July 8, 2025 • 54 mins
What does it look like to resist empire without becoming empire? Poet and essayist David Gate joins the podcast to explore how care, friendship, and creative truth-telling can become acts of rebellion in a world shaped by power, productivity, and isolation. In this conversation, we talk about why individualism is a dead end, how to build communities that last, and why Jesus’ refusal to grasp power remains a countercultural model worth following. David shares the heart behind his new book Rebellion of Care, the role of art in subversion, and why the life we already have, if we live it with intention, can become the site of radical transformation. If you’re hungry for a faith that’s grounded, generous, and deeply human, this episode offers both vision and invitation.
David Gate grew up in London before making his way to Belfast, Northern Ireland and Jacksonville, Florida. He now lives in the ancient Appalachian mountains of Asheville, North Carolina, where he writes, mills flour, and tends to a one-acre homestead with his partner and children.
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Episode Transcript
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David Gate (00:00):
I do think like that is the way to avoid becoming
(00:03):
Empire yourself, is to stay sotrue to your values and so true
to your perception of the worldthat you are not blinded by the
ability to shape the world intoyour image, but instead you you
you let it go, and you die whenit's your time to die, and you
embrace that. Hello
Joshua Johnson (00:35):
and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in
which we have conversationsabout the culture we create and
the impact we can make. We longto see the body of Christ look
like Jesus. I'm your host,Joshua Johnson, what if
rebellion didn't look like ragebut like tenderness? What if our
most subversive acts weren'tmarches or manifestos, but
small, consistent choices toshow up, to love, to share and
(00:57):
to stay? In this episode, I'mjoined by David gate, poet,
essayist and author of rebellionof care. David's work doesn't
just critique the systems thatdehumanize us. It imagines
something more. It calls us intoa quiet radical resistance built
not on power or control, but onpresence, friendship and
generosity. We talk about theloneliness epidemic and how
(01:19):
showing up for your friendsmight just be one of the most
revolutionary things that youcan do. We explore the trap of
individualism, the unsustainablepace of hustle culture, and why
dependency, so often seen asweakness, is actually holy.
David unpacks how care becomesrebellion, how art speaks truth,
and why Jesus's refusal to seizepower is the kind of leadership
(01:42):
the world is desperate for. Thisis a conversation about letting
go of the need to win, aboutbuilding new ways of living that
are rooted in compassion ratherthan control. It's about
becoming people who embody thevalues we claim to believe, not
just in theory, but in ourkitchens, our neighborhoods, our
shared tools, our friendships,whether you're tired of
(02:03):
institutions that don't deliversearching for a better way to
build community, or justwondering what it means to live
a faithful life in a fracturedworld, join us. Here is my
conversation with David gate.
David, welcome to shiftingculture. So excited to have you
on. Thanks for joining me.
David Gate (02:21):
Thank you. Thanks for having me. Great to be here.
I
Joshua Johnson (02:24):
love your poetry and your new book. Rebellion of
care is, I think, fascinatingfor me, because when I when I
think of rebellion andrevolutions, I think of scrappy
underdogs taking power and thendeciding to become the
institutions themselves and andthen subjugating other people.
(02:45):
How did you figure out likerebellion of care was a common
theme, something that you caredabout and you wanted to express
to the world
David Gate (02:54):
after spending a lot of time online, very, I think,
accurately criticizing religionand politics and things I saw
wrong with the world. I wantedto concentrate this point in my
life on what are we building.
You know, what do I seereplacing various power
structures in the world? Becausewe depend on them, and I do
(03:15):
think hierarchies are somewhatinevitable. But what are we
actually doing? What can weactually build? How can we
actually think about doingthings differently? What kind of
world are we imagining? And itreally takes a vivid imagination
to get there, because the worldwe live in just seems so
unavoidable that I think thework of I think in this book,
like the work of the poetry,really is to settle into us in a
(03:38):
different form than just simplyanalysis or critique or
discussion, you know, findingart forms that can expand our
minds and hearts. So that's wasreally I was hoping to achieve.
Joshua Johnson (03:54):
As you grew up north London, you said you spent
a few years in Belfast, youlived in Florida. You're now
living in Asheville, NorthCarolina. You've lived in pretty
diverse places, but places whereyou may be confronted with what
the world is trying to give you,even with London and Belfast,
(04:17):
Florida, North Carolina, arethere any common themes that you
see this is the world is set upin a certain way that is
fighting against us humans.
David Gate (04:28):
Well, what if I'm really starting to get a little
political and to really hone in,I think it's the system we live
in, is the capitalist system,which is the same in London and
Florida and Belfast and NorthCarolina, and the expectations
of that system, how it demandsour lives and our bodies and our
(04:52):
time in order to function andreally only rewards those that
seem to be. The meanest or themost competitive, or the ones
that work 100 hours a week, andit's it's only willing to reward
what I would say is a moderatelydecent life to a very, very few
(05:14):
individuals, yet demands therest of us heed to it and bow to
it and serve it. And so thattinkles my my religious history,
and thinking about idolatry, andthinking about that this is just
isn't the way the world wasmeant to be, and how and how
we're made to be. And really, wehave all the resources to make
(05:37):
it a different way. It doesn'thave to be like this. And so,
yeah, I think that's consistentin all the places I've lived.
And I think, you know, it's thestory of Western culture
Joshua Johnson (05:47):
really well, we have, we have capitalism. You
know, Western Christianity is astaken a lot of that upon
themselves and decided to followa lot of institution and power
and hierarchy rather than embodythe ways of Jesus and the good
news that he brought, which is adifferent system, a different
(06:09):
power structure, than we findhere in the West, even in the in
the church today. Yeah, what aresome of the things that
fascinate you and that draw youto Jesus as somebody to show us
a better way to live in this
David Gate (06:28):
world in terms of the direction I've taken in
regards to my religious ideas,my political ideas, my ideas
about community and Sharing andcare, the way I approach art and
creativity all really stem fromwhat I learned about Jesus and
understood Jesus to be. So Ijust went far down that road.
(06:53):
You know, it is like people willsay, oh, Jesus was, you know,
loving and good and kind andcompassionate, but like you, if
you just keep going with thatthat leads you direct into
direct confrontation witheverything that is not gentle
and kind and generous and andgracious. And I just kept
following that, that path intoconfrontation, and continue to
(07:18):
and I think that's the way ofthe cross, you might say, or the
narrow road. I think if you area person that is captivated by
the teachings of Jesus and thelife of Jesus, then I think this
is the road for you, if
Joshua Johnson (07:36):
it is kindness and care in the midst of our
friendships, our relationships,our community, in the midst of
us being grounded to the earthto be with the land, in the
midst of figuring out how wecould cooperate and share
together. What is this care andkindness and why is it so
(07:56):
subversive to the crazycapitalist world that we live
in.
David Gate (08:00):
I think everything about this culture wants us to
feel like an individual. Soeverything is geared towards our
own personal well being,success, particularly success,
and so everything is shaped thatway. So particularly, you take
(08:22):
something that seems unrelatedto that, but like the reliance
on in America, on cars, is allabout us being able to go
wherever we want to go, wheneverwe want to go, and that I am
totally reliant. And the firstthing you do when you're a
teenager in America is you getyour driver's license, and then
you go and you'd be free. Andthere's like, there's a lot of
(08:43):
good about that, but it actuallywe've set up our cities and our
entire nation to not valuebusses and trains and public
transport. And so you get thefruit of that, which is that if
you cannot afford a car, or youcannot afford to fill it up
every week, or the monstrousinsurance, then you are at an
(09:03):
absolutely chronic disadvantagein American life, because the
entire you know, you can't getyour kids to school, you can't
get to work, you can't get tothe store. There's no walkable
neighborhoods you can count on,you know, most cities you can
count on one hand. So it'ssimple things like that make me
feel like everything is gearedtowards us as individuals, and
(09:24):
so then, like the rise oftechnology is just the rise of
social media has just reinforcedthat continually, that we are to
purchase our way to happinesswhere, where we need to buy the
best products. Feel moresatisfied from social media,
become the better influencer,get more followers, get more
(09:44):
likes, you know, present ourlife to the world in a certain
way. And so all of this is justactually isolates us. And so we
have this, I think, a gift ofthe internet and the gift of
social media in being that weare able now to connect. Act
more freely and more quicklythan we ever have in the history
of the human race, and yet wefeel more alone. And so it
(10:08):
really is this drive toisolation which makes us weaker,
makes us more depressed, andthat means we have less energy
then all that goes into our workand our jobs, and nothing's left
for our lives and nothing's leftfor our communities, and so we
have to kind of resist. This iswhy care is, you know, to
actually properly care foryourself and that, and then to
(10:29):
care for others is, is really aresistance to the way things
are, especially to care forothers, to actually spend time
being in committedrelationships, being there for
one another, sharing, you know,not everybody owning a lawnmower
and a drill and a saw. You sharethese things like, there's no,
(10:50):
there's no reason for us all toown everything. But it takes a
little time. It takesrelationships. It takes grace,
forgiveness, when they don'tbring back your chainsaw, when
you lend it to them, and youknow, like it, it takes
relationships and that energy,we have so little energy for
relationships and other peoplethat it is crushing us.
(11:13):
Dependency
Joshua Johnson (11:14):
is really difficult in a independent type
nation that America is thatvalues the the independence of
the the individual, that we cando everything and pull ourselves
up by our bootstraps and pressthrough and do hard things by
ourselves, the ruggedindividual. How have you found a
community to to fight againstthat, to resist that? That's
(11:38):
it's one of the most difficultthings, I think, to resist in
America, it's just really,really hard. Everything is
flowing one way of independenceand individualism. So what does
that look like for you? How dowe do
David Gate (11:52):
this? I think I'm speaking particularly to men,
but I think this applies towomen too. Is you have to be
able to be seen to be weak, andif you're not willing to be seen
to be weak and not, you know,self actualizing in every part
of your life, if you're notwilling to do that to be
(12:15):
perceived that way, then youwill never get over the your own
individualism. You know, you'llthe only way you'll ever accept
help is that absolute breakingpoint, or beyond breaking point,
when you're absolutely blown upyour life and and that's what we
see. That's the pattern we see,particularly in men, you know,
of not asking for help, notreaching out, not being willing
(12:36):
to be seen, to be weak and smalland able to not provide for
themselves and families and soforth. And so I think really,
that is the first step, becauseemotionally, then everything
comes from that. So once you'reable to become somewhat
comfortable with being perceivedas being weak or small or
insufficient, then you canactually proceed in a way where
(12:59):
you're not embarrassed, ashamed,hiding your dependence on
others. And once you do that,you then realize the extent that
you can actually help otherpeople. Because I think there is
a lot of compassion in thisworld. I think there's a lot of
people do want to help otherpeople, but often we don't know
what's going on in their lives.
