What happens when the institutions we’ve trusted start to crumble and we realize they were never meant to carry the weight we gave them? Today, I’m joined by Angie Ward. She invites us into a deep reimagining of the Church, not just as a building or an organization, but as a Spirit-formed people living on mission together. Angie has spent decades in both church and parachurch worlds, and she brings hard-won wisdom and clarity to a question many of us are asking right now: what is the Church supposed to be? We talk about the historical split between church and parachurch, what it would look like to move from siloed excellence to shared mission, and why this cultural moment might be the perfect time to rethink everything - not out of panic, but out of trust. We discuss institutional collapse, missional ecosystems, scarcity vs. abundance, and how to step into new paradigms when the old ones stop working. If you’re sensing the shaking in the foundations and wondering what’s next for the people of God, join us as we imagine an ecosystem of missional extensions.
Angie Ward (PhD, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) is director of the Doctor of Ministry program and associate professor of leadership and ministry at Denver Seminary. She is the author of Uncharted Leadership: 20 Case Studies to Help Ministry Leaders Adapt to Uncertainty and I Am a Leader: When Women Discover the Joy of Their Calling. Angie has over thirty-five years of leadership experience in church, nonprofit, and higher education ministry. A sportswriter in a previous life, Angie loves running, basketball, humor, and movies. She and her pastor-husband live in Denver. They have two grown sons and one very spoiled beagle.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angie Ward (00:00):
But it just doesn't all depend on me. And I think,
(00:03):
you know, a lot of things, theevangelical culture, subculture
I grew up in, too, is like we'vegot to be evangelical victorious
and conquer for Jesus. It's allup to us to do all the work, and
so just increasing dependence onthe Lord.
Joshua Johnson (00:22):
You Joshua, hello and welcome to the
shifting culture podcast inwhich we have conversations
about the culture we create andthe impact we can make. We long
to see the body of Christ looklike Jesus. I'm your host.
Joshua Johnson, what happenswhen institutions we've trusted
start to crumble and we realizethey were never meant to carry
(00:46):
the weight we gave them. Today,I'm joined by Angie ward. She
invites us into a deepreimagining of the church, not
just as a building or anorganization, but as a spirit
formed people living on missiontogether, Angie has spent
decades in both church andparachurch worlds, and she
brings hard, won wisdom andclarity to a question many of us
(01:07):
are asking right now, what isthe church supposed to be? We
talk about the historical splitbetween church and parachurch,
what it would look like to movefrom siloed excellence to shared
mission, and why this culturalmoment might be the perfect time
to rethink everything, not outof panic, but out of trust. We
discussed institutionalcollapse, missional ecosystems,
(01:30):
scarcity versus abundance, andhow to step into new paradigms
when the old ones stop working.
If you're sensing the shakingand the foundations and
wondering what's next for thepeople of God Join us as we
imagine an ecosystem ofmissional extensions. Here is my
conversation with Angie ward.
Angie, welcome to shiftingculture. Excited to have you on
(01:52):
thank you for joining me.
Angie Ward (01:54):
Thank you so much for having me. Fun to chat
beforehand. Well, it's
Joshua Johnson (01:58):
going to be great talking about beyond
church and parachurch. I haveworked in the church, I've
worked in parachurchorganizations, so I've been in
both worlds. I've seen the crazyconfusion, misunderstanding of
who we are and what we're tryingto do and how we're trying to
advance the Kingdom of Godtogether, and amen, we're not
very good at working together.
So I'm excited to dive into whatit looks like to actually
(02:21):
advance the kingdom. But beforethat, you start your book out
with the state of the church,like, where are we? So I'd love
to hear where are we. You go, goway back and you talk about
turning points in churchhistory. So I'd love to hear
some of that to see where weare. And why do you think this
is like an inflection point forus,
Angie Ward (02:42):
yeah, today, yeah.
So where we are. I guess there'skind of two perspectives. One is
kind of the the data drivenstuff, which just all the
research is showing. Now therehas been a slowdown and maybe a
plateau, but like the rise ofthe nones, the unchurched,
especially in Western cultures,right? So Europe, United States,
well, meanwhile, the center ofglobal Christianity is shifting
to the south and to the east,and so we've, you know, churches
(03:04):
are closing left and right.
Seminaries are, you know, dyingclose. All these kind of
institutional structures thathave been part of our society
for really centuries. We're justseeing this massive shift, kind
of like Phyllis tickle talksabout, or quotes, at least
references, kind of this idea ofthis rummage sale in the great
emergence. And so it seems likewe are in this, maybe not since,
(03:26):
seen since the Reformation, butlike this very large global
shift in Christianity and thechurch and religiosity. So
there's that. But then there'salso, you know, kind of those of
us on the ground in ministry,vocational, you know, vocational
ministry or part time, whateverKingdom work as part of that
shift we're seeing like adecline in trust in
(03:47):
institutions, and we've seenleadership failures and all that
kind of and a lack of truediscipleship. You know, like
what we've been doing has beengetting what we're getting. We
just have this landscapelittered with all these our new
President of Denver seminaryused this phrase the other day,
he said, he said, Oh yeah, at mylast institution, we had all he
said, we had cylinders ofexcellence, and we all just kind
(04:10):
of looked and he said, akasilos. And so we have all these
cylinders of excellence, manydoing excellent work, but often
very siloed from one another, ifnot outright, depending on your
perspective, even Anna monsteris saying, well, they're not
really the church and just this.
You know, it's been easy to likeblame cultural factors on the
decline of the Church and itsinfluence, and not just local
(04:33):
congregation, but justChristianity. But I think part
of it, a large part of it, isthat we are unclear on who we
are supposed to be as a church,like our identity as believers,
what we're supposed to be anddo. So seven or eight years ago,
now, maybe a little bit more, Iwas teaching ministry the way
that I've been taught it,leadership, the way I've been
taught it and experienced it.
(04:54):
And I grew up in kind of theBill Hybels, you know, era and
mega churches exploding.
Everything rises and falls. Onleadership. John Maxwell, and
like, I'm teaching that stuff,and I have a PhD in leadership,
so like, this is what I bankedeverything, you know, like I'm
an expert on and then I stop andgo, like I stopped cold. The
students don't recognize, Idon't think, and I'm and I'm
thinking, like I'm teaching to aparticular model and
(05:16):
understanding here of ministryand the church and and
leadership, and I don'tunderstand, I don't know how we
got here, or if I even buy thismodel, like I suddenly
critically reflected in a way Ihad never had to do. I mean, I
just, you just, kind of, it wasthe water we swim in. And I
thought, and I have thesedegrees from these reputable
schools, you know, in inseminaries, you know, in in
(05:40):
ministry and ministryleadership. And I got a PhD in
leadership, ministry leadership.
But I know more about leadershipthan I do about the church, the
beautiful bride of Christ. And Ithink that's if I'm teaching
this stuff that's a problem. IfI don't know that, and I don't
think I'm the only one that'sthat problem. And, you know, and
then, as I started digging thebook, is kind of the outworking
(06:03):
of years of kind of searching onmy own and going, what is the
church supposed to be and do?
How does church and what we callparachurch, or nonprofit
Christian organizations, howdoes it all fit together? When
did we first even talk in theseterms? And then from there, like
went back to the early churchand went, Oh, there's actually a
history here from, I talk aboutan overview from Paul to Promise
Keepers, you know, and like, oh,there's a lot more history here
(06:26):
that I need to be aware of. Andas I put all these pieces
together, you
Joshua Johnson (06:32):
said before that we're kind of confused of what
the church is and the purpose ofchurch, and so bring us into
that place. What is church, andwhy are we here? Like, that's
the
Angie Ward (06:44):
book right in front of me, so I could be reading to
you what I actually wrote inthere. One of the things I
pointed in the book with themany ways we use the term
church, you know, it can mean abuilding. It can mean a place
where you kind of take partakeof religious services, like
we're, you know, it really doesservice events, but also
services, you receive thingsfrom it, you know, kind of a
(07:05):
transactional kind of thing, youknow, I go to such and such
church, you know. So partly wejust have all these
misunderstandings, or we talk.
It's, I think it's been, becomefashionable now to say, because
I think there have been failuressometimes with local leadership
or particular congregations.
Well, I'm part of the church,but it's this global thing. And
I'm not really a part of a localcongregation, but I think church
(07:28):
in the Bible is actuallyEcclesia. It's this gathered
people for you know that it's amissional community, but
there's, it's a formationalpiece too, and we're shaped by
the gathering of it, but we arealso called to each of us is
called to be on mission. It'snot just churches are called to
be mission. And by missions, Idon't just mean the term. The
(07:49):
way I grew up understandingmission was global evangelism to
the like, to the unreached. Weare also all to be part of God's
redemptive mission, drawingpeople in the world to himself,
and, you know, making all thingsnew. And so, so the the church
is a community of believers whoare together on mission, you
know, this missio day kind ofthing. And so there's this
(08:11):
gatheredness, but also asentence to it. And so I think
last time we we get one or notthe other, this or not that. You
know, there's a, there's aglobal, universal piece to it,
where we're part of, like, allbelievers, all time and place,
you know, all over the world,and also called to be part of a
local community, you know. Andso it's this, lots of this,
(08:32):
both. And
Joshua Johnson (08:33):
so then what is para church? And how did that
come about? Yeah, and how doesthat connect in with church?
Angie Ward (08:40):
Well, so what I discovered, like, I grew up in
what I heard that term parachurch, and I kind of vaguely
knew parachurch. Think of likeall these kind of used to be,
you just had your local parishor your congregation, and then
you had, like non profits ordenominations would have a
publishing branch, or whateveryou have these kind of more
(09:03):
mission or purpose specificorganizations for ministry. So
parachurch could includeanything from InterVarsity,
crew, navs, you know, that typeof to publishers, IVP, to
seminaries like Denver seminaryto global evangelistic mission
agencies to CompassionInternational. I mean, the the
list I do in the book, there'sjust dozens and dozens of even
(09:26):
categories Christian radio, likethe majority of those sprang up
for a unique need, a unique timeand place. And so, like, couple
100 years ago, it was a lot ofBible track societies to help
get or literacy. You know,didn't get the printed by
Wycliffe. You know, some ofthose are still around for for
many years, but they came upwith a, you know, the local
church, or church was kind ofthe local congregation, and
(09:49):
you're more bound by locale,because you couldn't regionally
go or watch something online.
