Karen Swallow Prior returns to the podcast to help us rethink what calling really is. It's not a passion we chase or a dream we conjure up, but something that comes from outside of us. Something we respond to. We talk about the slow work of vocation, how it shifts over time, and why pursuing what’s true, good, and beautiful in ordinary life might be the most faithful thing we can do. This conversation is for anyone in the middle of change, trying to find their way, or wondering if the work they’re doing still matters. There’s room for all of it here.
Karen Swallow Prior, Ph.D. is a popular writer and speaker. A former English professor, Karen is now a contributing writer for The Dispatch and a columnist for Religion News Service. Her writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Atlantic, Vox, The Washington Post, Christianity Today, and many other places. Her most recent book is You Have a Calling: Finding Your Vocation in the True, Good, and Beautiful (Brazos 2025).
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen Swallow Prior (00:00):
We can also just luxuriate in the everyday
(00:05):
world, in ordinary work, in lifewith our among our neighbors and
our family members. That iswhere most of the truth,
goodness and beauty in the worldis to be found, and that is what
will draw us closer to God anddraw others to him as well. You
Hello
Joshua Johnson (00:33):
and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in
which we have conversationsabout the culture we create and
the impact we can make. We longas the body of Christ look like
Jesus, I'm your host. JoshuaJohnson, our culture tells us to
look inward, to find ourselvesKaren, swallow prior returns to
offer a counter narrative, onethat reminds us that calling is
not something we invent, butsomething we receive. It's not
(00:56):
simply about chasing passion orcrafting a personal brand. It's
about listening, discerning andresponding to the voice that
calls us toward what is true,what is good and what is
beautiful. Karen helps usreimagine vocation as a lifelong
invitation into meaningful work,quiet faithfulness and a deeper
communion with God. We explorethe shifts that take place
(01:18):
across the lifetime, the lettinggo of dreams that no longer fit,
the rediscovery of purpose inunexpected places, the beauty of
a calling that evolves. We talkabout work, scarcity, abundance,
suffering, integrity and thesacredness of everyday life.
This isn't a roadmap with sixeasy steps to find your purpose.
It's a thoughtful reflection onhow God shapes us over time,
(01:41):
through community and how eventhe most ordinary moments can
become holy when rooted intruth, goodness and beauty. Here
is my conversation with Karenswallow prior Karen, welcome
back to shifting culture. Reallyexcited to have you back on.
It's great to be back. Thankyou. I'm excited to go in deep
into calling and vocation, whatis true and good and beautiful.
(02:04):
So I wanted to start with thethe title of your your book, and
we could just jump in fromthere. It says you have a
calling, which is title yourbook, finding your vocation in
the true, good and beautiful. Soit sounds like vocation and
calling are pretty tiedtogether. What is that for you?
Vocation and calling. What doesthat look like?
Karen Swallow Prior (02:27):
Yeah, so I mean in the book, I use the
words interchangeably, becauseand the main thing that I say
about them is that they bothrequire being called by someone
or something outside ofourselves. So a lot of times,
you'll hear people talk aboutfeeling like they have a
calling, or feeling called,which you know that I understand
(02:50):
what they mean by that. Butoften that's talking about a
passion, a desire that we have,and ideally in an ideal world,
what we desire to do, and whatwe have a passion to do are this
is the same thing that assomething that we're called to
do by other, by others. But thatdoesn't always happen. And so in
the book, I talk about that, andI'm drawing on decades of
(03:12):
teaching college age studentswho, you know, are asking these
questions, but also getting alot of distorted messages, I
think, from the culture aboutwhat our work and our callings
look like, and how our desiresand passions fit into those but
it's not just college age peoplewho are wrestling with these
questions. More and more peoplemy age and younger and older,
(03:36):
you know, mid career or end ofcareer, are grappling with these
questions in a very rapidlychanging world. And so my basic
argument is that we have, youknow, callings come from outside
of ourselves. And we havemultiple callings over the
course of our life, and theyshift and take different forms
and sometimes even end
Joshua Johnson (03:53):
that right there. That calling is going to
come outside of ourselves isreally difficult in this late
modern age that we live in,because everything comes from
within, like I'm gonna find whoI am, I'm gonna discover myself,
and I'm gonna discover mypassion, and then I could live
out of that. I want to just knowabout your journey. What did it
look like to follow vocation andcalling, and what did it look
(04:16):
like coming from outside ofyourself, and maybe through
community and God and andothers, rather than just finding
something from within yourself,like so many tried to do these
days.
Karen Swallow Prior (04:27):
Yeah, and you know, it really is, and I
didn't use this in the book,it's just occurring to me now.
It really is kind of a dance,right? One partner is that the
inner desire and passions andabilities that we have, the
dance partner is the callingthat comes from outside. And so
the dances can look different,and they can be beautiful, or
they could be clumsy, or theycould be awkward. And so for me,
(04:51):
I, you know, as a young person,even though it was a long time
ago, I still am a person of theof the late modern age. And so I
pursued my passion. Passion forreading literature and studying
English and language, I had nodesire to teach. In fact, I
decided I did not want to be ateacher. I wanted to be many
(05:11):
things, but not a teacher. Butwhen I entered the PhD program
to pursue my passion of readingand studying literature, that is
when I accidentally orprovidentially discovered,
because I had an opportunity totry it that I discovered I was
created to teach. I lovedteaching. I loved classroom
teaching. I still love teaching.
And when I you know, as asusual, when I finished my PhD, I
(05:32):
went on the job market. It wasnot a good job market. Then it's
even worse now. But I gotcalled. I got the call from the
Dean, and then I had a, youknow, 25 year teaching career.
Joshua Johnson (05:47):
I mean, for you, you're having 25 year teaching
career, moving in and out now,in the last, you know, five, six
years as you have, what doesthat shift look like? How did
you say, Oh, this calling may bea little different, but some of
what I am called to be in thisworld has been the same. Yes,
(06:08):
how do we navigate
Karen Swallow Prior (06:09):
that? Yeah, I love how you put that because,
and I put it that way at pointsin my book, that calling is not
just about what we do, but it'sabout who we are as a way of
being. And so even though I havegone out of the formal classroom
as a teacher, I mean, I dovisiting posts now and then. I
do different kinds of teaching,but I'm not a full time academic
(06:33):
any longer, I still teach. Istill believe that is my call.
My writing is teaching, myspeaking is teaching, my
visiting posts are teaching soit has taken a different form
than it did before. So that canhappen for us in a variety of
ways over the course of life.
Joshua Johnson (06:50):
Yeah. I mean, if I'm just looking at your sub
stack and the things that youare writing, you are teaching,
you're helping us navigatedifferent different works of
literature and different placesso that we can engage well,
you're, you're teaching, andyou're, you're a good teacher,
and you're somebody that youknow people want to follow,
because we're going to actuallylearn something from you. And so
(07:13):
I love seeing your calling playout on different stages in your
own life, which is fun to seethink about work. So a lot of
people, when we think of any anytype of work today, we think, I
need to follow my passion. Ihave to love what I do.
Sometimes work is going to bework, and we're going to have to
do it. Where did work come from?
What is work and why is it goodfor us to have work?
Karen Swallow Prior (07:38):
Work is part of God's original plan for
us as human beings, even beforethe fall, when God created Adam
and then Eve in the garden, hecalled them to work, to be his
co laborers, really, instewarding creation and caring
for creation, and they weredoing that before, Before the
(08:00):
Fall, Adam was tasked withnaming the animals I cite in the
book. One of my favoritedescriptions of work before the
fall is from John Milton'sParadise Lost, where he depicts
Adam and Eve working in thegarden, and the work that they
have to do is defined byabundance, because the garden is
so rich and full. But they haveto lop and prune and and cut and
(08:21):
trim and cultivate even beforethe fall. And of course, we all
know, because we've all livedafter the fall that we it's,
it's our work now. It has manydifferent kinds of obstacles.
Yeah, it's still part of God'soriginal plan for us. And so I
think even though work is hardand it's not always something
that we love, it is good, and itis, it is God's original call
(08:43):
for us, because we are workingwith him to serve our neighbors
and to serve our our familiesthrough our work, whatever that
might be.
Joshua Johnson (08:52):
So when I think of toil, I think moving in after
the fall and work, I'm thinkingso many people have a scarcity
mindset that I have to, I haveto work really hard to get what
is, is ours, so we could providefor our family. We could get and
there are limited resources inthis world. So, you know, this
is why we have wars and nationstates, is we just fight for
(09:17):
limited resources, but in thekingdom and and creation. You
know, Milton's talking aboutabundance. God had said there is
an abundance. There is there ashift that we need to take in
our work of knowing that in thekingdom of God there may be
abundance and God is good. Ourwork is good, and God is for us.
(09:38):
And I think abundance andscarcity. I think one is one of
the biggest problems in thisworld. How do we reframe that
and shift that perspective for
Karen Swallow Prior (09:48):
us? Yeah, I mean, of course, we have to
understand that God's provisionis infinite and eternal, and he
never runs out of the goodthings for us. That's obviously
not true of the world.
Particular things in the world,and so I think it does depend on
what we have our eyes on, andthe reason why that showed up
the way that it does in my book.
(10:09):
I mean, I think it's animportant idea, but it was
personal for me, and I don'tknow that I put this in there or
not, but when I was reaching theend of my vocation as a
classroom professor andconsidering what I might do
next, I talked with a goodfriend of mine about an
opportunity I had that I wasn'tsure if it was a good fit. And
(10:30):
he just said, don't make adecision out of a scarcity
mindset. Don't just do thisbecause you think your
opportunities will be scarcenow. And that just stuck with
me, because I didn't realize Iwas even doing that, and so that
made me look at everythingdifferently. Like, yes, there
may you know, as I said a fewminutes ago, the academic
(10:54):
environment has changed greatly,and jobs are scarcer, and
scarcer schools are closing. Sothat is not necessarily a good
time in our culture right now.