Often, you know, we don't wantto patronize them, we don't want
(13:21):
to belittle them, we don't wantto make them feel weak or small
or or insignificant. And so we,we tend to stay out where we
could offer help and and I thinkreally, once those barriers are
down, emotionally to like, weaccept our place in the world
as, you know, fragile, finitebeings who don't have it all
(13:43):
together, all of us are justwinging it all of no one knows
what's what they're doing. And,you know, and hopefully, my
hope, is that people don't waituntil they're in their 50s, 60s
and 70s to work that out, and wecan maybe work it out a little
earlier. And and that really ishumility, like it is what it is.
It's accepting the finite natureof our lives. And once you do
(14:04):
that, then that's the doorway,then, I think, to actually
living a life of care foryourself and for others.
Joshua Johnson (14:14):
Today, we live in an anti institutional age. We
live in an age whereinstitutions are are breaking
and falling and saying that theyactually aren't caring for us
the way that we want them to.
Yeah, and so we're, we'retearing things down. It's, I
think it's an age of breaking.
But what, what I love about whatyou're trying to do is that we
(14:36):
have a breaking like we want torebel and kind of break the
system of of what's going onnow. But then there is this
building aspect, and part, whichhopefully we're going to get to
at some point, is like, is theregoing to be a better way
forward? Is there a place in thein the building aspect of what's
(14:59):
next? Is that institution andanti institution maybe come
together in a different in adifferent way, or a new way,
where we may need some, somelarge, you know, operations to
help us what? How does, how doyou see that fitting going
(15:19):
forward?
David Gate (15:20):
I think institutions are inevitable. I think we need
them. We build them. We have toomuch power hunger in our very
beings to not do that. We alsohave too we have too much will
to shape the world like we wantto shape the world. We want to
make it better. And so I thinkinstitutions are somewhat
(15:42):
inevitable, so I don't, and Ithink that's human nature. I
think most people generally wantto be led. You know, as well,
decision making is hard andtakes a lot of energy. Consensus
is difficult to get all thatstuff. So I think they are
inevitable. So I'm not reallyworking towards like, oh, I want
the entire human civilization tobe without hierarchy or
(16:05):
institution. I think that'simpossible, but I do want us to
approach that in a differentway, and the way to approach
that is to see it as more finiteand as more transient, and that
these things are meant tochange, and they're meant to
change, you know, within ageneration. You know, when I
think about America and I thinkabout the Constitution, drew up
(16:25):
that document within years thatworking out, no, we didn't hear
it quite right. We need to makesome amendments, and we need to,
but when, why do we stopamending? You know, like, like,
when life changes and technologychanges and and values change,
and our understanding and ourknowledge increases so much like
so our knowledge and ourunderstanding of race and of
(16:48):
history and and all this hasvastly improved. And yet we have
not, we have not changed theConstitution with any more
amendments, however long, youknow. And so every institution
needs to stay changing, and thenwhen it starts to fail, we let
it die. And we don't just, likekeep going because, you know,
(17:09):
this is how we've always doneit, or we don't just keep going
because, oh, it still does a lotof good, you know, like, you can
let things fail and let the needrise up new things and and I
think if we get in technology,it's called, like, planned
obsolescence, right? Like it's,it's like, get getting rid of,
like, your old tech for newtech, like they plan it.
(17:31):
Whereas, you know, that's notgood from a from a capitalist
standpoint. But I do think of acertain planned obsolescence in
our in power structures is areally good thing. We need to
think that anytime we instituteany kind of power or power
structure, that this will notlast forever and that it will
die and it will change and itwill not fit future generations,
(17:56):
and future generations shouldhave total permission to start
again and use whatevercomposters fallen from the
ground, from from the thing thatused to grow, to grow something
new, and to talk about that fromthe beginning, and to talk
about, you know, this is, thisis the right thing for now, and
(18:16):
when it's not the right thinganymore, we'll do something
different. So that's kind of howI want us to approach it,
whatever we're organizing in adifferent in a different way.
Joshua Johnson (18:25):
I think, particularly, I think some
people of faith have a hard timewith change, saying that God is
is constant and the same, right?
And so if he's the same, weshould always just be the same.
How do you help people likeuncover and unveil what, what
does change look like, and whyis change good to move us into
(18:48):
better directions? I mean,there's, there's constant change
in the Bible. I know that, but Imean, some people are like,
okay, God's constant and thesame. I should we should stay
the same and we should neverchange, or we could go back to
what was better.
David Gate (19:06):
Yeah, you know, yeah. I mean, there's so many
biblical stories about notreturning and, you know, you go
somewhere new. One book that ison my mind because the author
recently died, is a book calledpraying the Psalms by by uh
Walter Brueggemann. And he sadlydied last week, and that was the
very first Walter Brueggemannbook I read, and it is about the
(19:31):
process of harmony, disruptionand return and and really that
happens, not just in peoplegroups, but in relationships as
well. There's harmony, there'sdisruption, and then some kind
of restoration, or some kind ofreturn, or some kind of moving
on, you know, like, you know,death and new life is a kind of
(19:54):
resurrection, is a kind ofreturn. So thinking about those
pro. Successes, and seeing howthat's in the Psalms, just
constantly, Psalms of harmony,sums of praise, songs of
disruption, and I don't knowwhere I am, and you know, like,
what's going on, and why haveyou forsaken me? And and then
songs and psalms of return. Andthat's really the story of
(20:17):
Scripture, and it's actually thestory of human civilization and
our individuals and humanrights. Like, if you have, I've
been, I've been with my partnerfor 25 years this year, and so,
like, it's that's constantlyhappening, harmony, disruption,
return, right? And that's justthe nature of relationships and
(20:41):
and I think if we can helppeople understand that that is
just the nature of all things,and why we don't like that isn't
I don't think, I thinkemotionally is not a god's the
same, so we must be the same, asmuch as I'm afraid of death and
I'm afraid of Death and I'mafraid of the great change
(21:02):
that's coming, you know, the thefinal transformation, you know,
one more, one moretransformation that's just
around the corner. And becausewe are afraid of that one
transformation, or that onetransformation happening to the
people around us, then we kindof cling so tightly onto the
thing we have now, or the thingwe used to have that we thought
(21:25):
was the best. And so, yeah, alot of that is, again, I'm
coming back to letting go,letting go of our God, like
obsessions with ourselves, andaccepting our place as a part of
nature and caught this life,yeah, part
Joshua Johnson (21:41):
of this, what you've given to the world. And I
think who we are, we're we'recreative beings. And this is
where we're meant to to createsome art and beauty and and
hopefully, you know, a lot ofpeople are creating destruction
and and we want to resist that,to create some beauty. One of
the things that I know you did,you know, in 2021, as you
(22:01):
started this, this project, hedidn't know it was a project. It
was something like, Hey, I'mjust gonna throw up a poem a
week on Instagram and see whathappens. It turned into a place
of rebellion, of care, and itturned into a place of
resistance. This is, oh, this isa common theme that I'm talking
about, but I don't think itstarted there. So for I just
(22:24):
want to know about the nature ofart, and is it, is art true art?
Is it generally subversive? Isit something that is showing us
what is underneath the the pileof crap that we live in? Like,
what like? What is this natureof arts, and how did it start to
unveil itself through yourpoetry?
David Gate (22:46):
I mean, art is a very broad and sometimes
nebulous thing that people canyou know, people have different
philosophies on art. My Myphilosophy is really truth
based. So I What compels meartistically to write and create
is not so much to make a prettything, though I do like pretty
(23:10):
things, but but to tell thetruth like that's what's the
compelling thing, I have to findways of getting what's inside
out and in conversation doesn'talways do that, and I have to
find things, things that I canmake and that can last, whether
that be a poem or a picture oran essay or a book that marks
(23:34):
certain moments in time, certainexpressions of truth and Again,
that changes over your life, butthat's the creative impulse for
me, is to say something that'strue, and to to my perspective,
and everyone's perspective is aunique one, and that the world
cannot have enough art, becausethe world cannot have enough
(23:57):
expression of of truth, and youdon't have to kind of come up
with the entire truth in everysingle piece of work you do, but
it has to express something thatis true. And I think when it is
something that is true, that'swhat resonates, that's what
connects us through art. That'swhen, you know, I can look at
(24:18):
Roth goes, paintings and and Ijust see these endless windows
and doors that he's paintingover and over again and, and it
makes me think about thresholds,and it makes me think about
what's on the other side. And itmakes me think about everything
I've been through already, allthe windows I've looked through,
(24:38):
and then I've gone to the otherside and, and here I am again.
And you know, this one's red,the last one was blue, and like,
it's, it's over and over again.
And that's what that art doesfor me. It it resonates
something true. And so that'swhat I'm trying to do in my work
all the time, is just to expresswhat I see is true in the forms
that I've been given and theforms. I've found the forms that
(24:59):
I'm good at, the ones that thebest. Grab what I'm willing to,
you know, wanting to put intothe world and just do my best
with it. And then you learn, asa artist, how to grow in that,
how to become more diligent inthat. You learn your craft. You
learn how to shape thingsbetter. You learn about form.
You learn about what works. Youlearn the rules, then you learn
(25:19):
how to break the rules, and youknow, all that stuff is just
artistic discipline. At thatpoint,
Joshua Johnson (25:26):
the discipline is an importance. I find it
fascinating for you as you lookback on your work after a year
of posting and find a commontheme. I mean, it was the my
wife and I just finished upabout a year of in a creative
cohort where we're creatingpieces and sharing them with
each other and getting feedbackand all that. And one of the
(25:46):
last exercises was to look backon everything you created and
see what actually popped up thecommon themes. And it was
fascinating that there was acommon theme in there. I mean,
mine was about breaking cyclesof of revenge and violence, of,
you know, of generational cyclesand cycles of subjugation. You
know, my wife's was really aboutthe care, care for marginalized
(26:10):
and the and the vulnerable. Ifind that important to know,
like, what is really underneaththe thing? What do I care about
and what do I value that was thevalue for me is now I could
actually see, oh, that may besomething that I could bring to
the world, because I've actuallydone this creative work. How did
(26:33):
you you move from just posting,what do you think is true, to
actually seeing a type of commontheme in your work, and wanting
it to bring that into the
David Gate (26:45):
world. I think it was a real shift over time,
probably over a 20 year period.
