the
Holy Spirit is doing and how theHoly Spirit is showing up, as we
see from the beginning in theOld Testament all the way
(10:30):
through, what are some of thecommon themes of what the Holy
Spirit is doing and who the HolySpirit is. So that we can say,
Okay, right now, let's justclear away everything we think
we know Holy Spirit, and thenjust let's look what is the Holy
Spirit doing? Who is the HolySpirit? Oh, I'm so
Margaret Feinberg (10:51):
glad I grabbed my Bible. This is so
fun. I love all this nerdystuff. Okay? I think one that is
often overlooked, but I justthink is the coolest thing ever
is in Exodus 31 verse one, andit says, I'm just going to read
for a minute. Then the Lord saidto Moses, See, I have chosen
Bezalel, son of URI, the son ofher, of the tribe of Judah, and
(11:14):
I have filled him with theSpirit of God. So we have this
charismatic like, you can't getfilled with the Holy Spirit
until I'm like, what about thisguy? Like, like all of our
theology, like all of ourbiblical constructs about Holy
Spirit work really good, as longas you don't read the Bible too
close. Just wanna throw that outthere. Now I'm gonna be fired
from the universe. But cool,cool. But he's filled him with
(11:35):
the Spirit of God, with wisdom,with understanding, with
knowledge, and with all kinds ofskill to make artistic designs.
And of course, there's theskills of gold and silver and
bronze, to cut and set stones,to work and engage in all kinds
of crafts. And it's worthknowing that it doesn't say I am
going to fill Bezalel, or I justfilled Bezalel with the Spirit
(11:58):
of God. Rather, I have filledhim, which implies the Spirit of
the Living God had been workingin Bezalel long before the
command through Moses to buildthe tabernacle had ever come,
which I think suggests, and Iknow it's not in the text, but
that the spirit had beenpresenting him bezel Bezalel,
(12:19):
whose name means in the Shadowof God. And I love God's play on
words with opportunities tolearn and grow and practice and
even make mistakes long beforehe ever made his first creative
work for the tabernacle. And Ithink this teaches us a couple
of things. If you read on thestory and the work of the
Spirit, and then a holy AB comesalongside and their gifts, if
(12:42):
you look in the text, which issuper nerdy out, are actually
different, like, like a holy ABloves bronze as stone and and
and, or Bezalel does, but a holyAB loves the soft more, the
fabrics and the fine arts andhow these work together, and the
Spirit uses those together aswell as giving them the ability
to teach an entire, you know,group of artisans. And so you're
(13:06):
seeing this pouring out of thespirit, the provision of the
Spirit in these incrediblecreative lives. And I think one
of the things that thatchallenges and equips us to do
is that recognizing that just asHoly Spirit, you know, filled
and used them in that what theymade would make a difference,
(13:27):
that Holy Spirit can do the sameto us and with us. There are
times when I sit down to writeand all I can describe is it's
like I feel the Holy hum ofGod's presence. I guess it may
be akin to what the character inERIC Liddell said in the
chariots of fire movie. Youknow, when I when I run, I feel
(13:50):
God's pleasure in my hunch isfor those who are listening, who
are pastors, who are leaders,who are researchers, who work at
nonprofits, who are there aremoments that you're doing that
thing, you are making something,whether it's a blueprint or a
business plan or a sermon, andyou feel that sense of the holy
home of God's presence. Ibelieve that is a recognition we
(14:10):
have. You know, the opportunityto make that Holy Spirit is with
us. He is, he is working throughus, in us, and it is a privilege
and a joy to participate in thatwork. So
Joshua Johnson (14:23):
what does that interplay, then, with us and the
Holy Spirit in the mode ofcreation? What does that look
like? How does it like? How dowe experience that? How do we
know like to get somediscernment through the spirit
of what to do and how to createand and what is us? What is the
spirits, and how does it merge?
Margaret Feinberg (14:44):
Yeah, that's a great question. I definitely
think part of it is a mystery.
Let's just acknowledge that. ButI also think there is this
invitation for all of us to sayin whatever we are making,
whatever that creative orendeavor is, we can change the
posture of our lives by. It bysaying, Holy Spirit, I invite
you into this space is the HolySpirit. People get mad because
(15:04):
you're like, we can't inviteHoly Spirit where Holy Spirit
already is. Okay, littleBrainiac, I understand all the
theological gymnastics there,but the bottom line is, you like
to be invited, and I like to beinvited, even if it even our
family's throwing a party, westill want to be invited, even
if it's right, it just, it'sjust, and so the invitation
isn't denying that he's notalready, it's, it's that sense
(15:26):
of saying I want to be attunedto you. Would you come and do
something in and through thisthat I cannot do on my own?