There for, you know, manyacademic appointments just like
you know, the car industrychanged half a century ago.
Things do shift and change, butopportunities in general, and
and the ability to use our giftsand our our talent and our time
(11:18):
and our service and our work forour neighbors and for the glory
of God will never end. Sosometimes we just have to take
our eyes off the thing thatwe've had our eyes on for a
while and look up and see whatelse is out there. Because those
opportunities are infinite.
Joshua Johnson (11:36):
So hard to look up, and it's really hard we look
interiorly so often, and so it'sso, so difficult. So if I'm
looking at like, what you did,and you're teaching college
students, you know, if my workwith high school college
students in the past, when Iasked somebody, would you like
to know God's call on your life?
Would you like to know whatyou're supposed to do?
(11:58):
Everybody's like, yes, what am Isupposed to do? I want to know
this. So practically, what doesit look like? How do we start to
discern some of this calling andour true vocation for us in
relation to the caller?
Karen Swallow Prior (12:14):
Now, that is such a good question, and I
will say at the outset that Idon't have a formula or a six
step plan in the book to follow,oh, man, yeah, I don't have
God's phone numbers. You cancall him up and say, Hey, God,
what am I supposed to do? I wishit were that easy. But I think
what you know, what I you knowwhen I first kind of say, is the
world and the field are wideopen, right? I mean, there are
(12:36):
things in God's moral law and inour circumstances that obviously
shut some things off, somethings we shouldn't do because
they're wrong, and then otherthings that we can't do because,
you know, God created me to befive foot three, so I'm not
going to be a WNBA player,right? I mean, so there are
limitations, but the limitationsreally went again when you're
(13:00):
thinking about abundance andinfinity and eternity are are
just so very few. It's like thattree in the garden, the one, the
two trees from which we couldnot eat, and yet all the rest
were there. That's That's whatvocation and calling look like.
And so I do think we have to begood stewards of the
(13:21):
circumstances and opportunitiesGod places us in the abilities
and opportunities that he givesus. Like some, some people have
an opportunity to go to collegeand get a college degree and be
good stewards, and they shoulddo that if that's, you know, if
that's where their skill set is.
And yet, other people have otheropportunities, and so we want to
steward those well. And then wewant to be in community. We want
(13:44):
to be around people who can tellus things about ourselves that
we might not see, the thingsthat we're good at that we might
not recognize, maybe even peoplehonest enough to say, you know,
you're not really that good atthis, or I don't think you'd be
happy doing this. I've had, Ihave had many people in my life,
at certain times, say, You knowwhat, I don't think you'd enjoy
(14:06):
doing this. This would kill you.
This would be the death of youand and that has been good, good
wisdom for me. So those are allthe things that God uses in our
lives, our circumstances, ourour talents, our opportunities,
and the people around us who canspeak into our lives to help us
discern what our calling mightbe, and we don't have to live in
(14:27):
fear that we're going to missthe one calling, because there
are multiple callings, and Godcan use a circuitous paths to
bring us around to, you know,something he may have have
intended for us that we took asideways route to get to, and
that's okay. Also, what
Joshua Johnson (14:45):
happens? So I'm just, I'm thinking of some
people in my life, so whathappens if, if they have been in
a place where they really, trulybelieve this is my calling, it's
also my sweet spot, like it'sthe place that I feel. Like I
was made for, and for somereason, we got called somewhere
(15:05):
else, and we're doing something,but we still long and pine for
the place that we feel like wewere made for. But it's a it's a
new, new life and a new world,and we're not satisfied yet,
even though we know we werecalled and we know that it was
the next thing. How do we beokay that calling shifts, even
(15:30):
if you're giving up somethingthat was good? Yeah,
Karen Swallow Prior (15:34):
I mean, I have been there and I'm probably
still, sort of still in thattransition of giving up
something that I thought that Iwas made to do and doing
something different. And thereis some of us adjust to change
more quickly than others. I donot adjust to change easily. I
want everything to be the sameevery day, but that seldom
happens. And so I think we giveourselves grace for the
(15:58):
disappointment, the pain, thelonging, you know, but we also,
we also give God grace, right?
We also say, you know, God, youdo have something else for me.
And every there is nothing inthis world that is perfect. So
we are going to give up somethings. But nothing is is, you
know, completely perfect. And sothere will be some, some
negative part of that thing wegave up that will, we should be
glad that we got to say goodbyeto and then the new things in
(16:22):
front of us have positivethings, even if we are still
struggling with some of the thenegative, negative aspects of
change or loss and so and thenthat, for me, I just because,
again, we haven't really talkedabout this, but my background is
literature. I was an Englishprofessor. I don't even know you
know, why am I writing aboutthis? Well, for many reasons,
but reading literature widelyfor for many years, has helped
(16:47):
me to see my own place in thehuman story and how privileged
it is and what a blessing it Imean, most people who have lived
on this earth have not had theability to make this choice or
that choice, or pursue thiscareer or that career that most
people have just had to find,you know, provide for their
(17:08):
families, find health and safetyand shelter, and we're kind of
spoiled as Americans. I'll takeit. I'm thankful for it, but we
still have to keep thatperspective that this is a very
limited time in human historywhere we have so many choices
and so many options, and takingthe broader perspective to
(17:28):
understand the kinds of thingsthat our brothers and sisters in
Christ over the years have gonethrough, and just the rest of of
humans who've lived in history,just it just, I think we need
more perspective.
Joshua Johnson (17:41):
That reminds me, I don't know if you've read
Claire Keegan small things likethese. It's one of my favorites.
It's one of my favorite books,and I love the movie from last
year as well. An Irish coalminer working really hard
providing for his family. Reallydoesn't feel like this is really
a passionate job. Is just ahard, gritty job that he has to
(18:04):
do to provide is and the wholetown doesn't look pretty.
There's a lot of ugliness there,but he pursues something that
looks true and good andbeautiful. And so even taking
something like that, and hispursuit of that, even in the
midst of ugliness and grittinessand difficulty and his work and
(18:25):
his job, what does it look likefor us? Then you're using this
framing device of true good andbeautiful so what is that true
good and beautiful work looklike even in the midst of a coal
miner in Ireland and you know,the early 1900s
Karen Swallow Prior (18:39):
Oh yeah, no. I love that. You use that
example, and I'll avoid all thespoilers, but you described it
perfectly. It really is someabout someone living a hard life
that does not look glamorous andfun and yet finding pursuing the
true, the good and beautiful inhis life, and blessing others
and his family through that.
Okay, that's my spoiler. And soyes, that kind of perspective,
(19:01):
because that's something else Icover in the book, is just how
our attitudes about work, evenin modern America, have changed
dramatically in just threegenerations. It's been different
for each generation. And so myargument is simply that wherever
we are, whatever ourcircumstances, if we are
pursuing the true, the good andbeautiful, in our daily lives,
(19:23):
in our work, in ourrelationships, in whatever jobs
we might have, in whatevercareers we might pursuing,
whatever vocations we're tryingto discern, if we pursue
goodness, truth and beauty, thenwe are fulfilling our callings.
And you know, I try to just makesome practical application to
that, because even that sounds alittle ethereal, but at least it
(19:45):
breaks it down into, you know,at least three, three slightly
smaller parts.
Joshua Johnson (19:51):
So let's break down those, those parts, what
is, what is truth, and why we'repursuing truth?
Karen Swallow Prior (19:58):
Yeah, such a small question. Right? Very
small question. Well, you know,one of the points that I make in
this chapter on truth is, youknow, Christians today are
really good about at talkingabout what we used to be really
good at talking about truth. Wecared a lot about truth, and I
care a lot about truth, don'tget me wrong, but I think we've
(20:18):
been limited even in the waythat we think about truth. It's
always about doctrine orabsolute truth, universal truth,
and those things are good. Buteven in the material, physical
world, there is truth we need tounderstand, in other words, like
reality. So if we have a visionor dream or desire to do or be
something, we need to know thatthe reality of what is entailed
(20:41):
in that job, in that lifestyle,all the requirements of it, we
need to have a true vision ortrue understanding of simply
what it entails. And so that'swhy we try things, and that's
why, you know, it's good to dothat. But we live in so many
things are distorted in thisdigital age. We see, you know,
we have, you can sit down infront of a cable a television
(21:04):
show and watch, you know, themost dangerous jobs, or the most
whatever, whatever jobs, andeverything looks like. It's it's
fun and exciting, and you onlysee a tiny percentage of what it
really looks like. And so wehave to recognize the reality of
the world. So that's onepractical application that I
talk about in terms of truth.
The reverse of that is knowingthe truth about ourselves,
(21:25):
right? Knowing, are we reallygood at this thing? I mean, you
know, we could think of someonewho's a really bad singer and
just, you know, gets up andalways wants to sing in front of
people, and that's maybe alittle bit humorous and sad, but
think about the people, becausewe've all had them in our lives,
the people who were in positionsof some kind of pastoring or
teaching and should not havebeen in those positions, right?
(21:50):
So it can be very dangerous toall of us and also keep a person
from finding out what theyreally are good at and what
their true calling is if they'rejust pursuing something that
really is not their calling.
Joshua Johnson (22:04):
So then, what's the difference then, between my
truth and the truth aboutmyself?
