June 10, 2025 • 50 mins
Today, we have a powerful and deeply honest conversation with Naeem Fazal, author of "Tomorrow Needs You." Naeem grew up in Kuwait in a Pakistani Muslim family, survived the Gulf War, and eventually found himself in the U.S. grappling with questions of identity, fear, and faith. What followed was a series of raw, spiritual encounters that opened his heart to Jesus in ways he never expected. In our conversation, we talk about what it means to find hope when everything feels lost. Naeem shares how the beauty of Jesus began to reshape his story, and why perfect love, not just faith, is what truly drives out fear. We explore the idea that hope isn't something we chase after, but something the Holy Spirit grows within us. This conversation is a reminder that beauty matters, that creating something - even something small - can pull us into the presence of God, and that tomorrow does, in fact, need you. Join us as we create something beautiful.
Naeem Fazal, a Pakistani, was born and raised in Kuwait. He grew up in a Muslim family, was a teenager in the midst of the Gulf War, and came to the United States in 1992. He had a supernatural experience with Christ that changed the course of his life. He is the author of Ex-Muslim and Tomorrow Needs You, and the founding pastor of Mosaic Church in Charlotte, NC. Naeem and his wife Ashley have two amazing children and unfortunately two cats.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Naeem Fazal (00:00):
Jesus says it's perfect love that casts out
(00:04):
fear. So if you want to fightfear, you don't fight it with
faith. You fight it with love.
That's the only way to do it.
Joshua Johnson (00:22):
You Joshua, hello and welcome to the
shifting culture podcast inwhich we have conversations
about the culture we create andthe impact we could make. We
long to see the body of Christlook like Jesus. I'm your host.
Joshua Johnson, today we have apowerful and deeply honest
conversation with Naeem Faisal,author of tomorrow needs you.
(00:43):
Naim grew up in Kuwait, in aPakistani Muslim family,
survived the Gulf War andeventually found himself in the
US, grappling with questions ofidentity, fear and faith. What
followed was a series of rawspiritual encounters that opened
his heart to Jesus in ways henever expected. In our
conversation, we talk about whatit means to find hope when
(01:03):
everything feels lost. Naeemshares how the beauty of Jesus
began to reshape his own story,and why perfect love, not just
faith, is what truly drives outfear. We explore the idea that
hope isn't something we chaseafter, but something the holy
spirit grows within us. Thisconversation as a reminder that
beauty matters, that creatingsomething, even something small,
(01:25):
can pull us into the presence ofGod and that tomorrow does, in
fact, need you so join us as wecreate something beautiful. Here
is my conversation with NaeemFaisal Naim, welcome to shifting
culture. Really, really excitedto have you on thanks for
joining me.
Naeem Fazal (01:42):
Oh man, my pleasure. I'm looking forward to
this. So thank you. Thank youfor having me. Yeah, I'm really
Joshua Johnson (01:48):
excited to dig into beauty. Your book tomorrow
needs you is fantastic, andwe're going to be talking about
the themes and ideas aroundthere. But I'd love to, like,
walk into some of your story,because part of I think your
story is a place where you'refiguring out, does tomorrow
really need me at all? You'vehad a really incredible story
(02:10):
growing up. Pakistani, born inKuwait, after the Gulf War came
to America. Did the beauty ofChrist draw you? And how So, how
did the beauty of Christ drawyou in the midst of your story?
Man,
Naeem Fazal (02:24):
yeah, good question. Good question. I
think, I think when it comes tobeauty, number one, you know,
it's a process like, I thinkthat sometimes we are awestruck
by beauty, right? You look atsomething, you go instantly.
You're like, I love this thing.
This is awesome. And then thereis, there is a deeper sense of
beauty, where you learn to see,oh my goodness, how beautiful
this relationship is, thisperson, is this idea is this
(02:47):
world is it's like, it's like,the idea of like, you get
infatuated, and that's great.
You get attracted. But deepsense of beauty is really comes
with understanding and some timeand growth and looking around
and really considering all thethings, the idea of making
something beautiful is to like,make that thing bigger, like, to
(03:10):
make it bigger. And there's aprocess to that. Just the idea
of like, you don't you have toget there at some point, and
when you get there with time,it's deeper sense of beauty. So
yeah, for me, you know, my fam,my my story is crazy. Because,
yeah, I was born raised inKuwait as a Pakistani come from,
(03:30):
you know, a big family, twobrothers, two sisters. So yeah,
we were all born raised inKuwait and as Muslims and so,
you know, to your question, Ididn't really know Jesus, or I
didn't know Christ. I didn'tknow the gospel. I didn't know
anything about Christianity.
Grew up in Muslim household, ina Muslim country, even though
(03:52):
I'm Pakistani, and the countrywas Kuwait, but still Sunni
Muslim.
Joshua Johnson (04:00):
So, you know, I'd love to hear I was in my
wife and I were in the MiddleEast. We were in Jordan for many
years. We work with Syrianrefugees primarily. So had lots
of conversation with withMuslims in their in their living
rooms. And at that point, a lotof Syrians that we were
encountering had dreams andvisions of Jesus. They were
(04:21):
really attracted to the storiesof Jesus and what Jesus and the
Gospels bring, in the hope thathe brought, as somebody who grew
up Sunni Muslim, how did Jesusdraw you?
Naeem Fazal (04:34):
So I had quite the adventure. I feel like, like I
mentioned, we all, you know, wewere in Kuwait. My older
brother, though he's he gotaccepted to a college in the US,
and so he he gets a studentvisa, and he comes to Johnson,
South Carolina, and he's there.
And in 1990 this was a couple ofyears before he had left, or
(04:55):
after he left, Iraq invadedKuwait, if you. Member. And so
we were stuck in the war, and wedecided not to leave. And so we
were there throughout the wholeoccupation, liberation, the
whole thing. And so it wasinteresting to see a beautiful
country, you know, be ravishedby war, destroyed. And before
(05:15):
Saddam Hussein left, he, youknow, he made sure that you
destroyed some of the key thingsthat would, you know, hurt in
one sense, it was it would, hejust tried to destroy things
that just didn't make any sense,but they were kind of a these
statues or these symbols ofbeauty in Kuwait, so you'd want
to destroy that. So I come tothe end of the war and, and my
(05:37):
dad's like, you know, so youhaven't graduated from high
school, because, you know, I wasin a war and and lost couple of
years there and, and so he said,you know, you want to go and try
to see if you can get to the US,like, try to see if you can go
to college or go go to yourbrother and or you could start
working here. And, you know, forme, I was kind of like, I don't
(05:57):
know what to do, because beingin Kuwait, living there, you're
still immigrant there. Eventhough I was born there, I'm
still an immigrant because theydon't give citizenships to
people who are not Kuwaiti. Andso got on a tourist visa and
took a flight and came to the USand yeah, connected with my
brother. He was in Johnson. Ihad no idea what to expect. All
(06:19):
I knew, though, is I remember aconversation my brother and I
had several years ago in whichhe had told me that he was a
Christian, and I threatened tokill him. So it was a very bad
conversation. And so now I'm theI'm in the States, and I'm with
him, and he's introducing me tohis friends. I mean, day one.
(06:42):
And I know that these guys areall Christians. I mean, they're
like, not just Americans.
They're like, I don't know. Ithought they were a cult, you
know. I was like, What's wrongwith him? So he invited me to
this thing called FCA Fellowshipof Christian Athletes, you know.
And I was like, not interestedat all about you know. And then
he was like, Hey, listen,there's some cute girls there.
There's a there's people youwant to meet. You be good. And I
(07:05):
was like, Well, what do I haveto lose? And so I showed up, and
that's where her first heard thegospel of Jesus. I first heard
the good news. I heard this ideaof the possibility of a
personal, intimate relationshipwith the Creator of the
Universe. That's where I heardwhere the Jesus came and to come
and sacrifice for my sins, totake away my sins, to bring
(07:27):
redemption, not just for me, butfor the world, to open access to
heaven, to give me the HolySpirit. I mean, all these
concepts that I was like this istoo good to be true, because in
Islam, you know, God isreverent. God is almighty. He's
merciful, but he's not reallypersonal, you know. And if you
know anything about Islam, whichI know, you do, you know you
(07:50):
pray in one particular language,in one particular direction, in
particular times, on aparticular mat and particular
prayers. Needless to say, it'snot really intimate, in a sense,
you know, because I can't reallytalk to God in my own language,
because I speak Urdu, and theprayers were in Arabic. And so
when I heard about the gospel, Iwas like, Oh, I don't know. And,
(08:11):
but my brother was convinced, ifI were to ask Jesus to reveal
himself, he would do it. Andyeah, so that led to one night.
I was a crazy night.
Joshua Johnson (08:23):
Take me into that crazy night. What did it
look like? How did Jesus revealhimself?
Naeem Fazal (08:28):
I was at FCA one night. It was a Tuesday night,
and they ended in prayer, youknow, they closed it up, and I
just looked up and I just like,I just said to myself, you know,
if this is even half true, Iwant to know that was it, but it
was a sincere prayer. It wassincere. I was directing it to
Jesus. And so three nightslater, I'm in my room trying to
(08:49):
fall asleep, and I was reading abook, and I put the book down,
and I'm about to shut off thelamp light that was right next
to my bed, and and as I reachfor it, I noticed that the room
gets really strange. My bodystarts reacting to something I
can't really understand. And I Istart looking around, and I
don't know what Joshua I feltlike. Felt like death walked in.
(09:12):
And I'm kind of freaking out,but I don't even know why. Like,
I just don't understand what'sgoing on as I'm trying to look
around process this, somethinggrabs my shoulders, physically
drags me and pins me to mypillow. And now I am totally
freak out mode, and I'm tryingto wrestle out of it, and I
noticed that something grabs mylegs as well and basically
(09:34):
paralyzes me. And I can't reallymove, and the only thing I can
move is my neck, and I'm lookingaround, trying to try and toss
and turn and but I can't. And soI started screaming out, you
know, and then I realized Ican't hear myself, like I'm
screaming, but I can't hearmyself, and I'm like, am I
asleep? Then slowly, the dooropened up and, and I thought my
(09:55):
brother heard me from the otherroom, and and in walks this
thing. And, you know, I grew upMuslim. So we're not really into
demons or anything like that,you know, we believe in these
jinns, but not really, you know,demonic warfare or demonic we
don't have a demonic theology inone sense. And so, yeah, this
thing starts walking up, andit's, I mean, I can kind of,
it's like a it startscommunicating to me, and it
(10:18):
says, I want to kill you, and Ibelieve it. And it gets closer
and closer, and I joke about it,because at that point I'm, like,
I was praying to every god outthere, you know, Allah, Bucha,
Oprah, you know, I'm saying,anybody, you know. I'm like,
Who? And then I thought I tickedoff someone, I upset someone. So
I either upset Allah, because Iwent to FCA and I, you know, and
(10:43):
then I thought maybe, maybe Ithis is Jesus. I mean, he looks
nothing like the pictures, butI'm just thinking, maybe this is
Jesus, because I had made fun ofJesus. I, you know, debated I
would have made I was not kindtowards it, you know, I wasn't
laying those and so anyways, Igot closer, and I just thought
(11:05):
it was going to be the end of meand and I think I want to say
Joshua. I think I I rememberedJesus, or I saw him in my mind.