So from when I was a lateteenager, early 20s, white man,
boy with opinions, right? And soyou just, you just, it's opinion
based. And I've still gotopinions, got lots of them, but
over time, I realized that myopinions are nowhere near as
(27:08):
important as my values. And myvalues then begin to really
shape the opinion so you thenyou're not reacting to
everything that's going on inthe world. Then you're not
reacting to, you know you're notturning left and right, and
you're not having all thesecontradictory opinions so much
as you know they've they thenthings begin to make sense when
(27:29):
you begin to understand your ownvalue system. Now, for for
individuals, most of our valuesystems are inherited from
whatever religious upbringing,every family upbringing,
cultural upbringing, we have,and I think as an individual
then, but you have to look atthat and think, Well, I have to
decide, because not everything Iwas given was good, maybe a lot
(27:53):
of it was but, like, noteverything I was given was good,
so then I have to decide, whatis it that I'm going to value?
And, you know, and people,particularly Christians, don't
like doing that, because theyfeel like I've been handed this
Bible, and I have to thenconform my life to this Bible.
But I began to realize in my 30sthat, like, you can justify
(28:13):
basically anything you want todo through the Bible. So rather
than, like, go down that roadthat so many people I know, and
I think I went down this road aswell, of like, well, what does
the original Greek say? What wasthe intention of the author?
What was that, you know, like,we get into a very theological,
you know, really get intohermeneutics, you know, really
trying to pass out, what's theBible really trying to say? And
(28:34):
I would find that all thesepeople that were did, that were
still just doing, was still justreally, just justifying their
own cultural values, right?
Like, so I realized, Oh, that'snot the game. The game is to, is
to choose, is to look at thatBible and say, What do I want to
choose? And to certainly be opento, like, oh, I might be wrong.
(28:57):
Or like, there might be,there's, there's nuance, there's
complexity, there's things likethat. But like, really, to say,
Oh, I'm going to choose what Iwhat I value, these verses that
speak to me, these, these arethe psalms that speak to me
most. I'm going to go in thatdirection. And for me, that
really was the the words andlife of Jesus. And to have that,
you know, it was the Gospels,basically, particularly the
(29:21):
sermon on the mount and theBeatitudes. And, you know, from
a teaching standpoint, is that Idecided to prioritize that and
then see everything that Paulwrites through the lens of what
Jesus said, rather than theother way around. And and once I
kind of began to do that, it waslike, yeah, these are my values.
(29:41):
Like, this is, this is what Ivalue. This is how I want to be
in the world. And like so forme, writing poetry, moving away
from writing theology or writingopinion pieces, writing those
kind of essays where I was beingvery fair and reasonable and
trying to, you know, like makingargument. Some counter
arguments, and moving away fromall of that into, Oh, I'm gonna
(30:04):
talk like Jesus did, which ismore mysteriously than anyone
likes, and, you know, like andjust be. Just avoid like. I
avoid doctrines in my work. Iavoid statements of belief in my
work. Statements of value areall over my work, like so my
values are all over my work, butmy statements of beliefs and
doctrines, you know, I thinkyou'd be difficult to to really
(30:28):
piece together, you know, what Ibelieve theologically from my
work, and that's veryintentional. I do not want to do
that. I don't want to be intheological spaces. I want to be
in creative spaces, and forpeople who have open minds and
open hearts, and that's who I'mtalking to, have no time really
for doctrinal arguments
Joshua Johnson (30:49):
as we move forward in like a values based
community, is there a poem orsomething that you have written
that spoke to you and unveilsome of your some of your values
in in your work. Yeah,
David Gate (31:05):
this is one of my I'm gonna read this one. It's
one of my most popular ones asthe title of one of the
chapters, and it's called,friendship will save us. And so
there's a whole chapter in thisbook about friendship, and I
really put the emphasis on thewhen we're building communities,
it doesn't begin with the familyunit. It begins with our chosen
(31:27):
friendships. You know, the thefamily unit is really just where
we learn how to be good friends,like how we learn commitment,
how we learn forgiveness, butreally, those things have to
translate into friendships,otherwise we just have a
slightly healthy family unit,and that's useless to the world,
yeah. Like we really need tohave good friendships like that
is what will save us. That waswhat will bind us. That was what
(31:50):
will get us through. So this is,this is the poem, friendship
will save us. Friendship is whatwill save us. So fall deeply in
love with your friends, datethem, woo them, pursue them.
Mark your anniversaries,celebrate your victories. Take
care of their names when they'renot in the room. Create a space
(32:13):
for them where all truths aretender. For intimacy doesn't
have to be reserved for romance,and crushes do not belong only
to lovers, so don't hide it whenyou find a bona fide ride or
die.
Joshua Johnson (32:30):
I think friendship is so key. How do we
do this? And if we in thisloneliness epidemic that we have
where we don't know how to befriends, or we think that, you
know, hey, we have more socalled friends on social media
than we ever have before, but wedon't actually have your ride or
die. You don't have those peoplethat will actually save us. How
(32:54):
do we be vulnerable and be inrelationship with others?
David Gate (32:59):
I think it's really difficult. I think friendships
always difficult, but I thinkparticularly now it's, I think
COVID peeled back many of thelayers of friendships and
stripped us back and reallyforced us into isolation, and
it's been very difficult forpeople to break that spell. I I
(33:21):
do think it is possible, and notjust possible, absolutely
necessary. And people don't likethis, but you have to be the
friend that you want to see inthe world, and even if that
means you get rejected and like,you know, and if we're talking
in in terms of Christianresponses, like, that's the way
of Jesus. You know, you you, youact how you feel, like human
(33:44):
beings should act in the world,even if it means rejection. So
you put yourself out there. Youhelp others, you know. And yes,
is that like painful and costlywhere you don't get the same
return back from thosefriendships? But guess what?
That's just a capitalist way oflooking at relationships.
Looking at relationships, likethe transactional like, I help
(34:05):
you, you help me. I help youthis much. You help me that
much. You know, like I hate, Ihate watching friends online,
like Venmo each other for like,coffee and stuff like that. I
might just buy each other coffeelike, just, you know, like, can
I get it if your friends brokeor whatever? Like, I mean, that
I'm not saying that every timeyou Venmo someone for coffee,
(34:28):
that's bad. I'm just saying,like, we should, we should. We
can't be in transactionalrelationships, right? So we
can't, we can't be inrelationships where we think of
and like, I mean, obviously wecan't be in truly one way
relationships either, like, whenpeople are not giving you
anything back and they're justtaking, taking, taking, like,
that's not healthy either. Butno, I think like it, you have to
(34:51):
understand that if you're gonnaventure this brave new world in
the in our COVID, isolatedtechnological terms, that you.
You're going to have to give andnot get everything back that
you've given, and that's okay,and that's how relationships are
built and formed. That's howtrust is built and formed. The
(35:12):
other thing I think is reallyimportant, and I think it's a
huge problem in my generation,is flakiness and so not showing
up canceling. Like we all jokeabout it. Oh, we love it when
people cancel. And, you know,like, we all love it, you know,
to have another evening at home,you know, doing the exact same
thing we did yesterday, watchingstreaming shows and eating ice
(35:36):
cream. And, you know, likehaving a wine at six o'clock.
And you know, like, we all likethat, and we all feel like we
need it, and I get it, but like,you have to show up your
friends. You have to turn up fortheir gigs. You have to go to
their you know, shows. You haveto, when they say, let's grab a
coffee. You grab a coffee. Youknow, you commit. Like, once
(35:58):
you've we're just so willing toflake, I think, and and that
hurts. And so that would be an,I think, number one thing you
could turn around tomorrow isjust don't flake. Just when,
when you say you're going tomeet someone, just show up and
meet them. Like showing up is somuch of life like, you know, you
show up for your friends, youshow up for your art, you show
(36:20):
up for the things you value. Youshow up for your community.
Like, if you can just keepshowing up, you don't even have
to be good at any of this and begood at Friendship. You have to
be good at art. You don't haveto be good at community
building. But if you keepshowing up, it will get built
and it will happen, right? So,like, that is the number one you
you just got to show up. Youcan't be
Joshua Johnson (36:39):
flaky. This is the hardest thing in America, is
show up for each other, but whenwe do, we feel so much better
than if we just stayed home andwe watched a streaming show,
which I love, streaming shows,so I want to actually just talk
about a streaming show right nowand talk about andor. I was
listening to Tony Gilroy, whocreated andor wrote it, one of
(37:02):
the things that he says hethinks that one of his through
lines and of values in all ofhis work that he has done is the
importance and value ofcommunity and how community will
actually help transform us, andthis is what we need. I know you
wrote, you have a great subsetarticle on andor. I just, I love
(37:25):
that article, and I love whatyou say about what what this
rebellion actually is, and howit actually takes all of us,
how, what do we see in andor,this weird Star Wars without
lightsabers, type of of showthat can is just resonant with
all of our lives at the moment.
What do we what do we start tolearn? Give, give me some andor
(37:47):
love
David Gate (37:50):
and or season one was incredibly coagulating for
my book, and I had started, II'd watched season one, I think
it came out in 22 and so I hadwatched it, and I was already
writing, like, in thatdirection. And then after I got
the book deal, and I knew, like,Oh, this is actually happening,
(38:12):
like, I went and re watched itnow, you know, because I think
my kids hadn't seen it. And sowe sat down and we watched it
together. And so I watched itthrough the second time, and it
emotionally just where, youknow, we were. I think this was
2023, and so like, you know,there's an election coming up,
and you know, it's like just themoments we were finding
ourselves in. I just found it soresonant for both the time we're
(38:35):
in and for my work, inparticular about forming
rebellion. And so that was whenreally, I started to think, oh,
I need to lean into therebellion aspect of this, and it
not just be about, you know,like, because I think so I write
about care a lot. I write aboutfriendship a lot. I write about
looking after yourself, a lot,you know, looking after your
body, looking after your mind,your spiritual life. Like, all
(38:57):
those things can lean wellness,right? Like, so all those things
can lean towards a certain justlook after yourself, you know
you're you've got this, you knowyou're that kind of way of being
in the world. And I didn't wantto do that. I wanted to really
lean into the into rebellion andcommunity and and how to marry
those things together. So and orwas incredibly formative. One of
(39:19):
the chapters is named after aline from the from the show.