Karen Swallow Prior (22:09):
Oh, because the truth about yourself is an
objective truth. Of course, wecan never find the entire truth
about ourselves, our, you know,our in our hearts. But listen
again, going back to listeningto others, what others have to
say about what you're good atthat you might not recognize, or
just a need that you can fillthrough your unique
circumstances or abilities, andrecognizing you know that you, I
(22:33):
mean, you can be bad atsomething and still enjoy it and
pursue it. I love, love to run.
I am the probably the world'sslowest runner at this stage in
my life, and I still do it justfor myself, but I'm not out
there, you know, asking Nike ifI can, you know, they'll sponsor
me, because I know I'm not goodat it, right? Yeah, I could try.
I guess I could be like, I
Joshua Johnson (22:55):
might go. That's actually exactly what we want to
do for our next campaign.
Karen Swallow Prior (23:01):
I want a Nike sponsorship, but again,
that recognition of I'm justdoing this for me, for, you
know, my mental and physicalhealth, and not because I have,
you know, illusions of grandeurabout this ability that I have.
What does
Joshua Johnson (23:16):
it look like in a daily life within community to
pursue something like truth?
Karen Swallow Prior (23:22):
Yeah. I mean, I think the pursuit of it
is, I mean, there are lots ofother ways we can think about
truth, such as integrity is akind of is truth. I think about
bringing the whole of yourselfto all that you do, like, even
if you, even if you're workingfor I think I have this example
in in my book, and I don'tremember which chapter, but of a
colleague I had when I wasteaching English at a university
(23:44):
full time, and her first callingwas as a wife and mom, and then
she later got her academicdegrees to teach English, and
the way she taught English wasalmost like a mom, like she
became like a mom to the kid.
She brought her whole self tothis position. I was not like
that, and that's okay. But youknow, so she would, you know,
(24:05):
she would often get theathletes, and who didn't care a
whit about the five paragraphessay, but she would just like
mother them right into the fiveparagraph essay, and because she
brought her whole self, herintegrity, to her position. And
so, so there's, I think there'sa holism that is part of truth.
I mean, not that we, you know. Imean, there's some jobs,
obviously, where being atruthful counselor means you
(24:27):
have to keep a separationbetween yourself and your
client. And so different jobsrequire different boundaries and
and different opportunities tobring different parts of
ourselves or our entire selvesto them. And so again, that goes
back to the truth of the of thework, the truth of the
relationships, the truth ofourselves before God and
(24:48):
fulfilling His will and His law.
I mean, those sounds like, soundlike grand things, but just
simply, even in in the mostmundane work that we might do.
So we can do it truly andtruthfully. We want the cashier
who's checking us out in thegrocery store to do her work
truthfully and honorably, justas we want doctors and pastors
(25:12):
to do this the work their sameway.
Joshua Johnson (25:14):
So then what is the what is good and beautiful
look like? How do we discernthose things. Yeah,
Karen Swallow Prior (25:21):
so I define goodness as truth made manifest.
So like, truth is sort of likethe abstract idea, and goodness
is what truth looks like,embodied. So embody, you know?
So if we do, you know, if we aregood people, we have character,
we have virtue that's displayed.
That's something that people cansee. If we do good work, well,
(25:43):
then that is the truth of thatwork being displayed. I quote
Dorothy Sayers a lot inthroughout the book, but
especially in this chapter,because really, all you have to
do is read Dorothy Sayers. Well,you could read my book as well,
but Dorothy Sayers has so muchthat's good to say. I mean, she
talks about, we like to put theword Christian as an adjective
(26:05):
in front of many of the thingsthat we do. And she she says,
There's no such thing asChristian work. There's just
good work that's well done, andthat's what Christians should be
demanding of of each other andof ourselves, that kind of
goodness. And there's so manyways to to bring goodness to the
world through different kinds ofwork that is done well. And I
(26:25):
and goodness itself is just sogood. And I, you know, I want to
drop a little line for all theperfectionists out there who are
paralyzed and end up not doingsomething, because nothing short
of perfection, will do that isjust a wrong mindset, because
when God created the world, hedescribed the things he created
(26:47):
as good, and that at one pointvery good. And good is good
enough for God. And so yes, wecan pursue excellence, and I
believe in that. But good isgood as as well
Joshua Johnson (27:03):
creativity and creation being co creators. A
lot of people are like, Hey, Iwould love to do this true, good
and beautiful work, and thinkingthat it has to look a certain
way. What does that look like,embodied in a culture,
especially in our capitalisticpursuit of wealth, what does
(27:24):
being people that pursue true,good and beautiful look like as
a opposition to the widerculture? That
Karen Swallow Prior (27:35):
is a great question. And of course, my
whole reason for talking abouttruth, goodness and beauty in
our vocations is because God isthe source of all that is true,
good and beautiful, and it'sthat's his character and nature.
And so if we are pursuing thosethings, we're actually pursuing
God. So it's just another way ofthinking about pursuing the will
(28:00):
and the ways of God, and so thatdoesn't really look a lot like
materialism or consumerism andyou, but it does look beautiful.
And that's the thing that I thatI say about beauty, is that
beauty, especially beauty, justattracts us. And there actually
is a history of the word beautythat connects it to the word
(28:21):
calling. So that's where I, youknow, kind of land the book is,
because beauty calls us. And sowhen we are pursuing the calling
that God has for us in our onour lives, and there will be
different ones, we're actuallypursuing beauty, and we're
displaying beauty in a way thatattracts people to the source of
(28:42):
beauty. And it's not to say thatpeople you know, you know,
people who have beautiful homescan be hospitable, and that's a
way of of drawing people to thebeauty of God. But people who,
who don't have beautiful homes,and who just you know, are kind
and have beautiful souls, andattract people. They are showing
them something of God. And sothey're again, going back to,
(29:05):
you know, the fact that we existin late modern America. There
are many options and manychoices that most people in
history have not had, and wehave. There are lots of ways to
pursue truth, goodness andbeauty and to draw people to
God. But the point is, is that'swhat we should be doing, no
matter what our calling is.
Joshua Johnson (29:23):
What happens when there's a community of
people that are supposed tofollow what is true, good and
beautiful, and they decide tofollow something different? What
is our role as as people that dopursue those things and have the
that good vocation, and we arepeople that are true, good and
beautiful, and pursue truth andgoodness and beauty. What
(29:46):
happens when, when people go offthe rails? What does it look
like to call people to back tothose things?
Karen Swallow Prior (29:54):
Right?
Yeah. I mean, I think that'sthat's a role that we all have
in one another's lives andcommunity. Is to help one
another to keep on that pursuit.
But there certainly do cometimes, as you've suggested, when
that accountability and thatcalling and that nudging doesn't
work, and then we have to, we'refaced with an example. I mean,
(30:15):
to go back to truth, we have toface the reality that's in front
of us. I think, you know, it'seasy for us. I've done it myself
to kind of deceive ourselves andsay, No, this, you know, these
people are really trying to dothe right thing. They may not be
doing it right. They may havemade mistakes, but at some
point, that's actually can bewe're deceiving ourselves, and
we have to say, no, there have,you know, they have been faced
(30:38):
with the truth. They have beentold how to correct and and have
not. And so the reality is thatfor me to pursue truth, goodness
and beauty, I cannot do thiswith with that community or this
group of people. You know? Imean that that's just sometimes
a decision that we have to make,but we certainly should always
be seeking to hold one anotherand asking others to do the same
(31:02):
for us accountable, holding usaccountable for pursuing truth,
goodness and beauty.
Joshua Johnson (31:06):
You know, one of the most impactful funerals that
I've been to was a man. He diedin his early 50s. I think he was
a forklift driver for his entirecareer, but the the truth and
goodness and beauty of his lifelived out while doing the work
(31:27):
of something that seems mundanereally had a huge impact on 1000
people that were there andaround and it was his life that
actually gave us truth andgoodness and beauty. Is there an
example that you have seen ofpeople that are embodying some
(31:47):
of this that have inspired youto say they're actually
following their true calling andvocation? And it may not look if
we just look at the job, it maynot look that way. But
Karen Swallow Prior (32:01):
I mean, I There are so many people in my
life. I mean, I grew up amongand surrounded by ordinary
people who, you know, don't,don't make news and don't,
aren't famous, and they aren't,you know, celebrities and in the
evangelical world, you know, mymother is one of them who she
lived 88 years, and almost everysingle one of those years, she
(32:24):
was teaching children, evenbeginning when she was in
elementary school and went to aone room schoolhouse, she helped
teach the younger students. Andshe never went to school to be a
teacher, but she taught Sundayschool. She taught, you know,
our younger family members madelessons for them. She just did
that her whole life, and thereare so many examples of the
fruit of that ministry over thecourse of her life, and And yet,
(32:48):
she didn't have a tick tockbecause she wasn't on Twitter,
and, you know, she wasn't acelebrity Evangelical, but she
was a faithful servant of theLord, and the expression we have
for like salt of the earth kindof people, you know, another
example is, is my husband, whotook on a second career as a
high school teacher at our localpublic school. And so many
(33:12):
Christians think of ministry asjust working for the church and
getting a paycheck from thechurch. And there's nothing
wrong with that. I mean, I'vedone that, but there is ministry
to be done just in our actualneighborhoods, in in the schools
and in in, you know, businesses,just living as ordinary people
doing good work, well,honorably, truthfully and
(33:35):
beautifully.
Joshua Johnson (33:36):
So what do you think a community of people
doing that work would look like?