Would you empower? Would youspark creativity? There's a
wonderful Psalm that that can beused as a prayer that that you
know that God would establishthe work of our hands, in other
words, give it a permanence anda meaning that it would not have
(15:47):
if we simply did it on our own.
And so I think creativity is aninvitation to say, Holy Spirit,
would you, would you? Would youestablish the work of my hands,
are hands together, thatwhatever is created here will
have a lasting meaning beyondanything I could do on my own.
Joshua Johnson (16:08):
Yeah, and I love the that work of the spirits in
Exodus 31 as it fills for thetabernacle to create something
beautiful, they're creatingsomething beautiful for people
in the desert, where they're inthe midst of ugliness and dirt
(16:30):
and difficulty and wandering,and they get beauty. It's pretty
substantial, I think, and prettyamazing that the Holy Spirit
would give us some some beautywhen we desperately need it. And
that was a a gift to us, that weget to see that beauty and
Margaret Feinberg (16:50):
to create that sense of, you know, it's
also, you know, that constantforeshadowing of the forgiveness
of Christ that is to comethrough the atonement. And so it
wasn't just for them, there. Itwas for us now. I mean, it's
just this ongoing again, withthat permanence and that meaning
that it would not have on itsown if we were like, I'm gonna
build a box for God on my own,you know?
Joshua Johnson (17:12):
So we have some creativity. Spirit is there in
the midst of creativity andbeauty and art, do we see in the
Old Testament the spirits doingthings like say, what happens in
Acts when in Macedonia, Paul islike, Hey, I'm gonna go one way,
the Spirit says, No, go thisway. Is the Spirit speaking and
(17:34):
showing up in maybe in dreams,and it's helping to unveil some
discernment for people. Yeah, I
Margaret Feinberg (17:44):
think one of the classic go to examples is
Joseph, you know, and here is aman. And what's fascinating is,
if you actually look at thetext, it never says that God
sent Joseph the dreams. Now it'sclear to most of us who read,
the gift of dreaminterpretation, and probably the
dreams were divine dreams. Theycame from God. They were sourced
by in and of all the people thatyou know, it's Pharaoh who
(18:08):
recognizes, you know, in whom isthe Spirit of God. You know. So,
so we have someone who doesn'tknow God, confessing the reality
of God because of these gifts ofdream interpretation, I think
dreams can get super squirrely.
I think I just, you just gave mea big grin. I love it, and we
all know it. I mean, I've been,I was at a dinner party last
year, a gal came up to me. She'slike, I keep having this dream
(18:31):
that I'm going to meet this guyand he's gonna be amazing, and
we're gonna get together, I'mgonna leave my husband and run
off. And I just know it's God.
And I was like, and I know thatit's not, you know, in so, so a
dream is not i is not a giftedto indulge in self indulgent,
self destructive behavior,clearly. But I think, at least
(18:51):
for for me, and seeing the useof dreams in the life of Joseph
and throughout the book of Acts,there is this invitation to do a
couple things. Number one,physiologically, let's recognize
that dreams are a physiologicalcomponent of God's makeup in our
bodies. In that they clean outtoxins, they help our minds make
sense of order. They they helpmake sense of things that we
(19:13):
just couldn't quite connect inour daylight hours and our
brains. So it's doing a lot ofgood physiologically for us at
the same time. I know I'vedefinitely seen it, my husband's
life, and at times in my ownlife, where there is a dream,
and I'm like, God, is this fromyou? Is this? And I'm not sure,
kind of like Joseph, how itdoesn't ever say that the dream
was from God. Like, I'm not surewe'll ever know with 100%
(19:37):
certainty. But what we can dowith 100% certainty is always
take that dream to God as aprayer prompt. Say, God, I had
this dream. And I don't know ifit's from, you know, crazy
noodles, MSG or strugglings andanxieties in my heart, but, but
I want to bring this dream toyou and say, Hey, what are you
saying here? What? What is this?
And I think when we. Recognizedreams as prayer prompts. It
(20:00):
opens up a whole newconversation with with God, with
Holy Spirit. My husband and Ihave been doing this for for
years. A number of years ago, Iwas really ill. We were living
in Alaska, and we went out tothe Mendenhall Glacier one day,
and it was gorgeous, and I lovedit. I just love the wonder of
creation. Just stirs my heart.