I don't know exactly whathappened, but the thing reached
my bed and stopped, and then itdisappeared. And then whatever
was holding me let go, and I'mjust stunned in my bed, going,
(11:28):
what just happened? And I lookaround the room, still kind of
strange, but I slowly get up. Ilook around, run out of the
room, wake up my brother andtell him what's going on. And so
as I tell him the story, I'mthinking, he's thinking, you
know, he's gonna say, Oh, youwere just dreaming this. This
stuff is not real. Like, that'swhat I was really expecting to
(11:49):
him, you know, or maybe evenhoping that he would say,
stuff's not real. And he tellsme the opposite. He says, this
stuff is in the Bible. And I'mlike, what? Because I had never
read the Bible. I never held theBible. I I just thought it was
like, you know, just a holy bookthat had a lot of concepts no
(12:09):
one could understand, like oneof the holy books, you know? And
he was like, No, there's storiesof Jesus encountering demons.
And it blew my mind. I'm like,what he was like, Yes, he did
this and that. So he startstalking to me about that, and I
asked him, so what do you what'shappening to me? Like, what do
you think has happened to me?
Like, am I possessed? Like, I'mlike, I'm thinking all kinds of
thoughts, right? And he waslike, no, no. He's like, I think
(12:32):
this is the enemy trying to getyou're just trying to scare you
and this and that and that. Andthen he tells me some other
things, and then he tells memore about Jesus. And you know,
we're going for an hour. Andfinally, I'm like, you know, you
know what? I I need some help,man. I I just feel like there's
something out to kill me. Andthen so my brother says
something to me that I'll neverforget. He says, Well, I know
(12:53):
only one person who hasauthority over demons and
angels. And I was like, Well,who? And he said, Jesus. And I
was like, well, all right, thenwhat do we do? What do we do?
And he was like, All right, weyou need to ask him to come to
your life. You want to ask himto and I was like, All right,
let's do it. And so we, we, wedo right there, you know? And,
(13:13):
and my first prayer to Jesus,because he was gonna, he was
asking me to repeat after him,you know? I mean, now I know
it's like, kind of the sinnersprayer kind of thing, but I
wanted to say something, so Isaid, the first thing I said is,
I said, Jesus, I don't know whoyou are, so I can't say you're
the Lord of my life. I don'tknow you. I can't say I love
you. I can't make any promises,because I don't know you. But if
(13:36):
you, if you save me from this,I'll give you my life. So then
I, you know, said that paradewith my brother, amen. Amen. My
brother's still excited. He wasso happy, you know. And I'm
still scared to death, you know,exactly. And I was like, okay,
so I thought something wouldchange. And he was like, All
(13:57):
right, all right, man, I'll seeyou in the morning. And I was
like, Oh, I'm sleeping with you,like, I'm spooning you, you
know. And he goes, No, no, I'llgo back in the room. I'm like,
Are you out of your mind? Like,did you not hear what I just
said? So he says, here, here,take this. And he gives me a
Bible. And the Bible was smallerthan my iPhone, you know, I'm
(14:19):
saying it was one of those,those Gideons, Bibles, you know,
those New Testament, the greenones, the small, old school
ones. And I was like, this isthe Bible. And he was like, no,
no, this is the new just the NewTestament, or just the Gospels.
And I was like, okay, okay. Andin my head, I'm like, you know,
(14:40):
can you give me somethingbigger, like, you know, I'm
against demons here. And he waslike, No, don't worry about it.
Just go. Just go read, John.
I'll see you in the morning. AndI was like, All right, so I went
back in the room, turn all thelights, and I'm reading. And I
mean, have you gotten to a pointwhere you're so scared and so
spooked that everything. Is,like, making sounds, you know?
(15:02):
I'm saying it's like, it gets soeerie, and I'm like, Oh my gosh,
what is that? What is that?
Who's breathing? I'm like, oh,that's me. Okay, you know? So
then I I'm trying to read,trying to process what happened,
and I just get so frustrated,and I go, what's going on. It
had been three weeks. I had justbeen, you know, I've been to
(15:22):
states for just three weeks. I'dgone through a war. I had now
I'm getting I don't even havereal problems. I have demon
problems. I'm like, What isgoing on? Am I losing my mind?
And then I'm like, getting mad.
I'm like, Why me? Like, why ishappening to me? I don't want to
do any of this. I don't wantthis. I don't want any of this.
So I put the Bible down, and nowI'm full on just mad. Shut off
(15:47):
the lights, got back in my bed,I looked up again and I said,
Jesus, if I die tonight, it isyour fault. I don't know why I
was saying that. Just want youto know my prayer. Life's gotten
better, though, okay, but so Isay that, I put the covers on my
head, hoping nothing happens,and the next thing I know,
something is trying to shake me.
And I'm like, Oh my gosh, thisis round two. And, yeah, man, I
was hoping to not see anything,because I was like, just keep
(16:12):
your eyes closed. You know,that's my that was my thought.
And I found myself sitting on mybed with my eyes open and
staring right at him, like it'sso interesting, because I don't
know I was like, I was lookingat Jesus, but I was inside of
him. It was the surreal, themost strangest thing, and a
voice said, I am Jesus, and yourlife is not your own. And I
(16:36):
remember thinking, I rememberthinking, like I couldn't keep
my eyes off of him, but Icouldn't keep my eyes open. Like
it felt like, like this bodycould not be in that presence,
like I had entered in just forlike, it's like, I know it's
kind of goofy, but like, it'slike, when you enter into a
portal, or something, you know,like, or something like a
(16:59):
different dimension, and I justcouldn't even understand it. But
I'm like, I can stay awake. Icannot, yeah, all I remember is
him saying, I am Jesus, and yourlife is not your own. And the
next morning, I mean, I woke upand I had gotten this download,
I had gotten this. I wassupposed to be in ministry, I
was supposed to do this. I wassupposed to do that. And then,
(17:21):
yeah, that led me to just pursuethat full on. Went to my
brother, told him about that.
And then, yeah, the journey ofunderstanding what the Bible is,
what is Christian community,what is church? I'd never been
to church, no denominations, soas I was learning the US. But
also, you know, starting, youknow, I didn't date for three
(17:43):
years, man, because I felt andGod was saying, you got to know
me, you know, I was prime, likein college. I didn't date for
three years. It's crazy. That'scrazy.
Joshua Johnson (17:54):
What a encounter with Jesus. I think a lot of
people may not have had demonicexperiences, you know, at night,
but we're living in a day andage where so many people are
pressed down with depression,anxiety, with fear, feeling like
a people are pinning you to theto the bed, and they're
(18:15):
wondering if there is any hopefor tomorrow, if I matter, if it
matters that we actually existor we live, where does hope come
for people in the midst ofreally difficult depression and
fear and things that saying Ican't go on? Yeah, where does
hope find its way? That's great
Naeem Fazal (18:37):
question. So for me, what I realized is, is that
when I came to Christ and becomebecame a follower and began to
really dive into the teachingsof Jesus, and then allowing the
Holy Spirit to work my life,understanding who God was, the
generosity of God, the goodnessof God, what I realized most
importantly and fundamentally isthat when people come to a god,
(19:01):
or when they usually comethrough religion. So religion
tells them, this is who God is,this is how he works. This is
this is how it is, and this whatyou're supposed to do to connect
with God. And so fundamentally,with religion is that there's
this idea of like you have to doa set of things, and you have to
figure it out, get it together,to get your life in order and
(19:23):
and then start following and bea good, whatever, Christian,
Hindu, Buddhist, whatever, withthe life of Jesus, what I
realized is that the when youstart a relationship with Him,
the Holy Spirit comes and andmakes you the temple where he
resides in You know, Paul talksabout the your bodies are a
temple of the Holy Spirit. Don'tyou know that? And he goes, so
(19:46):
there is a spirit of God that'sworking in me. Ephesians says
that's able to do immeasurablymore than I can ask or imagine.
He's, he's in me. He's able todo so God is, I'm inviting God
in and it's, he's growing insideof me. You. You know, it's like
the, I know it's the goofyanalogy, but the Alien movies,
you know that it gets in thereand it starts growing out, you
(20:07):
know, just, you can't controlit. I know this is great. I
just,
Joshua Johnson (20:11):
I'm just hoping the Holy Spirit doesn't just,
like, pop out of my belly,right? Explodes, you know
exactly.
Naeem Fazal (20:18):
Big difference there, yeah. But the idea of
like the the Holy Spirit growinginside of us. And what he's
doing is he's not just growinginside of us as we allow Him to
and allow Him and be humbleabout it, and be open and
authentic and vulnerable, but heis growing us up as well and
changing us from the inside outthe and that's how we get the
(20:39):
fruits of the Spirit and allthat. And one of those is
perseverance. One of those isconnected to hope and see, what
I realized is the big differencewith hope is that I used to look
to things for hope. You go, Igotta I gotta hope. I gotta
hope. But then we realize isthere's a hope that's growing
inside of me. There's a hopewithin me, and that's the big
(21:02):
difference. And so when peoplego, man, I just need some hope.
I just need some hope. Whatthey're thinking and hoping for
is to find something that grabstheir attention, that gives them
the security that they can lookto. Instead of going, Hey, Jesus
said I'm giving you a hope, ahope that does not disappoint.
I'm giving you a spirit. I'mgiving you peace, not like the
(21:24):
world gives, not not that youcan muster up, no that lives
inside of you. And so I wouldsay the the biggest thing that
people have need to understandis is that that that sometimes
the must trying to muster upthings within you, just striving
or like I just got to lock in. Ijust gotta do the thing. I just
gotta get a better attitude. Ican't, like, Will myself out of
(21:45):
depression. I can't will myselfout of hopelessness. And what we
have to go is, Hey, God is doinga work in, like, allowing God to
work inside of us. Because, Imean, we were created
beautifully, but sin broke us,and so now we are the broken
becoming beautiful. And then ifyou allow God's spirit to move
inside of us, I write about itin my book tomorrow. Needs you
(22:08):
is that we are actually thebroken creating beauty. We're
called to create beauty, butthat's because there's a work
that God is doing within us. SoI think a lot of people struggle
with hopelessness, but and mydad did too. In fact, he's the
reason why I wrote this book,and he's the reason why the
title is called, tomorrow needsyou. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (22:31):
the story that you start out with your book is
the story of your dad. It brokemy heart that there is a vibrant
man that then later on in hislife, depression hits and he
doesn't want to go on anymore.