Yeah,
Karen Swallow Prior (33:39):
I think, you know, I, I think it would
look probably small and humbleand healthy and varied in the
way that, you know, beauty is avariety of things. It's not just
uniform. And, you know, I thinkthat we, I think there was a
hunger for this. I think thatcelebrity culture and mega
(34:02):
institution culture has drawnthe church away from these sort
of simple, ordinary things, andpeople have been presented a
distorted message that, youknow, if you really love God,
you're going to do big things,great things, and some people
will do big and great things,but that but loving God and
serving our neighbors, well,doesn't always look dramatic and
(34:23):
exciting, and so I thinkcommunities that are rooted like
church, communities that arerooted in the local community
and are known and loved by thelocal community because of who
they are and how they are andwhat they do, will just make the
larger the larger communitythrive and flourish in ways that
(34:43):
don't draw attention to thechurch community, but just
simply show themselves in thericher lives of everyone who
lives there.
Joshua Johnson (34:50):
So I want to go back and talk a little bit about
the distinction between passion,following your passion, and
calling. What. What we've beentalking about with the true,
good and beautiful feels likethis is who I am. It's an
embodied thing that I'm doing,that I'm being, I'm being
(35:11):
somebody that is pursuing truthand goodness and beauty. It
sometimes doesn't look likemaybe what I'm passionate about,
which passion equals suffering.
It means suffering, so pursuingyour passion sometimes will just
bring you straight to suffering,but it's okay. So what then?
What does that look like? Then,if it is really more about being
(35:33):
than about what you'repassionate about doing,
Karen Swallow Prior (35:40):
being is a subjective thing, but if we're
talking about truth, goodnessand beauty, there are some
objective qualities to those. SoI think there's sort of an
interplay between objectivetruth and goodness and beauty,
and then how that subjectivelyplays out in the way that we
live and are, and passion has animportant role to play in that.
But the points that that Ireally am trying to make in the
(36:03):
book about passion is, I'mtrying to counter the lie that
the past couple of generationshave been fed, which is that you
know that you're going to getpaid a lot of money to do what
you're passionate about, likethat. What sometimes that
happens, and that's wonderful,but that should not be our
expectation. And so what we haveis a lot of I see it all around
(36:27):
me as people refusing to takework that is not aligned with
their passions. And therefore,you know, floundering in many,
you know, ways, whereas we oftenhave to do work that we're not
passionate about, and then, butwe still can still pursue our
passions. You know, in otherparts of our lives, work should
(36:47):
not be our entire life. And thenthe other point that I make, the
which is supported by theresearch of Cal Newport, who
does a lot of research in thisarea, is he has found that
people end up becomingpassionate about the work that
they do when they've done itlong enough to become competent
at it and good at it, and thatthey actually one, one study
(37:11):
that he was several studies, butone study that I cite in the
book that he talks about is thelength of someone doing the job
correlated directly with theirpassion about it. The longer
they did the job, the morepassionate they became at it.
And it was not an exciting job.
It was like being a collegeadministrator assistant or
something. And so passion has apart to play in all of that, but
(37:33):
we live in a time when passionhas become sort of the be all
and end all of what we should doin our own measure of our
success. And I and no one shouldfeel that they are some kind of
a failure, because the job thatthey do is something that
they're not passionate about, orit wasn't, you know, they have a
passion elsewhere. I haveencountered that many times and
(37:55):
and one of the examples I citein the book is a is a young
millennial who had a job thatshe was passionate about, and
she just decided to leave itbecause she just she wanted her
work to be her work, and shewanted to pursue her passion on
the side, and that's alsoanother way of living a
fulfilling life of service toourselves and our neighbors.
Joshua Johnson (38:16):
Do you think evangelicals are more prone to
confusing passion with withcalling, I do other Christians.
Karen Swallow Prior (38:26):
I think that's become a kind of a tick
in contemporary evangelicalism.
You know, probably there arepeople who could do a good job
researching where that came fromand why that is, and there are
probably multiple reasons. Butwe've definitely become a
culture that measures ourrelationship with God by the
supposedly great things we doand the passion we have. You
(38:49):
know, be passionate for this andfor that. And the other point
that I make in my book is, youknow, some people are just even
keeled people who aren't likeburning with passion all the
time, and that's actually okay,like we need more even keeled
people in the world.
Joshua Johnson (39:06):
If I'm looking at the back of the book and all
and you're citing all the worksthat you've cited, there's a lot
of literature in here. Can youwhich is fantastic, and I love
that. So can you give me some?
Got an English prof, exactly.
It's amazing. So can you give mesome examples from literature
about how this works?
Karen Swallow Prior (39:27):
Yeah, so one of the poems that I include
is by one of my favorite poets,and one of my favorite poems the
17th Century Puritan or the 17thCentury Anglican cleric, George
Herbert. The poem that I includeis called the collar, and it
refers to the clerical collar.
He was a priest. And the wholepoem is him as a young priest
speaking to God, raging andraving before God because he
(39:51):
wants to get out of ministry,because he doesn't see any fruit
for his labor, and he's angry atGod. Because, you know, because
he's serving the Lord, notseeing fruit, and the Lord could
bring the fruit. And the wholepoem is him just yelling at God.
And the poem ends with, with Godanswering to him, my child. And
(40:12):
the spoke, poet says, My Lord.
And it's just, it's just abeautiful poem. He's it's a it's
submission to the Lord, but it'salso a picture of how the Lord
welcomes our our railing and ourquestions and our anxiety and
our frustration and still lovesus as His children. And that is
(40:37):
our ultimate calling is to beHis child.
Joshua Johnson (40:40):
And that's beautiful, and that's man, thank
you. Like, I want to be a childof God, and I want to get to
that place like I'm okay there,whatever I do and wherever I go
and Whatever befalls me in mylife, that I'm a child of God.
And I could say, Yes, Lord, whatis your hope for this book? You
(41:01):
have a calling. What do you hopethat people would get from this
and what it would give to theworld?
Karen Swallow Prior (41:05):
Well, I hope, again, I said that I don't
have, like, six steps or amagical formula for finding your
calling. So what I hope it doesis that it just opens up the
field, opens up the range ofpossibilities, because some
people are going to pursue theirpassion and get do good work and
get paid a lot to do it, andother people are not, and some
(41:26):
people are going to love theirjobs, and other people are not,
and some people are going to doone thing their whole, you know,
one main vocation, their wholelives. And others are going to
do a lot of things. But I wantpeople to see just the beauty
and variety and the truth andgoodness and the way that God
can use it all and will use itall, and that we don't need to
narrow our our options, but westill need to have realistic
(41:50):
expectations. I think that's agreat poison in our culture, is
that our our disappointments andanxieties come from unrealistic
expectations. And so we candream big and trust God to do to
he's the one who's going tobring the fruit. But we can also
(42:10):
just luxuriate in the everydayworld, in ordinary work, in life
with our among our neighbors andour family members. That is
where most of the truth,goodness and beauty in the world
is to be found, and that is whatwill draw us closer to God and
draw others to him as well.
Joshua Johnson (42:29):
That's beautiful. Thank you, Karen, can
you give us somerecommendations? Anything you've
been reading lately you couldrecommend?
Karen Swallow Prior (42:36):
Oh, my goodness. I um, well, I have a
lot of citations in the book. Alot of you know, again, a lot of
literature. I like to readliterature. So I'll give the
literature recommendations. Youalready mentioned these small
things. What is it called? Thesesmall things like these. I can
never remember the title,excellent book on my sub stack,
which you've already mentioned.
I am doing taking readersthrough a survey of British
(42:58):
literature. We begin with OldEnglish, go through Middle
English, and now we're in the17th century. We're just ending
the 17th century. So I thinklit, all of the classic
literature is wonderful to read.
I'm also posting on there somebooks that I cannot recommend,
which is a little fun thing tobooks that you know, that I that
I might not know you, so youmight not like it, but I liked
(43:19):
it. And so lots of lots ofliterature. And I hope you'll
read this book and follow allthe footnotes, because I cite a
lot of different kinds ofsources, work on works on
vocation. There are a lot outthere. I had to read most of
them to write this book, buthopefully mine will just give
you a little taste of the bestof all of them. And it's short
and sweet, so then you can go onand read great literature after
(43:42):
this.
Joshua Johnson (43:43):
Well, this book is short, it is sweet and it is
beautiful, and I love the waythat you you wrote this. It just
brings me into the world. And Ijust feel like I am enveloped
into this book. It just feelscozy and good. It just makes me
want to be a person that pursuestruth and goodness and beauty.
(44:05):
So be a better person in thisworld and that, you know, high
and lofty passion and callingmay not be the pursuit that I
want, but the pursuit of truthand goodness and beauty with
wherever I go. So well done.
This is a fantastic, fantasticbook. Highly recommend it to
everyone. If you have havepeople that are pursuing
calling, what does it look liketo live in this world and where
(44:28):
what they need? Give it out andbuy a bunch of copies for
friends. This is a fabulousgraduation gift for people as
well. There's all sorts ofthings. So this book should, for
many years, be handed out tomany people. So
Karen Swallow Prior (44:46):
and I will there are both generous bulk
discounts are available. So justcontact the publisher so you can
get a lot of copies. Cheap,excellent.
Joshua Johnson (44:53):
Where would you like to point people to you so
people could get it? How canpeople connect with you? Sub
Karen Swallow Prior (44:58):
stack is the best place. Case I my
newsletter is titled The Priory.
You can find me on, you know, onthe site, or sign up for my
emails. And I'm also, you know,I'm also, sadly, on x, which is
not very true, good andbeautiful, but I am there and
and Instagram. Instagram is alittle bit more beautiful, so I
like to share pictures of myflowers and my dogs and my runs
(45:19):
so
Joshua Johnson (45:23):
nice. And your library and my library,
Karen Swallow Prior (45:25):
yes, yes, yes, follow the journey of my
library, which is, it's been sohot I haven't been doing any
work on it, but it will continueas summer abates. Exactly.
Joshua Johnson (45:37):
Well, Karen, thank you for this conversation.