(20:23):
God word. A few nights later,Leif woke up in the middle of
the night, and he grabbed me,and he just looked at me, you're
still here. And I'm like, yeah,yeah, I'm still here. I'm like,
what was that? He said, I hadthe dream that we were walking
out on the Mendenhall Glacierand and it crapped, and you'd
fallen through a hole in theice, and you were out of reach,
and I couldn't rescue you. And Iwas like, Huh, interesting. Few
(20:47):
nights later, he has the samedream again. I'm like, that's
weird. He's really concernedabout the glacier. And then he
had it a third time, and at thatpoint, I remember just praying
and saying, Holy Spirit, Lord,if this from you, or whether or
not it's not that's not the realquestion, what are you trying to
reveal? What would you like tospeak into this? And what life
(21:08):
and I started to discern is inthe extreme sickness that I was
in, I started pulling back fromcommunity, from other people,
really getting isolated, gettingso depressed and dark in the
midst of that season, and I hademotionally fallen through the
ice, and I really needed to beintentional about reaching out
(21:29):
to others, being part ofcommunity, asking for prayer.
And that actually became aturning point in that journey
that got me to emotionalstrength, because of other
people, or were designed foreach other. The physical healing
and that kind of restorationtook much, much longer, but
those dreams alerted us tosomething we couldn't see on our
(21:51):
own, and we have seen God dothat time and time again, and so
maybe this is too weird, buteach morning, Leif and I wake up
and we ask a couple ofquestions. We ask first
question, How did you sleep?
Number two, did you have anydreams? And then if he starts
talking, I pull out a memo, andI thought, just write them down.
Just track them. Just trackthem. A lot of times. They're,
you know, racing through thewoods and, you know, whatever,
(22:14):
just nonsense dreams, but everyso often, and if it happens a
couple times, I'll just use thisas a prayer prompt, Lord, is
there something trying to leadus, guide us in this, or
anxieties and fears of us thatare coming to the surface that
you want to speak into? And attimes that happens, and so in
that context, I feel dreamsbecome less squirrely and weird
and can actually become agrounding prayer prompt in our
(22:38):
lives.
Joshua Johnson (22:40):
You know, I lived in the Middle East, worked
a lot with Arab Muslims, and Ihave a lot of friends now that
have had dreams of Jesus, andJesus says, Come follow me. And
a variation of follow me, andit's always a variation of
follow me. And many Muslims havecome to Christ because of dreams
(23:01):
and visions. And when I havetaught and been in America, and
I talk about dreams and teachabout dreams, and what I have
seen firsthand, and not juststories from others, but seen
firsthand, people said, why Anddoesn't that happen here? Like,
(23:22):
why don't we have dreams? Why?
And I wonder what people I thinkit's because of our
rationalistic, materialisticworldview, where we're not
looking for them, or even Ithink they're happening. I just
don't think that people areaware of them. Why do you think
that there's this big phenomenonof dreams, of Jesus and Jesus
(23:44):
coming to Muslims and dreams?
Yeah, and in the West, dreamsaren't happening as much, or
we're not aware of them.
Margaret Feinberg (23:57):
Yeah, I think dreams are happening. I think we
have these weird leftovertheological lines that we drew
somewhere along the way. And Ican, I could totally break those
down for you, but, but they kindof say like, Well, God can work
on this geographical line, buthe can't do this on this
geographical line. Okay? It'sall his kiddos. It's all his
(24:17):
like, Spirit of the Living Godeverywhere all the time, like
there's no lines. So thosearen't in us. Those aren't in
reality. And so if we thinkdreams are scary or squirrely or
seeing somebody like at thatdinner party I was at, I'm like,
I'm not. I'm so afraid of beingthat person, we do. We draw
lines. And so there may bedreams, and we never bother to
(24:39):
take them as prayer prompts toGod. And so I think part of it
is there God is speaking throughdreams. Secondly, I think that
we always use a Scripture, wealways use wise counsel, we
always use discernment, all ofthose things. We don't make rash
decisions off of a dream. But Ithink, I think there's a lack of
teaching. I think there's,there's a lack of,
unfortunately, in a lot ofplaces, communities where.
(25:00):
People can safely practice andsay, Hey, I had this dream. This
is what I'm sensing. You know,in a biblically based, rich
Christian community, say, Whatdo you think? And have
relationships where that's safeto explore and make mistakes and
grow in that so. So I think theyare happening and and I think if
we as believers, you know, oneof the things I suggest in the
(25:20):
God you need to know book is, iswe just pray. You know Holy
Spirit like speak in the night,hours like you don't you don't
go off the clock when I go tobed. So if you want to work
those other I invite you tospeak. Help me be attentive to
you. So I think some of theshift has to happen in our
hearts and around believers whomake us feel safe and that this
(25:42):
is normal and not weird.
