In this episode, I talk with Will Parker Anderson—writer, editor, and founder of The Writer’s Circle—about the tension we all feel between productivity and presence, business and ministry, hustle and holiness. Will brings clarity and honesty to the internal battle many creatives face: how do we create from a place of joy, not just ambition? How do we resist comparison, reclaim play, and keep our identity grounded—not in our platform—but in the God who delights in us? We dig into the realities of Christian publishing, the spiritual disciplines that sustain us, and the hidden dangers of remote work and quiet isolation. Whether you're a writer, an entrepreneur, or someone simply trying to live faithfully in a noisy world, this conversation is full of wisdom, vulnerability, and practical encouragement for staying rooted in what matters most.
Will Parker Anderson is a senior editor at WaterBrook and Multnomah, an imprint of Penguin Random House—the world’s largest publisher. He specializes in acquiring and editing Christian living, Bible teaching, spiritual formation, and faith-based inspirational nonfiction. Will has collaborated with authors like Rich Villodas, Josh Butler, Jon Tyson, Doug Wekenman, and YouTuber Ruslan KD, helping them shape compelling books that resonate with readers.
Beyond publishing, Will’s background includes fifteen years in pastoral ministry and nonprofit work, giving him a deep understanding of the spiritual and practical challenges writers face. His writing and editorial expertise extends to a range of media outlets, including The Chosen, The Gospel Coalition, Dwell Bible App, Preaching Today, and Relevant magazine.
Will holds a BA in journalism from Biola University and an MA in New Testament from Talbot School of Theology. A passionate teacher, he has taught biblical studies and theology at both the high school and college levels. Based in Southern California, Will spends his free time exploring the outdoors with his wife, Emily, and their three young children, which means he’s often running on caffeine and grace.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Will Parker Anderson (00:00):
As followers of Jesus. In this
(00:01):
world, if you're doing nothing,you're being pulled, you're
drifting. We think to do nothingis neutral, but actually to sit
still is to be moving in thedirection of culture requires us
to swim against the current. Andof course, God helps us with
that. He doesn't leave us tothat on our own. You Joshua,
Joshua Johnson (00:32):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ looked like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson, in
this episode, I talk with willParker Anderson, writer, editor
and founder of the writer'scircle, about the tension we all
feel between productivity andpresence, business and ministry,
(00:55):
hustle and holiness. Will bringsclarity and honesty to the
internal battle many creativesface. How do we create from a
place of joy, not just ambition?
How do we resist comparison,reclaim play and keep our
identity grounded, not in ourplatform, but in the God who
delights in us? We dig into therealities of Christian
publishing, the spiritualdisciplines that sustain us and
(01:17):
the hidden dangers of remotework and quiet isolation,
whether you're a writer, anentrepreneur or someone simply
trying to live faithfully in anoisy world, this conversation
is full of wisdom vulnerabilityand practical encouragement for
staying rooted in what mattersmost. So join us. Here is my
conversation with will ParkerAnderson will welcome to
(01:39):
shifting culture. Excited tohave you on. Thanks for joining
me. Yeah, Joshua, great to behere. I want to know, as we
start out, just as some sort ofan introduction to you, what
drives you, why? Why do youexist? What is your motivation
and your purpose? Wow, we're
Will Parker Anderson (01:59):
just we're diving into the deep end. They
are. We are, oh my goodness.
Well, I just had a conversationwith a friend about the idea of
calling, and he kind of blew mymind, because he had all these
categories, but to simplify, I'dsay, Yeah, I exist to bring my
Creator joy, and I do that in anumber of ways. As Americans in
modern life, we often focus onour vocation, which is really
(02:23):
important, but whatever we do tomake money, our identity tends
to be really tied up in that.
And as a book editor, it'stempting sometimes, because I've
discovered people think that'scool, and I can hide behind that
fact, but who I am, primarily,you know, is a child of God, and
(02:44):
I'm here to bring Him joy in allthat I do. So as a father of
three kids, as a husband, assomeone who has a sense of humor
and has friends and spends timewith them, also the work that I
do, the things that I create asa writer. So across the board,
(03:04):
that is always my goal as I'mwaking up in the morning is, how
can I bring God joy, and how canI partner with him, and not to
slip into this mundane mindsetwhere I'm just checking things
off a list, but really invitinghim in, reminding myself that he
is dwelling within me and he'swalking beside me, and that
(03:27):
really can transform everythingwe do, especially those tasks we
have to do day after day afterday that start to feel a little
bit rote, boring, exhausting. Sothat would be my short answer.
Joshua Johnson (03:42):
Your calling of who you are as someone that
wants to bring the Creator joy.
Have you seen in your life apull to something other than
that? So when you're working asa book editor or as a father or
friend, is something where areyou getting pulled into
different directions of maybemaking it more about you and
what you do, or striving to getsome sort of attention for
(04:06):
yourself. Where have you foundplaces where that goes off the
rails a little
Will Parker Anderson (04:13):
bit? Well, I think you nailed it already,
Joshua, because you werealluding to the idea of
performance and the idea that,first of all, God's gonna like
me more. The more that I do forhim, the more successful I am.
The bigger books I work on, thebigger my platform grows. We can
couch self promotion in Kingdomlanguage and start talking about
(04:38):
our accomplishments, whetherconsciously or subconsciously in
a way that we're actuallydefining how God looks at us,
how he feels about us by thethings that we do. And that's
really dangerous. So personally,I can just say, at the end of a
day, I can evaluate my worth inhis sight and. By how pure my
(05:01):
thoughts were, or how patient Iwas or wasn't with my kids, or
how much I served my wifeversus, you know, just thinking
about my own needs. And then,professionally, man, I'm in an
industry that really promotesplatform, and it's a
prerequisite, right? If you wantto publish a book, you've got to
have a following. You probablyare on social media, you're
(05:23):
doing things like this, evenwhen you're on a podcast. And I
see that drive in the industryof writers that are just really
working hard to be noticed andto be heard, and many times
successfully. And so that'sprobably the biggest one, I
mean, to get vulnerable eitherlast night or early this
(05:43):
morning. I don't remember, but Iwas thinking about some of my
own personal goals, with myprofessional work, with the
business that I run, and I was alittle bit down, discouraged and
drawn to the few negative thingsthat maybe aren't growing or
trending, as I hope they were,and just ignoring this wealth of
(06:05):
other blessings and gifts in mylife. And so you asked where you
pulled I think that's theperfect word. I think I like the
name of your show, shiftingculture. I often think of our
culture as a current in theocean, because when you go into
the ocean, you don't realizeyou're moving slowly drifting
(06:26):
away. And it's not until youlook back at your beach towel or
your whatever you got set up onthe sand that you realize, oh my
goodness, I've drifted 100yards, and I didn't even
recognize it. And so asfollowers of Jesus, in this
world, if you're doing nothing,you're being pulled, you're
(06:47):
drifting, we think to do nothingis neutral, but actually to sit
still is to be moving in thedirection of culture requires us
to swim against the current. Andof course, God helps us with
that. He doesn't leave us tothat on our own. But anyways,
yeah, I'd say performance is ahuge one a comparison. Those are
(07:08):
all things that are continuallypulling and I would add one more
isolation, I think, theloneliness of modern remote
work, which is what I do, andI'm sure a lot of your listeners
can relate with this is you canjust sit with a laptop and get
everything done that you need toand forget that it's a gift to
(07:29):
sit with people. You know, mywife and I were just processing
this. When it starts to feellike an inconvenience to see
people or to chat with yourneighbors, that's a sign, I
think, that you're starting todrift in the current. And Justin
Whitmore early, who's one of myfavorite writers, he wrote a
book called made for people, andhe has this great line where he
(07:50):
says the goal of modern Americanlife is to become busier,
wealthier people who used tohave friends. And that line has
stuck with me. I mean, as youcan see, I just quoted it. It's
like, man, we get so caught upin chasing more stuff, and we
(08:10):
feel more accomplished and maybeeven more acceptable, in God's
sight, when we're busy, whenwe're running around like,
surely the frenetic activitymust mean that we're doing
things right, but it's just notthe case. So I resonated
Joshua Johnson (08:24):
with almost everything that you said. It is
something that I struggle withas well, especially now working
remotely, without a lot ofpeople around constantly and
trying to say, hey, there's somany good things that are
happening, but focusing on thethings that aren't growing, that
aren't working. One of thethings that I want to know is so
(08:46):
as a as a book editor, somebodyin in Christian publishing, as
you're looking at like whatyou're working on, or even as a
wider whole, what we're startingto publish. One of the things
you talked about was onlyplatform we need followers. The
The goal is to, is to sellsomething and make money. But
(09:07):
the goal also, I think, inChristian publishing, should be
to to shape what we're we'rethinking how we're moving, how
we're embodying Jesus. What doesit look like to be faithful
within the culture? And sosometimes it feels like as we're
moving towards wanting to selland make a lot of money, maybe
(09:27):
we're not asking the rightquestions, or maybe we're not
moving into a direction where,hey, the culture actually needs
something right now, they maynot actually accept it, so I may
not make money, but is it worthpublishing? So how do you
navigate those aspects ofknowing what is worth and saying
(09:48):
we need to make money, but wealso need to say something
worthwhile?
Will Parker Anderson (09:52):
Yeah, wow.
Joshua, what a loaded question,and a great one as well. Yeah,
that's a tension that we live inall the time. Time, I would
liken it to sort of thepolarized errors of prosperity
theology and poverty theology.
So prosperity theology says,Hey, God just wants you to get
rich. So you know, if you givehe's gonna make you a
(10:14):
millionaire. Of course, I'm thisis very reductionistic. Poverty
theology, on the other hand,says, hey, you know what God
wants you to financially suffer,because that is what holiness
looks like, and it's wrong tohave nice things. There are
grains of truth in both of thoseviews, but they're both not the
(10:35):
whole truth. In fact, they'retwisted and in the same way
people sometimes come topublishing with these extreme
views, they'll either say, hey,publishing is a business, and
they got to keep the lights on,and so we can't be sentimental
about this, like you have totake on authors that have a
realistic chance of returningyour investment. Because for
(10:57):
those that don't know,publishers take absorb all the
risk for an author, they pay theauthor. They don't get any of
that money recouped unless thebook does well. And spoiler
alert, most books do not dowell. I don't know the exact
number. It's something like 80%of books do not earn back their
advance. So I think to be fair,if people can put themselves in
(11:20):
the shoes of a publisher, like,imagine running a business where
80% of your clients, you're justshelling out money to them with
no return. So to demonizepublishers and to and to play
the God card, and like the inappeal to the kingdom mindset is
partially right on the otherside, yeah, I think people say
so. If the one side ispublishing is a business, we
(11:42):
should just think monetarily.