Thank you for bringing us intothe pursuit of truth and
goodness and beauty. What is ourtrue calling? That we have a
calling, we have vocation, thatwe could actually work with God,
that it is in relation to thecaller, to the person being
called. We are being called fromoutside of ourselves. And it's
not just about what we desire tothe things that are within us.
So we don't just find it withinus. We find it from outside of
(46:00):
us is beautiful. Thank you,Karen, thank you, Joshua. You.
We can also just luxuriate in the everyday
(00:05):
world, in ordinary work, in lifewith our among our neighbors and
our family members. That iswhere most of the truth,
goodness and beauty in the worldis to be found, and that is what
will draw us closer to God anddraw others to him as well. You
Hello
Joshua Johnson (00:33):
and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in
which we have conversationsabout the culture we create and
the impact we can make. We longas the body of Christ look like
Jesus, I'm your host. JoshuaJohnson, our culture tells us to
look inward, to find ourselvesKaren, swallow prior returns to
offer a counter narrative, onethat reminds us that calling is
not something we invent, butsomething we receive. It's not
(00:56):
simply about chasing passion orcrafting a personal brand. It's
about listening, discerning andresponding to the voice that
calls us toward what is true,what is good and what is
beautiful. Karen helps usreimagine vocation as a lifelong
invitation into meaningful work,quiet faithfulness and a deeper
communion with God. We explorethe shifts that take place
(01:18):
across the lifetime, the lettinggo of dreams that no longer fit,
the rediscovery of purpose inunexpected places, the beauty of
a calling that evolves. We talkabout work, scarcity, abundance,
suffering, integrity and thesacredness of everyday life.
This isn't a roadmap with sixeasy steps to find your purpose.
It's a thoughtful reflection onhow God shapes us over time,
(01:41):
through community and how eventhe most ordinary moments can
become holy when rooted intruth, goodness and beauty. Here
is my conversation with Karenswallow prior Karen, welcome
back to shifting culture. Reallyexcited to have you back on.
It's great to be back. Thankyou. I'm excited to go in deep
into calling and vocation, whatis true and good and beautiful.
(02:04):
So I wanted to start with thethe title of your your book, and
we could just jump in fromthere. It says you have a
calling, which is title yourbook, finding your vocation in
the true, good and beautiful. Soit sounds like vocation and
calling are pretty tiedtogether. What is that for you?
Vocation and calling. What doesthat look like?
Karen Swallow Prior (02:27):
Yeah, so I mean in the book, I use the
words interchangeably, becauseand the main thing that I say
about them is that they bothrequire being called by someone
or something outside ofourselves. So a lot of times,
you'll hear people talk aboutfeeling like they have a
calling, or feeling called,which you know that I understand
(02:50):
what they mean by that. Butoften that's talking about a
passion, a desire that we have,and ideally in an ideal world,
what we desire to do, and whatwe have a passion to do are this
is the same thing that assomething that we're called to
do by other, by others. But thatdoesn't always happen. And so in
the book, I talk about that, andI'm drawing on decades of
(03:12):
teaching college age studentswho, you know, are asking these
questions, but also getting alot of distorted messages, I
think, from the culture aboutwhat our work and our callings
look like, and how our desiresand passions fit into those but
it's not just college age peoplewho are wrestling with these
questions. More and more peoplemy age and younger and older,
(03:36):
you know, mid career or end ofcareer, are grappling with these
questions in a very rapidlychanging world. And so my basic
argument is that we have, youknow, callings come from outside
of ourselves. And we havemultiple callings over the
course of our life, and theyshift and take different forms
and sometimes even end
Joshua Johnson (03:53):
that right there. That calling is going to
come outside of ourselves isreally difficult in this late
modern age that we live in,because everything comes from
within, like I'm gonna find whoI am, I'm gonna discover myself,
and I'm gonna discover mypassion, and then I could live
out of that. I want to just knowabout your journey. What did it
look like to follow vocation andcalling, and what did it look
(04:16):
like coming from outside ofyourself, and maybe through
community and God and andothers, rather than just finding
something from within yourself,like so many tried to do these
days.
Karen Swallow Prior (04:27):
Yeah, and you know, it really is, and I
didn't use this in the book,it's just occurring to me now.
It really is kind of a dance,right? One partner is that the
inner desire and passions andabilities that we have, the
dance partner is the callingthat comes from outside. And so
the dances can look different,and they can be beautiful, or
they could be clumsy, or theycould be awkward. And so for me,
(04:51):
I, you know, as a young person,even though it was a long time
ago, I still am a person of theof the late modern age. And so I
pursued my passion. Passion forreading literature and studying
English and language, I had nodesire to teach. In fact, I
decided I did not want to be ateacher. I wanted to be many
(05:11):
things, but not a teacher. Butwhen I entered the PhD program
to pursue my passion of readingand studying literature, that is
when I accidentally orprovidentially discovered,
because I had an opportunity totry it that I discovered I was
created to teach. I lovedteaching. I loved classroom
teaching. I still love teaching.
And when I you know, as asusual, when I finished my PhD, I
(05:32):
went on the job market. It wasnot a good job market. Then it's
even worse now. But I gotcalled. I got the call from the
Dean, and then I had a, youknow, 25 year teaching career.
Joshua Johnson (05:47):
I mean, for you, you're having 25 year teaching
career, moving in and out now,in the last, you know, five, six
years as you have, what doesthat shift look like? How did
you say, Oh, this calling may bea little different, but some of
what I am called to be in thisworld has been the same. Yes,
(06:08):
how do we navigate
Karen Swallow Prior (06:09):
that? Yeah, I love how you put that because,
and I put it that way at pointsin my book, that calling is not
just about what we do, but it'sabout who we are as a way of
being. And so even though I havegone out of the formal classroom
as a teacher, I mean, I dovisiting posts now and then. I
do different kinds of teaching,but I'm not a full time academic
(06:33):
any longer, I still teach. Istill believe that is my call.
My writing is teaching, myspeaking is teaching, my
visiting posts are teaching soit has taken a different form
than it did before. So that canhappen for us in a variety of
ways over the course of life.
Joshua Johnson (06:50):
Yeah. I mean, if I'm just looking at your sub
stack and the things that youare writing, you are teaching,
you're helping us navigatedifferent different works of
literature and different placesso that we can engage well,
you're, you're teaching, andyou're, you're a good teacher,
and you're somebody that youknow people want to follow,
because we're going to actuallylearn something from you. And so
(07:13):
I love seeing your calling playout on different stages in your
own life, which is fun to seethink about work. So a lot of
people, when we think of any anytype of work today, we think, I
need to follow my passion. Ihave to love what I do.
Sometimes work is going to bework, and we're going to have to
do it. Where did work come from?
What is work and why is it goodfor us to have work?
Karen Swallow Prior (07:38):
Work is part of God's original plan for
us as human beings, even beforethe fall, when God created Adam
and then Eve in the garden, hecalled them to work, to be his
co laborers, really, instewarding creation and caring
for creation, and they weredoing that before, Before the
(08:00):
Fall, Adam was tasked withnaming the animals I cite in the
book. One of my favoritedescriptions of work before the
fall is from John Milton'sParadise Lost, where he depicts
Adam and Eve working in thegarden, and the work that they
have to do is defined byabundance, because the garden is
so rich and full. But they haveto lop and prune and and cut and
(08:21):
trim and cultivate even beforethe fall. And of course, we all
know, because we've all livedafter the fall that we it's,
it's our work now. It has manydifferent kinds of obstacles.
Yeah, it's still part of God'soriginal plan for us. And so I
think even though work is hardand it's not always something
that we love, it is good, and itis, it is God's original call
(08:43):
for us, because we are workingwith him to serve our neighbors
and to serve our our familiesthrough our work, whatever that
might be.
Joshua Johnson (08:52):
So when I think of toil, I think moving in after
the fall and work, I'm thinkingso many people have a scarcity
mindset that I have to, I haveto work really hard to get what
is, is ours, so we could providefor our family. We could get and
there are limited resources inthis world. So, you know, this
is why we have wars and nationstates, is we just fight for
(09:17):
limited resources, but in thekingdom and and creation. You
know, Milton's talking aboutabundance. God had said there is
an abundance. There is there ashift that we need to take in
our work of knowing that in thekingdom of God there may be
abundance and God is good. Ourwork is good, and God is for us.
(09:38):
And I think abundance andscarcity. I think one is one of
the biggest problems in thisworld. How do we reframe that
and shift that perspective for
Karen Swallow Prior (09:48):
us? Yeah, I mean, of course, we have to
understand that God's provisionis infinite and eternal, and he
never runs out of the goodthings for us. That's obviously
not true of the world.
Particular things in the world,and so I think it does depend on
what we have our eyes on, andthe reason why that showed up
the way that it does in my book.
(10:09):
I mean, I think it's animportant idea, but it was
personal for me, and I don'tknow that I put this in there or
not, but when I was reaching theend of my vocation as a
classroom professor andconsidering what I might do
next, I talked with a goodfriend of mine about an
opportunity I had that I wasn'tsure if it was a good fit. And
(10:30):
he just said, don't make adecision out of a scarcity
mindset. Don't just do thisbecause you think your
opportunities will be scarcenow. And that just stuck with
me, because I didn't realize Iwas even doing that, and so that
made me look at everythingdifferently. Like, yes, there
may you know, as I said a fewminutes ago, the academic
(10:54):
environment has changed greatly,and jobs are scarcer, and
scarcer schools are closing. Sothat is not necessarily a good
time in our culture right now.
There for, you know, manyacademic appointments just like
you know, the car industrychanged half a century ago.