But then you would also give tothese social concern,
evangelistic, these kind ofmissional or. Organizations,
which at some point became knownas para church, so either
alongside the church or next to,but not really in partnership
(10:09):
with, and that was part of theconfusion. Like, is, what is
para church? Relationship?
Church? And some people wouldsay para church is the church,
and other people say, Well, no,they're both part of the, you
know, it's just, but there's alike various schools of thought,
of, well, you know, some parachurch would say, or, like,
Christian nonprofit, I think isa more familiar term to many of
(10:31):
us. It's like, well, parachurch, these organizations,
wouldn't have had to rise up ifthe church hadn't had done this
job, you know. Or there's otherssaying, No, you look at like,
you know, many like, megachurches or networks now,
they're really a federation of acongregation with parachurch
ministries. So there's, there'sthis gathered and sentness kind
of thing again, and so, so a lotof times parachurch is helping
(10:54):
facilitate the sent portion fora particular mission and time
and people.
Joshua Johnson (10:59):
Is this a new phenomenon, or has this happened
before? Well,
Angie Ward (11:03):
I thought it was a new phenomenon. I mean, I knew
that there was like in the 1940s50s, like the Christian college.
I went to the Christian camp, Iworked for campus life, that I
was involved. There was aexplosion of these kind of in
the 40s, early 1950s and so Iknew about all that. But when I
started going back to that'swhen kind of the term parachurch
(11:23):
was used. But then you startgoing back to, like the Second
Great Awakening here, and yourealize that there were actually
these, these voluntarysocieties, which were the
forerunner to what we would callparachurch. We had those a while
ago. And you go back evenfurther, and you go back, like
1000 or years of monasticism.
And I thought monastics, for allthe people who went lived in the
desert or were cloisteredcompletely and and what I
(11:44):
discovered was that, you know,there was the early church, and
they just kind of went out andstarted sharing the apostles.
You know, the Acts of theApostles, reread all that, and
then over time, these structureskind of emerge. But then that
were like for the local church,and as a church became a little
more centralized through whatthe Church, which is now, at the
time, was just the church. Nowwe have the Roman Catholic
(12:07):
Church. And so is it new? Not atall. Throughout the history of
Christianity, people have beenfinding, have been going out the
least, the loss, the needs,bringing the full gospel, you
know, to the whole world throughthese variety of kind of
structures and ways of makingwork. So like Manas, the
(12:27):
monasteries were healing thesick. First hospitals were
coming out of that, you know,they were teaching kids. The
first preschool is literacy, allthat stuff, the things that we
do today as these separateorganizations that was part of
monasticism. So, I mean, we havejust a long history of that, and
a long history of church, and,quote, parachurch, not knowing
how exactly to relate to oneanother and who gets the who has
(12:51):
the control of whom.
Joshua Johnson (12:54):
All right, so this has been happening forever
that we don't know how to relateto each other and we don't know
who is in control? Yeah. As youwere looking through some
research, has there been anyeras in history where church and
para church get along and theywork well together, in a way
that it's a symbioticrelationship, like we're in this
(13:17):
together. This is Kingdom work,and let's do it together. Yeah,
have you seen that? I would
Angie Ward (13:23):
say there's instances, but I wouldn't say
it's an era of widespread Imean, it's you find pockets all
the time, and also you have kindof, depending on what people's
theological bent is, is evenlike, what the purpose of search
is, you know. So, you know, evenin monasticism, it was like,
there was some tension between,like, the clearly, clergy and
the monks, because who was doingthe work of the ministry, and
(13:45):
then who was sanctioned by thePope, you know, and so then. But
then there are, from times likearound Second Great Awakening,
also in the late 1800s therewere these agreements between
various denominations.
Denominations started havingtheir own like publishing houses
and stuff. But, you know, inProtestant history, our nature
is to break off and set aprotest. We're great at right? I
(14:06):
mean, right, right there in thename. How ironic, right, you
know, and so and so, you know,you certainly see people who
want to so I'd say there's somewho are, you know, they have a
more antagonistic view, onetoward the other. But many are
just like, I don't know how todo this. I'm so busy with what's
going on in front of me. Theneeds are so great. The needs
(14:27):
are so great that I don't havetime to collaborate in one
sense, or I don't know where tostart. So I don't know that in,
you know that, I would say inchurches or one big era where
everybody worked together, Ithink that's not going to happen
until the other side of the youknow, of heaven.
Joshua Johnson (14:43):
One of the things you said at the beginning
is that the state of where weare, we've lost trust in
institutions, and so it feelslike there's people willing to
to cross pollinate in ways wehaven't seen before. They're
willing to collaborate in. Inways where it's not really just
about institutional loyaltyanymore. It's more, I mean, in
(15:07):
pockets, there's loyalty for thekingdom of God, for Jesus, and
hey, we're going to do thistogether. Have you seen any
shift in people starting to worktogether because of this new
distrust in institution. And isthere a history of institutional
(15:28):
distrust? Has that happenedbefore, or are we in just new
territory?
Angie Ward (15:32):
Yeah, I think are people more willing? Yes. I
think COVID. I think we wouldall say COVID, the pandemic,
accelerated things that we werestarting to see happen and kind
of expose and so I think a lotof people, you know, if you
picture people in their kind of,their their building, from their
headquarters, theircongregation, or whatever, like,
the wall started crumblingaround them and and, you know,
(15:54):
some were like, we've got to putthis back up, you know. But then
as they're coming down, you lookout and you go, hey, you've been
right next to me this wholetime, but I've been so busy with
what's going on within my walls.
Sometimes it's just that I'vejust been, you know, busy, or
we've got our focus here in thisbuilding, or this, you know,
cylinder of excellence, youknow, as it were, and other
times it's like, you know, somepeople would say, well, our job
(16:16):
was to keep the wall up, youknow, but, but those that's a
mindset that will go withwherever those people go, you
know. But yeah, I think peopleare going, like, the discussion
all the things we were doingbefore the like, I said, like,
the reliability of institutions,of leaders, were having to find
whole different the decline ofof kind of Christendom, and this
(16:36):
assumed Christianity in Westernculture that had held for so
many centuries. All of that isgone, and so suddenly we're now
on the margins, or just don'thave a position of power, and we
have to just start lookorganically again. I see
missions, agencies, you know,like minded, coming together and
saying, okay, you've got thispart of the world in this part,
(16:59):
or we're doing this this way andthis way. But instead of saying
we're doing it this way, becausethis is the only way, we're
saying no, now we need you to dothat. I see networks of campus
ministries, college universityministries, going, Okay, we've
got IV crew and MAVs all on onecampus, but this one other
campus here has nothing. Youknow, how do we go together to
(17:20):
those, you know, unreachedplaces here, you know, in the
United States or or WesternEurope. So I think it feels a
little chilly because it'sexposing. It's a little breezy
when the walls come down, butit's making us go like, Oh, I
can't just rebuild the brickhere. And institutions may not
be the salvation we thought theywere. Then, what do you think is
(17:41):
perfect leading question? Yeah,well, I you know one of the
things, you know, when Jesussays, like, Go into all the
world, and you look at the earlychurch, they were just kind of
mission bands of people goingaround. It was very movemental
the early church. And I thinkthe church is supposed to the
mission of God was very movementof the Holy Spirit. And move
movement. And over time, webuilt institutions,
(18:02):
organizations, institutions,because there is value in
organizing to get stuff donelike but when, when institutions
become institutionalism, andmost of your time is spent
trying to, you know, your job isto keep the institution going
and strong. You know, I think wewe've grown up in for centuries.
So you and I are just immersedin this, in an institutional
(18:24):
framework of how things shouldget done, how things do get
done. And as those walls comedown, my suggestion, and this is
the title of the book, is reallymoving to a completely new
paradigm, not just of people inthe institutions doing things
differently, and which is whatwe were seeing for a while, like
even seeker sensitive movement,different churches. And you
(18:46):
know, it's like, let's changeour methodology. But I think we
have to really come down all theway to again, what is the church
supposed to be and do? And thenwhat are the structures? How
much do we even need structure?
But maybe it's not thisinstitutional. So I envision
this, what I call missionalextensions. It doesn't flow as
easily off the tongue as prayer.
Church has become, you know,church and parachurch, but this
(19:07):
ecosystem, globally of missionalextensions, where you and I as
individual believers, I'm amissional extension to my
neighborhood and by DenverUniversity. Here through the
work I do at Denver seminary.
I'm then part of a localcongregation called Platt Park
church. And we're, you know, acommunity that is on, you know,
of these missional extensions,we ourselves are a mission
(19:30):
extension. Our ends of the earthwill be somebody else's local,
you know, local ministry andjust viewing ourselves instead
of cylinders of excellence.
What? What would it be like togo like, if whatever you're
doing Joshua doesn't work, Ifeel the loss like, like we, we
just in a true system. Everychange changes everything, and
(19:51):
we've been so insulated orsometimes isolated, even though
we talk about unity, wherethere's really not a meaningful.
Like impact to each other andthroughout. So you know, back to
your one of your firstquestions, like this, this
unique missional moment andcultural moment, where, where we
are in this rum sale, this kindof yard sale, this upheaval, all
(20:11):
the kind of assumptions, kind ofcrumbling about institutions,
leaders, all that kind of stufflike this is primary
opportunity, and we can't nottake advantage of it, not for
like, Oh, we're going to win,but like, in a posture of
humility, saying why we needeach other. We're past this.
Like, building, you know,building big things to make
(20:35):
Jesus name great in, like, bigdeclarative institutions and
towers, but like mustard, seedystuff.