The other areas to say, like,no, publishing is just a
ministry. And I'm using thatlanguage carefully, you know,
just a ministry, because I dobelieve publishing is a
ministry, but that's not all itis. And so some would say, hey,
let's not worry about platformat all, and let's just focus on
the content, and let's findpeople of character and
(12:04):
conviction, and let's justpublish them. Well, the problem
with that is there's a lot ofproblems with that. One is a lot
of people with big platformshave conviction and character,
so it's a false dichotomy. Andso what I would say is we try to
the best of our ability, andwe're imperfect at this, but we
are looking for both authorsthat have large platforms,
(12:26):
because as we take risks as apublisher, we want to know that
there's at least a chance thatwe could make our money back.
But then also, we take risksquite often on authors who do
not have a huge platform, butwhat we see is a message and
character and sort of atimeliness to whatever they're
(12:49):
writing about that we're like,Yes, this is something that the
people of God will benefit from.
And I say people of God becauseI'm in Christian publishing,
right? And so it really is aboth. And you know, we have a
few authors that their bookshave maybe hit the New York
Times bestseller list or, youknow, another award, have won
(13:11):
other awards, and those bookstruly float us. I mean, they
they pay the bills, and we'revery grateful for them. And then
we have other authors who writebeautiful, thoughtful,
challenging books that reallyedify and enrich and they don't
sell as much. And so we don'tprioritize one over the other.
(13:34):
We just recognize God has calledus to both. And I think one of
the hardest things about beingin Christian publishing is that
tension is never fullyalleviated between what is
business and what is ministry.
They are so enmeshed bynecessity that we just have to
sit in that tension. Because theminute you try to alleviate it
(13:56):
and just become a business, oron the flip side, just become a
ministry we're not operating, Iwould say, in the most helpful
way. And so it's not an easyanswer, but hopefully that sheds
a little light on how weevaluate these things, and we
actually try to break it downinto Okay, how many authors with
small platforms can we takerisks on? And that helps us
(14:19):
prioritize and choose themcarefully. And then, on the flip
side, how many big fish, so tospeak, can we pursue this year
realistically and we really areintentional about trying to
welcome in both authors withplatforms and those who are
still trying to build them.
Joshua Johnson (14:38):
I think I have a there's a lot of listeners that
they're, they have a businessand but they want to see some
sort of a kingdom impact. Theywant to actually see some
ministry in it. So they view itboth as business and ministry,
and they're riding that tensionof both. And I think this is a
lot of us that are, are tryingto make a living in. Have
(15:01):
something where we could takecare of our families, yeah. How
do we ride that tension? Like,what does it look like,
faithfully and like daily like,what are we looking for in our
daily walk to ride the tensionbetween business and
Will Parker Anderson (15:16):
ministry?
Yeah, you know, businesses areorganic living organisms, and so
they're always changing, andnext month, you could be in a
totally different season withdifferent revenue, different
temptations, differentchallenges. So I think it's
similar to the entirety of theChristian life that we're always
having to evaluate. We're alwayshaving to take what we're doing
(15:39):
and submit it to God and askhim, Hey, show me my heart. Show
me things that I can't see. Ithink the regular disciplines of
the Christian life are theanswer to this question. So one
would be, you know, personalreflection and prayer before
God. Another would be community,having people around you that
are willing to speak candidly,sometimes very directly, in
(16:04):
saying, Hey, I think you'redrifting here, or that doesn't
sound like you, or that doesn'tsound like what I know of your
heart, or God's heart, andhaving that board of directors
in our lives that can, you know,just be super. Keep it 100 with
us. The other thing is auditingwhat voices are in your life and
(16:25):
who you are welcoming in. AndI'm thinking now of podcasts,
business gurus, coaches, evenpreachers like who is nourishing
your soul and forming yourworldview. I just worked with a
writer who built a seven figurebusiness and was working like 10
hours a week. Had a team.
(16:47):
Everything was automated, andthen God said to her, shut it
down. I'm not in this so she didimmediately. She amazing. I
mean, she was obedient, caughther off guard, pulled the rug
out from under her. It meant animmediate loss of around 500,000
in revenue a year. It meantlaying off like 10 people. It
(17:10):
was very painful, but I lovethat story, because she's
happier, now, healthier,physically, emotionally,
spiritually, she is hasn'tabandoned business, but she's
slowly rebuilding. But her storyis that she paid 1000s of
dollars to be in these specialmasterminds, only for
millionaires, and to go to theseChristian influencer events and
(17:34):
hire different coaches, and whatshe realized is that she had
slowly absorbed some reallytoxic ideas, these lies that
were again couched in ministryChristianese, but in reality,
were more tied to some new agethinking and some other
ideologies that she eventuallyrecognized to be really harmful
(17:58):
for her own soul. And so that'san extreme example. And like the
rich young ruler, where Jesussays, sell everything. I don't
know that God would say toeveryone, Hey, shut down the
business and just stop right ina way that's not even this
author's story, because she'sstill building a business. It
just looks very different. Butanyways, long story short, I
(18:21):
think vigilance, alertness, asensitivity to God's Spirit,
accountability to God's people,and a real discernment about
whose voices are shaping yourdaily life, including your
business. All of those are theingredients. It's nothing new in
the Christian life, but it'sit's taking very seriously that
(18:46):
Jesus spoke more about moneythan he spoke about sex, about
hell, about a lot of otherthings. And so when it comes to
business, making money is notinherently wrong, but it is
definitely playing with fire.
Some may disagree with that, butI'm just convinced we need to
know the idols of ourenvironment and in America,
(19:06):
success, hustle, financialstability are all things that we
can start to settle into thatatrophy our awareness of God's
leading and we become drones whohave theological answers for why
we're doing what we're doing,but maybe our hearts have become
deadened and numb to what Godwould really invite us to. And
(19:29):
that sounds so foreboding andscary, but actually it's a joy
as I worked with that sameauthor, and her life is so much
better than when she was runningthat six figure business or
seven figure business like themillion dollar mark that didn't
satisfy her. It's living inclose communion with God and
(19:52):
being able to hit the pillow atnight knowing that you are in
his will and. And that he's yourprovider, and he's got you, and
that you're willing to say nomaybe to certain things. It
could be revenue or it couldjust be the number of hours you
work, I don't know, but man,that is, that's the sweet spot,
that's where God calls us tolive. And it's not an easy life,
(20:14):
but it's a really fulfillinglife. And so the money's not
gonna save you. It's not goingto make your life as good as you
think it is. And I preach thatto myself all the time,
Joshua Johnson (20:27):
that's good. So one of the things that you said
in the middle of that is thatwhat grounds us in the middle of
this tension between businessand ministry and this tension, I
think, of productivity and justbeing in the will of God and the
American culture of hustle. Andyou know, success is our
spiritual disciplines. Whatspiritual disciplines have
(20:50):
helped you? What does it looklike in your life? What? What
grounds you in your relationshipwith God?
Will Parker Anderson (20:57):
Thanks for that question. Joshua, I It's
funny because I know what myanswers are, but I just want to
lead with this. You know, Idon't have it all figured out,
and I think every day is just astruggle to live a balanced life
and to walk closely with Jesus.
And, you know, like everyoneelse, probably listening, when I
(21:19):
come to Scripture, I try to readScripture daily. I'm not always
in the mood. I'm not alwayswalking away like, Oh, that was
the best, you know, I got somuch from that. It's just simple
daily obedience. And so there'sno silver bullet to
sanctification. It is what itis, but it's just a willingness
(21:39):
to plod along and to keep takingsteps, I will say, because we've
been talking so much aboutbusiness, like, personally, it's
easy for me to shut off from myday job as a full time editor.
Like, at the end of Friday,going into the weekend, I close
my laptop and I'm like, I'm donewith that until Monday, but
(22:00):
because I also run somethingcalled the writer's circle,
which is a community for writerswho are looking to get
published, that's always justbuzzing in my mind, and it's
hard to turn that off. That'slike, oh, I have 10 things I
need to do for my business, buttoday is Saturday, and my
highest priority is being withmy kids and resting. And so some
(22:20):
of the disciplines that havehelped me, one is just digital
disconnection, and what thatlooks like for me is on Sundays,
I am not checking any socialmedia. I'm not working on the
business at all. I actually, Ihave three young kids, and so
when they take their nap, I takethat opportunity. My wife
(22:43):
graciously allows me to driveabout 2030, minutes out of
Orange County, California, whereI live, into this nature
preserve, where there's a creekthat's flowing and these
beautiful oak trees, and thathas become my place where I
swear as I pull in and park, mysoul just immediately starts to
(23:04):
breathe in a different way, andI just use that time to journal,
walk, pray, you know, read, dowhatever. So that's a big one. I
think it would be like ifsomeone never slept. You know,
as tired and worn down as youwould be if we don't detox ever
from our phones and our work andbeing on screens or whatever
(23:29):
that looks like for yourlisteners, your soul is going to
just get run down and exhausted.
The difference is, with ourphysical bodies, we literally
can't keep living if we don'tsleep with our souls. We can
technically still keep going andfunctioning. We can stuff it and
(23:50):
plaster over it with busyness,but eventually it's gonna get us
and so yeah, I've just foundthat you gotta let your soul
rest, and not just rest, butabsorb nutrients and become
stronger. And I'm just remindedof how God commanded His people
to let the land rest every sevenyears. I was just at a farm last
(24:14):
summer on the central coast ofCalifornia where they actually
do this, and they were giving usa tour of all their crops, and
then they paused in this areathat was just sort of a tilled
field, but nothing was growing.
And they're like, you know, welet the land rest, and here's
why, and here's all thenutrients it absorbs from the
rain and the runoff. And theyhad all this great information
to share, and that is our soulsand a weekly rhythm, right?
(24:35):
God's wisdom is every seventhday you got to give yourself
that Sabbath. And so anyways,that's a huge one for me,
another unexpected one, becauseI could talk about scripture,
prayer, community, church,fasting, a number of things, but
one that is often overlooked isplay. I would say play is a
spiritual rhythm. God's heart isone of joy. Jesus Himself said.
(24:58):
I want your joy to beoverflowing, and not as the
world gives you peace or joy,but in a more robust way, my
spirit wants to overflow in you.