Joshua Johnson (25:44):
Yeah, that's really good, and that's helpful.
So then what does discernmentlook like, and how does Holy
Spirit help us in our our livesand discernment? How do we learn
to listen? Yeah,
Margaret Feinberg (25:55):
God created us. We know this now more than
ever. It was such neurologicaldiversity, right? You know,
neurotypical, not neurotypical,all those different things. And
so would not the God of theuniverse who knew us in the womb
Psalm 139 know how tocommunicate with each of us
individually in ways that wouldpersonally so connect. Would not
the Spirit of the Living Godknow that? And so to think that
(26:18):
there is a cookie cutter onlyone way that the Spirit of God
is going to speak or communicateor connect with us. I think we
got to wipe away that kind ofthinking and recognize that
that, you know, for somebodythey may find that the spirit of
loving God speaks to creation.
You know, those mercies are newevery morning, sunset, sunrises,
the majesty of the ocean, thepower of God, we may find
(26:39):
somebody else. It's much more ofa logical or it's it's dates and
times and a specificity withnumbers, because they are number
oriented. And so I think firstof all, when it comes to
recognizing whether something isfrom Holy Spirit scripture,
first and foremost, does italign with God's word, and does
it align with the character ofGod? It's not you chuck it far
out back. I think. Second is,does it leave me with a sense of
(27:03):
peace? Christ is the Prince ofPeace. The Holy Spirit, you
know, is joy and peace andrighteousness. And so, so that
sense of peace is really clutch,and so for feeling or sensing
something, and it's creatingthis dissonance in us, that's
something to pray about not toact on. Third, does it align
with the wise counsel in mylife? Be in Christian community,
listen to your brothers andsisters who will say hard things
(27:25):
to you in love and help eachother not to go off the tracks.
I think another one is, I thinkprayer is really clutch and just
keeping in and we don't have toact fast most of the time,
especially for anything larger,small things. Go, apologize. Go,
make it right. You go quick.
But, you know, moving to Africa,take your time, kiddos. And I
(27:48):
think that through that, weprovide some guard routes so
people don't fall off and makerapt decisions. But here's the
thing, even when we makemistakes on discerning whether
or not something's from God, Godis big enough to cover, you
know, just as a parent lovinglylooks at their child and is
teaching them to speak and says,Go to the kitchen and get a
spoon, and they come back withnothing, or they come back they
(28:10):
don't even go to the kitchen,you know. But as the child
grows, eventually they do that,and it and Spirit and God are so
compassionate and caring andmerciful, and how much better to
be the kiddo who attempts torespond in obedience than the
one who never does. Or
Joshua Johnson (28:29):
you could be like my seven year old the other
night, who I told him to getsome forks for dinner, and he
brought a bunch of knives, andhe started laughing. He thought
it was funny, so he just wantedto joke around so so I love, I
love that too. It's good to havea sense of humor in the midst of
(28:50):
it. I just want to, I want afork. When you were looking
through the Old Testament andyou were doing a lot of work and
seeing what the Holy Spirit wasdoing. Was there anything that
surprised you that you didn'trecognize before as you were
looking in the Old Testament go,Oh, that was interesting. I
Margaret Feinberg (29:12):
think one for me that really stood out, and
I'm flipping there now, is fromthe book of Daniel. I was
really, you know, nobody like Igrew up hearing all the stories
about Daniel. You know, theywere life lessons, leadership
lessons. Nobody was like, Oh,but wait, let's look at the
Spirit of God in the life ofDaniel. That wasn't, that wasn't
the go to lesson when I wasgrowing up. And yet, here is
(29:34):
this man with his friends. So Iflipped it. I want to find that
passage. Sorry. It's kind oflike the story of Bezalel, that
story of the Spirit doing thework long before the moment
came. I mean, they were chosenthe youth, Daniel, one chapter,
chapter one, verse four, says,Use in whom was no defect were
good looking, showingintelligence in every branch of
wisdom, endowed withunderstanding and discerning
(29:56):
knowledge, who had the abilityfor serving in the king's court?
Spirit. And so here were, herewas a group of guys who, in
essence, the Holy Spirit, and Ibelieve, the Spirit of God, had
already been working in andthrough long before they were
ever arrested and taken in tothis placement in in that
(30:18):
kingdom, we read in verse 20, asfor the matter of wisdom and
understanding about which theking consulted them. He found
them 10 times better than allthe magicians, the conjurers,
who were in all the realm. Andso there is a sense, and there's
a word Jack levison'stranslates, I think it's Katara,
but it's the word that thefullness of this wisdom and this
knowledge and this discernmentwas to the nth later on, we'll
(30:40):
see that same word describingthe fire was turned up to the
INF. Various images come to thenth. But this idea that here are
these, you know, here are thesemen in whom, even Nebuchadnezzar
says on multiple accounts herecognizes as a pagan god who is
a mass murderer, mad personrecognizes the Spirit of God is
(31:04):
in them on multiple occasions,and you start to recognize,
like, how come in these storiesboth kind of of Joseph with
Pharaoh and Daniel withNebuchadnezzar and his friends.