Joshua Johnson (20:44):
All right, I'm going to take you into our
church for a moment, because Ithink this is helpful. I a year
before COVID, God told us to getrid of our building and to roam
the city. And so now, afterafter six, we've been been at
this six years. And so now we'rein we're in home churches three
times a month. We gather once amonth all together, where, from
(21:09):
the beginning, we've been tryingto build a kingdom ecosystem, is
what we've called it, yeah. Andso we're trying to, like, think,
new paradigm of what ecosystemis, and it's, I mean, it's a
hard slog. It's not easy. Imean, you're, we're gonna lose
people. People are like they'reinstitutionalized. They love the
(21:32):
institution. They want. Theywant it. They feel safe and
secure in it. Ecosystemssometimes don't feel that. They
feel unmoored. And I don't knowwhere I'm going and what we're
doing, it would be so easy tojust slip back into
institutional life, because itis easier. How do we start to
(21:57):
move towards new paradigms, newthinking, new ways and keep it
up when the stuff hits the fanwell,
Angie Ward (22:05):
and you talk about institutional life, and I think
there's a distinction. I thinkwe've seen a lot of folks go
away from institutional life,but that doesn't mean we should
go away from corporate life. Andso like, and so the you know,
the trick is to okay, how do wedo this together in new ways
when it's way more comfortable,you know, we seek equilibrium,
you know. I so some of the waysto move toward the other stuff,
(22:29):
like, one, it's like you could,kind of, you could burn your
ships and say, We just can't doit that way. I mean, like, you
could just, you know, you saidwe sold the building. So, you
know, there might be atemptation to go back, but like,
where are you going to go, youknow? And so you could do some
draft, you know, some peoplemight say drastic things like
that, you know. Roland Smith,our mutual friend, talks about,
(22:50):
you're always discipling yourpeople toward something, you
know, and just even bringing anawareness of what assumptions
are we bringing in and ortraining and embedding and
perpetuating by what we're doinghere and evaluating stuff of the
assumptions level. And here injoffle, Christianity is not
(23:10):
known for doing that very well,because we're, we're people of
action. You're activists, youknow. And Christian, the
Christian church in general, is,you know, we are missional. And
so it's like, there, there's,there's stuff to be done. But if
you're not taking some time toexamine kind of the frameworks
behind it, I think it takes, youknow, how do you disciple people
(23:31):
to dis, to discomfort? That isso, so, so, so counter cultural.
I mean community, just being incommunity, is counter cultural,
you know? And so, and then Iguess, you know, how do you
embed the heart of God for theworld into people? Where I was
talking to a friend yesterdaywho wanted to be He, he wanted
to be a martyr, like, we just,we just like that. To him, was
(23:55):
the pinnacle of service for theLord, you know. And we look at
that go like, What in the world,you know. And so, so we've just
become so comfortable Christianit cost us. Has cost us very
little for most of ourlifetimes, you know. And so,
really rethinking, and that'sthe Lord's work. With that
mindset and giving a heart of,I'll do whatever, and it's not
(24:18):
about my comfort or, you know,you know, you know, it's like,
well, sure, we'll plant achurch, and that's uncomfortable
for a few years, but at somepoint it'll be big enough that
things are comfortable andstable, you know. And to choose
to put yourself in that positionof discomfort over and over
again, to disciple people tothat, that's some large work
(24:38):
right there. I think, you know,and I wrestle with it all the
time, you know. And it's aneveryday kind of sacrifice kind
of thing. But so and thencommitting, and, you know,
finding other people who arecommitted in community, to
community, to that, and then go,what's the best ways to do? To
(24:59):
be mission like. Extensions inour particular environment,
individually, corporately,doesn't mean you can't be
organized, but the institutionis not the end of it or like the
peak.
Joshua Johnson (25:13):
So it feels like if we're missional extensions
and we're connected to eachother. So what does that look
like for leaders of theseorganizations. So either the
local church or parachurchorganizations, where I know that
when I'm leading a missionsorganization, I mean, one of the
things that I have to do is makesure that we have enough money,
(25:35):
and so I'm going to promote ourstuff, because we need enough
money to be able to do whatwe're doing the local church is
the same way they're going to belike, hey, we need enough money.
The cylinders or the silos, Ithink happen because of money
issues.
Angie Ward (25:54):
I think you're absolutely right. Yeah, money
complicates relationships.
Joshua Johnson (25:58):
Is there a way to move, move us towards a non
scarcity mindset in the kingdom,to an abundance mindset, like,
yeah, hey, God has enough forall of us. Like, yeah, there's
enough, yeah, and we can movetogether, yeah.
Angie Ward (26:17):
Part of it is that, like, part of it is theological,
like, really embracing this Godof abundance, and there's
enough. But I think another bigpart is defining what enough
means. And, you know, with theInstitute, I think, along with
the probably parallel, like, youknow, well, institutions are way
to do it. And institutions, Imean, the work needs money.
(26:37):
Well, yes and no, maybe not tomy maybe not in the way that you
think reframing, and really rerethinking our relationship to
with money and and if we'relooking at it as, you know, if
there is endless supply, well,it's not getting to some of the
right places. And then, youknow. And so even making the
(26:58):
hard decision of like, wouldyou, you know, would you as a
leader of an organization, wouldyou be willing to go under so
that another place thrive likethat's against the job
description of most of us asexecutive leaders, right? So in
a couple of there's more thesekind of tight, hard questions
for thought experiments. Andanother one I do sometimes with
my students and with leaders, isthis idea of, like, planned
(27:21):
obsolescence, obsolescence. SoDenver seminary, for example, we
were celebrating a 75thanniversary later this year.
What if we said we're only goingto be here for 15 more, 10 more?
What if we intentionally saidit's not going to be it's going
to get too unwieldy, if we justkind of try to keep it forever?
I mean, like none of the sevenchurches in Revelation are
(27:41):
around anymore. We just havethis idea that things are
supposed to last forever, and,you know, bigger up to the
right. So there's so manyassumptions we bring in. But
what if we, like, say, No, we'reonly gonna be here for 10 more
years. What are we gonna, youknow, kind of like the Wesley
thing, earn all you can give,all you can save, all you can
and so, but we're only gonna dothat for 10 years. You know,
(28:01):
those are like, those arereframing questions, I and
again, they are not easyconversations. And this, there's
so much stuff entrenched in, insystems, even from, like, tax
advantages, you know, like, notthat we shouldn't be shrewd and
all that kind of stuff, butwe're bound by it instead of
just utilizing all
Joshua Johnson (28:19):
right, since we're on the topic of money.
Let's talk about about businessleadership and the church. If
you were like, Hey, I have this,this doctorate in leadership, I
know more about leadership thanI do the church. And I think
that's probably what theevangelical church has been
like, is, yeah, like, just builton leadership and a lot of
(28:41):
business principles within theevangelical church. What was the
shift that you made to differentecclesial models, maybe, or what
the church is, or rediscoveringchurch, and how do we start to
shift the culture of theevangelical church from a
(29:02):
business leadership model to aNew Testament Church model.
Angie Ward (29:07):
Well, I think the first shift was just recognizing
how much I had unthinkinglyabsorbed, and we have
unthinkingly absorbed. I think,you know, the shift for me first
was to realize there's a asacred or divine component. It's
not just your everyday nonkinship. Like to use
sociological terms, it's notjust your everyday non kinship,
formal organization, 501, c3,there is a there's a mysterious,
(29:31):
divine, sacred there's somethingunique. The Holy Spirit does not
dwell in IBM, you know, like inthe way that it does in the
gathering of people together. Sothere's a sacred thing that the
early church, the apostles andearly church writers,
understood, that we've just kindof defaulted to this more
pragmatic, utilitarian,organizational kind of approach
(29:52):
and so, so I think most, youknow, most elders, a lot of
nonprofit leaders, have, I mean,they're they have the leadership
stuff, but they don't. Have thisunderstanding of our identity as
the body of Christ, and howthat's unique from just running
a group of people who haveorganized around a purpose. And
so I think our really, ourdeepest problems are
ecclesiological, big seminaryterm, but it's just really our
(30:15):
identity as the church andunderstanding of that, and to
discover that for me, and toread some just even what the
early church was like, and howthey were known, not for their
logo or their, you know,millions of what they were just
known for, their their love onthe ground, in everyday
situations, you know, andmeeting needs practically, and
(30:38):
sharing Jesus love with them, inwith the world in myriad ways.
And I know I mean ourorganization, our institutions,
have grown up around that stuff.
But there's so many trappingsthat come that doesn't take us
away from that and theleadership of the organization,
lot of times without thatfoundational understanding of
how a how the church, theuniversal, global and
(30:59):
congregations are, and we're,we're citizens of both kingdom,
you know, whatever. So there'sthat whole half of things which
really overarches the entirething. We've just lost it or
never had it. That
Joshua Johnson (31:13):
means it's there, though. That means that
we actually can, can get it likewe can move towards something
different and better, in a waythat it looks like the
sacredness of the gatheredpeople, the Holy Spirit is
present. We could get to thatplace. Is it a leadership issue,
or is it something else? Is itorganizational issue? Does it
(31:34):
take leaders to move ussomewhere? Does it take people
grassroots, you know, yeah, likepeople saying we're gonna gather
around something else. What doesit take? What's the issue? Yeah,
Angie Ward (31:46):
that's great. I mean, I think, well, one sense,
it's a mix, because it'sinteresting. I see people who
are, like, espousing a moreorganic thing, but then they're
now different, now trying tofranchise their organic mindset,
you know? So it's like, I mean,we just always have this
tendency, you know, that we, atsome point, we have to sell it
and monetize it again. Because,even as an individual, I can,
you know, you know, somebody cansay, well, this is the way we,
(32:07):
you know, what, if the prophetshad to be, you know, had to
support, raise or monetize, youknow, like what they're doing
and and so I think, you know,just talking with you, divorcing
ourselves from really trustingthe Lord's provision and for him
to determine what provision is,what would that be, you know?
(32:28):
And so part of it is, you know,there's some, there's a lot of
structural things we need tojust break down, these, these
walls and the silence and thewhole institutional mindset. We
need people really justreframing again to what I
suggest, this missionalextension thing, I think it
would do that would help do itwith like the celebrity stuff. I
think we need to take leadershipoff the pedestal. You mean, it's
(32:48):
not even one of the greatestgifts in Scripture. It's listed,
but it's listed as not one ofthe most important gifts of
Scripture, you know. So we haveto take that off the pedestal.
We have to retake a hard look atall of our systems and going,
are these really getting us towhere we really want to go and
where do we really need to go?