And I just I'm guilty. I takemyself too seriously. I get too
intense about things, and it isserious. The work that God calls
(25:23):
us to. It's eternal work. It'smeaningful work. It's work that
we pour ourselves out for, wesweat for, we bleed for. But at
the same time, what I've noticedback to your original question
about where do you get pulled inunhealthy directions? I think I
if I'm not careful, start tobelieve I don't have time to
laugh, I don't have time to havefun, I don't have time to be
(25:46):
with friends and to do thingssimply for the joy of doing
them. That is such a beautifulspiritual rhythm, one that
actually came out in a survey topastors. They were trying to
figure out what makes somepastors stay for decades and to
finish in that role, versusthose that bail? And one of the
(26:09):
top answers was the pastors withthe most longevity, despite the
emotional toll of the role andeverything that comes with it,
is their ability to play thosethat make space to play, to
pursue hobbies, to carve outtime for vacations. I can't tell
you, because I was a pastor forover a decade. How many pastors
(26:31):
feel guilty for taking vacationsand therefore just don't or they
take vacations, but they're notreally off. Man, that takes a
toll on your soul, and so Iwould say play is a hugely
important spiritual rhythm thatI'm trying to reclaim. And with
young kids, it's hard, but it'ssuper important for my own soul.
(26:52):
And so I'm trying to get back tomore of that.
Joshua Johnson (26:56):
So if you're talking to writers and you're
editing people, there's a fewthings right there with play. If
you're trying, you your purposeis to bring joy to your Creator.
You're made in the image of thecreator. You're a creative
being. This is who you are. Thisis all of us. We're all creative
beings made in the image of acreator. And so what is then the
(27:18):
role for you of writing ascreativity and play, and then
writing as as productivity andjob.
Will Parker Anderson (27:27):
Yeah, wow.
I think they're intertwined. Youknow, I think of the famous
Chariots of Fire quote that Ericlittle says, you know, he's an
Olympic runner, and he says,When I run, I feel God's
pleasure, and you can't find amore strenuous painful activity
than an Olympic runner. Oh mygosh, it's like pure mental and
physical strain. And yet, as hetrained, you know, chalk it up
(27:52):
to endorphins or the Spirit ofGod in Him, or whatever you want
to do, and probably both,because God created our
biological bodies and our souls.
But as we do the work ofwriting, it's a love hate. It's
like Man, this is toil, and wehit walls or we procrastinate.
(28:14):
We put off our work, we getreally excited about ideas, only
to find others aren't as excitedabout them, and that's the
reality of the work, right, ofwriting. But in the same way
that pastors who go the longhaul have learned to play, I
would say the writers who makeit are those that truly just
love to write. They love thework itself, the creativity of
(28:39):
it, the the ideating, therewrites, the massaging
paragraphs until they arrive attheir intended, you know,
destination. And so I talkedwith a writer once on my
podcast, and he had tried, Ithink it was eight years. He
kept submitting articles, justdogmatically, was trying to get
(29:02):
published at a particularorganization's, you know,
website, publication, just keptbeing told, No, no, no, until
finally he got somethingpublished. And I was like,
You're telling me that yousubmitted dozens of articles
over basically a decade. Whatkept you going. Why did you like
at a certain point, your pridejust says, Okay, I can't take
(29:25):
any more rejection. And hisanswer was simple and profound.
He said, Oh, I did it because Ijust love to write. Like even
though there was rejectionthere, he loved his craft so
much, and he used thoserejections to get better and
better and better and to figureout how publishing works and how
(29:47):
to navigate those conversationswith editors. And he learned
through failure to the pointthat now he's publishing his
second or third book, dozens ofarticles out there in the world
and so but it all really does goback. To that intermingling of
joy and toil. Anything worthdoing is going to be hard, and
(30:08):
that's the work side, butanything worth doing is going to
reward you along the way, maybenot in the public recognition
way that you would hope couldbe. But for most writers that I
speak to I just point them backin. A lot of them probably roll
their eyes, and they're like,all right, tell me. Tell me what
I really want to know, which ishow to get published. But it's
(30:29):
not a pat answer or a platitudeto say, no. It's about the love
for writing. Like publishing abook will not make you love
writing, but if you lovewriting, it may eventually help
you publish a book, and thatorder is everything, because if
you love writing, it doesn'tmatter ultimately, whether a
(30:49):
couple friends read it or 50,000people buy your published
version of it, if you reallylove to write, God is going to
use those words in profound waysand some of the most impactful
pieces of writing that I've everread. One came from my mom as
she was struggling with cancer,and she wrote this little note
(31:11):
while in the hospital and someof her final hours. Those few
words are some of the mostbeautiful, some of those
beautiful writing I've everseen. Another was a note that
this old guy named Jerry wroteto me when I was in sixth grade.
He read something I wrote, andhe saw this a gift in me, and he
decided to write me a note aboutit, and that note has stayed
(31:37):
with me my entire life. And sohe would get so preoccupied with
getting published that I thinkwe forget there are some smaller
and really profound ways thatGod wants to use your writing
outside of the whole publishingindustry.
Joshua Johnson (31:52):
So how do we stay connected to our
creativity, whether it's writingor whatever creative endeavor
that we're called to do whenwe're getting a lot of nos and
rejections from the world. Buthow do we how do we continue in
it? Like, if this is what doesfaithfulness look like in the
midst
Will Parker Anderson (32:11):
of that?
Yeah, I think we can bestrategic about this actually,
because when we have loftygoals, like I'm going to land a
book deal, then anything that'snot that feels like a loss and
feels like rejection and canturn us against ourselves in
discouragement. And so Iencourage writers to set
themselves up for smaller winsalong the way, because it's very
(32:35):
rewarding to put your writingout there, even if it's to a
small group of people, but toreceive positive feedback and to
to hear someone say, Wow, thatresonated with me, or that
helped me, or I felt seen. I'dnever thought about it that way.
When we start to get thatfeedback, it kind of lights and
(32:56):
relights that fire and keeps usgoing. And so I think we can set
ourselves up to experience thatand to resist the temptation to
sort of hoard our writing toourselves, thinking that, okay,
one day I'm going to land thebook deal, then I'm going to
show my writing to the worldinstead of that, a maxim that I
(33:19):
often say is practice in public.
So publish on sub stack, startan email newsletter, start
handwriting one to two notes aweek to people. Write a short
instead of writing a full 50,000word book, write 1000 word short
(33:41):
story and email it to 10 friendsand family members, invite a
friend to coffee and ask them toread it beforehand so that you
can come and talk about ittogether. The secret is to share
your writing and to write often.
And so we get idealistic, and wethink, Okay, I'm going to show
my work when I get my big break,and instead, you got to create
(34:01):
little breaks for yourself. Yougot to create little
opportunities, and that's alsohow you grow, by the way. So
both you'll be sharpened becauseyou'll receive some some
pushbacks or some critiques, butyou'll also be encouraged, and
you'll lose that fear of puttingyour material out there, it's
going to lose its sting likeit's anticipation is far worse,
(34:23):
right than the actual act ofdoing something. So if you're
just waiting and waiting andwaiting for to finally show your
work to people, and that's goingto torture you. So I say, get it
out there now and be okay withit not being your best work at
times, and be okay with lookingback on what you wrote a year
(34:44):
ago and thinking, wow, I coulddo a lot better now. And I
experienced that all the time,and I have learned not to resent
Will's writing from a year ago,but to pay it its dues, because
without that mediocre writing.
Then I couldn't write myslightly less mediocre stuff now
(35:04):
and and God is teaching me. I'mlearning from others. And
anyways, so that that would bemy main advice, is practice in
public. Just start putting stuffout there in whatever way you
can.
Joshua Johnson (35:18):
I think that's that's helpful. It's been
helpful for for me, as I ampursuing some writing is so I've
been, I've been writing a oneman stage show, and, wow, I have
a collaborator in it. Sofilmmaker, screenwriter that's
working with me, and that'sreally helpful is one like,
(35:38):
there's instant feedback fromone other person, and then as we
share it widely, I'm having myfirst table read of it next
week, and I'm really excitedabout it's exciting, what it
looks like with an audience,with some people, and then
saying what doesn't work, whatis bad, what what's not helpful.
And that feedback is really,really key, and that's gonna
(36:02):
help grow me as a writer,knowing that, hey, I I'm
probably harder on myself thanthan other people, right? Like I
so that's the question. I thinkmaybe for me as you know, I'm
really self critical. I want youknow, I know what really good
writing is, and I know that Idon't live up to it. And so one
(36:26):
of the things that I think anycreative would would think about
is, hey, I don't have it in meto get to that level. So why
even try? Why do it? What advicedo you give to people where they
are self critical and they knowthat they don't measure up yet,
but with practice, maybe theycould get, you know, one or two
(36:49):
sentences that actually soundreally good.
Will Parker Anderson (36:52):
Yeah.
Well, Joshua, I love that veryrealistic goal of one or two
sentences. I spoke with a writerrecently who said my goal every
time I sit down to write,whether it's a couple hours or
however long, is to just get onegood sentence. And real writers
know that is easier said thandone, and so some people are
like, I'm gonna get 5000 wordsout. That's great. And maybe
(37:15):
that's their way of getting thatone good sentence, right? You
have to make 100 versions ofsomething and maybe 99 mediocre
or bad versions of something toget one good thing. I would say,
no matter what you do in life,you can look around and find
people who are better. And so Ithink comparison is a really,
(37:38):
really slippery slope. You haveto be really careful, you know,
rather than looking at a goodwriter and saying, Oh, I wish I
was that good, I think you canlook and find one thing that you
admire about their writing andthen try to emulate that so to
look at them as a tutor, notyour competition. So actually,
(37:59):
yesterday I found this quotefrom James clear that I think
speaks to this. So I'll justread it real quick. He wrote
this quote to improve, comparelittle things, and then he lists
marketing strategies, exercisetechniques, writing tactics.
Then he says, To be miserable.
(38:19):
Compare big things, career path,marriage, net worth. And then
here's the clincher. He says,Comparison is the thief of joy
when applied broadly, butcomparison is the teacher of
skills when applied narrowly.
And I love that. So if you lookat a really good writer and
you're like, oh my gosh, theywrote this amazing novel. Look
(38:40):
at their book signings. There'sa line around the block. Look at
their platform. Look at theadvances they get. That is
comparing broadly, and you'rejust gonna drown in despair. But
if you just say, okay, thatwriter, their dialog is so good
and realistic and feels likeit's living and breathing. Why
(39:01):
is that? And then you go and youanalyze that. That's the kind of
thing that you can really learn,learn from. Fact, I was reading
this great piece on dialog, andone of their pieces of advice
was, just use the word said.