Things do shift and change, butopportunities in general, and
and the ability to use our giftsand our our talent and our time
(11:18):
and our service and our work forour neighbors and for the glory
of God will never end. Sosometimes we just have to take
our eyes off the thing thatwe've had our eyes on for a
while and look up and see whatelse is out there. Because those
opportunities are infinite.
Joshua Johnson (11:36):
So hard to look up, and it's really hard we look
interiorly so often, and so it'sso, so difficult. So if I'm
looking at like, what you did,and you're teaching college
students, you know, if my workwith high school college
students in the past, when Iasked somebody, would you like
to know God's call on your life?
Would you like to know whatyou're supposed to do?
(11:58):
Everybody's like, yes, what am Isupposed to do? I want to know
this. So practically, what doesit look like? How do we start to
discern some of this calling andour true vocation for us in
relation to the caller?
Karen Swallow Prior (12:14):
Now, that is such a good question, and I
will say at the outset that Idon't have a formula or a six
step plan in the book to follow,oh, man, yeah, I don't have
God's phone numbers. You cancall him up and say, Hey, God,
what am I supposed to do? I wishit were that easy. But I think
what you know, what I you knowwhen I first kind of say, is the
world and the field are wideopen, right? I mean, there are
(12:36):
things in God's moral law and inour circumstances that obviously
shut some things off, somethings we shouldn't do because
they're wrong, and then otherthings that we can't do because,
you know, God created me to befive foot three, so I'm not
going to be a WNBA player,right? I mean, so there are
limitations, but the limitationsreally went again when you're
(13:00):
thinking about abundance andinfinity and eternity are are
just so very few. It's like thattree in the garden, the one, the
two trees from which we couldnot eat, and yet all the rest
were there. That's That's whatvocation and calling look like.
And so I do think we have to begood stewards of the
(13:21):
circumstances and opportunitiesGod places us in the abilities
and opportunities that he givesus. Like some, some people have
an opportunity to go to collegeand get a college degree and be
good stewards, and they shoulddo that if that's, you know, if
that's where their skill set is.
And yet, other people have otheropportunities, and so we want to
steward those well. And then wewant to be in community. We want
(13:44):
to be around people who can tellus things about ourselves that
we might not see, the thingsthat we're good at that we might
not recognize, maybe even peoplehonest enough to say, you know,
you're not really that good atthis, or I don't think you'd be
happy doing this. I've had, Ihave had many people in my life,
at certain times, say, You knowwhat, I don't think you'd enjoy
(14:06):
doing this. This would kill you.
This would be the death of youand and that has been good, good
wisdom for me. So those are allthe things that God uses in our
lives, our circumstances, ourour talents, our opportunities,
and the people around us who canspeak into our lives to help us
discern what our calling mightbe, and we don't have to live in
(14:27):
fear that we're going to missthe one calling, because there
are multiple callings, and Godcan use a circuitous paths to
bring us around to, you know,something he may have have
intended for us that we took asideways route to get to, and
that's okay. Also, what
Joshua Johnson (14:45):
happens? So I'm just, I'm thinking of some
people in my life, so whathappens if, if they have been in
a place where they really, trulybelieve this is my calling, it's
also my sweet spot, like it'sthe place that I feel. Like I
was made for, and for somereason, we got called somewhere
(15:05):
else, and we're doing something,but we still long and pine for
the place that we feel like wewere made for. But it's a it's a
new, new life and a new world,and we're not satisfied yet,
even though we know we werecalled and we know that it was
the next thing. How do we beokay that calling shifts, even
(15:30):
if you're giving up somethingthat was good? Yeah,
Karen Swallow Prior (15:34):
I mean, I have been there and I'm probably
still, sort of still in thattransition of giving up
something that I thought that Iwas made to do and doing
something different. And thereis some of us adjust to change
more quickly than others. I donot adjust to change easily. I
want everything to be the sameevery day, but that seldom
happens. And so I think we giveourselves grace for the
(15:58):
disappointment, the pain, thelonging, you know, but we also,
we also give God grace, right?
We also say, you know, God, youdo have something else for me.
And every there is nothing inthis world that is perfect. So
we are going to give up somethings. But nothing is is, you
know, completely perfect. And sothere will be some, some
negative part of that thing wegave up that will, we should be
glad that we got to say goodbyeto and then the new things in
(16:22):
front of us have positivethings, even if we are still
struggling with some of the thenegative, negative aspects of
change or loss and so and thenthat, for me, I just because,
again, we haven't really talkedabout this, but my background is
literature. I was an Englishprofessor. I don't even know you
know, why am I writing aboutthis? Well, for many reasons,
but reading literature widelyfor for many years, has helped
(16:47):
me to see my own place in thehuman story and how privileged
it is and what a blessing it Imean, most people who have lived
on this earth have not had theability to make this choice or
that choice, or pursue thiscareer or that career that most
people have just had to find,you know, provide for their
(17:08):
families, find health and safetyand shelter, and we're kind of
spoiled as Americans. I'll takeit. I'm thankful for it, but we
still have to keep thatperspective that this is a very
limited time in human historywhere we have so many choices
and so many options, and takingthe broader perspective to
(17:28):
understand the kinds of thingsthat our brothers and sisters in
Christ over the years have gonethrough, and just the rest of of
humans who've lived in history,just it just, I think we need
more perspective.
Joshua Johnson (17:41):
That reminds me, I don't know if you've read
Claire Keegan small things likethese. It's one of my favorites.
It's one of my favorite books,and I love the movie from last
year as well. An Irish coalminer working really hard
providing for his family. Reallydoesn't feel like this is really
a passionate job. Is just ahard, gritty job that he has to
(18:04):
do to provide is and the wholetown doesn't look pretty.
There's a lot of ugliness there,but he pursues something that
looks true and good andbeautiful. And so even taking
something like that, and hispursuit of that, even in the
midst of ugliness and grittinessand difficulty and his work and
(18:25):
his job, what does it look likefor us? Then you're using this
framing device of true good andbeautiful so what is that true
good and beautiful work looklike even in the midst of a coal
miner in Ireland and you know,the early 1900s
Karen Swallow Prior (18:39):
Oh yeah, no. I love that. You use that
example, and I'll avoid all thespoilers, but you described it
perfectly. It really is someabout someone living a hard life
that does not look glamorous andfun and yet finding pursuing the
true, the good and beautiful inhis life, and blessing others
and his family through that.
Okay, that's my spoiler. And soyes, that kind of perspective,
(19:01):
because that's something else Icover in the book, is just how
our attitudes about work, evenin modern America, have changed
dramatically in just threegenerations. It's been different
for each generation. And so myargument is simply that wherever
we are, whatever ourcircumstances, if we are
pursuing the true, the good andbeautiful, in our daily lives,
(19:23):
in our work, in ourrelationships, in whatever jobs
we might have, in whatevercareers we might pursuing,
whatever vocations we're tryingto discern, if we pursue
goodness, truth and beauty, thenwe are fulfilling our callings.
And you know, I try to just makesome practical application to
that, because even that sounds alittle ethereal, but at least it
(19:45):
breaks it down into, you know,at least three, three slightly
smaller parts.
Joshua Johnson (19:51):
So let's break down those, those parts, what
is, what is truth, and why we'repursuing truth?
Karen Swallow Prior (19:58):
Yeah, such a small question. Right? Very
small question. Well, you know,one of the points that I make in
this chapter on truth is, youknow, Christians today are
really good about at talkingabout what we used to be really
good at talking about truth. Wecared a lot about truth, and I
care a lot about truth, don'tget me wrong, but I think we've
(20:18):
been limited even in the waythat we think about truth. It's
always about doctrine orabsolute truth, universal truth,
and those things are good. Buteven in the material, physical
world, there is truth we need tounderstand, in other words, like
reality. So if we have a visionor dream or desire to do or be
something, we need to know thatthe reality of what is entailed
(20:41):
in that job, in that lifestyle,all the requirements of it, we
need to have a true vision ortrue understanding of simply
what it entails. And so that'swhy we try things, and that's
why, you know, it's good to dothat. But we live in so many
things are distorted in thisdigital age. We see, you know,
we have, you can sit down infront of a cable a television
(21:04):
show and watch, you know, themost dangerous jobs, or the most
whatever, whatever jobs, andeverything looks like. It's it's
fun and exciting, and you onlysee a tiny percentage of what it
really looks like. And so wehave to recognize the reality of
the world. So that's onepractical application that I
talk about in terms of truth.
The reverse of that is knowingthe truth about ourselves,
(21:25):
right? Knowing, are we reallygood at this thing? I mean, you
know, we could think of someonewho's a really bad singer and
just, you know, gets up andalways wants to sing in front of
people, and that's maybe alittle bit humorous and sad, but
think about the people, becausewe've all had them in our lives,
the people who were in positionsof some kind of pastoring or
teaching and should not havebeen in those positions, right?
(21:50):
So it can be very dangerous toall of us and also keep a person
from finding out what theyreally are good at and what
their true calling is if they'rejust pursuing something that
really is not their calling.
Joshua Johnson (22:04):
So then, what's the difference then, between my
truth and the truth aboutmyself?
Karen Swallow Prior (22:09):
Oh, because the truth about yourself is an
objective truth. Of course, wecan never find the entire truth
about ourselves, our, you know,our in our hearts. But listen
again, going back to listeningto others, what others have to
say about what you're good atthat you might not recognize, or
just a need that you can fillthrough your unique
circumstances or abilities, andrecognizing you know that you, I
(22:33):
mean, you can be bad atsomething and still enjoy it and
pursue it. I love, love to run.
I am the probably the world'sslowest runner at this stage in
my life, and I still do it justfor myself, but I'm not out
there, you know, asking Nike ifI can, you know, they'll sponsor
me, because I know I'm not goodat it, right? Yeah, I could try.