Do we even know where we reallyneed to go? Because so many have
just like, I can teach thisstuff in a leadership class, and
(33:11):
you would have taken it from meand go, Yeah, this is how we do
it at all levels, not justleaders rethinking this stuff,
but I think it takes a littlemore responsible followership of
people. We've let leadership runthe show, and leaders run the
show. And instead of going like,Okay, I'm I'm a disciple, I'm an
extension of God's mission here,what do I do and the personal
(33:34):
responsibility and stewardshipof that? So I think a
stewardship mindset also,instead of a build it big kind
of thing, stewardship, from aking, global kingdom
perspective, we just have anabundance of wealth here in the
United States. And so, like theflow of money is so inequitable,
you know? And it was reallyenlightening for me to have a
(33:54):
student in one of my classes afew years ago who talked, we
talked about how much percent ofa typical western church budget
goes for the Sunday morningexperience or attractional
thing. And then how manymillions of people around the
world do not have access toGod's Word in their own
language? Seeing the greaterpicture, I think, is a piece of
it as well. Well,
Joshua Johnson (34:16):
I know as a missions leader, for a long
time, the American church givesabout 1% of 1% to global
missions to the unreached, whichis that where we were going and
what we were doing, so it's,it's a very small amount. And so
that's the the problem. And itcould get me, and I could get
(34:36):
people in those organizationsthat are going after the same
thing where there is actually asmaller slice of the pie.
There's not a lot of money goingthere, so we have to fight each
other to get the little bit ofmoney. And that's, yeah, just
it's just horrific. It is justnot the kingdom, and it's not
God. But it feels like we justhave to do that. So we. Could
(35:00):
get our little little amount sowe can go do this thing for God.
But yeah, and I think that'sprobably another mindset we have
to shift, is we're the ones thatare actually doing everything
for God and without us, thenhe's not gonna be able to do
anything.
Angie Ward (35:15):
Yeah, yeah. Get rid of that. Yeah, yeah. Like, this
idea of, like, you know, this,like, I've seen some church
congregational purposestatements or, you know, to make
God's name famous, like he needsus for that. Like, read, you
know about Elijah. He doesn'tneed us for that. You know,
Joshua Johnson (35:31):
I want to get a framework for people to think
about missional extensions ofwhat you're trying to advocate
for here, yeah, like practicallyon the ground. What do you think
that that is going to look likefor us in this new era of the
church? What does missionalextensions look like for us? So
(35:51):
that maybe there's a step or twothat we could take to help get
us there.
Angie Ward (35:56):
I think one is, even if the walls aren't crumbling
around you, to get outside yourwalls and look around and say,
who's next to me? I mean, andjust going, like, where has God
placed me? Who? Who else has Godplaced next to me? Whether it's
in a particular, you know, areaof interest or but, you know,
just so first of all, that, likerealizing the imperative of
(36:16):
this, and then committing tocollaboration for that, and then
just looking around. So it'slike, you know, I suggest, like,
congregation or a nonprofit inthe same area. I know of food
pantries or pregnancy centers orwhatever crisis center that are
right next to each other, butthey are from different
denominations or differentstreams, and so they don't talk
to each other, you know. Soreframe the whole thing, saying,
(36:38):
Okay, I am a missional extensionwhere I am. My congregation has,
you know, there's more this nearneighbor missionality to it, you
know, as like frost and Hirschwill talk about, and then
there's also this ends of theearth. But also we're, when we
think of that, it's like, well,we're the center, and then we go
to this end, end of the earth.
We're the center. We go this endof the earth thing, you know,
(36:58):
well, it's like, but there'sother people who are their
center is over there. So we'vejust got to get over this
exceptionalism, this Western,you know, some colonialism, you
know, just kind of thing andlittle steps. It's not like. And
I think we also, how do wepartner so that we reach the
whole world? It's like, Well,start with your neighborhood.
You know, I know global missionsleaders who don't know their
next door neighbors, and I knowseminary professors who are not
(37:22):
part of a local congregation,you know. And most of us, most
of the people in the Bible, inthe Scripture, are everyday
folks. They weren't all calledto go to the ends of the earth.
That was kind of a seconddecision that Ralph winter from
fuller talked about, you know.
And I think that lets most of usoff the hook. And so I think we
need to go not just Well, I'm aleader. What do I do? I think
(37:44):
everyone in our in ourcongregation, I think everyone
must be in a local community. Ithink there's something
spiritual that happens when wegather together and that. So I
think we've lost that as well.
So so get in a local community,not just the Lord has been
working on me lately. About ayear ago, I felt like Lord was
saying, as a leader, it's easyfor me to hide behind the
leadership shield. I've beenburned in church ministry. My
husband was a pastor, as apastor's wife all this. So the
(38:06):
Lord said just it's you need tonow it's time for you to get
back to not just commit tocommunity, but to submit to
community. We don't like thatwhole idea of submission. I
mean, it goes against WesternAmerican entrepreneurialism. You
know, so many things areembedded in there. And so to
humble ourselves and see whatthe Lord is doing and what other
(38:27):
great things and becoming thesupporting person, not always
the leading up out kind ofthing. Lot of it's hard work.
Joshua Johnson (38:36):
All of this is hard work. Well, right? Yeah,
well, it's, it's work, and itrequires formation discipleship.
It requires us to actually lookmore like Jesus and to follow
him instead of anything else inthe world. And, yeah, it's just,
it's just that daily walk withHim in community. And you know,
(38:58):
we could get there, but it'sgonna take some, good, solid
work. You know, if you say thatwe're we're in this inflection
point in history of the church,that there is a big shift that
we're living in the middle ofwhich it feels unmooring, and
it's, you know, not easy, butbecause we're in this inflection
point, if you look out at thelandscape of the church, what is
(39:20):
giving you hope for the churchto the moment. One thing
Angie Ward (39:23):
is giving me hope is that we can't keep doing it the
way we're always worth that's afrightening thing to a lot of
people. That to me, it's, Ithink it was frustrating
sometimes to try to bring changeto some pretty stagnant stuff.
And so it's like we're having tofind some new ways. And I'm just
seeing a lot of people returningto roots, which is great. I
mean, there's causing people toask questions. I'm seeing a lot
(39:44):
of different, you know,individuals and organizations or
groups, you know, and leadersstarting to ask some of these
questions and thinking justbigger picture than my
institution, my you know, thislittle our little poll. Lot of
ground. I just think the themustard seed way of the kingdom
(40:05):
we're seeing some of return tosome of those ways. You know,
there, there's just more andmore the conversation, you know,
if you and I had talked about,like, missional church, or, you
know, any of this type of stuff.
I mean, there's a lingo that cango with some of that too. But
like, more and more people cometo me at Denver Center, and
they're familiar with that kindof stuff, and they're going, you
know, what is this or or they'regoing, they're coming in and
(40:26):
saying, Something's not working,something's not right. And so
they're at a point where they'reripe for change and reevaluation
and growth. Sometimes, becauseit's forced, it's like, well, my
my whole thing closed down. Nowwhat I do, and others are
saying, Man, I'm seeing we'renot having to stop, we're not
collaborating. We're more andmore polarized, you know, and
(40:49):
and so they're seeing the needand can't just do status quo. So
to me, that's actually hopeful,because that means that opens up
portals for that work to happen.
Joshua Johnson (41:03):
So what hope do you have for your readers that
pick up beyond church andparachurch? What do you want
people? What's the outcome forthis book for you? Yeah, I
Angie Ward (41:11):
would. I want, first of all, I want people to fall in
love with the church like, youknow, congregation, but just
God's design and heart for thebody of Christ. Then to also
just be convinced like that weneed the whole church for the
whole world in this moment. Andthen to exam like, okay, so
what? And then, what does thatmean for me, in particular,
(41:33):
whatever your you know, localeand context and and just be a
mustard seed in that area, inyour wherever God has put you
blown you planted you for Ithink so those are big things.
But I just really want us tochampion. I'm kind of a champion
for the church to like we'vejust lost, lost who we are. It's
an identity thing. It's not justa belonging to it's, it really
(41:53):
is our identity which changeseverything. If
Joshua Johnson (41:56):
you could go back to your 21 year old self,
Angie, what advice would yougive Wow,
Angie Ward (42:02):
the same thing I'm wrestling with right now, or
continue to, because I'm a goodEnneagram one and all the
different things, like, itdoesn't all depend on you. Yeah,
right, exactly. Yeah, no, the itdoesn't all depend on you. So to
again, to the posture of trustand openness and humility and
sorry, 21 years self, there's alot of striving. So I think
(42:23):
there is for every 21 year old.
But hopefully I've mellowed alot more, you know, and so, but
it just doesn't all depend onme. And I think, you know, a lot
of things, the evangelicalculture, subculture I grew up
in, too, is like we've got tobe, even though victorious and
conquer for Jesus. It's all upto us to do all the work. And so
just increasing dependence on
Joshua Johnson (42:44):
the Lord, anything you've been reading or
watching lately, you couldrecommend, well, reading and
watching,
Angie Ward (42:49):
and then that I could recommend, yes, I'm
reading. Well, actually, ourpresident. We have a new
president at Denver seminary.
This is more of a leadership Benthing. He's actually so, so in
the reality of that, he'sleading an institution that has
not said, we're just going to bearound 510 years. So I'm I read
a kind of book on managingothers called good authority,
and about how to bring in therelational dynamics and like
those types of things. I'm alsoreading, our small group is
(43:11):
going through a book about,like, the use of technology in
our lives. And I think restlessdevices is really good. It talks
about how people need communion,not just community, you know,
and and the role of that. Andthen I'm reading a leadership
book called, kind of a businessbook called the competing
against luck. So I'm looking atmy right now, my little Kindle
(43:35):
thing. So I've been readingthose things some more stuff
about, like, how to be a nonanxious presence in changing
environments. Well,
Joshua Johnson (43:43):
how can people go out and get your book Beyond
church and para church, andwhere else would you like to
point people
Angie Ward (43:50):
to? Yeah, thanks.
Where to find the book? It'severywhere you buy fine. That's
fine. Booksellers. It's like allthe websites, Amazon. It's
published by University Press,IVP. I have several other books
about like a leadership,ministry leadership case study
book and a book about callingfor women ministry leaders. But
you can go to my website, AngieWard, phd.com, or find me on the
Denver seminary website. I workat Denver seminary as director
(44:13):
of our Doctor of Ministryprogram, so if anybody's
interested in that, I can talkto you about that as well. But
my overall calling is reallyjust to equip and encourage the
church through like ministryleaders and leadership
development, so you have to dothat through a variety of cool
outlets. Well,
Joshua Johnson (44:29):
Angie, thank you for this conversation. I really
enjoyed talking to you. Enjoyedgoing deep into where we are in
church history, that we're aninflection point, that we can
rethink what we've been doing,and we could see the Spirit of
God move in ways where we couldgather as the saints together,
(44:50):
and we could see the sacredspace that then we could start
to work together. We could,like, get rid of our walls, and
we could become missionalextensions wherever we are.