It's a really heartbreakingstory, in a sense like that. How
do you let people know thattomorrow needs you? How do you
say especially well, in a placeof, I mean, let's just talk
(22:53):
about somebody who doesn't havethe spirit of hope, living
inside of them, growing andmoving forward. Yeah, what does
that look like to help peoplemove towards that, or maybe even
open their arms to surrender,their hands to surrender and
say, Maybe I need a hope insideof me, and it's not just a
striving or transactional hope.
Naeem Fazal (23:15):
I think that for me, this book that I wrote has
so many amazing stories ofpeople who've come out of trauma
and come out of despair. Andthis really about post traumatic
growth, but it is fundamentallychanging the way you think about
(23:35):
life and seeing a life. Sothere's a amazing passage in
scripture that talks aboutJesus. It says that for the joy
set before Him, He endured thecross. And there's this idea
that Jesus set a picture of abeautiful humanity that was
(23:55):
worth dying for. And I thinkthat when we, you and I, hit a
point of like, I look around andman, things are just going
downhill, even, even now in theculture, it's just there's if
you want to worry about things,there's plenty of things to
worry about. If you want to bedepressed about things, there's
plenty of things to be depressedabout. You want to be anxious.
(24:16):
This is the time to be anxiousbecause, I mean, you've got it
all over. You see it all over.
And so when it comes to fear ofanything, usually we say, hey,
faith. Faith is what you need.
You just need to believe and youjust need to have faith, because
faith is the solution to fear.
You know, faith not fear. Now Irespect that. I understand where
(24:42):
people are coming from, butfaith sometimes fails us. Here's
why, because faith is theopposite of fear. It's not the
solution. Fear is no it's love.
Is actually the solution. I. Imean, so Jesus says it's perfect
love that casts out fear. So ifyou want to fight fear, you
(25:08):
don't fight it with faith. Youfight it with love. That's the
only way to do it. In thescriptures, he's talking about
exactly the perfect love, likeGod's love, this love that says
there's no punishment, that Godloves you. He sent His Son for
you. It's John 316, all overagain. So I think that
fundamentally, people have to goif I'm going to see beauty
around me, if I'm gonna createbeauty around me. That's one of
(25:29):
the things my dad could not see.
He could not see the beautifulthings around him, like he
actually, literally said,Tomorrow does not need me. And I
was like, Dad, don't you see thebeautiful things? Because what
he couldn't see Is he couldn'tsee the loving thing, loving
people around. He couldn't seelove all around. He couldn't see
beauty all around. And beautyand love are so interconnected,
so interconnected. Becausebeautiful something being
(25:52):
beautiful, is something thatyou're attracted to, that you
love, like, like you'reattracted to it. You know, it's
not, it's not it's not just somethings are beautiful and other
things are not. No no. Beauty isanything someone loves. And so
you and I have got to have abeautiful for example, you have
to have a beautiful vision todismantle the anxiety in your
(26:12):
life. You have to put somethingbeautiful before you that's
bigger than you, to conquer thefear inside of you. See,
sometimes what we say is we,like, we have to muster up
faith, or whatever will courageto conquer the fear inside of
us. So I gotta figure outmyself, to figure out the con.
(26:34):
Like, I gotta get this one guyfighting this other guy inside
of me. You know, I'm saying likeit's that's how you do it. But
Jesus always put somethingbefore him. David says, I have
set the Lord before me. He's atmy right hand. I will not be
moved. It's always this idea ofsetting something before Paul
said, Hey, I'm not lookingbehind. I set my eyes on the
(26:56):
author and finisher of thefaith. I'm moving forward. I'm
pressing on, I'm doing this. Andso I think it's something
simple. Do you have a beautifulcommunity? Do you have a
beautiful relationship? Do youhave a beautiful vision? Because
all these things give you thepower to dismantle, to conquer
fear, worry, anxiety in yourlife, you gotta put something
(27:18):
beautiful in front of you todismantle the fear inside of
Joshua Johnson (27:25):
you. I was getting my Masters, and I was
working with war refugees in theMiddle East. I was living in the
desert, and this quote from RayBucha in a theology as big as
the city, really stuck out tome. It says this, in Exodus 31
and 35 we find the first gift ofthe Holy Spirit mentioned in the
entire Bible, an art committee.
Why? Why does a poor, unemployedmigrant group on public aid for
(27:48):
food need the arts? Luther knewthe reason when he expressed
that the poor need beauty asmuch as they need bread, because
they live in ugliness. So Moseslet the arts emerge along with
them, health laws to addressenvironmental concerns. Man,
that's so good for me. Like nowI constantly go back. I was
like, Oh, the first gift of theHoly Spirit was the arts. Was
(28:10):
beauty. Was something that,especially for people wandering
in the desert, they neededbeauty set before them so that
they can continue on. You. Youtalk there about beauty and
relationships, beauty andcommunity, beautiful vision.
What is beauty for you? What arewe what are we working towards?
(28:31):
What are we looking to find?
Naeem Fazal (28:35):
So I'm a painter.
I'm an artist. You know, I usedto say I dabble in the arts, but
that means something else. MaybeI doodle in the arts. Maybe I
should start
Joshua Johnson (28:46):
Yes, well, if you're a Harry Potter, if you
dabble on the dark arts, goingon the dark side, sorry, that's
Naeem Fazal (28:53):
yeah. So even if you see the book cover, you
know, it's, it's very artsy. Igave the the publishers were
great, because they they lookedat my some of my stuff that I
have online, and things likethat. And I've always I thought
before I was called to theministry, before everything
changed in my life. I mean, Icame into the states thinking I
was going to be an art major, sothat was going to be the thing.
(29:13):
And so Beauty for me was justthis idea of, like, I just love
beauty around me. Now, yourquestion is so important,
though, because I think peopleneed to fundamentally understand
that it's the process ofcreating something that's
beautiful. It's It's theprocess. It's not the final
product. The final product issomeone else appreciating your
(29:34):
work. So what is beautiful toyou because you made it, what
beauty did to you while you weremaking it is different from
someone else appreciating. So wego, oh, all I need is just some
I just need things toappreciate. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yes, yes. For sure. For sure. Weneed to visually look at it,
because our senses areheightened by that. We are, we
(29:56):
are human, we we have, we'recomplex. We. So we can feel and
sense and we can be encouragedby just looking at something, or
the opposite, discouraged byjust looking at something. But
there's a different, deeper,like I said, sense of beauty
when you create, see. So that'swhy, I think, when you're Do you
have a beautiful vision? Do youhave a beautiful community that
(30:20):
you're building. Do you haverelationships you're getting
deeper with? Did you havebeautiful relationship with God
that you're moving towards? Areyou creating something so just
simply said, it's the process ofcreating that unlocks something
inside of us, because that'swhen we're like the closest to
God, because he is a creator,and so when we create, we're
(30:44):
acting like him. And it could becreating a spreadsheet. I mean,
it literally could be anything,but we we get excited. We're
like, look at what I did. That'swhy kids will draw ridiculous
paintings and go and we're like,that's great. That's wonderful.
But what it did to them creatingit is different than what you
(31:07):
thought about it. I'm saying,look around and let's create
something in the midst of beautythat's so
Joshua Johnson (31:14):
good. I mean, it just reminds me of the movie
Life is beautiful, of him tryingto create in in the in the
Holocaust, at a death camp, he'strying to create beauty for his
his son. He's saying that lifeis beautiful, even despite our
circumstances. But the processof creation, what you're saying,
(31:35):
I think it's so key, because nowwe're getting back to who we
are, like, we're co creators.
We're made in the image of God.
So this is, this is our, ourcore nature as people who create
like and so when we have fear,depression, anxiety, all of
those things where we only seethe ugliness of the world, soon
(31:59):
as we people get caught up inthe I can't don't have any
energy to create. I can't get upduring the day, can't do
anything. So when we're inthought like that, where I have
no desire to create, but I knowthat Beauty will save me, and
creation will save me. How do Ijust try and get up when I have
(32:26):
no energy or no impetus to wantto do it? I
Naeem Fazal (32:31):
believe that I, you know, COVID. COVID is a great
example of me being that personyou just described. I don't have
the energy to do this anotherday, you know? And we all, we
all went through all kinds ofthings in during COVID, but all
of us definitely were coping inall kinds of ways, right, trying
(32:52):
to figure it out. And I wouldsay, coping, you know, people
say, you know, well, you're justcoping. Well, coping tells you
that you're still alive. It'syour body telling you, hey, you
got to do something. Because I'mdying, I got to do something. So
I don't blame people for coping.
Now the problem is, is thatsometimes it can get super
unhealthy, but it's coping is agood sign that says, hey, you
(33:14):
got to do something. So when itcomes to
Joshua Johnson (33:18):
how many yellow tortilla chips did you have?
Naeem Fazal (33:21):
Yeah, I had a lot.
I had a lot, you know what I'mtalking about. You know, it was
not till, until, like, you know,until my son was like, Hey,
you're, you're, you haveanxiety. And I was like,
whatever. Man shut the door. Theissue was, is that the reason
why I did not want to get uptoday and do the things I need
to do is because I rememberedyesterday. I remember that I did
(33:43):
it yesterday. I had lost it.
Like, you know, we grew thisorganization, we grew this
church, we grew this things, wehad these relationships. I did
all that work, I lost it. So thereason why people don't want to
go into today, they don't wantto engage today is not because
(34:03):
I'm just in a bad mood. It'sbecause my body remembers
yesterday. My mind focuses onyesterday and goes because if
yesterday was killer, I wouldget up. If yesterday was great,
I would get up. Because I'mlike, oh, it's gonna be another
great day, it's gonna be anothergreat day. So I would say,
(34:24):
first, hey, if you're thatperson, remember, remember
yesterday, you're going back toyesterday. Hey, yesterday has
forgotten you. It's like arelationship that you used to
have, and they've moved on, andyou haven't. You can't go back
to it because, because it's,it's the because hope doesn't
live there. Like hope lives inthe future. It doesn't live in
(34:44):
the past. The past, actually, ifyou try to go back to it,
because we want to go back toit, and I've wanted to go back
to it sometimes, becausesometimes it was good. You know,
there were times were good, theglory days, or something,
whatever, things were great.
When I go back to it, the pastis too small for you to. Live
in. It's too small for you livein. And by the way, it's too
small for God to fit in wideopen spaces the future. The the
(35:06):
next thing God says, Hey,behold, I'm doing a new thing,
like, forget the past. I'm doinga new thing. Do you not see it?