I guess I could be like, I
Joshua Johnson (22:55):
might go. That's actually exactly what we want to
do for our next campaign.
Karen Swallow Prior (23:01):
I want a Nike sponsorship, but again,
that recognition of I'm justdoing this for me, for, you
know, my mental and physicalhealth, and not because I have,
you know, illusions of grandeurabout this ability that I have.
What does
Joshua Johnson (23:16):
it look like in a daily life within community to
pursue something like truth?
Karen Swallow Prior (23:22):
Yeah. I mean, I think the pursuit of it
is, I mean, there are lots ofother ways we can think about
truth, such as integrity is akind of is truth. I think about
bringing the whole of yourselfto all that you do, like, even
if you, even if you're workingfor I think I have this example
in in my book, and I don'tremember which chapter, but of a
colleague I had when I wasteaching English at a university
(23:44):
full time, and her first callingwas as a wife and mom, and then
she later got her academicdegrees to teach English, and
the way she taught English wasalmost like a mom, like she
became like a mom to the kid.
She brought her whole self tothis position. I was not like
that, and that's okay. But youknow, so she would, you know,
(24:05):
she would often get theathletes, and who didn't care a
whit about the five paragraphessay, but she would just like
mother them right into the fiveparagraph essay, and because she
brought her whole self, herintegrity, to her position. And
so, so there's, I think there'sa holism that is part of truth.
I mean, not that we, you know. Imean, there's some jobs,
obviously, where being atruthful counselor means you
(24:27):
have to keep a separationbetween yourself and your
client. And so different jobsrequire different boundaries and
and different opportunities tobring different parts of
ourselves or our entire selvesto them. And so again, that goes
back to the truth of the of thework, the truth of the
relationships, the truth ofourselves before God and
(24:48):
fulfilling His will and His law.
I mean, those sounds like, soundlike grand things, but just
simply, even in in the mostmundane work that we might do.
So we can do it truly andtruthfully. We want the cashier
who's checking us out in thegrocery store to do her work
truthfully and honorably, justas we want doctors and pastors
(25:12):
to do this the work their sameway.
Joshua Johnson (25:14):
So then what is the what is good and beautiful
look like? How do we discernthose things. Yeah,
Karen Swallow Prior (25:21):
so I define goodness as truth made manifest.
So like, truth is sort of likethe abstract idea, and goodness
is what truth looks like,embodied. So embody, you know?
So if we do, you know, if we aregood people, we have character,
we have virtue that's displayed.
That's something that people cansee. If we do good work, well,
(25:43):
then that is the truth of thatwork being displayed. I quote
Dorothy Sayers a lot inthroughout the book, but
especially in this chapter,because really, all you have to
do is read Dorothy Sayers. Well,you could read my book as well,
but Dorothy Sayers has so muchthat's good to say. I mean, she
talks about, we like to put theword Christian as an adjective
(26:05):
in front of many of the thingsthat we do. And she she says,
There's no such thing asChristian work. There's just
good work that's well done, andthat's what Christians should be
demanding of of each other andof ourselves, that kind of
goodness. And there's so manyways to to bring goodness to the
world through different kinds ofwork that is done well. And I
(26:25):
and goodness itself is just sogood. And I, you know, I want to
drop a little line for all theperfectionists out there who are
paralyzed and end up not doingsomething, because nothing short
of perfection, will do that isjust a wrong mindset, because
when God created the world, hedescribed the things he created
(26:47):
as good, and that at one pointvery good. And good is good
enough for God. And so yes, wecan pursue excellence, and I
believe in that. But good isgood as as well
Joshua Johnson (27:03):
creativity and creation being co creators. A
lot of people are like, Hey, Iwould love to do this true, good
and beautiful work, and thinkingthat it has to look a certain
way. What does that look like,embodied in a culture,
especially in our capitalisticpursuit of wealth, what does
(27:24):
being people that pursue true,good and beautiful look like as
a opposition to the widerculture? That
Karen Swallow Prior (27:35):
is a great question. And of course, my
whole reason for talking abouttruth, goodness and beauty in
our vocations is because God isthe source of all that is true,
good and beautiful, and it'sthat's his character and nature.
And so if we are pursuing thosethings, we're actually pursuing
God. So it's just another way ofthinking about pursuing the will
(28:00):
and the ways of God, and so thatdoesn't really look a lot like
materialism or consumerism andyou, but it does look beautiful.
And that's the thing that I thatI say about beauty, is that
beauty, especially beauty, justattracts us. And there actually
is a history of the word beautythat connects it to the word
(28:21):
calling. So that's where I, youknow, kind of land the book is,
because beauty calls us. And sowhen we are pursuing the calling
that God has for us in our onour lives, and there will be
different ones, we're actuallypursuing beauty, and we're
displaying beauty in a way thatattracts people to the source of
(28:42):
beauty. And it's not to say thatpeople you know, you know,
people who have beautiful homescan be hospitable, and that's a
way of of drawing people to thebeauty of God. But people who,
who don't have beautiful homes,and who just you know, are kind
and have beautiful souls, andattract people. They are showing
them something of God. And sothey're again, going back to,
(29:05):
you know, the fact that we existin late modern America. There
are many options and manychoices that most people in
history have not had, and wehave. There are lots of ways to
pursue truth, goodness andbeauty and to draw people to
God. But the point is, is that'swhat we should be doing, no
matter what our calling is.
Joshua Johnson (29:23):
What happens when there's a community of
people that are supposed tofollow what is true, good and
beautiful, and they decide tofollow something different? What
is our role as as people that dopursue those things and have the
that good vocation, and we arepeople that are true, good and
beautiful, and pursue truth andgoodness and beauty. What
(29:46):
happens when, when people go offthe rails? What does it look
like to call people to back tothose things?
Karen Swallow Prior (29:54):
Right?
Yeah. I mean, I think that'sthat's a role that we all have
in one another's lives andcommunity. Is to help one
another to keep on that pursuit.
But there certainly do cometimes, as you've suggested, when
that accountability and thatcalling and that nudging doesn't
work, and then we have to, we'refaced with an example. I mean,
(30:15):
to go back to truth, we have toface the reality that's in front
of us. I think, you know, it'seasy for us. I've done it myself
to kind of deceive ourselves andsay, No, this, you know, these
people are really trying to dothe right thing. They may not be
doing it right. They may havemade mistakes, but at some
point, that's actually can bewe're deceiving ourselves, and
we have to say, no, there have,you know, they have been faced
(30:38):
with the truth. They have beentold how to correct and and have
not. And so the reality is thatfor me to pursue truth, goodness
and beauty, I cannot do thiswith with that community or this
group of people. You know? Imean that that's just sometimes
a decision that we have to make,but we certainly should always
be seeking to hold one anotherand asking others to do the same
(31:02):
for us accountable, holding usaccountable for pursuing truth,
goodness and beauty.
Joshua Johnson (31:06):
You know, one of the most impactful funerals that
I've been to was a man. He diedin his early 50s. I think he was
a forklift driver for his entirecareer, but the the truth and
goodness and beauty of his lifelived out while doing the work
(31:27):
of something that seems mundanereally had a huge impact on 1000
people that were there andaround and it was his life that
actually gave us truth andgoodness and beauty. Is there an
example that you have seen ofpeople that are embodying some
(31:47):
of this that have inspired youto say they're actually
following their true calling andvocation? And it may not look if
we just look at the job, it maynot look that way. But
Karen Swallow Prior (32:01):
I mean, I There are so many people in my
life. I mean, I grew up amongand surrounded by ordinary
people who, you know, don't,don't make news and don't,
aren't famous, and they aren't,you know, celebrities and in the
evangelical world, you know, mymother is one of them who she
lived 88 years, and almost everysingle one of those years, she
(32:24):
was teaching children, evenbeginning when she was in
elementary school and went to aone room schoolhouse, she helped
teach the younger students. Andshe never went to school to be a
teacher, but she taught Sundayschool. She taught, you know,
our younger family members madelessons for them. She just did
that her whole life, and thereare so many examples of the
fruit of that ministry over thecourse of her life, and And yet,
(32:48):
she didn't have a tick tockbecause she wasn't on Twitter,
and, you know, she wasn't acelebrity Evangelical, but she
was a faithful servant of theLord, and the expression we have
for like salt of the earth kindof people, you know, another
example is, is my husband, whotook on a second career as a
high school teacher at our localpublic school. And so many
(33:12):
Christians think of ministry asjust working for the church and
getting a paycheck from thechurch. And there's nothing
wrong with that. I mean, I'vedone that, but there is ministry
to be done just in our actualneighborhoods, in in the schools
and in in, you know, businesses,just living as ordinary people
doing good work, well,honorably, truthfully and
(33:35):
beautifully.
Joshua Johnson (33:36):
So what do you think a community of people
doing that work would look like?
Yeah,
Karen Swallow Prior (33:39):
I think, you know, I, I think it would
look probably small and humbleand healthy and varied in the
way that, you know, beauty is avariety of things. It's not just
uniform. And, you know, I thinkthat we, I think there was a
hunger for this. I think thatcelebrity culture and mega
(34:02):
institution culture has drawnthe church away from these sort
of simple, ordinary things, andpeople have been presented a
distorted message that, youknow, if you really love God,
you're going to do big things,great things, and some people
will do big and great things,but that but loving God and
serving our neighbors, well,doesn't always look dramatic and
(34:23):
exciting, and so I thinkcommunities that are rooted like
church, communities that arerooted in the local community
and are known and loved by thelocal community because of who
they are and how they are andwhat they do, will just make the
larger the larger communitythrive and flourish in ways that
(34:43):
don't draw attention to thechurch community, but just
simply show themselves in thericher lives of everyone who
lives there.