Like, like, these other peopleare recognizing the spirit of
the living God in them. Before Ido we see, because I'm not sure
I'm looking for the rightthings. And so yes, there's a
(31:26):
place for dreams and visions andall of those things, but to also
recognizing that, that giving tothe int of the Spirit in wisdom
and discernment and knowledge,and that is supernatural. And
and, I don't think we alwayscelebrate that or acknowledge
that in the ways that thescripture starts to highlight.
So
Joshua Johnson (31:46):
what do you think that people that are are
with the Spirit, filled withspirit, have Holy Spirit with
them? Why do you think that theycan see things like knowledge,
wisdom, understanding, thatpeople who aren't can't see. I'm
Margaret Feinberg (32:02):
not sure it's that binary. I think in God's
grace, we all get glimpses. ButI think that there are times
that the Spirit opens our eyesin ways that we go, Whoa. This
was what God was up to. I alsodon't understand the i It's a
mystery to me, the way that HolySpirit and and God, they give
gifts, and they are so diverse,and they are so different, and
(32:26):
at times they make no sense. Itell a story in the God you need
to know about my friend, Phil,and he's amazing person, and he
went up to Albany, and one ofhis life goals had been to go to
this particular summit cemeterywhere the several Supreme Court
justices, and I think PresidentChester was buried. And so he
shows up, and in the cemeterythere are there are ambulances,
(32:49):
there are police cruisers, likeracing all over and he's
starting to feel uncomfortable,like Did, did somebody escape
what's going on? And finally, apolice, police cruiser slows
down, and an officer pops outand says, you know, what are you
doing here? And he's like, Ijust came to see the Supreme
Court justices, kind of graveshere. And he's like, Well, we
got a call from a grandmotherthat a young boy got is, is a
(33:13):
tombstone fellow on him, and wecan't, we can't find where they
are. And he said, In my friendPhil said, Would you know the
number, basically, of the whatarea it said, and he gave the
number, and all the policecruisers were headed in one
number. And my friend Phil said,Oh, you're not going to find the
boy that way. You need to godown that road and in that
(33:33):
direction you're going to findthe boy. Now, Phil had never
been to the cemetery before, andsure enough, the officer says,
Okay, we're gonna give it a go.
They go down, they find the boyand and later on, the officer
comes up and says, How did youknow? How do you know this, if
you've never stepped foot inthis cemetery? And he said, 40
years before, when he was anundergraduate, I think it was at
(33:54):
the University of Alabama, hestudied cemeteries, and he found
it fascinating because it was aninsight into cultures and
religions through you can seethrough Dave stones. And so he'd
studied it. He did his one ofhis big thesis on this
particular cemetery, nevervisited his whole life, and
shows up on that particular daywhen it was so needed. And he
(34:17):
had the wisdom to help recognizethe location of the boy. Now, is
that coincidence? Some mayargue, yes, I think there's more
to it than that. I believe thatthe Spirit of the Living God was
working long before that momentfor that day. And I think that
it's like that in so many of ourlives, that you know he had all
(34:40):
that knowledge for all thatyears, for what? And then one
day he catches a glimpse of thisHoly Spirit. Is why you
interested me in this all thoseyears ago. And I think when we
start to talk among a communityof believers, we see that, I bet
you have those stories.
Joshua Johnson (34:54):
Well, I have a whole bunch of stories I can
tell you. They're They'reincredible things, but what.
What I want to know is why somepeople have them and some people
don't. One of the, I mean, oneof the things that I think is
that I think some people payattention and lots of people
don't,
Margaret Feinberg (35:11):
yeah, and I think part of that is they've
never been taught how to payattention. They've never.
They've never, you know, part ofthe reason that, you know, I was
open the possibility of myhusband having repetitive dreams
is because, you know, my mom hadhad dreams growing up, and so
I've been exposed to it. And soI feel like sometimes, in the
silo of Christianity, we go,that's weird. That's strange,
(35:32):
just because we're not taught.
And that's one of the reasons Iwrote, you know, the God you
need to know book and Biblestudy, it is 10 different ways
to pay attention to startchanging the posture of our
life. So we're starting to seeand notice. I shared the story
of the dove showing up on thatwindow sill. And I remember I
shared that at a church service,and a woman came up afterwards
(35:52):
and she said, You mean, you meanthat was the Holy Spirit. And
then she told her own story.