There's at least one actual linefrom andor that I put in the
last poem of the books in there.
And so and I was listening tothe soundtrack as I was writing
some of that stuff. And sohugely important. I think andor
as a show is an absolutemiracle. Like to have this
(39:42):
Disney produced Star Wars showthat is so willing to get into
the difficult a nature ofbuilding and forming rebellions
against Empire is it's just. Isamazing. It is so well written.
The characters are so wellformed. It it's, I don't think
(40:04):
you need to know anything aboutStar Wars to enjoy it, like if
you just like good TV. Thewriting and acting and direction
is so good, you know, especiallyif you have any kind of politics
that leans towards therebellious rather than the
Empire, like I I think it willall resonate for you. But if you
(40:24):
do have a little bit of StarWars in you, and you do like a
little star wars, then it's justa dream come true. It's like,
it's like everything that I everwanted, you know, and I've
adored it. And then season two,which just came out after I
finished the Bucha, you know,and it's as good as good as
season one, and that they, theywrapped it up so perfectly, and
very emotional, very inspiring,you know? And then, you know, we
(40:48):
record, I don't know when thispodcast being released, but
we're recording this the firstweek of June, and there's the
response in LA that's happeningnow to protest towards ice. And
you're just seeing the samething, seeing these armed guards
turning up, you know, these themilitary showing up to protests
and sparking violence in orderto justify further violence. And
(41:12):
we live in, we live on Gormanlike that's where, where we are,
and that's what we're seeing.
It's, it's perfectly at thismoment. So I found it very, very
informative and inspiring. It
Joshua Johnson (41:28):
is. So how do we do that then? So there were, as
we stand up, as we rebel againstthe Empire. So even now, as
saying, hey, these these ICEraids that are just going to
take people away without dueprocess at all, which is part of
what's supposed to be. Part ofour value system in America, is
that people have some dueprocess. So we're rebelling
(41:51):
against something that we thinkis incredibly unjust and
shouldn't happen, rebellingagainst the Empire. How do we do
that without becoming Empireourselves. I think that's this
is, I think this is the thenature of rebellion is it
becomes Empire at times. Can westop becoming the Empire
(42:12):
ourselves?
David Gate (42:13):
Yeah, I do think the only way to do that is to let go
of power once you've got it. Andwhich I, I think, for me, is one
of the most compelling thingsabout Jesus, Christ. And so, you
know, once he had formed anabsolute horde of people
following around, he justrealized that this isn't good,
and started shedding followers,left, right and center, saying
(42:35):
things that would frustrate themand annoy them and confound
them. And then even when heenters Jerusalem, you know, and
it's make way, and it's, youknow, palm leaves, and it's
riding on a donkey, he's makingthis massive political
statement, you know, and he'skind of coalesced a movement at
that point, like, even if hewasn't meaning to, like, there's
(42:56):
this moment where he couldreally ratchet it up
politically, and what he does isspends that week saying the most
difficult things that he says,and just absolutely shedding
followers until he's left alone.
He has become so dangerous thateven his friends deny it. And so
I do think like that is the wayto avoid becoming Empire
(43:21):
yourself, is to stay so true toyour values and so true to your
perception of world that you arenot blinded by the ability to
shape the world into your image,but instead you, you, you let it
go, and you die when it's yourtime to die, and you embrace
that, and you, you move overwhen it's your turn to move
(43:42):
over. And I think you have tomodel that and display that for
other people, and not try andcontrol it, not thinking, well,
if I move over, someone worsewill take over. You know, like
if I move over, it won't be asgood. If I if I move over, then
the things that I've institutedwill fall and die. Everything
falls and dies like it. You haveto be able to willing, to let it
(44:03):
go. And do I think that's goingto happen? Like, say, if you
know, like the rebellions inthis country, you know, I say we
get a populist left wingmovement that takes over the
powers of government? Do I thinkit's going to take that road of
letting go? Probably not. That'sthe history of the human race.
But I think the good peoplewill, I think the bravest of us
(44:23):
will and will leave a morepowerful legacy because of it.
And you know, going back to StarWars, going back to the the
original Star Wars and new hope.
And you know, Obi Wan realizingthat he's gonna become more
powerful than Vader can everimagine, by displaying to Luke
(44:47):
that what you do is you give upyour life and and so he just
gives up in the fight and givesup in the fight and just dies.
And therefore becomes morepowerful, inspiring both Luke
and Leia, which the first timein. Luke and era together in
their lives and displays thisway of giving up, which then
Luke then models later on invery controversial movie. Which
(45:12):
I love that movie, The LastJedi. But like I know it's
Unknown (45:15):
very I love the last Jedi. Yes, I know it is, but I
love the last, and
David Gate (45:19):
I like the way he comes through his own path to
that same conclusion that ObiWan comes to, that the way to
model it to Ray is to lose hisown life and and to disappear
into the force. And that's allany of us can do. So the way you
avoid becoming an empire, theway you know, the way you avoid
becoming the thing you hate isto disappear into the force
Joshua Johnson (45:42):
that is so hard.
I pray that we can get there,and we can actually embody these
ways of Jesus and Obi Wan Kenobiin in our lives. And you know,
figured this, this thing out.
David, if you could talk to, youknow, people pick up rebellion
of care. This book. Read yourpoetry. What hope do you have
for for your work and the peoplewho read it?
David Gate (46:05):
My real hope with with the person who picks up
this book, is that they see thata rebellion of care is is right
there and present in their inthe very lives they have now. So
it's not that you have toradically change your life. It's
not that you have to suddenlybecome someone different, adopt
some new principles, you know,like that. Really, almost
(46:27):
everyone who picks up this bookwill have principles of love and
care and compassion already, youknow, and will believe that art
changes things and friendshipchanges things. These are not
like new ideas, particularly assuch. And so what I was hoping
this book does is that it reallyinspires you, that this life is
within your hands already. It isthe life you already have. Is
(46:49):
what you already value. You justneed to become radicalized into
the life you already have, andnot just let it passively slip
you by, but like to actuallylive truly to what you already
believe.
Joshua Johnson (47:04):
Good couple real quick questions at the end. One,
if you go back to your 21 yearold self, what advice would
David Gate (47:09):
you give? I would keep writing. Don't stop writing
and keep sharing. It like soI've always written. I didn't
ever stop writing, but I didstop sharing. I did stop because
I didn't get all of the externalaffirmation that I needed to
(47:29):
bolster my confidence. I think Iwould really encourage my 21
year old self to like you don'tneed the external validation.
You just need to keep sharing,and eventually you'll find your
people. You'll eventually findpeople who appreciate your voice
and your voice resonates withthem, but the only way to do
(47:50):
that is to keep putting it outand being and risk looking weak
and small and useless and notvery good at writing. Because,
guess what, you're not very goodat writing, and so we're like,
that's that's okay, that's justpart of the process. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (48:05):
great. Anything you've been reading or watching
lately, you could recommend. I'm
David Gate (48:08):
currently reading book called we tell ourselves
stories, which is a book byAlyssa Wilkinson, who is a film
critic for the New York Times,but she has written this book
about Joan Didion, and aboutJoan Didion, particularly Joan
Didion's relationship withHollywood, because she was a
(48:29):
screenwriter herself. She livedin hot she lived in LA and the
LA area, and was part of thatworld and but was also a film
critic herself. And so herrelationship with that and the
relationship with Hollywood andpower. What I love about Joan
Didion, and Joan Didion wassomeone I really lent on for
these essays, is she's just, shejust told the truth. So she
(48:52):
wasn't really an analyst and shewasn't really a commenter, as
much as she just she observedand she told the truth that she
saw it, and that was mostpowerful about her writing. And
so that's what I have tried.
I've tried more and more toadopt into my own writings just
to tell the truth or how I seethe world, and let that be the
(49:14):
power, rather than like tryingto convince someone or
something. There's not reallymuch convincing going on in Joan
Didion's work and so, so I lovethis book. This book is, is
phenomenal. I really enjoyingit. So
Joshua Johnson (49:30):
I loved we tell ourselves stories. It's good. I
was able to interview Alyssaabout it on the podcast, and
it's fantastic book. It wasreally good. I'm a fan. Yeah,
good recommendation, yeah. Goodrecommendation, yeah. A
rebellion of care should beavailable anywhere books are
sold and go and yeah, get it isthere anywhere particularly
(49:53):
you'd love to point people to tobe able to get it, or how could
they connect with you?
David Gate (49:57):
Yes. So if you're going to buy the book, I would
love it if you bought. From yourlocal indie bookstore. I That's
how I that's how I drive. I'mnot really an Amazon guy. If
you're not from the Empire,well, I mean, like, you know,
I'd rather you buy it than not,but I would rather you spend the
extra dollar, or whatever it isto get it from your local
bookstore. If you want a signedcopy, or you don't have a local
(50:20):
bookstore that you want tosupport, you can support you can
support my local bookstore,which is called malaprops in
Asheville, North Carolina, andthey have signed copies. And you
can order one of those signedcopies online, and if you pre
order, it comes with a print,yeah. And then I'm just online,
David gate poet.com if you wantto buy any of my prints or
stickers. I went on Instagram atDavid gate poet and my sub
(50:41):
stack, which I'm really devotinga lot of time and energy into
writing something I think goodand worthwhile every week. I'm
really giving it my all to writein these trying times every week
and give people something tocling to and something to
hopefully inspire and challengeand all of that stuff. So that's
(51:03):
you can find me in sub stack
Joshua Johnson (51:04):
too. Excellent.
Well, David, thank you. I lovethis conversation. It was such a
joy to connect and to have thisconversation with you. And I'd
love to finish and end thisconversation with a poem. If you
have one more in. Yeah, yes, Ido. It would be great for you to
read a poem as we head out fromour conversation.