Yeah. And, yeah, the globalchurch, wherever we are, we
could work together, and wecould do it imagine, I know,
isn't that amazing? The kingdomis big and it's wide, and
(45:10):
there's room for all of us toplay, and God is with us, and
it's, it's amazing. So I lovedour conversation. Thank you so
much. Thank you. You
But it just doesn't all depend on me. And I think,
(00:03):
you know, a lot of things, theevangelical culture, subculture
I grew up in, too, is like we'vegot to be evangelical victorious
and conquer for Jesus. It's allup to us to do all the work, and
so just increasing dependence onthe Lord.
Joshua Johnson (00:22):
You Joshua, hello and welcome to the
shifting culture podcast inwhich we have conversations
about the culture we create andthe impact we can make. We long
to see the body of Christ looklike Jesus. I'm your host.
Joshua Johnson, what happenswhen institutions we've trusted
start to crumble and we realizethey were never meant to carry
(00:46):
the weight we gave them. Today,I'm joined by Angie ward. She
invites us into a deepreimagining of the church, not
just as a building or anorganization, but as a spirit
formed people living on missiontogether, Angie has spent
decades in both church andparachurch worlds, and she
brings hard, won wisdom andclarity to a question many of us
(01:07):
are asking right now, what isthe church supposed to be? We
talk about the historical splitbetween church and parachurch,
what it would look like to movefrom siloed excellence to shared
mission, and why this culturalmoment might be the perfect time
to rethink everything, not outof panic, but out of trust. We
discussed institutionalcollapse, missional ecosystems,
(01:30):
scarcity versus abundance, andhow to step into new paradigms
when the old ones stop working.
If you're sensing the shakingand the foundations and
wondering what's next for thepeople of God Join us as we
imagine an ecosystem ofmissional extensions. Here is my
conversation with Angie ward.
Angie, welcome to shiftingculture. Excited to have you on
(01:52):
thank you for joining me.
Angie Ward (01:54):
Thank you so much for having me. Fun to chat
beforehand. Well, it's
Joshua Johnson (01:58):
going to be great talking about beyond
church and parachurch. I haveworked in the church, I've
worked in parachurchorganizations, so I've been in
both worlds. I've seen the crazyconfusion, misunderstanding of
who we are and what we're tryingto do and how we're trying to
advance the Kingdom of Godtogether, and amen, we're not
very good at working together.
So I'm excited to dive into whatit looks like to actually
(02:21):
advance the kingdom. But beforethat, you start your book out
with the state of the church,like, where are we? So I'd love
to hear where are we. You go, goway back and you talk about
turning points in churchhistory. So I'd love to hear
some of that to see where weare. And why do you think this
is like an inflection point forus,
Angie Ward (02:42):
yeah, today, yeah.
So where we are. I guess there'skind of two perspectives. One is
kind of the the data drivenstuff, which just all the
research is showing. Now therehas been a slowdown and maybe a
plateau, but like the rise ofthe nones, the unchurched,
especially in Western cultures,right? So Europe, United States,
well, meanwhile, the center ofglobal Christianity is shifting
to the south and to the east,and so we've, you know, churches
(03:04):
are closing left and right.
Seminaries are, you know, dyingclose. All these kind of
institutional structures thathave been part of our society
for really centuries. We're justseeing this massive shift, kind
of like Phyllis tickle talksabout, or quotes, at least
references, kind of this idea ofthis rummage sale in the great
emergence. And so it seems likewe are in this, maybe not since,
(03:26):
seen since the Reformation, butlike this very large global
shift in Christianity and thechurch and religiosity. So
there's that. But then there'salso, you know, kind of those of
us on the ground in ministry,vocational, you know, vocational
ministry or part time, whateverKingdom work as part of that
shift we're seeing like adecline in trust in
(03:47):
institutions, and we've seenleadership failures and all that
kind of and a lack of truediscipleship. You know, like
what we've been doing has beengetting what we're getting. We
just have this landscapelittered with all these our new
President of Denver seminaryused this phrase the other day,
he said, he said, Oh yeah, at mylast institution, we had all he
said, we had cylinders ofexcellence, and we all just kind
(04:10):
of looked and he said, akasilos. And so we have all these
cylinders of excellence, manydoing excellent work, but often
very siloed from one another, ifnot outright, depending on your
perspective, even Anna monsteris saying, well, they're not
really the church and just this.
You know, it's been easy to likeblame cultural factors on the
decline of the Church and itsinfluence, and not just local
(04:33):
congregation, but justChristianity. But I think part
of it, a large part of it, isthat we are unclear on who we
are supposed to be as a church,like our identity as believers,
what we're supposed to be anddo. So seven or eight years ago,
now, maybe a little bit more, Iwas teaching ministry the way
that I've been taught it,leadership, the way I've been
taught it and experienced it.
(04:54):
And I grew up in kind of theBill Hybels, you know, era and
mega churches exploding.
Everything rises and falls. Onleadership. John Maxwell, and
like, I'm teaching that stuff,and I have a PhD in leadership,
so like, this is what I bankedeverything, you know, like I'm
an expert on and then I stop andgo, like I stopped cold. The
students don't recognize, Idon't think, and I'm and I'm
thinking, like I'm teaching to aparticular model and
(05:16):
understanding here of ministryand the church and and
leadership, and I don'tunderstand, I don't know how we
got here, or if I even buy thismodel, like I suddenly
critically reflected in a way Ihad never had to do. I mean, I
just, you just, kind of, it wasthe water we swim in. And I
thought, and I have thesedegrees from these reputable
schools, you know, in inseminaries, you know, in in
(05:40):
ministry and ministryleadership. And I got a PhD in
leadership, ministry leadership.
But I know more about leadershipthan I do about the church, the
beautiful bride of Christ. And Ithink that's if I'm teaching
this stuff that's a problem. IfI don't know that, and I don't
think I'm the only one that'sthat problem. And, you know, and
then, as I started digging thebook, is kind of the outworking
(06:03):
of years of kind of searching onmy own and going, what is the
church supposed to be and do?
How does church and what we callparachurch, or nonprofit
Christian organizations, howdoes it all fit together? When
did we first even talk in theseterms? And then from there, like
went back to the early churchand went, Oh, there's actually a
history here from, I talk aboutan overview from Paul to Promise
Keepers, you know, and like, oh,there's a lot more history here
(06:26):
that I need to be aware of. Andas I put all these pieces
together, you
Joshua Johnson (06:32):
said before that we're kind of confused of what
the church is and the purpose ofchurch, and so bring us into
that place. What is church, andwhy are we here? Like, that's
the
Angie Ward (06:44):
book right in front of me, so I could be reading to
you what I actually wrote inthere. One of the things I
pointed in the book with themany ways we use the term
church, you know, it can mean abuilding. It can mean a place
where you kind of take partakeof religious services, like
we're, you know, it really doesservice events, but also
services, you receive thingsfrom it, you know, kind of a
(07:05):
transactional kind of thing, youknow, I go to such and such
church, you know. So partly wejust have all these
misunderstandings, or we talk.
It's, I think it's been, becomefashionable now to say, because
I think there have been failuressometimes with local leadership
or particular congregations.
Well, I'm part of the church,but it's this global thing. And
I'm not really a part of a localcongregation, but I think church
(07:28):
in the Bible is actuallyEcclesia. It's this gathered
people for you know that it's amissional community, but
there's, it's a formationalpiece too, and we're shaped by
the gathering of it, but we arealso called to each of us is
called to be on mission. It'snot just churches are called to
be mission. And by missions, Idon't just mean the term. The
(07:49):
way I grew up understandingmission was global evangelism to
the like, to the unreached. Weare also all to be part of God's
redemptive mission, drawingpeople in the world to himself,
and, you know, making all thingsnew. And so, so the the church
is a community of believers whoare together on mission, you
know, this missio day kind ofthing. And so there's this
(08:11):
gatheredness, but also asentence to it. And so I think
last time we we get one or notthe other, this or not that. You
know, there's a, there's aglobal, universal piece to it,
where we're part of, like, allbelievers, all time and place,
you know, all over the world,and also called to be part of a
local community, you know. Andso it's this, lots of this,
(08:32):
both. And
Joshua Johnson (08:33):
so then what is para church? And how did that
come about? Yeah, and how doesthat connect in with church?
Angie Ward (08:40):
Well, so what I discovered, like, I grew up in
what I heard that term parachurch, and I kind of vaguely
knew parachurch. Think of likeall these kind of used to be,
you just had your local parishor your congregation, and then
you had, like non profits ordenominations would have a
publishing branch, or whateveryou have these kind of more
(09:03):
mission or purpose specificorganizations for ministry. So
parachurch could includeanything from InterVarsity,
crew, navs, you know, that typeof to publishers, IVP, to
seminaries like Denver seminaryto global evangelistic mission
agencies to CompassionInternational. I mean, the the
list I do in the book, there'sjust dozens and dozens of even
(09:26):
categories Christian radio, likethe majority of those sprang up
for a unique need, a unique timeand place. And so, like, couple
100 years ago, it was a lot ofBible track societies to help
get or literacy. You know,didn't get the printed by
Wycliffe. You know, some ofthose are still around for for
many years, but they came upwith a, you know, the local
church, or church was kind ofthe local congregation, and
(09:49):
you're more bound by locale,because you couldn't regionally
go or watch something online.
But then you would also give tothese social concern,
evangelistic, these kind ofmissional or. Organizations,
which at some point became knownas para church, so either
alongside the church or next to,but not really in partnership
(10:09):
with, and that was part of theconfusion. Like, is, what is
para church? Relationship?
Church? And some people wouldsay para church is the church,
and other people say, Well, no,they're both part of the, you
know, it's just, but there's alike various schools of thought,
of, well, you know, some parachurch would say, or, like,
Christian nonprofit, I think isa more familiar term to many of
(10:31):
us. It's like, well, parachurch, these organizations,
wouldn't have had to rise up ifthe church hadn't had done this
job, you know. Or there's otherssaying, No, you look at like,
you know, many like, megachurches or networks now,
they're really a federation of acongregation with parachurch
ministries. So there's, there'sthis gathered and sentness kind
of thing again, and so, so a lotof times parachurch is helping
(10:54):
facilitate the sent portion fora particular mission and time
and people.