She's like, You mean when my momdied, and my sisters were
together, and we walked outsidethat church, and there were
three butterflies who swarmedaround us as we walked to the
car and then landed on our car.
You think that had to dosomething with God? And I was
like, pretty
Unknown (36:15):
sure the God of Creation picked out the number
three to remind you weren'talone
Margaret Feinberg (36:22):
in it. And she just says, tears, weeping.
Nobody. This is a 67 year oldwoman. No one had told her. Yes,
the Spirit of the Living God isalive and vibrant and engaging
with us. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (36:35):
so good. I want to tell a quick story, and I
want to, I want to think aboutthe corporate and community
aspect of the Holy Spirit,working to bring some knowledge.
So we had a group of of people.
It was a group that we weredoing something for about a year
and working with with Muslimsand others, just to share Jesus
stories and Jesus with them. Wehad a family that befriended
(36:59):
they had a heart for Liberia inWest Africa, and they befriended
a woman who had a grocery store,a Liberian woman, and when we
were meeting that night, a dayor two before her grocery store
burned down to the ground. Andso they brought to our meeting a
whole van load of groceries tobring to this woman, but they
(37:25):
had no idea where she lived, hadthey didn't have a number. They
only knew the grocery store. Andso we came together and we said,
Okay, we're just gonna ask HolySpirit to show us where she
lives. And so we prayed, andthere was about eight of us, and
we all got snippets of it. Onesaid, Go west the setting sun.
(37:47):
Others said something about StJohn. The other had like this
black wrought iron fence andthis apartment building so and
so we just started to drive thatway, and we went, and we passed
something which we thought mighthave been our house, and we
weren't, I wasn't sure I wasdriving, so I went around the
(38:09):
block again, and all of a suddensomebody stopped me, just a
person that never had it, said,What are you doing here? You're
scaring us. You need to leave.
You need to get out of here. AndI was like, so we were we were
afraid, but we kept going, andwe went back to the same place
where we thought it was. Westopped. And as soon as we
(38:31):
stopped, this woman came out ofthe door, and we were able to
give her all these groceries.
She invited us in. And it turnsout there was about 30 Liberians
there in her apartment, and oneof the women that they got to
know when they so, our friends,the family, moved to Liberia and
(38:54):
are still living there today asmissionaries. But one of, one of
the people that they met there,she still had a daughter in
Liberia, and our friends wereable to adopt her and give her a
home in life when they got toLiberia, and it was just, but
the, I think the I mean, Goddoes awesome things, but what I
(39:15):
think is He did it with all ofus. It wasn't just one person
that got something, but he wasworking together to say that you
have to work with each other toactually go to this place, to do
this together. We can't do it onyour own. How does it work?
(39:37):
Yeah, in community. Yeah.
Margaret Feinberg (39:41):
I think I wish I had that blueprint and I
could draw it out in a niceform. Unfortunately, we're
dealing with the wind and blowswherever it wants. But I love
acts. Chapter two, verse one,and when the day of Pentecost
had come, they were all togetherin one place. I think growing up
so often people talked aboutacts. They. Talked about the
miracles and the signs and thewonders and the dreams and the
(40:03):
visions and the, you know, thetongues of fire, all this and
and one of the things that Imissed until I did this deep
study over the last couple ofyears was recognizing that time
and time again throughout thebook of Acts, what you see Holy
Spirit doing is often puttingtwo people in a room who could
not be more different, and yetneed each other. And you know
whether Paul Cornelius,Gentiles, Jews, I mean, just
(40:24):
constantly being draw to to theother, and then having things
unfold in the midst. And I thinkthat we forget that as another
powerful work and aspect of HolySpirit, that he is constantly
fulfilling Jesus Prayer, thatthey would all be one, not just
that we're all one and we lookunified, and yes, it shows the
world of love, but so that wecan bring in the kingdom of God.
(40:47):
I need so and so's visions. Ineed so and so's sensibilities.
I need so and so's wisdom. Ineed so and so. You know, I need
all we all need these from eachother. And I think that is a
powerful message in the worldwe're living that is so divided
over so many things, and yetJesus's cry in the beat of the
(41:09):
spirit is still one, and it isto build bridges, not barriers.