Do you not see it? It's, it'swhen the people of God we're in
exile to Babylon. What do youthink happened? Get up every day
going, we're exiled. We losteverything. I want to go back. I
want to go back back home. We'rein Babylon. I want to go back to
(35:30):
Jews. I want to go back and Godin the middle of that says, hey,
there are prophets that tellingyou that just hold on, and it's
going to turn around. Just holdon. Keep thinking about keep the
memory alive. And then Jeremiahcomes in and goes, hey, those
prophets are lying to you thatGod did not send them. What's
the message then? Well, youdon't want to hear it, but
(35:53):
here's the message. The messageis, plant gardens. Start
relationships again. Build homesstart again. And they're like,
why would why? Why do I don'twant to stay here? Why do I
plant a garden? You know howlong it takes? Like, why do we
want to do he said, Do this?
(36:13):
Pray for the peace of where youare right now. Like, build
homes. Don't dwindle. And it's agreat picture of like, what
happens when we want to go backin the past, when we go on the
past, our present starts todwindle, or we just get drained,
and maybe our past, or maybe ourfuture just is never created. So
(36:34):
God says, Hey, listen, I've gotgreat plans for you. You know,
with Jeremiah 2911 right? Planfor hope in the future, but you
got to do this. What
Joshua Johnson (36:42):
has been helpful for you is there practice every
day or something where you sayand maybe I'm just coping at the
moment. I don't really want toto move forward, to have a hope
in future. I don't want to planta garden today. Is there
something that that helps moveyou towards actually paying
attention to today and creatingsomething beautiful. I walk a
Naeem Fazal (37:06):
lot at night, or at night I'm on my porch, there's,
there's this, this practice of aI'm just a night owl sometimes,
and nighttime just allows me tojust get rid of all the noise.
So what I would say is thepractice and pace of your life
(37:26):
is really connected to yourpiece, you know, like, so I
gotta have a practice. So therewere times where it started
with, Hey, I would just journalat night, and then it went from
just, I'm just gonna walk atnight, then I'm gonna walk and
listen to worship music atnight, then I'm gonna walk and I
listen to a book. Oh, I walk andtalk to my mom, you know, I'm
make some calls. I'm just gonnawalk at nights. And for me, I
(37:49):
realized that God was likesaying, Hey, you don't have to
always come with, you know,ready to go like, you don't have
to always come and, you know,have something to write or
journal and pray about and listand all that, because there were
times I was like, I just don'twant to pray, I just don't want,
I just don't want to put thatenergy into because I'm going to
(38:10):
feel bad. I'm going to feellike, you know, I'm not that
excited, you know. You know I'mnot. I don't want to say I'm not
in the mood for God, but I'm notin the mood for God, you know.
And what I realized is my soul.
I just really felt, felt this mysoul, and I felt God's Spirit.
Just said, hey, just come andstand close. You don't have to
do anything. Just be close.
Because I always felt like Ineed to do something. So then I
(38:32):
started this practice of like,hey, you know, almost every
night I'm on my porch, andsometimes it's not godly. I
mean, it's like, it's not likeI'm praying and all that I'm
listening to work. No, I'm not.
I'm just I'm creating that pace.
So I would say number one,create a spiritual space and
redefine what spiritual means toyou. Spiritual place means I'm
(38:53):
gonna come separate fromeverybody else that's important,
alone, not totally distracted bytechnology. You can have
technology, but just say, God,this is our time. And sometimes
we just might just listen to abook together, and sometimes I'm
like, opening up my heart, andsometimes I'm crying, and
(39:14):
sometimes I'm listening toworship music for an hour. And
man, Joshua, I mean, I've walkedfor like, maybe two hours,
sometimes maybe two and a halfhour. And I'm just and then I
love doing this, you know, Ilove doing this. I look up at
the night sky. I will stop in myneighborhood, and I will just
look up in the night sky. Andyou know how David said, you
know, when I, when I considerthe heavens, the moon, the
(39:36):
stars, you ordained. What is manthat you're mindful for him,
mindful of him? You know, whatis man that You care for him.
And I have those moments of likeman when I look up. So I would
say, start that kind ofpractice, a spiritual practice
that allows you to just calm thenoise, look up. I think
everybody can do it. I honestlythink so. I mean, whatever, if
(39:59):
you're. Morning person you coulddo in the morning. If you're a
night person,
Joshua Johnson (40:02):
you do at night.
You're an artist, so you like tocreate and to make beautiful
things. When you're standing infront of a blank canvas and
you're like, I don't have anyinspiration. I don't know where
it's coming from. It's notcoming from me right now. I
don't know what to do, becauseI'm sure that's happened, yeah.
Yeah. Where does inspirationcome for you? How do we how do
you get started when you have ablank cap Canvas in front of
(40:27):
you? How do you know what tostart to create?
Naeem Fazal (40:32):
Oh, man, that's such a great question, because
that that moment staring onagain at the canvas, is the
worst moment. So even in ourconversation, of people going,
okay, man, what do I do with mylife? Like, what's the next
thing that's the most terrifyingthing? Like, I'd rather not even
deal with where my life isgoing, because I don't want to
create something because all ofa sudden I'm blank. I don't know
(40:55):
where to go, I just don't knowwhat to do. I had this moment a
couple of days ago, a couple ofdays ago, so I'm trying to do
this a party, like a bookrelease party, and my wife had a
great idea of doing an art showwith it as well and donating the
artwork to a nonprofit inPakistan that sponsors kids in
(41:16):
Pakistan. And I thought, that'sgreat. And she's like, Okay,
well, you have to make thesepaintings. And I was like, Okay,
I'll do it. And so I went, and Iwas like, I'm gonna do wood
Canvas. So I went, went toLowe's got them cut, stained
them and all that. And they justbeen sitting around. And she was
like, hey, so when are you gonnado that? Hey, so when are you
gonna do that? And then what Idid was, you see a picture of my
(41:39):
house, we have a breakfast nookarea. There's no breakfast nook
table. That table has like,stuff on it now, and it's an art
all my supplies are on there.
And so I'd walk by it, it's inthe middle of the house. So
that's one thing I've done, is Iput it in the middle of house,
then it's like, okay, name,okay. And so the other night, I
was like, What? What do I do?
(42:00):
What do I do? So, on Canvas,when you start, you just gotta
go. So the other day I started,and I'm like, where am I going?
And you I can't tell you there'ssome canvases going back to my
dad, for example. I sat downbecause I was watching a show,
this dream COVID, watching ashow, and I was like, I was
(42:20):
like, name, can't just stopwatching the show, just to stop
watching TV and put the tipsdown. And I just got up. I
walked by the table. I just satthere. I just sat down, and I
just started going, and kid younot, Joshua, like I it was a
blank canvas. And I was, Ithink, 15 minutes, or maybe even
(42:44):
10 minutes. It was maybe 40,maybe even less than 30 strokes.
I don't know. I'll show you theI can send you a picture like
maybe even 15 strokes. And Ilooked, and once I was done, I
looked, and I go, Oh my gosh, Ijust painted dad in the midst of
his depression. I painted himthe picture of him, I'm like,
(43:06):
the what he felt. And I waslike, Oh, I like, it shocked me,
and I said to my siblings, andthey were like, Oh my gosh, this
dad. I didn't even plan it. Soall that to say, sometimes you
just, you have to sit there andyou give yourself grace to say
I'm gonna I might createsomething that's stupid or dumb,
or something that no one findspretty, but I will tell you on
(43:29):
good days, I realize that thereis this sense of this might get
weird, but when I say this, butI get into a kind of a trance. I
get into this. I'm just doingthis thing. I'm just doing this
thing. I'm just doing like, Idon't like talking to anybody. I
don't like just I can't, don'tdistract me. Sometimes I'll have
(43:50):
music, I'll just get into it.
And you know what I realized theword genius. You know the word
genius comes from the wordGenie. And so in the Western
world, when we know the wordgenius, we call each other
genius like, oh, you're agenius. But when the word
originated, the idea was thatthere was something beyond you
(44:14):
that came in, did somethingthrough you and left. That was
genius. So it was like a genie.
So I just believe, like, like, Ibelieve the Spirit of God comes
over me, in a sense, doessomething profound and leaves.
(44:36):
It's like, you know, it's notlike, it's not like, I don't
have the Holy Spirit. You know,Paul said, I do, I do. But there
are moments we have anoverflowing of it. And so when
I'm when I when I do something,I'm like, That was genius. When
I look at that term, I don'tthink genius is a person. I
think it's an act. And so nowon. The days I'm like, Man, I
(45:01):
just want to go ahead and justtry something, just because I
just know that I'm going tointeract with the Holy Spirit
and the Spirit of God in a waythat I'll never get to if I
didn't do anything.
Joshua Johnson (45:12):
I have a couple quick questions, yes at the end.
One, if you could go back toyour 21 year old self, what
advice would you give
Naeem Fazal (45:19):
21 year old self, oh, man, I would say, hey, stop
trying to fit in. Stop trying tofit in. I spent a whole lot, a
whole decade or more, trying tofit in. Maybe it's because I was
an immigrant. Always been one,then came here, felt like an
immigrant, but I spent a lot oftime trying to fit in, just
(45:41):
like, you know, hey, you knowyou gotta. It's like code
switching, if you've heard thatterm, yeah, for me, I think I
went not into extremes, but Ijust, yeah, I spent a lot of
time wondering what other peoplethought.
Joshua Johnson (45:55):
I mean, I can't imagine, like, going through
your 20s. I think that's, that'sreally what, what life is in
your 20s, trying to fit in, andbeing an immigrant and saying,
you know you're you're not fromhere, you're feeling a little
out of place, like all of thatexacerbates that. Man, it would
be so great if you know we couldfigure out who we are underneath
(46:16):
all the masks that we wear.
Yeah, so good. Anything you'vebeen reading or watching lately
recommend. You
Naeem Fazal (46:22):
know, I've been listening to a podcast, and it's
not a religious podcast, so I'mnot I don't know if I can
endorse it or not, but honestly,it's really got me thinking in
very different way. It'sactually Trevor Noah's podcast
called what now I listen to alot just because I want to have
a very different perspective.
And do feel like, at the end ofthe day, the podcast really
wants to help the world, and soI think that's, that's a really,
(46:47):
this is really good one. Youknow, I would recommend, light
of our conversation, a bookcalled culture care by Makoto
fujimoru, but that's a greatbook. And again, talking about
why we need beauty, beauty. Imean, this just great book.
There's I love listening to andI listen to books just because
(47:08):
I, you know, I've dyslexia anddysgraphia, so it's hard for me
to read. Listening to bookshelps me so lust for life by
Ivan stone was a great book. Itwas a book on on Van Gogh. Just
a great, great book. Another oneI would recommend, man, in light
of our conversation today, iscalled the war for art. I
(47:32):
believe it's called the war forart, and that is a must read.
Not a Christian book, though,and just FYI, because he has a
mouth on him at times. But, man,he makes such a great case to
come against a resistance in anyform, in terms of mentally and,
you know, and fighting that andyou gotta, you gotta go battle.