David Gate (51:26):
Okay, so this is really a poem about what I was
talking about, that you find therebellion of care in your own
life, okay, and in the verysmallness and ordinariness of
your own life. And this iscalled the font this kitchen
sink, the font of my home, wherebread pans soak and milk bottles
(51:48):
swirl, where we wash paint potsand brushes in the aftermath of
craft, where salad leaves rinseto be rid of bugs and soil,
where I clean The abrasions ofmy working hands and all the
blood from the little cuts ofconstant use in repetition and
never ending chore, I come tothese sacred waters daily to
(52:13):
baptize the entirety of my holylife. Beautiful. Thank
Joshua Johnson (52:19):
you. Thank you.
What a great conversation. Lovedit. So thank you, David, thank
David Gate (52:23):
you so much. You.
I do think like that is the way to avoid becoming
(00:03):
Empire yourself, is to stay sotrue to your values and so true
to your perception of the worldthat you are not blinded by the
ability to shape the world intoyour image, but instead you you
you let it go, and you die whenit's your time to die, and you
embrace that. Hello
Joshua Johnson (00:35):
and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in
which we have conversationsabout the culture we create and
the impact we can make. We longto see the body of Christ look
like Jesus. I'm your host,Joshua Johnson, what if
rebellion didn't look like ragebut like tenderness? What if our
most subversive acts weren'tmarches or manifestos, but
small, consistent choices toshow up, to love, to share and
(00:57):
to stay? In this episode, I'mjoined by David gate, poet,
essayist and author of rebellionof care. David's work doesn't
just critique the systems thatdehumanize us. It imagines
something more. It calls us intoa quiet radical resistance built
not on power or control, but onpresence, friendship and
generosity. We talk about theloneliness epidemic and how
(01:19):
showing up for your friendsmight just be one of the most
revolutionary things that youcan do. We explore the trap of
individualism, the unsustainablepace of hustle culture, and why
dependency, so often seen asweakness, is actually holy.
David unpacks how care becomesrebellion, how art speaks truth,
and why Jesus's refusal to seizepower is the kind of leadership
(01:42):
the world is desperate for. Thisis a conversation about letting
go of the need to win, aboutbuilding new ways of living that
are rooted in compassion ratherthan control. It's about
becoming people who embody thevalues we claim to believe, not
just in theory, but in ourkitchens, our neighborhoods, our
shared tools, our friendships,whether you're tired of
(02:03):
institutions that don't deliversearching for a better way to
build community, or justwondering what it means to live
a faithful life in a fracturedworld, join us. Here is my
conversation with David gate.
David, welcome to shiftingculture. So excited to have you
on. Thanks for joining me.
David Gate (02:21):
Thank you. Thanks for having me. Great to be here.
I
Joshua Johnson (02:24):
love your poetry and your new book. Rebellion of
care is, I think, fascinatingfor me, because when I when I
think of rebellion andrevolutions, I think of scrappy
underdogs taking power and thendeciding to become the
institutions themselves and andthen subjugating other people.
(02:45):
How did you figure out likerebellion of care was a common
theme, something that you caredabout and you wanted to express
to the world
David Gate (02:54):
after spending a lot of time online, very, I think,
accurately criticizing religionand politics and things I saw
wrong with the world. I wantedto concentrate this point in my
life on what are we building.
You know, what do I seereplacing various power
structures in the world? Becausewe depend on them, and I do
(03:15):
think hierarchies are somewhatinevitable. But what are we
actually doing? What can weactually build? How can we
actually think about doingthings differently? What kind of
world are we imagining? And itreally takes a vivid imagination
to get there, because the worldwe live in just seems so
unavoidable that I think thework of I think in this book,
like the work of the poetry,really is to settle into us in a
(03:38):
different form than just simplyanalysis or critique or
discussion, you know, findingart forms that can expand our
minds and hearts. So that's wasreally I was hoping to achieve.
Joshua Johnson (03:54):
As you grew up north London, you said you spent
a few years in Belfast, youlived in Florida. You're now
living in Asheville, NorthCarolina. You've lived in pretty
diverse places, but places whereyou may be confronted with what
the world is trying to give you,even with London and Belfast,
(04:17):
Florida, North Carolina, arethere any common themes that you
see this is the world is set upin a certain way that is
fighting against us humans.
David Gate (04:28):
Well, what if I'm really starting to get a little
political and to really hone in,I think it's the system we live
in, is the capitalist system,which is the same in London and
Florida and Belfast and NorthCarolina, and the expectations
of that system, how it demandsour lives and our bodies and our
(04:52):
time in order to function andreally only rewards those that
seem to be. The meanest or themost competitive, or the ones
that work 100 hours a week, andit's it's only willing to reward
what I would say is a moderatelydecent life to a very, very few
(05:14):
individuals, yet demands therest of us heed to it and bow to
it and serve it. And so thattinkles my my religious history,
and thinking about idolatry, andthinking about that this is just
isn't the way the world wasmeant to be, and how and how
we're made to be. And really, wehave all the resources to make
(05:37):
it a different way. It doesn'thave to be like this. And so,
yeah, I think that's consistentin all the places I've lived.
And I think, you know, it's thestory of Western culture
Joshua Johnson (05:47):
really well, we have, we have capitalism. You
know, Western Christianity is astaken a lot of that upon
themselves and decided to followa lot of institution and power
and hierarchy rather than embodythe ways of Jesus and the good
news that he brought, which is adifferent system, a different
(06:09):
power structure, than we findhere in the West, even in the in
the church today. Yeah, what aresome of the things that
fascinate you and that draw youto Jesus as somebody to show us
a better way to live in this
David Gate (06:28):
world in terms of the direction I've taken in
regards to my religious ideas,my political ideas, my ideas
about community and Sharing andcare, the way I approach art and
creativity all really stem fromwhat I learned about Jesus and
understood Jesus to be. So Ijust went far down that road.
(06:53):
You know, it is like people willsay, oh, Jesus was, you know,
loving and good and kind andcompassionate, but like you, if
you just keep going with thatthat leads you direct into
direct confrontation witheverything that is not gentle
and kind and generous and andgracious. And I just kept
following that, that path intoconfrontation, and continue to
(07:18):
and I think that's the way ofthe cross, you might say, or the
narrow road. I think if you area person that is captivated by
the teachings of Jesus and thelife of Jesus, then I think this
is the road for you, if
Joshua Johnson (07:36):
it is kindness and care in the midst of our
friendships, our relationships,our community, in the midst of
us being grounded to the earthto be with the land, in the
midst of figuring out how wecould cooperate and share
together. What is this care andkindness and why is it so
(07:56):
subversive to the crazycapitalist world that we live
in.
David Gate (08:00):
I think everything about this culture wants us to
feel like an individual. Soeverything is geared towards our
own personal well being,success, particularly success,
and so everything is shaped thatway. So particularly, you take
(08:22):
something that seems unrelatedto that, but like the reliance
on in America, on cars, is allabout us being able to go
wherever we want to go, wheneverwe want to go, and that I am
totally reliant. And the firstthing you do when you're a
teenager in America is you getyour driver's license, and then
you go and you'd be free. Andthere's like, there's a lot of
(08:43):
good about that, but it actuallywe've set up our cities and our
entire nation to not valuebusses and trains and public
transport. And so you get thefruit of that, which is that if
you cannot afford a car, or youcannot afford to fill it up
every week, or the monstrousinsurance, then you are at an
(09:03):
absolutely chronic disadvantagein American life, because the
entire you know, you can't getyour kids to school, you can't
get to work, you can't get tothe store. There's no walkable
neighborhoods you can count on,you know, most cities you can
count on one hand. So it'ssimple things like that make me
feel like everything is gearedtowards us as individuals, and
(09:24):
so then, like the rise oftechnology is just the rise of
social media has just reinforcedthat continually, that we are to
purchase our way to happinesswhere, where we need to buy the
best products. Feel moresatisfied from social media,
become the better influencer,get more followers, get more
(09:44):
likes, you know, present ourlife to the world in a certain
way. And so all of this is justactually isolates us. And so we
have this, I think, a gift ofthe internet and the gift of
social media in being that weare able now to connect. Act
more freely and more quicklythan we ever have in the history
of the human race, and yet wefeel more alone. And so it
(10:08):
really is this drive toisolation which makes us weaker,
makes us more depressed, andthat means we have less energy
then all that goes into our workand our jobs, and nothing's left
for our lives and nothing's leftfor our communities, and so we
have to kind of resist. This iswhy care is, you know, to
actually properly care foryourself and that, and then to
(10:29):
care for others is, is really aresistance to the way things
are, especially to care forothers, to actually spend time
being in committedrelationships, being there for
one another, sharing, you know,not everybody owning a lawnmower
and a drill and a saw. You sharethese things like, there's no,
(10:50):
there's no reason for us all toown everything. But it takes a
little time. It takesrelationships. It takes grace,
forgiveness, when they don'tbring back your chainsaw, when
you lend it to them, and youknow, like it, it takes
relationships and that energy,we have so little energy for
relationships and other peoplethat it is crushing us.
(11:13):
Dependency
Joshua Johnson (11:14):
is really difficult in a independent type
nation that America is thatvalues the the independence of
the the individual, that we cando everything and pull ourselves
up by our bootstraps and pressthrough and do hard things by
ourselves, the ruggedindividual. How have you found a
community to to fight againstthat, to resist that? That's
(11:38):
it's one of the most difficultthings, I think, to resist in
America, it's just really,really hard. Everything is
flowing one way of independenceand individualism. So what does
that look like for you? How dowe do
David Gate (11:52):
this? I think I'm speaking particularly to men,
but I think this applies towomen too. Is you have to be
able to be seen to be weak, andif you're not willing to be seen
to be weak and not, you know,self actualizing in every part
of your life, if you're notwilling to do that to be
(12:15):
perceived that way, then youwill never get over the your own
individualism. You know, you'llthe only way you'll ever accept
help is that absolute breakingpoint, or beyond breaking point,
when you're absolutely blown upyour life and and that's what we
see. That's the pattern we see,particularly in men, you know,
of not asking for help, notreaching out, not being willing
(12:36):
to be seen, to be weak and smalland able to not provide for
themselves and families and soforth. And so I think really,
that is the first step, becauseemotionally, then everything
comes from that. So once you'reable to become somewhat
comfortable with being perceivedas being weak or small or
insufficient, then you canactually proceed in a way where
(12:59):
you're not embarrassed, ashamed,hiding your dependence on
others. And once you do that,you then realize the extent that
you can actually help otherpeople. Because I think there is
a lot of compassion in thisworld. I think there's a lot of
people do want to help otherpeople, but often we don't know
what's going on in their lives.