And we discover that, and westart to see the gifts in each
other like it just makes it somuch more fun. It makes it a
lot. Um, I have an E newsletter,and I wrote my, my, lots of
people. And I just said, Hey, Iwant to know, how does the Holy
Spirit like speak to you? Whatdoes it look like? And I had
(41:31):
people, you know, use everythingfrom dreams to visions,
scripture, worship songs,creation. And I had one lady who
wrote it, and she goes, theSpirit gives me directions. And
I was like, can you explain alittle Yeah, you know, I'll be
in a neighborhood and I won'tknow where to go. And I was
asked, Holy Spirit, like, wheredo I go? And I'll just hear very
quickly, and I'll end up in theright place. And at first I was
like, okay, that's weird. Andthen I thought for a second, you
(41:53):
know, I thought, I want her onmy team. I want her on my team.
And if we will stop assigningweird and different, and start
to see and say, Wait a second.
No, no, I want you on my team. Iwant you on my team. We're all
bringing in the kingdomtogether. We need each other. I
think that's just such a betterposture
Joshua Johnson (42:11):
of living. One of the postures some people take
is that the spirit builds me upand I get to be powerful, like I
get to find directions, or I getto do this because, and they
make it about themselves. Whenwe are with Holy Spirit, what
posture should we take, and howshould we be with and what is
(42:32):
it? What is then, the fruit ofthe interaction with the spirit
that doesn't just buildourselves up, but maybe builds
others up? Yeah,
Margaret Feinberg (42:41):
I think one is just, you know, one of the
things I love to ask Holy Spiritis what is on your heart today,
and sometimes it's a person or agroup of people to, you know,
invite a couple people over todinner, to go and reach out to
that person, to go and serve. Ithink Holy Spirit is always
going to be at times. There istimes Holy Spirit builds us up
(43:02):
and ministers to us, but it isan out. It is an other oriented
existence. And sometimes hegives us glimpses. I think there
is that when we gather withother believers. And yes, going
to church is amazing, butgathering believers not just
looking at the back of theirheads, okay, like in this kind
of conversation where you'resharing the richness of Liberia
(43:24):
in the Middle East and Jesus,there's this thing that happens
that it gets me super excited. Ithink it stirs in you too, that
hunger to see, okay, HolySpirit, let's do it. Let's be a
part of it. And so I think themore we talk about Holy Spirit,
and do it in ways that aren'tweird, but are normal and
bibliocentric and Christcentered, like, yes, we start to
(43:45):
get to live out theopportunities of this.
Yesterday, I, you know, I did alittle teaching on Instagram
about Holy Spirit, and then gotdone, put it up, and literally
drove the grocery store. I pullin a parking spot, and there in
front of me is a woman in a carwho's just weeping her eyes out.
And I was like, whoo, HolySpirit. Here we go. And so it's
(44:07):
weird, right? Like, she's like,sobbing over her, her her
steering wheel, and I'm justlike, so I try to, like, tap on
the front of the hood, and Ididn't get I tapped a little
harder and then a little harder.
And finally she looks up and Igo, Can I hug you? And she comes
out, and I just just weeps,starts to explain that just the
you know, two days before herhusband had been picked up,
arrested for something verytiny, and already ice was there
(44:29):
and he was being deported, shejust had held it together
through Easter weekend for herkids to not let them know their
Dad was going to be gone for andso I just said, Hey, can I get
you a Starbucks in the grocerystore? We sat down, we talked,
you know, and then, you know,reached out to my Christian
community and said, Hey, whereare people who can be counselors
(44:52):
in this legal provision? Youknow, do you have Christian
people there? But how can we getthe body to. To surround you,
and it's a we. It's not a me,it's not us. It's just, you
know, some of us, sometimes areones who pull up in front of a
car on a certain day, but it'sall of us coming together to
bring up the kingdom I want tolike that life, that's
Joshua Johnson (45:14):
the life I want to
Unknown (45:16):
live as well live as follows. Are you tired
Margaret Feinberg (45:20):
and bored like for most of us are, at
least for me, I'll say, from myeducation has exceeded my
obedience. I wanna, I wanna obeyto those quick promptings of the
Spirit that say, Go, respond,apologize, give, make it right.
That's where the fruit and thejoy and the righteousness, the
peace and the delight is. Yes,amen.
Joshua Johnson (45:42):
Amen. So if you could say to us people
listening, if there's somethingthat you would want them to know
about Holy Spirit, what wouldwhat do you want them to know
about Holy Spirit? Holy
Margaret Feinberg (45:53):
Spirit in Hebrew, the word is and it could
be translated breath and HolySpirit is closer than your next
breath. Doesn't matter how youfeel. I go to churches all the
time, and the worship leaderstands up and says, Do you feel
the Holy Spirit here? And myanswer is, nope, nope. I don't.