Joshua Johnson (10:59):
Is this a new phenomenon, or has this happened
before? Well,
Angie Ward (11:03):
I thought it was a new phenomenon. I mean, I knew
that there was like in the 1940s50s, like the Christian college.
I went to the Christian camp, Iworked for campus life, that I
was involved. There was aexplosion of these kind of in
the 40s, early 1950s and so Iknew about all that. But when I
started going back to that'swhen kind of the term parachurch
(11:23):
was used. But then you startgoing back to, like the Second
Great Awakening here, and yourealize that there were actually
these, these voluntarysocieties, which were the
forerunner to what we would callparachurch. We had those a while
ago. And you go back evenfurther, and you go back, like
1000 or years of monasticism.
And I thought monastics, for allthe people who went lived in the
desert or were cloisteredcompletely and and what I
(11:44):
discovered was that, you know,there was the early church, and
they just kind of went out andstarted sharing the apostles.
You know, the Acts of theApostles, reread all that, and
then over time, these structureskind of emerge. But then that
were like for the local church,and as a church became a little
more centralized through whatthe Church, which is now, at the
time, was just the church. Nowwe have the Roman Catholic
(12:07):
Church. And so is it new? Not atall. Throughout the history of
Christianity, people have beenfinding, have been going out the
least, the loss, the needs,bringing the full gospel, you
know, to the whole world throughthese variety of kind of
structures and ways of makingwork. So like Manas, the
(12:27):
monasteries were healing thesick. First hospitals were
coming out of that, you know,they were teaching kids. The
first preschool is literacy, allthat stuff, the things that we
do today as these separateorganizations that was part of
monasticism. So, I mean, we havejust a long history of that, and
a long history of church, and,quote, parachurch, not knowing
how exactly to relate to oneanother and who gets the who has
(12:51):
the control of whom.
Joshua Johnson (12:54):
All right, so this has been happening forever
that we don't know how to relateto each other and we don't know
who is in control? Yeah. As youwere looking through some
research, has there been anyeras in history where church and
para church get along and theywork well together, in a way
that it's a symbioticrelationship, like we're in this
(13:17):
together. This is Kingdom work,and let's do it together. Yeah,
have you seen that? I would
Angie Ward (13:23):
say there's instances, but I wouldn't say
it's an era of widespread Imean, it's you find pockets all
the time, and also you have kindof, depending on what people's
theological bent is, is evenlike, what the purpose of search
is, you know. So, you know, evenin monasticism, it was like,
there was some tension between,like, the clearly, clergy and
the monks, because who was doingthe work of the ministry, and
(13:45):
then who was sanctioned by thePope, you know, and so then. But
then there are, from times likearound Second Great Awakening,
also in the late 1800s therewere these agreements between
various denominations.
Denominations started havingtheir own like publishing houses
and stuff. But, you know, inProtestant history, our nature
is to break off and set aprotest. We're great at right? I
(14:06):
mean, right, right there in thename. How ironic, right, you
know, and so and so, you know,you certainly see people who
want to so I'd say there's somewho are, you know, they have a
more antagonistic view, onetoward the other. But many are
just like, I don't know how todo this. I'm so busy with what's
going on in front of me. Theneeds are so great. The needs
(14:27):
are so great that I don't havetime to collaborate in one
sense, or I don't know where tostart. So I don't know that in,
you know that, I would say inchurches or one big era where
everybody worked together, Ithink that's not going to happen
until the other side of the youknow, of heaven.
Joshua Johnson (14:43):
One of the things you said at the beginning
is that the state of where weare, we've lost trust in
institutions, and so it feelslike there's people willing to
to cross pollinate in ways wehaven't seen before. They're
willing to collaborate in. Inways where it's not really just
about institutional loyaltyanymore. It's more, I mean, in
(15:07):
pockets, there's loyalty for thekingdom of God, for Jesus, and
hey, we're going to do thistogether. Have you seen any
shift in people starting to worktogether because of this new
distrust in institution. And isthere a history of institutional
(15:28):
distrust? Has that happenedbefore, or are we in just new
territory?
Angie Ward (15:32):
Yeah, I think are people more willing? Yes. I
think COVID. I think we wouldall say COVID, the pandemic,
accelerated things that we werestarting to see happen and kind
of expose and so I think a lotof people, you know, if you
picture people in their kind of,their their building, from their
headquarters, theircongregation, or whatever, like,
the wall started crumblingaround them and and, you know,
(15:54):
some were like, we've got to putthis back up, you know. But then
as they're coming down, you lookout and you go, hey, you've been
right next to me this wholetime, but I've been so busy with
what's going on within my walls.
Sometimes it's just that I'vejust been, you know, busy, or
we've got our focus here in thisbuilding, or this, you know,
cylinder of excellence, youknow, as it were, and other
times it's like, you know, somepeople would say, well, our job
(16:16):
was to keep the wall up, youknow, but, but those that's a
mindset that will go withwherever those people go, you
know. But yeah, I think peopleare going, like, the discussion
all the things we were doingbefore the like, I said, like,
the reliability of institutions,of leaders, were having to find
whole different the decline ofof kind of Christendom, and this
(16:36):
assumed Christianity in Westernculture that had held for so
many centuries. All of that isgone, and so suddenly we're now
on the margins, or just don'thave a position of power, and we
have to just start lookorganically again. I see
missions, agencies, you know,like minded, coming together and
saying, okay, you've got thispart of the world in this part,
(16:59):
or we're doing this this way andthis way. But instead of saying
we're doing it this way, becausethis is the only way, we're
saying no, now we need you to dothat. I see networks of campus
ministries, college universityministries, going, Okay, we've
got IV crew and MAVs all on onecampus, but this one other
campus here has nothing. Youknow, how do we go together to
(17:20):
those, you know, unreachedplaces here, you know, in the
United States or or WesternEurope. So I think it feels a
little chilly because it'sexposing. It's a little breezy
when the walls come down, butit's making us go like, Oh, I
can't just rebuild the brickhere. And institutions may not
be the salvation we thought theywere. Then, what do you think is
(17:41):
perfect leading question? Yeah,well, I you know one of the
things, you know, when Jesussays, like, Go into all the
world, and you look at the earlychurch, they were just kind of
mission bands of people goingaround. It was very movemental
the early church. And I thinkthe church is supposed to the
mission of God was very movementof the Holy Spirit. And move
movement. And over time, webuilt institutions,
(18:02):
organizations, institutions,because there is value in
organizing to get stuff donelike but when, when institutions
become institutionalism, andmost of your time is spent
trying to, you know, your job isto keep the institution going
and strong. You know, I think wewe've grown up in for centuries.
So you and I are just immersedin this, in an institutional
(18:24):
framework of how things shouldget done, how things do get
done. And as those walls comedown, my suggestion, and this is
the title of the book, is reallymoving to a completely new
paradigm, not just of people inthe institutions doing things
differently, and which is whatwe were seeing for a while, like
even seeker sensitive movement,different churches. And you
(18:46):
know, it's like, let's changeour methodology. But I think we
have to really come down all theway to again, what is the church
supposed to be and do? And thenwhat are the structures? How
much do we even need structure?
But maybe it's not thisinstitutional. So I envision
this, what I call missionalextensions. It doesn't flow as
easily off the tongue as prayer.
Church has become, you know,church and parachurch, but this
(19:07):
ecosystem, globally of missionalextensions, where you and I as
individual believers, I'm amissional extension to my
neighborhood and by DenverUniversity. Here through the
work I do at Denver seminary.
I'm then part of a localcongregation called Platt Park
church. And we're, you know, acommunity that is on, you know,
of these missional extensions,we ourselves are a mission
(19:30):
extension. Our ends of the earthwill be somebody else's local,
you know, local ministry andjust viewing ourselves instead
of cylinders of excellence.
What? What would it be like togo like, if whatever you're
doing Joshua doesn't work, Ifeel the loss like, like we, we
just in a true system. Everychange changes everything, and
(19:51):
we've been so insulated orsometimes isolated, even though
we talk about unity, wherethere's really not a meaningful.
Like impact to each other andthroughout. So you know, back to
your one of your firstquestions, like this, this
unique missional moment andcultural moment, where, where we
are in this rum sale, this kindof yard sale, this upheaval, all
(20:11):
the kind of assumptions, kind ofcrumbling about institutions,
leaders, all that kind of stufflike this is primary
opportunity, and we can't nottake advantage of it, not for
like, Oh, we're going to win,but like, in a posture of
humility, saying why we needeach other. We're past this.
Like, building, you know,building big things to make
(20:35):
Jesus name great in, like, bigdeclarative institutions and
towers, but like mustard, seedystuff.
Joshua Johnson (20:44):
All right, I'm going to take you into our
church for a moment, because Ithink this is helpful. I a year
before COVID, God told us to getrid of our building and to roam
the city. And so now, afterafter six, we've been been at
this six years. And so now we'rein we're in home churches three
times a month. We gather once amonth all together, where, from
(21:09):
the beginning, we've been tryingto build a kingdom ecosystem, is
what we've called it, yeah. Andso we're trying to, like, think,
new paradigm of what ecosystemis, and it's, I mean, it's a
hard slog. It's not easy. Imean, you're, we're gonna lose
people. People are like they'reinstitutionalized. They love the
(21:32):
institution. They want. Theywant it. They feel safe and
secure in it. Ecosystemssometimes don't feel that. They
feel unmoored. And I don't knowwhere I'm going and what we're
doing, it would be so easy tojust slip back into
institutional life, because itis easier. How do we start to
(21:57):
move towards new paradigms, newthinking, new ways and keep it
up when the stuff hits the fanwell,
Angie Ward (22:05):
and you talk about institutional life, and I think
there's a distinction. I thinkwe've seen a lot of folks go
away from institutional life,but that doesn't mean we should
go away from corporate life. Andso like, and so the you know,
the trick is to okay, how do wedo this together in new ways
when it's way more comfortable,you know, we seek equilibrium,
you know. I so some of the waysto move toward the other stuff,
(22:29):
like, one, it's like you could,kind of, you could burn your
ships and say, We just can't doit that way. I mean, like, you
could just, you know, you saidwe sold the building. So, you
know, there might be atemptation to go back, but like,
where are you going to go, youknow? And so you could do some
draft, you know, some peoplemight say drastic things like
that, you know. Roland Smith,our mutual friend, talks about,
(22:50):
you're always discipling yourpeople toward something, you
know, and just even bringing anawareness of what assumptions
are we bringing in and ortraining and embedding and
perpetuating by what we're doinghere and evaluating stuff of the
assumptions level. And here injoffle, Christianity is not
(23:10):
known for doing that very well,because we're, we're people of
action. You're activists, youknow. And Christian, the
Christian church in general, is,you know, we are missional. And
so it's like, there, there's,there's stuff to be done. But if
you're not taking some time toexamine kind of the frameworks
behind it, I think it takes, youknow, how do you disciple people
(23:31):
to dis, to discomfort? That isso, so, so, so counter cultural.