(47:58):
You gotta battle to create arttomorrow
Joshua Johnson (48:01):
needs you. It's a fantastic book, and I think
everybody should go and get itand so that they could start to
create some beauty around them,that they could have the hope of
God within them, that there is abeautiful life and future here
for you now. Name, thank you forthis conversation. It was
fantastic to walk through yourstory of Jesus encountering you,
(48:26):
and then living a life of beautyand creation and so that we
could actually be co creatorswith God, that we could actually
be the people that God hascreated us to be. And man, it
was a beautiful conversation. Ireally enjoyed talking to you so
thank you so much, Likewise,
Naeem Fazal (48:43):
likewise, thank you so much. You.
Jesus says it's perfect love that casts out
(00:04):
fear. So if you want to fightfear, you don't fight it with
faith. You fight it with love.
That's the only way to do it.
Joshua Johnson (00:22):
You Joshua, hello and welcome to the
shifting culture podcast inwhich we have conversations
about the culture we create andthe impact we could make. We
long to see the body of Christlook like Jesus. I'm your host.
Joshua Johnson, today we have apowerful and deeply honest
conversation with Naeem Faisal,author of tomorrow needs you.
(00:43):
Naim grew up in Kuwait, in aPakistani Muslim family,
survived the Gulf War andeventually found himself in the
US, grappling with questions ofidentity, fear and faith. What
followed was a series of rawspiritual encounters that opened
his heart to Jesus in ways henever expected. In our
conversation, we talk about whatit means to find hope when
(01:03):
everything feels lost. Naeemshares how the beauty of Jesus
began to reshape his own story,and why perfect love, not just
faith, is what truly drives outfear. We explore the idea that
hope isn't something we chaseafter, but something the holy
spirit grows within us. Thisconversation as a reminder that
beauty matters, that creatingsomething, even something small,
(01:25):
can pull us into the presence ofGod and that tomorrow does, in
fact, need you so join us as wecreate something beautiful. Here
is my conversation with NaeemFaisal Naim, welcome to shifting
culture. Really, really excitedto have you on thanks for
joining me.
Naeem Fazal (01:42):
Oh man, my pleasure. I'm looking forward to
this. So thank you. Thank youfor having me. Yeah, I'm really
Joshua Johnson (01:48):
excited to dig into beauty. Your book tomorrow
needs you is fantastic, andwe're going to be talking about
the themes and ideas aroundthere. But I'd love to, like,
walk into some of your story,because part of I think your
story is a place where you'refiguring out, does tomorrow
really need me at all? You'vehad a really incredible story
(02:10):
growing up. Pakistani, born inKuwait, after the Gulf War came
to America. Did the beauty ofChrist draw you? And how So, how
did the beauty of Christ drawyou in the midst of your story?
Man,
Naeem Fazal (02:24):
yeah, good question. Good question. I
think, I think when it comes tobeauty, number one, you know,
it's a process like, I thinkthat sometimes we are awestruck
by beauty, right? You look atsomething, you go instantly.
You're like, I love this thing.
This is awesome. And then thereis, there is a deeper sense of
beauty, where you learn to see,oh my goodness, how beautiful
this relationship is, thisperson, is this idea is this
(02:47):
world is it's like, it's like,the idea of like, you get
infatuated, and that's great.
You get attracted. But deepsense of beauty is really comes
with understanding and some timeand growth and looking around
and really considering all thethings, the idea of making
something beautiful is to like,make that thing bigger, like, to
(03:10):
make it bigger. And there's aprocess to that. Just the idea
of like, you don't you have toget there at some point, and
when you get there with time,it's deeper sense of beauty. So
yeah, for me, you know, my fam,my my story is crazy. Because,
yeah, I was born raised inKuwait as a Pakistani come from,
(03:30):
you know, a big family, twobrothers, two sisters. So yeah,
we were all born raised inKuwait and as Muslims and so,
you know, to your question, Ididn't really know Jesus, or I
didn't know Christ. I didn'tknow the gospel. I didn't know
anything about Christianity.
Grew up in Muslim household, ina Muslim country, even though
(03:52):
I'm Pakistani, and the countrywas Kuwait, but still Sunni
Muslim.
Joshua Johnson (04:00):
So, you know, I'd love to hear I was in my
wife and I were in the MiddleEast. We were in Jordan for many
years. We work with Syrianrefugees primarily. So had lots
of conversation with withMuslims in their in their living
rooms. And at that point, a lotof Syrians that we were
encountering had dreams andvisions of Jesus. They were
(04:21):
really attracted to the storiesof Jesus and what Jesus and the
Gospels bring, in the hope thathe brought, as somebody who grew
up Sunni Muslim, how did Jesusdraw you?
Naeem Fazal (04:34):
So I had quite the adventure. I feel like, like I
mentioned, we all, you know, wewere in Kuwait. My older
brother, though he's he gotaccepted to a college in the US,
and so he he gets a studentvisa, and he comes to Johnson,
South Carolina, and he's there.
And in 1990 this was a couple ofyears before he had left, or
(04:55):
after he left, Iraq invadedKuwait, if you. Member. And so
we were stuck in the war, and wedecided not to leave. And so we
were there throughout the wholeoccupation, liberation, the
whole thing. And so it wasinteresting to see a beautiful
country, you know, be ravishedby war, destroyed. And before
(05:15):
Saddam Hussein left, he, youknow, he made sure that you
destroyed some of the key thingsthat would, you know, hurt in
one sense, it was it would, hejust tried to destroy things
that just didn't make any sense,but they were kind of a these
statues or these symbols ofbeauty in Kuwait, so you'd want
to destroy that. So I come tothe end of the war and, and my
(05:37):
dad's like, you know, so youhaven't graduated from high
school, because, you know, I wasin a war and and lost couple of
years there and, and so he said,you know, you want to go and try
to see if you can get to the US,like, try to see if you can go
to college or go go to yourbrother and or you could start
working here. And, you know, forme, I was kind of like, I don't
(05:57):
know what to do, because beingin Kuwait, living there, you're
still immigrant there. Eventhough I was born there, I'm
still an immigrant because theydon't give citizenships to
people who are not Kuwaiti. Andso got on a tourist visa and
took a flight and came to the USand yeah, connected with my
brother. He was in Johnson. Ihad no idea what to expect. All
(06:19):
I knew, though, is I remember aconversation my brother and I
had several years ago in whichhe had told me that he was a
Christian, and I threatened tokill him. So it was a very bad
conversation. And so now I'm theI'm in the States, and I'm with
him, and he's introducing me tohis friends. I mean, day one.
(06:42):
And I know that these guys areall Christians. I mean, they're
like, not just Americans.
They're like, I don't know. Ithought they were a cult, you
know. I was like, What's wrongwith him? So he invited me to
this thing called FCA Fellowshipof Christian Athletes, you know.
And I was like, not interestedat all about you know. And then
he was like, Hey, listen,there's some cute girls there.
There's a there's people youwant to meet. You be good. And I
(07:05):
was like, Well, what do I haveto lose? And so I showed up, and
that's where her first heard thegospel of Jesus. I first heard
the good news. I heard this ideaof the possibility of a
personal, intimate relationshipwith the Creator of the
Universe. That's where I heardwhere the Jesus came and to come
and sacrifice for my sins, totake away my sins, to bring
(07:27):
redemption, not just for me, butfor the world, to open access to
heaven, to give me the HolySpirit. I mean, all these
concepts that I was like this istoo good to be true, because in
Islam, you know, God isreverent. God is almighty. He's
merciful, but he's not reallypersonal, you know. And if you
know anything about Islam, whichI know, you do, you know you
(07:50):
pray in one particular language,in one particular direction, in
particular times, on aparticular mat and particular
prayers. Needless to say, it'snot really intimate, in a sense,
you know, because I can't reallytalk to God in my own language,
because I speak Urdu, and theprayers were in Arabic. And so
when I heard about the gospel, Iwas like, Oh, I don't know. And,
(08:11):
but my brother was convinced, ifI were to ask Jesus to reveal
himself, he would do it. Andyeah, so that led to one night.
I was a crazy night.
Joshua Johnson (08:23):
Take me into that crazy night. What did it
look like? How did Jesus revealhimself?
Naeem Fazal (08:28):
I was at FCA one night. It was a Tuesday night,
and they ended in prayer, youknow, they closed it up, and I
just looked up and I just like,I just said to myself, you know,
if this is even half true, Iwant to know that was it, but it
was a sincere prayer. It wassincere. I was directing it to
Jesus. And so three nightslater, I'm in my room trying to
(08:49):
fall asleep, and I was reading abook, and I put the book down,
and I'm about to shut off thelamp light that was right next
to my bed, and and as I reachfor it, I noticed that the room
gets really strange. My bodystarts reacting to something I
can't really understand. And I Istart looking around, and I
don't know what Joshua I feltlike. Felt like death walked in.
(09:12):
And I'm kind of freaking out,but I don't even know why. Like,
I just don't understand what'sgoing on as I'm trying to look
around process this, somethinggrabs my shoulders, physically
drags me and pins me to mypillow. And now I am totally
freak out mode, and I'm tryingto wrestle out of it, and I
noticed that something grabs mylegs as well and basically
(09:34):
paralyzes me. And I can't reallymove, and the only thing I can
move is my neck, and I'm lookingaround, trying to try and toss
and turn and but I can't. And soI started screaming out, you
know, and then I realized Ican't hear myself, like I'm
screaming, but I can't hearmyself, and I'm like, am I
asleep? Then slowly, the dooropened up and, and I thought my
(09:55):
brother heard me from the otherroom, and and in walks this
thing. And, you know, I grew upMuslim. So we're not really into
demons or anything like that,you know, we believe in these
jinns, but not really, you know,demonic warfare or demonic we
don't have a demonic theology inone sense. And so, yeah, this
thing starts walking up, andit's, I mean, I can kind of,
it's like a it startscommunicating to me, and it
(10:18):
says, I want to kill you, and Ibelieve it. And it gets closer
and closer, and I joke about it,because at that point I'm, like,
I was praying to every god outthere, you know, Allah, Bucha,
Oprah, you know, I'm saying,anybody, you know. I'm like,
Who? And then I thought I tickedoff someone, I upset someone. So
I either upset Allah, because Iwent to FCA and I, you know, and
(10:43):
then I thought maybe, maybe Ithis is Jesus. I mean, he looks
nothing like the pictures, butI'm just thinking, maybe this is
Jesus, because I had made fun ofJesus. I, you know, debated I
would have made I was not kindtowards it, you know, I wasn't
laying those and so anyways, Igot closer, and I just thought
(11:05):
it was going to be the end of meand and I think I want to say
Joshua. I think I I rememberedJesus, or I saw him in my mind.