(46:14):
No like I'll just be honest, butI can acknowledge that Holy
Spirit is here. Each and everyone of us can do that, and we're
invited to do that each andevery day. And one just very
practical way, from the gods,you need to know, just to share,
just very practical way tobecome more attentive of this.
And I learned it from my friendDrake, somebody else in the body
(46:34):
of Christ, loving Jesus. And hesaid, one of the things he does
is he keeps a journal, terriblejournal, journal, but, but he
changed the way I journal. Hesaid, Every day I ask Holy
Spirit one question, this one.
And the question may be, who amI? What's my purpose? What are
you calling me to? Who do youwant me to love today? Just one
question. And then I go throughthe day, and I just keep asking
(46:56):
Holy Spirit that question overand over again, attentive
posture changed to how HolySpirit might be answering that
and then that night, or the nextday, I write it down, and the
next day might write the samequestion, or I may write a
different question. But ratherthan heading off in 10,000
different directions, to focuson just one thing and say, Holy
(47:17):
Spirit, would you answer this?
Do you know answer today? I'mgoing to ask you tomorrow and
watch at how the Holy Spiritresponds. Because my hunches, it
won't be anything new. It willbe like rabbit tracks in the
snow. What Holy Spirit has beendoing all along, but suddenly
your awareness of it hasincreased.
Joshua Johnson (47:36):
That's so good.
Another thing is actuallytalking to the Holy Spirit and
not ignoring Holy Spirit.
Because I don't think there's alot of people out there that
never addressed Holy Spirit intheir life. I think would say, I
will pray to God in the name ofJesus, or I will talk to Jesus,
but they just forget about theHoly Spirit. So if you want to
(47:58):
cultivate a life of the Spirit,you should probably interact
with the Spirit, yeah, like,
Margaret Feinberg (48:04):
know, their wife, you know, like, exactly
their family,
Joshua Johnson (48:10):
exactly. That's good. So if you had one hope for
your readers of the god, youneed to know what is the hope
that you have? Yeah, that
Margaret Feinberg (48:19):
they will, you know, again, I think x2 and
under. Understanding of HolySpirit in the New Testament is
so beautiful and so true and yetso incomplete without
understanding this incrediblelove story and this beauty and
this wisdom and this delightthat is through the Old
Testament. So that as they readthis book and they move through
and I center in on a particularmoment in basically every major
(48:40):
turn in Israel's history, thatby the time you get to Acts two,
you will go, of course, it willhappen this way, and then Holy
Spirit won't seem as odd orstrange or weird. You'd be like,
Oh, this is just a very normalpart of following Jesus, and
that's how it should be for allof
Joshua Johnson (49:01):
us, Yes, amen.
Couple quick questions,Margaret, one, if you go back to
your 21 year old self, whatadvice would you give the call
Margaret Feinberg (49:09):
to follow Jesus and be obedient will be
harder than you ever imagined,
Joshua Johnson (49:16):
but it is worth it. Really good. Anything you've
been reading or watching lately,you could recommend, ooh,
Margaret Feinberg (49:21):
that's a great question. What have I been
reading? I've been reading thisbook by my friend Bob Lentz,
hope for life, and just really,really enjoying it. 365
reflections to anchor your soul.
And I've never seen love dripout of somebody quite like it
drips out of Bob lens.
Joshua Johnson (49:43):
That's great, excellent. How can people get
out get the God you need toknow. Where else would you like
to point people to? Is thereanywhere you'd like to point
Margaret Feinberg (49:51):
the God you need to know? You can find it on
Amazon, all of your favoriteonline retailers, as well as the
Bible study, the God you need toknow. Uh, succession streaming
that just takes people throughabout a dozen different
practices to awaken to arelationship with Holy Spirit.
So yeah, enjoy those. I'm onInstagram, Margaret Feinberg,
(50:13):
all those kind of things,Facebook, all the things. But
yeah, enjoy the book. May, Mayyou read it, and may Holy Spirit
just as close as your next.
Joshua Johnson (50:23):
Amen, well.
Margaret, thank you for thisconversation. Thank you for
illuminating the Holy Spirit forus and actually inspiring us to
interact with the spirit andhave good conversations to bring
some wisdom and discernment andsome some healing figure out
dreams and where the Holy Spiritis speaking, that in the midst
of chaos and destruction, thatthe Holy Spirit will be hovering
(50:44):
and be with us, that there'sgoing to be some peace and joy
and righteousness and beautifulthings with the Spirit, that we
could do this in community, thatwe could be with one another in
Christ and so thank you. It wasa fantastic conversation. I
really enjoyed talking to you. Iappreciate you. You.
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