Dial back your adjectives. Don'tsay, you know they they said
(39:22):
vigorously or like and then theypointed to all these masters of
the craft who it's like thewords themselves are what bring
dialog to life. It's not how youdescribe the dialog, like you
just need the word said. Now, ofcourse, good writers do use
adjectives and adverbs anddifferent things. So I'm not
(39:43):
saying never to use them, butit's stuff like that, like very
specific and suddenly, with thatsubtle shift, you know, as I'm
writing dialog now, I justthink, like, Okay, I don't even
have to worry about adjective. Ijust or, you know, special fancy
verbs. I can just say. Said, butit's what these characters are
(40:03):
saying that really matters. Andhow can I make this as realistic
and compelling as possiblethat's comparing narrowly? You
know, I'm not going to Steinbeckthinking, how can I be better
than him at describing aconversation that'll never that
day is never gonna come. Butwhat I can do is look at the
simplicity of his verbs and thesimplicity of the grammar around
(40:29):
his dialog, and then to reallyhone in on how he is able to use
colloquialisms and short littlephrases that reflect real human
interaction, and suddenly,instead of despairing, I'm
growing
Joshua Johnson (40:46):
fantastic. I think that's so important in
comparing, you know, the smallthings be a teacher, comparing
the big things and makingmiserable. That's such a such a
helpful thing for us. Man, welldone pulling that quote. That
was
Will Parker Anderson (41:01):
great.
Well, thank you to James clear,yeah, I don't know how he does
it. Every week he drops somegold and, my goodness, I don't
know if he has a team that doesit. I think he writes all his
content. But yeah, thank you,James, wherever you are out
there.
Joshua Johnson (41:16):
So as you're working with writer circle, and
you're working with a lot ofriders, where do you where's the
majority of people getting stuckin the writing like, what are
some of the common pain pointsthat you find?
Will Parker Anderson (41:29):
It's a great question. Two come to
mind, and I'll label them aninternal hurdle and an external
hurdle. The internal one isplain and simple, imposter
syndrome. So I was leading aretreat for writers about
exactly a year ago, actually,and the room was, it was a small
group of maybe 15 that it wasreally high capacity leaders in
(41:53):
the room that I had personallyinvited people I really respect
that I really just want them torelease their thoughts into the
world. So I'm here to help themand coach them, but they're
brilliant. And what surprised meis, as the retreat got started,
one by one, different, peoplestarted to confide in me. I
don't know if I belong here or Ifeel really nervous about this.
(42:15):
As great thinkers andcommunicators, they still had
all this hesitation when it cameto writing and publishing, and
think that's instructive for us,is that the greatest enemy is
not some big publisher out thereor some industry gatekeeper.
It's our own self doubt. And asChristians, we have incredible
(42:36):
resources, both in our identityin Christ, as well as the safety
of community and unconditionallove that is not tied to what
we've accomplished or ourstatus. Now as humans, we mess
up. We start to overvalue thosethings, even in the body of
(42:56):
Christ. But again, we selfcorrect one another in love, and
we do our best. And I would saythe church is where I cut my
teeth creatively, as a musician,as a writer. I told you about
that note, that kind elderly mansent me. The church is an
incredible incubator forcreatives, or it can be, I
(43:18):
think, when it's functioning inits healthiest form. So that's
the internal hurdle impostersyndrome, that just this nagging
sense that we're not good enoughat any moment. You know, as
you're approaching your tableread Joshua, like, for you,
like, it's just those thoughtsof, like, what if I read this
out loud and it sounds stupid?
Or people are like, Ah, it'sokay, but I don't know. It's
(43:41):
those types of thoughts. I havethem, you have them. And
anyways, the external hurdle is,I think what we were talking
about before, and this isspecific to those that really
want to get publishedtraditionally, it's the platform
thing. It's the fact that theindustry has shifted in a way to
(44:01):
favor those that have garnered alot of followers, and that is a
nut that many of us struggle tocrack, but that's very specific
to wanting to get published,right? So I think both of those
I meet writers who they'vetalked and talked and talked
about this book they're gonnawrite, but the self doubt has
(44:22):
paralyzed them. And then I meetsome real, driven people who
might, quite honestlyoverestimate their writing
ability, but I love theirtenacity and zeal, and they're
just going for it, and they'recold emailing publishers, and
they've written 100,000 wordmanuscripts, and they're like,
Who wants this? Let's go. Let'sdo this. But they just have not
(44:43):
developed and gathered afollowing that publishers are
expecting. So you know, thoseare two very real hurdles.
Joshua Johnson (44:55):
So if you could talk to to Christian writers
specifically. Like people thatactually want to put words out
in the world that maybe shapesome some thinking and some
thoughts and to help people.
What would your advice toChristian writers be? What would
you say to Christian writers?
Will Parker Anderson (45:13):
Yeah, I'm very, very passionate about
helping writers who also loveJesus navigate this journey and
so quick, shameless plug, Istarted something called the
writer's circle, which is apodcast and a newsletter. And if
people go towriterscircle.co.co, they can
(45:34):
sign up for my newsletter. Buthere's the vision behind it that
I think answers your question.
If I could say something toother Christian writers, it
would be we need each other, andit's, I call it writer's circle,
because publishing often feelsto those on the outside like
it's this elite inner circlethat only the cool kids get to
join. You know that you have todo something impressive to be
(45:56):
welcomed into the ranks and topublish your work. And as an
editor, I do work with a lot ofauthors who have, quote,
unquote, arrived in terms oftheir name recognition. They've
gathered people around theirthoughts and ideas. But writer
circle is to say, Okay, this isnot who's in, who's out. Let's
erase those lines and let'sactually gather in a circle and
(46:20):
have conversations and shareknowledge and be really generous
with what it's like on theinside of publishing, and for
those really skilled writers tocircle up and share what you
know with one another. And sothat's what I do on the writer
circle podcast, is I just, Iinvite in literary agents,
(46:41):
editors, well known Christianauthors, newbie Christian
authors who are just startingout, and just document their
journey in real time. And all ofthat is just meant to drip feed
encouragement into the lives ofthose writers. And same thing
with the newsletter is I just Ishare what I'm learning, and
(47:02):
little insider tips that I knoware going to help move writers
forward, and so do not try to doit alone. Is the takeaway. Like
you need others around you, bothfor wisdom and insight, for
encouragement, for feedback andsharpening and so, yeah, don't.
Don't do it alone, just like anypart of our lives, as followers
(47:26):
of Jesus are meant to be livedin community. The same is true
as a writer. Don't go it aloneand recognize again, that the
the current of our culture willnaturally isolate you, will pull
you away in front of yourlaptop, and will not push you to
have community. So that'ssomething that you can seek out
(47:52):
on your own and in my own smallway, I think the writer's circle
provides that, at least in termsof listening in on conversations
and reading developmentalcontent that will encourage and
nourish your soul and yourcraft. But yeah, find your
people.
Joshua Johnson (48:11):
That's great. A couple quick questions here at
the end. Will one, if you goback to your 21 year old self,
what advice would you give? Oh,
Will Parker Anderson (48:19):
wow. Well, first I would ask, Why are you
such a fool? No, just kidding,my 21 year old self, yeah, I'm
just thinking back, where was I?
Okay? So I would have been, Ithink, a junior or senior in
college. One I would have graceon that guy, because I think I
was still discerning what God'sdirection for my life was,
right. I was coming to the endof a journalism degree. I guess
(48:42):
one thing I would say is cherishthis season of life, especially
when it comes to community. I'mapproaching middle age here, so
a lot of people experience this,particularly men, but we just
find ourselves in a season oflife that's high in
responsibility and lacking incommunity. And the loneliness
epidemic of modern life is welldocumented, but an interesting
(49:07):
nuance to it is that men inparticular are very lonely and
struggle to initiate friendshipsand to maintain those rhythms.
So thinking back on my 21 yearold self, I was surrounded by
friends and really immersed ingood community, just a very
different season of life. And soI think just savoring that and
(49:31):
appreciating that, maybe theother thing I would do is, and I
don't know, yeah, because youhave to learn lessons over time,
but I think my love for buildingand creating things, I think I
would take that more seriously,and maybe have started some
(49:51):
things earlier, even with mywriting, of investing more in my
craft. So. Those would be maybea few things I'd say. But
overall, I know that God, in Hiswisdom and His timing, has led
me on a path that's quiteintentional, and I sort of
accept what my early 20s wereand what I needed to learn in
(50:13):
those seasons. But anyways, whata great question
Joshua Johnson (50:19):
that's helpful.
I mean to me, yes, I would like,hey, savor that time. I mean, I
look back and like, I didn'thave the greatest college
experience. I had actually apretty bad college experience.
Yeah, there are aspects of itthat are like, I need to savor
that community, the peoplearound me. Yeah, so good. That's
helpful for a lot of people.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately you could
(50:41):
recommend,
Will Parker Anderson (50:42):
oh, wow, yeah, reading or watching? Yeah?
Well, I'm always reading, sothat's never a shortage of
books. I would say I've beenreading a series that's called
every moment holy. Some of yourlisteners may know what that is,
but it's a three volume workthat is essentially liturgies
for everyday moments of life. SoI actually have a copy here, and
(51:09):
I'm always looking to remindmyself that God is present with
me. And why I love this book, isit it turns mundane moments into
holy moments. And so here's asampling of like the types of
there's these little prayers,almost poetic little prayers.
And so some of them are aliturgy for the preparation of a
(51:31):
meal, for doing laundry, forfirst responders, a liturgy
before taking the stage for themorning of a yard sale, before
beginning a book for gardening,for consuming media like it's
such a brilliant series, andit's really beautifully written
as well. So the writing is sogood. So yeah, I would encourage
(51:56):
readers to check that out, andthere's a couple in there
specifically for creatives andwriters. So no matter what you
do, there's one that I thinkit's volume three is aimed at
the vocations we have in thework that we do, and that's
probably a good place to start.
Joshua Johnson (52:15):
Well, my wife has probably bought Volume Two
for people more than anything.
And so she's she used it a lotas we were processing and
walking with her mother as shewas dying. So it's a liturgy for
death and dying. And it waspretty powerful, as reading over
these liturgies through thatprocess was really, really good
(52:38):
and helpful. So every momentholy is fantastic series. It's
really good. So you could go towriter circle.co right? Is it
the writer's circle? That CEO?
Just writer circle.co, writerridercircle.co, so go sign up
for the newsletter. Join thiscommunity as you're you're
(52:59):
writing, you're hoping to getpublished, you're going to gain
a lot of wisdom from will. Andwhat he has discovered as he's
editing in the middle of it, ashe's talking to different
writers and publishers and andpeople in the game. So you want
to go and join that. It's good.