Often, you know, we don't wantto patronize them, we don't want
(13:21):
to belittle them, we don't wantto make them feel weak or small
or or insignificant. And so we,we tend to stay out where we
could offer help and and I thinkreally, once those barriers are
down, emotionally to like, weaccept our place in the world
as, you know, fragile, finitebeings who don't have it all
(13:43):
together, all of us are justwinging it all of no one knows
what's what they're doing. And,you know, and hopefully, my
hope, is that people don't waituntil they're in their 50s, 60s
and 70s to work that out, and wecan maybe work it out a little
earlier. And and that really ishumility, like it is what it is.
It's accepting the finite natureof our lives. And once you do
(14:04):
that, then that's the doorway,then, I think, to actually
living a life of care foryourself and for others.
Joshua Johnson (14:14):
Today, we live in an anti institutional age. We
live in an age whereinstitutions are are breaking
and falling and saying that theyactually aren't caring for us
the way that we want them to.
Yeah, and so we're, we'retearing things down. It's, I
think it's an age of breaking.
But what, what I love about whatyou're trying to do is that we
(14:36):
have a breaking like we want torebel and kind of break the
system of of what's going onnow. But then there is this
building aspect, and part, whichhopefully we're going to get to
at some point, is like, is theregoing to be a better way
forward? Is there a place in thein the building aspect of what's
(14:59):
next? Is that institution andanti institution maybe come
together in a different in adifferent way, or a new way,
where we may need some, somelarge, you know, operations to
help us what? How does, how doyou see that fitting going
(15:19):
forward?
David Gate (15:20):
I think institutions are inevitable. I think we need
them. We build them. We have toomuch power hunger in our very
beings to not do that. We alsohave too we have too much will
to shape the world like we wantto shape the world. We want to
make it better. And so I thinkinstitutions are somewhat
(15:42):
inevitable, so I don't, and Ithink that's human nature. I
think most people generally wantto be led. You know, as well,
decision making is hard andtakes a lot of energy. Consensus
is difficult to get all thatstuff. So I think they are
inevitable. So I'm not reallyworking towards like, oh, I want
the entire human civilization tobe without hierarchy or
(16:05):
institution. I think that'simpossible, but I do want us to
approach that in a differentway, and the way to approach
that is to see it as more finiteand as more transient, and that
these things are meant tochange, and they're meant to
change, you know, within ageneration. You know, when I
think about America and I thinkabout the Constitution, drew up
(16:25):
that document within years thatworking out, no, we didn't hear
it quite right. We need to makesome amendments, and we need to,
but when, why do we stopamending? You know, like, like,
when life changes and technologychanges and and values change,
and our understanding and ourknowledge increases so much like
so our knowledge and ourunderstanding of race and of
(16:48):
history and and all this hasvastly improved. And yet we have
not, we have not changed theConstitution with any more
amendments, however long, youknow. And so every institution
needs to stay changing, and thenwhen it starts to fail, we let
it die. And we don't just, likekeep going because, you know,
(17:09):
this is how we've always doneit, or we don't just keep going
because, oh, it still does a lotof good, you know, like, you can
let things fail and let the needrise up new things and and I
think if we get in technology,it's called, like, planned
obsolescence, right? Like it's,it's like, get getting rid of,
like, your old tech for newtech, like they plan it.
(17:31):
Whereas, you know, that's notgood from a from a capitalist
standpoint. But I do think of acertain planned obsolescence in
our in power structures is areally good thing. We need to
think that anytime we instituteany kind of power or power
structure, that this will notlast forever and that it will
die and it will change and itwill not fit future generations,
(17:56):
and future generations shouldhave total permission to start
again and use whatevercomposters fallen from the
ground, from from the thing thatused to grow, to grow something
new, and to talk about that fromthe beginning, and to talk
about, you know, this is, thisis the right thing for now, and
(18:16):
when it's not the right thinganymore, we'll do something
different. So that's kind of howI want us to approach it,
whatever we're organizing in adifferent in a different way.
Joshua Johnson (18:25):
I think, particularly, I think some
people of faith have a hard timewith change, saying that God is
is constant and the same, right?
And so if he's the same, weshould always just be the same.
How do you help people likeuncover and unveil what, what
does change look like, and whyis change good to move us into
(18:48):
better directions? I mean,there's, there's constant change
in the Bible. I know that, but Imean, some people are like,
okay, God's constant and thesame. I should we should stay
the same and we should neverchange, or we could go back to
what was better.
David Gate (19:06):
Yeah, you know, yeah. I mean, there's so many
biblical stories about notreturning and, you know, you go
somewhere new. One book that ison my mind because the author
recently died, is a book calledpraying the Psalms by by uh
Walter Brueggemann. And he sadlydied last week, and that was the
very first Walter Brueggemannbook I read, and it is about the
(19:31):
process of harmony, disruptionand return and and really that
happens, not just in peoplegroups, but in relationships as
well. There's harmony, there'sdisruption, and then some kind
of restoration, or some kind ofreturn, or some kind of moving
on, you know, like, you know,death and new life is a kind of
(19:54):
resurrection, is a kind ofreturn. So thinking about those
pro. Successes, and seeing howthat's in the Psalms, just
constantly, Psalms of harmony,sums of praise, songs of
disruption, and I don't knowwhere I am, and you know, like,
what's going on, and why haveyou forsaken me? And and then
songs and psalms of return. Andthat's really the story of
(20:17):
Scripture, and it's actually thestory of human civilization and
our individuals and humanrights. Like, if you have, I've
been, I've been with my partnerfor 25 years this year, and so,
like, it's that's constantlyhappening, harmony, disruption,
return, right? And that's justthe nature of relationships and
(20:41):
and I think if we can helppeople understand that that is
just the nature of all things,and why we don't like that isn't
I don't think, I thinkemotionally is not a god's the
same, so we must be the same, asmuch as I'm afraid of death and
I'm afraid of Death and I'mafraid of the great change
(21:02):
that's coming, you know, the thefinal transformation, you know,
one more, one moretransformation that's just
around the corner. And becausewe are afraid of that one
transformation, or that onetransformation happening to the
people around us, then we kindof cling so tightly onto the
thing we have now, or the thingwe used to have that we thought
(21:25):
was the best. And so, yeah, alot of that is, again, I'm
coming back to letting go,letting go of our God, like
obsessions with ourselves, andaccepting our place as a part of
nature and caught this life,yeah, part
Joshua Johnson (21:41):
of this, what you've given to the world. And I
think who we are, we're we'recreative beings. And this is
where we're meant to to createsome art and beauty and and
hopefully, you know, a lot ofpeople are creating destruction
and and we want to resist that,to create some beauty. One of
the things that I know you did,you know, in 2021, as you
(22:01):
started this, this project, hedidn't know it was a project. It
was something like, Hey, I'mjust gonna throw up a poem a
week on Instagram and see whathappens. It turned into a place
of rebellion, of care, and itturned into a place of
resistance. This is, oh, this isa common theme that I'm talking
about, but I don't think itstarted there. So for I just
(22:24):
want to know about the nature ofart, and is it, is art true art?
Is it generally subversive? Isit something that is showing us
what is underneath the the pileof crap that we live in? Like,
what like? What is this natureof arts, and how did it start to
unveil itself through yourpoetry?
David Gate (22:46):
I mean, art is a very broad and sometimes
nebulous thing that people canyou know, people have different
philosophies on art. My Myphilosophy is really truth
based. So I What compels meartistically to write and create
is not so much to make a prettything, though I do like pretty
(23:10):
things, but but to tell thetruth like that's what's the
compelling thing, I have to findways of getting what's inside
out and in conversation doesn'talways do that, and I have to
find things, things that I canmake and that can last, whether
that be a poem or a picture oran essay or a book that marks
(23:34):
certain moments in time, certainexpressions of truth and Again,
that changes over your life, butthat's the creative impulse for
me, is to say something that'strue, and to to my perspective,
and everyone's perspective is aunique one, and that the world
cannot have enough art, becausethe world cannot have enough
(23:57):
expression of of truth, and youdon't have to kind of come up
with the entire truth in everysingle piece of work you do, but
it has to express something thatis true. And I think when it is
something that is true, that'swhat resonates, that's what
connects us through art. That'swhen, you know, I can look at
(24:18):
Roth goes, paintings and and Ijust see these endless windows
and doors that he's paintingover and over again and, and it
makes me think about thresholds,and it makes me think about
what's on the other side. And itmakes me think about everything
I've been through already, allthe windows I've looked through,
(24:38):
and then I've gone to the otherside and, and here I am again.
And you know, this one's red,the last one was blue, and like,
it's, it's over and over again.
And that's what that art doesfor me. It it resonates
something true. And so that'swhat I'm trying to do in my work
all the time, is just to expresswhat I see is true in the forms
that I've been given and theforms. I've found the forms that
(24:59):
I'm good at, the ones that thebest. Grab what I'm willing to,
you know, wanting to put intothe world and just do my best
with it. And then you learn, asa artist, how to grow in that,
how to become more diligent inthat. You learn your craft. You
learn how to shape thingsbetter. You learn about form.
You learn about what works. Youlearn the rules, then you learn
(25:19):
how to break the rules, and youknow, all that stuff is just
artistic discipline. At thatpoint,
Joshua Johnson (25:26):
the discipline is an importance. I find it
fascinating for you as you lookback on your work after a year
of posting and find a commontheme. I mean, it was the my
wife and I just finished upabout a year of in a creative
cohort where we're creatingpieces and sharing them with
each other and getting feedbackand all that. And one of the
(25:46):
last exercises was to look backon everything you created and
see what actually popped up thecommon themes. And it was
fascinating that there was acommon theme in there. I mean,
mine was about breaking cyclesof of revenge and violence, of,
you know, of generational cyclesand cycles of subjugation. You
know, my wife's was really aboutthe care, care for marginalized
(26:10):
and the and the vulnerable. Ifind that important to know,
like, what is really underneaththe thing? What do I care about
and what do I value that was thevalue for me is now I could
actually see, oh, that may besomething that I could bring to
the world, because I've actuallydone this creative work. How did
(26:33):
you you move from just posting,what do you think is true, to
actually seeing a type of commontheme in your work, and wanting
it to bring that into the
David Gate (26:45):
world. I think it was a real shift over time,
probably over a 20 year period.