I don't know exactly whathappened, but the thing reached
my bed and stopped, and then itdisappeared. And then whatever
was holding me let go, and I'mjust stunned in my bed, going,
(11:28):
what just happened? And I lookaround the room, still kind of
strange, but I slowly get up. Ilook around, run out of the
room, wake up my brother andtell him what's going on. And so
as I tell him the story, I'mthinking, he's thinking, you
know, he's gonna say, Oh, youwere just dreaming this. This
stuff is not real. Like, that'swhat I was really expecting to
(11:49):
him, you know, or maybe evenhoping that he would say,
stuff's not real. And he tellsme the opposite. He says, this
stuff is in the Bible. And I'mlike, what? Because I had never
read the Bible. I never held theBible. I I just thought it was
like, you know, just a holy bookthat had a lot of concepts no
(12:09):
one could understand, like oneof the holy books, you know? And
he was like, No, there's storiesof Jesus encountering demons.
And it blew my mind. I'm like,what he was like, Yes, he did
this and that. So he startstalking to me about that, and I
asked him, so what do you what'shappening to me? Like, what do
you think has happened to me?
Like, am I possessed? Like, I'mlike, I'm thinking all kinds of
thoughts, right? And he waslike, no, no. He's like, I think
(12:32):
this is the enemy trying to getyou're just trying to scare you
and this and that and that. Andthen he tells me some other
things, and then he tells memore about Jesus. And you know,
we're going for an hour. Andfinally, I'm like, you know, you
know what? I I need some help,man. I I just feel like there's
something out to kill me. Andthen so my brother says
something to me that I'll neverforget. He says, Well, I know
(12:53):
only one person who hasauthority over demons and
angels. And I was like, Well,who? And he said, Jesus. And I
was like, well, all right, thenwhat do we do? What do we do?
And he was like, All right, weyou need to ask him to come to
your life. You want to ask himto and I was like, All right,
let's do it. And so we, we, wedo right there, you know? And,
(13:13):
and my first prayer to Jesus,because he was gonna, he was
asking me to repeat after him,you know? I mean, now I know
it's like, kind of the sinnersprayer kind of thing, but I
wanted to say something, so Isaid, the first thing I said is,
I said, Jesus, I don't know whoyou are, so I can't say you're
the Lord of my life. I don'tknow you. I can't say I love
you. I can't make any promises,because I don't know you. But if
(13:36):
you, if you save me from this,I'll give you my life. So then
I, you know, said that paradewith my brother, amen. Amen. My
brother's still excited. He wasso happy, you know. And I'm
still scared to death, you know,exactly. And I was like, okay,
so I thought something wouldchange. And he was like, All
(13:57):
right, all right, man, I'll seeyou in the morning. And I was
like, Oh, I'm sleeping with you,like, I'm spooning you, you
know. And he goes, No, no, I'llgo back in the room. I'm like,
Are you out of your mind? Like,did you not hear what I just
said? So he says, here, here,take this. And he gives me a
Bible. And the Bible was smallerthan my iPhone, you know, I'm
(14:19):
saying it was one of those,those Gideons, Bibles, you know,
those New Testament, the greenones, the small, old school
ones. And I was like, this isthe Bible. And he was like, no,
no, this is the new just the NewTestament, or just the Gospels.
And I was like, okay, okay. Andin my head, I'm like, you know,
(14:40):
can you give me somethingbigger, like, you know, I'm
against demons here. And he waslike, No, don't worry about it.
Just go. Just go read, John.
I'll see you in the morning. AndI was like, All right, so I went
back in the room, turn all thelights, and I'm reading. And I
mean, have you gotten to a pointwhere you're so scared and so
spooked that everything. Is,like, making sounds, you know?
(15:02):
I'm saying it's like, it gets soeerie, and I'm like, Oh my gosh,
what is that? What is that?
Who's breathing? I'm like, oh,that's me. Okay, you know? So
then I I'm trying to read,trying to process what happened,
and I just get so frustrated,and I go, what's going on. It
had been three weeks. I had justbeen, you know, I've been to
(15:22):
states for just three weeks. I'dgone through a war. I had now
I'm getting I don't even havereal problems. I have demon
problems. I'm like, What isgoing on? Am I losing my mind?
And then I'm like, getting mad.
I'm like, Why me? Like, why ishappening to me? I don't want to
do any of this. I don't wantthis. I don't want any of this.
So I put the Bible down, and nowI'm full on just mad. Shut off
(15:47):
the lights, got back in my bed,I looked up again and I said,
Jesus, if I die tonight, it isyour fault. I don't know why I
was saying that. Just want youto know my prayer. Life's gotten
better, though, okay, but so Isay that, I put the covers on my
head, hoping nothing happens,and the next thing I know,
something is trying to shake me.
And I'm like, Oh my gosh, thisis round two. And, yeah, man, I
was hoping to not see anything,because I was like, just keep
(16:12):
your eyes closed. You know,that's my that was my thought.
And I found myself sitting on mybed with my eyes open and
staring right at him, like it'sso interesting, because I don't
know I was like, I was lookingat Jesus, but I was inside of
him. It was the surreal, themost strangest thing, and a
voice said, I am Jesus, and yourlife is not your own. And I
(16:36):
remember thinking, I rememberthinking, like I couldn't keep
my eyes off of him, but Icouldn't keep my eyes open. Like
it felt like, like this bodycould not be in that presence,
like I had entered in just forlike, it's like, I know it's
kind of goofy, but like, it'slike, when you enter into a
portal, or something, you know,like, or something like a
(16:59):
different dimension, and I justcouldn't even understand it. But
I'm like, I can stay awake. Icannot, yeah, all I remember is
him saying, I am Jesus, and yourlife is not your own. And the
next morning, I mean, I woke upand I had gotten this download,
I had gotten this. I wassupposed to be in ministry, I
was supposed to do this. I wassupposed to do that. And then,
(17:21):
yeah, that led me to just pursuethat full on. Went to my
brother, told him about that.
And then, yeah, the journey ofunderstanding what the Bible is,
what is Christian community,what is church? I'd never been
to church, no denominations, soas I was learning the US. But
also, you know, starting, youknow, I didn't date for three
(17:43):
years, man, because I felt andGod was saying, you got to know
me, you know, I was prime, likein college. I didn't date for
three years. It's crazy. That'scrazy.
Joshua Johnson (17:54):
What a encounter with Jesus. I think a lot of
people may not have had demonicexperiences, you know, at night,
but we're living in a day andage where so many people are
pressed down with depression,anxiety, with fear, feeling like
a people are pinning you to theto the bed, and they're
(18:15):
wondering if there is any hopefor tomorrow, if I matter, if it
matters that we actually existor we live, where does hope come
for people in the midst ofreally difficult depression and
fear and things that saying Ican't go on? Yeah, where does
hope find its way? That's great
Naeem Fazal (18:37):
question. So for me, what I realized is, is that
when I came to Christ and becomebecame a follower and began to
really dive into the teachingsof Jesus, and then allowing the
Holy Spirit to work my life,understanding who God was, the
generosity of God, the goodnessof God, what I realized most
importantly and fundamentally isthat when people come to a god,
(19:01):
or when they usually comethrough religion. So religion
tells them, this is who God is,this is how he works. This is
this is how it is, and this whatyou're supposed to do to connect
with God. And so fundamentally,with religion is that there's
this idea of like you have to doa set of things, and you have to
figure it out, get it together,to get your life in order and
(19:23):
and then start following and bea good, whatever, Christian,
Hindu, Buddhist, whatever, withthe life of Jesus, what I
realized is that the when youstart a relationship with Him,
the Holy Spirit comes and andmakes you the temple where he
resides in You know, Paul talksabout the your bodies are a
temple of the Holy Spirit. Don'tyou know that? And he goes, so
(19:46):
there is a spirit of God that'sworking in me. Ephesians says
that's able to do immeasurablymore than I can ask or imagine.
He's, he's in me. He's able todo so God is, I'm inviting God
in and it's, he's growing insideof me. You. You know, it's like
the, I know it's the goofyanalogy, but the Alien movies,
you know that it gets in thereand it starts growing out, you
(20:07):
know, just, you can't controlit. I know this is great. I
just,
Joshua Johnson (20:11):
I'm just hoping the Holy Spirit doesn't just,
like, pop out of my belly,right? Explodes, you know
exactly.
Naeem Fazal (20:18):
Big difference there, yeah. But the idea of
like the the Holy Spirit growinginside of us. And what he's
doing is he's not just growinginside of us as we allow Him to
and allow Him and be humbleabout it, and be open and
authentic and vulnerable, but heis growing us up as well and
changing us from the inside outthe and that's how we get the
(20:39):
fruits of the Spirit and allthat. And one of those is
perseverance. One of those isconnected to hope and see, what
I realized is the big differencewith hope is that I used to look
to things for hope. You go, Igotta I gotta hope. I gotta
hope. But then we realize isthere's a hope that's growing
inside of me. There's a hopewithin me, and that's the big
(21:02):
difference. And so when peoplego, man, I just need some hope.
I just need some hope. Whatthey're thinking and hoping for
is to find something that grabstheir attention, that gives them
the security that they can lookto. Instead of going, Hey, Jesus
said I'm giving you a hope, ahope that does not disappoint.
I'm giving you a spirit. I'mgiving you peace, not like the
(21:24):
world gives, not not that youcan muster up, no that lives
inside of you. And so I wouldsay the the biggest thing that
people have need to understandis is that that that sometimes
the must trying to muster upthings within you, just striving
or like I just got to lock in. Ijust gotta do the thing. I just
gotta get a better attitude. Ican't, like, Will myself out of
(21:45):
depression. I can't will myselfout of hopelessness. And what we
have to go is, Hey, God is doinga work in, like, allowing God to
work inside of us. Because, Imean, we were created
beautifully, but sin broke us,and so now we are the broken
becoming beautiful. And then ifyou allow God's spirit to move
inside of us, I write about itin my book tomorrow. Needs you
(22:08):
is that we are actually thebroken creating beauty. We're
called to create beauty, butthat's because there's a work
that God is doing within us. SoI think a lot of people struggle
with hopelessness, but and mydad did too. In fact, he's the
reason why I wrote this book,and he's the reason why the
title is called, tomorrow needsyou. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (22:31):
the story that you start out with your book is
the story of your dad. It brokemy heart that there is a vibrant
man that then later on in hislife, depression hits and he
doesn't want to go on anymore.
It's a really heartbreakingstory, in a sense like that. How
do you let people know thattomorrow needs you? How do you
say especially well, in a placeof, I mean, let's just talk
(22:53):
about somebody who doesn't havethe spirit of hope, living
inside of them, growing andmoving forward. Yeah, what does
that look like to help peoplemove towards that, or maybe even
open their arms to surrender,their hands to surrender and
say, Maybe I need a hope insideof me, and it's not just a
striving or transactional hope.