Is there anywhere else you'dlike to point people to? How can
they connect with you?
Will Parker Anderson (53:20):
Nope, that's it. Yeah. That'd be a
great place to go for those thatare looking to build a book
proposal, which is a huge partof the publishing process. I'm
also rolling out a course in acouple of weeks here that walks
you through that very dauntingprocess, step by step and so,
but all of that will be housedat writer circle.co so that's
(53:41):
our
Joshua Johnson (53:41):
people. Perfect, great. Well, well, thank you for
this conversation. Thanks fordiving deep into the process of
writing, into creativity, intothe tension of business and
ministry, into spiritualdisciplines. It was a fantastic
conversation. Really enjoyedtalking to you. So thank you so
much.
Will Parker Anderson (53:57):
Yeah, thanks. Joshua, really deep and
good question. So it was a joyto talk with you. You.
As followers of Jesus. In this
(00:01):
world, if you're doing nothing,you're being pulled, you're
drifting. We think to do nothingis neutral, but actually to sit
still is to be moving in thedirection of culture requires us
to swim against the current. Andof course, God helps us with
that. He doesn't leave us tothat on our own. You Joshua,
Joshua Johnson (00:32):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ looked like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson, in
this episode, I talk with willParker Anderson, writer, editor
and founder of the writer'scircle, about the tension we all
feel between productivity andpresence, business and ministry,
(00:55):
hustle and holiness. Will bringsclarity and honesty to the
internal battle many creativesface. How do we create from a
place of joy, not just ambition?
How do we resist comparison,reclaim play and keep our
identity grounded, not in ourplatform, but in the God who
delights in us? We dig into therealities of Christian
publishing, the spiritualdisciplines that sustain us and
(01:17):
the hidden dangers of remotework and quiet isolation,
whether you're a writer, anentrepreneur or someone simply
trying to live faithfully in anoisy world, this conversation
is full of wisdom vulnerabilityand practical encouragement for
staying rooted in what mattersmost. So join us. Here is my
conversation with will ParkerAnderson will welcome to
(01:39):
shifting culture. Excited tohave you on. Thanks for joining
me. Yeah, Joshua, great to behere. I want to know, as we
start out, just as some sort ofan introduction to you, what
drives you, why? Why do youexist? What is your motivation
and your purpose? Wow, we're
Will Parker Anderson (01:59):
just we're diving into the deep end. They
are. We are, oh my goodness.
Well, I just had a conversationwith a friend about the idea of
calling, and he kind of blew mymind, because he had all these
categories, but to simplify, I'dsay, Yeah, I exist to bring my
Creator joy, and I do that in anumber of ways. As Americans in
modern life, we often focus onour vocation, which is really
(02:23):
important, but whatever we do tomake money, our identity tends
to be really tied up in that.
And as a book editor, it'stempting sometimes, because I've
discovered people think that'scool, and I can hide behind that
fact, but who I am, primarily,you know, is a child of God, and
(02:44):
I'm here to bring Him joy in allthat I do. So as a father of
three kids, as a husband, assomeone who has a sense of humor
and has friends and spends timewith them, also the work that I
do, the things that I create asa writer. So across the board,
(03:04):
that is always my goal as I'mwaking up in the morning is, how
can I bring God joy, and how canI partner with him, and not to
slip into this mundane mindsetwhere I'm just checking things
off a list, but really invitinghim in, reminding myself that he
is dwelling within me and he'swalking beside me, and that
(03:27):
really can transform everythingwe do, especially those tasks we
have to do day after day afterday that start to feel a little
bit rote, boring, exhausting. Sothat would be my short answer.
Joshua Johnson (03:42):
Your calling of who you are as someone that
wants to bring the Creator joy.
Have you seen in your life apull to something other than
that? So when you're working asa book editor or as a father or
friend, is something where areyou getting pulled into
different directions of maybemaking it more about you and
what you do, or striving to getsome sort of attention for
(04:06):
yourself. Where have you foundplaces where that goes off the
rails a little
Will Parker Anderson (04:13):
bit? Well, I think you nailed it already,
Joshua, because you werealluding to the idea of
performance and the idea that,first of all, God's gonna like
me more. The more that I do forhim, the more successful I am.
The bigger books I work on, thebigger my platform grows. We can
couch self promotion in Kingdomlanguage and start talking about
(04:38):
our accomplishments, whetherconsciously or subconsciously in
a way that we're actuallydefining how God looks at us,
how he feels about us by thethings that we do. And that's
really dangerous. So personally,I can just say, at the end of a
day, I can evaluate my worth inhis sight and. By how pure my
(05:01):
thoughts were, or how patient Iwas or wasn't with my kids, or
how much I served my wifeversus, you know, just thinking
about my own needs. And then,professionally, man, I'm in an
industry that really promotesplatform, and it's a
prerequisite, right? If you wantto publish a book, you've got to
have a following. You probablyare on social media, you're
(05:23):
doing things like this, evenwhen you're on a podcast. And I
see that drive in the industryof writers that are just really
working hard to be noticed andto be heard, and many times
successfully. And so that'sprobably the biggest one, I
mean, to get vulnerable eitherlast night or early this
(05:43):
morning. I don't remember, but Iwas thinking about some of my
own personal goals, with myprofessional work, with the
business that I run, and I was alittle bit down, discouraged and
drawn to the few negative thingsthat maybe aren't growing or
trending, as I hope they were,and just ignoring this wealth of
(06:05):
other blessings and gifts in mylife. And so you asked where you
pulled I think that's theperfect word. I think I like the
name of your show, shiftingculture. I often think of our
culture as a current in theocean, because when you go into
the ocean, you don't realizeyou're moving slowly drifting
(06:26):
away. And it's not until youlook back at your beach towel or
your whatever you got set up onthe sand that you realize, oh my
goodness, I've drifted 100yards, and I didn't even
recognize it. And so asfollowers of Jesus, in this
world, if you're doing nothing,you're being pulled, you're
(06:47):
drifting, we think to do nothingis neutral, but actually to sit
still is to be moving in thedirection of culture requires us
to swim against the current. Andof course, God helps us with
that. He doesn't leave us tothat on our own. But anyways,
yeah, I'd say performance is ahuge one a comparison. Those are
(07:08):
all things that are continuallypulling and I would add one more
isolation, I think, theloneliness of modern remote
work, which is what I do, andI'm sure a lot of your listeners
can relate with this is you canjust sit with a laptop and get
everything done that you need toand forget that it's a gift to
(07:29):
sit with people. You know, mywife and I were just processing
this. When it starts to feellike an inconvenience to see
people or to chat with yourneighbors, that's a sign, I
think, that you're starting todrift in the current. And Justin
Whitmore early, who's one of myfavorite writers, he wrote a
book called made for people, andhe has this great line where he
(07:50):
says the goal of modern Americanlife is to become busier,
wealthier people who used tohave friends. And that line has
stuck with me. I mean, as youcan see, I just quoted it. It's
like, man, we get so caught upin chasing more stuff, and we
(08:10):
feel more accomplished and maybeeven more acceptable, in God's
sight, when we're busy, whenwe're running around like,
surely the frenetic activitymust mean that we're doing
things right, but it's just notthe case. So I resonated
Joshua Johnson (08:24):
with almost everything that you said. It is
something that I struggle withas well, especially now working
remotely, without a lot ofpeople around constantly and
trying to say, hey, there's somany good things that are
happening, but focusing on thethings that aren't growing, that
aren't working. One of thethings that I want to know is so
(08:46):
as a as a book editor, somebodyin in Christian publishing, as
you're looking at like whatyou're working on, or even as a
wider whole, what we're startingto publish. One of the things
you talked about was onlyplatform we need followers. The
The goal is to, is to sellsomething and make money. But
(09:07):
the goal also, I think, inChristian publishing, should be
to to shape what we're we'rethinking how we're moving, how
we're embodying Jesus. What doesit look like to be faithful
within the culture? And sosometimes it feels like as we're
moving towards wanting to selland make a lot of money, maybe
(09:27):
we're not asking the rightquestions, or maybe we're not
moving into a direction where,hey, the culture actually needs
something right now, they maynot actually accept it, so I may
not make money, but is it worthpublishing? So how do you
navigate those aspects ofknowing what is worth and saying
(09:48):
we need to make money, but wealso need to say something
worthwhile?
Will Parker Anderson (09:52):
Yeah, wow.
Joshua, what a loaded question,and a great one as well. Yeah,
that's a tension that we live inall the time. Time, I would
liken it to sort of thepolarized errors of prosperity
theology and poverty theology.
So prosperity theology says,Hey, God just wants you to get
rich. So you know, if you givehe's gonna make you a
(10:14):
millionaire. Of course, I'm thisis very reductionistic. Poverty
theology, on the other hand,says, hey, you know what God
wants you to financially suffer,because that is what holiness
looks like, and it's wrong tohave nice things. There are
grains of truth in both of thoseviews, but they're both not the
(10:35):
whole truth. In fact, they'retwisted and in the same way
people sometimes come topublishing with these extreme
views, they'll either say, hey,publishing is a business, and
they got to keep the lights on,and so we can't be sentimental
about this, like you have totake on authors that have a
realistic chance of returningyour investment. Because for
(10:57):
those that don't know,publishers take absorb all the
risk for an author, they pay theauthor. They don't get any of
that money recouped unless thebook does well. And spoiler
alert, most books do not dowell. I don't know the exact
number. It's something like 80%of books do not earn back their
advance. So I think to be fair,if people can put themselves in
(11:20):
the shoes of a publisher, like,imagine running a business where
80% of your clients, you're justshelling out money to them with
no return. So to demonizepublishers and to and to play
the God card, and like the inappeal to the kingdom mindset is
partially right on the otherside, yeah, I think people say
so. If the one side ispublishing is a business, we
(11:42):
should just think monetarily.
The other areas to say, like,no, publishing is just a
ministry. And I'm using thatlanguage carefully, you know,
just a ministry, because I dobelieve publishing is a
ministry, but that's not all itis. And so some would say, hey,
let's not worry about platformat all, and let's just focus on
the content, and let's findpeople of character and
(12:04):
conviction, and let's justpublish them. Well, the problem
with that is there's a lot ofproblems with that. One is a lot
of people with big platformshave conviction and character,
so it's a false dichotomy. Andso what I would say is we try to
the best of our ability, andwe're imperfect at this, but we
are looking for both authorsthat have large platforms,
(12:26):
because as we take risks as apublisher, we want to know that
there's at least a chance thatwe could make our money back.