So from when I was a lateteenager, early 20s, white man,
boy with opinions, right? And soyou just, you just, it's opinion
based. And I've still gotopinions, got lots of them, but
over time, I realized that myopinions are nowhere near as
(27:08):
important as my values. And myvalues then begin to really
shape the opinion so you thenyou're not reacting to
everything that's going on inthe world. Then you're not
reacting to, you know you're notturning left and right, and
you're not having all thesecontradictory opinions so much
as you know they've they thenthings begin to make sense when
(27:29):
you begin to understand your ownvalue system. Now, for for
individuals, most of our valuesystems are inherited from
whatever religious upbringing,every family upbringing,
cultural upbringing, we have,and I think as an individual
then, but you have to look atthat and think, Well, I have to
decide, because not everything Iwas given was good, maybe a lot
(27:53):
of it was but, like, noteverything I was given was good,
so then I have to decide, whatis it that I'm going to value?
And, you know, and people,particularly Christians, don't
like doing that, because theyfeel like I've been handed this
Bible, and I have to thenconform my life to this Bible.
But I began to realize in my 30sthat, like, you can justify
(28:13):
basically anything you want todo through the Bible. So rather
than, like, go down that roadthat so many people I know, and
I think I went down this road aswell, of like, well, what does
the original Greek say? What wasthe intention of the author?
What was that, you know, like,we get into a very theological,
you know, really get intohermeneutics, you know, really
trying to pass out, what's theBible really trying to say? And
(28:34):
I would find that all thesepeople that were did, that were
still just doing, was still justreally, just justifying their
own cultural values, right?
Like, so I realized, Oh, that'snot the game. The game is to, is
to choose, is to look at thatBible and say, What do I want to
choose? And to certainly be opento, like, oh, I might be wrong.
(28:57):
Or like, there might be,there's, there's nuance, there's
complexity, there's things likethat. But like, really, to say,
Oh, I'm going to choose what Iwhat I value, these verses that
speak to me, these, these arethe psalms that speak to me
most. I'm going to go in thatdirection. And for me, that
really was the the words andlife of Jesus. And to have that,
you know, it was the Gospels,basically, particularly the
(29:21):
sermon on the mount and theBeatitudes. And, you know, from
a teaching standpoint, is that Idecided to prioritize that and
then see everything that Paulwrites through the lens of what
Jesus said, rather than theother way around. And and once I
kind of began to do that, it waslike, yeah, these are my values.
(29:41):
Like, this is, this is what Ivalue. This is how I want to be
in the world. And like so forme, writing poetry, moving away
from writing theology or writingopinion pieces, writing those
kind of essays where I was beingvery fair and reasonable and
trying to, you know, like makingargument. Some counter
arguments, and moving away fromall of that into, Oh, I'm gonna
(30:04):
talk like Jesus did, which ismore mysteriously than anyone
likes, and, you know, like andjust be. Just avoid like. I
avoid doctrines in my work. Iavoid statements of belief in my
work. Statements of value areall over my work, like so my
values are all over my work, butmy statements of beliefs and
doctrines, you know, I thinkyou'd be difficult to to really
(30:28):
piece together, you know, what Ibelieve theologically from my
work, and that's veryintentional. I do not want to do
that. I don't want to be intheological spaces. I want to be
in creative spaces, and forpeople who have open minds and
open hearts, and that's who I'mtalking to, have no time really
for doctrinal arguments
Joshua Johnson (30:49):
as we move forward in like a values based
community, is there a poem orsomething that you have written
that spoke to you and unveilsome of your some of your values
in in your work. Yeah,
David Gate (31:05):
this is one of my I'm gonna read this one. It's
one of my most popular ones asthe title of one of the
chapters, and it's called,friendship will save us. And so
there's a whole chapter in thisbook about friendship, and I
really put the emphasis on thewhen we're building communities,
it doesn't begin with the familyunit. It begins with our chosen
(31:27):
friendships. You know, the thefamily unit is really just where
we learn how to be good friends,like how we learn commitment,
how we learn forgiveness, butreally, those things have to
translate into friendships,otherwise we just have a
slightly healthy family unit,and that's useless to the world,
yeah. Like we really need tohave good friendships like that
is what will save us. That waswhat will bind us. That was what
(31:50):
will get us through. So this is,this is the poem, friendship
will save us. Friendship is whatwill save us. So fall deeply in
love with your friends, datethem, woo them, pursue them.
Mark your anniversaries,celebrate your victories. Take
care of their names when they'renot in the room. Create a space
(32:13):
for them where all truths aretender. For intimacy doesn't
have to be reserved for romance,and crushes do not belong only
to lovers, so don't hide it whenyou find a bona fide ride or
die.
Joshua Johnson (32:30):
I think friendship is so key. How do we
do this? And if we in thisloneliness epidemic that we have
where we don't know how to befriends, or we think that, you
know, hey, we have more socalled friends on social media
than we ever have before, but wedon't actually have your ride or
die. You don't have those peoplethat will actually save us. How
(32:54):
do we be vulnerable and be inrelationship with others?
David Gate (32:59):
I think it's really difficult. I think friendships
always difficult, but I thinkparticularly now it's, I think
COVID peeled back many of thelayers of friendships and
stripped us back and reallyforced us into isolation, and
it's been very difficult forpeople to break that spell. I I
(33:21):
do think it is possible, and notjust possible, absolutely
necessary. And people don't likethis, but you have to be the
friend that you want to see inthe world, and even if that
means you get rejected and like,you know, and if we're talking
in in terms of Christianresponses, like, that's the way
of Jesus. You know, you you, youact how you feel, like human
(33:44):
beings should act in the world,even if it means rejection. So
you put yourself out there. Youhelp others, you know. And yes,
is that like painful and costlywhere you don't get the same
return back from thosefriendships? But guess what?
That's just a capitalist way oflooking at relationships.
Looking at relationships, likethe transactional like, I help
(34:05):
you, you help me. I help youthis much. You help me that
much. You know, like I hate, Ihate watching friends online,
like Venmo each other for like,coffee and stuff like that. I
might just buy each other coffeelike, just, you know, like, can
I get it if your friends brokeor whatever? Like, I mean, that
I'm not saying that every timeyou Venmo someone for coffee,
(34:28):
that's bad. I'm just saying,like, we should, we should. We
can't be in transactionalrelationships, right? So we
can't, we can't be inrelationships where we think of
and like, I mean, obviously wecan't be in truly one way
relationships either, like, whenpeople are not giving you
anything back and they're justtaking, taking, taking, like,
that's not healthy either. Butno, I think like it, you have to
(34:51):
understand that if you're gonnaventure this brave new world in
the in our COVID, isolatedtechnological terms, that you.
You're going to have to give andnot get everything back that
you've given, and that's okay,and that's how relationships are
built and formed. That's howtrust is built and formed. The
(35:12):
other thing I think is reallyimportant, and I think it's a
huge problem in my generation,is flakiness and so not showing
up canceling. Like we all jokeabout it. Oh, we love it when
people cancel. And, you know,like, we all love it, you know,
to have another evening at home,you know, doing the exact same
thing we did yesterday, watchingstreaming shows and eating ice
(35:36):
cream. And, you know, likehaving a wine at six o'clock.
And you know, like, we all likethat, and we all feel like we
need it, and I get it, but like,you have to show up your
friends. You have to turn up fortheir gigs. You have to go to
their you know, shows. You haveto, when they say, let's grab a
coffee. You grab a coffee. Youknow, you commit. Like, once
(35:58):
you've we're just so willing toflake, I think, and and that
hurts. And so that would be an,I think, number one thing you
could turn around tomorrow isjust don't flake. Just when,
when you say you're going tomeet someone, just show up and
meet them. Like showing up is somuch of life like, you know, you
show up for your friends, youshow up for your art, you show
(36:20):
up for the things you value. Youshow up for your community.
Like, if you can just keepshowing up, you don't even have
to be good at any of this and begood at Friendship. You have to
be good at art. You don't haveto be good at community
building. But if you keepshowing up, it will get built
and it will happen, right? So,like, that is the number one you
you just got to show up. Youcan't be
Joshua Johnson (36:39):
flaky. This is the hardest thing in America, is
show up for each other, but whenwe do, we feel so much better
than if we just stayed home andwe watched a streaming show,
which I love, streaming shows,so I want to actually just talk
about a streaming show right nowand talk about andor. I was
listening to Tony Gilroy, whocreated andor wrote it, one of
(37:02):
the things that he says hethinks that one of his through
lines and of values in all ofhis work that he has done is the
importance and value ofcommunity and how community will
actually help transform us, andthis is what we need. I know you
wrote, you have a great subsetarticle on andor. I just, I love
(37:25):
that article, and I love whatyou say about what what this
rebellion actually is, and howit actually takes all of us,
how, what do we see in andor,this weird Star Wars without
lightsabers, type of of showthat can is just resonant with
all of our lives at the moment.
What do we what do we start tolearn? Give, give me some andor
(37:47):
love
David Gate (37:50):
and or season one was incredibly coagulating for
my book, and I had started, II'd watched season one, I think
it came out in 22 and so I hadwatched it, and I was already
writing, like, in thatdirection. And then after I got
the book deal, and I knew, like,Oh, this is actually happening,
(38:12):
like, I went and re watched itnow, you know, because I think
my kids hadn't seen it. And sowe sat down and we watched it
together. And so I watched itthrough the second time, and it
emotionally just where, youknow, we were. I think this was
2023, and so like, you know,there's an election coming up,
and you know, it's like just themoments we were finding
ourselves in. I just found it soresonant for both the time we're
(38:35):
in and for my work, inparticular about forming
rebellion. And so that was whenreally, I started to think, oh,
I need to lean into therebellion aspect of this, and it
not just be about, you know,like, because I think so I write
about care a lot. I write aboutfriendship a lot. I write about
looking after yourself, a lot,you know, looking after your
body, looking after your mind,your spiritual life. Like, all
(38:57):
those things can lean wellness,right? Like, so all those things
can lean towards a certain justlook after yourself, you know
you're you've got this, you knowyou're that kind of way of being
in the world. And I didn't wantto do that. I wanted to really
lean into the into rebellion andcommunity and and how to marry
those things together. So and orwas incredibly formative. One of
(39:19):
the chapters is named after aline from the from the show.
There's at least one actual linefrom andor that I put in the
last poem of the books in there.