Joshua Johnson (34:50):
So I want to go back and talk a little bit about
the distinction between passion,following your passion, and
calling. What. What we've beentalking about with the true,
good and beautiful feels likethis is who I am. It's an
embodied thing that I'm doing,that I'm being, I'm being
(35:11):
somebody that is pursuing truthand goodness and beauty. It
sometimes doesn't look likemaybe what I'm passionate about,
which passion equals suffering.
It means suffering, so pursuingyour passion sometimes will just
bring you straight to suffering,but it's okay. So what then?
What does that look like? Then,if it is really more about being
(35:33):
than about what you'repassionate about doing,
Karen Swallow Prior (35:40):
being is a subjective thing, but if we're
talking about truth, goodnessand beauty, there are some
objective qualities to those. SoI think there's sort of an
interplay between objectivetruth and goodness and beauty,
and then how that subjectivelyplays out in the way that we
live and are, and passion has animportant role to play in that.
But the points that that Ireally am trying to make in the
(36:03):
book about passion is, I'mtrying to counter the lie that
the past couple of generationshave been fed, which is that you
know that you're going to getpaid a lot of money to do what
you're passionate about, likethat. What sometimes that
happens, and that's wonderful,but that should not be our
expectation. And so what we haveis a lot of I see it all around
(36:27):
me as people refusing to takework that is not aligned with
their passions. And therefore,you know, floundering in many,
you know, ways, whereas we oftenhave to do work that we're not
passionate about, and then, butwe still can still pursue our
passions. You know, in otherparts of our lives, work should
(36:47):
not be our entire life. And thenthe other point that I make, the
which is supported by theresearch of Cal Newport, who
does a lot of research in thisarea, is he has found that
people end up becomingpassionate about the work that
they do when they've done itlong enough to become competent
at it and good at it, and thatthey actually one, one study
(37:11):
that he was several studies, butone study that I cite in the
book that he talks about is thelength of someone doing the job
correlated directly with theirpassion about it. The longer
they did the job, the morepassionate they became at it.
And it was not an exciting job.
It was like being a collegeadministrator assistant or
something. And so passion has apart to play in all of that, but
(37:33):
we live in a time when passionhas become sort of the be all
and end all of what we should doin our own measure of our
success. And I and no one shouldfeel that they are some kind of
a failure, because the job thatthey do is something that
they're not passionate about, orit wasn't, you know, they have a
passion elsewhere. I haveencountered that many times and
(37:55):
and one of the examples I citein the book is a is a young
millennial who had a job thatshe was passionate about, and
she just decided to leave itbecause she just she wanted her
work to be her work, and shewanted to pursue her passion on
the side, and that's alsoanother way of living a
fulfilling life of service toourselves and our neighbors.
Joshua Johnson (38:16):
Do you think evangelicals are more prone to
confusing passion with withcalling, I do other Christians.
Karen Swallow Prior (38:26):
I think that's become a kind of a tick
in contemporary evangelicalism.
You know, probably there arepeople who could do a good job
researching where that came fromand why that is, and there are
probably multiple reasons. Butwe've definitely become a
culture that measures ourrelationship with God by the
supposedly great things we doand the passion we have. You
(38:49):
know, be passionate for this andfor that. And the other point
that I make in my book is, youknow, some people are just even
keeled people who aren't likeburning with passion all the
time, and that's actually okay,like we need more even keeled
people in the world.
Joshua Johnson (39:06):
If I'm looking at the back of the book and all
and you're citing all the worksthat you've cited, there's a lot
of literature in here. Can youwhich is fantastic, and I love
that. So can you give me some?
Got an English prof, exactly.
It's amazing. So can you give mesome examples from literature
about how this works?
Karen Swallow Prior (39:27):
Yeah, so one of the poems that I include
is by one of my favorite poets,and one of my favorite poems the
17th Century Puritan or the 17thCentury Anglican cleric, George
Herbert. The poem that I includeis called the collar, and it
refers to the clerical collar.
He was a priest. And the wholepoem is him as a young priest
speaking to God, raging andraving before God because he
(39:51):
wants to get out of ministry,because he doesn't see any fruit
for his labor, and he's angry atGod. Because, you know, because
he's serving the Lord, notseeing fruit, and the Lord could
bring the fruit. And the wholepoem is him just yelling at God.
And the poem ends with, with Godanswering to him, my child. And
(40:12):
the spoke, poet says, My Lord.
And it's just, it's just abeautiful poem. He's it's a it's
submission to the Lord, but it'salso a picture of how the Lord
welcomes our our railing and ourquestions and our anxiety and
our frustration and still lovesus as His children. And that is
(40:37):
our ultimate calling is to beHis child.
Joshua Johnson (40:40):
And that's beautiful, and that's man, thank
you. Like, I want to be a childof God, and I want to get to
that place like I'm okay there,whatever I do and wherever I go
and Whatever befalls me in mylife, that I'm a child of God.
And I could say, Yes, Lord, whatis your hope for this book? You
(41:01):
have a calling. What do you hopethat people would get from this
and what it would give to theworld?
Karen Swallow Prior (41:05):
Well, I hope, again, I said that I don't
have, like, six steps or amagical formula for finding your
calling. So what I hope it doesis that it just opens up the
field, opens up the range ofpossibilities, because some
people are going to pursue theirpassion and get do good work and
get paid a lot to do it, andother people are not, and some
(41:26):
people are going to love theirjobs, and other people are not,
and some people are going to doone thing their whole, you know,
one main vocation, their wholelives. And others are going to
do a lot of things. But I wantpeople to see just the beauty
and variety and the truth andgoodness and the way that God
can use it all and will use itall, and that we don't need to
narrow our our options, but westill need to have realistic
(41:50):
expectations. I think that's agreat poison in our culture, is
that our our disappointments andanxieties come from unrealistic
expectations. And so we candream big and trust God to do to
he's the one who's going tobring the fruit. But we can also
(42:10):
just luxuriate in the everydayworld, in ordinary work, in life
with our among our neighbors andour family members. That is
where most of the truth,goodness and beauty in the world
is to be found, and that is whatwill draw us closer to God and
draw others to him as well.
Joshua Johnson (42:29):
That's beautiful. Thank you, Karen, can
you give us somerecommendations? Anything you've
been reading lately you couldrecommend?
Karen Swallow Prior (42:36):
Oh, my goodness. I um, well, I have a
lot of citations in the book. Alot of you know, again, a lot of
literature. I like to readliterature. So I'll give the
literature recommendations. Youalready mentioned these small
things. What is it called? Thesesmall things like these. I can
never remember the title,excellent book on my sub stack,
which you've already mentioned.
I am doing taking readersthrough a survey of British
(42:58):
literature. We begin with OldEnglish, go through Middle
English, and now we're in the17th century. We're just ending
the 17th century. So I thinklit, all of the classic
literature is wonderful to read.
I'm also posting on there somebooks that I cannot recommend,
which is a little fun thing tobooks that you know, that I that
I might not know you, so youmight not like it, but I liked
(43:19):
it. And so lots of lots ofliterature. And I hope you'll
read this book and follow allthe footnotes, because I cite a
lot of different kinds ofsources, work on works on
vocation. There are a lot outthere. I had to read most of
them to write this book, buthopefully mine will just give
you a little taste of the bestof all of them. And it's short
and sweet, so then you can go onand read great literature after
(43:42):
this.
Joshua Johnson (43:43):
Well, this book is short, it is sweet and it is
beautiful, and I love the waythat you you wrote this. It just
brings me into the world. And Ijust feel like I am enveloped
into this book. It just feelscozy and good. It just makes me
want to be a person that pursuestruth and goodness and beauty.
(44:05):
So be a better person in thisworld and that, you know, high
and lofty passion and callingmay not be the pursuit that I
want, but the pursuit of truthand goodness and beauty with
wherever I go. So well done.
This is a fantastic, fantasticbook. Highly recommend it to
everyone. If you have havepeople that are pursuing
calling, what does it look liketo live in this world and where
(44:28):
what they need? Give it out andbuy a bunch of copies for
friends. This is a fabulousgraduation gift for people as
well. There's all sorts ofthings. So this book should, for
many years, be handed out tomany people. So
Karen Swallow Prior (44:46):
and I will there are both generous bulk
discounts are available. So justcontact the publisher so you can
get a lot of copies. Cheap,excellent.
Joshua Johnson (44:53):
Where would you like to point people to you so
people could get it? How canpeople connect with you? Sub
Karen Swallow Prior (44:58):
stack is the best place. Case I my
newsletter is titled The Priory.
You can find me on, you know, onthe site, or sign up for my
emails. And I'm also, you know,I'm also, sadly, on x, which is
not very true, good andbeautiful, but I am there and
and Instagram. Instagram is alittle bit more beautiful, so I
like to share pictures of myflowers and my dogs and my runs
(45:19):
so
Joshua Johnson (45:23):
nice. And your library and my library,
Karen Swallow Prior (45:25):
yes, yes, yes, follow the journey of my
library, which is, it's been sohot I haven't been doing any
work on it, but it will continueas summer abates. Exactly.
Joshua Johnson (45:37):
Well, Karen, thank you for this conversation.
Thank you for bringing us intothe pursuit of truth and
goodness and beauty. What is ourtrue calling? That we have a
calling, we have vocation, thatwe could actually work with God,
that it is in relation to thecaller, to the person being
called. We are being called fromoutside of ourselves. And it's
not just about what we desire tothe things that are within us.
So we don't just find it withinus. We find it from outside of
(46:00):
us is beautiful. Thank you,Karen, thank you, Joshua. You.
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