But then also, we take risksquite often on authors who do
not have a huge platform, butwhat we see is a message and
character and sort of atimeliness to whatever they're
(12:49):
writing about that we're like,Yes, this is something that the
people of God will benefit from.
And I say people of God becauseI'm in Christian publishing,
right? And so it really is aboth. And you know, we have a
few authors that their bookshave maybe hit the New York
Times bestseller list or, youknow, another award, have won
(13:11):
other awards, and those bookstruly float us. I mean, they
they pay the bills, and we'revery grateful for them. And then
we have other authors who writebeautiful, thoughtful,
challenging books that reallyedify and enrich and they don't
sell as much. And so we don'tprioritize one over the other.
(13:34):
We just recognize God has calledus to both. And I think one of
the hardest things about beingin Christian publishing is that
tension is never fullyalleviated between what is
business and what is ministry.
They are so enmeshed bynecessity that we just have to
sit in that tension. Because theminute you try to alleviate it
(13:56):
and just become a business, oron the flip side, just become a
ministry we're not operating, Iwould say, in the most helpful
way. And so it's not an easyanswer, but hopefully that sheds
a little light on how weevaluate these things, and we
actually try to break it downinto Okay, how many authors with
small platforms can we takerisks on? And that helps us
(14:19):
prioritize and choose themcarefully. And then, on the flip
side, how many big fish, so tospeak, can we pursue this year
realistically and we really areintentional about trying to
welcome in both authors withplatforms and those who are
still trying to build them.
Joshua Johnson (14:38):
I think I have a there's a lot of listeners that
they're, they have a businessand but they want to see some
sort of a kingdom impact. Theywant to actually see some
ministry in it. So they view itboth as business and ministry,
and they're riding that tensionof both. And I think this is a
lot of us that are, are tryingto make a living in. Have
(15:01):
something where we could takecare of our families, yeah. How
do we ride that tension? Like,what does it look like,
faithfully and like daily like,what are we looking for in our
daily walk to ride the tensionbetween business and
Will Parker Anderson (15:16):
ministry?
Yeah, you know, businesses areorganic living organisms, and so
they're always changing, andnext month, you could be in a
totally different season withdifferent revenue, different
temptations, differentchallenges. So I think it's
similar to the entirety of theChristian life that we're always
having to evaluate. We're alwayshaving to take what we're doing
(15:39):
and submit it to God and askhim, Hey, show me my heart. Show
me things that I can't see. Ithink the regular disciplines of
the Christian life are theanswer to this question. So one
would be, you know, personalreflection and prayer before
God. Another would be community,having people around you that
are willing to speak candidly,sometimes very directly, in
(16:04):
saying, Hey, I think you'redrifting here, or that doesn't
sound like you, or that doesn'tsound like what I know of your
heart, or God's heart, andhaving that board of directors
in our lives that can, you know,just be super. Keep it 100 with
us. The other thing is auditingwhat voices are in your life and
(16:25):
who you are welcoming in. AndI'm thinking now of podcasts,
business gurus, coaches, evenpreachers like who is nourishing
your soul and forming yourworldview. I just worked with a
writer who built a seven figurebusiness and was working like 10
hours a week. Had a team.
(16:47):
Everything was automated, andthen God said to her, shut it
down. I'm not in this so she didimmediately. She amazing. I
mean, she was obedient, caughther off guard, pulled the rug
out from under her. It meant animmediate loss of around 500,000
in revenue a year. It meantlaying off like 10 people. It
(17:10):
was very painful, but I lovethat story, because she's
happier, now, healthier,physically, emotionally,
spiritually, she is hasn'tabandoned business, but she's
slowly rebuilding. But her storyis that she paid 1000s of
dollars to be in these specialmasterminds, only for
millionaires, and to go to theseChristian influencer events and
(17:34):
hire different coaches, and whatshe realized is that she had
slowly absorbed some reallytoxic ideas, these lies that
were again couched in ministryChristianese, but in reality,
were more tied to some new agethinking and some other
ideologies that she eventuallyrecognized to be really harmful
(17:58):
for her own soul. And so that'san extreme example. And like the
rich young ruler, where Jesussays, sell everything. I don't
know that God would say toeveryone, Hey, shut down the
business and just stop right ina way that's not even this
author's story, because she'sstill building a business. It
just looks very different. Butanyways, long story short, I
(18:21):
think vigilance, alertness, asensitivity to God's Spirit,
accountability to God's people,and a real discernment about
whose voices are shaping yourdaily life, including your
business. All of those are theingredients. It's nothing new in
the Christian life, but it'sit's taking very seriously that
(18:46):
Jesus spoke more about moneythan he spoke about sex, about
hell, about a lot of otherthings. And so when it comes to
business, making money is notinherently wrong, but it is
definitely playing with fire.
Some may disagree with that, butI'm just convinced we need to
know the idols of ourenvironment and in America,
(19:06):
success, hustle, financialstability are all things that we
can start to settle into thatatrophy our awareness of God's
leading and we become drones whohave theological answers for why
we're doing what we're doing,but maybe our hearts have become
deadened and numb to what Godwould really invite us to. And
(19:29):
that sounds so foreboding andscary, but actually it's a joy
as I worked with that sameauthor, and her life is so much
better than when she was runningthat six figure business or
seven figure business like themillion dollar mark that didn't
satisfy her. It's living inclose communion with God and
(19:52):
being able to hit the pillow atnight knowing that you are in
his will and. And that he's yourprovider, and he's got you, and
that you're willing to say nomaybe to certain things. It
could be revenue or it couldjust be the number of hours you
work, I don't know, but man,that is, that's the sweet spot,
that's where God calls us tolive. And it's not an easy life,
(20:14):
but it's a really fulfillinglife. And so the money's not
gonna save you. It's not goingto make your life as good as you
think it is. And I preach thatto myself all the time,
Joshua Johnson (20:27):
that's good. So one of the things that you said
in the middle of that is thatwhat grounds us in the middle of
this tension between businessand ministry and this tension, I
think, of productivity and justbeing in the will of God and the
American culture of hustle. Andyou know, success is our
spiritual disciplines. Whatspiritual disciplines have
(20:50):
helped you? What does it looklike in your life? What? What
grounds you in your relationshipwith God?
Will Parker Anderson (20:57):
Thanks for that question. Joshua, I It's
funny because I know what myanswers are, but I just want to
lead with this. You know, Idon't have it all figured out,
and I think every day is just astruggle to live a balanced life
and to walk closely with Jesus.
And, you know, like everyoneelse, probably listening, when I
(21:19):
come to Scripture, I try to readScripture daily. I'm not always
in the mood. I'm not alwayswalking away like, Oh, that was
the best, you know, I got somuch from that. It's just simple
daily obedience. And so there'sno silver bullet to
sanctification. It is what itis, but it's just a willingness
(21:39):
to plod along and to keep takingsteps, I will say, because we've
been talking so much aboutbusiness, like, personally, it's
easy for me to shut off from myday job as a full time editor.
Like, at the end of Friday,going into the weekend, I close
my laptop and I'm like, I'm donewith that until Monday, but
(22:00):
because I also run somethingcalled the writer's circle,
which is a community for writerswho are looking to get
published, that's always justbuzzing in my mind, and it's
hard to turn that off. That'slike, oh, I have 10 things I
need to do for my business, buttoday is Saturday, and my
highest priority is being withmy kids and resting. And so some
(22:20):
of the disciplines that havehelped me, one is just digital
disconnection, and what thatlooks like for me is on Sundays,
I am not checking any socialmedia. I'm not working on the
business at all. I actually, Ihave three young kids, and so
when they take their nap, I takethat opportunity. My wife
(22:43):
graciously allows me to driveabout 2030, minutes out of
Orange County, California, whereI live, into this nature
preserve, where there's a creekthat's flowing and these
beautiful oak trees, and thathas become my place where I
swear as I pull in and park, mysoul just immediately starts to
(23:04):
breathe in a different way, andI just use that time to journal,
walk, pray, you know, read, dowhatever. So that's a big one. I
think it would be like ifsomeone never slept. You know,
as tired and worn down as youwould be if we don't detox ever
from our phones and our work andbeing on screens or whatever
(23:29):
that looks like for yourlisteners, your soul is going to
just get run down and exhausted.
The difference is, with ourphysical bodies, we literally
can't keep living if we don'tsleep with our souls. We can
technically still keep going andfunctioning. We can stuff it and
(23:50):
plaster over it with busyness,but eventually it's gonna get us
and so yeah, I've just foundthat you gotta let your soul
rest, and not just rest, butabsorb nutrients and become
stronger. And I'm just remindedof how God commanded His people
to let the land rest every sevenyears. I was just at a farm last
(24:14):
summer on the central coast ofCalifornia where they actually
do this, and they were giving usa tour of all their crops, and
then they paused in this areathat was just sort of a tilled
field, but nothing was growing.
And they're like, you know, welet the land rest, and here's
why, and here's all thenutrients it absorbs from the
rain and the runoff. And theyhad all this great information
to share, and that is our soulsand a weekly rhythm, right?
(24:35):
God's wisdom is every seventhday you got to give yourself
that Sabbath. And so anyways,that's a huge one for me,
another unexpected one, becauseI could talk about scripture,
prayer, community, church,fasting, a number of things, but
one that is often overlooked isplay. I would say play is a
spiritual rhythm. God's heart isone of joy. Jesus Himself said.
(24:58):
I want your joy to beoverflowing, and not as the
world gives you peace or joy,but in a more robust way, my
spirit wants to overflow in you.
And I just I'm guilty. I takemyself too seriously. I get too
intense about things, and it isserious. The work that God calls
(25:23):
us to. It's eternal work. It'smeaningful work. It's work that
we pour ourselves out for, wesweat for, we bleed for. But at
the same time, what I've noticedback to your original question
about where do you get pulled inunhealthy directions? I think I
if I'm not careful, start tobelieve I don't have time to
laugh, I don't have time to havefun, I don't have time to be
(25:46):
with friends and to do thingssimply for the joy of doing
them. That is such a beautifulspiritual rhythm, one that
actually came out in a survey topastors. They were trying to
figure out what makes somepastors stay for decades and to
finish in that role, versusthose that bail? And one of the
(26:09):
top answers was the pastors withthe most longevity, despite the
emotional toll of the role andeverything that comes with it,
is their ability to play thosethat make space to play, to
pursue hobbies, to carve outtime for vacations. I can't tell
you, because I was a pastor forover a decade. How many pastors
(26:31):
feel guilty for taking vacationsand therefore just don't or they
take vacations, but they're notreally off. Man, that takes a
toll on your soul, and so Iwould say play is a hugely
important spiritual rhythm thatI'm trying to reclaim. And with
young kids, it's hard, but it'ssuper important for my own soul.