And so and I was listening tothe soundtrack as I was writing
some of that stuff. And sohugely important. I think andor
as a show is an absolutemiracle. Like to have this
(39:42):
Disney produced Star Wars showthat is so willing to get into
the difficult a nature ofbuilding and forming rebellions
against Empire is it's just. Isamazing. It is so well written.
The characters are so wellformed. It it's, I don't think
(40:04):
you need to know anything aboutStar Wars to enjoy it, like if
you just like good TV. Thewriting and acting and direction
is so good, you know, especiallyif you have any kind of politics
that leans towards therebellious rather than the
Empire, like I I think it willall resonate for you. But if you
(40:24):
do have a little bit of StarWars in you, and you do like a
little star wars, then it's justa dream come true. It's like,
it's like everything that I everwanted, you know, and I've
adored it. And then season two,which just came out after I
finished the Bucha, you know,and it's as good as good as
season one, and that they, theywrapped it up so perfectly, and
very emotional, very inspiring,you know? And then, you know, we
(40:48):
record, I don't know when thispodcast being released, but
we're recording this the firstweek of June, and there's the
response in LA that's happeningnow to protest towards ice. And
you're just seeing the samething, seeing these armed guards
turning up, you know, these themilitary showing up to protests
and sparking violence in orderto justify further violence. And
(41:12):
we live in, we live on Gormanlike that's where, where we are,
and that's what we're seeing.
It's, it's perfectly at thismoment. So I found it very, very
informative and inspiring. It
Joshua Johnson (41:28):
is. So how do we do that then? So there were, as
we stand up, as we rebel againstthe Empire. So even now, as
saying, hey, these these ICEraids that are just going to
take people away without dueprocess at all, which is part of
what's supposed to be. Part ofour value system in America, is
that people have some dueprocess. So we're rebelling
(41:51):
against something that we thinkis incredibly unjust and
shouldn't happen, rebellingagainst the Empire. How do we do
that without becoming Empireourselves. I think that's this
is, I think this is the thenature of rebellion is it
becomes Empire at times. Can westop becoming the Empire
(42:12):
ourselves?
David Gate (42:13):
Yeah, I do think the only way to do that is to let go
of power once you've got it. Andwhich I, I think, for me, is one
of the most compelling thingsabout Jesus, Christ. And so, you
know, once he had formed anabsolute horde of people
following around, he justrealized that this isn't good,
and started shedding followers,left, right and center, saying
(42:35):
things that would frustrate themand annoy them and confound
them. And then even when heenters Jerusalem, you know, and
it's make way, and it's, youknow, palm leaves, and it's
riding on a donkey, he's makingthis massive political
statement, you know, and he'skind of coalesced a movement at
that point, like, even if hewasn't meaning to, like, there's
(42:56):
this moment where he couldreally ratchet it up
politically, and what he does isspends that week saying the most
difficult things that he says,and just absolutely shedding
followers until he's left alone.
He has become so dangerous thateven his friends deny it. And so
I do think like that is the wayto avoid becoming Empire
(43:21):
yourself, is to stay so true toyour values and so true to your
perception of world that you arenot blinded by the ability to
shape the world into your image,but instead you, you, you let it
go, and you die when it's yourtime to die, and you embrace
that, and you, you move overwhen it's your turn to move
(43:42):
over. And I think you have tomodel that and display that for
other people, and not try andcontrol it, not thinking, well,
if I move over, someone worsewill take over. You know, like
if I move over, it won't be asgood. If I if I move over, then
the things that I've institutedwill fall and die. Everything
falls and dies like it. You haveto be able to willing, to let it
(44:03):
go. And do I think that's goingto happen? Like, say, if you
know, like the rebellions inthis country, you know, I say we
get a populist left wingmovement that takes over the
powers of government? Do I thinkit's going to take that road of
letting go? Probably not. That'sthe history of the human race.
But I think the good peoplewill, I think the bravest of us
(44:23):
will and will leave a morepowerful legacy because of it.
And you know, going back to StarWars, going back to the the
original Star Wars and new hope.
And you know, Obi Wan realizingthat he's gonna become more
powerful than Vader can everimagine, by displaying to Luke
(44:47):
that what you do is you give upyour life and and so he just
gives up in the fight and givesup in the fight and just dies.
And therefore becomes morepowerful, inspiring both Luke
and Leia, which the first timein. Luke and era together in
their lives and displays thisway of giving up, which then
Luke then models later on invery controversial movie. Which
(45:12):
I love that movie, The LastJedi. But like I know it's
Unknown (45:15):
very I love the last Jedi. Yes, I know it is, but I
love the last, and
David Gate (45:19):
I like the way he comes through his own path to
that same conclusion that ObiWan comes to, that the way to
model it to Ray is to lose hisown life and and to disappear
into the force. And that's allany of us can do. So the way you
avoid becoming an empire, theway you know, the way you avoid
becoming the thing you hate isto disappear into the force
Joshua Johnson (45:42):
that is so hard.
I pray that we can get there,and we can actually embody these
ways of Jesus and Obi Wan Kenobiin in our lives. And you know,
figured this, this thing out.
David, if you could talk to, youknow, people pick up rebellion
of care. This book. Read yourpoetry. What hope do you have
for for your work and the peoplewho read it?
David Gate (46:05):
My real hope with with the person who picks up
this book, is that they see thata rebellion of care is is right
there and present in their inthe very lives they have now. So
it's not that you have toradically change your life. It's
not that you have to suddenlybecome someone different, adopt
some new principles, you know,like that. Really, almost
(46:27):
everyone who picks up this bookwill have principles of love and
care and compassion already, youknow, and will believe that art
changes things and friendshipchanges things. These are not
like new ideas, particularly assuch. And so what I was hoping
this book does is that it reallyinspires you, that this life is
within your hands already. It isthe life you already have. Is
(46:49):
what you already value. You justneed to become radicalized into
the life you already have, andnot just let it passively slip
you by, but like to actuallylive truly to what you already
believe.
Joshua Johnson (47:04):
Good couple real quick questions at the end. One,
if you go back to your 21 yearold self, what advice would
David Gate (47:09):
you give? I would keep writing. Don't stop writing
and keep sharing. It like soI've always written. I didn't
ever stop writing, but I didstop sharing. I did stop because
I didn't get all of the externalaffirmation that I needed to
(47:29):
bolster my confidence. I think Iwould really encourage my 21
year old self to like you don'tneed the external validation.
You just need to keep sharing,and eventually you'll find your
people. You'll eventually findpeople who appreciate your voice
and your voice resonates withthem, but the only way to do
(47:50):
that is to keep putting it outand being and risk looking weak
and small and useless and notvery good at writing. Because,
guess what, you're not very goodat writing, and so we're like,
that's that's okay, that's justpart of the process. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (48:05):
great. Anything you've been reading or watching
lately, you could recommend. I'm
David Gate (48:08):
currently reading book called we tell ourselves
stories, which is a book byAlyssa Wilkinson, who is a film
critic for the New York Times,but she has written this book
about Joan Didion, and aboutJoan Didion, particularly Joan
Didion's relationship withHollywood, because she was a
(48:29):
screenwriter herself. She livedin hot she lived in LA and the
LA area, and was part of thatworld and but was also a film
critic herself. And so herrelationship with that and the
relationship with Hollywood andpower. What I love about Joan
Didion, and Joan Didion wassomeone I really lent on for
these essays, is she's just, shejust told the truth. So she
(48:52):
wasn't really an analyst and shewasn't really a commenter, as
much as she just she observedand she told the truth that she
saw it, and that was mostpowerful about her writing. And
so that's what I have tried.
I've tried more and more toadopt into my own writings just
to tell the truth or how I seethe world, and let that be the
(49:14):
power, rather than like tryingto convince someone or
something. There's not reallymuch convincing going on in Joan
Didion's work and so, so I lovethis book. This book is, is
phenomenal. I really enjoyingit. So
Joshua Johnson (49:30):
I loved we tell ourselves stories. It's good. I
was able to interview Alyssaabout it on the podcast, and
it's fantastic book. It wasreally good. I'm a fan. Yeah,
good recommendation, yeah. Goodrecommendation, yeah. A
rebellion of care should beavailable anywhere books are
sold and go and yeah, get it isthere anywhere particularly
(49:53):
you'd love to point people to tobe able to get it, or how could
they connect with you?
David Gate (49:57):
Yes. So if you're going to buy the book, I would
love it if you bought. From yourlocal indie bookstore. I That's
how I that's how I drive. I'mnot really an Amazon guy. If
you're not from the Empire,well, I mean, like, you know,
I'd rather you buy it than not,but I would rather you spend the
extra dollar, or whatever it isto get it from your local
bookstore. If you want a signedcopy, or you don't have a local
(50:20):
bookstore that you want tosupport, you can support you can
support my local bookstore,which is called malaprops in
Asheville, North Carolina, andthey have signed copies. And you
can order one of those signedcopies online, and if you pre
order, it comes with a print,yeah. And then I'm just online,
David gate poet.com if you wantto buy any of my prints or
stickers. I went on Instagram atDavid gate poet and my sub
(50:41):
stack, which I'm really devotinga lot of time and energy into
writing something I think goodand worthwhile every week. I'm
really giving it my all to writein these trying times every week
and give people something tocling to and something to
hopefully inspire and challengeand all of that stuff. So that's
(51:03):
you can find me in sub stack
Joshua Johnson (51:04):
too. Excellent.
Well, David, thank you. I lovethis conversation. It was such a
joy to connect and to have thisconversation with you. And I'd
love to finish and end thisconversation with a poem. If you
have one more in. Yeah, yes, Ido. It would be great for you to
read a poem as we head out fromour conversation.
David Gate (51:26):
Okay, so this is really a poem about what I was
talking about, that you find therebellion of care in your own
life, okay, and in the verysmallness and ordinariness of
your own life. And this iscalled the font this kitchen
sink, the font of my home, wherebread pans soak and milk bottles
(51:48):
swirl, where we wash paint potsand brushes in the aftermath of
craft, where salad leaves rinseto be rid of bugs and soil,
where I clean The abrasions ofmy working hands and all the
blood from the little cuts ofconstant use in repetition and
never ending chore, I come tothese sacred waters daily to
(52:13):
baptize the entirety of my holylife. Beautiful. Thank
Joshua Johnson (52:19):
you. Thank you.
What a great conversation. Lovedit. So thank you, David, thank
David Gate (52:23):
you so much. You.
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