I mean community, just being incommunity, is counter cultural,
you know? And so, and then Iguess, you know, how do you
embed the heart of God for theworld into people? Where I was
talking to a friend yesterdaywho wanted to be He, he wanted
to be a martyr, like, we just,we just like that. To him, was
(23:55):
the pinnacle of service for theLord, you know. And we look at
that go like, What in the world,you know. And so, so we've just
become so comfortable Christianit cost us. Has cost us very
little for most of ourlifetimes, you know. And so,
really rethinking, and that'sthe Lord's work. With that
mindset and giving a heart of,I'll do whatever, and it's not
(24:18):
about my comfort or, you know,you know, you know, it's like,
well, sure, we'll plant achurch, and that's uncomfortable
for a few years, but at somepoint it'll be big enough that
things are comfortable andstable, you know. And to choose
to put yourself in that positionof discomfort over and over
again, to disciple people tothat, that's some large work
(24:38):
right there. I think, you know,and I wrestle with it all the
time, you know. And it's aneveryday kind of sacrifice kind
of thing. But so and thencommitting, and, you know,
finding other people who arecommitted in community, to
community, to that, and then go,what's the best ways to do? To
(24:59):
be mission like. Extensions inour particular environment,
individually, corporately,doesn't mean you can't be
organized, but the institutionis not the end of it or like the
peak.
Joshua Johnson (25:13):
So it feels like if we're missional extensions
and we're connected to eachother. So what does that look
like for leaders of theseorganizations. So either the
local church or parachurchorganizations, where I know that
when I'm leading a missionsorganization, I mean, one of the
things that I have to do is makesure that we have enough money,
(25:35):
and so I'm going to promote ourstuff, because we need enough
money to be able to do whatwe're doing the local church is
the same way they're going to belike, hey, we need enough money.
The cylinders or the silos, Ithink happen because of money
issues.
Angie Ward (25:54):
I think you're absolutely right. Yeah, money
complicates relationships.
Joshua Johnson (25:58):
Is there a way to move, move us towards a non
scarcity mindset in the kingdom,to an abundance mindset, like,
yeah, hey, God has enough forall of us. Like, yeah, there's
enough, yeah, and we can movetogether, yeah.
Angie Ward (26:17):
Part of it is that, like, part of it is theological,
like, really embracing this Godof abundance, and there's
enough. But I think another bigpart is defining what enough
means. And, you know, with theInstitute, I think, along with
the probably parallel, like, youknow, well, institutions are way
to do it. And institutions, Imean, the work needs money.
(26:37):
Well, yes and no, maybe not tomy maybe not in the way that you
think reframing, and really rerethinking our relationship to
with money and and if we'relooking at it as, you know, if
there is endless supply, well,it's not getting to some of the
right places. And then, youknow. And so even making the
(26:58):
hard decision of like, wouldyou, you know, would you as a
leader of an organization, wouldyou be willing to go under so
that another place thrive likethat's against the job
description of most of us asexecutive leaders, right? So in
a couple of there's more thesekind of tight, hard questions
for thought experiments. Andanother one I do sometimes with
my students and with leaders, isthis idea of, like, planned
(27:21):
obsolescence, obsolescence. SoDenver seminary, for example, we
were celebrating a 75thanniversary later this year.
What if we said we're only goingto be here for 15 more, 10 more?
What if we intentionally saidit's not going to be it's going
to get too unwieldy, if we justkind of try to keep it forever?
I mean, like none of the sevenchurches in Revelation are
(27:41):
around anymore. We just havethis idea that things are
supposed to last forever, and,you know, bigger up to the
right. So there's so manyassumptions we bring in. But
what if we, like, say, No, we'reonly gonna be here for 10 more
years. What are we gonna, youknow, kind of like the Wesley
thing, earn all you can give,all you can save, all you can
and so, but we're only gonna dothat for 10 years. You know,
(28:01):
those are like, those arereframing questions, I and
again, they are not easyconversations. And this, there's
so much stuff entrenched in, insystems, even from, like, tax
advantages, you know, like, notthat we shouldn't be shrewd and
all that kind of stuff, butwe're bound by it instead of
just utilizing all
Joshua Johnson (28:19):
right, since we're on the topic of money.
Let's talk about about businessleadership and the church. If
you were like, Hey, I have this,this doctorate in leadership, I
know more about leadership thanI do the church. And I think
that's probably what theevangelical church has been
like, is, yeah, like, just builton leadership and a lot of
(28:41):
business principles within theevangelical church. What was the
shift that you made to differentecclesial models, maybe, or what
the church is, or rediscoveringchurch, and how do we start to
shift the culture of theevangelical church from a
(29:02):
business leadership model to aNew Testament Church model.
Angie Ward (29:07):
Well, I think the first shift was just recognizing
how much I had unthinkinglyabsorbed, and we have
unthinkingly absorbed. I think,you know, the shift for me first
was to realize there's a asacred or divine component. It's
not just your everyday nonkinship. Like to use
sociological terms, it's notjust your everyday non kinship,
formal organization, 501, c3,there is a there's a mysterious,
(29:31):
divine, sacred there's somethingunique. The Holy Spirit does not
dwell in IBM, you know, like inthe way that it does in the
gathering of people together. Sothere's a sacred thing that the
early church, the apostles andearly church writers,
understood, that we've just kindof defaulted to this more
pragmatic, utilitarian,organizational kind of approach
(29:52):
and so, so I think most, youknow, most elders, a lot of
nonprofit leaders, have, I mean,they're they have the leadership
stuff, but they don't. Have thisunderstanding of our identity as
the body of Christ, and howthat's unique from just running
a group of people who haveorganized around a purpose. And
so I think our really, ourdeepest problems are
ecclesiological, big seminaryterm, but it's just really our
(30:15):
identity as the church andunderstanding of that, and to
discover that for me, and toread some just even what the
early church was like, and howthey were known, not for their
logo or their, you know,millions of what they were just
known for, their their love onthe ground, in everyday
situations, you know, andmeeting needs practically, and
(30:38):
sharing Jesus love with them, inwith the world in myriad ways.
And I know I mean ourorganization, our institutions,
have grown up around that stuff.
But there's so many trappingsthat come that doesn't take us
away from that and theleadership of the organization,
lot of times without thatfoundational understanding of
how a how the church, theuniversal, global and
(30:59):
congregations are, and we're,we're citizens of both kingdom,
you know, whatever. So there'sthat whole half of things which
really overarches the entirething. We've just lost it or
never had it. That
Joshua Johnson (31:13):
means it's there, though. That means that
we actually can, can get it likewe can move towards something
different and better, in a waythat it looks like the
sacredness of the gatheredpeople, the Holy Spirit is
present. We could get to thatplace. Is it a leadership issue,
or is it something else? Is itorganizational issue? Does it
(31:34):
take leaders to move ussomewhere? Does it take people
grassroots, you know, yeah, likepeople saying we're gonna gather
around something else. What doesit take? What's the issue? Yeah,
Angie Ward (31:46):
that's great. I mean, I think, well, one sense,
it's a mix, because it'sinteresting. I see people who
are, like, espousing a moreorganic thing, but then they're
now different, now trying tofranchise their organic mindset,
you know? So it's like, I mean,we just always have this
tendency, you know, that we, atsome point, we have to sell it
and monetize it again. Because,even as an individual, I can,
you know, you know, somebody cansay, well, this is the way we,
(32:07):
you know, what, if the prophetshad to be, you know, had to
support, raise or monetize, youknow, like what they're doing
and and so I think, you know,just talking with you, divorcing
ourselves from really trustingthe Lord's provision and for him
to determine what provision is,what would that be, you know?
(32:28):
And so part of it is, you know,there's some, there's a lot of
structural things we need tojust break down, these, these
walls and the silence and thewhole institutional mindset. We
need people really justreframing again to what I
suggest, this missionalextension thing, I think it
would do that would help do itwith like the celebrity stuff. I
think we need to take leadershipoff the pedestal. You mean, it's
(32:48):
not even one of the greatestgifts in Scripture. It's listed,
but it's listed as not one ofthe most important gifts of
Scripture, you know. So we haveto take that off the pedestal.
We have to retake a hard look atall of our systems and going,
are these really getting us towhere we really want to go and
where do we really need to go?
Do we even know where we reallyneed to go? Because so many have
just like, I can teach thisstuff in a leadership class, and
(33:11):
you would have taken it from meand go, Yeah, this is how we do
it at all levels, not justleaders rethinking this stuff,
but I think it takes a littlemore responsible followership of
people. We've let leadership runthe show, and leaders run the
show. And instead of going like,Okay, I'm I'm a disciple, I'm an
extension of God's mission here,what do I do and the personal
(33:34):
responsibility and stewardshipof that? So I think a
stewardship mindset also,instead of a build it big kind
of thing, stewardship, from aking, global kingdom
perspective, we just have anabundance of wealth here in the
United States. And so, like theflow of money is so inequitable,
you know? And it was reallyenlightening for me to have a
(33:54):
student in one of my classes afew years ago who talked, we
talked about how much percent ofa typical western church budget
goes for the Sunday morningexperience or attractional
thing. And then how manymillions of people around the
world do not have access toGod's Word in their own
language? Seeing the greaterpicture, I think, is a piece of
it as well. Well,
Joshua Johnson (34:16):
I know as a missions leader, for a long
time, the American church givesabout 1% of 1% to global
missions to the unreached, whichis that where we were going and
what we were doing, so it's,it's a very small amount. And so
that's the the problem. And itcould get me, and I could get
(34:36):
people in those organizationsthat are going after the same
thing where there is actually asmaller slice of the pie.