Naeem Fazal (23:15):
I think that for me, this book that I wrote has
so many amazing stories ofpeople who've come out of trauma
and come out of despair. Andthis really about post traumatic
growth, but it is fundamentallychanging the way you think about
(23:35):
life and seeing a life. Sothere's a amazing passage in
scripture that talks aboutJesus. It says that for the joy
set before Him, He endured thecross. And there's this idea
that Jesus set a picture of abeautiful humanity that was
(23:55):
worth dying for. And I thinkthat when we, you and I, hit a
point of like, I look around andman, things are just going
downhill, even, even now in theculture, it's just there's if
you want to worry about things,there's plenty of things to
worry about. If you want to bedepressed about things, there's
plenty of things to be depressedabout. You want to be anxious.
(24:16):
This is the time to be anxiousbecause, I mean, you've got it
all over. You see it all over.
And so when it comes to fear ofanything, usually we say, hey,
faith. Faith is what you need.
You just need to believe and youjust need to have faith, because
faith is the solution to fear.
You know, faith not fear. Now Irespect that. I understand where
(24:42):
people are coming from, butfaith sometimes fails us. Here's
why, because faith is theopposite of fear. It's not the
solution. Fear is no it's love.
Is actually the solution. I. Imean, so Jesus says it's perfect
love that casts out fear. So ifyou want to fight fear, you
(25:08):
don't fight it with faith. Youfight it with love. That's the
only way to do it. In thescriptures, he's talking about
exactly the perfect love, likeGod's love, this love that says
there's no punishment, that Godloves you. He sent His Son for
you. It's John 316, all overagain. So I think that
fundamentally, people have to goif I'm going to see beauty
around me, if I'm gonna createbeauty around me. That's one of
(25:29):
the things my dad could not see.
He could not see the beautifulthings around him, like he
actually, literally said,Tomorrow does not need me. And I
was like, Dad, don't you see thebeautiful things? Because what
he couldn't see Is he couldn'tsee the loving thing, loving
people around. He couldn't seelove all around. He couldn't see
beauty all around. And beautyand love are so interconnected,
so interconnected. Becausebeautiful something being
(25:52):
beautiful, is something thatyou're attracted to, that you
love, like, like you'reattracted to it. You know, it's
not, it's not it's not just somethings are beautiful and other
things are not. No no. Beauty isanything someone loves. And so
you and I have got to have abeautiful for example, you have
to have a beautiful vision todismantle the anxiety in your
(26:12):
life. You have to put somethingbeautiful before you that's
bigger than you, to conquer thefear inside of you. See,
sometimes what we say is we,like, we have to muster up
faith, or whatever will courageto conquer the fear inside of
us. So I gotta figure outmyself, to figure out the con.
(26:34):
Like, I gotta get this one guyfighting this other guy inside
of me. You know, I'm saying likeit's that's how you do it. But
Jesus always put somethingbefore him. David says, I have
set the Lord before me. He's atmy right hand. I will not be
moved. It's always this idea ofsetting something before Paul
said, Hey, I'm not lookingbehind. I set my eyes on the
(26:56):
author and finisher of thefaith. I'm moving forward. I'm
pressing on, I'm doing this. Andso I think it's something
simple. Do you have a beautifulcommunity? Do you have a
beautiful relationship? Do youhave a beautiful vision? Because
all these things give you thepower to dismantle, to conquer
fear, worry, anxiety in yourlife, you gotta put something
(27:18):
beautiful in front of you todismantle the fear inside of
Joshua Johnson (27:25):
you. I was getting my Masters, and I was
working with war refugees in theMiddle East. I was living in the
desert, and this quote from RayBucha in a theology as big as
the city, really stuck out tome. It says this, in Exodus 31
and 35 we find the first gift ofthe Holy Spirit mentioned in the
entire Bible, an art committee.
Why? Why does a poor, unemployedmigrant group on public aid for
(27:48):
food need the arts? Luther knewthe reason when he expressed
that the poor need beauty asmuch as they need bread, because
they live in ugliness. So Moseslet the arts emerge along with
them, health laws to addressenvironmental concerns. Man,
that's so good for me. Like nowI constantly go back. I was
like, Oh, the first gift of theHoly Spirit was the arts. Was
(28:10):
beauty. Was something that,especially for people wandering
in the desert, they neededbeauty set before them so that
they can continue on. You. Youtalk there about beauty and
relationships, beauty andcommunity, beautiful vision.
What is beauty for you? What arewe what are we working towards?
(28:31):
What are we looking to find?
Naeem Fazal (28:35):
So I'm a painter.
I'm an artist. You know, I usedto say I dabble in the arts, but
that means something else. MaybeI doodle in the arts. Maybe I
should start
Joshua Johnson (28:46):
Yes, well, if you're a Harry Potter, if you
dabble on the dark arts, goingon the dark side, sorry, that's
Naeem Fazal (28:53):
yeah. So even if you see the book cover, you
know, it's, it's very artsy. Igave the the publishers were
great, because they they lookedat my some of my stuff that I
have online, and things likethat. And I've always I thought
before I was called to theministry, before everything
changed in my life. I mean, Icame into the states thinking I
was going to be an art major, sothat was going to be the thing.
(29:13):
And so Beauty for me was justthis idea of, like, I just love
beauty around me. Now, yourquestion is so important,
though, because I think peopleneed to fundamentally understand
that it's the process ofcreating something that's
beautiful. It's It's theprocess. It's not the final
product. The final product issomeone else appreciating your
(29:34):
work. So what is beautiful toyou because you made it, what
beauty did to you while you weremaking it is different from
someone else appreciating. So wego, oh, all I need is just some
I just need things toappreciate. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yes, yes. For sure. For sure. Weneed to visually look at it,
because our senses areheightened by that. We are, we
(29:56):
are human, we we have, we'recomplex. We. So we can feel and
sense and we can be encouragedby just looking at something, or
the opposite, discouraged byjust looking at something. But
there's a different, deeper,like I said, sense of beauty
when you create, see. So that'swhy, I think, when you're Do you
have a beautiful vision? Do youhave a beautiful community that
(30:20):
you're building. Do you haverelationships you're getting
deeper with? Did you havebeautiful relationship with God
that you're moving towards? Areyou creating something so just
simply said, it's the process ofcreating that unlocks something
inside of us, because that'swhen we're like the closest to
God, because he is a creator,and so when we create, we're
(30:44):
acting like him. And it could becreating a spreadsheet. I mean,
it literally could be anything,but we we get excited. We're
like, look at what I did. That'swhy kids will draw ridiculous
paintings and go and we're like,that's great. That's wonderful.
But what it did to them creatingit is different than what you
(31:07):
thought about it. I'm saying,look around and let's create
something in the midst of beautythat's so
Joshua Johnson (31:14):
good. I mean, it just reminds me of the movie
Life is beautiful, of him tryingto create in in the in the
Holocaust, at a death camp, he'strying to create beauty for his
his son. He's saying that lifeis beautiful, even despite our
circumstances. But the processof creation, what you're saying,
(31:35):
I think it's so key, because nowwe're getting back to who we
are, like, we're co creators.
We're made in the image of God.
So this is, this is our, ourcore nature as people who create
like and so when we have fear,depression, anxiety, all of
those things where we only seethe ugliness of the world, soon
(31:59):
as we people get caught up inthe I can't don't have any
energy to create. I can't get upduring the day, can't do
anything. So when we're inthought like that, where I have
no desire to create, but I knowthat Beauty will save me, and
creation will save me. How do Ijust try and get up when I have
(32:26):
no energy or no impetus to wantto do it? I
Naeem Fazal (32:31):
believe that I, you know, COVID. COVID is a great
example of me being that personyou just described. I don't have
the energy to do this anotherday, you know? And we all, we
all went through all kinds ofthings in during COVID, but all
of us definitely were coping inall kinds of ways, right, trying
(32:52):
to figure it out. And I wouldsay, coping, you know, people
say, you know, well, you're justcoping. Well, coping tells you
that you're still alive. It'syour body telling you, hey, you
got to do something. Because I'mdying, I got to do something. So
I don't blame people for coping.
Now the problem is, is thatsometimes it can get super
unhealthy, but it's coping is agood sign that says, hey, you
(33:14):
got to do something. So when itcomes to
Joshua Johnson (33:18):
how many yellow tortilla chips did you have?
Naeem Fazal (33:21):
Yeah, I had a lot.
I had a lot, you know what I'mtalking about. You know, it was
not till, until, like, you know,until my son was like, Hey,
you're, you're, you haveanxiety. And I was like,
whatever. Man shut the door. Theissue was, is that the reason
why I did not want to get uptoday and do the things I need
to do is because I rememberedyesterday. I remember that I did
(33:43):
it yesterday. I had lost it.
Like, you know, we grew thisorganization, we grew this
church, we grew this things, wehad these relationships. I did
all that work, I lost it. So thereason why people don't want to
go into today, they don't wantto engage today is not because
(34:03):
I'm just in a bad mood. It'sbecause my body remembers
yesterday. My mind focuses onyesterday and goes because if
yesterday was killer, I wouldget up. If yesterday was great,
I would get up. Because I'mlike, oh, it's gonna be another
great day, it's gonna be anothergreat day. So I would say,
(34:24):
first, hey, if you're thatperson, remember, remember
yesterday, you're going back toyesterday. Hey, yesterday has
forgotten you. It's like arelationship that you used to
have, and they've moved on, andyou haven't. You can't go back
to it because, because it's,it's the because hope doesn't
live there. Like hope lives inthe future. It doesn't live in
(34:44):
the past. The past, actually, ifyou try to go back to it,
because we want to go back toit, and I've wanted to go back
to it sometimes, becausesometimes it was good. You know,
there were times were good, theglory days, or something,
whatever, things were great.
When I go back to it, the pastis too small for you to. Live
in. It's too small for you livein. And by the way, it's too
small for God to fit in wideopen spaces the future. The the
(35:06):
next thing God says, Hey,behold, I'm doing a new thing,
like, forget the past. I'm doinga new thing. Do you not see it?
Do you not see it? It's, it'swhen the people of God we're in
exile to Babylon. What do youthink happened? Get up every day
going, we're exiled. We losteverything. I want to go back. I
want to go back back home. We'rein Babylon. I want to go back to
(35:30):
Jews. I want to go back and Godin the middle of that says, hey,
there are prophets that tellingyou that just hold on, and it's
going to turn around. Just holdon. Keep thinking about keep the
memory alive. And then Jeremiahcomes in and goes, hey, those
prophets are lying to you thatGod did not send them. What's
the message then? Well, youdon't want to hear it, but
(35:53):
here's the message. The messageis, plant gardens. Start
relationships again. Build homesstart again. And they're like,
why would why? Why do I don'twant to stay here? Why do I
plant a garden? You know howlong it takes? Like, why do we
want to do he said, Do this?