(26:52):
And so I'm trying to get back tomore of that.
Joshua Johnson (26:56):
So if you're talking to writers and you're
editing people, there's a fewthings right there with play. If
you're trying, you your purposeis to bring joy to your Creator.
You're made in the image of thecreator. You're a creative
being. This is who you are. Thisis all of us. We're all creative
beings made in the image of acreator. And so what is then the
(27:18):
role for you of writing ascreativity and play, and then
writing as as productivity andjob.
Will Parker Anderson (27:27):
Yeah, wow.
I think they're intertwined. Youknow, I think of the famous
Chariots of Fire quote that Ericlittle says, you know, he's an
Olympic runner, and he says,When I run, I feel God's
pleasure, and you can't find amore strenuous painful activity
than an Olympic runner. Oh mygosh, it's like pure mental and
physical strain. And yet, as hetrained, you know, chalk it up
(27:52):
to endorphins or the Spirit ofGod in Him, or whatever you want
to do, and probably both,because God created our
biological bodies and our souls.
But as we do the work ofwriting, it's a love hate. It's
like Man, this is toil, and wehit walls or we procrastinate.
(28:14):
We put off our work, we getreally excited about ideas, only
to find others aren't as excitedabout them, and that's the
reality of the work, right, ofwriting. But in the same way
that pastors who go the longhaul have learned to play, I
would say the writers who makeit are those that truly just
love to write. They love thework itself, the creativity of
(28:39):
it, the the ideating, therewrites, the massaging
paragraphs until they arrive attheir intended, you know,
destination. And so I talkedwith a writer once on my
podcast, and he had tried, Ithink it was eight years. He
kept submitting articles, justdogmatically, was trying to get
(29:02):
published at a particularorganization's, you know,
website, publication, just keptbeing told, No, no, no, until
finally he got somethingpublished. And I was like,
You're telling me that yousubmitted dozens of articles
over basically a decade. Whatkept you going. Why did you like
at a certain point, your pridejust says, Okay, I can't take
(29:25):
any more rejection. And hisanswer was simple and profound.
He said, Oh, I did it because Ijust love to write. Like even
though there was rejectionthere, he loved his craft so
much, and he used thoserejections to get better and
better and better and to figureout how publishing works and how
(29:47):
to navigate those conversationswith editors. And he learned
through failure to the pointthat now he's publishing his
second or third book, dozens ofarticles out there in the world
and so but it all really does goback. To that intermingling of
joy and toil. Anything worthdoing is going to be hard, and
(30:08):
that's the work side, butanything worth doing is going to
reward you along the way, maybenot in the public recognition
way that you would hope couldbe. But for most writers that I
speak to I just point them backin. A lot of them probably roll
their eyes, and they're like,all right, tell me. Tell me what
I really want to know, which ishow to get published. But it's
(30:29):
not a pat answer or a platitudeto say, no. It's about the love
for writing. Like publishing abook will not make you love
writing, but if you lovewriting, it may eventually help
you publish a book, and thatorder is everything, because if
you love writing, it doesn'tmatter ultimately, whether a
(30:49):
couple friends read it or 50,000people buy your published
version of it, if you reallylove to write, God is going to
use those words in profound waysand some of the most impactful
pieces of writing that I've everread. One came from my mom as
she was struggling with cancer,and she wrote this little note
(31:11):
while in the hospital and someof her final hours. Those few
words are some of the mostbeautiful, some of those
beautiful writing I've everseen. Another was a note that
this old guy named Jerry wroteto me when I was in sixth grade.
He read something I wrote, andhe saw this a gift in me, and he
decided to write me a note aboutit, and that note has stayed
(31:37):
with me my entire life. And sohe would get so preoccupied with
getting published that I thinkwe forget there are some smaller
and really profound ways thatGod wants to use your writing
outside of the whole publishingindustry.
Joshua Johnson (31:52):
So how do we stay connected to our
creativity, whether it's writingor whatever creative endeavor
that we're called to do whenwe're getting a lot of nos and
rejections from the world. Buthow do we how do we continue in
it? Like, if this is what doesfaithfulness look like in the
midst
Will Parker Anderson (32:11):
of that?
Yeah, I think we can bestrategic about this actually,
because when we have loftygoals, like I'm going to land a
book deal, then anything that'snot that feels like a loss and
feels like rejection and canturn us against ourselves in
discouragement. And so Iencourage writers to set
themselves up for smaller winsalong the way, because it's very
(32:35):
rewarding to put your writingout there, even if it's to a
small group of people, but toreceive positive feedback and to
to hear someone say, Wow, thatresonated with me, or that
helped me, or I felt seen. I'dnever thought about it that way.
When we start to get thatfeedback, it kind of lights and
(32:56):
relights that fire and keeps usgoing. And so I think we can set
ourselves up to experience thatand to resist the temptation to
sort of hoard our writing toourselves, thinking that, okay,
one day I'm going to land thebook deal, then I'm going to
show my writing to the worldinstead of that, a maxim that I
(33:19):
often say is practice in public.
So publish on sub stack, startan email newsletter, start
handwriting one to two notes aweek to people. Write a short
instead of writing a full 50,000word book, write 1000 word short
(33:41):
story and email it to 10 friendsand family members, invite a
friend to coffee and ask them toread it beforehand so that you
can come and talk about ittogether. The secret is to share
your writing and to write often.
And so we get idealistic, and wethink, Okay, I'm going to show
my work when I get my big break,and instead, you got to create
(34:01):
little breaks for yourself. Yougot to create little
opportunities, and that's alsohow you grow, by the way. So
both you'll be sharpened becauseyou'll receive some some
pushbacks or some critiques, butyou'll also be encouraged, and
you'll lose that fear of puttingyour material out there, it's
going to lose its sting likeit's anticipation is far worse,
(34:23):
right than the actual act ofdoing something. So if you're
just waiting and waiting andwaiting for to finally show your
work to people, and that's goingto torture you. So I say, get it
out there now and be okay withit not being your best work at
times, and be okay with lookingback on what you wrote a year
(34:44):
ago and thinking, wow, I coulddo a lot better now. And I
experienced that all the time,and I have learned not to resent
Will's writing from a year ago,but to pay it its dues, because
without that mediocre writing.
Then I couldn't write myslightly less mediocre stuff now
(35:04):
and and God is teaching me. I'mlearning from others. And
anyways, so that that would bemy main advice, is practice in
public. Just start putting stuffout there in whatever way you
can.
Joshua Johnson (35:18):
I think that's that's helpful. It's been
helpful for for me, as I ampursuing some writing is so I've
been, I've been writing a oneman stage show, and, wow, I have
a collaborator in it. Sofilmmaker, screenwriter that's
working with me, and that'sreally helpful is one like,
(35:38):
there's instant feedback fromone other person, and then as we
share it widely, I'm having myfirst table read of it next
week, and I'm really excitedabout it's exciting, what it
looks like with an audience,with some people, and then
saying what doesn't work, whatis bad, what what's not helpful.
And that feedback is really,really key, and that's gonna
(36:02):
help grow me as a writer,knowing that, hey, I I'm
probably harder on myself thanthan other people, right? Like I
so that's the question. I thinkmaybe for me as you know, I'm
really self critical. I want youknow, I know what really good
writing is, and I know that Idon't live up to it. And so one
(36:26):
of the things that I think anycreative would would think about
is, hey, I don't have it in meto get to that level. So why
even try? Why do it? What advicedo you give to people where they
are self critical and they knowthat they don't measure up yet,
but with practice, maybe theycould get, you know, one or two
(36:49):
sentences that actually soundreally good.
Will Parker Anderson (36:52):
Yeah.
Well, Joshua, I love that veryrealistic goal of one or two
sentences. I spoke with a writerrecently who said my goal every
time I sit down to write,whether it's a couple hours or
however long, is to just get onegood sentence. And real writers
know that is easier said thandone, and so some people are
like, I'm gonna get 5000 wordsout. That's great. And maybe
(37:15):
that's their way of getting thatone good sentence, right? You
have to make 100 versions ofsomething and maybe 99 mediocre
or bad versions of something toget one good thing. I would say,
no matter what you do in life,you can look around and find
people who are better. And so Ithink comparison is a really,
(37:38):
really slippery slope. You haveto be really careful, you know,
rather than looking at a goodwriter and saying, Oh, I wish I
was that good, I think you canlook and find one thing that you
admire about their writing andthen try to emulate that so to
look at them as a tutor, notyour competition. So actually,
(37:59):
yesterday I found this quotefrom James clear that I think
speaks to this. So I'll justread it real quick. He wrote
this quote to improve, comparelittle things, and then he lists
marketing strategies, exercisetechniques, writing tactics.
Then he says, To be miserable.
(38:19):
Compare big things, career path,marriage, net worth. And then
here's the clincher. He says,Comparison is the thief of joy
when applied broadly, butcomparison is the teacher of
skills when applied narrowly.
And I love that. So if you lookat a really good writer and
you're like, oh my gosh, theywrote this amazing novel. Look
(38:40):
at their book signings. There'sa line around the block. Look at
their platform. Look at theadvances they get. That is
comparing broadly, and you'rejust gonna drown in despair. But
if you just say, okay, thatwriter, their dialog is so good
and realistic and feels likeit's living and breathing. Why
(39:01):
is that? And then you go and youanalyze that. That's the kind of
thing that you can really learn,learn from. Fact, I was reading
this great piece on dialog, andone of their pieces of advice
was, just use the word said.
Dial back your adjectives. Don'tsay, you know they they said
(39:22):
vigorously or like and then theypointed to all these masters of
the craft who it's like thewords themselves are what bring
dialog to life. It's not how youdescribe the dialog, like you
just need the word said. Now, ofcourse, good writers do use
adjectives and adverbs anddifferent things. So I'm not
(39:43):
saying never to use them, butit's stuff like that, like very
specific and suddenly, with thatsubtle shift, you know, as I'm
writing dialog now, I justthink, like, Okay, I don't even
have to worry about adjective. Ijust or, you know, special fancy
verbs. I can just say. Said, butit's what these characters are
(40:03):
saying that really matters. Andhow can I make this as realistic
and compelling as possiblethat's comparing narrowly? You
know, I'm not going to Steinbeckthinking, how can I be better
than him at describing aconversation that'll never that
day is never gonna come. Butwhat I can do is look at the
simplicity of his verbs and thesimplicity of the grammar around
(40:29):
his dialog, and then to reallyhone in on how he is able to use
colloquialisms and short littlephrases that reflect real human
interaction, and suddenly,instead of despairing, I'm
growing
Joshua Johnson (40:46):
fantastic. I think that's so important in
comparing, you know, the smallthings be a teacher, comparing
the big things and makingmiserable. That's such a such a
helpful thing for us. Man, welldone pulling that quote. That
was
Will Parker Anderson (41:01):
great.