There's not a lot of money goingthere, so we have to fight each
other to get the little bit ofmoney. And that's, yeah, just
it's just horrific. It is justnot the kingdom, and it's not
God. But it feels like we justhave to do that. So we. Could
(35:00):
get our little little amount sowe can go do this thing for God.
But yeah, and I think that'sprobably another mindset we have
to shift, is we're the ones thatare actually doing everything
for God and without us, thenhe's not gonna be able to do
anything.
Angie Ward (35:15):
Yeah, yeah. Get rid of that. Yeah, yeah. Like, this
idea of, like, you know, this,like, I've seen some church
congregational purposestatements or, you know, to make
God's name famous, like he needsus for that. Like, read, you
know about Elijah. He doesn'tneed us for that. You know,
Joshua Johnson (35:31):
I want to get a framework for people to think
about missional extensions ofwhat you're trying to advocate
for here, yeah, like practicallyon the ground. What do you think
that that is going to look likefor us in this new era of the
church? What does missionalextensions look like for us? So
(35:51):
that maybe there's a step or twothat we could take to help get
us there.
Angie Ward (35:56):
I think one is, even if the walls aren't crumbling
around you, to get outside yourwalls and look around and say,
who's next to me? I mean, andjust going, like, where has God
placed me? Who? Who else has Godplaced next to me? Whether it's
in a particular, you know, areaof interest or but, you know,
just so first of all, that, likerealizing the imperative of
(36:16):
this, and then committing tocollaboration for that, and then
just looking around. So it'slike, you know, I suggest, like,
congregation or a nonprofit inthe same area. I know of food
pantries or pregnancy centers orwhatever crisis center that are
right next to each other, butthey are from different
denominations or differentstreams, and so they don't talk
to each other, you know. Soreframe the whole thing, saying,
(36:38):
Okay, I am a missional extensionwhere I am. My congregation has,
you know, there's more this nearneighbor missionality to it, you
know, as like frost and Hirschwill talk about, and then
there's also this ends of theearth. But also we're, when we
think of that, it's like, well,we're the center, and then we go
to this end, end of the earth.
We're the center. We go this endof the earth thing, you know,
(36:58):
well, it's like, but there'sother people who are their
center is over there. So we'vejust got to get over this
exceptionalism, this Western,you know, some colonialism, you
know, just kind of thing andlittle steps. It's not like. And
I think we also, how do wepartner so that we reach the
whole world? It's like, Well,start with your neighborhood.
You know, I know global missionsleaders who don't know their
next door neighbors, and I knowseminary professors who are not
(37:22):
part of a local congregation,you know. And most of us, most
of the people in the Bible, inthe Scripture, are everyday
folks. They weren't all calledto go to the ends of the earth.
That was kind of a seconddecision that Ralph winter from
fuller talked about, you know.
And I think that lets most of usoff the hook. And so I think we
need to go not just Well, I'm aleader. What do I do? I think
(37:44):
everyone in our in ourcongregation, I think everyone
must be in a local community. Ithink there's something
spiritual that happens when wegather together and that. So I
think we've lost that as well.
So so get in a local community,not just the Lord has been
working on me lately. About ayear ago, I felt like Lord was
saying, as a leader, it's easyfor me to hide behind the
leadership shield. I've beenburned in church ministry. My
husband was a pastor, as apastor's wife all this. So the
(38:06):
Lord said just it's you need tonow it's time for you to get
back to not just commit tocommunity, but to submit to
community. We don't like thatwhole idea of submission. I
mean, it goes against WesternAmerican entrepreneurialism. You
know, so many things areembedded in there. And so to
humble ourselves and see whatthe Lord is doing and what other
(38:27):
great things and becoming thesupporting person, not always
the leading up out kind ofthing. Lot of it's hard work.
Joshua Johnson (38:36):
All of this is hard work. Well, right? Yeah,
well, it's, it's work, and itrequires formation discipleship.
It requires us to actually lookmore like Jesus and to follow
him instead of anything else inthe world. And, yeah, it's just,
it's just that daily walk withHim in community. And you know,
(38:58):
we could get there, but it'sgonna take some, good, solid
work. You know, if you say thatwe're we're in this inflection
point in history of the church,that there is a big shift that
we're living in the middle ofwhich it feels unmooring, and
it's, you know, not easy, butbecause we're in this inflection
point, if you look out at thelandscape of the church, what is
(39:20):
giving you hope for the churchto the moment. One thing
Angie Ward (39:23):
is giving me hope is that we can't keep doing it the
way we're always worth that's afrightening thing to a lot of
people. That to me, it's, Ithink it was frustrating
sometimes to try to bring changeto some pretty stagnant stuff.
And so it's like we're having tofind some new ways. And I'm just
seeing a lot of people returningto roots, which is great. I
mean, there's causing people toask questions. I'm seeing a lot
(39:44):
of different, you know,individuals and organizations or
groups, you know, and leadersstarting to ask some of these
questions and thinking justbigger picture than my
institution, my you know, thislittle our little poll. Lot of
ground. I just think the themustard seed way of the kingdom
(40:05):
we're seeing some of return tosome of those ways. You know,
there, there's just more andmore the conversation, you know,
if you and I had talked about,like, missional church, or, you
know, any of this type of stuff.
I mean, there's a lingo that cango with some of that too. But
like, more and more people cometo me at Denver Center, and
they're familiar with that kindof stuff, and they're going, you
know, what is this or or they'regoing, they're coming in and
(40:26):
saying, Something's not working,something's not right. And so
they're at a point where they'reripe for change and reevaluation
and growth. Sometimes, becauseit's forced, it's like, well, my
my whole thing closed down. Nowwhat I do, and others are
saying, Man, I'm seeing we'renot having to stop, we're not
collaborating. We're more andmore polarized, you know, and
(40:49):
and so they're seeing the needand can't just do status quo. So
to me, that's actually hopeful,because that means that opens up
portals for that work to happen.
Joshua Johnson (41:03):
So what hope do you have for your readers that
pick up beyond church andparachurch? What do you want
people? What's the outcome forthis book for you? Yeah, I
Angie Ward (41:11):
would. I want, first of all, I want people to fall in
love with the church like, youknow, congregation, but just
God's design and heart for thebody of Christ. Then to also
just be convinced like that weneed the whole church for the
whole world in this moment. Andthen to exam like, okay, so
what? And then, what does thatmean for me, in particular,
(41:33):
whatever your you know, localeand context and and just be a
mustard seed in that area, inyour wherever God has put you
blown you planted you for Ithink so those are big things.
But I just really want us tochampion. I'm kind of a champion
for the church to like we'vejust lost, lost who we are. It's
an identity thing. It's not justa belonging to it's, it really
(41:53):
is our identity which changeseverything. If
Joshua Johnson (41:56):
you could go back to your 21 year old self,
Angie, what advice would yougive Wow,
Angie Ward (42:02):
the same thing I'm wrestling with right now, or
continue to, because I'm a goodEnneagram one and all the
different things, like, itdoesn't all depend on you. Yeah,
right, exactly. Yeah, no, the itdoesn't all depend on you. So to
again, to the posture of trustand openness and humility and
sorry, 21 years self, there's alot of striving. So I think
(42:23):
there is for every 21 year old.
But hopefully I've mellowed alot more, you know, and so, but
it just doesn't all depend onme. And I think, you know, a lot
of things, the evangelicalculture, subculture I grew up
in, too, is like we've got tobe, even though victorious and
conquer for Jesus. It's all upto us to do all the work. And so
just increasing dependence on
Joshua Johnson (42:44):
the Lord, anything you've been reading or
watching lately, you couldrecommend, well, reading and
watching,
Angie Ward (42:49):
and then that I could recommend, yes, I'm
reading. Well, actually, ourpresident. We have a new
president at Denver seminary.
This is more of a leadership Benthing. He's actually so, so in
the reality of that, he'sleading an institution that has
not said, we're just going to bearound 510 years. So I'm I read
a kind of book on managingothers called good authority,
and about how to bring in therelational dynamics and like
those types of things. I'm alsoreading, our small group is
(43:11):
going through a book about,like, the use of technology in
our lives. And I think restlessdevices is really good. It talks
about how people need communion,not just community, you know,
and and the role of that. Andthen I'm reading a leadership
book called, kind of a businessbook called the competing
against luck. So I'm looking atmy right now, my little Kindle
(43:35):
thing. So I've been readingthose things some more stuff
about, like, how to be a nonanxious presence in changing
environments. Well,
Joshua Johnson (43:43):
how can people go out and get your book Beyond
church and para church, andwhere else would you like to
point people
Angie Ward (43:50):
to? Yeah, thanks.
Where to find the book? It'severywhere you buy fine. That's
fine. Booksellers. It's like allthe websites, Amazon. It's
published by University Press,IVP. I have several other books
about like a leadership,ministry leadership case study
book and a book about callingfor women ministry leaders. But
you can go to my website, AngieWard, phd.com, or find me on the
Denver seminary website. I workat Denver seminary as director
(44:13):
of our Doctor of Ministryprogram, so if anybody's
interested in that, I can talkto you about that as well. But
my overall calling is reallyjust to equip and encourage the
church through like ministryleaders and leadership
development, so you have to dothat through a variety of cool
outlets. Well,
Joshua Johnson (44:29):
Angie, thank you for this conversation. I really
enjoyed talking to you. Enjoyedgoing deep into where we are in
church history, that we're aninflection point, that we can
rethink what we've been doing,and we could see the Spirit of
God move in ways where we couldgather as the saints together,
(44:50):
and we could see the sacredspace that then we could start
to work together. We could,like, get rid of our walls, and
we could become missionalextensions wherever we are.
Yeah. And, yeah, the globalchurch, wherever we are, we
could work together, and wecould do it imagine, I know,
isn't that amazing? The kingdomis big and it's wide, and
(45:10):
there's room for all of us toplay, and God is with us, and
it's, it's amazing. So I lovedour conversation. Thank you so
much. Thank you. You
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