(36:13):
Pray for the peace of where youare right now. Like, build
homes. Don't dwindle. And it's agreat picture of like, what
happens when we want to go backin the past, when we go on the
past, our present starts todwindle, or we just get drained,
and maybe our past, or maybe ourfuture just is never created. So
(36:34):
God says, Hey, listen, I've gotgreat plans for you. You know,
with Jeremiah 2911 right? Planfor hope in the future, but you
got to do this. What
Joshua Johnson (36:42):
has been helpful for you is there practice every
day or something where you sayand maybe I'm just coping at the
moment. I don't really want toto move forward, to have a hope
in future. I don't want to planta garden today. Is there
something that that helps moveyou towards actually paying
attention to today and creatingsomething beautiful. I walk a
Naeem Fazal (37:06):
lot at night, or at night I'm on my porch, there's,
there's this, this practice of aI'm just a night owl sometimes,
and nighttime just allows me tojust get rid of all the noise.
So what I would say is thepractice and pace of your life
(37:26):
is really connected to yourpiece, you know, like, so I
gotta have a practice. So therewere times where it started
with, Hey, I would just journalat night, and then it went from
just, I'm just gonna walk atnight, then I'm gonna walk and
listen to worship music atnight, then I'm gonna walk and I
listen to a book. Oh, I walk andtalk to my mom, you know, I'm
make some calls. I'm just gonnawalk at nights. And for me, I
(37:49):
realized that God was likesaying, Hey, you don't have to
always come with, you know,ready to go like, you don't have
to always come and, you know,have something to write or
journal and pray about and listand all that, because there were
times I was like, I just don'twant to pray, I just don't want,
I just don't want to put thatenergy into because I'm going to
(38:10):
feel bad. I'm going to feellike, you know, I'm not that
excited, you know. You know I'mnot. I don't want to say I'm not
in the mood for God, but I'm notin the mood for God, you know.
And what I realized is my soul.
I just really felt, felt this mysoul, and I felt God's Spirit.
Just said, hey, just come andstand close. You don't have to
do anything. Just be close.
Because I always felt like Ineed to do something. So then I
(38:32):
started this practice of like,hey, you know, almost every
night I'm on my porch, andsometimes it's not godly. I
mean, it's like, it's not likeI'm praying and all that I'm
listening to work. No, I'm not.
I'm just I'm creating that pace.
So I would say number one,create a spiritual space and
redefine what spiritual means toyou. Spiritual place means I'm
(38:53):
gonna come separate fromeverybody else that's important,
alone, not totally distracted bytechnology. You can have
technology, but just say, God,this is our time. And sometimes
we just might just listen to abook together, and sometimes I'm
like, opening up my heart, andsometimes I'm crying, and
(39:14):
sometimes I'm listening toworship music for an hour. And
man, Joshua, I mean, I've walkedfor like, maybe two hours,
sometimes maybe two and a halfhour. And I'm just and then I
love doing this, you know, Ilove doing this. I look up at
the night sky. I will stop in myneighborhood, and I will just
look up in the night sky. Andyou know how David said, you
know, when I, when I considerthe heavens, the moon, the
(39:36):
stars, you ordained. What is manthat you're mindful for him,
mindful of him? You know, whatis man that You care for him.
And I have those moments of likeman when I look up. So I would
say, start that kind ofpractice, a spiritual practice
that allows you to just calm thenoise, look up. I think
everybody can do it. I honestlythink so. I mean, whatever, if
(39:59):
you're. Morning person you coulddo in the morning. If you're a
night person,
Joshua Johnson (40:02):
you do at night.
You're an artist, so you like tocreate and to make beautiful
things. When you're standing infront of a blank canvas and
you're like, I don't have anyinspiration. I don't know where
it's coming from. It's notcoming from me right now. I
don't know what to do, becauseI'm sure that's happened, yeah.
Yeah. Where does inspirationcome for you? How do we how do
you get started when you have ablank cap Canvas in front of
(40:27):
you? How do you know what tostart to create?
Naeem Fazal (40:32):
Oh, man, that's such a great question, because
that that moment staring onagain at the canvas, is the
worst moment. So even in ourconversation, of people going,
okay, man, what do I do with mylife? Like, what's the next
thing that's the most terrifyingthing? Like, I'd rather not even
deal with where my life isgoing, because I don't want to
create something because all ofa sudden I'm blank. I don't know
(40:55):
where to go, I just don't knowwhat to do. I had this moment a
couple of days ago, a couple ofdays ago, so I'm trying to do
this a party, like a bookrelease party, and my wife had a
great idea of doing an art showwith it as well and donating the
artwork to a nonprofit inPakistan that sponsors kids in
(41:16):
Pakistan. And I thought, that'sgreat. And she's like, Okay,
well, you have to make thesepaintings. And I was like, Okay,
I'll do it. And so I went, and Iwas like, I'm gonna do wood
Canvas. So I went, went toLowe's got them cut, stained
them and all that. And they justbeen sitting around. And she was
like, hey, so when are you gonnado that? Hey, so when are you
gonna do that? And then what Idid was, you see a picture of my
(41:39):
house, we have a breakfast nookarea. There's no breakfast nook
table. That table has like,stuff on it now, and it's an art
all my supplies are on there.
And so I'd walk by it, it's inthe middle of the house. So
that's one thing I've done, is Iput it in the middle of house,
then it's like, okay, name,okay. And so the other night, I
was like, What? What do I do?
(42:00):
What do I do? So, on Canvas,when you start, you just gotta
go. So the other day I started,and I'm like, where am I going?
And you I can't tell you there'ssome canvases going back to my
dad, for example. I sat downbecause I was watching a show,
this dream COVID, watching ashow, and I was like, I was
(42:20):
like, name, can't just stopwatching the show, just to stop
watching TV and put the tipsdown. And I just got up. I
walked by the table. I just satthere. I just sat down, and I
just started going, and kid younot, Joshua, like I it was a
blank canvas. And I was, Ithink, 15 minutes, or maybe even
(42:44):
10 minutes. It was maybe 40,maybe even less than 30 strokes.
I don't know. I'll show you theI can send you a picture like
maybe even 15 strokes. And Ilooked, and once I was done, I
looked, and I go, Oh my gosh, Ijust painted dad in the midst of
his depression. I painted himthe picture of him, I'm like,
(43:06):
the what he felt. And I waslike, Oh, I like, it shocked me,
and I said to my siblings, andthey were like, Oh my gosh, this
dad. I didn't even plan it. Soall that to say, sometimes you
just, you have to sit there andyou give yourself grace to say
I'm gonna I might createsomething that's stupid or dumb,
or something that no one findspretty, but I will tell you on
(43:29):
good days, I realize that thereis this sense of this might get
weird, but when I say this, butI get into a kind of a trance. I
get into this. I'm just doingthis thing. I'm just doing this
thing. I'm just doing like, Idon't like talking to anybody. I
don't like just I can't, don'tdistract me. Sometimes I'll have
(43:50):
music, I'll just get into it.
And you know what I realized theword genius. You know the word
genius comes from the wordGenie. And so in the Western
world, when we know the wordgenius, we call each other
genius like, oh, you're agenius. But when the word
originated, the idea was thatthere was something beyond you
(44:14):
that came in, did somethingthrough you and left. That was
genius. So it was like a genie.
So I just believe, like, like, Ibelieve the Spirit of God comes
over me, in a sense, doessomething profound and leaves.
(44:36):
It's like, you know, it's notlike, it's not like, I don't
have the Holy Spirit. You know,Paul said, I do, I do. But there
are moments we have anoverflowing of it. And so when
I'm when I when I do something,I'm like, That was genius. When
I look at that term, I don'tthink genius is a person. I
think it's an act. And so nowon. The days I'm like, Man, I
(45:01):
just want to go ahead and justtry something, just because I
just know that I'm going tointeract with the Holy Spirit
and the Spirit of God in a waythat I'll never get to if I
didn't do anything.
Joshua Johnson (45:12):
I have a couple quick questions, yes at the end.
One, if you could go back toyour 21 year old self, what
advice would you give
Naeem Fazal (45:19):
21 year old self, oh, man, I would say, hey, stop
trying to fit in. Stop trying tofit in. I spent a whole lot, a
whole decade or more, trying tofit in. Maybe it's because I was
an immigrant. Always been one,then came here, felt like an
immigrant, but I spent a lot oftime trying to fit in, just
(45:41):
like, you know, hey, you knowyou gotta. It's like code
switching, if you've heard thatterm, yeah, for me, I think I
went not into extremes, but Ijust, yeah, I spent a lot of
time wondering what other peoplethought.
Joshua Johnson (45:55):
I mean, I can't imagine, like, going through
your 20s. I think that's, that'sreally what, what life is in
your 20s, trying to fit in, andbeing an immigrant and saying,
you know you're you're not fromhere, you're feeling a little
out of place, like all of thatexacerbates that. Man, it would
be so great if you know we couldfigure out who we are underneath
(46:16):
all the masks that we wear.
Yeah, so good. Anything you'vebeen reading or watching lately
recommend. You
Naeem Fazal (46:22):
know, I've been listening to a podcast, and it's
not a religious podcast, so I'mnot I don't know if I can
endorse it or not, but honestly,it's really got me thinking in
very different way. It'sactually Trevor Noah's podcast
called what now I listen to alot just because I want to have
a very different perspective.
And do feel like, at the end ofthe day, the podcast really
wants to help the world, and soI think that's, that's a really,
(46:47):
this is really good one. Youknow, I would recommend, light
of our conversation, a bookcalled culture care by Makoto
fujimoru, but that's a greatbook. And again, talking about
why we need beauty, beauty. Imean, this just great book.
There's I love listening to andI listen to books just because
(47:08):
I, you know, I've dyslexia anddysgraphia, so it's hard for me
to read. Listening to bookshelps me so lust for life by
Ivan stone was a great book. Itwas a book on on Van Gogh. Just
a great, great book. Another oneI would recommend, man, in light
of our conversation today, iscalled the war for art. I
(47:32):
believe it's called the war forart, and that is a must read.
Not a Christian book, though,and just FYI, because he has a
mouth on him at times. But, man,he makes such a great case to
come against a resistance in anyform, in terms of mentally and,
you know, and fighting that andyou gotta, you gotta go battle.
(47:58):
You gotta battle to create arttomorrow
Joshua Johnson (48:01):
needs you. It's a fantastic book, and I think
everybody should go and get itand so that they could start to
create some beauty around them,that they could have the hope of
God within them, that there is abeautiful life and future here
for you now. Name, thank you forthis conversation. It was
fantastic to walk through yourstory of Jesus encountering you,
(48:26):
and then living a life of beautyand creation and so that we
could actually be co creatorswith God, that we could actually
be the people that God hascreated us to be. And man, it
was a beautiful conversation. Ireally enjoyed talking to you so
thank you so much, Likewise,
Naeem Fazal (48:43):
likewise, thank you so much. You.
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