Well, thank you to James clear,yeah, I don't know how he does
it. Every week he drops somegold and, my goodness, I don't
know if he has a team that doesit. I think he writes all his
content. But yeah, thank you,James, wherever you are out
there.
Joshua Johnson (41:16):
So as you're working with writer circle, and
you're working with a lot ofriders, where do you where's the
majority of people getting stuckin the writing like, what are
some of the common pain pointsthat you find?
Will Parker Anderson (41:29):
It's a great question. Two come to
mind, and I'll label them aninternal hurdle and an external
hurdle. The internal one isplain and simple, imposter
syndrome. So I was leading aretreat for writers about
exactly a year ago, actually,and the room was, it was a small
group of maybe 15 that it wasreally high capacity leaders in
(41:53):
the room that I had personallyinvited people I really respect
that I really just want them torelease their thoughts into the
world. So I'm here to help themand coach them, but they're
brilliant. And what surprised meis, as the retreat got started,
one by one, different, peoplestarted to confide in me. I
don't know if I belong here or Ifeel really nervous about this.
(42:15):
As great thinkers andcommunicators, they still had
all this hesitation when it cameto writing and publishing, and
think that's instructive for us,is that the greatest enemy is
not some big publisher out thereor some industry gatekeeper.
It's our own self doubt. And asChristians, we have incredible
(42:36):
resources, both in our identityin Christ, as well as the safety
of community and unconditionallove that is not tied to what
we've accomplished or ourstatus. Now as humans, we mess
up. We start to overvalue thosethings, even in the body of
(42:56):
Christ. But again, we selfcorrect one another in love, and
we do our best. And I would saythe church is where I cut my
teeth creatively, as a musician,as a writer. I told you about
that note, that kind elderly mansent me. The church is an
incredible incubator forcreatives, or it can be, I
(43:18):
think, when it's functioning inits healthiest form. So that's
the internal hurdle impostersyndrome, that just this nagging
sense that we're not good enoughat any moment. You know, as
you're approaching your tableread Joshua, like, for you,
like, it's just those thoughtsof, like, what if I read this
out loud and it sounds stupid?
Or people are like, Ah, it'sokay, but I don't know. It's
(43:41):
those types of thoughts. I havethem, you have them. And
anyways, the external hurdle is,I think what we were talking
about before, and this isspecific to those that really
want to get publishedtraditionally, it's the platform
thing. It's the fact that theindustry has shifted in a way to
(44:01):
favor those that have garnered alot of followers, and that is a
nut that many of us struggle tocrack, but that's very specific
to wanting to get published,right? So I think both of those
I meet writers who they'vetalked and talked and talked
about this book they're gonnawrite, but the self doubt has
(44:22):
paralyzed them. And then I meetsome real, driven people who
might, quite honestlyoverestimate their writing
ability, but I love theirtenacity and zeal, and they're
just going for it, and they'recold emailing publishers, and
they've written 100,000 wordmanuscripts, and they're like,
Who wants this? Let's go. Let'sdo this. But they just have not
(44:43):
developed and gathered afollowing that publishers are
expecting. So you know, thoseare two very real hurdles.
Joshua Johnson (44:55):
So if you could talk to to Christian writers
specifically. Like people thatactually want to put words out
in the world that maybe shapesome some thinking and some
thoughts and to help people.
What would your advice toChristian writers be? What would
you say to Christian writers?
Will Parker Anderson (45:13):
Yeah, I'm very, very passionate about
helping writers who also loveJesus navigate this journey and
so quick, shameless plug, Istarted something called the
writer's circle, which is apodcast and a newsletter. And if
people go towriterscircle.co.co, they can
(45:34):
sign up for my newsletter. Buthere's the vision behind it that
I think answers your question.
If I could say something toother Christian writers, it
would be we need each other, andit's, I call it writer's circle,
because publishing often feelsto those on the outside like
it's this elite inner circlethat only the cool kids get to
join. You know that you have todo something impressive to be
(45:56):
welcomed into the ranks and topublish your work. And as an
editor, I do work with a lot ofauthors who have, quote,
unquote, arrived in terms oftheir name recognition. They've
gathered people around theirthoughts and ideas. But writer
circle is to say, Okay, this isnot who's in, who's out. Let's
erase those lines and let'sactually gather in a circle and
(46:20):
have conversations and shareknowledge and be really generous
with what it's like on theinside of publishing, and for
those really skilled writers tocircle up and share what you
know with one another. And sothat's what I do on the writer
circle podcast, is I just, Iinvite in literary agents,
(46:41):
editors, well known Christianauthors, newbie Christian
authors who are just startingout, and just document their
journey in real time. And all ofthat is just meant to drip feed
encouragement into the lives ofthose writers. And same thing
with the newsletter is I just Ishare what I'm learning, and
(47:02):
little insider tips that I knoware going to help move writers
forward, and so do not try to doit alone. Is the takeaway. Like
you need others around you, bothfor wisdom and insight, for
encouragement, for feedback andsharpening and so, yeah, don't.
Don't do it alone, just like anypart of our lives, as followers
(47:26):
of Jesus are meant to be livedin community. The same is true
as a writer. Don't go it aloneand recognize again, that the
the current of our culture willnaturally isolate you, will pull
you away in front of yourlaptop, and will not push you to
have community. So that'ssomething that you can seek out
(47:52):
on your own and in my own smallway, I think the writer's circle
provides that, at least in termsof listening in on conversations
and reading developmentalcontent that will encourage and
nourish your soul and yourcraft. But yeah, find your
people.
Joshua Johnson (48:11):
That's great. A couple quick questions here at
the end. Will one, if you goback to your 21 year old self,
what advice would you give? Oh,
Will Parker Anderson (48:19):
wow. Well, first I would ask, Why are you
such a fool? No, just kidding,my 21 year old self, yeah, I'm
just thinking back, where was I?
Okay? So I would have been, Ithink, a junior or senior in
college. One I would have graceon that guy, because I think I
was still discerning what God'sdirection for my life was,
right. I was coming to the endof a journalism degree. I guess
(48:42):
one thing I would say is cherishthis season of life, especially
when it comes to community. I'mapproaching middle age here, so
a lot of people experience this,particularly men, but we just
find ourselves in a season oflife that's high in
responsibility and lacking incommunity. And the loneliness
epidemic of modern life is welldocumented, but an interesting
(49:07):
nuance to it is that men inparticular are very lonely and
struggle to initiate friendshipsand to maintain those rhythms.
So thinking back on my 21 yearold self, I was surrounded by
friends and really immersed ingood community, just a very
different season of life. And soI think just savoring that and
(49:31):
appreciating that, maybe theother thing I would do is, and I
don't know, yeah, because youhave to learn lessons over time,
but I think my love for buildingand creating things, I think I
would take that more seriously,and maybe have started some
(49:51):
things earlier, even with mywriting, of investing more in my
craft. So. Those would be maybea few things I'd say. But
overall, I know that God, in Hiswisdom and His timing, has led
me on a path that's quiteintentional, and I sort of
accept what my early 20s wereand what I needed to learn in
(50:13):
those seasons. But anyways, whata great question
Joshua Johnson (50:19):
that's helpful.
I mean to me, yes, I would like,hey, savor that time. I mean, I
look back and like, I didn'thave the greatest college
experience. I had actually apretty bad college experience.
Yeah, there are aspects of itthat are like, I need to savor
that community, the peoplearound me. Yeah, so good. That's
helpful for a lot of people.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately you could
(50:41):
recommend,
Will Parker Anderson (50:42):
oh, wow, yeah, reading or watching? Yeah?
Well, I'm always reading, sothat's never a shortage of
books. I would say I've beenreading a series that's called
every moment holy. Some of yourlisteners may know what that is,
but it's a three volume workthat is essentially liturgies
for everyday moments of life. SoI actually have a copy here, and
(51:09):
I'm always looking to remindmyself that God is present with
me. And why I love this book, isit it turns mundane moments into
holy moments. And so here's asampling of like the types of
there's these little prayers,almost poetic little prayers.
And so some of them are aliturgy for the preparation of a
(51:31):
meal, for doing laundry, forfirst responders, a liturgy
before taking the stage for themorning of a yard sale, before
beginning a book for gardening,for consuming media like it's
such a brilliant series, andit's really beautifully written
as well. So the writing is sogood. So yeah, I would encourage
(51:56):
readers to check that out, andthere's a couple in there
specifically for creatives andwriters. So no matter what you
do, there's one that I thinkit's volume three is aimed at
the vocations we have in thework that we do, and that's
probably a good place to start.
Joshua Johnson (52:15):
Well, my wife has probably bought Volume Two
for people more than anything.
And so she's she used it a lotas we were processing and
walking with her mother as shewas dying. So it's a liturgy for
death and dying. And it waspretty powerful, as reading over
these liturgies through thatprocess was really, really good
(52:38):
and helpful. So every momentholy is fantastic series. It's
really good. So you could go towriter circle.co right? Is it
the writer's circle? That CEO?
Just writer circle.co, writerridercircle.co, so go sign up
for the newsletter. Join thiscommunity as you're you're
(52:59):
writing, you're hoping to getpublished, you're going to gain
a lot of wisdom from will. Andwhat he has discovered as he's
editing in the middle of it, ashe's talking to different
writers and publishers and andpeople in the game. So you want
to go and join that. It's good.
Is there anywhere else you'dlike to point people to? How can
they connect with you?
Will Parker Anderson (53:20):
Nope, that's it. Yeah. That'd be a
great place to go for those thatare looking to build a book
proposal, which is a huge partof the publishing process. I'm
also rolling out a course in acouple of weeks here that walks
you through that very dauntingprocess, step by step and so,
but all of that will be housedat writer circle.co so that's
(53:41):
our
Joshua Johnson (53:41):
people. Perfect, great. Well, well, thank you for
this conversation. Thanks fordiving deep into the process of
writing, into creativity, intothe tension of business and
ministry, into spiritualdisciplines. It was a fantastic
conversation. Really enjoyedtalking to you. So thank you so
much.
Will Parker Anderson (53:57):
Yeah, thanks. Joshua, really deep and
good question. So it was a joyto talk with you. You.
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